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yquantum
smile.gif Hi everyone it has been awhile,

Particles have mass, what mechanism can cause this? We know of one theory {Higgs Mechanism} & it will soon be tested. [LHC] 2007. Do you think this theory is plausible?

We know that matter is made of molecules; molecules of atoms; atoms of a cloud of electrons about one-hundred-millionth of a centimeter and a nucleus about one-hundred-thousandth the size of the electron cloud. [This e cloud, is far richer when investigated Eh!] biggrin.gif

The nucleus is made of protons and neutrons. Each proton (or neutron) has about two thousand times the mass of an electron. We believe we understand why the nucleus is so small. We do not know, however, how the particles get their masses.

I believe what I have read not all on this PhysOrg. Forum, this question touches each one in a very quantitative way, if we can speculate in theory on how mass comes about then maybe all the other questions can have a premise to build on.

ciao_
yquantum

PS

I know this deals with the Standard Model, Particle Physics, QM, SR, symmetry, VP, & bosons etc. But what I have had the privilege to read, I know much can be offered if you choose. I am on vacation hope to read your comments, for those who have special events in your country. Happy Holidays.
fivedoughnut
For a far less than detailed account see my intoxicated "sketches" in fivedoughnuts Spacial vacuoles. biggrin.gif
yquantum
ohmy.gif Hi fivedoughnut,

unsure.gif

Point the way to your site I would like to read them, I have been gone for a while so it will take awhile for me to find my way -if that is possible-.

So, if your comment is legitimate new is good & if not then I understand. Thank you.

ciao_
yquantum
fivedoughnut
It's currently 5 topics down in this forum....as for legitimate?...no idea?.. hope you have a fun read! biggrin.gif
Nick
Mass isn't a "mechanism" its a substance.
E equals MC squared.
darkmatters73
Hi Nick,

Sorry, but no cigar. It is a mechanism & E=mc2 does have a role in the process when it comes to energy. I am not up on Particle Physics like Y, but I do know that to brake symmetry it must be less than 250 GeV.

Just to help you out, because I do not want to cause a fuss here. I just read all sites that makes reference to Higgs. You need to check into W-, W+ & Z when particles have E greater than 250 GeV symmetry is preserved.

E=mc2 does play a role glad you mentioned it, kudos Nick.

Best,
darkmatters73
yquantum
smile.gif Hi Nick, darkmatters73,

dm is that 73% dark matter/energy?
Good one! Oh, I forgot welcome I have been gone for a while. What other sites are we talking about? sad.gif

This is not to cause chaos guys, Nick it shows us compared with the energy that AE's relation E=mc^2 associates with its mass.

I would ask you to look into QM & massive gauge boson. High energy & low energy. The low energy predictions that become sensible. [gauge bosons]

Check it out. wink.gif

ciao_
yquantum
MMC
Mechanism or substance???

This is a damn good question.

I can see it terms of a mechanism, in that, it can be manipulated. I can also see it in terms of a substance, in that, mass must be "something"...

I think the answer would be in the middle, it is a substance that can be manipulated by mechanisms...

That would be consistant with the Higgs boson and Higgs field scenarios...
yquantum
cool.gif Hi MMC,

Thank you, but I cannot take credit here, you very well know about Petter Higgs. What I love about this theory is it lets the Standard Model particles, quarks, leptons, and W gauge bosons, to have mass.

I have wondered about alternatives, but Peter H. has the best out there as of today.

I hope this will bring much to the table, because there is so much to sink your teeth into. I just hope it helps the Forum because this site has very intelligent people contributing. And the truth be known I want to learn as much as I can.

ciao_
yquantum smile.gif
MMC
QUOTE

Thank you, but I cannot take credit here, you very well know about Petter Higgs. What I love about this theory is it lets the Standard Model particles, quarks, leptons, and W gauge bosons, to have mass.


At one stage I did not support this, feeling that gravity was something else. Since I got to grips with relativity, I can pretty much see where the higgs field fits in. In fact, I think that it should be called the "Higg's Dimension", as that is more accurate.

I feel that the dilations between Higgs particles act as the mechanism to "expose" mass to our dimension. This would explain why mass increases with acceleration, the dilations cover more area in one second than they normally would.

This would make speed and mass somewhat proportional.
yquantum
MMC,

I think dimensions has everything to do with Higgs. But that is my background so I understand I can be bias.

Very astute, from my humble frame of reference. And yes I believe we can bring in gravity on the crux of this difficult problem matter [pun].

I know it is unintuitive to visualize this energy field [and there is a reason that the steaming virtual particles in vacuum space play, maybe they are not such a waste of time - Eh! Feynman] yet if we cannot see outside our 4d, then maybe we can see a reflection of the true ubiquitous relationship of its source that will give us insight to other dimensions as you have already stated.

Thank you for your comments. Hope many will help us in this venture of consideration.

yquantum
Zephir
Particles are having mass, because they having an internal energy - there's nothing about it. The Higgs mechanism should explain just the non zero mass of gauge bosons, but basically it's existence is unnecessary in Aether wave theory, too.

user posted image User posted image
fivedoughnut
QUOTE (Zephir+Dec 9 2005, 11:29 PM)
Particles are having mass, because they having an internal energy - there's nothing about it. The Higgs mechanism should explain just the non zero mass of gauge bosons, but basically it's existence is unnecessary in Aether wave theory, too.

user posted image User posted image

Excellent doughnuts Zeph'......hic! smile.gif
yquantum
biggrin.gif Hi Zephir,

I remember you from the last time I visited. I have read your Aether wave theory, I hope we can agree that I respectfully disagree in your proposition and with what you have stated in this discussion.

I do appreciate your passion. smile.gif Thank you for your input.

ciao_
yquantum cool.gif
philip347
Particles have presure. They dont necessarily have to have, what is realized as mass.
philip347
If mankind wants the Higg, to what end?

It is the process that constructs the Higgs, not the Higgs itself.

*The process of cf creation, is an action that has gone on as many functions.

Good Elf
Hi yquantum, zephir, fivedoughnut, MMC and darkmatters73,

It is good to see you back on board yquantum. Naturally this post is aimed generally at the question of mass and is not a criticism of anyone in particular (living or dead). This is a topic that needed starting. The Higgs is a bewildering concept to me as well as a "nonsense". I have seen all those really dumb ideas on the Higgs and how to explain it to Politicians... etc. Very unimpressive. It shows me that some Physicists haven't got a clue how to explain anything. Even CERN has dealt with "the unwashed masses" (no pun intended) as if they are total idiots...
Higgs at CERN
Here are "all" the dumb explanations for the Higgs that are in common circulation...
The Waldegrave Higgs Challenge
Have a read and this would all be very funny except it is supposed to be science. The scientist won a "frigg'in" prize for that! What is this the local County Fair? sleep.gif And all you guys and gals are the dumb local yokels showing off your prize pigs and turnips. dry.gif Now that I have shown less than reverence for these ideas we can begin to ask serious questions instead of bowing in admiration at the Emperor's New Clothes.

I think that the premise that there exist a "particle" which answers every question we pose for the Universe is... as they say ... "the cart before the horse". Before the present "particle paradigms" the Universe could be viewed as simply the geometry of energy. Particles are just a "shorthand" description for the underlying energy processes at a more fundamental level of the Universe. The idea that this concept (of particle) will lead to the "next step" in physics is a "gospel" without a true prophet. Quantum Theory is based on a Universe that is not directly connected spatially with Einstein's "space-time"... there is no continuity or one to one mapping... at least I have not seen it. The closest thing to it would be Bohmian Dynamics and that still does not fully answer the question only shows where it diverges from quantum theory and a way to flatten the way the two descriptions handle their separate "solutions".

There is a need to deal with quantum theory in the end because it is a theory that is "so good that it not even wrong". The numbers are just "perfect". This is a powerful argument in case you have not noticed... for simply saying that there is no further physics to be found there. Do not be so quick to argue with this point since no matter what you could find "out there" another postulate in the total Pantheon of Quantum Postulates can "seal" for all time this question by "dismissing any physics" in favor of "quick and dirty" answers by "dashing off" a couple of new postulates. I especially reserve this process for "hiding" higher dimensions. This is not just what Einstein Thought but it was also what Louis de Broglie thought as well. You know ... the guy who brought you the particle-wave duality concept. As "royalty" goes he was a prince indeed... and "earned" the title with his mind... all those other princes are "freeloaders" with inherited titles... He he he!

What I would now like to "illuminate" is Louis de Broglie's original paper (or is that the back of a cigarette packet) on this process.. it is available on the web here...
RADIATION � Waves and Quanta - Translated from Comptes rendus, Vol. 177, 1923, pp. 507-510
see also...
WAVE MECHANICS Prince Louis de Broglie
... and it is easy to understand, unlike a lot of "nonsense" nowadays. When you have read it go to the animation and have a look... then consider the process of altering the mass of a particle and consider where it is coming from. I think that will put you all on the track toward a "relativistic" understanding of quantum physics. This idea is still as good today as it has ever been all the "new age" ideas must do a lot better at an explanation than they have presently. It is simple and it is straightforward and it is Einstein (with E = hf thrown on for good measure).

The explanation on the page about the wave motion MUST be read and contemplated. It is not a "model" view of a particle, or what a particle looks like, zephir has "pictures" for you if that is the need, it is a conceptual view and I want you to distinguish between the various ideas...
De Broglie Phase Wave Animation
A "further detail" is here for your philosophical consideration...
QUOTE (http://www.davis-inc.com/physics/+)
A consequence of de Broglie's reasoning is that a phase wave, often referred to as the "pilot" wave, appears to accompany the particle.  This is made evident in de Broglie's 1923 Comptes rendus  note.  Yet, modern introductions to quantum mechanics often fail to emphasize that this phase wave arises as an inevitable consequence of de Broglie's assumption of the internal periodic phenomenon of the particle and the transformation laws of the special theory of relativity.  A notable exception is "Introduction to Quantum Mechanics," A. P. French and Edwin F. Taylor, W. W. Norton & Co., pp. 55-62 (1978).

Given de Broglie's assumptions, quantum mechanics, which is to say the study of the behavior and interpretation of the phase wave, is the study of an inherently relativistic phenomenon.  In this sense, if it were not for relativistic effects, quantum (wave) mechanics would not exist!  Yet, the phrase "non-relativistic quantum mechanics" is a commonplace.  Clearly, this phrase should be understood to refer to the quantum mechanical description of particles moving at speeds very much less than the speed of light, but not to imply that relativistic effects are ever of no consequence in quantum mechanics.

An example is provided by the orbits of the electron in the hydrogen atom.  Even for the innermost orbits, the speed of the electron is very much less than the speed of light.  While the motion of the electron is, therefore, "non-relativistic" in the sense that the relativistic corrections to the classically (non-quantum mechanical) predicted behavior of the electron would be inconsequential, relativistic effects in fact dominate.  That is, the phase wave associated with the electron, which leads directly to the quantization of the allowed orbits, is, according to de Broglie's model, relativistic in origin.  If not for the relativistic transformations that give rise to the phase wave, quantization of the orbits and, hence, the spectrum of the hydrogen atom would not occur.  Clearly then, relativistic effects cannot be considered to be inconsequential in determining the electronic properties of the hydrogen atom, even though the speed of the orbiting electron is very much less than the speed of light.


You can see where de Broglie went from there..
de Broglie-Bohm Quantum Mechanics
After that we can talk turkey about "Higgs Mechanisms" and a lot more. I have discussed a bit about this before recently...
Traveling at the speed of light, ? about relative perception
user posted image
As you can see... and you may assume... my thoughts on this matter are very "ideosyncratic" and "individualistic"... you won't see them anywhere else except here. Although I can't say for the hell in me why not... has everyone gone to sleep at the wheel out there? wink.gif

Oh... a recent reference to the Higgs in Scientific American..
The Mysteries of Mass June 2005 Sci Am.

Cheers
Nick
QUOTE (darkmatters73+Dec 9 2005, 07:56 PM)
Hi Nick,

Sorry, but no cigar.  It is a mechanism & E=mc2 does have a role in the process when it comes to energy. 

You have a problem with substance of the universe. It's Aether.

Light has mass. So does space. The mass in matter is a form of concentrated energy. It's in process it isn't a process Darky.
Zephir
Should the Higgs explain just the Z/W-boson and the t-quark mass - or all_of_particle mass?
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

QUOTE
Should the Higgs explain just the Z/W-boson and the t-quark mass - or all_of_particle mass?

Unless we think that the expenditure of billions of dollars is just for the sake of building big machine it must... otherwise it will not be a convincing theory. The reason they are building these machines (eg. LHC) is to answer the questions because at the moment they have no answers. We really do not know if a "Higgs" exists or not. Correct me if I am wrong but they are all waiting for the big machines to crank out a few of those "parameters" that they can put into models that will let them "simulate" the way they "work".

There is no way of knowing just what the mass of the Higgs is supposed to be and it is actually a big guess at the moment. I find it conceptually difficult to understand why such a particle with such a mass is required to exist in vast numbers everywhere throughout the Universe... if we are surrounded and enveloped by them shouldn't they be having a dramatic influence on all of us all the time. The Higgs is supposed to have a mass about 200 times that of a proton. There should be "pools" of Higgs Particles just laying around being "massive"... is there something wrong with this idea? Please tell me! Will the Higgs have a half life?... will the Higgs be "matter" like other matter but unable to form "atoms" of Higgs particles??? Is there nothing in the Universe that can trap a Higgs or pool them together like a BEC????? Would it behave like "dwarf star matter without an electronic shell? Someone please tell me what does a Higgs Particle do other than supply "mass". With enormous supplies of Higgs around in the Universe why have we not seen one of them without us actually having to create them. When we do create them what guarantee is there that we will see them with our detectors if we have seen none of them as yet. We should be subjected to continuous "hailstorm" of very heavy particles .... the center of planets should be full of them. These little BB's should punch a hole in the Continuum and suck us all in.

It seems to me we will declare a "Higgs" by it's absence. A particle interaction will have an "invisible" companion and everyone will say "there is the Higgs". The sweat will stop dripping off the Particle Physicists and everyone will be back to business as usual...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Should the Higgs explain just the Z/W-boson and the t-quark mass - or all_of_particle mass?

Unless we think that the expenditure of billions of dollars is just for the sake of building big machine it must... otherwise it will not be a convincing theory. The reason they are building these machines (eg. LHC) is to answer the questions because at the moment they have no answers. We really do not know if a "Higgs" exists or not. Correct me if I am wrong but they are all waiting for the big machines to crank out a few of those "parameters" that they can put into models that will let them "simulate" the way they "work".

There is no way of knowing just what the mass of the Higgs is supposed to be and it is actually a big guess at the moment. I find it conceptually difficult to understand why such a particle with such a mass is required to exist in vast numbers everywhere throughout the Universe... if we are surrounded and enveloped by them shouldn't they be having a dramatic influence on all of us all the time. The Higgs is supposed to have a mass about 200 times that of a proton. There should be "pools" of Higgs Particles just laying around being "massive"... is there something wrong with this idea? Please tell me! Will the Higgs have a half life?... will the Higgs be "matter" like other matter but unable to form "atoms" of Higgs particles??? Is there nothing in the Universe that can trap a Higgs or pool them together like a BEC????? Would it behave like "dwarf star matter without an electronic shell? Someone please tell me what does a Higgs Particle do other than supply "mass". With enormous supplies of Higgs around in the Universe why have we not seen one of them without us actually having to create them. When we do create them what guarantee is there that we will see them with our detectors if we have seen none of them as yet. We should be subjected to continuous "hailstorm" of very heavy particles .... the center of planets should be full of them. These little BB's should punch a hole in the Continuum and suck us all in.

It seems to me we will declare a "Higgs" by it's absence. A particle interaction will have an "invisible" companion and everyone will say "there is the Higgs". The sweat will stop dripping off the Particle Physicists and everyone will be back to business as usual...

"Fit the Eighth: THE VANISHING"
They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap.

They shuddered to think that the chase might fail,
And the Beaver, excited at last,
Went bounding along on the tip of its tail,
For the daylight was nearly past.

"There is Thingumbob shouting!" the Bellman said,
"He is shouting like mad, only hark!
He is waving his hands, he is wagging his head,
He has certainly found a Snark!"

They gazed in delight, while the Butcher exclaimed
"He was always a desperate wag!"
They beheld him -- their Baker -- their hero unnamed --
On the top of a neighboring crag.

Erect and sublime, for one moment of time.
In the next, that wild figure they saw
(As if stung by a spasm) plunge into a chasm,
While they waited and listened in awe.

"It's a Snark!" was the sound that first came to their ears,
And seemed almost too good to be true.
Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers:
Then the ominous words "It's a Boo-"

Then, silence. Some fancied they heard in the air
A weary and wandering sigh
Then sounded like "-jum!" but the others declare
It was only a breeze that went by.

They hunted till darkness came on, but they found
Not a button, or feather, or mark,
By which they could tell that they stood on the ground
Where the Baker had met with the Snark.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away -- -
For the Snark was a Boojum, you see.

Lewis Carroll


Still we must look for it if it means anything at all. I don't know what it is we should find. There have been a couple of events that may have been Higgs. Could someone explain why they may have been Higgs? What would be the clincher on this.

Looking back on my previous post... I hope you read it...
On the other hand the relativistic view says that mass is the relationship between the "particles" group velocity and it's phase velocity. In the special cases of massless particles there is no difference and the mass of the particle is zero. The further these phases are apart the more massive the particle. Now what causes this phase "dispersion"... have a look at that topological Photon/Electron again and have a think about it and the frame of reference that observations are being made from.
Is the electron a photon with Toroidal Topology?

Cheers

yquantum
rolleyes.gif Hi Good Elf,

A little time off, I think we call it a vacation. HA! Yet, I am on this site just wanting to relax. Eh! Would like to leave for awhile and do some skiing on the slopes. Hope not to break anything...

OH, please tell me how you really feel. You have changed [abet - NOT] I see.

QUOTE
It shows me that some Physicists haven't got a clue how to explain anything. Even CERN has dealt with "the unwashed masses" (no pun intended) as if they are total idiots...


Good Elf, I will get back with you on this, if I understood you correctly then I believe I had better change my occupations and become a [?] maker. hee hee. wink.gif

Nothing personal, hope yours comment were general as well?

I just wanted to look into the possibilities, living or dead, many have given us much and great advances have become part of our very existence, I just hope we all can be open minded, even if it seems unintuitive.

Later my friend,
ciao_
yquantum
Good Elf
Hi yquantum,

biggrin.gif It was not a personal comment at all but it would be nice to see just what the big bucks are going into. Remember I am a big fan of String Theory and I believe that String Theory is "incompatible" with the Higgs.... just my opinion here. I do not think that we are able to discern "higher dimensions" with the accelerators. What I am afraid of is closing off further investigation into String Theory (at least my version of it) prematurely.

"The Higgs" may very well be an expression of higher dimensions... subtle dimensions.

Cheers
PS: Please "refresh" and read the end of the last post again I was just "polishing up"...
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 10 2005, 11:02 AM)
Is the electron a photon with Toroidal Topology?

Well, Good Elf, you must be a politician or at least lawyer in civil life - as usually lot of words and none the relevant answers.... wink.gif Or are you really believe, the question "Is the electron a photon with Toroidal Topology?" is answer of my question?

My very simple question was "Should the Higgs explain just the Z/W-boson and the t-quark mass - or mass of all particles"? If you looking for something, it's suggested at least, you have some expectations... wink.gif
Good Elf
Hi Zephir and yquantum,

Yquantum... please do not break any typing fingers but have some fun. Is that a "watchmaker" you were referring to there? wink.gif When you said that it was unintuitive... do you think it may be that as well? We have all srayed far from the comfort zone of intuition. I am an elf and forgive me for being intuitive and very physical... even "classical" in my view. No harm intended just that the "cartoons" are very hard to swallow coming from CERN. Surely they can do better than that?

QUOTE (Zephir Posted on Dec 10 2005+ 11:39 AM)
Well, Good Elf, you must be a politician or at least lawyer in civil life - as usually lot of words and none the relevant answers....

Well I did ... first line...
QUOTE (Zephir Posted on Dec 10 2005+ 08:01 AM)
QUOTE
Should the Higgs explain just the Z/W-boson and the t-quark mass - or all_of_particle mass?

Unless we think that the expenditure of billions of dollars is just for the sake of building {a} big machine it must... otherwise it will not be a convincing theory.

I have added an appropriate emphasis and an "a" there to bring that out more... As I understand it... it is the primary cause of mass in the Universe not just the reason for one particular interaction. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am open minded on the matter of the Higgs but we must think about the subject very carefully. When it comes to the Higgs... I admit I do not have the answers. I have no deep insight into the matter... I only wish I had. I have a separate theory of the origins of mass based on Relativity. I was commenting on the hopes for the Higgs. To me it is a worrying thought if they did not find anything at all because it would affect physics everywhere. I don't know about your part of the globe zephir but here in Australia there is a reluctance on the part of Governments to part with Research dollars and to cut funding to Physics and to ridicule Science in general might be the plan when things go wrong. We have a religious right here (not as bad as in the US) but influential and running members for Federal Government (and winning). They are very anti-science and strong Church Supporters. The present Government owes them plenty.

Since the Higgs is supposed to be the carrier of mass I was reflecting on the lack of clarity for the idea that has been expressed. Now remember last time we spoke about this how you responded with the winner of the Waldegrave Higgs Challenge. Now you might think that it answered my question but still left me "underwhelmed". A particle that has such high mass distributed so globally through the Universe yet "undiscovered". It is not that there are any processes today in the local environment that could easily produce these from energy so presumably they are exceedingly long lived since we all have mass even when floating in space so there is no appreciable clumping around planets. They do not appear to have a short half-life so we must be surrounded by them in the "droves".

While I have my doubts about the Higgs and the mechanism itself there is no more important question in physics today. If Grand Unification is to ever occur, a mechanism for mass must be found. We have String Theory and it "could" have a Higgs in it (I do not think so but that is only my opinion). So the thought is if the Higgs is not found String Theory is killed off as well... what is String Theory and a TOE without Gravity and mass? This is definitely NOT what I want to see... effectively a political end to Theoretical and Experimental Physics for a "very long time". This may please some politicians but it will not please me. I am not a politician... I am only an elf with a passion for physics. I know that yquantum has a passion as well for these matters. IMHO it would be wise to have a "fall-back" position in case the particle idea finally fails. I have considered this matter long and hard and the paradigm contains insufficient information to solve this last great problem... to sum it up "not enough dimensions".

I have not discussed my "ideas" in this thread yet but I am certainly not about to "kill the Higgs off" either. I think that the Higgs is the ultimate test of the real nature of the Universe and how this question is answered is just as important as if the question is answered. Like Deep Thought with the answer to Life the Universe and Everything being 42... It is not enough saying we are just going to build things bigger... the politicians will bolt at the next step.

All in all I think I have asked some serious questions and I do not think there are any serious answers out there. The Higgs "Theory" is "all or nothing" and that scares me. It is like being an unwilling passenger in a car where someone has bet that we can "pass" through a 20 ft high brick wall provided we are traveling at over 100 MPH without knowing the thickness of the wall. OK... it might work but I am getting mighty "toey". You can't blame me for some concern about the Higgs.

Instead of what elves are worrying about I would like to hear from some of you out there that can help ease my "jitters".... please!

Cheers
PS:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Should the Higgs explain just the Z/W-boson and the t-quark mass - or all_of_particle mass?

Unless we think that the expenditure of billions of dollars is just for the sake of building {a} big machine it must... otherwise it will not be a convincing theory.

I have added an appropriate emphasis and an "a" there to bring that out more... As I understand it... it is the primary cause of mass in the Universe not just the reason for one particular interaction. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am open minded on the matter of the Higgs but we must think about the subject very carefully. When it comes to the Higgs... I admit I do not have the answers. I have no deep insight into the matter... I only wish I had. I have a separate theory of the origins of mass based on Relativity. I was commenting on the hopes for the Higgs. To me it is a worrying thought if they did not find anything at all because it would affect physics everywhere. I don't know about your part of the globe zephir but here in Australia there is a reluctance on the part of Governments to part with Research dollars and to cut funding to Physics and to ridicule Science in general might be the plan when things go wrong. We have a religious right here (not as bad as in the US) but influential and running members for Federal Government (and winning). They are very anti-science and strong Church Supporters. The present Government owes them plenty.

Since the Higgs is supposed to be the carrier of mass I was reflecting on the lack of clarity for the idea that has been expressed. Now remember last time we spoke about this how you responded with the winner of the Waldegrave Higgs Challenge. Now you might think that it answered my question but still left me "underwhelmed". A particle that has such high mass distributed so globally through the Universe yet "undiscovered". It is not that there are any processes today in the local environment that could easily produce these from energy so presumably they are exceedingly long lived since we all have mass even when floating in space so there is no appreciable clumping around planets. They do not appear to have a short half-life so we must be surrounded by them in the "droves".

While I have my doubts about the Higgs and the mechanism itself there is no more important question in physics today. If Grand Unification is to ever occur, a mechanism for mass must be found. We have String Theory and it "could" have a Higgs in it (I do not think so but that is only my opinion). So the thought is if the Higgs is not found String Theory is killed off as well... what is String Theory and a TOE without Gravity and mass? This is definitely NOT what I want to see... effectively a political end to Theoretical and Experimental Physics for a "very long time". This may please some politicians but it will not please me. I am not a politician... I am only an elf with a passion for physics. I know that yquantum has a passion as well for these matters. IMHO it would be wise to have a "fall-back" position in case the particle idea finally fails. I have considered this matter long and hard and the paradigm contains insufficient information to solve this last great problem... to sum it up "not enough dimensions".

I have not discussed my "ideas" in this thread yet but I am certainly not about to "kill the Higgs off" either. I think that the Higgs is the ultimate test of the real nature of the Universe and how this question is answered is just as important as if the question is answered. Like Deep Thought with the answer to Life the Universe and Everything being 42... It is not enough saying we are just going to build things bigger... the politicians will bolt at the next step.

All in all I think I have asked some serious questions and I do not think there are any serious answers out there. The Higgs "Theory" is "all or nothing" and that scares me. It is like being an unwilling passenger in a car where someone has bet that we can "pass" through a 20 ft high brick wall provided we are traveling at over 100 MPH without knowing the thickness of the wall. OK... it might work but I am getting mighty "toey". You can't blame me for some concern about the Higgs.

Instead of what elves are worrying about I would like to hear from some of you out there that can help ease my "jitters".... please!

Cheers
PS: "Is the electron a photon with Toroidal Topology?" is answer of my question?

No.. that is a link to a scientific paper with that title. The content you probably know by now.
http://members.chello.nl/~n.benschop/electron.pdf
yquantum
ohmy.gif biggrin.gif Hi Good Elf,

I guess y can sometimes be Y. Eh! No problem.....

Zephir I overreacted, I think it was the CERN statement and to much cold weather. It went to my head. I have deleted my ignorance and for those you have not read what was said, GREAT, and those who read what I said, I have made a formal apology below.

Good Elf, understood and I retract.

I believe this is the first step to a better understanding of the Standard Model, which is a very good and established theory and then maybe just maybe, we can see the shadows of higher dimensions because we will never have the energy to reach Planck's length in the near future. We do know of W-, W+ & Z. We also know that © is massless, for those who do research in the field.

What we do not know is how the mass/particle relationship works. That was all I wanted for this forum.

I am sure there will be some fallout for a while, but after the smoke clears maybe we can talk about this in a very intelligent and productive way.

You love good physics and I support you on that. No limbs broken thus far. HA!

The Super String Theory is still safe, I wish this as well and your desire for results is valid and you are on the right path as of today, with all that you have stated Good Elf.

ciao_
yquantum
Good Elf
Hi yquantum and zephir,

I think that zephir is also trying hard to contribute. If he attacks an elf its OK by me as long as it is not with an axe... he he he! That goes for you as well yquantum... you don't need to take it from grouchy elves either. biggrin.gif

On the Higgs... are you saying that usually they travel at the speed of light except during an interaction? What about that 200 proton mass they must at least have? Seeing the shadows of those higher dimensions may require subtlety.
QUOTE (yquantum Posted on Dec 10 2005+ 03:44 PM)
What we do not know is how the mass/particle relationship works. That was all I wanted for this forum.

I can discuss this concept in my own way which is not really Higgs. I guess you caught that bit about de Broglie and mass. It seems to me that relativity will be the predominant effect on the mass of particles and it is linked to that internal process that de Broglie spoke about. His theory holds quite well even today.
QUOTE (Good Elf Posted on Dec 10 2005+ 11:02 AM)
On the other hand the relativistic view says that mass is the relationship between the "particles" group velocity and it's phase velocity. In the special cases of massless particles there is no difference and the mass of the particle is zero. The further these phases are apart the more massive the particle. Now what causes this phase "dispersion"... have a look at that topological Photon/Electron again and have a think about it and the frame of reference that observations are being made from.
Is the electron a photon with Toroidal Topology?
This "dispersion" is not the norm and it would require a special set of circumstances to "see" this effect. In some other posts I have said that internal to the electron trapped in it's own "pocket universe" it will adopt the spin of the Universe itself... our Universe scaled to the cavity size. Inside the cavity the photon is propagating freely in "unlimited" closed space of 6 dimensions. It will soon loop the internal space and satisfy de Broglie's Bohr Radius relationship. That is the only bit of the theory that needs to be added... a dimensionally curved and closed space that removes one of the primary postulates of quantum theory. This is a closed possibly multiplely connected toroidal space. True Extra dimensions. This "geometry" is also to be found in the "electronic structure of the atom" as a phantom that can trap electrons or photons. It has just been "misunderstood". I think this structure can be identified as the ghostly "sparticles"... the hybridized twins of the nuclear particles but in higher spaces as outlined by Witten.

The W and Z bosons would be "out of place" bosons that would normally "inhabit" the interior (higher dimensional surfaces) of the fermion particle spaces. Inside their own dimensional spaces they have "infinite" range and "zero mass"... the same "function" as our photons. Once "extracted" at high energy from their dimensional traps they now exhibit "range" and "mass" as previously discussed.

IMHO HEP can extract W and Z from fermions and particles but high energy will work the other way and be unable to reach higher dimensions since they are spatial and temporal periodic lock and key systems. More is not better there. From that point of view HEP guys should turn their hands to being "locksmiths" rather than "watchmakers".

Cheers
yquantum
ohmy.gif Hi Good Elf, Zephir,

My apologizes Zephir, you have a right to your views, this is an open Forum and what you have to say is just as important as anyone else including me. Thank you for the knock on the skull, Good Elf. sad.gif

Good Elf, we know [in theory] that the weakly charged Higgs particle has to be light around 250 GeV to give the weak gauge boson masses that have been measured thus far. We can talk about speed (SR) and mass later, I think it wise to see the Higgs from ground up. smile.gif

Please understand we are talking about energy (this is where the big bucks as you mentioned are going), but you cannot ignore virtual particles in the process, they to play a large part in the process of the Higgs particle. [QM & UCT]

I am going back now to have some down [pun] time with the family. There is so much to Higgs, I cannot go anywhere without discussion of the possibilities.

Oh, SS mathematics is used in almost all disciplines of physics. It is here to stay, at least until we can comprehend it. HA! laugh.gif

ciao_
yquantum
Zephir
...
yquantum
Zephir,

QUOTE
...
sad.gif

Understood, cannot say I blame you. You have much to say and many regrets on my part. I have done all that I can in this matter. huh.gif

ciao_
y

Zephir
...'K, just repeat slowly after Me...

"Omm, I fully understand and believe in Your Perfect Aether Wave Theory"...
"Omm, I'll never express weakness or doubts anymore"....
"Omm, I fully trust You, my Big White Guru"...
...
...
...

Ten to twelve-times before each meal, for absolution.... cool.gif
yquantum
laugh.gif Glad your back Zephir,

I am afraid if I did so, I would be put into a particle accelerator and if there could be and QM tells us if not it will, be a anti-yquantum then I would be annihilated. HA!
ohmy.gif

But your imput will be most welcomed, and thank you for your for absolution I think. biggrin.gif

I will now laugh at each meal & then will be asked why, this will be a story I will share many times I assure you.

ciao_best regards,
yquantum smile.gif
Guest
Hi yquantum,

QUOTE
Good Elf, we know [in theory] that the weakly charged Higgs particle has to be light around 250 GeV to give the weak gauge boson masses that have been measured thus far.  We can talk about speed (SR) and mass later, I think it wise to see the Higgs from ground up. smile.gif

Please understand we are talking about energy (this is where the big bucks as you mentioned are going), but you cannot ignore virtual particles in the process, they to play a large part in the process of the Higgs particle.  [QM & UCT]

This is where you have a tremendous advantage over me. I really do not intuitively "get" the Higgs. What kinds of virtual particle are expected? Are we speaking of virtual Higgs Particles created in a collision process between the quarks in two protons? In this model of the Higgs it is a transitory particle that would not be directly detectable. The idea that a large number of these collisions will finally "actualize" one of these virtual particles for the brief 10user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image S seems difficult to understand. My beanie is getting a sweat band around my brow on this one. These jets of "free quarks" that are produced when the Higgs disintegrate seem to be the only trace that the Higgs leaves behind. The intermediate Higgs Particle could be something else couldn't it? It will not be possible to see a track of the Higgs... as far as the experiment is concerned. Is this correct?

The energy of this Higgs could be anything according to my reading on this matter due to the arising of these Virtual Higgs. This is the "hierarchy problem". It just so happens that the Standard Model will fail at these energies with new high temperature physics kicking in with associated new particles??? This is where the normal particles "disappear" and are replaced with the supersymmetric particle pairs (so they say). At the same time the as yet undiscovered Higgs is replaced by a "Little Higgs"... a "supersymmetric twin Higgs reborn into that realm with much lower mass??? I hate to say this but this is a bit of a well known magician's trick.

This is some sort of non-linear symmetry introduced at that scale that converts the particles such as bosons and fermions and ordinary Higgs into supersymmetric pairs or sparticles having new properties altogether. This allows all these quantum field corrections to cancel (magically).

A web page that I looked at recently (the one where the "sheep" came from) has this quotation from PAM Dirac...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Good Elf, we know [in theory] that the weakly charged Higgs particle has to be light around 250 GeV to give the weak gauge boson masses that have been measured thus far.  We can talk about speed (SR) and mass later, I think it wise to see the Higgs from ground up. smile.gif

Please understand we are talking about energy (this is where the big bucks as you mentioned are going), but you cannot ignore virtual particles in the process, they to play a large part in the process of the Higgs particle.  [QM & UCT]

This is where you have a tremendous advantage over me. I really do not intuitively "get" the Higgs. What kinds of virtual particle are expected? Are we speaking of virtual Higgs Particles created in a collision process between the quarks in two protons? In this model of the Higgs it is a transitory particle that would not be directly detectable. The idea that a large number of these collisions will finally "actualize" one of these virtual particles for the brief 10user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image S seems difficult to understand. My beanie is getting a sweat band around my brow on this one. These jets of "free quarks" that are produced when the Higgs disintegrate seem to be the only trace that the Higgs leaves behind. The intermediate Higgs Particle could be something else couldn't it? It will not be possible to see a track of the Higgs... as far as the experiment is concerned. Is this correct?

The energy of this Higgs could be anything according to my reading on this matter due to the arising of these Virtual Higgs. This is the "hierarchy problem". It just so happens that the Standard Model will fail at these energies with new high temperature physics kicking in with associated new particles??? This is where the normal particles "disappear" and are replaced with the supersymmetric particle pairs (so they say). At the same time the as yet undiscovered Higgs is replaced by a "Little Higgs"... a "supersymmetric twin Higgs reborn into that realm with much lower mass??? I hate to say this but this is a bit of a well known magician's trick.

This is some sort of non-linear symmetry introduced at that scale that converts the particles such as bosons and fermions and ordinary Higgs into supersymmetric pairs or sparticles having new properties altogether. This allows all these quantum field corrections to cancel (magically).

A web page that I looked at recently (the one where the "sheep" came from) has this quotation from PAM Dirac...
"[Renormalization is] just a stop-gap procedure. There must be some fundamental change in our ideas, probably a change just as fundamental as the passage from Bohr's orbit theory to quantum mechanics. When you get a number turning out to be infinite which ought to be finite, you should admit that there is something wrong with your equations, and not hope that you can get a good theory just by doctoring up that number."

- Paul Adrien Maurice Dirac, Nobel laureate 1933

He was referring to Quantum Field Theory. I intuitively feel that he was right.

This page above comes from Chris Oakley's area and he has a bit to say about "renormalization" that makes a good read. He is a bit harsh on the theory though. I would say that while what he says strikes a chord in me the theory probably would not have gotten anywhere without Quantum Field Theory. Now you say the theory is switching from linear to non-linear and things will happen when the everything gets shaken up. It would be a good time to "rediscover" a non-linear theory that has the answers "built in from the bottom up ... just about now please... biggrin.gif wink.gif
Good Elf
Hi yquantum,

Duh... huh.gif That was me "up there"... slip of the finger there... wub.gif

Cheers
yquantum
wink.gif No problem, we have been there and done that. Remember the _.

Have to make this fast, so watch out for the typos.

smile.gif Good Elf,

In QM, the vacuum is not really a vacuum as you well know. The VP we are talking about here is from the Q effects which as results shows [we can bring in UCT later, OK] a teeming sea of VP as it has been stated in many papers & experiments.

So, we have particles and antiparticles which I know you know do not hang around long, which would be an understatement.

But even knowing they are brief, they have an effect on the long lasting particles this is what caused me to be interested in Higgs; [when you dig into Higggs Theory, that is why it is always good to see it from your view, you will begin to see how other dimensions could be within reach of our awareness[M-t]]. The short of it is they influence the interactions of particles as we known them by experiment.

Check into Feynman diagrams, which would bring you up to speed to what is going on. For example: A real physical © can turn into a virtual (e-) and virtual (e+) then back into a © or photon. Awesome stuff, and I am still very much in my field, but I think a great step forward would to tidy up the Standard Model. Eh!

Like I said before, this is not my theory & (E) is what will prove it one day soon I hope, but there could be so much gained in its success. LHC, will be worth the cost. You will see. It is going to help all of us. If I get caught by my wife, I still think you should see what is out there on this subject. It touches everything I have read on this site.

I am like rubber right now, need to rest I am doing this in secret, if my wife knew I was online while on vacation, well so much for vacation. HA!

ciao_
yquantum
cool.gif
Good Elf
Hi yquantum,

Please don't rile your wife... you do not see enough of her as it is.

The Standard Model "is" scary stuff. If there is "new physics"... I admit... it will be all worth it in the end. I will try and set aside my "continuum" ideas a bit and see if I can think about the problem from a particle point of view. This is not my "field" of expertise you realize. Just recapping the original question...
QUOTE (yquantum Posted: Dec 9 2005+ 05:03 PM)
...The nucleus is made of protons and neutrons. Each proton (or neutron) has about two thousand times the mass of an electron. We believe we understand why the nucleus is so small. We do not know, however, how the particles get their masses.

I believe what I have read not all on this PhysOrg. Forum, this question touches each one in a very quantitative way, if we can speculate in theory on how mass comes about then maybe all the other questions can have a premise to build on.

I will have a look at the Feynman Diagrams regarding the Higgs. You know I much prefer "electrons" and "photons" where we sort of know a bit more of this stuff. It all comes down to that "inner process" mentioned by de Broglie that will probably end up within the evanescent zone of the b-quarks... Each b-quark for me is something I would rather not deal with. The concept of jets of free quarks is pretty "scary" and I do not understand b-jets yet in any "fundamental" way other than what I can read or be told. The massive energies that the these quarks carry is "seen" in it's evanescent zone where Ed Witten is working pretty feverishly.

These concepts carry paradigms I do not usually work with. What I would like to say is although the usual theory of Higgs Particles stipulate that it carries zero spin... this makes no sense to me and since spin is the primary cause of mass in the six extra dimensions I think that the theories have that bit wrong there. Yes... there is "zero spin" observed from 3D + T space-time as a "shadow".. but in the higher dimensional "quantum" space of those six dimensions spin is a temporal and spatial function that "sum" (root sum of squares) when projected onto the flat-space of space-time to a null vector... losing all primary information about the spin source. As I have said before IMHO mass is an "optical effect" as seen from the non-inertial laboratory frame. The higher dimensional spaces are curved and are thus "optical cavities". Internally from their own "perspective" they are a "flat-space" like our bosonic Universe. Within the particle.. symmetry is "restored" and is "optically broken" as seen from other frames of reference by the curvature. This is a highly "non-linear" process since we are speaking about "bubble" particles here, the use of Fourier and Euler is more the fare than Tensors. Now I know you probably do not want to hear that because it releases the cat among the pigeons.

As mentioned previously de Broglie knew that the relative position/velocity of the group velocity on his pilot wave relative to the phase velocity was related to the mass of the particle. This is within the traveling evanescent zone of a particle no matter what it is... even quarks. If we then consider the "internal" frame of reference of the traveling particle within it's own inertial frame... it's mass is undisturbed as seen from it's own point of view. This would be it's rest mass bare of any of the encumbrances of "virtual particles"... Now step back into your laboratory frame of reference we see a greatly "enhanced" mass... the pointers for these internal properties have been dragged away from what should be their mean positions as "relativistic traveling phenomena". This "must be an "optical effect" and is because the energy being transferred to the heavy particle is red shifted to almost zero frequency and does not transfer the required impulse for effective acceleration. Yet the "bean counting" must go on... this is what appears as "E = MCuser posted image" mass. They are dimensional boundaries where to proceed beyond their "dimensional edges" moves these pointers on the particle wave dramatically relative to "external onlookers" as you try to proceed beyond the boundary of a "pocket universe". It really doesn't matter it you think you are on the "inside or the outside" of this system, in higher dimensions everything is on a single "hypersurface".

Though sharing the "bulk" all this "mass" is stored in the extra six dimensions. This spin energy is inflating those "bubbles" and with very energetic processes this must really "extend" the "pocket" dramatically. These boundaries are beyond an operational light cone, a Rindler Space or foliation, but they will still affect energy processes as seen from the laboratory frame. Suddenly energy processes take on "range"... the further you go away from the boundary it exacts a price as "effective Einsteinian mass". You measure this in the laboratory as if it actually has more mass (stored in the "system" of higher dimensional "complex" space). When the particle is finally brought back onto the 3D + T laboratory frame by "hitting a wall" the potential energy stored is returned kinetically ... like in a spring. Lots of virtual photons are released.

Still before I shoot my mouth off anymore about "mass" I will have a look at the Feynman Diagrams. Please guide me back on track if I have wandered too far.... Duh!... what was that question now? unsure.gif

Cheers
Zephir
First of all, suppose the particles are having an internal energy, we needn't the Higgs boson for explanation of its mass, due to the formula E = mc^2, no question about it.

The problem of Higgs mechanism arises with the gauge bosons and top quark, which are having a unusually high mass, being acting just at very short distances (not above 1/1000 of atom nuclei diameter). But the original Higgs mechanism doesn't explains the mass as the whole, but rather subtle lattice effect (you can consider for example explanation given here using the famous "cocktail party model"). I believe, the space-time fabric can exhibit such effect, but the true explanation of the high gauge boson mass is somewhere else.

User posted image

By the Aether wave theory the vacuum is formed by the spacetime waves, which are behaves like system of massive particles, so called preons. The motion across such field is accompanied by the vortex motion

user posted image

The gauge bosons transferring the energy to the very short distances, so that the vorticity of this motion is strongly emphasized. And the internal vortex motion gives the mass to the particles, not the Higgs mechanism.

Can the Higgs boson/mechanism still exists, after than? Yes, as I'm expecting, the spacetime waves are aranged to the semiregullar grid like the gravity loops (see the picture above), but I'm expecting, the effect of such grid to the boson mass will be rather subtle.
fivedoughnut
I've a feeling the premise of force carrying particles, now widely accepted by the scientific community is utterly wrong.... simply stemming fom a simple inability to think beyond 3 dimensions. Therefore gravitons, Z -bosons etc are in my opinion, mechanisms of error.

Why bother having these particles when energy could be transmitted via higher dimensional "field" systems.

This of course has nothing to do with my T.O.E.......and I'm not just saying that laugh.gif
Zephir
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+Dec 11 2005, 12:17 PM)
This of course has nothing to do with my T.O.E.......and I'm not just saying that  laugh.gif

If u believe, the particles are "doughnuts", you need a mechanism how to explain it's inertia by the internal vorticity effect. But, if you have look at the animation above, the bosone wave vorticity requires the massive "black dots" existence by such a way, the Aether environment behaves like elastic fluid!

It means, without massive environment formed by the particles you cannot postulate the vorticity at all - this conclusion has nothing to do with the hidden dimension concept, after all - it's solely 3D effect. But I believe, these particles are just gravitons (i.e. spacetime wave pockets, exhibiting gravity), being able to behave as both the waves, both the massive particles at the same time as a direct consequence of general relativity theory.

It's obvious, the Higgs bosone existence is somewhat redundant here, just because the single space-time deformation can act here as the primitive massive particle alone.
fivedoughnut
QUOTE (Zephir+Dec 11 2005, 12:39 PM)
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+Dec 11 2005, 12:17 PM)
This of course has nothing to do with my T.O.E.......and I'm not just saying that  laugh.gif

If u believe, the particles are "doughnuts", you need a mechanism how to explain it's inertia by the internal vorticity effect. But, if you have look at the animation above, the bosone wave vorticity requires the massive "black dots" existence by such a way, the Aether environment behaves like elastic fluid!

It means, without massive environment formed by the particles you cannot postulate the vorticity at all - this conclusion has nothing to do with the hidden dimension concept, after all - it's solely 3D effect. But I believe, these particles are just gravitons (i.e. spacetime wave pockets, exhibiting gravity), being able to behave as both the waves, both the massive particles at the same time as a direct consequence of general relativity theory.

It's obvious, the Higgs bosone existence is somewhat redundant here, just because the single space-time deformation can act here as the primitive massive particle alone.



I must admit your Aether waves are interesting, especially when they can act as a medium/carrier for other "sub harmonic" waves.....neat idea...might even steal that concept! wink.gif
yquantum
biggrin.gif Good Elf, fivedoughnut & Zephir,

We are leaving for a function, and then a special get together with friends. I would like for you gentlemen or ladies [with pseudo names one can never be sure] to consider something, I am walking out the door.

Oh, my wonderful wife is given the green light as long as it does not ?.

Great advice Good Elf, she is awesome still after all these years.

I might be gone for a while, but what I have read I would like for you all to consider a few different views just to keep it balance. New ideas should always be welcomed. I want to think on what has been said. unsure.gif

ciao_
yquantum cool.gif
Montec
Hello all
Lets see:

Fission of uranium (U235 + neutron(n)) = (Xe140) + (Sr94) + 2n (one of many possible fission products)
Baryon count (92 protons(p) + 144n) = ((54p + 86n) + (38p + 56n) + 2n)
92p + 144n = 92p + 144n : NO MASS CHANGE

Radioactive decay Xe140 = Ce140 + 4e(beta decay : electron/anti-neutrino "pair")
Baryon count 54p + 86n = 58p + 82n :MASS LOSS Electron/anti-neutrino pairs.

The neutron has 1 "up" quark and 2 "down" quarks. The proton has 2 "up" quarks and 1 "down" quark.
Quark conversion from "down" to "up" via "weak" force results in mass loss via energetic electron/anti-neutrino pair.

Now for the tricky part. The "up" and "down" quarks can combine in groups of three using "color" forces (gluons) or combine in groups of two using quark/anti-quark pairs (more gluons). You can also get groups of five quarks. The really interesting thing is that the mass of the combined quarks depends on the current interaction within the quark combination and not just the individual quarks.

Therefor, mass may result from the interaction of the "gluon" matrix and space/time. Also of note is that the gluon (color force) does not decrease with distance, it may in fact increase.

It should be noted that gluon matrix is not static.

Questions:

Now does E=mc^2 apply to the quarks, to the gluons, or to both? And how does it apply?

Do quarks have mass, if so how much mass and is it the same for each type of quark?

Do gluons belong to the class of "virtual" particles?

Are leptons affected by gravity as they are held to have some mass (but is it the same type of mass)?

How does the gluon matrix react with space/time?

What is space/time?

PS: From my understanding the Higgs boson is needed to validate the union of the "electrodynamic" and "weak" force theories.

smile.gif
Zephir
QUOTE (Montec+Dec 11 2005, 09:20 PM)
Do gluons belong to the class of "virtual" particles?

Yes, of course - the gluons, like all bosons are virtual particles, are having the vortex nature like other common particles, but are paired into form of so called Cooper pairs, connecting the particles together.

user posted image

The gluon vortexes are denoted by the blue color on the above picture.

QUOTE (Montec+Dec 11 2005, 09:20 PM)
does E=mc^2 apply to the quarks, to the gluons, or to both?


The gluon existence is strongly affected so called delocalization energy, because is formed by the combination of the EMG and weak interaction, which is strongly repulsive at low distances. Therefore gluons works similar to the delocalization energy in the electron orbitals and the overall energy of the system strongly depends on its size and the amount and the color charge of quarks which are bounded together.
Good Elf
Hi Montec and yquantum,

Good summary and very good points. I dislike trying to mix metaphors but the gluon's or color force work like photons within the realm of the composite particles. Photons are the carrier of electromagnetic forces and they exhibit that "force" which is the same as force times the time in the near field and this could be via virtual or real photons. They "propagate" in the far field.

Maybe the gluon's have the same property. IMHO the reason why the quarks "stick together" is a property of the frame of reference of the three sub-particles. Lets say the quarks are photons that have undergone relativistic "boosts" and spin to neatly wrap the EM fields onto the outside of the particle "ball" in the ratio of twists of the internal field to loops in the internal geometry as per the paper on the topological photon producing "electrons". Judicious twists and loops would "expose 1/3 or 2/3 + or - charge total instead of 3/3 charge. This is relate to the number of dimensions (I think) the particle is embedded in). Three of these particles will sum to a single positive charge for protons or zero charge for neutrons (and of course the -ve charge as well). The question is why are these nearly the same mass (protons and neutrons)? This may be because they differ only very slightly internally in geometry and the charges are not the big deal with their repulsion. That is where the "gluon's" come in. What if those gluon's were "fictitious forces" created from the observation of the particles externally from relativistic considerations due to frame of reference. Internally these three "primary" photons exhibit Bose-Einstein Statistics and occupy the same spatial interior space while observation externally the "particle" will exhibit charge and appear "solid" and exhibit Fermi-Dirac Statistics.

The interior "landscape" of the particle is a flat-space where the three photons are "asymptotically free" to move in a flat-space created by the closed 6 dimensional cavity of higher dimensional spaces (beyond space-time's three spatial dimensions). As "ordinary" photons (seen from the internal point of view) they have no mutual repulsion as such so the color force "disappears" as seen from within that cavity (identify this with a fictitious charge due to the standing wave). Externally observed outside the dimensional space of the cavity the charges "appear" because of the appearance of the topological "wrapping" of these photons and this gives rise to the different statistics (Fermi-Dirac) because relative to external observers the dimensional space is now "curved" (mass sources apparently contained in there). This will give the impression of relativistic mass. Now this is a "fiction" of the frame of reference but must be due to energy stored "potentially" between the two systems as seen in General Relativistic terms. The gluon's (three of them... then are "twisted higher dimensional photons" moving "freely" through "flat-space" within a particle space made up of 6 dimensions. This shows why the quarks individually show no mutual repulsion and indeed are at a lower energy than "free quarks"... free quarks would be difficult since they are related to the dimensions the particles exist and confined in and the gluon's are "photons" free on the interior of the particle and obey Bose-Einstein statistics.

Now I know this flies in the face of all particle theory but it does explain why these things seem to be in the first place and it is quantum postulate free... surely a bonus... and gives an insight into the internal processes of quarks, photons, gluon's and protons and neutrons (and obviously electrons and photons) why they attract, why they repel and what is the hidden nature of all forms of binding energy. It also indicates the interior states of the particles are in many respects similar to that in the electronic structure of the atoms at the next level up in the Universe (the entire atom). This is "good" since this confirms the link between electromagnetism and the strong force and the weak force (I realize this does not answer all questions but I am sure that we could all proceed from there). All this in a six dimensional space of quanta unseen in the 3D + T space-time we are used to as the "bulk" and "hidden from it" except as "shadows" on space-time.

Is this a "String Theory" or a super-symmetry theory?... I can't honestly say. It has 10 dimensions though! That is a "good" number. It is also in a highly curved environment and non-linear. The real bonus is it is an intuitive model that is particle free and divorced from the jargon of particles such as color force and gluon's etc.) but would be more familiar territory to those with "old school" concepts and an idea of conformal geometry. If you can think in these terms it really doesn't matter if you believe it or not since nobody can understand quantum physics anyway this is an operational model.

Now you can see the different relativistic domains (internal and external) and then speak about how near and far field effects should operate in their appropriate realms.

I would really like some feedback here since where I am going needs to "sound OK" because modelling the Higgs in gedanken experiments is going to take a "big step". Please give your reasons for any modifications rather than a bland "yes" or "no"... please smile.gif

Cheers
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

Surely these cooper pairs would only occur in supercondensed states of matter. In HEP these probably would be outside their normal domain? Also photon bosons would be virtual and real so gluons will be virtual and real as well?? I thought Cooper Pairs referred to pairs of charged quarks not pairs of gluons? What has superconductivity to do with HEP? Just asking...

Gluons act in threesomes don't they?

Cheers
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 10:35 AM)
In HEP these probably would be outside their normal domain?

Nope Good_Elf, the super-condensed state is a quite relative term, it's just result of local equilibrium of forces which are both attractive, both repulsive. For example all vertex pairs in fluids are Cooper pairs, they occurs as the result of spontaneous symmetry breaking, thus decreasing the energy dissipation. Looks strangely as the turbulency are connected with the high energy density and the energy loss - but its true, lot of animals (dolphins, owlets) are using the vortexes for decreasing of energy consumption a noise during motion. From the same reason the superfluids are created by the vortexes as by the lowest energy state possible.

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 10:35 AM)
Also photon bosons would be virtual and real so gluons will be virtual and real as well?? 


Photons are virtual particles too, like all bosons are just virtual particles (did you catch the photon ever?) - but its energy content makes them observable and their interference with the space-time fabric gives the character of well defined particles at the higher energies. The energy density of so called gauge bosons is so high, it makes a perturbance in massive (6D+) spacetime fabric, thus exhibiting mass (see the animation above).

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 10:35 AM)
What has superconductivity to do with HEP

Nothing, but super-fluidity instead, the vacuum behaves like the superfluid formed by the paired vortexes (virtual particle mixture) by the same way as the atom nuclei can be considered as the small droplet of superfluid formed by the quarkgluon plasma. The observable particles are just single metastable vortexes, exhibiting asymetries observable as the mass and charge.

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 10:35 AM)
Gluons act in threesomes don't they?


The gluons acting in pairs too, forming mesons - but due to delocalization energy the larger systems are preferred (iron or nickel atoms nuclei in particular), making the system as spherical as possible. The gluon exchange can be described as the neutral pion exchange with both the leptonic, both the EMG charge in dynamic equlibrium.

user posted image
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

QUOTE (Zephir Posted on Dec 12 2005+ 11:14 AM)
Photons are virtual particles too, like all bosons are just virtual particles (did you catch the photon ever?)

But they are "real" whereas true virtual particles have only transitory existence given by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Now I realize we never "see" any Virtual Photons and this disturbs me... we DO see "non-virtual" photons... quite literally through an interaction inside our eye as the phenomenon of light.

The "virtual photons" can never be seen (a problem there if you ask me because they are so fleeting) but something is producing "force" as explained previously in the "evanescent region of interaction". It is usually not in the optical region but I guess it would be "seen" (in the more general sense of the word) since it is carrying/transferring energy. On the other hand there is that other kind of Virtual Photon that "pops in and out of reality". The energy it carries is "statistical" and the phenomenon is highly local to the origin of an influence (our origin of influence is... say a quark or something very energetic such as the Higgs). Where they come from is an interesting question. It is worth thinking about for a few seconds...

One way to possibly explain it is that this is the emergence of the one particle multiply in time at the one place. This is some discrete function affecting the localization of the one particle. Another possibility is they are "raised" from the sea of potentiality... sounds "difficult", pure creation spontaneously (my beanie is twitching and it is never wrong... he he he!). What it really sounds like is that if we had a real "butterfly" there.... and it is the source of some strong higher dimensional disturbance several "images" of this one "butterfly" may emerge to cancel the influence of that disturbance causally. Given the right "impulse" a second butterfly may be brought into pure and permanent existence if charge and parity could be satisfied. This would be time travel for the "butterfly", it would be possible for it to meet itself. We know we can do this trick with photons, electrons, protons and other particles. What is so wrong with a higher dimensional approach since mobility in time would be a feature of extra dimensions as I have previously stated... not available in lower dimensions so time is only 1/2 dimensional... but if you could access all 9 dimensions... well...

It is necessary (I am led to believe) that to "instantiate" particles and antiparticles from a pair of photons... a real particle in the vicinity is required effectively to act as a "template" for the particle antiparticle creation event. After this you can choose which of the two "real" particles you care to leave behind... the "original" or the "duplicate".... just "feed" the antiparticle to the one you don't want. According to Feynman-Wheeler Theory one of these will be from another time (advanced or retarded potentials), and one will be from a mirror universe (also an advanced or retarded potential). The "cloud" of identical virtual particles gives you a "free choice" as to what time to choose the particle from (maybe). The particles are not "destroyed" but the particles are transferred back to where they have come from and you get your "deposit" back on the transaction. These should be "Carrollian white rabbits" each carrying fob watches and you could then tell which one you want from the time on his watch.

I am still waiting for comments on all of this. You should all be gagging by now! smile.gif

Cheers
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 12:06 PM)
..to "instantiate" particles and antiparticles from a pair of photons... a real particle in the vicinity is required effectively to act as a "template" for the particle antiparticle creation event..

Vacuum is extremely elastic environment. Here's no geometric limit for its deformation by such a way, whenever energetic boson wave passes through vacuum, it creates a "donut" shaped vortex-like deformation of space, very close to this one which are inside of real particles.

user posted image user posted image

The vortex perturbations are created always in antisymmetric pairs (fermion - anti-fermion), having opposite charge and the can be separated using a strong electrostatic or magnetic field after passing such energetic wave through vacuum. No real particle is required, as no vortex in vicinity is required for making Karman vortex in water, its solely spontaneous process based on the gravity waves inertia in vacuum.
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

Ahh!... the vacuum is not that flexible in 3D + T "Space-time". It is not so easy to blow bubbles in "Space-time". We have had this discussion before and I would say that only is the "Uberspace" of six extra dimensions... real dimensions... flexible enough to deform in just such a manner (so easily).

As to the fact that "no real particle is required"... I see a "source" from which those pretty vortices are being expelled... I would call that "something" that is being used as the template. Now if it is not "Space-time" or "water" you maintain that it is some other "material" that you term "aether". Michelson-Morely Experiment put an end to such a material medium. You must be speaking about "something else". I would say it was those "sloppy" "floppy" higher dimensions. wink.gif Real particles come from real dimensions so particle .. anti-particle creation comes from some other "spaces" which house real "particles". It makes sense.... not parametric spaces but real spaces since all particles have their own real dimensions too and they "appeared" from out of "nowhere" and strangely are identical to ordinary "template" particles.

While I realize that this involves an undeniable symmetry operations... it is conceivable that higher dimensions will automatically introduce new physics as well with the situation of Higgs production. This extra "temporal" mobility in higher dimensions has "always" been seen as a rather prosaic demonstration of E = MCuser posted image. Relativity also is the starting point of extra dimensions with Gravitation in 3D + T "Space-time". Why should such energy produce "particles" at all? Maybe they are already there... that would explain it.. In this interpretation it is the same particle seen emerging to potentially cancel some temporal or spatial energy "paradox" or "imagery" from those higher dimensions. We know that the "particles" arise spontaneously but they do not violate the Uncertainty Principle.
user posted image
This shows an uncertainty in both Time and Energy. It seems logical to assert as a first physics hypothesis (rather than another postulate) that the particles come from out of time due to a temporal need to satisfy a Hamiltonian Expectation of energy that is "linked" with itself (the self energy term). Not only do each of the virtual particles carry "energy" they also carry a relativistic "phase" in time. This immediately links back to de Broglies paper (above) and to it's intrinsic significance relating to those "internal processes" and to the emergence of "mass". I quote from my earlier post...
QUOTE (Good Elf Posted: Dec 10 2005+ 04:13 AM)
What I would now like to "illuminate" is Louis de Broglie's original paper (or is that the back of a cigarette packet) on this process.. it is available on the web here...
RADIATION � Waves and Quanta - Translated from Comptes rendus, Vol. 177, 1923, pp. 507-510
see also...
WAVE MECHANICS Prince Louis de Broglie
... and it is easy to understand, unlike a lot of "nonsense" nowadays. When you have read it go to the animation and have a look... then consider the process of altering the mass of a particle and consider where it is coming from. I think that will put you all on the track toward a "relativistic" understanding of quantum physics. This idea is still as good today as it has ever been all the "new age" ideas must do a lot better at an explanation than they have presently. It is simple and it is straightforward and it is Einstein (with E = hf thrown on for good measure).

The explanation on the page about the wave motion MUST be read and contemplated. It is not a "model" view of a particle, or what a particle looks like, zephir has "pictures" for you if that is the need,  it is a conceptual view and I want you to distinguish between the various ideas...
De Broglie Phase Wave Animation
A "further detail" is here for your philosophical consideration...
QUOTE (http://www.davis-inc.com/physics/+)
A consequence of de Broglie's reasoning is that a phase wave, often referred to as the "pilot" wave, appears to accompany the particle.  This is made evident in de Broglie's 1923 Comptes rendus  note.  Yet, modern introductions to quantum mechanics often fail to emphasize that this phase wave arises as an inevitable consequence of de Broglie's assumption of the internal periodic phenomenon of the particle and the transformation laws of the special theory of relativity.  A notable exception is "Introduction to Quantum Mechanics," A. P. French and Edwin F. Taylor, W. W. Norton & Co., pp. 55-62 (1978).

Given de Broglie's assumptions, quantum mechanics, which is to say the study of the behavior and interpretation of the phase wave, is the study of an inherently relativistic phenomenon.  In this sense, if it were not for relativistic effects, quantum (wave) mechanics would not exist!  Yet, the phrase "non-relativistic quantum mechanics" is a commonplace.  Clearly, this phrase should be understood to refer to the quantum mechanical description of particles moving at speeds very much less than the speed of light, but not to imply that relativistic effects are ever of no consequence in quantum mechanics.

An example is provided by the orbits of the electron in the hydrogen atom.  Even for the innermost orbits, the speed of the electron is very much less than the speed of light.  While the motion of the electron is, therefore, "non-relativistic" in the sense that the relativistic corrections to the classically (non-quantum mechanical) predicted behavior of the electron would be inconsequential, relativistic effects in fact dominate.  That is, the phase wave associated with the electron, which leads directly to the quantization of the allowed orbits, is, according to de Broglie's model, relativistic in origin.  If not for the relativistic transformations that give rise to the phase wave, quantization of the orbits and, hence, the spectrum of the hydrogen atom would not occur.  Clearly then, relativistic effects cannot be considered to be inconsequential in determining the electronic properties of the hydrogen atom, even though the speed of the orbiting electron is very much less than the speed of light.


.... "Boom Boom!" smile.gif

Cheers
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 03:15 PM)
...the vacuum is not that flexible in 3D + T "Space-time". It is not so easy to blow bubbles in "Space-time"....

Wake up - nobody speaks about 3D space-time, nobody "blows a bubbles" in it... wink.gif You're talking with ghosts only... smile.gif

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 03:15 PM)
...Michelson-Morely Experiment put an end to such a material medium.....


It's evident, such environment doesn't interact with the light, so it cannot serve as the reference frame for the light observations... The M-M experiment proves the existence of such environment instead, you fool... rolleyes.gif Do you believe for example, the underwater can serve as the reference frame for the surface wave measurement? Or are you believing, the underwater waves are trappable by the surface waves? They just making the uncertainty in its location/speed, which you're talking about - no less, no more.

If you're not able to realize the underwater world using just by surface wave, You aren't able to dispute such model - you have simply no imagination for it. Not all people are able to draw picture in perspective for example, it happens sometimes and business goes as usual... But after then the math won't help You with understanding of 3D perspective. You can collect a thousands of citations and formulas about such 3D space, but you'll never able to bring up such world for orientation and it has no sense to spend the time for some extrapolations.

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 03:15 PM)
...Why should such energy produce "particles" at all?.....


Why not? If the surface water model is real model coming from everyday life, why do you think, the vacuum cannot be described by such model? Why do you believe instead, some abstract non-existing model will work better for you, after than?

After all, I'm not here to waste both my both your time by disputing my model with You, just to explain it for others.
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 12 2005, 03:15 PM)
Not only do each of the virtual particles carry "energy" they also carry a relativistic "phase" in time.

Its a normal behavior of massive waves, after all. Let's try to read something about Rayleigh's waves and have look at this applet, for example. I'm using the deBroglie mass wave in my models from the very beginning as the supergravity model.

user posted image
yquantum
huh.gif Hi guys,

Very weak, just wanted to let you know, the adage is correct. 'Greeks bearing Gifts', I have a severe case of food poison. There is a wealth of knowledge on this thread, I truly wish that you gentlemen would have started it. If you do not feel the need to investigate the concept, then it will be filed into the Higgs Basket! HA! laugh.gif

With your intellect, you can achieve much on this tread. I must get better now, please just think about it.

You & many more could bring (m) to this problem.

ciao_
y sad.gif blink.gif typos to be expected.......?
Zephir
Why the fermions are massive? Because they're females, in fact... ph34r.gif
MDT
Where the confusion may come from is that mass is a concept that attempts to describe the substance of nature that can be acted on by the gravitational force. Until gravity is integrated it remains a concept subject to speculation. Once should not mistake a concept with reality because their may be no connection.
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

OK...
QUOTE (Zephir Posted on Dec 12 2005+ 03:57 PM )
Wake up - nobody speaks about 3D space-time, nobody "blows a bubbles" in it...

Lets determine this once and for all... how many dimensions... real physical dimensions... like in Space-time (3D + T) does your deformable "aether" really have. Not parameters ... physical dimensions only please?

Since real space has no physical surface (like the sea) what "surface" are you referring to here with your "aether"?

The statement that energy produces particles being natural rather than a bit of a "surprise" is the question to ask.... It is the same as Newton saying gravity is natural as a phenomenon but does not investigate the nature of the mass and where it arises and "why" it attracts. Particles "arise" with mass and charge from "energy" that does not have any rest mass or charge... this to me is a "surprise" from an ontological point of view.

To me your "assumptions" regarding those "fluidic" analogies do not answer the questions I would naturally raise about the real physics behind the process. You never relate them to proven understanding such as Special and General Relativity and you use the idea of "aether" which should be "defunct".

Cheers
Good Elf
Hi yquantum,

QUOTE
Very weak, just wanted to let you know, the adage is correct. 'Greeks bearing Gifts', I have a severe case of food poison

Please look after yourself... don't worry about the thread until you are well. I do not want to do this "alone". I will suspend everything until you are better. Food poisoning is a serious matter.

Take care now.
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 13 2005, 12:39 AM)
..how many dimensions... real physical dimensions... like in Space-time (3D + T) does your deformable "aether" really have.

Concerning the physical dimensions you know maybe the following scheme, twelve dimensions should be enough. We are living at the 6D surface, which are calling the vacuum. But if you want to talk about the whole 12D environment, you need to use a different term to prevent confusion - this is a reason, I'm using the Aether word for it.

User posted image

But the surface of atoms or surface of water forming other dimensions, too - just not formed only by convolution of spacetime, but the whole principle retains the very same. After all, the number of dimensions is not limited, just energetically disadvantageous due to topology and the action minimization principle.

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 13 2005, 12:39 AM)
..Since real space has no physical surface (like the sea) what "surface" are you referring to here with your "aether"?


I believe, it contains the real physical surface of the convoluted gravity loops, so called twistors, or quantum loops or Calabi-Yau manifolds. As a general rule, all energy in space is transferred by the same surface (in general meaning of such world). Even the atom orbitals are surfaces, so the energy/mass is always "spongy".

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 13 2005, 12:39 AM)
..To me your "assumptions" regarding those "fluid" analogies do not answer the questions I would naturally raise about the real physics behind the process.


It's well obvious even at the case of water vortices, if some energy occurs, it always rotates about some center. The water model gives us a lot of understanding of the HEP. Suppose the wave deformations of space are massive (exhibiting) gravity, you can extrapolate the bulk proprieties of such system as complex elastic liquid, i.e. system of oriented massive particles.

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 13 2005, 12:39 AM)
..The statement that energy produces particles being natural rather than a bit of a "surprise" is the question to ask....


The general relativity is clear - where is mass, here is a energy too. We have to found energy inside particles, or something is wrong on GR...

But for me the energy existence inside of particle isn't surprise even from geometric point of view. Suppose the Aether is massive continuum formed by tiny massive particles, there is not a lot of ways, how to create the particle like structures using such continuum. The vortex rings is one of them - and the vortices always contains energy.

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 13 2005, 12:39 AM)
..You never relate them to proven understanding such as Special and General Relativity ....


Not even the SR/GR, but the Quantum theory can be understood using a elastic phase interface model, it means, you can always postulate the though experiment for explaining some the relativity or quantum theory particular problem using just real world examples. It's nice, isn't it? It seems, the world is really understandable and rather simple in its basic principles.

But it need a one thing, Good Elf. You have be always to prepared to switch the role of observer. After than, the 2D world of surface marsh treader is the relativistic by the same way, as our vacuum, just the role of light should be replaced by the surface waves, for example.
darkmatters73
Greetings Zephir, Good Elf, MDT, Y(get well soon) and physics explorers,

I do not understand how we can form such a postulation on dimensions, when we have not even seen all that is with in our reach by experiments to its fullest understanding.

You talk about vacuum as if you can explain the teaming unpredictable QM effect, yet you seem to dodge the very issue of how mass comes about.

There has to be a better way to bring it home to logic, not intuitive but balance on both sides of the equation. I do not comment as you well know, but when there is a question no matter what the site, I will ask.

I keep searching for a door to open the way?

Best,
darkmatters
question please
I understand the best one can, on such a small scale, what about Planck's length or so give or take a few 00's?

But if I am not correct please help me on this, you men & women are talking about a certain energy that would break symmetry and from what I have read in this section of the site, and she or he is sick, it much be about 200 or so GeV's?

Do we have that kind of power that can go that deep? Quantum Mechanics as I go through the math is like probabilities as best.

Oh, how do I register on this site, I like what I am reading........

R?
"THEY"
My prayers to you for a speedy recovery yquantum!
dsanco
QUOTE (question please+Dec 13 2005, 09:39 PM)
I understand the best one can, on such a small scale, what about Planck's length or so give or take a few 00's?

But if I am not correct please help me on this, you men & women are talking about a certain energy that would break symmetry and from what I have read in this section of the site, and she or he is sick, it much be about 200 or so GeV's?

Do we have that kind of power that can go that deep? Quantum Mechanics as I go through the math is like probabilities as best.

Oh, how do I register on this site, I like what I am reading........

R?

Remember that 6,250,000,000,000,000,000 (6.25 ^18)electron Volts are 1 Volt
Electro Statics is a field that routinely works with thousands and even millions of Volts. String theory states that at the plank length forces are about 15 tons per dimension in ten dimensions. would 200GeV be enough to "break" symmitry?
Zephir
QUOTE (dark matter73+Dec 13 2005, 08:20 PM)
...if you can explain the teaming unpredictable QM effect...

The unpredictability of so called QM effect coming right from hidden dimensions "existence", which are deforming our space time by the similar way, as the Brownian motion deforms water surface. It's a gravity micro-lensing effect, similar to this one of the dark matter.

User posted image

QUOTE (they+)
...would 200GeV be enough to "break" symmitry...


The Planck energy is of course small , but the quantum effect are observable even at the macroscopic scales, for example the so called magnetic domains are solely quantum effect and they can be observed by the naked eye and magnetic fluid. The Brownian motion alone is the result of quantum effect too and it can be observedmacroscopically in Petri dish in proper arrangement.
darkmatters73
question please, (They-I hope gets better too), GoodElf, zephir, etc.,

Should have just said eveyone.

"question please", go to the top and on left you will see register, click on it and you do not even have to give your first born to become a member. (hope it helps)

If we want to find the Higgs, like dasco stated about GeV is correct. But when it comes to the concern of the physicist working in the area of the Standard Model and possibilities of further discoveries. The "H" particle is the HOLY GRAIL of using the E=energy that dasco made reference too. (I belive it will take 250 & yes we will have it, check into it as soon as LHC is working). You could call it the spontaneous symmetry breaking premise for study & hopes. They think it is for real.......

I believe they do not predict "H", as they do W & Z masses. That is why when CERN<LHC -Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN near Geneva which has been mentioned becomes a data producing particle accelerator we will see. ( I HOPE )/.

We will have the energy to begin the search. This is like the ? of the decade of Particle Phycics, anyone who has read up on this can see the enormous potential.

Best,
darkmatters73
Guest
darkmatters73,

Great/thanks, one more question do I have to post my E-mail or can I have it held private for just the PhyOrg board? Hate junk mail......

I am trying to study this in detail for a project and want to ask many question (best I have seen in a while on this PhyOrg site, but then you all seem to know most the questions and answers. I like that very much.

Do not know if all is correct, but everyone make a person think. But then it makes a person do so much research into the statements made.

Who is sick by the way? Bad?

R?
"THEY"
Guest - I have never had problems with my email here, I want it to be private too. Just don't ever use the "email" function here to get ahold of an individual, always use your "PM" function. Go ahead and click on my signon name and see if you can find anything out about my email address if it helps you with security. I have had NO junk mail. I just get "notified" in my personal email when someone sends me a PM.

It is yquantum (the thread starter) who is sick. He has food poisoning...
Guest
Thank you "THEY"

R?
MDT
If we look at matter, historically in recent history, matter or mass was at one time equated with weight. Or mass times the acceleration due to gravity will equal weight. Now if matter, at its most fundamental level, is composed of energy or whatever, that whatever also needs to be directly impacted by gravity or else the overall object would have no weight. In other words, if matter was composed of say energy, then matter, at its most fundamental level, would act like energy when it is in small gravitational fields similar to the earth. The object should float or go into space since energy has no mass, i.e, mass of energy =0. This suggests that matter is composed of sub particles still composed of mass so that even the smallest gravitational fields will give the substance weight. Or mass itself is a fundamental entity which can be subdivided but will always be mass.

There are only three fundamental entities, mass, distance and time. Each can be subdivided but will always be mass, distance and time. These three are the only things affected by special relativity and changes of reference. All the rest of the variables remain fixed within all references, allowing the laws of physics to be the same in all reference, implying the rest of the variables being various combinations of these three basic units.
Zephir
QUOTE (MDT+Dec 14 2005, 06:48 PM)
There are only three fundamental entities, mass, distance and time. Each can be subdivided but will always be mass, distance and time.

Just the two: distance and time, the mass is just frequency of space changes with time. At the very beginning of universe, no mass existed.
yquantum
sad.gif Hi guys,

Still getting better & Zephir as sick as I was a little humor came to me about you request before I should eat. HA!

Thanks for the kind words, not out of the woods yet, but will be soon. Great nurse.

Just for your consideration!

Maybe we could say there is 3 fundamental forces? Strong Nuclear Force [SNF], Magnetism, Electric force & Weak Subnuclear Interaction [you know what is involved in these], & G [gravity]. There is more to be said about the subatomic world, but if you like we can get into it deeper when you think about this statement.

I listed (G) last, because it is felt due to large objects with mass, if we consider the 4% we know of or the 73% that we do not know darkmatter/energy.

Just something to think about?

Hope to get my strength back soon.

ciao_
yquantum [thank you Good Elf & "THEY"!


darkmatters73
smile.gif Hi Yquantum,

Glad your back, will get the sites to by in house e-mail. You must have read the papers by, Dr. Weinberg, Glashow, and Salam when they picked up the BIG ONE due to there research on weak subnuclear interaction with electromagnetism.

Hope you feel better soon.

These men/women on this thread have great minds & make you wonder what if?

Best
darkmatters73
yquantum
sad.gif OK darkmatters73

It will be a day or so, but I will look for it. Need to rest a little. Thank you again, and yes I know about the Nobel Prize in 1979 I think that was the year.

ciao_
yquantum rolleyes.gif
yquantum
Hi Zephir,

I looked at your statement,
QUOTE
The Brownian motion alone is the result of quantum effect too and it can be observed macroscopically in Petri dish in proper arrangement.


How do you compare the energy with the macro to the sub nuclear level. Could you please explain.

These are two different levels of study. I can get back on the computer now. Please explain this for me.

ciao_
yquantum
Face it Y
Y, ohmy.gif

I have been reading, but no one can handle it Quantum, I am not even going to put my name like I want to stay and mess with there minds. blink.gif

But truth be known, I think they would rather deal with the light physic side of life, like what IF? laugh.gif

You seem to be a good woman/man but you need to get a life, if it takes work to really understand the laws of nature you had better go to another site, they think photons have mass, and mass can go faster than light with the little green men, who have put Aeather/Quantum Theory/Special Theory/ with General Theory of Reality and find the big Rubber Band in the Smallsville of non reality of Super Strings 5/9 or + 1, together in one great novel.

I am sure looking forward to reading it someday. Really go back where you came from. tongue.gif

There is more than particle physics, CERN, or where ever you come from, and if this is what floats your ship, like Higgs then you better go where the pond is bigger. You are wasting your time here.

Sorry to be the one to tell you.

Get well but do not waste your time here. Not to be rude but face it, look at the threads. They are happy so please leave them alone. It is there world and no room for you...................................................Y

If you celebrate a holiday of some kind, best of the best,

Just trying to help you see the big picture,

respect
Face it Y sad.gif
Zephir
QUOTE (yquantum+Dec 15 2005, 02:15 AM)
How do you compare the energy with the macro to the sub nuclear level. Could you please explain.

The forces are cumulative, the Brownian motion of molecules is the result of collective motion of atom orbitals in lot of molecules at the same time. After all, the Casimir force is direct manifestation of gravitons at even lower energy scale and it's macroscopic, too.
Good Elf
Hi yquantum, zephir, THEY, darkmatters73 et al,

I have made a few comments about mass previously. I have the view that the property of mass is like a set of Russian Dolls. "Matter" exhibits "mass" as an external property (a mass source). This is as seen from an external relativistic frame of reference (see the paper by de Broglie previously).
particles have Mass, How? Good Elf
A careful reading of the reference paper will explain all. The mere measurement of Mass does not mean that "ponderable" mass is truly there. I have discussed this at length many times, I consider it as a true "optical illusion". Yet this realm of energy does exist and brute force application of "ponderomotive force" must be accounted for.

Within the higher dimensional realm of a particle (in 10 dimensions) the internal properties of the "particles" assume the properties of the photons that are their basic constituents but "encapsulated" within the dimensional "bosonic trap". So internally they appear "massless" as all photons do. This is analogous to photons inside our Universe being "trapped" within the closed Universe and apparently "uncharged" and "free". In the same way the "electronic structure of atoms" are similar structures in which the properties of those convoluted photons (electrons) lose their charge and mass (and magnetic dipole moment) to be "free" and "propagating" photons once more. That mean that from their point of view (as a photon) they are unable to sense the nuclear charge in the nuclei of atoms and visa versa as well). The charges and the mass arise from our external relativistic frame of reference. These appear through the process of the dimensional trapping which externally leads to wrapping of the photon into a topological form that "exposes" charge on the "outside" with a novel twist in the EM waves standing wave pattern. Here is a pair of eigen states in a hydrogen atom that is showing it's dynamic nature in time. The movement in the complex plane owing to phase should be considered as "higher dimensions".
Superposition state of the hydrogen Quicktime required.

Our entire Universe is a "particle" as well so it will have an "external" mass. Internally we see "photons" and other mass particles (bosons and fermions). All the short range "bosons" come from within those small "mass" particles (other than the Higgs). The long range boson in our Universe is the photon and it has infinite range within the Universe. It would be symmetrical to assume that "extracting" a photon from out Universe into the "outer space" will create a "hard" particle as seen externally. If the particle remained a "boson" it must exhibit range since the topology of the "inner space" of our Universe is different to the topology of the "outer space" of our Universe and this "transfer" will act as a "dimensional wrapper" conferring additional mass. For instance this occurs with the electron... the dimensional wrapper is what "wraps" the photon up after extraction from within some dimensional boundary. Presently this process requires this operation to be carried out resulting in enantiomorphic twins... (particle and antiparticle). This is embodied in the simple rules of charge and spin parity. The deeper link between these processes and of the topological nature of charge and the origin of the spin is where the mystery lies. I do not think this is such a "big deal".

Is it possible that this new particle will be seen as a "functional twin" of the more massive bosons of our internal Universe? What I am assuming here is the size of the Universe as seen on the outside is that of a closed dimensional packet which spins in the six higher dimensions at the speed of light on that boundary. The bulk also spins as well (3D + T Space-time) but only in one plane at a time (just that you can choose any plane). Since the geometry of our Universe is "bosonic" in nature and composed of "empty uncharged space" from our point of view the periphery need only spin once every 50 billion years to be spinning on its periphery at the speed of light. That is the three dimensions of space we are so familiar with. The extra six dimension that are responsible for all the quantum phenomena are as close to us as the "surface" of the Universe everywhere... that is only a very tiny distance away since the surface of the Universe in the six higher dimensions are "deflated" and "vestigial" but are tangential to all points to the space-time. A "local" dimensional "bubble" may be blown in that extra six dimensional space with the expenditure of spin energy.

A sub-atomic particle (because in 6 dimensions it is at the "edge" of that part of it's universe) will spin with the appropriate radius... it's own external radius in all 10 dimensions, six in higher dimensions (deflated dimensions) and three with the period of the three "inflated" dimensions of space-time. This will coincide with the "surface" in 3D + T space-time... at the speed of light on the periphery in both cases. The only difference is the relative radii that these represent. The connection with the three dimensional space-time is that it connects seamlessly with the "bulk" and it is spinning at light speed at the radius of the Universe ® with a period of about 50 billion years, this is not noticeable at our scale of the Universe. The difference in the relative frequency of this large scale spin and the "same universal particle spin" cannot be underestimated. This latter property gives rise to the de Broglie wave particle duality. The bigger the particle the slower the phase "spin" of the particle and thus the higher the internal particle group "spin" according to that paper previously mentioned by de Broglie. We already recognize that de Broglie understood this and represents the relationship between the particles mass and its de Broglie wavelength (of frequency) to the particle velocity.
user posted image
....v would need to be the group velocity of the particle and it's linear speed. Wherever a particle exists it will "inherit" the spin in the higher six dimensions of our Universe (a sort of "Machs Principle" for sub-atomic particles). This endows sub-atomic matter with the property of "intrinsic" spin and leads to quantum properties along with the principal quantum number "n" which comes from the topological property of the external frame of reference as described in de Broglie's paper and the "Bohr Orbit".

We also know (without any fear of contradiction... check your science history books on this ) that this principle is the sole motivation for the Theory of Quantum Mechanics (de Broglie's Postulate)... not as it has been assumed recently due to some tiny infinitesimal and unprovable granularity of "space-time" at the Planck's length. Please note that the simpler "dumb" formulation of this concept cannot lead to any deeper illumination of nature (as stated in the original reference supporting narrative) without the expression of special relativity, which is the real underlying cause of this quantum phenomenon (see the equation above). A description of "nature" that ignores this or hides this fact will surely fail.

Actually there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any such property (Planck granularity) exists at all. It is also very unreasonable to believe that it will ever be within man's ability to show that this relationship exists either... given the potential energy available from our Universe and accessible to man for all time... and I say with some confidence... for millions of years into the future, if man should survive as long. A LHC a billion times larger in size and energy than that planned would not begin to probe those levels of the Universe (the Planck scale). That is why I have personally rejected these "speculative" theories in favor of "operational physics". All would be wise to think carefully on physics based on pipe dreams and misdirections. They are "doomed" as an explanation in a Theory of Everything.

So here we have the source of Quantum Mechanics and it is in the quantum of impulse which is the Planck Constant (not Planck's Length...). This principle of encapsulation dimensionally leads to the property of mass through Einsteins General Relativity... not in "Space-time" but in the "Uberspace" of those six extra dimensions. Curvature of space-time affects particles of all kinds leading to them traveling along geodesics. This is especially true of massless particles as it is of massive particles. Both fall along equivalent geodesics because they both respond only to space-time curvature. Now from the point of view of these particles falling along space-time geodesics, they see space-time as "particularly flat" being in inertial frames of reference. External observers in non-inertial frames of reference see the space-time curvature of these particles but these are "fictitious" forces since they are not experienced by the particle being observed but by the observer frame of reference.

This is easily shown by standing on the surface of the earth and throwing a ball to a friend and seeing the curve of the ball in flight. The curve is a geodesic but freely falling observers see this "geodesic" as a straight line (at least over local areas of space-time). This proves that the observed "force" is fictitious and this is the same analogy when we see "forces" from other non-inertial frames. A further extension of this principle of equivalence is that the mass of a "particle" is internal acceleration observed by an external observer. We know that the internal topological photon is massless and is in free fall in an internal closed space. Therefore no matter how massive it appears it is simply a fiction created by the external non-inertial frame of reference. Taking this one step more... the LHC is not seeing a tremendous mass in a Higgs Particle but the most "extreme fiction" created by special relativity as seen from an most extreme non-inertial frame of reference. Thus "mass" is a pseudo-property of the frame of reference. This comes about because we are providing particles "relativistic boosts" from the laboratory frame of reference with high energy photons. By the use of the transference properties of the comparison between the two frames of reference using Special Theory of Relativity... the photons are unable to boost the velocity of the particle being accelerated because from the particle frame of reference the photons are red shifted to almost radio frequencies and they are no longer able to "scatter" those photons anymore.

I quote from the Wikipedia lesson on the Higgs Mechanism...
QUOTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism+)
he problem in using a spontaneous symmetry-breaking model in particle physics is that, according to a theorem of Jeffrey Goldstone, it predicts a massless scalar particle, which is the quantum excitation along the direction of φ, a so-called Nambu-Goldstone boson. There is no potential energy cost to move around the bottom of the circular valley, so the energy of such a particle is pure kinetic energy, which in quantum field theory implies that its mass is zero. But no massless scalar particles were detected.

A similar problem in Yang-Mills theory, a.k.a. nonabelian gauge theory, was the existence of massless gauge bosons, which (apart from the photon) were also not detected. It was Higgs' insight that when you combined a gauge theory with a spontaneous symmetry-breaking model, the two problems solved themselves rather elegantly. Higgs had found a loophole in the Goldstone theorem: when you couple the scalar to the gauge theory, the massless φ mode of the Higgs combines with the vector boson to form a massive vector boson.

Higgs' original article presenting the model was rejected by Physical Review Letters when first submitted, apparently because it didn't predict any new detectable effects. So he added a sentence at the end, mentioning that it implies the existence of one or more new, massive scalar bosons, which don't form complete representations of the symmetry. These are the Higgs bosons.

Before the symmetry-breaking, all elementary particles (except the Higgs boson itself) are massless and the symmetry is unbroken, much like the rotational symmetry of a pencil that stands on its tip. However, the scalar field spontaneously slides from the point of maximum energy in a randomly chosen direction into a minimum - much like the pencil that eventually falls. Important is that the symmetry doesn't disappear, it is just hidden.

I would point out that a "Merry-Go-Round" (Carousel) has the same sort of spontaneous symmetry breaking phenomenon, or a "Gravitron" or a "Wall of Death", all very amusing. Take a circular rotating table, put a ball bearing at the center and technically it should stay there. Displace it slightly and it will be "flung" to the edge. We call this rotational spin and we understand it as a Coriolis Force. A Coriolis Force is a fictitious force and it is due to acceleration of the "Merry-Go-Round". What I am saying is the Higgs is also a "Coriolis Force" due to the six dimensional spin of the Universe that has been "incorrectly" estimated by measurement to be "zero" when in actual fact is the most important force regarding the property of mass in the Universe. Our Universe is a "Merry-Go-Round" where all sub-pocket Universes (dimensionally closed spaces) have the same spin but at slightly different scales. This is the intrinsic spin. The external observers notice a spinning particle that should be non-inertial and thus they attribute properties to it... non-inertial properties. The massless scalar boson does not exist because the "particle" does not exist but there is a pseudoproperty that substitutes in it place... spin. The Higgs is supposed to be a spin zero particle... if you think that there is no intrinsic spin you might believe that. Add the constant of integration... he he he!

Comments welcome. You saw this here "first".

Cheers
nobody
macro/micro, cosmic/atomic dimensional matrix

size does not matter [“matter” as in doesn't count]
Face it Y
nobody,

I guess you are now a candidate for the upcoming, novel best seller. 'What Matters'? blink.gif

maybe you should catch a ride with the Y. cool.gif

Face it Y ph34r.gif
darkmatters73
ohmy.gif Hello Zephir, & Good Elf,

Zephir:
QUOTE
The forces are cumulative, the Brownian motion of molecules is the result of collective motion of atom orbitals in lot of molecules at the same time. After all, the Casimir force is direct manifestation of gravitons at even lower energy scale and it's macroscopic, too.


Zephir,

You bring in another example that still does not deal with the field of the Higgs.

We all know if you bring two flat, parallel metal plates close to one another, you will find that they are pulled together or pushed apart -- that is, the exert equal and opposite forces on each other. If the plates are not at the same electrostatic potential, charges on the surfaces (charges in a conductor always go to the surface) will either attract or repel one another depending on whether the plates are oppositely or similarly charged.

Zehire the electric force is usually a strong one, and varies relatively slowly with the distance between the plates. If the temperature is above absolute zero, the electrons in the two plates will be more or less mobile, and move about randomly. The resulting fluctuations in their density will give the same effect as a positive or negeative charge, which will attract or repel electrons in the other plate. Zehire this is important the weak, temperature-dependent force is similar to the van der Waals forces between two uncharged atoms. It decreases rapidly as the plates are separated.

This is maybe a lose translation, but darn close......

In my part of the world we have a saying! Keep apples to apples and oranges to oranges. This is not the same phenomena, Zephir.

Best,
darkmatters73
darkmatters73
sad.gif Oh, I did not mention the Y, I dare say she/he is history. Like in gone for good.

darkmatters73 sad.gif
Quantumbrujo
The smallest possible particle is nothing more than a space/timer vortex draining the ether to some other side/universe and this flow of ether is what can be perceived as gravity giving that tiny particle mass.Pressure fluctuations in the ether are like waves on water and if two not on the same plane meet,they create a vortex and matter pops up into existence all depending of course at what angle relative to each other they collided at.The only thing that really exists is the ether,and energy and matter are just the ether being disturbed from total rest where you would say that it's at equilibrium relative to itself
Zephir
QUOTE (Quantumbrujo+Dec 15 2005, 05:35 PM)
..the smallest possible particle is nothing more than a space/timer vortex...

Well, not exactly - the smallest possible particles are just the waves of the spacetime alone, so called preons, i.e. graviton wave packets. The vortex nature of Aether requires the existence of particles, which are behaving like the massive particles in fluids. The rest is the very same as the basic conclusions of the Aether wave theory

User posted image
darkmatters73
Hi Zephir, & Quantumbrujo,

Kudos, when you get to generic particles, (leptons & quarks) they are waves. We tell students the particle/wave theory so there minds do not fry.

We agree, hope the vortex does not collapse. Wow.

Best,
darkmatters73
Zephir
QUOTE (darkmatters73+Dec 15 2005, 06:07 PM)
...hope the vortex does not collapse..

The gravity vortex collapse is limited both by quantum effects (i.e. resonance), both by kinetic reasons (decreasing the overall energy transfer speed across heavily convoluted space), but the most important limit is the minimization of action principle, i.e. topology. The 6D convoluted space has no reason to collapse anymore by such a way, its vortex are conditionally stable.
darkmatters73
Thanks Zephir,

What I should have said, when you get down to the quantitative matter you have a wave effect.

I believe that is why students think that light has mass.

But what Quantumbrujo might be going, but not sure is like in the Super String-t, sometimes gravity is compared to a pencil (being G) going through pages of paper (dimensions).

Not bad way of looking at it, so Higgs could very well be a product of such a four dimensional concept.

Best,
darkmatters73




Zephir
QUOTE (darkmatters73+Dec 15 2005, 06:58 PM)
...I believe that is why students think that light has mass....

But the light (...the photons, be more specific) HAS the mass, just it hasn't the rest mass having no fixed position - so its mass/energy is spreaded across the light path.... wink.gif The kinetic energy of light is a quite well pronounced (see the Crookes's radiometer, for example) and employed in solar sails...

user posted image

Nevertheless, the energy of high frequency light (like gamma and cosmic ray in particular) exhibits a pronounced massive behavior and persistent changes to the vacuum (light absorption in vacuum by making particle-antiparticle pairs, autofocusation of light and even the nonzero effective cross-section of photon-photon interactions, as an example).

I'll explain all these effect in more detail later, as they're closely related to my understanding of the mass and energy quantities.
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

The Crooke's Radiometer does not work by the methods that you suggest. Others (as a refresher) please look at this reference.
How does a light-mill work?
A test of the principle of "Solar Sails" was attempted recently and there was a lot of "critical output" on this issue on the concept of using light as a means of motive force. The experiment failed due to technical reasons. Undoubtedly there is a small effect... not because light has mass but because light can exchange momentum. Force over a period of time imparts an impulse to an object (or "boost")...
user posted image
As you would recall Impulse is the change in momentum and Einstein's Photoelectric Equation (the Nobel prize one) is...
user posted image
where...
user posted image
the units of h-bar being "impulse'... where you have that impulse is the change in momentum ...
user posted image
Solar sails will probably work not so much because of a stream of photons which have a very tiny "impulse" to impart but because of the stream of a very "heavy" (relatively speaking) continuous flow of mostly hydrogen nuclei streaming from the Sun (ionized hydrogen, protons, helium nuclei and electrons)... the "solar wind". That is the phenomenon that is what actually makes comets tails point away from the Sun.

As to the true nature of the Radiometer... it has been proven to just not work at all in a hard vacuum... dispelling the myth of photon pressure alone causing it to spin. It obviously has something to do with the dynamics of the enclosed gas in the glass envelope. A lot of "kids" grow up thinking this instrument is a demonstration of photon pressure (that is what their teachers told them).... well even if photons have pressure due to their planckian impulse it is "minuscule".

It is an example (IMHO) of the nonsense "taught" today in schools and in Universities and this has a very powerful influence over their impressionable minds. In my day my teachers used the cane... he he he! (I got quite a few beatings and they only taught me to mistrust authority)... but this other "subtle teaching technique" works much better than "carrots" and achieves the desired result... conformity. I particularly remember how one teacher gave me the "customary" beating and confiscated a small bar magnet I had brought to school... being a "distraction". wink.gif I am happy that I do not "conform" nowadays. biggrin.gif See... I benefited from those beatings. tongue.gif

While "the truth is out there" ... "trust no one" and think for yourselves. A "healthy paranoia" helps concentrate the mind wonderfully. There is a lot of nonsense out there in teaching systems (all of them) and it is screwing up young minds.

As yquantum would say...
QUOTE
Carpe Diem!.....SEIZE THE DAY
Tis only in their dreams
that men truly be free,
'twas always thus,
and always thus will be...

    -Keating.


Hurry up and get well yquantum. smile.gif

Cheers
Guest_bee
That sounds brilliant! smile.gif
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 16 2005, 06:51 AM)
The Crooke's Radiometer does not work by the methods that you suggest.

Solar sails have been proven to work, solar light pressure has move satellites and has been used to control rotation on Mariner 10. laser experiments have lifted solar foils in a space vacuum proving that light can move matter and that the "solar wind" has nothing to do with this effect. Concerning the Crookes radiometer function in deep vacuum, consider the principle of Nichols radiometer

QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 16 2005, 06:51 AM)
...not because light has mass but because light can exchange momentum...

Only massive particles/waves can exchange momentum, no question about it. Suppose the light have no mass, it will be a violation of the Einstein's equivalence principle and E=mc^2 equation. Strange enough, even You're spreading theory the "electron is the close-looped photon", here.... wink.gif
Good Elf
Hi zephir,

As I said... solar sails "do" work but not primarily because of light pressure but by "Solar Wind".... The radiometer (as it is built) does not work in a "hard vacuum". Yes light can move matter... very tiny bits of it. It is useful for propelling particles of dust out of the solar system but the "Solar Wind" does better.

The closed loop photon is not my theory. While I admire the basic concept the original authors of the paper do not agree with the "spin" I wish to put on this point (they have been on this forum a couple of months ago). This is in the form of a "String Theory" in six extra real dimensions.

The dimensional electron cavity gives the external "appearance" of the topological photon "mass" (6 dimensional curvature) as per de Broglie's Paper.
Comptes rendus - Louis de Broglie 1923
The "effect" on space-time (3D + T) is as a sort of "shadow". Space-time does respond a teeny bit but for this extreme curvature you need an easily constructed cavity. It should also have the property of self-assembly... this will happen if you think about it (ignoring CPT).
On the "interior" the photon is in a dimensionally closed "flat-space" and "does not know that it is going in a "circle" and so knows nothing about the "Bohr Orbit" or it's "externally observed" charge, magnetic moment or the mass. This is all due to observations from the "appropriate" external frame of reference. The "electronic structure of atoms" is only "externally" observed and it is not charge but topology that keeps the electron in "orbit" or traps photons as well by the same mechanism.

Here are the images from the paper on the electron...
User posted image
Notice how the negative charge from the dynamic electromagnetic wave is wrapped to the outside of the "electron" everywhere and the positive charge is on the interior. This would cause enormous "self energies" if such charges "really" existed inside electrons. From the point of view of electrons the self repulsion goes to infinity at the center of the electron.. an obvious absurdity but it is current theory. Current theory suggests that to have a dipole moment it needs some physical size but this is not seen in 3D + T where it is only a "shadow" on "Space-time". The cavity is not inside our "space".
User posted image
The paper does not say exactly "why" the photon "chooses" to move in a double loop and not self repel. The original authors are promising a different explanation at a later time.

The paper on the whole is quite "brilliant". Just need added dimensions and de Broglie's "relativity"...
Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? J.G. Williamson et al.
They published from the Louis de Broglie Institute quite appropriately... he he he! Great man and a complement to Einstein's Theory (the missing bit of this jigsaw).

I suggest that everyone look at these following two references to see "electromagnetic circuits" and "physical systems" that mirror the true processes inside atoms (at the Quantum Electrodynamic level of our Universe)..
Circuit QED Project - photon in a can.
And nature does Fourier Transforms too... naturally...
Light's Clock and an analog system like atomic "shells".
That gives you all the operational experimental background you all need to put it together in your own minds.

The Quantum Chromodynamic level is just the next level of abstraction "down". The "Higgs" fits into this picture "like a glove".

Cheers
yquantum
ohmy.gif Something else you can check into Zephir?

Good Elf, Zephir, &dm73,

Good Elf, when I am away things happen I am beginning to take it personal. HA! biggrin.gif

Excellent GE on your explanation. Not ganging up on you Lephir just fact.

We can still stay focus & on the path here which I am very glad. [Oh, feel much better, thank you GE]. cool.gif

One of the reasons for the different masses which comes in a variety as we know. Through experiments with different kinds of particles interact more or less strongly with the Dirac Sea/Higgs Ocean.

~ In general locally gauge the complete 15 parameter massless conformal group to get all relevant space-time compensating gauge force fields rippling through the post-inflationary calm macro-quantum coherent non-random Higgs Ocean that emerges from the incoherent random unstable pre-inflationary choppy micro-quantum Dirac Sea. ~ rolleyes.gif

When a particle moves through the Dirac Sea/Higgs Ocean it is interfered with due to mass, when © moves, it moves smoothly through the Dirac Sea/Higgs Ocean with no interaction it has no mass, there is no drag example again, the photon!

The © photon is a good example because it passes completely unhindered. POINT: NO MASS! blink.gif

Check it out with top/quarks or any other particle with mass going through DS/H, if you have mass, it would be like going through Boston at rush hour with swarming cars everywhere. Yet the photon © moves as if the streets are clear of traffic as far as the eye can see. We have 95 percent confindence that the Higgs has been seen. That is where the BIG BUCKS are going to pay off, with LHC/CERN this is of extraordinary importance of the Higgs. You see it is not a matter [pun] what the yquantum has to say, it is just a very HOT subject going on right now.

ciao_
yquantum
Good Elf
Hi yquantum,

Agreed... but it will take a day or two to work out fully just what you said there. biggrin.gif

Good to see you back "on deck". Are you back to enjoying yourself on the slopes yet or still a bit "wobbly"? smile.gif

I think I was "polishing off" when you answered... have a look at those last references too. It is real physics without the LHC but it demonstrates some vital principles IMHO. I will consider what you said and drag myself back on course. I have become "higgledy-piggedly".

When you say the Higgs has been "seen" this surely would be an "interior" process because of the times involved?

Cheers
yquantum
Thank you!

smile.gif Good Elf,

I hope memory serves me here? But a man by the name of Dr. Leon Lederman published a book out some time ago. "God particle," [Dr. Lederman is a Nobel laureate]. I think he covers about everything we have talked about. Not sure but would be surprised if not..... I will try and find a copy, you can check the web. OK?

If you want to get to the crux of the [m], then check into 'God particle.' I would think that would be a great place to start.

I have not looked into it from that path, but it should help you tremendously in getting what you desire from the Higgs perspective.

And you know, no one will claim anything for certain, until you can show UN-refutable proof. No one wants the 'Cold fusion' fiasco to happen. So until then, we will just make an assessment of what experiments have been shown.

Yes, when dealing with the micro and energy needed, we need to go deeper than ever to make a statement that can be fact. This can be done, with what is about to happen. So much different from looking into the String theory. But I know you understand that it is here to stay, SS shows great promise as well. Just do not have the technology to support it, or understanding the full impact of the mathematics.

What ever team is on hand to capture the big event, most likely will win the big, Nobel Peace Prize. Eh!

ciao_
yquantum
yquantum
biggrin.gif Zephir,

Check out the December 2005 Scientific American, page 68. It might support what you seek.

I quote: "Sound waves in a fluid behave uncannily like light waves in space. Black holes even have acoustic counterparts. Could spacetime literally be a kind of fluid, like the [ether] of pre-Einsteinian physics?"

By Theodore A. Jacobson & Renaud Parentani.

Hope it helps.

ciao_
yquantum smile.gif
Zephir
QUOTE (yquantum+Dec 16 2005, 06:17 PM)
...Sound waves in a fluid behave uncannily like light waves in space...

ciao yquantum,

The Aether Wave Theory is based on such insight, indeed.. wink.gif But the "official" science community have used a lot of time a mantra: "The Aether cannot exist, as the light doesn't behaves as sound wave".

It's a new kind of religion in science, but it's nonsence smile.gif
yquantum
wink.gif Zephir,

Your welcome. It is always good to know you might be on the right path, which few dare to travel.

Looking forward to see how this plays out.

I do not have a hat to eat, but I just might at least remember what you said for absolution. HA!

I will make a great conversation with good friends.

Best in you search,
yquantum cool.gif
Good Elf
Hi yquantum,

Thanks for that (God Particle) I will try and look into it. Don't like the name of the book though, too pretentious. But the Nobel Prize is the "biggie". I hope the Higgs does not become "Cold Fusion".

Cheers
WaterBreath
QUOTE (yquantum+Dec 16 2005, 12:45 PM)
I hope memory serves me here?  But a man by the name of Dr. Leon Lederman published a book out some time ago.  "God particle," [Dr. Lederman is a Nobel laureate].

I had the fortune of hearing Dr. Lederman speak (and actually got to shake his hand, IIRC) a few years back when I was in school. He came to my college to speak about Higgs theories one evening, and my physics professor at the time invited us to attend.

He was very hopeful about the new colliders planned and under construction. He made it very clear that it would be an exciting result no matter what we find or don't find. So I suspect the pretentiousness of the title may have been at least partly marketing-driven.

It was a very interesting talk. Though it was "general", rather than detailed, regarding the nature and content of the theories, it was enough to tug at my mind. I haven't read his book yet, but fully intend to read it one day soon.
Zephir
QUOTE (yquantum+Dec 16 2005, 10:06 PM)
...I do not have a hat to eat, but I just might at least remember what you said for absolution. HA!...

I feel, your organism hesitates to accept my absolution. Don't scary, it's a normal purification process - during accepting a new ideas the older ones should be discarded... wink.gif

Nevertheless, thank You for your support, as the support always speeds up the evolution - no matter, how good the introducing ideas are.
Good Elf
Hi waterbreath, zephir and yquantum,

Ii always been pretty good on this forum since none of us should expect a new theory be without any challenge. It is the good thoughtful and pinpoint directed point that can make or break an idea.

The "Higgs Particle" is way outside of my comfort zone. I know it must "fit in" way "down there" but I am not in control of all the facts there. HEP is way outside my experience and it is possible that the "paradigms" I relate to do not work down there.

Still when Susskind said if anything is a string then everything are strings. I also believe in a continuum "down there" with higher dimensions for no other reason than this is what is supported by the experimental evidence so far.

Unfortunately I do have a beanie to eat... biggrin.gif

Cheers
Zephir
QUOTE (Good Elf+Dec 16 2005, 10:28 PM)
I hope the Higgs does not become "Cold Fusion"

As I've explained, the so called "Higgs Mechanism" undergoes a "intensive development". As the result, no just the single Higgs particle is expected, but the whole family.... wink.gif

From the rather subtle lattice effects supporting the high rest mass of gauge bosons the Higgs boson has gradually evolved into a fundamental particle, responsible for mass of all particles. Did the Standard model predicted such evolution? I'm afraid, not, hehe biggrin.gif Strange enough, but the whole true is, suppose the Aether behaves like fluid really, the massive particle existence is a condition for all theories, whatever we called it (graviton, parton, preon).

From the Aether wave theory point of view it's not so great problem because I believe, even the each single space-time wave exhibits a gravity, being the space-time deformation and the Aether is heavily massive environment due to high GUT energy of such wave pockets by such a way, each wave pocket will behave as the massive particle, exhibiting the energy and inertia at the same time. The funny thing is, all it's a just direct consequence of GR theory, no other assumptions are required - just waves as the basic space deformation unit.

User posted image

So, there's no need to search for the specific Higgs particle for mass explanation, the general relativity theory should be enough for explanation of massive Aether and its "vortexes". Does it necessarily mean, the Higgs particle cannot exist at all? No, of course not.
yquantum
smile.gif Hi Good Elf, Zephir & WaterBreath,

Good Elf, found the book. Believe me it should be in your University Resource Center where you teach, or local library. It will give you the simple basics. Very easy read....... wink.gif

WaterBreath, that is great from my humble view, he is a Feynman in an Old Mans suite. HA! Great guy and what a sense of humor & brilliant, yes he was doing some marketing for a project coming up. He has some great stories to tell. No more said on that. I am happy for you. Hope you had a camera. Eh! laugh.gif

Zephir, you know the Taz Mahal? It does not have perfect symmetry now. [You know of the addition correct?] wink.gif This we know so that is how the Higgs fits in so nicely when it is added, like when they added to the Taz Mahal it broke symmetry, even with your theory I think the Higgs explains much more but that is just a point of view not a slam, OK/time will tell. Right? rolleyes.gif

What the theory and mathematics tells us that the concept of the Higgs mechanism is like a good woman, just hard to find but she is out there, which brings me to the point it relies on the phenomenon of spontaneous symmetry breaking, example: electroweak symmetry breaking generates the masses of the W's, Z. [quarks & leptons].

I am open to everyone's point of view when I am normal. [Please do not go there; my wife does all the time]. I am giving what you say, credence because we do need change I have said that before you came to this Forum, but the mathematics gets in the way and that could be the problem, but I think not, because it works when used factoring in the Higgs-M.

If we use the Higgs field theory, it gives us a good indication of how masses came to be with the W's and Z particles. That is why the topic is so HOT!

Some questions that drive a person insane, blink.gif why is the weak gauge bosons, the W's &Z have mass and the photons does not, we know there function in micro sub nuclear field with exchange! And why are they different in mass? Why do W’s & Z transmit information only in a very close proximity and the other can go light years and not pick up any mass in a none zero Higgs field and it is still massless?

They all started out massless. I respect any theory, they all started from somewhere, believe me I know what it is like when you’re the only one that thinks he has the answer.

Time, is your best friend if we all should live that long on any theory that is presented by anyone these days because knowledge is exponentially growing at a pace, I have never seen before in my life time.

Please excuse the typos. Need to rest now. Clear my head, it hurts. HA! Congratulations again on the article hope it gives you hope we know you have the passion. Good Elf find the BOOK, and WaterBreath it is good to hear from you. Hope all is well?

ciao_
yquantum
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