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newguy
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_sc/chimp_memory

Young chimp beats college students
By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer
6 minutes ago

NEW YORK - Never mind that TV show that asks if you're smarter than a fifth-grader. Is your memory better than a young chimp's? Maybe not. Japanese researchers pitted young chimps against human adults in two tests of short-term memory, and overall, the chimps won.

That challenges the belief of many people, including many scientists, that "humans are superior to chimpanzees in all cognitive functions," said researcher Tetsuro Matsuzawa of Kyoto University.

"No one can imagine that chimpanzees — young chimpanzees at the age of 5 — have a better performance in a memory task than humans," he said in a statement.

Matsuzawa, a pioneer in studying the mental abilities of chimps, said even he was surprised. He and colleague Sana Inoue report the results in Tuesday's issue of the journal Current Biology.

One memory test included three 5-year-old chimps who'd been taught the order of Arabic numerals 1 through 9, and a dozen human volunteers.

They saw nine numbers displayed on a computer screen. When they touched the first number, the other eight turned into white squares. The test was to touch all these squares in the order of the numbers that used to be there.

Results showed that the chimps, while no more accurate than the people, could do this faster.

One chimp, Ayumu, did the best. Researchers included him and nine college students in a second test.

This time, five numbers flashed on the screen only briefly before they were replaced by white squares. The challenge, again, was to touch these squares in the proper sequence.

When the numbers were displayed for about seven-tenths of a second, Ayumu and the college students were both able to do this correctly about 80 percent of the time.

But when the numbers were displayed for just four-tenths or two-tenths of a second, the chimp was the champ. The briefer of those times is too short to allow a look around the screen, and in those tests Ayumu still scored about 80 percent, while humans plunged to 40 percent.

That indicates Ayumu was better at taking in the whole pattern of numbers at a glance, the researchers wrote.

"It's amazing what this chimpanzee is able to do," said Elizabeth Lonsdorf, director of the Lester E. Fisher Center for the Study and Conservation of Apes at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago. The center studies the mental abilities of apes, but Lonsdorf didn't participate in the new study.

She admired Ayumu's performance when the numbers flashed only briefly on the screen.

"I just watched the video of that and I can tell you right now, there's no way I can do it," she said. "It's unbelievable. I can't even get the first two (squares)."

What's going on here? Even with six months of training, three students failed to catch up to the three young chimps, Matsuzawa said in an e-mail.

He thinks two factors gave his chimps the edge. For one thing, he believes human ancestors gave up much of this skill over evolutionary time to make room in the brain for gaining language abilities.

The other factor is the youth of Ayumu and his peers. The memory for images that's needed for the tests resembles a skill found in children, but which dissipates with age. In fact, the young chimps performed better than older chimps in the new study. (Ayumu's mom did even worse than the college students).

So the next logical step, Lonsdorf said, is to fix up Ayumu with some real competition on these tests: little kids.

El_Machinae
I bet about 50% of kids can perform similarly to the chimps in this type of test. Some people are quite good at getting 'flashbulb' images, but we seem to lose this ability when we get older. Some kids are quite good at it, though ... iirc, about 50% of children really excel at remembering glances.

Adults seem to trade this ability for extrapolating meaning, though. Remember looking in the cupboard, not being able to find something ... but then your mom comes along and can find it super-quick? Adults are able to form cohesive connections in what they view a lot more easily, because things mean more when you have more knowledge
photojack
So, newguy, since you seem to be reading up on animal ethology, do you think free-ranging chimps in Africa have morals and show altruistic behavior in the wild? Have you followed Dame Jane Goodall's studies since the '60's like I have? Think the Bible and YOUR religion have exclusive domain over the issue of morals, as if rational, reasoning scientists don't have the capability to form moral judgments without a "sky fairy"? blink.gif
newguy
QUOTE (photojack+)
So, newguy, since you seem to be reading up on animal ethology, do you think free-ranging chimps in Africa have morals and show altruistic behavior in the wild? Have you followed Dame Jane Goodall's studies since the '60's like I have? Think the Bible and YOUR religion have exclusive domain over the issue of morals, as if rational, reasoning scientists don't have the capability to form moral judgments without a "sky fairy"?  blink.gif


photojack: If you were as familiar with my posting history as you claim to be with Jane Goodall's studies, then you would be aware that I have never claimed that animals or atheists have no morals or altruistic behavior. The problem, my dear friend, is that all have fallen short in these areas...need I say more? "Sky fairy"? Never heard of her. Ex-girlfriend of yours? Take care.
PuckSR
QUOTE

photojack: If you were as familiar with my posting history as you claim to be with Jane Goodall's studies, then you would be aware that I have never claimed that animals or atheists have no morals or altruistic behavior. The problem, my dear friend, is that all have fallen short in these areas...need I say more?


All have fallen short of what?
Atheists definitely seem to have more of a moral compass than the bible....

If we are going to have this discussion, it is important to clarify between moral imperatives and social imperatives.

i.e. It is not "morality" that drives a person to go to church on sunday. It is a social imperative. He is not good or bad(morality) for attending church, but rather it is something required by his religion.

Homosexual relations fall into a similar category....
While some societies view the action as "wrong", it is not morally evil...since no harm comes to anyone by the action.

At the same time, murder IS morally wrong....but several societies tolerate the practice given appropriate conditions. However, we can agree that from a purely moral standpoint it is wrong(unless it is done to save another life...in which case we get into long debates)
Derek1148
QUOTE (photojack+Dec 3 2007, 05:21 PM)
So, newguy, since you seem to be reading up on animal ethology, do you think free-ranging chimps in Africa have morals and show altruistic behavior in the wild?  Have you followed Dame Jane Goodall's studies since the '60's like I have?  Think the Bible and YOUR religion have exclusive domain over the issue of morals, as if rational, reasoning scientists don't have the capability to form moral judgments without a "sky fairy"?  blink.gif

You worship at the altar of scientific theory. And you praise the infallibility of science more than a Fundamentalist exalts his god. You attack the religious and mock their beliefs. Do you believe your style benefits the cause you allegedly represent?
El_Machinae
Geez, this got mean quick.

One of my podcasts this weekend (CBC's Quirks and Quarks) had a talk about how monkeys will have temper tantrums if they feel like they're being treated unfairly. They'd perform tasks happily for cucumbers, unless they saw a monkey being paid in bananas for the same task. If they saw that, they'd throw the cucumbers away in disgust smile.gif
PuckSR
QUOTE
You worship at the altar of scientific theory. And you praise the infallibility of science more than a Fundamentalist exalts his god. You attack the religious and mock their beliefs. Do you believe your style benefits the cause you allegedly represent?

I think you read too much into photojack....
He simply loves to argue....which I do too...but he is constantly trying to illicit an argument.

He might behave in exactly the same way when it comes to conversations about his favorite sports team.

It doesn't hurt that NewGuy very strongly and faithfully attacks almost everyone's faith, except his own. However, from my conversations with him, I believe NewGuy attacks as a means of defense.

So there you have it.
Photojack is just an "in your face" kind of guy. It is very annoying, but he doesn't strike me as being very faithful to any position; just highly opinionated.
NewGuy, on the other hand, views everything as a personal attack. He feels heavily obligated to defend. They both essentially end up acting the same, but their motivations are polar opposites.
Derek1148
If one chooses to encourage and engage in verbal combat, then one shouldn’t complain and whine when struck back at (and shouldn’t run to the moderators to complain).
newguy
QUOTE (PuckSR+)
Homosexual relations fall into a similar category....
While some societies view the action as "wrong", it is not morally evil...since no harm comes to anyone by the action.


PuckSR: I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile...actually, I was just thinking about it earlier today and your post reminded me of it.
Here goes:

Are you a homosexual?

If you can honestly answer this question, then I'll tell you why I asked. It is not related to "judging"...

QUOTE (PuckSR+)
It doesn't hurt that NewGuy very strongly and faithfully attacks almost everyone's faith, except his own. However, from my conversations with him, I believe NewGuy attacks as a means of defense.

So there you have it.
Photojack is just an "in your face" kind of guy. It is very annoying, but he doesn't strike me as being very faithful to any position; just highly opinionated.
NewGuy, on the other hand, views everything as a personal attack. He feels heavily obligated to defend. They both essentially end up acting the same, but their motivations are polar opposites.


The rest: In reality(something that seems outside of PuckSR's grasp), I view NOTHING as a "personal attack". My "defense" is in regards to Biblical Christianity. I only "throw myself into the mix" because I am living proof(as are others) that many of the things that are stated on this forum are outright lies. You know, like RealityCheck's recent assertion that religious people are "pre-conditioned" towards violence. Anyhow, although PuckSR is certainly entitled to his own opinion(as are the rest of you), he is by no means my spokesperson. One of these days, when I have a block of time available to me, I will expose the real reasons why PuckSR seeks to characterize me in this light(darkness). Until then, as I told him recently, he can enjoy his "platform of lies". Take care.
PuckSR
QUOTE

PuckSR: I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile...actually, I was just thinking about it earlier today and your post reminded me of it.
Here goes:
Are you a homosexual?
If you can honestly answer this question, then I'll tell you why I asked. It is not related to "judging"...


I can honestly answer the question, but I refuse to answer the question. The answer to that question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussion that could possibly take place between us.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

PuckSR: I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile...actually, I was just thinking about it earlier today and your post reminded me of it.
Here goes:
Are you a homosexual?
If you can honestly answer this question, then I'll tell you why I asked. It is not related to "judging"...


I can honestly answer the question, but I refuse to answer the question. The answer to that question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussion that could possibly take place between us.

I view NOTHING as a "personal attack". My "defense" is in regards to Biblical Christianity. I only "throw myself into the mix" because I am living proof(as are others) that many of the things that are stated on this forum are outright lies. You know, like RealityCheck's recent assertion that religious people are "pre-conditioned" towards violence.

I don't believe RC or I made that claim...
I believe the claim is that religious people have more of an incentive towards violence.

BTW....how is it not personal if you see attacks on biblical christianity(aka Sola Scriptura religions) as an attempt at calling you a liar?
If you are "proof", then when someone claims it did not occur they are basically calling you a liar. That is making it a personal issue.
Just as I am sure a holocaust survivor might take it as a personal attack if someone says the holocaust did not occur.
Majkl
Isnt speci(es)-cide a law of reality? I mean one of the basic ones? Apart from genocide aka holocaust being one of its sub - forms.
newguy
QUOTE (newguy+)
Are you a homosexual?

If you can honestly answer this question, then I'll tell you why I asked. It is not related to "judging"...


QUOTE (PuckSR+)
I can honestly answer the question, but I refuse to answer the question. The answer to that question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussion that could possibly take place between us.


PuckSR: I suspect that you already have answered the question and I totally disagree that the answer to this question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussions between us or you and others. Like I said, if you choose to formally answer the question, then I'll tell you what bearing it has. If not, well... And, please, don't bother PM-ing me. If you can't answer the question publicly, then please don't attempt to answer it at all.

QUOTE (PuckSR+)
I don't believe RC or I made that claim...
I believe the claim is that religious people have more of an incentive towards violence.


QUOTE (RealityCheck+ "Science VS Noah" Dec 1 2007)
It is the INEVITABLE DEGENERATION of 'good intentions' into ease of exploitation/crazy action that is made EASIER by the UNCRITICAL religious/superstitious 'mindset' which is inculcated in 'adherents' by the 'religious/superstitious' method.

THAT is the GREATER danger. The PRE-CONDITIONED MIND being more ready for external CONTROL by unscrupulous individuals/groups IRRESPECTIVE of the 'good intentions' or 'initial worthiness' of the one being so 'prepared' for later exploitation/craziness.


I only mentioned RealityCheck's post because it was recent. Several forum members, including you, have asserted/insinuated that religious people are bent towards violence. Biblical Christians are not. Period.


RealityCheck
QUOTE (newguy to PuckSR+Dec 3 2007, 08:04 PM)

The rest: In reality(something that seems outside of PuckSR's grasp), I view NOTHING as a "personal attack".  My "defense" is in regards to Biblical Christianity.  I only "throw myself into the mix" because I am living proof(as are others) that many of the things that are stated on this forum are outright lies.  You know, like RealityCheck's recent assertion that religious people are "pre-conditioned" towards violence.  Anyhow, although PuckSR is certainly entitled to his own opinion(as are the rest of you), he is by no means my spokesperson.  One of these days, when I have a block of time available to me, I will expose the real reasons why PuckSR seeks to characterize me in this light(darkness).  Until then, as I told him recently, he can enjoy his "platform of lies".  Take care.



Hi newguy! I'd like you to go back and read what I said in my relevant posts. to the effect that......

It is the preconditioning PROCESS that encourages uncritical OBEDIENCE and BELIEFS per se that is the Danger.

That danger being the INCREASED SUSCEPTIBILITY for LATER MANIPULATION by those 'leaders/priests/mullahs' and sundry other MADMEN and CRIMINALS in POWER over those 'pre-conditioned' CAPTIVE 'followers' prte-conditioned that what the 'leaders' say is 'the will of god' etc etc etc.

See? The individual is better manipulated IF FIRST his 'skeptic/critical' FACULTIES are BLUNTED/NEUTRALISED by getting them to 'believe' without question.

THAT is what I said.

NOT that the religious person is ALREADY DISPOSED to violence....but RATHER that the religious person may be MORE EASILY MANIPULATED into doing violence or other IRRATIONAL/OUTRAGEOUS ACTS that are 'justified' by their 'beliefs' ratehr than their SELF-RESONSIBILITY as a rational human being in the same "REALITY BOAT" as the OTHER PERSON.....irrsepective of 'creed' or 'belief' etc.

Just look at the madness and stupidity elicited by the ISLAMIC idiocies and beliefs and laws etc in the 'Teddy' named mohamed affair.

See how INEVITABLE DESCENT INTO MADNESS AND CHAOS ensues where ignorant people are PRE-CONDITIONED AND THEN MANIPULATED to 'believe' that the DEATH PENALTY should apply in that case?

See? That's what advertising and brainwashing for ANY PURPOSE (religious or otherwise) is DANGEROUS if the 'subject' is under total control and out of touch with the reality and self-responsibility that they would otherwise have to 'face' WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO HIDE BEHIND something 'else' (like religion; patriotism; peer/mob activity etc etc etc).

Please get straight that I don't say religious people are violent; only that they are more easily manipulated in the face of reality.....as is any ignorant/deluded person if they are in the control of someone/system that had ASCENDENCY over them.

FORTUNATELY.....YOU, I would say, are too strong-willed and still rooted in reality and the 'true Christian' code of behaviour/ethics to be so easily manipulated....BUT most of the masses of the world are NOT so lucky.....as everyday events will prove to you, hehehe.


I would appreciate it if you could please see your way clear to acknowledgeing that I did NOT accuse religious people of BEING violent per se....only more 'wide-open' to BEING MANIPULATED due to the 'religious pre-conditioning' to follow blindly where INFIDEL 'religious leaders' OF ALL PERSUASIONS 'lead in ther name of their religion/god'. Ta in advance, mate!


Gotta run! Cheers all!

RC.
.
newguy
RealityCheck: First of all, our vast differences aside, for some odd reason(s), I like you. I mention this only to inform you that my dialogue with you holds no malice or ill-will within it. Any "quotes" of yours that I use are used mainly for the purpose of addressing certain points/widely held beliefs. They are not to be construed as personal attacks in any way, shape or form. I think you understand this already, but I felt it "safe" to mention it again. Anyhow, having said that, let me briefly address what you just stated.

QUOTE (RealityCheck+)
Hi newguy! I'd like you to go back and read what I said in my relevant posts. to the effect that......

It is the preconditioning PROCESS that encourages uncritical OBEDIENCE and BELIEFS per se that is the Danger.

That danger being the INCREASED SUSCEPTIBILITY for LATER MANIPULATION by those 'leaders/priests/mullahs' and sundry other MADMEN and CRIMINALS in POWER over those 'pre-conditioned' CAPTIVE 'followers' prte-conditioned that what the 'leaders' say is 'the will of god' etc etc etc.

See? The individual is better manipulated IF FIRST his 'skeptic/critical' FACULTIES are BLUNTED/NEUTRALISED by getting them to 'believe' without question.

THAT is what I said.

NOT that the religious person is ALREADY DISPOSED to violence....but RATHER that the religious person may be MORE EASILY MANIPULATED into doing violence or other IRRATIONAL/OUTRAGEOUS ACTS that are 'justified' by their 'beliefs' ratehr than their SELF-RESONSIBILITY as a rational human being in the same "REALITY BOAT" as the OTHER PERSON.....irrsepective of 'creed' or 'belief' etc.


I know what you said and that was what I was trying to convey when I used the terminology of "pre-conditioned towards violence". You believe that because someone INITIALLY gives "uncritical obedience", they are being PRE-CONDITIONED towards later violence. Although I don't deny that this type of pre-conditioning exists in the world, I am firmly convinced that it is OFTTIMES NOT THE CASE. You seem to believe that people started off "Okay" and because of allowing other people to "brainwash" them, they became potentially violent. Is this correct? Seems so. Let me try an analogy that may or may not fail, but hopefully you'll understand my point anyway(if you give me a "fair shake"). I have had the pleasure/displeasure of watching fairly good chunks of both the Republican debates and the Democratic debates over here in the United States in the recent past. Do you HONESTLY believe that ALL the Republicans are "true" to their party or do some of them/all of them have ulterior motives? For example, I watched an interview with John McCain a while back in which he admitted that one of the main reasons that he wants to become President is his EGO. You know, being the "Commander in Chief" of the world's largest superpower. Is EGO officially part of the Republican platform? Why are Republicans at odds with each other during the debates and before/afterwards? Are there different types of Republicans or is there one Republican platform? It seems to me(and this could equally be said about Democrats) that several of the Republicans would be better identified as INDEPENDENTS, as they have ideologies that are INDEPENDENT of the Republican platform. Where did these INDEPENDENT ideologies come from? From WITHIN the Republican platform or from WITHOUT it? Hopefully, you can understand that they originated from somewhere OUTSIDE OF the Republican platform or else they would conform to/be in line with the Republican platform. What then of a supposed "Christian" who is violent? Does Biblical Christianity teach/condone violence from the professing Christian? NO! IT DOES NOT! This behavior is totally INDEPENDENT from Biblical Christianity. Where then did this propensity(if it actually exists within a professing Christian) toward violence come from? From WITHIN Christianity or from WITHOUT Christianity? Do you see my point? Yes, there are many violent people(INDEPENDENTS) within professing Christianity(and other religions), but I would suggest to you that a GREAT DEAL OF THEM were ALREADY VIOLENT BEFORE they ever embraced what "flavor" of Christianity they presently find themself in. Do some of these people "use" their religion to justify their ALREADY VIOLENT CONDITION? You bet. You, in my opinion, are "putting the cart before the horse" IN MANY INSTANCES. I hope/trust that you understand. Good night.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 3 2007, 10:56 PM)
RealityCheck: First of all, our vast differences aside, for some odd reason(s), I like you.  I mention this only to inform you that my dialogue with you holds no malice or ill-will within it.  Any "quotes" of yours that I use are used mainly for the purpose of addressing certain points/widely held beliefs.  They are not to be construed as personal attacks in any way, shape or form.  I think you understand this already, but I felt it "safe" to mention it again.  Anyhow, having said that, let me briefly address what you just stated.

QUOTE (RealityCheck+)
Hi newguy! I'd like you to go back and read what I said in my relevant posts. to the effect that......

It is the preconditioning PROCESS that encourages uncritical OBEDIENCE and BELIEFS per se that is the Danger.

That danger being the INCREASED SUSCEPTIBILITY for LATER MANIPULATION by those 'leaders/priests/mullahs' and sundry other MADMEN and CRIMINALS in POWER over those 'pre-conditioned' CAPTIVE 'followers' prte-conditioned that what the 'leaders' say is 'the will of god' etc etc etc.

See? The individual is better manipulated IF FIRST his 'skeptic/critical' FACULTIES are BLUNTED/NEUTRALISED by getting them to 'believe' without question.

THAT is what I said.

NOT that the religious person is ALREADY DISPOSED to violence....but RATHER that the religious person may be MORE EASILY MANIPULATED into doing violence or other IRRATIONAL/OUTRAGEOUS ACTS that are 'justified' by their 'beliefs' ratehr than their SELF-RESONSIBILITY as a rational human being in the same "REALITY BOAT" as the OTHER PERSON.....irrsepective of 'creed' or 'belief' etc.


I know what you said and that was what I was trying to convey when I used the terminology of "pre-conditioned towards violence". You believe that because someone INITIALLY gives "uncritical obedience", they are being PRE-CONDITIONED towards later violence. Although I don't deny that this type of pre-conditioning exists in the world, I am firmly convinced that it is OFTTIMES NOT THE CASE. You seem to believe that people started off "Okay" and because of allowing other people to "brainwash" them, they became potentially violent. Is this correct? Seems so. Let me try an analogy that may or may not fail, but hopefully you'll understand my point anyway(if you give me a "fair shake"). I have had the pleasure/displeasure of watching fairly good chunks of both the Republican debates and the Democratic debates over here in the United States in the recent past. Do you HONESTLY believe that ALL the Republicans are "true" to their party or do some of them/all of them have ulterior motives? For example, I watched an interview with John McCain a while back in which he admitted that one of the main reasons that he wants to become President is his EGO. You know, being the "Commander in Chief" of the world's largest superpower. Is EGO officially part of the Republican platform? Why are Republicans at odds with each other during the debates and before/afterwards? Are there different types of Republicans or is there one Republican platform? It seems to me(and this could equally be said about Democrats) that several of the Republicans would be better identified as INDEPENDENTS, as they have ideologies that are INDEPENDENT of the Republican platform. Where did these INDEPENDENT ideologies come from? From WITHIN the Republican platform or from WITHOUT it? Hopefully, you can understand that they originated from somewhere OUTSIDE OF the Republican platform or else they would conform to/be in line with the Republican platform. What then of a supposed "Christian" who is violent? Does Biblical Christianity teach/condone violence from the professing Christian? NO! IT DOES NOT! This behavior is totally INDEPENDENT from Biblical Christianity. Where then did this propensity(if it actually exists within a professing Christian) toward violence come from? From WITHIN Christianity or from WITHOUT Christianity? Do you see my point? Yes, there are many violent people(INDEPENDENTS) within professing Christianity(and other religions), but I would suggest to you that a GREAT DEAL OF THEM were ALREADY VIOLENT BEFORE they ever embraced what "flavor" of Christianity they presently find themself in. Do some of these people "use" their religion to justify their ALREADY VIOLENT CONDITION? You bet. You, in my opinion, are "putting the cart before the horse" IN MANY INSTANCES. I hope/trust that you understand. Good night.



Hi newguy!

Yeah, I hear you. No offence taken; just posted that for clarification purposes.

And you're right. There IS all sorts of 'pre-conditioning' even BEFORE one becomes 'religious'.

However, as MOST of the world's population STARTS OUT as CHILDREN being 'pre-conditioned' in one religious/superstitious 'system' of 'beliefs/attitudes' or other, is it any wonder that as ADULTS they have a PRECONDITIONED 'legacy' of tending towards 'fantasy' and 'irrationalism' UNTIL they rid themselves of all THAT pre-condition when reality hits full force (perforce of objective logic/thinking and objective observation)?

When I mention pre-conditioning, I also pointed to 'advertising' tactics/methods etc as the 'model' for what is being STILL DONE TODAY in places like the Sudan where ignorants/believers act CLEARLY CONTRARY to REASON, merely because their 'religious' leaders 'convince' them that that is what 'god' wants when asking for jail/death penalty in that instance.

See? One can't get away from 'pre-conditioning' PER SE....it starts from BIRTH. BUT, one can reduce the worst consequences of such things by being SKEPTICAL AT ALL TIMES when finally old enough to think for one's self.

That is what SCIENCE ENABLES ONE TO DO. Such that, even if one ABUSES science for one's own ends, THEY can't 'justify' it simply by claiming some sort of DIVINE RIGHTS in the matter. Which means that in the long run, any ABUSER of science will have to face the SCRUTINY of OTHER scietists and then be 'falsified' accordingly'.

Whereas, as I posted earlier, any other 'religion' ABUSERS will merely form their OWMN SCHISM with their TRAPPED 'believers' over whom they ALREADY gained 'ascendancy' via 'pre-conditioning' methods stripping them of critical/objective options 'under pain of DEATH' etc etc.

I hope this clarifies further what I was saying, mate!

And I DO understand your own point of view. It's just that not ALL adults are as RATIONAL and RESISTENT to these pre-conditioning methods (af all types/purposes) as you and I and most here are (I hope!hehehe).

Cheers all!

RC.
.






PuckSR
QUOTE
PuckSR: I suspect that you already have answered the question and I totally disagree that the answer to this question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussions between us or you and others. Like I said, if you choose to formally answer the question, then I'll tell you what bearing it has. If not, well... And, please, don't bother PM-ing me. If you can't answer the question publicly, then please don't attempt to answer it at all.


Glad I could answer the question by not answering....
Honestly, unless you can demonstrate how my sexual preference has ANY BEARING on a conversation....I refuse to answer it on the grounds of it being a specious question

I hate to see your dislike for me turn into attraction, but you do seem to be rather oddly obsessed with my sexual preferences.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
PuckSR: I suspect that you already have answered the question and I totally disagree that the answer to this question has absolutely NO BEARING on any discussions between us or you and others. Like I said, if you choose to formally answer the question, then I'll tell you what bearing it has. If not, well... And, please, don't bother PM-ing me. If you can't answer the question publicly, then please don't attempt to answer it at all.


Glad I could answer the question by not answering....
Honestly, unless you can demonstrate how my sexual preference has ANY BEARING on a conversation....I refuse to answer it on the grounds of it being a specious question

I hate to see your dislike for me turn into attraction, but you do seem to be rather oddly obsessed with my sexual preferences.

I only mentioned RealityCheck's post because it was recent. Several forum members, including you, have asserted/insinuated that religious people are bent towards violence. Biblical Christians are not. Period.

Actually, I have made no such claim....
My claim is that religious people are more emotionally motivated....and emotionally motivated people are far more likely to be violent.

Which point do you disagree with?
Do you believe that religious people are less emotional than atheists when defending their views?
Do you believe that emotional people are not more prone to violence?
If you doubt my claims, simply look at the middle east.
The Muslims were not always hyper-fanatics that committed suicide bombings, but they became that way.
There are two paths towards violence in religion:
Absolute belief that you are the correct faith(like you believe).
Absolute faith in something concrete(such as a religious text), this is important because it lacks the same flexibility that a more philosophical and fluid faith would allow.

"Biblical Christians"?
Is that a new term for pentecostal Christians?
The only "biblical Christians" I know about can trace their origins to the American Pentecostal movement.

Majkl
Has anyone read a researches done by biologists on monkeys communities? This is a very rough description of what i came across missing lots of details. Biologists had two gropus of same type of monkeys, one being agressive community and other not. They switched the little ones thus taking a child from agressive group and putting it into a calm one and vice -versa. They observed that a child from agressive group was behaving calmly in a calm group and vice versa. Of course they were taken and replaced as infants. It was a clear proof of environment effecting behaviour. Thus there are gazzilions but this was one of the obvious ones. I also read about a story of an agressive group of monkeys who were lead by few agressive males. These males were bold and couaregous thus they were courageous enough to wander into nearby city to look for food. They ate from trash canes and got a virus. Thus they died. Community that was existing started to change their social behaviour. Females were shared, males that were sub-ordinate to dead alphas were less agressive and community even started to mix with outsiders. Its on the internet somewhere and its very nicely described.
Of course mirroring or imitating as long as it works does have an effect. Thus when it doesnt work, when brains dont mirror or imitate behaviour well enough its then that weird stuff starts to happen. Thus brains can imitate bad behaviour as well. Brains dont have prefered frame of reference in my opinion. Thus one could say that majority of children imitate and mirror behaviour well. Minority however does not. This minority is non-conformant. They cannot be as emphatic as majority. Its the way their body works. Nobody is guilty of that however. Its random and basically it is the same as being colour blind. Majority is emphatic. So its a standard.
Majority is not colour blind. So its a standard. But being colour blind doesnt make you
dangerous, while not being emphatic does. Start from randomness and dont pre-condition your own thinking. Let things show themselves as raw as they are and you will see that psychopats-as we call such state- for example are clearly lacking empathy. They are incapable of imitating or mirroring your emotions. They almost cannot do it. They can pretend however. But it is as if a colour blind person pretended to see colours. Of course i am not saying its just a matter of brain. The other side again is social pre-conditioning. If you are laughed at and ridiculed you respond accordingly thus many paths can lead to supressed empathy be it natural or by social pre-conditioning. Its a very complex topic to say the least.
I am not qualified for any of things i talk about of course. But i know what randomness is. You can read lots of this stuff and all you can see is randomness all over. Initial conditions, rapid changes, tendencies...
For example there was a story about lioness that nurtured a gazel i think. There is a factual story of wolf-female or some other species that killed her own infants. She was naturally isolated from the rest of her pack. You can see for example in Meerkat documentaries that Alpha-female does not allow sub-ordinate females to have their own children under her leadership or so i understand. There was a story about dingo who attacked a newly formed dingo family. Thus he attacked male first and killed him. Then he ate all the puppies and after that he chased the female. He chased her for two months or something and he formed a new family with her. Be sure to check reality first.
procyon
Us monkeys love to throw our doo.
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