Yeah Grumpy, there's several diff kinds of cranes used to erect buildings. Most are on towers. The 'whirlybird' cranes that are horizontal and the load trolleys along the length of it, are fast, but can't pick up very heavy loads... especially out on the end. There's derricks, that can lift heavy loads. They are two-piece cranes that look and work like scissors, kinda. Pinned together at the bottom, one is always vertical and it 'opens and closes' the scissors to lift the load and bring it into position. They usually have to bring the load all the way to 'closed' from the pickpoint(usually off a truck), before spinning and then 'opening' again to lower the load in the desired location.
All have diff ways of dismantling. I just read an article where they used a heavy-lift helicopter to take a crane down in sections. I'm sure that would be the most expensive. The derricks are interesting. One piece lowers the other. First 'drop' is the length(actually heigth) of one derrick, then that lower one is secured and it can lower the top section twice as far, then it is secured... they 'crawl' each other twice their length all the way down like that.
I've never seen a construction crane that doesn't have it's own tower sections, that uses strictly the building to 'climb' on. Of course they always secure theirselves to the building, but climbed up 'n down their own tower.
Testing two hypotheses --- While the graph of drop versus time is approximately parabolic, crush-down differential equation solutions clearly have terms k_n(t^n) with k_n non-zero for all values of n > 1. Testing on the north tower with the 3.0 seconds of drop data available:
(1) The crush-down equation with stretch 0.14, which fits the data with an rms error of 0.3573 meters with best fit E1 = 327.21 J/kg
versus
(2) d = (1/2)at^2, which fits the data with an rms error of 0.3970 meters with best fit a = 0.66g.
Well, the crush-down equation has the better fit. But it is interesting to note that the best fit acceleration is about (2/3)g. So much for C's so-called fracture wave theory...
(1) The crush-down equation with stretch 0.14, which fits the data with an rms error of 0.3573 meters with best fit E1 = 327.21 J/kg
versus
(2) d = (1/2)at^2, which fits the data with an rms error of 0.3970 meters with best fit a = 0.66g.
Well, the crush-down equation has the better fit. But it is interesting to note that the best fit acceleration is about (2/3)g. So much for C's so-called fracture wave theory...
How far did WTC 1 tilt just before collapse initiation? NIST NCSTAR1-6 or 1-6D offers one answer from their fire+FEA model. But there are many videos showing the antenna tower. From these it might be possible to determine a measured angle. Having this to compare with the modeled result would be informative. Anyone? 
Lozenge 1234:
Remember when you said:
"Grumpy proposed a model (based on what I had said, yes)........ I then asked
him where the 2/3g came from."
Well Lozenge, I think DBB just answered your question!
DBB:
The tilt of WTC 2 is quite easy to quantify...
By comparison, WTC 1's tilt is much more difficult to measure even with the antenna acting as a pointer...
The problem is that there are very subtle perspective effects to consider...
NF
Remember when you said:
"Grumpy proposed a model (based on what I had said, yes)........ I then asked
him where the 2/3g came from."
Well Lozenge, I think DBB just answered your question!
DBB:
The tilt of WTC 2 is quite easy to quantify...
By comparison, WTC 1's tilt is much more difficult to measure even with the antenna acting as a pointer...
The problem is that there are very subtle perspective effects to consider...
NF
NEU-FONZE --- Ok, then what was the tilt angle of WTC 2 just before collapse initiation? And do you think that was larger than for WTC 1? 
DBB:
In answer to your qustion:
You need to look at the mathematical problem of the "falling pencil".
In theory a pencil can balance for days on its pointed tip, but once it starts to fall, the tipping rate is an exponential function....
It is generally stated that WTC 2 started its rapid, “near free fall”, collapse about 56 minutes after it was struck by an aircraft, but it is also possible that during this post-impact, pre-collapse period the fires within the building gradually weakened the structure and induced a slow but irrevocable buckling of columns near the impact zone. Thus I would say that WTC 2 probably started to tip over as soon as it was hit by an aircraft, but the tipping was not noticeable because the average angular velocity was only about 1° per hour or 0.0003° s-1.
At one minute before collapse the angular velocity of the upper section of WTC 2 had increased to about 0.03° s-1. However, even this rate of tipping was too small to be noticeable. Nonetheless, the conditions that were necessary for the total collapse of WTC 2 were now established through the continuous build up of strain energy in the columns on the south and east sides of the Tower. Eventually the lowering of one side of the building was such that the maximum strain energy capacity of the structure was reached. At this critical juncture the columns on the weakened sides of the building underwent rapid failure and the 30 floors above the impact zone pivoted en masse about the northeast corner, causing this section of the Tower to fall obliquely on to the floor below.
Because this failure occurred when the floors in the southeast corner of the 80th floor of WTC 2 were already lowered by up to 1 meter from the initial 3.7 m floor spacing, the upper block would have pivoted a maximum additional distance of 2.7 m before impacting the floor below. Application of the formula d = w sin theta shows that such a failure mechanism would increase the initial 0.9° tilt angle of the upper section of WTC 2 by a further 2.4° giving a tilt angle at the moment of impact of the upper block of floors with the floor below of 3.3°. Thus for tilt angles between 0.9° and 3.3° the tipping of the upper section was occurring under the action of gravity.
Bazant and Zhou, (B & Z), in their paper: “Why did the World Trade Center Collapse?” show that the horizontal shear force at the base of the tilting upper section of WTC 2 is equal to 3/8Mg sin 2theta and estimate that the plastic shear resistance of WTC 2 columns near the impact zone was about 1/10.3 of the maximum horizontal shear. From this estimate B & Z conclude that the horizontal shear force equaled the plastic limit of the affected columns when sin 2theta = 1/10.3 or when theta = 2.8°. Thus B & Z predict that the upper section of WTC 2 became unstable at a tilt angle of about 3°....
I believe this is not entirely in agreement with the NIST Report.
NF
In answer to your qustion:
You need to look at the mathematical problem of the "falling pencil".
In theory a pencil can balance for days on its pointed tip, but once it starts to fall, the tipping rate is an exponential function....
It is generally stated that WTC 2 started its rapid, “near free fall”, collapse about 56 minutes after it was struck by an aircraft, but it is also possible that during this post-impact, pre-collapse period the fires within the building gradually weakened the structure and induced a slow but irrevocable buckling of columns near the impact zone. Thus I would say that WTC 2 probably started to tip over as soon as it was hit by an aircraft, but the tipping was not noticeable because the average angular velocity was only about 1° per hour or 0.0003° s-1.
At one minute before collapse the angular velocity of the upper section of WTC 2 had increased to about 0.03° s-1. However, even this rate of tipping was too small to be noticeable. Nonetheless, the conditions that were necessary for the total collapse of WTC 2 were now established through the continuous build up of strain energy in the columns on the south and east sides of the Tower. Eventually the lowering of one side of the building was such that the maximum strain energy capacity of the structure was reached. At this critical juncture the columns on the weakened sides of the building underwent rapid failure and the 30 floors above the impact zone pivoted en masse about the northeast corner, causing this section of the Tower to fall obliquely on to the floor below.
Because this failure occurred when the floors in the southeast corner of the 80th floor of WTC 2 were already lowered by up to 1 meter from the initial 3.7 m floor spacing, the upper block would have pivoted a maximum additional distance of 2.7 m before impacting the floor below. Application of the formula d = w sin theta shows that such a failure mechanism would increase the initial 0.9° tilt angle of the upper section of WTC 2 by a further 2.4° giving a tilt angle at the moment of impact of the upper block of floors with the floor below of 3.3°. Thus for tilt angles between 0.9° and 3.3° the tipping of the upper section was occurring under the action of gravity.
Bazant and Zhou, (B & Z), in their paper: “Why did the World Trade Center Collapse?” show that the horizontal shear force at the base of the tilting upper section of WTC 2 is equal to 3/8Mg sin 2theta and estimate that the plastic shear resistance of WTC 2 columns near the impact zone was about 1/10.3 of the maximum horizontal shear. From this estimate B & Z conclude that the horizontal shear force equaled the plastic limit of the affected columns when sin 2theta = 1/10.3 or when theta = 2.8°. Thus B & Z predict that the upper section of WTC 2 became unstable at a tilt angle of about 3°....
I believe this is not entirely in agreement with the NIST Report.
NF
Thanks Greening, DBB ,that’s enough Pseudoscience for today (lateral loads fractured the welds my a$$). 
More testimonies of bombs in WTC7:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...351664218&hl=en
More testimonies of bombs in WTC7:
QUOTE
NYPD Officer Heard Building 7 Bombs
"The whole time you're hearing boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I think I know an explosion when I hear it"
BARTMER: "I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. I didn't see any reason for that building to fall down the way it did -- and a lot of guys should be saying the same thing. I don't know what the fear is coming out and talking about it? I don't know -- but it's the truth."
BARTMER: "I walked around it (Building 7). I saw a hole. I didn't see a hole bad enough to knock a building down, though. Yeah there was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any... I didn't hear any creaking, or... I didn't hear any indication that it was going to come down. And all of a sudden the radios exploded and everyone started screaming 'get away, get away, get away from it!'... It was at that moment... I looked up, and it was nothing I would ever imagine seeing in my life. The thing started pealing in on itself... Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running, and the ***'s hitting the ground behind me, and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Yeah it had some damage to it, but nothing like what they're saying... Nothing to account for what we saw... I am shocked at the story we've heard about it to be quite honest."
"The whole time you're hearing boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I think I know an explosion when I hear it"
BARTMER: "I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. I didn't see any reason for that building to fall down the way it did -- and a lot of guys should be saying the same thing. I don't know what the fear is coming out and talking about it? I don't know -- but it's the truth."
BARTMER: "I walked around it (Building 7). I saw a hole. I didn't see a hole bad enough to knock a building down, though. Yeah there was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any... I didn't hear any creaking, or... I didn't hear any indication that it was going to come down. And all of a sudden the radios exploded and everyone started screaming 'get away, get away, get away from it!'... It was at that moment... I looked up, and it was nothing I would ever imagine seeing in my life. The thing started pealing in on itself... Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running, and the ***'s hitting the ground behind me, and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Yeah it had some damage to it, but nothing like what they're saying... Nothing to account for what we saw... I am shocked at the story we've heard about it to be quite honest."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...351664218&hl=en
QUOTE (newton+Feb 11 2007, 09:44 PM)
shelf-life, shmelf-life
bombs planted(tnt) in the SIXTIES. swiss army.
How long will explosives continue to safely detonate?
bombs planted(tnt) in the SIXTIES. swiss army.
QUOTE
But the defense ministry is clear on why explosives should have reached Lucerne as late as 1989. The priority was to place charges under the crucial border regions first, and this was done in the 1960s.
Safety questions
Not surprisingly, there are concerns over whether the many stocks of hidden explosives are safe. Two years ago, firefighters arriving to put out the catastrophic fire in the Gotthard tunnel were not at first told that the tunnel too had been mined with explosives.
Although these have since been removed, the army is not planning to remove the explosives from all areas of the country.
“It’s still part of our defense policy,” said Schuepbach. “Who knows what the situation will be in 20 years’ time? We can’t say whether there will be an enemy or not, or what kind of battle there will be.
“So, yes, we are still maintaining several hundred sites with permanent explosives.”
Schuepbach, however, is keen to reassure the Swiss public that these sites are completely safe.
“They are checked several times a year,” he explained. “And although the detonating cords are buried with the explosives, the fuses and secret detonation codes are stored separately, so there’s really no chance of accident or sabotage.”
Safety questions
Not surprisingly, there are concerns over whether the many stocks of hidden explosives are safe. Two years ago, firefighters arriving to put out the catastrophic fire in the Gotthard tunnel were not at first told that the tunnel too had been mined with explosives.
Although these have since been removed, the army is not planning to remove the explosives from all areas of the country.
“It’s still part of our defense policy,” said Schuepbach. “Who knows what the situation will be in 20 years’ time? We can’t say whether there will be an enemy or not, or what kind of battle there will be.
“So, yes, we are still maintaining several hundred sites with permanent explosives.”
Schuepbach, however, is keen to reassure the Swiss public that these sites are completely safe.
“They are checked several times a year,” he explained. “And although the detonating cords are buried with the explosives, the fuses and secret detonation codes are stored separately, so there’s really no chance of accident or sabotage.”
How long will explosives continue to safely detonate?
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 11 2007, 08:12 AM)
You can't argue with the logic so you make a an attemp at dry CT humor. Heh!
The conspiracy story you and your CT nutbars continue to regurgitate. That conspiracy story.
Well numbnuts, In you fairytale of a conspiracy the authorities don't even what to prosecute the criminals ( would stop the war on terror).
That is not funny it is disgraceful.
The conspiracy story you and your CT nutbars continue to regurgitate. That conspiracy story.
Well numbnuts, In you fairytale of a conspiracy the authorities don't even what to prosecute the criminals ( would stop the war on terror).
That is not funny it is disgraceful.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Feb 11 2007, 11:00 AM)
Not the column members, but the tower core is thusly broken into two pieces at the buckled members. Gosh, as the quote goes, its good to be open minded, but not so much so that your brains fall out. 
Trussed floors are not required to bagel as one unit. But ripping apart the connections between segments of the trussed floor might have required more energy. The seems to have happened before the trusses came to rest at Ground Zero.
Is this a serious answer DBB?
The core was connected with something and engineers call them columns.
If the core breaks into two sections the columns also have to break. The column splices (every third floor) were not on the floors the collapse initiated. Look at the model in the NIST report (as you preach to everyone else).
Trussed floors are not required to bagel as one unit. But ripping apart the connections between segments of the trussed floor might have required more energy. The seems to have happened before the trusses came to rest at Ground Zero.
Is this a serious answer DBB?
The core was connected with something and engineers call them columns.
If the core breaks into two sections the columns also have to break. The column splices (every third floor) were not on the floors the collapse initiated. Look at the model in the NIST report (as you preach to everyone else).
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 12 2007, 07:05 AM)
Is this a serious answer DBB?
The core was connected with something and engineers call them columns.
If the core breaks into two sections the columns also have to break. The column splices (every third floor) were not on the floors the collapse initiated. Look at the model in the NIST report (as you preach to everyone else).
reasonwhy, core columns in the impact zones had varying degrees of damage.
Some were severed, some were deformed, some were thermally and or chemically degraded, and those that remained intact were in turn subject to increase loading.
The multi floor impact and fire damage in each tower eventually overcame the reserve capacity of the degraded core, perimeter, and floor assemblies in the impact zones which led to local and global collapse.
You should know know and understand the drill by now.
The weaknesses in the core columns outside the impact areas were the splices.
The splices were intended to index the columns in place for construction.
Coupled with the floor and beam assemblies, the splices would not be subject to overloading, but take away that bracing in a collapse scenario, be it CD or gravity driven, those splices become vulnerable.
Why is it that the engineers that designed and built the towers understand these vulnerabilities, but you are unable or unwilling to?
The core was connected with something and engineers call them columns.
If the core breaks into two sections the columns also have to break. The column splices (every third floor) were not on the floors the collapse initiated. Look at the model in the NIST report (as you preach to everyone else).
reasonwhy, core columns in the impact zones had varying degrees of damage.
Some were severed, some were deformed, some were thermally and or chemically degraded, and those that remained intact were in turn subject to increase loading.
The multi floor impact and fire damage in each tower eventually overcame the reserve capacity of the degraded core, perimeter, and floor assemblies in the impact zones which led to local and global collapse.
You should know know and understand the drill by now.
The weaknesses in the core columns outside the impact areas were the splices.
The splices were intended to index the columns in place for construction.
Coupled with the floor and beam assemblies, the splices would not be subject to overloading, but take away that bracing in a collapse scenario, be it CD or gravity driven, those splices become vulnerable.
Why is it that the engineers that designed and built the towers understand these vulnerabilities, but you are unable or unwilling to?
The NIST model showed that about 12 kips per column was needed to pull in the perimeter walls. The perimeter columns at the aircraft impact regions were slender and relatively easy to bend laterally.
NIST Appendix B states the load to fail a gusset plate of a floor connection at the perimeter wall was on the order of 100 kips or 4.5E5 N. That's an order of magnitude higher than the pull-in force. The connections were able to pull in the wall.
Estimate the energy to fail the 100-kip floor connections and compare it with the KE of the falling block:
The total load that the gusset connections at the perimeter could support would be about (236/2)*100 kips = 11,800 kips = 5.3E7 N.
If the connections at the core end had similar strength, an estimate of the total load that the main floor connections could support is 2*(5.3E7 N) = 1E8 N
Consider connections maintaining a force of 1E8 N as they were broken through a distance of 0.1 m, the approximate size of the connections. The energy to destroy all of the floor connections is:
E = 1E8 N * 0.1 m = 1E7 J = 0.01 GJ.
KE of the upper block of WTC1 after the first drop = 1.4 GJ
E/KE = 0.01/1.4 = 0.007
The connections were able to provide 12 kips per column to pull in the walls but their 100 kip strength had little effect on inhibiting the collapse once it started.
NIST Appendix B states the load to fail a gusset plate of a floor connection at the perimeter wall was on the order of 100 kips or 4.5E5 N. That's an order of magnitude higher than the pull-in force. The connections were able to pull in the wall.
Estimate the energy to fail the 100-kip floor connections and compare it with the KE of the falling block:
The total load that the gusset connections at the perimeter could support would be about (236/2)*100 kips = 11,800 kips = 5.3E7 N.
If the connections at the core end had similar strength, an estimate of the total load that the main floor connections could support is 2*(5.3E7 N) = 1E8 N
Consider connections maintaining a force of 1E8 N as they were broken through a distance of 0.1 m, the approximate size of the connections. The energy to destroy all of the floor connections is:
E = 1E8 N * 0.1 m = 1E7 J = 0.01 GJ.
KE of the upper block of WTC1 after the first drop = 1.4 GJ
E/KE = 0.01/1.4 = 0.007
The connections were able to provide 12 kips per column to pull in the walls but their 100 kip strength had little effect on inhibiting the collapse once it started.
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 12 2007, 01:31 AM)
reasonwhy, core columns in the impact zones had varying degrees of damage.
Some were severed, some were deformed, some were thermally and or chemically degraded, and those that remained intact were in turn subject to increase loading.
The multi floor impact and fire damage in each tower eventually overcame the reserve capacity of the degraded core, perimeter, and floor assemblies in the impact zones which led to local and global collapse.
You should know know and understand the drill by now.
The weaknesses in the core columns outside the impact areas were the splices.
The splices were intended to index the columns in place for construction.
Coupled with the floor and beam assemblies, the splices would not be subject to overloading, but take away that bracing in a collapse scenario, be it CD or gravity driven, those splices become vulnerable.
Why is it that the engineers that designed and built the towers understand these vulnerabilities, but you are unable or unwilling to?
They should at least make shills read the NIST report.
The column splices were 3-4 feet above the floors (every third floor all on the same floor) and not coupled with the floor and beam assemblies.
The rest of your shill handbook facts are basically correct ( I haven’t heard shill's talk about chemically degraded, thats an anomaly your supposed to ignore) matching the NIST report.
Your answer has nothing to do with my questions to DBB, so you must have a one post per day requirement.
Watch this video RS brought to my attention and you can learn how the great scientist at NIST calculated the collapse. They watched the videos and decided "global collapse ensued".
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...01&q=John+Gross
Some were severed, some were deformed, some were thermally and or chemically degraded, and those that remained intact were in turn subject to increase loading.
The multi floor impact and fire damage in each tower eventually overcame the reserve capacity of the degraded core, perimeter, and floor assemblies in the impact zones which led to local and global collapse.
You should know know and understand the drill by now.
The weaknesses in the core columns outside the impact areas were the splices.
The splices were intended to index the columns in place for construction.
Coupled with the floor and beam assemblies, the splices would not be subject to overloading, but take away that bracing in a collapse scenario, be it CD or gravity driven, those splices become vulnerable.
Why is it that the engineers that designed and built the towers understand these vulnerabilities, but you are unable or unwilling to?
They should at least make shills read the NIST report.
The column splices were 3-4 feet above the floors (every third floor all on the same floor) and not coupled with the floor and beam assemblies.
The rest of your shill handbook facts are basically correct ( I haven’t heard shill's talk about chemically degraded, thats an anomaly your supposed to ignore) matching the NIST report.
Your answer has nothing to do with my questions to DBB, so you must have a one post per day requirement.
Watch this video RS brought to my attention and you can learn how the great scientist at NIST calculated the collapse. They watched the videos and decided "global collapse ensued".
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...01&q=John+Gross
QUOTE (newton+Feb 12 2007, 01:44 AM)
shelf-life, shmelf-life
bombs planted(tnt) in the SIXTIES. swiss army.
So NOW you think the explosives were built in?
WOW, talk about planning ahead.
Is there ANY Theory SO SILLY that CT'ers WON'T embrace?
Probably not.
Arthur
bombs planted(tnt) in the SIXTIES. swiss army.
So NOW you think the explosives were built in?
WOW, talk about planning ahead.
Is there ANY Theory SO SILLY that CT'ers WON'T embrace?
Probably not.
Arthur
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 12 2007, 12:29 PM)
They should at least make shills read the NIST report.
The column splices were 3-4 feet above the floors (every third floor all on the same floor) and not coupled with the floor and beam assemblies.
The floor and beam assemblies are what give the splices the majority of their stability, not the splice connections themselves.
Judging by your comments, you haven't heard or understood most of the topics discussed in this thread.
Judging by your comments, you haven't heard or understood most of the topics discussed in this thread.
Your answer has nothing to do with my questions to DBB, so you must have a one post per day requirement.
My answer had everything to do with your question, you're just too dense to realize it.
The collapse initiation wasn't about a single floor, damage was done on multiple floors.
Damage in one area translated to stresses in others, why is that so hard for you to understand?
If you actually read and studied the numerous posts and articles that you've been exposed to in these threads, you wouldn't be continually making these foolish comments.
The column splices were 3-4 feet above the floors (every third floor all on the same floor) and not coupled with the floor and beam assemblies.
The floor and beam assemblies are what give the splices the majority of their stability, not the splice connections themselves.
QUOTE
The rest of your shill handbook facts are basically correct ( I haven’t heard shills talk about chemically degraded, thats an anomaly your supposed to ignore) matching the NIST report.
Judging by your comments, you haven't heard or understood most of the topics discussed in this thread.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The rest of your shill handbook facts are basically correct ( I haven’t heard shills talk about chemically degraded, thats an anomaly your supposed to ignore) matching the NIST report. |
Judging by your comments, you haven't heard or understood most of the topics discussed in this thread.
Your answer has nothing to do with my questions to DBB, so you must have a one post per day requirement.
My answer had everything to do with your question, you're just too dense to realize it.
The collapse initiation wasn't about a single floor, damage was done on multiple floors.
Damage in one area translated to stresses in others, why is that so hard for you to understand?
If you actually read and studied the numerous posts and articles that you've been exposed to in these threads, you wouldn't be continually making these foolish comments.
lozenge124,
I can understand why you have problems with the stepwise model and the usage of the E1 value.
Using an E1 value (that is 0.6GJ) for one storey implies that there is no energy transferred through the columns. I forgot who but someone called it a tuning-fork that is able to transfer sound. It almost looks like measuring with two standards because if a crashing plane transfers a lot of its impact energy the same could be done for a toppling couple of stories. As I said before I’m no fracture wave specialist but both the block and the plane are very extremely random situations. I remember from years ago that a random wave can be thought of as a sum of sinus waves (Fourier) and what makes the one different than the other?
An other thing to mention is that the choice of a E1 value per storey is a totally arbitrary choice. Of course the floors have a distance h and the stepwise momentum model uses this but the E1 value is far from trivial. If it can travel two stories for both the remaining building and the falling block (assume a storey in vacuum) then it will be absorbed and wtc1 wouldn’t collapse. An other interesting consequence of the pancake theory is that if the block of upper 14 floors falls on the next floor and there was an extra floor 1 meter under the falling block (and not 3.8 meter) then there would be no global collapse.
It’s amazing to hear that NIST really only did collapse initiation, isn’t that the least interesting thing ? If one says “we saw it falling after collapse initiation, and we only studied the cause of that” then a ***** like me says “I saw collapse initiation why would you study that”. And nobody expected this kind of global collapse, it’s highly relevant.
I can understand why you have problems with the stepwise model and the usage of the E1 value.
Using an E1 value (that is 0.6GJ) for one storey implies that there is no energy transferred through the columns. I forgot who but someone called it a tuning-fork that is able to transfer sound. It almost looks like measuring with two standards because if a crashing plane transfers a lot of its impact energy the same could be done for a toppling couple of stories. As I said before I’m no fracture wave specialist but both the block and the plane are very extremely random situations. I remember from years ago that a random wave can be thought of as a sum of sinus waves (Fourier) and what makes the one different than the other?
An other thing to mention is that the choice of a E1 value per storey is a totally arbitrary choice. Of course the floors have a distance h and the stepwise momentum model uses this but the E1 value is far from trivial. If it can travel two stories for both the remaining building and the falling block (assume a storey in vacuum) then it will be absorbed and wtc1 wouldn’t collapse. An other interesting consequence of the pancake theory is that if the block of upper 14 floors falls on the next floor and there was an extra floor 1 meter under the falling block (and not 3.8 meter) then there would be no global collapse.
It’s amazing to hear that NIST really only did collapse initiation, isn’t that the least interesting thing ? If one says “we saw it falling after collapse initiation, and we only studied the cause of that” then a ***** like me says “I saw collapse initiation why would you study that”. And nobody expected this kind of global collapse, it’s highly relevant.
einsteen
No, it is the ONLY thing for which NIST was charged to find out. The scientists at NIST recognized that once the collapse was initiated there was no form of resistence left in the bottom portion of the building able to stop or even appreciably slow the collapse. Determining the likely cause of the collapse initiation was to the scientists at NIST(and to any others who understand the forces involved)determining the reason the buildings totally collapsed.
In the FAA investigations of an aircraft accident they only go to the point where "the aircraft impacted the ground". To them it seems unnecessary to go into great detail about how "the cockpit walls failed, leading to overstress of the bulkheads between frame 3 and 4....." because anyone who really understands the forces involved already knows that.
It is the same thing with "collapse initiation'. Anyone who understands the forces involved understands that once the collapse begins it will continue to the ground.
Unfortunately it is never wise to underestimate the ignorance and unwillingness to learn of a large segment of the American public, thus the "troothers" and their endless, mindless BS.
Grumpy
QUOTE
It’s amazing to hear that NIST really only did collapse initiation, isn’t that the least interesting thing ?
No, it is the ONLY thing for which NIST was charged to find out. The scientists at NIST recognized that once the collapse was initiated there was no form of resistence left in the bottom portion of the building able to stop or even appreciably slow the collapse. Determining the likely cause of the collapse initiation was to the scientists at NIST(and to any others who understand the forces involved)determining the reason the buildings totally collapsed.
In the FAA investigations of an aircraft accident they only go to the point where "the aircraft impacted the ground". To them it seems unnecessary to go into great detail about how "the cockpit walls failed, leading to overstress of the bulkheads between frame 3 and 4....." because anyone who really understands the forces involved already knows that.
It is the same thing with "collapse initiation'. Anyone who understands the forces involved understands that once the collapse begins it will continue to the ground.
Unfortunately it is never wise to underestimate the ignorance and unwillingness to learn of a large segment of the American public, thus the "troothers" and their endless, mindless BS.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 12 2007, 07:43 AM)
einsteen
No, it is the ONLY thing for which NIST was charged to find out. The scientists at NIST recognized that once the collapse was initiated there was no form of resistence left in the bottom portion of the building able to stop or even appreciably slow the collapse. Determining the likely cause of the collapse initiation was to the scientists at NIST(and to any others who understand the forces involved)determining the reason the buildings totally collapsed.
In the FAA investigations of an aircraft accident they only go to the point where "the aircraft impacted the ground". To them it seems unnecessary to go into great detail about how "the cockpit walls failed, leading to overstress of the bulkheads between frame 3 and 4....." because anyone who really understands the forces involved already knows that.
It is the same thing with "collapse initiation'. Anyone who understands the forces involved understands that once the collapse begins it will continue to the ground.
Unfortunately it is never wise to underestimate the ignorance and unwillingness to learn of a large segment of the American public, thus the "troothers" and their endless, mindless BS.
Grumpy
We need the Grumpster BS meter!
NIST had four objectives from there website:
It says nothing about collapse initiation.
No, it is the ONLY thing for which NIST was charged to find out. The scientists at NIST recognized that once the collapse was initiated there was no form of resistence left in the bottom portion of the building able to stop or even appreciably slow the collapse. Determining the likely cause of the collapse initiation was to the scientists at NIST(and to any others who understand the forces involved)determining the reason the buildings totally collapsed.
In the FAA investigations of an aircraft accident they only go to the point where "the aircraft impacted the ground". To them it seems unnecessary to go into great detail about how "the cockpit walls failed, leading to overstress of the bulkheads between frame 3 and 4....." because anyone who really understands the forces involved already knows that.
It is the same thing with "collapse initiation'. Anyone who understands the forces involved understands that once the collapse begins it will continue to the ground.
Unfortunately it is never wise to underestimate the ignorance and unwillingness to learn of a large segment of the American public, thus the "troothers" and their endless, mindless BS.
Grumpy
We need the Grumpster BS meter!
NIST had four objectives from there website:
QUOTE
Objectives:
The primary objectives of the NIST-led technical investigation of the WTC disaster are to:
1. Determine why and how WTC 1 and 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed;
2. Determine why the injuries and fatalities were so high or low depending on location, including all technical aspects of fire protection, occupant behavior, evacuation, and emergency response;
3. Determine what procedures and practices were used in the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of WTC 1, 2, and 7; and
4. Identify, as specifically as possible, areas in building and fire codes, standards, and practices that are still in use and warrant revision.
The primary objectives of the NIST-led technical investigation of the WTC disaster are to:
1. Determine why and how WTC 1 and 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed;
2. Determine why the injuries and fatalities were so high or low depending on location, including all technical aspects of fire protection, occupant behavior, evacuation, and emergency response;
3. Determine what procedures and practices were used in the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of WTC 1, 2, and 7; and
4. Identify, as specifically as possible, areas in building and fire codes, standards, and practices that are still in use and warrant revision.
It says nothing about collapse initiation.
reasonwhy
"1. Determine why and how WTC 1 and 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed;"
As I explained, once the aircraft contacted the ground anyone with any sense would know what was going to happen next.
By the same token, once collapse initiated anyone with any sense would know it would continue to completion. I take it you are not among those???
Grumpy
Replies: 14794
Views: 574275 Daily News 3/7/2002
WTC Probe Ills Bared By PAUL H.B. SHIN Daily News Staff Writer
WASHINGTON
An inquiry into exactly what caused the twin towers to collapse after they were hit by hijacked jetliners may have been undermined by the hasty recycling of steel wreckage that could hold vital clues, experts told Congress yesterday.
About 80% of the structural steel from the World Trade Center was scrapped without being examined by even one fire expert, mostly because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage as evidence, the experts said.
... "The lack of significant amounts of steel for examination will make it difficult, if not impossible, to make a definitive statement as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse," said Glenn Corbett, a fire science expert from John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan who testified before a House Science Committee inquiry into the collapse and the ensuing investigation.
"The current World Trade Center disaster inquiry has exposed a gaping hole in the way that we investigate disasters," he said.
PA Wanted a Waiver
The lead investigator in the case, Gene Corley of the American Society of Civil Engineers, said the Port Authority refused to hand over blueprints for the twin towers - crucial for evaluating the wreckage - until he signed a waiver saying his team would not use the plans in a lawsuit against the agency.
"This is the first time I have signed something like that," Corley said, setting off a wave of angry comments from members of Congress and outcries from an audience made up mostly of relatives of victims of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.
Corley leads a team of engineering experts empaneled by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, but his team lacks the power to subpoena witnesses or order the preservation of evidence.
"Where does the buck stop on this investigation?" asked Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-Brooklyn).
Weiner's query was followed by a round of conflicting testimony by officials from FEMA and other federal agencies about exactly who is in charge of the inquiry.
Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R-Utica), chairman of the committee, said the confusion points to a need to define which agency will take the lead in investigating future collapses.
"No one is sure what powers the federal government can exercise. No one is sure of the scope of the investigation," he said. "That has to be fixed right away."
Boehlert's committee is expected to recommend the creation of a group like the National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates plane and railroad crashes.
The group, tentatively dubbed the National Construction Safety Board, would likely be a branch of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is one of the groups probing the Trade Center collapse.
Victims' relatives said those measures would be a step in the right direction.
"We want at least the same level of investigation as a plane crash," said Sally Regenhard, whose son, Christian, 28, a probationary firefighter, died in the collapse.
--------------------------------- NY Times 3/7/2002
BUILDING STANDARDS
Mismanagement Muddled Collapse Inquiry, House Panel Says
By ERIC LIPTON
WASHINGTON, March 6 - Members of Congress today criticized the investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center, saying it had been mismanaged, far too slow to start and hampered by a lack of cooperation by New York City and other government agencies controlling the disaster site.
"No one is in charge, no one is sure what powers the federal government can exercise, no one is sure of the scope of an investigation," said Representative Sherwood L. Boehlert, a Republican from New York and the House Science Committee's chairman. "And that has to be fixed right away."
Representatives from the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other federal officials, who faced the criticism during testimony before the committee today, conceded that the investigation had been plagued by financing problems and confusion over authority almost from the start.
The hearing, the first to be held by Congress on the trade center collapse, concluded with an agreement by Bush administration officials and the committee members that a new entity like the National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates transportation accidents and crashes, is needed to avoid such problems in inquiries into building collapses.
At least $40 million in additional federal aid is also needed to expand the World Trade Center inquiry, the House members said. To date, approximately $600,000 has been invested by the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
Expanding the inquiry, House members and the leaders of the inquiry said, could help investigators determine whether there were weaknesses in the trade center towers that exist in other skyscrapers.
There is also an urgent need, the investigators and House members agreed, to evaluate the fire-prevention systems in the building as well as the Fire Department's response.
"As engineers, as architects, as builders, as firefighters, as citizens who occupy high-rises, and as those who are in the position to help those citizens, there are critical questions regarding this collapse and they need answering," Glenn P. Corbett, a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and an expert on firefighting, testified today. "There are many high-rise structures in the United States and more on the way that demand that we learn from the disaster of 9/11 and apply the lessons learned."
The most intense criticism from both Republican and Democratic House members centered on the confusion over just who is overseeing the investigation - the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the National Institute of Standards and Technology or the American Society of Civil Engineers.
At one point, Representative Anthony D. Weiner, a Democrat from New York City, asked for the official in charge to raise his hand, and two men, and then three appeared to do so. "We have very serious problems here," added Representative John B. Larson, a Connecticut Democrat.
The lack of clear authority has had unfortunate consequences, the House members said. The Giuliani administration started to send World Trade Center steel off to recycling yards before investigators could examine it to determine whether it might hold crucial clues as to why the buildings fell. The full investigative team set up by FEMA was not allowed to enter ground zero to collect other potentially critical evidence in the weeks after the attack, and it did not get a copy of the World Trade Center blueprints until early January, a delay House members found infuriating.
"The delay in the receipt of the plans did somewhat hinder the team's ability to confirm their understanding of the buildings," said Dr. W. Gene Corley, a structural engineer leading the investigative committee organized by FEMA.
A Port Authority spokesman defended the agency, saying that building plans had been given to federal officials within a week of the attack and that the agency was cooperating fully with the inquiry.
The federal officials who testified yesterday - Dr. Arden L. Bement Jr., the director of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, and Robert F. Shea, the acting administrator of the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Insurance and Mitigation Administration - repeatedly nodded their agreement.
In response to criticism from one committee member, Mr. Shea said, "Frankly, I agree with you. There are many things in hindsight we would have done differently."
The problem, they said, was the lack of clear authority in federal law and financing. None of the investigators, for example, had subpoena power, meaning that they could not order the city to stop sending the steel off for recycling or demand a copy of the building blueprints.
The criticism and the admissions by the federal officials brought little relief to the more than two dozen parents, spouses and other relatives of those victims in the Sept. 11 attacks, who filled many of the hearing room seats, some holding photographs of lost loved ones.
"It has been six months, and nobody knows who is responsible for what. It is a disgrace," said Russell Mercer of Queens, whose son-in-law, Scott Kopytko, 32, was a victim.
But the federal officials and leaders from the American Society of Civil Engineers, which is coordinating the initial investigation, all said a great deal remained to be done.
Original Publication Date: 3/7/02
RS
QUOTE
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Objectives: The primary objectives of the NIST-led technical investigation of the WTC disaster are to: 1. Determine why and how WTC 1 and 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed; 2. Determine why the injuries and fatalities were so high or low depending on location, including all technical aspects of fire protection, occupant behavior, evacuation, and emergency response; 3. Determine what procedures and practices were used in the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of WTC 1, 2, and 7; and 4. Identify, as specifically as possible, areas in building and fire codes, standards, and practices that are still in use and warrant revision. It says nothing about collapse initiation. |
"1. Determine why and how WTC 1 and 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed;"
As I explained, once the aircraft contacted the ground anyone with any sense would know what was going to happen next.
By the same token, once collapse initiated anyone with any sense would know it would continue to completion. I take it you are not among those???
Grumpy
Grumpy, we are talking about 416 meter high buildings that totally collapse. Collapse initiation is by definition the first movement of the collapse. It is absolutely absurd only to study that part because then you have no proof that the collapse results in a total collapse. The fact that enough potential energy is stored is no proof of global collapse, it is only a requirement. Further NIST should study the effect of strain energy, traveling plastic waves, whatever and all the complex issues involved here where even the bozo’s here have difficulties with. If you don’t know how this will behave you strictly cannot say anything about the global collapse. This is no crashing plane, this is a standing building that starts vanishing at t=0, no I don’t say into dust.
reasonwhy --- There is no evidence for what happened to core columns at collapse initiation. However, it is easy to determine that, for WTC 1, the average DCR for surviving core columns below the impact zone rose to about 2. Thus some inelastic behavior occurred. For example, the core columns below the top block buckled. Once sufficiently buckled the connections break and the top block is no longer connected to the bottom.
Replies: 14794
Views: 574275 Daily News 3/7/2002
WTC Probe Ills Bared By PAUL H.B. SHIN Daily News Staff Writer
WASHINGTON
An inquiry into exactly what caused the twin towers to collapse after they were hit by hijacked jetliners may have been undermined by the hasty recycling of steel wreckage that could hold vital clues, experts told Congress yesterday.
About 80% of the structural steel from the World Trade Center was scrapped without being examined by even one fire expert, mostly because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage as evidence, the experts said.
... "The lack of significant amounts of steel for examination will make it difficult, if not impossible, to make a definitive statement as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse," said Glenn Corbett, a fire science expert from John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan who testified before a House Science Committee inquiry into the collapse and the ensuing investigation.
"The current World Trade Center disaster inquiry has exposed a gaping hole in the way that we investigate disasters," he said.
PA Wanted a Waiver
The lead investigator in the case, Gene Corley of the American Society of Civil Engineers, said the Port Authority refused to hand over blueprints for the twin towers - crucial for evaluating the wreckage - until he signed a waiver saying his team would not use the plans in a lawsuit against the agency.
"This is the first time I have signed something like that," Corley said, setting off a wave of angry comments from members of Congress and outcries from an audience made up mostly of relatives of victims of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.
Corley leads a team of engineering experts empaneled by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, but his team lacks the power to subpoena witnesses or order the preservation of evidence.
"Where does the buck stop on this investigation?" asked Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-Brooklyn).
Weiner's query was followed by a round of conflicting testimony by officials from FEMA and other federal agencies about exactly who is in charge of the inquiry.
Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R-Utica), chairman of the committee, said the confusion points to a need to define which agency will take the lead in investigating future collapses.
"No one is sure what powers the federal government can exercise. No one is sure of the scope of the investigation," he said. "That has to be fixed right away."
Boehlert's committee is expected to recommend the creation of a group like the National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates plane and railroad crashes.
The group, tentatively dubbed the National Construction Safety Board, would likely be a branch of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is one of the groups probing the Trade Center collapse.
Victims' relatives said those measures would be a step in the right direction.
"We want at least the same level of investigation as a plane crash," said Sally Regenhard, whose son, Christian, 28, a probationary firefighter, died in the collapse.
--------------------------------- NY Times 3/7/2002
BUILDING STANDARDS
Mismanagement Muddled Collapse Inquiry, House Panel Says
By ERIC LIPTON
WASHINGTON, March 6 - Members of Congress today criticized the investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center, saying it had been mismanaged, far too slow to start and hampered by a lack of cooperation by New York City and other government agencies controlling the disaster site.
"No one is in charge, no one is sure what powers the federal government can exercise, no one is sure of the scope of an investigation," said Representative Sherwood L. Boehlert, a Republican from New York and the House Science Committee's chairman. "And that has to be fixed right away."
Representatives from the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other federal officials, who faced the criticism during testimony before the committee today, conceded that the investigation had been plagued by financing problems and confusion over authority almost from the start.
The hearing, the first to be held by Congress on the trade center collapse, concluded with an agreement by Bush administration officials and the committee members that a new entity like the National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates transportation accidents and crashes, is needed to avoid such problems in inquiries into building collapses.
At least $40 million in additional federal aid is also needed to expand the World Trade Center inquiry, the House members said. To date, approximately $600,000 has been invested by the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
Expanding the inquiry, House members and the leaders of the inquiry said, could help investigators determine whether there were weaknesses in the trade center towers that exist in other skyscrapers.
There is also an urgent need, the investigators and House members agreed, to evaluate the fire-prevention systems in the building as well as the Fire Department's response.
"As engineers, as architects, as builders, as firefighters, as citizens who occupy high-rises, and as those who are in the position to help those citizens, there are critical questions regarding this collapse and they need answering," Glenn P. Corbett, a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and an expert on firefighting, testified today. "There are many high-rise structures in the United States and more on the way that demand that we learn from the disaster of 9/11 and apply the lessons learned."
The most intense criticism from both Republican and Democratic House members centered on the confusion over just who is overseeing the investigation - the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the National Institute of Standards and Technology or the American Society of Civil Engineers.
At one point, Representative Anthony D. Weiner, a Democrat from New York City, asked for the official in charge to raise his hand, and two men, and then three appeared to do so. "We have very serious problems here," added Representative John B. Larson, a Connecticut Democrat.
The lack of clear authority has had unfortunate consequences, the House members said. The Giuliani administration started to send World Trade Center steel off to recycling yards before investigators could examine it to determine whether it might hold crucial clues as to why the buildings fell. The full investigative team set up by FEMA was not allowed to enter ground zero to collect other potentially critical evidence in the weeks after the attack, and it did not get a copy of the World Trade Center blueprints until early January, a delay House members found infuriating.
"The delay in the receipt of the plans did somewhat hinder the team's ability to confirm their understanding of the buildings," said Dr. W. Gene Corley, a structural engineer leading the investigative committee organized by FEMA.
A Port Authority spokesman defended the agency, saying that building plans had been given to federal officials within a week of the attack and that the agency was cooperating fully with the inquiry.
The federal officials who testified yesterday - Dr. Arden L. Bement Jr., the director of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, and Robert F. Shea, the acting administrator of the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Insurance and Mitigation Administration - repeatedly nodded their agreement.
In response to criticism from one committee member, Mr. Shea said, "Frankly, I agree with you. There are many things in hindsight we would have done differently."
The problem, they said, was the lack of clear authority in federal law and financing. None of the investigators, for example, had subpoena power, meaning that they could not order the city to stop sending the steel off for recycling or demand a copy of the building blueprints.
The criticism and the admissions by the federal officials brought little relief to the more than two dozen parents, spouses and other relatives of those victims in the Sept. 11 attacks, who filled many of the hearing room seats, some holding photographs of lost loved ones.
"It has been six months, and nobody knows who is responsible for what. It is a disgrace," said Russell Mercer of Queens, whose son-in-law, Scott Kopytko, 32, was a victim.
But the federal officials and leaders from the American Society of Civil Engineers, which is coordinating the initial investigation, all said a great deal remained to be done.
Original Publication Date: 3/7/02
RS
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 12 2007, 05:26 AM)
The floor and beam assemblies are what give the splices the majority of their stability, not the splice connections themselves.
Judging by your comments, you haven't heard or understood most of the topics discussed in this thread.
My answer had everything to do with your question, you're just too dense to realize it.
The collapse initiation wasn't about a single floor, damage was done on multiple floors.
Damage in one area translated to stresses in others, why is that so hard for you to understand?
If you actually read and studied the numerous posts and articles that you've been exposed to in these threads, you wouldn't be continually making these foolish comments.
Lets ask the readers who makes foolish comments?
If you want to have a positive impact on the state of the planet, become an advocate for reproductive sterilization and the promotion of homosexuality.
Why don’t you just ask everyone to kill themselves so the elite can have the planet to themselves?
You must be a NWO shill from hell!
Judging by your comments, you haven't heard or understood most of the topics discussed in this thread.
My answer had everything to do with your question, you're just too dense to realize it.
The collapse initiation wasn't about a single floor, damage was done on multiple floors.
Damage in one area translated to stresses in others, why is that so hard for you to understand?
If you actually read and studied the numerous posts and articles that you've been exposed to in these threads, you wouldn't be continually making these foolish comments.
Lets ask the readers who makes foolish comments?
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 12 2007, 04:25 AM)
If you want to have a positive impact on the state of the planet, become an advocate for reproductive sterilization and the promotion of homosexuality.
Why don’t you just ask everyone to kill themselves so the elite can have the planet to themselves?
You must be a NWO shill from hell!
einsteen
Most scientists are in the habit of not repeating the obvious. They expect their collegues to understand the totality of that they are speaking to. Unfortunately that leaves most laymen sitting in the dust of their passage in total confusion. That is not really a problem if those laymen make at least an attempt to understand by asking pertinent questions and working through the details the scientists did not cover.
But when those laymen start trying to speculate without understanding or with preconcieved outcomes based not on science, but on their "feelings" or politics you get things like the "troother" movement. There is no TRUTH in the "troother" movement, it does not use science, but perverts that science into the attempt to support their preconceptions.
So I have no objection to the detailed study of the series of events that took place after the point of initiation, but I do understand that once the building entered that failure mode there was nothing available to stop it from totally collapsing and no additional entities(explosives, invisible ninja thermite fairies, etc) were required, nor were they used.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Grumpy, we are talking about 416 meter high buildings that totally collapse. Collapse initiation is by definition the first movement of the collapse. It is absolutely absurd only to study that part because then you have no proof that the collapse results in a total collapse. The fact that enough potential energy is stored is no proof of global collapse, it is only a requirement. Further NIST should study the effect of strain energy, traveling plastic waves, whatever and all the complex issues involved here where even the bozo’s here have difficulties with. If you don’t know how this will behave you strictly cannot say anything about the global collapse. This is no crashing plane, this is a standing building that starts vanishing at t=0, no I don’t say into dust.
Most scientists are in the habit of not repeating the obvious. They expect their collegues to understand the totality of that they are speaking to. Unfortunately that leaves most laymen sitting in the dust of their passage in total confusion. That is not really a problem if those laymen make at least an attempt to understand by asking pertinent questions and working through the details the scientists did not cover.
But when those laymen start trying to speculate without understanding or with preconcieved outcomes based not on science, but on their "feelings" or politics you get things like the "troother" movement. There is no TRUTH in the "troother" movement, it does not use science, but perverts that science into the attempt to support their preconceptions.
So I have no objection to the detailed study of the series of events that took place after the point of initiation, but I do understand that once the building entered that failure mode there was nothing available to stop it from totally collapsing and no additional entities(explosives, invisible ninja thermite fairies, etc) were required, nor were they used.
Grumpy
reasonless
Actually, looked at in a non-bigotted, non-judgemental way Carapus's statement is not foolish in the least. There ARE too many people for the Earth to sustain indefinetly, only our scientific methods of food production are preventing mass starvation right now.
So, no, it is still you, reasonless, who makes the most, foolish as well as the most foolish comments. Congratulations.
Grumpy
QUOTE
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Lets ask the readers who makes foolish comments? (Capracus @ Feb 12 2007, 04:25 AM) If you want to have a positive impact on the state of the planet, become an advocate for reproductive sterilization and the promotion of homosexuality. |
Actually, looked at in a non-bigotted, non-judgemental way Carapus's statement is not foolish in the least. There ARE too many people for the Earth to sustain indefinetly, only our scientific methods of food production are preventing mass starvation right now.
So, no, it is still you, reasonless, who makes the most, foolish as well as the most foolish comments. Congratulations.
Grumpy
Reasonwhy:
"Lets ask the readers who makes foolish comments?"
Here's what I would call a foolish comment from YOU, dear Reasonwhy:
"Thanks Greening, DBB ,that’s enough Pseudoscience for today"
Please explain what "pseudoscience" you were referring to, or perhaps you just can't handle a little math!
NF
"Lets ask the readers who makes foolish comments?"
Here's what I would call a foolish comment from YOU, dear Reasonwhy:
"Thanks Greening, DBB ,that’s enough Pseudoscience for today"
Please explain what "pseudoscience" you were referring to, or perhaps you just can't handle a little math!
NF
A.N. Kounadis paper again ---
I previously posted the full reference to this paper on nonlinear dynamic buckling. Let us review the so-called cantilever model. This is a double inverted pendulum with nonlinear rotational springs and also with small dashpot damping at the two pivots. The cantilever is imperfect in that, at rest, both rods are at small angles. The bottom one varies from the vertical by e_2 = 0.05 (about 3 degrees of arc). The one in the middle varies from straight by e_1 = -0.03 (about 1.5 degrees of arc in the other direction).
Using a cubic model for the spring stiffnesses, for critical dynamic sudden load of infinite duration, the bottom angle proceeds to 0.335 (about 19 degrees) and then appears to be stable for a long time. But it is not. For 45 periods of the undamped system, it undergoes nonlinear oscillations of very small magnitude and then escapes, i.e., buckles.
Using a quadratic model for the spring stiffness and the same e_2 but for e_1 = -0.031314 there is much the same behavior, (just 17 periods) although the motions are said to be 'chaoslike'.
These nonlinear models for the rotational springs are attempts to match the actual stress/strain diagrams for steel. This cantilever then approximately matches the conditions of the tops of the core in both towers, or else consider the matter column by column, floor by floor. The bottom pin and spring is to represent a connection and the pin and spring in the middle is to represent a weak point in the column member subject to some kinking (some call this knuckling).
Now for WTC 1 the top lent slightly to the south before collapse initiation. Two seconds before collapse initiation there were sudden puffs of smoke observed coming out of at least two sides of the building at the collapse initiation level. For NIST this is just a 'noted observation' but it is clear that some significant damage must have occurred inside. The above cantilever model of Kounadis is now invoked to help explain the pause before collapse actually initiates. It is only an analogy...
I previously posted the full reference to this paper on nonlinear dynamic buckling. Let us review the so-called cantilever model. This is a double inverted pendulum with nonlinear rotational springs and also with small dashpot damping at the two pivots. The cantilever is imperfect in that, at rest, both rods are at small angles. The bottom one varies from the vertical by e_2 = 0.05 (about 3 degrees of arc). The one in the middle varies from straight by e_1 = -0.03 (about 1.5 degrees of arc in the other direction).
Using a cubic model for the spring stiffnesses, for critical dynamic sudden load of infinite duration, the bottom angle proceeds to 0.335 (about 19 degrees) and then appears to be stable for a long time. But it is not. For 45 periods of the undamped system, it undergoes nonlinear oscillations of very small magnitude and then escapes, i.e., buckles.
Using a quadratic model for the spring stiffness and the same e_2 but for e_1 = -0.031314 there is much the same behavior, (just 17 periods) although the motions are said to be 'chaoslike'.
These nonlinear models for the rotational springs are attempts to match the actual stress/strain diagrams for steel. This cantilever then approximately matches the conditions of the tops of the core in both towers, or else consider the matter column by column, floor by floor. The bottom pin and spring is to represent a connection and the pin and spring in the middle is to represent a weak point in the column member subject to some kinking (some call this knuckling).
Now for WTC 1 the top lent slightly to the south before collapse initiation. Two seconds before collapse initiation there were sudden puffs of smoke observed coming out of at least two sides of the building at the collapse initiation level. For NIST this is just a 'noted observation' but it is clear that some significant damage must have occurred inside. The above cantilever model of Kounadis is now invoked to help explain the pause before collapse actually initiates. It is only an analogy...
Grumpy, this is not something like the mathematical principle of induction, this is an extremely complex nonlineair physical problem, you know much more about that than an amateur like me.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 12 2007, 09:28 AM)
reasonless
If you want to have a positive impact on the state of the planet, become an advocate for reproductive sterilization and the promotion of homosexuality.
Actually, looked at in a non-bigotted, non-judgemental way Carapus's statement is not foolish in the least. There ARE too many people for the Earth to sustain indefinetly, only our scientific methods of food production are preventing mass starvation right now.
So, no, it is still you, reasonless, who makes the most, foolish as well as the most foolish comments. Congratulations.
Grumpy
Well then Grumster, for the good of the planet I hope all the fools that believe this BS “practice what they preach”. Why don’t you spread the word to all the OCT supporters and mankind will evolve faster and the world will be a better place to live.
Just stay the hell away from me!
Damn, this is sheer genius!!! Reasonwhy, man have I got a proposition for you! I know where a bunch of big planes are out here on the Mojave. I know I can fly one, Hanni did. OK, so here is what we do: We find out Controlled Demolitions bids, we lowball them by no less than 30%, to ensure contracts. Then, piece of cake, fuel em up get in the air, don't forget the parachute, and guide these bad boys into anything they want to have "globally collapsed". Dude we are ON IT !!! We could have done that landmark job for a third of what they charged and still walked away loaded. Man I'm glad I lurked on this thread. I'm awestruck by the big brains. I'm not worthy!!!
RS
Damn, this is sheer genius!!! Reasonwhy, man have I got a proposition for you! I know where a bunch of big planes are out here on the Mojave. I know I can fly one, Hanni did. OK, so here is what we do: We find out Controlled Demolitions bids, we lowball them by no less than 30%, to ensure contracts. Then, piece of cake, fuel em up get in the air, don't forget the parachute, and guide these bad boys into anything they want to have "globally collapsed". Dude we are ON IT !!! We could have done that landmark job for a third of what they charged and still walked away loaded. Man I'm glad I lurked on this thread. I'm awestruck by the big brains. I'm not worthy!!!
RS
You think you are going to be able to get out of a jet going 500 mph at an altitude of ~ 500 ft or so AND LIVE to collect payment?
Yeah, go for it.
And, you are right, you ARE not worthy.
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE ((Capracus @ Feb 12 2007+ 04:25 AM))
If you want to have a positive impact on the state of the planet, become an advocate for reproductive sterilization and the promotion of homosexuality.
Actually, looked at in a non-bigotted, non-judgemental way Carapus's statement is not foolish in the least. There ARE too many people for the Earth to sustain indefinetly, only our scientific methods of food production are preventing mass starvation right now.
So, no, it is still you, reasonless, who makes the most, foolish as well as the most foolish comments. Congratulations.
Grumpy
Well then Grumster, for the good of the planet I hope all the fools that believe this BS “practice what they preach”. Why don’t you spread the word to all the OCT supporters and mankind will evolve faster and the world will be a better place to live.
Just stay the hell away from me!
Comparing hypotheses for WTC 2 --- Here we ignore the known existence of massively greater resistance at the beamed floors, treating all floors equally over the 4.0 seconds of measured drops.
(1) crush-down differential equation solution (stretch=0.14): rms = 0.5085 m, best fit E1 = 412.13 J/kg
versus
(2) d = (1/2)at^2: rms = 0.6768, best fit a = 0.75g
Again we see that the crush-down equation gives the better fit to the data. But also note that in the acceleration only model, we obtain (3/4)g whereas for WTC 1 we obtained (2/3)g.
(1) crush-down differential equation solution (stretch=0.14): rms = 0.5085 m, best fit E1 = 412.13 J/kg
versus
(2) d = (1/2)at^2: rms = 0.6768, best fit a = 0.75g
Again we see that the crush-down equation gives the better fit to the data. But also note that in the acceleration only model, we obtain (3/4)g whereas for WTC 1 we obtained (2/3)g.
QUOTE (Capracus + Feb 12 2007, 04:25 AM)
If you want to have a positive impact on the state of the planet, become an advocate for reproductive sterilization and the promotion of homosexuality.
reasonwhy, I thought you would appreciate a world that had at least had some qualities in common with yourself.
reasonwhy, I thought you would appreciate a world that had at least had some qualities in common with yourself.
Map of 81st floor, WTC 2 --- NCSTAR1-5A Appendix B, Figure B-13, page 440 (144 ordinal).
Not clear from this just what portions Fuji Bank occupied, not where the batteries were located.
Not clear from this just what portions Fuji Bank occupied, not where the batteries were located.
einsteen
I myself have speculated on the series of events which followed collapse initiation, this is not the problem I see with the CTers arguements. Once the first floor(s) of columns buckled(in either tower) the energy applied to the top of the rest of the building was ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more that that required to buckle or destroy the next floor. In fact so little of the energy available was used for this purpose that the rest of the falling rubble ACCELERATED through that space and all the way into the ground, picking up more mass(and thus energy) the whole way. In fact I believe the floors below the damage zone made it into the basement and lost very little mass, mostly as the dust that we all saw follow the external frame downward.
Also, there is no evidence of explosives found anywhere in the entire complex, no seismic trace of explosions, no melted metal puddles(that I have seen documented), no ray guns from space, no non-nuclear nukes, no deliberate fuel/air explosions,.....IE none of the bogus claims of malfeasence by the CTers holds water in a physics context.
So it comes down to this...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Grumpy, this is not something like the mathematical principle of induction, this is an extremely complex nonlineair physical problem, you know much more about that than an amateur like me.
I myself have speculated on the series of events which followed collapse initiation, this is not the problem I see with the CTers arguements. Once the first floor(s) of columns buckled(in either tower) the energy applied to the top of the rest of the building was ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more that that required to buckle or destroy the next floor. In fact so little of the energy available was used for this purpose that the rest of the falling rubble ACCELERATED through that space and all the way into the ground, picking up more mass(and thus energy) the whole way. In fact I believe the floors below the damage zone made it into the basement and lost very little mass, mostly as the dust that we all saw follow the external frame downward.
Also, there is no evidence of explosives found anywhere in the entire complex, no seismic trace of explosions, no melted metal puddles(that I have seen documented), no ray guns from space, no non-nuclear nukes, no deliberate fuel/air explosions,.....IE none of the bogus claims of malfeasence by the CTers holds water in a physics context.
So it comes down to this...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
Grumpy
QUOTE
So it comes down to this...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
Damn, this is sheer genius!!! Reasonwhy, man have I got a proposition for you! I know where a bunch of big planes are out here on the Mojave. I know I can fly one, Hanni did. OK, so here is what we do: We find out Controlled Demolitions bids, we lowball them by no less than 30%, to ensure contracts. Then, piece of cake, fuel em up get in the air, don't forget the parachute, and guide these bad boys into anything they want to have "globally collapsed". Dude we are ON IT !!! We could have done that landmark job for a third of what they charged and still walked away loaded. Man I'm glad I lurked on this thread. I'm awestruck by the big brains. I'm not worthy!!!
RS
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Feb 12 2007, 08:23 PM)
Map of 81st floor, WTC 2 --- NCSTAR1-5A Appendix B, Figure B-13, page 440 (144 ordinal).
Not clear from this just what portions Fuji Bank occupied, not where the batteries were located.
81st floor, reinforced floor for batteries...never used batteries, from what I heard, "wall to wall" under a false floor...molten metal?
Not clear from this just what portions Fuji Bank occupied, not where the batteries were located.
81st floor, reinforced floor for batteries...never used batteries, from what I heard, "wall to wall" under a false floor...molten metal?
RW, hold up. I might have jumped the gun. Man, I know this looks airtight, but I'm starting to see a few cracks....
What if on one of our demo/global collapse jobs...... a "#7" happens....do you think we will be held liable?
QUOTE
So it comes down to this...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
What if on one of our demo/global collapse jobs...... a "#7" happens....do you think we will be held liable?
QUOTE (beijingyank+Feb 12 2007, 10:00 PM)
81st floor, reinforced floor for batteries...never used batteries, from what I heard, "wall to wall" under a false floor...molten metal?
As best I can make out, the north central room of floor 81 of WTC 2, between about columns 230 and 240, is over the beamed section of the floor supports. I suspect this portion, and only this portion, contained the large batteries for the computer UPS. These would have been on top of a false floor, installed to run the wiring.
Given the location, those batteries might possibly have formed some of the yellow slurry which intermittently poured out of WTC 2. Somebody should go back to re-check the various visuals if they wished to pursue this point.
As best I can make out, the north central room of floor 81 of WTC 2, between about columns 230 and 240, is over the beamed section of the floor supports. I suspect this portion, and only this portion, contained the large batteries for the computer UPS. These would have been on top of a false floor, installed to run the wiring.
Given the location, those batteries might possibly have formed some of the yellow slurry which intermittently poured out of WTC 2. Somebody should go back to re-check the various visuals if they wished to pursue this point.
Hey RW. Man...more bad news. I've done a little research and the cracks in this are getting bigger.
I assume in our business model, we will be able to ensure our customers "global collapse" 100% of the time. And we can give the neighbors on the next block the '#7 Especial'.
I've looked at the firebombing campaign on Tokyo in WWII, and it turns out there were alot of partial structures left. Same thing in major cities in Europe in the same war. I've tried looking at previous high rise building fires and.... same thing, at least partial structure remaining. Hell, buildings on the outskirts of the perimeter of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima epicenters still had some structure remaining.
This guy knows something I can't possibly fathom, but I think we should run with it anyway, and cash in on his genius. I'm puttin' the farm up and buyin' me a big plane. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, we can forget the parachutes, turns out these babies have been equiped with RC technology since the eighties. What luck.
QUOTE
So it comes down to this...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process
I assume in our business model, we will be able to ensure our customers "global collapse" 100% of the time. And we can give the neighbors on the next block the '#7 Especial'.
I've looked at the firebombing campaign on Tokyo in WWII, and it turns out there were alot of partial structures left. Same thing in major cities in Europe in the same war. I've tried looking at previous high rise building fires and.... same thing, at least partial structure remaining. Hell, buildings on the outskirts of the perimeter of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima epicenters still had some structure remaining.
This guy knows something I can't possibly fathom, but I think we should run with it anyway, and cash in on his genius. I'm puttin' the farm up and buyin' me a big plane. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, we can forget the parachutes, turns out these babies have been equiped with RC technology since the eighties. What luck.
My interpretation of Figure 5--15, NCSTAR1-6D, page 328 (392 ordinal), is that, at collapse initiation, the top block of WTC 2 was tilting at about 3 degrees and 40 minutes of arc.
That is a lot!
That is a lot!
QUOTE (roves shill+Feb 12 2007, 03:27 PM)
Hey RW. Man...more bad news. I've done a little research and the cracks in this are getting bigger.
I assume in our business model, we will be able to ensure our customers "global collapse" 100% of the time. And we can give the neighbors on the next block the '#7 Especial'.
I've looked at the firebombing campaign on Tokyo in WWII, and it turns out there were alot of partial structures left. Same thing in major cities in Europe in the same war. I've tried looking at previous high rise building fires and.... same thing, at least partial structure remaining. Hell, buildings on the outskirts of the perimeter of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima epicenters still had some structure remaining.
This guy knows something I can't possibly fathom, but I think we should run with it anyway, and cash in on his genius. I'm puttin' the farm up and buyin' me a big plane. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, we can forget the parachutes, turns out these babies have been equiped with RC technology since the eighties. What luck.
Roves shill, you neocons always do things the hard way (Like occupying Iraq when OBL is in Afghanistan). All you have to do is take a metal chop saw and cut Ľ of the columns at the top of the building (11 stories below the top has been proven to work). Then take a couple barrels of kerosene and pour them on the floor. Set it on fire and the hole building collapses in an hour.
We can use DBB mythical lateral forces to sever the columns if they want it completed in a hurry.
Of course there are a lot of partial structures left in tokyo and other cities. The term "Global colapse ensues " had not been discovered before 9/11 (those building were engineered to not "totally collapse").
I assume in our business model, we will be able to ensure our customers "global collapse" 100% of the time. And we can give the neighbors on the next block the '#7 Especial'.
I've looked at the firebombing campaign on Tokyo in WWII, and it turns out there were alot of partial structures left. Same thing in major cities in Europe in the same war. I've tried looking at previous high rise building fires and.... same thing, at least partial structure remaining. Hell, buildings on the outskirts of the perimeter of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima epicenters still had some structure remaining.
This guy knows something I can't possibly fathom, but I think we should run with it anyway, and cash in on his genius. I'm puttin' the farm up and buyin' me a big plane. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, we can forget the parachutes, turns out these babies have been equiped with RC technology since the eighties. What luck.
Roves shill, you neocons always do things the hard way (Like occupying Iraq when OBL is in Afghanistan).
All you have to do is take a metal chop saw and cut Ľ of the columns at the top of the building (11 stories below the top has been proven to work). Then take a couple barrels of kerosene and pour them on the floor. Set it on fire and the hole building collapses in an hour. We can use DBB mythical lateral forces to sever the columns if they want it completed in a hurry.
Of course there are a lot of partial structures left in tokyo and other cities. The term "Global colapse ensues " had not been discovered before 9/11 (those building were engineered to not "totally collapse").
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2007, 12:07 AM)
... DBB mythical lateral forces ...
Wrong again, reasonwhy. They're Sir Issac Newton's mythical forces.
Seriously, build yourself a little inverted pendulum held in an almost vertical position by a spring. Use a simple force gauge to determine the lateral force on the pin.
Alternately, do the easy trigonometry to compute this mythical force.
Wrong again, reasonwhy. They're Sir Issac Newton's mythical forces.
Seriously, build yourself a little inverted pendulum held in an almost vertical position by a spring. Use a simple force gauge to determine the lateral force on the pin.
Alternately, do the easy trigonometry to compute this mythical force.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2007, 12:07 AM)
Roves shill, you neocons always do things the hard way (Like occupying Iraq when OBL is in Afghanistan). All you have to do is take a metal chop saw and cut Ľ of the columns at the top of the building (11 stories below the top has been proven to work). Then take a couple barrels of kerosene and pour them on the floor. Set it on fire and the hole building collapses in an hour.
We can use DBB mythical lateral forces to sever the columns if they want it completed in a hurry.
Of course there are a lot of partial structures left in tokyo and other cities. The term "Global colapse ensues " had not been discovered before 9/11 (those building were engineered to not "totally collapse").
Yeah that's true, but planes are so much cooler. They freak people out. Then they get all submissive and let you do anything you want. Listen to their phone calls, open their mail, throw them in jail with no chance of legal representation. It is like food , it's all in the presentation. I'll start getting the T-shirts printed up.
All you have to do is take a metal chop saw and cut Ľ of the columns at the top of the building (11 stories below the top has been proven to work). Then take a couple barrels of kerosene and pour them on the floor. Set it on fire and the hole building collapses in an hour. We can use DBB mythical lateral forces to sever the columns if they want it completed in a hurry.
Of course there are a lot of partial structures left in tokyo and other cities. The term "Global colapse ensues " had not been discovered before 9/11 (those building were engineered to not "totally collapse").
Yeah that's true, but planes are so much cooler. They freak people out. Then they get all submissive and let you do anything you want. Listen to their phone calls, open their mail, throw them in jail with no chance of legal representation. It is like food , it's all in the presentation. I'll start getting the T-shirts printed up.
Nice link Newt. These guys were in a tough spot. True heroes. Definitely in a hard spot. I'll never condemn any of these guys for taking care of their families. They've been told to shut up or else. 'Or else' means your family starves.
QUOTE (roves shill+Feb 12 2007, 08:43 PM)
Nice link Newt. These guys were in a tough spot. True heroes. Definitely in a hard spot. I'll never condemn any of these guys for taking care of their families. They've been told to shut up or else. 'Or else' means your family starves.
Yeah, like I heard it from this guy, whose cousin was the girlfriend of a guy whose best friend drove by the site (well, somewhere in New York) who said that if anyone talked, these goons would beat them up.
Aint that the truth.
Yeah, like I heard it from this guy, whose cousin was the girlfriend of a guy whose best friend drove by the site (well, somewhere in New York) who said that if anyone talked, these goons would beat them up.
Aint that the truth.
newton
Absolute fabricated thirdhand BS, typical of the "evidence" CTers present. Boo Hoo for the poor, downtrodden, job threatened(alleged) worker, ALL the other firemen, policemen,steelworkers, CD pros, FBI agents, NIST scientists that are obvious government shills and murderers and are "in on it".
You guys are a sorry joke.
Grumpy
QUOTE
alleged first hand testimony(second, really)
Absolute fabricated thirdhand BS, typical of the "evidence" CTers present. Boo Hoo for the poor, downtrodden, job threatened(alleged) worker, ALL the other firemen, policemen,steelworkers, CD pros, FBI agents, NIST scientists that are obvious government shills and murderers and are "in on it".
You guys are a sorry joke.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 13 2007, 03:00 AM)
newton
Absolute fabricated thirdhand BS, typical of the "evidence" CTers present. Boo Hoo for the poor, downtrodden, job threatened(alleged) worker, ALL the other firemen, policemen,steelworkers, CD pros, FBI agents, NIST scientists that are obvious government shills and murderers and are "in on it".
You guys are a sorry joke.
Grumpy
Absolute fabricated thirdhand BS, typical of the "evidence" CTers present. Boo Hoo for the poor, downtrodden, job threatened(alleged) worker, ALL the other firemen, policemen,steelworkers, CD pros, FBI agents, NIST scientists that are obvious government shills and murderers and are "in on it".
You guys are a sorry joke.
Grumpy
QUOTE
So it comes down to this...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
All else is just the details of that process.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 12 2007, 01:10 PM)
So NOW you think the explosives were built in?
WOW, talk about planning ahead.
Is there ANY Theory SO SILLY that CT'ers WON'T embrace?
Probably not.
Arthur
i'm saying designing explosives into a building or tunnel or road is not as impossible as OCTs make it seem.
go program a voting machine.
WOW, talk about planning ahead.
Is there ANY Theory SO SILLY that CT'ers WON'T embrace?
Probably not.
Arthur
i'm saying designing explosives into a building or tunnel or road is not as impossible as OCTs make it seem.
go program a voting machine.
QUOTE (Palpatane+Feb 13 2007, 02:56 AM)
Yeah, like I heard it from this guy, whose cousin was the girlfriend of a guy whose best friend drove by the site (well, somewhere in New York) who said that if anyone talked, these goons would beat them up.
Aint that the truth.
You gonna believe it when it comes out of their mouth?
RS
Aint that the truth.
QUOTE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...351664218&hl=en
You gonna believe it when it comes out of their mouth?
RS
QUOTE (Palpatane+Feb 13 2007, 02:56 AM)
Yeah, like I heard it from this guy, whose cousin was the girlfriend of a guy whose best friend drove by the site (well, somewhere in New York) who said that if anyone talked, these goons would beat them up.
Aint that the truth.
Here is some more.
I'll keep them coming Palpatine. Their friends and comrades are starting to get sick and die now. It is gonna get louder.
RS
Aint that the truth.
Here is some more.
QUOTE
I don't know what to say, I'm not sure where I stand, and I don't know what to think anymore... not about 9/11, but society in general.
I was a NJ EMT for 6 years. I was in NY at the WTC before, during, and after the collapse. I ran from the falling towers. I hid behind a plexi-glass bus stop panel, as if that would have helped me if anything large came hurtling in that direction. My lungs are full of dust and I can barely breathe without holding back a cough and the ever-present faint taste of blood in the back of my throat. I wake up gasping for air. Those towers fell, and I was there. I don't know why the "official story" of what happened isn't questioned more than it is. Nobody listens to the people who KNOW. The 9/11 commission was made up of puppeteers, and the tesimony was given by the puppets. It's so obvious. It was a failure. If the things I, and hundreds of other people saw, felt, and heard didn't make it into that attrocious failure called the 9/11 Commission Report, then there is no other con clusion than accepting the fact that the whole thing was a whitewash.
Mark... listen to me. There were explosions. There were flashes. There was molten metal running down the I-beams of the basement levels like lava flows. I've never seen anything like it. Yes, planes hit the buildings- anybody who says otherwise is a *****. But the explosions- the rapid, symmetrical, sequential explosions- they happened. We were in the basement, helping a man who had been struck by pieces of flying concrete and rebar, and there was one of the huge steel and concrete support pillars with an 8 foot section blown out of the center of it. We looked around and there were other support columns that were the same. We spoke about it right then and there... we were discussing as we were carrying this man, saying "how could someone have rigged all these explosives?". That sort of thing does not happen from an airplane hitting the building 70, 80 stories up. We stood outside listening to the explosions. One after the other, every minute or so. At one point, about 10 minutes before the first collapse, a 30 foot or so section of the courtyard exlploded straight up into the air. Just before the collapses, a series of deep, below ground explosions, then numerous explosions in the buildings upper floors. Then we ran. We felt the same deep explosions before the second collapse. This was not just the planes. THE BUILDINGS WERE RIGGED. There is no question about it. Hundreds of people know this, Mark. People were told, the crowds of people were TOLD over bullhorns, that building 7 was going to be pulled (and YES that is the term they used). There was a 20 second countdown over the radios, there were bright flashes up and down the sides of building 7, you could see them through the windows...and it collapsed. We all knew it was intentionally pulled... they told us! There was no question about it until a day or so later when the news was reporting that it had collapsed due to fire. We kept wondering when they were going to correct the news reports. Eventually, it became "official story".
I was a NJ EMT for 6 years. I was in NY at the WTC before, during, and after the collapse. I ran from the falling towers. I hid behind a plexi-glass bus stop panel, as if that would have helped me if anything large came hurtling in that direction. My lungs are full of dust and I can barely breathe without holding back a cough and the ever-present faint taste of blood in the back of my throat. I wake up gasping for air. Those towers fell, and I was there. I don't know why the "official story" of what happened isn't questioned more than it is. Nobody listens to the people who KNOW. The 9/11 commission was made up of puppeteers, and the tesimony was given by the puppets. It's so obvious. It was a failure. If the things I, and hundreds of other people saw, felt, and heard didn't make it into that attrocious failure called the 9/11 Commission Report, then there is no other con clusion than accepting the fact that the whole thing was a whitewash.
Mark... listen to me. There were explosions. There were flashes. There was molten metal running down the I-beams of the basement levels like lava flows. I've never seen anything like it. Yes, planes hit the buildings- anybody who says otherwise is a *****. But the explosions- the rapid, symmetrical, sequential explosions- they happened. We were in the basement, helping a man who had been struck by pieces of flying concrete and rebar, and there was one of the huge steel and concrete support pillars with an 8 foot section blown out of the center of it. We looked around and there were other support columns that were the same. We spoke about it right then and there... we were discussing as we were carrying this man, saying "how could someone have rigged all these explosives?". That sort of thing does not happen from an airplane hitting the building 70, 80 stories up. We stood outside listening to the explosions. One after the other, every minute or so. At one point, about 10 minutes before the first collapse, a 30 foot or so section of the courtyard exlploded straight up into the air. Just before the collapses, a series of deep, below ground explosions, then numerous explosions in the buildings upper floors. Then we ran. We felt the same deep explosions before the second collapse. This was not just the planes. THE BUILDINGS WERE RIGGED. There is no question about it. Hundreds of people know this, Mark. People were told, the crowds of people were TOLD over bullhorns, that building 7 was going to be pulled (and YES that is the term they used). There was a 20 second countdown over the radios, there were bright flashes up and down the sides of building 7, you could see them through the windows...and it collapsed. We all knew it was intentionally pulled... they told us! There was no question about it until a day or so later when the news was reporting that it had collapsed due to fire. We kept wondering when they were going to correct the news reports. Eventually, it became "official story".
I'll keep them coming Palpatine. Their friends and comrades are starting to get sick and die now. It is gonna get louder.
RS
QUOTE (roves shill+Feb 12 2007, 05:28 PM)
Damn, this is sheer genius!!! Reasonwhy, man have I got a proposition for you! I know where a bunch of big planes are out here on the Mojave. I know I can fly one, Hanni did. OK, so here is what we do: We find out Controlled Demolitions bids, we lowball them by no less than 30%, to ensure contracts. Then, piece of cake, fuel em up get in the air, don't forget the parachute, and guide these bad boys into anything they want to have "globally collapsed". Dude we are ON IT !!! We could have done that landmark job for a third of what they charged and still walked away loaded. Man I'm glad I lurked on this thread. I'm awestruck by the big brains. I'm not worthy!!!
RS
You think you are going to be able to get out of a jet going 500 mph at an altitude of ~ 500 ft or so AND LIVE to collect payment?
Yeah, go for it.
And, you are right, you ARE not worthy.
Arthur
QUOTE
THE BUILDINGS WERE RIGGED. There is no question about it. Hundreds of people know this, Mark. People were told, the crowds of people were TOLD over bullhorns, that building 7 was going to be pulled (and YES that is the term they used). There was a 20 second countdown over the radios, there were bright flashes up and down the sides of building 7, you could see them through the windows...and it collapsed. We all knew it was intentionally pulled... they told us!
Arthur
QUOTE (Palpatane+Feb 13 2007, 02:56 AM)
Yeah, like I heard it from this guy, whose cousin was the girlfriend of a guy whose best friend drove by the site (well, somewhere in New York) who said that if anyone talked, these goons would beat them up.
Aint that the truth.
still more....
Aint that the truth.
still more....
QUOTE
Pacifica Radio interview - April 27th 2005:
Hosted by Bonnie Falkner
Guest: Indira Singh (Ground Zero Emergency Worker)
Bonnie: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?
Indira: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.
Bonnie: Did they actually use the word "brought down" and who was it that was telling you this?
Indira: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."
Excerpt from above is heard approximately ten minutes into the interview.
Audio: http://www.gunsandbutter.net/archives.php?si=78
Hosted by Bonnie Falkner
Guest: Indira Singh (Ground Zero Emergency Worker)
Bonnie: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?
Indira: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.
Bonnie: Did they actually use the word "brought down" and who was it that was telling you this?
Indira: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."
Excerpt from above is heard approximately ten minutes into the interview.
Audio: http://www.gunsandbutter.net/archives.php?si=78
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 12 2007, 11:59 AM)
reasonwhy, I thought you would appreciate a world that had at least had some qualities in common with yourself.
Why don’t you go promote homosexuality among your family and friends ( you got the Ms. Grumpster sold on it) to save the world.
Talk about twisted friggin logic.
Why don’t you go promote homosexuality among your family and friends ( you got the Ms. Grumpster sold on it) to save the world.
Talk about twisted friggin logic.
Right,
So the Fire Department, who of course is IN ON IT, and who has NEVER BEFORE "brought down" a 47 story building just happens to have a MONUMENTAL SLIP UP and OOPS, just FORGETS that they are not supposed to let anyone know about this CD stuff and so OOPS, TELLS ALL THESE PEOPLE that they are going to BRING DOWN WTC 7.
What a CROCK.
Are you SO GULLIBLE that you actually believe this?????
Arthur
So the Fire Department, who of course is IN ON IT, and who has NEVER BEFORE "brought down" a 47 story building just happens to have a MONUMENTAL SLIP UP and OOPS, just FORGETS that they are not supposed to let anyone know about this CD stuff and so OOPS, TELLS ALL THESE PEOPLE that they are going to BRING DOWN WTC 7.
What a CROCK.
Are you SO GULLIBLE that you actually believe this?????
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2007, 04:44 AM)
You think you are going to be able to get out of a jet going 500 mph at an altitude of ~ 500 ft or so AND LIVE to collect payment?
Yeah, go for it.
And, you are right, you ARE not worthy.
Arthur
Nice, the Uber Brain shows up. How ya been Arthur? How are those energy stocks treating you? You want in on this with me and RW. You know where all those jumbos are out in the Mojave. Each one is a potential precise demo job, at a fraction of the cost of an engineered one, according to the theory you have put forth for the last 1200+ pages. Controlled Demolition will have some serious competition.Tell you what, because I love and respect you, you can fly the first one on our first job. I'll pack your chute.
Yeah, go for it.
And, you are right, you ARE not worthy.
Arthur
Nice, the Uber Brain shows up. How ya been Arthur? How are those energy stocks treating you? You want in on this with me and RW. You know where all those jumbos are out in the Mojave. Each one is a potential precise demo job, at a fraction of the cost of an engineered one, according to the theory you have put forth for the last 1200+ pages. Controlled Demolition will have some serious competition.Tell you what, because I love and respect you, you can fly the first one on our first job. I'll pack your chute.
It has been interesting following the discussion and calculations on various collapse scenarios. If I have it correctly, the buildings were hit with three main sources of forces: plane, fire, gravity/mass.
The question I have is:
Which one, or which combination of those forces, was capable of reducing 2,800 human bodies to what essentially amounts to shredded bits? Certainly not the impact from the plane, it was too localized to have such a profound effect. Same with the fire. That leaves falling mass, no?
I'm not sure how exact these numbers are, but I believe they are close enough to give a fair representation of the state of human remains. Of the 2,800 souls in question, only 1,600 have been id'd. Half of those solely by DNA. Of 20,000 bits of remains retrieved, 6,000 were small enough to fit in a test tube.
Falling mass can do this? Interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------------
And now, we have a video of a NIST engineer flatly stating there was no evidence or reports of any molten metal....intercut with all sorts of clips of molten metal and people talking about the high heat and all the molten metal. Reminded me of Baghdad Bob denying any US forces were in town.
The question I have is:
Which one, or which combination of those forces, was capable of reducing 2,800 human bodies to what essentially amounts to shredded bits? Certainly not the impact from the plane, it was too localized to have such a profound effect. Same with the fire. That leaves falling mass, no?
I'm not sure how exact these numbers are, but I believe they are close enough to give a fair representation of the state of human remains. Of the 2,800 souls in question, only 1,600 have been id'd. Half of those solely by DNA. Of 20,000 bits of remains retrieved, 6,000 were small enough to fit in a test tube.
Falling mass can do this? Interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------------
And now, we have a video of a NIST engineer flatly stating there was no evidence or reports of any molten metal....intercut with all sorts of clips of molten metal and people talking about the high heat and all the molten metal. Reminded me of Baghdad Bob denying any US forces were in town.
QUOTE (forthetrees+Feb 13 2007, 01:37 AM)
And now, we have a video of a NIST engineer flatly stating there was no evidence or reports of any molten metal....intercut with all sorts of clips of molten metal and people talking about the high heat and all the molten metal. Reminded me of Baghdad Bob denying any US forces were in town.
Nope.
You say "ANY molten metal" but the guy asking the question doesn't ask about ANY molten metal, he asks about "HUGE POOLS OF MOLTEN STEEL" and then CLARIFIES this and says "MELTED STEEL".
No one has yet produced any evidence of the existence of HUGE POOLS OF MELTED STEEL.
That's just CT'er BS.
The video DOES include a clip from the fireman who does say that inside the pile it was burning LIKE A ROARING OVEN and estimates the temp at 1,500 degrees which is certainly high enough to make steel glow, i.e. be described by someone as MOLTEN. (it will also act like a crematorium and reduce bodies to ashes and destroy DNA)
CT'ers CONSTANTLY interchange MELTED with MOLTEN as if they were the same.
These LIES are clearly DELIBERATE attempts to DECEIVE.
There were no POOLS of MELTED STEEL found anywhere.
Descriptions of MOLTEN steel can simply mean it was GLOWING HOT.
And every melted metal someone encountered does NOT equal melted STEEL (even if that's what they THINK it is) as there were plenty of other metals in the towers, many of which WOULD melt at the temps the fires produced.
Arthur
Nope.
You say "ANY molten metal" but the guy asking the question doesn't ask about ANY molten metal, he asks about "HUGE POOLS OF MOLTEN STEEL" and then CLARIFIES this and says "MELTED STEEL".
No one has yet produced any evidence of the existence of HUGE POOLS OF MELTED STEEL.
That's just CT'er BS.
The video DOES include a clip from the fireman who does say that inside the pile it was burning LIKE A ROARING OVEN and estimates the temp at 1,500 degrees which is certainly high enough to make steel glow, i.e. be described by someone as MOLTEN. (it will also act like a crematorium and reduce bodies to ashes and destroy DNA)
CT'ers CONSTANTLY interchange MELTED with MOLTEN as if they were the same.
These LIES are clearly DELIBERATE attempts to DECEIVE.
There were no POOLS of MELTED STEEL found anywhere.
Descriptions of MOLTEN steel can simply mean it was GLOWING HOT.
And every melted metal someone encountered does NOT equal melted STEEL (even if that's what they THINK it is) as there were plenty of other metals in the towers, many of which WOULD melt at the temps the fires produced.
Arthur
QUOTE (roves shill+Feb 12 2007, 09:16 PM)
Nice, the Uber Brain shows up. How ya been Arthur? How are those energy stocks treating you? You want in on this with me and RW. You know where all those jumbos are out in the Mojave. Each one is a potential precise demo job, at a fraction of the cost of an engineered one, according to the theory you have put forth for the last 1200+ pages. Controlled Demolition will have some serious competition.Tell you what, because I love and respect you, you can fly the first one on our first job. I'll pack your chute.
I recommend we auction off the packing job of Arthur's chute. Their could be more money from the auction then the demo job!
Arthurs could probably get us the 767 military tanker with remote controls with all his connections
http://www.aero-news.net/FullsizeImage.cfm...9a-b6a9090a94f3
http://www.amics21.com/911/imags/image009.jpg
I recommend we auction off the packing job of Arthur's chute. Their could be more money from the auction then the demo job!
Arthurs could probably get us the 767 military tanker with remote controls with all his connections
http://www.aero-news.net/FullsizeImage.cfm...9a-b6a9090a94f3
http://www.amics21.com/911/imags/image009.jpg
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2007, 02:16 AM)
I recommend we auction off the packing job of Arthur's chute. Their could be more money from the auction then the demo job!
I doubt it. You CT'ers are the only ones who want me to go away and from what I can tell from your other posts, most of you are intellectually lazy, few of you have gotten a decent education, clearly you have poor logical abilities and thus none of you are not likely to have good jobs or earn much money.
Arthur
I doubt it. You CT'ers are the only ones who want me to go away and from what I can tell from your other posts, most of you are intellectually lazy, few of you have gotten a decent education, clearly you have poor logical abilities and thus none of you are not likely to have good jobs or earn much money.
Arthur
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Feb 12 2007, 04:50 PM)
Wrong again, reasonwhy. They're Sir Issac Newton's mythical forces.
Seriously, build yourself a little inverted pendulum held in an almost vertical position by a spring. Use a simple force gauge to determine the lateral force on the pin.
Alternately, do the easy trigonometry to compute this mythical force.
DBB, the problem is that it was pinned at both ends in most of the columns. Columns are designed for this because of the shear force of the wind.
The building is an inverted pendulum and it stood for 30 years. It was only pinned at one end. Did the weld fracture at the base every time there was a breeze?
The force is easy to compute when setup properly.
Seriously, build yourself a little inverted pendulum held in an almost vertical position by a spring. Use a simple force gauge to determine the lateral force on the pin.
Alternately, do the easy trigonometry to compute this mythical force.
DBB, the problem is that it was pinned at both ends in most of the columns. Columns are designed for this because of the shear force of the wind.
The building is an inverted pendulum and it stood for 30 years. It was only pinned at one end. Did the weld fracture at the base every time there was a breeze?
The force is easy to compute when setup properly.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 12 2007, 09:59 PM)
Nope.
You say "ANY molten metal" but the guy asking the question doesn't ask about ANY molten metal, he asks about "HUGE POOLS OF MOLTEN STEEL" and then CLARIFIES this and says "MELTED STEEL".
No one has yet produced any evidence of the existence of HUGE POOLS OF MELTED STEEL.
That's just CT'er BS.
The video DOES include a clip from the fireman who does say that inside the pile it was burning LIKE A ROARING OVEN and estimates the temp at 1,500 degrees which is certainly high enough to make steel glow, i.e. be described by someone as MOLTEN. (it will also act like a crematorium and reduce bodies to ashes and destroy DNA)
CT'ers CONSTANTLY interchange MELTED with MOLTEN as if they were the same.
These LIES are clearly DELIBERATE attempts to DECEIVE.
There were no POOLS of MELTED STEEL found anywhere.
Descriptions of MOLTEN steel can simply mean it was GLOWING HOT.
And every melted metal someone encountered does NOT equal melted STEEL (even if that's what they THINK it is) as there were plenty of other metals in the towers, many of which WOULD melt at the temps the fires produced.
Arthur
You are so full of BS.
HOW do YOU KNOW the molten metal was not steel?
Did anyone TEST the flowing red hot METAL under WTC6?
Did anyone TEST any of the METAL that had MELTED (besides the FEMA report that NIST ignored)?
Of course not, EVERYONE was to busy DESTROYING evidence.
You say "ANY molten metal" but the guy asking the question doesn't ask about ANY molten metal, he asks about "HUGE POOLS OF MOLTEN STEEL" and then CLARIFIES this and says "MELTED STEEL".
No one has yet produced any evidence of the existence of HUGE POOLS OF MELTED STEEL.
That's just CT'er BS.
The video DOES include a clip from the fireman who does say that inside the pile it was burning LIKE A ROARING OVEN and estimates the temp at 1,500 degrees which is certainly high enough to make steel glow, i.e. be described by someone as MOLTEN. (it will also act like a crematorium and reduce bodies to ashes and destroy DNA)
CT'ers CONSTANTLY interchange MELTED with MOLTEN as if they were the same.
These LIES are clearly DELIBERATE attempts to DECEIVE.
There were no POOLS of MELTED STEEL found anywhere.
Descriptions of MOLTEN steel can simply mean it was GLOWING HOT.
And every melted metal someone encountered does NOT equal melted STEEL (even if that's what they THINK it is) as there were plenty of other metals in the towers, many of which WOULD melt at the temps the fires produced.
Arthur
You are so full of BS.
HOW do YOU KNOW the molten metal was not steel?
Did anyone TEST the flowing red hot METAL under WTC6?
Did anyone TEST any of the METAL that had MELTED (besides the FEMA report that NIST ignored)?
Of course not, EVERYONE was to busy DESTROYING evidence.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2007, 05:03 AM)
Why don’t you go promote homosexuality among your family and friends ( you got the Ms. Grumpster sold on it) to save the world.
Talk about twisted friggin logic.
reasonwhy, looks like you and roves shill decieded to take my advice.
Talk about twisted friggin logic.
reasonwhy, looks like you and roves shill decieded to take my advice.
QUOTE (roves shill+ Feb 12 2007, 9:28 PM)
Reasonwhy, man have I got a proposition for you!
Man I'm glad I lurked on this thread. I'm awestruck by the big !!!
Man I'm glad I lurked on this thread. I'm awestruck by the big !!!
QUOTE (roves shill+ Feb 12 2007, 10:21 PM)
RW, hold up. I might have jumped the gun.
Man, I'm starting to see a few cracks....
Man, I'm starting to see a few cracks....
QUOTE (reasonwhy+ Feb 13 2007, 12:07 AM)
Roves shill, you neocons always do things the hard way.
We can use mythical lateral forces.
We can use mythical lateral forces.
QUOTE (roves shill+ Feb 13 2007, 1:16 AM)
Then they get all submissive and let you do anything you want.
Here you guys give new meaning to the word troll.
Here you guys give new meaning to the word troll.
QUOTE (roves shill+ Feb 13 2007, 5:16 AM)
How ya been Arthur?
You want in on this with me and RW.
Tell you what, because I love and respect you, I'll pack your chute.
You want in on this with me and RW.
Tell you what, because I love and respect you, I'll pack your chute.
reasonwhy
It's called physics, look it up.
It's called physics, look it up.
Did anyone TEST the flowing red hot METAL under WTC6?
What flowing red hot metal??? No cooled pools of metal were documented anywhere on site. This is just another CTer lie.
Another lie. EVERYONE there was just as loyal and patriotic as you CLAIM to be, even more so. Expecting thousands of POed American patriots to cover up or destroy evidence in the wake of an attack on our country shows a total lack of logical thought(and is extremely stupid to boot). Yet this is necessary to support your scenario. Therefore your scenario is also extremely stupid, so I'll try to explain in terms even you short bus riders can understand...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
Grumpy
reasonwhy, looks like you and roves shill decieded to take my advice.
Here you guys give new meaning to the word troll.
The friggen twisted mind of the OCT.
Just when I think your post could not possibly get any worse, you prove me wrong.
I also though promoting homosexuality was a joke until I goggled it
http://www.google.com/search?q=promote+homosexuality&num=20
1 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for promote homosexuality
It is one thing to not discriminate against homosexuals but promoting it to teens is propaganda at its worst!
Is there anything you shills will not do for money?
OK, fair enough. And I'll take that as a summary of your more in-depth analysis: planes hit buildings, make big boom/fire, buildings disintegrate, dust and pieces fall down.
Now then...do you want to take a stab at explaining my earlier question on how the 2,800 poor, unfortunate souls who were dropping along with the falling building had their bodies essentially reduced to small bits in those few seconds?
What and where are the forces and mechanics which can do that in 10-15 seconds, and how were they applied?
Thanks, I look forward to be informed on how this happened. I'm sure you'll be able to also supply plenty of examples of how this apparently perplexing phenomenon is actually quite common in gravity collapse events.
---------------------------------------
Yeah, my mistake on John Gross of NIST molten metal statement. In replaying the clip (wow, looks like it is going viral quickly in the 9/11 blogosphere), I see he actually said, "While there were areas of extreme heat at the bottom of the rubble under WTC 1,2, & 7 which caused problems with air quality and melting workers boots...and which burned for several weeks as well as was documented by thermal images, and which was causing melting, flowing metal to drip from the ends of beams when they were removed weeks later.....
after extensive study we had determined that it had nothing to do with initiating a collapse sequence so we've ignored it and suggest ya'll do to. Thanks for asking about it."
That's YOUR job, CT'ers claim it WAS STEEL, then its up to YOU to prove it, or at least prove that conditions existed that could have melted steel.
Got any proof of POOLS OF MELTED STEEL?
That's YOUR job, CT'ers claim it WAS STEEL, then its up to YOU to prove it, or at least prove that conditions existed that could have melted steel.
Got any proof of POOLS OF MELTED STEEL?
Did anyone TEST the flowing red hot METAL under WTC6?
Don't know, got any PROOF of the type or quantity of said metal?
Got any proof of the temps that would be needed for this to have been steel?
I've YET to see a SINGLE picture of said MELTED metal in the rubble pile, so I'd say no. But that's NOT really the point is it. If THERMATE were used than the quantities necessary would be ENORMOUS and thus this metal would be expected to be found and pictures of it would exist.
It WASN'T and they don't, so in the ABSENSE of EVIDENCE then the story is BOGUS.
Arthur
Does not need to be anywhere near that number...
Hundreds, if not thousands, of loyal Americans knew full good and well from first hand experience that the whole Gulf of Tonkin "attack" was a 100% bald faced lie. And yet we managed to use it to fight a war for another 10 years. The very same statement you are using now was used then when questions about the attack were raised. "It has to be true, otherwise you are saying patriotic members of our armed services from sailors up through admirals are lying." Well, it was true and patriotic members of our military from soldiers up through admirals were lying...or at least not telling the truth. Those who did try to speak up were attacked with the same faulty logic being dusted off to be used again in 9/11.
Before that there was Dallas.
Unless you are stupid enough to believe what your eyes tell you in the vido clip which clearly shows the man's head snap up and back with brain matter and skull bits blowing away behind him into the direction from which the shot came, and which we were kept from seeing for decades...then you know the truth to be that
Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet which passed through him from above and behind. It then hit the Govenor of Texas, broke some bone, changed direction, did some more damage, and then fell out of him fully intact and undamaged at the hospital to put the question of any type of conspiracy fully to rest once and for all.
History is full of expamples of good people not stepping up when they believed the greater good was being served by their not asking or saying the wrong thing.
reasonwhy, looks like you and roves shill decieded to take my advice.
Here you guys give new meaning to the word troll.
My Capracus, aren't you the clever one! The way you rearranged the words and made it look like...... I'm blushing. Feeling left out dear? Tell you what, since you are backing this theory also. I'll let you in at the ground level, as an investor. We haven't come up with a name yet, maybe you can help with that, too.
This business model is an absolutely no-risk investment. Remember, on 9/11, these jumbos destroyed 3 out of a possible 2 targets. It is a no brainer.
RS
"Ground up"? Is that a technical or scientific term?
I'll take your response as being that you have no reasonable answer to the question.
I am asking how you attributed structural, gravitational forces which may have comminuted concrete also literally pulverized thousands for bodies at the same time. What is the source of the force, and how was it applied to bodies - which are not part of the structural dynamics unleashed by the collapse.
Over 1,000 people have never been identified to this date. That means not a trace of their remains were ever recovered...even when they went to the extent of retrieving thousands of bits small enough to fit in a test tube.
Are you saying a gravitational collapse has the energy and the means to quite literally vaporize thousands of bodies in a few seconds? How does that work?
Ahhhh....so then as, "part of the dynamics" the human bodies were sort of dematerialized to the extent that over 1,000 unfortunate people had not the slightest (we're talking smaller than what'll fit in test tube) evidence of their physical existance left. I see. Heck of a force, no? Do you have any other examples of its use and effects?
Ahhhh....so then as, "part of the dynamics" the human bodies were sort of dematerialized to the extent that over 1,000 unfortunate people had not the slightest (we're talking smaller than what'll fit in test tube) evidence of their physical existance left. I see. Heck of a force, no? Do you have any other examples of its use and effects?
To say nothing of the floor assemblies, including the steel floor pans, which also disintegrated. And all of the rest of the building contents. Dustified.
QUOTE
HOW do YOU KNOW the molten metal was not steel?
It's called physics, look it up.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| HOW do YOU KNOW the molten metal was not steel? |
It's called physics, look it up.
Did anyone TEST the flowing red hot METAL under WTC6?
What flowing red hot metal??? No cooled pools of metal were documented anywhere on site. This is just another CTer lie.
QUOTE
Of course not, EVERYONE was to busy DESTROYING evidence.
Another lie. EVERYONE there was just as loyal and patriotic as you CLAIM to be, even more so. Expecting thousands of POed American patriots to cover up or destroy evidence in the wake of an attack on our country shows a total lack of logical thought(and is extremely stupid to boot). Yet this is necessary to support your scenario. Therefore your scenario is also extremely stupid, so I'll try to explain in terms even you short bus riders can understand...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 13 2007, 01:58 AM)
reasonwhy, looks like you and roves shill decieded to take my advice.
Here you guys give new meaning to the word troll.
The friggen twisted mind of the OCT.
Just when I think your post could not possibly get any worse, you prove me wrong.
I also though promoting homosexuality was a joke until I goggled it
http://www.google.com/search?q=promote+homosexuality&num=20
1 - 20 of about 1,190,000 for promote homosexuality
QUOTE
CBS Teams with Gay Group to Promote Homosexuality to Teens on TV
It is one thing to not discriminate against homosexuals but promoting it to teens is propaganda at its worst!
Is there anything you shills will not do for money?
reasonwhy
The only ones saying anyone is PROMOTING homosexuality are the same people who feel it is their right to discriminate against homosexuality, for religious reasons mostly. In this country they do not have that right. It is a strawman meant to incite those of like mind to discriminate against those different than themselves.
Gay people have always existed, they will always exist. If the religious groups would live and let live there would be no problem, a straight person cannot be "recruited" into being a homosexual and vice versa.
It is only the bigoted persiqution of gays that these people seek to stop. That is not promotion of a lifestyle, but the fight for civil rights for all, including those who happen to have been born gay.
Please take your bigotry elsewhere, the only thing we should not tolerate is intolerance.
Grumpy
The only ones saying anyone is PROMOTING homosexuality are the same people who feel it is their right to discriminate against homosexuality, for religious reasons mostly. In this country they do not have that right. It is a strawman meant to incite those of like mind to discriminate against those different than themselves.
Gay people have always existed, they will always exist. If the religious groups would live and let live there would be no problem, a straight person cannot be "recruited" into being a homosexual and vice versa.
It is only the bigoted persiqution of gays that these people seek to stop. That is not promotion of a lifestyle, but the fight for civil rights for all, including those who happen to have been born gay.
Please take your bigotry elsewhere, the only thing we should not tolerate is intolerance.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down.
Grumpy
Grumpy
OK, fair enough. And I'll take that as a summary of your more in-depth analysis: planes hit buildings, make big boom/fire, buildings disintegrate, dust and pieces fall down.
Now then...do you want to take a stab at explaining my earlier question on how the 2,800 poor, unfortunate souls who were dropping along with the falling building had their bodies essentially reduced to small bits in those few seconds?
What and where are the forces and mechanics which can do that in 10-15 seconds, and how were they applied?
Thanks, I look forward to be informed on how this happened. I'm sure you'll be able to also supply plenty of examples of how this apparently perplexing phenomenon is actually quite common in gravity collapse events.
---------------------------------------
Yeah, my mistake on John Gross of NIST molten metal statement. In replaying the clip (wow, looks like it is going viral quickly in the 9/11 blogosphere), I see he actually said, "While there were areas of extreme heat at the bottom of the rubble under WTC 1,2, & 7 which caused problems with air quality and melting workers boots...and which burned for several weeks as well as was documented by thermal images, and which was causing melting, flowing metal to drip from the ends of beams when they were removed weeks later.....
after extensive study we had determined that it had nothing to do with initiating a collapse sequence so we've ignored it and suggest ya'll do to. Thanks for asking about it."
QUOTE
HOW do YOU KNOW the molten metal was not steel?
That's YOUR job, CT'ers claim it WAS STEEL, then its up to YOU to prove it, or at least prove that conditions existed that could have melted steel.
Got any proof of POOLS OF MELTED STEEL?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| HOW do YOU KNOW the molten metal was not steel? |
That's YOUR job, CT'ers claim it WAS STEEL, then its up to YOU to prove it, or at least prove that conditions existed that could have melted steel.
Got any proof of POOLS OF MELTED STEEL?
Did anyone TEST the flowing red hot METAL under WTC6?
Don't know, got any PROOF of the type or quantity of said metal?
Got any proof of the temps that would be needed for this to have been steel?
QUOTE
Did anyone TEST any of the METAL that had MELTED (besides the FEMA report that NIST ignored)?
I've YET to see a SINGLE picture of said MELTED metal in the rubble pile, so I'd say no. But that's NOT really the point is it. If THERMATE were used than the quantities necessary would be ENORMOUS and thus this metal would be expected to be found and pictures of it would exist.
It WASN'T and they don't, so in the ABSENSE of EVIDENCE then the story is BOGUS.
Arthur
QUOTE
Expecting thousands of POed American patriots to cover up or destroy evidence in the wake of an attack on our country shows a total lack of logical thought(and is extremely stupid to boot). Yet this is necessary to support your scenario.
Does not need to be anywhere near that number...
Hundreds, if not thousands, of loyal Americans knew full good and well from first hand experience that the whole Gulf of Tonkin "attack" was a 100% bald faced lie. And yet we managed to use it to fight a war for another 10 years. The very same statement you are using now was used then when questions about the attack were raised. "It has to be true, otherwise you are saying patriotic members of our armed services from sailors up through admirals are lying." Well, it was true and patriotic members of our military from soldiers up through admirals were lying...or at least not telling the truth. Those who did try to speak up were attacked with the same faulty logic being dusted off to be used again in 9/11.
Before that there was Dallas.
Unless you are stupid enough to believe what your eyes tell you in the vido clip which clearly shows the man's head snap up and back with brain matter and skull bits blowing away behind him into the direction from which the shot came, and which we were kept from seeing for decades...then you know the truth to be that
Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet which passed through him from above and behind. It then hit the Govenor of Texas, broke some bone, changed direction, did some more damage, and then fell out of him fully intact and undamaged at the hospital to put the question of any type of conspiracy fully to rest once and for all.
History is full of expamples of good people not stepping up when they believed the greater good was being served by their not asking or saying the wrong thing.
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 13 2007, 09:58 AM)
reasonwhy, looks like you and roves shill decieded to take my advice.
Here you guys give new meaning to the word troll.
My Capracus, aren't you the clever one! The way you rearranged the words and made it look like...... I'm blushing. Feeling left out dear? Tell you what, since you are backing this theory also. I'll let you in at the ground level, as an investor. We haven't come up with a name yet, maybe you can help with that, too.
This business model is an absolutely no-risk investment. Remember, on 9/11, these jumbos destroyed 3 out of a possible 2 targets. It is a no brainer.
RS
reasonwhy --- Strictly speaking the towers are not considered to be inverted pendulums because all, or most, of the mass was not concentrated at the top. I have computed the flexure of the towers under maximum design wind load conditions and obtained a number less than 60 seconds of arc. Most importantly, nobody was dropping large masses down on top of the towers.
It is another matter to consider the core column members individually. Once collapse had initiated, the top of the uppermost columns of the bottom block were no longer connected to the crushing block. So an inverted pendulum provides an approximate model.
The question of collapse initiation is a separate one. But at a DCR of 2 one should expect column buckling.
Got it now?
forthetrees --- What remains were not ground up by the same forces which comminuted the concrete were burned in the immensely hot fires smoldering in Ground Zero for weeks.
Arthur --- My (1947) desk dictionary states that molten means melted, liquid, except when used to describe an artifact which was produced by prior melting, as molten image. I opine that most of the workers at Ground Zero saw something new to them and used the word molten incorrectly, not knowing a better term.
It is another matter to consider the core column members individually. Once collapse had initiated, the top of the uppermost columns of the bottom block were no longer connected to the crushing block. So an inverted pendulum provides an approximate model.
The question of collapse initiation is a separate one. But at a DCR of 2 one should expect column buckling.
Got it now?
forthetrees --- What remains were not ground up by the same forces which comminuted the concrete were burned in the immensely hot fires smoldering in Ground Zero for weeks.
Arthur --- My (1947) desk dictionary states that molten means melted, liquid, except when used to describe an artifact which was produced by prior melting, as molten image. I opine that most of the workers at Ground Zero saw something new to them and used the word molten incorrectly, not knowing a better term.
DBB:
And yet, they have positively identified the eight highjackers through DNA recovered from ground zero. Something has always bothered me about this: where/when did the highjackers, prior to 9/11, submit to DNA sampling, for the match from the evidence recovered at GZ?
QUOTE
forthetrees --- What remains were not ground up by the same forces which comminuted the concrete were burned in the immensely hot fires smoldering in Ground Zero for weeks.
And yet, they have positively identified the eight highjackers through DNA recovered from ground zero. Something has always bothered me about this: where/when did the highjackers, prior to 9/11, submit to DNA sampling, for the match from the evidence recovered at GZ?
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Feb 13 2007, 10:40 AM)
reasonwhy --- Strictly speaking the towers are not considered to be inverted pendulums because all, or most, of the mass was not concentrated at the top.
And a pinned column is a inverted pendulums(or even a severed column)?
It helps if your model is somewhat close to reality (not that it would stop you).
And a pinned column is a inverted pendulums(or even a severed column)?
It helps if your model is somewhat close to reality (not that it would stop you).
QUOTE
--- What remains were not ground up by the same forces which comminuted the concrete were burned in the immensely hot fires smoldering in Ground Zero for weeks.
"Ground up"? Is that a technical or scientific term?
I'll take your response as being that you have no reasonable answer to the question.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 13 2007, 06:09 AM)
reasonwhy
The only ones saying anyone is PROMOTING homosexuality are the same people who feel it is their right to discriminate against homosexuality, for religious reasons mostly. In this country they do not have that right. It is a strawman meant to incite those of like mind to discriminate against those different than themselves.
Gay people have always existed, they will always exist. If the religious groups would live and let live there would be no problem, a straight person cannot be "recruited" into being a homosexual and vice versa.
It is only the bigoted persiqution of gays that these people seek to stop. That is not promotion of a lifestyle, but the fight for civil rights for all, including those who happen to have been born gay.
Please take your bigotry elsewhere, the only thing we should not tolerate is intolerance.
Grumpy
Like I said, "The friggen twisted minds of the OCT."
Doesn't even know the difference between tolerance and promotion.
The only ones saying anyone is PROMOTING homosexuality are the same people who feel it is their right to discriminate against homosexuality, for religious reasons mostly. In this country they do not have that right. It is a strawman meant to incite those of like mind to discriminate against those different than themselves.
Gay people have always existed, they will always exist. If the religious groups would live and let live there would be no problem, a straight person cannot be "recruited" into being a homosexual and vice versa.
It is only the bigoted persiqution of gays that these people seek to stop. That is not promotion of a lifestyle, but the fight for civil rights for all, including those who happen to have been born gay.
Please take your bigotry elsewhere, the only thing we should not tolerate is intolerance.
Grumpy
Like I said, "The friggen twisted minds of the OCT."
Doesn't even know the difference between tolerance and promotion.
reasonwhy --- An inverted pendulum offers an approximate model for a column which is only fixed at the base. It will have much the same escaping (buckling) behavior as a column.
forthetrees --- No, ground up is not a technical term. The technical term for crushing rock, concrete, etc. is comminution.
But I fail to comprehend what you are trying to ask. There are many visuals available which show the comminuted concrete at Ground Zero.
forthetrees --- No, ground up is not a technical term. The technical term for crushing rock, concrete, etc. is comminution.
But I fail to comprehend what you are trying to ask. There are many visuals available which show the comminuted concrete at Ground Zero.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 13 2007, 02:48 AM)
reasonwhy
What flowing red hot metal??? No cooled pools of metal were documented anywhere on site. This is just another CTer lie.
Grumpy
No, this is more OCT lies and I can prove it.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/...mg_debris_6.jpg
Quick Calculations
RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running. I did some quick numbers with Gary Panariello, an engineer from Thornton-Tomasetti, to try and determine what the load on WTC 6 was and how much of the lateral system of the building the contractor could take down. There were a lot of judgment calls; people had immediate needs and needed immediate responses.
Richard Garlock is an associate of LERA, whose founder Leslie E. Robertson is the structural engineer of record for the World Trade Center complex. Garlock used the firm's years of experience on the site, along with the vast collection of architectural and structural drawings, to advise the rescue and stabilization operations on structural issues.
A structural engineer not knowing what he is talking about?
What flowing red hot metal??? No cooled pools of metal were documented anywhere on site. This is just another CTer lie.
Grumpy
No, this is more OCT lies and I can prove it.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/...mg_debris_6.jpg
QUOTE
Quick Calculations
RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running. I did some quick numbers with Gary Panariello, an engineer from Thornton-Tomasetti, to try and determine what the load on WTC 6 was and how much of the lateral system of the building the contractor could take down. There were a lot of judgment calls; people had immediate needs and needed immediate responses.
Richard Garlock is an associate of LERA, whose founder Leslie E. Robertson is the structural engineer of record for the World Trade Center complex. Garlock used the firm's years of experience on the site, along with the vast collection of architectural and structural drawings, to advise the rescue and stabilization operations on structural issues.
A structural engineer not knowing what he is talking about?
QUOTE
But I fail to comprehend what you are trying to ask. There are many visuals available which show the comminuted concrete at Ground Zero.
I am asking how you attributed structural, gravitational forces which may have comminuted concrete also literally pulverized thousands for bodies at the same time. What is the source of the force, and how was it applied to bodies - which are not part of the structural dynamics unleashed by the collapse.
Over 1,000 people have never been identified to this date. That means not a trace of their remains were ever recovered...even when they went to the extent of retrieving thousands of bits small enough to fit in a test tube.
Are you saying a gravitational collapse has the energy and the means to quite literally vaporize thousands of bodies in a few seconds? How does that work?
forthetrees
Like the meat grinder at the butcher shop. The soft meat is led in between the hard metal and the movement of that hard metal grinds that soft meat into a gooey paste. Now if this gooey paste is left in a 800-1000 degree oven for several months what comes out resembles ashes, not people. And no DNA test we now have will identify the origin of that ash. Are you really that clueless or are you just playing the fool on the internet???
Grumpy
QUOTE
Are you saying a gravitational collapse has the energy and the means to quite literally vaporize thousands of bodies in a few seconds? How does that work?
Like the meat grinder at the butcher shop. The soft meat is led in between the hard metal and the movement of that hard metal grinds that soft meat into a gooey paste. Now if this gooey paste is left in a 800-1000 degree oven for several months what comes out resembles ashes, not people. And no DNA test we now have will identify the origin of that ash. Are you really that clueless or are you just playing the fool on the internet???
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 13 2007, 09:07 PM)
forthetrees
Like the meat grinder at the butcher shop. The soft meat is led in between the hard metal and the movement of that hard metal grinds that soft meat into a gooey paste. Now if this gooey paste is left in a 800-1000 degree oven for several months what comes out resembles ashes, not people. And no DNA test we now have will identify the origin of that ash. Are you really that clueless or are you just playing the fool on the internet???
Grumpy
That is patently absurd.
I'll take that as a "no clue" for your answer.
Like the meat grinder at the butcher shop. The soft meat is led in between the hard metal and the movement of that hard metal grinds that soft meat into a gooey paste. Now if this gooey paste is left in a 800-1000 degree oven for several months what comes out resembles ashes, not people. And no DNA test we now have will identify the origin of that ash. Are you really that clueless or are you just playing the fool on the internet???
Grumpy
That is patently absurd.
I'll take that as a "no clue" for your answer.
QUOTE (forthetrees+Feb 13 2007, 08:43 PM)
I am asking how you attributed structural, gravitational forces which may have comminuted concrete also literally pulverized thousands for bodies at the same time. What is the source of the force, and how was it applied to bodies - which are not part of the structural dynamics unleashed by the collapse.
Everything in the towers was part of the dynamics.
As I already said, most of the remains were then burned in the Ground Zero fires.
Sampling the materials, called fines, from Ground Zero is not the same as analyzing all of it. I'm rather amazed that the remains of so many were identified, myself.
Everything in the towers was part of the dynamics.
As I already said, most of the remains were then burned in the Ground Zero fires.
Sampling the materials, called fines, from Ground Zero is not the same as analyzing all of it. I'm rather amazed that the remains of so many were identified, myself.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2007, 08:11 PM)
Like I said, "The friggen twisted minds of the OCT."
Doesn't even know the difference between tolerance and promotion.
reasonwhy, in the future, why don't we leave debating unrelated topics to their forums or threads of origin.
I'm sure if I went to a chute packing forum, I could dig up all kinds of juicy comments from you and your partners, but it wouldn't really contribute the discussion at hand in this thread.
Doesn't even know the difference between tolerance and promotion.
reasonwhy, in the future, why don't we leave debating unrelated topics to their forums or threads of origin.
I'm sure if I went to a chute packing forum, I could dig up all kinds of juicy comments from you and your partners, but it wouldn't really contribute the discussion at hand in this thread.
forthetrees
I'll take that as a "no clue" for your answer.
Then you are not just playing the fool on the internet, huh???
It is the same forces that apply in a high speed car accident and fire, why would a building disintegrating be any gentler on soft human bodies??? Human bodies don't do very well in any high energy environment or in simple fires. Where do you think the idea for crematoria came from??? A small portion of the fuel that kept the fires burning came from the thousands of bodies buried in the burning wreckage.
Now, come on, you really can't be that stupid, can you???
Grumpy
QUOTE
I'll take that as a "no clue" for your answer.
Then you are not just playing the fool on the internet, huh???
It is the same forces that apply in a high speed car accident and fire, why would a building disintegrating be any gentler on soft human bodies??? Human bodies don't do very well in any high energy environment or in simple fires. Where do you think the idea for crematoria came from??? A small portion of the fuel that kept the fires burning came from the thousands of bodies buried in the burning wreckage.
Now, come on, you really can't be that stupid, can you???
Grumpy
QUOTE (roves shill+Feb 13 2007, 04:08 PM)
My Capracus, aren't you the clever one! The way you rearranged the words and made it look like...... I'm blushing. Feeling left out dear? Tell you what, since you are backing this theory also. I'll let you in at the ground level, as an investor. We haven't come up with a name yet, maybe you can help with that, too.
This business model is an absolutely no-risk investment. Remember, on 9/11, these jumbos destroyed 3 out of a possible 2 targets. It is a no brainer.
RS
roves shill, I think I'll pass on the chute packing venture that yourself and reasonwhy are trying to organize.
I'm happily married, and on the demolition side of the proposal, I don't think a picture of ground zero is something a professional demolitionist would want in their resume.
This business model is an absolutely no-risk investment. Remember, on 9/11, these jumbos destroyed 3 out of a possible 2 targets. It is a no brainer.
RS
roves shill, I think I'll pass on the chute packing venture that yourself and reasonwhy are trying to organize.
I'm happily married, and on the demolition side of the proposal, I don't think a picture of ground zero is something a professional demolitionist would want in their resume.
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 13 2007, 09:45 PM)
roves shill, I think I'll pass on the chute packing venture that yourself and reasonwhy are trying to organize.
I'm happily married, and on the demolition side of the proposal, I don't think a picture of ground zero is something a professional demolitionist would want in their resume.
You might be happily married Capricus, but with that accusatory, homophobia showing, I doubt your wife is. I don't get the picture bit. Is that a defense?
I'm happily married, and on the demolition side of the proposal, I don't think a picture of ground zero is something a professional demolitionist would want in their resume.
You might be happily married Capricus, but with that accusatory, homophobia showing, I doubt your wife is. I don't get the picture bit. Is that a defense?
You know since Roves Shill and Reason Why took over the posting duties for the DEMOLITIONISTS,
Ace Baker is starting to look pretty good!
But on the other hand and
OFF TOPIC:
The impact of the upper block of floors on the lower block may also be treated as a heavily damped vibration.........
This is where Cherepanov and Ross have it all wrong. The energy radiated as an elastic compression wave into the structure below was a small percentage of the impact energy.
Most of the impact damage
WAS LOCAL.
NF
Ace Baker is starting to look pretty good!
But on the other hand and
OFF TOPIC:
The impact of the upper block of floors on the lower block may also be treated as a heavily damped vibration.........
This is where Cherepanov and Ross have it all wrong. The energy radiated as an elastic compression wave into the structure below was a small percentage of the impact energy.
Most of the impact damage
WAS LOCAL.
NF
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Feb 14 2007, 01:21 AM)
You know since Roves Shill and Reason Why took over the posting duties for the DEMOLITIONISTS,
Ace Baker is starting to look pretty good!
But on the other hand and
OFF TOPIC:
The impact of the upper block of floors on the lower block may also be treated as a heavily damped vibration.........
This is where Cherepanov and Ross have it all wrong. The energy radiated as an elastic compression wave into the structure below was a small percentage of the impact energy.
Most of the impact damage
WAS LOCAL.
NF
What upper block, Frank?
Yo Frank, would you like to have a nice videotaped debate with me? All expenses paid trip to L.A.! Whenever your schedule permits. RMackey and Mark Roberts are afraid, and have turned down the same offer. What say you?
Ace Baker is starting to look pretty good!
But on the other hand and
OFF TOPIC:
The impact of the upper block of floors on the lower block may also be treated as a heavily damped vibration.........
This is where Cherepanov and Ross have it all wrong. The energy radiated as an elastic compression wave into the structure below was a small percentage of the impact energy.
Most of the impact damage
WAS LOCAL.
NF
What upper block, Frank?
Yo Frank, would you like to have a nice videotaped debate with me? All expenses paid trip to L.A.! Whenever your schedule permits. RMackey and Mark Roberts are afraid, and have turned down the same offer. What say you?
QUOTE
Everything in the towers was part of the dynamics.
Ahhhh....so then as, "part of the dynamics" the human bodies were sort of dematerialized to the extent that over 1,000 unfortunate people had not the slightest (we're talking smaller than what'll fit in test tube) evidence of their physical existance left. I see. Heck of a force, no? Do you have any other examples of its use and effects?
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 13 2007, 09:33 PM)
forthetrees
Then you are not just playing the fool on the internet, huh???
It is the same forces that apply in a high speed car accident and fire, why would a building disintegrating be any gentler on soft human bodies??? Human bodies don't do very well in any high energy environment or in simple fires. Where do you think the idea for crematoria came from??? A small portion of the fuel that kept the fires burning came from the thousands of bodies buried in the burning wreckage.
Now, come on, you really can't be that stupid, can you???
Grumpy
So, looks like you're still pretty much clueless, eh?
Then you are not just playing the fool on the internet, huh???
It is the same forces that apply in a high speed car accident and fire, why would a building disintegrating be any gentler on soft human bodies??? Human bodies don't do very well in any high energy environment or in simple fires. Where do you think the idea for crematoria came from??? A small portion of the fuel that kept the fires burning came from the thousands of bodies buried in the burning wreckage.
Now, come on, you really can't be that stupid, can you???
Grumpy
So, looks like you're still pretty much clueless, eh?
QUOTE (forthetrees+Feb 14 2007, 03:20 AM)
Ahhhh....so then as, "part of the dynamics" the human bodies were sort of dematerialized to the extent that over 1,000 unfortunate people had not the slightest (we're talking smaller than what'll fit in test tube) evidence of their physical existance left. I see. Heck of a force, no? Do you have any other examples of its use and effects?
To say nothing of the floor assemblies, including the steel floor pans, which also disintegrated. And all of the rest of the building contents. Dustified.
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 13 2007, 01:25 PM)
reasonwhy, in the future, why don't we leave debating unrelated topics to their forums or threads of origin.
I'm sure if I went to a chute packing forum, I could dig up all kinds of juicy comments from you and your partners, but it wouldn't really contribute the discussion at hand in this thread.
I am not debating anything with someone that advocates promoting homosexuality and sterilization to depopulate the planet.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=176614
Just because you get a screwball like Grumpster (and probably all your other OCT admirers) to agree with your wacky ideas doesn't make them right. Please, go find your "chute packing forum" and spam that thread with wacky ideas and posts that you rearrange the quotes.
I'm sure if I went to a chute packing forum, I could dig up all kinds of juicy comments from you and your partners, but it wouldn't really contribute the discussion at hand in this thread.
I am not debating anything with someone that advocates promoting homosexuality and sterilization to depopulate the planet.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=176614
Just because you get a screwball like Grumpster (and probably all your other OCT admirers) to agree with your wacky ideas doesn't make them right. Please, go find your "chute packing forum" and spam that thread with wacky ideas and posts that you rearrange the quotes.
9/11 Questions in the UK Mainstream Media this week
Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811
Guardian
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811
Guardian
Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory
We have to ask who stood to gain the most from the appalling events of 9/11, says Tim Sparke
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/st...2011845,00.html
BBC 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=conspiracy_files
MSN UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=conspiracy_files
MSN UK
On Sunday the BBC is showing a documentary on conspiracy theories surrounding the September 11 terror attacks in the US. It looks at whether the US government knew in advance about the attacks and questions why the US was so under-prepared. Could there be any solid foundation for such theories or is it about time that such ideas are put to rest and the attacks accepted as simple acts of terrorism and nothing more.
reasonwhy
What flowing red hot metal??? No cooled pools of metal were documented anywhere on site. This is just another CTer lie.
Grumpy
No, this is more OCT lies and I can prove it.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/...mg_debris_6.jpg
A structural engineer not knowing what he is talking about?
Since when does debris equal metal?
I don't see anybody denying that debris at ground zero could have been red hot, molten, or running.
Different materials could have been in any one of these states, but not necessarily all three at once.
Debris pile temperature estimates of 2000 F degrees would allow glass to be in a red hot molten state.
Metals such as aluminum and lead would be molten at 2000 F, but not likely red, unless they were mixed with other materials.
And what's with the image? is it suppose to show evidence of some kind?
Daily Mail
QUOTE
An explosion of disbelief - fresh doubts over 9/11
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811
Guardian
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| An explosion of disbelief - fresh doubts over 9/11 |
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811
Guardian
Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory
We have to ask who stood to gain the most from the appalling events of 9/11, says Tim Sparke
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/st...2011845,00.html
BBC 2
QUOTE
The Conspiracy Files
This week the series looks at the many theories surrounding the September 11 terrorist attacks.
This week the series looks at the many theories surrounding the September 11 terrorist attacks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=conspiracy_files
MSN UK
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The Conspiracy Files This week the series looks at the many theories surrounding the September 11 terrorist attacks. |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=conspiracy_files
MSN UK
On Sunday the BBC is showing a documentary on conspiracy theories surrounding the September 11 terror attacks in the US. It looks at whether the US government knew in advance about the attacks and questions why the US was so under-prepared. Could there be any solid foundation for such theories or is it about time that such ideas are put to rest and the attacks accepted as simple acts of terrorism and nothing more.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 14 2007, 06:16 AM)
I am not debating anything with someone that promotes homosexuality and sterilization to depopulate the planet.
reasonwhy, I don't think your partner roves shill will appreciate that comment, he's not too keen on homophobes.
If you've got issues with my views on population control, you might consider using the link you posted to share some of your wisdom on the subject.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=176614
As for wacky ideas, I'm not the one coming from the land of space beams, imaginary planes, and nuclear bombs in the basement.
All of your quotes were accurate and in order, with only a few minor deletions.
You CTs are constantly selectively quoting others to propagate your foolishness.
Remember the golden rule, you know, that do unto others thing.
If you've got issues with my views on population control, you might consider using the link you posted to share some of your wisdom on the subject.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=176614
QUOTE
Just because you get a screwball like Grumpster (and probably all your other OCT admirers) to agree with your wacky ideas does not make them right. Please, go find your "chute packing forum" and spam that thread with wacky ideas and post that you rearrange the quotes.
Remember, you brought up all of this off topic stuff and sarcasm, don't feign disgust and anger when it gets directed back at you. As for wacky ideas, I'm not the one coming from the land of space beams, imaginary planes, and nuclear bombs in the basement.
All of your quotes were accurate and in order, with only a few minor deletions.
You CTs are constantly selectively quoting others to propagate your foolishness.
Remember the golden rule, you know, that do unto others thing.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2007, 08:27 PM)
QUOTE ( Grumpy+ Feb 13 2007, 02:48 AM)
reasonwhy
What flowing red hot metal??? No cooled pools of metal were documented anywhere on site. This is just another CTer lie.
Grumpy
No, this is more OCT lies and I can prove it.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/...mg_debris_6.jpg
QUOTE
Quick Calculations
RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running. I did some quick numbers with Gary Panariello, an engineer from Thornton-Tomasetti, to try and determine what the load on WTC 6 was and how much of the lateral system of the building the contractor could take down. There were a lot of judgment calls; people had immediate needs and needed immediate responses.
Richard Garlock is an associate of LERA, whose founder Leslie E. Robertson is the structural engineer of record for the World Trade Center complex. Garlock used the firm's years of experience on the site, along with the vast collection of architectural and structural drawings, to advise the rescue and stabilization operations on structural issues.
RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running. I did some quick numbers with Gary Panariello, an engineer from Thornton-Tomasetti, to try and determine what the load on WTC 6 was and how much of the lateral system of the building the contractor could take down. There were a lot of judgment calls; people had immediate needs and needed immediate responses.
Richard Garlock is an associate of LERA, whose founder Leslie E. Robertson is the structural engineer of record for the World Trade Center complex. Garlock used the firm's years of experience on the site, along with the vast collection of architectural and structural drawings, to advise the rescue and stabilization operations on structural issues.
A structural engineer not knowing what he is talking about?
Since when does debris equal metal?
I don't see anybody denying that debris at ground zero could have been red hot, molten, or running.
Different materials could have been in any one of these states, but not necessarily all three at once.
Debris pile temperature estimates of 2000 F degrees would allow glass to be in a red hot molten state.
Metals such as aluminum and lead would be molten at 2000 F, but not likely red, unless they were mixed with other materials.
And what's with the image? is it suppose to show evidence of some kind?
QUOTE (AceBaker+Feb 14 2007, 05:26 AM)
To say nothing of the floor assemblies, including the steel floor pans, which also disintegrated. And all of the rest of the building contents. Dustified.
You can lead a horse to water, but...
You can lead a horse to water, but...
AceBaker:
You ask: "Would you like to have a nice videotaped debate with me? All expenses paid trip to L.A.!"
Sure, Ace, if you want to pay for someone to fly to L.A. to debate 9/11..... you obviously have more money than brains ......
But I've seen similar offers before and they proved to be all talk, no action.....
You're not Jimmy Walter by any chance are you?
And by the way, I think most people on this forum know what "upper block" I am talking about!
And I think you do to.....
NF
You ask: "Would you like to have a nice videotaped debate with me? All expenses paid trip to L.A.!"
Sure, Ace, if you want to pay for someone to fly to L.A. to debate 9/11..... you obviously have more money than brains ......
But I've seen similar offers before and they proved to be all talk, no action.....
You're not Jimmy Walter by any chance are you?
And by the way, I think most people on this forum know what "upper block" I am talking about!
And I think you do to.....
NF
QUOTE (roves shill+Feb 14 2007, 12:42 AM)
You might be happily married Capricus, but with that accusatory, homophobia showing, I doubt your wife is. I don't get the picture bit. Is that a defense?
Nothing personal meant by the suggestive quotes, I just got carried away with playing in the gutter with reasonwhy.
This picture is an example of a CD that would put any professional demolitionist out of business.
Just a tad bit too much collateral damage.
Nothing personal meant by the suggestive quotes, I just got carried away with playing in the gutter with reasonwhy.
This picture is an example of a CD that would put any professional demolitionist out of business.
Just a tad bit too much collateral damage.
[QUOTE=Capracus,Feb 14 2007, 12:39 PM]
No, this is more OCT lies and I can prove it.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/...mg_debris_6.jpg
A structural engineer not knowing what he is talking about?[/QUOTE]
Since when does debris equal metal?
I don't see anybody denying that debris at ground zero could have been red hot, molten, or running.
Different materials could have been in any one of these states, but not necessarily all three at once.
Debris pile temperature estimates of 2000 F degrees would allow glass to be in a red hot molten state.
Metals such as aluminum and lead would be molten at 2000 F, but not likely red, unless they were mixed with other materials.
And what's with the image? is it suppose to show evidence of some kind?[/QUOTE]
I have a question, how do you get steel or iron to run at red hot temperatures they have to be yellow-white hot before they will flow well at over 1500c?
That is the problem the materials themselves seen in the photographs are not hot enough to be flowing steel-Iron.
It would appear then that the materials in not steel but Aluminum or Lead, even glass can glow red hot and if it has contaminates in it, you can not tell it from molten metals. Without sampling!
We all know about the famous steel beam that could not be cut with a torch, yet I do see the pattern of an Oxygen lance cut on it, and can show you the steps that went into cutting it. And where it landed.
As far as human bodies goes, How many actual bodies were recovered from the plane crash at tell city Indiana, the one of the Lockheed Electra in Tell City Indiana.
Physics applies the same to the bodies as it does to the concrete.
No, this is more OCT lies and I can prove it.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/...mg_debris_6.jpg
A structural engineer not knowing what he is talking about?[/QUOTE]
Since when does debris equal metal?
I don't see anybody denying that debris at ground zero could have been red hot, molten, or running.
Different materials could have been in any one of these states, but not necessarily all three at once.
Debris pile temperature estimates of 2000 F degrees would allow glass to be in a red hot molten state.
Metals such as aluminum and lead would be molten at 2000 F, but not likely red, unless they were mixed with other materials.
And what's with the image? is it suppose to show evidence of some kind?[/QUOTE]
I have a question, how do you get steel or iron to run at red hot temperatures they have to be yellow-white hot before they will flow well at over 1500c?
That is the problem the materials themselves seen in the photographs are not hot enough to be flowing steel-Iron.
It would appear then that the materials in not steel but Aluminum or Lead, even glass can glow red hot and if it has contaminates in it, you can not tell it from molten metals. Without sampling!
We all know about the famous steel beam that could not be cut with a torch, yet I do see the pattern of an Oxygen lance cut on it, and can show you the steps that went into cutting it. And where it landed.
As far as human bodies goes, How many actual bodies were recovered from the plane crash at tell city Indiana, the one of the Lockheed Electra in Tell City Indiana.
Physics applies the same to the bodies as it does to the concrete.
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