photojack
16th November 2007 - 02:56 PM
To get back to the intention of this thread, I'll quote "chapter and verse" from Gibbon, that famous historian of the Roman empire:

QUOTE
"In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem...[dug up the remains of the martyr Stephen]...and when the...remains of Stephen [were] shewn to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour, such as that of paradise, was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy three of the assistants. The...relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue.
The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested [in The City of God] the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa, by the relics of St. Stephen...[indeed, he] enumerates...seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese. If we enlarge our view to all the dioceses, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe, that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary, and established, laws of nature." (Gibbon, vol. 2, ch. 28, pp. 92-93)
In my travels, I have personally seen and photographed such reliquaries of gold and precious gems, containing a bone fragment from some alleged saint!

I attended a service at a Russian Orthodox church where an icon painting was strutted around that allegedly "weeped" a fluid that had miraculous healing powers!

The priest would rub cotton balls in the fluid and give them to members of the congregation. I still have mine, but somehow it failed to convince me,...
or convert me! 
The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry would certainly have fun with this!
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
"In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem...[dug up the remains of the martyr Stephen]...and when the...remains of Stephen [were] shewn to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour, such as that of paradise, was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy three of the assistants. The...relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue. The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested [in The City of God] the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa, by the relics of St. Stephen...[indeed, he] enumerates...seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese. If we enlarge our view to all the dioceses, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe, that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary, and established, laws of nature." (Gibbon, vol. 2, ch. 28, pp. 92-93) |
In my travels, I have personally seen and photographed such reliquaries of gold and precious gems, containing a bone fragment from some alleged saint!

I attended a service at a Russian Orthodox church where an icon painting was strutted around that allegedly "weeped" a fluid that had miraculous healing powers!

The priest would rub cotton balls in the fluid and give them to members of the congregation. I still have mine, but somehow it failed to convince me,...
or convert me! 
The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry would certainly have fun with this!
"It should be clear that Gibbon is not issuing a philosophical argument, but stating a simple case demonstrated by historical evidence: we observe so much fraud and credulity in those days, it would be irrational to believe anything that smelled of the same character. Moreover, there were so many miracles all over the Roman Empire in those times that they became as common as natural events.
What, then, can explain their sudden disappearance in the past few centuries? Observing the first fact, Gibbon, like all sound historians, sees in it an ideal explanation of the second fact: fraud and credulity were far more common, or far more successful, then than they are now. Isn't that a very reasonable conclusion? For more evidence supporting this very point, you can read Hume's many examples, as well as another essay on this subject, "Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire" by Richard Carrier (1997)."
If Richard Carrier had been at that church service, he couldn't have said "sudden disappearance"! Kooks and quacks seem to be alive and well as attested to by Terral, Apostle and God_Hates_Me! [U]The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire[/I], was known principally for the quality and irony of its prose, its use of primary sources, and its open denigration of organized religion. High rates of illiteracy in those times may explain the rampant gullibility of the masses, but now? In the 21st century? ((

))
Derek1148
16th November 2007 - 02:59 PM
QUOTE (photojack+Nov 16 2007, 02:56 PM)
In my travels, I have personally seen and photographed such reliquaries of gold and precious gems, containing a bone fragment from some alleged saint!

I attended a service at a Russian Orthodox church where an icon painting was strutted around that allegedly "weeped" a fluid that had miraculous healing powers!

The priest would rub cotton balls in the fluid and give them to members of the congregation. I still have mine, but somehow it failed to convince me,...
or convert me! 
The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry would certainly have fun with this!
If Richard Carrier had been at that church service, he couldn't have said "sudden disappearance"! Kooks and quacks seem to be alive and well as attested to by Terral, Apostle and God_Hates_Me! [U]The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire[/I], was known principally for the quality and irony of its prose, its use of primary sources, and its open denigration of organized religion. High rates of illiteracy in those times may explain the rampant gullibility of the masses, but now? In the 21st century? ((

))
It is probably all a Republican conspiracy.
photojack
16th November 2007 - 04:19 PM
That was pretty funny! ((

)) But I would be willing to bet that there are far more Republicans who believe that cr*p than Progressives (Democrats). After all, we know who the "Christian Coalition" supports!

High rates of illiteracy in ancient times may explain the rampant gullibility of the masses, but now? In the 21st century? ((

))
gmilam
16th November 2007 - 04:34 PM
It's the liberal/atheistic press that's covering up all the evidence for modern day miracles.
Everyone knows that.
RealityCheck
16th November 2007 - 10:24 PM
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 16 2007, 04:34 PM)
It's the liberal/atheistic press that's covering up all the evidence for modern day miracles.
Everyone knows that.

Hahahahaha! You slay me, gmilam! Good one, hehehe.
And photojack: You should add to your properly skeptical 'miracles' post the point that IF all these 'religious relics' were 'genuine', the their would BE no sickness or death at all; since with the advent of modern fast mass travel, the WHOLE WORLD 'and his dog' would be cured by a simple train/bus/boat/plane ride to those 'shrines', hehehe!
More snake oil. Although, just like PLACEBOS, it can't hurt those that have no other option except to 'believe' religion/relics can do something for them BY HARNESSING THE POWER OF THEIR OWN SUBCONCIOUS MIND to CURE THEMSELVES if 'positive/hopeful' thinking outlook results from such 'beliefs'.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
gmilam
16th November 2007 - 10:39 PM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 16 2007, 04:24 PM)
Hahahahaha! You slay me, gmilam! Good one, hehehe.
And photojack: You should add to your properly skeptical 'miracles' post the point that IF all these 'religious relics' were 'genuine', the their would BE no sickness or death at all; since with the advent of modern fast mass travel, the WHOLE WORLD 'and his dog' would be cured by a simple train/bus/boat/plane ride to those 'shrines', hehehe!
More snake oil. Although, just like PLACEBOS, it can't hurt those that have no other option except to 'believe' religion/relics can do something for them BY HARNESSING THE POWER OF THEIR OWN SUBCONCIOUS MIND to CURE THEMSELVES if 'positive/hopeful' thinking outlook results from such 'beliefs'.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Hey RC!
I've "seen you" around the forum lately, but haven't had the chance to say hello. Glad to see you're still as tenacious as ever.
It is true that positive thought can do wonders. One of my best friends has had her body ravaged by cancer, MS and scoliosis... But she still has a positive outlook and a love of life that is truly contagious. No placebos or relics needed.
The sheer power of the human spirit can be truly inspirational.
Cheers my friend,
Glenn
RealityCheck
16th November 2007 - 10:49 PM
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 16 2007, 10:39 PM)
Hey RC!
I've "seen you" around the forum lately, but haven't had the chance to say hello. Glad to see you're still as tenacious as ever.
It is true that positive thought can do wonders. One of my best friends has had her body ravaged by cancer, MS and scoliosis... But she still has a positive outlook and a love of life that is truly contagious. No placebos or relics needed.
The sheer power of the human spirit can be truly inspirational.
Cheers my friend,
Glenn
True! How much more 'divine' can you get than a mere frail and mortal human mind/knowledge/spirit can grow by such leaps and bounds from 'nothing' and now take on the worst that the human condition can throw at it?!
My most positive/empathetic thoughts go to your friend, mate. I also hope and trust that you and yours are as well as can be for as long as possible into the exciting future. See ya round!
RC.
.
photojack
18th November 2007 - 03:21 AM
Please see my post in the "Religion, Human Evolution Definition, religion is culture is biology." thread! This is what I propose to bring an end to replying/
relying on miracles!
QUOTE
"Maslow also proposed that people who have reached self-actualization will sometimes experience a state he referred to as "transcendence," in which they become aware of not only their own fullest potential, but the fullest potential of human beings at large. He described this transcendence and its characteristics in an essay in the posthumously published The Farther Reaches of Human Nature."
skeptic griggsy
25th November 2007 - 03:49 AM

It neither begs the question nor sandbags theists in asking for evidence to overthrow the presumption of naturalism-that only natural forces operate,not a deity. This is the demand for evidence.Einstein overcame the experience of what Newton showed.
When one checks out miralcles they turn out to be natural or frauds. We are left,perforce, to reject those of religion.Yeshua was just another miraclemonger of his time!
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click
here.