Has the scientific community been empowered by any of us, citizens of the world, to endanger all life forms on Earth in order to satisfy its own intellectual pride? Pls. see http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/avoiddarkscience/.
Thank you.
ekhalom obviously hasn't taken that first step.
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 04:12 PM)
Has the scientific community been empowered by any of us, citizens of the world, to endanger all life forms on Earth in order to satisfy its own intellectual pride? Pls. see http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/avoiddarkscience/.
Thank you.
ekhalom
Well it definitely is an eye opener, and I fear that it may contain truth.
Being part of such project like that of Cern,The world's largest particle physics laboratory can blind one from wanting to look at both sides.
I noticed a link to Harold Aspden
Harold Aspden
If you look at his theory, it seems to make sense.
I would like to talk to him about my research, which may help him.
However I see no contact information on his page.
Thanks for bringing this up.
Is anyone not directly related to Cern's Collider experiment seriously looking out for what may be considered dangers?
If I knew more about this, I may not be so afraid of what could happen.
However not knowing the risks or the long term good or bad seems to come later for us.
Thank you.
ekhalom
Well it definitely is an eye opener, and I fear that it may contain truth.
Being part of such project like that of Cern,The world's largest particle physics laboratory can blind one from wanting to look at both sides.
I noticed a link to Harold Aspden
Harold Aspden
If you look at his theory, it seems to make sense.
I would like to talk to him about my research, which may help him.
However I see no contact information on his page.
Thanks for bringing this up.
Is anyone not directly related to Cern's Collider experiment seriously looking out for what may be considered dangers?
If I knew more about this, I may not be so afraid of what could happen.
However not knowing the risks or the long term good or bad seems to come later for us.
Hey man, this time we won't be able to blame it on the Vogons will we. As there are no major highway needed to get built, as i know of at least.
And he's dead, ain't he :) You know, that guy, the author... Sneaked out just when we needed him.
How the hell will i ever be able to explain this to my grandchildren???
Awwh.
And he's dead, ain't he :) You know, that guy, the author... Sneaked out just when we needed him.
How the hell will i ever be able to explain this to my grandchildren???
Awwh.
Here's many reasons, why to build the accelerators in the free space. You'll get the absolute rest (no vibrations), the perfect vacuum, low temperature for cooling of superconductors, giant space for construction of accelerator and particle detectors of any size. Whole facility can be later used for asteroids destroying or converting them into energy source.
Furthermore, we simply needn't to carry out such expensive - and potentially dangerous - experiments at this time at all, because we have a theories, which should be understood at first and it works well, being the best confirmation itself. It means, there is no need to carry out such experiments, even from scientific point of view, as we have a much better working theories, than experiments, at this moment. And no high energy experiment should be planned before understanding, why and how exactly these theory are working.
The risk of terrestrial experiment is simply too hight. No wonder, the US Government has stopped its Superconducting Super Collider Project in 1993. We have proverb here, in Czech "Measure twice, cut once". The European Union government is socialistic with all consequences, including the voluntarism and lack of liability for mankind.
Furthermore, we simply needn't to carry out such expensive - and potentially dangerous - experiments at this time at all, because we have a theories, which should be understood at first and it works well, being the best confirmation itself. It means, there is no need to carry out such experiments, even from scientific point of view, as we have a much better working theories, than experiments, at this moment. And no high energy experiment should be planned before understanding, why and how exactly these theory are working.
The risk of terrestrial experiment is simply too hight. No wonder, the US Government has stopped its Superconducting Super Collider Project in 1993. We have proverb here, in Czech "Measure twice, cut once". The European Union government is socialistic with all consequences, including the voluntarism and lack of liability for mankind.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
in order to satisfy its own intellectual pride?
As usual, the nuts mistake 'intellectual curiosity' with 'intellectual pride'. They (or rather, we) are interested in the behaviour of the universe.
As usual, the nuts mistake 'intellectual curiosity' with 'intellectual pride'. They (or rather, we) are interested in the behaviour of the universe.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
Here's many reasons, why to build the accelerators in the free space.
People whine about the €5 billion spent on the new LHC which, by the way, is <1% of the cost of the war on Iraq and just 5 days profit for a single oil company! It's taken hundreds of billions of dollars and an international effort over more than decade to built the relatively small international space station. It's only a few hundred metres in size (including huge solar arrays) and is made of super light materials. The cost of building the LHC, or worse, the ILC, in space would be trillions of dollars. The LHC is 27km in length and weighs millions of tons. The ILC is planned to be hundreds of kilometres in size and orders of magnitude more massive.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
You'll get the absolute rest (no vibrations)
No, you have the issue of even the tiniest residual motion from construction or due to gravitational differential across the length of the accelerator (particularly for something like the ILC) causing it to bend and snap. Being built on the ground, the accelerator doesn't have that problem.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
the perfect vacuum
The LHC is working at a pressure 0.000001 times that of the 'vacuum' you find on the Moon. Space is actually too gaseous for the experiments. You'd have to build a vacuum seal anyway, though it would be easier to maintain.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
low temperature for cooling of superconductors
Wrong again. Space is 2.7K, ignoring the fact anything in direct sunlight heats up like a Christmas ham. The LHC runs at 1.7K, because at that temperature liquid helium goes super fluidic and it's more efficent at cooling at such a phase. You'd need cooling equipment and you'd need it to be very very good because you can't just put the radiators outside the accelerator, the Sun would heat them up and break them. At CERN they just pump cold air through them, air being in plentiful apply in Geneva. In space, you don't have such a resource and even if you did, the pumping of what is effectively exhaust gas would cause the accelerator to... accelerate.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
giant space for construction of accelerator and particle detectors of any size
You completely ignore the HUGE logistics and cost of putting even a few hundred kilos of material into orbit.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
Whole facility can be later used for asteroids destroying or converting them into energy source
Nonsense. The LHC works with a total beam energy of a few hundred megawatts. Firstly, such energy supplies do not exist in space, even using VAST solar arrays (they'd need to be hundreds of kilometres in size). You'd have to put a working nuclear reactor in space and then we'd get people like you and ekhalom whining about scientists putting nukes in orbit. You'd either then demand we stop spending the entire GDP of the US on a vast collider or we move it further from the Earth (the ISS is less than 500km from the Earth's surface, that's less than 10% the radius of the Earth). Moving 100 million tons (at least!) of material another 1000km from the Earth would sky rocket the resources required.
The beam energy of the LHC would not be able to stop a large asteroid. They have billions of gigajoules of energy (ELE asteroids would have masses of millions of tons too!). Hitting them with a 1GW beam of electrons 1fm in diameter would be like trying to stop a rhino by blowing through a straw at it.
Good god, this is exactly what I was thinking.
The beam energy of the LHC would not be able to stop a large asteroid. They have billions of gigajoules of energy (ELE asteroids would have masses of millions of tons too!). Hitting them with a 1GW beam of electrons 1fm in diameter would be like trying to stop a rhino by blowing through a straw at it.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 05:12 PM)
Currently, no accelerator research is really necessary for better understanding of matter
Absolute bull****. You cannot understand nature without first looking at it's behaviour.
Once again, despite having been corrected on all these issues before, Zephir repeats things he knows to be a lie or just plain ignorant because he is so hellbent on trying to rubbish mainstream physics, he knowingly and willfully ignores evidence, logic and the plain simple logistics of what he proposes. Why spend €5 billion at CERN over 15 years when you can spend €1 quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000, or 200,000 times the current LHC cost) building the same thing 100km above the Earth, where it's only viable power source would be a nuclear reactor, and the engineering difficulties are 100 times worse?
Yeah, that's a bright idea you idiot.
Once again, despite having been corrected on all these issues before, Zephir repeats things he knows to be a lie or just plain ignorant because he is so hellbent on trying to rubbish mainstream physics, he knowingly and willfully ignores evidence, logic and the plain simple logistics of what he proposes. Why spend €5 billion at CERN over 15 years when you can spend €1 quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000, or 200,000 times the current LHC cost) building the same thing 100km above the Earth, where it's only viable power source would be a nuclear reactor, and the engineering difficulties are 100 times worse?
Yeah, that's a bright idea you idiot.
The guys that are working on these experiments are not as oblivious to the dangers as some on this forum are. Give the Scientific community some credit for being scientists and not just grant mongers. (Physics is not the most high paying job in the world , either, so they're certainly not in it for the money.)
We need to progress our understanding of the universe as far as possible, IMHO. Let's not demonize that community, they've done nothing to deserve it except make all our lives better.
Peace,
Ron
We need to progress our understanding of the universe as far as possible, IMHO. Let's not demonize that community, they've done nothing to deserve it except make all our lives better.
Peace,
Ron
I read the link, and I'm sure that the fears in that petition are based on a faulty understanding of the physics involved in these experiments.
First of all, we don't even know if there's a 1 in 50 million chance such a catastrophic event at the LHC might occur. That is only the upper limit placed on that probability, which means it is likely lower than that figure, perhaps even zero. Plus, we have ultra high-energy cosmic rays hitting the upper atmosphere at those energies, so we're already running the risk of that happening anyway. We wouldn't be doing anything that isn't occurring in nature already.
As for ITER, there's really no risk other than the irradiation of the reactor, which is something that's happening at nuclear power plants in operation today. There is absolutely no risk of a nuclear explosion at ITER, unless you detonate a nuclear weapon in the reactor. If the magnetic fields fail and the plasma touches the wall of the reactor, the heat loss due to the contact with the reactor wall would cool the plasma below the temperature needed to sustain the reaction. It really takes a lot to maintain fusion reactor and if anything goes wrong, the reactions will stop.
First of all, we don't even know if there's a 1 in 50 million chance such a catastrophic event at the LHC might occur. That is only the upper limit placed on that probability, which means it is likely lower than that figure, perhaps even zero. Plus, we have ultra high-energy cosmic rays hitting the upper atmosphere at those energies, so we're already running the risk of that happening anyway. We wouldn't be doing anything that isn't occurring in nature already.
As for ITER, there's really no risk other than the irradiation of the reactor, which is something that's happening at nuclear power plants in operation today. There is absolutely no risk of a nuclear explosion at ITER, unless you detonate a nuclear weapon in the reactor. If the magnetic fields fail and the plasma touches the wall of the reactor, the heat loss due to the contact with the reactor wall would cool the plasma below the temperature needed to sustain the reaction. It really takes a lot to maintain fusion reactor and if anything goes wrong, the reactions will stop.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 11:12 AM)
Has the scientific community been empowered by any of us, citizens of the world, to endanger all life forms on Earth in order to satisfy its own intellectual pride?
Have you stopped beating your wife, yet?
Good God, you should be a pollster, with a paycheck for that jewel you just dropped among us. Or a solicitor...
Have you stopped beating your wife, yet?
Good God, you should be a pollster, with a paycheck for that jewel you just dropped among us. Or a solicitor...
QUOTE
Have you stopped beating your wife, yet?
Good god, this is exactly what I was thinking.
QUOTE (gski+Sep 22 2007, 05:38 PM)
Good god, this is exactly what I was thinking.
Gee, ski, gedanke!
Good to see y'!
Gee, ski, gedanke!
Good to see y'!QUOTE (Ron+Sep 22 2007, 07:24 PM)
The guys that are working on these experiments are not as oblivious to the dangers as some on this forum are. Give the Scientific community some credit for being scientists and not just grant mongers. (Physics is not the most high paying job in the world , either, so they're certainly not in it for the money.)
We need to progress our understanding of the universe as far as possible, IMHO. Let's not demonize that community, they've done nothing to deserve it except make all our lives better.
Peace,
Ron
Is the risk of putting something in wrong more than the actual catastrophic event?
Seems like you may be saying someone is more likely to brake a finger!
If all goes well how do you see the finding of the God particle making the major change in science?
Just curious
We need to progress our understanding of the universe as far as possible, IMHO. Let's not demonize that community, they've done nothing to deserve it except make all our lives better.
Peace,
Ron
Is the risk of putting something in wrong more than the actual catastrophic event?
Seems like you may be saying someone is more likely to brake a finger!
If all goes well how do you see the finding of the God particle making the major change in science?
Just curious
Could you have anticipated the extent that Faraday's and Einstein's experiments would have changed the world.
I hope your kerosene lamp doesn't run out soon.
Peace,
Ron
I hope your kerosene lamp doesn't run out soon.
Peace,
Ron
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 22 2007, 05:16 PM)
ekhalom obviously hasn't taken that first step.
Perhaps you're right; not in the way you may think though.
I noticed a link to Harold Aspden
Harold Aspden
If you look at his theory, it seems to make sense.
I would like to talk to him about my research, which may help him.
However I see no contact information on his page.
I am not personally acquainted with Dr. Aspden; i am just aware of his pioneering work. You may find his contact at this link (it was the previous front page of his main web site, updated during this year): http://www.aspden.org/2006index.htm.
Thanks for bringing this up.
You're welcome; i truly hope this simple message can allow some re-thinking...
Perhaps you're right; not in the way you may think though.
QUOTE (rethinker+Sep 22 2007, 05:21 PM)
I noticed a link to Harold Aspden
Harold Aspden
If you look at his theory, it seems to make sense.
I would like to talk to him about my research, which may help him.
However I see no contact information on his page.
I am not personally acquainted with Dr. Aspden; i am just aware of his pioneering work. You may find his contact at this link (it was the previous front page of his main web site, updated during this year): http://www.aspden.org/2006index.htm.
QUOTE (rethinker+Sep 22 2007, 05:21 PM)
Thanks for bringing this up.
You're welcome; i truly hope this simple message can allow some re-thinking...
QUOTE (Zephir1+Sep 22 2007, 06:31 PM)
The risk of terrestrial experiment is simply too hight.
Thank you for your vote of support; and best wishes unto all your efforts in the demanding quest of building a new Aether theory.
Thank you for your vote of support; and best wishes unto all your efforts in the demanding quest of building a new Aether theory.
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Sep 22 2007, 06:58 PM)
As usual, the nuts mistake 'intellectual curiosity' with 'intellectual pride'. They (or rather, we) are interested in the behaviour of the universe.
Curiosity killed the cat: there is a thin border, or an unseen hole, toward collective insanity and you ('we', as member of the mentioned scientific community in the petition) may easily step into it when blinded by pride derived from intellectual arrogance (The greater the intellect, the greater the danger of its misuse.), instead of guided by the inner light we all possess in our rightful quest for knowledge and understanding of ourselves and the universe in which we dwell. As as great Mystic once stated:
« In our civilization the chasm that stretches between mind and heart yawns deep and wide and, as the mind flies on from discovery to discovery in the realms of science, the gulf becomes ever deeper and wider and the heart is left further and further behind. (...) Only when that co-operation is attained and perfected will man attain the higher, truer understanding of himself and of the world of which he is a part; only that can give him a broad mind and a great heart. »
It looks like all you have been interested all this time is recognition should new things be found, not what new understanding can contribute to alleviate the suffering mankind (ourselves).
Curiosity killed the cat: there is a thin border, or an unseen hole, toward collective insanity and you ('we', as member of the mentioned scientific community in the petition) may easily step into it when blinded by pride derived from intellectual arrogance (The greater the intellect, the greater the danger of its misuse.), instead of guided by the inner light we all possess in our rightful quest for knowledge and understanding of ourselves and the universe in which we dwell. As as great Mystic once stated:
« In our civilization the chasm that stretches between mind and heart yawns deep and wide and, as the mind flies on from discovery to discovery in the realms of science, the gulf becomes ever deeper and wider and the heart is left further and further behind. (...) Only when that co-operation is attained and perfected will man attain the higher, truer understanding of himself and of the world of which he is a part; only that can give him a broad mind and a great heart. »
It looks like all you have been interested all this time is recognition should new things be found, not what new understanding can contribute to alleviate the suffering mankind (ourselves).
QUOTE (Ron+Sep 22 2007, 07:24 PM)
The guys that are working on these experiments are not as oblivious to the dangers as some on this forum are. Give the Scientific community some credit for being scientists and not just grant mongers.
Let us hope so; however what one sees does not correspond to the description of 'conscious awareness' you try to present.
(Physics is not the most high paying job in the world , either, so they're certainly not in it for the money.)
Fair.
We need to progress our understanding of the universe as far as possible, IMHO. Let's not demonize that community, they've done nothing to deserve it except make all our lives better.
Indeed we need but for what purpose? What's the use we are going to give to that understanding? No one is questioning Science, but a rotten community holding it, and one can think of several individuals of Science that would give you a different perspective, based on their own first hand experience. As an e.g.:
« The theory is so rigidly held that young scientists dare not openly express their views.
I was warned that if I persisted (in refuting Einstein's theory) I was likely to spoil my career prospects.
The general public is misled into believing that science is a mysterious subject which can be understood by only a few exceptionally gifted mathematicians.
Students are told that the theory must be accepted although they cannot expect to understand it. They are encouraged right at the beginning of their careers to forsake science in favour of dogma.
...the continued acceptance and teaching of relativity hinders the development of a rational extension of electromagnetic theory. »
-- Louis Essen (1908-1997) in 'Relativity and Time Signals'
Let us hope so; however what one sees does not correspond to the description of 'conscious awareness' you try to present.
QUOTE (Ron+Sep 22 2007, 07:24 PM)
(Physics is not the most high paying job in the world , either, so they're certainly not in it for the money.)
Fair.
QUOTE (Ron+Sep 22 2007, 07:24 PM)
We need to progress our understanding of the universe as far as possible, IMHO. Let's not demonize that community, they've done nothing to deserve it except make all our lives better.
Indeed we need but for what purpose? What's the use we are going to give to that understanding? No one is questioning Science, but a rotten community holding it, and one can think of several individuals of Science that would give you a different perspective, based on their own first hand experience. As an e.g.:
« The theory is so rigidly held that young scientists dare not openly express their views.
I was warned that if I persisted (in refuting Einstein's theory) I was likely to spoil my career prospects.
The general public is misled into believing that science is a mysterious subject which can be understood by only a few exceptionally gifted mathematicians.
Students are told that the theory must be accepted although they cannot expect to understand it. They are encouraged right at the beginning of their careers to forsake science in favour of dogma.
...the continued acceptance and teaching of relativity hinders the development of a rational extension of electromagnetic theory. »
-- Louis Essen (1908-1997) in 'Relativity and Time Signals'
QUOTE (Justin+Sep 22 2007, 07:28 PM)
I read the link, and I'm sure that the fears in that petition are based on a faulty understanding of the physics involved in these experiments.
Well, if i were you (and do not intend to be) i wouldn't be so sure about on which side the "faulty understanding" is.
Well, if i were you (and do not intend to be) i wouldn't be so sure about on which side the "faulty understanding" is.
QUOTE (Sapo+Sep 22 2007, 10:00 PM)
Have you stopped beating your wife, yet?
Good God, you should be a pollster, with a paycheck for that jewel you just dropped among us. Or a solicitor...
Same comment to both: Grow up.
___
Not a chance, not if I end up a stuffy git, too.
Good God, you should be a pollster, with a paycheck for that jewel you just dropped among us. Or a solicitor...
QUOTE (gski+Sep 22 2007, 10:38 PM)
Good god, this is exactly what I was thinking.
Same comment to both: Grow up!
___
Thank you for your attention.
Same comment to both: Grow up!
___
Thank you for your attention.
Not more fear mongering? I thought this was supposed to be a physics forum?
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 22 2007, 07:39 PM)
Same comment to both: Grow up.
___
Not a chance, not if I end up a stuffy git, too.
QUOTE (ekhalom+Sep 23 2007, 01:39 AM)
It looks like all you have been interested all this time is recognition should new things be found, not what new understanding can contribute to alleviate the suffering mankind (ourselves).
Yes, you're right. Scientists are what is wrong with the human race, intellectual curiosity and development. The world's problems are nothing to do with human greed, mistrust and jealousy, no it's the fault of intellectual curiosity.
Yes, you're right. Scientists are what is wrong with the human race, intellectual curiosity and development. The world's problems are nothing to do with human greed, mistrust and jealousy, no it's the fault of intellectual curiosity.
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Sep 23 2007, 10:55 AM)
Yes, you're right. Scientists are what is wrong with the human race, intellectual curiosity and development.
Hi dear editor AlphaNumeric, there is no need for irony. It is not Science or scientific advancement that is being questioned through this simple Petition, but a rotten scientific community, i.e. in Physics field (although there are a few other fields undergoing similar process). A community totally dependent on mathematical abstractions with little or no connection to reality (and i am confident these last years experiments, observations and discoveries have been exposing the wild imagination of current theories and theorists) and blinded by its unquestionable adherence to an ideology called materialism, which evidence from ongoing research on several fields (from laboratories to hospitals; there are available peer-reviewed conclusions on this subject) shows to be false.
Hi dear editor AlphaNumeric, there is no need for irony. It is not Science or scientific advancement that is being questioned through this simple Petition, but a rotten scientific community, i.e. in Physics field (although there are a few other fields undergoing similar process). A community totally dependent on mathematical abstractions with little or no connection to reality (and i am confident these last years experiments, observations and discoveries have been exposing the wild imagination of current theories and theorists) and blinded by its unquestionable adherence to an ideology called materialism, which evidence from ongoing research on several fields (from laboratories to hospitals; there are available peer-reviewed conclusions on this subject) shows to be false.
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Sep 23 2007, 10:55 AM)
The world's problems are nothing to do with human greed, mistrust and jealousy, no it's the fault of intellectual curiosity.
Irony apart, it is interesting your reference to the "world's problems" as there is an 80 years old individual of Science, already mentioned at this thread, whose latest online intervention (at his web site) was indeed on SOLVING THE WORLD'S GREATEST PROBLEMS; obviously from the Physics field perspective: but can anyone here imagine how the change of paradigm in this core field of Science will indeed cause a vast change to the whole wide world?
Please allow now to definitely leave editions here with a few lines toward an inner reflexion:
Truly hope this helps.
Thank you for all your attention.
Irony apart, it is interesting your reference to the "world's problems" as there is an 80 years old individual of Science, already mentioned at this thread, whose latest online intervention (at his web site) was indeed on SOLVING THE WORLD'S GREATEST PROBLEMS; obviously from the Physics field perspective: but can anyone here imagine how the change of paradigm in this core field of Science will indeed cause a vast change to the whole wide world?
Please allow now to definitely leave editions here with a few lines toward an inner reflexion:
QUOTE
It was a detriment to the world when Religion shackled Science. IGNORANCE and SUPERSTITION caused untold woe. Nevertheless man cherished a lofty spiritual ideal then; he hoped for a higher and better life. It is indefinitely more disastrous that Science is killing Religion, for now even HOPE, the only gift of the gods left in Pandora's box, may vanish before MATERIALISM and AGNOSTICISM.
Such a state cannot continue. Reaction must set in. If it does not, anarchy will rend the cosmos. To avert such a calamity RELIGION, SCIENCE, and ART must reunite in a higher expression of the GOOD, the TRUE, and the BEAUTIFUL than obtained before the separation.
Coming events cast their shadows before and when the Great Leaders of humanity saw the tendency toward ultra-materialism which is now rampant in the Western World, they took certain steps to counteract and transmute it at the auspicious time. They did not wish to kill the budding Science as the latter had strangled Religion, for they saw the ultimate good which will result when an advanced Science has again become a co-worker with Religion.
A spiritual Religion, however, cannot blend with materialistic Science any more than oil can mix with water. Therefore steps were taken to spiritualize Science and make Religion scientific.
Such a state cannot continue. Reaction must set in. If it does not, anarchy will rend the cosmos. To avert such a calamity RELIGION, SCIENCE, and ART must reunite in a higher expression of the GOOD, the TRUE, and the BEAUTIFUL than obtained before the separation.
Coming events cast their shadows before and when the Great Leaders of humanity saw the tendency toward ultra-materialism which is now rampant in the Western World, they took certain steps to counteract and transmute it at the auspicious time. They did not wish to kill the budding Science as the latter had strangled Religion, for they saw the ultimate good which will result when an advanced Science has again become a co-worker with Religion.
A spiritual Religion, however, cannot blend with materialistic Science any more than oil can mix with water. Therefore steps were taken to spiritualize Science and make Religion scientific.
Truly hope this helps.
Thank you for all your attention.
Actually since the universe came from a singularity and is therefore largely entangled, if the LHC breaks a string it will create a WAD (Weapon of Absolute Destruction) causing all of matter to unravel at the subatomic scale.
What the public does not know is these scientists are actually aliens in disguise seeking to consume energy for sustenance. Anyone who has read Arthur C. Clark's novel Childhood's End will know what I am talking about.
But considering the world will end in 2012, it really doesn't matter after all, now does it?
What the public does not know is these scientists are actually aliens in disguise seeking to consume energy for sustenance. Anyone who has read Arthur C. Clark's novel Childhood's End will know what I am talking about.
But considering the world will end in 2012, it really doesn't matter after all, now does it?
Science provides the power, good lord, to actually use our brains. What a dangerous idea. The powers that be know by instinct that when we start asking questions we may actually come to conclusions that threaten them. Usually it has something to do with up-setting the societal structure. We offer arguments, and in the spirit of peaceful discussion it makes those who think they and they alone have a hot line to God uncomfortable. Knowing the "one true truth" is a bit like painting yourself into the corner of a room. You may be very satisfied with the painting you did, but now you have to call someone to get out of there. Or you can stay there a few days until the paint drys. Nature may put up with stupidity to a point. But arrogance has a short leash.
I'm more concerned about the implications the technological advancements that come from a study like the one at CERN's LHC could bring...
Just think what if they do find what they are looking for? Where does that put the rest of humanity vs the people in control of the information coming out from Atlas and such... "They" being the scientists in charge of this opperation obv arnt gona give every knowledge they learn from this experiment to the general public meaning that the gap from the knowits to the unknowits will become larger. I would honestly not expect most physics experts to understand economys very well but some might. If you do then you realize what type of an effect having knowledge over another group of peoples can have on your economical control over that group... So basicaly I see this LHC experiment as bringing the gap between the rich and poor to an even larger effect. Thus possibly leading to a less stable enviorment for the world as a whole... Of course this is exactly what the people with technology/weaponry/money/power would want...
Just think what if they do find what they are looking for? Where does that put the rest of humanity vs the people in control of the information coming out from Atlas and such... "They" being the scientists in charge of this opperation obv arnt gona give every knowledge they learn from this experiment to the general public meaning that the gap from the knowits to the unknowits will become larger. I would honestly not expect most physics experts to understand economys very well but some might. If you do then you realize what type of an effect having knowledge over another group of peoples can have on your economical control over that group... So basicaly I see this LHC experiment as bringing the gap between the rich and poor to an even larger effect. Thus possibly leading to a less stable enviorment for the world as a whole... Of course this is exactly what the people with technology/weaponry/money/power would want...
QUOTE (magpies+Oct 22 2007, 12:28 AM)
"They" being the scientists in charge of this opperation obv arnt gona give every knowledge they learn from this experiment to the general public meaning that the gap from the knowits to the unknowits will become larger.
The results will be published, the models developed published. The technological applications will be developed by companies looking to make money. There'll be no hording of secrets.
All the results from previous colliders are out there for you to find. Have you ever bothered to look? When was the last time you went into a library or university and said "I'd like to see all the information pertaining to the Z boson discovery at LEP and models relating to it." ? Never, I imagine.
I've got more than a dozen books on my shelf behind me which cover such electroweak processes, many of them written after things like the discovery of the W and Z bosons and giving a lot of experimental outputs, showing how theory and experiment match.
You cannot claim "They are keeping all the information for themselves!!" then you've made no attempt to find the information yourself. If you do a physics degree, you'll be told loads of textbooks which discuss experimental results and how some falsify models and others verify models.
The 'gap' you talk of widens because some people, ie physicists, are constantly learning and other people, ie most people, never bothered to start learning physics in the first place. Hence, the gap seems to widen. Whose fault? The people who are constantly finding new data, churning out ideas and results or the people who don't do anything related to the area at all?
Now let me think....
The results will be published, the models developed published. The technological applications will be developed by companies looking to make money. There'll be no hording of secrets.
All the results from previous colliders are out there for you to find. Have you ever bothered to look? When was the last time you went into a library or university and said "I'd like to see all the information pertaining to the Z boson discovery at LEP and models relating to it." ? Never, I imagine.
I've got more than a dozen books on my shelf behind me which cover such electroweak processes, many of them written after things like the discovery of the W and Z bosons and giving a lot of experimental outputs, showing how theory and experiment match.
You cannot claim "They are keeping all the information for themselves!!" then you've made no attempt to find the information yourself. If you do a physics degree, you'll be told loads of textbooks which discuss experimental results and how some falsify models and others verify models.
The 'gap' you talk of widens because some people, ie physicists, are constantly learning and other people, ie most people, never bothered to start learning physics in the first place. Hence, the gap seems to widen. Whose fault? The people who are constantly finding new data, churning out ideas and results or the people who don't do anything related to the area at all?
Now let me think....
Great so I can get ahold of some of the unclassifed information 10 years later... Thats really gona help me when im trying to understand why the world is changing around me now... Im just looking at this through the eyes of the normal person and honestly I just dont see them grasping whats going on and how it will effect the lives they live. I see it could possibly be a boon to there lifes but I also can see it becoming a huge nightmare I guess its up to the individual what it is... But the cost of it being a boon may be to high for some right now. I think about myself who is very close to understanding how some very high tech things work and think there must be someone out there who has a better understanding with less moral values as me. This leads me to believe that if something really powerful in terms of a discovery is let out of the bag and this person realizes/knows it the world could be in more danger then it was before... Honesly I'm just trying to say that there is a time to invent everything and I dont think its time we invent the most perfect weapons / tools this world has seen yet. You can obv disagree with me on this issue or even the fact that if LCH shows what its suppost to that we get thouse things...
QUOTE (magpies+Oct 22 2007, 10:26 AM)
Great so I can get ahold of some of the unclassifed information 10 years later...
It was never classified (well, apart from the stuff in the 40s about nuclear research). If you work in the physics community, you can get your hands on it immediately. If you don't work in the physics community, you might have a bit of hassle initially (since I doubt many people ask for such data!) but due to the non-dangerous nature of being given the input and output momenta of particles, the information has no classification on it.
Bear in mind, the raw data runs well into the petabyte range, if not beyond to whatever the next one up is. CERN developed the original notion of the internet to share the vast amounts of data produced in colliders. Part of the LHC's infrastructure is a huge net connection of hundreds of gigabytes per second direct to several major research places around the world so that the output from experiments can be streamed as easily as possible.
It was never classified (well, apart from the stuff in the 40s about nuclear research). If you work in the physics community, you can get your hands on it immediately. If you don't work in the physics community, you might have a bit of hassle initially (since I doubt many people ask for such data!) but due to the non-dangerous nature of being given the input and output momenta of particles, the information has no classification on it.
Bear in mind, the raw data runs well into the petabyte range, if not beyond to whatever the next one up is. CERN developed the original notion of the internet to share the vast amounts of data produced in colliders. Part of the LHC's infrastructure is a huge net connection of hundreds of gigabytes per second direct to several major research places around the world so that the output from experiments can be streamed as easily as possible.
QUOTE (magpies+Oct 22 2007, 10:26 AM)
Im just looking at this through the eyes of the normal person and honestly I just dont see them grasping whats going on and how it will effect the lives they live.
How exactly would access to such information be of use to 'a normal person'. If you have no knowledge of quantum field theory, having trillions of bytes of raw collider output dumped on your doorstep would be pointless. I know a decent amount of QED and QCD and I'd have no freakin' idea what to do with such information!
You can grasp the concepts of what's going on, I managed it before I learnt the details of these models and all I did was read a lot. Read things anyone can get in libraries or book stores or the internet.
To understand a highly complex amount of data, you need to be trained for it. Physicists spend many years getting into such a position. I don't ask the guy at the Human Genome Project to email the raw output of his machine, because I'd be completely underskilled to understand it. I can see why such endeavours are important though.
You can grasp the concepts of what's going on, I managed it before I learnt the details of these models and all I did was read a lot. Read things anyone can get in libraries or book stores or the internet.
To understand a highly complex amount of data, you need to be trained for it. Physicists spend many years getting into such a position. I don't ask the guy at the Human Genome Project to email the raw output of his machine, because I'd be completely underskilled to understand it. I can see why such endeavours are important though.
QUOTE (magpies+Oct 22 2007, 10:26 AM)
I see it could possibly be a boon to there lifes but I also can see it becoming a huge nightmare I guess its up to the individual what it is
It's furthering our grasp of the universe. Previous technologial requirements of theoretical physicists lead through th the internet, computer chips, MRI and PET scanners, nuclear power, solar power, nanotechnology, understanding of superconductors. Perhaps the information gained from the LHC won't directly enrich your life, but the drive to find such information pushs so many different cutting edge technologies and they filter through into our lives.
QUOTE (magpies+Oct 22 2007, 10:26 AM)
But the cost of it being a boon may be to high for some right now
The LHC cost €6 billion, much of which goes to private companies who develop technologies we end up using as consumers. As I said, CERN helps drive the development of cutting edge or even semi-theoretical technologies.
€6 billion, that's $8~10 billion. Exxon make that in less than a fortnight profit. The UK NHS costs 25 times that a year. The US spends 50 times that on Medicare a year. The US has spent 50 times that in Iraq.
If you want to talk about drains on money, war is the ultimate one. For every dollar the US spends on trying to provide health care to it's citizens (and it doesn't even manage it comprehensively!! The UK and Canada do!), it will spend another dollar on ways to kill the citizens of another country. Yeah, 2% of that amount (which is spread between more than 20 countries!) spent on furthering our understanding of the universe is a real waste of money.
Much of what people do is not 'good'. You and I have computers while people in Africa starve to death. We buy bottled water when we can drink from the taps, all the while there's a drought in the Sahara. If you want to look at ways we can **** money down the drain in a way which doesn't 'benefit everyone', just look at capitalist consumerism. Personally I think the entire planet spending less money than we do on cosmetics each year ($18 billion) on a project to understand the universe ($10 billion over 2 decades!) is a lot better.
You?
€6 billion, that's $8~10 billion. Exxon make that in less than a fortnight profit. The UK NHS costs 25 times that a year. The US spends 50 times that on Medicare a year. The US has spent 50 times that in Iraq.
If you want to talk about drains on money, war is the ultimate one. For every dollar the US spends on trying to provide health care to it's citizens (and it doesn't even manage it comprehensively!! The UK and Canada do!), it will spend another dollar on ways to kill the citizens of another country. Yeah, 2% of that amount (which is spread between more than 20 countries!) spent on furthering our understanding of the universe is a real waste of money.
Much of what people do is not 'good'. You and I have computers while people in Africa starve to death. We buy bottled water when we can drink from the taps, all the while there's a drought in the Sahara. If you want to look at ways we can **** money down the drain in a way which doesn't 'benefit everyone', just look at capitalist consumerism. Personally I think the entire planet spending less money than we do on cosmetics each year ($18 billion) on a project to understand the universe ($10 billion over 2 decades!) is a lot better.
You?
QUOTE (magpies+Oct 22 2007, 10:26 AM)
d think there must be someone out there who has a better understanding with less moral values as me. his leads me to believe that if something really powerful in terms of a discovery is let out of the bag and this person realizes/knows it the world could be in more danger then it was before...
This kind of stuff isn't like nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons, for all their power, involve energies which on the scale of the LHC are a joke. The energy of radiation you find in Uranium is millionths of the amount the LHC can make. Nuclear fission is easy to do, hence why the technology is so guarded. If the LHC somehow has the ability to create a destructive force, it's not easy to duplicate.
There's security concerns about nukes the side of briefcases. You don't need big accelerators, you just need two lumps of a certain element. To recreate whatever effect the LHC might induce, you'd need a 27km long circular ring, €6 billion, a gigawatt power supply and 5 years to build it. Noone is going to 'secretly' do something like that. It's literally the largest machine on Earth!
We keep nuclear weapons in check by controlling the supply of the designs and the nuclear material. In the case of the LHC, no one group could amass the shear volume of equipment without being noticed.
See the difference? If the effect (ie black hole production) needs TeV energy scales, you need a machine which can generate that. We physically cannot make such a machine smaller than dozens of kilometres in size! A nuke needs no unnatural energy scales, it works at energies a stick of TNT can provide.
There's security concerns about nukes the side of briefcases. You don't need big accelerators, you just need two lumps of a certain element. To recreate whatever effect the LHC might induce, you'd need a 27km long circular ring, €6 billion, a gigawatt power supply and 5 years to build it. Noone is going to 'secretly' do something like that. It's literally the largest machine on Earth!
We keep nuclear weapons in check by controlling the supply of the designs and the nuclear material. In the case of the LHC, no one group could amass the shear volume of equipment without being noticed.
See the difference? If the effect (ie black hole production) needs TeV energy scales, you need a machine which can generate that. We physically cannot make such a machine smaller than dozens of kilometres in size! A nuke needs no unnatural energy scales, it works at energies a stick of TNT can provide.
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Oct 22 2007, 08:41 PM)
For every dollar the US spends on trying to provide health care to it's citizens (and it doesn't even manage it comprehensively!! The UK and Canada do!),
I'm feeling better now. Back at work.
I'm feeling better now. Back at work.
QUOTE (rpenner+Oct 22 2007, 10:23 PM)
Back at work.
You wouldn't want to lose your health benefits!
You wouldn't want to lose your health benefits!
Fortunately, the ten days I spent coughing up watery mucous that only occasionally was pink or red-flecked, was spent on my scheduled vacation, so the only loss was toward my goal of obtaining a driver's license. (The daily USD $120+ I spend on taxi round-trips to work has probably not been the best use of my funds, when I could have been funding super colliders.)
Despite annual bouts with these symptoms, the wonderful doctors assure me I am not running a fever and not clinically allergic to any tested substance, so I must not be sick. My next bout is due circa Jan 10 and is expected to last 60 days.
Despite annual bouts with these symptoms, the wonderful doctors assure me I am not running a fever and not clinically allergic to any tested substance, so I must not be sick. My next bout is due circa Jan 10 and is expected to last 60 days.
rpenner, ick, gaa. I hope you feel better. AlphaNumeric, I think the next step up is exabyte...
All you who have signed the petition, I'll expect to see outside CERN with rolled up copies together with pitchforks, flaming brands shouting "Burn 'em, burn 'em!" 
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