RealityCheck: First of all, our vast differences aside, for some odd reason(s), I like you. I mention this only to inform you that my dialogue with you holds no malice or ill-will within it. Any "quotes" of yours that I use are used mainly for the purpose of addressing certain points/widely held beliefs. They are not to be construed as personal attacks in any way, shape or form. I think you understand this already, but I felt it "safe" to mention it again. Anyhow, having said that, let me briefly address what you just stated.
Hi newguy! I'd like you to go back and read what I said in my relevant posts. to the effect that......
It is the preconditioning PROCESS that encourages uncritical OBEDIENCE and BELIEFS per se that is the Danger.
That danger being the INCREASED SUSCEPTIBILITY for LATER MANIPULATION by those 'leaders/priests/mullahs' and sundry other MADMEN and CRIMINALS in POWER over those 'pre-conditioned' CAPTIVE 'followers' prte-conditioned that what the 'leaders' say is 'the will of god' etc etc etc.
See? The individual is better manipulated IF FIRST his 'skeptic/critical' FACULTIES are BLUNTED/NEUTRALISED by getting them to 'believe' without question.
THAT is what I said.
NOT that the religious person is ALREADY DISPOSED to violence....but RATHER that the religious person may be MORE EASILY MANIPULATED into doing violence or other IRRATIONAL/OUTRAGEOUS ACTS that are 'justified' by their 'beliefs' ratehr than their SELF-RESONSIBILITY as a rational human being in the same "REALITY BOAT" as the OTHER PERSON.....irrsepective of 'creed' or 'belief' etc.
I know what you said and that was what I was trying to convey when I used the terminology of "pre-conditioned towards violence". You believe that because someone INITIALLY gives "uncritical obedience", they are being PRE-CONDITIONED towards later violence. Although I don't deny that this type of pre-conditioning exists in the world, I am firmly convinced that it is OFTTIMES NOT THE CASE. You seem to believe that people started off "Okay" and because of allowing other people to "brainwash" them, they became potentially violent. Is this correct? Seems so. Let me try an analogy that may or may not fail, but hopefully you'll understand my point anyway(if you give me a "fair shake"). I have had the pleasure/displeasure of watching fairly good chunks of both the Republican debates and the Democratic debates over here in the United States in the recent past. Do you HONESTLY believe that ALL the Republicans are "true" to their party or do some of them/all of them have ulterior motives? For example, I watched an interview with John McCain a while back in which he admitted that one of the main reasons that he wants to become President is his EGO. You know, being the "Commander in Chief" of the world's largest superpower. Is EGO officially part of the Republican platform? Why are Republicans at odds with each other during the debates and before/afterwards? Are there different types of Republicans or is there one Republican platform? It seems to me(and this could equally be said about Democrats) that several of the Republicans would be better identified as INDEPENDENTS, as they have ideologies that are INDEPENDENT of the Republican platform. Where did these INDEPENDENT ideologies come from? From WITHIN the Republican platform or from WITHOUT it? Hopefully, you can understand that they originated from somewhere OUTSIDE OF the Republican platform or else they would conform to/be in line with the Republican platform. What then of a supposed "Christian" who is violent? Does Biblical Christianity teach/condone violence from the professing Christian? NO! IT DOES NOT! This behavior is totally INDEPENDENT from Biblical Christianity. Where then did this propensity(if it actually exists within a professing Christian) toward violence come from? From WITHIN Christianity or from WITHOUT Christianity? Do you see my point? Yes, there are many violent people(INDEPENDENTS) within professing Christianity(and other religions), but I would suggest to you that a GREAT DEAL OF THEM were ALREADY VIOLENT BEFORE they ever embraced what "flavor" of Christianity they presently find themself in. Do some of these people "use" their religion to justify their ALREADY VIOLENT CONDITION? You bet. You, in my opinion, are "putting the cart before the horse" IN MANY INSTANCES. I hope/trust that you understand. Good night.
Hi newguy!
Yeah, I hear you. No offence taken; just posted that for clarification purposes.
And you're right. There IS all sorts of 'pre-conditioning' even BEFORE one becomes 'religious'.
However, as MOST of the world's population STARTS OUT as CHILDREN being 'pre-conditioned' in one religious/superstitious 'system' of 'beliefs/attitudes' or other, is it any wonder that as ADULTS they have a PRECONDITIONED 'legacy' of tending towards 'fantasy' and 'irrationalism' UNTIL they rid themselves of all THAT pre-condition when reality hits full force (perforce of objective logic/thinking and objective observation)?
When I mention pre-conditioning, I also pointed to 'advertising' tactics/methods etc as the 'model' for what is being STILL DONE TODAY in places like the Sudan where ignorants/believers act CLEARLY CONTRARY to REASON, merely because their 'religious' leaders 'convince' them that that is what 'god' wants when asking for jail/death penalty in that instance.
See? One can't get away from 'pre-conditioning' PER SE....it starts from BIRTH. BUT, one can reduce the worst consequences of such things by being SKEPTICAL AT ALL TIMES when finally old enough to think for one's self.
That is what SCIENCE ENABLES ONE TO DO. Such that, even if one ABUSES science for one's own ends, THEY can't 'justify' it simply by claiming some sort of DIVINE RIGHTS in the matter. Which means that in the long run, any ABUSER of science will have to face the SCRUTINY of OTHER scietists and then be 'falsified' accordingly'.
Whereas, as I posted earlier, any other 'religion' ABUSERS will merely form their OWMN SCHISM with their TRAPPED 'believers' over whom they ALREADY gained 'ascendancy' via 'pre-conditioning' methods stripping them of critical/objective options 'under pain of DEATH' etc etc.
I hope this clarifies further what I was saying, mate!
And I DO understand your own point of view. It's just that not ALL adults are as RATIONAL and RESISTENT to these pre-conditioning methods (af all types/purposes) as you and I and most here are (I hope!hehehe).
Cheers all!
RC.
.
PuckSR
4th December 2007 - 07:33 AM
QUOTE
PuckSR: I suspect that you already have answered the question and I totally disagree that the answer to this question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussions between us or you and others. Like I said, if you choose to formally answer the question, then I'll tell you what bearing it has. If not, well... And, please, don't bother PM-ing me. If you can't answer the question publicly, then please don't attempt to answer it at all.
Glad I could answer the question by not answering....
Honestly, unless you can demonstrate how my sexual preference has ANY BEARING on a conversation....I refuse to answer it on the grounds of it being a specious question
I hate to see your dislike for me turn into attraction, but you do seem to be rather oddly obsessed with my sexual preferences.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| PuckSR: I suspect that you already have answered the question and I totally disagree that the answer to this question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussions between us or you and others. Like I said, if you choose to formally answer the question, then I'll tell you what bearing it has. If not, well... And, please, don't bother PM-ing me. If you can't answer the question publicly, then please don't attempt to answer it at all. |
Glad I could answer the question by not answering....
Honestly, unless you can demonstrate how my sexual preference has ANY BEARING on a conversation....I refuse to answer it on the grounds of it being a specious question
I hate to see your dislike for me turn into attraction, but you do seem to be rather oddly obsessed with my sexual preferences.
I only mentioned RealityCheck's post because it was recent. Several forum members, including you, have asserted/insinuated that religious people are bent towards violence. Biblical Christians are not. Period.
Actually, I have made no such claim....
My claim is that religious people are more emotionally motivated....and emotionally motivated people are far more likely to be violent.
Which point do you disagree with?
Do you believe that religious people are less emotional than atheists when defending their views?
Do you believe that emotional people are not more prone to violence?
If you doubt my claims, simply look at the middle east.
The Muslims were not always hyper-fanatics that committed suicide bombings, but they became that way.
There are two paths towards violence in religion:
Absolute belief that you are the correct faith(like you believe).
Absolute faith in something concrete(such as a religious text), this is important because it lacks the same flexibility that a more philosophical and fluid faith would allow.
"Biblical Christians"?
Is that a new term for pentecostal Christians?
The only "biblical Christians" I know about can trace their origins to the American Pentecostal movement.
Majkl
4th December 2007 - 08:26 AM
Has anyone read a researches done by biologists on monkeys communities? This is a very rough description of what i came across missing lots of details. Biologists had two gropus of same type of monkeys, one being agressive community and other not. They switched the little ones thus taking a child from agressive group and putting it into a calm one and vice -versa. They observed that a child from agressive group was behaving calmly in a calm group and vice versa. Of course they were taken and replaced as infants. It was a clear proof of environment effecting behaviour. Thus there are gazzilions but this was one of the obvious ones. I also read about a story of an agressive group of monkeys who were lead by few agressive males. These males were bold and couaregous thus they were courageous enough to wander into nearby city to look for food. They ate from trash canes and got a virus. Thus they died. Community that was existing started to change their social behaviour. Females were shared, males that were sub-ordinate to dead alphas were less agressive and community even started to mix with outsiders. Its on the internet somewhere and its very nicely described.
Of course mirroring or imitating as long as it works does have an effect. Thus when it doesnt work, when brains dont mirror or imitate behaviour well enough its then that weird stuff starts to happen. Thus brains can imitate bad behaviour as well. Brains dont have prefered frame of reference in my opinion. Thus one could say that majority of children imitate and mirror behaviour well. Minority however does not. This minority is non-conformant. They cannot be as emphatic as majority. Its the way their body works. Nobody is guilty of that however. Its random and basically it is the same as being colour blind. Majority is emphatic. So its a standard.
Majority is not colour blind. So its a standard. But being colour blind doesnt make you
dangerous, while not being emphatic does. Start from randomness and dont pre-condition your own thinking. Let things show themselves as raw as they are and you will see that psychopats-as we call such state- for example are clearly lacking empathy. They are incapable of imitating or mirroring your emotions. They almost cannot do it. They can pretend however. But it is as if a colour blind person pretended to see colours. Of course i am not saying its just a matter of brain. The other side again is social pre-conditioning. If you are laughed at and ridiculed you respond accordingly thus many paths can lead to supressed empathy be it natural or by social pre-conditioning. Its a very complex topic to say the least.
I am not qualified for any of things i talk about of course. But i know what randomness is. You can read lots of this stuff and all you can see is randomness all over. Initial conditions, rapid changes, tendencies...
For example there was a story about lioness that nurtured a gazel i think. There is a factual story of wolf-female or some other species that killed her own infants. She was naturally isolated from the rest of her pack. You can see for example in Meerkat documentaries that Alpha-female does not allow sub-ordinate females to have their own children under her leadership or so i understand. There was a story about dingo who attacked a newly formed dingo family. Thus he attacked male first and killed him. Then he ate all the puppies and after that he chased the female. He chased her for two months or something and he formed a new family with her. Be sure to check reality first.
procyon
14th January 2012 - 09:22 AM
Us monkeys love to throw our doo.
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