QUOTE (newton+Apr 23 2007, 12:04 AM)
he simply cites griffin's work. he obviously has studied it, and agrees with it. why be redundant?
Because supposedly he has the ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS in a HARD SCIENCE, something Griffin lacks and because for the CD crowd it would be a FIRST.
You see, without SCIENCE behind you, like the NIST report, ALL you have is HANDWAVING.
Wave On.
Arthur
Because supposedly he has the ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS in a HARD SCIENCE, something Griffin lacks and because for the CD crowd it would be a FIRST.
You see, without SCIENCE behind you, like the NIST report, ALL you have is HANDWAVING.
Wave On.
Arthur
QUOTE (newton+Apr 23 2007, 12:55 AM)
FEA of NIST theory on youtube
proving me right again. the trusses fail at the truss seats, and have no strength for pulling in the massive columns.
no pulled in perimeter by trusses.
no instant release one storey drop.
no official bull will fly.
"Proving you right again"
SURELY YOU JEST.
Its absolutely HILARIOUS what you think constitutes PROOF.
proving me right again. the trusses fail at the truss seats, and have no strength for pulling in the massive columns.
no pulled in perimeter by trusses.
no instant release one storey drop.
no official bull will fly.
"Proving you right again"
SURELY YOU JEST.
Its absolutely HILARIOUS what you think constitutes PROOF.
QUOTE (The modeler+)
The model determined the weight of each floor slab (steel truss and concrete) at around 25 tons. I doubled it for the model.
But the perimeter columns were holding up MUCH more weight than that.
They were also heated (his model appears to show no such heating)
The force, needed for pull in of the external columns was less than the force needed for seat failure.
Arthur
But the perimeter columns were holding up MUCH more weight than that.
They were also heated (his model appears to show no such heating)
The force, needed for pull in of the external columns was less than the force needed for seat failure.
Arthur
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 23 2007, 09:22 AM)
DBB or someone else, could you explain why
1) crush-down is independent of the crush-up and no coupled process and they happen in a sequence
2) the E1 per story model is the only valid one
I think a model is just a model and that there are also models that don't lead to a global collapse.
(1) is quite a subtle point. I'll think about an appropriate answer and post about this later.
(2) The E1 style models are one-dimensional simplifications, or constitutive laws, describing the major features of crush-down progressive collapse. Greening did 9it one way. Using his work, I wrote a sightly different computer program. Bazant & Verdure independently wrote crush-down as a differential equation. This suggests that the actual physics is adequately captured by these E1 style equations.
While there are models that do not lead not global collapse, these fail to take the actual observations into account. The most important is the tilting of the top block, so that structural members are no longer concentrically axial. Thus the structural members can no longer exhibit full strength as designed. Once tilting occurs, it is essentially impossible to do more than determine E1 for all modes of energy consumption at once.
And it is actually hard to understand how the towers offered as much resistance as can be estimated. I have previously attempted some estimates for different building components and continue to come up lacking. My current understanding is that large amounts of energy were consumed in destroying the exterior walls.
A model is not just a model when it is constructed from first principles of physics. It becomes a constitutive law. Using the measurements done by NEU-FONZE, I have calibrated the B & V crush-down equation and the fit, for both towers, is remarkable good. Hence these E1 style laws describe the major features of progressive collapse, at least during the first few seconds. Other than changing mass gain or loss and changing E1 as the collapse continues, there is no reason to look to a more complex equation. So far.
1) crush-down is independent of the crush-up and no coupled process and they happen in a sequence
2) the E1 per story model is the only valid one
I think a model is just a model and that there are also models that don't lead to a global collapse.
(1) is quite a subtle point. I'll think about an appropriate answer and post about this later.
(2) The E1 style models are one-dimensional simplifications, or constitutive laws, describing the major features of crush-down progressive collapse. Greening did 9it one way. Using his work, I wrote a sightly different computer program. Bazant & Verdure independently wrote crush-down as a differential equation. This suggests that the actual physics is adequately captured by these E1 style equations.
While there are models that do not lead not global collapse, these fail to take the actual observations into account. The most important is the tilting of the top block, so that structural members are no longer concentrically axial. Thus the structural members can no longer exhibit full strength as designed. Once tilting occurs, it is essentially impossible to do more than determine E1 for all modes of energy consumption at once.
And it is actually hard to understand how the towers offered as much resistance as can be estimated. I have previously attempted some estimates for different building components and continue to come up lacking. My current understanding is that large amounts of energy were consumed in destroying the exterior walls.
A model is not just a model when it is constructed from first principles of physics. It becomes a constitutive law. Using the measurements done by NEU-FONZE, I have calibrated the B & V crush-down equation and the fit, for both towers, is remarkable good. Hence these E1 style laws describe the major features of progressive collapse, at least during the first few seconds. Other than changing mass gain or loss and changing E1 as the collapse continues, there is no reason to look to a more complex equation. So far.
QUOTE (adoucette+Apr 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE (The modeler+)
The model determined the weight of each floor slab (steel truss and concrete) at around 25 tons. I doubled it for the model.
But the perimeter columns were holding up MUCH more weight than that.
Yes. Story 98 weighed about 1530 tonnes with shagster estimating that less than 10% of that was structural steel. So I'd say the modeler simply does not know what he is doing...
But the perimeter columns were holding up MUCH more weight than that. [/QUOTE]
Yes. Story 98 weighed about 1530 tonnes with shagster estimating that less than 10% of that was structural steel. So I'd say the modeler simply does not know what he is doing...
Let's not forget to add the weight of an airplane.
But the perimeter columns were holding up MUCH more weight than that.
Yes. Story 98 weighed about 1530 tonnes with shagster estimating that less than 10% of that was structural steel. So I'd say the modeler simply does not know what he is doing...
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 23 2007, 09:22 AM)
crush-down is independent of the crush-up and no coupled process and they happen in a sequence
Greening, in his Energy Transfer paper, uses the seismograph traces to obtain a two-stage process.
Bazant & Verdure divide the falling towers into three zones: A, the top block; B, the crushed part; C, the bottom block. As crushing proceeds, zone B becomes more massive. They then state a requirement derived from the (unstated) equation of motion for zone B, expression (10) of their paper.
"This expression must be positive if the zone B is falling slower than a free fall, which is reasonable to expect and is confirmed by the solution to be given. ... So, neither upward, not two-sided simultaneous, propagation of crushing front is possible."
They then go on to point out that some crush-up can occur at collapse initiation which agrees with careful viewing of videos, as shagster has posted about. He also pointed out that once some small number of floors have been crushed into zone B, this protects zone A from further damage.
Example: Assume the stretch is 0.14 and zone B is four stories thick. Then zone B extends vertically for 0.14(4)(3.6576) = 2.0 meters of densely compacted materials. This then provides the crushing front destroying zone C.
====================
The above only applies to a strictly one-dimensional model. This appears to be good enough for WTC 1, but not for WTC 2 where it may well be that a considerable portion of zone A simply fell off to one side and so cannot be completely accurately understood in only one dimension...
Greening, in his Energy Transfer paper, uses the seismograph traces to obtain a two-stage process.
Bazant & Verdure divide the falling towers into three zones: A, the top block; B, the crushed part; C, the bottom block. As crushing proceeds, zone B becomes more massive. They then state a requirement derived from the (unstated) equation of motion for zone B, expression (10) of their paper.
"This expression must be positive if the zone B is falling slower than a free fall, which is reasonable to expect and is confirmed by the solution to be given. ... So, neither upward, not two-sided simultaneous, propagation of crushing front is possible."
They then go on to point out that some crush-up can occur at collapse initiation which agrees with careful viewing of videos, as shagster has posted about. He also pointed out that once some small number of floors have been crushed into zone B, this protects zone A from further damage.
Example: Assume the stretch is 0.14 and zone B is four stories thick. Then zone B extends vertically for 0.14(4)(3.6576) = 2.0 meters of densely compacted materials. This then provides the crushing front destroying zone C.
====================
The above only applies to a strictly one-dimensional model. This appears to be good enough for WTC 1, but not for WTC 2 where it may well be that a considerable portion of zone A simply fell off to one side and so cannot be completely accurately understood in only one dimension...
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Apr 23 2007, 02:03 PM)
But the perimeter columns were holding up MUCH more weight than that. [/QUOTE]
Yes. Story 98 weighed about 1530 tonnes with shagster estimating that less than 10% of that was structural steel. So I'd say the modeler simply does not know what he is doing...
Let's not forget to add the weight of an airplane.
from Kevin Ryan:
What a maroon.
QUOTE
It is simply a cowardly distinction between “structural steel” and “steel assemblies used within a structure” that is behind these false remarks by UL and Popular Mechanics (PM).
What a maroon.
KR says:
Really?
Determine THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
WOW!
But then we find out what his lawsuit is REALLY about.
MONEY for KEVIN.
Really?
Determine THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
WOW!
But then we find out what his lawsuit is REALLY about.
MONEY for KEVIN.
I've filed a lawsuit against UL for wrongful termination
Whooohooo.
What a big surprise.
NOT
Arthur
BS
Arthur
angus-reid poll
your full of it, as always, disinfo amateur, or lousy pro.
21% of people believe the official tripe when the poll was taken, October 14, 2006. i'm sure it's less, now.
i love rosie.
"Proving you right again"
SURELY YOU JEST.
Its absolutely HILARIOUS what you think constitutes PROOF.
you're right.
it's not proof.
an excellent illustration of the actual mechanisms, and weak points, though.
it certainly lends a lot of weight to the theory that truss seats break off of the perimeter before they pull it in.
you think everything that doesn't say "DARPA APPROVED" on it is 'hilarious'.
QUOTE
My ongoing lawsuit against UL will not only hold them accountable for their responsibility to public safety, it will help determine the future of our country.
Really?
Determine THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
WOW!
But then we find out what his lawsuit is REALLY about.
MONEY for KEVIN.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| My ongoing lawsuit against UL will not only hold them accountable for their responsibility to public safety, it will help determine the future of our country. |
Really?
Determine THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
WOW!
But then we find out what his lawsuit is REALLY about.
MONEY for KEVIN.
I've filed a lawsuit against UL for wrongful termination
Whooohooo.
What a big surprise.
NOT
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Apr 23 2007, 01:18 PM)
QUOTE
a poll that said that about 1/3 of Americans believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911
BS
Arthur
angus-reid poll
your full of it, as always, disinfo amateur, or lousy pro.
21% of people believe the official tripe when the poll was taken, October 14, 2006. i'm sure it's less, now.
i love rosie.
The event's of 7/11 need investiagtion, Arabic newspapers sudgest that 200 Jews didn't show up four work
QUOTE (adoucette+Apr 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
"Proving you right again"
SURELY YOU JEST.
Its absolutely HILARIOUS what you think constitutes PROOF.
you're right.
it's not proof.
an excellent illustration of the actual mechanisms, and weak points, though.
it certainly lends a lot of weight to the theory that truss seats break off of the perimeter before they pull it in.
you think everything that doesn't say "DARPA APPROVED" on it is 'hilarious'.
QUOTE (Soultechs+Apr 24 2007, 12:10 AM)
The event's of 7/11 need investiagtion, Arabic newspapers sudgest that 200 Jews didn't show up four work
And you believe them?
And you believe them?
From the Water Tester's letter to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).
by Kevin Ryan
Underwriters Laboratories
Thursday, Nov 11, 2004
From NIST Response to the World Trade Center Disaster February 12, 2004:
From NIST Response to the World Trade Center Disaster February 12, 2004:
NIST has not found any evidence indicating that a test based on ASTM E 119 had been conducted to determine the fire rating of the WTC floor system; Port Authority informed NIST that “there are no test records in our files”
From the October 19, 2004 NIST summery cited by the Water tester:
by Kevin Ryan
Underwriters Laboratories
Thursday, Nov 11, 2004
QUOTE
Dr. Gayle,
Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.
We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.
We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
From NIST Response to the World Trade Center Disaster February 12, 2004:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Dr. Gayle, Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly. We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all. |
From NIST Response to the World Trade Center Disaster February 12, 2004:
NIST has not found any evidence indicating that a test based on ASTM E 119 had been conducted to determine the fire rating of the WTC floor system; Port Authority informed NIST that “there are no test records in our files”
From the October 19, 2004 NIST summery cited by the Water tester:
QUOTE
No evidence that full-scale fire resistance test of the WTC floor system was conducted to determine the required fireproofing thickness; in 1966, the Architect of Record and, in 1975, the Structural Engineer of Record stated that the fire rating of the WTC floor system could not be determined without testing.
If he had reviewed the NIST summery more thoroughly, he would have learned that the floor assemblies had not been certified by UL or anyone else. Maybe he was also fired for his poor research skills. QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No evidence that full-scale fire resistance test of the WTC floor system was conducted to determine the required fireproofing thickness; in 1966, the Architect of Record and, in 1975, the Structural Engineer of Record stated that the fire rating of the WTC floor system could not be determined without testing. |
If he had reviewed the NIST summery more thoroughly, he would have learned that the floor assemblies had not been certified by UL or anyone else. Maybe he was also fired for his poor research skills.
Legal Defense Fund for Whistle-blower Kevin Ryan
Legal Defense Fund for Whistle-blower Kevin Ryan
The guy makes libelous statements against his own employer, criticizes a client using his employee title, and then has the gall to sue for wrongful termination. No amount of money can defend him from his own stupidity.
Whistle-blowers usually reveal some sort of concealed facts or evidence, but in this case, all of the facts were in plain sight, so KR is no whistle-blower, just a blow-hard.
Whistle-blowers usually reveal some sort of concealed facts or evidence, but in this case, all of the facts were in plain sight, so KR is no whistle-blower, just a blow-hard.
QUOTE
It is already clear that UL made a significant mistake in firing me, as indicated by the fact that they have hired several very large law firms to support them instead of handling this simple “water-tester” with the team of attorneys already on their payroll.
If it is true that UL is contracting extra legal muscle, maybe they are planning to counter-sue and make an example of the Water Tester and his ilk who are in the business of trashing their good name.QUOTE (Palpatane+Apr 24 2007, 02:27 AM)
from Kevin Ryan:
What a maroon.
The tests UL does are complete buildings assembly tests lights, electrical plugs, paint, furnishings, drywall, fire proofing and everything I saw them once in a movie produced by Random house for the Random house educational project, in the early 70s.
The rooms furnishings were on fire, a piece of steel the same as in the walls in the room melted but the walls and the steel with intact fire proofing held.
You can not test steel to 2000, unprotected it is not possible it oxidizes at 1350, and melts at 1565.
A building assembly is the completed product not the assembly of just one component. such as steel.
Yes the undamaged steel in a new undamaged building would have held, but he twin towers were not undamaged new buildings.
Comparing the UL tests to what happened in the actual building is like comparing a bone broken in a 4 year olds leg to one broken in an 80 year olds leg. Both will heal to some degree, but only one has potential for full recovery.
That is the main lie of Mr. Ryan that these buildings should be looked at out of context, like they were just built while in reality they have the signs of aging that buildings have over time.
I am still looking for that old movie on the construction of the towers, unfortunately Random House education no longer exists, and information on it is hard to find.
If that old film could be found it would answer a lot of the questions on the towers construction, as that was what the movie was Documenting the planing of the construction and the engineering that went into the buildings.
What a maroon.
The tests UL does are complete buildings assembly tests lights, electrical plugs, paint, furnishings, drywall, fire proofing and everything I saw them once in a movie produced by Random house for the Random house educational project, in the early 70s.
The rooms furnishings were on fire, a piece of steel the same as in the walls in the room melted but the walls and the steel with intact fire proofing held.
You can not test steel to 2000, unprotected it is not possible it oxidizes at 1350, and melts at 1565.
A building assembly is the completed product not the assembly of just one component. such as steel.
Yes the undamaged steel in a new undamaged building would have held, but he twin towers were not undamaged new buildings.
Comparing the UL tests to what happened in the actual building is like comparing a bone broken in a 4 year olds leg to one broken in an 80 year olds leg. Both will heal to some degree, but only one has potential for full recovery.
That is the main lie of Mr. Ryan that these buildings should be looked at out of context, like they were just built while in reality they have the signs of aging that buildings have over time.
I am still looking for that old movie on the construction of the towers, unfortunately Random House education no longer exists, and information on it is hard to find.
If that old film could be found it would answer a lot of the questions on the towers construction, as that was what the movie was Documenting the planing of the construction and the engineering that went into the buildings.
QUOTE (Chainsaw+,Apr 24 2007, 11:32 AM)
I am still looking for that old movie on the construction of the towers, unfortunately Random House education no longer exists, and information on it is hard to find.
If that old film could be found it would answer a lot of the questions on the towers construction, as that was what the movie was Documenting the planing of the construction and the engineering that went into the buildings.
Chainsaw, is this the documentary you are looking for?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...on+of+wtc&hl=en
If that old film could be found it would answer a lot of the questions on the towers construction, as that was what the movie was Documenting the planing of the construction and the engineering that went into the buildings.
Chainsaw, is this the documentary you are looking for?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...on+of+wtc&hl=en
QUOTE (Capracus+Apr 24 2007, 11:44 AM)
Chainsaw, is this the documentary you are looking for?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...on+of+wtc&hl=en
NO,
The film I am looking for includes some of that footage but also other footage, in more detail on the science, it was specifically produced by Random house in the late sixties early 70s and explains the steel tests and how science was going into building modern sky scrapers especially the new tube frame ones.
The title of the film was "Reaching for the Sky" Modern Architecture Science and Engineering for stronger safer buildings.
After the Random House learning and reading system failed Random House Education was disbanded the materials were I am told just dumped.
Hancock County Kentucky was one of the pilot test Areas for the Random House Project and received federal funding for he testing.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...on+of+wtc&hl=en
NO,
The film I am looking for includes some of that footage but also other footage, in more detail on the science, it was specifically produced by Random house in the late sixties early 70s and explains the steel tests and how science was going into building modern sky scrapers especially the new tube frame ones.
The title of the film was "Reaching for the Sky" Modern Architecture Science and Engineering for stronger safer buildings.
After the Random House learning and reading system failed Random House Education was disbanded the materials were I am told just dumped.
Hancock County Kentucky was one of the pilot test Areas for the Random House Project and received federal funding for he testing.
QUOTE (newton+Apr 24 2007, 12:58 AM)
angus-reid poll
your full of it, as always, disinfo amateur, or lousy pro.
21% of people believe the official tripe when the poll was taken, October 14, 2006. i'm sure it's less, now.
i love rosie.
But the answer to that Poll Question doesn't mean what you claim it does.
your full of it, as always, disinfo amateur, or lousy pro.
21% of people believe the official tripe when the poll was taken, October 14, 2006. i'm sure it's less, now.
i love rosie.
But the answer to that Poll Question doesn't mean what you claim it does.
QUOTE (newton+ once again caught lying thru his teeth )
a poll that said that about 1/3 of Americans believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911
The question DID NOT ask:
Do you believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911?
What it asks is if you believe the Bush Admin was mostly lying about what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Not surprising you can't tell though.
Arthur
The question DID NOT ask:
Do you believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911?
What it asks is if you believe the Bush Admin was mostly lying about what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Not surprising you can't tell though.
Arthur
On 9-11 I like many others got covered by the very fine dust in this picture http : / / 9 1 1 r e s e a r c h . w t c 7 . n e t / w t c / e v i d e n c e / p h o t o s / s t r e e t s 1 . h t m l (sorry about the spaces to avoid the filter).
Analysis of that dust showed it to be a 50 micron sized powder with 45% silicon content.
Since this dust was not there before the WTC buildings disintegrated, the silicon in the concrete and glass would have to be pulverized into this fine powder in less than 15 seconds.
I studied mechanical engineering in college and have a good understanding of strength of materials, but I know of no way to turn an intact piece of concrete or pane of glass into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds without explosives.
Even in strength of materials class where we put concrete under enough pressure to make it compression fail, it turned into sand sized particles but not into a powder fine enough to hold a footprint like in the above link.
Even if you drop a piece of concrete or glass off the top of a WTC tower, you will get not get a 50 micron powder!
Therefore any hypothesis of why the WTC towers fell after returning to a static mechanics state for an hour after the dynamic mechanics state from the airplane hit ended, must EXPLAIN where the energy came from and how it was converted into the kind of force to make this 50 micron powder given that compression failure from a fall or from weight lying on top of concrete cannot do it.
I have yet to see any hypothesis including the official one EXPLAIN how this could be done in less than 15 seconds without explosives or a chemical reaction.
After 9-11 I like many others watching the cleanup over the months were amazed at the lack of any visible pieces of concrete, file cabinets, chairs, desks, tables, sinks, toilets, phones, computers, or any of the other stuff one would expect to find.
If the towers came down solely because of gravity surely these items would expected to be found, especially those items residing on the on the top floor, which should have ended up on the top of the debris pile?
I have yet to see any hypothesis including the official one EXPLAIN how all the office items on the top floor could be pulverized without having any weight laying on top of them.
Analysis of that dust showed it to be a 50 micron sized powder with 45% silicon content.
Since this dust was not there before the WTC buildings disintegrated, the silicon in the concrete and glass would have to be pulverized into this fine powder in less than 15 seconds.
I studied mechanical engineering in college and have a good understanding of strength of materials, but I know of no way to turn an intact piece of concrete or pane of glass into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds without explosives.
Even in strength of materials class where we put concrete under enough pressure to make it compression fail, it turned into sand sized particles but not into a powder fine enough to hold a footprint like in the above link.
Even if you drop a piece of concrete or glass off the top of a WTC tower, you will get not get a 50 micron powder!
Therefore any hypothesis of why the WTC towers fell after returning to a static mechanics state for an hour after the dynamic mechanics state from the airplane hit ended, must EXPLAIN where the energy came from and how it was converted into the kind of force to make this 50 micron powder given that compression failure from a fall or from weight lying on top of concrete cannot do it.
I have yet to see any hypothesis including the official one EXPLAIN how this could be done in less than 15 seconds without explosives or a chemical reaction.
After 9-11 I like many others watching the cleanup over the months were amazed at the lack of any visible pieces of concrete, file cabinets, chairs, desks, tables, sinks, toilets, phones, computers, or any of the other stuff one would expect to find.
If the towers came down solely because of gravity surely these items would expected to be found, especially those items residing on the on the top floor, which should have ended up on the top of the debris pile?
I have yet to see any hypothesis including the official one EXPLAIN how all the office items on the top floor could be pulverized without having any weight laying on top of them.
criticalthinker --- You need to read more on comminution. Turns out that the source of the energy does not matter and the particle size distribution is well known. There will be some bigger pieces (as are seen in many visuals of Ground Zero) more smaller ones, etc. Eventually adding more energy won't change the size distribution since the smaller ones 'hide' in the cracks of the larger ones.
There was a super-abundance of energy available to comminute materials. The towers hit the ground at about 50 m/s and came to rest 6 stories later in the sub-basement.
==================
The top office floor was below the top pair of mechanical floors and some specialized floors above that. See the appendix to NCSTAR1-2A.
There was a super-abundance of energy available to comminute materials. The towers hit the ground at about 50 m/s and came to rest 6 stories later in the sub-basement.
==================
The top office floor was below the top pair of mechanical floors and some specialized floors above that. See the appendix to NCSTAR1-2A.
re: David Benson
I know how fine that silicon laden dust was because I got covered with it and had to run into the subway to avoid being choked to death or getting silicosis like all the other poor souls who breathed in that silicon laden dust.
I will give you or anyone the title to my house, car, bank account, clothes off my back and every material possesion I own, if they can turn an intact slab of concrete into a 50 micron powder that can hold a boot print like in that picture, in less than 15 seconds using the just force of gravity and weight.
Simply post your video on youtube showing how you did it, and point me to the link and I will pay up.
I know how fine that silicon laden dust was because I got covered with it and had to run into the subway to avoid being choked to death or getting silicosis like all the other poor souls who breathed in that silicon laden dust.
I will give you or anyone the title to my house, car, bank account, clothes off my back and every material possesion I own, if they can turn an intact slab of concrete into a 50 micron powder that can hold a boot print like in that picture, in less than 15 seconds using the just force of gravity and weight.
Simply post your video on youtube showing how you did it, and point me to the link and I will pay up.
QUOTE (adoucette+Apr 24 2007, 07:40 PM)
But the answer to that Poll Question doesn't mean what you claim it does.
The question DID NOT ask:
Do you believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911?
What it asks is if you believe the Bush Admin was mostly lying about what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Not surprising you can't tell though.
Arthur
geez. this is the first time you've actually accused me of lying.
i didn't lie.
that was only one poll i randomly grabbed to show what a lying dog you are.
here's another, from Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.
here's another, 'live vote' from msnbc(i had to vote to get the results)
here's another, 'live vote' from msnbc(i had to vote to get the results)
Do you believe any of the conspiracy theories suggesting the U.S. government was somehow involved in 9/11? * 76361 responses
Yes. The government has left many questions unanswered about that day.
63%
No. These theories are absurd and disrespectful -- especially to those who lost their lives on 9/11.
32%
I'm not sure.
5.6%
zogby, new york poll, 2004
mister poll:
and YOU are the one who made it seem ludicrous that 30% of the people believe the administration is lying.
you spin yourself until your dizzy, buddy. maybe all the egg will fly off of your face.
so, you were wrong about the 2000% reserve capacity of the perimeter, and wrong about 30% of americans.
are you going to admit it?
The question DID NOT ask:
Do you believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911?
What it asks is if you believe the Bush Admin was mostly lying about what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Not surprising you can't tell though.
Arthur
geez. this is the first time you've actually accused me of lying.
i didn't lie.
that was only one poll i randomly grabbed to show what a lying dog you are.
here's another, from Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.
QUOTE
Seventy percent of people who give credence to these theories also say they've become angrier with the federal government than they used to be.
Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."
"One out of three sounds high, but that may very well be right," said Lee Hamilton, former vice chairman of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also called the 9/11 commission.) His congressionally appointed investigation concluded that federal officials bungled their attempts to prevent, but did not participate in, the attacks by al Qaeda five years ago.
source
Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."
"One out of three sounds high, but that may very well be right," said Lee Hamilton, former vice chairman of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also called the 9/11 commission.) His congressionally appointed investigation concluded that federal officials bungled their attempts to prevent, but did not participate in, the attacks by al Qaeda five years ago.
source
here's another, 'live vote' from msnbc(i had to vote to get the results)
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Seventy percent of people who give credence to these theories also say they've become angrier with the federal government than they used to be. Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East." "One out of three sounds high, but that may very well be right," said Lee Hamilton, former vice chairman of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also called the 9/11 commission.) His congressionally appointed investigation concluded that federal officials bungled their attempts to prevent, but did not participate in, the attacks by al Qaeda five years ago. source |
here's another, 'live vote' from msnbc(i had to vote to get the results)
Do you believe any of the conspiracy theories suggesting the U.S. government was somehow involved in 9/11? * 76361 responses
Yes. The government has left many questions unanswered about that day.
63%
No. These theories are absurd and disrespectful -- especially to those who lost their lives on 9/11.
32%
I'm not sure.
5.6%
zogby, new york poll, 2004
mister poll:
QUOTE
Osama Bin Laden (35%)
Bush administration (30%)
CIA (18%)
Saudi Arabia (7%)
Larry Silverstein (6%)
NASA (2%)
Bush administration (30%)
CIA (18%)
Saudi Arabia (7%)
Larry Silverstein (6%)
NASA (2%)
and YOU are the one who made it seem ludicrous that 30% of the people believe the administration is lying.
you spin yourself until your dizzy, buddy. maybe all the egg will fly off of your face.
so, you were wrong about the 2000% reserve capacity of the perimeter, and wrong about 30% of americans.
are you going to admit it?
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 08:11 PM)
re: David Benson
I know how fine that silicon laden dust was because I got covered with it and had to run into the subway to avoid being choked to death or getting silicosis like all the other poor souls who breathed in that silicon laden dust.
I will give you or anyone the title to my house, car, bank account, clothes off my back and every material possesion I own, if they can turn an intact slab of concrete into a 50 micron powder that can hold a boot print like in that picture, in less than 15 seconds using the just force of gravity and weight.
Simply post your video on youtube showing how you did it, and point me to the link and I will pay up.
I do not want your stuff, But I can, do just that.
Concrete is a chemical compound and it can be destroyed though aging in the right environment. silicon was only one of the elements in the concrete and not the most important one.
Let me age the concrete a few decades over the right conditions and I can do just that destroy its structure.
That is exactly what I have just been studying on my own.
IT is simply a mater of time, chemical reactions and heating that break down the Chemical bonds and weaken them.
We are not talking a new building were talking a building that is decades old age has to be taken into account in this.
I know how fine that silicon laden dust was because I got covered with it and had to run into the subway to avoid being choked to death or getting silicosis like all the other poor souls who breathed in that silicon laden dust.
I will give you or anyone the title to my house, car, bank account, clothes off my back and every material possesion I own, if they can turn an intact slab of concrete into a 50 micron powder that can hold a boot print like in that picture, in less than 15 seconds using the just force of gravity and weight.
Simply post your video on youtube showing how you did it, and point me to the link and I will pay up.
I do not want your stuff, But I can, do just that.
Concrete is a chemical compound and it can be destroyed though aging in the right environment. silicon was only one of the elements in the concrete and not the most important one.
Let me age the concrete a few decades over the right conditions and I can do just that destroy its structure.
That is exactly what I have just been studying on my own.
IT is simply a mater of time, chemical reactions and heating that break down the Chemical bonds and weaken them.
We are not talking a new building were talking a building that is decades old age has to be taken into account in this.
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 08:11 PM)
Simply post your video on youtube ...
I don't post videos nor watch such. But you can watch any of the many videos of the collapse of the towers to see how it was done.
As I said, you actually have to read about the important engineering subject of comminution.
I don't post videos nor watch such. But you can watch any of the many videos of the collapse of the towers to see how it was done.
As I said, you actually have to read about the important engineering subject of comminution.
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 08:11 PM)
re: David Benson
I know how fine that silicon laden dust was because I got covered with it and had to run into the subway to avoid being choked to death or getting silicosis like all the other poor souls who breathed in that silicon laden dust.
I will give you or anyone the title to my house, car, bank account, clothes off my back and every material possesion I own, if they can turn an intact slab of concrete into a 50 micron powder that can hold a boot print like in that picture, in less than 15 seconds using the just force of gravity and weight.
Simply post your video on youtube showing how you did it, and point me to the link and I will pay up.
you are absolutely right, of course, critical thinker.
there is only no way gravity alone can make an even blend of ultrafine powder which consists of ALL materials in the towers in fifteen seconds.
there is no way something collapses on itself, and leaves nothing on top of the pile. where's the hat trusses? the antenna? where's the pyramid shaped pile?
no, everything was clearly blown up with some extremely high energy devices.
I know how fine that silicon laden dust was because I got covered with it and had to run into the subway to avoid being choked to death or getting silicosis like all the other poor souls who breathed in that silicon laden dust.
I will give you or anyone the title to my house, car, bank account, clothes off my back and every material possesion I own, if they can turn an intact slab of concrete into a 50 micron powder that can hold a boot print like in that picture, in less than 15 seconds using the just force of gravity and weight.
Simply post your video on youtube showing how you did it, and point me to the link and I will pay up.
you are absolutely right, of course, critical thinker.
there is only no way gravity alone can make an even blend of ultrafine powder which consists of ALL materials in the towers in fifteen seconds.
there is no way something collapses on itself, and leaves nothing on top of the pile. where's the hat trusses? the antenna? where's the pyramid shaped pile?
no, everything was clearly blown up with some extremely high energy devices.
QUOTE (Chainsaw+,Apr 24 2007, 08:30 PM)
I do not want your stuff, But I can, do just that.
Concrete is a chemical compound and it can be destroyed though aging in the right environment. silicon was only one of the elements in the concrete and not the most important one.
Let me age the concrete a few decades over the right conditions and I can do just that destroy its structure.
That is exactly what I have just been studying on my own.
IT is simply a mater of time, chemical reactions and heating that break down the Chemical bonds and weaken them.
We are not talking a new building were talking a building that is decades old age has to be taken into account in this.
and this 'aging' also affected all the filing cabinets, desks, windows, people, carpets, vinyl tile, hardwood floors, windows, doors, computers.....
you'll need to pulverise an ratio equivalent of those materials, too, as seen in the dust analysis, if you really want to show something relevent.
another thing. skyscrapers are regularly inspected for signs of degradation through aging and stress. if there was a problem with the concrete, it would have mentioned in the NIST report.
Concrete is a chemical compound and it can be destroyed though aging in the right environment. silicon was only one of the elements in the concrete and not the most important one.
Let me age the concrete a few decades over the right conditions and I can do just that destroy its structure.
That is exactly what I have just been studying on my own.
IT is simply a mater of time, chemical reactions and heating that break down the Chemical bonds and weaken them.
We are not talking a new building were talking a building that is decades old age has to be taken into account in this.
and this 'aging' also affected all the filing cabinets, desks, windows, people, carpets, vinyl tile, hardwood floors, windows, doors, computers.....
you'll need to pulverise an ratio equivalent of those materials, too, as seen in the dust analysis, if you really want to show something relevent.
another thing. skyscrapers are regularly inspected for signs of degradation through aging and stress. if there was a problem with the concrete, it would have mentioned in the NIST report.
re: Chainsaw
Do you understand that you CANNOT make flour from wheat kernels by dropping it off a tall building like the WTC towers?
Do you understand that crumbling concrete or compression failed concrete DOES NOT not break into 50 micron sized particles?
You CAN break old or new concrete into small pieces by applying force to make it compression fail, but you CANNOT make 50 micron sized particles that way no matter how much force you appy to it!
If you ever took any engineering material science classes you know that you must either use abrasives/explosives/reactions to make micron sized material particles, there simply is no other way.
Go to any engineering college that has a machine that can compression fail concrete, and see for yourself that the result is sand sized particles and not 50 micron dust.
So unless the WTC towers were a giant grinding wheel or a a giant chemical beaker filled with concrete reducing chemicals, you are left with explosives!
Do you understand that you CANNOT make flour from wheat kernels by dropping it off a tall building like the WTC towers?
Do you understand that crumbling concrete or compression failed concrete DOES NOT not break into 50 micron sized particles?
You CAN break old or new concrete into small pieces by applying force to make it compression fail, but you CANNOT make 50 micron sized particles that way no matter how much force you appy to it!
If you ever took any engineering material science classes you know that you must either use abrasives/explosives/reactions to make micron sized material particles, there simply is no other way.
Go to any engineering college that has a machine that can compression fail concrete, and see for yourself that the result is sand sized particles and not 50 micron dust.
So unless the WTC towers were a giant grinding wheel or a a giant chemical beaker filled with concrete reducing chemicals, you are left with explosives!
re: Chainsaw
My 50 year old concrete street DOES NOT crumble into 50 micron sized dust when cars drive over it or when weights are dropped on it, does yours do that?
My 50 year old concrete street DOES NOT crumble into 50 micron sized dust when cars drive over it or when weights are dropped on it, does yours do that?
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 08:57 PM)
re: Chainsaw
My 50 year old concrete street DOES NOT crumble into 50 micron sized dust when cars drive over it or when weights are dropped on it, does yours do that?
50 micron is a bit big really. There is lots of smaller dust, which I have well documented in the previous thread.
This post links to all the important bits - including source dust studies and energy analysis and concrete volume/dispersal analysis.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?act=ST&...ndpost&p=167418
I should add that I have only been able to estimate the energy requirement for the concrete dust beyond 400m radius. I wanted to do the eneergy analysis for destruction of glass fibre to 2mm lengths but am having trouble figuring out the fracture energy for glass. Perhaps you can help being an engineer.
You may also be interested to read about engineers comments on WTC:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...80entry157122
BTW you can get to the good stuff on this board by choosing posters you would like to read more on, clicking their name, and clicking "find all posts by this member" - link just under the name. There is a lot of chaff and some really good nuggets hiding away.
My 50 year old concrete street DOES NOT crumble into 50 micron sized dust when cars drive over it or when weights are dropped on it, does yours do that?
50 micron is a bit big really. There is lots of smaller dust, which I have well documented in the previous thread.
This post links to all the important bits - including source dust studies and energy analysis and concrete volume/dispersal analysis.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?act=ST&...ndpost&p=167418
I should add that I have only been able to estimate the energy requirement for the concrete dust beyond 400m radius. I wanted to do the eneergy analysis for destruction of glass fibre to 2mm lengths but am having trouble figuring out the fracture energy for glass. Perhaps you can help being an engineer.
You may also be interested to read about engineers comments on WTC:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...80entry157122
BTW you can get to the good stuff on this board by choosing posters you would like to read more on, clicking their name, and clicking "find all posts by this member" - link just under the name. There is a lot of chaff and some really good nuggets hiding away.
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 08:50 PM)
You CAN break old or new concrete into small pieces by applying force to make it compression fail, but you CANNOT make 50 micron sized particles that way no matter how much force you appy[sic] to it!
Not true.
Take a sand-sized piece of the shattered concrete and put that into the compression test machine.
What happens?
Not true.
Take a sand-sized piece of the shattered concrete and put that into the compression test machine.
What happens?
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 02:57 PM)
re: Chainsaw
My 50 year old concrete street DOES NOT crumble into 50 micron sized dust when cars drive over it or when weights are dropped on it, does yours do that?
Hmm, your street is at least 10 inches thick, I suppose, and well supported underneath by a stable road bed. I would also guess that the concrete is a typical heavyweight aggregate mix, don't ya think?
Furthermore, I imagine that there are control joints cut into the surface every 25 feet or so. How wide is your street? 30' or so?
The WTC floors were made of lightweight concrete, supported by a fairly flexible joist system.
Oh yeah, and they were about an acre in total size and only 4 inches thick. That is an area to thickness ratio that is less than a typical potato chip.
My 50 year old concrete street DOES NOT crumble into 50 micron sized dust when cars drive over it or when weights are dropped on it, does yours do that?
Hmm, your street is at least 10 inches thick, I suppose, and well supported underneath by a stable road bed. I would also guess that the concrete is a typical heavyweight aggregate mix, don't ya think?
Furthermore, I imagine that there are control joints cut into the surface every 25 feet or so. How wide is your street? 30' or so?
The WTC floors were made of lightweight concrete, supported by a fairly flexible joist system.
Oh yeah, and they were about an acre in total size and only 4 inches thick. That is an area to thickness ratio that is less than a typical potato chip.
QUOTE (blue74+Apr 24 2007, 09:12 PM)
BTW you can get to the good stuff on this board by choosing posters you would like to read more on, clicking their name, and clicking "find all posts by this member" - link just under the name. There is a lot of chaff and some really good nuggets hiding away.
blue74 --- Welcome back!
criticalthinker --- Poster NEU-FONZE has done more than any other to analyze concrete comminution. He has referenced many papers on the subject. (He and blue74 have yet to come to some sort of agreement.)
Nonetheless, my own analysis of the energy flows comes up rather lacking except for the effectively unlimited amount of energy which could have gone into comminution.
blue74 --- Welcome back!
criticalthinker --- Poster NEU-FONZE has done more than any other to analyze concrete comminution. He has referenced many papers on the subject. (He and blue74 have yet to come to some sort of agreement.)
Nonetheless, my own analysis of the energy flows comes up rather lacking except for the effectively unlimited amount of energy which could have gone into comminution.
QUOTE (newton+Apr 24 2007, 08:36 PM)
there is no way something collapses on itself, and leaves nothing on top of the pile. where's the hat trusses? the antenna? where's the pyramid shaped pile?
Somewhere back on this thread or maybe the part 2 thread there is posted a visual which is clearly part of a hat truss. With little effort one can find visuals of the antenna tower in West Street and another visual of the aircraft warning antenna with an American flag being flown from it. It is at the top of an approximately pyramid shaped debris pile.
Jeez.
Somewhere back on this thread or maybe the part 2 thread there is posted a visual which is clearly part of a hat truss. With little effort one can find visuals of the antenna tower in West Street and another visual of the aircraft warning antenna with an American flag being flown from it. It is at the top of an approximately pyramid shaped debris pile.
Jeez.
Re: David Benson
If you put a sand size particle in a compression test machine, it will simply settle in the uneven ridges of the seemingly smooth surface which are bigger than 50 microns.
Why do you think industry uses abrasives to make fine powders instead of dropping the material or putting it into a press?
I repeat - go to an engineering school and watch a concrete compression test, instead of "guessing" about what you think happens, and find out what actually happens!
The 50 micron concrete dust is the DISPROOF of the official hypothesis, and that is why the proponents of the official hypothesis do not talk about it.
If you put a sand size particle in a compression test machine, it will simply settle in the uneven ridges of the seemingly smooth surface which are bigger than 50 microns.
Why do you think industry uses abrasives to make fine powders instead of dropping the material or putting it into a press?
I repeat - go to an engineering school and watch a concrete compression test, instead of "guessing" about what you think happens, and find out what actually happens!
The 50 micron concrete dust is the DISPROOF of the official hypothesis, and that is why the proponents of the official hypothesis do not talk about it.
re: Palpatane
It does not matter how light or how thick an intact piece of concrete is!
When it compression fails it turns into sand sized particles.
If you want to turn them into a 50 micron sized powder, you must either grind it with abrasives, blow it up with explosives, or chemically react away the most of the concrete until only 50 micron sized particles are left.
I repeat - if anybody can figure out a way to turn an intact piece of concrete into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds using gravity and weight alone, I will give everything I own to them, even though they would not need it, since they would have a billion dollar patent for replacing abrasives in industry!
It does not matter how light or how thick an intact piece of concrete is!
When it compression fails it turns into sand sized particles.
If you want to turn them into a 50 micron sized powder, you must either grind it with abrasives, blow it up with explosives, or chemically react away the most of the concrete until only 50 micron sized particles are left.
I repeat - if anybody can figure out a way to turn an intact piece of concrete into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds using gravity and weight alone, I will give everything I own to them, even though they would not need it, since they would have a billion dollar patent for replacing abrasives in industry!
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 10:20 PM)
If you put a sand size particle in a compression test machine, it will simply settle in the uneven ridges of the seemingly smooth surface which are bigger than 50 microns.
Why do you think industry uses abrasives to make fine powders instead of dropping the material or putting it into a press?
Your first sentence makes no sense whatsoever. Do note I said sand-sized. 1--2 mm.
As for the second, industry uses the energetically most efficient means. There is nothing requiring nature to do the same.
Now do go actually read something about comminution and the resulting size distribution of the result against the energy supplied to the comminution process.
Why do you think industry uses abrasives to make fine powders instead of dropping the material or putting it into a press?
Your first sentence makes no sense whatsoever. Do note I said sand-sized. 1--2 mm.
As for the second, industry uses the energetically most efficient means. There is nothing requiring nature to do the same.
Now do go actually read something about comminution and the resulting size distribution of the result against the energy supplied to the comminution process.
Re: David B Benson
If the poster NEU-FONZE knows how to turn an intact piece of concrete into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds by using gravity to drop it and having the weight of debris fall on top of it, he should patent the process and become a billionaire for his revolutionary process for replacing abrasives.
I repeat - you can compression fail concrete into sand sized particles but not a 50 micron powder as everybody who has ever done a concrete compression test will tell you, and which you can find out for yourself by visting an engineering school or concrete manufacturer.
If the poster NEU-FONZE knows how to turn an intact piece of concrete into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds by using gravity to drop it and having the weight of debris fall on top of it, he should patent the process and become a billionaire for his revolutionary process for replacing abrasives.
I repeat - you can compression fail concrete into sand sized particles but not a 50 micron powder as everybody who has ever done a concrete compression test will tell you, and which you can find out for yourself by visting an engineering school or concrete manufacturer.
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 10:40 PM)
I repeat - you can compression fail concrete into sand sized particles but not a 50 micron powder ...
In a compression test machine. That is not comminution.
Ever heard of a ball mill? That is one form of comminution.
In a compression test machine. That is not comminution.
Ever heard of a ball mill? That is one form of comminution.
Re: David B Benson
You did not understand my sentence because you do not understand that surfaces are not perfectly smooth!
We know the environment in the WTC did not end up with the concrete being trapped between two hard metal surfaces polished so smooth that the grooves and valleys between them was 50 microns or less.
Therefore no force could be applied to the sand sized particles that result when concrete compression fails, because they simply settle between the grooves and valleys of the surfaces upon which the forces are acting.
If you want to believe the FALSEHOOD that concrete compression fails into 50 micron sized particles, instead of visiting an engineering school or concrete manufacturer to see the TRUTH that concrete compression fails into sand sized particles, so be it.
I repeat - that is why expensive abrasive grinding makes wheat kernels into flour instead of cheap dropping of weights.
There is nothing more for me to say on the matter, because you have to believe the LIE that 50 micron concrete dust can me made that way because it official hypothesis depends on it.
You did not understand my sentence because you do not understand that surfaces are not perfectly smooth!
We know the environment in the WTC did not end up with the concrete being trapped between two hard metal surfaces polished so smooth that the grooves and valleys between them was 50 microns or less.
Therefore no force could be applied to the sand sized particles that result when concrete compression fails, because they simply settle between the grooves and valleys of the surfaces upon which the forces are acting.
If you want to believe the FALSEHOOD that concrete compression fails into 50 micron sized particles, instead of visiting an engineering school or concrete manufacturer to see the TRUTH that concrete compression fails into sand sized particles, so be it.
I repeat - that is why expensive abrasive grinding makes wheat kernels into flour instead of cheap dropping of weights.
There is nothing more for me to say on the matter, because you have to believe the LIE that 50 micron concrete dust can me made that way because it official hypothesis depends on it.
Re: David B Benson
And the inside of the WTC was like a ball mill that grinded all the concrete floors and window panes in 15 seconds into a 50 micron powder?
Thank you for proving my point, that 50 micron concrete dust cannot be created in a building falling down SOLELY under the influence of gravity!
If you do not believe that you can make a 50 micron concrete dust by compression faliure alone, they you cannot LOGICALLY believe that the WTC towers fell down SOLELY under the influence of gravity, right?
Unless of course you believe that the WTC towers were giant ball mills!
And the inside of the WTC was like a ball mill that grinded all the concrete floors and window panes in 15 seconds into a 50 micron powder?
Thank you for proving my point, that 50 micron concrete dust cannot be created in a building falling down SOLELY under the influence of gravity!
If you do not believe that you can make a 50 micron concrete dust by compression faliure alone, they you cannot LOGICALLY believe that the WTC towers fell down SOLELY under the influence of gravity, right?
Unless of course you believe that the WTC towers were giant ball mills!
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 11:00 PM)
You did not understand my sentence because you do not understand that surfaces are not perfectly smooth!
I certainly do understand that surfaces are not perfect. But I failed to understand your sentence as a reply to my question. Never mind.
From Wikipedia: "Comminution is also the reducing to a fine powder or small pieces."
Until you understand the energetics of comminution, you'll still go on thinking that it is just concrete compression failure tests. Not so. Consider a ball mill...
I certainly do understand that surfaces are not perfect. But I failed to understand your sentence as a reply to my question. Never mind.
From Wikipedia: "Comminution is also the reducing to a fine powder or small pieces."
Until you understand the energetics of comminution, you'll still go on thinking that it is just concrete compression failure tests. Not so. Consider a ball mill...
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 11:07 PM)
... they[sic] you cannot LOGICALLY believe that the WTC towers fell down SOLELY under the influence of gravity, right?
Actually, logically and methodically, I agree with the conclusion that the towers fell solely under the influence of gravity. With some resistance to that fall. By making use of measurements of the first few seconds of each tower provided by NEU-FONZE. And using first principles of physics, checking the equations of Greening and also Bazant & Verdure.
The point behind suggesting ball mills was to aid you in considering other processes than the rather artificial setting of a concrete compression test machine. So now I'll once again point out to you that about 500,000 tonnes of building were compacted and falling at about 50 m/s (that's over 160 mph) when it all hit the plaza concrete. That much energy suffices to produce comminuted pieces over a wide range of sizes. Including fine powders, although most of it, by weight, will be larger.
It's not your piddly little compression failure test machine.
Actually, logically and methodically, I agree with the conclusion that the towers fell solely under the influence of gravity. With some resistance to that fall. By making use of measurements of the first few seconds of each tower provided by NEU-FONZE. And using first principles of physics, checking the equations of Greening and also Bazant & Verdure.
The point behind suggesting ball mills was to aid you in considering other processes than the rather artificial setting of a concrete compression test machine. So now I'll once again point out to you that about 500,000 tonnes of building were compacted and falling at about 50 m/s (that's over 160 mph) when it all hit the plaza concrete. That much energy suffices to produce comminuted pieces over a wide range of sizes. Including fine powders, although most of it, by weight, will be larger.
It's not your piddly little compression failure test machine.
David B. Benson
What critical thinker is saying cannot happen is true. You cannot turn ALL of a piece of concrete into 50 micron powder by natural means. But you certainly CAN turn SOME of a single piece of concrete into 50 micron pieces through the size distribution of all the particles due to commutation. And since the smaller particles will be carried away in suspension in the air while larger sand size particles settle out one would expect any particles found in airborne dust to ALL be of the smaller sizes. Where critical thinker goes astray is in thinking that since ALL particles found in the airborne dust are of the smaller sizes then ALL of the commutated concrete must be of this size, that is NOT true. Most of the concrete was in pebble, rock and boulder sizes and was found in the subbasements where the desks, file cabinets and other debris that he and newton are saying are missing was found(1.6 million TONS of it).
critical thinker
Slam a sledge hammer into a piece of concrete and you will get some micron sized dust, some sand sized particles and the rest will be pebble sized and larger. Bust up several thousand TONS of this concrete in this way and you will generate TONS of micron sized dust, hundreds of tons of sand sized particles and thousands of tons of pebble, fist and larger sized rubble. Just as we see in the rubble of the towers. This is the distribution of sizes expected from commutation, no explosives required. The claim that ALL of the concrete was "dustified" is untrue, just some of it.
Grumpy
What critical thinker is saying cannot happen is true. You cannot turn ALL of a piece of concrete into 50 micron powder by natural means. But you certainly CAN turn SOME of a single piece of concrete into 50 micron pieces through the size distribution of all the particles due to commutation. And since the smaller particles will be carried away in suspension in the air while larger sand size particles settle out one would expect any particles found in airborne dust to ALL be of the smaller sizes. Where critical thinker goes astray is in thinking that since ALL particles found in the airborne dust are of the smaller sizes then ALL of the commutated concrete must be of this size, that is NOT true. Most of the concrete was in pebble, rock and boulder sizes and was found in the subbasements where the desks, file cabinets and other debris that he and newton are saying are missing was found(1.6 million TONS of it).
critical thinker
Slam a sledge hammer into a piece of concrete and you will get some micron sized dust, some sand sized particles and the rest will be pebble sized and larger. Bust up several thousand TONS of this concrete in this way and you will generate TONS of micron sized dust, hundreds of tons of sand sized particles and thousands of tons of pebble, fist and larger sized rubble. Just as we see in the rubble of the towers. This is the distribution of sizes expected from commutation, no explosives required. The claim that ALL of the concrete was "dustified" is untrue, just some of it.
Grumpy
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 08:50 PM)
re: Chainsaw
Do you understand that you CANNOT make flour from wheat kernels by dropping it off a tall building like the WTC towers?
Do you understand that crumbling concrete or compression failed concrete DOES NOT not break into 50 micron sized particles?
You CAN break old or new concrete into small pieces by applying force to make it compression fail, but you CANNOT make 50 micron sized particles that way no matter how much force you appy to it!
If you ever took any engineering material science classes you know that you must either use abrasives/explosives/reactions to make micron sized material particles, there simply is no other way.
Go to any engineering college that has a machine that can compression fail concrete, and see for yourself that the result is sand sized particles and not 50 micron dust.
So unless the WTC towers were a giant grinding wheel or a a giant chemical beaker filled with concrete reducing chemicals, you are left with explosives!
Maybe not, Concrete in a Jar,
This picture of of the remains of natrual concrete decay rehydrated.

The towers contained a lot of gypsum in the concrete at 350c it becomes plaster of Parris and degrades.
Temperature and Chemical reactions can degrade concrete and it can happen from the bottom side where it goes un noticed until to late.
Such concretes can be easily destroyed with minimal force.
The thing you do not want to expose concrete to is Clorosulfonic acid that actually can form naturally. Then expose it to heat and it is no longer concrete.
Light weight concrete is a mixture of Concrete Aggregate such as limestone, gypsum and other compounds it is highly venerable to acid attack from what I have seen.
If the concrete is already degraded by the time the building is falling less energy has to go into destroying it. More can go into the destruction of the office components.
Oh there is natural Clorosulfonic in the jar as well as hydrogen sulfide stinks like rotten eggs, I am trying to firure out where the sulfides come from, that is still a mistery but I believe the source might be microbial, Bacteria.
If the concrete has damage that is and has been hidden then it might not be such a mystery after all.
PS. Oh there are other things to this that can actually bring a buildings down but I am sure a Cter will call me a nut for mentioning them.
Go ahead with your thermate elves and space beam weapons stuff I have to investigate some more interestion stuff I have discovered on this.
Do you understand that you CANNOT make flour from wheat kernels by dropping it off a tall building like the WTC towers?
Do you understand that crumbling concrete or compression failed concrete DOES NOT not break into 50 micron sized particles?
You CAN break old or new concrete into small pieces by applying force to make it compression fail, but you CANNOT make 50 micron sized particles that way no matter how much force you appy to it!
If you ever took any engineering material science classes you know that you must either use abrasives/explosives/reactions to make micron sized material particles, there simply is no other way.
Go to any engineering college that has a machine that can compression fail concrete, and see for yourself that the result is sand sized particles and not 50 micron dust.
So unless the WTC towers were a giant grinding wheel or a a giant chemical beaker filled with concrete reducing chemicals, you are left with explosives!
Maybe not, Concrete in a Jar,
This picture of of the remains of natrual concrete decay rehydrated.
The towers contained a lot of gypsum in the concrete at 350c it becomes plaster of Parris and degrades.
Temperature and Chemical reactions can degrade concrete and it can happen from the bottom side where it goes un noticed until to late.
Such concretes can be easily destroyed with minimal force.
The thing you do not want to expose concrete to is Clorosulfonic acid that actually can form naturally. Then expose it to heat and it is no longer concrete.
Light weight concrete is a mixture of Concrete Aggregate such as limestone, gypsum and other compounds it is highly venerable to acid attack from what I have seen.
If the concrete is already degraded by the time the building is falling less energy has to go into destroying it. More can go into the destruction of the office components.
Oh there is natural Clorosulfonic in the jar as well as hydrogen sulfide stinks like rotten eggs, I am trying to firure out where the sulfides come from, that is still a mistery but I believe the source might be microbial, Bacteria.
If the concrete has damage that is and has been hidden then it might not be such a mystery after all.
PS. Oh there are other things to this that can actually bring a buildings down but I am sure a Cter will call me a nut for mentioning them.
Go ahead with your thermate elves and space beam weapons stuff I have to investigate some more interestion stuff I have discovered on this.
Grumpy --- It certainly seemed to me that he was saying that no fines would be produced.
But you and I are certainly otherwise in agreement.
And, by the way, web trawling on the search phrase 'comminution size distribution' brings up scads of papers, including at least one which discusses drop tests, that is, dropping weights on the sample to be comminuted...
But you and I are certainly otherwise in agreement.
And, by the way, web trawling on the search phrase 'comminution size distribution' brings up scads of papers, including at least one which discusses drop tests, that is, dropping weights on the sample to be comminuted...
NF posted on the problems of trying to explain pulverization with explosives.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7444&st=10785
(about halfway down the page)
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7444&st=10785
(about halfway down the page)
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Apr 24 2007, 10:04 PM)
Somewhere back on this thread or maybe the part 2 thread there is posted a visual which is clearly part of a hat truss. With little effort one can find visuals of the antenna tower in West Street and another visual of the aircraft warning antenna with an American flag being flown from it. It is at the top of an approximately pyramid shaped debris pile.
Jeez.
i was reading about typical fires in the bronx.
it is known by firemen, that the bathrooms are dangerous. years of water leakage rot the floor joists under bathrooms.
one firemen told of a story where he went into a bathroom on the sixth floor, and it collapsed.
OF COURSE, it PAUSED momentarily at every floor, as an ACTUAL 'pancake collapse' occured.
he simply walked away, completely unharmed.
the top of the building should be completely unharmed, and there should be a stack of 'pancakes' with a pyramid pile several stories high on top.
of course, we know that the top part was the first thing to be destroyed.
poor david. such a waste of a fine mind. you could be helping. NF, too(although, i still wonder if the most brilliant conspiracy theorist on the planet).
Jeez.
i was reading about typical fires in the bronx.
it is known by firemen, that the bathrooms are dangerous. years of water leakage rot the floor joists under bathrooms.
one firemen told of a story where he went into a bathroom on the sixth floor, and it collapsed.
OF COURSE, it PAUSED momentarily at every floor, as an ACTUAL 'pancake collapse' occured.
he simply walked away, completely unharmed.
the top of the building should be completely unharmed, and there should be a stack of 'pancakes' with a pyramid pile several stories high on top.
of course, we know that the top part was the first thing to be destroyed.
poor david. such a waste of a fine mind. you could be helping. NF, too(although, i still wonder if the most brilliant conspiracy theorist on the planet).
After that post by NF, the argument turned away from high explosives as the cause of pulverization and toward thermobaric bombs that supposedly created dust by causing concrete slabs to slam into one another, the same mechanism by which dust is created during a gravity-driven collapse. The thermobaric bombs were said to have cloaked themselves in the dust so as to give the same appearance as a gravity-driven collapse.
QUOTE (shagster+Apr 25 2007, 12:41 AM)
After that post by NF, the argument turned away from high explosives as the cause of pulverization and toward thermobaric bombs that supposedly created dust by causing concrete slabs to slam into one another, the same mechanism by which dust is created during a gravity-driven collapse. The thermobaric bombs were said to have cloaked themselves in the dust so as to give the same appearance as a gravity-driven collapse.
Check the 1993 bombing the main accelerate was hydrogen, that cause the explosion to expand rapidly into the concrete, air blasts would cause the same.
Check the 1993 bombing the main accelerate was hydrogen, that cause the explosion to expand rapidly into the concrete, air blasts would cause the same.
QUOTE (newton+Apr 25 2007, 12:37 AM)
the top of the building should be completely unharmed, and there should be a stack of 'pancakes' with a pyramid pile several stories high on top.
of course, we know that the top part was the first thing to be destroyed.
False and false again.
For WTC 1, the top block was 14 stories high, moving at about 50 m/s when it suddenly was halted. Fell apart. When it fell apart it was far from a neat stacking of bagels. From NCSTAR1-5A (I think) one has the evidence of a rather chaotic disassembly. Also some of the Ground Zero evidence supports this.
The top block was the last part of the WTC 1 tower to be destroyed. I just yesterday posted about why this must have occurred. The evidence gathered by shagster suggests the situation for WTC 2 was rather more complex.
Got it now?
of course, we know that the top part was the first thing to be destroyed.
False and false again.
For WTC 1, the top block was 14 stories high, moving at about 50 m/s when it suddenly was halted. Fell apart. When it fell apart it was far from a neat stacking of bagels. From NCSTAR1-5A (I think) one has the evidence of a rather chaotic disassembly. Also some of the Ground Zero evidence supports this.
The top block was the last part of the WTC 1 tower to be destroyed. I just yesterday posted about why this must have occurred. The evidence gathered by shagster suggests the situation for WTC 2 was rather more complex.
Got it now?
QUOTE (criticalthinker+Apr 24 2007, 04:28 PM)
re: Palpatane
It does not matter how light or how thick an intact piece of concrete is!
When it compression fails it turns into sand sized particles.
If you want to turn them into a 50 micron sized powder, you must either grind it with abrasives, blow it up with explosives, or chemically react away the most of the concrete until only 50 micron sized particles are left.
I repeat - if anybody can figure out a way to turn an intact piece of concrete into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds using gravity and weight alone, I will give everything I own to them, even though they would not need it, since they would have a billion dollar patent for replacing abrasives in industry!
A compresion failure of a concrete slab would be a single action event. The WTC slabs were also impacted against each other with the resulting friction and abrasion making smaller particles.
Even if only a small fraction of the concrete turned into 50 micron particles, given the total volume of concrete in the buidlings, that small fraction would have been enough to generate a significant amount of dust.
not to mention all the drywall that was ground up as well.
It does not matter how light or how thick an intact piece of concrete is!
When it compression fails it turns into sand sized particles.
If you want to turn them into a 50 micron sized powder, you must either grind it with abrasives, blow it up with explosives, or chemically react away the most of the concrete until only 50 micron sized particles are left.
I repeat - if anybody can figure out a way to turn an intact piece of concrete into a 50 micron sized powder in less than 15 seconds using gravity and weight alone, I will give everything I own to them, even though they would not need it, since they would have a billion dollar patent for replacing abrasives in industry!
A compresion failure of a concrete slab would be a single action event. The WTC slabs were also impacted against each other with the resulting friction and abrasion making smaller particles.
Even if only a small fraction of the concrete turned into 50 micron particles, given the total volume of concrete in the buidlings, that small fraction would have been enough to generate a significant amount of dust.
not to mention all the drywall that was ground up as well.
QUOTE (newton+Apr 25 2007, 12:37 AM)
i was reading about typical fires in the bronx.
it is known by firemen, that the bathrooms are dangerous. years of water leakage rot the floor joists under bathrooms.
one firemen told of a story where he went into a bathroom on the sixth floor, and it collapsed.
OF COURSE, it PAUSED momentarily at every floor, as an ACTUAL 'pancake collapse' occured.
he simply walked away, completely unharmed.
it is known by firemen, that the bathrooms are dangerous. years of water leakage rot the floor joists under bathrooms.
one firemen told of a story where he went into a bathroom on the sixth floor, and it collapsed.
OF COURSE, it PAUSED momentarily at every floor, as an ACTUAL 'pancake collapse' occured.
he simply walked away, completely unharmed.
What newton leaves out of the story is that the floor joists in the bathrooms of these older buildings contained dry rot from years of exposure to water leakage. These bathrooms were located in the same area of each floor, one above the other. The rotted floors each supported heavy cast iron bathtubs, and were a progressive collapse waiting to happen. When a fire fighter's weight collapsed an upper fire damaged floor, the rotted, overloaded floors below offered little resistance. The rotted floor sections just punched out, one after another all the way to the bottom.
Re the 33%
Once again newton is lying.
Once again newton is lying.
QUOTE (newton once again caught lying thru his teeth+)
a poll that said that about 1/3 of Americans believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911
First he says its just a random poll, so now here's the new poll he posts
http://newspolls.org/question.php?question_id=716
Question/VAR 27:
There are also accusations being made following the 9/11 terrorist attack. One of these is:
People in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted to United States to go to war in the Middle East.*
Very likely 16%
Somewhat likely 20%
Not likely 59%
Don't know 5%
So again, they get the higher numbers by COMBINING two possibilities, so once again, you have a poll that doesn't support your claim.
What I find MOST hilarious though is the demographics:
people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.
To put these numbers in persepctive, this question was asked in the same poll:
Question/VAR 26:
The federal government is withholding proof of the existence of intelligent life from others planets?*
Vyer likely 16%
Somewhat likely 22%
Unlikely 54%
Don't know 8%
and
The collapse if the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings.*
Very likely 6%
Somewhat likely 10%
Unlikely 77%
Don't know 6%
Other response 1%
So Troofers, congratulations, ~ 6 years after 9/11 the number of people you have managed to convince that explosives brought down the towers appears to have not changed at all.
Arthur
First he says its just a random poll, so now here's the new poll he posts
http://newspolls.org/question.php?question_id=716
Question/VAR 27:
There are also accusations being made following the 9/11 terrorist attack. One of these is:
People in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted to United States to go to war in the Middle East.*
Very likely 16%
Somewhat likely 20%
Not likely 59%
Don't know 5%
So again, they get the higher numbers by COMBINING two possibilities, so once again, you have a poll that doesn't support your claim.
What I find MOST hilarious though is the demographics:
people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.
To put these numbers in persepctive, this question was asked in the same poll:
Question/VAR 26:
The federal government is withholding proof of the existence of intelligent life from others planets?*
Vyer likely 16%
Somewhat likely 22%
Unlikely 54%
Don't know 8%
and
The collapse if the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings.*
Very likely 6%
Somewhat likely 10%
Unlikely 77%
Don't know 6%
Other response 1%
So Troofers, congratulations, ~ 6 years after 9/11 the number of people you have managed to convince that explosives brought down the towers appears to have not changed at all.
Arthur
QUOTE (Capracus+Apr 25 2007, 01:53 AM)
What newton leaves out of the story is that the floor joists in the bathrooms of these older buildings contained dry rot from years of exposure to water leakage. These bathrooms were located in the same area of each floor, one above the other. The rotted floors each supported heavy cast iron bathtubs, and were a progressive collapse waiting to happen. When a fire fighter's weight collapsed an upper fire damaged floor, the rotted, overloaded floors below offered little resistance. The rotted floor sections just punched out, one after another all the way to the bottom.
i didn't 'leave it out'. i THOUGHT the parallels were obvious to denizens of a physics board.
and, in light of these parallels, the barely suspended bathrooms are quite similiar to the floor joists.
and, so, once again, the parallel is the firemen represents the broken off top of the tower(assuming that the broken off cap has more ability to retain it's form that the bathroom floors, like the math of OCTs that assume the cap maintains it's ability to couple it's mass into a single 'hammerhead'), and this fireman was COMPLETELY UNHARMED, and the floors STOPPED at each impact with another floor.
that's some eighty stops and starts for the towers, similiar to judy woods billiard ball analogy.
so, are you saying that the floors at the WTC offered MORE resistance than the rotted bathroom floors?
either way, you're argument is sunk.
more resistance means complete stops and starts, and perhaps even collapse arrest with a HUGE partially intact 'cap' on top of a pyramid pile.
less resistance means the buildings probably couldn't stand at all.
i didn't 'leave it out'. i THOUGHT the parallels were obvious to denizens of a physics board.
and, in light of these parallels, the barely suspended bathrooms are quite similiar to the floor joists.
and, so, once again, the parallel is the firemen represents the broken off top of the tower(assuming that the broken off cap has more ability to retain it's form that the bathroom floors, like the math of OCTs that assume the cap maintains it's ability to couple it's mass into a single 'hammerhead'), and this fireman was COMPLETELY UNHARMED, and the floors STOPPED at each impact with another floor.
that's some eighty stops and starts for the towers, similiar to judy woods billiard ball analogy.
so, are you saying that the floors at the WTC offered MORE resistance than the rotted bathroom floors?
either way, you're argument is sunk.
more resistance means complete stops and starts, and perhaps even collapse arrest with a HUGE partially intact 'cap' on top of a pyramid pile.
less resistance means the buildings probably couldn't stand at all.
QUOTE (adoucette+Apr 25 2007, 02:24 AM)
Re the 33%
Once again newton is lying.
Once again newton is lying.
QUOTE (newton once again caught lying thru his teeth+)
a poll that said that about 1/3 of Americans believe that the Bush Administration was behind 911
First he says its just a random poll, so now here's the new poll he posts
http://newspolls.org/question.php?question_id=716
Question/VAR 27:
There are also accusations being made following the 9/11 terrorist attack. One of these is:
People in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted to United States to go to war in the Middle East.*
Very likely 16%
Somewhat likely 20%
Not likely 59%
Don't know 5%
call me a liar and then publish statistics that back up the premise of my argument.
very likely plus somewhat likely equals 36%.
HAHA! desperate, spinning OCTur.
the polls i linked to are there for everyone to visit and analyze for themselves. your spidey web of lies is getting serious dry rot.
oh, this tangled web ye weave.
and, more importantly, you are arguing little semantical bits, when the MEAT of the polls indicate that fully 80% of the government is lying about SOMETHING.
where's your democracy, now, amerika? what happened to 'majority rule', fool? oh, right. you don't CARE, because you are in the controlling minority.
and, more importantly, you are arguing little semantical bits, when the MEAT of the polls indicate that fully 80% of the government is lying about SOMETHING.
where's your democracy, now, amerika? what happened to 'majority rule', fool? oh, right. you don't CARE, because you are in the controlling minority.
should say:
...fully 80% of the PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT the government is lying....
hey, i'm celebrating! sorry i can't type and drink at the same time.
First he says its just a random poll, so now here's the new poll he posts
http://newspolls.org/question.php?question_id=716
Question/VAR 27:
There are also accusations being made following the 9/11 terrorist attack. One of these is:
People in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted to United States to go to war in the Middle East.*
Very likely 16%
Somewhat likely 20%
Not likely 59%
Don't know 5%
call me a liar and then publish statistics that back up the premise of my argument.
very likely plus somewhat likely equals 36%.
HAHA! desperate, spinning OCTur.
the polls i linked to are there for everyone to visit and analyze for themselves. your spidey web of lies is getting serious dry rot.
oh, this tangled web ye weave.
and, more importantly, you are arguing little semantical bits, when the MEAT of the polls indicate that fully 80% of the government is lying about SOMETHING.
where's your democracy, now, amerika? what happened to 'majority rule', fool? oh, right. you don't CARE, because you are in the controlling minority.
giuliana says, 'implosion'
gee, that's two insider illuminati saying the same thing within two days(kerry being the other). and, hr. 333 is about impeaching cheney.
go figger. i think i'll go fold some money to see what happens next.
gee, that's two insider illuminati saying the same thing within two days(kerry being the other). and, hr. 333 is about impeaching cheney.
go figger. i think i'll go fold some money to see what happens next.
QUOTE (newton+Apr 25 2007, 12:37 AM)
NF, too(although, i still wonder if the most brilliant conspiracy theorist on the planet).
too late to edit, so correction is:
...still wonder if HE IS the most brilliant....
too late to edit, so correction is:
...still wonder if HE IS the most brilliant....
QUOTE (newton+Apr 25 2007, 03:27 AM)
and, more importantly, you are arguing little semantical bits, when the MEAT of the polls indicate that fully 80% of the government is lying about SOMETHING.
where's your democracy, now, amerika? what happened to 'majority rule', fool? oh, right. you don't CARE, because you are in the controlling minority.
should say:
...fully 80% of the PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT the government is lying....
hey, i'm celebrating! sorry i can't type and drink at the same time.
QUOTE (newton+Apr 25 2007, 03:16 AM)
i didn't 'leave it out'. i THOUGHT the parallels were obvious to denizens of a physics board.
and, in light of these parallels, the barely suspended bathrooms are quite similiar to the floor joists.
and, so, once again, the parallel is the firemen represents the broken off top of the tower(assuming that the broken off cap has more ability to retain it's form that the bathroom floors, like the math of OCTs that assume the cap maintains it's ability to couple it's mass into a single 'hammerhead'), and this fireman was COMPLETELY UNHARMED, and the floors STOPPED at each impact with another floor.
that's some eighty stops and starts for the towers, similiar to judy woods billiard ball analogy.
so, are you saying that the floors at the WTC offered MORE resistance than the rotted bathroom floors?
either way, you're argument is sunk.
more resistance means complete stops and starts, and perhaps even collapse arrest with a HUGE partially intact 'cap' on top of a pyramid pile.
less resistance means the buildings probably couldn't stand at all.
What you left out was that you had six floors of defective bathrooms stacked one on top of the other. I was just trying to show the inherent weakness of the situation. If an intact floor had existed below the top bathroom, the progressive collapse would not likely have continued.
There are some parallels between the bathrooms and the towers. Both structures would have survived if not for their fire damage. As Chainsaw would attempt to argue, both structures may have suffered from chemical or biological degradation. Both suffered progressive collapses.
In the case of the bathroom collapse, I don't think the fireman qualifies as a substitute for additional floor masses. For the collapses to be similar, you would need to add 10-20 floor masses to the bathroom model. I think that would take care of the pauses experienced by the firefighter on his ride to the bottom.
Considering a single WTC floor could only support about 1.5 static floor masses, why would you think that a single floor would do much to slow the movement of 10-20 or more floor masses?
and, in light of these parallels, the barely suspended bathrooms are quite similiar to the floor joists.
and, so, once again, the parallel is the firemen represents the broken off top of the tower(assuming that the broken off cap has more ability to retain it's form that the bathroom floors, like the math of OCTs that assume the cap maintains it's ability to couple it's mass into a single 'hammerhead'), and this fireman was COMPLETELY UNHARMED, and the floors STOPPED at each impact with another floor.
that's some eighty stops and starts for the towers, similiar to judy woods billiard ball analogy.
so, are you saying that the floors at the WTC offered MORE resistance than the rotted bathroom floors?
either way, you're argument is sunk.
more resistance means complete stops and starts, and perhaps even collapse arrest with a HUGE partially intact 'cap' on top of a pyramid pile.
less resistance means the buildings probably couldn't stand at all.
What you left out was that you had six floors of defective bathrooms stacked one on top of the other. I was just trying to show the inherent weakness of the situation. If an intact floor had existed below the top bathroom, the progressive collapse would not likely have continued.
There are some parallels between the bathrooms and the towers. Both structures would have survived if not for their fire damage. As Chainsaw would attempt to argue, both structures may have suffered from chemical or biological degradation. Both suffered progressive collapses.
In the case of the bathroom collapse, I don't think the fireman qualifies as a substitute for additional floor masses. For the collapses to be similar, you would need to add 10-20 floor masses to the bathroom model. I think that would take care of the pauses experienced by the firefighter on his ride to the bottom.
Considering a single WTC floor could only support about 1.5 static floor masses, why would you think that a single floor would do much to slow the movement of 10-20 or more floor masses?
QUOTE (newton+Apr 25 2007, 01:00 AM)
should say:
...fully 80% of the PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT the government is lying....
hey, i'm celebrating! sorry i can't type and drink at the same time.
Clean your computer screen.
It says 59% DON'T believe that BS.
What's more the next higher catagory is "SOMEWHAT likely" which is not an indication of a strong belief.
Then the question is actually two scenarios, one of which is a "Let it Happen" which I'm not surprised that more people would SUSPECT.
Then there is the FINAL caveat.
The LESS EDUCATED YOU ARE, the MORE LIKELY you are to believe this:
people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.
Arthur
...fully 80% of the PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT the government is lying....
hey, i'm celebrating! sorry i can't type and drink at the same time.
Clean your computer screen.
It says 59% DON'T believe that BS.
What's more the next higher catagory is "SOMEWHAT likely" which is not an indication of a strong belief.
Then the question is actually two scenarios, one of which is a "Let it Happen" which I'm not surprised that more people would SUSPECT.
Then there is the FINAL caveat.
The LESS EDUCATED YOU ARE, the MORE LIKELY you are to believe this:
people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.
Arthur
That’s nice Arthur. Can we now conclude that the republicans (including the rednecks and the creationists) are smarter than the democrats? I don’t know from which science report those bold letters come from but even if this is true it is meaningless. Maybe it will influence some uneducated CT’ers to leave the movement because they feel smart. In the politics in the Netherlands this kind of strategic examinations also appear sometimes in the media when there is a populistic politician who is going to do very well. We shouldn’t care about what others think or believe.
adoucette
I find it interesting that the percentages of CTers and UFO buffs are so close. But as for Democrats, I don't know of a single one who buys the CTer line, maybe because our education cancels the tendency. As for there being a direct relationship between the less intelectually capable and the CTers, WELL DUH!!! Just as in the case of UFOs, the more you know(and understand) about the subject, the less likely you will accept such silly concepts.
Case in point
newton
There is no simularity at all. The floor joists of the twin towers are not equivalent to rotted wooden floors and the weight of a firefighter is not equivalent to the weight of the top section of the towers.
Grumpy
I find it interesting that the percentages of CTers and UFO buffs are so close. But as for Democrats, I don't know of a single one who buys the CTer line, maybe because our education cancels the tendency. As for there being a direct relationship between the less intelectually capable and the CTers, WELL DUH!!! Just as in the case of UFOs, the more you know(and understand) about the subject, the less likely you will accept such silly concepts.
Case in point
newton
QUOTE
and, in light of these parallels, the barely suspended bathrooms are quite similiar to the floor joists.
There is no simularity at all. The floor joists of the twin towers are not equivalent to rotted wooden floors and the weight of a firefighter is not equivalent to the weight of the top section of the towers.
Grumpy
I still don't get it. If I was a shadowy arm of the government, and I was out to get maximum effect from flying some remote controlled airplanes into the Twin Towers to cover up a thermonuclear blast that would pulverize the concrete into some odd sized microns of dust, the question would remain.
WHY?
Shoot, I would rather the news went from cover to cover about how the Terrorists had thermonuclear weapons from Iraq and Iran so I could go to town on the entire middle east.
Seriously, why would I bother to cover up such a wonderful way to control America? In fact I would have gone a tad bit further and laid waste to much of New York for more impact. Would have been able to write my own check to go kick the snot out of Iran and Iraq. Maybe the Saudi's too! Whats a few more thousand people if I am willing to kill 3-4000 anyhow?
For you guys that have the notion in your head that the US government with Bushie boy and Cheney somehow concocted this, get a grip. They aren't clever enough, nor good enough to have pulled that off without a lot of people willing to come forward and hang them from the trees in the front of the Whitehouse. At the best, they knew something was going to happen, they just didn't know what. Kind of like Katrina... Just let it happen. Then make the big $$$$ afterwards.
Our government is NOT competent enough to have pulled off something this good. Heck, they can't even create a WMD in Iraq for all to find...
Check your tobacco pipe, I think someone slipped some crack in there.
MM
WHY?
Shoot, I would rather the news went from cover to cover about how the Terrorists had thermonuclear weapons from Iraq and Iran so I could go to town on the entire middle east.
Seriously, why would I bother to cover up such a wonderful way to control America? In fact I would have gone a tad bit further and laid waste to much of New York for more impact. Would have been able to write my own check to go kick the snot out of Iran and Iraq. Maybe the Saudi's too! Whats a few more thousand people if I am willing to kill 3-4000 anyhow?
For you guys that have the notion in your head that the US government with Bushie boy and Cheney somehow concocted this, get a grip. They aren't clever enough, nor good enough to have pulled that off without a lot of people willing to come forward and hang them from the trees in the front of the Whitehouse. At the best, they knew something was going to happen, they just didn't know what. Kind of like Katrina... Just let it happen. Then make the big $$$$ afterwards.
Our government is NOT competent enough to have pulled off something this good. Heck, they can't even create a WMD in Iraq for all to find...
Check your tobacco pipe, I think someone slipped some crack in there.
MM
i find it interesting that belief in ufos is mentioned so often in relation to 9/11 conspiracy research.
ufos have nothing to do with 9/11.
sorry, but the rotted bathrooms are a very good analogy. adding more floors above does not change the 'battle' of momentum transfers. the top 20 floors would being impacting lower floors of like strength, and so it would be a up one for one down trade at every floor, and this would cushion the ride for the top floors. if there were twenty falling on six, then when the pile stops, there should be some intact bathroom floors on top of the pile, the last fourteen floors could then begin pnacking one floor at a time in the same manner as the original analogy, with a safe and sound firemen standing on top of as pile of 26 bathrooms.
curiously, grumpy, how can anyone 'know' so much as you claim to know about ufos? they're unidentified flying objects, you know. they show up on radar, film and video. mulitple eyewitnesses and, most interestingly, pilots, see them all the time. some times they are chased by military jets. official reports are written. what is the 'silly concept'?
ufos have nothing to do with 9/11.
sorry, but the rotted bathrooms are a very good analogy. adding more floors above does not change the 'battle' of momentum transfers. the top 20 floors would being impacting lower floors of like strength, and so it would be a up one for one down trade at every floor, and this would cushion the ride for the top floors. if there were twenty falling on six, then when the pile stops, there should be some intact bathroom floors on top of the pile, the last fourteen floors could then begin pnacking one floor at a time in the same manner as the original analogy, with a safe and sound firemen standing on top of as pile of 26 bathrooms.
curiously, grumpy, how can anyone 'know' so much as you claim to know about ufos? they're unidentified flying objects, you know. they show up on radar, film and video. mulitple eyewitnesses and, most interestingly, pilots, see them all the time. some times they are chased by military jets. official reports are written. what is the 'silly concept'?
newton
No, they are not. Apples and oranges, they are both fruits(collapses) but they are in no other way comparable, as anyone who UNDERSTOOD would KNOW.
No, they are not. Apples and oranges, they are both fruits(collapses) but they are in no other way comparable, as anyone who UNDERSTOOD would KNOW.
curiously, grumpy, how can anyone 'know' so much as you claim to know about ufos? they're unidentified flying objects, you know. they show up on radar, film and video. mulitple eyewitnesses and, most interestingly, pilots, see them all the time. some times they are chased by military jets. official reports are written. what is the 'silly concept'?
The distances in this universe, with the lightspeed limit, precludes any visitation by aliens. The more you UNDERSTAND about the limits the physical laws put on moving matter(or information movement, for that matter) the more unlikely you KNOW it is. That people see things in the air that are not identified in no way means that those unidentified things are due to THE LEAST LIKELY cause(alien visitation). Just as some people thought they saw evidence of explosives on 911, those who claim UFOs are aliens are just as wrong. Some are just uninformed(and come to erronious conclusions), some are just lying(especially those claiming abduction), but there is NO valid evidence(that pesky little thing that CTers find none of) of alien visitation.
UNDERSTAND???
Grumpy
Does that 500,000 tonnes represent the entire mass or just the 5% or so available within the footprint area?
You state that the comminuted material will have a wide range from fine powders to larger pieces including some chunks. If most of it, by weight, is larger than fine powder, but more in the grains of sand or so size as I believe has been repeatedly state here, it is still essentially pulverized, no?
How do you get "pulverized" material to fall at 160 mph? Terminal velocity in the basic belly down/spread eagle skydiving position is about 120 mph. If such a great amount of the concrete is broken into small pieces at the instant the collapse wave passes, and 95% of it is outside the building, how can it possibly obtain such a speed?
Isn't a great deal of the "pulverized" material going to act more like the the concrete poured from the bag rather than like being dropped as an intact bag. If they were dropped/poured on you from a height of several feet, the latter could kill you, the former would just make a mess.
The floor pans underlying the concrete on each floor should act as a real drag on initial acceleration, at least until they have had time to reorient from their initial flat position to something more vertical. But, that could/should take at least a couple of seconds at best.
You state that the materials were "compacted". Pulverized, then compacted? Is that like pouring a glass of evaporated water which reliquifies for the pour but then re-evaporates? I just don't get how you can have the material in both states depending on how you want it to act, and I sure haven't been able to explain it to the guys at the coffee shop.
Also, I keep thinking of the "pulverized" concrete in terms of this thought experiment...though you can try it for real if you wish. Lie on the floor and have someone drop an 80 lb. sack of concrete on you from on top of a 10' ladder. Hurts I'll bet. Now, if you are still able to continue the experiment, have the same person open the 80 lb. sack of concrete and pour it on you from the same 10 height. OK, I see the problem. You should probably do the second part first.
If the collapse wave is turning a good portion of the concrete and contents of the buildings into small to fine pieces and particles, won't the air resistance on those smaller particles substantially reduce their rate of dissent?
I don't have any type of physics background, but I did spend enough years skydiving to have a good bit of first hand experience with how falling masses and air resistance interact.
So, to sum it up in fewer words for the coffee shop crowd: How can you bust it up and have 95% fall outside of the building and still have enough mass to keep busting it up all the way down? Especially since the greatest amount of structural material was contained in the lowest and totally undamaged parts of the buildings?
Thanks.
Speaking of backyard experiments, here's one I just did. I took a pound of concrete mix in a plastic bag and dropped it from a height of 5 ft. It took less than a second to hit the ground. I then poured a pound of concrete mix from a can from the same height. It took no more than a second to hit the ground. The poured mix landed in a one square foot area. Because of a slight breeze, some of the mix was carried away from my collection pad. After collecting the mix, I weighed it and found that I lost about 5% to the wind.
So from the results of my highly controlled scientific experiment, can we conclude that 95% of the pulverized concrete in the WTC collapses continued to move downward and contribute to the accumulating destructive mass?
QUOTE
sorry, but the rotted bathrooms are a very good analogy.
No, they are not. Apples and oranges, they are both fruits(collapses) but they are in no other way comparable, as anyone who UNDERSTOOD would KNOW.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| sorry, but the rotted bathrooms are a very good analogy. |
No, they are not. Apples and oranges, they are both fruits(collapses) but they are in no other way comparable, as anyone who UNDERSTOOD would KNOW.
curiously, grumpy, how can anyone 'know' so much as you claim to know about ufos? they're unidentified flying objects, you know. they show up on radar, film and video. mulitple eyewitnesses and, most interestingly, pilots, see them all the time. some times they are chased by military jets. official reports are written. what is the 'silly concept'?
The distances in this universe, with the lightspeed limit, precludes any visitation by aliens. The more you UNDERSTAND about the limits the physical laws put on moving matter(or information movement, for that matter) the more unlikely you KNOW it is. That people see things in the air that are not identified in no way means that those unidentified things are due to THE LEAST LIKELY cause(alien visitation). Just as some people thought they saw evidence of explosives on 911, those who claim UFOs are aliens are just as wrong. Some are just uninformed(and come to erronious conclusions), some are just lying(especially those claiming abduction), but there is NO valid evidence(that pesky little thing that CTers find none of) of alien visitation.
UNDERSTAND???
Grumpy
These questions have probably already been addressed somewhere in all the equations going back and forth around here. Hope someone doesn't mind trying to put it in layman's language so I have a chance of trying to explain it to other non-scientific types at the coffee shop.
I recall reading elsewhere in here that the notion that the towers collapsed into their own footprint is quite misleading. In reality something like 95% of their mass/material fell outside of the footprint area. OK then, does that mean only 5% of their mass was available for continuing the collapse below the impact zones?
Of that mass (5% or whatever amount the equations show it to be), a fair amount of it was in the approximately 1 acre of concrete on each floor. If that concrete was communitated (whatever that word is supposed to be...broken into small pieces ranging from chunks to very fine dust) at the moment the collapse wave passed each floor, then what's left to drive the continued destruction? The outer columns are being ejected outward like a banana peel and hurled considerable distances. The core columns are failing at their welds and must be dropping pretty much straight down to destroy the core columns beneath them. That seems to leave the lightweight trusses, and perhaps some rebar to do most of the damage. It can't be much of the buildings contents or occupants as those are pretty much shredded, too.
I keep having this image of someone trying to pour a glass of evaporated water.
Also, I keep thinking of the "pulverized" concrete in terms of this thought experiment...though you can try it for real if you wish. Lie on the floor and have someone drop an 80 lb. sack of concrete on you from on top of a 10' ladder. Hurts I'll bet. Now, if you are still able to continue the experiment, have the same person open the 80 lb. sack of concrete and pour it on you from the same 10 height. OK, I see the problem. You should probably do the second part first.
If the collapse wave is turning a good portion of the concrete and contents of the buildings into small to fine pieces and particles, won't the air resistance on those smaller particles substantially reduce their rate of dissent?
I don't have any type of physics background, but I did spend enough years skydiving to have a good bit of first hand experience with how falling masses and air resistance interact.
So, to sum it up in fewer words for the coffee shop crowd: How can you bust it up and have 95% fall outside of the building and still have enough mass to keep busting it up all the way down? Especially since the greatest amount of structural material was contained in the lowest and totally undamaged parts of the buildings?
Thanks.
I recall reading elsewhere in here that the notion that the towers collapsed into their own footprint is quite misleading. In reality something like 95% of their mass/material fell outside of the footprint area. OK then, does that mean only 5% of their mass was available for continuing the collapse below the impact zones?
Of that mass (5% or whatever amount the equations show it to be), a fair amount of it was in the approximately 1 acre of concrete on each floor. If that concrete was communitated (whatever that word is supposed to be...broken into small pieces ranging from chunks to very fine dust) at the moment the collapse wave passed each floor, then what's left to drive the continued destruction? The outer columns are being ejected outward like a banana peel and hurled considerable distances. The core columns are failing at their welds and must be dropping pretty much straight down to destroy the core columns beneath them. That seems to leave the lightweight trusses, and perhaps some rebar to do most of the damage. It can't be much of the buildings contents or occupants as those are pretty much shredded, too.
I keep having this image of someone trying to pour a glass of evaporated water.
Also, I keep thinking of the "pulverized" concrete in terms of this thought experiment...though you can try it for real if you wish. Lie on the floor and have someone drop an 80 lb. sack of concrete on you from on top of a 10' ladder. Hurts I'll bet. Now, if you are still able to continue the experiment, have the same person open the 80 lb. sack of concrete and pour it on you from the same 10 height. OK, I see the problem. You should probably do the second part first.
If the collapse wave is turning a good portion of the concrete and contents of the buildings into small to fine pieces and particles, won't the air resistance on those smaller particles substantially reduce their rate of dissent?
I don't have any type of physics background, but I did spend enough years skydiving to have a good bit of first hand experience with how falling masses and air resistance interact.
So, to sum it up in fewer words for the coffee shop crowd: How can you bust it up and have 95% fall outside of the building and still have enough mass to keep busting it up all the way down? Especially since the greatest amount of structural material was contained in the lowest and totally undamaged parts of the buildings?
Thanks.
4the3s, I also thought that 95% fell outside the footprint but there seems to be a book out called aftermath which shows that the end situation is a stack of rubble, I would like to see a scan from it. I've never seen it only the meteorite that the BBC also used as their proof of pancaking, it's not strange to find such a piece when the worlds biggest buildings collapse, but I'm looking for those 64m x 64m x 110 x thickness floor slabs...I've never seen it, if it exists the debunkers will really scan it in 10MB resolution but we are only left with dust and a meteorite.
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 25 2007, 07:25 PM)
... but I'm looking for those 64m x 64m x 110 x thickness floor slabs...I've never seen it, ...
I have, sort of. But only a few crushed trusses neatly on top of one another. There are at least two separate such visuals on the web. ScottS posted one near the beginning of the previous thread on this topic.
Actually, one does not expect to find large, square, intact bagels. The connections between the trusses failed and the collapses were not completely symmetrically one-dimensional so there are only these two visuals (so far). Other than the meteorite, thst is...
=============
forthetrees --- Back a few pages I posted about the Bazant & Verdure equation for einsteen. Those two posts, from day before yesterday, might help clarify some aspects for you.
=============
newton --- Those bathroom floors did not come to a complete stop. The fireman just thought that occurred when each jolting slow down happened. Do try to think through the physics...
I have, sort of. But only a few crushed trusses neatly on top of one another. There are at least two separate such visuals on the web. ScottS posted one near the beginning of the previous thread on this topic.
Actually, one does not expect to find large, square, intact bagels. The connections between the trusses failed and the collapses were not completely symmetrically one-dimensional so there are only these two visuals (so far). Other than the meteorite, thst is...
=============
forthetrees --- Back a few pages I posted about the Bazant & Verdure equation for einsteen. Those two posts, from day before yesterday, might help clarify some aspects for you.
=============
newton --- Those bathroom floors did not come to a complete stop. The fireman just thought that occurred when each jolting slow down happened. Do try to think through the physics...
QUOTE
So now I'll once again point out to you that about 500,000 tonnes of building were compacted and falling at about 50 m/s (that's over 160 mph) when it all hit the plaza concrete. That much energy suffices to produce comminuted pieces over a wide range of sizes. Including fine powders, although most of it, by weight, will be larger.
Does that 500,000 tonnes represent the entire mass or just the 5% or so available within the footprint area?
You state that the comminuted material will have a wide range from fine powders to larger pieces including some chunks. If most of it, by weight, is larger than fine powder, but more in the grains of sand or so size as I believe has been repeatedly state here, it is still essentially pulverized, no?
How do you get "pulverized" material to fall at 160 mph? Terminal velocity in the basic belly down/spread eagle skydiving position is about 120 mph. If such a great amount of the concrete is broken into small pieces at the instant the collapse wave passes, and 95% of it is outside the building, how can it possibly obtain such a speed?
Isn't a great deal of the "pulverized" material going to act more like the the concrete poured from the bag rather than like being dropped as an intact bag. If they were dropped/poured on you from a height of several feet, the latter could kill you, the former would just make a mess.
The floor pans underlying the concrete on each floor should act as a real drag on initial acceleration, at least until they have had time to reorient from their initial flat position to something more vertical. But, that could/should take at least a couple of seconds at best.
You state that the materials were "compacted". Pulverized, then compacted? Is that like pouring a glass of evaporated water which reliquifies for the pour but then re-evaporates? I just don't get how you can have the material in both states depending on how you want it to act, and I sure haven't been able to explain it to the guys at the coffee shop.
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 25 2007, 08:48 PM)
Does that 500,000 tonnes represent the entire mass?
Yes, essentially. I now realize I should have subtracted that portion due to the exterior wall sections being ejected. Maybe 5%?
The fine powders would tend to fly off in the substantial wind developed as the crushing front descended through the air space to impact the next floor. The heavier pieces would not, becoming more of the compacted crushing front. At each high-speed impact more of the concrete in the crushing front would be further comminuted. Finally the vast majority of the compacted materials start hitting the concrete floors in sub-basements and are further comminuted and compacted as these materials slow down.
Despite the great winds blowing the air out of each descending tower, the air resistance is completely negligible. See Greening's Energy Transfer paper hosted on the 911myths site.
Some floor pans stayed flat. But these were so thin, 22 guage steel I think, that many were ripped into shreds by the crushing front.
Maybe I didn't catch all your questions. If not, ask again.
Yes, essentially. I now realize I should have subtracted that portion due to the exterior wall sections being ejected. Maybe 5%?
The fine powders would tend to fly off in the substantial wind developed as the crushing front descended through the air space to impact the next floor. The heavier pieces would not, becoming more of the compacted crushing front. At each high-speed impact more of the concrete in the crushing front would be further comminuted. Finally the vast majority of the compacted materials start hitting the concrete floors in sub-basements and are further comminuted and compacted as these materials slow down.
Despite the great winds blowing the air out of each descending tower, the air resistance is completely negligible. See Greening's Energy Transfer paper hosted on the 911myths site.
Some floor pans stayed flat. But these were so thin, 22 guage steel I think, that many were ripped into shreds by the crushing front.
Maybe I didn't catch all your questions. If not, ask again.
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 25 2007, 06:54 PM)
Also, I keep thinking of the "pulverized" concrete in terms of this thought experiment...though you can try it for real if you wish. Lie on the floor and have someone drop an 80 lb. sack of concrete on you from on top of a 10' ladder. Hurts I'll bet. Now, if you are still able to continue the experiment, have the same person open the 80 lb. sack of concrete and pour it on you from the same 10 height. OK, I see the problem. You should probably do the second part first.
If the collapse wave is turning a good portion of the concrete and contents of the buildings into small to fine pieces and particles, won't the air resistance on those smaller particles substantially reduce their rate of dissent?
I don't have any type of physics background, but I did spend enough years skydiving to have a good bit of first hand experience with how falling masses and air resistance interact.
So, to sum it up in fewer words for the coffee shop crowd: How can you bust it up and have 95% fall outside of the building and still have enough mass to keep busting it up all the way down? Especially since the greatest amount of structural material was contained in the lowest and totally undamaged parts of the buildings?
Thanks.
Speaking of backyard experiments, here's one I just did. I took a pound of concrete mix in a plastic bag and dropped it from a height of 5 ft. It took less than a second to hit the ground. I then poured a pound of concrete mix from a can from the same height. It took no more than a second to hit the ground. The poured mix landed in a one square foot area. Because of a slight breeze, some of the mix was carried away from my collection pad. After collecting the mix, I weighed it and found that I lost about 5% to the wind.
So from the results of my highly controlled scientific experiment, can we conclude that 95% of the pulverized concrete in the WTC collapses continued to move downward and contribute to the accumulating destructive mass?
forthetrees
It is "troother" myth that 95% of the MASS of the towers fell outside of the footprint. 1.6 million tons of debris was removed from the subbasement levels of the towers(thus WITHIN the footprint), by far the majority of the MASS. This consisted of most of the floor contents and the floor trusses and concrete, funnelled there by the still intact lower frame members before they were pushed over(not ejected). That which is seen falling outside of the footprint is almost exclusively the outer frame columns(about 5% OF THE mass of the buildings).
To visualize the floor contents and their collapse take a cracker box with one end cut off, punch as many holes as you like(up to 50% hole/box ratio) in the sides. In a bowl, crumble one sleeve of crackers, a cup of salt and a cup of flour, mix well. Weigh the bowl and contents. In one motion, dump the contents of the bowl into the top of the cracker box. After the dust(flour) settles, pour the contents of the box back into the bowl and reweigh it. The fraction missing is the ejected mass, a lot of that mass will be flour, but most of the salt(sand sized rubble) and crackers(larger rubble) will be in the box.
To visualize why just pushing the outer frame cause it to reach such distances stack up about 30 childs blocks into a column. Push the top block until the whole column falls. Though not a perfect simulation the principles are the same.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Does that 500,000 tonnes represent the entire mass or just the 5% or so available within the footprint area?
It is "troother" myth that 95% of the MASS of the towers fell outside of the footprint. 1.6 million tons of debris was removed from the subbasement levels of the towers(thus WITHIN the footprint), by far the majority of the MASS. This consisted of most of the floor contents and the floor trusses and concrete, funnelled there by the still intact lower frame members before they were pushed over(not ejected). That which is seen falling outside of the footprint is almost exclusively the outer frame columns(about 5% OF THE mass of the buildings).
To visualize the floor contents and their collapse take a cracker box with one end cut off, punch as many holes as you like(up to 50% hole/box ratio) in the sides. In a bowl, crumble one sleeve of crackers, a cup of salt and a cup of flour, mix well. Weigh the bowl and contents. In one motion, dump the contents of the bowl into the top of the cracker box. After the dust(flour) settles, pour the contents of the box back into the bowl and reweigh it. The fraction missing is the ejected mass, a lot of that mass will be flour, but most of the salt(sand sized rubble) and crackers(larger rubble) will be in the box.
To visualize why just pushing the outer frame cause it to reach such distances stack up about 30 childs blocks into a column. Push the top block until the whole column falls. Though not a perfect simulation the principles are the same.
Grumpy
So, to continue the experiment and make it closer to real world conditions, try it from 100', 500', and 1,000'.
Yep, virtually no discernible air resistance in the first 5', but 1/2 of the contents of the building had to fall at least 500', the math for figuring out the remaining proportion of amount/distance is beyond my abilities. Drop your loose contents 500' or so and let us know, eh?
Yep, virtually no discernible air resistance in the first 5', but 1/2 of the contents of the building had to fall at least 500', the math for figuring out the remaining proportion of amount/distance is beyond my abilities. Drop your loose contents 500' or so and let us know, eh?
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 25 2007, 09:51 PM)
... but 1/2 of the contents of the building had to fall at least 500', ...
Well, yes, but the top block was largely intact for the majority of the collapse, at least for WTC 1.
For WTC 1, the top block weighed 36,414 tonnes, or thereabouts. Beneath that and shielding it from damage was the crushed portion. Using a stretch of 0.14, each two stories contributes one meter to the crushed portion. This consists of steel, concrete, drywall, office contents, etc., being continually recompacted as additional floors are added to it.
Moreover, this is going on inside the exterior walls which then provide some ability to keep the crushed materials within the footprint. At the same time, the crushed materials provide pressure on the exterior wall sections, finally shoving many of the sections out for considerable distance.
In any case, this crushed mass was somewhat more like a bag of cement than a pour of cement.
Well, yes, but the top block was largely intact for the majority of the collapse, at least for WTC 1.
For WTC 1, the top block weighed 36,414 tonnes, or thereabouts. Beneath that and shielding it from damage was the crushed portion. Using a stretch of 0.14, each two stories contributes one meter to the crushed portion. This consists of steel, concrete, drywall, office contents, etc., being continually recompacted as additional floors are added to it.
Moreover, this is going on inside the exterior walls which then provide some ability to keep the crushed materials within the footprint. At the same time, the crushed materials provide pressure on the exterior wall sections, finally shoving many of the sections out for considerable distance.
In any case, this crushed mass was somewhat more like a bag of cement than a pour of cement.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Apr 25 2007, 09:51 PM)
1.6 million tons of debris was removed ...
to the Fresh Kills dump. This represents the entire contents of the Bathtub, together with WTC 7, less the salvageable steel.
The towers themselves weighed about 500,000 tonnes apiece.
to the Fresh Kills dump. This represents the entire contents of the Bathtub, together with WTC 7, less the salvageable steel.
The towers themselves weighed about 500,000 tonnes apiece.
David,
I appreciate your hanging in there with me as I try to get an understanding of all this.
Grumpy (have you tried more fiber in your diet? you might find yourself being less grumpy) said:
Yet this is from what I understand to be a demolitions industry expert:
Yet this is from what I understand to be a demolitions industry expert:
http://www.jod911.com/WTC%20COLLAPSE%20STUDY%20BBlanchard%208-8-06.pdf
A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE COLLAPSE OF WTC TOWERS 1,2, & 7 FROM AN EXPLOSIVES AND CONVENTIONAL DEMOLITION INDUSTRY VIEWPOINT
By Brent Balnchard
August 8, 2006
c-2006 www.implosionworld.com
One primary difference between these two collapses and a typical building implosion was that the initial failures occurred very high up on the structures, which lead to an extended-duration "pancake" effect down to the ground. With the weight and mass of the upper sections forcing the floor trussess below rapidly downward, there was no way for outer perimeter walls to fall in, so they had to fall out. A review of all photographic images clearly show about 95% of falling debris being forced away from the footprint of the structure, creating a giant "mushroom" effect around its perimeter.
As we now know, significant amounts of heavy structural debris rained down for blocks around the site. Many of the closest WTC buildings were completely destroyed and other heavily damaged. Predictably, the north tower's collapse caused slightly more ancillary damage than the south tower, as its impact point was higher and thus a larger volume of debris was projected farther from its footprint. Video of the north tower collapse clearly shows a roughly 50-story tall section of the building shearing away intact and laying out towards the west, heavily damaging the American Express Building and others on the adjacent block. Aerial photos taken just after both collapses show massive volumes of debris that impacted WTC 7 (and other buildings to the north, the effects of which were directly responsible for the intense fires within that structure.
These facts indicate that a relatively small amount of structural support debris actually landed straight down with the towers' footprints, making this event notably dissimilar to a planned demolition event.
" A review of all photographic images clearly show about 95% of falling debris being forced away from the footprint of the structure,....a relatively small amount of structural support debris actually landed straight down with the towers' footprints, making this event notably dissimilar to a planned demolition event."
Can you guys see why guys like me can get confused about all this?
I appreciate your hanging in there with me as I try to get an understanding of all this.
Grumpy (have you tried more fiber in your diet? you might find yourself being less grumpy) said:
QUOTE
It is "troother" myth that 95% of the MASS of the towers fell outside of the footprint. 1.6 million tons of debris was removed from the subbasement levels of the towers(thus WITHIN the footprint), by far the majority of the MASS.
Yet this is from what I understand to be a demolitions industry expert:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| It is "troother" myth that 95% of the MASS of the towers fell outside of the footprint. 1.6 million tons of debris was removed from the subbasement levels of the towers(thus WITHIN the footprint), by far the majority of the MASS. |
Yet this is from what I understand to be a demolitions industry expert:
http://www.jod911.com/WTC%20COLLAPSE%20STUDY%20BBlanchard%208-8-06.pdf
A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE COLLAPSE OF WTC TOWERS 1,2, & 7 FROM AN EXPLOSIVES AND CONVENTIONAL DEMOLITION INDUSTRY VIEWPOINT
By Brent Balnchard
August 8, 2006
c-2006 www.implosionworld.com
One primary difference between these two collapses and a typical building implosion was that the initial failures occurred very high up on the structures, which lead to an extended-duration "pancake" effect down to the ground. With the weight and mass of the upper sections forcing the floor trussess below rapidly downward, there was no way for outer perimeter walls to fall in, so they had to fall out. A review of all photographic images clearly show about 95% of falling debris being forced away from the footprint of the structure, creating a giant "mushroom" effect around its perimeter.
As we now know, significant amounts of heavy structural debris rained down for blocks around the site. Many of the closest WTC buildings were completely destroyed and other heavily damaged. Predictably, the north tower's collapse caused slightly more ancillary damage than the south tower, as its impact point was higher and thus a larger volume of debris was projected farther from its footprint. Video of the north tower collapse clearly shows a roughly 50-story tall section of the building shearing away intact and laying out towards the west, heavily damaging the American Express Building and others on the adjacent block. Aerial photos taken just after both collapses show massive volumes of debris that impacted WTC 7 (and other buildings to the north, the effects of which were directly responsible for the intense fires within that structure.
These facts indicate that a relatively small amount of structural support debris actually landed straight down with the towers' footprints, making this event notably dissimilar to a planned demolition event.
" A review of all photographic images clearly show about 95% of falling debris being forced away from the footprint of the structure,....a relatively small amount of structural support debris actually landed straight down with the towers' footprints, making this event notably dissimilar to a planned demolition event."
Can you guys see why guys like me can get confused about all this?
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 25 2007, 09:51 PM)
So, to continue the experiment and make it closer to real world conditions, try it from 100', 500', and 1,000'.
Yep, virtually no discernible air resistance in the first 5', but 1/2 of the contents of the building had to fall at least 500', the math for figuring out the remaining proportion of amount/distance is beyond my abilities. Drop your loose contents 500' or so and let us know, eh?
What kind of airflow do you think the pulverized concrete would encounter within the confines of the collapsing towers? Most likely a lot of turbulence, but a lot of dust would be drawn down with the low pressure created by the falling debris. Most of the dust that was carried away from the towers, drifted away after being cycled through the relative area of the footprints.
Yep, virtually no discernible air resistance in the first 5', but 1/2 of the contents of the building had to fall at least 500', the math for figuring out the remaining proportion of amount/distance is beyond my abilities. Drop your loose contents 500' or so and let us know, eh?
What kind of airflow do you think the pulverized concrete would encounter within the confines of the collapsing towers? Most likely a lot of turbulence, but a lot of dust would be drawn down with the low pressure created by the falling debris. Most of the dust that was carried away from the towers, drifted away after being cycled through the relative area of the footprints.
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 25 2007, 10:33 PM)
" A review of all photographic images clearly show about 95% of falling debris being forced away from the footprint of the structure,....a relatively small amount of structural support debris actually landed straight down with the towers' footprints, making this event notably dissimilar to a planned demolition event."
Can you guys see why guys like me can get confused about all this?
Yes! Within or close to the so-called footprint, the debris filled all the sub-basement levels (five?) and rose to about the 7th floor (WTC 1) That is about 44 meters from bottom to top. At a stretch of 0.14, that is 88 stories of materials. That leaves about 22 stories of materials scattered elsewhere, i.e., 20%.
Crude and approximate.
Can you guys see why guys like me can get confused about all this?
Yes! Within or close to the so-called footprint, the debris filled all the sub-basement levels (five?) and rose to about the 7th floor (WTC 1) That is about 44 meters from bottom to top. At a stretch of 0.14, that is 88 stories of materials. That leaves about 22 stories of materials scattered elsewhere, i.e., 20%.
Crude and approximate.
David Benson
Nevertheless, the majority of the mass(floor diaphrams, concrete and contents) were removed from the subbasements themselves, a lot of it compressed into "Meteors" like the sample kept by NIST. This is mostly due to the funnel effect of the intact lower structure as the floors pancaked ahead of the VISIBLE collapse front which was mainly the outer frame members(a fraction of the total mass) and 95% of which DID fall outside of the footprint(as Brent Balnchard stated, forthetrees). Very little of the floor trusses, concrete and floor contents of those buildings was found outside the footprint, and of that that was, most was from the upper block of floors.
Grumpy
QUOTE
to the Fresh Kills dump. This represents the entire contents of the Bathtub, together with WTC 7, less the salvageable steel.
The towers themselves weighed about 500,000 tonnes apiece.
The towers themselves weighed about 500,000 tonnes apiece.
Nevertheless, the majority of the mass(floor diaphrams, concrete and contents) were removed from the subbasements themselves, a lot of it compressed into "Meteors" like the sample kept by NIST. This is mostly due to the funnel effect of the intact lower structure as the floors pancaked ahead of the VISIBLE collapse front which was mainly the outer frame members(a fraction of the total mass) and 95% of which DID fall outside of the footprint(as Brent Balnchard stated, forthetrees). Very little of the floor trusses, concrete and floor contents of those buildings was found outside the footprint, and of that that was, most was from the upper block of floors.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Apr 25 2007, 11:23 PM)
This is mostly due to the funnel effect of the intact lower structure as the floors pancaked ahead of the VISIBLE collapse front ...
While I agree with the essence of your post, I do not agree with the portion quoted above. The visible collapse front is the air being forced out of a story just in advance (i.e., below) the crushing front. This air is filled with fines and hence visible.
The visuals I have seen clearly indicate that the exterior wall sections are ejected somewhat later, I suppose by the lateral pressure of the growing crushing front.
So, to a very good approximation, the visible collapse front is the location of the internal crushing front.
While I agree with the essence of your post, I do not agree with the portion quoted above. The visible collapse front is the air being forced out of a story just in advance (i.e., below) the crushing front. This air is filled with fines and hence visible.
The visuals I have seen clearly indicate that the exterior wall sections are ejected somewhat later, I suppose by the lateral pressure of the growing crushing front.
So, to a very good approximation, the visible collapse front is the location of the internal crushing front.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Apr 25 2007, 11:08 PM)
Yes! Within or close to the so-called footprint, the debris filled all the sub-basement levels (five?) and rose to about the 7th floor (WTC 1) That is about 44 meters from bottom to top. At a stretch of 0.14, that is 88 stories of materials. That leaves about 22 stories of materials scattered elsewhere, i.e., 20%.
Crude and approximate.
David,
That statement doesn't appear to be consistent with the FEMA map of the debris pile distribution. There was a section of the core which jutted up perhaps that far, but I couldn't find any photos to indicate the pile within the footprint was anywhere near that high.

I found the image here:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/BsB092306/
Crude and approximate.
David,
That statement doesn't appear to be consistent with the FEMA map of the debris pile distribution. There was a section of the core which jutted up perhaps that far, but I couldn't find any photos to indicate the pile within the footprint was anywhere near that high.

I found the image here:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/BsB092306/
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 25 2007, 11:50 PM)
That statement doesn't appear to be consistent with the FEMA map of the debris pile distribution. There was a section of the core which jutted up perhaps that far, but I couldn't find any photos to indicate the pile within the footprint was anywhere near that high.
Better than the FEMA map is the map of the underground damage which reasonwhy posted some time back, maybe on the part 2 thread. It seems that a goodly portion of each tower went into the basements and spread out there.
Anyway, while approximate, estimating that 80% of each tower went into the basements levels and about 20% did not stay within the footprint, but impacted nearby, is reasonable. But if 70/30 makes you more comfortable, I don't have enough evidence to rule that out.
This has to do with the exact nature of the crush-up of the top blocks once the crushed mass (begins to) come to rest. The evidence strongly suggests that the top block of WTC 1 partially fell over to the south as it fell apart. The situation for the top block of WTC 2 is even more complex...
=================
Edited to add: The FEMA map is highly approximate, IMO. What it suggests is that the exterior wall columns and whole suctions were thrown considerable distances. Grumpy has several times posted a photo taken from directly over the entire site which shows the actual locations of these. It is messier than the FEMA map suggests.
Better than the FEMA map is the map of the underground damage which reasonwhy posted some time back, maybe on the part 2 thread. It seems that a goodly portion of each tower went into the basements and spread out there.
Anyway, while approximate, estimating that 80% of each tower went into the basements levels and about 20% did not stay within the footprint, but impacted nearby, is reasonable. But if 70/30 makes you more comfortable, I don't have enough evidence to rule that out.
This has to do with the exact nature of the crush-up of the top blocks once the crushed mass (begins to) come to rest. The evidence strongly suggests that the top block of WTC 1 partially fell over to the south as it fell apart. The situation for the top block of WTC 2 is even more complex...
=================
Edited to add: The FEMA map is highly approximate, IMO. What it suggests is that the exterior wall columns and whole suctions were thrown considerable distances. Grumpy has several times posted a photo taken from directly over the entire site which shows the actual locations of these. It is messier than the FEMA map suggests.
Grumpy --- Wow!
At full magnification on my machine, looking at the top center portion of the photo, it appears that the highest part of the debris pile for WTC 1 is about 6 stories above the ground level. Adding the six basement levels, I once again say that the maxium height of the entire debris pile is about 44 meters.
Thank you, Grumpy!
At full magnification on my machine, looking at the top center portion of the photo, it appears that the highest part of the debris pile for WTC 1 is about 6 stories above the ground level. Adding the six basement levels, I once again say that the maxium height of the entire debris pile is about 44 meters.
Thank you, Grumpy!
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 25 2007, 09:03 AM)
That’s nice Arthur. Can we now conclude that the republicans (including the rednecks and the creationists) are smarter than the democrats? I don’t know from which science report those bold letters come from but even if this is true it is meaningless.
To your first question, No.
I would think its somewhat obvious why more Democrats than Republicans believe this.
Bush holds the top spot in the Republican party, so its really not that surprising that not many people who think that the Bush admin was involved in pulling off 9/11 would STILL consider themselves Republicans.
But, of course, this issue creates no dissonance for Democrats, because in general most Democrats detest Bush anyway (though for MOST of them for other reasons).
So its not like the poll said MOST democrats believe this, just that of the respondents that gave a party affiliation, there would OBVIOUSLY be more Democrats than Republicans that would think the Republicans are lying about SOME ASPECT of 9/11.
So, while I AGREE that the party affiliation is in fact meaningless, I DO think that the fact that the MAJORITY of people who believed this had only a High School education is in fact VERY MEANINGFUL.
Arthur
I would think its somewhat obvious why more Democrats than Republicans believe this.
Bush holds the top spot in the Republican party, so its really not that surprising that not many people who think that the Bush admin was involved in pulling off 9/11 would STILL consider themselves Republicans.
But, of course, this issue creates no dissonance for Democrats, because in general most Democrats detest Bush anyway (though for MOST of them for other reasons).
So its not like the poll said MOST democrats believe this, just that of the respondents that gave a party affiliation, there would OBVIOUSLY be more Democrats than Republicans that would think the Republicans are lying about SOME ASPECT of 9/11.
So, while I AGREE that the party affiliation is in fact meaningless, I DO think that the fact that the MAJORITY of people who believed this had only a High School education is in fact VERY MEANINGFUL.
Arthur
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 25 2007, 07:25 PM)
I've never seen it, if it exists the debunkers will really scan it in 10MB resolution but we are only left with dust and a meteorite.
It's on Jones website. There's a sandwich of concrete slabs with parts of the rusted trusses in between. Jones claimed the concrete was slag from thermite and that the rusted truss metal was the remains of molten iron.
It's on Jones website. There's a sandwich of concrete slabs with parts of the rusted trusses in between. Jones claimed the concrete was slag from thermite and that the rusted truss metal was the remains of molten iron.
The lidar data shows the elevation of the rubble pile. I haven't dug up the raw data for the WTC. It's probably on their site somewhere. The pile was at least as high as the bowtie level for both towers. The 'lunar module' of WTC1 was higher than that.
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s781.htm
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s781.htm
Debris pile 9/13/2001
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/3892.jpg
Fecal pile 9/14/2001
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/3904.jpg
Debris pile 9/20/2001
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/3983.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/3892.jpg
Fecal pile 9/14/2001
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/3904.jpg
Debris pile 9/20/2001
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/3983.jpg
DBB,
Sorry for not directly answering your post. Assume a non-tilting model to make the discussion easier. If you have a couple of models some leading to a global collapse and others don’t then skipping the ones that don’t is of course a way to get rid of failing models, but a model that doesn’t lead to a global collapse after collapse initiation (whether that is ‘natural’ or triggered) could also be modified for example with an helping energy source (it’s not needed to explicitly know what that exactly is) that could easily explain the observed behavior. Rejecting non-collapsing gravity driven models (simply because we saw it happening) is a method that will never be able to explain if there is an extra energy source or not. Neu-Fonze came with his rocket fuel theory which is an attempt to explain the observed spherical particles, probably because heat as the result of friction couldn’t explain it.
Isn’t what Bazant does with the top block and crushed part in fact what Greening does with the first stage of collapse? If I understand it well their model (mechanically looking at it) is in fact the following: After initiation there is some crush-up and crush down, there is now a collapsing zone under the top block, a kind of avalanche of compacted floors that hammer through the building. If the top block follows this avalanche without contributing to the collapsing mass the avalanche itself is doing its job independently because it is not coupled with the top block. This seems plausible for me. Although if we go back to Greenings’s E1=0.6GJ and E_init=gh(N/110)M=2.4GJ we need at least sufficient compacted stories in the avalanche to start the process. But the avalanche only starts with two compacted detached floors which is not sufficient. For wtc1 then stories 95 and 96 compact together and have not sufficient energy to detach floor 94 and a few other stories are added until it has enough energy.
Grumpy,
Please explain 1.6 million tons is the most of the mass, do you mean the fraction 1.6/5.1 ?
I’m still wondering about that amount of ejected mass, is it really only the outer columns? If you observe the videos, especially the ones where the camera looks under the collapse front you see material that is ejected and it looks like it consist of those squibs (the same you see a couple of stories lower) whatever that is, those don’t look like ejected perimeter columns but something that comes from inside the building, it looks like those columns are ejected at a later stage. My theory is that the collapse of the top block is gravity driven but the resistance will be effectively very low because the top block perfectly follows the detonation zone and if the detonations are too slow then there might be some crush-up. How could you conclude something from that aerial photo, it looks like all mass is distributed uniformly. And those other photos, I see a pile of rubble as expected but it looks like a random mess and no stack of pancakes. 44 meters ? That would imply that the thickness of a floor is at least 0.4 meter, if you also take a basement into account it will be much more. And for the energy transfer formula’s you need to adjust them, by subtracting this from the 3.8 meters. What is the official floor thickness by the way ?
Sorry for not directly answering your post. Assume a non-tilting model to make the discussion easier. If you have a couple of models some leading to a global collapse and others don’t then skipping the ones that don’t is of course a way to get rid of failing models, but a model that doesn’t lead to a global collapse after collapse initiation (whether that is ‘natural’ or triggered) could also be modified for example with an helping energy source (it’s not needed to explicitly know what that exactly is) that could easily explain the observed behavior. Rejecting non-collapsing gravity driven models (simply because we saw it happening) is a method that will never be able to explain if there is an extra energy source or not. Neu-Fonze came with his rocket fuel theory which is an attempt to explain the observed spherical particles, probably because heat as the result of friction couldn’t explain it.
Isn’t what Bazant does with the top block and crushed part in fact what Greening does with the first stage of collapse? If I understand it well their model (mechanically looking at it) is in fact the following: After initiation there is some crush-up and crush down, there is now a collapsing zone under the top block, a kind of avalanche of compacted floors that hammer through the building. If the top block follows this avalanche without contributing to the collapsing mass the avalanche itself is doing its job independently because it is not coupled with the top block. This seems plausible for me. Although if we go back to Greenings’s E1=0.6GJ and E_init=gh(N/110)M=2.4GJ we need at least sufficient compacted stories in the avalanche to start the process. But the avalanche only starts with two compacted detached floors which is not sufficient. For wtc1 then stories 95 and 96 compact together and have not sufficient energy to detach floor 94 and a few other stories are added until it has enough energy.
Grumpy,
Please explain 1.6 million tons is the most of the mass, do you mean the fraction 1.6/5.1 ?
I’m still wondering about that amount of ejected mass, is it really only the outer columns? If you observe the videos, especially the ones where the camera looks under the collapse front you see material that is ejected and it looks like it consist of those squibs (the same you see a couple of stories lower) whatever that is, those don’t look like ejected perimeter columns but something that comes from inside the building, it looks like those columns are ejected at a later stage. My theory is that the collapse of the top block is gravity driven but the resistance will be effectively very low because the top block perfectly follows the detonation zone and if the detonations are too slow then there might be some crush-up. How could you conclude something from that aerial photo, it looks like all mass is distributed uniformly. And those other photos, I see a pile of rubble as expected but it looks like a random mess and no stack of pancakes. 44 meters ? That would imply that the thickness of a floor is at least 0.4 meter, if you also take a basement into account it will be much more. And for the energy transfer formula’s you need to adjust them, by subtracting this from the 3.8 meters. What is the official floor thickness by the way ?
WTC columns -> "matchsticks" proof of explosive failure of weld defects?
The ubiquitous squared off ends seen in pictures of WTC columns has always bothered me. Additionally, from
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/image...oto-cropped.jpg
we can see that columns segments are characteristically straight.
The following paper may give insight into why:
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/D...S.htm?E+mystore
Probabilistic Fracture Mechanics Evaluation of Local Brittle Zones in HSLA-80 Steel Weldments
Eiselstein LE, Harris DO, Scoonover TM, Rau CA
Abstract
The engineering significance of local brittle zones in multipass, HSLA-80 steel weldments that might be subjected to large strains (such as the straining that occurs during explosive bulge testing) was evaluated through the use of probabilistic fracture mechanics. The heat-affected zone of HSLA-80 was modeled as containing only two distinct types of material along the fusion line, local brittle zones, and the gaps between them. The local brittle zones have a lower toughness than gap material, and both have toughness properties that are lower than those of the base plate. The model calculated the failure probability of weldments as they are plastically strained to various levels by simulating the growth of preexisting crack-like weld defects that are distributed along the fusion line and within the weld metal. Failure was considered to occur if weld defects link up and grow through the entire plate thickness. The model incorporates the statistical variation of the toughness for the base metal, weld metal, local brittle zones, and gap materials to model the tearing resistance along the fracture path. The probabilistic fracture mechanics modeling of typical HSLA-80 weldments indicates that the distribution and toughness of local brittle zones and gaps have a small effect on the failure probability at large plastic strains typical of explosive bulge tests. The calculated failure probabilities agree with a limited number of actual explosive bulge tests. At the large strain levels considered, the simulations showed that the failure probabilities are nearly equal to the existence probability of welding defects.
(emphasis mine)
Assuming (and I am assuming, knowing next to nothing about these matters) that "welding defects" are confined to a narrow zone between the the columns that have been welded, a study of this paper may give a quantitative notion of just how explosive an explosion need be in order to obtain, say, 95% of failures to occur between column segments.
What would really be of interested is to compute the degree of explosiveness necessary to create a concrete dust of the particle size distribution that was observed, and then to plug this figure into whatever equations describe the probabalistic failure mechanics of the WTC column welds. Do we find that we get just the 'right amount' of weld failures to guarantee the ubiquitous squared off column failures, or don't we?
I think such a line of research will yield far more insight than research (or should I say blabbering?) about tack welds and missing bolts being instrumental in the construction of one of the largest buildings in the world....
The ubiquitous squared off ends seen in pictures of WTC columns has always bothered me. Additionally, from
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/image...oto-cropped.jpg
we can see that columns segments are characteristically straight.
The following paper may give insight into why:
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/D...S.htm?E+mystore
QUOTE
Probabilistic Fracture Mechanics Evaluation of Local Brittle Zones in HSLA-80 Steel Weldments
Eiselstein LE, Harris DO, Scoonover TM, Rau CA
Abstract
The engineering significance of local brittle zones in multipass, HSLA-80 steel weldments that might be subjected to large strains (such as the straining that occurs during explosive bulge testing) was evaluated through the use of probabilistic fracture mechanics. The heat-affected zone of HSLA-80 was modeled as containing only two distinct types of material along the fusion line, local brittle zones, and the gaps between them. The local brittle zones have a lower toughness than gap material, and both have toughness properties that are lower than those of the base plate. The model calculated the failure probability of weldments as they are plastically strained to various levels by simulating the growth of preexisting crack-like weld defects that are distributed along the fusion line and within the weld metal. Failure was considered to occur if weld defects link up and grow through the entire plate thickness. The model incorporates the statistical variation of the toughness for the base metal, weld metal, local brittle zones, and gap materials to model the tearing resistance along the fracture path. The probabilistic fracture mechanics modeling of typical HSLA-80 weldments indicates that the distribution and toughness of local brittle zones and gaps have a small effect on the failure probability at large plastic strains typical of explosive bulge tests. The calculated failure probabilities agree with a limited number of actual explosive bulge tests. At the large strain levels considered, the simulations showed that the failure probabilities are nearly equal to the existence probability of welding defects.
(emphasis mine)
Assuming (and I am assuming, knowing next to nothing about these matters) that "welding defects" are confined to a narrow zone between the the columns that have been welded, a study of this paper may give a quantitative notion of just how explosive an explosion need be in order to obtain, say, 95% of failures to occur between column segments.
What would really be of interested is to compute the degree of explosiveness necessary to create a concrete dust of the particle size distribution that was observed, and then to plug this figure into whatever equations describe the probabalistic failure mechanics of the WTC column welds. Do we find that we get just the 'right amount' of weld failures to guarantee the ubiquitous squared off column failures, or don't we?
I think such a line of research will yield far more insight than research (or should I say blabbering?) about tack welds and missing bolts being instrumental in the construction of one of the largest buildings in the world....
metamars
Why would the study of ANY nonexistent explosives event lead anywhere productive. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES/THERMITE ETC. ANYWHERE IN THE WTC COMPLEX, NONE. While no good scientist can express certainty based on that lack of evidence it falls on those claiming explosives to come up with valid evidence before their posibility can even be reasonably speculated. Such speculation sans valid evidence is simply a dead end road leading nowhere.
einsteen
Why would the study of ANY nonexistent explosives event lead anywhere productive. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES/THERMITE ETC. ANYWHERE IN THE WTC COMPLEX, NONE. While no good scientist can express certainty based on that lack of evidence it falls on those claiming explosives to come up with valid evidence before their posibility can even be reasonably speculated. Such speculation sans valid evidence is simply a dead end road leading nowhere.
einsteen
Please explain 1.6 million tons is the most of the mass, do you mean the fraction 1.6/5.1 ?
Please review your math, seems you have moved a decimal somewhere.
Evidence??? A single explosively cut beam, cutter charge channel, det cord remnant, timing or detonation device or explosives residue will do. So called "squibs" are more logically seen as the air forced from between floors than as explosives which leave no audio or physical evidence behind, don't you think???
Why do we continually have to deal with those who speculate about nonexistent explosive devices(for which there is NO evidence) on a physics forum where such speculation with no supporting evidence is not considered valid. There are plenty of forums in the kookasphere where your speculation will be accepted as fact, if Judy can still be believed then your stuff will be a big hit. But without supporting evidence you speculations are exactly on par with dud1's, and just as valid.
Immediately after 9/11 the FBI, BATF and other agencies(whose job it is to determine such things)rushed to the scene LOOKING FOR SIGNS OF EXPLOSIVES, they found NONE. The cleanup was contracted to many professionals in the demolition business who have the most experience in recognizing explosives effects, they found none.
Now either each and every one of these professionals(along with myriads of others) were in on selling out our country(and not one patriotic enough to blow the whistle) or THERE WERE NO EXPLOSIVES(a much more likely conclusion). The logic of this is inescappable, it is thus ILLOGICAL to continue positing explosives and going down that road will not lead to the truth.
So it is obvious that it really is this simple...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down, go boom.
Grumpy
QUOTE
What would really be of interested is to compute the degree of explosiveness necessary to create a concrete dust of the particle size distribution that was observed, and then to plug this figure into whatever equations describe the probabalistic failure mechanics of the WTC column welds. Do we find that we get just the 'right amount' of weld failures to guarantee the ubiquitous squared off column failures, or don't we?
I think such a line of research will yield far more insight than research (or should I say blabbering?) about tack welds and missing bolts being instrumental in the construction of one of the largest buildings in the world....
I think such a line of research will yield far more insight than research (or should I say blabbering?) about tack welds and missing bolts being instrumental in the construction of one of the largest buildings in the world....
Why would the study of ANY nonexistent explosives event lead anywhere productive. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES/THERMITE ETC. ANYWHERE IN THE WTC COMPLEX, NONE. While no good scientist can express certainty based on that lack of evidence it falls on those claiming explosives to come up with valid evidence before their posibility can even be reasonably speculated. Such speculation sans valid evidence is simply a dead end road leading nowhere.
einsteen
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| What would really be of interested is to compute the degree of explosiveness necessary to create a concrete dust of the particle size distribution that was observed, and then to plug this figure into whatever equations describe the probabalistic failure mechanics of the WTC column welds. Do we find that we get just the 'right amount' of weld failures to guarantee the ubiquitous squared off column failures, or don't we? I think such a line of research will yield far more insight than research (or should I say blabbering?) about tack welds and missing bolts being instrumental in the construction of one of the largest buildings in the world.... |
Why would the study of ANY nonexistent explosives event lead anywhere productive. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES/THERMITE ETC. ANYWHERE IN THE WTC COMPLEX, NONE. While no good scientist can express certainty based on that lack of evidence it falls on those claiming explosives to come up with valid evidence before their posibility can even be reasonably speculated. Such speculation sans valid evidence is simply a dead end road leading nowhere.
einsteen
Please explain 1.6 million tons is the most of the mass, do you mean the fraction 1.6/5.1 ?
Please review your math, seems you have moved a decimal somewhere.
QUOTE
but the resistance will be effectively very low because the top block perfectly follows the detonation zone
Evidence??? A single explosively cut beam, cutter charge channel, det cord remnant, timing or detonation device or explosives residue will do. So called "squibs" are more logically seen as the air forced from between floors than as explosives which leave no audio or physical evidence behind, don't you think???
Why do we continually have to deal with those who speculate about nonexistent explosive devices(for which there is NO evidence) on a physics forum where such speculation with no supporting evidence is not considered valid. There are plenty of forums in the kookasphere where your speculation will be accepted as fact, if Judy can still be believed then your stuff will be a big hit. But without supporting evidence you speculations are exactly on par with dud1's, and just as valid.
Immediately after 9/11 the FBI, BATF and other agencies(whose job it is to determine such things)rushed to the scene LOOKING FOR SIGNS OF EXPLOSIVES, they found NONE. The cleanup was contracted to many professionals in the demolition business who have the most experience in recognizing explosives effects, they found none.
Now either each and every one of these professionals(along with myriads of others) were in on selling out our country(and not one patriotic enough to blow the whistle) or THERE WERE NO EXPLOSIVES(a much more likely conclusion). The logic of this is inescappable, it is thus ILLOGICAL to continue positing explosives and going down that road will not lead to the truth.
So it is obvious that it really is this simple...
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down, go boom.
Grumpy
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 25 2007, 10:03 AM)
That’s nice Arthur. Can we now conclude that the republicans (including the rednecks and the creationists) are smarter than the democrats?
You insult rednecks by putting them on an equal level as that of any creationists, or CTer’s and “truthers” for that matter. And that sentiment has nothing to do with me being a skeptic, an atheist or a Virginian.
You insult rednecks by putting them on an equal level as that of any creationists, or CTer’s and “truthers” for that matter. And that sentiment has nothing to do with me being a skeptic, an atheist or a Virginian.
Forgive me buddy, this was just an impulsive post, don't take it to literal....
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 26 2007, 08:23 AM)
Assume a non-tilting model to make the discussion easier.
But that is exactly the problem with models which claim to show the collapse would have been arrested. So their is really no point in considering such.
Which is not what occurs in the Greening stage one of the B & V crush-down, both of which explain the same physics in essentially the same way.
The actual floors only add mass, since it took very little energy to disconnect trusses from supports. Since it is the upper exterior walls which impact trusses, at least in WTC 1, any amount of drop suffices to initiate the collapse since the trusses could not support even the dead weight of the upper exterior walls.
But that is exactly the problem with models which claim to show the collapse would have been arrested. So their is really no point in considering such.
Which is not what occurs in the Greening stage one of the B & V crush-down, both of which explain the same physics in essentially the same way.
The actual floors only add mass, since it took very little energy to disconnect trusses from supports. Since it is the upper exterior walls which impact trusses, at least in WTC 1, any amount of drop suffices to initiate the collapse since the trusses could not support even the dead weight of the upper exterior walls.
QUOTE (einsteen+Apr 26 2007, 07:24 PM)
44 meters
The stories were 12 feet high. That's 3.6576 meters.
The 44 meters is from the bottom of the lowest subbasement up to the height of the 'bow-tie' in the exterior wall trees. Poster shagster and I agree that is the top of the debris pile for WTC 1.
Assuming a stretch of 0.14, each story is compacted into about 0.5 meters, so about 80% of the tower was in this pile, much of it in the basement levels where it spread outside the footprint.
If you want to see a visual of some pancaked trusses, look back though posts by ScottS.
The stories were 12 feet high. That's 3.6576 meters.
The 44 meters is from the bottom of the lowest subbasement up to the height of the 'bow-tie' in the exterior wall trees. Poster shagster and I agree that is the top of the debris pile for WTC 1.
Assuming a stretch of 0.14, each story is compacted into about 0.5 meters, so about 80% of the tower was in this pile, much of it in the basement levels where it spread outside the footprint.
If you want to see a visual of some pancaked trusses, look back though posts by ScottS.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Apr 26 2007, 12:04 AM)
Better than the FEMA map is the map of the underground damage which reasonwhy posted some time back, maybe on the part 2 thread. It seems that a goodly portion of each tower went into the basements and spread out there.
Anyway, while approximate, estimating that 80% of each tower went into the basements levels and about 20% did not stay within the footprint, but impacted nearby, is reasonable. But if 70/30 makes you more comfortable, I don't have enough evidence to rule that out.
This has to do with the exact nature of the crush-up of the top blocks once the crushed mass (begins to) come to rest. The evidence strongly suggests that the top block of WTC 1 partially fell over to the south as it fell apart. The situation for the top block of WTC 2 is even more complex...
=================
Edited to add: The FEMA map is highly approximate, IMO. What it suggests is that the exterior wall columns and whole suctions were thrown considerable distances. Grumpy has several times posted a photo taken from directly over the entire site which shows the actual locations of these. It is messier than the FEMA map suggests.
Please excuse me if this guy's work concerning Greening's model is already well plowed ground around here. I found it late yesterday afternoon while searching for some information on the distribution of the debris piles and posted a picture from it. I didn't have time to read through it until just a few minutes ago. Imagine my surprise when I saw he used the pretty much the same example I came up with for what he calls the "dissociatiated materials" in the collapse mass.
I've put a link at the bottom to a picture of what is purported to be the remains of the core in wtc 2 which stood briefly after the initial collapse. As with the much noted "spire" in wtc 1, all the material in these formations could not have contributed to the collapse as they were standing (if only briefly) after the collapse wave passed....BUT all of their material/mass would be real close to dead center in the debris pile. So, wouldn't you have to subtract their mass from the destructive material driving the collapse as well as subtract it from the material in the heart of the debris piles?
Anyway, fwiw/fyi:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/BsB092306/
Greening assumes all steel, concrete, aluminum, etc., falls straight down with falling mass only increasing.
Destroyed floors did not re-combine to form a single, focused mass again, as suggested by Greening’s calculations, but broke up and were mostly ejected during the collapses, and thus contributed a small fraction of the total mass available to the continuing collapse, again, easily equating to 90% of the total mass being ejected throughout the collapses as shown by the heavy debris spread area alone in the FEMA diagram, and Ground Zero photos showing a clear lack of significant debris piles in the footprints of both buildings (remembering that most additional mass remaining within the footprints can rather safely be attributed to vertical core collapses after the perimeter and truss collapses, and not any type of pancake mechanism).
However, the mass that did continue downwards within either building, and could have contributed some theoretical “driving mass” to its collapse, would have been dissociated (disconnected steel members, destroyed concrete floor slabs; not a single, solid mass). This is important to remember, as dissociated material is easier to deflect than a single, focused force. As an example of this, would you rather have fifty pounds of gravel dumped onto your head from a height of 10 feet, or a single, fifty-pound rock dropped from the same height? A fifty-pound log, or fifty pounds of large woodchips? A fifty-pound steel beam, or fifty-pounds of nuts and bolts?
Intuitively, one would likely opt for the dissociated material always, and for a good reason: broken-up material is not going to exert as much energy upon a single point upon an impact, because the smaller pieces are less focused and more easily deflected; their energy is not focused solely downward upon a single point, but upon multiple points in multiple directions. If a falling solid object impacts something, though the great majority of the object may not actually make contact, the rest of its mass will nonetheless transfer energy efficiently. This is the same principle that allows a hammer to deliver much more impact force than a thin cylinder of the same diameter, though only the flat face of the either may actually make contact. With dissociated material, even such as separated steel beams and pulverized concrete, this is cannot be the case, and the material would simply be deflected rather than delivering the amount of energy that would be available if the material made up only a single solid mass.
Greening’s calculations assume only single masses falling, and never dissociated materials, let alone dissociated materials that are mostly falling over the sides of the collapsing buildings and are thus providing absolutely no mass to the alleged pancake collapses. These assumptions are not only unrealistic, but they are also extremely generous to pancake collapse theory, whereas a rigorous proof of even the possibility of such a theory should allow for the very realistic probabilities of less-than-ideal circumstances. Instead, Greening makes assumptions that prove his model to be impossibly generous to the theory that he is attempting to defend.
Greening assumes that each floor weighed the same in his calculations (he simply divides the building weights by the number of floors), the first floors to drop would have had equal or less structural mass than the floors onto which they dropped. Mechanical floors were an exception, since the mechanical floors (the windowless bands on the Towers in roughly intervals of thirds: 41st and 42nd floors, and 75th and 76th floors) had reinforced trusses, with I-beams spanning between the perimeter and core columns, and apparently encased in concrete. Floors 1 through 9 seem to also have been reinforced.[9]
Therefore, a progressive collapse would meet increasing opposition from one floor to the next, as the core columns thickened, and upon reaching the mechanical floors and lowest floors the Towers. This would indicate that the collapses would require more and more energy to continue without losing significant velocity, but instead, we observed little to no collapse velocity loss from initiation to completion with either Tower, despite thickening columns, dissociated falling material, and most of the total mass being ejected outwards from initiation to completion, and not falling straight down into the footprints.
This collapse behavior would seem more than a little counter-intuitive without considering additional sources of energy within the Towers, and yet it is an issue that has never been addressed in any form by any investigative releases relating to the Twin Tower collapses.
There simply could not have been a linear progression in terms of mass, momentum, etc., from each floor to the next, as individuals like Dr. Greening have assumed. At least 80%, (and probably closer to 90%) of the masses of either building were moved out of the way of the collapses themselves, during the collapses
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2.core.tall.jpg image of wtc 2 core standing after collapse
Anyway, while approximate, estimating that 80% of each tower went into the basements levels and about 20% did not stay within the footprint, but impacted nearby, is reasonable. But if 70/30 makes you more comfortable, I don't have enough evidence to rule that out.
This has to do with the exact nature of the crush-up of the top blocks once the crushed mass (begins to) come to rest. The evidence strongly suggests that the top block of WTC 1 partially fell over to the south as it fell apart. The situation for the top block of WTC 2 is even more complex...
=================
Edited to add: The FEMA map is highly approximate, IMO. What it suggests is that the exterior wall columns and whole suctions were thrown considerable distances. Grumpy has several times posted a photo taken from directly over the entire site which shows the actual locations of these. It is messier than the FEMA map suggests.
Please excuse me if this guy's work concerning Greening's model is already well plowed ground around here. I found it late yesterday afternoon while searching for some information on the distribution of the debris piles and posted a picture from it. I didn't have time to read through it until just a few minutes ago. Imagine my surprise when I saw he used the pretty much the same example I came up with for what he calls the "dissociatiated materials" in the collapse mass.
I've put a link at the bottom to a picture of what is purported to be the remains of the core in wtc 2 which stood briefly after the initial collapse. As with the much noted "spire" in wtc 1, all the material in these formations could not have contributed to the collapse as they were standing (if only briefly) after the collapse wave passed....BUT all of their material/mass would be real close to dead center in the debris pile. So, wouldn't you have to subtract their mass from the destructive material driving the collapse as well as subtract it from the material in the heart of the debris piles?
Anyway, fwiw/fyi:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/BsB092306/
Greening assumes all steel, concrete, aluminum, etc., falls straight down with falling mass only increasing.
Destroyed floors did not re-combine to form a single, focused mass again, as suggested by Greening’s calculations, but broke up and were mostly ejected during the collapses, and thus contributed a small fraction of the total mass available to the continuing collapse, again, easily equating to 90% of the total mass being ejected throughout the collapses as shown by the heavy debris spread area alone in the FEMA diagram, and Ground Zero photos showing a clear lack of significant debris piles in the footprints of both buildings (remembering that most additional mass remaining within the footprints can rather safely be attributed to vertical core collapses after the perimeter and truss collapses, and not any type of pancake mechanism).
However, the mass that did continue downwards within either building, and could have contributed some theoretical “driving mass” to its collapse, would have been dissociated (disconnected steel members, destroyed concrete floor slabs; not a single, solid mass). This is important to remember, as dissociated material is easier to deflect than a single, focused force. As an example of this, would you rather have fifty pounds of gravel dumped onto your head from a height of 10 feet, or a single, fifty-pound rock dropped from the same height? A fifty-pound log, or fifty pounds of large woodchips? A fifty-pound steel beam, or fifty-pounds of nuts and bolts?
Intuitively, one would likely opt for the dissociated material always, and for a good reason: broken-up material is not going to exert as much energy upon a single point upon an impact, because the smaller pieces are less focused and more easily deflected; their energy is not focused solely downward upon a single point, but upon multiple points in multiple directions. If a falling solid object impacts something, though the great majority of the object may not actually make contact, the rest of its mass will nonetheless transfer energy efficiently. This is the same principle that allows a hammer to deliver much more impact force than a thin cylinder of the same diameter, though only the flat face of the either may actually make contact. With dissociated material, even such as separated steel beams and pulverized concrete, this is cannot be the case, and the material would simply be deflected rather than delivering the amount of energy that would be available if the material made up only a single solid mass.
Greening’s calculations assume only single masses falling, and never dissociated materials, let alone dissociated materials that are mostly falling over the sides of the collapsing buildings and are thus providing absolutely no mass to the alleged pancake collapses. These assumptions are not only unrealistic, but they are also extremely generous to pancake collapse theory, whereas a rigorous proof of even the possibility of such a theory should allow for the very realistic probabilities of less-than-ideal circumstances. Instead, Greening makes assumptions that prove his model to be impossibly generous to the theory that he is attempting to defend.
Greening assumes that each floor weighed the same in his calculations (he simply divides the building weights by the number of floors), the first floors to drop would have had equal or less structural mass than the floors onto which they dropped. Mechanical floors were an exception, since the mechanical floors (the windowless bands on the Towers in roughly intervals of thirds: 41st and 42nd floors, and 75th and 76th floors) had reinforced trusses, with I-beams spanning between the perimeter and core columns, and apparently encased in concrete. Floors 1 through 9 seem to also have been reinforced.[9]
Therefore, a progressive collapse would meet increasing opposition from one floor to the next, as the core columns thickened, and upon reaching the mechanical floors and lowest floors the Towers. This would indicate that the collapses would require more and more energy to continue without losing significant velocity, but instead, we observed little to no collapse velocity loss from initiation to completion with either Tower, despite thickening columns, dissociated falling material, and most of the total mass being ejected outwards from initiation to completion, and not falling straight down into the footprints.
This collapse behavior would seem more than a little counter-intuitive without considering additional sources of energy within the Towers, and yet it is an issue that has never been addressed in any form by any investigative releases relating to the Twin Tower collapses.
There simply could not have been a linear progression in terms of mass, momentum, etc., from each floor to the next, as individuals like Dr. Greening have assumed. At least 80%, (and probably closer to 90%) of the masses of either building were moved out of the way of the collapses themselves, during the collapses
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2.core.tall.jpg image of wtc 2 core standing after collapse
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 26 2007, 09:23 PM)
this guy's work concerning Greening's model is already well plowed ground around here.
Yes, it is. Following Greening, poster shagster has done considerable work regarding mass loss via ejection, increasing E1 downwards, etc., in order to obtain his (shagster's) estimates of the total collapse times. The basic style of the model remains (approximately) correct.
The claim of substantial mass loss does not agree with the actual location of debris in the basement levels. What did occur is that almost all of the exterior walls were ejected outside the footprint. What little portion of other materials, on the surface of the debris pile, probably mostly ended up there during the high speed crush-up of the top block.
The crushed block, made of diverse materials, was repeatedly hammered tighter and tighter from the repeated blows. Looking at visuals taken during the excavation of the basement levels shows that these materials were tightly packed.
Yes, it is. Following Greening, poster shagster has done considerable work regarding mass loss via ejection, increasing E1 downwards, etc., in order to obtain his (shagster's) estimates of the total collapse times. The basic style of the model remains (approximately) correct.
The claim of substantial mass loss does not agree with the actual location of debris in the basement levels. What did occur is that almost all of the exterior walls were ejected outside the footprint. What little portion of other materials, on the surface of the debris pile, probably mostly ended up there during the high speed crush-up of the top block.
The crushed block, made of diverse materials, was repeatedly hammered tighter and tighter from the repeated blows. Looking at visuals taken during the excavation of the basement levels shows that these materials were tightly packed.
forthetrees
To the contrary, the floor debris was funneled and contained from escaping by the still intact outer frame of the intact bottom portion of the building. At least 80% of that mass was removed from the subbasements(after the collapses). That material which can be seen falling outside the footprint is almost exclusively outer frame members and represents only a portion of the falling mass. MOST OF THE MASS WAS NOT EJECTED BUT FELL STRAIGHT DOWN THROUGH THE INTACT LOWER STRUCTURE INTO THE BASEMENT, stripping floors as it went.
To the contrary, the floor debris was funneled and contained from escaping by the still intact outer frame of the intact bottom portion of the building. At least 80% of that mass was removed from the subbasements(after the collapses). That material which can be seen falling outside the footprint is almost exclusively outer frame members and represents only a portion of the falling mass. MOST OF THE MASS WAS NOT EJECTED BUT FELL STRAIGHT DOWN THROUGH THE INTACT LOWER STRUCTURE INTO THE BASEMENT, stripping floors as it went.
Ground Zero photos showing a clear lack of significant debris piles in the footprints of both buildings
As has been pointed out ad infinitum, the debris piles start ~100 feet below mean ground level so the pile is mostly below ground.
There is no significant difference in energy transfer between a single intact mass and a sack of sand of equivalent weight and speed. Google shotgun.
There is no significant difference in energy transfer between a single intact mass and a sack of sand of equivalent weight and speed. Google shotgun.
Therefore, a progressive collapse would meet increasing opposition from one floor to the next, as the core columns thickened, and upon reaching the mechanical floors and lowest floors the Towers. This would indicate that the collapses would require more and more energy to continue without losing significant velocity, but instead, we observed little to no collapse velocity loss from initiation to completion with either Tower, despite thickening columns, dissociated falling material, and most of the total mass being ejected outwards from initiation to completion, and not falling straight down into the footprints.
And energy goes up as the square of the velocity, so the faster the rubble fell the more excess energy it would have. And since ALL the floor connections were the same(excluding mech floors) the increased strength of core beams and exterior frames is irrelivent since the energy a floor could absorb before failure was determined by the strength of the floor connections(identical from top to bottom), not the strength of what the floor was attached to. Increased energy due to greater speed vs. the same energy needed to detach floor supports=continued acceleration=greater speed=more energy vs same energy needed to strip floor connections=continued acceleration=.......
Your errors
1) That a falling mass has different energy levels if it is made up of smaller pieces, it doesn't
2) That large portions of the falling mass was ejected, it was not, being kept from being ejected by the still intact lower section, very little of the floor contents went anywhere but into the basement. This represents(by far) the majority of the mass of the buildings(70-80% as determined by the tonnage of rubble removed and from where)
3) That energy levels either dropped or remained the same as the collapse continued, it didn't, it increased exponentially as the speed of fall increased.
4) That the building provided increased resistance because the frame members became stronger, it didn't, the resistance was determined SOLELY by the strength of the floor connections, which were exactly the same on every floor.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Destroyed floors did not re-combine to form a single, focused mass again, as suggested by Greening’s calculations, but broke up and were mostly ejected during the collapses, and thus contributed a small fraction of the total mass available to the continuing collapse,
To the contrary, the floor debris was funneled and contained from escaping by the still intact outer frame of the intact bottom portion of the building. At least 80% of that mass was removed from the subbasements(after the collapses). That material which can be seen falling outside the footprint is almost exclusively outer frame members and represents only a portion of the falling mass. MOST OF THE MASS WAS NOT EJECTED BUT FELL STRAIGHT DOWN THROUGH THE INTACT LOWER STRUCTURE INTO THE BASEMENT, stripping floors as it went.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Destroyed floors did not re-combine to form a single, focused mass again, as suggested by Greening’s calculations, but broke up and were mostly ejected during the collapses, and thus contributed a small fraction of the total mass available to the continuing collapse, |
To the contrary, the floor debris was funneled and contained from escaping by the still intact outer frame of the intact bottom portion of the building. At least 80% of that mass was removed from the subbasements(after the collapses). That material which can be seen falling outside the footprint is almost exclusively outer frame members and represents only a portion of the falling mass. MOST OF THE MASS WAS NOT EJECTED BUT FELL STRAIGHT DOWN THROUGH THE INTACT LOWER STRUCTURE INTO THE BASEMENT, stripping floors as it went.
Ground Zero photos showing a clear lack of significant debris piles in the footprints of both buildings
As has been pointed out ad infinitum, the debris piles start ~100 feet below mean ground level so the pile is mostly below ground.
QUOTE
However, the mass that did continue downwards within either building, and could have contributed some theoretical “driving mass” to its collapse, would have been dissociated (disconnected steel members, destroyed concrete floor slabs; not a single, solid mass). This is important to remember, as dissociated material is easier to deflect than a single, focused force. As an example of this, would you rather have fifty pounds of gravel dumped onto your head from a height of 10 feet, or a single, fifty-pound rock dropped from the same height? A fifty-pound log, or fifty pounds of large woodchips? A fifty-pound steel beam, or fifty-pounds of nuts and bolts?
There is no significant difference in energy transfer between a single intact mass and a sack of sand of equivalent weight and speed. Google shotgun.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| However, the mass that did continue downwards within either building, and could have contributed some theoretical “driving mass” to its collapse, would have been dissociated (disconnected steel members, destroyed concrete floor slabs; not a single, solid mass). This is important to remember, as dissociated material is easier to deflect than a single, focused force. As an example of this, would you rather have fifty pounds of gravel dumped onto your head from a height of 10 feet, or a single, fifty-pound rock dropped from the same height? A fifty-pound log, or fifty pounds of large woodchips? A fifty-pound steel beam, or fifty-pounds of nuts and bolts? |
There is no significant difference in energy transfer between a single intact mass and a sack of sand of equivalent weight and speed. Google shotgun.
Therefore, a progressive collapse would meet increasing opposition from one floor to the next, as the core columns thickened, and upon reaching the mechanical floors and lowest floors the Towers. This would indicate that the collapses would require more and more energy to continue without losing significant velocity, but instead, we observed little to no collapse velocity loss from initiation to completion with either Tower, despite thickening columns, dissociated falling material, and most of the total mass being ejected outwards from initiation to completion, and not falling straight down into the footprints.
And energy goes up as the square of the velocity, so the faster the rubble fell the more excess energy it would have. And since ALL the floor connections were the same(excluding mech floors) the increased strength of core beams and exterior frames is irrelivent since the energy a floor could absorb before failure was determined by the strength of the floor connections(identical from top to bottom), not the strength of what the floor was attached to. Increased energy due to greater speed vs. the same energy needed to detach floor supports=continued acceleration=greater speed=more energy vs same energy needed to strip floor connections=continued acceleration=.......
Your errors
1) That a falling mass has different energy levels if it is made up of smaller pieces, it doesn't
2) That large portions of the falling mass was ejected, it was not, being kept from being ejected by the still intact lower section, very little of the floor contents went anywhere but into the basement. This represents(by far) the majority of the mass of the buildings(70-80% as determined by the tonnage of rubble removed and from where)
3) That energy levels either dropped or remained the same as the collapse continued, it didn't, it increased exponentially as the speed of fall increased.
4) That the building provided increased resistance because the frame members became stronger, it didn't, the resistance was determined SOLELY by the strength of the floor connections, which were exactly the same on every floor.
Grumpy
Thanks for the responses. Technically not my errors as all that material was from the link above it. Guess I should have put it all in quotes.
So you guys are saying the demolition expert (Blanchard?) is wrong when he uses the "95% of mass fell outside of footprint" number as evidence that it couldn't have been a CD? Doesn't what you just explained to me mean that he's wrong and therefore it could have been a CD if you just look at the debris piles...at least from his line of reasoning?
If I'm getting this right, he says, "Can't be a CD because the debris is too widely distributed." You say, "Debris is primarily focused within the footprint, so there's plenty of mass/energy available to drive the collapse front."
I also remain confused about the time and location of the "pulverization" event. My impression is that it takes place continuously during the collapse where and as the moment of the collapse front passes. David, are you saying that most of it didn't happen until very late when everything started hitting the ground and the "crush up" forces came into play?
So you guys are saying the demolition expert (Blanchard?) is wrong when he uses the "95% of mass fell outside of footprint" number as evidence that it couldn't have been a CD? Doesn't what you just explained to me mean that he's wrong and therefore it could have been a CD if you just look at the debris piles...at least from his line of reasoning?
If I'm getting this right, he says, "Can't be a CD because the debris is too widely distributed." You say, "Debris is primarily focused within the footprint, so there's plenty of mass/energy available to drive the collapse front."
I also remain confused about the time and location of the "pulverization" event. My impression is that it takes place continuously during the collapse where and as the moment of the collapse front passes. David, are you saying that most of it didn't happen until very late when everything started hitting the ground and the "crush up" forces came into play?
QUOTE (forthetrees+Apr 26 2007, 11:14 PM)
I also remain confused about the time and location of the "pulverization" event. My impression is that it takes place continuously during the collapse where and as the moment of the collapse front passes. David, are you saying that most of it didn't happen until very late when everything started hitting the ground and the "crush up" forces came into play?
Blanchard appears to be wrong. Only the exterior walls fell outside the footprint before crush-up.
Some concrete was comminuted during crush-down. However, the majority of comminution, especially into very fine particles, happened when the crushed mass came to a sudden stop with the bottom of the crushed mass in the lowest sub-basement. Effectively, the crushed mass went from about 50 m/s (about 110 mph) to 0 m/s in a split second, further compacting the materials. Some of this tremendous amount of energy went into producing the dust cloud that one can see spreading across the ground of Lower Manhattan. Comparing the sizes of the dust clouds produced higher up with the size of the ground covering dust cloud ought to be convincing.
However, in a well-done CD, essentially nothing but dust is outside the building's footprint.
Blanchard appears to be wrong. Only the exterior walls fell outside the footprint before crush-up.
Some concrete was comminuted during crush-down. However, the majority of comminution, especially into very fine particles, happened when the crushed mass came to a sudden stop with the bottom of the crushed mass in the lowest sub-basement. Effectively, the crushed mass went from about 50 m/s (about 110 mph) to 0 m/s in a split second, further compacting the materials. Some of this tremendous amount of energy went into producing the dust cloud that one can see spreading across the ground of Lower Manhattan. Comparing the sizes of the dust clouds produced higher up with the size of the ground covering dust cloud ought to be convincing.
However, in a well-done CD, essentially nothing but dust is outside the building's footprint.
forthetrees
Blanchard is correct when he states that 95% of the VISIBLE collapse was outside the footprint, this is what I understood him as saying(he was talking about the videos, after all). But the debris being funneled through the intact bottom structure was, for the most part, not visible(the "squibs" were the air being ejected from this process), it was only during cleanup that the extent of the mass going into the basements was realized. Again, the debris we all saw falling outside the footprint was almost exclusively the pieces of the outer frame, the floors were already well on their way into the basement.
Grumpy
Blanchard is correct when he states that 95% of the VISIBLE collapse was outside the footprint, this is what I understood him as saying(he was talking about the videos, after all). But the debris being funneled through the intact bottom structure was, for the most part, not visible(the "squibs" were the air being ejected from this process), it was only during cleanup that the extent of the mass going into the basements was realized. Again, the debris we all saw falling outside the footprint was almost exclusively the pieces of the outer frame, the floors were already well on their way into the basement.
Grumpy
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