QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 8 2007, 08:40 AM)
I think I described, without the mathematics, a similar process by which the concrete floors would've been crushed as a natural consequence of the collapse.
The terms "pancaking" and "bageling" are idealized notions of what might've happened if the building was empty and collapsed symmetrically, but in the actual situation, each floor had plenty of furniture, partitions, filing cabinets, desks, bookshelves, etc., each of which would've tended to concentrate the loads on both the falling upper floor(s) and the lower floor. Contact wouldn't have been "flat", but the falling floors would've been broken into random chunks by the nonuniform distribution of impact stresses, all of which would've been far beyond their design load. Fragmentation of all the concrete should be the expected result.
As each floor collapsed in-turn, this process would've been repeated and the resultant concrete fragments could only have fragmented further, each fracture resulting in some significant fraction of pulverization of the concrete chunks, both of the concrete below being impacted at random by the falling debris and the concrete of the floor below, so the chunks would've been made into smaller and smaller chunks and more and more dust as each floor gave way.
Continue this process for dozens of floors and you get a massive amount of concrete dust being ejected with the gale-force winds getting shot out in all directions as the 20 tons (approximately) of air is forced out of the way of the falling debris.
While the "ball-mill" process itself might be difficult to visualize, it's easy to see how a significant fraction of the concrete would've been turned to dust in this process of chunks getting broken into progressively smaller chunks plus dust, especially considering the fact that as the collapse progressed, the falling mass would be increasing floor-by-floor and accelerating floor-by-floor.
Your verbal narrative does not suffice. The obvious (?) way to attack this problem is to compute some kind of "cavity size distribution". This distribution would represent some kind of limiting set of values for which external forces (from the remainder of the rubble) could not exert forces within the cavities - thus bringing concrete comminution to a halt.
I suppose one could initially assume a Gaussian distribution for the distribution, subject to the constraint that cavity wall edges must sum to less than the sum of structural steel components, plus some contribution (lol calculating this) from non-structural building contents. Also, a constraint is that the final compacted size must match observations.
This is probably a very complicated problem, but I suspect that there is already a large body of literature on abstract versions the subject. Just yesterday I was looking at a math book on scaling, and I think that percolation was one of the areas addressed.
Seems to me searching on percolation is a good place to start.
QUOTE
There are 1000 more things they have done.
Seek professional help.
Metamars:
You suggest: "If we can get an accurate value of power output from the seismic record.....etc". Yes, I think this may be a good idea.... in theory.... But I am not sure it would work in practice. I believe less than 1 % of the PE stored in a tower was converted into seismic energy. Much more energy went into destroying the support structure and pulverizing the concrete, wallboard, etc. and was ultimately converted to heat. So, while the DURATION of the seismic signal is a useful characteristic of the collapse, I wonder if the amplitude variations give more than a crude measure of the energy dissipation associated with the collapse.
As for C&E's paper, I really am not sure what to say! I think you need to provide a more detailed discussion of the problems you see with our paper with respect to C&E's paper. We certainly did not intentionally ignore it anymore than we ignored Norman(?) Jones' work on impact and dynamic buckling. The intent of our paper was NOT to review all possible approaches to the WTC collapse problem, but to present one particular approach.
You suggest: "If we can get an accurate value of power output from the seismic record.....etc". Yes, I think this may be a good idea.... in theory.... But I am not sure it would work in practice. I believe less than 1 % of the PE stored in a tower was converted into seismic energy. Much more energy went into destroying the support structure and pulverizing the concrete, wallboard, etc. and was ultimately converted to heat. So, while the DURATION of the seismic signal is a useful characteristic of the collapse, I wonder if the amplitude variations give more than a crude measure of the energy dissipation associated with the collapse.
As for C&E's paper, I really am not sure what to say! I think you need to provide a more detailed discussion of the problems you see with our paper with respect to C&E's paper. We certainly did not intentionally ignore it anymore than we ignored Norman(?) Jones' work on impact and dynamic buckling. The intent of our paper was NOT to review all possible approaches to the WTC collapse problem, but to present one particular approach.
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jun 8 2007, 03:40 PM)
Much more energy went into destroying the support structure and pulverizing the concrete, wallboard, etc. and was ultimately converted to heat.
If this is true wouldn't much of the heat be dissipated into the atmosphere by the dust could?
If this is true wouldn't much of the heat be dissipated into the atmosphere by the dust could?
QUOTE
I think not, because they never mention the killing of Americans.
They did mention it.
Firebombing and sinking an American ship at the Guantanamo Bay American military base — reminiscent of the USS Maine incident at Havana in 1898, which started the Spanish-American War — or destroy American aircraft and blame it on Cuban forces. (The document's first suggestion regarding the sinking of a U.S. ship is to blow up a manned ship and hence would result in U.S. Navy members being killed, with a secondary suggestion of possibly using an unmanned ship and fake funerals instead.)
Journalist James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his April 24, 2001 book Body of Secrets thusly:
Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.
http*://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I think not, because they never mention the killing of Americans. |
They did mention it.
Firebombing and sinking an American ship at the Guantanamo Bay American military base — reminiscent of the USS Maine incident at Havana in 1898, which started the Spanish-American War — or destroy American aircraft and blame it on Cuban forces. (The document's first suggestion regarding the sinking of a U.S. ship is to blow up a manned ship and hence would result in U.S. Navy members being killed, with a secondary suggestion of possibly using an unmanned ship and fake funerals instead.)
Journalist James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his April 24, 2001 book Body of Secrets thusly:
Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.
http*://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
You really are delusional. Where do you find this stuff....
I find it in the NEWS. I dont care If you dont watch the news or you dont want to look it up. There was a guy that had a speech about drooping the population down to 1 billion i think it was, not to long ago (cant find the clip now). Heres some info about it.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/occul...guidestones.htm
http://www.rense.com/general64/pordc.htm
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/070507...population.html
http://infowars.com/articles/science/popul...lation_cull.htm
QUOTE
Wake me up when he posts something interesting.
What happened with uss liberty is quite interesting
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 8 2007, 01:05 PM)
Malmoesoldier
Yes, it was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk
Grumpy
I take that as a joke. Find out what damage that was made in the basement. And there was no jet fuel in the basement.
Yes, it was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk
Grumpy
I take that as a joke. Find out what damage that was made in the basement. And there was no jet fuel in the basement.
3bodyproblem:
Let’s say the gravitational collapse released 1 x 10^12 joules of energy and the mass of one tower was 500,000,000 kilograms. The heat capacities of materials such as iron, aluminum, calcium oxide, etc, are all about 0.5 kilojoules per kilogram. It follows that the average Delta(T) of the debris (dust cloud plus rubble pile) would have been only 4 degrees C. The heating that was seen was therefore mainly due to the CHEMICAL energy that was released.
Let’s say the gravitational collapse released 1 x 10^12 joules of energy and the mass of one tower was 500,000,000 kilograms. The heat capacities of materials such as iron, aluminum, calcium oxide, etc, are all about 0.5 kilojoules per kilogram. It follows that the average Delta(T) of the debris (dust cloud plus rubble pile) would have been only 4 degrees C. The heating that was seen was therefore mainly due to the CHEMICAL energy that was released.
QUOTE (Malmoesoldier+Jun 8 2007, 01:17 PM)
They did mention it.
NO, they didn't.
Just because some Troother Edited the WIKI article to make that claim does NOT make it true.
(Side note, WIKI has apparently become the CT'ers DREAM. They get to edit it to make it conform to their version of reality and then other CT'er nuts use this same BS as their "PROOF")
The ACTUAL DOCUMENT is here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
They go into great detail as to how they would FAKE casualties.
They do not mention killing anyone.
Arthur
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jun 8 2007, 06:54 PM)
3bodyproblem:
Let’s say the gravitational collapse released 1 x 10^12 joules of energy and the mass of one tower was 500,000,000 kilograms. The heat capacities of materials such as iron, aluminum, calcium oxide, etc, are all about 0.5 kilojoules per kilogram. It follows that the average Delta(T) of the debris (dust cloud plus rubble pile) would have been only 4 degrees C. The heating that was seen was therefore mainly due to the CHEMICAL energy that was released.
Ahh "ultimately" meaning afterwards, yes my mistake. I have not had a chance to look over the work that has been done on the chemical release of energy in the debris pile. It certainly warrants attention given the reports of extreme temperatures that persisted for months.
Do you have any particular links that are of interest?
Let’s say the gravitational collapse released 1 x 10^12 joules of energy and the mass of one tower was 500,000,000 kilograms. The heat capacities of materials such as iron, aluminum, calcium oxide, etc, are all about 0.5 kilojoules per kilogram. It follows that the average Delta(T) of the debris (dust cloud plus rubble pile) would have been only 4 degrees C. The heating that was seen was therefore mainly due to the CHEMICAL energy that was released.
Ahh "ultimately" meaning afterwards, yes my mistake. I have not had a chance to look over the work that has been done on the chemical release of energy in the debris pile. It certainly warrants attention given the reports of extreme temperatures that persisted for months.
Do you have any particular links that are of interest?
QUOTE
It certainly warrants attention given the reports of extreme temperatures that persisted for months.
It's worth noting that a foundry is something that allows combustion to take place while limiting the escape of the resultant heat.
A pile of concrete rubble that allows air in but prevents thermal energy from escaping would work.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 8 2007, 07:27 PM)
It's worth noting that a foundry is something that allows combustion to take place while limiting the escape of the resultant heat.
A pile of concrete rubble that allows air in but prevents thermal energy from escaping would work.
For certain. A crucible no doubt.
QUOTE (Daru+Jun 8 2007, 02:00 AM)
Richard Gage, AIA, Architect, a Berkeley, California-based designer of fireproofed steel-framed buildings, agree with me:
And about the fall time... it was about 12-15 sec... it is what one would expect if he take the air resistance in accont[sic].
Then he is wrong as well. The debris field maps made during the Ground Zero clean-up show that about half of the mass was the sub-basements and the closer to the footprint the deeper and higher.
I don't mean that the majority of the mass was actually in the footprint, just either in or close nearby.
Nope. The fall time for WTC 1 was 18 seconds from the Heath video. The fall time for WTC 2 was 15 seconds, from another video. This is much longer than just air resistance would provide.
For the first few seconds it is possible to determine the approximate building acceleration and hence resistance:
WTC 1: (2/3) g
WTC 2: (3/4) g
where g is the acceleration due to gravity alone.
And about the fall time... it was about 12-15 sec... it is what one would expect if he take the air resistance in accont[sic].
Then he is wrong as well. The debris field maps made during the Ground Zero clean-up show that about half of the mass was the sub-basements and the closer to the footprint the deeper and higher.
I don't mean that the majority of the mass was actually in the footprint, just either in or close nearby.
Nope. The fall time for WTC 1 was 18 seconds from the Heath video. The fall time for WTC 2 was 15 seconds, from another video. This is much longer than just air resistance would provide.
For the first few seconds it is possible to determine the approximate building acceleration and hence resistance:
WTC 1: (2/3) g
WTC 2: (3/4) g
where g is the acceleration due to gravity alone.
QUOTE (3bodyproblem+Jun 8 2007, 04:24 PM)
If this is true wouldn't much of the heat be dissipated into the atmosphere by the dust could?
Some of the dust was hot enough to crisp the paint on nearby cars. Possibly some caught fire.
Some of the dust was hot enough to crisp the paint on nearby cars. Possibly some caught fire.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 8 2007, 07:09 AM)
Consequently, we get an upper bound of .04GJ per floor, which is completely inconsistent with Greening's .6GJ.
Certainly, it's true of some critics (we'll assume they meant "free fall" considering wind resistance), but not true of Hoffman and myself, e.g.
Also, Greening and Benson should be aware that their mysterious "ball mill" process (inferred from gamma = 1) is not taken seriously, at least by laymen on this board.
1) Yes, I suspect the energy requirements for crush-up are less than for crush-down, but how did you obtain 0.04 GJ per story?
2) Propose an equation of motion and I'll check it as an alternate hypothesis to Bayesian factor against the crush-down equation, using NEU-FONZE's data.
3) I fail to understand what you are objecting to. The phrase ball mill or to the actual comminution itself?
Certainly, it's true of some critics (we'll assume they meant "free fall" considering wind resistance), but not true of Hoffman and myself, e.g.
Also, Greening and Benson should be aware that their mysterious "ball mill" process (inferred from gamma = 1) is not taken seriously, at least by laymen on this board.
1) Yes, I suspect the energy requirements for crush-up are less than for crush-down, but how did you obtain 0.04 GJ per story?
2) Propose an equation of motion and I'll check it as an alternate hypothesis to Bayesian factor against the crush-down equation, using NEU-FONZE's data.
3) I fail to understand what you are objecting to. The phrase ball mill or to the actual comminution itself?
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 8 2007, 09:49 PM)
Some of the dust was hot enough to crisp the paint on nearby cars. Possibly some caught fire.
I'm confused, is this being attributed to kinetic energy during the collapse, or chemical energy?
I'm confused, is this being attributed to kinetic energy during the collapse, or chemical energy?
QUOTE (3bodyproblem+Jun 8 2007, 11:50 PM)
I'm confused, is this being attributed to kinetic energy during the collapse, or chemical energy?
I don't know. It was only in some spots, since right next to these cars was uncrisped paper. Also, AFAIK, nobody had burns or even reported being hit by hot dust.
I don't know. It was only in some spots, since right next to these cars was uncrisped paper. Also, AFAIK, nobody had burns or even reported being hit by hot dust.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 8 2007, 07:16 PM)
NO, they didn't.
Just because some Troother Edited the WIKI article to make that claim does NOT make it true.
(Side note, WIKI has apparently become the CT'ers DREAM. They get to edit it to make it conform to their version of reality and then other CT'er nuts use this same BS as their "PROOF")
The ACTUAL DOCUMENT is here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
They go into great detail as to how they would FAKE casualties.
They do not mention killing anyone.
Arthur
They dont?
All these News papers disagrees with you
Abc news
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
The st. Petersburg times
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=6194
The moscow times
http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/.../11/01/120.html
Usa today
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-...n-bamford_x.htm
Globalresearch
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5782
Just because some Troother Edited the WIKI article to make that claim does NOT make it true.
(Side note, WIKI has apparently become the CT'ers DREAM. They get to edit it to make it conform to their version of reality and then other CT'er nuts use this same BS as their "PROOF")
The ACTUAL DOCUMENT is here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
They go into great detail as to how they would FAKE casualties.
They do not mention killing anyone.
Arthur
They dont?
All these News papers disagrees with you
Abc news
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
The st. Petersburg times
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=6194
The moscow times
http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/.../11/01/120.html
Usa today
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-...n-bamford_x.htm
Globalresearch
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5782
Many of the "burned-out" cars seen after 9/11 do not look like the results of conventional (hydrocarbon) fires but show obvious signs of CHEMICAL ATTACK.
I can think of many possible culprits....
I can think of many possible culprits....
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 8 2007, 11:00 PM)
1) Yes, I suspect the energy requirements for crush-up are less than for crush-down, but how did you obtain 0.04 GJ per story?
The ratio of seismic energy delivered to the ground from the collapsing WTC towers after "crush up" begins to that before "crush up" begins should be determinable from Diagram 6d) of BLGB.
Call the former Ecu, and the latter Ecd.
Ecu / Ecd ~ 3%, as per measurements I describe in my post.
Furthermore, Ecd > {E(plastic) + E(elastic)} * 84 floors, during "crush down" (or so I suspect). In other words, the energy spent in crushing 84 floors during crush down is less than the energy dissipated through the building, and into seismic activity, during this phase.
However, total KE is 10^^12J. With only 3% being dissipated during "crush down", and only 1/84th of this amount per floor, you end up with .4GJ as an upper bound of KE dissipated, per floor, in crushing that floor.
That is in reasonable agreement with .6GJ for the initial collapsed floors, but fails utterly with regard to lower floors. It fails in two way.
Firstly, Figure 6d) shows that seismic energy is relatively constant during "crush down". However, the columns got considerably stronger towards the base, and even considering them as only, say, 4x as strong, you now have a completely inconsistent figure.
Furthermore, the rate of floor crushings increases, by (very roughly) an order of magnitude.
I don't know how one does the Bayesian analysis you've spoken of, but I'm pretty sure if you did one and considered more than just collapse time, but also energy as I've spoken here, you will see how utterly improbable your model is. Being off by a factor of, say, 40x, will do that, you know.
This argument strongly hinges on my guess that the building transmits energy at a faster rate than it absorbs it via elastic and plastic deformation. I believe that this should be relatively easy to determine, at least for those with relevant expertise. I have already posted my remarks at stj911 forum, and will do so on ae911truth forum also, when I get access (which has been promised, even though I'm not a member). I will report what I find out, here (unless prohibited; the forums are private. I have already been told that the relationship is not simple, with details to follow.)
Should it turn out that Ecd < {E(plastic) + E(elastic)} * 84 floors, that would not be as damning as otherwise, but then the details become that much more important.
Even if this should turn out to be the case, I don't see how your model could survive the order of magnitude decrease in energy needed to crush a floor, as the collapse progresses towards the ground.
What might save your conclusion (though not your hypotheses, as currently presented), is considering dynamic effects that become more pronounced as impact velocities increase.
It seems to me you need to not only consider dynamic effects such as studied by Calladine and English, but even go beyond that to studying impacts leading to fractures. But that would beg the question as to the validity of the "homogenization" assumptions. Furthermore, I believe that, while that may improve the overall fit of such a corrected model to data, it will create more more problems for your model during the initial stages. (Recall my post about CE suggesting the plausibility of Gordon Ross's analysis.) But, of course, it's the earliest stages that are more critical.
I don't believe your model is salvageable in any form close to it's current version.
2) Propose an equation of motion and I'll check it as an alternate hypothesis to Bayesian factor against the crush-down equation, using NEU-FONZE's data.
I am too rusty to make a good go at that, though I hope I can cajole serious engineers at ae911truth.org to work on this, and possibly come up with one. However, from comments I've already made, such an equation of motion would have to allow a constant power sink. Perhaps the PE function would be something like (mg(h/84 * storey height)). ?? (h positive upwards).
I leave it to my betters to investigate this, though if they fail to do that, and I have time, I may work on this during the summer.
I am too rusty to make a good go at that, though I hope I can cajole serious engineers at ae911truth.org to work on this, and possibly come up with one. However, from comments I've already made, such an equation of motion would have to allow a constant power sink. Perhaps the PE function would be something like (mg(h/84 * storey height)). ?? (h positive upwards).
I leave it to my betters to investigate this, though if they fail to do that, and I have time, I may work on this during the summer.
3) I fail to understand what you are objecting to. The phrase ball mill or to the actual comminution itself?
I have, on a few occasions, complained about a lack of mechanism through which to accomplish concrete comminution. Greening has pointed out that use of High Explosives would also present problems of mechanism, as inefficiencies suggest many holes would need to be drilled thoughout the concrete.
Given a "choice" between 2 improbable mechanisms, I choose neither.
And no, the careless use of the term "ball mill" doesn't help things, at all. Can you imagine an engineering student trying to impress his professor via such a verbal analogy, alone?
If this problem was given the serious resources it deserves, alternatives such as thermobarics, which anectodally can solve the problem of mechanism, would be studied in the context of the WTC destruction.**
So, while the term "ball mill" is very objectionable, the unconvincing treatment of concrete comminution, wherein it is assumed that KE available within and near the WTC footprints has sufficient dynamic pathways to effect the comminution observed, is also objectionable.
* I'm assuming you do not add the energy for concrete comminution during "crush down", otherwise Greening's graph shows a too-long collapse time, at least for one of the buildings.
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
The ratio of seismic energy delivered to the ground from the collapsing WTC towers after "crush up" begins to that before "crush up" begins should be determinable from Diagram 6d) of BLGB.
Call the former Ecu, and the latter Ecd.
Ecu / Ecd ~ 3%, as per measurements I describe in my post.
Furthermore, Ecd > {E(plastic) + E(elastic)} * 84 floors, during "crush down" (or so I suspect). In other words, the energy spent in crushing 84 floors during crush down is less than the energy dissipated through the building, and into seismic activity, during this phase.
However, total KE is 10^^12J. With only 3% being dissipated during "crush down", and only 1/84th of this amount per floor, you end up with .4GJ as an upper bound of KE dissipated, per floor, in crushing that floor.
That is in reasonable agreement with .6GJ for the initial collapsed floors, but fails utterly with regard to lower floors. It fails in two way.
Firstly, Figure 6d) shows that seismic energy is relatively constant during "crush down". However, the columns got considerably stronger towards the base, and even considering them as only, say, 4x as strong, you now have a completely inconsistent figure.
Furthermore, the rate of floor crushings increases, by (very roughly) an order of magnitude.
I don't know how one does the Bayesian analysis you've spoken of, but I'm pretty sure if you did one and considered more than just collapse time, but also energy as I've spoken here, you will see how utterly improbable your model is. Being off by a factor of, say, 40x, will do that, you know.
This argument strongly hinges on my guess that the building transmits energy at a faster rate than it absorbs it via elastic and plastic deformation. I believe that this should be relatively easy to determine, at least for those with relevant expertise. I have already posted my remarks at stj911 forum, and will do so on ae911truth forum also, when I get access (which has been promised, even though I'm not a member). I will report what I find out, here (unless prohibited; the forums are private. I have already been told that the relationship is not simple, with details to follow.)
Should it turn out that Ecd < {E(plastic) + E(elastic)} * 84 floors, that would not be as damning as otherwise, but then the details become that much more important.
Even if this should turn out to be the case, I don't see how your model could survive the order of magnitude decrease in energy needed to crush a floor, as the collapse progresses towards the ground.
What might save your conclusion (though not your hypotheses, as currently presented), is considering dynamic effects that become more pronounced as impact velocities increase.
It seems to me you need to not only consider dynamic effects such as studied by Calladine and English, but even go beyond that to studying impacts leading to fractures. But that would beg the question as to the validity of the "homogenization" assumptions. Furthermore, I believe that, while that may improve the overall fit of such a corrected model to data, it will create more more problems for your model during the initial stages. (Recall my post about CE suggesting the plausibility of Gordon Ross's analysis.) But, of course, it's the earliest stages that are more critical.
I don't believe your model is salvageable in any form close to it's current version.
QUOTE
2) Propose an equation of motion and I'll check it as an alternate hypothesis to Bayesian factor against the crush-down equation, using NEU-FONZE's data.
I am too rusty to make a good go at that, though I hope I can cajole serious engineers at ae911truth.org to work on this, and possibly come up with one. However, from comments I've already made, such an equation of motion would have to allow a constant power sink. Perhaps the PE function would be something like (mg(h/84 * storey height)). ?? (h positive upwards).
I leave it to my betters to investigate this, though if they fail to do that, and I have time, I may work on this during the summer.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
2) Propose an equation of motion and I'll check it as an alternate hypothesis to Bayesian factor against the crush-down equation, using NEU-FONZE's data. |
I am too rusty to make a good go at that, though I hope I can cajole serious engineers at ae911truth.org to work on this, and possibly come up with one. However, from comments I've already made, such an equation of motion would have to allow a constant power sink. Perhaps the PE function would be something like (mg(h/84 * storey height)). ?? (h positive upwards).
I leave it to my betters to investigate this, though if they fail to do that, and I have time, I may work on this during the summer.
3) I fail to understand what you are objecting to. The phrase ball mill or to the actual comminution itself?
I have, on a few occasions, complained about a lack of mechanism through which to accomplish concrete comminution. Greening has pointed out that use of High Explosives would also present problems of mechanism, as inefficiencies suggest many holes would need to be drilled thoughout the concrete.
Given a "choice" between 2 improbable mechanisms, I choose neither.
And no, the careless use of the term "ball mill" doesn't help things, at all. Can you imagine an engineering student trying to impress his professor via such a verbal analogy, alone?
If this problem was given the serious resources it deserves, alternatives such as thermobarics, which anectodally can solve the problem of mechanism, would be studied in the context of the WTC destruction.**
So, while the term "ball mill" is very objectionable, the unconvincing treatment of concrete comminution, wherein it is assumed that KE available within and near the WTC footprints has sufficient dynamic pathways to effect the comminution observed, is also objectionable.
* I'm assuming you do not add the energy for concrete comminution during "crush down", otherwise Greening's graph shows a too-long collapse time, at least for one of the buildings.
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 01:24 AM)
The ratio of seismic energy delivered to the ground from the collapsing WTC towers after "crush up" begins to that before "crush up" begins should be determinable from Diagram 6d) of BLGB.
I don't know how one does the Bayesian analysis you've spoken of, but I'm pretty sure if you did one and considered more than just collapse time, but also energy as I've spoken here, ...
This argument strongly hinges on my guess ...
I have, on a few occasions, complained about a lack of mechanism through which to accomplish concrete comminution.
* I'm assuming you do not add the energy for concrete comminution during "crush down", otherwise Greening's graph shows a too-long collapse time, at least for one of the buildings.
I doubt that very much. One might be able to say something if appropriate spectral filtering was applied to the data for all three directions, but even then these two events are so different form what seismologists ordinarily study that the conclusions would be highly suspect.
Look at the Wikipedia page for Bayes factor. I use NEU-FONZE's data which provides for the first few seconds displacements (drops) of the tower tops are regular intervals. The collapse times do not enter at all. Using this data, I find the best fitting value for the energy consumed per story, as determined by the crush down equation.
Well, it seems to me that your guess is completely wrong. The way to check is for you to provide an equation for the drop z(t). Once I have that, I can see which is the better hypothesis (for the first few seconds) and how much better it is. Put in whatever you like. I'll stick with B & V's four simplifying assumptions.
Poster ceelliot suggested some comminution mechanisms just a few posts ago. I'll add that there was plenty of steel available to bang on the concrete. We do add some energy consumption for concrete comminution. Indeed, this stretches out the collapse time for WTC 1 to about 13 seconds for crush-down, which agrees with the Heath video (as I have mentioned several times).
I don't know how one does the Bayesian analysis you've spoken of, but I'm pretty sure if you did one and considered more than just collapse time, but also energy as I've spoken here, ...
This argument strongly hinges on my guess ...
I have, on a few occasions, complained about a lack of mechanism through which to accomplish concrete comminution.
* I'm assuming you do not add the energy for concrete comminution during "crush down", otherwise Greening's graph shows a too-long collapse time, at least for one of the buildings.
I doubt that very much. One might be able to say something if appropriate spectral filtering was applied to the data for all three directions, but even then these two events are so different form what seismologists ordinarily study that the conclusions would be highly suspect.
Look at the Wikipedia page for Bayes factor. I use NEU-FONZE's data which provides for the first few seconds displacements (drops) of the tower tops are regular intervals. The collapse times do not enter at all. Using this data, I find the best fitting value for the energy consumed per story, as determined by the crush down equation.
Well, it seems to me that your guess is completely wrong. The way to check is for you to provide an equation for the drop z(t). Once I have that, I can see which is the better hypothesis (for the first few seconds) and how much better it is. Put in whatever you like. I'll stick with B & V's four simplifying assumptions.
Poster ceelliot suggested some comminution mechanisms just a few posts ago. I'll add that there was plenty of steel available to bang on the concrete. We do add some energy consumption for concrete comminution. Indeed, this stretches out the collapse time for WTC 1 to about 13 seconds for crush-down, which agrees with the Heath video (as I have mentioned several times).
Bavid B. Benson,
Has the analysis of the Heat video soudtrack been posted somewhere?
Has the analysis of the Heat video soudtrack been posted somewhere?
The suggestion by some in the conspiracy cult is that the most powerful and accurate energy beam technology in the world is also bad enough to hit cars on the street. Only cars mind you because the buildings showed no signs of stray beam attack. The idea is absurd on it's face yet a few want to pursue this lack of logic.
QUOTE (Malmoesoldier+Jun 8 2007, 08:04 PM)
They dont?
All these News papers disagrees with you
Abc news
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
The st. Petersburg times
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=6194
The moscow times
http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/.../11/01/120.html
Usa today
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-...n-bamford_x.htm
Globalresearch
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5782
Don't matter that they disagree, that just means LIKE YOU, they are WRONG.
Which is why I posted the original document.
So for instance while ABC News says:
But the ACTUAL document makes it CLEAR that they were talking about FAKING the casualties.
But the ACTUAL document makes it CLEAR that they were talking about FAKING the casualties.
We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in Cuban waters. ... The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation
So instead of these SECOND HAND sources, simply point to the ORIGINAL document and show where they planned on killing anyone.
Arthur
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
Rumsfeld's comment wasn't intended as a scientific/technical description of thermobaric bombs' capabilities, and even if the comment were correct, you'd have to define what he meant by "take out a floor".
They aren't high explosives, they're large low-explosive charges, using fuel and air to create a blast wave capable of destroying soft targets, like personnel.
I've seen footage of thermobaric bombs detonating within a few feet of concrete, and the concrete remains intact, as one should expect from a fuel-air blast. You could certainly break large slabs of concrete into smaller slabs, but comminution would be limited to the dust created when the slabs grind against each other. Shattering concrete requires high explosive (if it's being done by explosives of any sort).
Otherwise, the "ball mill" notion is accurate, even if you have personal issues with the word "ball". (It isn't mean in the dirty sense here, just so you know. A "ball mill" is a means of grinding powder using heavy round weights that pound a coarse substance into a finer powder.)
Having heavy chunks of concrete colliding with smaller chunks of concrete, producing fine dust from the collisions, should be expected in the WTC collapse. What else would you expect the concrete chunks to do but collide and break up?
They certainly aren't going to stick together.
I agree, it's just CRAZY.
It's the fact that the WTC buildings fell as they did, instead of the way the cardboard buildings fall over in Godzilla movies, that's motivated 99% of the wackos out there (and here) that it must've been faked.
If it'd been contrived to "look real", they'd have screwed it up.
I agree, it's just CRAZY.
It's the fact that the WTC buildings fell as they did, instead of the way the cardboard buildings fall over in Godzilla movies, that's motivated 99% of the wackos out there (and here) that it must've been faked.
If it'd been contrived to "look real", they'd have screwed it up.
However, sand, or particulates of that size would not gain enough velocity during free fall to produce said effect.
Actually, if there's enough sand/dust in the air, the whole of the dust cloud descends as a whole, dragging the air along with it.
There would've been chemicals in the debris, too, of course. They had a lot of bathrooms in those buildings so you can expect they had a lot of harsh cleaners/disinfectants/drain cleaners in there, too.
I think the "pyroclastic flow" model applies. Lots of dust particles in an aerosol increasing the average density of the air, making it descend as a slow, high-volume sandblasting plume of grit.
But also, nothing is ever said about the walls pulling-in...
Seems Rummy forgot to mention the thermobaric column puller thingy. Maybe in his next admission of guilt.
I had written almost the identical thing in my prior post, but decided against including it at the last minute.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice that the "troothers" aren't providing any scenarios to go along with their dark innuendo, it'd be too easy to debunk each theory, leaving them nothing left to insinuate.
I'd also like to add to your list, asking them to make up their minds as to whether it was thermate or high-explosives or what? And when were the detonations supposed to have taken place?
The outer columns displayed buckling that increased monotonically from the time of the fire, and the top of the buildings likewise started tilting at the time of impact and increased their angle-rates up to the instant that the collapse, proper, started. So when did those blasts take place?
All these News papers disagrees with you
Abc news
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
The st. Petersburg times
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=6194
The moscow times
http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/.../11/01/120.html
Usa today
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-...n-bamford_x.htm
Globalresearch
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5782
Don't matter that they disagree, that just means LIKE YOU, they are WRONG.
Which is why I posted the original document.
So for instance while ABC News says:
QUOTE
America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."
But the ACTUAL document makes it CLEAR that they were talking about FAKING the casualties.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." |
But the ACTUAL document makes it CLEAR that they were talking about FAKING the casualties.
We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in Cuban waters. ... The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation
So instead of these SECOND HAND sources, simply point to the ORIGINAL document and show where they planned on killing anyone.
Arthur
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 9 2007, 01:56 AM)
Has the analysis of the Heat[sic] video soudtrack[sic] been posted somewhere?
Poster shagster developed the audio data. I earlier posted on this thread about what he found at the end of the audio portion. Summarizing, there is rumbling ending with a loud bang at 18 seconds after collapse initiation. Since Mr. Health was in West Street, the bang must be due to the large segment of the WTC 1 wall falling over into West Street. I estimate that this wall portion took about 5 seconds to fall over. It obviously begin to fall over by be pushed by the rapidly descending zone B going by (look at the aerial photographs of Ground Zero).
Hence crush-down was complete at about 13 seconds.
Poster shagster developed the audio data. I earlier posted on this thread about what he found at the end of the audio portion. Summarizing, there is rumbling ending with a loud bang at 18 seconds after collapse initiation. Since Mr. Health was in West Street, the bang must be due to the large segment of the WTC 1 wall falling over into West Street. I estimate that this wall portion took about 5 seconds to fall over. It obviously begin to fall over by be pushed by the rapidly descending zone B going by (look at the aerial photographs of Ground Zero).
Hence crush-down was complete at about 13 seconds.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 01:24 AM)
However, total KE is 10^^12J. With only 3% being dissipated during "crush down", and only 1/84th of this amount per floor, you end up with .4GJ as an upper bound of KE dissipated, per floor, in crushing that floor.
Yipes, some sloppy thinking on my part. .4GJ is more like an average of upper bounds.
Since you have to sum the floor collapse energies in such a way that they are (approximately) a linearly increasing function of time (during crush down), with approximations previously stated, if the last 10 floors had crush energies of only .04GJ, and the first crushed floor had a crush energy of .4GJ, when you sum with intermediate floors, you will obviously be short of energy.
I'm too tired to work this out, maybe this weekend. Hopefully everybody gets the idea. There is still no salvation for BLGB, absent a deeper analysis, but it'd be useful to get more accurate estimates.
It would be interesting if working this out shows the topmost floor dissipates .6GJ, instead of .4GJ.... Perhaps the BLGB model is good for one floor!
Yipes, some sloppy thinking on my part. .4GJ is more like an average of upper bounds.
Since you have to sum the floor collapse energies in such a way that they are (approximately) a linearly increasing function of time (during crush down), with approximations previously stated, if the last 10 floors had crush energies of only .04GJ, and the first crushed floor had a crush energy of .4GJ, when you sum with intermediate floors, you will obviously be short of energy.
I'm too tired to work this out, maybe this weekend. Hopefully everybody gets the idea. There is still no salvation for BLGB, absent a deeper analysis, but it'd be useful to get more accurate estimates.
It would be interesting if working this out shows the topmost floor dissipates .6GJ, instead of .4GJ.... Perhaps the BLGB model is good for one floor!
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 8 2007, 08:24 PM)
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
But that is just CRAZY.
Why would anyone do that just to convince LAYMEN about ANYTHING?
When DOING SO, would most assuredly leave actual SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that it had in fact been done???
Scientific Evidence that would MOST LIKELY be identified by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS.
Arthur
But that is just CRAZY.
Why would anyone do that just to convince LAYMEN about ANYTHING?
When DOING SO, would most assuredly leave actual SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that it had in fact been done???
Scientific Evidence that would MOST LIKELY be identified by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS.
Arthur
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 02:09 AM)
Yipes, some sloppy thinking on my part.
The whole approach seems sloppy to me. But then, is has been presented in such a way that I simply do not understand what you misconception is.
Obviously the energy consumed per story, call it E1(s), increases as the story number decreases. So, for example, E1(8) > E1(65). What's the problem?
The whole approach seems sloppy to me. But then, is has been presented in such a way that I simply do not understand what you misconception is.
Obviously the energy consumed per story, call it E1(s), increases as the story number decreases. So, for example, E1(8) > E1(65). What's the problem?
QUOTE
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
Rumsfeld's comment wasn't intended as a scientific/technical description of thermobaric bombs' capabilities, and even if the comment were correct, you'd have to define what he meant by "take out a floor".
They aren't high explosives, they're large low-explosive charges, using fuel and air to create a blast wave capable of destroying soft targets, like personnel.
I've seen footage of thermobaric bombs detonating within a few feet of concrete, and the concrete remains intact, as one should expect from a fuel-air blast. You could certainly break large slabs of concrete into smaller slabs, but comminution would be limited to the dust created when the slabs grind against each other. Shattering concrete requires high explosive (if it's being done by explosives of any sort).
Otherwise, the "ball mill" notion is accurate, even if you have personal issues with the word "ball". (It isn't mean in the dirty sense here, just so you know. A "ball mill" is a means of grinding powder using heavy round weights that pound a coarse substance into a finer powder.)
Having heavy chunks of concrete colliding with smaller chunks of concrete, producing fine dust from the collisions, should be expected in the WTC collapse. What else would you expect the concrete chunks to do but collide and break up?
They certainly aren't going to stick together.
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jun 9 2007, 01:23 AM)
Many of the "burned-out" cars seen after 9/11 do not look like the results of conventional (hydrocarbon) fires but show obvious signs of CHEMICAL ATTACK.
I can think of many possible culprits....
Curious. In the pictures I have seen there is something unusual I have observed. Having worked in a major manufacturing body shop, I am very familiar with car/minivan bodies before they are painted (I've seen tens of thousands). In many of the photos it appears that the paint has been stripped off, exposing the bare "treated" metal. (Vehicle bodies undergo a "bath" before being painted, it is part of the rust proofing process adopted by most vehicle manufacturers after 92-93') This does not appear to be as a result of fire. The effect is too uniform. I had always attributed it to "sand blasting", as the debris rained down on the vehicles. However, sand, or particulates of that size would not gain enough velocity during free fall to produce said effect. Nor would the final moments of the collapse have a sustained effect on sand sized particulates to produce this effect. There certainly is something to be said about a possible chemical nature of this effect. Without close up inspection of the metal however, there is little but speculation on my part.
I can think of many possible culprits....
Curious. In the pictures I have seen there is something unusual I have observed. Having worked in a major manufacturing body shop, I am very familiar with car/minivan bodies before they are painted (I've seen tens of thousands). In many of the photos it appears that the paint has been stripped off, exposing the bare "treated" metal. (Vehicle bodies undergo a "bath" before being painted, it is part of the rust proofing process adopted by most vehicle manufacturers after 92-93') This does not appear to be as a result of fire. The effect is too uniform. I had always attributed it to "sand blasting", as the debris rained down on the vehicles. However, sand, or particulates of that size would not gain enough velocity during free fall to produce said effect. Nor would the final moments of the collapse have a sustained effect on sand sized particulates to produce this effect. There certainly is something to be said about a possible chemical nature of this effect. Without close up inspection of the metal however, there is little but speculation on my part.
QUOTE
QUOTE (metamars @ Jun 8 2007, 08:24 PM)
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
But that is just CRAZY.
** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like.
But that is just CRAZY.
I agree, it's just CRAZY.
It's the fact that the WTC buildings fell as they did, instead of the way the cardboard buildings fall over in Godzilla movies, that's motivated 99% of the wackos out there (and here) that it must've been faked.
If it'd been contrived to "look real", they'd have screwed it up.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (metamars @ Jun 8 2007, 08:24 PM) ** Indeed, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, we can infer from the quote I recently posted that thermobarics can take out a floor at a time, which would be quite useful (applies sequentially) in a psyop which targets laymen's notions of what a gravity driven collapse could look like. But that is just CRAZY. |
I agree, it's just CRAZY.
It's the fact that the WTC buildings fell as they did, instead of the way the cardboard buildings fall over in Godzilla movies, that's motivated 99% of the wackos out there (and here) that it must've been faked.
If it'd been contrived to "look real", they'd have screwed it up.
However, sand, or particulates of that size would not gain enough velocity during free fall to produce said effect.
Actually, if there's enough sand/dust in the air, the whole of the dust cloud descends as a whole, dragging the air along with it.
There would've been chemicals in the debris, too, of course. They had a lot of bathrooms in those buildings so you can expect they had a lot of harsh cleaners/disinfectants/drain cleaners in there, too.
I think the "pyroclastic flow" model applies. Lots of dust particles in an aerosol increasing the average density of the air, making it descend as a slow, high-volume sandblasting plume of grit.
QUOTE (3bodyproblem+Jun 9 2007, 02:37 AM)
Nor would the final moments of the collapse have a sustained effect on sand sized particulates to produce this effect.
I hadn't considered sand blasting. This is a possibility given that the air was exiting at up to Mach 1.0. But if so, I would expect to see just the one side sand blasted. The few photos I have seen don't seem to be one-sided sand blasting.
I hadn't considered sand blasting. This is a possibility given that the air was exiting at up to Mach 1.0. But if so, I would expect to see just the one side sand blasted. The few photos I have seen don't seem to be one-sided sand blasting.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 02:13 AM)
But that is just CRAZY.
Why would anyone do that just to convince LAYMEN about ANYTHING?
When DOING SO, would most assuredly leave actual SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that it had in fact been done???
Scientific Evidence that would MOST LIKELY be identified by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS.
Arthur
Do tell us what this scientific evidence would be. I'd like to know. And how would you, know, anyway? Aren't these things classified?
Well, if not, don't forget to post hyperlinks.
Why would anyone do that just to convince LAYMEN about ANYTHING?
When DOING SO, would most assuredly leave actual SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that it had in fact been done???
Scientific Evidence that would MOST LIKELY be identified by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS.
Arthur
Do tell us what this scientific evidence would be. I'd like to know. And how would you, know, anyway? Aren't these things classified?
Well, if not, don't forget to post hyperlinks.
What's always left out of the conspiracy story is the size, amount and position of the explosive. What size is the device? Where was it placed and how many would it take? What would a thermobaric device look like that could take out a tower floor? one foot by one foot? One by two? Then where would they have to be? By the windows? By the core columns? Remember, it not only needs the power to collapse the building but also create these "special effects" the conspiracy story is based on. How do they hide them? How did they not go off during the airliner impact? All these messy little questions which seem to be evaded by the "truth" movement like a third rail. Of course there will be an excuse as to why they never spent a minute thinking about this. They should be called the excuse movement.
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 9 2007, 02:53 AM)
They should be called the excuse movement.
But also, nothing is ever said about the walls pulling-in...
But also, nothing is ever said about the walls pulling-in...
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 9 2007, 02:53 AM)
What's always left out of the conspiracy story is the size, amount and position of the explosive. What size is the device? Where was it placed and how many would it take? What would a thermobaric device look like that could take out a tower floor? one foot by one foot? One by two? Then where would they have to be? By the windows? By the core columns? Remember, it not only needs the power to collapse the building but also create these "special effects" the conspiracy story is based on. How do they hide them? How did they not go off during the airliner impact? All these messy little questions which seem to be evaded by the "truth" movement like a third rail. Of course there will be an excuse as to why they never spent a minute thinking about this. They should be called the excuse movement.
Well the important thing is to determine if explosives were used, not the exact minutiae of the process. That's where an independent investigation with subpoena power would come in.
In any case, Gordon Ross had a crack at it:
http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html
Well the important thing is to determine if explosives were used, not the exact minutiae of the process. That's where an independent investigation with subpoena power would come in.
In any case, Gordon Ross had a crack at it:
http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 9 2007, 02:56 AM)
But also, nothing is ever said about the walls pulling-in...
Seems Rummy forgot to mention the thermobaric column puller thingy. Maybe in his next admission of guilt.
QUOTE (lozenge124+Jun 9 2007, 03:02 AM)
Well the important thing is to determine if explosives were used, not the exact minutiae of the process. That's where an independent investigation with subpoena power would come in.
In any case, Gordon Ross had a crack at it:
http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html
Purely one sided minutiae. They are combing over the tiniest of details in the official reports to see what they can take out of context yet the conspiracy story is filled with gaping holes. Even Gordo's attempt is a joke. NONE of my questions are answered. It amounts to rationalization of evidence they can not ignore. Like the bowing of the columns.
In any case, Gordon Ross had a crack at it:
http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html
Purely one sided minutiae. They are combing over the tiniest of details in the official reports to see what they can take out of context yet the conspiracy story is filled with gaping holes. Even Gordo's attempt is a joke. NONE of my questions are answered. It amounts to rationalization of evidence they can not ignore. Like the bowing of the columns.
QUOTE
What's always left out of the conspiracy story is the size, amount and position of the explosive. What size is the device? Where was it placed and how many would it take?
I had written almost the identical thing in my prior post, but decided against including it at the last minute.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice that the "troothers" aren't providing any scenarios to go along with their dark innuendo, it'd be too easy to debunk each theory, leaving them nothing left to insinuate.
I'd also like to add to your list, asking them to make up their minds as to whether it was thermate or high-explosives or what? And when were the detonations supposed to have taken place?
The outer columns displayed buckling that increased monotonically from the time of the fire, and the top of the buildings likewise started tilting at the time of impact and increased their angle-rates up to the instant that the collapse, proper, started. So when did those blasts take place?
Oh Gordon does address the bowing.
Here is his lame attempt:
First he posts a FACT:
Here is his lame attempt:
First he posts a FACT:
QUOTE (Gordon Ross+)
Note that the bowing identified by Nist was only on one side of each tower. It was not generalised across all of the tower.
Then he tries to show NIST is somehow wrong about the bowing by creating his own strawman.
Stupid only goes so deep, but crazy's got no bottom.

This pictures is quite deceptive. Features of the antenna indicate that the green line (roof line) has been drawn about 2 floors too low. The lower red line was meant to indicate the initial failure point (on another frame) but it was drawn some 5 to 7 floors too low (assuming failure to have occured close to the 96th storey.) The collapse front could also be situated lower than the red line would seem to imply (this red line is just drawn to match the assumed initial failure zone marked on an accompanying picture, which was already drawn much too low). All in all, the two lower lines are meaningless.
Some amount of crush-up might have occurred in the early phase of the collapse (as Bazant and Verdure acknowledge and explain) but not nearly as much as the lines drawned on these pictures suggest.
Then he tries to show NIST is somehow wrong about the bowing by creating his own strawman.
QUOTE (Gordon Ross+)
If the bowing was being caused by a pure vertical movement of the upper core structure, that is with no tilt, the bowing would be present on all four sides.
No WONDER he quit posting on this forum.
Stupidity like that is PRICELESS though.
Arthur
No WONDER he quit posting on this forum.
Stupidity like that is PRICELESS though.
Arthur
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 8 2007, 09:51 PM)
Do tell us what this scientific evidence would be. I'd like to know. And how would you, know, anyway? Aren't these things classified?
Its very simple Metamars.
It either took a lot of explosives or it didn't take much at all.
If you claim it might not have taken much at all then you have to admit it might not of required ANY.
So it stands to reason if you BELIEVE that it was a CD you ALSO have to believe it took a LOT of explosives to do so.
So that equates to adding a LARGE OUTSIDE energy source and what's more you are adding an energy source that will create effects that would be quite different than a gravity driven collapse.
Since the amount of energy is large and the effects are different and you do it in THREE buildings (which you KNOW are going to be filmed during collapse) it is only LOGICAL to assume that SOMEONE you don't control (remember there were 40,000 people working on Ground Zero) or someone at BPAT or FEMA or NIST or the Corp of Engineers or the Fireman or one of the people from the Demolition teams or science teams that were there would FIND IRRIFUTABLE evidence that these explosives were used.
The RISK of your plot being exposed would simply be too high.
The GAIN (above the carnage from crashing the planes into the towers) would be to little.
Arthur
Its very simple Metamars.
It either took a lot of explosives or it didn't take much at all.
If you claim it might not have taken much at all then you have to admit it might not of required ANY.
So it stands to reason if you BELIEVE that it was a CD you ALSO have to believe it took a LOT of explosives to do so.
So that equates to adding a LARGE OUTSIDE energy source and what's more you are adding an energy source that will create effects that would be quite different than a gravity driven collapse.
Since the amount of energy is large and the effects are different and you do it in THREE buildings (which you KNOW are going to be filmed during collapse) it is only LOGICAL to assume that SOMEONE you don't control (remember there were 40,000 people working on Ground Zero) or someone at BPAT or FEMA or NIST or the Corp of Engineers or the Fireman or one of the people from the Demolition teams or science teams that were there would FIND IRRIFUTABLE evidence that these explosives were used.
The RISK of your plot being exposed would simply be too high.
The GAIN (above the carnage from crashing the planes into the towers) would be to little.
Arthur
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 9 2007, 02:48 AM)
I hadn't considered sand blasting. This is a possibility given that the air was exiting at up to Mach 1.0. But if so, I would expect to see just the one side sand blasted. The few photos I have seen don't seem to be one-sided sand blasting.
Not to me either, it looks like it came from above (in the pictures I have seen the fenders /doors appear stripped bare as well as the hood and roof). Again very hard to tell from pictures.
Not to me either, it looks like it came from above (in the pictures I have seen the fenders /doors appear stripped bare as well as the hood and roof). Again very hard to tell from pictures.
QUOTE
Stupidity like that is PRICELESS though.
Stupid only goes so deep, but crazy's got no bottom.
QUOTE (lozenge124+Jun 8 2007, 10:02 PM)
Well the important thing is to determine if explosives were used, not the exact minutiae of the process. That's where an independent investigation with subpoena power would come in.
Well in the US its pretty unlikely that you could put together a more independent group than NIST is already and NIST did have subpoena power.
This is just another Troofer Strawman.
There is NOT going to be another investigation on the collapse of the WTC towers.
Why?
Because NOBODY with the required background is calling for one.
NOBODY.
And this is YEARS after the NIST report was released.
YEARS
And this is after several other INDEPENDENT studies (Purdue/ARUP/Insurance companies) found NO EVIDENCE of CD.
NO EVIDENCE
NOTHING
NADA
ZIP
ZILCH
Which leaves us with the only people calling for an investigation are too incompetent in the field of structural engineering to realize they are incompetent.
Like Gordon.
Arthur
Well in the US its pretty unlikely that you could put together a more independent group than NIST is already and NIST did have subpoena power.
This is just another Troofer Strawman.
There is NOT going to be another investigation on the collapse of the WTC towers.
Why?
Because NOBODY with the required background is calling for one.
NOBODY.
And this is YEARS after the NIST report was released.
YEARS
And this is after several other INDEPENDENT studies (Purdue/ARUP/Insurance companies) found NO EVIDENCE of CD.
NO EVIDENCE
NOTHING
NADA
ZIP
ZILCH
Which leaves us with the only people calling for an investigation are too incompetent in the field of structural engineering to realize they are incompetent.
Like Gordon.
Arthur
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 9 2007, 02:53 AM)
What's always left out of the conspiracy story is the size, amount and position of the explosive.
"Spray on Semtec" pat. pending
"Spray on Semtec" pat. pending
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 9 2007, 02:06 AM)
Poster shagster developed the audio data. I earlier posted on this thread about what he found at the end of the audio portion. Summarizing, there is rumbling ending with a loud bang at 18 seconds after collapse initiation. Since Mr. Health was in West Street, the bang must be due to the large segment of the WTC 1 wall falling over into West Street. I estimate that this wall portion took about 5 seconds to fall over. It obviously begin to fall over by be pushed by the rapidly descending zone B going by (look at the aerial photographs of Ground Zero).
Hence crush-down was complete at about 13 seconds.
Very nice. Thank you.
Hence crush-down was complete at about 13 seconds.
Very nice. Thank you.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 8 2007, 08:13 PM)
Well in the US its pretty unlikely that you could put together a more independent group than NIST is already and NIST did have subpoena power.
Arthur
Has anyone noticed the OCT supporters have lost touch with reality.
DBB is still supporting the crush-down theory even though it has been shown Block B (top block)was pulverized because it is no longer connected to the foundation (similar to a what would be expected if a regular CD started at the top of a building and why is not normally done) :

No problem for the OCT, just ignore what everyone else can see with there own eyes and pretend the lines are in the wrong place.
Arthur
Has anyone noticed the OCT supporters have lost touch with reality.
DBB is still supporting the crush-down theory even though it has been shown Block B (top block)was pulverized because it is no longer connected to the foundation (similar to a what would be expected if a regular CD started at the top of a building and why is not normally done) :

No problem for the OCT, just ignore what everyone else can see with there own eyes and pretend the lines are in the wrong place.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 9 2007, 04:30 AM)

This pictures is quite deceptive. Features of the antenna indicate that the green line (roof line) has been drawn about 2 floors too low. The lower red line was meant to indicate the initial failure point (on another frame) but it was drawn some 5 to 7 floors too low (assuming failure to have occured close to the 96th storey.) The collapse front could also be situated lower than the red line would seem to imply (this red line is just drawn to match the assumed initial failure zone marked on an accompanying picture, which was already drawn much too low). All in all, the two lower lines are meaningless.
Some amount of crush-up might have occurred in the early phase of the collapse (as Bazant and Verdure acknowledge and explain) but not nearly as much as the lines drawned on these pictures suggest.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 8 2007, 09:10 PM)
This pictures is quite deceptive. Features of the antenna indicate that the green line has been drawn about 2 floors too low. The lower red line was meant to indicate the initial failure point (on another frame) but it was drawn some 5 to 7 floors too low (assuming failure to have occured close to the 96th storey.) The collapse front could also be situated lower than the red line would seem to imply (this red line is just drawn to match the assumed initial failure zone marked on an accompanying picture, which was already drawn much too low). All in all, the two lower lines are meaningless.
Some amount of crush-up might have occurred in the early phase of the collapse (as Bazant and Verdure acknowledge and explain) but not nearly as much as the lines drawned on these pictures suggest.
If you move the red line up several floors it only gets worse for the deaf, dumb and BLIND ('See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil')!
From the paper:
This is clearly not true, independent of were you try to move the lines.
It is almost as ridicules as the assumption that CD's have to accelerate at free-fall speed:
This is clearly not true, independent of were you try to move the lines.
It is almost as ridicules as the assumption that CD's have to accelerate at free-fall speed:
Company head Mark Loizeaux was recently interviewed by New Scientist:
"It has to be the right job in the first place, the right explosive, the right pattern of laying the charges, and sometimes, which sounds odd, the right repairs to bring it down as we want, so no one or no other structure is harmed. And by differentially controlling the velocity of failure in different parts of the structure, you can make it walk, you can make it spin, you can make it dance."
While you're drawing lines, how about drawing lines showing the angle of the upper portion relative to vertical, and plotting that angle versus time for both the towers.
Then, show me where on that plot the CD charges went off.
I also take issue with where the lines are drawn. It would appear that the lines are drawn based solely on the relative sizes of the debris clouds, not relative to the building itself. The picture and lines are a lot less convincing than you seem to think they are, I'm still having trouble seeing what the lines are supposed to represent, because they clearly don't represent anything specific that I can see, other than their having something to do with the clouds of dust/smoke.
Is it your position that the smoke/dust clouds represent the effects of explosives, or what? Those clouds didn't get there as quickly as they would've if they'd been driven by explosives, they were pumped out by the bellows action of the falling floors, which is very clear to see in the video of the collapse.
Squish-down/squirt-out.
If they'd been driven by explosives, all the bomb-sniffing dogs for 100 miles in all directions would've instantly "alerted" towards Manhattan.
The FBI doesn't own all bomb-sniffing dogs, you realize.
Or were the dogs in on the NWO conspiracy?
I also take issue with where the lines are drawn. It would appear that the lines are drawn based solely on the relative sizes of the debris clouds, not relative to the building itself. The picture and lines are a lot less convincing than you seem to think they are, I'm still having trouble seeing what the lines are supposed to represent, because they clearly don't represent anything specific that I can see, other than their having something to do with the clouds of dust/smoke.
You need to view the picture in context to measure the full scope of the deception.
http://911blogger.com/node/9154?page=4
Has anyone noticed the OCT supporters have lost touch with reality.
DBB is still supporting the crush-down theory even though it has been shown Block B (top block)was pulverized because it is no longer connected to the foundation (similar to a what would be expected if a regular CD started at the top of a building and why is not normally done) :

No problem for the OCT, just ignore what everyone else can see with there own eyes and pretend the lines are in the wrong place.
The bottom line is clearly false, since the plane crashed several floors higher.
Some amount of crush-up might have occurred in the early phase of the collapse (as Bazant and Verdure acknowledge and explain) but not nearly as much as the lines drawned on these pictures suggest.
If you move the red line up several floors it only gets worse for the deaf, dumb and BLIND ('See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil')!
From the paper:
QUOTE
Differential Equation of Progressive Collapse
The gravity-driven progressive collapse of a tower must consist of two phases—the crush-down, followed by crush-up (Fig. 1 bottom), each of which is governed by a different differential equation. During the crush-down phase, the moving upper part of tower (C in Fig. 1 bottom), with a compacted layer of debris at its bottom (zone B ), is crushing the lower part (zone A) with little damage to itself, except before a thick enough layer B of debris forms [5]).
The gravity-driven progressive collapse of a tower must consist of two phases—the crush-down, followed by crush-up (Fig. 1 bottom), each of which is governed by a different differential equation. During the crush-down phase, the moving upper part of tower (C in Fig. 1 bottom), with a compacted layer of debris at its bottom (zone B ), is crushing the lower part (zone A) with little damage to itself, except before a thick enough layer B of debris forms [5]).
This is clearly not true, independent of were you try to move the lines.
It is almost as ridicules as the assumption that CD's have to accelerate at free-fall speed:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Differential Equation of Progressive Collapse The gravity-driven progressive collapse of a tower must consist of two phases—the crush-down, followed by crush-up (Fig. 1 bottom), each of which is governed by a different differential equation. During the crush-down phase, the moving upper part of tower (C in Fig. 1 bottom), with a compacted layer of debris at its bottom (zone B ), is crushing the lower part (zone A) with little damage to itself, except before a thick enough layer B of debris forms [5]). |
This is clearly not true, independent of were you try to move the lines.
It is almost as ridicules as the assumption that CD's have to accelerate at free-fall speed:
Company head Mark Loizeaux was recently interviewed by New Scientist:
"It has to be the right job in the first place, the right explosive, the right pattern of laying the charges, and sometimes, which sounds odd, the right repairs to bring it down as we want, so no one or no other structure is harmed. And by differentially controlling the velocity of failure in different parts of the structure, you can make it walk, you can make it spin, you can make it dance."
QUOTE
just ignore what everyone else can see with there own eyes and pretend the lines are in the wrong place.
While you're drawing lines, how about drawing lines showing the angle of the upper portion relative to vertical, and plotting that angle versus time for both the towers.
Then, show me where on that plot the CD charges went off.
I also take issue with where the lines are drawn. It would appear that the lines are drawn based solely on the relative sizes of the debris clouds, not relative to the building itself. The picture and lines are a lot less convincing than you seem to think they are, I'm still having trouble seeing what the lines are supposed to represent, because they clearly don't represent anything specific that I can see, other than their having something to do with the clouds of dust/smoke.
Is it your position that the smoke/dust clouds represent the effects of explosives, or what? Those clouds didn't get there as quickly as they would've if they'd been driven by explosives, they were pumped out by the bellows action of the falling floors, which is very clear to see in the video of the collapse.
Squish-down/squirt-out.
If they'd been driven by explosives, all the bomb-sniffing dogs for 100 miles in all directions would've instantly "alerted" towards Manhattan.
The FBI doesn't own all bomb-sniffing dogs, you realize.
Or were the dogs in on the NWO conspiracy?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 9 2007, 06:23 AM)
If you move the red line up several floors it only gets worse for the deaf, dumb and BLIND ('See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil')!
It only makes things worse if you falsely interpret it to represent the current position of the collapse front. It does not. It is rather meant to represent the initial position of the collapse front (the failure zone). So, if you move this up, it indicates that the collapse front has moved much more that the red and green line deceptively makes it appear.
The comparison that the picture entices the viewer to make (and that you've seemed to make) is a comparison between, on the one hand, the initial separation of the two red lines (the purported height of the upper block) and, on the other hand, the current height of the upper block, which would be the distance between the green line and... what?... certainly not the lower red line.
So the lower red line fools you into thinking that the upper block was initially much thicker than it actually was. If you draw the green line two floors higher than it has been drawn, as you should, and then draw a second green line below the lower red line, you get the current boundaries of the falling block. This then would much more closely match the (correct) initial thickness of the upper block. It would show, at the same time, that the collapse front has travelled roughly the same distance as the roof-line.
It only makes things worse if you falsely interpret it to represent the current position of the collapse front. It does not. It is rather meant to represent the initial position of the collapse front (the failure zone). So, if you move this up, it indicates that the collapse front has moved much more that the red and green line deceptively makes it appear.
The comparison that the picture entices the viewer to make (and that you've seemed to make) is a comparison between, on the one hand, the initial separation of the two red lines (the purported height of the upper block) and, on the other hand, the current height of the upper block, which would be the distance between the green line and... what?... certainly not the lower red line.
So the lower red line fools you into thinking that the upper block was initially much thicker than it actually was. If you draw the green line two floors higher than it has been drawn, as you should, and then draw a second green line below the lower red line, you get the current boundaries of the falling block. This then would much more closely match the (correct) initial thickness of the upper block. It would show, at the same time, that the collapse front has travelled roughly the same distance as the roof-line.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 9 2007, 06:23 AM)
From the paper:
You emphasized one segment of the sentence. Did you not notice the caveat that immediately follows: "[...]except before a thick enough layer B of debris forms" ? IOW, except in the very beginning of the collapse?
QUOTE
During the crush-down phase, the moving upper part of tower (C in Fig. 1 bottom), with a compacted layer of debris at its bottom (zone B ), is crushing the lower part (zone A) with little damage to itself, except before a thick enough layer B of debris forms [5]).
You emphasized one segment of the sentence. Did you not notice the caveat that immediately follows: "[...]except before a thick enough layer B of debris forms" ? IOW, except in the very beginning of the collapse?
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 9 2007, 07:08 AM)
It only makes things worse if you falsely interpret it to represent the current position of the collapse front. It does not. It is rather meant to represent the initial position of the collapse front (the failure zone). So, if you move this up, it indicates that the collapse front has moved much more that the red and green line deceptively makes it appear.
The comparison that the picture entices the viewer to make (and that you've seemed to make) is a comparison between, on the one hand, the initial separation of the two red lines (the purported height of the upper block) and, on the other hand, the current height of the upper block, which would be the distance between the green line and... what?... certainly not the lower red line.
So the lower red line fools you into thinking that the upper block was initially much thicker than it actually was. If you draw the green line two floors higher than it has been drawn, as you should, and then draw a second green line below the lower red line, you get the current boundaries of the falling block. This then would much more closely match the (correct) initial thickness of the upper block. It would show, at the same time, that the collapse front has travelled roughly the same distance as the roof-line.
claptrap.
his drawings are fine.
The comparison that the picture entices the viewer to make (and that you've seemed to make) is a comparison between, on the one hand, the initial separation of the two red lines (the purported height of the upper block) and, on the other hand, the current height of the upper block, which would be the distance between the green line and... what?... certainly not the lower red line.
So the lower red line fools you into thinking that the upper block was initially much thicker than it actually was. If you draw the green line two floors higher than it has been drawn, as you should, and then draw a second green line below the lower red line, you get the current boundaries of the falling block. This then would much more closely match the (correct) initial thickness of the upper block. It would show, at the same time, that the collapse front has travelled roughly the same distance as the roof-line.
claptrap.
his drawings are fine.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 9 2007, 06:58 AM)
I also take issue with where the lines are drawn. It would appear that the lines are drawn based solely on the relative sizes of the debris clouds, not relative to the building itself. The picture and lines are a lot less convincing than you seem to think they are, I'm still having trouble seeing what the lines are supposed to represent, because they clearly don't represent anything specific that I can see, other than their having something to do with the clouds of dust/smoke.
You need to view the picture in context to measure the full scope of the deception.
http://911blogger.com/node/9154?page=4
QUOTE (newton+Jun 9 2007, 07:17 AM)
claptrap.
his drawings are fine.
Well, if the lines are correctly drawn then what's wrong with my explanations? Can you defend an interpretation of the lines that support the claim that much crush-up has occurred (more that two stories, say)?
his drawings are fine.
Well, if the lines are correctly drawn then what's wrong with my explanations? Can you defend an interpretation of the lines that support the claim that much crush-up has occurred (more that two stories, say)?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 9 2007, 04:30 AM)
Has anyone noticed the OCT supporters have lost touch with reality.
DBB is still supporting the crush-down theory even though it has been shown Block B (top block)was pulverized because it is no longer connected to the foundation (similar to a what would be expected if a regular CD started at the top of a building and why is not normally done) :

No problem for the OCT, just ignore what everyone else can see with there own eyes and pretend the lines are in the wrong place.
The bottom line is clearly false, since the plane crashed several floors higher.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 9 2007, 01:50 AM)
I doubt that very much. One might be able to say something if appropriate spectral filtering was applied to the data for all three directions, but even then these two events are so different form what seismologists ordinarily study that the conclusions would be highly suspect.
I don't. Seismologists are well acquainted with various types of waves. Furthermore, their models are sophisticated enough so as to, e.g., be able to predict velocity of uplift during a simulated quake. *(No, I have no idea how well tested such models are.) Why should they not be able to do the 'opposite' (so to speak)?
In any event, I'd defer to the seismologists on this question.
Look at the Wikipedia page for Bayes factor. I use NEU-FONZE's data which provides for the first few seconds displacements (drops) of the tower tops are regular intervals. The collapse times do not enter at all. Using this data, I find the best fitting value for the energy consumed per story, as determined by the crush down equation.
Which seems to impress you quite a bit. The thrust of my recent posts are, "how can one put your model to the test?". You are also impressed that your model has been, to use your phrase, 'tested', twice.
One would think you'd be eager to test it a little more.
And speaking of your model, how does it distinguish between energy dissipated in crushing a floor, vs. energy 'leaking' through the building, into the ground. Oh, that's right - Bazant and Verdure assume that energy is only dissipated at the crushing front. The seismic record says otherwise. Caladine and English say otherwise. Commons sense says otherwise.
Of course, the real question is, "Is this a good enough approximation?" Shall we assume that quantifying how much this false assumption affects your results is a project for the future?
It wouldn't surprise me if neither Bazant, Lee, Greening or Benson are interested in determining how valid their results might be when more realistic assumptions about energy loss through seismic disturbance is factored in. After all, none of you seems terribly interested in energy losses away from the crushing front, due to dynamic effects ala Caladine and English. But this is 'closer' to the crushing front than the bedrock, and understanding these effects are probably easier.
To tell you the truth, even I wasn't terribly interested in this subject, being happy enough to assume that the bedrock that the WTC buildings rested on could be well approximated as perfectly rigid. However, thanks to BLGB's Figure 6d), I now think that this could be a huge oversight.
Also, it might explain how what you think is merely crushing energy per floor can decrease as "crush down" progresses. If energy dissipation via seismic leakage dominates losses via elastic and plastic deformation, and if the ability of the bedrock to aborb energy constitutes, in some sense, a reservior of energy absorbing capacity (by analogy, think of a thermal reservoir), then a constant (wrt time) dissipation of Kinetic Energy is less surprising. The losses due to elastic and plastic deformation would merely constitute corrections.
In thinking about the above, I noticed that I have been conflating seismic energy, which radiates out from ground zero, with deformation of the bedrock. However, the bedrock is not perfctly elastic..... Geez, this is getting complicated... In any event, even if you, personally, are not interested in nailing down an alternative way to test your own theory, others are.
Which seems to impress you quite a bit. The thrust of my recent posts are, "how can one put your model to the test?". You are also impressed that your model has been, to use your phrase, 'tested', twice.
One would think you'd be eager to test it a little more.
And speaking of your model, how does it distinguish between energy dissipated in crushing a floor, vs. energy 'leaking' through the building, into the ground. Oh, that's right - Bazant and Verdure assume that energy is only dissipated at the crushing front. The seismic record says otherwise. Caladine and English say otherwise. Commons sense says otherwise.
Of course, the real question is, "Is this a good enough approximation?" Shall we assume that quantifying how much this false assumption affects your results is a project for the future?
It wouldn't surprise me if neither Bazant, Lee, Greening or Benson are interested in determining how valid their results might be when more realistic assumptions about energy loss through seismic disturbance is factored in. After all, none of you seems terribly interested in energy losses away from the crushing front, due to dynamic effects ala Caladine and English. But this is 'closer' to the crushing front than the bedrock, and understanding these effects are probably easier.
To tell you the truth, even I wasn't terribly interested in this subject, being happy enough to assume that the bedrock that the WTC buildings rested on could be well approximated as perfectly rigid. However, thanks to BLGB's Figure 6d), I now think that this could be a huge oversight.
Also, it might explain how what you think is merely crushing energy per floor can decrease as "crush down" progresses. If energy dissipation via seismic leakage dominates losses via elastic and plastic deformation, and if the ability of the bedrock to aborb energy constitutes, in some sense, a reservior of energy absorbing capacity (by analogy, think of a thermal reservoir), then a constant (wrt time) dissipation of Kinetic Energy is less surprising. The losses due to elastic and plastic deformation would merely constitute corrections.
In thinking about the above, I noticed that I have been conflating seismic energy, which radiates out from ground zero, with deformation of the bedrock. However, the bedrock is not perfctly elastic..... Geez, this is getting complicated... In any event, even if you, personally, are not interested in nailing down an alternative way to test your own theory, others are.
Well, it seems to me that your guess is completely wrong. The way to check is for you to provide an equation for the drop d(t). Once I have that, I can see which is the better hypothesis (for the first few seconds) and how much better it is. Put in whatever you like. I'll stick with B & V's four simplifying assumptions.
Your 'tests' are prisoners of your model. If a viable means with which to estimate energy dissipation via seismic perturbations are determined, and insurmountable contradictions with your estimations result, it will only be an act of faith that could compel you to stick with your model as is, rather than improve it or abandon it.
Poster ceelliot suggested some comminution mechanisms just a few posts ago. I'll add that there was plenty of steel available to bang on the concrete. We do add some energy consumption for concrete comminution. Indeed, this stretches out the collapse time for WTC 1 to about 13 seconds for crush-down, which agrees with the Heath video (as I have mentioned several times).
His narrative hardly constitutes the sort of mathematical/physical analysis I am looking for.
* see, e.g., http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2000/ofr-00-0339/
Rumsfeld's comment wasn't intended as a scientific/technical description of thermobaric bombs' capabilities, and even if the comment were correct, you'd have to define what he meant by "take out a floor".
They aren't high explosives, they're large low-explosive charges, using fuel and air to create a blast wave capable of destroying soft targets, like personnel.
from wikipedia:
Fuel-air explosives disperse an aerosol cloud of fuel which is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. The main destructive force of FAE is high pressure. More importantly, the duration of the overpressure gives it an edge over conventional explosives and makes fuel-air explosives useful against hard targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.
(emphasis mine)
I have not the slightest doubt that data exists showing the effects of a number of thermobarics against concrete. The US military is not known for being under-funded, and bunkers are, AFAIK, typically made of concrete.
I don't have such data, but if you do, please share.
Meanwhile, if you have $32 you don't mind losing, you can order " Influence of thermobaric treatment on the structure and hardness of polycrystalline BNsph obtained in shock waves" at http://www.springerlink.com/content/vt4664h73p11365k/, and begin a whole new journey into the effects of thermobaric shock waves on materials.
(emphasis mine)
I have not the slightest doubt that data exists showing the effects of a number of thermobarics against concrete. The US military is not known for being under-funded, and bunkers are, AFAIK, typically made of concrete.
I don't have such data, but if you do, please share.
Meanwhile, if you have $32 you don't mind losing, you can order " Influence of thermobaric treatment on the structure and hardness of polycrystalline BNsph obtained in shock waves" at http://www.springerlink.com/content/vt4664h73p11365k/, and begin a whole new journey into the effects of thermobaric shock waves on materials.
I've seen footage of thermobaric bombs detonating within a few feet of concrete, and the concrete remains intact, as one should expect from a fuel-air blast.
Some more details would be nice. You're not assuming, are you, that all thermobarics are the same? They most certainly are not.
You could certainly break large slabs of concrete into smaller slabs, but comminution would be limited to the dust created when the slabs grind against each other. Shattering concrete requires high explosive (if it's being done by explosives of any sort).
And your proof of this is what, exactly? More to the point, what is your proof that shattering concrete cannot be done by thermobarics with lower peak pressures but greater impulse and 'accessibility' The fact that you saw 1 example of a thermobaric fail to do so?
And your proof of this is what, exactly? More to the point, what is your proof that shattering concrete cannot be done by thermobarics with lower peak pressures but greater impulse and 'accessibility' The fact that you saw 1 example of a thermobaric fail to do so?
Otherwise, the "ball mill" notion is accurate, even if you have personal issues with the word "ball". (It isn't mean in the dirty sense here, just so you know. A "ball mill" is a means of grinding powder using heavy round weights that pound a coarse substance into a finer powder.)
Having heavy chunks of concrete colliding with smaller chunks of concrete, producing fine dust from the collisions, should be expected in the WTC collapse. What else would you expect the concrete chunks to do but collide and break up?
They certainly aren't going to stick together.
By presenting this as an either/or proposition, you are obscuring the issue. The concrete partlce sizes would be expected to display a distribution of sizes. It is matching the details of the particle size distribution with a credible cavity size distribution within the compacted rubble that is missing. If you put an egg inside of a steel safe, and then banged on the safe with a bat, the egg would not crack. Would an egg-sized piece of concrete crack? Of course, it wouldn't.
AFAIK, nobody has done any siginificant work on this.
What cavity sizes are you talking about? The concrete would've been crushed/pulverized during the break-up and collisions of the floors on the way down.
I recognize that my narrative style may not be aesthetically pleasing to someone who's looking to put equations on everything, but one of my own special interests is innumerability, how some situations simply don't lend themselves to numerical analysis. I'll match my narrative's accuracy to the accuracy of any mathematical model you attempt to cram the real events into. A realistic narrative is the basis of understanding, sometimes you can apply math to that foundation and crunch meaningful numbers, but the problem I've seen with the models to-date is that they've sought mathematical purity over realism and tend to ignore the phenomena that aren't described by their math.
I'm not looking to pick a fight over this, models have their place, but I'm just saying that a realistic narrative that provides insight into the various mechanisms of the collapse is worth at least as much as a differential equation that matches the time of collapse.
Solving for E1, for instance, doesn't provide insight into what it would've looked like when the ceiling collapsed. A lot of different things could result in a specific value of E1. If you want to understand the phenomenology of the collapse, you'll need more than values for terms to plug into differential equations.
Every model is based on assumptions, and if you start off with the wrong assumptions, the math isn't going to provide much insight however elegant it may be.
So, what sort of "cavity size" are you talking about, and what would that have to do with the concrete chunks getting pulverized by each other as they collide a thousand times on the way down?
As for the fuel-air munitions, the effect of an explosive on an object is pretty well understood (at least by me). I had the occasion to study effects of explosives in my first job out of engineering school, working for a company that perforates oil wells (among other things). It isn't that difficult a concept, if the overpressure on-set is slower than the speed of sound in the material, then the material will distribute the forces throughout its structure. If the overpressure-onset is greater than the speed of sound in the material, then the effects of the overpressure are localized to the blast region. (Please excuse the lack of differential equations in that explanation.) The difference between high explosives and low explosives is the speed at which they release their energy. High explosives go off faster than low explosives. Good luck trying to damage steel with gunpowder, or pulverizing concrete with a hyperbaric munition.
Regardless of whatever hyperbole some journalist has written about fuel-air bombs, the damage they generate isn't the sort that would pulverize concrete directly, but by creating a large enough volume of high pressure, they are capable of crushing a target. I suspect that when whoever said they're useful against bunkers, he meant that a hyperbaric warhead could be mated to a bunker-penetrator and detonated within the bunker to destroy it from the inside. Minefields aren't destroyed by blowing the mines apart, they're destroyed by triggering the mines, which generally have pressure-sensitive fuses. It's just an effective means of generating overpressure spread over a large area, so that's the mechanism that destroys the targets. Push hard enough on a wall, it'll fall over.
The mechanism of forces on materials is worth understanding, as it applies directly to your theory about energy getting coupled to the ground. As I pointed out earlier, many of the descriptions of witnesses withing the buildings said that they'd feel a jolt then hear a rumble and/or the building would start swaying under their feet, and I said that's exactly what happens in an earthquake - P-waves arrive first (which are sudden jolts) and S-waves (shaking/swaying) follow, and the difference between their arrival times is associated with how far away the epicenter of the quake was.
In this instance, the towers were stiffer in compression than they were transversely, so shocks went straight through the steel at 20,000fps, from the top down to the bedrock faster than a human could perceive, but transverse waves took longer to propagate through the building. The maximum amount of force that could be transmitted to the bedrock is determined by the strength of the structure, as when the structure is subjected to local stresses that exceed the structure's ultimate strength, that's when the structure fails and the excess energy goes into breaking and bending stuff right there, including concrete.
It's the same phenomenon associated with what happens to a material subjected to overpressure from an explosive, but in the material sense, the ultimate strength of the material is due to the spacing and strength of the molecular bonds in the material, where in the WTC towers, those bonds' strengths are determined by the structural design.
I don't. Seismologists are well acquainted with various types of waves. Furthermore, their models are sophisticated enough so as to, e.g., be able to predict velocity of uplift during a simulated quake. *(No, I have no idea how well tested such models are.) Why should they not be able to do the 'opposite' (so to speak)?
In any event, I'd defer to the seismologists on this question.
QUOTE
Look at the Wikipedia page for Bayes factor. I use NEU-FONZE's data which provides for the first few seconds displacements (drops) of the tower tops are regular intervals. The collapse times do not enter at all. Using this data, I find the best fitting value for the energy consumed per story, as determined by the crush down equation.
Which seems to impress you quite a bit. The thrust of my recent posts are, "how can one put your model to the test?". You are also impressed that your model has been, to use your phrase, 'tested', twice.
One would think you'd be eager to test it a little more.
And speaking of your model, how does it distinguish between energy dissipated in crushing a floor, vs. energy 'leaking' through the building, into the ground. Oh, that's right - Bazant and Verdure assume that energy is only dissipated at the crushing front. The seismic record says otherwise. Caladine and English say otherwise. Commons sense says otherwise.
Of course, the real question is, "Is this a good enough approximation?" Shall we assume that quantifying how much this false assumption affects your results is a project for the future?
It wouldn't surprise me if neither Bazant, Lee, Greening or Benson are interested in determining how valid their results might be when more realistic assumptions about energy loss through seismic disturbance is factored in. After all, none of you seems terribly interested in energy losses away from the crushing front, due to dynamic effects ala Caladine and English. But this is 'closer' to the crushing front than the bedrock, and understanding these effects are probably easier.
To tell you the truth, even I wasn't terribly interested in this subject, being happy enough to assume that the bedrock that the WTC buildings rested on could be well approximated as perfectly rigid. However, thanks to BLGB's Figure 6d), I now think that this could be a huge oversight.
Also, it might explain how what you think is merely crushing energy per floor can decrease as "crush down" progresses. If energy dissipation via seismic leakage dominates losses via elastic and plastic deformation, and if the ability of the bedrock to aborb energy constitutes, in some sense, a reservior of energy absorbing capacity (by analogy, think of a thermal reservoir), then a constant (wrt time) dissipation of Kinetic Energy is less surprising. The losses due to elastic and plastic deformation would merely constitute corrections.
In thinking about the above, I noticed that I have been conflating seismic energy, which radiates out from ground zero, with deformation of the bedrock. However, the bedrock is not perfctly elastic..... Geez, this is getting complicated... In any event, even if you, personally, are not interested in nailing down an alternative way to test your own theory, others are.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
Look at the Wikipedia page for Bayes factor. I use NEU-FONZE's data which provides for the first few seconds displacements (drops) of the tower tops are regular intervals. The collapse times do not enter at all. Using this data, I find the best fitting value for the energy consumed per story, as determined by the crush down equation. |
Which seems to impress you quite a bit. The thrust of my recent posts are, "how can one put your model to the test?". You are also impressed that your model has been, to use your phrase, 'tested', twice.
One would think you'd be eager to test it a little more.
And speaking of your model, how does it distinguish between energy dissipated in crushing a floor, vs. energy 'leaking' through the building, into the ground. Oh, that's right - Bazant and Verdure assume that energy is only dissipated at the crushing front. The seismic record says otherwise. Caladine and English say otherwise. Commons sense says otherwise.
Of course, the real question is, "Is this a good enough approximation?" Shall we assume that quantifying how much this false assumption affects your results is a project for the future?
It wouldn't surprise me if neither Bazant, Lee, Greening or Benson are interested in determining how valid their results might be when more realistic assumptions about energy loss through seismic disturbance is factored in. After all, none of you seems terribly interested in energy losses away from the crushing front, due to dynamic effects ala Caladine and English. But this is 'closer' to the crushing front than the bedrock, and understanding these effects are probably easier.
To tell you the truth, even I wasn't terribly interested in this subject, being happy enough to assume that the bedrock that the WTC buildings rested on could be well approximated as perfectly rigid. However, thanks to BLGB's Figure 6d), I now think that this could be a huge oversight.
Also, it might explain how what you think is merely crushing energy per floor can decrease as "crush down" progresses. If energy dissipation via seismic leakage dominates losses via elastic and plastic deformation, and if the ability of the bedrock to aborb energy constitutes, in some sense, a reservior of energy absorbing capacity (by analogy, think of a thermal reservoir), then a constant (wrt time) dissipation of Kinetic Energy is less surprising. The losses due to elastic and plastic deformation would merely constitute corrections.
In thinking about the above, I noticed that I have been conflating seismic energy, which radiates out from ground zero, with deformation of the bedrock. However, the bedrock is not perfctly elastic..... Geez, this is getting complicated... In any event, even if you, personally, are not interested in nailing down an alternative way to test your own theory, others are.
Well, it seems to me that your guess is completely wrong. The way to check is for you to provide an equation for the drop d(t). Once I have that, I can see which is the better hypothesis (for the first few seconds) and how much better it is. Put in whatever you like. I'll stick with B & V's four simplifying assumptions.
Your 'tests' are prisoners of your model. If a viable means with which to estimate energy dissipation via seismic perturbations are determined, and insurmountable contradictions with your estimations result, it will only be an act of faith that could compel you to stick with your model as is, rather than improve it or abandon it.
QUOTE
Poster ceelliot suggested some comminution mechanisms just a few posts ago. I'll add that there was plenty of steel available to bang on the concrete. We do add some energy consumption for concrete comminution. Indeed, this stretches out the collapse time for WTC 1 to about 13 seconds for crush-down, which agrees with the Heath video (as I have mentioned several times).
His narrative hardly constitutes the sort of mathematical/physical analysis I am looking for.
* see, e.g., http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2000/ofr-00-0339/
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 9 2007, 02:19 AM)
The whole approach seems sloppy to me. But then, is has been presented in such a way that I simply do not understand what you misconception is.
Obviously the energy consumed per story, call it E1(s), increases as the story number decreases. So, for example, E1(8) > E1(65). What's the problem?
The problem is that the seismic record may tell us otherwise, as per arguments I have already laid out. (underestimating an uppler limit for E1 .4GJ for the top floor doesn't alter the reasoning implying that E1 rapidly decreases.) I think that a brain trust of seismologists and civil engineers who specialize in structural response to earthquakes should definitely be able to tell us how legitimate my arguments are.
Perhaps Bazant knows of such individuals, personally. Why not ask him?
Obviously the energy consumed per story, call it E1(s), increases as the story number decreases. So, for example, E1(8) > E1(65). What's the problem?
The problem is that the seismic record may tell us otherwise, as per arguments I have already laid out. (underestimating an uppler limit for E1 .4GJ for the top floor doesn't alter the reasoning implying that E1 rapidly decreases.) I think that a brain trust of seismologists and civil engineers who specialize in structural response to earthquakes should definitely be able to tell us how legitimate my arguments are.
Perhaps Bazant knows of such individuals, personally. Why not ask him?
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jun 8 2007, 03:40 PM)
Metamars:
You suggest: "If we can get an accurate value of power output from the seismic record.....etc". Yes, I think this may be a good idea.... in theory.... But I am not sure it would work in practice. I believe less than 1 % of the PE stored in a tower was converted into seismic energy.
On what do you base this belief? During an earthquake, in which no collapse occurs, 100% of the converted PE due to vertical displacement is captured by the ground (well, ignoring losses via elastic strain energy within the building itself -> heat, and other neglible effects ). Or so it seems to me.
Ironically, if collapse really was at free fall speed, I would expect no seismic signature, at all, during "crush down". I the building offered absolutely no resistance to the impacting mass, then how could it transmit any to the ground?
You suggest: "If we can get an accurate value of power output from the seismic record.....etc". Yes, I think this may be a good idea.... in theory.... But I am not sure it would work in practice. I believe less than 1 % of the PE stored in a tower was converted into seismic energy.
On what do you base this belief? During an earthquake, in which no collapse occurs, 100% of the converted PE due to vertical displacement is captured by the ground (well, ignoring losses via elastic strain energy within the building itself -> heat, and other neglible effects ). Or so it seems to me.
Ironically, if collapse really was at free fall speed, I would expect no seismic signature, at all, during "crush down". I the building offered absolutely no resistance to the impacting mass, then how could it transmit any to the ground?
Re: Seismic Energy.
From LDEO
The gravitational potential energy associated with the collapse of each tower is at least 10^11 J. The energy propagated as seismic waves for ML 2.3 is about 10^6 to 10^7 J. Hence, only a very small portion of the potential energy was converted into seismic waves. Most of the energy went into deformation of buildings and the formation of rubble and dust. The perception of people in the vicinity of the collapses as reported in the media seems to be in full accord with the notion that ground shaking was not a major contributor to the collapse or damage to surrounding buildings.
Arthur
From LDEO
The gravitational potential energy associated with the collapse of each tower is at least 10^11 J. The energy propagated as seismic waves for ML 2.3 is about 10^6 to 10^7 J. Hence, only a very small portion of the potential energy was converted into seismic waves. Most of the energy went into deformation of buildings and the formation of rubble and dust. The perception of people in the vicinity of the collapses as reported in the media seems to be in full accord with the notion that ground shaking was not a major contributor to the collapse or damage to surrounding buildings.
Arthur
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 9 2007, 02:20 AM)
Rumsfeld's comment wasn't intended as a scientific/technical description of thermobaric bombs' capabilities, and even if the comment were correct, you'd have to define what he meant by "take out a floor".
They aren't high explosives, they're large low-explosive charges, using fuel and air to create a blast wave capable of destroying soft targets, like personnel.
from wikipedia:
QUOTE
Fuel-air explosives disperse an aerosol cloud of fuel which is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. The main destructive force of FAE is high pressure. More importantly, the duration of the overpressure gives it an edge over conventional explosives and makes fuel-air explosives useful against hard targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.
(emphasis mine)
I have not the slightest doubt that data exists showing the effects of a number of thermobarics against concrete. The US military is not known for being under-funded, and bunkers are, AFAIK, typically made of concrete.
I don't have such data, but if you do, please share.
Meanwhile, if you have $32 you don't mind losing, you can order " Influence of thermobaric treatment on the structure and hardness of polycrystalline BNsph obtained in shock waves" at http://www.springerlink.com/content/vt4664h73p11365k/, and begin a whole new journey into the effects of thermobaric shock waves on materials.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
Fuel-air explosives disperse an aerosol cloud of fuel which is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. The main destructive force of FAE is high pressure. More importantly, the duration of the overpressure gives it an edge over conventional explosives and makes fuel-air explosives useful against hard targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers. |
(emphasis mine)
I have not the slightest doubt that data exists showing the effects of a number of thermobarics against concrete. The US military is not known for being under-funded, and bunkers are, AFAIK, typically made of concrete.
I don't have such data, but if you do, please share.
Meanwhile, if you have $32 you don't mind losing, you can order " Influence of thermobaric treatment on the structure and hardness of polycrystalline BNsph obtained in shock waves" at http://www.springerlink.com/content/vt4664h73p11365k/, and begin a whole new journey into the effects of thermobaric shock waves on materials.
I've seen footage of thermobaric bombs detonating within a few feet of concrete, and the concrete remains intact, as one should expect from a fuel-air blast.
Some more details would be nice. You're not assuming, are you, that all thermobarics are the same? They most certainly are not.
QUOTE
You could certainly break large slabs of concrete into smaller slabs, but comminution would be limited to the dust created when the slabs grind against each other. Shattering concrete requires high explosive (if it's being done by explosives of any sort).
And your proof of this is what, exactly? More to the point, what is your proof that shattering concrete cannot be done by thermobarics with lower peak pressures but greater impulse and 'accessibility' The fact that you saw 1 example of a thermobaric fail to do so?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
You could certainly break large slabs of concrete into smaller slabs, but comminution would be limited to the dust created when the slabs grind against each other. Shattering concrete requires high explosive (if it's being done by explosives of any sort). |
And your proof of this is what, exactly? More to the point, what is your proof that shattering concrete cannot be done by thermobarics with lower peak pressures but greater impulse and 'accessibility' The fact that you saw 1 example of a thermobaric fail to do so?
Otherwise, the "ball mill" notion is accurate, even if you have personal issues with the word "ball". (It isn't mean in the dirty sense here, just so you know. A "ball mill" is a means of grinding powder using heavy round weights that pound a coarse substance into a finer powder.)
Having heavy chunks of concrete colliding with smaller chunks of concrete, producing fine dust from the collisions, should be expected in the WTC collapse. What else would you expect the concrete chunks to do but collide and break up?
They certainly aren't going to stick together.
By presenting this as an either/or proposition, you are obscuring the issue. The concrete partlce sizes would be expected to display a distribution of sizes. It is matching the details of the particle size distribution with a credible cavity size distribution within the compacted rubble that is missing. If you put an egg inside of a steel safe, and then banged on the safe with a bat, the egg would not crack. Would an egg-sized piece of concrete crack? Of course, it wouldn't.
AFAIK, nobody has done any siginificant work on this.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 11:24 AM)
Re: Seismic Energy.
From LDEO
The gravitational potential energy associated with the collapse of each tower is at least 10^11 J. The energy propagated as seismic waves for ML 2.3 is about 10^6 to 10^7 J. Hence, only a very small portion of the potential energy was converted into seismic waves. Most of the energy went into deformation of buildings and the formation of rubble and dust. The perception of people in the vicinity of the collapses as reported in the media seems to be in full accord with the notion that ground shaking was not a major contributor to the collapse or damage to surrounding buildings.
Arthur
Very interesting, and to the point. As I noted recently, there's no reason to assume a purely elastic response by the ground the WTC was situated on. So the next question is, how much energy is lost in plastic strain and fracturing on the ground, and how is this related to what seismic activity occurred?
From LDEO
The gravitational potential energy associated with the collapse of each tower is at least 10^11 J. The energy propagated as seismic waves for ML 2.3 is about 10^6 to 10^7 J. Hence, only a very small portion of the potential energy was converted into seismic waves. Most of the energy went into deformation of buildings and the formation of rubble and dust. The perception of people in the vicinity of the collapses as reported in the media seems to be in full accord with the notion that ground shaking was not a major contributor to the collapse or damage to surrounding buildings.
Arthur
Very interesting, and to the point. As I noted recently, there's no reason to assume a purely elastic response by the ground the WTC was situated on. So the next question is, how much energy is lost in plastic strain and fracturing on the ground, and how is this related to what seismic activity occurred?
Metamars, you didn't answer this post:
But if it took a LOT of explosives, in each of three buildings, then SOME PHYSICAL signs of all these explosives going off should be OBVIOUS.
But NO EVIDENCE of explosives have been found.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
Arthur
QUOTE
Its very simple Metamars.
It either took a lot of explosives or it didn't take much at all.
If you claim it might not have taken much at all then you have to admit it might not of required ANY.
So it stands to reason if you BELIEVE that it was a CD you ALSO have to believe it took a LOT of explosives to do so.
It either took a lot of explosives or it didn't take much at all.
If you claim it might not have taken much at all then you have to admit it might not of required ANY.
So it stands to reason if you BELIEVE that it was a CD you ALSO have to believe it took a LOT of explosives to do so.
But if it took a LOT of explosives, in each of three buildings, then SOME PHYSICAL signs of all these explosives going off should be OBVIOUS.
But NO EVIDENCE of explosives have been found.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
Arthur
QUOTE
It is matching the details of the particle size distribution with a credible cavity size distribution
What cavity sizes are you talking about? The concrete would've been crushed/pulverized during the break-up and collisions of the floors on the way down.
I recognize that my narrative style may not be aesthetically pleasing to someone who's looking to put equations on everything, but one of my own special interests is innumerability, how some situations simply don't lend themselves to numerical analysis. I'll match my narrative's accuracy to the accuracy of any mathematical model you attempt to cram the real events into. A realistic narrative is the basis of understanding, sometimes you can apply math to that foundation and crunch meaningful numbers, but the problem I've seen with the models to-date is that they've sought mathematical purity over realism and tend to ignore the phenomena that aren't described by their math.
I'm not looking to pick a fight over this, models have their place, but I'm just saying that a realistic narrative that provides insight into the various mechanisms of the collapse is worth at least as much as a differential equation that matches the time of collapse.
Solving for E1, for instance, doesn't provide insight into what it would've looked like when the ceiling collapsed. A lot of different things could result in a specific value of E1. If you want to understand the phenomenology of the collapse, you'll need more than values for terms to plug into differential equations.
Every model is based on assumptions, and if you start off with the wrong assumptions, the math isn't going to provide much insight however elegant it may be.
So, what sort of "cavity size" are you talking about, and what would that have to do with the concrete chunks getting pulverized by each other as they collide a thousand times on the way down?
As for the fuel-air munitions, the effect of an explosive on an object is pretty well understood (at least by me). I had the occasion to study effects of explosives in my first job out of engineering school, working for a company that perforates oil wells (among other things). It isn't that difficult a concept, if the overpressure on-set is slower than the speed of sound in the material, then the material will distribute the forces throughout its structure. If the overpressure-onset is greater than the speed of sound in the material, then the effects of the overpressure are localized to the blast region. (Please excuse the lack of differential equations in that explanation.) The difference between high explosives and low explosives is the speed at which they release their energy. High explosives go off faster than low explosives. Good luck trying to damage steel with gunpowder, or pulverizing concrete with a hyperbaric munition.
Regardless of whatever hyperbole some journalist has written about fuel-air bombs, the damage they generate isn't the sort that would pulverize concrete directly, but by creating a large enough volume of high pressure, they are capable of crushing a target. I suspect that when whoever said they're useful against bunkers, he meant that a hyperbaric warhead could be mated to a bunker-penetrator and detonated within the bunker to destroy it from the inside. Minefields aren't destroyed by blowing the mines apart, they're destroyed by triggering the mines, which generally have pressure-sensitive fuses. It's just an effective means of generating overpressure spread over a large area, so that's the mechanism that destroys the targets. Push hard enough on a wall, it'll fall over.
The mechanism of forces on materials is worth understanding, as it applies directly to your theory about energy getting coupled to the ground. As I pointed out earlier, many of the descriptions of witnesses withing the buildings said that they'd feel a jolt then hear a rumble and/or the building would start swaying under their feet, and I said that's exactly what happens in an earthquake - P-waves arrive first (which are sudden jolts) and S-waves (shaking/swaying) follow, and the difference between their arrival times is associated with how far away the epicenter of the quake was.
In this instance, the towers were stiffer in compression than they were transversely, so shocks went straight through the steel at 20,000fps, from the top down to the bedrock faster than a human could perceive, but transverse waves took longer to propagate through the building. The maximum amount of force that could be transmitted to the bedrock is determined by the strength of the structure, as when the structure is subjected to local stresses that exceed the structure's ultimate strength, that's when the structure fails and the excess energy goes into breaking and bending stuff right there, including concrete.
It's the same phenomenon associated with what happens to a material subjected to overpressure from an explosive, but in the material sense, the ultimate strength of the material is due to the spacing and strength of the molecular bonds in the material, where in the WTC towers, those bonds' strengths are determined by the structural design.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 03:44 AM)
Oh Gordon does address the bowing.
Here is his lame attempt:
First he posts a FACT:
Here is his lame attempt:
First he posts a FACT:
QUOTE (Gordon Ross+)
Note that the bowing identified by Nist was only on one side of each tower. It was not generalised across all of the tower.
Then he tries to show NIST is somehow wrong about the bowing by creating his own strawman.
Then he tries to show NIST is somehow wrong about the bowing by creating his own strawman.
QUOTE (Gordon Ross+)
If the bowing was being caused by a pure vertical movement of the upper core structure, that is with no tilt, the bowing would be present on all four sides.
No WONDER he quit posting on this forum.
Stupidity like that is PRICELESS though.
Arthur
Yes, that's the rationalization I was talking about. The problem is it isn't very rational. HEHE
He first tried to say on this forum that the core caused the bowing remember? Thermite or something tilted the core creating the bow. Then I told him it would be impossible for the core to tilt and only cause one side to show an effect. This is his attempt to counter that.
This is the best they have???
What cavity sizes are you talking about? The concrete would've been crushed/pulverized during the break-up and collisions of the floors on the way down.
The compacted rubble wasn't one solid piece, with no spaces for air within. Otherwise, how could there have been any survivors, at all? They weren't comminuted.
So, they survived by being in a space where rubble was not, and furthermore, with insufficient pressure exerted upon them by whatever immediately surrounded them to kill them, much less crush them.
So, what sort of "cavity size" are you talking about, and what would that have to do with the concrete chunks getting pulverized by each other as they collide a thousand times on the way down?
If you put a chunk of concrete, smaller than the size of a WTC survivor caught in the rubble, in place of the survivor, of course the chunk of concrete would not have comminuted. There were, of course, innumerable cavities, which had to have had some sort of distribution. You have produced no analysis, whatsoever, as to what such a distribution would look like.
Don't feel too bad, neither has anybody else.
If you put a chunk of concrete, smaller than the size of a WTC survivor caught in the rubble, in place of the survivor, of course the chunk of concrete would not have comminuted. There were, of course, innumerable cavities, which had to have had some sort of distribution. You have produced no analysis, whatsoever, as to what such a distribution would look like.
Don't feel too bad, neither has anybody else.
As for the fuel-air munitions, the effect of an explosive on an object is pretty well understood (at least by me). I had the occasion to study effects of explosives in my first job out of engineering school, working for a company that perforates oil wells (among other things).
When was this?
It isn't that difficult a concept, if the overpressure on-set is slower than the speed of sound in the material, then the material will distribute the forces throughout its structure. If the overpressure-onset is greater than the speed of sound in the material, then the effects of the overpressure are localized to the blast region.
(Please excuse the lack of differential equations in that explanation.) The difference between high explosives and low explosives is the speed at which they release their energy. High explosives go off faster than low explosives. Good luck trying to damage steel with gunpowder, or pulverizing concrete with a hyperbaric munition.
Regardless of whatever hyperbole some journalist has written about fuel-air bombs, the damage they generate isn't the sort that would pulverize concrete directly, but by creating a large enough volume of high pressure, they are capable of crushing a target.
Most of the follwoing is drawn not from a journalist, but from an Australian DOD web site:
From http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...6.html#CACIDGDC
Most of the follwoing is drawn not from a journalist, but from an Australian DOD web site:
From http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...6.html#CACIDGDC
Detonation velocities of thermobaric explosives (3–4 km/s) are similar to those of mining blast explosives, and considerably lower than those of military high explosives (about 8 km/s).
All explosions form a blast wave, which travels faster than the speed of sound. Box 1 shows typical pressure histories for a conventional high explosive and a thermobaric explosive observed as the expanding shock front moves outwards from the centre of explosion. A shock front originates at the interface between detonation products and the surrounding atmosphere. There is a dramatic increase in pressure across the shock front (time t1 on the graph), which has a crushing effect on objects in addition to an instantaneous lateral force. As can be seen in Box 1, the peak overpressure is much higher for the high explosive detonation (P2) than for the thermobaric detonation (P1), but this pressure drops much more rapidly. The positive phase is followed by a negative phase below atmospheric pressure. The negative phase results in a reversed-blast wind and causes human targets to be bodily lifted and thrown. This phase can be longer in a thermobaric detonation than a high explosive detonation. Thus, despite the lower initial blast pressure, the total impulse (represented graphically in Box 1 by the area under the curve) can be comparable or even higher for thermobaric explosives compared with high explosives. Target effects are dependent on peak blast overpressure as well as on the duration (impulse) of the event.
Diagram of Pressure History of high explosive vs. thermobaric explosive detonations at:
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...degger_fm-1.jpg

Peak pressure is for the thermobaric is shown to be about half of the high explosive, and initial overpressure lasts about twice as long.
Furthermore, from WTC7.net, we learn that
Diagram of Pressure History of high explosive vs. thermobaric explosive detonations at:
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...degger_fm-1.jpg

Peak pressure is for the thermobaric is shown to be about half of the high explosive, and initial overpressure lasts about twice as long.
Furthermore, from WTC7.net, we learn that
Other advantages of thermobarics include an absence of conventional explosive residues, and much higher energy densities than conventional explosives. For example, whereas TNT yields 4.2 MJ/kg, hydrogen produces 120 MJ/kg (not counting the weight of the oxygen it uses to burn). 4
Though I'm not a chemist, the idea of using hydrogen in a thermobaric, while having the advantage of leaving no residue, seems a bit impractical. Wouldn't it explode before disbursing, fully? I suppose bomb designers might try and mitigate this by doing the opposite of what they might do with other thermobarics. And that is, instead of including oxidizers, they might add inhibitors - inert gases, for all I know.
Anyway, if concrete has a threshold such that overpressures from high explosive can create the dust observed, but not a thermobaric at half the overpressure, I would hope that somebody could post a reference to that effect.
Believe it or not, I too believe that drilling lots of holes in wTC concrete was not a clever way to prepare them for CD....
BTW, the wikipedia article seems at odds with the defence.gov.au reference, in that it seems to exacerbate the difference between HE and themobarics more.
The columns were welded all the way up, there were no weak connections.
But lets consider, we KNOW that the towers could handle over 9 core columns and thirty or so perimeter columns being cut, so, lets just ASSUME that you only have to cut 12 core columns (obviously no perimeter columns were cut) to get the same effect.
Every three floors.
That's over 370 columns in WTC 1.
Which is what I mean by TONS of explosives/thermate. (Not to mention the EXTENSIVE PREWORK in both towers that NOBODY mentions)
What's more, we are talking about 700 or so core columns in the pile would have evidence of this.
Which means it would be FOUND.
It WASN'T
Because it DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Arthur
Prove they were all welded and what the connections looked like. I have seen hundreds (possibly thousands) of 3 storey columns that have perfect ends from the mill.
For an OCT believer to question how much explosive is used is hilarious.
For you it could only be 1 stick of dynamite because building just collapse to the ground from gravity!
I'm telling you, it was Invisible Godzilla!
Did you see him in the photographs?
No! That *proves* he's invisible!
QED.
How much?
None.
Everything seen on 9/11 was directly attributable to aircraft impact damage + heat damage from the resulting fire.
Quantity of thermate necessary to explain the collapse = zero.
That kind of math I have no trouble with.
Indeed, Grumpy, there have been many posts of yours that I'd wished I'd written.
Re-read my post, the answer is right in front of you.
The concrete was pulverized ON THE WAY DOWN. DURING THE FALL.
You're talking about what happened to in after it landed. It was, for the most part, all over at that point.
The breakage started when the floor the concrete was part of got hit by the collapsing part, and the "ball mill" process continued to pulverize the concrete every time another floor collapsed.
What starts out a slab on floor 70 becomes part of the falling debris at floor 69. Every time a chunk of concrete hits another chunk of concrete on the way down, both chunks of concrete break and more dust is released.
And remember, this is lightweight concrete, so it isn't as tough as the stuff they use for freeways.
This raises an additional collapse mechanism that I just thought about.
Thought experiment: If you were to try to fill a building with water, two things would happen.
1) The floors aren't designed to carry that much load, even though the load is evenly distributed (ideally distributed, actually), so at some point the floor fail from the weight of the water.
2) The walls would collapse outward from the hydrostatic forces.
As concrete chunks break up more and more into finer and finer debris, they start acting like a dense viscous liquid. (Dump trucks essentially *pour* gravel.)
At some point, the lower floors would be cushioned by smallish chunks of concrete softening the impact from larger chunks of falling debris, leading to more floors falling more or less intact, so pancaking would eventually be a more accurate model of lower floors collapse mechanism.
This effect would tend to increase the number of recognizable lower floors in the rubble, but those pancaked floors would be buried in smaller debris of indeterminable origin (no way to know which floor the upper debris chunks came from due to the "ball-mill" mixing.
It would also tend to shove the outer curtain-walls out at the lower floors. Outward "hydrostatic" pressure on floor 50's curtain walls would tend to pry the curtain-wall supports away from the truss-mounts holding up floor 49 (and 48). Leverage would actually magnify the effect, given that the length of the curtain-wall columns spanned three floors.
Isn't it funny how intense heat ends up looking so much like rust?
No WONDER he quit posting on this forum.
Stupidity like that is PRICELESS though.
Arthur
Yes, that's the rationalization I was talking about. The problem is it isn't very rational. HEHE
He first tried to say on this forum that the core caused the bowing remember? Thermite or something tilted the core creating the bow. Then I told him it would be impossible for the core to tilt and only cause one side to show an effect. This is his attempt to counter that.
This is the best they have???
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 04:05 AM)
Its very simple Metamars.
It either took a lot of explosives or it didn't take much at all.
If you claim it might not have taken much at all then you have to admit it might not of required ANY.
So it stands to reason if you BELIEVE that it was a CD you ALSO have to believe it took a LOT of explosives to do so.
So that equates to adding a LARGE OUTSIDE energy source and what's more you are adding an energy source that will create effects that would be quite different than a gravity driven collapse.
Since the amount of energy is large and the effects are different and you do it in THREE buildings (which you KNOW are going to be filmed during collapse) it is only LOGICAL to assume that SOMEONE you don't control (remember there were 40,000 people working on Ground Zero) or someone at BPAT or FEMA or NIST or the Corp of Engineers or the Fireman or one of the people from the Demolition teams or science teams that were there would FIND IRRIFUTABLE evidence that these explosives were used.
The RISK of your plot being exposed would simply be too high.
The GAIN (above the carnage from crashing the planes into the towers) would be to little.
Arthur
But they seem to want it both ways. They want to suggest it could be done with little explosives but then they have to give up the "Fell with little resistance" argument. Remember, the building fell as fast as it did in their story because explosives took out all the resistance all the way to the ground.
But then the NWO has an explosive which can explode then materialize somewhere else to explode again, you silly!
It either took a lot of explosives or it didn't take much at all.
If you claim it might not have taken much at all then you have to admit it might not of required ANY.
So it stands to reason if you BELIEVE that it was a CD you ALSO have to believe it took a LOT of explosives to do so.
So that equates to adding a LARGE OUTSIDE energy source and what's more you are adding an energy source that will create effects that would be quite different than a gravity driven collapse.
Since the amount of energy is large and the effects are different and you do it in THREE buildings (which you KNOW are going to be filmed during collapse) it is only LOGICAL to assume that SOMEONE you don't control (remember there were 40,000 people working on Ground Zero) or someone at BPAT or FEMA or NIST or the Corp of Engineers or the Fireman or one of the people from the Demolition teams or science teams that were there would FIND IRRIFUTABLE evidence that these explosives were used.
The RISK of your plot being exposed would simply be too high.
The GAIN (above the carnage from crashing the planes into the towers) would be to little.
Arthur
But they seem to want it both ways. They want to suggest it could be done with little explosives but then they have to give up the "Fell with little resistance" argument. Remember, the building fell as fast as it did in their story because explosives took out all the resistance all the way to the ground.
But then the NWO has an explosive which can explode then materialize somewhere else to explode again, you silly!
QUOTE (3bodyproblem+Jun 9 2007, 04:14 AM)
"Spray on Semtec" pat. pending
How much, where, and how did it survive the impact explostion and fires. If you leave one out you have nothing.
How did the spray on semtec sag the trusses and bow the perimeter columns?
I could say aliens teleported the trusses out of the towers and have as much proof as spray on semtec in the towers.
How much, where, and how did it survive the impact explostion and fires. If you leave one out you have nothing.
How did the spray on semtec sag the trusses and bow the perimeter columns?
I could say aliens teleported the trusses out of the towers and have as much proof as spray on semtec in the towers.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 12:07 PM)
Very interesting, and to the point. As I noted recently, there's no reason to assume a purely elastic response by the ground the WTC was situated on. So the next question is, how much energy is lost in plastic strain and fracturing on the ground, and how is this related to what seismic activity occurred?
So now you're contending that a significant amount of energy was dissipated in fracturing the bedrock while the collapse front was moving downward?
So now you're contending that a significant amount of energy was dissipated in fracturing the bedrock while the collapse front was moving downward?
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 12:25 PM)
Metamars, you didn't answer this post:
But if it took a LOT of explosives, in each of three buildings, then SOME PHYSICAL signs of all these explosives going off should be OBVIOUS.
But NO EVIDENCE of explosives have been found.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
Arthur
Thermate can be formulated for explosive energy release, and X EDS studies by Professor Jones indicate the presence of thermate.
Ah, but you already know this.
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
If I knew the answers to those questions, I would have already posted them.
But if it took a LOT of explosives, in each of three buildings, then SOME PHYSICAL signs of all these explosives going off should be OBVIOUS.
But NO EVIDENCE of explosives have been found.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
Arthur
Thermate can be formulated for explosive energy release, and X EDS studies by Professor Jones indicate the presence of thermate.
Ah, but you already know this.
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
If I knew the answers to those questions, I would have already posted them.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 9 2007, 05:10 AM)
This pictures is quite deceptive. Features of the antenna indicate that the green line (roof line) has been drawn about 2 floors too low. The lower red line was meant to indicate the initial failure point (on another frame) but it was drawn some 5 to 7 floors too low (assuming failure to have occured close to the 96th storey.) The collapse front could also be situated lower than the red line would seem to imply (this red line is just drawn to match the assumed initial failure zone marked on an accompanying picture, which was already drawn much too low). All in all, the two lower lines are meaningless.
Some amount of crush-up might have occurred in the early phase of the collapse (as Bazant and Verdure acknowledge and explain) but not nearly as much as the lines drawned on these pictures suggest.
Actually, this is just more evidence of the upper section falling INSIDE the lower section.
When the perimeter columns pulled in and began tilting the top section, the perimeter columns above were pulled straight down and behind the perimeter columns of the lower section. In effect, the floors were being hit directly by the perimeter columns from above. (At least in 2 faces of each tower) That started the pancake AFTER the initial collapse.
http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm
Maybe Gordo can show us how gusset plates can hold up 15 to 30 stories of falling office building. Because the columns had nothing to do with the global collapse.
Some amount of crush-up might have occurred in the early phase of the collapse (as Bazant and Verdure acknowledge and explain) but not nearly as much as the lines drawned on these pictures suggest.
Actually, this is just more evidence of the upper section falling INSIDE the lower section.
When the perimeter columns pulled in and began tilting the top section, the perimeter columns above were pulled straight down and behind the perimeter columns of the lower section. In effect, the floors were being hit directly by the perimeter columns from above. (At least in 2 faces of each tower) That started the pancake AFTER the initial collapse.
http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm
Maybe Gordo can show us how gusset plates can hold up 15 to 30 stories of falling office building. Because the columns had nothing to do with the global collapse.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 02:59 PM)
Thermate can be formulated for explosive energy release, and X EDS studies by Professor Jones indicate the presence of thermate.
Ah, but you already know this.
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
If I knew the answers to those questions, I would have already posted them.
Well why don't you ask Jones if he can come up with an answer. He is the one that claims Thermite(thermate) is used, so I'm guessing he must have a good figure what was used.
And on the 911research page you are the ones that are claiming thermobaric explosives are used, so I'm guessing you already calculated how much was needed right?
Maybe you should rename the site to 911yourguessisasgoodasmine.
Ah, but you already know this.
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
If I knew the answers to those questions, I would have already posted them.
Well why don't you ask Jones if he can come up with an answer. He is the one that claims Thermite(thermate) is used, so I'm guessing he must have a good figure what was used.
And on the 911research page you are the ones that are claiming thermobaric explosives are used, so I'm guessing you already calculated how much was needed right?
Maybe you should rename the site to 911yourguessisasgoodasmine.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 11:52 AM)
from wikipedia:
The main destructive force of FAE is high pressure. More importantly, the duration of the overpressure gives it an edge over conventional explosives and makes fuel-air explosives useful against hard targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.
The blatant lie here is that the device can blow a hole in a hardened target. A shell penetrates the hardened target first, THEN the thermobaric device goes off in the shell creating the over pressure inside the hardened target.
They KNOW this but choose to lie about it.
So unless the NWO shelled the towers this is another silly con job.
The main destructive force of FAE is high pressure. More importantly, the duration of the overpressure gives it an edge over conventional explosives and makes fuel-air explosives useful against hard targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.
The blatant lie here is that the device can blow a hole in a hardened target. A shell penetrates the hardened target first, THEN the thermobaric device goes off in the shell creating the over pressure inside the hardened target.
They KNOW this but choose to lie about it.
So unless the NWO shelled the towers this is another silly con job.
metamars
Thermate IS NOT AN EXPLOSIVE, it CANNOT BE DETONATED. Even if it is made of microfine chemicals, it just burns faster, like gunpowder.
And, I'm sorry to have to say this, but Professor Jones is not a credible source for anything, so his determination of thermite is questionable, to say the least. There are many more credible explanations.
wcelliott
Excellent post, makes me wish I had said it first.
While math world can give us upper and lower limits and explain in general the events of the collapses are too varied and complex to lend themselves completely to math.
I think your narrative explains very well what the math world only outlines in generalities and approximations and, for those of us who don't think well in math(myself included) are more enjoyable to contemplate. We think a lot alike, good work.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Thermate can be formulated for explosive energy release, and X EDS studies by Professor Jones indicate the presence of thermate.
Ah, but you already know this.
Ah, but you already know this.
Thermate IS NOT AN EXPLOSIVE, it CANNOT BE DETONATED. Even if it is made of microfine chemicals, it just burns faster, like gunpowder.
And, I'm sorry to have to say this, but Professor Jones is not a credible source for anything, so his determination of thermite is questionable, to say the least. There are many more credible explanations.
wcelliott
Excellent post, makes me wish I had said it first.
While math world can give us upper and lower limits and explain in general the events of the collapses are too varied and complex to lend themselves completely to math.
I think your narrative explains very well what the math world only outlines in generalities and approximations and, for those of us who don't think well in math(myself included) are more enjoyable to contemplate. We think a lot alike, good work.
Grumpy
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 9 2007, 12:39 PM)
What cavity sizes are you talking about? The concrete would've been crushed/pulverized during the break-up and collisions of the floors on the way down.
The compacted rubble wasn't one solid piece, with no spaces for air within. Otherwise, how could there have been any survivors, at all? They weren't comminuted.
So, they survived by being in a space where rubble was not, and furthermore, with insufficient pressure exerted upon them by whatever immediately surrounded them to kill them, much less crush them.
QUOTE
So, what sort of "cavity size" are you talking about, and what would that have to do with the concrete chunks getting pulverized by each other as they collide a thousand times on the way down?
If you put a chunk of concrete, smaller than the size of a WTC survivor caught in the rubble, in place of the survivor, of course the chunk of concrete would not have comminuted. There were, of course, innumerable cavities, which had to have had some sort of distribution. You have produced no analysis, whatsoever, as to what such a distribution would look like.
Don't feel too bad, neither has anybody else.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
So, what sort of "cavity size" are you talking about, and what would that have to do with the concrete chunks getting pulverized by each other as they collide a thousand times on the way down? |
If you put a chunk of concrete, smaller than the size of a WTC survivor caught in the rubble, in place of the survivor, of course the chunk of concrete would not have comminuted. There were, of course, innumerable cavities, which had to have had some sort of distribution. You have produced no analysis, whatsoever, as to what such a distribution would look like.
Don't feel too bad, neither has anybody else.
As for the fuel-air munitions, the effect of an explosive on an object is pretty well understood (at least by me). I had the occasion to study effects of explosives in my first job out of engineering school, working for a company that perforates oil wells (among other things).
When was this?
QUOTE
It isn't that difficult a concept, if the overpressure on-set is slower than the speed of sound in the material, then the material will distribute the forces throughout its structure. If the overpressure-onset is greater than the speed of sound in the material, then the effects of the overpressure are localized to the blast region.
(Please excuse the lack of differential equations in that explanation.) The difference between high explosives and low explosives is the speed at which they release their energy. High explosives go off faster than low explosives. Good luck trying to damage steel with gunpowder, or pulverizing concrete with a hyperbaric munition.
Regardless of whatever hyperbole some journalist has written about fuel-air bombs, the damage they generate isn't the sort that would pulverize concrete directly, but by creating a large enough volume of high pressure, they are capable of crushing a target.
Most of the follwoing is drawn not from a journalist, but from an Australian DOD web site:
From http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...6.html#CACIDGDC
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
It isn't that difficult a concept, if the overpressure on-set is slower than the speed of sound in the material, then the material will distribute the forces throughout its structure. If the overpressure-onset is greater than the speed of sound in the material, then the effects of the overpressure are localized to the blast region. (Please excuse the lack of differential equations in that explanation.) The difference between high explosives and low explosives is the speed at which they release their energy. High explosives go off faster than low explosives. Good luck trying to damage steel with gunpowder, or pulverizing concrete with a hyperbaric munition. Regardless of whatever hyperbole some journalist has written about fuel-air bombs, the damage they generate isn't the sort that would pulverize concrete directly, but by creating a large enough volume of high pressure, they are capable of crushing a target. |
Most of the follwoing is drawn not from a journalist, but from an Australian DOD web site:
From http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...6.html#CACIDGDC
Detonation velocities of thermobaric explosives (3–4 km/s) are similar to those of mining blast explosives, and considerably lower than those of military high explosives (about 8 km/s).
QUOTE
All explosions form a blast wave, which travels faster than the speed of sound. Box 1 shows typical pressure histories for a conventional high explosive and a thermobaric explosive observed as the expanding shock front moves outwards from the centre of explosion. A shock front originates at the interface between detonation products and the surrounding atmosphere. There is a dramatic increase in pressure across the shock front (time t1 on the graph), which has a crushing effect on objects in addition to an instantaneous lateral force. As can be seen in Box 1, the peak overpressure is much higher for the high explosive detonation (P2) than for the thermobaric detonation (P1), but this pressure drops much more rapidly. The positive phase is followed by a negative phase below atmospheric pressure. The negative phase results in a reversed-blast wind and causes human targets to be bodily lifted and thrown. This phase can be longer in a thermobaric detonation than a high explosive detonation. Thus, despite the lower initial blast pressure, the total impulse (represented graphically in Box 1 by the area under the curve) can be comparable or even higher for thermobaric explosives compared with high explosives. Target effects are dependent on peak blast overpressure as well as on the duration (impulse) of the event.
Diagram of Pressure History of high explosive vs. thermobaric explosive detonations at:
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...degger_fm-1.jpg

Peak pressure is for the thermobaric is shown to be about half of the high explosive, and initial overpressure lasts about twice as long.
Furthermore, from WTC7.net, we learn that
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
All explosions form a blast wave, which travels faster than the speed of sound. Box 1 shows typical pressure histories for a conventional high explosive and a thermobaric explosive observed as the expanding shock front moves outwards from the centre of explosion. A shock front originates at the interface between detonation products and the surrounding atmosphere. There is a dramatic increase in pressure across the shock front (time t1 on the graph), which has a crushing effect on objects in addition to an instantaneous lateral force. As can be seen in Box 1, the peak overpressure is much higher for the high explosive detonation (P2) than for the thermobaric detonation (P1), but this pressure drops much more rapidly. The positive phase is followed by a negative phase below atmospheric pressure. The negative phase results in a reversed-blast wind and causes human targets to be bodily lifted and thrown. This phase can be longer in a thermobaric detonation than a high explosive detonation. Thus, despite the lower initial blast pressure, the total impulse (represented graphically in Box 1 by the area under the curve) can be comparable or even higher for thermobaric explosives compared with high explosives. Target effects are dependent on peak blast overpressure as well as on the duration (impulse) of the event. |
Diagram of Pressure History of high explosive vs. thermobaric explosive detonations at:
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...degger_fm-1.jpg

Peak pressure is for the thermobaric is shown to be about half of the high explosive, and initial overpressure lasts about twice as long.
Furthermore, from WTC7.net, we learn that
Other advantages of thermobarics include an absence of conventional explosive residues, and much higher energy densities than conventional explosives. For example, whereas TNT yields 4.2 MJ/kg, hydrogen produces 120 MJ/kg (not counting the weight of the oxygen it uses to burn). 4
Though I'm not a chemist, the idea of using hydrogen in a thermobaric, while having the advantage of leaving no residue, seems a bit impractical. Wouldn't it explode before disbursing, fully? I suppose bomb designers might try and mitigate this by doing the opposite of what they might do with other thermobarics. And that is, instead of including oxidizers, they might add inhibitors - inert gases, for all I know.
Anyway, if concrete has a threshold such that overpressures from high explosive can create the dust observed, but not a thermobaric at half the overpressure, I would hope that somebody could post a reference to that effect.
Believe it or not, I too believe that drilling lots of holes in wTC concrete was not a clever way to prepare them for CD....
BTW, the wikipedia article seems at odds with the defence.gov.au reference, in that it seems to exacerbate the difference between HE and themobarics more.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 09:59 AM)
Thermate can be formulated for explosive energy release, and X EDS studies by Professor Jones indicate the presence of thermate.
Ah, but you already know this.
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
If I knew the answers to those questions, I would have already posted them.
Well if you believe Gordon, then you would need this energetic explosive on damn near every 2nd or 3rd floor.
Then when you consider how much thermate you need to burn through enough columns to keep the collapse going, and then do it on every other floor.
And then increase the amount GREATLY as you go down the tower because the columns get BIGGER but the TIME you have to burn though them gets SMALLER and then the only conclusion is there would have to be TONS AND TONS of the stuff.
But, NO EVIDENCE (and NO, Jones has NOT produced any actual evidence of thermate) of the TONS AND TONS of slag from this Thermate/Thermite has been found.
Arthur
Ah, but you already know this.
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
If I knew the answers to those questions, I would have already posted them.
Well if you believe Gordon, then you would need this energetic explosive on damn near every 2nd or 3rd floor.
Then when you consider how much thermate you need to burn through enough columns to keep the collapse going, and then do it on every other floor.
And then increase the amount GREATLY as you go down the tower because the columns get BIGGER but the TIME you have to burn though them gets SMALLER and then the only conclusion is there would have to be TONS AND TONS of the stuff.
But, NO EVIDENCE (and NO, Jones has NOT produced any actual evidence of thermate) of the TONS AND TONS of slag from this Thermate/Thermite has been found.
Arthur
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 04:10 PM)
The compacted rubble wasn't one solid piece, with no spaces for air within. Otherwise, how could there have been any survivors, at all? They weren't comminuted.
So, they survived by being in a space where rubble was not, and furthermore, with insufficient pressure exerted upon them by whatever immediately surrounded them to kill them, much less crush them.
The only survivors found were in the stairwells, so not on one of the compacted floors. The other survivors, the ones they made a movie from, were outside the towers.
Here are some crushed floors.
www dot stevespak dot com slash fires slash manhattan slash wtc6 dot html
Maybe someone can put up a decent link from my link.
So, they survived by being in a space where rubble was not, and furthermore, with insufficient pressure exerted upon them by whatever immediately surrounded them to kill them, much less crush them.
The only survivors found were in the stairwells, so not on one of the compacted floors. The other survivors, the ones they made a movie from, were outside the towers.
Here are some crushed floors.
www dot stevespak dot com slash fires slash manhattan slash wtc6 dot html
Maybe someone can put up a decent link from my link.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 08:24 AM)
Well if you believe Gordon, then you would need this energetic explosive on damn near every 2nd or 3rd floor.
Then when you consider how much thermate you need to burn through enough columns to keep the collapse going, and then do it on every other floor.
And then increase the amount GREATLY as you go down the tower because the columns get BIGGER but the TIME you have to burn though them gets SMALLER and then the only conclusion is there would have to be TONS AND TONS of the stuff.
But, NO EVIDENCE (and NO, Jones has NOT produced any actual evidence of thermate) of the TONS AND TONS of slag from this Thermate/Thermite has been found.
Arthur
You don't have to burn through the columns , just the weak connections (we still don't know what they look like on the lower floors).
Gordon show the Squibs were every third floor.
The explosions just need to move the upper column of the lower column so it will drop.
Then when you consider how much thermate you need to burn through enough columns to keep the collapse going, and then do it on every other floor.
And then increase the amount GREATLY as you go down the tower because the columns get BIGGER but the TIME you have to burn though them gets SMALLER and then the only conclusion is there would have to be TONS AND TONS of the stuff.
But, NO EVIDENCE (and NO, Jones has NOT produced any actual evidence of thermate) of the TONS AND TONS of slag from this Thermate/Thermite has been found.
Arthur
You don't have to burn through the columns , just the weak connections (we still don't know what they look like on the lower floors).
Gordon show the Squibs were every third floor.
The explosions just need to move the upper column of the lower column so it will drop.
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 9 2007, 02:52 PM)
How much, where, and how did it survive the impact explostion and fires. If you leave one out you have nothing.
How did the spray on semtec sag the trusses and bow the perimeter columns?
I could say aliens teleported the trusses out of the towers and have as much proof as spray on semtec in the towers.
I know, and this is the best I could do. Thermite is harder to theorize, and the combination of Thermite and explosives even harder. Has anyone ever come up with something that actually made you think "Maybe?"
How did the spray on semtec sag the trusses and bow the perimeter columns?
I could say aliens teleported the trusses out of the towers and have as much proof as spray on semtec in the towers.
I know, and this is the best I could do. Thermite is harder to theorize, and the combination of Thermite and explosives even harder. Has anyone ever come up with something that actually made you think "Maybe?"
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 9 2007, 11:38 AM)
You don't have to burn through the columns , just the weak connections (we still don't know what they look like on the lower floors).
Gordon show the Squibs were every third floor.
The explosions just need to move the upper column of the lower column so it will drop.
The columns were welded all the way up, there were no weak connections.
But lets consider, we KNOW that the towers could handle over 9 core columns and thirty or so perimeter columns being cut, so, lets just ASSUME that you only have to cut 12 core columns (obviously no perimeter columns were cut) to get the same effect.
Every three floors.
That's over 370 columns in WTC 1.
Which is what I mean by TONS of explosives/thermate. (Not to mention the EXTENSIVE PREWORK in both towers that NOBODY mentions)
What's more, we are talking about 700 or so core columns in the pile would have evidence of this.
Which means it would be FOUND.
It WASN'T
Because it DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Arthur
Gordon show the Squibs were every third floor.
The explosions just need to move the upper column of the lower column so it will drop.
The columns were welded all the way up, there were no weak connections.
But lets consider, we KNOW that the towers could handle over 9 core columns and thirty or so perimeter columns being cut, so, lets just ASSUME that you only have to cut 12 core columns (obviously no perimeter columns were cut) to get the same effect.
Every three floors.
That's over 370 columns in WTC 1.
Which is what I mean by TONS of explosives/thermate. (Not to mention the EXTENSIVE PREWORK in both towers that NOBODY mentions)
What's more, we are talking about 700 or so core columns in the pile would have evidence of this.
Which means it would be FOUND.
It WASN'T
Because it DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Arthur
QUOTE (Jay38+Jun 9 2007, 11:25 AM)
The only survivors found were in the stairwells, so not on one of the compacted floors. The other survivors, the ones they made a movie from, were outside the towers.
Here are some crushed floors.
www dot stevespak dot com slash fires slash manhattan slash wtc6 dot html
Maybe someone can put up a decent link from my link.
Sure Jay
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Arthur
PS
Until you get link posting privliges just do this:
www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Makes it easy to paste that into another brower window
Here are some crushed floors.
www dot stevespak dot com slash fires slash manhattan slash wtc6 dot html
Maybe someone can put up a decent link from my link.
Sure Jay
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Arthur
PS
Until you get link posting privliges just do this:
www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Makes it easy to paste that into another brower window
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 05:00 PM)
Sure Jay
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Arthur
PS
Until you get link posting privileges just do this:
www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Makes it easy to paste that into another browser window
Maybe Metamars can explain to us, why we see big chunks of concrete floors in those pictures. I guess they forgot to blow those up...
Thank you for that tip Arthur.
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Arthur
PS
Until you get link posting privileges just do this:
www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc6.html
Makes it easy to paste that into another browser window
Maybe Metamars can explain to us, why we see big chunks of concrete floors in those pictures. I guess they forgot to blow those up...
Thank you for that tip Arthur.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 08:56 AM)
The columns were welded all the way up, there were no weak connections.
But lets consider, we KNOW that the towers could handle over 9 core columns and thirty or so perimeter columns being cut, so, lets just ASSUME that you only have to cut 12 core columns (obviously no perimeter columns were cut) to get the same effect.
Every three floors.
That's over 370 columns in WTC 1.
Which is what I mean by TONS of explosives/thermate. (Not to mention the EXTENSIVE PREWORK in both towers that NOBODY mentions)
What's more, we are talking about 700 or so core columns in the pile would have evidence of this.
Which means it would be FOUND.
It WASN'T
Because it DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Arthur
Prove they were all welded and what the connections looked like. I have seen hundreds (possibly thousands) of 3 storey columns that have perfect ends from the mill.
For an OCT believer to question how much explosive is used is hilarious.
For you it could only be 1 stick of dynamite because building just collapse to the ground from gravity!
QUOTE
But then the NWO has an explosive which can explode then materialize somewhere else to explode again, you silly!
I'm telling you, it was Invisible Godzilla!
Did you see him in the photographs?
No! That *proves* he's invisible!
QED.
QUOTE (Jay38+Jun 9 2007, 10:02 AM)
The bottom line is clearly false, since the plane crashed several floors higher.
if you draw the red line higher, it only makes things worse for the OCT's "crush up/crush down" theory. it is also clear that a great deal of the debris is already outside the footprint, and so, you don't get that mass, or kinetic energy to play with in your 'OCT bad assumption' sandbox.
the lower red line is not supposed to be where the plane crashes. it is the floor that starts blowing out when the collapse begins., and it is the floor that is not "crushing down". if you want more PE to play with, you should move the red line to the bottom of the tower, and then you can use the entire mass of the tower for crush down.
-------------------
on another note, gordon's kicking your OCT arses all over the web.

good example of an area of intense heat on the end of that column.
i wonder how many people will be rounded up for treason when the truth is finally accepted as fact? probably none. the iran contra scandal involved almost every single playa in the current admin, and well, they're not in jail, they're running the country just like dubya's great grandfather and grandfather and father wanted it. ie. a fascist regime.
if you draw the red line higher, it only makes things worse for the OCT's "crush up/crush down" theory. it is also clear that a great deal of the debris is already outside the footprint, and so, you don't get that mass, or kinetic energy to play with in your 'OCT bad assumption' sandbox.
the lower red line is not supposed to be where the plane crashes. it is the floor that starts blowing out when the collapse begins., and it is the floor that is not "crushing down". if you want more PE to play with, you should move the red line to the bottom of the tower, and then you can use the entire mass of the tower for crush down.
-------------------
on another note, gordon's kicking your OCT arses all over the web.

good example of an area of intense heat on the end of that column.
i wonder how many people will be rounded up for treason when the truth is finally accepted as fact? probably none. the iran contra scandal involved almost every single playa in the current admin, and well, they're not in jail, they're running the country just like dubya's great grandfather and grandfather and father wanted it. ie. a fascist regime.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 10:47 AM)
The thrust of my recent posts are, "how can one put your model to the test?".
In any event, even if you, personally, are not interested in nailing down an alternative way to test your own theory, others are.
Ok, here is how. Obtain a Physics 101 lab rail car setup. (There are also air car setups, which are more expensive and, I think, less suitable for this experiment.) You'll also need a very good pulley, stout string (I recommend surf line), a weight pans and a set of lab weights.
Arrange this on, say, the right end of your lab bench so that the pulley hangs out into the air. Attach some twine to a rail car (arrange it to be hooked to a tower your build on the rail car), over the pulley, and attached to the hanging pan. Put a weight in the pan and observe the motion. This should give you an estimate for the friction losses.
These rail cars come with snaps to which Velcro bands can be attached. Position a intermediate rail car, both cars having Velcro in place. Observe and measure the momentum effects as the original car moves from left to right. Now try a third (and if the rail is long enough, a fourth) car, all with Velcro.
Repeat without Velcro if that interests you, but the original, inelastic experiments, with careful measurements, should fit into the crush-down equation fairly well. (Do not expect to get better than about 5--10% agreement with the equation.)
I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear (if not,ask) and I am looking forward to the results of your experiment (which, by the way, you could write up and publish in The Physics Teacher or another peer-reviewed journal. (If you are trying to get into grad school, having such a citation in your c.v. will certainly help!)
In any event, even if you, personally, are not interested in nailing down an alternative way to test your own theory, others are.
Ok, here is how. Obtain a Physics 101 lab rail car setup. (There are also air car setups, which are more expensive and, I think, less suitable for this experiment.) You'll also need a very good pulley, stout string (I recommend surf line), a weight pans and a set of lab weights.
Arrange this on, say, the right end of your lab bench so that the pulley hangs out into the air. Attach some twine to a rail car (arrange it to be hooked to a tower your build on the rail car), over the pulley, and attached to the hanging pan. Put a weight in the pan and observe the motion. This should give you an estimate for the friction losses.
These rail cars come with snaps to which Velcro bands can be attached. Position a intermediate rail car, both cars having Velcro in place. Observe and measure the momentum effects as the original car moves from left to right. Now try a third (and if the rail is long enough, a fourth) car, all with Velcro.
Repeat without Velcro if that interests you, but the original, inelastic experiments, with careful measurements, should fit into the crush-down equation fairly well. (Do not expect to get better than about 5--10% agreement with the equation.)
I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear (if not,ask) and I am looking forward to the results of your experiment (which, by the way, you could write up and publish in The Physics Teacher or another peer-reviewed journal. (If you are trying to get into grad school, having such a citation in your c.v. will certainly help!)
QUOTE
As for "it took a LOT of explosives", the question is "how much is a lot"? In particular, for thermobaric explosions, how much are needed within the range of permissible thermobaric parameters?
How much?
None.
Everything seen on 9/11 was directly attributable to aircraft impact damage + heat damage from the resulting fire.
Quantity of thermate necessary to explain the collapse = zero.
That kind of math I have no trouble with.
QUOTE
We think a lot alike, good work.
Indeed, Grumpy, there have been many posts of yours that I'd wished I'd written.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 9 2007, 05:58 PM)
the lower red line is not supposed to be where the plane crashes. it is the floor that starts blowing out when the collapse begins., and it is the floor that is not "crushing down".
Please look at the next video, and try and make that claim again.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3634528756000094312&hl=en
Please look at the next video, and try and make that claim again.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3634528756000094312&hl=en
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 9 2007, 05:51 PM)
Prove they were all welded and what the connections looked like. I have seen hundreds (possibly thousands) of 3 storey columns that have perfect ends from the mill.
1) The exterior columns were bolted at the ends, not welded.
2) The connections higher in the towers were splice plates. The heavier box columns had (what I will call) vee-welds, not deep, along at least one long side.
See NCSTAR1-3B, for example.
1) The exterior columns were bolted at the ends, not welded.
2) The connections higher in the towers were splice plates. The heavier box columns had (what I will call) vee-welds, not deep, along at least one long side.
See NCSTAR1-3B, for example.
QUOTE
If you put a chunk of concrete, smaller than the size of a WTC survivor caught in the rubble, in place of the survivor, of course the chunk of concrete would not have comminuted. There were, of course, innumerable cavities, which had to have had some sort of distribution. You have produced no analysis, whatsoever, as to what such a distribution would look like.
Re-read my post, the answer is right in front of you.
The concrete was pulverized ON THE WAY DOWN. DURING THE FALL.
You're talking about what happened to in after it landed. It was, for the most part, all over at that point.
The breakage started when the floor the concrete was part of got hit by the collapsing part, and the "ball mill" process continued to pulverize the concrete every time another floor collapsed.
What starts out a slab on floor 70 becomes part of the falling debris at floor 69. Every time a chunk of concrete hits another chunk of concrete on the way down, both chunks of concrete break and more dust is released.
And remember, this is lightweight concrete, so it isn't as tough as the stuff they use for freeways.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 9 2007, 04:10 PM)
The compacted rubble wasn't one solid piece, with no spaces for air within. Otherwise, how could there have been any survivors, at all? They weren't comminuted.
So, they survived by being in a space where rubble was not, and furthermore, with insufficient pressure exerted upon them by whatever immediately surrounded them to kill them, much less crush them.
What do the survivers in a few floors of the core have to do with the floors around the core?
Answer: Nothing!
Show me ONE surviver who was in "a space where rubble was not" who was outside the core.
Answer: Not one
That's because anyone in the path of the falling floors would have looked like the concrete.
Answer: little pieces
So, they survived by being in a space where rubble was not, and furthermore, with insufficient pressure exerted upon them by whatever immediately surrounded them to kill them, much less crush them.
What do the survivers in a few floors of the core have to do with the floors around the core?
Answer: Nothing!
Show me ONE surviver who was in "a space where rubble was not" who was outside the core.
Answer: Not one
That's because anyone in the path of the falling floors would have looked like the concrete.
Answer: little pieces
QUOTE (newton+Jun 9 2007, 05:58 PM)
on another note, gordon's kicking your OCT arses all over the web.

good example of an area of intense heat on the end of that column.
Wow, he found a picture of 1 Column!!! Where is the rest? And when was this picture taken?

good example of an area of intense heat on the end of that column.
Wow, he found a picture of 1 Column!!! Where is the rest? And when was this picture taken?
QUOTE (3bodyproblem+Jun 9 2007, 04:48 PM)
Has anyone ever come up with something that actually made you think
I see Gordon has made a nice drawing of how the columns were being offset by the explosives.
gordonssite.com/demolition/Core_20column_20section.jpg
gordonssite.com/demolition/Core_20column_20section.jpg
QUOTE (newton+Jun 9 2007, 05:58 PM)
it is also clear that a great deal of the debris is already outside the footprint, ...
There was about 12 acre-feet of air per story. During the crushing the wall board would be pulverized, producing dirty air. All that you are seeing is dirty air being expelled. The vast majority of the mass is still inside the footprint.
There was about 12 acre-feet of air per story. During the crushing the wall board would be pulverized, producing dirty air. All that you are seeing is dirty air being expelled. The vast majority of the mass is still inside the footprint.
QUOTE
I see Gordon has made a nice drawing of how the columns were being offset by the explosives
This raises an additional collapse mechanism that I just thought about.
Thought experiment: If you were to try to fill a building with water, two things would happen.
1) The floors aren't designed to carry that much load, even though the load is evenly distributed (ideally distributed, actually), so at some point the floor fail from the weight of the water.
2) The walls would collapse outward from the hydrostatic forces.
As concrete chunks break up more and more into finer and finer debris, they start acting like a dense viscous liquid. (Dump trucks essentially *pour* gravel.)
At some point, the lower floors would be cushioned by smallish chunks of concrete softening the impact from larger chunks of falling debris, leading to more floors falling more or less intact, so pancaking would eventually be a more accurate model of lower floors collapse mechanism.
This effect would tend to increase the number of recognizable lower floors in the rubble, but those pancaked floors would be buried in smaller debris of indeterminable origin (no way to know which floor the upper debris chunks came from due to the "ball-mill" mixing.
It would also tend to shove the outer curtain-walls out at the lower floors. Outward "hydrostatic" pressure on floor 50's curtain walls would tend to pry the curtain-wall supports away from the truss-mounts holding up floor 49 (and 48). Leverage would actually magnify the effect, given that the length of the curtain-wall columns spanned three floors.
QUOTE (Jay38+Jun 9 2007, 12:30 PM)
I see Gordon has made a nice drawing of how the columns were being offset by the explosives.
http://gordonssite.com/demolition/Core_20c...n_20section.jpg
LOL
Mohammad should draw comics for the funny pages.
(fixed the link)
http://gordonssite.com/demolition/Core_20c...n_20section.jpg
LOL
Mohammad should draw comics for the funny pages.
(fixed the link)
QUOTE
good example of an area of intense heat on the end of that column.
Isn't it funny how intense heat ends up looking so much like rust?
QUOTE (newton+Jun 9 2007, 12:58 PM)
on another note, gordon's kicking your OCT arses all over the web.
Only among those who were true believers (like you) to start with.
On the other hand, for those who actually have WORKING neurons:
http://newtonsbit.blogspot.com/
Arthur
Only among those who were true believers (like you) to start with.
On the other hand, for those who actually have WORKING neurons:
http://newtonsbit.blogspot.com/
Arthur
QUOTE (Jay38+Jun 9 2007, 06:30 PM)
I see Gordon has made a nice drawing of how the columns were being offset by the explosives.
gordonssite.com/demolition/Core_20column_20section.jpg
I have yet to see a video suggesting the oposite face from the pulled in columns actually went up as he suggests. What I see is the pulled in face go down and the oposite face bendslightly and fall. Just because the pivot point is the center of the building doesn't mean the steel on one end went down and the other up. The pivot point (Core columns) simply goes straight down.
Interesting that the explosives mirror EXACTLY the effects of a collapse by fire. Also interesting is the lack of evidence for explosives like squibs BEFORE the building begins collapse.
gordonssite.com/demolition/Core_20column_20section.jpg
I have yet to see a video suggesting the oposite face from the pulled in columns actually went up as he suggests. What I see is the pulled in face go down and the oposite face bendslightly and fall. Just because the pivot point is the center of the building doesn't mean the steel on one end went down and the other up. The pivot point (Core columns) simply goes straight down.
Interesting that the explosives mirror EXACTLY the effects of a collapse by fire. Also interesting is the lack of evidence for explosives like squibs BEFORE the building begins collapse.
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