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santiago52
Hi all,

I am trying to figure out which men (and women) made the greatest advancements in the creation of modern science and of course Newton always comes to mind when asking that question. Anyway, as far as I understand it (and I certainly don't know a lot about physics), his theories were proved wrong by Einstein, so how exactly could he have advanced science? Of course, science after Newton built on his theory of gravity, but wasn't that a misdirection? Or asked differently: could anyone in Newton's time have formulated a better theory of gravity, one that is more in agreement with Einstein's relativity theory? Or was Newton's theory the best that was possible in consideration of the amount of data (and the state of mathematics) available in his time?

I hope you understand what I mean. Sorry for bad English and thank you for all answers.

Peter
synthsin75
Newton wasn't wrong. What he developed is still relevant within the domain of gravity we commonly experience, and since it is, we still use Newtons gravity to calculate things within its domain.
brucep
QUOTE (santiago52+Aug 24 2011, 10:42 AM)
Hi all,

I am trying to figure out which men (and women) made the greatest advancements in the creation of modern science and of course Newton always comes to mind when asking that question. Anyway, as far as I understand it (and I certainly don't know a lot about physics), his theories were proved wrong by Einstein, so how exactly could he have advanced science? Of course, science after Newton built on his theory of gravity, but wasn't that a misdirection? Or asked differently: could anyone in Newton's time have formulated a better theory of gravity, one that is more in agreement with Einstein's relativity theory? Or was Newton's theory the best that was possible in consideration of the amount of data (and the state of mathematics) available in his time?

I hope you understand what I mean. Sorry for bad English and thank you for all answers.

Peter

The thing Newton didn't know was that space and time intervals are relative and the local coordinate speed of light is a constant. There was nothing in the experience of his era that could help him make such a distinction. Maxwell equations made the distinction which led to SR and GR.
brucep
QUOTE (synthsin75+Aug 24 2011, 04:48 PM)
Newton wasn't wrong. What he developed is still relevant within the domain of gravity we commonly experience, and since it is, we still use Newtons gravity to calculate things within its domain.

See you don't know what your talking about because you really don't understand the physics or the scientific literature. Newton was wrong because predictions from his theory have been falsified. An he'd be exited to see Einstein's solution. He wouldn't need to hang on just because he said it. Like you seem to need to do.
synthsin75
QUOTE (brucep+Aug 25 2011, 07:43 PM)
See you don't know what your talking about because you really don't understand the physics or the scientific literature. Newton was wrong because predictions from his theory have been falsified. An he'd be exited to see Einstein's solution. He wouldn't need to hang on just because he said it. Like you seem to need to do.

[Deleted] Newton was only wrong in relatively minor corrections to what his theory of gravitation could be applied to at the time. He was right enough that we still use Newtonian Gravitation in many cases where such corrections go unnoticed. Newton is definitely not completely obsolete, and thus not outright wrong.

[Deleted]
[Moderator: Suspended 10 days.]
brucep
QUOTE (synthsin75+Aug 26 2011, 03:38 AM)
[Deleted] Newton was only wrong in relatively minor corrections to what his theory of gravitation could be applied to at the time. He was right enough that we still use Newtonian Gravitation in many cases where such corrections go unnoticed. Newton is definitely not completely obsolete, and thus not outright wrong.

[Deleted]
[Moderator: Suspended 10 days.]

Nobody said Newton was obsolete just that his theory of gravity had been falsified. His theory of gravity is very useful in the weak field but is completely useless in the strong field. It's completely useless for a weak field project such as the GPS. I think Newton was the greatest scientific mind to ever contemplate our universe. Probably the greatest mathematical physicist to ever live. Still his theory of gravity was falsified long ago. The arguments you've chosen to support your mistake show how little you understand the literature and how science works. What else is new.
rpenner
QUOTE (santiago52+Aug 24 2011, 10:42 AM)
Anyway, as far as I understand it (and I certainly don't know a lot about physics), his theories were proved wrong by Einstein, so how exactly could he have advanced science?

Human knowledge about reality is a very long list of observations.
Some of those observations are poorly made, but the ones that are reliable we call facts.
But there are too many facts for anyone to know them all. Just think back to your last history class and imagine if you needed to know all the facts to pass the test, like what General So-and-So's breakfast was three days before the famous battle, how many soldiers where shot in the face, and if the surrendering general was wearing a clean uniform or one soiled from battle.
So science advances when someone finds something just as good as memorizing a bunch of facts. We call the ability to communicate precise and useful descriptions of facts based on their circumstances a scientific theory. Because it has to be precise, it is usually expressed in terms of math and because it has to be useful, it has to match up well with the most facts and be the simplest such theory to do so.

Before Galileo, the writings of Aristotle controlled much of Europe's mindset with regard to gravity and the motion of bodies. Aristotle believed the stars and planets had one type of motion, while things that could be touched on Earth had a nature which was completely different. While Aristotle believed in gravity (i.e. he wasn't insane when considering the motion of thrown objects), he believed that they travelled in a straight line, eventually ran out of forward motion, and fell to Earth. Aristotle's idea of gravity is similar to that experienced by cartoon characters (especially the coyote of the Roadrunner cartoons) who run off of a cliff and and don't fall until they come to a stop (and for cartoon characters, a moment of realization).

Galileo experimented and came to the conclusion that Aristotle was wrong on two points. Firstly, objects don't just run out of forward movement -- it is stolen from them by rubbing against other things. With smoother balls and tracks, Galileo demonstrated that rest was not a special state, but just the state of motion shared by a lot of things in common. Secondly, falling objects fall at the same rate regardless of their composition or state of motion. Thus Galileo developed ideas about acceleration.

Newton, advanced science many ways.
He invented a new type of math to deal with velocity and acceleration even when they happen in different directions and change over time. With this new math, calculus, it was possible to make more precise statements with less effort than other methods.
He developed the concept of momentum and mass.
He overthrew Aristotle's ill-gotten authority by unifying the motions of the planets with the motion of bodies on Earth. His Universal Gravitation showed that to high precision the motion of the planets and falling rocks was governed by the same laws of momentum, mass and gravity.
He experimented on his own eyeball, and developed useful descriptions of light and color.

Thus he advanced human knowledge from where it was before. But he was a bit prejudiced by his experiences and could not imagine the advances that would be made.

In 1905, Einstein wrote four remarkable papers.
In one, he showed that there existed strong evidence that the molecular nature of matter had visible consequence, which was a demonstration that the hypothetical "atoms" of chemistry were physically real.
In the second, he demonstrated, as Newton believed, that light came in chunks that carried momentum. Newton clearly didn't have the whole picture, but quantum physics from 1900 to the 1930s would unify the world of light and the Newtonian world of particles into a single physics.
In the last two, Einstein abolished the Newtonian concept of Euclidean space and absolute time. The relationship between velocity and momentum would change as a result of this discovery, but only significantly so for things fast enough to go around the Earth in less than a minute.
Later, in 1916, he would finish extending these ideas about motion to replace Newton's Universal Gravitation with an even more universal General Relativity -- a theory which predicts how the shape of the universe changes over time.

Newton's ideas still reign as precise and useful for things big enough to touch and slow enough to time in a race with a stopwatch and no more gravity than the Sun. But Einstein's ideas work even better.

Conceptually, Newton's prejudices about absolute time and Euclidean space and the instantaneous speed of gravity are simply wrong. Just as Aristotle's prejudices against experimentation and placing the motion of the planets outside the reach of human science were completely off-base. Einstein himself was prejudiced in a way that left him unhappy about the great changes in physics, and he died before the discovery of quarks which started yet more great changes in physics.

Prejudices may allow us to leap forward, in pursuit of a trail of thought that doesn't start off with strong evidentiary support, but gains more as the trail is followed. Or they may hold us back. But ultimately the test of scientific theories is how close they come to replacing the need to memorize long lists of facts.

Much of what we call science today owes to Newton and his insistence on communicating precise and useful descriptions of reality. But Newton was not the end of progress in science because we have grabbed observations which Newton could never have predicted that we would.
santiago52
Thank you for your answers, especially to rpenner. So it is adequate to say that SR and GR could only have been formulated in Einstein's time, after Maxwell's equations, the advancements in mathematics (Riemann etc.) and so on?

My thoughts were like this: Aristotle was a great mind in his time and he advanced human knowledge in many ways. Nevertheless, in the end, he may have decelerated the development of science if we look into the middle ages and how aristotelism became a dogma. Couldn't it be that Newton's mechanics (and newtonianism), as they relied on a false theory, prevented mankind to find a "better" theory sooner as well?
rpenner
I don't think the problem was the dogmaticism of some generation of physicists. I think that the experimental observations from 1859-1900 was accumulating a series of facts which could not be reconciled with Newtonian physics. Maxwell's equations, at first glance, look Newtonian since they are described originally in terms of Newtonian forces in absolute space and absolute time. But while Newtonian momentum (and Émilie du Châtelet's concept of energy) obey the relative velocity symmetries observed by Galileo, Maxwell's equations don't quite match. Given that Maxwell's equations were tremendously successful in describing many observations, they were a natural inspiration for Special Relativity.

Einstein wasn't the only one on this trail, nor was he the last word. Poincaré and Lorentz developed the math of SR. Minkowski gave use the modern geometrical language of SR that ultimately led to GR. Schwarzschild did some of the heavy lifting that led to the prediction of black holes -- a prediction that I don't believe Einstein was ever comfortable with. Planck developed the need to quantize the energy of light as a trick to make the thermodynamics of blackbody radiation (cavity radiation) match observation, and Einstein showed this was a good trick for ultraviolet light hitting metal, and later work by many others would lead to Quantum Electrodynamics, a theory to replace both Newton and Maxwell when it comes to light and electrons. Hawking then brought quantum physics, gravity and thermodynamics all together to show in the very long term black holes weren't eternal after all.

Dogmaticism existed (and as some on this forum show, exists today), but scientifically speaking clinging to the past has been a fruitless endeavor. Science is, in the most basic definition of the world, progressive in that it builds upon the observations of the past and new hypotheses are accepted and promoted to theories only if they actually do better than the theories of the past.
brucep
QUOTE (rpenner+Aug 26 2011, 09:12 PM)
I don't think the problem was the dogmaticism of some generation of physicists. I think that the experimental observations from 1859-1900 was accumulating a series of facts which could not be reconciled with Newtonian physics. Maxwell's equations, at first glance, look Newtonian since they are described originally in terms of Newtonian forces in absolute space and absolute time. But while Newtonian momentum (and Émilie du Châtelet's concept of energy) obey the relative velocity symmetries observed by Galileo, Maxwell's equations don't quite match. Given that Maxwell's equations were tremendously successful in describing many observations, they were a natural inspiration for Special Relativity.

Einstein wasn't the only one on this trail, nor was he the last word. Poincaré and Lorentz developed the math of SR. Minkowski gave use the modern geometrical language of SR that ultimately led to GR. Schwarzschild did some of the heavy lifting that led to the prediction of black holes -- a prediction that I don't believe Einstein was ever comfortable with. Planck developed the need to quantize the energy of light as a trick to make the thermodynamics of blackbody radiation (cavity radiation) match observation, and Einstein showed this was a good trick for ultraviolet light hitting metal, and later work by many others would lead to Quantum Electrodynamics, a theory to replace both Newton and Maxwell when it comes to light and electrons. Hawking then brought quantum physics, gravity and thermodynamics all together to show in the very long term black holes weren't eternal after all.

Dogmaticism existed (and as some on this forum show, exists today), but scientifically speaking clinging to the past has been a fruitless endeavor. Science is, in the most basic definition of the world, progressive in that it builds upon the observations of the past and new hypotheses are accepted and promoted to theories only if they actually do better than the theories of the past.

Both your posts are very nice Mr. Moderator.
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