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Gorgeous
If your faith is strong enough, it will not matter that others deny it. Their faith is for them to decide, and yours is already decided, because Truth has no decision to make, and your faith is true, right?


g.
photojack
g. There is at least something approaching "universal truth" and science most closely satisfies and exemplifies that realm. cool.gif The very fragmentation of religions, need I remind you of the approximately 5,000 known world religions, speaks loudly toward "faith" NOT being the Truth! ohmy.gif If people choose "faith", they are not choosing Truth! Of course, belief in "miracles" is very similar. Choose science and approach the "nirvana" of real universal knowledge!

QUOTE
I would fill the glass to the top, drink to science and eliminate the confusion!
biggrin.gif laugh.gif
Gorgeous
Well, pj, that depends upon your definition of 'faith'. I say it is only possible to have faith in Truth, just as science does. Any 'other' kind of faith would be just an illusion, which cannot exist in the reality, so there can only be one kind of faith, and that is in established fact. To say that science has no faith in its own established facts would render it completely useless, and we don't want to do that now, do we?

Belief, on the other hand, is based not on facts, but assumptions, which may or may not be actual, real, truthful, honest, etc...


g.
Derek1148
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Nov 11 2007, 12:01 AM)
Well, pj, that depends upon your definition of 'faith'. I say it is only possible to have faith in Truth, just as science does. Any 'other' kind of faith would be just an illusion, which cannot exist in the reality, so there can only be one kind of faith, and that is in established fact. To say that science has no faith in its own established facts would render it completely useless, and we don't want to do that now, do we?

Belief, on the other hand, is based not on facts, but assumptions, which may or may not be actual, real, truthful, honest, etc...


g.

There is “Scientific Truth” which in some cases is universally accepted (and can be proven).

“Religious Truth” may or may not exist. But without a doubt there is not universal acceptance (and lacks the ability to be proven).
rethinker
QUOTE (Derek1148+Nov 11 2007, 12:25 AM)

“Religious Truth” may or may not exist. But without a doubt there is not universal acceptance (and lacks the ability to be proven).

[/QUOTE]lacks the ability to be proven

Do you think faith will give proof to those who seek it?

Derek1148
QUOTE (rethinker+Nov 11 2007, 12:37 AM)
Do you think faith will give proof to those who seek it?

Faith might give hope but I don’t believe it will produce truth. But hope is important.
photojack
Hope is important, but it doesn't answer a thing! (For Derek1148) wink.gif

QUOTE
"Do you think faith will give proof to those who seek it?"
rethinker quote.

Faith could give proof, depending upon where it is directed. Religious faith will never give any proof. unsure.gif Faith in science and/or mathematics could in most circumstances. An example being, having faith in the reasoning that the radiation of Darwin's Finches into the new niches on the Galapagos Islands conclusively proves macro evolution to be factual. Hope won't do that and "religious faith" certainly won't either! Their speciation wasn't a "miracle" either, just the natural progression of evolutionary trends. cool.gif

And about the assumptions of g.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"Do you think faith will give proof to those who seek it?"
rethinker quote.

Faith could give proof, depending upon where it is directed. Religious faith will never give any proof. unsure.gif Faith in science and/or mathematics could in most circumstances. An example being, having faith in the reasoning that the radiation of Darwin's Finches into the new niches on the Galapagos Islands conclusively proves macro evolution to be factual. Hope won't do that and "religious faith" certainly won't either! Their speciation wasn't a "miracle" either, just the natural progression of evolutionary trends. cool.gif

And about the assumptions of g.

"Belief, on the other hand, is based not on facts, but assumptions, which may or may not be actual, real, truthful, honest, etc..."


Belief, NOT based on facts...? blink.gif It certainly should! Without getting into ridiculously over-critical semantic objections, where would civilization be, our books, our cumulative knowledge, our scientific legacy and understanding, how could we have accomplished anything of merit, without belief in facts? Could Van Leeuwenhoek have ground his microscope lenses without the facts of optics? Could we have launched and deployed the Mars rovers without "rocket scientists"? None of that would have happened with just "assumptions, which may or may not be actual, real, truthful, honest, etc..."

Factual beliefs, creativity, drive and innovation are the seeds of science, advancement of knowledge and our cultural heritage. Hope may inspire some people's accomplishments, religion may even help a little, but neither could be called the most important of elements overall. Belief in the scientific method, which leads to new technologies, understandings of our place in nature, advancements in medical and health care and more, is what has contributed the most to our rise.

SCIENCE PREVAILS, RELIGION FAILS! tongue.gif
Derek1148
QUOTE (photojack+Nov 12 2007, 08:02 AM)
Hope is important, but it doesn't answer a thing! (For Derek1148) wink.gif

If a child is seriously injured or gravely ill, hope can be an important component in dealing with the situation. That is why there are chapels in hospitals. Not that medical science is surrendering to religion but that hope offers comfort.

But more importantly, you and I never concluded our discussion from another thread. And you never answered my question. (With the exclusion of the girl scouts), have you ever worn a uniform?
PuckSR
QUOTE
If a child is seriously injured or gravely ill, hope can be an important component in dealing with the situation. That is why there are chapels in hospitals. Not that medical science is surrendering to religion but that hope offers comfort.

It definitely can be, but you are making the rather fallacious argument that religion is the only institution that offers hope....

A Christian Church offers hope to a Christian.....but I doubt it would bring much hope to a pagan.

Atheists can have hope, it is simply a state of mind.
Take the famous prayer survey experiment, where people were prayed for...and the only people who garnered a positive benefit were the ones that were told they were being prayed for....
How much better do you think people would do if they were (falsely)told that they were getting better(and they believed the doctors)?
Or if they knew that their loved ones were supporting them?

Hope != religion....
And actually, given the message of many religions....I would say that frequently religion destroys hope. How many homosexuals raised in conservative Christian homes do you think have committed suicide?
Derek1148
The chapels in hospitals attempt to be somewhat non-denominational. Whether they succeed in that attempt is subjective. No one is forced to go in and pray. If you’re asking me if I have seen any miracles as of a result of prayer, the answer is no. I have seen parents pray for a result that was ultimately achieved by medical science.

But I still don’t discount the value of hope to provide comfort to a suffering child.
PuckSR
I am simply saying that chapels, churches, or religion in general only gives hope to the religious....

I agree that hope is a good thing....but if religion disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow....we would still have hope....
Derek1148
There is an expression: “There are no atheists in a foxhole.”
PuckSR
Yeah...there is that expression....
But is it true?

What exactly is comforting about a Christian-tinted religious belief in a foxhole?
Its fairly obvious that God is not great about answering prayers or keeping you alive....

Most soldiers are superstitious....but a silly superstition could easily take the place of the hope offered by religion....
Derek1148
Some have good memories of Church activities, which remind them of family. Sisters, brothers, mother, and father. Perhaps it is not simply God they wish to be contact with, but the past.
PuckSR
sure...they want the memories....
But, in that case....religion is simply a non-important anchoring pt...
Derek1148
QUOTE (PuckSR+Nov 12 2007, 08:07 PM)
sure...they want the memories....
But, in that case....religion is simply a non-important anchoring pt...

Maybe. Some do need the anchor.
photojack
QUOTE
"But more importantly, you and I never concluded our discussion from another thread. And you never answered my question. (With the exclusion of the girl scouts), have you ever worn a uniform?"
Derek 1148 quote, with completely inappropriate and unjustifiable parenthetical segment included. wacko.gif

Derek1148, I had previously, on the same thread (Nov. 10th) brought up a couple of appropriate and on topic points that you failed to respond to, remember? Your, "Self defense is not a political issue" statement. You have yet to clarify or explain that one! Then, I did respond appropriately to your query with this:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"But more importantly, you and I never concluded our discussion from another thread. And you never answered my question. (With the exclusion of the girl scouts), have you ever worn a uniform?"
Derek 1148 quote, with completely inappropriate and unjustifiable parenthetical segment included. wacko.gif

Derek1148, I had previously, on the same thread (Nov. 10th) brought up a couple of appropriate and on topic points that you failed to respond to, remember? Your, "Self defense is not a political issue" statement. You have yet to clarify or explain that one! Then, I did respond appropriately to your query with this:

"What in the hell is that supposed to imply?  huh.gif  Does it matter?  blink.gif   Have you ever worn a military uniform?  Please address the many pertinent points I brought up, or I will have to assume you have joined Mong H. Tan's policy of avoidance!  Or should I call it "plausible denial."


With that preface, I will answer it now. No, I haven't worn a military uniform. I was in marching band in high school and proudly wore our first place band's uniform for all three years of high school. I've probably been judged for more precision marching maneuvers and formations than most military men. What the hell point are you trying to make? Now, answer my pertinent questions, including that of your military record AND my other points I brought up or concede defeat! dry.gif

P.S. Please justify your apparent adulation of "Dubya" and condemnation of Roosevelt. I backed up my statements with historical evidence. Where's yours? laugh.gif
Derek1148
Hey photojack,

Did you complain to the moderators about our conversation here?
rethinker
QUOTE (Derek1148+Nov 13 2007, 08:54 AM)
Hey photojack,

Did you complain to the moderators about our conversation here?

I think you should ask but I bet it is from your insult to Photojack.
It was politically incorrect, and stupid.
Derek1148
rethinker,

I don’t specifically recall asking for your opinion. However, I will evaluate your comments.
rethinker
QUOTE (rethinker+Nov 13 2007, 11:23 AM)
I think you should ask but I bet it is from your insult to Photojack.
It was politically incorrect, and stupid.

Paul
You posted on a world view web site.
The forum is for comments from anyone in the world.
If you wanted it to not have comments, why did you post it for the whole world?
I will respect your wish from now on.
photojack
Thank you rethinker! That is why I included the, "with completely inappropriate and unjustifiable parenthetical segment included." wacko.gif statement!

You will notice that Derek1148 has not addressed to date, the many pertinent statements and questions I brought up. Need we say more! biggrin.gif

Derek1148 needs to pull in his horns, realize his mistake, apologize and go on. blink.gif Until that happens, I will follow him around like I have with Mr. Tan (Mong H. Tan, PhD.) and we'll see who comes out looking good and who will have major blemishes in their record! ohmy.gif Derek 1148 seems to think by asking rhetorical (and usually unrelated) questions, he can divert attention from his losing stance. It won't work. I am not plagued by a short attention span! tongue.gif
Derek1148
QUOTE (rethinker+Nov 14 2007, 12:13 AM)
Paul
You posted on a world view web site.
The forum is for comments from anyone in the world.
If you wanted it to not have comments, why did you post it for the whole world?
I will respect your wish from now on.

Who is Paul?
photojack
Derek1148, You are proving my point! ((laugh.gif)) Another diversionary tactic. It won't work! dry.gif Address mine and rethinker's concerns. No miracle is required, just humble yourself and reply. ohmy.gif We're waiting. rolleyes.gif

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=15885&st=420#
Derek1148
QUOTE (photojack+Nov 14 2007, 02:11 AM)
Derek1148,  You are proving my point!  ((laugh.gif))  Another diversionary tactic.  It won't work!  dry.gif  Address mine and rethinker's concerns.  No miracle is required, just humble yourself and reply.  ohmy.gif  We're waiting.  rolleyes.gif

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=15885&st=420#

It is difficult to debate with an individual who with half of his mind creates delusions and with the other half convinces himself that his delusions are true. Then bases his conclusions on his delusions.

All atheists are not benevolent and all religious people are not evil. The world is not black and white. It is gray.

And I do not recall ever mentioning the current President by name. Or espousing support of this administration. (I have stated support of the war.) Or making any derogatory statements concerning Franklin Roosevelt. These are your delusions.

I asked you if you thought Roosevelt was great man? Roosevelt was good president and I believe an honorable man. He also directed the imprisonment in concentration camps of Japanese-American citizens. These Japanese-American citizens lost their freedom, their homes, their livelihoods, and in some cases their lives. Was Roosevelt right? (I believe he was.) How does the imprisonment of these citizens match up on a morality scale with Watergate?

You want to discuss issues? I’ll discuss issues with you. Or do you want to continue your semi-coherent liberal dribble, which saturated with smiley faces?

And I still don't know who in the hell Paul is.
rethinker
QUOTE (Derek1148+Nov 14 2007, 01:15 AM)
Who is Paul?

Sorry Derek
I messed that one up.
I wanted to use your name Derek

I was just trying to help you see why maybe you got a warning.
I hope you would do the same for me.
Derek1148
QUOTE (rethinker+Nov 14 2007, 03:13 AM)
Sorry Derek
I messed that one up.
I wanted to use your name Derek

I was just trying to help you see why maybe you got a warning.
I hope you would do the same for me.

Thanks. I appreciate your post. (And feel free to give your opinion of any of my posts.)
PuckSR
How is this political discussion in any way relevant to the topic of miracles?
Derek1148
QUOTE (PuckSR+Nov 14 2007, 04:54 PM)
How is this political discussion in any way relevant to the topic of miracles?

Point taken.
Gorgeous

QUOTE
Belief, NOT based on facts...? blink.gif It certainly should! Without getting into ridiculously over-critical semantic objections, where would civilization be, our books, our cumulative knowledge, our scientific legacy and understanding, how could we have accomplished anything of merit, without belief in facts? Could Van Leeuwenhoek have ground his microscope lenses without the facts of optics? Could we have launched and deployed the Mars rovers without "rocket scientists"? None of that would have happened with just "assumptions, which may or may not be actual, real, truthful, honest, etc..."


We seem to be saying the same thing, but the other way round rolleyes.gif "Without getting into ridiculously over-critical semantic objections" - That's the very motivation for sorting out the contradiction. Why do religions need 'faith' and 'belief'? - I think it is just a mis-education of words.

So, yes, we obviously believe 'facts', but I feel that we can only have faith in Truth, that which is actual, otherwise there is simply nothing there to ponder at all. People tend to believe just about any old wild thing they like, as you, pj, quite rightly point out, and which sometimes includes 'facts', as well. There is no one who is always 'wrong', just like there is no one who is always 'right'. Surely only Truth can always be 'correct', and therefore the only real thing worth having any 'faith' in?

You have faith in science, don't you? - Or do you just 'believe' in it?


g.
photojack
g. Gee, here we go again. ohmy.gif It seems you are engaging in ridiculously over-critical semantic objections! Your whole post revolved around a discussion of "faith" versus "belief." I looked up both in my "largest, most comprehensive thesaurus in print" and found they are synonyms! Not surprising to me at all. When I looked up "belief" the word faith followed a ways down the list. When I looked up "faith" the word belief was the first word in the list! So, what are you getting at? Or is it just a "mis-education" of words? blink.gif

BTW, I have a great respect for science, scientists and the lay people who understand it. Neither faith nor belief really enter the picture. wink.gif
Gorgeous
QUOTE (photojack+Nov 15 2007, 12:56 AM)
g.  Gee, here we go again.    ohmy.gif  It seems you are engaging in ridiculously over-critical semantic objections!  Your whole post revolved around a discussion of "faith" versus "belief."  I looked up both in my "largest, most comprehensive thesaurus in print" and found they are synonyms!  Not surprising to me at all.  When I looked up "belief" the word faith followed a ways down the list.  When I looked up "faith" the word belief was the first word in the list!  So, what are you getting at?  Or is it just a "mis-education" of words?  blink.gif

BTW, I have a great respect for science, scientists and the lay people who understand it.  Neither faith nor belief really enter the picture.  wink.gif

Entirely your prerogative, sweetie.

Like I already said, my motivation for sorting out the contradiction was so that the confusion does not continue. I have faith in this being the true scientific method. If you have respect for the scientific method, you will know the importance of sorting out contradiction. However, you obviously have your own reasons. If you want confusion to continue, you will find a way to make it happen, I'm sure.

The "largest, most comprehensive thesaurus in print" is still only a book of words. It is you who must do the understanding.


g.
photojack
g. There is no confusion or contradiction. You were trying to separate synonyms with no basis in fact or apparent reason. I was posting for clarity, that's why I backed up what I said with an authoritative reference work! The confusion only continues in your mind, sweetie! wink.gif

This is how religion and politics mix in an inappropriate way, courtesy of the Republican blight advocated by adoucette and Derek1148! dry.gif ohmy.gif

QUOTE
 
Conservatism's Unintelligent Design.

By Greg Anrig, Jr.

"Last night, PBS aired a superb Nova documentary about the Dover, Pennsylvania “intelligent design” case. My 11-year twins were as riveted as I was as the story unfolded from the suspicious burning of a student’s mural depicting man’s evolution from apes, to a school committee member’s questioning of how the high school’s science teachers approach evolution, to raucous board meetings, through the trial. Throughout, both Darwin’s theory and the arguments made on behalf of intelligent design were presented carefully, engagingly, and clearly enough so my kids (and even I) could fully understand them.

Ultimately, of course, Judge John Jones ruled that intelligent design is grounded in theology rather than science, and thereby would be unconstitutional to teach in public schools. He was subsequently subjected to death threats. After the town’s voters ousted the school committee members who had tried to introduce intelligent design, Pat Robertson issued a warning: "I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city."

In watching the documentary, I was struck by the parallels between the Dover story and movement conservatism generally. The selling of “intelligent design,” and the idea itself, has much in common with Social Security privatization, supply-side economics, the invasion of Iraq, school vouchers, and other half-baked causes that the right has relentlessly been pushing in recent decades.

For example, central to the selling of the intelligent design idea was the creation in 1996 of The Discovery Institute’s Center for Renewal of Science and Culture, initially funded by the Ahmanson family and the MacLellan Foundation (which supports organizations committed to “furthering of the Kingdom of Christ”). The Center housed and otherwise supported an eclectic mix of people, usually affiliated with universities, who in one way or another tried to come up with examples that would reinforce their claims about intelligent design.

It developed an internal game plan called the “Wedge Strategy,” which states as an overarching goal the replacement of science as currently practiced with “theistic and Christian science.” What the center was most effective at was developing a soft-sell marketing pitch intended to minimize the opposition that would arise against a creationism hard-sell. So, for example, it advocated that biology classes “teach the controversy” as a means of incorporating its attacks on Darwinism into lesson plans, rather than insisting that intelligent design replace evolution.

Basically, the Discovery Institute’s Center was in the business of marketing—not research. It had a product to sell – intelligent design -- and was focused on doing whatever it could to sell that idea. Even the name of the idea itself was changed from creationism to make it more palatable. Much like the unobjectionable moniker “Center for Renewal of Science and Culture,” later changed to simply Center for Science and Culture, which is about as perverse as the right’s Center for Equal Opportunity.

Now think about the role played by the Cato Institution and the Heritage Foundation in selling Social Security privatization. Akin to the “Wedge Document,” they developed the 1983 game plan “Achieving a 'Leninist' Strategy.” For years they honed a pitch aimed at reassuring everyone that, far from phasing out Social Security, they actually wanted to bolster it. They even softened the lingo from “privatization” to “private accounts.” When confronted with fundamental flaws with the concept, such as the massive additional federal debt it would create while imposing added risks on Americans, the think tanks came up with lame excuses while steaming full speed ahead with the same ill-conceived idea that would advance their broader agenda. Just as some intelligent design advocates outright lied in saying religion had nothing to do with their motivations, many privatization advocates lied in saying they wanted to strengthen Social Security.

One other parallel: at the end of the Nova program, Judge Jones said that the debate over the teaching of evolution in the schools will continue for generations to come, despite the one-sidedness of the factual evidence against “intelligent design.” So, too, the debate over the other lame-brained agenda items of the well-financed, relentless conservative movement."

From: http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/20...elligent_design

It is just part of an insidious plan for "dumbing down" the science curricula throughout this country and it has to be fought off... COMPLETELY!
No holds barred, this evil strategy must be exposed and countered strongly at every turn. wacko.gif ph34r.gif
Gorgeous
QUOTE
It is just part of an insidious plan for "dumbing down" the science curricula throughout this country and it has to be fought off... COMPLETELY!


'This country'? - You are aware that the internet stretches quite a long way, I hope?

You should maybe not assume that the whole world is 'american', just yet...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It is just part of an insidious plan for "dumbing down" the science curricula throughout this country and it has to be fought off... COMPLETELY!


'This country'? - You are aware that the internet stretches quite a long way, I hope?

You should maybe not assume that the whole world is 'american', just yet...

You were trying to separate synonyms with no basis in fact or apparent reason.


Then, just for you, sweetie, I'll bother to repeat what I said in the last two posts..."Like I already said, my motivation for sorting out the contradiction was so that the confusion does not continue. I have faith in this being the true scientific method."


Pj, you should come over here for a holiday and relax a while! I'll get some beers in, if you like?



g.
rethinker
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Nov 16 2007, 01:37 AM)


Pj, you should come over here for a holiday and relax a while! I'll get some beers in, if you like?



g.

What about Bob ohmy.gif
Derek1148
QUOTE (photojack+Nov 15 2007, 08:59 PM)
This is how religion and politics mix in an inappropriate way, courtesy of the Republican blight advocated by adoucette and Derek1148! dry.gif ohmy.gif

??
Gorgeous
QUOTE (rethinker+Nov 16 2007, 02:28 AM)
What about Bob ohmy.gif

You're all welcome, as long as you're happy! smile.gif Especially you, sweetness!


g.
photojack
To get back to the intention of this thread, I'll quote "chapter and verse" from Gibbon, that famous historian of the Roman empire: ohmy.gif

QUOTE
"In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem...[dug up the remains of the martyr Stephen]...and when the...remains of Stephen [were] shewn to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour, such as that of paradise, was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy three of the assistants. The...relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue.
The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested [in The City of God] the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa, by the relics of St. Stephen...[indeed, he] enumerates...seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese. If we enlarge our view to all the dioceses, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe, that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary, and established, laws of nature." (Gibbon, vol. 2, ch. 28, pp. 92-93)


In my travels, I have personally seen and photographed such reliquaries of gold and precious gems, containing a bone fragment from some alleged saint! unsure.gif I attended a service at a Russian Orthodox church where an icon painting was strutted around that allegedly "weeped" a fluid that had miraculous healing powers! huh.gif The priest would rub cotton balls in the fluid and give them to members of the congregation. I still have mine, but somehow it failed to convince me,... or convert me! tongue.gif The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry would certainly have fun with this!

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem...[dug up the remains of the martyr Stephen]...and when the...remains of Stephen [were] shewn to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour, such as that of paradise, was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy three of the assistants. The...relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue.
The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested [in The City of God] the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa, by the relics of St. Stephen...[indeed, he] enumerates...seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese. If we enlarge our view to all the dioceses, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe, that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary, and established, laws of nature." (Gibbon, vol. 2, ch. 28, pp. 92-93)


In my travels, I have personally seen and photographed such reliquaries of gold and precious gems, containing a bone fragment from some alleged saint! unsure.gif I attended a service at a Russian Orthodox church where an icon painting was strutted around that allegedly "weeped" a fluid that had miraculous healing powers! huh.gif The priest would rub cotton balls in the fluid and give them to members of the congregation. I still have mine, but somehow it failed to convince me,... or convert me! tongue.gif The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry would certainly have fun with this!

"It should be clear that Gibbon is not issuing a philosophical argument, but stating a simple case demonstrated by historical evidence: we observe so much fraud and credulity in those days, it would be irrational to believe anything that smelled of the same character. Moreover, there were so many miracles all over the Roman Empire in those times that they became as common as natural events. What, then, can explain their sudden disappearance in the past few centuries? Observing the first fact, Gibbon, like all sound historians, sees in it an ideal explanation of the second fact: fraud and credulity were far more common, or far more successful, then than they are now. Isn't that a very reasonable conclusion? For more evidence supporting this very point, you can read Hume's many examples, as well as another essay on this subject, "Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire" by Richard Carrier (1997)."


If Richard Carrier had been at that church service, he couldn't have said "sudden disappearance"! Kooks and quacks seem to be alive and well as attested to by Terral, Apostle and God_Hates_Me! [U]The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire[/I], was known principally for the quality and irony of its prose, its use of primary sources, and its open denigration of organized religion. High rates of illiteracy in those times may explain the rampant gullibility of the masses, but now? In the 21st century? ((laugh.gif))
Derek1148
QUOTE (photojack+Nov 16 2007, 02:56 PM)
In my travels, I have personally seen and photographed such reliquaries of gold and precious gems, containing a bone fragment from some alleged saint! unsure.gif I attended a service at a Russian Orthodox church where an icon painting was strutted around that allegedly "weeped" a fluid that had miraculous healing powers! huh.gif The priest would rub cotton balls in the fluid and give them to members of the congregation. I still have mine, but somehow it failed to convince me,... or convert me! tongue.gif The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry would certainly have fun with this!



If Richard Carrier had been at that church service, he couldn't have said "sudden disappearance"! Kooks and quacks seem to be alive and well as attested to by Terral, Apostle and God_Hates_Me! [U]The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire[/I], was known principally for the quality and irony of its prose, its use of primary sources, and its open denigration of organized religion. High rates of illiteracy in those times may explain the rampant gullibility of the masses, but now? In the 21st century? ((laugh.gif))

It is probably all a Republican conspiracy.
photojack
That was pretty funny! ((laugh.gif)) But I would be willing to bet that there are far more Republicans who believe that cr*p than Progressives (Democrats). After all, we know who the "Christian Coalition" supports! ohmy.gif High rates of illiteracy in ancient times may explain the rampant gullibility of the masses, but now? In the 21st century? ((tongue.gif))
gmilam
It's the liberal/atheistic press that's covering up all the evidence for modern day miracles.

Everyone knows that. laugh.gif
RealityCheck
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 16 2007, 04:34 PM)
It's the liberal/atheistic press that's covering up all the evidence for modern day miracles.

Everyone knows that.  laugh.gif



Hahahahaha! You slay me, gmilam! Good one, hehehe.

And photojack: You should add to your properly skeptical 'miracles' post the point that IF all these 'religious relics' were 'genuine', the their would BE no sickness or death at all; since with the advent of modern fast mass travel, the WHOLE WORLD 'and his dog' would be cured by a simple train/bus/boat/plane ride to those 'shrines', hehehe!

More snake oil. Although, just like PLACEBOS, it can't hurt those that have no other option except to 'believe' religion/relics can do something for them BY HARNESSING THE POWER OF THEIR OWN SUBCONCIOUS MIND to CURE THEMSELVES if 'positive/hopeful' thinking outlook results from such 'beliefs'.

Cheers all!

RC.
.
gmilam
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 16 2007, 04:24 PM)


Hahahahaha! You slay me, gmilam! Good one, hehehe.

And photojack: You should add to your properly skeptical 'miracles' post the point that IF all these 'religious relics' were 'genuine', the their would BE no sickness or death at all; since with the advent of modern fast mass travel, the WHOLE WORLD 'and his dog' would be cured by a simple train/bus/boat/plane ride to those 'shrines', hehehe!

More snake oil. Although, just like PLACEBOS, it can't hurt those that have no other option except to 'believe' religion/relics can do something for them BY HARNESSING THE POWER OF THEIR OWN SUBCONCIOUS MIND to CURE THEMSELVES if 'positive/hopeful' thinking outlook results from such 'beliefs'.

Cheers all!

RC.
.

Hey RC!

I've "seen you" around the forum lately, but haven't had the chance to say hello. Glad to see you're still as tenacious as ever.

It is true that positive thought can do wonders. One of my best friends has had her body ravaged by cancer, MS and scoliosis... But she still has a positive outlook and a love of life that is truly contagious. No placebos or relics needed.

The sheer power of the human spirit can be truly inspirational.

Cheers my friend,
Glenn
RealityCheck
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 16 2007, 10:39 PM)
Hey RC!

I've "seen you" around the forum lately, but haven't had the chance to say hello. Glad to see you're still as tenacious as ever.

It is true that positive thought can do wonders. One of my best friends has had her body ravaged by cancer, MS and scoliosis... But she still has a positive outlook and a love of life that is truly contagious. No placebos or relics needed.

The sheer power of the human spirit can be truly inspirational.

Cheers my friend,
Glenn



True! How much more 'divine' can you get than a mere frail and mortal human mind/knowledge/spirit can grow by such leaps and bounds from 'nothing' and now take on the worst that the human condition can throw at it?!

My most positive/empathetic thoughts go to your friend, mate. I also hope and trust that you and yours are as well as can be for as long as possible into the exciting future. See ya round!

RC.
.

photojack
Please see my post in the "Religion, Human Evolution Definition, religion is culture is biology." thread! This is what I propose to bring an end to replying/relying on miracles!

QUOTE
"Maslow also proposed that people who have reached self-actualization will sometimes experience a state he referred to as "transcendence," in which they become aware of not only their own fullest potential, but the fullest potential of human beings at large. He described this transcendence and its characteristics in an essay in the posthumously published The Farther Reaches of Human Nature."
skeptic griggsy
biggrin.gif It neither begs the question nor sandbags theists in asking for evidence to overthrow the presumption of naturalism-that only natural forces operate,not a deity. This is the demand for evidence.Einstein overcame the experience of what Newton showed.
When one checks out miralcles they turn out to be natural or frauds. We are left,perforce, to reject those of religion.Yeshua was just another miraclemonger of his time! wink.gif
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