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eigenvalue
Abstract from Cherepanov's paper:

QUOTE
The generally-accepted explanation of the collapse of the World Trade Center towers on September 11, 2001 is based on the speculative “theory” of progressive buckling of bearing columns at the speed of free fall triggered by creep buckling of the columns of the floor subject to the conflagration from the spilled fuel, and by dynamic impact of the upper structure. In the present paper it is shown that this official “theory” is wrong because it is built on false assumptions and incorrect calculations. The “theory” cannot explain the free fall, explosion sound, and pulverization of the buildings as well as other facts of this event. The simultaneous collapse of the neighboring 47-story tower directly contradicts to the “theory”. It is shown that, consistent with all known facts of the matter, the scenario of all collapses was this: (i) heating of bearing columns in the “hot” spot caused high compressive thermal stresses in these columns, (ii) these stresses combined with internal stresses triggered a fracture wave, and (iii) the fracture wave disintegrated the entire building by invisible cracks for less than 0.1 s producing the sound of explosion and providing the conditions necessary for free fall of steel fragments and dust clouds of tiny fragments of glass, marble and concrete. The theory of fracture waves, see Appendix 1, supports this scenario. The official “ theory” is placed in Appendix 2.
David B. Benson
Cherepanov's theory is not in accord with measurements. For the first few seconds

WTC 1 fell due to acceleration of about (2/3)g
WTC 2 fell due to acceleration of about (3/4)g
NEU-FONZE
I've written to Cherepanov and to Bazant asking questions about the WTC collapse.

Bazant replied, Cherepanov did not.....

NF
FactCheck
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Mar 7 2007, 08:27 PM)
I've written to Cherepanov and to Bazant asking questions about the WTC collapse.

Bazant replied, Cherepanov did not.....

NF

I believe this was Bazant's reply to him...

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/b...zZhouWTC-06.pdf
Chainsaw,
Has anyone here ever tried to smelt iron ore into crude iron using diesel fuel?
Well it works not only can you melt iron with diesel you can smelt iron ore into iron with diesel too.

It is however quite crude iron as some of the ore is still combined in it.

User posted image

shagster
Bazant and Cherepanov have a rhubarb going on between them. Bazant initially referred to Cherepanov's theory as "fracture wave" and now Cherepanov has used the term "theory" 42 times in his paper to retaliate.

BZ's model assumes all the columns stay concentric through the front, while Cherepanov thinks the entire tower fractured into small pieces in a split second. Neither one has addressed the issue where the upper block shifts about 14 inches and all the columns disconnect from each other through the front.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 8 2007, 01:00 AM)
... the upper block shifts about 14 inches and all the columns disconnect from each other through the front.

Which tower? Also, could you explain more fully?

Thank you. smile.gif
shagster
I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Bavarian glass teardrops used by Prince Rupert of Bavaria. Cherenapov mentioned it in his paper, although he inadvertantly refers to them as 'Batavian' tears.

It's a droplet of glass that is cooled very quickly from a melt in a way that leaves a large residual elastic strain energy in the glass. There is a thin tail on the end of the teardrop shaped piece that can be cracked by hand. When the tail is snapped, a crack is initiated and the teardrop sometimes explodes into many pieces.

I don't think that happened with the towers. There is some relevance in relation to the concrete slabs being fractured, but that was due to the energy of the impacting mass which imparted elastic strain energy into the concrete, not a previously stored elastic strain energy in the concrete. The slab impacts also account for the explosive noises. There was stored elastic strain energy in the columns due to the weight of the building but that isn't enough to fracture ductile metal columns into many small pieces, although it might have some relevance with respect to fracturing of floor connections and column splices which had little energy absorbing ability. It's possible that some of those connections failed at a distance from the front as a result of longitudinal, transverse, or torsional elastic waves propagating in the columns

I've had a few instances where I used Pyrex glass plates as an internal shield in vaccum systems that produce high temperature that later cracked. I had one piece of glass that was heated up in the unit a few times. I took it out and put it on a table. It sat for a couple days undisturbed. A few days later it had cracks all through it but no one had disturbed it. There was a stored elastic strain energy in it from the thermal cycling. It broke on its own. It had a web of cracks that flowed away from a particular point where the first crack started propagating. Maybe the room temperature had changed just enough to start a crack propagating. It reminded me of the Bavarian tear. I took another plate of the same material and heated it up gently with a torch. It cracked into many pieces all at once within a few minutes of heating it.

Pyrex didn't have enough thermal shock resistance. I ended up switching to a glass called Vycor which is about 96% silica. It has a high thermal shock resistance but is also more expensive.

http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/rupdrop/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert%27s_Drops

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert_of_the_Rhine

http://consumerist.com/consumer/pyrex/why-...lode-232474.php
reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 6 2007, 05:10 PM)
I thought I saw a post wondering why NIST used a 5 kip pull-in force, over 5 floors, to obtain the observed bowing of the south wall of WTC 1 and east wall of WTC 2.

NCSTAR1-6D Chapter 3 explains the use of an isolated wall model to obtain some values needed for the final so-called global model. In this portion of the study, some minor buckling of the isolated wall was obtained, but insufficient to explain the observations.

So in Chapter 5, we have a distributed 5 kip pull-in force. Engineering approximation.

NIST tries to model the pull in force of the trusses in the full floor model and guess what happens? THE WALLS BOW OUT IN ALL 4 CASES laugh.gif

QUOTE
A.4 SUMMARY OF RESULTS

Pull-in forces were expected to develop whenever the floor sagged. Although the floor sagging was captured by the floor models in the heated area, the pull-in force on the exterior columns was not captured in most of the full floor model analyses. To accurately calculate pull-in forces between the floor and the exterior columns in the full floor model, much more detailed modeling would be required. Such modeling includes accurate boundary conditions on columns, creep in steel, friction at the truss seats, accurate evaluation of failure of strap anchors and studs, and concrete cracking and spalling. In addition, temperature time histories that were used in the full floor model analyses may be different if improved estimates of impact damage to insulation were obtained. Further discussion on the pull-in force can be found in Section 2.5.2 of this report.


So, what do these great engineers and scientist do when the wall bows the wrong way? They use photos to guess at the force necessary to match the distorted photo. THEY CAN NOT GET THE FLOOR MATH MODEL TO PULL THE WALL IN SO THEY JUST ASSUME IT DOES AND ESTIMATE THE FORCE FROM A PHOTO! biggrin.gif


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A.4 SUMMARY OF RESULTS

Pull-in forces were expected to develop whenever the floor sagged. Although the floor sagging was captured by the floor models in the heated area, the pull-in force on the exterior columns was not captured in most of the full floor model analyses. To accurately calculate pull-in forces between the floor and the exterior columns in the full floor model, much more detailed modeling would be required. Such modeling includes accurate boundary conditions on columns, creep in steel, friction at the truss seats, accurate evaluation of failure of strap anchors and studs, and concrete cracking and spalling. In addition, temperature time histories that were used in the full floor model analyses may be different if improved estimates of impact damage to insulation were obtained. Further discussion on the pull-in force can be found in Section 2.5.2 of this report.


So, what do these great engineers and scientist do when the wall bows the wrong way? They use photos to guess at the force necessary to match the distorted photo. THEY CAN NOT GET THE FLOOR MATH MODEL TO PULL THE WALL IN SO THEY JUST ASSUME IT DOES AND ESTIMATE THE FORCE FROM A PHOTO! biggrin.gif


Pull-in Forces to Cause Observed Bowing

As discussed in Section 2.5, the pull-in forces and their locations and the calculated floor/wall disconnections and pull-in locations were updated based on the observations from the photographs and videos. This section describes the analyses performed on the isolated wall model to estimate the magnitude of pull-in forces on the east wall of WTC 2, which would result in an inward bowing shape similar to that estimated from the photographs and videos. The estimated pull-in forces were used in the global analysis with Case D temperature condition.

The load steps that were used in the current analyses are similar to the load steps used in the earlier wall runs. At the beginning of each temperature load step, disconnections and lateral pull-in forces were applied to each floor connection to the east wall, as shown in Section 2.5. The magnitude and the distribution of the pull-in forces were obtained by trial and error. The magnitude of the pull-in force was kept constant till the end of the analysis, unless the column-floor connection fully disconnected before the analysis ended; at which point the pull-in force was set to zero. For each trial, the wall model was analyzed from the beginning (time = 0 min), accounting for large deflections and temperature-dependent plasticity and creep. The out-of-plane displacements calculated at the end of 20 min and 50 min were compared to the displacements estimated at the same points in time from the photographs, as shown in Fig. 3–98.




NISTNCSTAR1-6D

So, the entire collapse initiation is based on estimates from a photo because the FEA floor model did not bow in and actually bowed out. WHAT A JOKE. laugh.gif

Can you imagine what the OCT'ers would do if a “truther” ran a FEA explosive simulation and it bowed the walls out so they decided to use a photo to prove demolition caused the walls to bow in initiating collapse? laugh.gif
Chainsaw,
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 8 2007, 02:17 AM)
I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Bavarian glass teardrops used by Prince Rupert of Bavaria. Cherenapov mentioned it in his paper, although he inadvertantly refers to them as 'Batavian' tears.

It's a droplet of glass that is cooled very quickly from a melt in a way that leaves a large residual elastic strain energy in the glass. There is a thin tail on the end of the teardrop shaped piece that can be cracked by hand. When the tail is snapped, a crack is initiated and the teardrop sometimes explodes into many pieces.

I don't think that happened with the towers. There is some relevance in relation to the concrete slabs being fractured, but that was due to the energy of the impacting mass which imparted elastic strain energy into the concrete, not a previously stored elastic strain energy in the concrete. The slab impacts also account for the explosive noises. There was stored elastic strain energy in the columns due to the weight of the building but that isn't enough to fracture ductile metal columns into many small pieces, although it might have some relevance with respect to fracturing of floor connections and column splices which had little energy absorbing ability. It's possible that some of those connections failed at a distance from the front as a result of longitudinal, transverse, or torsional elastic waves propagating in the columns

I've had a few instances where I used Pyrex glass plates as an internal shield in vaccum systems that produce high temperature that later cracked. I had one piece of glass that was heated up in the unit a few times. I took it out and put it on a table. It sat for a couple days undisturbed. A few days later it had cracks all through it but no one had disturbed it. There was a stored elastic strain energy in it from the thermal cycling. It broke on its own. It had a web of cracks that flowed away from a particular point where the first crack started propagating. Maybe the room temperature had changed just enough to start a crack propagating. It reminded me of the Bavarian tear. I took another plate of the same material and heated it up gently with a torch. It cracked into many pieces all at once within a few minutes of heating it.

Pyrex didn't have enough thermal shock resistance. I ended up switching to a glass called Vycor which is about 96% silica. It has a high thermal shock resistance but is also more expensive.

http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/rupdrop/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert%27s_Drops

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert_of_the_Rhine

http://consumerist.com/consumer/pyrex/why-...lode-232474.php

Your Plexiglas had expansion induced micro fractures when you placed it on the table it was already cracked I would almost bet that the Plexiglas went from a vertical to horizontal position, in placing it on the table.

Strain energy can be induce into metals in building in several ways, one is cycling movement do to wind load, another is thermal expansion.
Capracus
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 8 2007, 02:17 AM)
I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Bavarian glass teardrops used by Prince Rupert of Bavaria.  Cherenapov mentioned it in his paper, although he inadvertantly refers to them as 'Batavian' tears.
einsteen
QUOTE (FactCheck+Mar 6 2007, 11:31 PM)
user posted image

http://www.debunking911.com/push.jpg

Not all column trees went inside the building but it's obvious most did.

This model doesn't really differ from the model with no tilt, if you believe the building wedges at one side into the block and the block at the other side into the building then you admit the symmetry of the situation. After a fuzzy start we effectively have a collapsing crushing mass on top of a building. The block can never wedge through the whole building. If you also take into account the big squire block in the center that consists of the core columns and the trusses within the cores then we have a core on core collision. But I still don't know what the idea of the wedge model is, to explain the ejected material? Because of the complexity of the problem you cannot simply assume a kind of wedge process especially not because the gathered mass below is one big random mess of material.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 7 2007, 06:24 PM)
NIST tries to model the pull in force of the trusses in the full floor model and guess what happens? THE WALLS BOW OUT IN ALL 4 CASES laugh.gif



So, what do these great engineers and scientist do when the wall bows the wrong way? They use photos to guess at the force necessary to match the distorted photo. THEY CAN NOT GET THE FLOOR MATH MODEL TO PULL THE WALL IN SO THEY JUST ASSUME IT DOES AND ESTIMATE THE FORCE FROM A PHOTO! biggrin.gif




NISTNCSTAR1-6D

So,  the entire collapse initiation is based on estimates from a photo because the FEA floor model did not bow in and actually bowed out. WHAT A  JOKE. laugh.gif

Can you imagine what the OCT'ers would do if a “truther” ran a FEA explosive simulation and it bowed the walls out so they decided to use a photo to prove demolition caused the walls to bow in initiating collapse?   laugh.gif

Game, set, match . . . .


biggrin.gif

The NIST report is based on mythical lateral gravitational forces !
David B. Benson
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2007, 02:24 AM)
THE WALLS BOW OUT IN ALL 4 CASES
NISTNCSTAR1-6D

Page number(s), please.
lozenge124
New piece by Kevin Ryan, formerly of UL laboratories.
QUOTE
The extensive paperwork necessary to complete civil engineering projects is obtained by working closely with, and staying on good terms with, local and national authorities. That fact may not be enough to ensure vocal support for the official story of “global collapse”, but it has been enough to keep most structural engineers from publicly opposing the intransigent government stance on the WTC events.

more at http://www.911blogger.com/node/6765
lozenge124
Also, yesterday, David Ray Griffin posted a reply to George Monbiot's recent 911 article in the guardian:
QUOTE
One of the reasons these people reject the government’s conspiracy theory is that, if they were to accept the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Centre, they would need to affirm magical beliefs. A few examples:

The Twin Towers came straight down, which means that each building’s 287 steel columns all had to fail simultaneously; to believe this could happen without explosives is to believe in magic.

At the onset of each tower’s collapse, steel beams were ejected out as far as 600 feet; to believe that these horizontal ejections could be explained by gravitational energy, which is vertical, is to believe in magic.

Virtually all of the concrete in the towers was pulverized into extremely fine dust particles; to believe that fire plus gravity could have done this is to believe in magic.

WTC 7 and the towers came down at virtually free-fall speed, meaning that the lower floors, with all their steel and concrete, provided no resistance to the upper floors; to believe this could happen without explosives is to believe in magic.

Pools of molten metal were found under each building. Because steel does not begin to melt until it reaches about 1,540°C and yet the fires could not have gotten over 1000°C, to accept the fire theory is to believe in magic.

full piece here: http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/812/1

Monbiot's Feb 20 piece is here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Colum...2017005,00.html
Grumpy
lozenge124

QUOTE
New piece by Kevin Ryan, formerly of UL laboratories.


And we should care what this WATER TESTER has to say why??? Did they find a swimming pool underneath the rubble??? He simply doesn't know what he is talking about.

Grumpy cool.gif
David B. Benson
NCSTAR1-6D, page 39 (103 ordinal):

"Floor analyses showed that floors initially pushed exterior column[sic] outward by a few inches. However, significant outward bowing was not observed and several inches of outward deflection of exterior columns would not affect the global stability of the towers."

A few insignificant inches!

rolleyes.gif blink.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (lozenge124+Mar 8 2007, 09:12 PM)
David Ray Griffin

You are aware he is a theologian who knows no physics? huh.gif

Anyway, for WTC 1 here is how available kinetic energy built up over the first 0.8 seconds. The first column is the time and the second column is the fraction of a one story the tower dropped and the third column is the kinetic energy expressed as a fraction of that required to crush one story.

0.0 -- --
0.2 0.04 0.065
0.4 0.17 0.266
0.6 0.38 0.575
0.8 0.66 1.011

There is always more than enough kinetic energy available to crush the next increment so that the crushing front continues to pick up speed, although this only becomes obvious at 0.4 seconds.

This data is derived from NEU-FONZE's measurements using the B & V crush-down equation with the best overall (3 seconds) fit for the resistance.
lozenge124
I just came across this video someone posted at the democraticunderground forum.

It's called "9/11 Truth: NIST Report Debunked" and has some footage of Steven Jones & Kevin Ryan I haven't seen before, as well as a certain Jim Nesch who operates a brass foundry. There is also some brief footage of the tower core(s) at some point.

It's about 20 minutes, quite concise and to the point - if anyone is interested:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cvkz_91...report-debunked

David B. Benson
To add to my previous post on collapse initiation for WTC 1, here are the instantaneous accelerations, as a fraction of g. Again the first column is the time in seconds.

0.0 --
0.2 0.6985
0.4 0.6934
0.6 0.6883
0.8 0.6781

Note the trend. A reasonable choice for time = 0.0 is acc = 0.7036 g. In any case, over the first second, acceleration decreased with time and drop, despite the assumption of constant resistance at evry elevation.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 8 2007, 01:46 PM)
NCSTAR1-6D, page 39 (103 ordinal):

"Floor analyses showed that floors initially pushed exterior column[sic] outward by a few inches. However, significant outward bowing was not observed and several inches of outward deflection of exterior columns would not affect the global stability of the towers."

A few insignificant inches!

rolleyes.gif  blink.gif

Very good, you have finally figured it out ( what I have claimed for the last 2 threads). The lateral forces from gravity and Thermal expansion as the full floor model proved , were insignificant! biggrin.gif


Now we can work on figuring out what really caused the trusses to pull in, initiating collapse. smile.gif

Are any other OCT'ers going to switch sides and help out? biggrin.gif

Edited to add, Thermal expansion as the full floor model proved
David B. Benson
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2007, 12:53 AM)
The lateral forces from gravity were insignificant!

Yup. The lateral forces on the exterior walls were primarily due to the heating of the trusses and their subsequent deformation.

Now go on to read Chapter 3 in 1-6D and perhaps you'll understand... wink.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 8 2007, 05:00 PM)
Yup. The lateral forces on the exterior walls were primarily due to the heating of the trusses and their subsequent deformation.

Now go on to read Chapter 3 in 1-6D and perhaps you'll understand...  wink.gif

DBB, are you implying that NIST left heating and deformation of the trusses out of the full floor model simulation? blink.gif

You need to read NISTNCSTAR1-6D again. wink.gif

If you are going to be on the "truther" side you have to stop making false accusations (that is for the OCT'ers). dry.gif
Chainsaw,
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2007, 01:35 AM)
DBB, are you implying that NIST left heating and deformation of the trusses out of the full floor model simulation? blink.gif

You need to read NISTNCSTAR1-6D again. wink.gif

If you are going to be on the "truther" side you have to stop making false accusations (that is for the OCT'ers). dry.gif

I do not believe that is what he meant by a few insignificant inches.
Also since when have the truthers told the truth? blink.gif
Grumpy
reasonless

QUOTE
Very good, you have finally figured it out ( what I have claimed for the last 2 threads). The lateral forces from gravity and Thermal expansion as the full floor model proved , were insignificant! 


Now we can work on figuring out what really caused the trusses to pull in, initiating collapse. 


After the initial thermal expansion came the failure of the trusses to remain stiff. They then started sagging into caternary archs and from the outward push of thermal expnsion, transitioned into the inward pull of the caternary. And where the expansion had been nominal, and within the tolerances, the caternary forces were not and as they accumulated over several floors, they pulled inward on the outer frame making it unable to susstain the verticle load of the top, leading to failure.

So says NIST, I accept that as fact, now show some kind of evidence that it is not true, if you can.

Grumpy cool.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Chainsaw+,Mar 8 2007, 06:02 PM)
I do not believe that is what he meant by a few insignificant inches.
  Also since when have the truthers told the truth?  blink.gif

Chainsaw, as I have told your (DA) buddy Grumpster, don’t let the truth or reality get in the way of your beliefs. I honestly don’t think either one of you could handle it.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 8 2007, 06:34 PM)
reasonless
After the initial thermal expansion came the failure of the trusses to remain stiff. They then started sagging into caternary archs and from the outward push of thermal expnsion, transitioned into the inward pull of the caternary. And where the expansion had been nominal, and within the tolerances, the caternary forces were not and as they accumulated over several floors, they pulled inward on the outer frame making it unable to susstain the verticle load of the top, leading to failure.

Please , page number or quote to back this BS up (or is this more grumpster beliefs). biggrin.gif
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 8 2007, 06:34 PM)

So says NIST, I accept that as fact, now show some kind of evidence that it is not true, if you can.

Grumpy cool.gif


How about the NIST full floor assembly simulation that I ( and DBB) have quoted and NIST ignores so they can use the photos to estimate the lateral forces. wink.gif
Precursor562
Just some food for thought. The maximum at which jet fuel can burn is 980degC and this requires a controlled burn where the fuel air mixture is prime. An open air burn which produces yellow/orange flame and lots of smoke will burn lower than this.

At best you would get 60% giving you a temperature of 588degC. The melting point of the steel is ~1500degC. The jet fuel would have been the hottest burning substance found in the building and it would have burned up within seconds. In fact with the second crash (the one that oddly brought a building down first) 90% of the fuel burned up outside the adjacent wall. The plane only caught the corner of the building.

The main support columns were shielded by concrete and so was always separate from the fire and never in it. Now it is true that the temperature inside an inferno can reach 2000degC this is again under ideal circumstances and your looking at less than this. Now you may be thinking that 2000degC is more than enough to melt the steel, keep in mind that this temperature is recorded in the heart of the inferno. This temperature quickly comes down to anywhere between 600 - 1000degC. Add the distance (and heat absorption value) of the concrete filled with connecting rhubarb (that would have acted like a heat sink) and the temperature reaching the main supports would be even less.

Now you may be thinking that the columns were designed to support tons of weight and the heat could have been enough to weaken the steel allowing for a collapse from the top down. Keep in mind that these planes hit near the top for one (the second which oddly fell first) and above center for the other. The steel columns that support the building are identical at the bottom as they are at the top. The beams and surrounding concrete goes straight up without a taper. So the steel at the floors affected that were supporting ~15% of the towers total weight for one (the second one hit that fell first) and ~35% of the towers total weight for the other were strong enough to support the towers complete (100%) weight plus max personal cap plus high winds. Also called gross max weight under windy conditions. So there is no way the steel would have weakened the 85% for the first tower to fall with 90% of the jet fuel burning up outside the building in one huge fireball.

Also in both situations the heat would have originated from an isolated location then spread. This means the beams closest to the fire would heat up first then the ones farther away. This would have led to an uneven weakening of the main support column. The result would be collapse at one side then the other. Also called a topple. Once the top portion toppled over far enough then the stress placed upon the remaining columns would cause them to shear off. The tops (section above impact) of the building would have toppled over off of the bottoms (section below impact).

Instead the buildings came straight down in ~10 seconds. This is consistent with a near free fall state which can only be achieved with a demolition.

Also the building that was hit second and received the least damage closer to the top was first to begin its collapse without warning in just under an hour.

The columns that were exposed after collapse showed angled cuts with almost no warping and had slag indicating the column was cut and the charge used (expected to be thermite) creates molten metal materials which will solidify as slag under the cut.

There is no way the planes brought the towers down. It was an illusion or slight of hand. Bush (who is business associates with Bin Laden in the oil industry) got Bin Laden to create a diversion (in the form of a terrorist act) so that he could get away with demolishing the buildings. What was there to gain?

The buildings were old and filled with out dated (toxic) building material such as asbestos (a superb, fire retardant insulator) which was coating the steel beams and insulating the walls. The cost of repair was beyond the value of the buildings but the cost of deconstruction would have been too. Cost of clean up after a terrorist attack was not.

Invest in the right things and you can walk away quite rich since the value of some stocks went up from their destruction. Certain people who have close ties to the bush family including the new owner of the trade center benefited from this.

The massive insurance policy specific against terrorist attack that had a larger than normal pay out if both towers were to be targeted as opposed to just one.

The realization that the defense of the US was lacking and they were becoming vulnerable. So a staged assault like this was enough to turn the tables and security was increased to the liking of those who were really responsible. This included a defense budget increase. Remember that this money has to come from somewhere and there needs to be a valid reason to increase the budget.

So there was much to gain.

Now where are those weapons of mass destruction that Saddam supposedly had? Why is it that they found, trialled, and hung Saddam so quickly but Bin Laden is still roaming free somewhere?

This was an excuse to start Gulf War no.2 and was nothing more than an oil grab for a predicted (now existing) oil shortage. Hidden behind the public title "war against terrorism" is the true title "war so we can get the oil".
Al Kyda
QUOTE
Precursor562: "The steel columns that support the building are identical at the bottom as they are at the top. The beams and surrounding concrete goes straight up without a taper."


The columns had the same overall dimensions, but the gauge of the steel decreased from being very thick at the bottom to quite thin at the top. (if memory serves)

There were no "angled cuts", except those made by the clean up crew.

Your politicizing and otherwise creative writing tells us all we need to know about your true ability to debunk the "official story" on scientific grounds. If you could, there'd be no need for all those additional fairy tales.

You're using them as a crutch, which is evident to all, and without which you'd fall.
Grumpy
reasonwhy

QUOTE
Please , page number or quote to back this BS up (or is this more grumpster beliefs).


Here you are, DA.

NIST NCSTAR throughout this document refers to one of the 43 volumes that comprise NIST’s final report on the WTC Towers issued in October 2005. All sections of the report listed in this document are available at http://wtc.nist.gov.)

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”

The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation.

The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. The massive damage was caused by the large mass of the aircraft, their high speed and momentum, which severed the relatively light steel of the exterior columns on the impact floors. The results of the NIST impact analyses matched well with observations (from photos and videos and analysis of recovered WTC steel) of exterior damage and of the amount and location of debris exiting from the buildings. This agreement supports the premise that the structural damage to the towers was due to the aircraft impact and not to any alternative forces.

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
diagram of composit wtc floor system

Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

User posted image

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

*

the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

*

the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Grumpy cool.gif

Al Kyda
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 9 2007, 05:00 AM)

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds

I think you & NIST may be onto something there, Grumpy. It may have been just a bunch of pissed off Muslims after all, like you and Kyle say. wink.gif

You may have heard this if you're a regular reader of the Screw Loose Change blog like I am, but the guys from South Park, Matt & Trey, discuss their 9/11 show with Penn Jillette, who of course did his own 9/11 expose', along with Teller of course, on their show "BS", on Showtime.

Kind of interesting, at least for fans of Penn & Teller and South Park.
Capracus
QUOTE (lozenge124+Mar 8 2007, 11:24 PM)
I just came across this video someone posted at the democraticunderground forum.

It's called "9/11 Truth: NIST Report Debunked" and has some footage of Steven Jones & Kevin Ryan I haven't seen before, as well as a certain Jim Nesch who operates a brass foundry. There is also some brief footage of the tower core(s) at some point.

It's about 20 minutes, quite concise and to the point - if anyone is interested:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cvkz_91...report-debunked

I didn't know the Empire State building was struck by a B-52 on July 8, 1945. It must have been a top secret prototype, because the first official prototype didn't fly until 1952. Thank God we have the truthers around to expose the real facts.

From Kevin Ryan we learn an interesting fact about the construction of the towers. He states in the video that the towers have a free standing core, which was put in place first, and then the rest of the structure was built around it. He could teach Leslie Robertson a thing or two.

Professor Jones tells us that the molten metal streaming from the south tower couldn't be aluminum because he did experiments that prove his point, but he offers no explanation of his own. He also states that the structural members of the towers were designed to remain standing when things hit them. Didn't PANYNJ do a study indicating that the towers could survive the impact of a mass equivalent to 30 floors of the WTC towers?
Palpatane
QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)
Just some food for thought.  The maximum at which jet fuel can burn is 980degC and this requires a controlled burn where the fuel air mixture is prime.  An open air burn which produces yellow/orange flame and lots of smoke will burn lower than this.


So, are you saying that the maximum temperature that a jet fuel air combustion reaction can reach under any and all circumstances is 980° C?

In other words are you claiming that if you burn a fuel air mixture with a starting temperature of 50° C, the output will only reach 980° C?

Is it your claim that if you burn a fuel air mixture with a starting temperature of 500° C, the output will only reach 980° C?

What if the starting temperature of the fuel air mixture was of 979° C, will the output still only reach 980° C?

By what basis do you conclude that the fire in the towers were open air burns? It looked like the fires were inside buildings to me.

Are you aware that fire tests of building materials and furniture routinely produce temperatures in excess of 1000°C?


QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)
At best you would get 60% giving you a temperature of 588degC.  The melting point of the steel is ~1500degC. 


Please provide some support to back up this 60%/588°C claim. Math and science only, and please clearly identify all assumptions and speculations.

You do realize that even at 600°C structural steel loses over half its strength, don’t you?


QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)
The jet fuel would have been the hottest burning substance found in the building and it would have burned up within seconds.  In fact with the second crash (the one that oddly brought a building down first) 90% of the fuel burned up outside the adjacent wall.  The plane only caught the corner of the building.


So, how did the fuel in the left wing tanks make it outside the building?

Bonus question: How much energy is released when 1 gallon of jet fuel is completely burned up in 10 seconds?



QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)

The main support columns were shielded by concrete and so was always separate from the fire and never in it. 


laugh.gif No, that is completely wrong.


QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)
Now it is true that the temperature inside an inferno can reach 2000degC this is again under ideal circumstances and your looking at less than this. 


Wait a minute; you just said that the fire could not have exceeded 988°C. Your argument is very strange.

What are “ideal” circumstances for a structure/compartment fire and how did the towers differ from these?


QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)
Now you may be thinking that 2000degC is more than enough to melt the steel, keep in mind that this temperature is recorded in the heart of the inferno.  This temperature quickly comes down to anywhere between 600 - 1000degC. 


Are you talking about the temperature in the hot gas layer that is next to the ceiling? Nothing up there but those pesky trusses.

QUOTE (Precursor562+Mar 8 2007, 09:58 PM)

Add the distance (and heat absorption value) of the concrete filled with connecting rhubarb (that would have acted like a heat sink) and the temperature reaching the main supports would be even less. 


MMMM, Rhubarb. Yummy.


The rest of your post is the same, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are arguing in circles.
Chainsaw,
QUOTE (Palpatane+Mar 9 2007, 11:38 AM)

So, are you saying that the maximum temperature that a jet fuel air combustion reaction can reach under any and all circumstances is 980° C? 

In other words are you claiming that if you burn a fuel air mixture with a starting temperature of 50° C, the output will only reach 980° C?

Is it your claim that if you burn a fuel air mixture with a starting temperature of 500° C, the output will only reach 980° C?

What if the starting temperature of the fuel air mixture was of 979° C, will the output still only reach 980° C?

By what basis do you conclude that the fire in the towers were open air burns?  It looked like the fires were inside buildings to me. 

Are you aware that fire tests of building materials and furniture routinely produce temperatures in excess of 1000°C?




Please provide some support to back up this 60%/588°C claim.  Math and science only, and please clearly identify all assumptions and speculations. 

You do realize that even at 600°C structural steel loses over half its strength, don’t you? 




So, how did the fuel in the left wing tanks make it outside the building? 

Bonus question:  How much energy is released when 1 gallon of jet fuel is completely burned up in 10 seconds? 





laugh.gif    No, that is completely wrong. 




Wait a minute; you just said that the fire could not have exceeded 988°C.  Your argument is very strange. 

What are “ideal” circumstances for a structure/compartment fire and how did the towers differ from these? 




Are you talking about the temperature in the hot gas layer that is next to the ceiling?  Nothing up there but those pesky trusses. 



MMMM, Rhubarb.  Yummy. 


The rest of your post is the same, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are arguing in circles.

He can not provide evidence of anything, the diesel fuel is not the most efficient fuel the carbon black from the diesel the partially burned paper, and other fuels is.

This is what high sulfur diesel does to a 6 inch steel pipe.
User posted image
Do you think that DR. JONES would like to test the Yellow sulfur deposits for thermate residue? laugh.gif

Of course this steel could not have ignited and did not form the black iron oxide since Kevin Ryan proved that steel can resist temperatures of 2000C and this steel was only exposed to temperatures of between, 1350c-1800c

You can actually take Diesel fuel residue from the exhaust systems of Diesel engines, and make crude iron in nothing but a small chimney effect.

Diesel fuel residue,
User posted image
The diesel fuel residue is similar to charcoal, the first substance to make iron!
It forms whenever there is excess fuel like during load in a diesel engine during acceleration!
YOU know when the black smoke rolls out because of too much fuel in a Semi engine!
Iron ore,
User posted image

Crude iron with some ore still mixed in,
User posted image

User posted image

That was just a small test sample, I plan on a bigger test example in the future!
I want to make some more of this impossible Iron that diesel fuel can not smelt from natural iron ore!

The entire steel making process is based on preburned carbon based fuels to say that diesel can not melt steel is to say that steel does not exist in the first place! blink.gif

So please some one show the towers were never there because steel can not be made because steel can not be made without preburned carbon fuels.
Palpatane
So, Chainsaw, What do you think of my theory that the rhubarb-ermite is responsible for the collapse?

Once you start rhubarb burning, nothing can stop it.
einsteen
QUOTE (lozenge124+Mar 8 2007, 11:24 PM)
I just came across this video someone posted at the democraticunderground forum.

It's called "9/11 Truth: NIST Report Debunked" and has some footage of Steven Jones & Kevin Ryan I haven't seen before, as well as a certain Jim Nesch who operates a brass foundry. There is also some brief footage of the tower core(s) at some point.

It's about 20 minutes, quite concise and to the point - if anyone is interested:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cvkz_91...report-debunked

Great movie, but I think Jones shouldn't mention Kuttler's paper, I've seen that paper and he applies pancaking to wtc7 and uses E1=0 and concludes it is near free-fall something that we all know already because it was no pancaking (although you see some movement at the top). Kuttler didn't calculate the collapse of the twin towers as far as I know, but if you use his formalism for the towers then it would not be those over 30 seconds he mentioned, probably he was confused or made a misstake.
lozenge124
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 9 2007, 04:55 PM)
Great movie, but I think Jones shouldn't mention Kuttler's paper, I've seen that paper and he applies pancaking to wtc7 and uses E1=0 and concludes it is near free-fall something that we all know already because it was no pancaking (although you see some movement at the top). Kuttler didn't calculate the collapse of the twin towers as far as I know, but if you use his formalism for the towers then it would not be those over 30 seconds he mentioned, probably he was confused or made a misstake.

I caught that too and I agree, I couldn't find any Kuttler calculations for WTC1-2. I'm not sure when the interviews in the video were done; perhaps they are quite old, even though the video was posted recently.

Glad you found it interesting!
David B. Benson
WTC 1 collapse initiation again --- I note the coincidence between the actual location of the south wall bow in, towards the east end, with the location of the most stressed core columns in the so-called global model of NCSTAR1-6D, in the3 south east portion of the core.

Not fully understanding the hat truss action, I don't know whether the stressed portion of the core unloaded onto the nearest portion of the south wall. As I stated, it might be just coincidence. unsure.gif
David B. Benson
From FEMA 273, NEHRP Guidelines for Seismic Rehabilitation of Buildings, page 5--13:

"The strength and ductility of full pen connections [welds] are not fully understood at this time."

October 1997. ohmy.gif
Chainsaw,
QUOTE (Palpatane+Mar 9 2007, 01:49 PM)
So, Chainsaw, What do you think of my theory that the rhubarb-ermite is responsible for the collapse?

Once you start rhubarb burning, nothing can stop it.

It is more plausible than the thermite-thermate theories, rhubarb does not suffer from the formation of thermite sparks do to Acoustic oscillations.
Capracus
QUOTE (lozenge124+Mar 8 2007, 11:24 PM)
I just came across this video someone posted at the democraticunderground forum.

It's called "9/11 Truth: NIST Report Debunked" and has some footage of Steven Jones & Kevin Ryan I haven't seen before, as well as a certain Jim Nesch who operates a brass foundry. There is also some brief footage of the tower core(s) at some point.

It's about 20 minutes, quite concise and to the point - if anyone is interested:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cvkz_91...report-debunked

QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 9 2007, 04:55 PM)
Great movie.

User posted image
I have some questions for the makers of the video. Was the B-52 bomber that struck the Empire State building in 1945 carrying nuclear weapons? Was it fully loaded with fuel? How fast was it going? I can't seem to find any record of the event.
Chainsaw,
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 01:48 AM)

User posted image
I have some questions for the makers of the video. Was the B-52 bomber that struck the Empire State building in 1945 carrying nuclear weapons? Was it fully loaded with fuel? How fast was it going? I can't seem to find any record of the event.

Try this site, http://www.b25.net/

I am sure you can find a similar plane to the one that Doolittle flew off an air craft carrier, or that crashed into the empire state building there.
Personally I do not think that a B52 has ever taken off from an aircraft carrier!
lozenge124
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 01:48 AM)

User posted image
I have some questions for the makers of the video. Was the B-52 bomber that struck the Empire State building in 1945 carrying nuclear weapons? Was it fully loaded with fuel? How fast was it going? I can't seem to find any record of the event.

It's an error, it was actually a B-25.

User posted image
User posted image

See for example http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179
Palpatane
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 9 2007, 07:48 PM)

User posted image
I have some questions for the makers of the video. Was the B-52 bomber that struck the Empire State building in 1945 carrying nuclear weapons? Was it fully loaded with fuel? How fast was it going? I can't seem to find any record of the event.

biggrin.gif

Some people just don't get it.

reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 9 2007, 11:15 AM)
WTC 1 collapse initiation again --- I note the coincidence between the actual location of the south wall bow in, towards the east end, with the location of the most stressed core columns in the so-called global model of NCSTAR1-6D, in the3 south east portion of the core.

Not fully understanding the hat truss action, I don't know whether the stressed portion of the core unloaded onto the nearest portion of the south wall. As I stated, it might be just coincidence.  unsure.gif

Did you read NCSTAR1-6D? biggrin.gif

It is not a coincidence when NIST uses the photo to estimate the lateral forces then added the forces to the global model ignoring the FEA model that showed it was not possible. wink.gif
Capracus
QUOTE (Chainsaw+,Mar 10 2007, 02:06 AM)
Try this site, http://www.b25.net/

I am sure you can find a similar plane to the one that Doolittle flew off an air craft carrier, or that crashed into the empire state building there.
  Personally I do not think that a B52 has ever taken off from an aircraft carrier!

User posted image
Chainsaw, you should know by now that anything is possible in the world of truth.
User posted image
The Doolittle Raid of April 18, 1942. Sixteen B-52s take off the deck of the USS Hornet on their way to bomb Tokyo.
Palpatane
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 04:58 AM)
User posted image
Chainsaw, you should know by now that anything is possible in the world of truth.
User posted image

The Doolittle Raid of April 18, 1942. Sixteen B-52s take off the deck of the USS Hornet on their way to bomb Tokyo.



ROFLMAO!!!!!!!


Hornets on the deck of the Hornet. tongue.gif
Capracus
QUOTE (Capracus+ Mar 10 2007, 01:48 AM)
I have some questions for the makers of the video. Was the B-52 bomber that struck the Empire State building in 1945 carrying nuclear weapons? Was it fully loaded with fuel? How fast was it going? I can't seem to find any record of the event.

QUOTE (lozenge124+Mar 10 2007, 02:39 AM)
It's an error, it was actually a B-25.
No, I don't think it was an error, I think that the producers of the video deliberately said B-52 to lead unsuspecting viewers to believe that large aircraft are not a threat to large skyscrapers. That's what Truth videos are all about, leading the ignorant by the nose to unfounded conclusions.

Was it an error when Jones states in the video that the floor trusses in the UL fire tests only had 3 inches of deflection, when it was actually 15 inches? Was it an error when Jones fails to mention that the trusses in the tests were insulated? Was it an error when Kevin Ryan states that it was impossible for the insulation to be removed from the trusses by the plane impacts?

Palpatane
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 07:34 AM)
Was it an error when Kevin Ryan states that it was impossible for the insulation to be removed from the trusses by the plane impacts?

He actually said that? What a dope.

It is amazing the lengths that people will go to justify their mistakes.

Kevin Ryan had what would be considered a pretty good job as a manager of a water testing lab. He threw it all away. For what?

So that he can get stroked on the internet b a bunch of losers just like him?

I wonder if he cries himself to sleep looking at the mess he made of his life.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 05:34 AM)
No, I don't think it was an error, I think that the producers of the video deliberately said B-52 to lead unsuspecting viewers to believe that large aircraft are not a threat to large skyscrapers. That's what Truth videos are all about, leading the ignorant by the nose to unfounded conclusions.

Was it an error when Jones states in the video that the floor trusses in the UL fire tests only had 3 inches of deflection, when it was actually 15 inches? Was it an error when Jones fails to mention that the trusses in the tests were insulated? Was it an error when Kevin Ryan states that it was impossible for the insulation to be removed from the trusses by the plane impacts?

WOW, these OCT debunkers are uncovering more and more conspiracies . laugh.gif

You should see how much money the film made for the "snake oil salesmen" (thats right it is free)?

You should see who financed the film, it was probably OBL ( I am sure you can find a video were he admits it). laugh.gif


How about addressing the real problems. Did NIST test the trusses to see if they sagged in a caternary shape 45 inches with or without insulation? blink.gif


DID NIST even use the FEA floor SIMULATION ( since they did not do an actual test) to calculate the lateral forces for the global model ( what NIST claimed cased collapse initiation)?

People who did the airplane analysis on the WTC were still alive after 9/11 so claiming that they could not verify the calculations is BS (NIST must not have tried very hard).

IF you think an airplane can remove insulation from trusses show were NIST proved this (or is believing it would happen enough)? biggrin.gif
shagster
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 9 2007, 04:55 PM)
Great movie, but I think Jones shouldn't mention Kuttler's paper, I've seen that paper and he applies pancaking to wtc7 and uses E1=0 and concludes it is near free-fall something that we all know already because it was no pancaking (although you see some movement at the top). Kuttler didn't calculate the collapse of the twin towers as far as I know, but if you use his formalism for the towers then it would not be those over 30 seconds he mentioned, probably he was confused or made a misstake.

Kuttler's algebraic math model predicts what Greening's model does for a top-down collapse with E1=0 and the collapse starting at the top-most story.

Kuttler goofed twice. He derived an algebraic model that describes a crush-down collapse but tried to apply it to WTC7 which collapsed crush-up. Kuttler came up with a minimum collapse duration for WTC7 of 8.35 sec which is the duration that would occur for a tower 47 stories tall collapsing crush-down with the collapse starting at the top-most story. Using Greening's crush-down model for a building with 47 stories and one story for the upper block also gives 8.35 s, but that's not the proper model to use for wtc7.

Kuttler then insinuated that some other energy source caused the shorter observed duration, referencing a paper by Steven Jones that claims evidence that explosives were planted on the SW side of WTC7. That turned out to be discolored areas due to damage from WTC1 as seen in photos from the south side.

Kuttler's reasoning was wrong twice. His model was the wrong one to use for crush-up. Even if he applied it to a crush-down collapse such as WTC1 and WTC2, it would have given a wrong answer just like Cherenapov's 16 s value because it starts with the top-most story collapsing.

Cherenapov was using the proper differential equations for a top-down collapse but applied the wrong boundary conditions, which were for a collapse starting at the top-most story. That's how he came up with the erroneous collapse duration of 16 seconds for a collapse with E1=0, which is too long. Like Kuttler, he used a mis-applied model as 'proof' that the tower fell too fast and then offered another theory not in agreement with observations, that the entire tower fractured in a split second.

Both of these people are well into their careers and should know better.

If a bottom-up model is used for wtc7 with an E1 per mass that is the same as Greening's value, the predicted collapse duration for wtc7 is 6.6 s.
shagster
Looks like Kuttler's name was taken off the scholars site after what happened to Jones. Both are from BYU.
shagster
The collapse duration for a building the height of WTC7 can be shown to be about 6.6 seconds if it is modeled as a crush-up and if its ratio of E1/mh is taken to be similar to that of the towers.

The global collapse of WTC7 appeared to be bottom to top, as observed in the videos from the north side. A crush-up collapse can be modeled using the differential equation:

y'' = -g + E1/mh

where y is the distance from the ground level to the top of the building, g is acceleration due to gravity, E1 is the energy needed to collapse a story, m is the mass of the falling section, and h is the inter-story distance. Bazant and Verdure give details for deriving such equations.

For the model in this example, stories compact to zero height (stretch=0), no shedding occurs, and E1/mh is constant throughout the building. If E1=0, then the building falls at free-fall rate (y''=g). There is no slowing effect related to momentum transfer in a crush-up collapse.

The boundary conditions for a collapse that starts at the ground level with zero velocity are:

v=y'=0 at t=0
y=H at t=0

where H is the building height. y is zero at the end of collapse. Integrating the differential equation twice and applying the boundary conditions gives the solution and collapse duration:

t = sqrt(2H/[g-(E1/mh)])

For E1=0, the collapse occurs at free-fall rate and the duration is:

t = sqrt(2H/g)

The free-fall duration for WTC7 is 6.0 seconds.

The term E1/mh has units of acceleration.

E1/mh is not known for WTC7 without knowing the mass of the building and the value of E1, which depends on the structure and the failure modes during collapse. A value based on that of the WTC towers can be used to see if the predicted duration for WTC7 agrees with the observed one.

E1/mh for the towers can be calculated from Greening's model and measurements of collapse rate. For the towers, Greening used a total mass of 510E6 kg. For this mass, an E1 of 0.8 GJ at the 81st story of WTC2 was needed for his discrete collapse model to agree with the observed collapse rate during the first 4 seconds of collapse. m is the mass of the 29 falling stories. The ratio of E1/mh for WTC2 at the 81st story is

E1/mh = 0.8 GJ/(510E6*[29/110]*3.78) = 1.57 J/(kg*m) = 1.57 m/s2

The load-bearing ability increases toward the ground level since a larger amount of mass needs to be supported above the lower stories compared with higher ones. If E1 and the supported mass m increase at the same rate toward the ground level, then E1/mh is constant for the entire building.

WTC7 had 47 stories. For h=3.78 m, H is 178 m. Inserting H and the value of E1/mh=1.57 based on WTC2 into the solution gives:

t = sqrt(2H/[g-E1/(mh)])
t= sqrt(2*178/[9.81-1.57])
t = 6.57 s

The collapse duration is 6.57 s, which agrees with the observed duration for WTC7. The value of E1/mh for WTC7 was near 1.57 m/s^2 based on this type of model.

There were apparently one or more fire-weakened stories near the 5th story region of WTC7 where the trusses and transfer girders were located that initiated the collapse. Smoke was coming from that area for most of the day. The reduced values of E1 for those stories would give a slightly shorter collapse duration than what the above model predicts. There was also a brief crush-down phase if the collapse started near the 5th story area. That would increase the collapse duration slightly because of the slowing effect of momentum transfer during a brief crush-down.

A more detailed analysis would involve knowing the mass and E1 for each story of WTC7. The collapse duration could be calculated using a discrete algebraic model similar to the type used by Greening but for a crush-up collapse and using a mass and E1 that change on a story by story basis. A brief crush-down phase could also be included at the start of collapse.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2007, 06:56 AM)
For the model in this example, stories compact to zero height (stretch=0), no shedding occurs, and E1/mh is constant throughout the building. If E1=0, then the building falls at free-fall rate (y''=g).  There is no slowing effect related to momentum transfer in a crush-up collapse.


Please explain why ONE of your mythical models has shedding and the other doesn't (different type of gravity)? biggrin.gif
shagster
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2007, 03:24 PM)
Please explain why ONE of you mythical models has shedding and the other doesn't? biggrin.gif

We would like to hear your theory of how the towers collapsed along with a mathematical description that supports the theory.

Shedding that occurs in a crush-up at the ground level is expected to have little effect on the collapse duration since it isn't mass that is lost from an upper block above the front that is still falling and contributing to the collapse rate. In a crush-down, shedding is more important, as it slows the rate of collapse.

It's possible to have shedding during a crush-up above the front. That would consist of mass shedding from the falling section at some height above the ground level. That type of behavior could be modeled using the story-by-story discrete model that I referred to earlier. It's more difficult to do with a differential equation model.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2007, 07:38 AM)
We would like to hear your theory of how the towers collapsed along with a mathematical description that supports the theory.

Shedding that occurs in a crush-up at the ground level is expected to have little effect on the collapse duration since it isn't mass that is lost from an upper block above the front that is still falling and contributing to the  collapse rate.  In a crush-down, shedding is more important, as it slows the rate of collapse.

It's possible to have shedding during a crush-up above the front.  That would consist of mass shedding from the falling section at some height above the ground level.

You have at least 5 floors of shedding with Much more mass above.

The bulge was between the 10th and 13th floor that everyone new the building was going to collapse from.
shagster
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2007, 03:47 PM)
You have at least 5 floors of shedding with Much more mass above.

Only 5 floors of crush down. After that, the front remains at the ground level. Most of the damage is occurring there, not high and away from the front.

Much more mass above the front is the reason why the collapse duration is close to that of free-fall.
Grumpy
shagster

QUOTE
The collapse duration for a building the height of WTC7 can be shown to be about 6.6 seconds if it is modeled as a crush-up and if its ratio of E1/mh is taken to be similar to that of the towers.


But this equation does not agree with the seismic data of >18 seconds. I believe that 7 crumbled progressively from the south face to what we all saw of the north curtain wall falling. Given a six second free fall time the collapse may have taken 24 seconds from the first failure to the north wall's collapse.

Grumpy cool.gif
Palpatane
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 10 2007, 11:20 AM)
shagster



But this equation does not agree with the seismic data of >18 seconds. I believe that 7 crumbled progressively from the south face to what we all saw of the north curtain wall falling. Given a six second free fall time the collapse may have taken 24 seconds from the first failure to the north wall's collapse.

Grumpy cool.gif

The visual evidence from the movement of the roofline was, IIRC, at least 13 seconds long.
quicknthedead
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 06:34 AM)

Was it an error when Jones states in the video that the floor trusses in the UL fire tests only had 3 inches of deflection, when it was actually 15 inches?


Provide source data for your 15-inches.


Jones does not seem to be in error as he was using the NIST report.

And NIST setup its software parameters to model a computer result of 42-inches sagging -- 39 inches greater than the 3-inches observed in the actual UL fire test.

Can this be explained or justified?


From Kevin Ryan's paper, his Note #14:
http://journalof911studies.com/articles/Article_1_Ryan5.pdf
QUOTE
14. The extent of the floor deck sagging after the unrealistic time of two hours can be seen in NCSTAR 1-6 Figure 3-11 (p 49). The 3-inch result is visible there or, based on the 45 minute duration of fires in the failure zones, it can be seen in the graph of Figure 3-15 (p 52). The computer result of 42 inches of sagging is noted in the same report, Chapter 9, Figure 9-6 (p 297).
(emphasis mine)
And 9/11 was an inside job.





lozenge124
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 10 2007, 01:34 PM)
No, I don't think it was an error, I think that the producers of the video deliberately said B-52 to lead unsuspecting viewers to believe that large aircraft are not a threat to large skyscrapers. That's what Truth videos are all about, leading the ignorant by the nose to unfounded conclusions.

Was it an error when Jones states in the video that the floor trusses in the UL fire tests only had 3 inches of deflection, when it was actually 15 inches? Was it an errorwhen Jones fails to mention that the trusses in the tests were insulated? Was it an error when Kevin Ryan states that it was impossible for the insulation to beremoved from the trusses by the plane impacts?

You can find many of the references for those statements in Kevin Ryan's piece:
What is 9/11 Truth? - The First Steps

For example the 3" deflection is from NCSTAR 1-6 Figure 3-15 (p 52):
user posted image
(click for larger version, orange lines at 3" & 45 minutes added by me)
Why 45 minutes? WTC-2 was hit at 9:03am, collapsed at 9:59am, 56 minutes later. In NCSTAR 1-6, section 9.4.3 (p 322) and section 10.9.4 (p 338), NIST says “The fires in WTC 2 reached the east side of the building more quickly, within 10 to 20 minutes, than the 50 to 60 minutes it took the fires in WTC 1 to reach the south side.” Subtract "10 to 20 minutes" from 56 minutes to get roughly 45 minutes (at worst). Again this is in Kevin Ryan's paper.

The computer model with 42inch vertical displacement. (NCSTAR 1-6, section 9.3 (p 297))
user posted image
(click for larger version)


Here is the section from Ryan's paper where he discusses the insulation removal.
QUOTE
With step three we quickly get to the core of NIST’s collapse initiation argument.  Their report states that “The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.”  Considering that NIST so clearly depends on extensive fireproofing loss, you would think they would have spent a  great deal of their time and money investigating this effect and communicating the details. 

But no, one had to be very patient and focused to find what evidence NIST provided for this crucial claim.  Their test for fireproofing loss, never inserted in the draft reports, involved  shooting a total of fifteen rounds from a shotgun at non-representative samples in a plywood box. Flat steel plates were used instead of column samples, and no floor deck samples were tested at all. In the end, they slid the results into a 12 page appendix to the final report.[9] 

Unfortunately, it’s not hard to see that these tests actually disproved their findings.  One reason is that there is no evidence that a Boeing 767 could transform into any number of shotgun blasts. Nearly 100,000 blasts would be needed based on NIST’s own damage estimates, and these would have to be directed in a very symmetrical fashion to strip the columns and floors from all sides.  However, it is much more likely that the aircraft debris was a distribution of sizes from very large chunks to a few smaller ones, and that it was directed asymmetrically.  Also, there is no indication that fireproofing was stripped from beneath the aluminum cladding on the exterior columns, but in subsequent steps of their story, NIST depends on this. 

To put NIST’s pivotal claim to rest, there was simply no energy available to cause fireproofing loss. Previous calculations by engineers at MIT had shown that all the kinetic energy from the aircraft was consumed in breaking columns, crushing the floors and destroying the aircraft itself [10]. But NIST’s tests indicate that 1 MJ of energy was needed per square meter of surface area to shear the fireproofing off.  For the areas in question, more than 6,000 square meters of column, floor deck and floor joist surface, the extra energy needed would be several times more than the entire amount of kinetic energy available to begin with.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
With step three we quickly get to the core of NIST’s collapse initiation argument.  Their report states that “The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.”  Considering that NIST so clearly depends on extensive fireproofing loss, you would think they would have spent a  great deal of their time and money investigating this effect and communicating the details. 

But no, one had to be very patient and focused to find what evidence NIST provided for this crucial claim.  Their test for fireproofing loss, never inserted in the draft reports, involved  shooting a total of fifteen rounds from a shotgun at non-representative samples in a plywood box. Flat steel plates were used instead of column samples, and no floor deck samples were tested at all. In the end, they slid the results into a 12 page appendix to the final report.[9] 

Unfortunately, it’s not hard to see that these tests actually disproved their findings.  One reason is that there is no evidence that a Boeing 767 could transform into any number of shotgun blasts. Nearly 100,000 blasts would be needed based on NIST’s own damage estimates, and these would have to be directed in a very symmetrical fashion to strip the columns and floors from all sides.  However, it is much more likely that the aircraft debris was a distribution of sizes from very large chunks to a few smaller ones, and that it was directed asymmetrically.  Also, there is no indication that fireproofing was stripped from beneath the aluminum cladding on the exterior columns, but in subsequent steps of their story, NIST depends on this. 

To put NIST’s pivotal claim to rest, there was simply no energy available to cause fireproofing loss. Previous calculations by engineers at MIT had shown that all the kinetic energy from the aircraft was consumed in breaking columns, crushing the floors and destroying the aircraft itself [10]. But NIST’s tests indicate that 1 MJ of energy was needed per square meter of surface area to shear the fireproofing off.  For the areas in question, more than 6,000 square meters of column, floor deck and floor joist surface, the extra energy needed would be several times more than the entire amount of kinetic energy available to begin with.
[9] See NIST NCSTAR 1-6A, Appendix C, http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-6A.pdf

[10] NIST gave 2,500 MJ as the kinetic energy provided by the aircraft impacting the north tower.  Tomasz Wierzbicki and others from MIT calculated that all of this was consumed in damaging the aircraft and building, with no energy remaining.  Wierzbicki’s false assumption that the exterior columns were made of A36 steel cancels out his other false claim that high numbers of core columns were severed, meaning his overall estimate of energy loss from column breakage
remains reasonably accurate.  Wierzbicki’s report, called Aircraft Impact Damage, can be found at this link. http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Cha...ft%20Impact.pdf

I don't agree 100% with everything said in the paper (or the video), but a lot of it is solid (and also interesting!).
David B. Benson
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2007, 05:03 AM)
Did you read NCSTAR1-6D?

Yes. Chapter 3 discusses the isolated exterior wall model, which did demonstrate some bowing in. The report goes on to explain how they 'wing it' in the so-called global model in Chapter 4.

Subsection 4.5.1 makes very clear what engineering assumptions were used and how the calculations were performed for WTC 1.

Also I have 6Gumpertz.pdf which is the slides for a talk he gave. Since Mr. Gumpertz actually conducted (most of) the studies in 1-6D, it is a useful read. Incidently, he has a few slides which seem not to have made their way into the 1-6D report.

=========================

lozenge124 --- Recall that NIST had ample visual evidence for the fires. This was used to adjust the fire model. The result was an unusal sort of boundary value problem. Also recall that the Purdue group essentially duplicated NIST's result regarding the aircraft impact.
David B. Benson
From the NIST web site I found

'WTC Part III Baseline Final.pdf'

which is another collection of slides for a talk. This particular one is of interest to me since it presents the safety factor for yielding and buckling used to compute the DCRs for core columns. The original design used 1.67, i.e., 5/3.

When I estimated the average DCR for the south half of WTC 1 at collapse initiation, I obtained values of 5/3 and 7/3 depending upon the estimation method. But at an average DCR of 5/3, all the safety factor is used up.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 10 2007, 02:41 PM)
Yes. Chapter 3 discusses the isolated exterior wall model, which did demonstrate some bowing in. The report goes on to explain how they 'wing it' in the so-called global model in Chapter 4.

Subsection 4.5.1 makes very clear what engineering assumptions were used and how the calculations were performed for WTC 1.

Also I have 6Gumpertz.pdf which is the slides for a talk he gave. Since Mr. Gumpertz actually conducted (most of) the studies in 1-6D, it is a useful read. Incidently, he has a few slides which seem not to have made their way into the 1-6D report.


Interesting DBB,

They did not even follow the approach set out at the beginning. Once the full floor model showed the force would be pushing-out and any trusses pulling-in soon disconnected, they must have goon to a backup (BS the public and hope nobody looks to close) plan. biggrin.gif

User posted image

Larger image

http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC_Conf_Sep13-15/session6/6Gumpertz.pdf

The method of approach shows the full floor system would be used to find the pull –in forces (underlined in red). The exterior wall subsystem was not going to be used to determine pull-in forces (underlined in green). wink.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2007, 07:38 AM)
We would like to hear your theory of how the towers collapsed along with a mathematical description that supports the theory.


I would have to go with Gordon's explanation of why one wall pulled in:

http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html

Your math works fine for a CD, using it for a gravity driven collapse is what I have a problem with.
Grumpy
reasonless

QUOTE
I would have to go with Gordon's explanation of why one wall pulled in:

http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html

Your math works fine for a CD, using it for a gravity driven collapse is what I have a problem with.


I ask everyone to read this paper. Not once does Gordon mention the aircraft, it's as if that was just too minor an occurance as to be ignorable in his "reasoned" analysis of the events of that day. He also only mentions the widespread, multifloor fires in order to dismiss them as being important to the events of the day. Since when can an explanation of the collapses ignore such central, important evidence while, at the same time, arguing for events that there is not the least bit of supporting evidence for??? Is Gordon sure he is talking about the same events as we all saw on 9/11??? Is this the kind of logic you are following???

No wonder everything you post is pure CRAP!!!

quickandthe dumb

Still seeing reflections of firetrucks??? Still having problems reading seismic traces???

Grumpy cool.gif
einsteen
Of course wtc7 is only a crush-up or a second stage of collapse with no mass ejection. A typical feature if you blow away a few columns.

I'm trying to find out how mass shedding in the wtc1,2 happens but my conclusion is that a gravity driven collapse cannot easily explain that. I was first thinking about a speed of ejection that is proportional with the speed of the falling mass, but since we assume inelastic collisions we assume mass sticks together. And an amount of energy needed to crush a story can only be spent once to crush that story and not to eject material.

Furthermore a realistic collapse model should be a crush-up and crush-down at the same time. If the block collides with the building a fraction w1 of the mass of the highest story of the building is lost and a fraction w2 of the lowest story of the block is lost. In differential equation form I think they become coupled DEs.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 11 2007, 07:58 AM)
Of course wtc7 is only a crush-up or a second stage of collapse with no mass ejection. A typical feature if you blow away a few columns.


I have to disagree . If people claimed they knew the building was going to collapse because of the bulge between the 10 and 13 floor. The building would have at least 10 stories of shedding. It would have more potential energy and much stronger (in proportion) base then the other WTC buildings. The other buildings shed more then the width of the building right after the start of collapse:

User posted image

All the CD's I have watched start in the basement or first floor if they want a pile simular to WTC7
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 11 2007, 07:46 AM)
reasonless



I ask everyone to read this paper. Not once does Gordon mention the aircraft, it's as if that was just too minor an occurance as to be ignorable in his "reasoned" analysis of the events of that day. He also only mentions the widespread, multifloor fires in order to dismiss them as being important to the events of the day. Since when can an explanation of the collapses ignore such central, important evidence while, at the same time, arguing for events that there is not the least bit of supporting evidence for??? Is Gordon sure he is talking about the same events as we all saw on 9/11??? Is this the kind of logic you are following???

No wonder everything you post is pure CRAP!!!

quickandthe dumb

Still seeing reflections of firetrucks??? Still having problems reading seismic traces???

Grumpy cool.gif

The difference between Gordon's collapse initiation and NIST is that Gordon's can be simulated and modeled (CD's normally pull in the core or center columns first) laugh.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 11 2007, 06:02 PM)
The difference between Gordon's collapse initiation and NIST is that Gordon's ...

fails to account for all the observations. For example, NIST makes clear somewhere in 1-5 or 1-5A that bowing in was observed on the east and west walls of WTC 1. dry.gif
roves shill
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 11 2007, 07:22 PM)
fails to account for all the observations. For example, NIST makes clear somewhere in 1-5 or 1-5A that bowing in was observed on the east and west walls of WTC 1. dry.gif

And the NIST report fails to account for the firemen and others observations of explosions, flashes.... If you are accusing people of 'cherry picking' DBB, you needn't look past the mirror.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (roves shill+Mar 11 2007, 08:32 PM)
And the NIST report fails to account for the firemen and others observations of explosions, flashes....

NIST interviewed many people. (I've not read the section about the interviews.)

I have read a goodly many of the interviews on Firehouse.com. We thoroughly discussed these towards the end of the first thread.

Briefly, transformer explosions have characteristic colors and go pop, pop, pop! Etc.

Further regarding Gordon Ross's paper, he clearly has not viewed the visual evidence for WTC 1 nor read NCSTAR1-6 and 1-6D. So he makes many errors regarding what was actually observed.

The most serious is to assume concentric axiality of the top block above the lower block. This eventually leads him to his nonsense about carefully rigged series of explosives --- right at the floors damaged by aircraft and subsequent fires. ohmy.gif

Makes as much sense as my claiming that it was GR with the G-ray in the Basement. laugh.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 11 2007, 01:32 PM)
Further regarding Gordon Ross's paper, he clearly has not viewed the visual evidence for WTC 1 nor read NCSTAR1-6 and 1-6D. So he makes many errors regarding what was actually observed.

The most serious is to assume concentric axiality of the top block above the lower block. This eventually leads him to his nonsense about carefully rigged series of explosives --- right at the floors damaged by aircraft and subsequent fires. ohmy.gif

Makes as much sense as my claiming that it was GR with the G-ray in the Basement. laugh.gif

Were does he assume concentric axiality of the top block or carefully rigged explosives in the collapse initiation (phase 1)?
David B. Benson
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 11 2007, 10:50 PM)
Were does he assume concentric axiality of the top block ... ?

That is in another paper in which Gordon Ross claims that the elastic properties of the steel would halt a natural progressive collapse. That assumes that everything lines up perfectly and even then the analysis seems to be energetically wrong.

So I can't be bothered to waste much time going thorough the details of blowing things apart when he still fails to consider the tilt and when he still goes on about the strong corners, when the videos of WTC 1 show that exactly one corner did not participate (for awhile) in the progressive collapse.
quicknthedead
Newly updated "7" Video {duration 16:24}:
WTC7 The Smoking Gun of 9/11 (updated) - This one has plenty.


The OCT is looking at its Achilles Heel, WTC7.

Have a good look.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ek5w_wt...-of-911-updated

einsteen
quicknthedead, the question is not if wtc7 was a CD (its collapse is physically totally consistent with a CD and totally inconsistent with the silly fire story), but the question is how did they do it.
Capracus
QUOTE (quicknthedead+Mar 12 2007, 05:33 AM)
Newly updated "7" Video {duration 16:24}:
WTC7 The Smoking Gun of 9/11 (updated) - This one has plenty.


The OCT is looking at its Achilles Heel, WTC7.

Have a good look.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ek5w_wt...-of-911-updated

Craig, you of all people should know that you can't always rely on your perception of a situation, or in your case a video, to divine its true meaning.
QUOTE (quicknthedead+ Jan 1 2007, 02:06 AM)

For once and for all, the Pavel Hlava video is based in fraud.
The story behind the video purports it was done by civilians in an SUV, but the reflection off the window in front of the vehicle proves it was an emergency fire vehicle.

Here below are 7 clips taken from the video that prove this.
link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9sM7N1Hz9k

In this latest CT infomercial, ex cop Craig Bartman is held up as some kind of expert witness because of what he may have heard and saw. What in his life experience would allow him insight as to the cause of those sounds, and the severity of the damage he witnessed? Would it not make more sense to give more credence to the statements of a fireman who has experience with, and knowledge of, structures and hazardous situations, someone like Captain Chris Boyle:
QUOTE
A little north of Vesey I said, well go down, let's see what's going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good.


Next comes the demolition expert Danny Jowenko, who believes from watching another CT infomercial, that WTC 7 was a CD. But it turns out that Danny Jowenko isn't quite the reliable expert that truthers would like him to be, because he also claims that WTC 1 & 2 could not be CDs.

Jowenko making his judgments on the WTC collapses, reminds me of another expert witness who made a diagnosis from a video.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A little north of Vesey I said, well go down, let's see what's going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good.


Next comes the demolition expert Danny Jowenko, who believes from watching another CT infomercial, that WTC 7 was a CD. But it turns out that Danny Jowenko isn't quite the reliable expert that truthers would like him to be, because he also claims that WTC 1 & 2 could not be CDs.

Jowenko making his judgments on the WTC collapses, reminds me of another expert witness who made a diagnosis from a video.

Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader, went to the floor late Thursday night for the second time in 12 hours to argue that Florida doctors had erred in saying Terri Schiavo is in a “persistent vegetative state.”

“I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office,” he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. “She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.”
What Dr. Frist didn't know at the time of his expert testimony, was that Terri Schiavo was completely blind.
Agent_X
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 12 2007, 12:30 PM)
But it turns out that Danny Jowenko isn't quite the reliable expert that truthers would like him to be, because he also claims that WTC 1 & 2 could not be CDs.


There's a reason he said that. This comment sums it up well:

QUOTE
The Dutch demo expert Danny Jowenko, and the students, like many many people including myself and nuff others now in the truth movement ALSO believed that the Towers were felled as officially described. It's called a mass brainwashing. Jowenko and the Students have an obvious naďve and honest bias, it's not their fault that things haven’t clicked with them yet. This bias was show up best in Jowenko who stated that the official explanation for the collapse of the towers was probably correct. But then was exposed to building 7 without knowing what building it was and stated the obvious about it being demoed. Although the interviewer did say, "this is WTC7" when he introduced it to Jowenko, Jowenko didn’t quite know this was on 9/11. I can guarantee that if the interviewer had been any more explicit then Jowenko's bias would have kicked in and it would have taken him much longer to have stated that WTC7 was demoed etc. I can also guarantee that he is probably now questioning and reassessing his analysis of the Towers after seeing building 7's collapse.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/3231
Grumpy
einsteen

QUOTE
quicknthedead, the question is not if wtc7 was a CD (its collapse is physically totally consistent with a CD and totally inconsistent with the silly fire story), but the question is how did they do it.


I expected better from you. You have always seemed at least willing to discuss the events of 9/11 intelligently(as opposed to most other CTers). But then you make a statement like above.

Once and for all, the experts on the scene(BATF, FBI, etc,) and the workers at ground zero(experts in the field of CD included) FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES ANYWHERE ON THE WTC COMPLEX, PERIOD. Bomb sniffing dogs got no hits in three weeks and were removed to make room for others. The FACT that not ONE explosively cut beam was found anywhere on site, etc, etc, etc at some point must be construed as evidence that EXPLOSIVES WERE NOT USED.

Ergo, WTC 7 was NOT a CD and we must look elsewhere for the cause of it's collapse.

Unfortunately for the CT crowd, there is a lot of supporting evidence for the "silly" fire story, and NO evidence supporting CD.

Grumpy cool.gif
einsteen
but if it really is no CD don't you think it is absolutely a mysterious collapse ? Sorry, I really can't get it, how did the broken columns look then ?
adoucette
QUOTE (lozenge124+Mar 10 2007, 03:54 PM)
You can find many of the references for those statements in Kevin Ryan's piece:
What is 9/11 Truth? - The First Steps

For example the 3" deflection is from NCSTAR 1-6 Figure 3-15 (p 52):
user posted image
(click for larger version, orange lines at 3" & 45 minutes added by me)
Why 45 minutes? WTC-2 was hit at 9:03am, collapsed at 9:59am, 56 minutes later. In NCSTAR 1-6, section 9.4.3 (p 322) and section 10.9.4 (p 338), NIST says “The fires in  WTC 2 reached the east side of the building more quickly, within 10 to 20 minutes, than the 50 to 60 minutes it took the fires in WTC 1 to reach the south side.” Subtract "10 to 20 minutes" from 56 minutes to get roughly 45 minutes (at worst). Again this is in Kevin Ryan's paper.

The computer model with 42inch vertical displacement. (NCSTAR 1-6, section 9.3 (p 297))
user posted image
(click for larger version)


Here is the section from Ryan's paper where he discusses the insulation removal.

I don't agree 100% with everything said in the paper (or the video), but a lot of it is solid (and also interesting!).

QUOTE (BS-ARTIST+)
But no, one had to be very patient and focused to find what evidence NIST provided for this crucial claim.  Their test for fireproofing loss, never inserted in the draft reports, involved  shooting a total of fifteen rounds from a shotgun at non-representative samples in a plywood box. Flat steel plates were used instead of column samples, and no floor deck samples were tested at all. In the end, they slid the results into a 12 page appendix to the final report.[9] 

Unfortunately, it’s not hard to see that these tests actually disproved their findings.  One reason is that there is no evidence that a Boeing 767 could transform into any number of shotgun blasts. Nearly 100,000 blasts would be needed based on NIST’s own damage estimates, and these would have to be directed in a very symmetrical fashion to strip the columns and floors from all sides.  However, it is much more likely that the aircraft debris was a distribution of sizes from very large chunks to a few smaller ones, and that it was directed asymmetrically.  Also, there is no indication that fireproofing was stripped from beneath the aluminum cladding on the exterior columns, but in subsequent steps of their story, NIST depends on this. 


laugh.gif the first tests were done on FULLY INSULATED trusses. The graph shown is of one of the tests where the top surface was UNEXPOSED to the heat.

Which of course was not similar to the conditions in the towers on the critical floors.

Typical posting of info OUT OF CONTEXT.

As to the other section

Actually the entire 274 page NIST NCSTAR 1-6A report is about SFRM, including a 12 page section devoted to the experiments that they ran on dislodging of the SFRM by impact.

Pay attention to Chapter 4 (As Applied Thickness of SFRM) where they show pictures of the towers prior to 9/11 so you can see the condition of the existing SFRM.

Pay particular attention to Chapter 5 where they measure the effect of GAPS in the insulation and find that even small gaps cause the EFFECTIVE thickness to decrease. So, no it does not require the loss of ALL the SFRM to compromise the steel, in fact not even MOST, but in actuallity just SOME causes a SIGNIFICANT loss in its insulation properties.

See Figure 5-5 which shows how a gap in insulation allows damaging (>500 C) levels of heat to spread in ALL DIRECTIONS for over twice the size of the gap.

Take a look at the pics, C-4 through C-12 (tests against Sheets and Rods) which allows one to extrapolate to the impact of material on COLUMNS (Sheets) and Trusses (Rods).

Take a look at the Summary findings.

Note that while the tests that were performed by NIST were in reality quite a bit LESS destructive then the actual impact, as NIST was essentially limited to a SINGLE INSTANT impact test, while in the REAL COLLISION the impacts CONTINUED over, in comparision to the NIST Test, a longer period of time, while all the elements in the impact area would have suffered significant G loading.

Arthur
Grumpy
einsteen

QUOTE
but if it really is no CD don't you think it is absolutely a mysterious collapse ? Sorry, I really can't get it, how did the broken columns look then ?


It was not a CD. Nor is it that mysterious. The building DID have large debris fall on it from the collapse of tower 1, The fallen debris DID start multi floor fires(probably fueled, in part by the THOUSANDS of gallons of sulfur laden deisel fuel), it DID burn furiously for over 7 1/2 hours, releasing clouds of sulfides and sulfates which, when combined at high temps with the moisture in the air form sulfuric acid and CAN erode steel rapidly, until the steel structure failed progressively over .18 seconds, of which we could only see the last 7 or so, unfortunately.

What is the mindset that you can believe that for which there is no evidence(and which is impossible to boot) IE CD, yet you dismiss that which all the evidence points to and ALL the relivant experts agree was the facts, IE the gravity driven collapse of a severely impact and fire damaged building????

There are no such things as thermite fairies, nor is there any explosives that could survive the fires in any of those buildings, go off and NOT LEAVE A SINGLE CLUE BEHIND!!!! CD theories are not just wrong, they are ridiculous and physically impossible(and that's not even getting to the paranoid conspiracy theories).

Let's try to confine ourselves to the realm of the possible here, OK???

Grumpy cool.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 7 2007, 09:24 PM)
NIST tries to model the pull in force of the trusses in the full floor model and guess what happens? THE WALLS BOW OUT IN ALL 4 CASES laugh.gif



So, what do these great engineers and scientist do when the wall bows the wrong way? They use photos to guess at the force necessary to match the distorted photo. THEY CAN NOT GET THE FLOOR MATH MODEL TO PULL THE WALL IN SO THEY JUST ASSUME IT DOES AND ESTIMATE THE FORCE FROM A PHOTO! biggrin.gif




NISTNCSTAR1-6D

So, the entire collapse initiation is based on estimates from a photo because the FEA floor model did not bow in and actually bowed out. WHAT A JOKE. laugh.gif

Can you imagine what the OCT'ers would do if a “truther” ran a FEA explosive simulation and it bowed the walls out so they decided to use a photo to prove demolition caused the walls to bow in initiating collapse? laugh.gif

Nope.

Once again NO Reasonwhy does NOT understand the PURPOSE of the ISOLATED models.

See NIST NCSTAR 1-6C 5.5.15 for an example of what is left out of the models and why that changes the behavior.

Making these WILD jumps of logic by looking at only the isolated models is just a FANCY way of LYING.

Something that NO Reasonwhy is known for.

Arthur
David B. Benson
Indeed! The observations of WTC 1 are consistent with a partial floor collapse along the south side a few minutes before collapse. That wasn't modeled either. huh.gif

It wasn't needed in order to understand that the bowing in of walls led to buckling failure. rolleyes.gif
FactCheck
WTC 7 DID NOT collapse in 7 seconds. Proof here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLHwvwJCmgk
roves shill
QUOTE (FactCheck+Mar 12 2007, 11:35 PM)
WTC 7 DID NOT collapse in 7 seconds. Proof here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLHwvwJCmgk

Here you go CSpam errrrrrrrrrrrr....Fastcheck.

Number #7
reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 12 2007, 08:22 AM)


laugh.gif the first tests were done on FULLY INSULATED trusses. The graph shown is of one of the tests where the top surface was UNEXPOSED to the heat.

Which of course was not similar to the conditions in the towers on the critical floors.

Typical posting of info OUT OF CONTEXT.

As to the other section

Actually the entire 274 page NIST NCSTAR 1-6A report is about SFRM, including a 12 page section devoted to the experiments that they ran on dislodging of the SFRM by impact.

Pay attention to Chapter 4 (As Applied Thickness of SFRM) where they show pictures of the towers prior to 9/11 so you can see the condition of the existing SFRM.

Pay particular attention to Chapter 5 where they measure the effect of GAPS in the insulation and find that even small gaps cause the EFFECTIVE thickness to decrease. So, no it does not require the loss of ALL the SFRM to compromise the steel, in fact not even MOST, but in actuallity just SOME causes a SIGNIFICANT loss in its insulation properties.

See Figure 5-5 which shows how a gap in insulation allows damaging (>500 C) levels of heat to spread in ALL DIRECTIONS for over twice the size of the gap.

Take a look at the pics, C-4 through C-12 (tests against Sheets and Rods) which allows one to extrapolate to the impact of material on COLUMNS (Sheets) and Trusses (Rods).

Take a look at the Summary findings.

Note that while the tests that were performed by NIST were in reality quite a bit LESS destructive then the actual impact, as NIST was essentially limited to a SINGLE INSTANT impact test, while in the REAL COLLISION the impacts CONTINUED over, in comparision to the NIST Test, a longer period of time, while all the elements in the impact area would have suffered significant G loading.

Arthur

Please explain what the G loading on insulation will do?

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Talk about desperate.
adoucette
You are clearly the one that is DESPERATE. The NIST report has been out nearly 2 years and you have YET to find a single peer reviewed paper that disputes any of its key findings.

Which is why you apparently can only pick at the ISOLATED models and use these findings OUT OF CONTEXT to the GLOBAL MODELs in your pathetic attempt to detract from the most excellent job NIST did in figuring out the most probable collapse sequence.




When the structure is hit by a plane going 500 mph it causes a rapid displacement of the relatively rigid structure. The acceleration of the structure causes an apparent gravitational force on the sprayed on SFRM. The structure would then reverse direction, causing a loading in the opposite direction.

The net effect is a lot of SFRM would likely get shaken off by the violent impact forces even if it wasn't hit by flying debris.

NIST however left this out of their models as they were being conservative.

Arthur
reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 12 2007, 02:22 PM)
Nope.

Once again NO Reasonwhy does NOT understand the PURPOSE of the ISOLATED models.

See NIST NCSTAR 1-6C 5.5.15 for an example of what is left out of the models and why that changes the behavior.

Making these WILD jumps of logic by looking at only the isolated models is just a FANCY way of LYING.

Something that NO Reasonwhy is known for.

Arthur

Oh really , misinformation specialist, show one model that supports the trusses pulling the wall in besides the isolated wall that they applied force to make it look like the distorted picture?
adoucette
So now you are resorting to claiming the many pictures of the bowed in columns are DISTORTED.

Yup, I figured that NO Reasonwhy would soon get as DESPERATE as our old pal QuickntheDead.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur
reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 12 2007, 08:13 PM)
So now you are resorting to claiming the many pictures of the bowed in columns are DISTORTED.

Yup, I figured that NO Reasonwhy would soon get as DESPERATE as our old pal QuickntheDead.


Arthur

I'm desperate?

I will give you the bowed in columns from distorted pictures (smoke ,one angle).It is not worth arguing about.

Show were NIST validates or simulated that the trusses pulled the walls in initiating collapse?

The simulations stop before global collapse ensued.

Now, I find out the FEA analysis did not even support collapse initiation (pulling in the walls).

It showed the walls bowing out.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
quicknthedead
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 12 2007, 09:13 PM)
So now you are resorting to claiming the many pictures of the bowed in columns are DISTORTED.

Yup, I figured that NO Reasonwhy would soon get as DESPERATE as our old pal QuickntheDead.

laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Arthur

Why don't you try to display some class.

You like to end your posts much of the time with scorn and insult, like your recent baloney of late, "ES&D".

However, it is unfortunate you can not be like metamars, like when he retorted to this recent garbage sign-off of yours with his show of real class when he wrote, "Eat Truth And Live."

And 9/11 was an inside job.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 12 2007, 03:25 PM)
Indeed! The observations of WTC 1 are consistent with a partial floor collapse along the south side a few minutes before collapse. That wasn't modeled either.  huh.gif

It wasn't needed in order to understand that the bowing in of walls led to buckling failure.  rolleyes.gif

DBB,

It was modeled and simulated. It just did not match observations. wink.gif

So what does NIST do? biggrin.gif

Added lateral forces to the isolated model to match observations (the mythical forces). laugh.gif
Capracus
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 13 2007, 04:38 AM)
I'm desperate? I will give you the bowed in columns from distorted pictures (smoke ,one angle).It is not worth arguing about.

reasonwhy, now that you have conceded that 6 minutes before the collapse, inward bowing did occur in the south wall of WTC 1, how do explain it?
einsteen
Grumpy,

There were a few localized fires, the building wasn’t completely on fire, they could place them in the basement for example. Further the collapse was spontaneously and very symmetrically, a fire process weakening the building should slowly let the building die.
Wtc7 has no initial collapsing mass like the twin towers; here you even cannot assume that there is an initial momentum. And could evaporated steel be explained by a diesel fire? If you feed a building with diesel from bottom to roof and put it on fire it will die but not in that way. And as long as there is no NIST report and FEMA talks about the low probability of occurrence then there are enough reasons to think that there is something very wrong, because statistically that doesn’t make sense.

Ps. Jowenko has also studied the construction of the building and not only seen video material. After the first interview he got dozens of documents compiled by JREF’ers etc and still insists. Further there are not much CD experts who want to talk about it.
Grumpy
einsteen

QUOTE
There were a few localized fires, the building wasn’t completely on fire,


There were whole floors of fire, getting worse as the time went by. Read the officials statements about flames being seen from over twenty floor just before collapse. That in no way is "isolated fires"

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There were a few localized fires, the building wasn’t completely on fire,


There were whole floors of fire, getting worse as the time went by. Read the officials statements about flames being seen from over twenty floor just before collapse. That in no way is "isolated fires"

Further the collapse was spontaneously and very symmetrically,


The only symetrical part was the north curtain wall, which fell after the building had been falling apart for over 18 seconds(according to seismic evidence). The east penthouse could not have collapsed into the building if the underlying structure had still been there. This indicates that the southern face of that building was already gone by that time.

QUOTE
a fire process weakening the building should slowly let the building die


Is 7 1/2 hours not slow enough for you??? Does the fire department pulling their crews from the danger zone around that building at ~2:00 PM not indicate to you that they were aware of the possibility of the building falling???

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
a fire process weakening the building should slowly let the building die


Is 7 1/2 hours not slow enough for you??? Does the fire department pulling their crews from the danger zone around that building at ~2:00 PM not indicate to you that they were aware of the possibility of the building falling???

Wtc7 has no initial collapsing mass like the twin towers; here you even cannot assume that there is an initial momentum.


And WTC 7 did not fail like the twin towers did, it failed for other reasons and by other means. What it did not fail from is deliberate explosive demolition.

QUOTE
And could evaporated steel be explained by a diesel fire?


Yes. Erosion in oil fed fires is not an unknown phenomina, especially with high sulfur fuels.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And could evaporated steel be explained by a diesel fire?


Yes. Erosion in oil fed fires is not an unknown phenomina, especially with high sulfur fuels.

And as long as there is no NIST report and FEMA talks about the low probability of occurrence then there are enough reasons to think that there is something very wrong, because statistically that doesn’t make sense.


NIST has always been known for putting out reports when they are as accurate as they can be, not when we would like to see them. I can wait on their report because I do not have an agenda to try to tie the events of 9/11 to some paranoid conspiracy theories. I would rather wait for them to get it as right as they can, rather than produce shoddy work right now.

QUOTE
Jowenko...


Jowenko does not agree with your contentions, despite his initial responses. Once he admitted his initial responses were faulty, you should stop trying to use them in attempts to support your delusions, that is dishonest.

Grumpy cool.gif
einsteen
You think he now believes the fire story ? No way, give him a call, he is very willing to answer. And what do you expect from the report that comes ? Will it be another collapse initiation report ? rolleyes.gif
Grumpy
einsteen

QUOTE
You think he now believes the fire story ? No way, give him a call, he is very willing to answer. And what do you expect from the report that comes ? Will it be another collapse initiation report ? 


He says he no longer thinks it was a deliberate CD.

As to the report, I expect it to be based on the facts and supported by the science. There is ample cause for the collapse of that building without impossible scenarios involving nefarious characters, there is no supporting evidence for the use of explosives no matter who's words are taken out of context or express their opinions or what they think they saw or heard.

It really is this simple...

Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down(go boom, my neice would add).

And if those buildings fall on other buildings(as happened repeatedly that day), those buildings go boom too.

All the rest is just details of that process.

Grumpy cool.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 13 2007, 06:33 AM)
It was modeled and simulated.

Wrong yet once again. The sudden partial floor collapse about 2 minutes prior to the collapse of WTC 1 was not modeled. NCSTAR1-5D has text specifically saying so.

What was modeled was the disconnection of about a dozen trusses over a period of about 20 minutes. This did not lead to the sudden expulsion of smoke that is presumably due to a partial floor collapse along the south wall.
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