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Jim Logajan
In another thread, Chris Phoenix wrote:
> The stability of an arms race depends on the technology involved.

Since nanotechnology will make irrelevant many of the motivations that
drive national antagonisms, the more fundamental question is "Are nanotech
arms races ever likely to arise?" - not "Are they unstable?"

Furthermore, an objective list would have included those aspects of
nanotechnology that lent stability to any ensuing arms race as well as
those that caused instability. As a result, the list appears subjective,
making it an inaccurate assessment of probable futures, and therefore of
little value in determining policy. It needs to be redone with more
objectivity, IMHO.

> MNT races would be a lot less stable than nuclear arms races, for many
> reasons. In no particular order:
> 1) Cheaper to develop and test

That is an odd claim to make since history has already invalidated it: An
understanding of the physical laws needed to develop nuclear technology,
microtechnology, and nanotechnology were all in place at the end of the
1930s. Nuclear reactors and bombs now exist, as do microelectronic devices,
yet no MNT device yet exists. And Feynman spoke of MNT-like capabilities
and their great promise back in 1959 - and yet they still don't exist.
Therefore I simply can't reconcile your claim with reality.

Furthermore, even when the first MNT assembler or nanofactory arrives on
the scene, the design and development problems do not go away. The
technology will be in virgin territory and there will be teething problems
in the design of products and in each generation of device. Each of these
problems will takes months and possibly even years to work out.

And of course, it isn't clear why this makes a nanotech arms race
"unstable". The "stability" of said race eventually rests on the psychology
and motivations of the participants. If the intent of one side is to use
the arms once they believe they have superiority, then a subsequent arms
race is potentially unstable - but the technology involved is irrelevant.

> 2) Less horrifying; less political pressure against use
> 3) Less collateral and post-attack damage (more controllable)

(Note: these two points appear to be interdependent and therefore seem to
be only one point.)

Assassination happens to match these criteria. And it it available today.
Is there an arms race for assassins?

> 4) Much faster obsolescence (orders of magnitude)

This is closely related to point 1, which I've already commented on.

> 5) Much cheaper to build

So? Technological or cost _inequities_ in an arms race do not cause an arms
race to be unstable - the instability is either there from the start or it
is not, as I claim above. Also, this point, along with point 7, concern
proliferation which is a subject different from arms races.

> 6) Far more diverse weaponry

I fail to see how this leads to instability in an arms race. It also
falsely implies that there are no difficulties involved in designing,
building, testing, and deploying a diverse set of weapons. (It might be
more effective to stick with one class of weapons after all.)

> 7) Almost everything is dual-use

This is an important point on the futility of attempting non-proliferation,
but again, it does not seem to me to be a destabilizing factor on its own
or in conjunction with any of the other points.

> Nukes are easier to stockpile than to use;

U.S. nukes have a design lifespan of 20 to 25 years. They have to be
heavily guarded. Their delivery systems (missiles and bombers) require
periodic maintenance and replacement. From a cost perspective they are NOT
"easy" to stockpile. Your statement makes sense only when comparing the
moral and political aspects - in which case I agree.

> MNT-built weapons are easier to use than to stockpile.

Again, one has to read this as a statement on the political or moral costs,
since it doesn't make any sense from a financial cost basis. I presume that
this is a conclusion from points 2 and 3: it is easier to find a moral
justification for killing a few rather than millions. It also presumes that
killing a few will accomplish the intended goal. But targeted killings of
political or military leaders of enemy countries don't seem to work the way
the perpetrators intend. The futility of targeting a few people and places
will simply increase, not decrease, as nanotechnology makes its way into
human life.
John S. Novak, III
QUOTE
In another thread, Chris Phoenix wrote:
>> The stability of an arms race depends on the technology involved.
Since nanotechnology will make irrelevant many of the motivations that
drive national antagonisms, the more fundamental question is "Are nanotech arms races ever likely to arise?" - not "Are they unstable?"


Are you serious?
Or are you being ironic?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In another thread, Chris Phoenix wrote:
>> The stability of an arms race depends on the technology involved.
Since nanotechnology will make irrelevant many of the motivations that
drive national antagonisms, the more fundamental question is "Are nanotech arms races ever likely to arise?" - not "Are they unstable?"


Are you serious?
Or are you being ironic?

Furthermore, an objective list would have included those aspects of nanotechnology that lent stability to any ensuing arms race as well as those that caused instability. As a result, the list appears subjective, making it an inaccurate assessment of probable futures, and therefore of little value in determining policy. It needs to be redone with more objectivity, IMHO.


Stability is a concept amenable to mathematical treatment, actually.
Until I see a mathematical treatment behind the claim, I will regard
it as an unfounded assertion.

(That is a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition.)

QUOTE
> MNT races would be a lot less stable than nuclear arms races, for many
>> reasons.  In no particular order:
>> 1) Cheaper to develop and test
Furthermore, even when the first MNT assembler or nanofactory arrives on  the scene, the design and development problems do not go away. The technology will be in virgin territory and there will be teething problems  in the design of products and in each generation of device. Each of these  problems will takes months and possibly even years to work out.


This is quite, quite true.

Far too many nanotech enthusiasts, and even a number of self-appointed
experts are running around with the notion that once we have
nanotechnology, we will automagically solve not only production
problems, but design problems as well.

Of course, one need only look at every single past technology
revolution to know that neither of these claims are true. New
technoogies do not "solve" design problems; they render some design
problems obsolete, ameliorate others, and introduce still other new
design problems. LIkewise, they do not "solve" production problems,
they merely shift the economics a bit.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
> MNT races would be a lot less stable than nuclear arms races, for many
>> reasons.  In no particular order:
>> 1) Cheaper to develop and test
Furthermore, even when the first MNT assembler or nanofactory arrives on  the scene, the design and development problems do not go away. The technology will be in virgin territory and there will be teething problems  in the design of products and in each generation of device. Each of these  problems will takes months and possibly even years to work out.


This is quite, quite true.

Far too many nanotech enthusiasts, and even a number of self-appointed
experts are running around with the notion that once we have
nanotechnology, we will automagically solve not only production
problems, but design problems as well.

Of course, one need only look at every single past technology
revolution to know that neither of these claims are true. New
technoogies do not "solve" design problems; they render some design
problems obsolete, ameliorate others, and introduce still other new
design problems. LIkewise, they do not "solve" production problems,
they merely shift the economics a bit.

And of course, it isn't clear why this makes a nanotech arms race "unstable".


That's probably because we haven't defined instability as it pertains
to an arms race. I don't see a definition or a mathematical treatment
given on crnano.org, either. Perhaps I missed it, but my impression is
that it's a scare-adjective.
Jim Logajan <JamesL@lugoj.com
QUOTE
Are you serious?
Or are you being ironic?


Of course I'm serious - if I wasn't, I'd have written it so it was dripping
with irony, or bracketed it with nerdish pseudo-tags like <irony></irony>.

Just to be clear: I do not consider arms construction per se to constitute an
"arms race" - so if militaries upgrade their arms with nanotech-built
equipment, I don't consider such actions sufficient to label an "arms
race".

And the principal origin of the nuclear arms race was economic: if by some
historical accident the Russian February Revolution had resulted in a
democratic Russian government, a polarized set of competing economic
systems would not have resulted decades later. Tensions existed long before
nuclear weapons came on the scene. (And of course the Russian revolutions
took place precisely BECAUSE of inequitable economic conditions.)

Likewise, terrorism is founded on economic inequites as well a clash of
cultures - and the latter would be reduced if the economies of the cultures
involved were less interdependent. If there is any technological solution
to economic scarcity, reduction of inequities and economic interdependence,
then nanotechnology seems to be that solution.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Are you serious?
Or are you being ironic?


Of course I'm serious - if I wasn't, I'd have written it so it was dripping
with irony, or bracketed it with nerdish pseudo-tags like <irony></irony>.

Just to be clear: I do not consider arms construction per se to constitute an
"arms race" - so if militaries upgrade their arms with nanotech-built
equipment, I don't consider such actions sufficient to label an "arms
race".

And the principal origin of the nuclear arms race was economic: if by some
historical accident the Russian February Revolution had resulted in a
democratic Russian government, a polarized set of competing economic
systems would not have resulted decades later. Tensions existed long before
nuclear weapons came on the scene. (And of course the Russian revolutions
took place precisely BECAUSE of inequitable economic conditions.)

Likewise, terrorism is founded on economic inequites as well a clash of
cultures - and the latter would be reduced if the economies of the cultures
involved were less interdependent. If there is any technological solution
to economic scarcity, reduction of inequities and economic interdependence,
then nanotechnology seems to be that solution.
Stability is a concept amenable to mathematical treatment, actually. Until I see a mathematical treatment behind the claim, I will regard  it as an unfounded assertion.
(That is a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition.)


I'm pretty sure Chris is using "stable" in a colloquial sense - and so am
I. There are, after all, gobs of real-world physics and engineering
problems that can never be solved, except approximately. And that assumes
one can even model the problems exactly - which one generally can't. No one
can even predict the weather 2 weeks from now - good luck finding a half
way reliable model for arms races!

QUOTE
That's probably because we haven't defined instability as it pertains to an arms race.  I don't see a definition or a mathematical treatment given on crnano.org, either.  Perhaps I missed it, but my impression is that it's a scare-adjective.


Here's a web site loaded with equations that purport to determine the
instability of an arms race:
http://www.dean.usma.edu/departments/math/.../mmm99/DDS1.HTM

I started disagreeing with it by the second sentence. ;-) A contrary
opinion to some of the assumptions in the model can be found in:

http://www.twq.com/01autumn/tertrais.pdf
Warren Okuma
QUOTE
Are you serious?
Or are you being ironic?

Irrelevant? Jihads? Sociopaths? Terrorists? Insane folks? Blackmailers?
Criminals? Jilted lovers? Ooops? With an assembler more people than ever
can be players, and not just countries.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Are you serious?
Or are you being ironic?

Irrelevant? Jihads? Sociopaths? Terrorists? Insane folks? Blackmailers?
Criminals? Jilted lovers? Ooops? With an assembler more people than ever
can be players, and not just countries.
Stability is a concept amenable to mathematical treatment, actually.
Until I see a mathematical treatment behind the claim, I will regard it as an unfounded assertion.
(That is a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition.)


Stability in this world? Not anytime soon.
QUOTE
This is quite, quite true.
Far too many nanotech enthusiasts, and even a number of self-appointed experts are running around with the notion that once we have nanotechnology, we will automagically solve not only production problems, but design problems as well.
Of course, one need only look at every single past technology revolution to know that neither of these claims are true.  New technoogies do not "solve" design problems; they render some design problems obsolete, ameliorate others, and introduce still other new design problems.  LIkewise, they do not "solve" production problems, they merely shift the economics a bit.


Sigh. Yeah...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This is quite, quite true.
Far too many nanotech enthusiasts, and even a number of self-appointed experts are running around with the notion that once we have nanotechnology, we will automagically solve not only production problems, but design problems as well.
Of course, one need only look at every single past technology revolution to know that neither of these claims are true.  New technoogies do not "solve" design problems; they render some design problems obsolete, ameliorate others, and introduce still other new design problems.  LIkewise, they do not "solve" production problems, they merely shift the economics a bit.


Sigh. Yeah...
That's probably because we haven't defined instability as it pertains to an arms race.  I don't see a definition or a mathematical treatment given on crnano.org, either.  Perhaps I missed it, but my impression is that it's a scare-adjective.

Has there ever been a stable arms race?

Jim Logajan
QUOTE
Irrelevant?  Jihads?  Sociopaths?  Terrorists?  Insane folks? Blackmailers? Criminals?  Jilted lovers?  Ooops?  With an assembler more people than ever can be players, and not just countries.


Individuals don't engage in arms races with each other - which is what this
thread was about. In fact damn few countries engage in arms races. That
said, most of the players you mention wont BE players when nanotech is
developed to the point where it can be used to reek havoc, since it will
then also be a cornucopia of wealth and health:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Irrelevant?  Jihads?  Sociopaths?  Terrorists?  Insane folks? Blackmailers? Criminals?  Jilted lovers?  Ooops?  With an assembler more people than ever can be players, and not just countries.


Individuals don't engage in arms races with each other - which is what this
thread was about. In fact damn few countries engage in arms races. That
said, most of the players you mention wont BE players when nanotech is
developed to the point where it can be used to reek havoc, since it will
then also be a cornucopia of wealth and health:

Jihads? Terrorists?


I believe the ultimate origins of these are economic inequities. The
following may or may not be a useful backgrounder:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/lib...709-sageman.htm

QUOTE
Sociopaths? Insane folks?


I'm not crazy - I know these may be the most dangerous groups in a nanotech
enabled world. Satisfying material wants (including want of weapons) is
easier than solving mental problems.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Sociopaths? Insane folks?


I'm not crazy - I know these may be the most dangerous groups in a nanotech
enabled world. Satisfying material wants (including want of weapons) is
easier than solving mental problems.

Blackmailers? Criminals?


So you have this desktop device that will manufacture a wide variety of
goods - pretty much everything you need. So instead of making whatever it
is you desire, you have it make some diabolical weapon and you go on a
crime spree? I think you'd be classified under the insane folks.

QUOTE
Jilted lovers?


Okay, this one might be a small problem: "*SOB* My heart is broken - life
isn't worth living since s/he dumped me. Oh how I wish the world would end!
Oh wait, maybe I CAN make it end: I have a Mr. Assembler - I bet I can have
it build some grey goo...."

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Jilted lovers?


Okay, this one might be a small problem: "*SOB* My heart is broken - life
isn't worth living since s/he dumped me. Oh how I wish the world would end!
Oh wait, maybe I CAN make it end: I have a Mr. Assembler - I bet I can have
it build some grey goo...."

Has there ever been a stable arms race?


For sure. For a historical briefing on the subject, see:
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscom...00_armsrace.htm

"...Many onlookers, and some participants, have claimed that the likelihood
of war increases as the accumulation of arms proceeds apace.

A close examination of the historical evidence reveals a different
picture...."
Warren Okuma
QUOTE
Individuals don't engage in arms races with each other - which is what
this thread was about. In fact damn few countries engage in arms races. That said, most of the players you mention wont BE players when nanotech is developed to the point where it can be used to reek havoc, since it will then also be a cornucopia of wealth and health:


Though criminals do engage in arms races against the police...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Individuals don't engage in arms races with each other - which is what
this thread was about. In fact damn few countries engage in arms races. That said, most of the players you mention wont BE players when nanotech is developed to the point where it can be used to reek havoc, since it will then also be a cornucopia of wealth and health:


Though criminals do engage in arms races against the police...

I believe the ultimate origins of these are economic inequities. The following may or may not be a useful backgrounder:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/lib...709-sageman.htm


The problem with that is the jihadis have a Fatwa declaring a Jihad against
the US. Poverty is one facet of this problem, but Extreme Islam plays a
bigger role.

QUOTE
I'm not crazy - I know these may be the most dangerous groups in a
nanotech enabled world. Satisfying material wants (including want of weapons) is easier than solving mental problems.


Agreed. It might be an arms race against civillian potential manufacturing
capabilities.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm not crazy - I know these may be the most dangerous groups in a
nanotech enabled world. Satisfying material wants (including want of weapons) is easier than solving mental problems.


Agreed. It might be an arms race against civillian potential manufacturing
capabilities.

So you have this desktop device that will manufacture a wide variety of goods - pretty much everything you need. So instead of making whatever it is you desire, you have it make some diabolical weapon and you go on a crime spree? I think you'd be classified under the insane folks.


There are things that you would not want the assemblers to make. Drugs,
weapons, power over others, replicating snuff films, mind control implants,
etc... and ways to defend yourself if the cops come. Overthrowing
countries. Land. Greed will still exist.
QUOTE
Okay, this one might be a small problem: "*SOB* My heart is broken - life isn't worth living since s/he dumped me. Oh how I wish the world would
end! Oh wait, maybe I CAN make it end: I have a Mr. Assembler - I bet I can
have it build some grey goo...."


Yup.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Okay, this one might be a small problem: "*SOB* My heart is broken - life isn't worth living since s/he dumped me. Oh how I wish the world would
end! Oh wait, maybe I CAN make it end: I have a Mr. Assembler - I bet I can
have it build some grey goo...."


Yup.

For sure. For a historical briefing on the subject, see:
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscom...00_armsrace.htm


Fair.
John S. Novak, III
Suffice to say I think your analysis is naive: The principle origin
of the economic disparities during the Cold War resulted from a
politics promoting individual choice (and thus a market economy) in
the West and a politics destroying individual choice (and thus
creating a command economy) in the East.

The principle origin of the economic problems of much of Islam are a
combination of kleptocratic dictatorships and quasi-dictatorships
combined with a particularly narrow and inflexible view of a religion
teaching total submission to religious authority. (And I don't know
what you're talking about in terms of economic interdependence--
the alternative to economic interdependence is isolationism which has
never been good for a region's economic or social outlook.)

Economics plays a role, certainly, but there are forces which shape
economics, as well, and it's difficult to posit that those forces will
disappear with the wave of the nanotechnology wand any more than they
disappeared with the wave of the electronics wand, the steam engine
wand, the water wheel wand, or the iron wand.

QUOTE
I'm pretty sure Chris is using "stable" in a colloquial sense - and so am  I. There are, after all, gobs of real-world physics and engineering  problems that can never be solved, except approximately. And that assumes  one can even model the problems exactly - which one generally can't. No one  can even predict the weather 2 weeks from now - good luck finding a half  way reliable model for arms races!


I'm pretty sure that he's using it colloquially, too, which is
precisely the problem. I don't know what an unstable arms race is, or
how it differs from a stable one. I know many people who would claim
that there is no such thing as a stable arms race to begin with.

I most especially don't know if you and Chris even mean the same thing
by the term.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm pretty sure Chris is using "stable" in a colloquial sense - and so am  I. There are, after all, gobs of real-world physics and engineering  problems that can never be solved, except approximately. And that assumes  one can even model the problems exactly - which one generally can't. No one  can even predict the weather 2 weeks from now - good luck finding a half  way reliable model for arms races!


I'm pretty sure that he's using it colloquially, too, which is
precisely the problem. I don't know what an unstable arms race is, or
how it differs from a stable one. I know many people who would claim
that there is no such thing as a stable arms race to begin with.

I most especially don't know if you and Chris even mean the same thing
by the term.

Here's a web site loaded with equations that purport to determine the  instability of an arms race: http://www.dean.usma.edu/departments/math/.../mmm99/DDS1.HTM
  I started disagreeing with it by the second sentence. ;-) A contrary  opinion to some of the assumptions in the model can be found in:

http://www.twq.com/01autumn/tertrais.pdf


At least you *can* sensibly agree or disagree, since they define their
terms.

Joe
QUOTE
Likewise, terrorism is founded on economic inequites as well a clash of cultures -


So, people flew planes into the World Trade Center, for example, because of
"economic inequities" or because of a "clash" of cultures? ROTFL!
Nonsense.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Likewise, terrorism is founded on economic inequites as well a clash of cultures -


So, people flew planes into the World Trade Center, for example, because of
"economic inequities" or because of a "clash" of cultures? ROTFL!
Nonsense.

and the latter would be reduced if the economies of the cultures involved were less interdependent.


The latter would be reduced if the countries like the U.S. cut out the
bloody imperialism and stopped trying to rule the world.

QUOTE
If there is any technological solution to economic scarcity, reduction of inequities and economic interdependence, then nanotechnology seems to be that solution.


The problem isn't "economic scarcity", rather, it's insatiable greed and
lust for power, and the injustice that results.

magpies
I think your all missing the point here... The arms race isnt like any before with technology. Nanotechnology will give the very powerful and rich the chance to eliminate the very unpowerful and poor in a fast and cheap way. This war is about haves and have nots imo. The people that "have" will be in a situation to become the only people with things the rest of humanity could easly be made into slaves by nanotechnology and the technologys it brings. I dont think anyone really understands the power nanotechnology has as a weapon yet and that scares me alot but none the less I will be on that battle field fighting for the good of all mankind not just the poor or super rich.
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