QUOTE (Derek+)
Are you suggesting that God may not exist?
I love this simplistic kind of thinking....
"You said God didn't perform a miracle earlier when I found a dollar on the ground? Then are you saying that there is no God?"
Of course that is not what I am saying...
I am suggesting that perhaps God is less involved with the events of the world than you would like to believe. The whole scenario with the amputee seems to make a powerful point that either God has very severe limitations on his powers, or that God doesn't actually heal people.
Hmmm, so God doesn't heal people. So?
It just means that you previously placed undue faith into a 'miracle'. It doesn't really change "God", it just changes your perception of him.
I love this simplistic kind of thinking....
"You said God didn't perform a miracle earlier when I found a dollar on the ground? Then are you saying that there is no God?"
Of course that is not what I am saying...
I am suggesting that perhaps God is less involved with the events of the world than you would like to believe. The whole scenario with the amputee seems to make a powerful point that either God has very severe limitations on his powers, or that God doesn't actually heal people.
Hmmm, so God doesn't heal people. So?
It just means that you previously placed undue faith into a 'miracle'. It doesn't really change "God", it just changes your perception of him.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 23 2007, 12:41 PM)
So, if there is no God then that would explain an absence of miracles and why He doesn’t stop the war.
There is one question that remains though. Who decides what is evil? Would it be you or some Jesus freak? How about an atheistic Marxist philosopher?
Who decides now?
There is one question that remains though. Who decides what is evil? Would it be you or some Jesus freak? How about an atheistic Marxist philosopher?
Who decides now?
QUOTE (gmilam+Jul 23 2007, 07:25 PM)
Who decides now?
The strongest.
The strongest.
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 23 2007, 07:09 PM)
I am suggesting that perhaps God is less involved with the events of the world than you would like to believe.
God just doesn’t want to get involved? I run into a lot of people like that.
God just doesn’t want to get involved? I run into a lot of people like that.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 23 2007, 01:41 PM)
The strongest.
LOL - Yup, we are still in the middle ages where "might" makes "right"!
LOL - Yup, we are still in the middle ages where "might" makes "right"!
QUOTE
God just doesn’t want to get involved. I run into a lot of people like that.
Hmmm....I didn't say that....
I didn't say that he doesn't want to get involved...I am saying that perhaps he will not allow himself to get involved.
It takes a rather myopic perspective to believe that God is actively involved.
Your life is doing ok, so God must be taking care of you?
You ignore all of the evil in the world, which God must clearly allow to occur.
The most common reason given for why evil is still allowed to occur in a world God protects is "free will". Which is a great explanation, but if God is willing to stand back and observe genocide because of his desire for free will in humanity, why in the hell would he interfere with something as trivial as healing cancer?
You say that God will stop the current war if it is unjust, but when in the history of humanity has God stopped a war? I am pretty sure there have been some "unjust" wars.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
God just doesn’t want to get involved. I run into a lot of people like that. |
Hmmm....I didn't say that....
I didn't say that he doesn't want to get involved...I am saying that perhaps he will not allow himself to get involved.
It takes a rather myopic perspective to believe that God is actively involved.
Your life is doing ok, so God must be taking care of you?
You ignore all of the evil in the world, which God must clearly allow to occur.
The most common reason given for why evil is still allowed to occur in a world God protects is "free will". Which is a great explanation, but if God is willing to stand back and observe genocide because of his desire for free will in humanity, why in the hell would he interfere with something as trivial as healing cancer?
You say that God will stop the current war if it is unjust, but when in the history of humanity has God stopped a war? I am pretty sure there have been some "unjust" wars.
---Who decides now?
The strongest.
They do?
I was always under the impression that general morality was an overwhelming human characteristic. Even those who commit evil generally recognize the immorality of their actions...
The main delineation from a moral code comes from delusions of importance.
Example:
Three people go into a car dealership, and there is only one salesperson on duty.
Two of the people are purchasing cars, while the third just needs to fill out some paperwork.
The salesperson, who gets paid on commission, attempts to help the two people purchasing cars before helping the third person. He does this despite the fact that the person filling out paperwork came in the door second.
Now, rationally it makes perfect sense.
The two people purchasing cars are about to spend thousands of dollars, and therefore their satisfaction is VERY important.
The salesperson obviously wants to to make more money, so he will obviously take care of the customers making a purchase before tending to the customer who simply needs to fill out paperwork.
The customers obviously have a good rational for their importance.
The salesperson obviously has a good argument for his decision on the order of his attention...
But I will guarantee that the person filling out paperwork will be upset and feel "cheated" because he obviously feels that his needs are superior to the needs of the other people.
We all know the classic argument that theft is tolerable if it is done to "save someone from starvation", but we rarely consider the possibility that it may lead to the starvation of someone else....is the theft still tolerable? No
Would most people still steal in that situation? Yes
Still, the moral argument for theft is classically that the decision should be based on "less evil." Causing death is evidently more evil than theft, and therefore the theft is acceptable. The slippery slope of this argument is that quickly it can be twisted to justify a great deal of theft. A poor man stealing from a wealthy man could potentially be justified by this argument. The rich man may feel very little damage due to the theft, but the poor man may receive a vast amount of good from the theft. As long as the harm done to the rich man is less than the benefit received by the poor man, it could potentially be justified....
I argue that the powerful do not establish ethics, but rather the individual. The powerful(i.e. Governments) simply inherit their power from the individuals, so any violation of the ethics or morality of the populace would be challenged. In other words, the powerful do not make the law, but rather the popular opinion of the people.
It is naïve to believe that evil is always punished and good is always rewarded. Look at history.
Death itself is not a punishment. Hell, we’re all going to die.
Death itself is not a punishment. Hell, we’re all going to die.
QUOTE
It is naïve to believe that evil is always punished and good is always rewarded. Look at history.
Absolutely, in fact it is ridiculous to expect the vast majority of good and evil to even get noticed.
That is probably why the concept of Heaven and Hell is so intriguing to those obsessed with justice, like yourself.
My concern is that we stop the evil. But it has been my experience the victims suffer more than the perpetrators.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 23 2007, 02:17 PM)
My concern is that we stop the evil. But it has been my experience the victims suffer more than the perpetrators.
Frequently evil is even rewarded.
"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king."
I forget which Bob Dylan tune that's from... But I've never forgotten the line.
Frequently evil is even rewarded.
"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king."
I forget which Bob Dylan tune that's from... But I've never forgotten the line.
“Kill one man and you are a murderer. Kill millions and you are a conqueror. Kill all and you are a God.” (Jean Rostand)
So DrreckSR, you quoted my statement of logic, Post #238882 AS
QUOTE (PuckSr's Quote of Mr+ Robin Parsons,Jul 18 2007, 07:38 PM)
Biblical History says he healed the lame, so indication of? whether or not those were amputees?
No evidence that he did, no evidence that he did not.
No Solution available just speculations.
So to answer your question honestly and directly and rationally.... "then why doesn't he heal amputees?" (the ? is my addition) there is no evidence to indicate that he did not, nor that he did, there is only testimony from humans of what they could record, back in a day when the recording of events was somewhat difficult, to say the least, as most people, back then, could neither read nor wrote, never-mind that they hadn't even invented, nor dreamt of, the typewriter .....yet.
No evidence that he did, no evidence that he did not.
No Solution available just speculations.
So to answer your question honestly and directly and rationally.... "then why doesn't he heal amputees?" (the ? is my addition) there is no evidence to indicate that he did not, nor that he did, there is only testimony from humans of what they could record, back in a day when the recording of events was somewhat difficult, to say the least, as most people, back then, could neither read nor wrote, never-mind that they hadn't even invented, nor dreamt of, the typewriter .....yet.
and then, adulterated the Logic and Reason in it and to it:
The premise of this argument form the first post is the question I posed. Factor in the common notion that internal damage or disease is often thought of as healable by miracle but outside disfigurement is not. This leads back to the question of why not. Why would an all power god or any god seen and claimed to have performed miracles of internal healing not in all the recorded history of mankind healed one amputee?
The “potential within” is best served in another thread.
The premise of this argument form the first post is the question I posed. Factor in the common notion that internal damage or disease is often thought of as healable by miracle but outside disfigurement is not. This leads back to the question of why not. Why would an all power god or any god seen and claimed to have performed miracles of internal healing not in all the recorded history of mankind healed one amputee?
The “potential within” is best served in another thread.
Disease is one thing and amputation is another. A disease can be seen
as dis-ease, not at harmony. Should that be true, and that discord can be healed and made harmonious again, then that is an insight into how some diseases have been "miraculously" cured. Whereas amputation would require more than fixing an inner discord.
We are not talking about discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense. We are talking about legitimate diseases. Why is it believed that god can and does heal these yet cannot, will not or does not heal amputation? And again, it does nto have to be a limb. A single digit of a toe or finger will do.
The premise of this argument form the first post is the question I posed. Factor in the common notion that internal damage or disease is often thought of as healable by miracle but outside disfigurement is not. This leads back to the question of why not. Why would an all power god or any god seen and claimed to have performed miracles of internal healing not in all the recorded history of mankind healed one amputee?
The “potential within” is best served in another thread.
We are not talking about discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense. We are talking about legitimate diseases. Why is it believed that god can and does heal these yet cannot, will not or does not heal amputation? And again, it does nto have to be a limb. A single digit of a toe or finger will do.
Just listen to you, lol! I'm not in your classroom mate. You seem to highlight the discrepencies you feel about this supposed outside god that comes to everyone's rescue, and then you try to hold that god up to the very discrepency you see. That's one of those full circle arguemnts too. If it doersn't make sens ein the frist place then why ar eyou holding it up to that? Because of people's past perceptions?
As it is, it isn't just new age crap about frequencies and the potential for inner healing.
434 MHz Ultra High Frequency Radiowaves
I discovered in 1973 that this frequency (used throughout the continent of Europe as the standard frequency for medical purposes) will temporarily activate cancer's burning of glucose without oxygen for between 20 and 30 minutes. Millions of patients throughout Europe have been treated since 1948 with this frequency for stimulating the repair of injuries, fractures, wound healing etc without any side effects being discovered. It stimulates normal cell division which is self limiting when repair is complete.
Complications of Treatment
434 MHz UHF creates resonance (it shakes cancer cells like a bell) and fluorescence (the cancer re-radiates different frequencies) and the energy does create some heat in the normal cells similar to sitting in front of a large electric fire. It must be emphasised that this is not heat treatment and MUST NOT be called hyperthermia where the body is deliberately raised to 41.8°C by non electrical methods. After treatment half an hour's rest on a relaxing chair/bed under a fan allows the patient to drive their car away if they wish.
http://www.drholtsupport.com/simple.asp
Linking Low-Frequency Fields and Cancer
Dr. Wendell Winters of the University of Texas had been contacted by the New York Department of Health to investigate the effects of 60-Hz fields on cells of the immune system. In the course of this work he had exposed human cancer cells in culture to the same fields, without specifically obtaining approval to do so. He reported that cancer cells increased their rate of growth by several hundred percent with only a twenty-four hour exposure and that this growth rate was thereafter apparently permanent. The New York State Department of Health sent a team of investigators to Winter’s laboratory. They reported that the work was not reproducible and was of questionable validity. The department also funded another investigator to “repeat” Winters’s study. This investigator reported that he was unable to duplicate Winters’s results; however, he had not done the experiment in the same fashion.
Work was then carried on outside the confines of the New York State study by Winters and his colleague Dr. Jerry Phillips of the Cancer Research and Treatment Center in San Antonio, Texas. Winters’s initial observation was confirmed and extended, leading to several recent publications in reputable, peer-reviewed scientific journals. At this time, the scientific evidence is absolutely conclusive: 60-Hz magnetic fields cause human cancer cells to permanently increase their rate of growth by as much as 1600 percent and to develop more malignant characteristics.
http://www.emfpollution.com/articles/cross...adiation-fields
It is thought that higher intensity of sonochemical luminescence means generation of larger amount of acoustic cavitation and active oxygen species. Frequency characteristics of the intensity of sonochemical luminescence were measured as shown in Fig. 3 in our ultrasound exposure system. The highest intensity of sonochemical luminescence was observed at 150 kHz. It was confirmed that the largest amount of active oxygen species was generated at 150 kHz. Therefore, cancer cells should be exposed to ultrasound at 150 kHz in our system.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...86f8964cf1f7d54
U.S. Pat. No. 6,248,985 to Tomasello, teaches the use of relatively low frequency (11 MHz) RF waves and very high field strength (50 Kilovolts per meter) to heat and disinfect large amounts of medical waste as it is pushed through a large diameter tube (12 inches) by a screw-type extruder. The low frequency RF radiation heats the medical waste to between 90 and 100.degree. C. The teachings of Tomasello are appropriate for large scale disinfection of medical waste where deep penetration by RF radiation is essential. Lower frequency, time-varying electric fields, penetrate deeply and heat objects more evenly. Higher frequency, time-varying microwaves (between 1 and 5 GHz) do not penetrate as deeply but heat more rapidly the cells of microorganisms they radiate, and therefore are more suitable for small scale sewage treatment if the design of the radiation chamber employs a large ratio of pipe length to pipe diameter, as taught by the present invèntion. Also micro-wave generators, magnetrons, which emit energy in the 1-5 GHZ range are readily available "off the shelf" and are very inexpensive, particularly with respect to radio frequency generators.
http://www.uspatentserver.com/686/6863805.html
You Can Heal Anything
By Robert Anthony Carr, Editor, Natural Awakenings Las Vegas
November 2004
About 20 years ago, an organization called the World Research Foundation held a
symposium to highlight the most advanced discoveries and developments in the field
of health. What amazed me at the tine was that most of the truly impressive
breakthroughs came from physicists. Not biologists, medical doctors or chemists.
This was the thought I had in mind when I was gifted the book Sanctuary: The Path
to Consciousness, written by Stephen Lewis and Evan Slawson. It.s a novel about
the development and application of the AIM Program, which in turn is a technology of
self-healing that works with Life Force and Consciousness.
Without a doubt, the book has given me a strong foundation for understanding what
Stephen has developed over the last 30 years of research and practice in the fields of
quantum mechanics and healing. After a short initial personal consultation with him
(via phone), and two weeks on the program, I can say I notice the results.
Robert Anthony Carr: What makes the All-Inclusive Method (AIM) Program's
approach to healing different from other approaches?
Stephen Lewis: I do not find diseases. My method of finding energetic imbalances
is not accepted by this government as a method of finding disease, and so I don’t
claim to find diseases. I find frequencies that we associate with disease. And I
believe that we are the authority on this. However, we do not transcend this, and
thereby we stay within the confines of law.
So the AIM program doesn’t treat anything. It doesn’t heal. All healing is done by
you.
RC: How does the AIM Program help me heal myself?
SL: If I said to you: "You have some imbalances that are dire and require some
immediate attention. I think you need to take 15-20 hours/day and focus on them."
You’d probably say: "I haven’t got 15-20 hours/day, because I have a job and this
and that. The AIM program helps you to focus and stay focused 24/7. This concept
is not new. What is new is being able to use frequencies in units of consciousness.
RC: So Consciousness is directly related to Healing?
SL: I believe it is absolutely impossible to separate healing and consciousness and
spirituality. I think they are a trinity, and always have been. Notice I did not say
treatment or diagnosis, but I did say healing.
Healing is taking the manifestation of a low level of consciousness and replacing it
with a higher order of consciousness. And within that definition you get the definition
of what healers do. Actually, it’s kind of a misnomer. At this primitive level --
whether you call it ’depression’ or call it ’poverty’ or ’cancer’ or ’diabetes’ -- nobody
heals you but you. True healers raise your consciousness and enable you to heal
yourself.
RC: How does this work exactly?
SL: My field <of expertise> is subtle energy physics, which tells us that everything in
the world has a footprint that resonates at a specific frequency. This resonance can
be measured in many ways. I measure it on a scale from 0 to 100 in units of
consciousness. This is written about in the novel, Sanctuary.
Consciousness is what we <individuals> use to shape energy into the particulate that
we call the material world. In other words, consciousness creates matter out of
energy. That’s why it can be measured, and why matter can be changed.
Of course, I’m not talking about changing your Buick into a Rolls Royce. I’m saying
that if there’s something about your life that you deem to be negative, you must
understand it and take responsibility for it. A) You created it.
It’s there for a
reason. And therefore, C) you can change it, or you can remove it. This is called
healing.
This is the whole key. You can heal yourself using what we call a ’spiritual
technology of healing.’ There has always been a technology of healing, but it’s been
a little bit more primitive. Prayerwheels were used in countless places in the world.
Other people may pray. Or chant on some kind of output device. People use all sorts
of ways to help themselves heal. I feel that what we have is probably the most
efficacious implementation of technology that helps people heal themselves.
RC: So how would you define a disease frequency?
SL: A disease frequency is simply a frequency that is disharmonic with the human
state. If the disease frequency cannot get a toe hold, if you have no weakness that
the frequency can latch on to, you can repel it and go on with your life.
The reality is that almost any disease you can think of, if you look carefully enough,
you’ll find you have antibodies to it. This means that you had the disease and
repelled it. So why are some people unable to do that? Why do they succumb? The
answer is that they have a profound enough weakness at this resonant frequency, if
you will. The frequency provides a safe haven for the disease.
RC: You mention in Sanctuary that these disease frequencies seem to exhibit an
intelligence. Do they actively look for our weaknesses?
SL: Everything is conscious. I find the frequency of cancer or anything to be highly
conscious.
There is a fundamental rule in life and that is: Survival. For you. For me. For cancer.
And how this works is very simple. If you acquire an imbalance, that imbalance will
look for a place within you where it can survive. That is to say, where you cannot
readily and easily overcome it.
dwp.bigplanet.com/bioscanforlife/nss-folder/emcfolders/interview_anthonycarr_11_04.pdf
We already did....healing of amputees is the SPECIFIC miracle we are discussing...
@Mr. Parsons
My teacup analogy is a classic counter-argument to your original statement that a "lack of evidence in support or in conflict" somehow dismisses the entire debate as inconclusive. The weight of evidence is predominantly on supporting your statement.....you basically argued that Jesus performed miracles, and that since some of them were not described in detail we could not make a conclusive statement that he had not performed the miracle.
This is exactly the same as saying that since we have no evidence against something nor do we have any evidence for something, that we cannot make any assumption about the truth of the fact.
Biblical history says that Jesus did MANY things, but never references healing an amputee. The "lame" typically is a reference to crippled individuals. I do not believe that I have ever heard the term applied to someone who is an amputee.
When someone says they have a "lame" leg, they are typically referring to an injured limb, not a missing limb. This is all irrelevant though, since the "biblical history" does not say lame....I imagine it used a greek term with far more accuracy of description.
QUOTE (PuckSR's Quotation of themselves+Jul 18 2007, 07:38 PM)
astronomy says objects are in orbit, so indication of? whether or not those were teacups?
No evidence that there are, no evidence that there are not
No Solution available just speculations.
So to answer your question honestly and directly and rationally.... "then why aren't there teacups in space?" (the ? is my addition) there is no evidence to indicate that there are not, nor that there are, there is only testimony from humans of what they could record, back in a day when the recording of events was somewhat difficult, to say the least, as most people, back then, could neither read nor wrote, never-mind that they hadn't even invented, nor dreamt of, the typewriter .....yet.
No evidence that there are, no evidence that there are not
No Solution available just speculations.
So to answer your question honestly and directly and rationally.... "then why aren't there teacups in space?" (the ? is my addition) there is no evidence to indicate that there are not, nor that there are, there is only testimony from humans of what they could record, back in a day when the recording of events was somewhat difficult, to say the least, as most people, back then, could neither read nor wrote, never-mind that they hadn't even invented, nor dreamt of, the typewriter .....yet.
thence claiming to have followed my logic, but in simple truth of it proved only to have fooled yourself completely...so What else is new, Not only Does your irrational substitution NOT follow the logic, it demonstrates an inane grasp of the use of Logic & Reason.
In my First Statement: "Biblical History says he healed the lame" We reference a source of History to establish what frame we are talking about, then ASK A QUESTION..."so indication of?" and follow through on the QUESTION, "whether or not" a Choice to be made and "those were amputees?" an Potential Identity of one of the Choices.
Conclude that from Historical evidence that: "No evidence that he did, no evidence that he did not."
Conclude that the general Argument has, "No Solution available" As Per the no Historical evidence to back it up, Ergo: "just speculations"
you change that to..." astronomy says objects are in orbit, so indication of? whether or not those were teacups?"Which has NO historical Affiliation to it as a Potential of Occurrence, Not even Human Subjective testament, whereas what (I) premised mine upon Does.
Mine has an affiliation of the words 'Amputee' and 'lame', used in the logic of associative relationships, seeking the Potential for a Connection, yours only has the Lame part.
"Object" is an Ideal - word - that covers Many Realities, too many to be conclusively employed as to deduce a Logically and Well Reasoned conslusion.
When it comes to wielding the skills of Logic and reason you demonstrate the same adeptness as a Worm, fishing, you are little more than Bait.
That is because the very last sound the you hear will be "HUIT"...(said in a short sharp voice as to mimic the sound of a short sharp inhalation) but that begs the Proverbial Philosophical Question - of Logic and thinking skills, If the Last Sound that PuckSr hears is "HUIT" does PuceSR make any Noise?
In my First Statement: "Biblical History says he healed the lame" We reference a source of History to establish what frame we are talking about, then ASK A QUESTION..."so indication of?" and follow through on the QUESTION, "whether or not" a Choice to be made and "those were amputees?" an Potential Identity of one of the Choices.
Conclude that from Historical evidence that: "No evidence that he did, no evidence that he did not."
Conclude that the general Argument has, "No Solution available" As Per the no Historical evidence to back it up, Ergo: "just speculations"
you change that to..." astronomy says objects are in orbit, so indication of? whether or not those were teacups?"Which has NO historical Affiliation to it as a Potential of Occurrence, Not even Human Subjective testament, whereas what (I) premised mine upon Does.
Mine has an affiliation of the words 'Amputee' and 'lame', used in the logic of associative relationships, seeking the Potential for a Connection, yours only has the Lame part.
"Object" is an Ideal - word - that covers Many Realities, too many to be conclusively employed as to deduce a Logically and Well Reasoned conslusion.
When it comes to wielding the skills of Logic and reason you demonstrate the same adeptness as a Worm, fishing, you are little more than Bait.
That is because the very last sound the you hear will be "HUIT"...(said in a short sharp voice as to mimic the sound of a short sharp inhalation) but that begs the Proverbial Philosophical Question - of Logic and thinking skills, If the Last Sound that PuckSr hears is "HUIT" does PuceSR make any Noise?
Robin,
You have still yet to directly answer the question. Why would an all powerful god heal other maladies but not heal amputees?
You have still yet to directly answer the question. Why would an all powerful god heal other maladies but not heal amputees?
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 24 2007, 05:19 PM)
Robin,
You have still yet to directly answer the question. Why would an all powerful god heal other maladies but not heal amputees?
That is assuming an all powerful God comers off its perch and heals other malodies. The power that Jesus professed to have worked when people believed they were being healed. It was their own contact with the potential within. Disease is one thing and amputation is another. A disease can be seen
as dis-ease, not at harmony. Should that be true, and that discord can be healed and made harmonious again, then that is an insight into how some diseases have been "miraculously" cured. Whereas amputation would require more than fixing an inner discord.
You have still yet to directly answer the question. Why would an all powerful god heal other maladies but not heal amputees?
That is assuming an all powerful God comers off its perch and heals other malodies. The power that Jesus professed to have worked when people believed they were being healed. It was their own contact with the potential within. Disease is one thing and amputation is another. A disease can be seen
as dis-ease, not at harmony. Should that be true, and that discord can be healed and made harmonious again, then that is an insight into how some diseases have been "miraculously" cured. Whereas amputation would require more than fixing an inner discord.
QUOTE
That is assuming an all powerful God comers off its perch and heals other malodies. The power that Jesus professed to have worked when people believed they were being healed. It was their own contact with the potential within.
The premise of this argument form the first post is the question I posed. Factor in the common notion that internal damage or disease is often thought of as healable by miracle but outside disfigurement is not. This leads back to the question of why not. Why would an all power god or any god seen and claimed to have performed miracles of internal healing not in all the recorded history of mankind healed one amputee?
The “potential within” is best served in another thread.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| That is assuming an all powerful God comers off its perch and heals other malodies. The power that Jesus professed to have worked when people believed they were being healed. It was their own contact with the potential within. |
The premise of this argument form the first post is the question I posed. Factor in the common notion that internal damage or disease is often thought of as healable by miracle but outside disfigurement is not. This leads back to the question of why not. Why would an all power god or any god seen and claimed to have performed miracles of internal healing not in all the recorded history of mankind healed one amputee?
The “potential within” is best served in another thread.
Disease is one thing and amputation is another. A disease can be seen
as dis-ease, not at harmony. Should that be true, and that discord can be healed and made harmonious again, then that is an insight into how some diseases have been "miraculously" cured. Whereas amputation would require more than fixing an inner discord.
We are not talking about discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense. We are talking about legitimate diseases. Why is it believed that god can and does heal these yet cannot, will not or does not heal amputation? And again, it does nto have to be a limb. A single digit of a toe or finger will do.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 24 2007, 06:18 PM)
The premise of this argument form the first post is the question I posed. Factor in the common notion that internal damage or disease is often thought of as healable by miracle but outside disfigurement is not. This leads back to the question of why not. Why would an all power god or any god seen and claimed to have performed miracles of internal healing not in all the recorded history of mankind healed one amputee?
The “potential within” is best served in another thread.
We are not talking about discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense. We are talking about legitimate diseases. Why is it believed that god can and does heal these yet cannot, will not or does not heal amputation? And again, it does nto have to be a limb. A single digit of a toe or finger will do.
Just listen to you, lol! I'm not in your classroom mate. You seem to highlight the discrepencies you feel about this supposed outside god that comes to everyone's rescue, and then you try to hold that god up to the very discrepency you see. That's one of those full circle arguemnts too. If it doersn't make sens ein the frist place then why ar eyou holding it up to that? Because of people's past perceptions?
As it is, it isn't just new age crap about frequencies and the potential for inner healing.
434 MHz Ultra High Frequency Radiowaves
I discovered in 1973 that this frequency (used throughout the continent of Europe as the standard frequency for medical purposes) will temporarily activate cancer's burning of glucose without oxygen for between 20 and 30 minutes. Millions of patients throughout Europe have been treated since 1948 with this frequency for stimulating the repair of injuries, fractures, wound healing etc without any side effects being discovered. It stimulates normal cell division which is self limiting when repair is complete.
Complications of Treatment
434 MHz UHF creates resonance (it shakes cancer cells like a bell) and fluorescence (the cancer re-radiates different frequencies) and the energy does create some heat in the normal cells similar to sitting in front of a large electric fire. It must be emphasised that this is not heat treatment and MUST NOT be called hyperthermia where the body is deliberately raised to 41.8°C by non electrical methods. After treatment half an hour's rest on a relaxing chair/bed under a fan allows the patient to drive their car away if they wish.
http://www.drholtsupport.com/simple.asp
Linking Low-Frequency Fields and Cancer
Dr. Wendell Winters of the University of Texas had been contacted by the New York Department of Health to investigate the effects of 60-Hz fields on cells of the immune system. In the course of this work he had exposed human cancer cells in culture to the same fields, without specifically obtaining approval to do so. He reported that cancer cells increased their rate of growth by several hundred percent with only a twenty-four hour exposure and that this growth rate was thereafter apparently permanent. The New York State Department of Health sent a team of investigators to Winter’s laboratory. They reported that the work was not reproducible and was of questionable validity. The department also funded another investigator to “repeat” Winters’s study. This investigator reported that he was unable to duplicate Winters’s results; however, he had not done the experiment in the same fashion.
Work was then carried on outside the confines of the New York State study by Winters and his colleague Dr. Jerry Phillips of the Cancer Research and Treatment Center in San Antonio, Texas. Winters’s initial observation was confirmed and extended, leading to several recent publications in reputable, peer-reviewed scientific journals. At this time, the scientific evidence is absolutely conclusive: 60-Hz magnetic fields cause human cancer cells to permanently increase their rate of growth by as much as 1600 percent and to develop more malignant characteristics.
http://www.emfpollution.com/articles/cross...adiation-fields
It is thought that higher intensity of sonochemical luminescence means generation of larger amount of acoustic cavitation and active oxygen species. Frequency characteristics of the intensity of sonochemical luminescence were measured as shown in Fig. 3 in our ultrasound exposure system. The highest intensity of sonochemical luminescence was observed at 150 kHz. It was confirmed that the largest amount of active oxygen species was generated at 150 kHz. Therefore, cancer cells should be exposed to ultrasound at 150 kHz in our system.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...86f8964cf1f7d54
U.S. Pat. No. 6,248,985 to Tomasello, teaches the use of relatively low frequency (11 MHz) RF waves and very high field strength (50 Kilovolts per meter) to heat and disinfect large amounts of medical waste as it is pushed through a large diameter tube (12 inches) by a screw-type extruder. The low frequency RF radiation heats the medical waste to between 90 and 100.degree. C. The teachings of Tomasello are appropriate for large scale disinfection of medical waste where deep penetration by RF radiation is essential. Lower frequency, time-varying electric fields, penetrate deeply and heat objects more evenly. Higher frequency, time-varying microwaves (between 1 and 5 GHz) do not penetrate as deeply but heat more rapidly the cells of microorganisms they radiate, and therefore are more suitable for small scale sewage treatment if the design of the radiation chamber employs a large ratio of pipe length to pipe diameter, as taught by the present invèntion. Also micro-wave generators, magnetrons, which emit energy in the 1-5 GHZ range are readily available "off the shelf" and are very inexpensive, particularly with respect to radio frequency generators.
http://www.uspatentserver.com/686/6863805.html
You Can Heal Anything
By Robert Anthony Carr, Editor, Natural Awakenings Las Vegas
November 2004
About 20 years ago, an organization called the World Research Foundation held a
symposium to highlight the most advanced discoveries and developments in the field
of health. What amazed me at the tine was that most of the truly impressive
breakthroughs came from physicists. Not biologists, medical doctors or chemists.
This was the thought I had in mind when I was gifted the book Sanctuary: The Path
to Consciousness, written by Stephen Lewis and Evan Slawson. It.s a novel about
the development and application of the AIM Program, which in turn is a technology of
self-healing that works with Life Force and Consciousness.
Without a doubt, the book has given me a strong foundation for understanding what
Stephen has developed over the last 30 years of research and practice in the fields of
quantum mechanics and healing. After a short initial personal consultation with him
(via phone), and two weeks on the program, I can say I notice the results.
Robert Anthony Carr: What makes the All-Inclusive Method (AIM) Program's
approach to healing different from other approaches?
Stephen Lewis: I do not find diseases. My method of finding energetic imbalances
is not accepted by this government as a method of finding disease, and so I don’t
claim to find diseases. I find frequencies that we associate with disease. And I
believe that we are the authority on this. However, we do not transcend this, and
thereby we stay within the confines of law.
So the AIM program doesn’t treat anything. It doesn’t heal. All healing is done by
you.
RC: How does the AIM Program help me heal myself?
SL: If I said to you: "You have some imbalances that are dire and require some
immediate attention. I think you need to take 15-20 hours/day and focus on them."
You’d probably say: "I haven’t got 15-20 hours/day, because I have a job and this
and that. The AIM program helps you to focus and stay focused 24/7. This concept
is not new. What is new is being able to use frequencies in units of consciousness.
RC: So Consciousness is directly related to Healing?
SL: I believe it is absolutely impossible to separate healing and consciousness and
spirituality. I think they are a trinity, and always have been. Notice I did not say
treatment or diagnosis, but I did say healing.
Healing is taking the manifestation of a low level of consciousness and replacing it
with a higher order of consciousness. And within that definition you get the definition
of what healers do. Actually, it’s kind of a misnomer. At this primitive level --
whether you call it ’depression’ or call it ’poverty’ or ’cancer’ or ’diabetes’ -- nobody
heals you but you. True healers raise your consciousness and enable you to heal
yourself.
RC: How does this work exactly?
SL: My field <of expertise> is subtle energy physics, which tells us that everything in
the world has a footprint that resonates at a specific frequency. This resonance can
be measured in many ways. I measure it on a scale from 0 to 100 in units of
consciousness. This is written about in the novel, Sanctuary.
Consciousness is what we <individuals> use to shape energy into the particulate that
we call the material world. In other words, consciousness creates matter out of
energy. That’s why it can be measured, and why matter can be changed.
Of course, I’m not talking about changing your Buick into a Rolls Royce. I’m saying
that if there’s something about your life that you deem to be negative, you must
understand it and take responsibility for it. A) You created it.
It’s there for areason. And therefore, C) you can change it, or you can remove it. This is called
healing.
This is the whole key. You can heal yourself using what we call a ’spiritual
technology of healing.’ There has always been a technology of healing, but it’s been
a little bit more primitive. Prayerwheels were used in countless places in the world.
Other people may pray. Or chant on some kind of output device. People use all sorts
of ways to help themselves heal. I feel that what we have is probably the most
efficacious implementation of technology that helps people heal themselves.
RC: So how would you define a disease frequency?
SL: A disease frequency is simply a frequency that is disharmonic with the human
state. If the disease frequency cannot get a toe hold, if you have no weakness that
the frequency can latch on to, you can repel it and go on with your life.
The reality is that almost any disease you can think of, if you look carefully enough,
you’ll find you have antibodies to it. This means that you had the disease and
repelled it. So why are some people unable to do that? Why do they succumb? The
answer is that they have a profound enough weakness at this resonant frequency, if
you will. The frequency provides a safe haven for the disease.
RC: You mention in Sanctuary that these disease frequencies seem to exhibit an
intelligence. Do they actively look for our weaknesses?
SL: Everything is conscious. I find the frequency of cancer or anything to be highly
conscious.
There is a fundamental rule in life and that is: Survival. For you. For me. For cancer.
And how this works is very simple. If you acquire an imbalance, that imbalance will
look for a place within you where it can survive. That is to say, where you cannot
readily and easily overcome it.
dwp.bigplanet.com/bioscanforlife/nss-folder/emcfolders/interview_anthonycarr_11_04.pdf
Rather than discuss miracles in general. It would be helpful if someone would present a single miracle for review.
QUOTE
Rather than discuss miracles in general. It would be helpful if someone would present a single miracle for review.
We already did....healing of amputees is the SPECIFIC miracle we are discussing...
@Mr. Parsons
My teacup analogy is a classic counter-argument to your original statement that a "lack of evidence in support or in conflict" somehow dismisses the entire debate as inconclusive. The weight of evidence is predominantly on supporting your statement.....you basically argued that Jesus performed miracles, and that since some of them were not described in detail we could not make a conclusive statement that he had not performed the miracle.
This is exactly the same as saying that since we have no evidence against something nor do we have any evidence for something, that we cannot make any assumption about the truth of the fact.
Biblical history says that Jesus did MANY things, but never references healing an amputee. The "lame" typically is a reference to crippled individuals. I do not believe that I have ever heard the term applied to someone who is an amputee.
When someone says they have a "lame" leg, they are typically referring to an injured limb, not a missing limb. This is all irrelevant though, since the "biblical history" does not say lame....I imagine it used a greek term with far more accuracy of description.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 24 2007, 07:42 PM)
Rather than discuss miracles in general. It would be helpful if someone would present a single miracle for review.
No such thing as a miracle in reality. Think of any progress to what one mistakenly thinks is a miracle as small minute spiritual evolutions based on the skill in awakening and controlling the latent forces within the human brain. Having been a self-taught musician I can ask where the undertsanding and skill of playing came from, and some might say that is a miracle that no one showed me how to do such a thing. But it isn't anything to do with that, it's to do with the almost arrogant belief that one will achieve a goal and become that which they imagined themselves to be. That potential extends much further than just producing music.
Ask if there have been spiritual masters who are said to have the ability to induce healing, then I find that interesting and inspiring, regardless of labels such as "new age idiot"..:-) If anything, the question of whether healing of that nature can exist has been posed.
By the same token , would you like to email me a picture of the "missing link" that would prove macro-evolution once and for all? If a person strives long and hard enough they will surely find it.
No such thing as a miracle in reality. Think of any progress to what one mistakenly thinks is a miracle as small minute spiritual evolutions based on the skill in awakening and controlling the latent forces within the human brain. Having been a self-taught musician I can ask where the undertsanding and skill of playing came from, and some might say that is a miracle that no one showed me how to do such a thing. But it isn't anything to do with that, it's to do with the almost arrogant belief that one will achieve a goal and become that which they imagined themselves to be. That potential extends much further than just producing music.
Ask if there have been spiritual masters who are said to have the ability to induce healing, then I find that interesting and inspiring, regardless of labels such as "new age idiot"..:-) If anything, the question of whether healing of that nature can exist has been posed.
By the same token , would you like to email me a picture of the "missing link" that would prove macro-evolution once and for all? If a person strives long and hard enough they will surely find it.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 24 2007, 01:19 PM)
Robin, You have still yet to directly answer the question. Why would an all powerful god heal other maladies but not heal amputees?
Because (I) am not required to, as per redundancy...
QUOTE (PuckSR+ Jun 26 2007, 12:58 PM)
(SNIP) If the counter-argument is that God does not wish to make his interactions known (the classical "test of faith" clause), (SNoP)
Actually (I) am not required to answer any of your questions.
Oh Yes, could you please back up your claim that (I) have yet to answer "directly and honestly" well, ANY question!
Oh Yes, could you please back up your claim that (I) have yet to answer "directly and honestly" well, ANY question!
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+ jul 24 2007 11:46 AM)
(SNIP) used in the logic of associative relationships, seeking the Potential for a Connection, yours only has the Lame part. (SNoP)
There exists a connection between the words "lame" and "Amputee" as in olden days there were not as verbally specifically distinguished as they are today.
There is no relationship between Astronomical Objects (Known or seen Natural {Prior to Sputnik} extraterrestrial Objects) and teacups (Known and seen as Man Made Terrestrial Objects) such that even a fourth grader (such as photolack) could have seen the obvious Absence of 'Potential Connection' Ergo: your argument is Completely Specious and does Nothing to invalidate mine...regardless of your assertion here in post #238882 which clearly is a projection of your 'self reflection' or, you seeing the truth about yourself (The Magenta) and trying to project that upon me.....
1) Can you prove your 'mythical' etymology? Do you have any proof whatsoever that the terms "lame" and "amputee" were once interchangeable? Also, can you prove that the bible refers to them in such a vague way before translation?
2) If my hyperbole offends you, you are an idiot. Let me provide a less comical, but equally poignant example.
1) Can you prove your 'mythical' etymology? Do you have any proof whatsoever that the terms "lame" and "amputee" were once interchangeable? Also, can you prove that the bible refers to them in such a vague way before translation?
2) If my hyperbole offends you, you are an idiot. Let me provide a less comical, but equally poignant example.
History says things are buried in sand, so indication of? whether or not those were 1968 Dodge Darts?
No evidence that they are, no evidence that they are not.
No Solution available just speculations.
In this case man-made objects of value have been found buried in the sand. A 1968 Dodge Dart is a valuable man-made object, however it is a specific valuable man-made object that no one has ever claimed to have buried or to have found buried in the sand.(Just as no one has ever explicitly claimed amputee healing).
So, the safe assumption is that there are no 1968 Dodge Darts buried in the sand, until someone produces evidence for this, or claims to have done it.
Like I said, it isn't as comedic as the teacup analogy, but it still proves your point. You made several speculative jumps:
1. Lame has traditionally been used to refer to amputees
2. Greek and Hebrew have the same ambiguities as english
Then, you used these massive speculations to argue that since no evidence existed contrary to your speculative assumptions then no argument could really be made....which is blatantly false.
Even if lame has been found to be used as a general reference for amputess....and even if the same ambiguity existed in the languages of the people at that time....that still doesn't even begin to validate your claim that those lame men healed might have been amputees.
I imagine that if I witnessed Jesus regrow a limb....that I would SPECIFICALLY write "Then when Jesus touched his nub....his arm grew back instantly".
I imagine that I would not write it off as another incident of "Jesus healing the lame".
They specifically mention when he raises the dead....
They specifically mention when he gives sight to the blind...
But the forget to clarify that he grew someone's limb back???
Yet another wild speculation on your part, simply trying to give yourself enough plausible deniability to continue your ridiculous belief in an active and "miracle granting" God.
None whatsoever....
I keep looking, but I cannot find any at all....
There is no relationship between Astronomical Objects (Known or seen Natural {Prior to Sputnik} extraterrestrial Objects) and teacups (Known and seen as Man Made Terrestrial Objects) such that even a fourth grader (such as photolack) could have seen the obvious Absence of 'Potential Connection' Ergo: your argument is Completely Specious and does Nothing to invalidate mine...regardless of your assertion here in post #238882 which clearly is a projection of your 'self reflection' or, you seeing the truth about yourself (The Magenta) and trying to project that upon me.....
QUOTE (Pucksr+ Jul 18 2007, 07:38 PM)
YES....I DID USE YOUR LOGIC.... Learn how to construct and evaluate logical arguments before you make an *** out of yourself again.
QUOTE
There exists a connection between the words "lame" and "Amputee" as in olden days there were not as verbally specifically distinguished as they are today.
There is no relationship between Astronomical Objects (Known or seen Natural {Prior to Sputnik} extraterrestrial Objects) and teacups (Known and seen as Man Made Terrestrial Objects) such that even a fourth grader (such as photolack) could have seen the obvious Absence of 'Potential Connection' Ergo: your argument is Completely Specious and does Nothing to invalidate mine...regardless of your assertion here in post #238882 which clearly is a projection of your 'self reflection' or, you seeing the truth about yourself (The Magenta) and trying to project that upon me.....
There is no relationship between Astronomical Objects (Known or seen Natural {Prior to Sputnik} extraterrestrial Objects) and teacups (Known and seen as Man Made Terrestrial Objects) such that even a fourth grader (such as photolack) could have seen the obvious Absence of 'Potential Connection' Ergo: your argument is Completely Specious and does Nothing to invalidate mine...regardless of your assertion here in post #238882 which clearly is a projection of your 'self reflection' or, you seeing the truth about yourself (The Magenta) and trying to project that upon me.....
1) Can you prove your 'mythical' etymology? Do you have any proof whatsoever that the terms "lame" and "amputee" were once interchangeable? Also, can you prove that the bible refers to them in such a vague way before translation?
2) If my hyperbole offends you, you are an idiot. Let me provide a less comical, but equally poignant example.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| There exists a connection between the words "lame" and "Amputee" as in olden days there were not as verbally specifically distinguished as they are today. There is no relationship between Astronomical Objects (Known or seen Natural {Prior to Sputnik} extraterrestrial Objects) and teacups (Known and seen as Man Made Terrestrial Objects) such that even a fourth grader (such as photolack) could have seen the obvious Absence of 'Potential Connection' Ergo: your argument is Completely Specious and does Nothing to invalidate mine...regardless of your assertion here in post #238882 which clearly is a projection of your 'self reflection' or, you seeing the truth about yourself (The Magenta) and trying to project that upon me..... |
1) Can you prove your 'mythical' etymology? Do you have any proof whatsoever that the terms "lame" and "amputee" were once interchangeable? Also, can you prove that the bible refers to them in such a vague way before translation?
2) If my hyperbole offends you, you are an idiot. Let me provide a less comical, but equally poignant example.
History says things are buried in sand, so indication of? whether or not those were 1968 Dodge Darts?
No evidence that they are, no evidence that they are not.
No Solution available just speculations.
In this case man-made objects of value have been found buried in the sand. A 1968 Dodge Dart is a valuable man-made object, however it is a specific valuable man-made object that no one has ever claimed to have buried or to have found buried in the sand.(Just as no one has ever explicitly claimed amputee healing).
So, the safe assumption is that there are no 1968 Dodge Darts buried in the sand, until someone produces evidence for this, or claims to have done it.
Like I said, it isn't as comedic as the teacup analogy, but it still proves your point. You made several speculative jumps:
1. Lame has traditionally been used to refer to amputees
2. Greek and Hebrew have the same ambiguities as english
Then, you used these massive speculations to argue that since no evidence existed contrary to your speculative assumptions then no argument could really be made....which is blatantly false.
Even if lame has been found to be used as a general reference for amputess....and even if the same ambiguity existed in the languages of the people at that time....that still doesn't even begin to validate your claim that those lame men healed might have been amputees.
I imagine that if I witnessed Jesus regrow a limb....that I would SPECIFICALLY write "Then when Jesus touched his nub....his arm grew back instantly".
I imagine that I would not write it off as another incident of "Jesus healing the lame".
They specifically mention when he raises the dead....
They specifically mention when he gives sight to the blind...
But the forget to clarify that he grew someone's limb back???
Yet another wild speculation on your part, simply trying to give yourself enough plausible deniability to continue your ridiculous belief in an active and "miracle granting" God.
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 24 2007, 08:20 PM)
We already did....healing of amputees is the SPECIFIC miracle we are discussing...
Any documented cases to report?
Any documented cases to report?
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 24 2007, 11:55 PM)
Any documented cases to report?
Nothing like those in the dark challenging those in the dark for a little light..:-))
Nothing like those in the dark challenging those in the dark for a little light..:-))
QUOTE
Any documented cases to report?
None whatsoever....
I keep looking, but I cannot find any at all....
QUOTE (Robin+)
Oh Yes, could you please back up your claim that (I) have yet to answer "directly and honestly" well, ANY question!
Gladly since you provided two answers to this question prior to asking it.
Gladly since you provided two answers to this question prior to asking it.
QUOTE (Robin+)
Because (I) am not required to, as per redundancy...
Again, part of the original premise to this conversation.
The perception and arguments made are not my own in regard to the claimed healing by this god and it is not just past claims I speak of. All manner of faith healers, ministers and the like all claim that their god can, has and will perform miraculous healing of the faithful. If this is true, then asking the question of why the limitation in this claimed healing is a legitimate one.
Again, part of the original premise to this conversation.
The perception and arguments made are not my own in regard to the claimed healing by this god and it is not just past claims I speak of. All manner of faith healers, ministers and the like all claim that their god can, has and will perform miraculous healing of the faithful. If this is true, then asking the question of why the limitation in this claimed healing is a legitimate one.
As it is, it isn't just new age crap about frequencies and the potential for inner healing.
You mention and spoke of dis ease and “not at harmony”. This smacks of holistic healing wowo of the new age ilk. Your referencing does not speak to the examples I cited such as discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense.
If you cited the research and examples of how low-level electrical currents aid and accelerate in healing according to research it would not lend aid to the electricity based medical machines of the patent medicine era no more that citing research into frequency use supports the claims of new age sound healing or similar pseudoscience claims.
I’ve already commented on the similar new age claim of” life force”.
QUOTE (Robin+)
Actually (I) am not required to answer any of your questions.
You can actually participate in the debate and answer the question or you can stomp your feet and say that you don’t have to. But if it is the latter you resort to yet again, then are you here just to argue in general?
Don’t forget that list of people we can contact to verify your claim.
You can actually participate in the debate and answer the question or you can stomp your feet and say that you don’t have to. But if it is the latter you resort to yet again, then are you here just to argue in general?
Don’t forget that list of people we can contact to verify your claim.
QUOTE
Just listen to you, lol! I'm not in your classroom mate. You seem to highlight the discrepencies you feel about this supposed outside god that comes to everyone's rescue, and then you try to hold that god up to the very discrepency you see. That's one of those full circle arguemnts too. If it doersn't make sens ein the frist place then why ar eyou holding it up to that? Because of people's past perceptions?
Again, part of the original premise to this conversation.
The perception and arguments made are not my own in regard to the claimed healing by this god and it is not just past claims I speak of. All manner of faith healers, ministers and the like all claim that their god can, has and will perform miraculous healing of the faithful. If this is true, then asking the question of why the limitation in this claimed healing is a legitimate one.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Just listen to you, lol! I'm not in your classroom mate. You seem to highlight the discrepencies you feel about this supposed outside god that comes to everyone's rescue, and then you try to hold that god up to the very discrepency you see. That's one of those full circle arguemnts too. If it doersn't make sens ein the frist place then why ar eyou holding it up to that? Because of people's past perceptions? |
Again, part of the original premise to this conversation.
The perception and arguments made are not my own in regard to the claimed healing by this god and it is not just past claims I speak of. All manner of faith healers, ministers and the like all claim that their god can, has and will perform miraculous healing of the faithful. If this is true, then asking the question of why the limitation in this claimed healing is a legitimate one.
As it is, it isn't just new age crap about frequencies and the potential for inner healing.
You mention and spoke of dis ease and “not at harmony”. This smacks of holistic healing wowo of the new age ilk. Your referencing does not speak to the examples I cited such as discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense.
If you cited the research and examples of how low-level electrical currents aid and accelerate in healing according to research it would not lend aid to the electricity based medical machines of the patent medicine era no more that citing research into frequency use supports the claims of new age sound healing or similar pseudoscience claims.
I’ve already commented on the similar new age claim of” life force”.
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 25 2007, 12:34 AM)
Nothing like those in the dark challenging those in the dark for a little light..:-))
Some seek out the light and some seek out the dark. Yet, others seek out the truth.
Some seek out the light and some seek out the dark. Yet, others seek out the truth.
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+)
Biblical History says he healed the lame, so indication of? whether or not those were amputees?
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+)
There exists a connection between the words "lame" and "Amputee" as in olden days there were not as verbally specifically distinguished as they are today.
By your assumption. Theist and the faithful do not say it’s their faith that made them well. I have heard claims made that it may be due to their faith that God healed them, but their faith is not seen nor claimed to be the source of the “miracle”.
By your assumption. Theist and the faithful do not say it’s their faith that made them well. I have heard claims made that it may be due to their faith that God healed them, but their faith is not seen nor claimed to be the source of the “miracle”.
Now if you want to extend that kind of thing into some rediculous fantasy about why can't a severed limb magically come back to its owner and fix itself there and then, personally I think you should have taken up comedy.
Now you are just being ridiculous and making a strawman argument. Never once did I claim that the limb would be resurrected and reattached. Regeneration would be applicable as what is expected by the faithful to happen internally. And again, these are the claims and outlooks of the faithful, not mine.
So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
Why does the concept of disease being connected to disharmony "smack of holistic healing wowo"? You mean it does to you, and I repsect that. But there is no need to accept your narrow-minded view on that.
No, I mean it does not to any rational person seeking to treat disease as something more tangible than that stated by the like of new age medicine, holistic healers and the like. This would include other narrow minded people like the majority of the medical community. There is one thing to say about being too clinical and not recognizing a person’s emotional state during and illness and another to try to link their emotional state to their disease as is done with new age medical nonsense.
Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
About fifteen years ago I suffered acute neck problems. Having tried everything from crap pain killers to the usual methods like osteopaths, I was recommended acupuncture. After some six sessions of this I have never experienced the same neck problem again. I went into the session open-minded, and came out understanding the regulation of harmonious flows far better.
Your experience while I’m sure genuine and profound is anecdotal at best. I note no mention of the well know placebo effect and you open minded stance also ignores medical research into such therapies as acupuncture. Again, harmonious flows of what?
You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims. Your other claims is odd. Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong? Even with the knowledge that people are still wasting money and risking their health by using these methods? I choose not to support hucksters, snake oil men and conmen.
You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims. Your other claims is odd. Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong? Even with the knowledge that people are still wasting money and risking their health by using these methods? I choose not to support hucksters, snake oil men and conmen.
And my view is that you judge from your own base, and I don't even care to question that.
I question my own views all the time and based them upon more than just nonsensical claims like those made by the new age and holistic practitioners. If these practices are of benefit and can lead to actual treatments and cures, then they should not only welcome medical examination and investigation but would lead to new treatments and cures. So far, such investigation have revealed the claims of such people are unfounded and that these new age and holistic claims are not legitimate medical treatments. If you wish to believe they are legitimate, that is your right, but you seem to be overlook and dismissing the amount of research that has been done looking into these claims and the results that call into question the claims made.
Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means). Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means). Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
I hold the view that to ask why god doesn't heal amputees is like a playground smirk at little Johnny know it all. It's also like "well, if you are one of god's then throw yourself off the roof of your home and let's see him come save ya".
Again, it is asking a legitimate question based upon the claims of the faithfull or supporters of the associated religion. So if someone makes a factual claim like their god performs miracles of healing that to question these claims is wrong? Pointing out inconsistencies and such an obvious limitation is wrong? That leads to the spread of ignorance is applied generally.
What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation. Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation. Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
Like I said, darkness finds its playmates on the opposite side of the duality.
Meaning what about those who question the religious claims made?
Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
I'd recommend you actually profit from your time here, and should you really wish to understand something, go for something more constructuive than this tit for tat against your blind opponents.
And again, you make the assumption that I do not understand the topic at hand. Just because I question the nonsensical claims made does not mean I do not understand them. Again, this is a simple dismissal and castigation put forth by the followers of whatever is being question.
Constructive as in not asking questions that point out flaws in someone’s questionable or baseless claims? You may seek to accept anecdotally any and all claims but I choose to rely upon something more tangible and verifiable.
“Tit for tat”? This is a debate and discussion forum where people gather correct? Calling it tit for tat comes across as condemnation of discussion. And what blind opponents would those be? The people who believe that their all powerful god can heal any malady but chooses not to heal certain melodies or people who believe in and use nebulous terminology such as “harmonious flows”?
To quote that great philosopher Penn, “Everyone’s got a greegree.”
QUOTE (PuckSR+)
Biblical history says that Jesus did MANY things, but never references healing an amputee. The "lame" typically is a reference to crippled individuals. I do not believe that I have ever heard the term applied to someone who is an amputee.
When someone says they have a "lame" leg, they are typically referring to an injured limb, not a missing limb. This is all irrelevant though, since the "biblical history" does not say lame....I imagine it used a greek term with far more accuracy of description.
Mr. Robin Parsons & PuckSR: Although I really don't have either the time or the desire to enter into this discussion, I thought I would at least offer the following for your consideration. It seems rather apparent to me that you are both focusing in on the wrong word, "lame", from scripture. Scripture states:
"And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel."(Matthew 15:30-31)
First of all, there is a distinction made between the "lame" and those who were "maimed". This distinction is also pointed out in their respective healings. The "maimed" were made whole and the "lame" could walk. Additionally, the Greek word "kullos" that is translated as "maimed" in this passage of scripture is only translated as "maimed" in two other passages in the entire New Testament. The two passages are as follows:
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."(Matthew 18:8)
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."(Mark 9:43-44)
I think that it is quite obvious that the Greek word "kullos" which is translated as "maimed" in these two passages of scripture is speaking about amputation. I would heartily suggest to you that it is also speaking of amputation in the only other place where it appears in the New Testament, when Jesus healed the "maimed". For whatever that's worth(not that PuckSR gives a damn about amputees, as I already stated earlier in this thread). I must add that I find it rather ironic that the topic of debate is "Miracles"...being held on a thread where "the dumb speak" regularly. Take care.
When someone says they have a "lame" leg, they are typically referring to an injured limb, not a missing limb. This is all irrelevant though, since the "biblical history" does not say lame....I imagine it used a greek term with far more accuracy of description.
Mr. Robin Parsons & PuckSR: Although I really don't have either the time or the desire to enter into this discussion, I thought I would at least offer the following for your consideration. It seems rather apparent to me that you are both focusing in on the wrong word, "lame", from scripture. Scripture states:
"And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel."(Matthew 15:30-31)
First of all, there is a distinction made between the "lame" and those who were "maimed". This distinction is also pointed out in their respective healings. The "maimed" were made whole and the "lame" could walk. Additionally, the Greek word "kullos" that is translated as "maimed" in this passage of scripture is only translated as "maimed" in two other passages in the entire New Testament. The two passages are as follows:
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."(Matthew 18:8)
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."(Mark 9:43-44)
I think that it is quite obvious that the Greek word "kullos" which is translated as "maimed" in these two passages of scripture is speaking about amputation. I would heartily suggest to you that it is also speaking of amputation in the only other place where it appears in the New Testament, when Jesus healed the "maimed". For whatever that's worth(not that PuckSR gives a damn about amputees, as I already stated earlier in this thread). I must add that I find it rather ironic that the topic of debate is "Miracles"...being held on a thread where "the dumb speak" regularly. Take care.
If nothing else you have to admit that that first line is comedy....
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 01:00 AM)
None whatsoever....
I keep looking, but I cannot find any at all....
I believe both you and I have our have our suspicions on why God does not heal amputees.
However, I am still certain that belief in Christ can be a positive aspect of one’s life.
But to look for a miracle might be a fruitless endeavor.
I keep looking, but I cannot find any at all....
I believe both you and I have our have our suspicions on why God does not heal amputees.
However, I am still certain that belief in Christ can be a positive aspect of one’s life.
But to look for a miracle might be a fruitless endeavor.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 25 2007, 01:50 AM)
Again, part of the original premise to this conversation.
The perception and arguments made are not my own in regard to the claimed healing by this god and it is not just past claims I speak of. All manner of faith healers, ministers and the like all claim that their god can, has and will perform miraculous healing of the faithful. If this is true, then asking the question of why the limitation in this claimed healing is a legitimate one.
You mention and spoke of dis ease and “not at harmony”. This smacks of holistic healing wowo of the new age ilk. Your referencing does not speak to the examples I cited such as discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense.
If you cited the research and examples of how low-level electrical currents aid and accelerate in healing according to research it would not lend aid to the electricity based medical machines of the patent medicine era no more that citing research into frequency use supports the claims of new age sound healing or similar pseudoscience claims.
I’ve already commented on the similar new age claim of” life force”.
Even by their own recited stories their examples of healing centre around "it was your faith that made you well". Now if you want to extend that kind of thing into some rediculous fantasy about why can't a severed limb magically come back to its owner and fix itself there and then, personally I think you should have taken up comedy.
You know, I learn eventually what the plot is , and I see that this "amputation" thing is a new weapon for the athiests to use against those poor sleepers that have clung to their own misguided perceptions regarding the nature of a creator.
Why does the concept of disease being connected to disharmony "smack of holistic healing wowo"? You mean it does to you, and I repsect that. But there is no need to accept your narrow-minded view on that. Harmony and discord are two intrinsic methods that govern the appearance of matter. They regulate the law of things binding and radiating. We can see these principles at work, and I am adding the element of consciousness as an aspect of being able to influence the re-establishment of harmonious flows in the body. Music theory itself shows these laws within that context. Atoms show the same laws when something that has a harmonious ratio will bind, and when it has a discordant ratio will cause it to disperse. Within matter itself are the harmonic ratios that are either concordant to harmony or discordant , which causes its own radiating away. By the eleventh overtone in a standard overtone series, the tritone to the root fundamental appears, and this is quite a discordant relationship. But the tritone, depending on the strength of its influence on the matter involved can be reharmonised by the strength and additon of other tones. If it wasn't for the harmonius interchanges between things, I don't believe planets could bind together, or atoms hold themselves intact and attract.
In music, for example, one may bring together two tones, C and B. These on their own are very discordant and do not sound harmonious. Yet add the tones E and G to these two, and one produces the most harmonious and beautiful sounding chord. This kind of balance is a natural phenomena.
About fifteen years ago I suffered acute neck problems. Having tried everything from crap pain killers to the usual methods like osteopaths, I was recommended acupuncture. After some six sessions of this I have never experienced the same neck problem again. I went into the session open-minded, and came out understanding the regulation of harmonious flows far better. I don't judge something I don't understand, and when I understand it I still don't judge it, only share the view. And my view is that you judge from your own base, and I don't even care to question that.
And no, I don't come from the angle that many of these new agers come from. I consider it, as usual, like little five year olds in the driving seat of a formula one car. Very nice concepts, misguided and over the top and overblown. But there is a lot of well thought out research regarding what I mentioned, and yes it centres on consciousness, and Mind. And your beliefs on that are your own.
I hold the view that to ask why god doesn't heal amputees is like a playground smirk at little Johnny know it all. It's also like "well, if you are one of god's then throw yourself off the roof of your home and let's see him come save ya".
To hold such "it's nonsense" views you have no doubt done an in depth study in the laws of harmony, or read Walter Russells books like Universal One?
Like I said, darkness finds its playmates on the opposite side of the duality. Your argument is really aimed at the misunderstanding of many religions, but in effect you are wasting valuable time on it. I'd recommend you actually profit from your time here, and should you really wish to understand something, go for something more constructuive than this tit for tat against your blind opponents.
The perception and arguments made are not my own in regard to the claimed healing by this god and it is not just past claims I speak of. All manner of faith healers, ministers and the like all claim that their god can, has and will perform miraculous healing of the faithful. If this is true, then asking the question of why the limitation in this claimed healing is a legitimate one.
You mention and spoke of dis ease and “not at harmony”. This smacks of holistic healing wowo of the new age ilk. Your referencing does not speak to the examples I cited such as discord, energy imbalances, karmic disturbances or any other form of new age nonsense.
If you cited the research and examples of how low-level electrical currents aid and accelerate in healing according to research it would not lend aid to the electricity based medical machines of the patent medicine era no more that citing research into frequency use supports the claims of new age sound healing or similar pseudoscience claims.
I’ve already commented on the similar new age claim of” life force”.
Even by their own recited stories their examples of healing centre around "it was your faith that made you well". Now if you want to extend that kind of thing into some rediculous fantasy about why can't a severed limb magically come back to its owner and fix itself there and then, personally I think you should have taken up comedy.
You know, I learn eventually what the plot is , and I see that this "amputation" thing is a new weapon for the athiests to use against those poor sleepers that have clung to their own misguided perceptions regarding the nature of a creator.
Why does the concept of disease being connected to disharmony "smack of holistic healing wowo"? You mean it does to you, and I repsect that. But there is no need to accept your narrow-minded view on that. Harmony and discord are two intrinsic methods that govern the appearance of matter. They regulate the law of things binding and radiating. We can see these principles at work, and I am adding the element of consciousness as an aspect of being able to influence the re-establishment of harmonious flows in the body. Music theory itself shows these laws within that context. Atoms show the same laws when something that has a harmonious ratio will bind, and when it has a discordant ratio will cause it to disperse. Within matter itself are the harmonic ratios that are either concordant to harmony or discordant , which causes its own radiating away. By the eleventh overtone in a standard overtone series, the tritone to the root fundamental appears, and this is quite a discordant relationship. But the tritone, depending on the strength of its influence on the matter involved can be reharmonised by the strength and additon of other tones. If it wasn't for the harmonius interchanges between things, I don't believe planets could bind together, or atoms hold themselves intact and attract.
In music, for example, one may bring together two tones, C and B. These on their own are very discordant and do not sound harmonious. Yet add the tones E and G to these two, and one produces the most harmonious and beautiful sounding chord. This kind of balance is a natural phenomena.
About fifteen years ago I suffered acute neck problems. Having tried everything from crap pain killers to the usual methods like osteopaths, I was recommended acupuncture. After some six sessions of this I have never experienced the same neck problem again. I went into the session open-minded, and came out understanding the regulation of harmonious flows far better. I don't judge something I don't understand, and when I understand it I still don't judge it, only share the view. And my view is that you judge from your own base, and I don't even care to question that.
And no, I don't come from the angle that many of these new agers come from. I consider it, as usual, like little five year olds in the driving seat of a formula one car. Very nice concepts, misguided and over the top and overblown. But there is a lot of well thought out research regarding what I mentioned, and yes it centres on consciousness, and Mind. And your beliefs on that are your own.
I hold the view that to ask why god doesn't heal amputees is like a playground smirk at little Johnny know it all. It's also like "well, if you are one of god's then throw yourself off the roof of your home and let's see him come save ya".
To hold such "it's nonsense" views you have no doubt done an in depth study in the laws of harmony, or read Walter Russells books like Universal One?
Like I said, darkness finds its playmates on the opposite side of the duality. Your argument is really aimed at the misunderstanding of many religions, but in effect you are wasting valuable time on it. I'd recommend you actually profit from your time here, and should you really wish to understand something, go for something more constructuive than this tit for tat against your blind opponents.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 25 2007, 02:07 AM)
Some seek out the light and some seek out the dark. Yet, others seek out the truth.
And that truth is at the marriage point of light and dark, at what I say is the 4.5 mirror point axis. Check out this structrue making itself evident around the perfect symmetry of the Dorian Mode, for example, where tonal light and dark marry in perfect symmetry, and expansion and contraction continually swap over . Or check out the cyles evident within numbers, and find how the same 4.5 there also holds the clockwise and anti-clockwise flows in perfect symmetry. Check out how this effects the fibonacci numbers, that nature is seen to employ, and that has the golden mean ratio run through it. This too will give insight into how cycles swap over both sides of the mirror point, from expansion to contraction, continually. Consider that cyclic flow to regulate the construction of the body, and that it is harmonius interchange that will keep the body well, when centred around the point of perfect symmetry. Be aware of the same information and come to a different conclusion if you like. Or when you come to the same results as I have mentioned, do further study to help understand exactly how the body regulates these principles, rather than go out to mess with the brains of those poor "believers".;-)
And that truth is at the marriage point of light and dark, at what I say is the 4.5 mirror point axis. Check out this structrue making itself evident around the perfect symmetry of the Dorian Mode, for example, where tonal light and dark marry in perfect symmetry, and expansion and contraction continually swap over . Or check out the cyles evident within numbers, and find how the same 4.5 there also holds the clockwise and anti-clockwise flows in perfect symmetry. Check out how this effects the fibonacci numbers, that nature is seen to employ, and that has the golden mean ratio run through it. This too will give insight into how cycles swap over both sides of the mirror point, from expansion to contraction, continually. Consider that cyclic flow to regulate the construction of the body, and that it is harmonius interchange that will keep the body well, when centred around the point of perfect symmetry. Be aware of the same information and come to a different conclusion if you like. Or when you come to the same results as I have mentioned, do further study to help understand exactly how the body regulates these principles, rather than go out to mess with the brains of those poor "believers".;-)
QUOTE
Even by their own recited stories their examples of healing centre around "it was your faith that made you well".
By your assumption. Theist and the faithful do not say it’s their faith that made them well. I have heard claims made that it may be due to their faith that God healed them, but their faith is not seen nor claimed to be the source of the “miracle”.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Even by their own recited stories their examples of healing centre around "it was your faith that made you well". |
By your assumption. Theist and the faithful do not say it’s their faith that made them well. I have heard claims made that it may be due to their faith that God healed them, but their faith is not seen nor claimed to be the source of the “miracle”.
Now if you want to extend that kind of thing into some rediculous fantasy about why can't a severed limb magically come back to its owner and fix itself there and then, personally I think you should have taken up comedy.
Now you are just being ridiculous and making a strawman argument. Never once did I claim that the limb would be resurrected and reattached. Regeneration would be applicable as what is expected by the faithful to happen internally. And again, these are the claims and outlooks of the faithful, not mine.
QUOTE
You know, I learn eventually what the plot is , and I see that this "amputation" thing is a new weapon for the athiests to use against those poor sleepers that have clung to their own misguided perceptions regarding the nature of a creator.
So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You know, I learn eventually what the plot is , and I see that this "amputation" thing is a new weapon for the athiests to use against those poor sleepers that have clung to their own misguided perceptions regarding the nature of a creator. |
So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
Why does the concept of disease being connected to disharmony "smack of holistic healing wowo"? You mean it does to you, and I repsect that. But there is no need to accept your narrow-minded view on that.
No, I mean it does not to any rational person seeking to treat disease as something more tangible than that stated by the like of new age medicine, holistic healers and the like. This would include other narrow minded people like the majority of the medical community. There is one thing to say about being too clinical and not recognizing a person’s emotional state during and illness and another to try to link their emotional state to their disease as is done with new age medical nonsense.
QUOTE
We can see these principles at work, and I am adding the element of consciousness as an aspect of being able to influence the re-establishment of harmonious flows in the body.
Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| We can see these principles at work, and I am adding the element of consciousness as an aspect of being able to influence the re-establishment of harmonious flows in the body. |
Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
About fifteen years ago I suffered acute neck problems. Having tried everything from crap pain killers to the usual methods like osteopaths, I was recommended acupuncture. After some six sessions of this I have never experienced the same neck problem again. I went into the session open-minded, and came out understanding the regulation of harmonious flows far better.
Your experience while I’m sure genuine and profound is anecdotal at best. I note no mention of the well know placebo effect and you open minded stance also ignores medical research into such therapies as acupuncture. Again, harmonious flows of what?
QUOTE
I don't judge something I don't understand, and when I understand it I still don't judge it, only share the view.
You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims. Your other claims is odd. Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong? Even with the knowledge that people are still wasting money and risking their health by using these methods? I choose not to support hucksters, snake oil men and conmen.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I don't judge something I don't understand, and when I understand it I still don't judge it, only share the view. |
You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims. Your other claims is odd. Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong? Even with the knowledge that people are still wasting money and risking their health by using these methods? I choose not to support hucksters, snake oil men and conmen.
And my view is that you judge from your own base, and I don't even care to question that.
I question my own views all the time and based them upon more than just nonsensical claims like those made by the new age and holistic practitioners. If these practices are of benefit and can lead to actual treatments and cures, then they should not only welcome medical examination and investigation but would lead to new treatments and cures. So far, such investigation have revealed the claims of such people are unfounded and that these new age and holistic claims are not legitimate medical treatments. If you wish to believe they are legitimate, that is your right, but you seem to be overlook and dismissing the amount of research that has been done looking into these claims and the results that call into question the claims made.
QUOTE
And no, I don't come from the angle that many of these new agers come from. I consider it, as usual, like little five year olds in the driving seat of a formula one car. Very nice concepts, misguided and over the top and overblown. But there is a lot of well thought out research regarding what I mentioned, and yes it centres on consciousness, and Mind. And your beliefs on that are your own.
Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means). Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| And no, I don't come from the angle that many of these new agers come from. I consider it, as usual, like little five year olds in the driving seat of a formula one car. Very nice concepts, misguided and over the top and overblown. But there is a lot of well thought out research regarding what I mentioned, and yes it centres on consciousness, and Mind. And your beliefs on that are your own. |
Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means). Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
I hold the view that to ask why god doesn't heal amputees is like a playground smirk at little Johnny know it all. It's also like "well, if you are one of god's then throw yourself off the roof of your home and let's see him come save ya".
Again, it is asking a legitimate question based upon the claims of the faithfull or supporters of the associated religion. So if someone makes a factual claim like their god performs miracles of healing that to question these claims is wrong? Pointing out inconsistencies and such an obvious limitation is wrong? That leads to the spread of ignorance is applied generally.
QUOTE
To hold such "it's nonsense" views you have no doubt done an in depth study in the laws of harmony, or read Walter Russells books like Universal One?
What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation. Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| To hold such "it's nonsense" views you have no doubt done an in depth study in the laws of harmony, or read Walter Russells books like Universal One? |
What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation. Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
Like I said, darkness finds its playmates on the opposite side of the duality.
Meaning what about those who question the religious claims made?
QUOTE
Your argument is really aimed at the misunderstanding of many religions, but in effect you are wasting valuable time on it.
Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Your argument is really aimed at the misunderstanding of many religions, but in effect you are wasting valuable time on it. |
Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
I'd recommend you actually profit from your time here, and should you really wish to understand something, go for something more constructuive than this tit for tat against your blind opponents.
And again, you make the assumption that I do not understand the topic at hand. Just because I question the nonsensical claims made does not mean I do not understand them. Again, this is a simple dismissal and castigation put forth by the followers of whatever is being question.
Constructive as in not asking questions that point out flaws in someone’s questionable or baseless claims? You may seek to accept anecdotally any and all claims but I choose to rely upon something more tangible and verifiable.
“Tit for tat”? This is a debate and discussion forum where people gather correct? Calling it tit for tat comes across as condemnation of discussion. And what blind opponents would those be? The people who believe that their all powerful god can heal any malady but chooses not to heal certain melodies or people who believe in and use nebulous terminology such as “harmonious flows”?
To quote that great philosopher Penn, “Everyone’s got a greegree.”
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 24 2007, 11:20 PM)
(SNIP) Mr. Robin Parsons & PuckSR: Although I really don't have either the time or the desire to enter into this discussion, I thought I would at least offer the following for your consideration. It seems rather apparent to me that you are both focusing in on the wrong word, "lame", from scripture. Scripture states:
"And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel."(Matthew 15:30-31)
First of all, there is a distinction made between the "lame" and those who were "maimed". This distinction is also pointed out in their respective healings. The "maimed" were made whole and the "lame" could walk. Additionally, the Greek word "kullos" that is translated as "maimed" in this passage of scripture is only translated as "maimed" in two other passages in the entire New Testament. The two passages are as follows: (SNoP)
"And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel."(Matthew 15:30-31)
First of all, there is a distinction made between the "lame" and those who were "maimed". This distinction is also pointed out in their respective healings. The "maimed" were made whole and the "lame" could walk. Additionally, the Greek word "kullos" that is translated as "maimed" in this passage of scripture is only translated as "maimed" in two other passages in the entire New Testament. The two passages are as follows: (SNoP)
Actually, a great 'thanks' to you for what you have shown me, Biblical evidence - human Testimony - of the maimed having been healed.
Although (I) too had recalled this passage....
Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: If we go on the premise that he existed and considering the claims in the bible, yes maimed would be applicable. But my question is not so much about Jesus but more specifically to God. Healings considered miraculous and attributed to God have occurred since the time of Jesus. Even if we go with the premise that Jesus did heal amputees described as maimed, it still does not address why no similar type of miracles have occurred since then or recorded by mankind. Even in modern times, we heard of miraculous healings but not of the maimed.
Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: If we go on the premise that he existed and considering the claims in the bible, yes maimed would be applicable. But my question is not so much about Jesus but more specifically to God. Healings considered miraculous and attributed to God have occurred since the time of Jesus. Even if we go with the premise that Jesus did heal amputees described as maimed, it still does not address why no similar type of miracles have occurred since then or recorded by mankind. Even in modern times, we heard of miraculous healings but not of the maimed.
Would you consider changing your comment regarding the Christian God never healing amputees in the history of the religion?
I can see your point but I was not speaking of just Jesus or even specifically about him and this addresses another limitation. If we operating as a given that Jesus healed the maimed, why has it not been recorder that God did? Is God limited as I believe Robin claimed that he must work through a person in order to heal like this?
Although (I) too had recalled this passage....
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 24 2007, 11:20 PM)
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."(Matthew 18:8)
Best to appreciate what you have, be grateful for it......Living-life
Problem Solved.
Big Thanks.
Genesplicer what a numb-skull, to 'back up' your assertion you need show where (I) have actually typed out - posted a response to a Question and then Demonstrate to EVERYONE how (I) was NOT (according to you!) "Honest AND DIRECT"
(What?? you need Instructions??
Must be easy for you to ignore things, ignorant people would usually find it like that .....(I) suppose )
Problem Solved.
Big Thanks.
Genesplicer what a numb-skull, to 'back up' your assertion you need show where (I) have actually typed out - posted a response to a Question and then Demonstrate to EVERYONE how (I) was NOT (according to you!) "Honest AND DIRECT"
(What?? you need Instructions??
Must be easy for you to ignore things, ignorant people would usually find it like that .....(I) suppose )
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 25 2007, 01:41 PM)
By your assumption. Theist and the faithful do not say it’s their faith that made them well. I have heard claims made that it may be due to their faith that God healed them, but their faith is not seen nor claimed to be the source of the “miracle”.
Now you are just being ridiculous and making a strawman argument. Never once did I claim that the limb would be resurrected and reattached. Regeneration would be applicable as what is expected by the faithful to happen internally. And again, these are the claims and outlooks of the faithful, not mine.
So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
No, I mean it does not to any rational person seeking to treat disease as something more tangible than that stated by the like of new age medicine, holistic healers and the like. This would include other narrow minded people like the majority of the medical community. There is one thing to say about being too clinical and not recognizing a person’s emotional state during and illness and another to try to link their emotional state to their disease as is done with new age medical nonsense.
Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
Your experience while I’m sure genuine and profound is anecdotal at best. I note no mention of the well know placebo effect and you open minded stance also ignores medical research into such therapies as acupuncture. Again, harmonious flows of what?
You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims. Your other claims is odd. Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong? Even with the knowledge that people are still wasting money and risking their health by using these methods? I choose not to support hucksters, snake oil men and conmen.
I question my own views all the time and based them upon more than just nonsensical claims like those made by the new age and holistic practitioners. If these practices are of benefit and can lead to actual treatments and cures, then they should not only welcome medical examination and investigation but would lead to new treatments and cures. So far, such investigation have revealed the claims of such people are unfounded and that these new age and holistic claims are not legitimate medical treatments. If you wish to believe they are legitimate, that is your right, but you seem to be overlook and dismissing the amount of research that has been done looking into these claims and the results that call into question the claims made.
Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means). Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
Again, it is asking a legitimate question based upon the claims of the faithfull or supporters of the associated religion. So if someone makes a factual claim like their god performs miracles of healing that to question these claims is wrong? Pointing out inconsistencies and such an obvious limitation is wrong? That leads to the spread of ignorance is applied generally.
What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation. Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
Meaning what about those who question the religious claims made?
Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
And again, you make the assumption that I do not understand the topic at hand. Just because I question the nonsensical claims made does not mean I do not understand them. Again, this is a simple dismissal and castigation put forth by the followers of whatever is being question.
Constructive as in not asking questions that point out flaws in someone’s questionable or baseless claims? You may seek to accept anecdotally any and all claims but I choose to rely upon something more tangible and verifiable.
“Tit for tat”? This is a debate and discussion forum where people gather correct? Calling it tit for tat comes across as condemnation of discussion. And what blind opponents would those be? The people who believe that their all powerful god can heal any malady but chooses not to heal certain melodies or people who believe in and use nebulous terminology such as “harmonious flows”?
To quote that great philosopher Penn, “Everyone’s got a greegree.”
Can't answerr every point, as have chores to do. Will get back to you on the other questions.
Placebo effect - What exactly is it, and how does it work in reality? A perosn gets injected with water , beleiving it to be a storng sedative to relieve pain, and this person actually feels the loss of pain. What exactly does that suggest about the role consciousness and belief plays in the matter of dealing with physical symptoms?
The placebo effect is the measurable, observable, or felt improvement in health not attributable to treatment. This effect is believed by many people to be due to the placebo itself in some mysterious way. A placebo (Latin for "I shall please") is a medication or treatment believed by the administrator of the treatment to be inert or innocuous. Placebos may be sugar pills or starch pills. Even "fake" surgery and "fake" psychotherapy are considered placebos.
Some believe the placebo effect is psychological, due to a belief in the treatment or to a subjective feeling of improvement.
The combined principles of modern biology, physics, and chemistry are rising in quantum leaps to keep pace with the ancient knowledge and wisdom of our human ancestry. With the rise of technology it has become possible to define in understandable terms that which previously had no explanation - the dualistic human process of inner and outer growth which affects not only humans and their world in third dimensional existence and beyond, but all life throughout the quantum universes.
Once the bridge between science and philosophy has been made complete, we will begin to see that there has never been a true discrepancy. That bridge is consciousness. The hotly debated scientific versus philosophical solution to mankind’s quest concerning human nature and the gods becomes a moot point. It will be found that the scientist and the philosopher speak of the same phenomena, yet in similar, but different languages. The scientific speaks the language of exoteric geometry relating to a physical, tangible realm.
The philosopher speaks the language of esoteric geometry relating to an ethereal realm. It will also become obvious, that in all fairness to ancient wisdom and it’s misunderstood symbology, it has maintained sound and immutable philosophical and scientific principles and knowledge. However, this has been contained solely within the language of various philosophical systems and most often sometimes secretively and intentionally so in order to preserve integrity.
There are many paths leading to Truth. The path of consciousness according to mystics is an innate reality for us and the key to the mysteries of God and the universe. It is considered by mystics the closest source of energy, harmony, and knowledge of Self and God. Therefore, they have resolved throughout the ages to uphold that consciousness cannot be measured by scientific means, but also cannot be discredited by it, because it does not exist purely in the temporal realm.
The path of the scientist, who focuses on the external realms and strives to explain the world through measures in space and time, still is forced to follow the laws of cause and effect, or action versus reaction - the same laws upheld by the philosophers. Thereby, followers of each method end up on the same path, for one cannot be understood nor explained in an acceptable, coherent manner without the other. "Nature is a great open book in which everything can be found, if we learn to draw from it the inspiration which it has given to thinkers of all ages. If we learn her language, nature will reveal to us all the laws of life and the universe."
It is within the science of human biology and the wisdom of human philosophy wherein lies our immediate concern. Both the biological and the spiritual processes of human evolution are natural and inevitable. These will occur with or without our conscious will being focused toward that cause. This is referred to as action through inaction, because the entire universe is an infinitely moving, changing, living force.
Even if we take no conscious action to understand or keep pace with that force, we are contained within it and thereby totally affected by it as separate units and as a whole. There is no way to ignore it and it is this force that drives the unconscious to become aware of itSELF - and to seek the counterbalance of consciousness and enlightenment -The Union and Reunion of Opposites. In one sense, this is UNION, because we have never really as humans possessed the SELF, and in another sense it is REUNION, or redemption, because we are getting back the SELF that belongs to us.
The Source of our being is sound. Transmitted sound oscillates creating quantum particle waves (frequencies) measurable in cycles per second (hertz units). The resonating particle waves constitute the various dimensional realms and the oscillation rate determines how the waves are banded together within a dimension. Various rates of frequency actually determine the density of sound and as it slows and gains distance/separation from its originating point it both expands and moves through the formation of light, the color spectrum, and finally spirals downward into matter, composed of atoms.
The atom is spherical with electrons orbiting the nucleus. Through magnetic force, the positive particles within the nucleus bonded with an equal number of negative particles outside the nucleus create the neutrality of the atom. Atoms cluster and grow in harmonic sequence according to direct oscillation from the Source. As the cluster becomes larger and more dense, the orbit of the atoms is reduced in speed and the matter becomes even more dense. The atom resonates forth and back between two dimensions at such a high rate that it creates its own dual, null resonance wave (similar opposite polarities) which is the balance of the forces of inertia and gravity.
A balance holds opposing forces, bound
But separate. Herein harmony is found,
The child of Strife and Love. The keen-edged blade
Divides accurately, truth with wisdom weighed.
By balanced deeds the cosmic mind is crowned.
Versus de Arcanis Majoribus
This null resonance wave is known in modern physics as the electromagnetic "zero point" and is the center of the electron and the time reversed positron. According to the conclusions of some contemporary physicists, mass and gravity are not real, but assumed, and gravity is a fluctuation force produced when atoms react within a vacuum of energy. Gravity determines space and time, and when the gravitational force is reduced, the space/time continuum is transcended. Thus, contained within matter itSELF is a vacuum - a quantum wave of calm inner space that has its own resonance and energy and esoterically speaking, is the place of union with the force known as God. This vacuum has no distance and no time and may well be considered the realm or dimension of angels. It may also be considered the realm of consciousness wherein the past, present, and future are seen in the same light.
Once the atom gains high density and has thereby altered its ability to produce a balanced null resonance wave, it becomes less capable of receiving direct oscillation, or impetus from the Source, and is thereby considered a resistor. This is exemplified in the basic foundations of electricity, as when the electron is shielded by a resistor the movement of electrons in the energy field is slowed. In this situation, the atom then flounders, spiraling downward toward the more dense, physical realms. On the other hand, it if spins too fast and loses too much density, or becomes too conductive, it also loses the delicate balance that affords the null resonance wave. It then becomes ethereal and spiraling upward, detaches from the physical realms. In this condition it remains an energy, but one that science has not defined. In relationship to the rise to higher consciousness, this upward ethereal ascension may seem desirable.
However, while many esoteric systems teach ascension, if this process occurs prematurely and without all the faculties having been fully prepared, it can result in ill effects in the improperly balanced/aligned atomic mass, or even cause combustion. For this reason it appears critical to balance the atomic structure of both the inner body of light and the outer body of flesh in order to keep the channels clear to the Source. In other words, our immediate goal should be balance, or The Union and Reunion of Opposites. When the opposite polarities are balanced, only then can one ascend.
Another aspect of atomic biology is the double helix structure of DNA, symbolized in medicine and philosophy by the caduceus (two serpents entwined on a staff). The naturally alchemized elements in the body produce a connective, magnetic field around the double helix and this field may serve as a conductive path or channel for higher forces (literally a physical, conductive gateway between the inner light body and the physical body).
The structure of both the atom and the DNA and their function in human life is not only the critical substance of biological and physical science, but also of philosophy and religion. An understanding of how they interrelate with the higher life forces - and the Source - points one toward the pathway of The Union and Reunion of Opposites.
In philosophical terms, The Union and Reunion of Opposites is described as the integration and unification of the conscious and the unconscious. This is symbolized in every conceivable pair of opposites (i.e. God/Satan, Sun/Moon, light/dark, male/female, fire/water, active/passive, life/ death, etc.) The harmonizing of the functions of consciousness brings into balance thinking, sensing, feeling, and intuition.
These are symbolized in the four alchemical elements of fire, air, earth, and water. At the same time these four functions are being brought into harmony, the fully integrated consciousness must be unified with its polar opposite - unconsciousness. The strife between the opposites creates the rotation (oscillation) of the elements and the task of the SELF is to harmonize these elements in order to maintain a balanced rotation (the same referred to as the null resonance wave produced by polarization of the atom). Such is the task of the alchemical philosopher.
http://www.sangraal.com/library/rtc3.htm
Now you are just being ridiculous and making a strawman argument. Never once did I claim that the limb would be resurrected and reattached. Regeneration would be applicable as what is expected by the faithful to happen internally. And again, these are the claims and outlooks of the faithful, not mine.
So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
No, I mean it does not to any rational person seeking to treat disease as something more tangible than that stated by the like of new age medicine, holistic healers and the like. This would include other narrow minded people like the majority of the medical community. There is one thing to say about being too clinical and not recognizing a person’s emotional state during and illness and another to try to link their emotional state to their disease as is done with new age medical nonsense.
Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
Your experience while I’m sure genuine and profound is anecdotal at best. I note no mention of the well know placebo effect and you open minded stance also ignores medical research into such therapies as acupuncture. Again, harmonious flows of what?
You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims. Your other claims is odd. Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong? Even with the knowledge that people are still wasting money and risking their health by using these methods? I choose not to support hucksters, snake oil men and conmen.
I question my own views all the time and based them upon more than just nonsensical claims like those made by the new age and holistic practitioners. If these practices are of benefit and can lead to actual treatments and cures, then they should not only welcome medical examination and investigation but would lead to new treatments and cures. So far, such investigation have revealed the claims of such people are unfounded and that these new age and holistic claims are not legitimate medical treatments. If you wish to believe they are legitimate, that is your right, but you seem to be overlook and dismissing the amount of research that has been done looking into these claims and the results that call into question the claims made.
Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means). Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
Again, it is asking a legitimate question based upon the claims of the faithfull or supporters of the associated religion. So if someone makes a factual claim like their god performs miracles of healing that to question these claims is wrong? Pointing out inconsistencies and such an obvious limitation is wrong? That leads to the spread of ignorance is applied generally.
What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation. Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
Meaning what about those who question the religious claims made?
Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
And again, you make the assumption that I do not understand the topic at hand. Just because I question the nonsensical claims made does not mean I do not understand them. Again, this is a simple dismissal and castigation put forth by the followers of whatever is being question.
Constructive as in not asking questions that point out flaws in someone’s questionable or baseless claims? You may seek to accept anecdotally any and all claims but I choose to rely upon something more tangible and verifiable.
“Tit for tat”? This is a debate and discussion forum where people gather correct? Calling it tit for tat comes across as condemnation of discussion. And what blind opponents would those be? The people who believe that their all powerful god can heal any malady but chooses not to heal certain melodies or people who believe in and use nebulous terminology such as “harmonious flows”?
To quote that great philosopher Penn, “Everyone’s got a greegree.”
Can't answerr every point, as have chores to do. Will get back to you on the other questions.
Placebo effect - What exactly is it, and how does it work in reality? A perosn gets injected with water , beleiving it to be a storng sedative to relieve pain, and this person actually feels the loss of pain. What exactly does that suggest about the role consciousness and belief plays in the matter of dealing with physical symptoms?
The placebo effect is the measurable, observable, or felt improvement in health not attributable to treatment. This effect is believed by many people to be due to the placebo itself in some mysterious way. A placebo (Latin for "I shall please") is a medication or treatment believed by the administrator of the treatment to be inert or innocuous. Placebos may be sugar pills or starch pills. Even "fake" surgery and "fake" psychotherapy are considered placebos.
Some believe the placebo effect is psychological, due to a belief in the treatment or to a subjective feeling of improvement.
The combined principles of modern biology, physics, and chemistry are rising in quantum leaps to keep pace with the ancient knowledge and wisdom of our human ancestry. With the rise of technology it has become possible to define in understandable terms that which previously had no explanation - the dualistic human process of inner and outer growth which affects not only humans and their world in third dimensional existence and beyond, but all life throughout the quantum universes.
Once the bridge between science and philosophy has been made complete, we will begin to see that there has never been a true discrepancy. That bridge is consciousness. The hotly debated scientific versus philosophical solution to mankind’s quest concerning human nature and the gods becomes a moot point. It will be found that the scientist and the philosopher speak of the same phenomena, yet in similar, but different languages. The scientific speaks the language of exoteric geometry relating to a physical, tangible realm.
The philosopher speaks the language of esoteric geometry relating to an ethereal realm. It will also become obvious, that in all fairness to ancient wisdom and it’s misunderstood symbology, it has maintained sound and immutable philosophical and scientific principles and knowledge. However, this has been contained solely within the language of various philosophical systems and most often sometimes secretively and intentionally so in order to preserve integrity.
There are many paths leading to Truth. The path of consciousness according to mystics is an innate reality for us and the key to the mysteries of God and the universe. It is considered by mystics the closest source of energy, harmony, and knowledge of Self and God. Therefore, they have resolved throughout the ages to uphold that consciousness cannot be measured by scientific means, but also cannot be discredited by it, because it does not exist purely in the temporal realm.
The path of the scientist, who focuses on the external realms and strives to explain the world through measures in space and time, still is forced to follow the laws of cause and effect, or action versus reaction - the same laws upheld by the philosophers. Thereby, followers of each method end up on the same path, for one cannot be understood nor explained in an acceptable, coherent manner without the other. "Nature is a great open book in which everything can be found, if we learn to draw from it the inspiration which it has given to thinkers of all ages. If we learn her language, nature will reveal to us all the laws of life and the universe."
It is within the science of human biology and the wisdom of human philosophy wherein lies our immediate concern. Both the biological and the spiritual processes of human evolution are natural and inevitable. These will occur with or without our conscious will being focused toward that cause. This is referred to as action through inaction, because the entire universe is an infinitely moving, changing, living force.
Even if we take no conscious action to understand or keep pace with that force, we are contained within it and thereby totally affected by it as separate units and as a whole. There is no way to ignore it and it is this force that drives the unconscious to become aware of itSELF - and to seek the counterbalance of consciousness and enlightenment -The Union and Reunion of Opposites. In one sense, this is UNION, because we have never really as humans possessed the SELF, and in another sense it is REUNION, or redemption, because we are getting back the SELF that belongs to us.
The Source of our being is sound. Transmitted sound oscillates creating quantum particle waves (frequencies) measurable in cycles per second (hertz units). The resonating particle waves constitute the various dimensional realms and the oscillation rate determines how the waves are banded together within a dimension. Various rates of frequency actually determine the density of sound and as it slows and gains distance/separation from its originating point it both expands and moves through the formation of light, the color spectrum, and finally spirals downward into matter, composed of atoms.
The atom is spherical with electrons orbiting the nucleus. Through magnetic force, the positive particles within the nucleus bonded with an equal number of negative particles outside the nucleus create the neutrality of the atom. Atoms cluster and grow in harmonic sequence according to direct oscillation from the Source. As the cluster becomes larger and more dense, the orbit of the atoms is reduced in speed and the matter becomes even more dense. The atom resonates forth and back between two dimensions at such a high rate that it creates its own dual, null resonance wave (similar opposite polarities) which is the balance of the forces of inertia and gravity.
A balance holds opposing forces, bound
But separate. Herein harmony is found,
The child of Strife and Love. The keen-edged blade
Divides accurately, truth with wisdom weighed.
By balanced deeds the cosmic mind is crowned.
Versus de Arcanis Majoribus
This null resonance wave is known in modern physics as the electromagnetic "zero point" and is the center of the electron and the time reversed positron. According to the conclusions of some contemporary physicists, mass and gravity are not real, but assumed, and gravity is a fluctuation force produced when atoms react within a vacuum of energy. Gravity determines space and time, and when the gravitational force is reduced, the space/time continuum is transcended. Thus, contained within matter itSELF is a vacuum - a quantum wave of calm inner space that has its own resonance and energy and esoterically speaking, is the place of union with the force known as God. This vacuum has no distance and no time and may well be considered the realm or dimension of angels. It may also be considered the realm of consciousness wherein the past, present, and future are seen in the same light.
Once the atom gains high density and has thereby altered its ability to produce a balanced null resonance wave, it becomes less capable of receiving direct oscillation, or impetus from the Source, and is thereby considered a resistor. This is exemplified in the basic foundations of electricity, as when the electron is shielded by a resistor the movement of electrons in the energy field is slowed. In this situation, the atom then flounders, spiraling downward toward the more dense, physical realms. On the other hand, it if spins too fast and loses too much density, or becomes too conductive, it also loses the delicate balance that affords the null resonance wave. It then becomes ethereal and spiraling upward, detaches from the physical realms. In this condition it remains an energy, but one that science has not defined. In relationship to the rise to higher consciousness, this upward ethereal ascension may seem desirable.
However, while many esoteric systems teach ascension, if this process occurs prematurely and without all the faculties having been fully prepared, it can result in ill effects in the improperly balanced/aligned atomic mass, or even cause combustion. For this reason it appears critical to balance the atomic structure of both the inner body of light and the outer body of flesh in order to keep the channels clear to the Source. In other words, our immediate goal should be balance, or The Union and Reunion of Opposites. When the opposite polarities are balanced, only then can one ascend.
Another aspect of atomic biology is the double helix structure of DNA, symbolized in medicine and philosophy by the caduceus (two serpents entwined on a staff). The naturally alchemized elements in the body produce a connective, magnetic field around the double helix and this field may serve as a conductive path or channel for higher forces (literally a physical, conductive gateway between the inner light body and the physical body).
The structure of both the atom and the DNA and their function in human life is not only the critical substance of biological and physical science, but also of philosophy and religion. An understanding of how they interrelate with the higher life forces - and the Source - points one toward the pathway of The Union and Reunion of Opposites.
In philosophical terms, The Union and Reunion of Opposites is described as the integration and unification of the conscious and the unconscious. This is symbolized in every conceivable pair of opposites (i.e. God/Satan, Sun/Moon, light/dark, male/female, fire/water, active/passive, life/ death, etc.) The harmonizing of the functions of consciousness brings into balance thinking, sensing, feeling, and intuition.
These are symbolized in the four alchemical elements of fire, air, earth, and water. At the same time these four functions are being brought into harmony, the fully integrated consciousness must be unified with its polar opposite - unconsciousness. The strife between the opposites creates the rotation (oscillation) of the elements and the task of the SELF is to harmonize these elements in order to maintain a balanced rotation (the same referred to as the null resonance wave produced by polarization of the atom). Such is the task of the alchemical philosopher.
http://www.sangraal.com/library/rtc3.htm
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 25 2007, 11:34 AM)
rather than go out to mess with the brains of those poor "believers".;-)
Do you believe that the question itself is suspect? Or that the phraseology of the question is prejudicial?
Do you believe that the question itself is suspect? Or that the phraseology of the question is prejudicial?
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
PuckSR brings up the very valid argument of why the xian god does not perform miracles, even on rare occasions, which would be self-evident miracles. Specifically why does the xian god not heal amputees ever in the history of the religion.
GeneSplicer: Having no genuine desire to be the least bit antagonistic, I hope you don't mind if I ask you a question, rather than waste any more time with PuckSR. I recently cited some verses of scripture that certainly seem to indicate that Jesus did heal amputees at some point in the history of Christianity. My question to you is this:
Although you personally view the Bible as nothing more than myth, can you at least consider that this particular type of miracle is quite possibly/probably claimed to have occured during the time of Christ's incarnation(even though you question whether or not He ever even existed)?
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice, although I expect you'll use more words than just one in your response. If your answer to this question is "yes", then I have a simple follow-up question for you as well:
Would you consider changing your comment regarding the Christian God never healing amputees in the history of the religion?
Please let me know. Thanks.
GeneSplicer: Having no genuine desire to be the least bit antagonistic, I hope you don't mind if I ask you a question, rather than waste any more time with PuckSR. I recently cited some verses of scripture that certainly seem to indicate that Jesus did heal amputees at some point in the history of Christianity. My question to you is this:
Although you personally view the Bible as nothing more than myth, can you at least consider that this particular type of miracle is quite possibly/probably claimed to have occured during the time of Christ's incarnation(even though you question whether or not He ever even existed)?
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice, although I expect you'll use more words than just one in your response. If your answer to this question is "yes", then I have a simple follow-up question for you as well:
Would you consider changing your comment regarding the Christian God never healing amputees in the history of the religion?
Please let me know. Thanks.
QUOTE
Although you personally view the Bible as nothing more than myth, can you at least consider that this particular type of miracle is quite possibly/probably claimed to have occured during the time of Christ's incarnation(even though you question whether or not He ever even existed)?
Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: If we go on the premise that he existed and considering the claims in the bible, yes maimed would be applicable. But my question is not so much about Jesus but more specifically to God. Healings considered miraculous and attributed to God have occurred since the time of Jesus. Even if we go with the premise that Jesus did heal amputees described as maimed, it still does not address why no similar type of miracles have occurred since then or recorded by mankind. Even in modern times, we heard of miraculous healings but not of the maimed.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Although you personally view the Bible as nothing more than myth, can you at least consider that this particular type of miracle is quite possibly/probably claimed to have occured during the time of Christ's incarnation(even though you question whether or not He ever even existed)? |
Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: If we go on the premise that he existed and considering the claims in the bible, yes maimed would be applicable. But my question is not so much about Jesus but more specifically to God. Healings considered miraculous and attributed to God have occurred since the time of Jesus. Even if we go with the premise that Jesus did heal amputees described as maimed, it still does not address why no similar type of miracles have occurred since then or recorded by mankind. Even in modern times, we heard of miraculous healings but not of the maimed.
Would you consider changing your comment regarding the Christian God never healing amputees in the history of the religion?
I can see your point but I was not speaking of just Jesus or even specifically about him and this addresses another limitation. If we operating as a given that Jesus healed the maimed, why has it not been recorder that God did? Is God limited as I believe Robin claimed that he must work through a person in order to heal like this?
Edit.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
Short answer: Yes.
Thanks.
Thanks.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
Long Answer: If we go on the premise that he existed and considering the claims in the bible, yes maimed would be applicable. But my question is not so much about Jesus but more specifically to God. Healings considered miraculous and attributed to God have occurred since the time of Jesus. Even if we go with the premise that Jesus did heal amputees described as maimed, it still does not address why no similar type of miracles have occurred since then or recorded by mankind. Even in modern times, we heard of miraculous healings but not of the maimed.
I agree that it still does not address the topic of amputees being healed since the time of Christ. Actually, I was merely seeking to bring things back to modern times and to see why they don't(to my knowledge) presently match up with the professed past...a past that some stated was never professed to have existed until just recently.
I agree that it still does not address the topic of amputees being healed since the time of Christ. Actually, I was merely seeking to bring things back to modern times and to see why they don't(to my knowledge) presently match up with the professed past...a past that some stated was never professed to have existed until just recently.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
I can see your point but I was not speaking of just Jesus or even specifically about him and this addresses another limitation. If we operating as a given that Jesus healed the maimed, why has it not been recorder that God did? Is God limited as I believe Robin claimed that he must work through a person in order to heal like this?
Fair enough question. Unfortunately, it requires some time to answer and I'm on my way out for the day. I'll try to begin to address this question some time soon, although my schedule is about to go haywire. If I don't answer in the next two days, then I probably won't be answering it for about three weeks as I'll be travelling quite a bit in the near future. I'll talk to you more when I'm able.
Fair enough question. Unfortunately, it requires some time to answer and I'm on my way out for the day. I'll try to begin to address this question some time soon, although my schedule is about to go haywire. If I don't answer in the next two days, then I probably won't be answering it for about three weeks as I'll be travelling quite a bit in the near future. I'll talk to you more when I'm able.
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 24 2007, 04:20 PM)
@Mr. Parsons My teacup analogy is a classic counter-argument to your original statement that a "lack of evidence in support or in conflict" somehow dismisses the entire debate as inconclusive. The weight of evidence is predominantly on supporting your statement.....you basically argued that Jesus performed miracles, and that since some of them were not described in detail we could not make a conclusive statement that he had not performed the miracle. This is exactly the same as saying that since we have no evidence against something nor do we have any evidence for something, that we cannot make any assumption about the truth of the fact. Biblical history says that Jesus did MANY things, but never references healing an amputee. The "lame" typically is a reference to crippled individuals. I do not believe that I have ever heard the term applied to someone who is an amputee. When someone says they have a "lame" leg, they are typically referring to an injured limb, not a missing limb. This is all irrelevant though, since the "biblical history" does not say lame....I imagine it used a greek term with far more accuracy of description.
PuceSR ......"HUIT"!
NewGuy,
As always, no rush. Answer when you can.
As always, no rush. Answer when you can.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+ )
(SNIP) Is God limited as I believe Robin claimed that he must work through a person in order to heal like this? (SNoP)
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 25 2007, 12:47 PM)
Fair enough question. Unfortunately, it requires some time to answer and I'm on my way out for the day. I'll try to begin to address this question some time soon, although my schedule is about to go haywire. If I don't answer in the next two days, then I probably won't be answering it for about three weeks as I'll be travelling quite a bit in the near future. I'll talk to you more when I'm able.
If you would forgive me the idea of it, Miracles are performed in people all of the time, it is only when it is demonstrated that way, through another, that they appear as Miraculous in nature to others - observing - witnessing-experiencing the occurrence.
It is, after all, said to be; 'by your faith that you are healed'
If it happened-happens with no apparent evidence, 'no one' would believe it.....even the one who had experienced it would perhaps 'lose it' (their grip on the truth-experiential of it) in the doubting afforded of 'others' that arises in the re-telling of it, maybe not, but only if they are strong minded enough.
{EDIT} BTW Good Job! newguy {/EDIT}
It is, after all, said to be; 'by your faith that you are healed'
If it happened-happens with no apparent evidence, 'no one' would believe it.....even the one who had experienced it would perhaps 'lose it' (their grip on the truth-experiential of it) in the doubting afforded of 'others' that arises in the re-telling of it, maybe not, but only if they are strong minded enough.
{EDIT} BTW Good Job! newguy
{/EDIT}
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 25 2007, 08:20 AM)
to 'back up' your assertion you need show where (I) have actually typed out - posted a response to a Question
That may be a problem, as I haven't read a straight answer from Mr RP in... well, ever.
That may be a problem, as I haven't read a straight answer from Mr RP in... well, ever.
OMG! 
You are SO gonna get a negative mister! 
(Sorry, I was stuck in my Mr. Parsons impression for a moment).
You are SO gonna get a negative mister! (Sorry, I was stuck in my Mr. Parsons impression for a moment).
QUOTE (gmilam+Jul 25 2007, 03:46 PM)
That may be a problem, as I haven't read a straight answer from Mr RP in... well, ever.
Begs the question: you can read....??
Too late Greeniesliker....
Begs the question: you can read....??
Too late Greeniesliker....
QUOTE (Mr. Parsons referencing PuckSR+)
@Mr. Parsons My teacup analogy is a classic counter-argument to your original statement that a "lack of evidence in support or in conflict" somehow dismisses the entire debate as inconclusive. The weight of evidence is predominantly on supporting your statement.....you basically argued that Jesus performed miracles, and that since some of them were not described in detail we could not make a conclusive statement that he had not performed the miracle. This is exactly the same as saying that since we have no evidence against something nor do we have any evidence for something, that we cannot make any assumption about the truth of the fact. Biblical history says that Jesus did MANY things, but never references healing an amputee. The "lame" typically is a reference to crippled individuals. I do not believe that I have ever heard the term applied to someone who is an amputee. When someone says they have a "lame" leg, they are typically referring to an injured limb, not a missing limb. This is all irrelevant though, since the "biblical history" does not say lame....I imagine it used a greek term with far more accuracy of description.
Yeah, so apparently I was incorrect about 1 thing. Apparently the bible does make two passing references to Jesus healing the "maimed" and making them whole....
Mr. Parsons, you on the other hand were proven wrong....since:
1) Newguy did show that the term "lame" was not applied to amputees
2) A distinct and more accurate word for amputees did exist
3) There were apparently amputees at the time....
So....I missed the fact that the bible does make passing references to the miracle....while you were proven wrong in 3 of your repeated assumptions. Your argument for "lame"="amputees" was shown to be totally wrong.
Yeah, so apparently I was incorrect about 1 thing. Apparently the bible does make two passing references to Jesus healing the "maimed" and making them whole....
Mr. Parsons, you on the other hand were proven wrong....since:
1) Newguy did show that the term "lame" was not applied to amputees
2) A distinct and more accurate word for amputees did exist
3) There were apparently amputees at the time....
So....I missed the fact that the bible does make passing references to the miracle....while you were proven wrong in 3 of your repeated assumptions. Your argument for "lame"="amputees" was shown to be totally wrong.
By your assumption. Theist and the faithful do not say it’s their faith that made them well. I have heard claims made that it may be due to their faith that God healed them, but their faith is not seen nor claimed to be the source of the “miracle”.
*********************
Well I never take anyone's word for stuff like that, even if it originally triggered off an interest. I think that one can tap into all of that for themselves.
>>>>>Now you are just being ridiculous and making a strawman argument. Never once did I claim that the limb would be resurrected and reattached. Regeneration would be applicable as what is expected by the faithful to happen internally. And again, these are the claims and outlooks of the faithful, not mine.
**********************
Well you did mention things like a toe didn't you? Regeneration is a good point, and who is to say that conscioussness won't lead to that potential appearing through the imagination of man?
>>>>So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
**********************
No I didn't mean it that way. You can point out what you wish, freedom is on your side. There are all sorts of large claims that can be faced. Sorry, but to me anyway, this amputee debate is , as always, missing the opportunity for the deeper aspects of how consciousness plays a role within the potentials that humans possess. Some creatures grow back limbs naturally, isn't that right? And we are evolved from these creatures right? And progress is made in genetics to the point we understand what gets switched on asnd what gets switched off from time to time.
And yeah, one could spend their time trying to bring down old myths by reasoned arguments. But you say further on that it probably won't convince these people anyway. I don't think it may be that different hoping to convince the "evolution and life is an accident" believers that a universe and evolution within it is governed by consciousness. In someways one can just get on and attempt to make progress in that direction. The more progress made in unravelling the nature of consciousness the better.
>>>>>>>No, I mean it does not to any rational person seeking to treat disease as something more tangible than that stated by the like of new age medicine, holistic healers and the like. This would include other narrow minded people like the majority of the medical community. There is one thing to say about being too clinical and not recognizing a person’s emotional state during and illness and another to try to link their emotional state to their disease as is done with new age medical nonsense.
*********************
Well that is very true. And I do not consder myself a new ager in the ways I see so often on this internet. Jumping on the holistric type bandwagon does my brain in too. Especially when I get these annoying spam emails about ones very own crop circle ornament at a special price, or this really annoying one about channelled alien messages or miracle medicine. But there is more to the idea of disharmony existing in a body than the guys and girls who see a quick buck in it. I study the findings of peopel like Bohr, and the periodic table , and I am not the only rational person who understands that atoms have their frequencies, or that electrons orbit around a nucleus at specific frequencies, or that the dna strands have their own frequencies. Coupling that with the knowledge of harmonious ratios and disharmonious ratios evident in music, and the beleif in consciousness, I really don't mind being one of many making the connection to disease along the lines of harmony meaning well being, and disharmony causing illnesses. Even extending that to everyday life within a family, we know how stress can be caused by disharmony. We know that nations can be disharmonious. Working towards gaining a deeper understanding of cells and their relationships according to frequencies is not always new age crap. It has been something that goes back a little bit further than that, and much further than the modern scientific theories, which one may equally claim are responsible for a fair bit of disharmony. It is the modern scientific world that has contributed too in placing the world on a fairly rocky ride. It's denial of things like consciousness in certain areas has helped spawn its fair share of people who do not need a religious reason to go mug an old lady, or spawn a selfish little perosn who doesn't understand their position within nature, preferring some concrete jungle mentality where everything he consumes means nothing to him and the effects he may have on nature. It's time to balance out the myths and the "accidents". Sorry, this is my "unlearned" way of writing, not emotionally charged.:-)
>>>Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
*******************
Really? that's a shame. Energy comes from both harmony and disharmony. Negative energy and positive energy. However, the source of energetic flows are governed once again by conscious awareness, and marrying the positive/negative aspects of it is achievable. This is what eighteen years of my work has been about, and what I hope will help in the understanding of sound itself. New knowledge, not new agers.
>>You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims.
*********************
Perhaps far better than I do. As I say I never place myself under the new age label.
>>>Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong?
**********************
***???!!! Why do you get the impression I am about new age remedies and or a new age healing technique?? Acupunture a new age thing is it? Well, when I had my sessions it was many years ago, and I didn't know there was this "new age" world out there until I saw it scattered about the internet in 2000. So, to answer what you are putting forward, I treat it with the same suspicion as yourself I'm sure. And I would say so, without fearing any ego I might hurt. But there is a basis for working toward a better understanding of things like the cell structures, dna , atomic structures etc etc. And , yes, harmony has a place. It isn 't a "hippy" concept, it has a scientific understanding behind it that goes back for centuries. Now we know our bodies and our organs have specific frequencies, and even how to ascertain those frequencies, then there is nothing quacky about expecting harmony to regulate the flow of healthy cells, for example.
>>>>Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means).
****************************
You just claimed not to know what I mean about it, so why does it smack of anything at all? You're quite over-assumptious.:-) On the basis of atoms having specific frequencies, and on the basis that molecules are made up of atoms (quarks and all), and on the basis that molecules combine to form cells and structures, and on established understanding about the laws of harmony, how it has an attracticve force, and disharmony has a dispersive force, it is an interesting field to study because, just like certain frequencies are already used in attempting to heal diseases, or cure sewage, further research may lead to better methods. I add to that the consciousness aspect as playing a key role in the healing process. Awareness of something gives it power. Knowing what something is aids in the use of it. It empwers people to know what their body is, and even though one likes to lacerate the conscious aspect in nature, not everyone buys that sort of rubbish.
Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
***********************
Your beliefs are based on a heck of a lot of faith by the sounds of it, actually.:-)
>>Again, it is asking a legitimate question based upon the claims of the faithfull or supporters of the associated religion. So if someone makes a factual claim like their god performs miracles of healing that to question these claims is wrong? Pointing out inconsistencies and such an obvious limitation is wrong? That leads to the spread of ignorance is applied generally.
******************
I wouldn't dream of asking you to stop. I just said it is, to some, a silly question in the first place. But perfectly understandable too that it would be asked. God's achilles heal to those that try to defend an untenable kinda creator.
>>>>>>>What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported?
*******************
there are hundred of laws of harmony. Anyone into music will know plenty. As far as nature is concerned, everything has a frequency, oscillates,
binds or repels, all governed by knowable harmonic laws. I will, with your permission, get into a few with you, a few at a time.:-)
I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation.
******************
Hmmmmm guru eh? I don't recall Rusell being a "guru", but I do recall his scientifc endevours. And I am not that suprised you make such a statement. Here is a small fraction on Russell
.....Walter Russell presented to the world new theories such as the fundamental principles of energy dynamics, the nature of matter and the progression of the evolution of matter, and the depiction of the universe as a continuously changing, creating effort sustained by the systematic work effort of the energy of light which all matter is composed. His depictions of universal laws was expansive enough to be considered a complete nonstandard cosmology. Today his works are known as Russelian science.
Russell portrayed the principles of the unity of universal law in a way that brought many highly considered theories into direct conflict, or rather incompleteness, such as some of the fundamental principles derived by Newton. He presented a new view of the periodic table of elements that led him to the prediction of the existence of plutonium which was still unknown to mankind and soon after discovered, (as well as elements which are still unknown to mankind but have their mathematical placement in his charts) as well as the creation of heavy water which is required for the process of releasing nuclear energy. Russell’s periodic table has not however been adopted fully despite these discoveries, as it indeed defies a great deal of current scientific thought, primarily the nature of the evolution of matter and the unified wavelength principle on which his table is based............
So you don't accept his ideas and his cliam that there is a consciousness to the universe. That's ok. you'll find him maintain his scientific integrity throughout his writings.
>>>>Meaning what about those who question the religious claims made?
Not exactly. You can question all you like, honestly.:-) I enjoy questioning your scientifically verifiable claims after all, and I'm not religious, so there are similarities there that we do enjoy a good questioning session. You and those that adhere to an old book, to me, are like two sides of the same coin that's all. Both missing the point of consciousness and the role we play in nature.
>>>>>Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
************************
Well count me out of that. Plus, again you misunderstood. I left the belief systems that churches tried to pin me down with because I saw the flaws. It didn't make me an athiest, becuase I left established religion behind for other reasons than my doubt that there is a creative process in nature.
>>>>And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
*******************
That's fair enough. My time is spent in a similar manner too, but I include in that fold the scientists that want to promote the "accident" of life, as well as misinformed religiosity. The freedom to persue science is fundamental. It was rightfully reestablished after centuiries of church suppression. I'm interested in persuing the science that some scietists wish to suppress and say isn't science, and that will remove the doubt of a living consciousness at the heart of nature. I'm quite passionate about it, becuase I don't believe it is just the false religious doctrines that lead people astray.
>>>Constructive as in not asking questions that point out flaws in someone’s questionable or baseless claims?
*******************
No, gotta be done, I agree.:-) Do you mean the baseless claims regarding "miracles". I said from the start I don't believe in miracles. I do believe in the internal cosmic self, and that life and nature is consciousness.
>>>>You may seek to accept anecdotally any and all claims but I choose to rely upon something more tangible and verifiable.
******************
Is that right, your beliefs are more tangible and verifiable? And I accept things anecdottally. You can certianly believe that if you wish, as you can do whatever you wish whenever you wish as far as I'm concerned. You chose to see my statement of "tit for tat" as some kind of restriction on what you could do. As it is a place to chat, I can say what I want as well.
I'll tell you more about the "harmonious flows" tommorrow if you like ...man..:-) Sorry to make this such a long post.:-)
*********************
Well I never take anyone's word for stuff like that, even if it originally triggered off an interest. I think that one can tap into all of that for themselves.
>>>>>Now you are just being ridiculous and making a strawman argument. Never once did I claim that the limb would be resurrected and reattached. Regeneration would be applicable as what is expected by the faithful to happen internally. And again, these are the claims and outlooks of the faithful, not mine.
**********************
Well you did mention things like a toe didn't you? Regeneration is a good point, and who is to say that conscioussness won't lead to that potential appearing through the imagination of man?
>>>>So pointing out a major problem and contradiction in something professed as fact is a “weapon”? If such a large part of society makes such claims and a large part of that group seeks to rule the rest by the claims, then examination of the claims is not a weapon. Rational examination is just that. There is no need to summarily castigate everyone who questions these claims or points out the inconsistencies.
**********************
No I didn't mean it that way. You can point out what you wish, freedom is on your side. There are all sorts of large claims that can be faced. Sorry, but to me anyway, this amputee debate is , as always, missing the opportunity for the deeper aspects of how consciousness plays a role within the potentials that humans possess. Some creatures grow back limbs naturally, isn't that right? And we are evolved from these creatures right? And progress is made in genetics to the point we understand what gets switched on asnd what gets switched off from time to time.
And yeah, one could spend their time trying to bring down old myths by reasoned arguments. But you say further on that it probably won't convince these people anyway. I don't think it may be that different hoping to convince the "evolution and life is an accident" believers that a universe and evolution within it is governed by consciousness. In someways one can just get on and attempt to make progress in that direction. The more progress made in unravelling the nature of consciousness the better.
>>>>>>>No, I mean it does not to any rational person seeking to treat disease as something more tangible than that stated by the like of new age medicine, holistic healers and the like. This would include other narrow minded people like the majority of the medical community. There is one thing to say about being too clinical and not recognizing a person’s emotional state during and illness and another to try to link their emotional state to their disease as is done with new age medical nonsense.
*********************
Well that is very true. And I do not consder myself a new ager in the ways I see so often on this internet. Jumping on the holistric type bandwagon does my brain in too. Especially when I get these annoying spam emails about ones very own crop circle ornament at a special price, or this really annoying one about channelled alien messages or miracle medicine. But there is more to the idea of disharmony existing in a body than the guys and girls who see a quick buck in it. I study the findings of peopel like Bohr, and the periodic table , and I am not the only rational person who understands that atoms have their frequencies, or that electrons orbit around a nucleus at specific frequencies, or that the dna strands have their own frequencies. Coupling that with the knowledge of harmonious ratios and disharmonious ratios evident in music, and the beleif in consciousness, I really don't mind being one of many making the connection to disease along the lines of harmony meaning well being, and disharmony causing illnesses. Even extending that to everyday life within a family, we know how stress can be caused by disharmony. We know that nations can be disharmonious. Working towards gaining a deeper understanding of cells and their relationships according to frequencies is not always new age crap. It has been something that goes back a little bit further than that, and much further than the modern scientific theories, which one may equally claim are responsible for a fair bit of disharmony. It is the modern scientific world that has contributed too in placing the world on a fairly rocky ride. It's denial of things like consciousness in certain areas has helped spawn its fair share of people who do not need a religious reason to go mug an old lady, or spawn a selfish little perosn who doesn't understand their position within nature, preferring some concrete jungle mentality where everything he consumes means nothing to him and the effects he may have on nature. It's time to balance out the myths and the "accidents". Sorry, this is my "unlearned" way of writing, not emotionally charged.:-)
>>>Prime example of new age nonsense. Harmonious flows of what in the body? Today, it is called generically “energy”, chi or the often mentioned life force.
*******************
Really? that's a shame. Energy comes from both harmony and disharmony. Negative energy and positive energy. However, the source of energetic flows are governed once again by conscious awareness, and marrying the positive/negative aspects of it is achievable. This is what eighteen years of my work has been about, and what I hope will help in the understanding of sound itself. New knowledge, not new agers.
>>You assume I do not understand the new age terminology or claims.
*********************
Perhaps far better than I do. As I say I never place myself under the new age label.
>>>Once you understand something, you still do not judge? So if you found out that after several medical investigations into a particular claimed holistic or new age healing technique or treatment that there was absolutely no medical benefit or treatment of anything by the technique or treatment that mentioning this would be to judge it and that doing so is wrong?
**********************
***???!!! Why do you get the impression I am about new age remedies and or a new age healing technique?? Acupunture a new age thing is it? Well, when I had my sessions it was many years ago, and I didn't know there was this "new age" world out there until I saw it scattered about the internet in 2000. So, to answer what you are putting forward, I treat it with the same suspicion as yourself I'm sure. And I would say so, without fearing any ego I might hurt. But there is a basis for working toward a better understanding of things like the cell structures, dna , atomic structures etc etc. And , yes, harmony has a place. It isn 't a "hippy" concept, it has a scientific understanding behind it that goes back for centuries. Now we know our bodies and our organs have specific frequencies, and even how to ascertain those frequencies, then there is nothing quacky about expecting harmony to regulate the flow of healthy cells, for example.
>>>>Consciousness and the mind are one thing, but you keep referring to “harmonious flows”. This again smack of new age woowoo (see James Randy if you question what that means).
****************************
You just claimed not to know what I mean about it, so why does it smack of anything at all? You're quite over-assumptious.:-) On the basis of atoms having specific frequencies, and on the basis that molecules are made up of atoms (quarks and all), and on the basis that molecules combine to form cells and structures, and on established understanding about the laws of harmony, how it has an attracticve force, and disharmony has a dispersive force, it is an interesting field to study because, just like certain frequencies are already used in attempting to heal diseases, or cure sewage, further research may lead to better methods. I add to that the consciousness aspect as playing a key role in the healing process. Awareness of something gives it power. Knowing what something is aids in the use of it. It empwers people to know what their body is, and even though one likes to lacerate the conscious aspect in nature, not everyone buys that sort of rubbish.
Yes, my beliefs are my own, but I can comfortably state that my beliefs are not based upon faith but what science has revealed to be verifiable and proven. Holistic healing and new age claims have yet to live up to that level of scrutiny.
***********************
Your beliefs are based on a heck of a lot of faith by the sounds of it, actually.:-)
>>Again, it is asking a legitimate question based upon the claims of the faithfull or supporters of the associated religion. So if someone makes a factual claim like their god performs miracles of healing that to question these claims is wrong? Pointing out inconsistencies and such an obvious limitation is wrong? That leads to the spread of ignorance is applied generally.
******************
I wouldn't dream of asking you to stop. I just said it is, to some, a silly question in the first place. But perfectly understandable too that it would be asked. God's achilles heal to those that try to defend an untenable kinda creator.
>>>>>>>What laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported?
*******************
there are hundred of laws of harmony. Anyone into music will know plenty. As far as nature is concerned, everything has a frequency, oscillates,
binds or repels, all governed by knowable harmonic laws. I will, with your permission, get into a few with you, a few at a time.:-)
I need not read every book produced by every new age guru out there to be able to question the claims made, most of which have already been addresses by proper scientific investigation.
******************
Hmmmmm guru eh? I don't recall Rusell being a "guru", but I do recall his scientifc endevours. And I am not that suprised you make such a statement. Here is a small fraction on Russell
.....Walter Russell presented to the world new theories such as the fundamental principles of energy dynamics, the nature of matter and the progression of the evolution of matter, and the depiction of the universe as a continuously changing, creating effort sustained by the systematic work effort of the energy of light which all matter is composed. His depictions of universal laws was expansive enough to be considered a complete nonstandard cosmology. Today his works are known as Russelian science.
Russell portrayed the principles of the unity of universal law in a way that brought many highly considered theories into direct conflict, or rather incompleteness, such as some of the fundamental principles derived by Newton. He presented a new view of the periodic table of elements that led him to the prediction of the existence of plutonium which was still unknown to mankind and soon after discovered, (as well as elements which are still unknown to mankind but have their mathematical placement in his charts) as well as the creation of heavy water which is required for the process of releasing nuclear energy. Russell’s periodic table has not however been adopted fully despite these discoveries, as it indeed defies a great deal of current scientific thought, primarily the nature of the evolution of matter and the unified wavelength principle on which his table is based............
So you don't accept his ideas and his cliam that there is a consciousness to the universe. That's ok. you'll find him maintain his scientific integrity throughout his writings.
>>>>Meaning what about those who question the religious claims made?
Not exactly. You can question all you like, honestly.:-) I enjoy questioning your scientifically verifiable claims after all, and I'm not religious, so there are similarities there that we do enjoy a good questioning session. You and those that adhere to an old book, to me, are like two sides of the same coin that's all. Both missing the point of consciousness and the role we play in nature.
>>>>>Then it should be simple for you to illustrate my misunderstandings. It is a commonly reoccurring accusation that those who question and point out the flaws in the religion and religious claims of fact somehow either are just ignorant of that religion or are dismissed because they are not part of that religion. The latter is amusing since many xians level that charge at atheist who were raised in the xian faith and left it due to their knowledge of it.
************************
Well count me out of that. Plus, again you misunderstood. I left the belief systems that churches tried to pin me down with because I saw the flaws. It didn't make me an athiest, becuase I left established religion behind for other reasons than my doubt that there is a creative process in nature.
>>>>And it is my time to waste. I’m sure pointing out the ridiculous and nonsensical claim made by the various religions will not sway the devout followers, but they still are legitimate question and interest of debate especially when the faithful are claiming that this is how the universe works. More important is when the faithful seek to limit freedom and the pursuit of science due to these views. So I disagree that such arguments are a waste of time.
*******************
That's fair enough. My time is spent in a similar manner too, but I include in that fold the scientists that want to promote the "accident" of life, as well as misinformed religiosity. The freedom to persue science is fundamental. It was rightfully reestablished after centuiries of church suppression. I'm interested in persuing the science that some scietists wish to suppress and say isn't science, and that will remove the doubt of a living consciousness at the heart of nature. I'm quite passionate about it, becuase I don't believe it is just the false religious doctrines that lead people astray.
>>>Constructive as in not asking questions that point out flaws in someone’s questionable or baseless claims?
*******************
No, gotta be done, I agree.:-) Do you mean the baseless claims regarding "miracles". I said from the start I don't believe in miracles. I do believe in the internal cosmic self, and that life and nature is consciousness.
>>>>You may seek to accept anecdotally any and all claims but I choose to rely upon something more tangible and verifiable.
******************
Is that right, your beliefs are more tangible and verifiable? And I accept things anecdottally. You can certianly believe that if you wish, as you can do whatever you wish whenever you wish as far as I'm concerned. You chose to see my statement of "tit for tat" as some kind of restriction on what you could do. As it is a place to chat, I can say what I want as well.
I'll tell you more about the "harmonious flows" tommorrow if you like ...man..:-) Sorry to make this such a long post.:-)
Here's some quakiness for ya all..:-))
Prof. Dr. med. G. Hildebrandt
is one of the fathers of chrono-medicine, and is renowned worldwide as a leading medical authority in the fields of chrono-biology, balneology, medical climatology and physical medicine.
He founded the European Society for Chronobiology and was the vice-president of the International Society for Chronobiology for many years.
He also founded the L.R. Grote-Institute for Physiotherapy and Rehabilitation in Bad Berleburg, as well as the Institute for Research in connection with medical treatment in Bad Wildungen.
He was the director of the School of Work Physiology and Rehabilitation Research at the Marburg University until he became an emeritus professor.
Professor Hildebrandt continued his work as an author and co-author respectively, as well as being the publisher of various medical standard works such as “Balneology and Medical Climatology”, “Physical Medicine”, “Chronobiology in Naturopathy” and “Handbook on Mineral Spring Water Drinking Treatments”.
Biological Rhythms in Humans
and their Counterparts in Music
Prof. Dr. med.
Gunther Hildebrandt
Explanations on the following report:
In his work “Biological Rhythms in Humans and their Counterparts in Music” Prof. Dr. med. Gunther Hildebrandt, one of the fathers of chronomedicine and long-standing director of the School of Work Physiology and Rehabilitation Research at Marburg University shows how the rhythmical processes in a healthy human organism follow the harmonic laws of nature and, in the truest sense of the word, turn it into a music physiology.
Illustration 1 shows a spectrum of the main types of rhythmical functions which is arranged according to the periodic duration (logarithmically). It includes approx. 2 x 12 octaves, from approx. one millisecond to an order of one year. The series of given functions show that with an increasing periodic duration, the complexity of the rhythms grow, from the cellular rhythms via the tissue and organ rhythms to the rhythms of complex systems, and finally to those which include the entire organism and even imply beyond (reproduction and population rhythms). More and more partial functions are put together for joint action, so that a hierarchical structure exists, determining, in what way the longer wave functions also include the shorter ones in their rhythm.
http://www.digipharm.com/01/07_Articles/07...ic_duration.php
In contrast, the rhythms of the metabolic system can no longer be modulated in their frequency. On the contrary, each functional area has a series of different pre-formed frequency bands which, according to the demands on performance, are utilized in a rapidly changing manner. All these frequency bands, however, relate to each other in simple whole numbered frequencies, and are so subject to a harmonic-musical order.
The rhythm of the stomach peristalsis, for instance, with its wave interval of approx. 20 seconds has a frequency ratio of 3:1 compared to the one-minute basic rhythm of the fundus musculature of the stomach and the contraction rhythm of the duodenum a ratio of 4:1 compared to the rhythm of the stomach peristalsis.
An isolated piece of smooth intestinal musculature shows spontaneous-rhythmic contractions whose periodic duration constantly changes in whole numbered jumps (illustration 8). There are probably musical-harmonic time structures embodied in each individual cell which correspond to the harmonic interval proportions.
http://www.digipharm.com/01/07_Articles/07...lar_rhythms.php
And if it is now true – what all great thinkers amongst mankind have claimed and what more recent studies have indicated – that the natural laws of harmony of the microcosm of music are identical to those of biological life, then our scientific musical knowledge about the natural regeneration processes in the microcosm of music could open up the possibility for us to activate and strengthen the natural healing powers inherent in living organisms – and those investigations, about which Professor Reznikov will be reporting, lend weight to this assumption.
Prof. Dr. med. A. Reznikov
Head of the Laboratory
for Neurohormonal Control
of Human Reproduction at the Ukraine Academy of Sciences in Kiev
Interview with Prof. Reznikov, following his lecture of the Medical Faculty of the University of Heidelberg:
The application of Medical Resonance Therapy Music for in-patient and out-patient treatment
As long as two and a half thousand years ago, the learned physician, mathematician and musicologist Pythagoras discovered that the laws of harmony of music are the same as those in all living beings. Can then music which strictly follows these natural laws of harmony help the human body? Could it not be a real form of therapy? Music was used in such a way by the old high civilizations, and the Bible also describes how David used music to heal King Saul.
In recent times, the classical composer Peter Huebner, in particular, has studied the natural laws of harmony of music and, urged by leading medical professors, has begun to tap the potential of naturally structured music for healing purposes. In the course of his work, he has developed Medical Resonance Therapy Music, music which orients itself on the natural laws of harmony of the microcosm of music and which is composed in such a way that it is able to strengthen people’s inner health-promoting powers.
One of the health professionals currently studying the healing effects this music has on people is Professor Dr. Alexander Reznikov from the Research Institute for Endocrinology and Metabolism at the Academy of Sciences in Kiev.
Question: What prompted you to start looking into the effects music has on people?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: It was a coincidence really – when, about three years ago, I met the composer Peter Huebner at a scientific event at the University of Tuebingen. He gave a very interesting lecture to researchers from all over the world about the effects Medical Resonance Therapy Music has on people in respect of physiological parameters: music for the focused harmonization of the processes within the human body. For me and many of my colleagues, this was a very remarkable thesis. The idea of treating illnesses naturally with music, that is using an unconventional method, was also very exciting and appealing. Therefore, I started my studies, above all to enable me to form an objective opinion about the effects of music.
Question: What kind of studies are these?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: We are looking at different criteria of various physiological functions. This particularly concerns the secretion of several of the body’s own hormones, above all the stress hormones in the broadest sense. As well as this, we are looking at various forms of electrical activity and other special parameters. We also ask our patients about their subjective feelings.
Question: What type of music have you been working with so far?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: In the course of our studies, we have been looking after three groups of patients. One group listened to Peter Huebner’s Medical Resonance Therapy Music, the second to restful music by Mozart and the third group heard no music at all.
One must also be aware that Medical Resonance Therapy Music® by the composer Peter Huebner is the first and, to date, the only music that has been specially composed for medical purposes and which follows in its composition the natural laws of harmony of the microcosm of music.
Question: Was it also possible to take account of individual preferences in terms of musical taste?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: No, as this is not the question. The music should activate physiological effects and health-promoting processes in the body. Therefore, we use music with which there has been proven and repeatable success. Even if someone is able to relax – subjectively – by listening to his favorite music: objectively these effects are still a long way off occurring.
And interestingly, with Peter Huebner’s Medical Resonance Therapy Music the result was not dependent on the musical taste of the experimental subjects concerned. Even when they were not keen on the music, the measurable physical reactions were nevertheless positive – which confirms the resonance reinforcement of people’s inner health-promoting powers brought about by this music.
Question: What results have your studies produced?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: We were able to observe that several parameters of the vegetative nervous system underwent change under the influence of Huebner’s Medical Resonance Therapy Music. For example, the hormone beta-endorphin, the body’s own morphine, comes close to normal status as a result of the music treatment. Thus, this music has a harmonizing effect.
Headaches, for instance, got better, sleep became deeper and the patients simply felt better as a result of this therapy with the music. In other patients, there were improvements in problems like forgetfulness, lack of orientation, nervousness and lack of concentration.
More here:
http://www.digipharm.com/01/07_Articles/08...nic_Therapy.php
Prof. Dr. med. G. Hildebrandt
is one of the fathers of chrono-medicine, and is renowned worldwide as a leading medical authority in the fields of chrono-biology, balneology, medical climatology and physical medicine.
He founded the European Society for Chronobiology and was the vice-president of the International Society for Chronobiology for many years.
He also founded the L.R. Grote-Institute for Physiotherapy and Rehabilitation in Bad Berleburg, as well as the Institute for Research in connection with medical treatment in Bad Wildungen.
He was the director of the School of Work Physiology and Rehabilitation Research at the Marburg University until he became an emeritus professor.
Professor Hildebrandt continued his work as an author and co-author respectively, as well as being the publisher of various medical standard works such as “Balneology and Medical Climatology”, “Physical Medicine”, “Chronobiology in Naturopathy” and “Handbook on Mineral Spring Water Drinking Treatments”.
Biological Rhythms in Humans
and their Counterparts in Music
Prof. Dr. med.
Gunther Hildebrandt
Explanations on the following report:
In his work “Biological Rhythms in Humans and their Counterparts in Music” Prof. Dr. med. Gunther Hildebrandt, one of the fathers of chronomedicine and long-standing director of the School of Work Physiology and Rehabilitation Research at Marburg University shows how the rhythmical processes in a healthy human organism follow the harmonic laws of nature and, in the truest sense of the word, turn it into a music physiology.
Illustration 1 shows a spectrum of the main types of rhythmical functions which is arranged according to the periodic duration (logarithmically). It includes approx. 2 x 12 octaves, from approx. one millisecond to an order of one year. The series of given functions show that with an increasing periodic duration, the complexity of the rhythms grow, from the cellular rhythms via the tissue and organ rhythms to the rhythms of complex systems, and finally to those which include the entire organism and even imply beyond (reproduction and population rhythms). More and more partial functions are put together for joint action, so that a hierarchical structure exists, determining, in what way the longer wave functions also include the shorter ones in their rhythm.
http://www.digipharm.com/01/07_Articles/07...ic_duration.php
In contrast, the rhythms of the metabolic system can no longer be modulated in their frequency. On the contrary, each functional area has a series of different pre-formed frequency bands which, according to the demands on performance, are utilized in a rapidly changing manner. All these frequency bands, however, relate to each other in simple whole numbered frequencies, and are so subject to a harmonic-musical order.
The rhythm of the stomach peristalsis, for instance, with its wave interval of approx. 20 seconds has a frequency ratio of 3:1 compared to the one-minute basic rhythm of the fundus musculature of the stomach and the contraction rhythm of the duodenum a ratio of 4:1 compared to the rhythm of the stomach peristalsis.
An isolated piece of smooth intestinal musculature shows spontaneous-rhythmic contractions whose periodic duration constantly changes in whole numbered jumps (illustration 8). There are probably musical-harmonic time structures embodied in each individual cell which correspond to the harmonic interval proportions.
http://www.digipharm.com/01/07_Articles/07...lar_rhythms.php
And if it is now true – what all great thinkers amongst mankind have claimed and what more recent studies have indicated – that the natural laws of harmony of the microcosm of music are identical to those of biological life, then our scientific musical knowledge about the natural regeneration processes in the microcosm of music could open up the possibility for us to activate and strengthen the natural healing powers inherent in living organisms – and those investigations, about which Professor Reznikov will be reporting, lend weight to this assumption.
Prof. Dr. med. A. Reznikov
Head of the Laboratory
for Neurohormonal Control
of Human Reproduction at the Ukraine Academy of Sciences in Kiev
Interview with Prof. Reznikov, following his lecture of the Medical Faculty of the University of Heidelberg:
The application of Medical Resonance Therapy Music for in-patient and out-patient treatment
As long as two and a half thousand years ago, the learned physician, mathematician and musicologist Pythagoras discovered that the laws of harmony of music are the same as those in all living beings. Can then music which strictly follows these natural laws of harmony help the human body? Could it not be a real form of therapy? Music was used in such a way by the old high civilizations, and the Bible also describes how David used music to heal King Saul.
In recent times, the classical composer Peter Huebner, in particular, has studied the natural laws of harmony of music and, urged by leading medical professors, has begun to tap the potential of naturally structured music for healing purposes. In the course of his work, he has developed Medical Resonance Therapy Music, music which orients itself on the natural laws of harmony of the microcosm of music and which is composed in such a way that it is able to strengthen people’s inner health-promoting powers.
One of the health professionals currently studying the healing effects this music has on people is Professor Dr. Alexander Reznikov from the Research Institute for Endocrinology and Metabolism at the Academy of Sciences in Kiev.
Question: What prompted you to start looking into the effects music has on people?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: It was a coincidence really – when, about three years ago, I met the composer Peter Huebner at a scientific event at the University of Tuebingen. He gave a very interesting lecture to researchers from all over the world about the effects Medical Resonance Therapy Music has on people in respect of physiological parameters: music for the focused harmonization of the processes within the human body. For me and many of my colleagues, this was a very remarkable thesis. The idea of treating illnesses naturally with music, that is using an unconventional method, was also very exciting and appealing. Therefore, I started my studies, above all to enable me to form an objective opinion about the effects of music.
Question: What kind of studies are these?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: We are looking at different criteria of various physiological functions. This particularly concerns the secretion of several of the body’s own hormones, above all the stress hormones in the broadest sense. As well as this, we are looking at various forms of electrical activity and other special parameters. We also ask our patients about their subjective feelings.
Question: What type of music have you been working with so far?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: In the course of our studies, we have been looking after three groups of patients. One group listened to Peter Huebner’s Medical Resonance Therapy Music, the second to restful music by Mozart and the third group heard no music at all.
One must also be aware that Medical Resonance Therapy Music® by the composer Peter Huebner is the first and, to date, the only music that has been specially composed for medical purposes and which follows in its composition the natural laws of harmony of the microcosm of music.
Question: Was it also possible to take account of individual preferences in terms of musical taste?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: No, as this is not the question. The music should activate physiological effects and health-promoting processes in the body. Therefore, we use music with which there has been proven and repeatable success. Even if someone is able to relax – subjectively – by listening to his favorite music: objectively these effects are still a long way off occurring.
And interestingly, with Peter Huebner’s Medical Resonance Therapy Music the result was not dependent on the musical taste of the experimental subjects concerned. Even when they were not keen on the music, the measurable physical reactions were nevertheless positive – which confirms the resonance reinforcement of people’s inner health-promoting powers brought about by this music.
Question: What results have your studies produced?
Prof. Dr. med. Reznikov: We were able to observe that several parameters of the vegetative nervous system underwent change under the influence of Huebner’s Medical Resonance Therapy Music. For example, the hormone beta-endorphin, the body’s own morphine, comes close to normal status as a result of the music treatment. Thus, this music has a harmonizing effect.
Headaches, for instance, got better, sleep became deeper and the patients simply felt better as a result of this therapy with the music. In other patients, there were improvements in problems like forgetfulness, lack of orientation, nervousness and lack of concentration.
More here:
http://www.digipharm.com/01/07_Articles/08...nic_Therapy.php
Here is some name twistings in your service
Ms Goblin Pursemans
Fr Bumblin Morons
Mr Fartin Arsens
Ms Goblin Pursemans
Fr Bumblin Morons
Mr Fartin Arsens
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 04:26 PM)
Yeah, so apparently I was incorrect about 1 thing.
no, Way more than one
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 04:26 PM)
Apparently the bible does make two passing references to Jesus healing the "maimed" and making them whole....
Funny too as you have previously mentioned having done biblical studies (?) and (I) had asked if there was any biblical record or reference...
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 04:26 PM)
Mr. Parsons, you on the other hand were proven wrong....since:
1) Newguy did show that the term "lame" was not applied to amputees
(I) only looked for a Potential Connection, never asserted anything close to what your inferring.
2) A distinct and more accurate word for amputees did exist
How does that make me wrong? as (I) never said, nor inferred one didn't
3) There were apparently amputees at the time....
And As (I) had repetitively asked you two twits was there any evidence of it, now we know, but not as any result of anything either of you two twits did.
1) Newguy did show that the term "lame" was not applied to amputees
(I) only looked for a Potential Connection, never asserted anything close to what your inferring.
2) A distinct and more accurate word for amputees did exist
How does that make me wrong? as (I) never said, nor inferred one didn't
3) There were apparently amputees at the time....
And As (I) had repetitively asked you two twits was there any evidence of it, now we know, but not as any result of anything either of you two twits did.
Absolutely not a one of those items shows me as being wrong as (I) was the one looking-seeking a connecting term or evidence of any accounting from a biblical source, just that, you and your lame-brain fiend are too busy playing tag Me to actually bother with the thread's topic.
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 04:26 PM)
So....I missed the fact that the bible does make passing references to the miracle....
Didn't you mention that you had done-taken religious studies??
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 04:26 PM)
while you were proven wrong in 3 of your repeated assumptions.
Huh?? Where??
Your use of new age terminology such as “energy” and “ harmonious flow”.
Your use of new age terminology such as “energy” and “ harmonious flow”.
Acupunture a new age thing is it? Well, when I had my sessions it was many years ago, and I didn't know there was this "new age" world out there until I saw it scattered about the internet in 2000. So, to answer what you are putting forward, I treat it with the same suspicion as yourself I'm sure. And I would say so, without fearing any ego I might hurt. But there is a basis for working toward a better understanding of things like the cell structures, dna , atomic structures etc etc. And , yes, harmony has a place. It isn 't a "hippy" concept, it has a scientific understanding behind it that goes back for centuries. Now we know our bodies and our organs have specific frequencies, and even how to ascertain those frequencies, then there is nothing quacky about expecting harmony to regulate the flow of healthy cells, for example.
The new age movement incorporates alternative medical techniques which includes acupuncture. Same dance, different song.
I know of no medical research into what you call harmonious flow. Again, emotional states and addressing the emotional state of a person, but not to the level you seem to be claiming here.
I claimed not to know what your claim of harmonious flow was. I know what similar claims include but your might be different.
I claimed not to know what your claim of harmonious flow was. I know what similar claims include but your might be different.
On the basis of atoms having specific frequencies, and on the basis that molecules are made up of atoms (quarks and all), and on the basis that molecules combine to form cells and structures, and on established understanding about the laws of harmony, how it has an attracticve force, and disharmony has a dispersive force, it is an interesting field to study because, just like certain frequencies are already used in attempting to heal diseases, or cure sewage, further research may lead to better methods. I add to that the consciousness aspect as playing a key role in the healing process. Awareness of something gives it power. Knowing what something is aids in the use of it. It empowers people to know what their body is, and even though one likes to lacerate the conscious aspect in nature, not everyone buys that sort of rubbish.
And what field of study would this be? At what universities, medical centers or research faculties is the research being conducted? What organizations are the peer reviews conducted and published through?
I just stated that my beliefs are based upon what science has revealed and what is verifiable and proven, and you call that faith? Unless you are using a pedantic spin, how is this beliefs based upon faith?
I just stated that my beliefs are based upon what science has revealed and what is verifiable and proven, and you call that faith? Unless you are using a pedantic spin, how is this beliefs based upon faith?
there are hundred of laws of harmony. Anyone into music will know plenty. As far as nature is concerned, everything has a frequency, oscillates,
binds or repels, all governed by knowable harmonic laws. I will, with your permission, get into a few with you, a few at a time.:-)
I am not talking about music and neither were you when you indicate that these laws of harmony and your mention of harmonious flow effect health and healing. So I ask again, what laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? If you are trying to use something you learned from music and trying to make a medical claim about it, this would also qualify as pseudoscience.
You overlooked the rest of that post.
You overlooked the rest of that post.
Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
So, let us look at the facts about Walter Russel. According to Wikipedia:
Link
Another description of him with a reference to “Universal One”: Link
Another description of him with a reference to “Universal One”: Link
Space and the Hydrogen Age
By Walter Russell
Walter Russell: musician, painter, sculptor, architectural designer, philosopher, and natural scientist; Walter Russell dropped out of school in grade 8 in order to help support his family. Always sensing a deep inner connection, he became aware of his genius no matter to what endeavor he turned his hand, becoming a world class pianist, artist, sculptor, writer, architect and figure skater. As his awareness of the true nature of man grew, he knew that anyone could do likewise.
In 1921, Russell experienced a 39-day cosmic illumination. From what he learned in that experience, coupled with studies in traditional science, he formulated the "Russell Cosmogony," through his books The Universal One, The Russell Genero-Radiative Concept, The Secret of Light, and A New Concept of the Universe. Though scoffed at by the scientific community of his time, he was later to be recognized for identifying new elements in the Periodic Table and work that is now being echoed in quantum physics.
In 1926, Walter Russell published The Universal One, his first book of Russell Cosmogony, sending out copies to over five hundred leading world scientists. The many diagrams in that book included these Russell Charts of the Elements, in which he predicted the position of elements that were missing in the Mendeleef Chart, including the radioactive elements.
So yes my original statement seems to be a valid one. You may call these claims science, but I would choose not to since they lack any verification or tangible support.
Most of what is presented of his claims is simply nonsense from a hard scientific perspective and also considering that these claims are of a philosophical nature. I think you also seem to be thinking in an “either or” manner. Even if Russell contributed something of value to science it does not validate all of his claims or his religious and/or philosophical claims.
Most of what is presented of his claims is simply nonsense from a hard scientific perspective and also considering that these claims are of a philosophical nature. I think you also seem to be thinking in an “either or” manner. Even if Russell contributed something of value to science it does not validate all of his claims or his religious and/or philosophical claims.
That's fair enough. My time is spent in a similar manner too, but I include in that fold the scientists that want to promote the "accident" of life, as well as misinformed religiosity. The freedom to persue science is fundamental. It was rightfully reestablished after centuiries of church suppression. I'm interested in persuing the science that some scietists wish to suppress and say isn't science, and that will remove the doubt of a living consciousness at the heart of nature. I'm quite passionate about it, becuase I don't believe it is just the false religious doctrines that lead people astray.
Is that why you do not think that evolution should be taught in schools? I believe you claim that neither ID nor evolution should be taught. Is that right? I cannot see how you can justify not teaching a theory that is currently backed by so much evidence. So unless science pursues and teaches that there is a living consciousness at the heart of nature, science should not be taught? That strikes me as just as bad as the demands of the ID and creationists crowd.
Yes, that is what I mean.
Yes, that is what I mean.
Is that right, your beliefs are more tangible and verifiable? And I accept things anecdottally.
I did not say that. I said I base my beliefs, my views, etc on the tangible and verifiable. You have already mentioned your acceptance of acupuncture based upon your experience. That is anecdotal.
Yes you can, but when I discuss or debate an issue, I am not looking for what passes as “tit for tat”. This is exemplified by people who post with a goal of “point scoring” or “one-ups-manship” in debates or taking and argument and turning into a quarrel. What I look for in a debate is point and counterpoint.
Actually, I’m still researching it. Your article is just the start.
Actually, I’m still researching it. Your article is just the start.
How about NMR? Atomic freuqencies calculated using that technnique. Have a look for it on wikopedea, or I can cut and paste it for you. But here is its main definition at least:
And what does NMR have to do with your stated harmonious flow, generic use of the term energy or the laws of harmony or harmonic laws of nature? If you are trying to claim that the laws of harmony include any generically music term used or applied by any form of technology, then you are being pedantic.
Where does it state that the technique you are trying to support was used?
This is a bit of a strawman argument. The theories of both the origin of life and the origin of the universe are based upon our current understanding of the laws that govern our existence and the natural world. The only proof we have is derived from that understanding and the theories that, so far, have held up to scrutiny over years of testing. I suspect that you are going to demand something tangible in and of itself or claim that since we have no such proof that the theories are invalid or that competing mystical one are just as valid. Lack of evidence on the part of science does not mean supportive evidence for mysticism. Neither does it mean that my beliefs based upon what we know from science so far is invalid since science does not posses all of the answers so far.
This is a bit of a strawman argument. The theories of both the origin of life and the origin of the universe are based upon our current understanding of the laws that govern our existence and the natural world. The only proof we have is derived from that understanding and the theories that, so far, have held up to scrutiny over years of testing. I suspect that you are going to demand something tangible in and of itself or claim that since we have no such proof that the theories are invalid or that competing mystical one are just as valid. Lack of evidence on the part of science does not mean supportive evidence for mysticism. Neither does it mean that my beliefs based upon what we know from science so far is invalid since science does not posses all of the answers so far.
At one point we are in identical boats here, where a little faith in our individual "journies" and research is required.
And again I think you are being pedantic. People vested in ideologies that lack verifiable proof often claim that scientists are just like them because the operate on faith and belief and they also tend to claim that it is no different than a religious faith or belief. I can and do have faith and belief in science not due to some simply loyalty or ideological outlook nor do I support it as in a leap of faith akin to any ideology or religious faith.
Science has a proven track record of being able to aid mankind in discovering the laws and forces that govern our existence. Based upon this track record, I can have faith that it will continue to do so and I believe that based upon the method in which science operates that it is the best tool for such an undertaking.
To accept the claims of holistic healers, new age practitioners and people with similar claims, I would have to abandon the scientific grounding in my reasoning and rely upon faith-based claims equal to those of any religion that do not stand up to the scrutiny of a scientific examination or ones that make claims that contradict what science has already proven.
Yes, although some may tend to argue that point.
Yes, although some may tend to argue that point.
Why do you believe evolution cannot contain this trait?
Why do you think it cannot? Why do you make assumption about what I believe and what do you mean by “contain this trait”?
Evolution is simply the change(s) a species undergoes over time. To claim anything else require proof that there is a guiding intelligent force. The same with acts of nature.
Evolution is simply the change(s) a species undergoes over time. To claim anything else require proof that there is a guiding intelligent force. The same with acts of nature.
Where is this viable evidence thast you actually understand what evolution is, except for models and theories?
Models and a theory is all evolution is, if you ignore the vast amount of material evidence that supports it. The subject matter it addresses is huge and of great importance. So what is it that you think I do not grasp about evolution? What makes you think that there only models and theories when it comes to evolution?
So if the subatomic world and forms of energy have frequencies, then so should all things? While atoms, light and other forms of energy do have frequencies, the human body does not or at least not in the manner I believe you are trying to put forth. As I mentioned before with sound therapy, healing sound and other new age methods, if what they claimed were true, then science and medical research would support their claims. So, if what you say is true, there should be medical research into the frequencies of the human body, yes?
So if the subatomic world and forms of energy have frequencies, then so should all things? While atoms, light and other forms of energy do have frequencies, the human body does not or at least not in the manner I believe you are trying to put forth. As I mentioned before with sound therapy, healing sound and other new age methods, if what they claimed were true, then science and medical research would support their claims. So, if what you say is true, there should be medical research into the frequencies of the human body, yes?
Why has the tradition of harmony endured for centuries if not based on verifiable
facts?
If you are talking about harmony as in the medical claims you are making, because such notions are based upon anecdotal observations, philosophy and the feelings (note not "feeel"ings) of mankind. There still exist claims that if a male child is not circumcised, that he will grow up immoral and develop a tendency to abuse himself sexually. Tradition need not make sense or be backed by reason or verifiable facts. I would dare to say that most are not.
I never said they could not. Research into any such claim should be done to determine if what is claimed is of use medically in this case.
I never said they could not. Research into any such claim should be done to determine if what is claimed is of use medically in this case.
What is a viable one?
I would think it would be something of medical use, of scientific benefit or something that adds to the sum knowledge of mankind.
While I am still looking into your one Ukrainian researcher, do you have any more institutions looking into this subject? Perhaps one tied to a medical research facility, university or research facility?
As of yet, I cannot comment on if the researcher you listed is a new ager or not. This would not be the first time a “Dr.”, professor or similar person was listed in such and endeavor and upon investigation is was shown that the facility and/or person were not legitimate (see Steve12957 for an example).
While I am still looking into your one Ukrainian researcher, do you have any more institutions looking into this subject? Perhaps one tied to a medical research facility, university or research facility?
As of yet, I cannot comment on if the researcher you listed is a new ager or not. This would not be the first time a “Dr.”, professor or similar person was listed in such and endeavor and upon investigation is was shown that the facility and/or person were not legitimate (see Steve12957 for an example).
If energy flows in harmony, why is it not a harmonious flow?
What energy? What harmony?
Due to its use generically by typically new age practitioners. The term energy in and of itself is meaningless. What type of energy it is? Is it thermal, electromagnetic, radioactive or similar know types? All energy can be measured so how is this energy you speak of measured?
Due to its use generically by typically new age practitioners. The term energy in and of itself is meaningless. What type of energy it is? Is it thermal, electromagnetic, radioactive or similar know types? All energy can be measured so how is this energy you speak of measured?
WHy does the definition of NMR include the word energy?
Because it is using it as a descriptive noun in reference to electromagnetic energy:
What do strings that vibrate have to do with anything unscientific?
I never claimed that they were unscientific. What I stated was that you seem to be trying to mix and match terminology that is not applicable.
Not to be argumentative, but with the terminology you are using, you come across as one.
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 25 2007, 04:26 PM)
Your argument for "lame"="amputees" was shown to be totally wrong.
Hummm do you comprehend the English language? as (I) never made that argument (I) simply, as (I) have repetitively told you, suggested a potential connection
QUOTE
***???!!! Why do you get the impression I am about new age remedies and or a new age healing technique??
Your use of new age terminology such as “energy” and “ harmonious flow”.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| ***???!!! Why do you get the impression I am about new age remedies and or a new age healing technique?? |
Your use of new age terminology such as “energy” and “ harmonious flow”.
Acupunture a new age thing is it? Well, when I had my sessions it was many years ago, and I didn't know there was this "new age" world out there until I saw it scattered about the internet in 2000. So, to answer what you are putting forward, I treat it with the same suspicion as yourself I'm sure. And I would say so, without fearing any ego I might hurt. But there is a basis for working toward a better understanding of things like the cell structures, dna , atomic structures etc etc. And , yes, harmony has a place. It isn 't a "hippy" concept, it has a scientific understanding behind it that goes back for centuries. Now we know our bodies and our organs have specific frequencies, and even how to ascertain those frequencies, then there is nothing quacky about expecting harmony to regulate the flow of healthy cells, for example.
The new age movement incorporates alternative medical techniques which includes acupuncture. Same dance, different song.
I know of no medical research into what you call harmonious flow. Again, emotional states and addressing the emotional state of a person, but not to the level you seem to be claiming here.
QUOTE
You just claimed not to know what I mean about it, so why does it smack of anything at all? You're quite over-assumptious.:-)
I claimed not to know what your claim of harmonious flow was. I know what similar claims include but your might be different.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You just claimed not to know what I mean about it, so why does it smack of anything at all? You're quite over-assumptious.:-) |
I claimed not to know what your claim of harmonious flow was. I know what similar claims include but your might be different.
On the basis of atoms having specific frequencies, and on the basis that molecules are made up of atoms (quarks and all), and on the basis that molecules combine to form cells and structures, and on established understanding about the laws of harmony, how it has an attracticve force, and disharmony has a dispersive force, it is an interesting field to study because, just like certain frequencies are already used in attempting to heal diseases, or cure sewage, further research may lead to better methods. I add to that the consciousness aspect as playing a key role in the healing process. Awareness of something gives it power. Knowing what something is aids in the use of it. It empowers people to know what their body is, and even though one likes to lacerate the conscious aspect in nature, not everyone buys that sort of rubbish.
And what field of study would this be? At what universities, medical centers or research faculties is the research being conducted? What organizations are the peer reviews conducted and published through?
QUOTE
Your beliefs are based on a heck of a lot of faith by the sounds of it, actually.:-)
I just stated that my beliefs are based upon what science has revealed and what is verifiable and proven, and you call that faith? Unless you are using a pedantic spin, how is this beliefs based upon faith?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Your beliefs are based on a heck of a lot of faith by the sounds of it, actually.:-) |
I just stated that my beliefs are based upon what science has revealed and what is verifiable and proven, and you call that faith? Unless you are using a pedantic spin, how is this beliefs based upon faith?
there are hundred of laws of harmony. Anyone into music will know plenty. As far as nature is concerned, everything has a frequency, oscillates,
binds or repels, all governed by knowable harmonic laws. I will, with your permission, get into a few with you, a few at a time.:-)
I am not talking about music and neither were you when you indicate that these laws of harmony and your mention of harmonious flow effect health and healing. So I ask again, what laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? If you are trying to use something you learned from music and trying to make a medical claim about it, this would also qualify as pseudoscience.
QUOTE
Hmmmmm guru eh? I don't recall Rusell being a "guru", but I do recall his scientifc endevours. And I am not that suprised you make such a statement. Here is a small fraction on Russell
You overlooked the rest of that post.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Hmmmmm guru eh? I don't recall Rusell being a "guru", but I do recall his scientifc endevours. And I am not that suprised you make such a statement. Here is a small fraction on Russell |
You overlooked the rest of that post.
Using the seemingly established pattern for most of these pseudoscientific and pseudomedical theories, I’d risk betting that these laws of harmony haven’t changed or advanced with the discovery of new knowledge and is more to do with a philosophical outlook that one of verifiable and material science.
So, let us look at the facts about Walter Russel. According to Wikipedia:
Link
QUOTE
Walter Russell (1871–1963), is an American artist, sculptor, architect, and a controversial figure in physics and cosmogony, credited as the originator of the term 'New Age'. He posited that the universe was founded on the unifying principle of rhythmic balanced interchange. Although a number of his books have been published, few of his claims have been verified by mainstream academics.
And a list of his book appears to be philosophical in nature.
And a list of his book appears to be philosophical in nature.
Another description of him with a reference to “Universal One”: Link
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Walter Russell (1871–1963), is an American artist, sculptor, architect, and a controversial figure in physics and cosmogony, credited as the originator of the term 'New Age'. He posited that the universe was founded on the unifying principle of rhythmic balanced interchange. Although a number of his books have been published, few of his claims have been verified by mainstream academics. And a list of his book appears to be philosophical in nature. |
Another description of him with a reference to “Universal One”: Link
Space and the Hydrogen Age
By Walter Russell
Walter Russell: musician, painter, sculptor, architectural designer, philosopher, and natural scientist; Walter Russell dropped out of school in grade 8 in order to help support his family. Always sensing a deep inner connection, he became aware of his genius no matter to what endeavor he turned his hand, becoming a world class pianist, artist, sculptor, writer, architect and figure skater. As his awareness of the true nature of man grew, he knew that anyone could do likewise.
In 1921, Russell experienced a 39-day cosmic illumination. From what he learned in that experience, coupled with studies in traditional science, he formulated the "Russell Cosmogony," through his books The Universal One, The Russell Genero-Radiative Concept, The Secret of Light, and A New Concept of the Universe. Though scoffed at by the scientific community of his time, he was later to be recognized for identifying new elements in the Periodic Table and work that is now being echoed in quantum physics.
In 1926, Walter Russell published The Universal One, his first book of Russell Cosmogony, sending out copies to over five hundred leading world scientists. The many diagrams in that book included these Russell Charts of the Elements, in which he predicted the position of elements that were missing in the Mendeleef Chart, including the radioactive elements.
So yes my original statement seems to be a valid one. You may call these claims science, but I would choose not to since they lack any verification or tangible support.
QUOTE
So you don't accept his ideas and his cliam that there is a consciousness to the universe. That's ok. you'll find him maintain his scientific integrity throughout his writings.
Most of what is presented of his claims is simply nonsense from a hard scientific perspective and also considering that these claims are of a philosophical nature. I think you also seem to be thinking in an “either or” manner. Even if Russell contributed something of value to science it does not validate all of his claims or his religious and/or philosophical claims.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| So you don't accept his ideas and his cliam that there is a consciousness to the universe. That's ok. you'll find him maintain his scientific integrity throughout his writings. |
Most of what is presented of his claims is simply nonsense from a hard scientific perspective and also considering that these claims are of a philosophical nature. I think you also seem to be thinking in an “either or” manner. Even if Russell contributed something of value to science it does not validate all of his claims or his religious and/or philosophical claims.
That's fair enough. My time is spent in a similar manner too, but I include in that fold the scientists that want to promote the "accident" of life, as well as misinformed religiosity. The freedom to persue science is fundamental. It was rightfully reestablished after centuiries of church suppression. I'm interested in persuing the science that some scietists wish to suppress and say isn't science, and that will remove the doubt of a living consciousness at the heart of nature. I'm quite passionate about it, becuase I don't believe it is just the false religious doctrines that lead people astray.
Is that why you do not think that evolution should be taught in schools? I believe you claim that neither ID nor evolution should be taught. Is that right? I cannot see how you can justify not teaching a theory that is currently backed by so much evidence. So unless science pursues and teaches that there is a living consciousness at the heart of nature, science should not be taught? That strikes me as just as bad as the demands of the ID and creationists crowd.
QUOTE
No, gotta be done, I agree.:-) Do you mean the baseless claims regarding "miracles". I said from the start I don't believe in miracles. I do believe in the internal cosmic self, and that life and nature is consciousness.
Yes, that is what I mean.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No, gotta be done, I agree.:-) Do you mean the baseless claims regarding "miracles". I said from the start I don't believe in miracles. I do believe in the internal cosmic self, and that life and nature is consciousness. |
Yes, that is what I mean.
Is that right, your beliefs are more tangible and verifiable? And I accept things anecdottally.
I did not say that. I said I base my beliefs, my views, etc on the tangible and verifiable. You have already mentioned your acceptance of acupuncture based upon your experience. That is anecdotal.
QUOTE
You can certianly believe that if you wish, as you can do whatever you wish whenever you wish as far as I'm concerned. You chose to see my statement of "tit for tat" as some kind of restriction on what you could do. As it is a place to chat, I can say what I want as well.
Yes you can, but when I discuss or debate an issue, I am not looking for what passes as “tit for tat”. This is exemplified by people who post with a goal of “point scoring” or “one-ups-manship” in debates or taking and argument and turning into a quarrel. What I look for in a debate is point and counterpoint.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 02:41 PM)
Your use of new age terminology such as “energy” and “ harmonious flow”.
The new age movement incorporates alternative medical techniques which includes acupuncture. Same dance, different song.
I know of no medical research into what you call harmonious flow. Again, emotional states and addressing the emotional state of a person, but not to the level you seem to be claiming here.
I claimed not to know what your claim of harmonious flow was. I know what similar claims include but your might be different.
And what field of study would this be? At what universities, medical centers or research faculties is the research being conducted? What organizations are the peer reviews conducted and published through?
I just stated that my beliefs are based upon what science has revealed and what is verifiable and proven, and you call that faith? Unless you are using a pedantic spin, how is this beliefs based upon faith?
I am not talking about music and neither were you when you indicate that these laws of harmony and your mention of harmonious flow effect health and healing. So I ask again, what laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? If you are trying to use something you learned from music and trying to make a medical claim about it, this would also qualify as pseudoscience.
You overlooked the rest of that post.
Another description of him with a reference to “Universal One”: Link
So yes my original statement seems to be a valid one. You may call these claims science, but I would choose not to since they lack any verification or tangible support.
Most of what is presented of his claims is simply nonsense from a hard scientific perspective and also considering that these claims are of a philosophical nature. I think you also seem to be thinking in an “either or” manner. Even if Russell contributed something of value to science it does not validate all of his claims or his religious and/or philosophical claims.
Is that why you do not think that evolution should be taught in schools? I believe you claim that neither ID nor evolution should be taught. Is that right? I cannot see how you can justify not teaching a theory that is currently backed by so much evidence. So unless science pursues and teaches that there is a living consciousness at the heart of nature, science should not be taught? That strikes me as just as bad as the demands of the ID and creationists crowd.
Yes, that is what I mean.
I did not say that. I said I base my beliefs, my views, etc on the tangible and verifiable. You have already mentioned your acceptance of acupuncture based upon your experience. That is anecdotal.
Yes you can, but when I discuss or debate an issue, I am not looking for what passes as “tit for tat”. This is exemplified by people who post with a goal of “point scoring” or “one-ups-manship” in debates or taking and argument and turning into a quarrel. What I look for in a debate is point and counterpoint.
I take it you did not read the link to the work being done in the medical field, just after the last post I sent?
How about NMR? Atomic freuqencies calculated using that technnique. Have a look for it on wikopedea, or I can cut and paste it for you. But here is its main definition at least:
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR)
An analytical method with numerous applications that allows the detection of subatomic and structural information of molecules. It works by applying a strong magnetic field (the stronger the field the higher the resolution) to a sample and then measuring how the system responds to radio waves, which is electromagnetic radiation of the appropriate energy to be absorbed by a nucleus resulting in a switch of its spin..........
You keep claiming you base your belief on something verifiable and provable, or something like that. I challenge you to show me any proof you have to support your belief in area such as the origins of life and that of the universe. At one point we are in identical boats here, where a little faith in our individual "journies" and research is required.
Do you have consciousness? Why do you believe evolution cannot contain this trait? What do you know that is provable regarding the inability of evolution and nature itself to have consciousness? Where is this viable evidence thast you actually understand what evolution is, except for models and theories?
Have you not heard of the proof regarding the nature of sound? The Lambdoma? How the ratios are consistent regardless of who carries out the experiment? Is therea nything in nature without oscillation? What about the resonation that is picked up from atoms, and sub atomic particles? How about the spectrum of light that is divided into frequencies? Why is the body not composed of frequencies. Why has the tradition of harmony endured for centuries if not based on verifiable facts? Why can't the research into the nature of sound and how it effects health be a viable one? What is a viable one? Why does this research already exist, and carried out by some very respectable people in medicine, and definately not "new agers"? If energy flows in harmony, why is it not a harmonious flow? Why is the word energy unscientific?
WHy does the definition of NMR include the word energy?
What do strings that vibrate have to do with anything unscientific? Does the most minute string think it is minute? Or is it behaving exactly like all things regarding sound, or resonation and the harmonics it produces?
You want to consider me a new ager, that is your prerogative.
The new age movement incorporates alternative medical techniques which includes acupuncture. Same dance, different song.
I know of no medical research into what you call harmonious flow. Again, emotional states and addressing the emotional state of a person, but not to the level you seem to be claiming here.
I claimed not to know what your claim of harmonious flow was. I know what similar claims include but your might be different.
And what field of study would this be? At what universities, medical centers or research faculties is the research being conducted? What organizations are the peer reviews conducted and published through?
I just stated that my beliefs are based upon what science has revealed and what is verifiable and proven, and you call that faith? Unless you are using a pedantic spin, how is this beliefs based upon faith?
I am not talking about music and neither were you when you indicate that these laws of harmony and your mention of harmonious flow effect health and healing. So I ask again, what laws of harmony? From what scientific branch were such laws formulated, investigated and supported? If you are trying to use something you learned from music and trying to make a medical claim about it, this would also qualify as pseudoscience.
You overlooked the rest of that post.
Another description of him with a reference to “Universal One”: Link
So yes my original statement seems to be a valid one. You may call these claims science, but I would choose not to since they lack any verification or tangible support.
Most of what is presented of his claims is simply nonsense from a hard scientific perspective and also considering that these claims are of a philosophical nature. I think you also seem to be thinking in an “either or” manner. Even if Russell contributed something of value to science it does not validate all of his claims or his religious and/or philosophical claims.
Is that why you do not think that evolution should be taught in schools? I believe you claim that neither ID nor evolution should be taught. Is that right? I cannot see how you can justify not teaching a theory that is currently backed by so much evidence. So unless science pursues and teaches that there is a living consciousness at the heart of nature, science should not be taught? That strikes me as just as bad as the demands of the ID and creationists crowd.
Yes, that is what I mean.
I did not say that. I said I base my beliefs, my views, etc on the tangible and verifiable. You have already mentioned your acceptance of acupuncture based upon your experience. That is anecdotal.
Yes you can, but when I discuss or debate an issue, I am not looking for what passes as “tit for tat”. This is exemplified by people who post with a goal of “point scoring” or “one-ups-manship” in debates or taking and argument and turning into a quarrel. What I look for in a debate is point and counterpoint.
I take it you did not read the link to the work being done in the medical field, just after the last post I sent?
How about NMR? Atomic freuqencies calculated using that technnique. Have a look for it on wikopedea, or I can cut and paste it for you. But here is its main definition at least:
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR)
An analytical method with numerous applications that allows the detection of subatomic and structural information of molecules. It works by applying a strong magnetic field (the stronger the field the higher the resolution) to a sample and then measuring how the system responds to radio waves, which is electromagnetic radiation of the appropriate energy to be absorbed by a nucleus resulting in a switch of its spin..........
You keep claiming you base your belief on something verifiable and provable, or something like that. I challenge you to show me any proof you have to support your belief in area such as the origins of life and that of the universe. At one point we are in identical boats here, where a little faith in our individual "journies" and research is required.
Do you have consciousness? Why do you believe evolution cannot contain this trait? What do you know that is provable regarding the inability of evolution and nature itself to have consciousness? Where is this viable evidence thast you actually understand what evolution is, except for models and theories?
Have you not heard of the proof regarding the nature of sound? The Lambdoma? How the ratios are consistent regardless of who carries out the experiment? Is therea nything in nature without oscillation? What about the resonation that is picked up from atoms, and sub atomic particles? How about the spectrum of light that is divided into frequencies? Why is the body not composed of frequencies. Why has the tradition of harmony endured for centuries if not based on verifiable facts? Why can't the research into the nature of sound and how it effects health be a viable one? What is a viable one? Why does this research already exist, and carried out by some very respectable people in medicine, and definately not "new agers"? If energy flows in harmony, why is it not a harmonious flow? Why is the word energy unscientific?
WHy does the definition of NMR include the word energy?
What do strings that vibrate have to do with anything unscientific? Does the most minute string think it is minute? Or is it behaving exactly like all things regarding sound, or resonation and the harmonics it produces?
You want to consider me a new ager, that is your prerogative.
Mirrorman that one is very deficient in Science knowledge, bereft....just look at his feedback as (I) well noted his stance.....
He told me Vibration was a 'New age' word.....New age of Physics maybe, but (I) would think-believe it more 'old school' in that context.
Maybe someone could link him up to a page on how an atomic clock works: Oscillating - vibrations....but (I) doubt that he would believe it...or that he can intellectually hold on to anything he professes belief in .....for very long.
He told me Vibration was a 'New age' word.....New age of Physics maybe, but (I) would think-believe it more 'old school' in that context.
Maybe someone could link him up to a page on how an atomic clock works: Oscillating - vibrations....but (I) doubt that he would believe it...or that he can intellectually hold on to anything he professes belief in .....for very long.
QUOTE
I take it you did not read the link to the work being done in the medical field, just after the last post I sent?
Actually, I’m still researching it. Your article is just the start.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I take it you did not read the link to the work being done in the medical field, just after the last post I sent? |
Actually, I’m still researching it. Your article is just the start.
How about NMR? Atomic freuqencies calculated using that technnique. Have a look for it on wikopedea, or I can cut and paste it for you. But here is its main definition at least:
And what does NMR have to do with your stated harmonious flow, generic use of the term energy or the laws of harmony or harmonic laws of nature? If you are trying to claim that the laws of harmony include any generically music term used or applied by any form of technology, then you are being pedantic.
Where does it state that the technique you are trying to support was used?
QUOTE
You keep claiming you base your belief on something verifiable and provable, or something like that. I challenge you to show me any proof you have to support your belief in area such as the origins of life and that of the universe.
This is a bit of a strawman argument. The theories of both the origin of life and the origin of the universe are based upon our current understanding of the laws that govern our existence and the natural world. The only proof we have is derived from that understanding and the theories that, so far, have held up to scrutiny over years of testing. I suspect that you are going to demand something tangible in and of itself or claim that since we have no such proof that the theories are invalid or that competing mystical one are just as valid. Lack of evidence on the part of science does not mean supportive evidence for mysticism. Neither does it mean that my beliefs based upon what we know from science so far is invalid since science does not posses all of the answers so far.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You keep claiming you base your belief on something verifiable and provable, or something like that. I challenge you to show me any proof you have to support your belief in area such as the origins of life and that of the universe. |
This is a bit of a strawman argument. The theories of both the origin of life and the origin of the universe are based upon our current understanding of the laws that govern our existence and the natural world. The only proof we have is derived from that understanding and the theories that, so far, have held up to scrutiny over years of testing. I suspect that you are going to demand something tangible in and of itself or claim that since we have no such proof that the theories are invalid or that competing mystical one are just as valid. Lack of evidence on the part of science does not mean supportive evidence for mysticism. Neither does it mean that my beliefs based upon what we know from science so far is invalid since science does not posses all of the answers so far.
At one point we are in identical boats here, where a little faith in our individual "journies" and research is required.
And again I think you are being pedantic. People vested in ideologies that lack verifiable proof often claim that scientists are just like them because the operate on faith and belief and they also tend to claim that it is no different than a religious faith or belief. I can and do have faith and belief in science not due to some simply loyalty or ideological outlook nor do I support it as in a leap of faith akin to any ideology or religious faith.
Science has a proven track record of being able to aid mankind in discovering the laws and forces that govern our existence. Based upon this track record, I can have faith that it will continue to do so and I believe that based upon the method in which science operates that it is the best tool for such an undertaking.
To accept the claims of holistic healers, new age practitioners and people with similar claims, I would have to abandon the scientific grounding in my reasoning and rely upon faith-based claims equal to those of any religion that do not stand up to the scrutiny of a scientific examination or ones that make claims that contradict what science has already proven.
QUOTE
Do you have consciousness?
Yes, although some may tend to argue that point.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Do you have consciousness? |
Yes, although some may tend to argue that point.
Why do you believe evolution cannot contain this trait?
Why do you think it cannot? Why do you make assumption about what I believe and what do you mean by “contain this trait”?
QUOTE
What do you know that is provable regarding the inability of evolution and nature itself to have consciousness?
Evolution is simply the change(s) a species undergoes over time. To claim anything else require proof that there is a guiding intelligent force. The same with acts of nature.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| What do you know that is provable regarding the inability of evolution and nature itself to have consciousness? |
Evolution is simply the change(s) a species undergoes over time. To claim anything else require proof that there is a guiding intelligent force. The same with acts of nature.
Where is this viable evidence thast you actually understand what evolution is, except for models and theories?
Models and a theory is all evolution is, if you ignore the vast amount of material evidence that supports it. The subject matter it addresses is huge and of great importance. So what is it that you think I do not grasp about evolution? What makes you think that there only models and theories when it comes to evolution?
QUOTE
Have you not heard of the proof regarding the nature of sound? The Lambdoma? How the ratios are consistent regardless of who carries out the experiment? Is therea nything in nature without oscillation? What about the resonation that is picked up from atoms, and sub atomic particles? How about the spectrum of light that is divided into frequencies? Why is the body not composed of frequencies.
So if the subatomic world and forms of energy have frequencies, then so should all things? While atoms, light and other forms of energy do have frequencies, the human body does not or at least not in the manner I believe you are trying to put forth. As I mentioned before with sound therapy, healing sound and other new age methods, if what they claimed were true, then science and medical research would support their claims. So, if what you say is true, there should be medical research into the frequencies of the human body, yes?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Have you not heard of the proof regarding the nature of sound? The Lambdoma? How the ratios are consistent regardless of who carries out the experiment? Is therea nything in nature without oscillation? What about the resonation that is picked up from atoms, and sub atomic particles? How about the spectrum of light that is divided into frequencies? Why is the body not composed of frequencies. |
So if the subatomic world and forms of energy have frequencies, then so should all things? While atoms, light and other forms of energy do have frequencies, the human body does not or at least not in the manner I believe you are trying to put forth. As I mentioned before with sound therapy, healing sound and other new age methods, if what they claimed were true, then science and medical research would support their claims. So, if what you say is true, there should be medical research into the frequencies of the human body, yes?
Why has the tradition of harmony endured for centuries if not based on verifiable
facts?
If you are talking about harmony as in the medical claims you are making, because such notions are based upon anecdotal observations, philosophy and the feelings (note not "feeel"ings) of mankind. There still exist claims that if a male child is not circumcised, that he will grow up immoral and develop a tendency to abuse himself sexually. Tradition need not make sense or be backed by reason or verifiable facts. I would dare to say that most are not.
QUOTE
Why can't the research into the nature of sound and how it effects health be a viable one?
I never said they could not. Research into any such claim should be done to determine if what is claimed is of use medically in this case.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Why can't the research into the nature of sound and how it effects health be a viable one? |
I never said they could not. Research into any such claim should be done to determine if what is claimed is of use medically in this case.
What is a viable one?
I would think it would be something of medical use, of scientific benefit or something that adds to the sum knowledge of mankind.
QUOTE
Why does this research already exist, and carried out by some very respectable people in medicine, and definately not "new agers"?
While I am still looking into your one Ukrainian researcher, do you have any more institutions looking into this subject? Perhaps one tied to a medical research facility, university or research facility?
As of yet, I cannot comment on if the researcher you listed is a new ager or not. This would not be the first time a “Dr.”, professor or similar person was listed in such and endeavor and upon investigation is was shown that the facility and/or person were not legitimate (see Steve12957 for an example).
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Why does this research already exist, and carried out by some very respectable people in medicine, and definately not "new agers"? |
While I am still looking into your one Ukrainian researcher, do you have any more institutions looking into this subject? Perhaps one tied to a medical research facility, university or research facility?
As of yet, I cannot comment on if the researcher you listed is a new ager or not. This would not be the first time a “Dr.”, professor or similar person was listed in such and endeavor and upon investigation is was shown that the facility and/or person were not legitimate (see Steve12957 for an example).
If energy flows in harmony, why is it not a harmonious flow?
What energy? What harmony?
QUOTE
Why is the word energy unscientific?
Due to its use generically by typically new age practitioners. The term energy in and of itself is meaningless. What type of energy it is? Is it thermal, electromagnetic, radioactive or similar know types? All energy can be measured so how is this energy you speak of measured?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Why is the word energy unscientific? |
Due to its use generically by typically new age practitioners. The term energy in and of itself is meaningless. What type of energy it is? Is it thermal, electromagnetic, radioactive or similar know types? All energy can be measured so how is this energy you speak of measured?
WHy does the definition of NMR include the word energy?
Because it is using it as a descriptive noun in reference to electromagnetic energy:
QUOTE
then measuring how the system responds to radio waves, which is electromagnetic radiation of the appropriate energy
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| then measuring how the system responds to radio waves, which is electromagnetic radiation of the appropriate energy |
What do strings that vibrate have to do with anything unscientific?
I never claimed that they were unscientific. What I stated was that you seem to be trying to mix and match terminology that is not applicable.
QUOTE
You want to consider me a new ager, that is your prerogative.
Not to be argumentative, but with the terminology you are using, you come across as one.
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 26 2007, 12:50 PM)
Mirrorman that one is very deficient in Science knowledge, bereft....just look at his feedback as (I) well noted his stance.....
He told me Vibration was a 'New age' word.....New age of Physics maybe, but (I) would think-believe it more 'old school' in that context.
Maybe someone could link him up to a page on how an atomic clock works: Oscillating - vibrations....but (I) doubt that he would believe it...or that he can intellectually hold on to anything he professes belief in .....for very long.
What I said was new age about the term vibrations was your use of it, not the term itself. For example, your espoused ability to “feeel” people from afar you claim is based upon these vibrations. That is what is new age, not the terminology itself.
BTW, you should be “feeeling” my laughter at your juvenile attempts at spin. You would think that a guy such as yourself in his late forties would act in accordance with his age and not his shoe size.
He told me Vibration was a 'New age' word.....New age of Physics maybe, but (I) would think-believe it more 'old school' in that context.
Maybe someone could link him up to a page on how an atomic clock works: Oscillating - vibrations....but (I) doubt that he would believe it...or that he can intellectually hold on to anything he professes belief in .....for very long.
What I said was new age about the term vibrations was your use of it, not the term itself. For example, your espoused ability to “feeel” people from afar you claim is based upon these vibrations. That is what is new age, not the terminology itself.
BTW, you should be “feeeling” my laughter at your juvenile attempts at spin. You would think that a guy such as yourself in his late forties would act in accordance with his age and not his shoe size.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 01:37 PM)
What I said was new age about the term vibrations was your use of it, not the term itself.
Ya Right.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 01:37 PM)
For example, your espoused ability to “feeel” people from afar you claim is based upon these vibrations. That is what is new age, not the terminology itself.
Ya right.
I have a problem with this quote. It infers that God, who is supposedly omniscient, gives humans free will knowing that a given percentage will sin and "be cast into the eternal fire". He knows that a given percentage will be cast into the fire. In fact, from the point of view of an omniscient being, free will is an illusion.
Even worse is that a given percentage of those who pluck out an eye will actually go on to sin with the remaining eye and/or limbs. So God has knowingly inflicted suffering upon these people in this life (through Jesus) and then has eternal torture lined up for them after this life. He would have known from the beginning, unless he is not omniscient.
So it is quite simple; we can deny the existence/omniscience of God, or we can observe His questionable character. The only remaining alternative is that the quoted text above has been misinterpreted through many iterations of translation.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 01:37 PM)
BTW, you should be “feeeling” my laughter at your juvenile attempts at spin. You would think that a guy such as yourself in his late forties would act in accordance with his age and not his shoe size.
Ya right.
Mirrorman do you believe that miracles have happened? (I) do.
Mirrorman do you believe that miracles have happened? (I) do.
Actually, I’m still researching it. Your article is just the start.
****************
Good, I've been interested in that kind of thing for about seven years or so, and before that only looked at frequencies from a "trying to tune my guitar" kinda thing.:-)
>>>And what does NMR have to do with your stated harmonious flow, generic use of the term energy or the laws of harmony or harmonic laws of nature? If you are trying to claim that the laws of harmony include any generically music term used or applied by any form of technology, then you are being pedantic.
***********************
nah, I'm following my researched nozzle actually. I just sat here and wrote this just for you. Nothing better than throwing the text books away and writing from how things are seen in the here and now. Hope you find it at least a little interesting:
T T S T T T S. This is a normal musical scale formula. It means very little to the general scientist, unless they are into music. The scientific approach to what this formula means is in terms of mathematical ratios. For example
1:1, 9:1, 5:1, 21:1, 3:1, 27:1, 15:1
These ratios come about due to what is known as the overtone series, a natural phenomena of sound and its tendency to create a series of tones/pitches from its fundamental (1:1). Yet this same law corresponds exactly to wavelengths too.
Pythagoras showed how overtones are created by stretching a string and keeping it stretched so that a consistent pitch was ascertained when he struck the string, or plucked it. Placing one's finger exactly at the half way mark of that string produces the octave pitch of that string, and the ratio is that of a 2:1. Stopping the string at four equal places (nodal points) will produce the next octave, the ratio being 4:1. Placing a stop at the nodal points and cutting the string exactly into three equal parts produces a perfect 5th interval, 3:1, and so on. This is likened to an oscillascope showing how the wavelength of the fundamnetal is excatly twice as long as the wavelength of the octave of the original pitch, 2:1.
The human ear is normally receptive to frequencies in the range of 16hz to around 20,000 hz. However, even if a vibration which is oscillating to and fro at around 8hz is not heard by the ear, it is still felt by the body, around the gut aread. The brain's alpha waves are placed in the region of 8 to 12 hz....at which point the beta wave is placed in the region of 12hz and above. Beta states are the states associated with normal waking consciousness.
A "Hz" stands for Hertz. it is interchangeable with the word Cycles Per Second, which can also be seen as a wavelengths peak to next peak distance.
If 1:1 be given as the pitch C, then the T T S T T T S formula will give rise to C D E F G A B C, known as the major scale. All scales are worked out this way. Some scales are tempered according to different mathematical ratios, and the ascertainable pitch of each note will vary slightly because of this.
All objects will produce a fundamental pitch, which will then produce an array of overtones. Some materials only produce the odd numbered overtones. Brass instruments apparently do this.
Intervals are regarded as the ratio between one note and another. Musically speaking people use language such as "C to G is a perfect 5th interval". A scientist may prefer to see it as "1:1 to 3:2 is a perfect 5th interval". The ratio of the two wavelengths will be to these proportions.
This perfect 5th is regarded as the most harmonious interval beteeen adjacent pitches, when struck together.
From this has evolved a list of concordance and dissonance, and comes under the umbrealla of harmony. However small a wavelength, a 3:2 will be a harmonious partnership.
Another phenomena of sound is that, if one were to play the note "A", for example, then every other object that has "A" as a strong overtone or indeed its own fundamental pitch, will vibrate in sympathy with it.
I accidentally came across this phenomena for myself, but didn't understand what it was at the time.
I had my guitar on my lap and was leaning against the bed board. The head of the guitar touched my radiator as I was playing an "A" chord. The radiater was filled with the sound of this chord, and it amplified the chord as if I had plugged the guitar into an amplifier. I was curious about this and went for another chord. I played a G chord. This time nothing happened and the radiator was silent. I plucked just the note A next, and again the radiator began vibrating in sympathy to it.
Years later I learnt about why this phenomena occurs. It is a way of undertsanding the vibratory signatures existing within all material things. Any like tone, or strong overtone to it within another object, will vibrate along with the object struck. My tbale downstairs is more in tune with an E.:-)
To say that colour is oscillating in the trillion s of cycles per second is worked out using the law of octaves and ratios. Double the 1:1 octave forty times and it enters the realm of colour. X-ray wavelengths ar egiven their frequency in like fashion.
Wll answer more of your questions in a mo.
****************
Good, I've been interested in that kind of thing for about seven years or so, and before that only looked at frequencies from a "trying to tune my guitar" kinda thing.:-)
>>>And what does NMR have to do with your stated harmonious flow, generic use of the term energy or the laws of harmony or harmonic laws of nature? If you are trying to claim that the laws of harmony include any generically music term used or applied by any form of technology, then you are being pedantic.
***********************
nah, I'm following my researched nozzle actually. I just sat here and wrote this just for you. Nothing better than throwing the text books away and writing from how things are seen in the here and now. Hope you find it at least a little interesting:
T T S T T T S. This is a normal musical scale formula. It means very little to the general scientist, unless they are into music. The scientific approach to what this formula means is in terms of mathematical ratios. For example
1:1, 9:1, 5:1, 21:1, 3:1, 27:1, 15:1
These ratios come about due to what is known as the overtone series, a natural phenomena of sound and its tendency to create a series of tones/pitches from its fundamental (1:1). Yet this same law corresponds exactly to wavelengths too.
Pythagoras showed how overtones are created by stretching a string and keeping it stretched so that a consistent pitch was ascertained when he struck the string, or plucked it. Placing one's finger exactly at the half way mark of that string produces the octave pitch of that string, and the ratio is that of a 2:1. Stopping the string at four equal places (nodal points) will produce the next octave, the ratio being 4:1. Placing a stop at the nodal points and cutting the string exactly into three equal parts produces a perfect 5th interval, 3:1, and so on. This is likened to an oscillascope showing how the wavelength of the fundamnetal is excatly twice as long as the wavelength of the octave of the original pitch, 2:1.
The human ear is normally receptive to frequencies in the range of 16hz to around 20,000 hz. However, even if a vibration which is oscillating to and fro at around 8hz is not heard by the ear, it is still felt by the body, around the gut aread. The brain's alpha waves are placed in the region of 8 to 12 hz....at which point the beta wave is placed in the region of 12hz and above. Beta states are the states associated with normal waking consciousness.
A "Hz" stands for Hertz. it is interchangeable with the word Cycles Per Second, which can also be seen as a wavelengths peak to next peak distance.
If 1:1 be given as the pitch C, then the T T S T T T S formula will give rise to C D E F G A B C, known as the major scale. All scales are worked out this way. Some scales are tempered according to different mathematical ratios, and the ascertainable pitch of each note will vary slightly because of this.
All objects will produce a fundamental pitch, which will then produce an array of overtones. Some materials only produce the odd numbered overtones. Brass instruments apparently do this.
Intervals are regarded as the ratio between one note and another. Musically speaking people use language such as "C to G is a perfect 5th interval". A scientist may prefer to see it as "1:1 to 3:2 is a perfect 5th interval". The ratio of the two wavelengths will be to these proportions.
This perfect 5th is regarded as the most harmonious interval beteeen adjacent pitches, when struck together.
From this has evolved a list of concordance and dissonance, and comes under the umbrealla of harmony. However small a wavelength, a 3:2 will be a harmonious partnership.
Another phenomena of sound is that, if one were to play the note "A", for example, then every other object that has "A" as a strong overtone or indeed its own fundamental pitch, will vibrate in sympathy with it.
I accidentally came across this phenomena for myself, but didn't understand what it was at the time.
I had my guitar on my lap and was leaning against the bed board. The head of the guitar touched my radiator as I was playing an "A" chord. The radiater was filled with the sound of this chord, and it amplified the chord as if I had plugged the guitar into an amplifier. I was curious about this and went for another chord. I played a G chord. This time nothing happened and the radiator was silent. I plucked just the note A next, and again the radiator began vibrating in sympathy to it.
Years later I learnt about why this phenomena occurs. It is a way of undertsanding the vibratory signatures existing within all material things. Any like tone, or strong overtone to it within another object, will vibrate along with the object struck. My tbale downstairs is more in tune with an E.:-)
To say that colour is oscillating in the trillion s of cycles per second is worked out using the law of octaves and ratios. Double the 1:1 octave forty times and it enters the realm of colour. X-ray wavelengths ar egiven their frequency in like fashion.
Wll answer more of your questions in a mo.
Mirrorman
While I am reading up on the researcher you listed, no rush on the replies. I have a camping trip to pack for this weekend and I will be out tomorrow and for the weekend or most of it.
While I am reading up on the researcher you listed, no rush on the replies. I have a camping trip to pack for this weekend and I will be out tomorrow and for the weekend or most of it.
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 26 2007, 06:01 PM)
Actually, I’m still researching it. Your article is just the start.
****************
Good, I've been interested in that kind of thing for about seven years or so, and before that only looked at frequencies from a "trying to tune my guitar" kinda thing.:-)
>>>And what does NMR have to do with your stated harmonious flow, generic use of the term energy or the laws of harmony or harmonic laws of nature? If you are trying to claim that the laws of harmony include any generically music term used or applied by any form of technology, then you are being pedantic.
***********************
nah, I'm following my researched nozzle actually. I just sat here and wrote this just for you. Nothing better than throwing the text books away and writing from how things are seen in the here and now. Hope you find it at least a little interesting:
T T S T T T S. This is a normal musical scale formula. It means very little to the general scientist, unless they are into music. The scientific approach to what this formula means is in terms of mathematical ratios. For example
1:1, 9:1, 5:1, 21:1, 3:1, 27:1, 15:1
These ratios come about due to what is known as the overtone series, a natural phenomena of sound and its tendency to create a series of tones/pitches from its fundamental (1:1). Yet this same law corresponds exactly to wavelengths too.
Pythagoras showed how overtones are created by stretching a string and keeping it stretched so that a consistent pitch was ascertained when he struck the string, or plucked it. Placing one's finger exactly at the half way mark of that string produces the octave pitch of that string, and the ratio is that of a 2:1. Stopping the string at four equal places (nodal points) will produce the next octave, the ratio being 4:1. Placing a stop at the nodal points and cutting the string exactly into three equal parts produces a perfect 5th interval, 3:1, and so on. This is likened to an oscillascope showing how the wavelength of the fundamnetal is excatly twice as long as the wavelength of the octave of the original pitch, 2:1.
The human ear is normally receptive to frequencies in the range of 16hz to around 20,000 hz. However, even if a vibration which is oscillating to and fro at around 8hz is not heard by the ear, it is still felt by the body, around the gut aread. The brain's alpha waves are placed in the region of 8 to 12 hz....at which point the beta wave is placed in the region of 12hz and above. Beta states are the states associated with normal waking consciousness.
A "Hz" stands for Hertz. it is interchangeable with the word Cycles Per Second, which can also be seen as a wavelengths peak to next peak distance.
If 1:1 be given as the pitch C, then the T T S T T T S formula will give rise to C D E F G A B C, known as the major scale. All scales are worked out this way. Some scales are tempered according to different mathematical ratios, and the ascertainable pitch of each note will vary slightly because of this.
All objects will produce a fundamental pitch, which will then produce an array of overtones. Some materials only produce the odd numbered overtones. Brass instruments apparently do this.
Intervals are regarded as the ratio between one note and another. Musically speaking people use language such as "C to G is a perfect 5th interval". A scientist may prefer to see it as "1:1 to 3:2 is a perfect 5th interval". The ratio of the two wavelengths will be to these proportions.
This perfect 5th is regarded as the most harmonious interval beteeen adjacent pitches, when struck together.
From this has evolved a list of concordance and dissonance, and comes under the umbrealla of harmony. However small a wavelength, a 3:2 will be a harmonious partnership.
Another phenomena of sound is that, if one were to play the note "A", for example, then every other object that has "A" as a strong overtone or indeed its own fundamental pitch, will vibrate in sympathy with it.
I accidentally came across this phenomena for myself, but didn't understand what it was at the time.
I had my guitar on my lap and was leaning against the bed board. The head of the guitar touched my radiator as I was playing an "A" chord. The radiater was filled with the sound of this chord, and it amplified the chord as if I had plugged the guitar into an amplifier. I was curious about this and went for another chord. I played a G chord. This time nothing happened and the radiator was silent. I plucked just the note A next, and again the radiator began vibrating in sympathy to it.
Years later I learnt about why this phenomena occurs. It is a way of undertsanding the vibratory signatures existing within all material things. Any like tone, or strong overtone to it within another object, will vibrate along with the object struck. My tbale downstairs is more in tune with an E.:-)
To say that colour is oscillating in the trillion s of cycles per second is worked out using the law of octaves and ratios. Double the 1:1 octave forty times and it enters the realm of colour. X-ray wavelengths ar egiven their frequency in like fashion.
Wll answer more of your questions in a mo.
Oh yeah, my neighbour's lawnmower when ticking over is producing the note E. As soon as he starts to cut the grass it shoots up to the note B, a perfect 5th higher. Appliances have to be tested for any nasty overtones that may occur when they are used. My grill is a pain because at a certian temperature it starts producing a nasty tone, which goes away when I open the grill door. Badly manufactured..:-)
Aeroplanes around here tend to shoot past at around Bb..:-) I like to harmonize with them sometimes, and sing a D tone in response. Kinda makes it more pleasing for that moment. You could work out the pitch of a car's RPM by multiplying the number by 60.
1000 RPM is 60,000 CPS, which is the note Bb. However you won't hear the Bb, but one of it's lower overtones. Thisu is becuase of anothe rphenomena called duifferencde and summation tones. When a tone cycling at, say, 100 hz comes together with a tone cycling at 300 hz, they make a wittle baby, and the little'un will be 400hz. Likewise there will also be a difference tone produced at 200 hz. They breed like rabbit.
There's also some great free software that plots on a graph all the pitches produced in your speaking voice.
useless info at your service.;-)
****************
Good, I've been interested in that kind of thing for about seven years or so, and before that only looked at frequencies from a "trying to tune my guitar" kinda thing.:-)
>>>And what does NMR have to do with your stated harmonious flow, generic use of the term energy or the laws of harmony or harmonic laws of nature? If you are trying to claim that the laws of harmony include any generically music term used or applied by any form of technology, then you are being pedantic.
***********************
nah, I'm following my researched nozzle actually. I just sat here and wrote this just for you. Nothing better than throwing the text books away and writing from how things are seen in the here and now. Hope you find it at least a little interesting:
T T S T T T S. This is a normal musical scale formula. It means very little to the general scientist, unless they are into music. The scientific approach to what this formula means is in terms of mathematical ratios. For example
1:1, 9:1, 5:1, 21:1, 3:1, 27:1, 15:1
These ratios come about due to what is known as the overtone series, a natural phenomena of sound and its tendency to create a series of tones/pitches from its fundamental (1:1). Yet this same law corresponds exactly to wavelengths too.
Pythagoras showed how overtones are created by stretching a string and keeping it stretched so that a consistent pitch was ascertained when he struck the string, or plucked it. Placing one's finger exactly at the half way mark of that string produces the octave pitch of that string, and the ratio is that of a 2:1. Stopping the string at four equal places (nodal points) will produce the next octave, the ratio being 4:1. Placing a stop at the nodal points and cutting the string exactly into three equal parts produces a perfect 5th interval, 3:1, and so on. This is likened to an oscillascope showing how the wavelength of the fundamnetal is excatly twice as long as the wavelength of the octave of the original pitch, 2:1.
The human ear is normally receptive to frequencies in the range of 16hz to around 20,000 hz. However, even if a vibration which is oscillating to and fro at around 8hz is not heard by the ear, it is still felt by the body, around the gut aread. The brain's alpha waves are placed in the region of 8 to 12 hz....at which point the beta wave is placed in the region of 12hz and above. Beta states are the states associated with normal waking consciousness.
A "Hz" stands for Hertz. it is interchangeable with the word Cycles Per Second, which can also be seen as a wavelengths peak to next peak distance.
If 1:1 be given as the pitch C, then the T T S T T T S formula will give rise to C D E F G A B C, known as the major scale. All scales are worked out this way. Some scales are tempered according to different mathematical ratios, and the ascertainable pitch of each note will vary slightly because of this.
All objects will produce a fundamental pitch, which will then produce an array of overtones. Some materials only produce the odd numbered overtones. Brass instruments apparently do this.
Intervals are regarded as the ratio between one note and another. Musically speaking people use language such as "C to G is a perfect 5th interval". A scientist may prefer to see it as "1:1 to 3:2 is a perfect 5th interval". The ratio of the two wavelengths will be to these proportions.
This perfect 5th is regarded as the most harmonious interval beteeen adjacent pitches, when struck together.
From this has evolved a list of concordance and dissonance, and comes under the umbrealla of harmony. However small a wavelength, a 3:2 will be a harmonious partnership.
Another phenomena of sound is that, if one were to play the note "A", for example, then every other object that has "A" as a strong overtone or indeed its own fundamental pitch, will vibrate in sympathy with it.
I accidentally came across this phenomena for myself, but didn't understand what it was at the time.
I had my guitar on my lap and was leaning against the bed board. The head of the guitar touched my radiator as I was playing an "A" chord. The radiater was filled with the sound of this chord, and it amplified the chord as if I had plugged the guitar into an amplifier. I was curious about this and went for another chord. I played a G chord. This time nothing happened and the radiator was silent. I plucked just the note A next, and again the radiator began vibrating in sympathy to it.
Years later I learnt about why this phenomena occurs. It is a way of undertsanding the vibratory signatures existing within all material things. Any like tone, or strong overtone to it within another object, will vibrate along with the object struck. My tbale downstairs is more in tune with an E.:-)
To say that colour is oscillating in the trillion s of cycles per second is worked out using the law of octaves and ratios. Double the 1:1 octave forty times and it enters the realm of colour. X-ray wavelengths ar egiven their frequency in like fashion.
Wll answer more of your questions in a mo.
Oh yeah, my neighbour's lawnmower when ticking over is producing the note E. As soon as he starts to cut the grass it shoots up to the note B, a perfect 5th higher. Appliances have to be tested for any nasty overtones that may occur when they are used. My grill is a pain because at a certian temperature it starts producing a nasty tone, which goes away when I open the grill door. Badly manufactured..:-)
Aeroplanes around here tend to shoot past at around Bb..:-) I like to harmonize with them sometimes, and sing a D tone in response. Kinda makes it more pleasing for that moment. You could work out the pitch of a car's RPM by multiplying the number by 60.
1000 RPM is 60,000 CPS, which is the note Bb. However you won't hear the Bb, but one of it's lower overtones. Thisu is becuase of anothe rphenomena called duifferencde and summation tones. When a tone cycling at, say, 100 hz comes together with a tone cycling at 300 hz, they make a wittle baby, and the little'un will be 400hz. Likewise there will also be a difference tone produced at 200 hz. They breed like rabbit.
There's also some great free software that plots on a graph all the pitches produced in your speaking voice.
useless info at your service.;-)
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 06:09 PM)
Mirrorman
While I am reading up on the researcher you listed, no rush on the replies. I have a camping trip to pack for this weekend and I will be out tomorrow and for the weekend or most of it.
Have a good one.
While I am reading up on the researcher you listed, no rush on the replies. I have a camping trip to pack for this weekend and I will be out tomorrow and for the weekend or most of it.
Have a good one.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 02:09 PM)
While I am reading up on the researcher you listed, no rush on the replies. I have a camping trip to pack for this weekend and I will be out tomorrow and for the weekend or most of it.
Before you go, go read this note Post #241491 Some interesting things for you to think about over-on your vacation.
Hope you enjoy it, just try not to spend too much of my - Ooops - the money.
Before you go, go read this note Post #241491 Some interesting things for you to think about over-on your vacation.
Hope you enjoy it, just try not to spend too much of my - Ooops - the money.
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 26 2007, 05:44 PM)
Mirrorman do you believe that miracles have happened? (I) do.
No.:-) I believe "miracles" are for the spiritually poor to believe in.
No.:-) I believe "miracles" are for the spiritually poor to believe in.
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 26 2007, 04:50 PM)
Mirrorman that one is very deficient in Science knowledge, bereft....just look at his feedback as (I) well noted his stance.....
He told me Vibration was a 'New age' word.....New age of Physics maybe, but (I) would think-believe it more 'old school' in that context.
Maybe someone could link him up to a page on how an atomic clock works: Oscillating - vibrations....but (I) doubt that he would believe it...or that he can intellectually hold on to anything he professes belief in .....for very long.
Do you know the difference between oscillation and vibration?
He told me Vibration was a 'New age' word.....New age of Physics maybe, but (I) would think-believe it more 'old school' in that context.
Maybe someone could link him up to a page on how an atomic clock works: Oscillating - vibrations....but (I) doubt that he would believe it...or that he can intellectually hold on to anything he professes belief in .....for very long.
Do you know the difference between oscillation and vibration?
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 26 2007, 02:33 PM)
Before you go, go read this note Post #241491 Some interesting things for you to think about over-on your vacation.
Hope you enjoy it, just try not to spend too much of my - Ooops - the money.
And I have already answered back.
Yet another hollow and laughable claim of yours.
My money will remain with me, but you should have fun “feeeling” me laugh “from afar”. Contemplate the “vibration” of that truth.
Hope you enjoy it, just try not to spend too much of my - Ooops - the money.
And I have already answered back.
Yet another hollow and laughable claim of yours.
My money will remain with me, but you should have fun “feeeling” me laugh “from afar”. Contemplate the “vibration” of that truth.
QUOTE
"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)
I have a problem with this quote. It infers that God, who is supposedly omniscient, gives humans free will knowing that a given percentage will sin and "be cast into the eternal fire". He knows that a given percentage will be cast into the fire. In fact, from the point of view of an omniscient being, free will is an illusion.
Even worse is that a given percentage of those who pluck out an eye will actually go on to sin with the remaining eye and/or limbs. So God has knowingly inflicted suffering upon these people in this life (through Jesus) and then has eternal torture lined up for them after this life. He would have known from the beginning, unless he is not omniscient.
So it is quite simple; we can deny the existence/omniscience of God, or we can observe His questionable character. The only remaining alternative is that the quoted text above has been misinterpreted through many iterations of translation.
QUOTE (doom3million+Jul 27 2007, 01:02 AM)
I have a problem with this quote. It infers that God, who is supposedly omniscient, gives humans free will knowing that a given percentage will sin and "be cast into the eternal fire". He knows that a given percentage will be cast into the fire. In fact, from the point of view of an omniscient being, free will is an illusion.
Even worse is that a given percentage of those who pluck out an eye will actually go on to sin with the remaining eye and/or limbs. So God has knowingly inflicted suffering upon these people in this life (through Jesus) and then has eternal torture lined up for them after this life. He would have known from the beginning, unless he is not omniscient.
So it is quite simple; we can deny the existence/omniscience of God, or we can observe His questionable character. The only remaining alternative is that the quoted text above has been misinterpreted through many iterations of translation.
Your third point is how I feel about it at present. I think the catholic church weaved a few little tales of their own way back then! I think nature has it right. The sun shines unconditionally on all things, and a generous person is a generous person regardless of their denomination, including any so called unbeliever. No silly promises and privisos.
Everyone contributes a portion, whether it be seemingly bad to someone or good.
Even worse is that a given percentage of those who pluck out an eye will actually go on to sin with the remaining eye and/or limbs. So God has knowingly inflicted suffering upon these people in this life (through Jesus) and then has eternal torture lined up for them after this life. He would have known from the beginning, unless he is not omniscient.
So it is quite simple; we can deny the existence/omniscience of God, or we can observe His questionable character. The only remaining alternative is that the quoted text above has been misinterpreted through many iterations of translation.
Your third point is how I feel about it at present. I think the catholic church weaved a few little tales of their own way back then! I think nature has it right. The sun shines unconditionally on all things, and a generous person is a generous person regardless of their denomination, including any so called unbeliever. No silly promises and privisos.
Everyone contributes a portion, whether it be seemingly bad to someone or good.
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 26 2007, 03:00 PM)
Do you know the difference between oscillation and vibration?
Sure....Dictionary(dot)com
Sure....Dictionary(dot)com
QUOTE
3. Physics. a. the oscillating, reciprocating, or other periodic motion of a rigid or elastic body or medium forced from a position or state of equilibrium
....repetitionQUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 27 2007, 01:58 AM)
Sure....Dictionary(dot)com
....repetition
Yes, I guess a dead man on a swing would be oscillating then!
There is a subtle difference, and conventional views are not always speaking for the truth of something. Have a quick read of this definition too:
http://www.svpvril.com/Cosmology/cos9.html#Conventional
"Oscillation is a rhythmically recurring translatory movement." [Keely]
"Vibration is the rhythmical motion of a body within itself." [Keely]
....repetition
Yes, I guess a dead man on a swing would be oscillating then!
There is a subtle difference, and conventional views are not always speaking for the truth of something. Have a quick read of this definition too:
http://www.svpvril.com/Cosmology/cos9.html#Conventional
"Oscillation is a rhythmically recurring translatory movement." [Keely]
"Vibration is the rhythmical motion of a body within itself." [Keely]
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 26 2007, 05:37 PM)
What I said was new age about the term vibrations was your use of it, not the term itself. For example, your espoused ability to “feeel” people from afar you claim is based upon these vibrations. That is what is new age, not the terminology itself.
BTW, you should be “feeeling” my laughter at your juvenile attempts at spin. You would think that a guy such as yourself in his late forties would act in accordance with his age and not his shoe size.
Cute and it did make me laugh......
BTW, you should be “feeeling” my laughter at your juvenile attempts at spin. You would think that a guy such as yourself in his late forties would act in accordance with his age and not his shoe size.
Cute and it did make me laugh......
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 27 2007, 08:13 AM)
Yes, I guess a dead man on a swing would be oscillating then!There is a subtle difference, and conventional views are not always speaking for the truth of something. Have a quick read of this definition too: "Oscillation is a rhythmically recurring translatory movement." [Keely] "Vibration is the rhythmical motion of a body within itself." [Keely]
So is EMR energy a Vibration? or an Oscillation? ...or Both?
So is EMR energy a Vibration? or an Oscillation? ...or Both?
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 29 2007, 05:13 PM)
So is EMR energy a Vibration? or an Oscillation? ...or Both?
If there is two that come together they create a rythmic oscillation between each other. At the same time they have an inner vibratory signature.
Sing the high note E or A or B or G or D into the hole part of a classical guitar. You will distinctly hear the octave overtone ringing back at you. You have disturbed the vibratory signature that was at rest in the guitar, and it has caused an oscillation between you and the pitch of the string on the guitar. There would be other overtones singing back too, but many ears are not really trained to hear them that easily. All mass possesses a fundamental tone, and a series of overtones. You can have one without the other, but one can only be brought about because of the other.
If there is two that come together they create a rythmic oscillation between each other. At the same time they have an inner vibratory signature.
Sing the high note E or A or B or G or D into the hole part of a classical guitar. You will distinctly hear the octave overtone ringing back at you. You have disturbed the vibratory signature that was at rest in the guitar, and it has caused an oscillation between you and the pitch of the string on the guitar. There would be other overtones singing back too, but many ears are not really trained to hear them that easily. All mass possesses a fundamental tone, and a series of overtones. You can have one without the other, but one can only be brought about because of the other.
Mirrorman,
I finished researching some of the claims of the doctor you had listed. While he is using a legitimate medical study and pursuit, he takes it into the realm of pseudoscience.
One of the reasons I say this is due to the Dr.’s ties, use and reliance on naturopathy. A definition for those not familiar with what naturopathy is:
This also does not address outright dangerous medical advice that these diploma mill naturopathy “doctors” give such as their opposition to vaccinations.
More research into this pseudoscientific “natural medicine” can be found here.
You also referred to energy before and as I mentioned used it in a rather generic way. If this energy exists, then it should be measurable as other forms of energy are. Can you go into the details?
The reason I asked is due to the way that new age medical practices use such nebulous terminology when describing their particular techniques.
I know that you do not think that what you support is in the same category as new age or similar questionable alternative medical techniques, but if what you claim is legitimate science and medicine, then it should also meet the same standards and use of standard testing, measurements and verification.
I finished researching some of the claims of the doctor you had listed. While he is using a legitimate medical study and pursuit, he takes it into the realm of pseudoscience.
One of the reasons I say this is due to the Dr.’s ties, use and reliance on naturopathy. A definition for those not familiar with what naturopathy is:
QUOTE
The Dictionary of Occupational Titles, U.S. Department of Labor, Washington, D.C., defines naturopathy as follows: Doctor, Naturopathic (medical service), 0-52-21. Naturopathic. A healer. Diagnoses and treats patients to stimulate and restore natural bodily processes and functions, using a system of practice that employs physical, mechanical, chemical, and psychological methods; utilizes dietetics, exercise, manipulation, chemical substances naturally found in or produced by living bodies, and the healing properties of air, light, water, heat, and electricity. Provides for care of bodily functions, processes, or traumas, and treats nervous or muscular tensions, abnormalities of tissues, organs, muscles, joints, bones, and skin, pressure on nerves, blood vessels, and lymphatics, and assists patient in making adjustments of a mental and emotional nature. Naturopathy excludes the use of major surgery, X-ray, and radium for therapeutic purposes and the use of drugs with the exception of those substances which are assimilable, contain elements or compounds which are components of bodily tissues and are useable by body processes for maintenance of life.
This also does not address outright dangerous medical advice that these diploma mill naturopathy “doctors” give such as their opposition to vaccinations.
More research into this pseudoscientific “natural medicine” can be found here.
You also referred to energy before and as I mentioned used it in a rather generic way. If this energy exists, then it should be measurable as other forms of energy are. Can you go into the details?
The reason I asked is due to the way that new age medical practices use such nebulous terminology when describing their particular techniques.
I know that you do not think that what you support is in the same category as new age or similar questionable alternative medical techniques, but if what you claim is legitimate science and medicine, then it should also meet the same standards and use of standard testing, measurements and verification.
Mirrorman, while I find your frequent(pun intended) references interesting....why do you feel the need to inject them into EVERY thread?
Start a thread all about your amazing Mirror-esque theory....tell us about the scientific breakthroughs etc....but I would honestly appreciate it if I didn't have to scroll through 3 pages worth of your posting each day to get back to posts that are at least partially relevant to a discussion.....
It seems as if your are desperately trying to garner attention for an unpopular idea. While I understand your desire to present your newfound comprehension, please reserve your enthusiasm for the appropriate places.
Start a thread all about your amazing Mirror-esque theory....tell us about the scientific breakthroughs etc....but I would honestly appreciate it if I didn't have to scroll through 3 pages worth of your posting each day to get back to posts that are at least partially relevant to a discussion.....
It seems as if your are desperately trying to garner attention for an unpopular idea. While I understand your desire to present your newfound comprehension, please reserve your enthusiasm for the appropriate places.
QUOTE (PuckSR+Jul 30 2007, 04:21 PM)
Mirrorman, while I find your frequent(pun intended) references interesting....why do you feel the need to inject them into EVERY thread?
Start a thread all about your amazing Mirror-esque theory....tell us about the scientific breakthroughs etc....but I would honestly appreciate it if I didn't have to scroll through 3 pages worth of your posting each day to get back to posts that are at least partially relevant to a discussion.....
It seems as if your are desperately trying to garner attention for an unpopular idea. While I understand your desire to present your newfound comprehension, please reserve your enthusiasm for the appropriate places.
That's true , this thread is about miracles. Mind you I'd consider it a "miracle" if threads didn't end up going off topic. Although I do see a link between mirror-esq theory and the popular notion of "miracles".
>>>>>>>It seems as if your are desperately trying to garner attention for an unpopular idea.
*****************
I'm a bit more laid back than "desperate"..man.:-)
Start a thread all about your amazing Mirror-esque theory....tell us about the scientific breakthroughs etc....but I would honestly appreciate it if I didn't have to scroll through 3 pages worth of your posting each day to get back to posts that are at least partially relevant to a discussion.....
It seems as if your are desperately trying to garner attention for an unpopular idea. While I understand your desire to present your newfound comprehension, please reserve your enthusiasm for the appropriate places.
That's true , this thread is about miracles. Mind you I'd consider it a "miracle" if threads didn't end up going off topic. Although I do see a link between mirror-esq theory and the popular notion of "miracles".
>>>>>>>It seems as if your are desperately trying to garner attention for an unpopular idea.
*****************
I'm a bit more laid back than "desperate"..man.:-)
The thread is actually about how miracles seem to be a bit of a false hope....I know....because I started the thread....
If you read the original post, you might understand the thread a little bit more....it isnt a thread so that people can post whatever they personally believe to be miraculous...but a thread where the concept of the miracle can be discussed.
If you read the original post, you might understand the thread a little bit more....it isnt a thread so that people can post whatever they personally believe to be miraculous...but a thread where the concept of the miracle can be discussed.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 30 2007, 03:20 PM)
Mirrorman,
I finished researching some of the claims of the doctor you had listed. While he is using a legitimate medical study and pursuit, he takes it into the realm of pseudoscience.
One of the reasons I say this is due to the Dr.’s ties, use and reliance on naturopathy. A definition for those not familiar with what naturopathy is:
This also does not address outright dangerous medical advice that these diploma mill naturopathy “doctors” give such as their opposition to vaccinations.
More research into this pseudoscientific “natural medicine” can be found here.
You also referred to energy before and as I mentioned used it in a rather generic way. If this energy exists, then it should be measurable as other forms of energy are. Can you go into the details?
The reason I asked is due to the way that new age medical practices use such nebulous terminology when describing their particular techniques.
I know that you do not think that what you support is in the same category as new age or similar questionable alternative medical techniques, but if what you claim is legitimate science and medicine, then it should also meet the same standards and use of standard testing, measurements and verification.
Attn Puck..skip this one.
Well Gene, I came into the whole arena of knowledge with a pretty fresh slate.
When I had the thought "reverse the formula of the major scale", I could easily have dismissed it if I had already been told what to study along those lines. As it is, when I finally found out the major scale had been mirrored, I'd spent four years going in a very different direction with it. Carrying on for a further fourteen years along the same lines has led to insights that are not in the public awareness in terms of actual mirror theory, based on well known formulas. I've got my own "working conclusions" based on the data, but my motivation, I thought, was to contact the "clever" people in their fields and alert them of the results. When it comes to using the insights in medicine, I really don't mind who would wish to observe the data. If the data is correct, then there is a positive reason for allowing the idea of self healing to gain a solid footing. I got a sick mother, I wouldn't dream of some charlatan getting his hands on her.;-) Experimentation, then a bit of application. My main motivation is in learning to build nano-resonators to specific mirror frequencies.
A standard is a safe guard built on common sense. Standards , however, do have to shift when common sense demands it.
Whilst I don't adhere to any definate practice, I am one of those possibly frustrating people that believes the data I have unearthed is a positive addition to many fields of study. As PuckSR just mentioned, it isn't for this thread.
I finished researching some of the claims of the doctor you had listed. While he is using a legitimate medical study and pursuit, he takes it into the realm of pseudoscience.
One of the reasons I say this is due to the Dr.’s ties, use and reliance on naturopathy. A definition for those not familiar with what naturopathy is:
This also does not address outright dangerous medical advice that these diploma mill naturopathy “doctors” give such as their opposition to vaccinations.
More research into this pseudoscientific “natural medicine” can be found here.
You also referred to energy before and as I mentioned used it in a rather generic way. If this energy exists, then it should be measurable as other forms of energy are. Can you go into the details?
The reason I asked is due to the way that new age medical practices use such nebulous terminology when describing their particular techniques.
I know that you do not think that what you support is in the same category as new age or similar questionable alternative medical techniques, but if what you claim is legitimate science and medicine, then it should also meet the same standards and use of standard testing, measurements and verification.
Attn Puck..skip this one.
Well Gene, I came into the whole arena of knowledge with a pretty fresh slate.
When I had the thought "reverse the formula of the major scale", I could easily have dismissed it if I had already been told what to study along those lines. As it is, when I finally found out the major scale had been mirrored, I'd spent four years going in a very different direction with it. Carrying on for a further fourteen years along the same lines has led to insights that are not in the public awareness in terms of actual mirror theory, based on well known formulas. I've got my own "working conclusions" based on the data, but my motivation, I thought, was to contact the "clever" people in their fields and alert them of the results. When it comes to using the insights in medicine, I really don't mind who would wish to observe the data. If the data is correct, then there is a positive reason for allowing the idea of self healing to gain a solid footing. I got a sick mother, I wouldn't dream of some charlatan getting his hands on her.;-) Experimentation, then a bit of application. My main motivation is in learning to build nano-resonators to specific mirror frequencies.
A standard is a safe guard built on common sense. Standards , however, do have to shift when common sense demands it.
Whilst I don't adhere to any definate practice, I am one of those possibly frustrating people that believes the data I have unearthed is a positive addition to many fields of study. As PuckSR just mentioned, it isn't for this thread.
Okay, then you could start a new thread. I would like to see if you can answer some of the questions I have posed. I would also point out some of the nebulous terminology you seem to use and point to it as to why I, and many other might, see your view as being new age.
You make mention here of “then there is a positive reason for allowing the idea of self healing to gain a solid footing”. When you realize that the human body “safe heals” all the time, it is unclear what you mean by using this phrase.
You make mention here of “then there is a positive reason for allowing the idea of self healing to gain a solid footing”. When you realize that the human body “safe heals” all the time, it is unclear what you mean by using this phrase.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 30 2007, 05:07 PM)
Okay, then you could start a new thread. I would like to see if you can answer some of the questions I have posed. I would also point out some of the nebulous terminology you seem to use and point to it as to why I, and many other might, see your view as being new age.
You make mention here of “then there is a positive reason for allowing the idea of self healing to gain a solid footing”. When you realize that the human body “safe heals” all the time, it is unclear what you mean by using this phrase.
Actually, what I can do is write a whole book on it, and go on to make some animations and some videos. Oh, well I've done the book, and the animations.
Want to start going through the book? I can send you the animations privately as well, or else they will be on a web site shortly.
Now, for someone that actually considers a lot of new age habits a load of baloney, your attempting to fit me into that catagory is one mistaken view out of billions of views.
You start a thread Gene...call it "questions" if you like, and if any of them are directed at me, I'll respond with my views. Or you can go here and have a look for yourself:
http://www.sevenraystoday.com/plutonetwork...or_download.htm
All mirroring results point to one consistent structure, that marries together the dualistic principles found within nature, which can be expressed in terms of number and frequency. The structure resembles two intertwined triangular cyclic forces of frequency relationships, that when plotted on a circle create a well know symbol that has been used for thousands of years as a respresentation of Consciousness, the masculine/feminine aspects in perfect unity. Why this structure should be at the very heart of number and frequency cycles is open to interpretation. That they do exist there is a fact. That they exist within such mirrored grids as the Fibonacci numbers strengthens that claim, due to nature expressing structures according to these numbers. Information existing on one side of the mirror interfaces at this structure, and is then swapped over to the other side of the mirror, continually.
You make mention here of “then there is a positive reason for allowing the idea of self healing to gain a solid footing”. When you realize that the human body “safe heals” all the time, it is unclear what you mean by using this phrase.
Actually, what I can do is write a whole book on it, and go on to make some animations and some videos. Oh, well I've done the book, and the animations.
Want to start going through the book? I can send you the animations privately as well, or else they will be on a web site shortly.
Now, for someone that actually considers a lot of new age habits a load of baloney, your attempting to fit me into that catagory is one mistaken view out of billions of views.
You start a thread Gene...call it "questions" if you like, and if any of them are directed at me, I'll respond with my views. Or you can go here and have a look for yourself:
http://www.sevenraystoday.com/plutonetwork...or_download.htm
All mirroring results point to one consistent structure, that marries together the dualistic principles found within nature, which can be expressed in terms of number and frequency. The structure resembles two intertwined triangular cyclic forces of frequency relationships, that when plotted on a circle create a well know symbol that has been used for thousands of years as a respresentation of Consciousness, the masculine/feminine aspects in perfect unity. Why this structure should be at the very heart of number and frequency cycles is open to interpretation. That they do exist there is a fact. That they exist within such mirrored grids as the Fibonacci numbers strengthens that claim, due to nature expressing structures according to these numbers. Information existing on one side of the mirror interfaces at this structure, and is then swapped over to the other side of the mirror, continually.
Threads are normally started with and for specific topics and discussions. Also consider that I am not the person with the vested interest in this topic nor does it fall on me to seek out proof or argue from the position of an apologist for the topic.
I am not attempting to fit you anywhere. If you were to make claims that Allah split the moon in two, I would see you as a muslim. If you claimed that Jesus was the messiah and the son of god, I would see you as a xian. If you make claims using generic terms like “energy” without acting in a scientific manner of classifying what that energy is, how it is generated, how it is measured and its effect(s) on the human body, then I see you as a new age follower or one of many followers of alternative medicine that tend to use pseudoscientific terminology and nebulous claims.
I have asked for clarification of these matters in a direct and earnest manner so I hope you are not suggesting that I am simply a “debunker”, a term most often associated with a person possessive of a dismissive and cynical mind.
If what you claim has merit or value in the medical or scientific field(s) then I am more than happy to read what you have. As of now, it appears that once a person starts to hold your claims to scrutiny and apply the same measure to them that medical research adheres to, you seem to be noncommittal or not very forthcoming with details.
I am not attempting to fit you anywhere. If you were to make claims that Allah split the moon in two, I would see you as a muslim. If you claimed that Jesus was the messiah and the son of god, I would see you as a xian. If you make claims using generic terms like “energy” without acting in a scientific manner of classifying what that energy is, how it is generated, how it is measured and its effect(s) on the human body, then I see you as a new age follower or one of many followers of alternative medicine that tend to use pseudoscientific terminology and nebulous claims.
I have asked for clarification of these matters in a direct and earnest manner so I hope you are not suggesting that I am simply a “debunker”, a term most often associated with a person possessive of a dismissive and cynical mind.
If what you claim has merit or value in the medical or scientific field(s) then I am more than happy to read what you have. As of now, it appears that once a person starts to hold your claims to scrutiny and apply the same measure to them that medical research adheres to, you seem to be noncommittal or not very forthcoming with details.
If you make claims using generic terms like “energy” without acting in a scientific manner of classifying what that energy is, how it is generated, how it is measured and its effect(s) on the human body, then I see you as a new age follower or one of many followers of alternative medicine that tend to use pseudoscientific terminology and nebulous claims.
**********************
Well I did make a start with what energy is. I gave you insights into sound and overtone structures. Here's some info you may want to peruse that I hope you will not deem pseudoscience, and is already in use in various treatments. I'll go to the "new theories" section in a day or two and start my own thread on Mirror theory. If there is any interest at all, I'll hope others can at least read a little of what is in my book about it, and if they want to criticise that will be very welcome, or suggest whatever they feel applicable.
Abstract
Background
Tumor burden can be pharmacologically controlled by inhibiting cell division and by direct, specific toxicity to the cancerous tissue. Unfortunately, tumors often develop intrinsic pharmacoresistance mediated by specialized drug extrusion mechanisms such as P-glycoprotein. As a consequence, malignant cells may become insensitive to various anti-cancer drugs. Recent studies have shown that low intensity very low frequency electrical stimulation by alternating current (AC) reduces the proliferation of different tumor cell lines by a mechanism affecting potassium channels while at intermediate frequencies interfere with cytoskeletal mechanisms of cell division. The aim of the present study is to test the hypothesis that permeability of several MDR1 over-expressing tumor cell lines to the chemotherapic agent doxorubicin is enhanced by low frequency, low intensity AC stimulation.
Methods
We grew human and rodent cells (C6, HT-1080, H-1299, SKOV-3 and PC-3) which over-expressed MDR1 in 24-well Petri dishes equipped with an array of stainless steel electrodes connected to a computer via a programmable I/O board. We used a dedicated program to generate and monitor the electrical stimulation protocol. Parallel cultures were exposed for 3 hours to increasing concentrations (1, 2, 4, and 8 μM) of doxorubicin following stimulation to 50 Hz AC (7.5 μA) or MDR1 inhibitor XR9576. Cell viability was assessed by determination of adenylate kinase (AK) release. The relationship between MDR1 expression and the intracellular accumulation of doxorubicin as well as the cellular distribution of MDR1 was investigated by computerized image analysis immunohistochemistry and Western blot techniques.
Results
By the use of a variety of tumor cell lines, we show that low frequency, low intensity AC stimulation enhances chemotherapeutic efficacy. This effect was due to an altered expression of intrinsic cellular drug resistance mechanisms. Immunohistochemical, Western blot and fluorescence analysis revealed that AC not only decreases MDR1 expression but also changes its cellular distribution from the plasma membrane to the cytosol. These effects synergistically contributed to the loss of drug extrusion ability and increased chemo-sensitivity.
Conclusion
In the present study, we demonstrate that low frequency, low intensity alternating current electrical stimulation drastically enhances chemotherapeutic efficacy in MDR1 drug resistant malignant tumors. This effect is due to an altered expression of intrinsic cellular drug resistance mechanisms. Our data strongly support a potential clinical application of electrical stimulation to enhance the efficacy of currently available chemotherapeutic protocols.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2407/6/72/abstract
BACKGROUND and OBJECTIVE: Ionizing radiation therapy by way of various
beams such as electron, photon and neutron is an established method in
tumor treatment. The side effects caused by this treatment such as
ulcer, painful mastitis and delay of wound healing are well known, too.
Biomodulation by low level laser therapy (LLLT) has become popular as a
therapeutic modality for the acceleration of wound healing and the
treatment of inflammation. Evidence for this kind of application,
however, is not fully understood yet. This study intends to demonstrate
the response of biomodulative laser treatment on the side effects caused
by ionizing radiation by means of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI).
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cancernet/cancerlit/701280.html
Recently, a new electrochemotherapy [ECT] antitumor treatment has been developed,
which treatment consists of locally delivering shocks of high-intensity DC
electrical pulses to tumor sites a short time after the systemic administration
of chemotherapy. The DC electrical pulses open large transient pores in the
plasma membranes of the exposed cells. The chemotherapeutic agents can enter
the cells through these pores resulting in locally enhanced cytotoxicity.
More specifically, it is believed that each high-intensity electrical DC pulse
shock produces a sufficiently high force field across the plasma membrane of
each of the exposed cells to cause the plasma membrane to break down and
puncture in response thereto, thereby creating the aforesaid pores in the
exposed cells.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5386837-description.html
BACKGROUNDElectrochemotherapy (ECT) is a new antitumor approach that combines
systemic bleomycin (BLM) with electric pulses (EP) delivered locally at the
tumor site. These EP permeabilize the cells in the tissue, allow BLM delivery
inside the cells, and increase BLM cytotoxicity. As an extension of our initial
Phase I trial on patients with head and neck squamous cell carcinoma (HNSCC)
permeation nodules, we tested variations of ECT protocol to determine how to
improve it.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin...ETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.chemweb.com/journals?type=issue...94&iid=00650002
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Kranjc,S
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/590434.html
In physics and other sciences, energy (from the Greek ενεργός, energos,
"active, working")[1] is a scalar physical quantity, often represented by
the symbol E,[2] that is used to describe a conserved property of objects
and systems of objects. It comes in many different forms, such as kinetic,
potential, thermal, electrical, chemical, nuclear, and mass energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
The frequency and wavelength of a wave determines how much energy a wave has.
http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/ac...gneticspectrum/
**********************
Well I did make a start with what energy is. I gave you insights into sound and overtone structures. Here's some info you may want to peruse that I hope you will not deem pseudoscience, and is already in use in various treatments. I'll go to the "new theories" section in a day or two and start my own thread on Mirror theory. If there is any interest at all, I'll hope others can at least read a little of what is in my book about it, and if they want to criticise that will be very welcome, or suggest whatever they feel applicable.
Abstract
Background
Tumor burden can be pharmacologically controlled by inhibiting cell division and by direct, specific toxicity to the cancerous tissue. Unfortunately, tumors often develop intrinsic pharmacoresistance mediated by specialized drug extrusion mechanisms such as P-glycoprotein. As a consequence, malignant cells may become insensitive to various anti-cancer drugs. Recent studies have shown that low intensity very low frequency electrical stimulation by alternating current (AC) reduces the proliferation of different tumor cell lines by a mechanism affecting potassium channels while at intermediate frequencies interfere with cytoskeletal mechanisms of cell division. The aim of the present study is to test the hypothesis that permeability of several MDR1 over-expressing tumor cell lines to the chemotherapic agent doxorubicin is enhanced by low frequency, low intensity AC stimulation.
Methods
We grew human and rodent cells (C6, HT-1080, H-1299, SKOV-3 and PC-3) which over-expressed MDR1 in 24-well Petri dishes equipped with an array of stainless steel electrodes connected to a computer via a programmable I/O board. We used a dedicated program to generate and monitor the electrical stimulation protocol. Parallel cultures were exposed for 3 hours to increasing concentrations (1, 2, 4, and 8 μM) of doxorubicin following stimulation to 50 Hz AC (7.5 μA) or MDR1 inhibitor XR9576. Cell viability was assessed by determination of adenylate kinase (AK) release. The relationship between MDR1 expression and the intracellular accumulation of doxorubicin as well as the cellular distribution of MDR1 was investigated by computerized image analysis immunohistochemistry and Western blot techniques.
Results
By the use of a variety of tumor cell lines, we show that low frequency, low intensity AC stimulation enhances chemotherapeutic efficacy. This effect was due to an altered expression of intrinsic cellular drug resistance mechanisms. Immunohistochemical, Western blot and fluorescence analysis revealed that AC not only decreases MDR1 expression but also changes its cellular distribution from the plasma membrane to the cytosol. These effects synergistically contributed to the loss of drug extrusion ability and increased chemo-sensitivity.
Conclusion
In the present study, we demonstrate that low frequency, low intensity alternating current electrical stimulation drastically enhances chemotherapeutic efficacy in MDR1 drug resistant malignant tumors. This effect is due to an altered expression of intrinsic cellular drug resistance mechanisms. Our data strongly support a potential clinical application of electrical stimulation to enhance the efficacy of currently available chemotherapeutic protocols.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2407/6/72/abstract
BACKGROUND and OBJECTIVE: Ionizing radiation therapy by way of various
beams such as electron, photon and neutron is an established method in
tumor treatment. The side effects caused by this treatment such as
ulcer, painful mastitis and delay of wound healing are well known, too.
Biomodulation by low level laser therapy (LLLT) has become popular as a
therapeutic modality for the acceleration of wound healing and the
treatment of inflammation. Evidence for this kind of application,
however, is not fully understood yet. This study intends to demonstrate
the response of biomodulative laser treatment on the side effects caused
by ionizing radiation by means of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI).
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cancernet/cancerlit/701280.html
Recently, a new electrochemotherapy [ECT] antitumor treatment has been developed,
which treatment consists of locally delivering shocks of high-intensity DC
electrical pulses to tumor sites a short time after the systemic administration
of chemotherapy. The DC electrical pulses open large transient pores in the
plasma membranes of the exposed cells. The chemotherapeutic agents can enter
the cells through these pores resulting in locally enhanced cytotoxicity.
More specifically, it is believed that each high-intensity electrical DC pulse
shock produces a sufficiently high force field across the plasma membrane of
each of the exposed cells to cause the plasma membrane to break down and
puncture in response thereto, thereby creating the aforesaid pores in the
exposed cells.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5386837-description.html
BACKGROUNDElectrochemotherapy (ECT) is a new antitumor approach that combines
systemic bleomycin (BLM) with electric pulses (EP) delivered locally at the
tumor site. These EP permeabilize the cells in the tissue, allow BLM delivery
inside the cells, and increase BLM cytotoxicity. As an extension of our initial
Phase I trial on patients with head and neck squamous cell carcinoma (HNSCC)
permeation nodules, we tested variations of ECT protocol to determine how to
improve it.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin...ETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.chemweb.com/journals?type=issue...94&iid=00650002
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Kranjc,S
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/590434.html
In physics and other sciences, energy (from the Greek ενεργός, energos,
"active, working")[1] is a scalar physical quantity, often represented by
the symbol E,[2] that is used to describe a conserved property of objects
and systems of objects. It comes in many different forms, such as kinetic,
potential, thermal, electrical, chemical, nuclear, and mass energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
The frequency and wavelength of a wave determines how much energy a wave has.
http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/ac...gneticspectrum/
If I was trying to have a discussion on debunking miracles i would have named it that rather than Miracles. Maybe someone whoever started this topic should have probably named it a bit differently if they didn't want to learn about miracles. I have so many times been told here I was not clear enough. In the case of this thread I'd have to say frankly if you name it Miracles you will more than likely get to hear both sides of the equation.
I believe in miracles very clearly I've stated that in many places, though at the same time I would show how some things are possible that they could not be miracles... You cannot debate the legitimacy of miracles without hearing the opposite side of the debate. Otherwise you're not learning anything.
Good luck to you in your effort to prove that miracles are completely untrue and do not exist...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"This thread is not intended as a challenge to religious sensibilities. I do not want to "show someone to be wrong", I just want to hear the arguments from both sides on this relatively interesting topic."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That statement in itself opens the door for people to debate the topic...
I believe in miracles very clearly I've stated that in many places, though at the same time I would show how some things are possible that they could not be miracles... You cannot debate the legitimacy of miracles without hearing the opposite side of the debate. Otherwise you're not learning anything.
Good luck to you in your effort to prove that miracles are completely untrue and do not exist...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"This thread is not intended as a challenge to religious sensibilities. I do not want to "show someone to be wrong", I just want to hear the arguments from both sides on this relatively interesting topic."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That statement in itself opens the door for people to debate the topic...
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 29 2007, 01:57 PM)
(SNIP) If there is two that come together they create a rythmic oscillation between each other. At the same time they have an inner vibratory signature. (SNoP)
Off topic, EMR traveling through Space, Vibration? or oscillation?
You keep using matter, 'matter' (dependent upon the material) will generate oscillations of vibratory rates and of vibratory inputs...a hammer hitting a length of I beam, Vibrational Input translated into oscillatory outputs....Plank of Wood - same hammer, little if any oscillation as result of the vibratory input due to material composure, cellular, ergo; energy conductance rates......you mean like that?
You keep using matter, 'matter' (dependent upon the material) will generate oscillations of vibratory rates and of vibratory inputs...a hammer hitting a length of I beam, Vibrational Input translated into oscillatory outputs....Plank of Wood - same hammer, little if any oscillation as result of the vibratory input due to material composure, cellular, ergo; energy conductance rates......you mean like that?
QUOTE (Zarabtul+ Jul 31 2007, 11:05 AM)
(SNIP) That statement in itself opens the door for people to debate the topic... (SNoP)
To bad it was not held to by the Author of origin.
This does not make sense. You have posted claims about the laws of harmony, harmonious flow of energy and the “energy” related to them and now you are posting information about medical research regarding the use of various forms of electricity and radiation?
This does not tell me the details about your claims. Are you trying to claim that any form of energy use supports your claims? How does the human body normal maintain a harmonious flow of the various mentioned forms of ionizing radiation?
This does not tell me the details about your claims. Are you trying to claim that any form of energy use supports your claims? How does the human body normal maintain a harmonious flow of the various mentioned forms of ionizing radiation?
QUOTE (Mr. Robin Parsons+Jul 31 2007, 03:27 PM)
Off topic, EMR traveling through Space, Vibration? or oscillation?
You keep using matter, 'matter' (dependent upon the material) will generate oscillations of vibratory rates and of vibratory inputs...a hammer hitting a length of I beam, Vibrational Input translated into oscillatory outputs....Plank of Wood - same hammer, little if any oscillation as result of the vibratory input due to material composure, cellular, ergo; energy conductance rates......you mean like that?
EMR is a wave. Matter is a wave. Waves interact and therefore oscillate in relation to each other. As they are waves they also have their own inner vibratory signature, depending on the wavelength.
One EMR wavelength travelling through space would be in a vibratory state.
One atom on its own without interacting with another atom is in a state of vibration. One can't deny its inner wavelength/frequency just because it has nothing to oscillate with.
This was a good read:
............It takes time for any moving object to reach thermal equilibrium with its surroundings, as it jumps from frame to frame in spacetime. Each frame being in reality marked by the collapse of matter wave-fronts, like a quantum clock, as inwardly flowing EMR bring within them some of the information necessary for each quantization, for each objective state. Each object having its own rate, its own wavelength, or, its own pulse, so to speak..............
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?t...hysics&tid=2009
I'd like to repsect PuckSR's request not to go off tangent with this thread, so maybe another thread can be started regarding this stuff.
You keep using matter, 'matter' (dependent upon the material) will generate oscillations of vibratory rates and of vibratory inputs...a hammer hitting a length of I beam, Vibrational Input translated into oscillatory outputs....Plank of Wood - same hammer, little if any oscillation as result of the vibratory input due to material composure, cellular, ergo; energy conductance rates......you mean like that?
EMR is a wave. Matter is a wave. Waves interact and therefore oscillate in relation to each other. As they are waves they also have their own inner vibratory signature, depending on the wavelength.
One EMR wavelength travelling through space would be in a vibratory state.
One atom on its own without interacting with another atom is in a state of vibration. One can't deny its inner wavelength/frequency just because it has nothing to oscillate with.
This was a good read:
............It takes time for any moving object to reach thermal equilibrium with its surroundings, as it jumps from frame to frame in spacetime. Each frame being in reality marked by the collapse of matter wave-fronts, like a quantum clock, as inwardly flowing EMR bring within them some of the information necessary for each quantization, for each objective state. Each object having its own rate, its own wavelength, or, its own pulse, so to speak..............
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?t...hysics&tid=2009
I'd like to repsect PuckSR's request not to go off tangent with this thread, so maybe another thread can be started regarding this stuff.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 31 2007, 03:32 PM)
This does not make sense. You have posted claims about the laws of harmony, harmonious flow of energy and the “energy” related to them and now you are posting information about medical research regarding the use of various forms of electricity and radiation?
This does not tell me the details about your claims. Are you trying to claim that any form of energy use supports your claims? How does the human body normal maintain a harmonious flow of the various mentioned forms of ionizing radiation?
Actually you don't make any sense at all Gene, at the moment. You sound more like a spin doctor for George Clinton. Matter cannot exist without a harmonious ratio. And because within one single wavelength is also the means for disharmonious ratios to come about, matter will eventually dissipate. That's overtones. Energy exchanges. All the things you consider mumbo jumbo happen all round you every day. The wavelength explains harmony and disorder amongst all things.
Therefore, you haven't understood my claims, nor that I said any form of energy will support them, especially in light of my mentioning the radiator example, where only the "A" overtone responded. It responded due to the fact that every single A overtone would have responded in the surrounding universe, and the only reason they don't is that particular energy didn't travel that far. Other objects in my room would have oscillated along with the A overtone if the energy would have travelled the respective distance required. It's not a mystery. You can prove this for yourself anytime.
This does not tell me the details about your claims. Are you trying to claim that any form of energy use supports your claims? How does the human body normal maintain a harmonious flow of the various mentioned forms of ionizing radiation?
Actually you don't make any sense at all Gene, at the moment. You sound more like a spin doctor for George Clinton. Matter cannot exist without a harmonious ratio. And because within one single wavelength is also the means for disharmonious ratios to come about, matter will eventually dissipate. That's overtones. Energy exchanges. All the things you consider mumbo jumbo happen all round you every day. The wavelength explains harmony and disorder amongst all things.
Therefore, you haven't understood my claims, nor that I said any form of energy will support them, especially in light of my mentioning the radiator example, where only the "A" overtone responded. It responded due to the fact that every single A overtone would have responded in the surrounding universe, and the only reason they don't is that particular energy didn't travel that far. Other objects in my room would have oscillated along with the A overtone if the energy would have travelled the respective distance required. It's not a mystery. You can prove this for yourself anytime.
I haven’t understood your claims because you have made generic pseudoscientific or new age claims only, nothing of substance.
You make claims about laws of harmony, yet cannot cite theses laws. You cannot cite any research facility or university pursuing this or the result of the work. You cited one university in the Ukraine and a Dr. who’s work in this field is tied to naturopathy, a know pseudoscience.
I ask about specific information about what energy you keep talking about and you give me a generic definition and cite multiple forms of energy, but have yet to explain the details of your claims. If you claim that thermal, mechanical, radioactive and electrical all work the same, then it is more claims of pseudoscience. You keep making generic claims but cannot provide specific details.
Since your book is currently not available, I searched for your name specifically. This is what I found.
Link
So it appears that what you are pushing is the new age pseudoscience I spoke of earlier. Then there is this.
Link
So it appears that what you are pushing is the new age pseudoscience I spoke of earlier. Then there is this.
Link
About Lui
As told by Lynda Brasier :
In my mind, I have often relived my first meeting with Luigi Di Martino. It was not a lengthy exchange, yet it was to determine my future in more ways then one. During that exchange I immediately realized how exceptional a person he was in his chosen fields. Musician, songwriter, poet, arranger, scientist and mystic. He approached learning with a keen mind and a willingness to look beyond ordinary boundaries. I consider it a rare privilege to have studied his work. One only needs to read the first section of his book to grasp a new way of looking at the Universe and a new way of thinking on how matter is produced.
Mr Di Martino was born in a small village in Italy. He now resides in England where some of the finest learning tools on this planet can be found. During his teen years he found he had a great love of music. At the age of thirty he was upstairs, sitting upon his bed practicing scales on guitar. Having drifted of into a semi-trance state, he heard an audible voice tell him to 'reverse the formula of the major scale'... At that time, he had no knowledge that the major scale had already been, what the musical world called 'mirrored'.
That very first step replicated how a major scale is mirrored. Not knowing that it had already been done was a blessing in disguise to him as he felt it was virgin ground that needed to be explored. Explore it he did. For the next 17 years he delved into a world of mirrored music, ancient history, math, geometry and science to develop the worlds first look into the Universal cycles on the 'other side'. A world of triangles, mating, interlocking and birthing in a dance of life.
He is also developer of the Mirromaker Software. This was developed along with Cliff Douse and Robert Tripp. It has helped artists such as Peter Gabriel on his UP Album. This same software was reviewed (in Keyboard Player Magazine) as a wondrous tool for the future generations.
Yes, I’m sure that all great breakthroughs were made by people hearing an “audible voice” while in a semi-trance.
Is your Mirrormaker software still around? I asked because when I searched for it, the only reference I found was on the page quoted above.
Then we have the rest to consider.
Link
Each symbol is made up of two triangles of frequencies. One will be seen to be representative of a male triangle of frequencies, and the other as a female triangle of frequencies. These two symbols sum up many organic structures when one employs symmetrical reflection, where the organic structure is not seen as only a one-sided system, but one that holds its reflection in the mirror producing its partner. Whenever a mirror experiment on any organic structure is performed it will be seen that a male quality is on one side and it is partnered with a female quality on the other.
An introduction to Mode Boxes
Each Mode of the Major scale is mirrored and all 14 resulting scales are presented in a box like manner. An overall ‘mirror' structure is seen to be operating within these Mode Boxes. The results at the 45-degree angle of the Mode Box are focused on in an effort to explain why these mirror structures are occurring. This introduces the idea that the b5 position of a Major scale is an ‘invisible' axis point and that this point is catalyst to the formation of the mirror structures. Diagrams show how this is the case. The frequency numbers and colours of each pitch within a Mode Box are also added, as well as diagrams showing other ways to achieve one of the mirror Triangular structures that go on to produce the circle of tones, as shown in the symbols above.
The way the relationships are flowing both sides of the mirror can be summed up using this next image. Here the notes are replaced with seven colors. This is really how the fourteen modes are causing the 45-degree angle relationships. Going back to the above two symbols representing the circle of tones, it is these that are flowing across this angle on the left hand side.
More hidden sequences
Once the validity of the ‘mirror' structure is established a more in depth analysis is undertaken in order to marry both sides of the mirror together into one whole. A unique mirror point is discovered within the number sequence box, which is also displaying structure at its 45-degree angle. This will be seen as the Tonal Fountain, from which flows the perfect symmetry of the entire duality of forces, as represented in musical form and numbers.
There are more diagrams showing the flow of the Triangles within the circle of tones. A triangle wheel diagram is presented, as well as other diagrams depicting relationships at the central points of both scales and number sequences.
Eventually the reader will see that the numbers and music, taken as a whole, actually travel in and out of the mirror, one cycle this side and the next cycle the other side. This is a game between Light and Dark, and to do this the cycles employ the ‘invisible' axis point in order to swap sides. This axis point is at the 45-degree angle as well as a point called the 4.5, between the 4 th and 5 th position of a major scale. This carries many implications regarding the make-up of the universe, including how an electron spins half ‘this side' and half the ‘other side'.
The book contains many more diagrams that show how the mirror side is linked to the non-mirror by one unbroken thread. For the same structure to actually emerge when analyzing the Fibonacci numbers, or the I-Ching hexagrams, or the Tzolkin grid of the Mayans, is extremely uncanny, and can only lead to the conclusion that the circle of tones, as shown as a Star of David (or Merkaba) is really at the heart of the musical and numerological creation.
There are no complicated formulas expressed within this book. In fact the experiments are relatively simple; yet from this simplicity it becomes clear that one overall creative structure is at the heart of many other systems and the knowledge built on them.
So numerology, masculine and feminine triangles, Fibonacci numbers,the I-Ching hexagrams, the Tzolkin grid of the Mayans, and the Star of David and sound healing is supposed to be seen and taken as not being new age and as a legitimate pursuit of science?
You castigate science and scientists as having a faith, religion or making questionable claims while pushing claptrap like this as a serious scientific endeavor? I’ll stick to those whose research and endeavors are based upon non-mystical, rational, material and verifiable pursuits.
You make claims about laws of harmony, yet cannot cite theses laws. You cannot cite any research facility or university pursuing this or the result of the work. You cited one university in the Ukraine and a Dr. who’s work in this field is tied to naturopathy, a know pseudoscience.
I ask about specific information about what energy you keep talking about and you give me a generic definition and cite multiple forms of energy, but have yet to explain the details of your claims. If you claim that thermal, mechanical, radioactive and electrical all work the same, then it is more claims of pseudoscience. You keep making generic claims but cannot provide specific details.
Since your book is currently not available, I searched for your name specifically. This is what I found.
Link
QUOTE
The information in the book "Music and Numbers through the Looking Glass" is new and takes a completely fresh look into the technique of symmetrically reflecting music formulas and numbers. It begins with the reversal of formulas that are used to build musical scales, the purpose being to map the world in symmetry to our own. It is a journey to find one overall structure that unites both the “mirror” world with its visible partner.
Because the Phi proportion also relates to this ‘mirror' structure it is logical to assume that Nature also corresponds to the symmetrical qualities that the said structure possesses. Superstring Theory is one of the sciences that would benefit from being aware of such an underlying structure. Perhaps Machinery built to symmetrical vibratory specification is another area one may explore. Or the techniques used within sound healing can embrace the awareness of these symmetrical relationships. Actually, any system will benefit from understanding its mirror side.
The book delves into other structures that exist, such as the Tzolkin grid, the Lambdoma of Pythagoras, the astrological charts, the I-Ching hexagrams, the Fibonacci numbers and number pyramids. It is seen that this very same mirror structure that is found within music is also found here. Is this structure then the unification of the duality of forces? The book aims to show this is true.
Musical applications have been ommitted from this book, but will be dealt with fully in upcoming books.
If one imagine that there exists a continent that has remained relatively unexplored, the invitation to everyone here is to become fellow explorers, and to acqauint oneself with the facts that exist within the mirror of things.
Because the Phi proportion also relates to this ‘mirror' structure it is logical to assume that Nature also corresponds to the symmetrical qualities that the said structure possesses. Superstring Theory is one of the sciences that would benefit from being aware of such an underlying structure. Perhaps Machinery built to symmetrical vibratory specification is another area one may explore. Or the techniques used within sound healing can embrace the awareness of these symmetrical relationships. Actually, any system will benefit from understanding its mirror side.
The book delves into other structures that exist, such as the Tzolkin grid, the Lambdoma of Pythagoras, the astrological charts, the I-Ching hexagrams, the Fibonacci numbers and number pyramids. It is seen that this very same mirror structure that is found within music is also found here. Is this structure then the unification of the duality of forces? The book aims to show this is true.
Musical applications have been ommitted from this book, but will be dealt with fully in upcoming books.
If one imagine that there exists a continent that has remained relatively unexplored, the invitation to everyone here is to become fellow explorers, and to acqauint oneself with the facts that exist within the mirror of things.
So it appears that what you are pushing is the new age pseudoscience I spoke of earlier. Then there is this.
Link
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The information in the book "Music and Numbers through the Looking Glass" is new and takes a completely fresh look into the technique of symmetrically reflecting music formulas and numbers. It begins with the reversal of formulas that are used to build musical scales, the purpose being to map the world in symmetry to our own. It is a journey to find one overall structure that unites both the “mirror” world with its visible partner. Because the Phi proportion also relates to this ‘mirror' structure it is logical to assume that Nature also corresponds to the symmetrical qualities that the said structure possesses. Superstring Theory is one of the sciences that would benefit from being aware of such an underlying structure. Perhaps Machinery built to symmetrical vibratory specification is another area one may explore. Or the techniques used within sound healing can embrace the awareness of these symmetrical relationships. Actually, any system will benefit from understanding its mirror side. The book delves into other structures that exist, such as the Tzolkin grid, the Lambdoma of Pythagoras, the astrological charts, the I-Ching hexagrams, the Fibonacci numbers and number pyramids. It is seen that this very same mirror structure that is found within music is also found here. Is this structure then the unification of the duality of forces? The book aims to show this is true. Musical applications have been ommitted from this book, but will be dealt with fully in upcoming books. If one imagine that there exists a continent that has remained relatively unexplored, the invitation to everyone here is to become fellow explorers, and to acqauint oneself with the facts that exist within the mirror of things. |
So it appears that what you are pushing is the new age pseudoscience I spoke of earlier. Then there is this.
Link
About Lui
As told by Lynda Brasier :
In my mind, I have often relived my first meeting with Luigi Di Martino. It was not a lengthy exchange, yet it was to determine my future in more ways then one. During that exchange I immediately realized how exceptional a person he was in his chosen fields. Musician, songwriter, poet, arranger, scientist and mystic. He approached learning with a keen mind and a willingness to look beyond ordinary boundaries. I consider it a rare privilege to have studied his work. One only needs to read the first section of his book to grasp a new way of looking at the Universe and a new way of thinking on how matter is produced.
Mr Di Martino was born in a small village in Italy. He now resides in England where some of the finest learning tools on this planet can be found. During his teen years he found he had a great love of music. At the age of thirty he was upstairs, sitting upon his bed practicing scales on guitar. Having drifted of into a semi-trance state, he heard an audible voice tell him to 'reverse the formula of the major scale'... At that time, he had no knowledge that the major scale had already been, what the musical world called 'mirrored'.
That very first step replicated how a major scale is mirrored. Not knowing that it had already been done was a blessing in disguise to him as he felt it was virgin ground that needed to be explored. Explore it he did. For the next 17 years he delved into a world of mirrored music, ancient history, math, geometry and science to develop the worlds first look into the Universal cycles on the 'other side'. A world of triangles, mating, interlocking and birthing in a dance of life.
He is also developer of the Mirromaker Software. This was developed along with Cliff Douse and Robert Tripp. It has helped artists such as Peter Gabriel on his UP Album. This same software was reviewed (in Keyboard Player Magazine) as a wondrous tool for the future generations.
Yes, I’m sure that all great breakthroughs were made by people hearing an “audible voice” while in a semi-trance.
Is your Mirrormaker software still around? I asked because when I searched for it, the only reference I found was on the page quoted above.
Then we have the rest to consider.
Link
QUOTE
Circle of Tones
The theory within this book boils down to two basic symbols. They stand for the unifying structure that exists within many natural systems, and not just music per se. The journey is about mapping the contraction/expansion principles within nature as expressed through music and numbers. These symbols can be musically stretched or compressed due to tempering, but will also appear within many non-musically related environments.
The theory within this book boils down to two basic symbols. They stand for the unifying structure that exists within many natural systems, and not just music per se. The journey is about mapping the contraction/expansion principles within nature as expressed through music and numbers. These symbols can be musically stretched or compressed due to tempering, but will also appear within many non-musically related environments.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Circle of Tones The theory within this book boils down to two basic symbols. They stand for the unifying structure that exists within many natural systems, and not just music per se. The journey is about mapping the contraction/expansion principles within nature as expressed through music and numbers. These symbols can be musically stretched or compressed due to tempering, but will also appear within many non-musically related environments. |
Each symbol is made up of two triangles of frequencies. One will be seen to be representative of a male triangle of frequencies, and the other as a female triangle of frequencies. These two symbols sum up many organic structures when one employs symmetrical reflection, where the organic structure is not seen as only a one-sided system, but one that holds its reflection in the mirror producing its partner. Whenever a mirror experiment on any organic structure is performed it will be seen that a male quality is on one side and it is partnered with a female quality on the other.
An introduction to Mode Boxes
Each Mode of the Major scale is mirrored and all 14 resulting scales are presented in a box like manner. An overall ‘mirror' structure is seen to be operating within these Mode Boxes. The results at the 45-degree angle of the Mode Box are focused on in an effort to explain why these mirror structures are occurring. This introduces the idea that the b5 position of a Major scale is an ‘invisible' axis point and that this point is catalyst to the formation of the mirror structures. Diagrams show how this is the case. The frequency numbers and colours of each pitch within a Mode Box are also added, as well as diagrams showing other ways to achieve one of the mirror Triangular structures that go on to produce the circle of tones, as shown in the symbols above.
The way the relationships are flowing both sides of the mirror can be summed up using this next image. Here the notes are replaced with seven colors. This is really how the fourteen modes are causing the 45-degree angle relationships. Going back to the above two symbols representing the circle of tones, it is these that are flowing across this angle on the left hand side.
QUOTE
A Mode Box is also drawn for the Fibonacci numbers, and exactly the same structure will appear along the 45-degree angle, giving this circle of tones structure much more credibility, and not some ‘accident' of Nature.
When this structure has been clearly set out there is then a focus on numbers, in order to show how this same structure resides there. Nine number sequences of what is known as a Vedic square are presented. Once these are shown there is a merging together of these sequences together with the major scale, and both a run in tandem.
When this structure has been clearly set out there is then a focus on numbers, in order to show how this same structure resides there. Nine number sequences of what is known as a Vedic square are presented. Once these are shown there is a merging together of these sequences together with the major scale, and both a run in tandem.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| A Mode Box is also drawn for the Fibonacci numbers, and exactly the same structure will appear along the 45-degree angle, giving this circle of tones structure much more credibility, and not some ‘accident' of Nature. When this structure has been clearly set out there is then a focus on numbers, in order to show how this same structure resides there. Nine number sequences of what is known as a Vedic square are presented. Once these are shown there is a merging together of these sequences together with the major scale, and both a run in tandem. |
More hidden sequences
Once the validity of the ‘mirror' structure is established a more in depth analysis is undertaken in order to marry both sides of the mirror together into one whole. A unique mirror point is discovered within the number sequence box, which is also displaying structure at its 45-degree angle. This will be seen as the Tonal Fountain, from which flows the perfect symmetry of the entire duality of forces, as represented in musical form and numbers.
There are more diagrams showing the flow of the Triangles within the circle of tones. A triangle wheel diagram is presented, as well as other diagrams depicting relationships at the central points of both scales and number sequences.
Eventually the reader will see that the numbers and music, taken as a whole, actually travel in and out of the mirror, one cycle this side and the next cycle the other side. This is a game between Light and Dark, and to do this the cycles employ the ‘invisible' axis point in order to swap sides. This axis point is at the 45-degree angle as well as a point called the 4.5, between the 4 th and 5 th position of a major scale. This carries many implications regarding the make-up of the universe, including how an electron spins half ‘this side' and half the ‘other side'.
The book contains many more diagrams that show how the mirror side is linked to the non-mirror by one unbroken thread. For the same structure to actually emerge when analyzing the Fibonacci numbers, or the I-Ching hexagrams, or the Tzolkin grid of the Mayans, is extremely uncanny, and can only lead to the conclusion that the circle of tones, as shown as a Star of David (or Merkaba) is really at the heart of the musical and numerological creation.
There are no complicated formulas expressed within this book. In fact the experiments are relatively simple; yet from this simplicity it becomes clear that one overall creative structure is at the heart of many other systems and the knowledge built on them.
So numerology, masculine and feminine triangles, Fibonacci numbers,the I-Ching hexagrams, the Tzolkin grid of the Mayans, and the Star of David and sound healing is supposed to be seen and taken as not being new age and as a legitimate pursuit of science?
You castigate science and scientists as having a faith, religion or making questionable claims while pushing claptrap like this as a serious scientific endeavor? I’ll stick to those whose research and endeavors are based upon non-mystical, rational, material and verifiable pursuits.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 31 2007, 06:26 PM)
I haven’t understood your claims because you have made generic pseudoscientific or new age claims only, nothing of substance.
You make claims about laws of harmony, yet cannot cite theses laws. You cannot cite any research facility or university pursuing this or the result of the work. You cited one university in the Ukraine and a Dr. who’s work in this field is tied to naturopathy, a know pseudoscience.
I ask about specific information about what energy you keep talking about and you give me a generic definition and cite multiple forms of energy, but have yet to explain the details of your claims. If you claim that thermal, mechanical, radioactive and electrical all work the same, then it is more claims of pseudoscience. You keep making generic claims but cannot provide specific details.
Since your book is currently not available, I searched for your name specifically. This is what I found.
Link
So it appears that what you are pushing is the new age pseudoscience I spoke of earlier. Then there is this.
Link
Yes, I’m sure that all great breakthroughs were made by people hearing an “audible voice” while in a semi-trance.
Is your Mirrormaker software still around? I asked because when I searched for it, the only reference I found was on the page quoted above.
Then we have the rest to consider.
Link
So numerology, masculine and feminine triangles, Fibonacci numbers,the I-Ching hexagrams, the Tzolkin grid of the Mayans, and the Star of David and sound healing is supposed to be seen and taken as not being new age and as a legitimate pursuit of science?
You castigate science and scientists as having a faith, religion or making questionable claims while pushing claptrap like this as a serious scientific endeavor? I’ll stick to those whose research and endeavors are based upon non-mystical, rational, material and verifiable pursuits.
[removed]
What you can't seem to handle is that everything I have said has been explained perfectly in my book, and isn't based on anything else but what is. Another thing you seem to be holding onto is that there are not appearing many abstracts from researchers coming out of universities, on subjects like energy exchange and wavelength relationships. I looked through about a dozen or more today.
I challenge you to find fault in what the book contains.
You are a typical conservative who is unable to see that there are many new insights coming into the fray, and you just want to throw you clever little words at people prepared to continue thinking. Darwin didn't have you attiitudfe, in fact none of the people that now make it possible for you to throw your narrow-minded mentality around had your attitude.
So, where is what I am saying falling at the seams dear Gene? You are indeed the man that is mumbo jumboing at the moment. And NO, I don't want to became another Gene versus Parsons long going argument. You have every right to express whatever you wish regarding me, but you can now F-Off.
I've posted the link to where the entire book is. If you can find an intellegent response as to what I am showing is not true, then feel free to do so.
If you want a copy of my software just ask. It only works on windows 98, and isn't available commercially anymore. What would you want to do with it anyway? It reverses the step sequence of music midi files, so you get a mirror tune, which can come out as a nice alternative idea for a composer to work on, or it can come out a bit too dissonant and so scrapped.
What I put forward in the book is based on verifiable formulas and grids. I don't have to say they are or are not true. As I said, get reading or shut up with your judgements. Let's see you debunk the information. I don't think you have the ability too. Ask a musician friend if you have one to do so. Ask anyone except that narrow-minded nozzle of yours dude.
You make claims about laws of harmony, yet cannot cite theses laws. You cannot cite any research facility or university pursuing this or the result of the work. You cited one university in the Ukraine and a Dr. who’s work in this field is tied to naturopathy, a know pseudoscience.
I ask about specific information about what energy you keep talking about and you give me a generic definition and cite multiple forms of energy, but have yet to explain the details of your claims. If you claim that thermal, mechanical, radioactive and electrical all work the same, then it is more claims of pseudoscience. You keep making generic claims but cannot provide specific details.
Since your book is currently not available, I searched for your name specifically. This is what I found.
Link
So it appears that what you are pushing is the new age pseudoscience I spoke of earlier. Then there is this.
Link
Yes, I’m sure that all great breakthroughs were made by people hearing an “audible voice” while in a semi-trance.
Is your Mirrormaker software still around? I asked because when I searched for it, the only reference I found was on the page quoted above.
Then we have the rest to consider.
Link
So numerology, masculine and feminine triangles, Fibonacci numbers,the I-Ching hexagrams, the Tzolkin grid of the Mayans, and the Star of David and sound healing is supposed to be seen and taken as not being new age and as a legitimate pursuit of science?
You castigate science and scientists as having a faith, religion or making questionable claims while pushing claptrap like this as a serious scientific endeavor? I’ll stick to those whose research and endeavors are based upon non-mystical, rational, material and verifiable pursuits.
[removed]
What you can't seem to handle is that everything I have said has been explained perfectly in my book, and isn't based on anything else but what is. Another thing you seem to be holding onto is that there are not appearing many abstracts from researchers coming out of universities, on subjects like energy exchange and wavelength relationships. I looked through about a dozen or more today.
I challenge you to find fault in what the book contains.
You are a typical conservative who is unable to see that there are many new insights coming into the fray, and you just want to throw you clever little words at people prepared to continue thinking. Darwin didn't have you attiitudfe, in fact none of the people that now make it possible for you to throw your narrow-minded mentality around had your attitude.
So, where is what I am saying falling at the seams dear Gene? You are indeed the man that is mumbo jumboing at the moment. And NO, I don't want to became another Gene versus Parsons long going argument. You have every right to express whatever you wish regarding me, but you can now F-Off.
I've posted the link to where the entire book is. If you can find an intellegent response as to what I am showing is not true, then feel free to do so.
If you want a copy of my software just ask. It only works on windows 98, and isn't available commercially anymore. What would you want to do with it anyway? It reverses the step sequence of music midi files, so you get a mirror tune, which can come out as a nice alternative idea for a composer to work on, or it can come out a bit too dissonant and so scrapped.
What I put forward in the book is based on verifiable formulas and grids. I don't have to say they are or are not true. As I said, get reading or shut up with your judgements. Let's see you debunk the information. I don't think you have the ability too. Ask a musician friend if you have one to do so. Ask anyone except that narrow-minded nozzle of yours dude.
Temper temper... Maybe you need to shake off those bad vibrations.
Whatever.
Anyway, you do play a mean guitar. (I found your version of Still Got The Blues on YouTube.)
Whatever.
Anyway, you do play a mean guitar. (I found your version of Still Got The Blues on YouTube.)
QUOTE (gmilam+Jul 31 2007, 08:18 PM)
Temper temper... Maybe you need to shake off those bad vibrations.
Whatever.
Anyway, you do play a mean guitar. (I found your version of Still Got The Blues on YouTube.)
Cheers very much. I got nothing to hide.:-)
Whatever.
Anyway, you do play a mean guitar. (I found your version of Still Got The Blues on YouTube.)
Cheers very much. I got nothing to hide.:-)
Again, typical. You have to resort to profanity and dismissal to those who challenge what you cannot support or defend.
And again, it is not up to me to disprove your book or theories. It fall upon you to provide support and prove it.
I seriously doubt any university is researching masculine and/or feminine triangles or any of the other numerological subjects you have claimed.
You invoke the name of Darwin as if what you are pursuing is equal to his work? The reason Darwin is held to such regard is that his revolutionary theory stood up to test after test by his scientific peers. If this was the same case with what you propose, then why would you be pushing your book on an internet discussion forum rather than to universities and facilities that could not only research what you claim, but benefit from just such research?
New insights are one thing but using the pseudoscience is quite another. Why not submit your material to AAAS, Scientific America or similar scientific publication for review? I’m sure that once the experts connected to these organizations will no doubt back you up and silence any questions from skeptics like me once and for all.
You call me conservative? This coming from the person who thinks that evolution should not be taught in schools? And after such a stand, a person who invokes the name of Darwin to bolster his argument.
And again, it is not up to me to disprove your book or theories. It fall upon you to provide support and prove it.
I seriously doubt any university is researching masculine and/or feminine triangles or any of the other numerological subjects you have claimed.
You invoke the name of Darwin as if what you are pursuing is equal to his work? The reason Darwin is held to such regard is that his revolutionary theory stood up to test after test by his scientific peers. If this was the same case with what you propose, then why would you be pushing your book on an internet discussion forum rather than to universities and facilities that could not only research what you claim, but benefit from just such research?
New insights are one thing but using the pseudoscience is quite another. Why not submit your material to AAAS, Scientific America or similar scientific publication for review? I’m sure that once the experts connected to these organizations will no doubt back you up and silence any questions from skeptics like me once and for all.
You call me conservative? This coming from the person who thinks that evolution should not be taught in schools? And after such a stand, a person who invokes the name of Darwin to bolster his argument.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 31 2007, 09:56 PM)
Again, typical. You have to resort to profanity and dismissal to those who challenge what you cannot support or defend.
And again, it is not up to me to disprove your book or theories. It fall upon you to provide support and prove it.
I seriously doubt any university is researching masculine and/or feminine triangles or any of the other numerological subjects you have claimed.
You invoke the name of Darwin as if what you are pursuing is equal to his work? The reason Darwin is held to such regard is that his revolutionary theory stood up to test after test by his scientific peers. If this was the same case with what you propose, then why would you be pushing your book on an internet discussion forum rather than to universities and facilities that could not only research what you claim, but benefit from just such research?
New insights are one thing but using the pseudoscience is quite another. Why not submit your material to AAAS, Scientific America or similar scientific publication for review? I’m sure that once the experts connected to these organizations will no doubt back you up and silence any questions from skeptics like me once and for all.
You call me conservative? This coming from the person who thinks that evolution should not be taught in schools? And after such a stand, a person who invokes the name of Darwin to bolster his argument.
My answers are in the other post I just sent. Now when did I say evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Another misrepresentation from good ol you?
I mentioned Darwin and others like him because he was the kind of man I really admire. Whereas those that would have scorned him would have demanded the source of his claims and told him he was way out of step. It's those that think outside the box that lead to those eventually stuck in the box. Little contributions are all that are needed in order to spark off another direction. Students nowadays are not the same as they were in the 1950's. They swear and cuss, get out of their heads, but are little geniuses nevertheless. They do dare to keep thinking "what if", and sometimes it is a continuation of what is firmly established put very "scientifically", and sometimes it comes from an outside source in order to bring a new insight. We live in an age where insights are becoming very frequent. Something is changing. The old is about to be replaced yet again, but not with the frustrated meanderings of weird ladies channelling aliens and claiming to heal you through the ethers.:-)
And again, it is not up to me to disprove your book or theories. It fall upon you to provide support and prove it.
I seriously doubt any university is researching masculine and/or feminine triangles or any of the other numerological subjects you have claimed.
You invoke the name of Darwin as if what you are pursuing is equal to his work? The reason Darwin is held to such regard is that his revolutionary theory stood up to test after test by his scientific peers. If this was the same case with what you propose, then why would you be pushing your book on an internet discussion forum rather than to universities and facilities that could not only research what you claim, but benefit from just such research?
New insights are one thing but using the pseudoscience is quite another. Why not submit your material to AAAS, Scientific America or similar scientific publication for review? I’m sure that once the experts connected to these organizations will no doubt back you up and silence any questions from skeptics like me once and for all.
You call me conservative? This coming from the person who thinks that evolution should not be taught in schools? And after such a stand, a person who invokes the name of Darwin to bolster his argument.
My answers are in the other post I just sent. Now when did I say evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Another misrepresentation from good ol you?
I mentioned Darwin and others like him because he was the kind of man I really admire. Whereas those that would have scorned him would have demanded the source of his claims and told him he was way out of step. It's those that think outside the box that lead to those eventually stuck in the box. Little contributions are all that are needed in order to spark off another direction. Students nowadays are not the same as they were in the 1950's. They swear and cuss, get out of their heads, but are little geniuses nevertheless. They do dare to keep thinking "what if", and sometimes it is a continuation of what is firmly established put very "scientifically", and sometimes it comes from an outside source in order to bring a new insight. We live in an age where insights are becoming very frequent. Something is changing. The old is about to be replaced yet again, but not with the frustrated meanderings of weird ladies channelling aliens and claiming to heal you through the ethers.:-)
I have written to people at univercities. I struck a nice friendship with one or two back in 2003. Other people who give lectures in certain fields have written me and thanked me for providing the info free and that they look forward to reading more of the book.
I don't mind having to share wherever I want to. I appreciate that, it's up to me as you say. Youtube next.;-) I might wear some rainbow trousers.:-)
I don't mind having to share wherever I want to. I appreciate that, it's up to me as you say. Youtube next.;-) I might wear some rainbow trousers.:-)
QUOTE (Mirrorman+)
My answers are in the other post I just sent. Now when did I say evolution shouldn't be taught in schools? Another misrepresentation from good ol you?
Another? Like you have cited any to begin with. You posted this and I even asked for clarification. I may have overlooked it, but I don’t remember seeing a reply.
In subsequent posts, you back peddled a bit on what you meant, but then again, you think that teaching evolution without some flavors of ID included is not to be done.
The theory of evolution has not place for, nor should it, the idea of a consciousness or creator guiding the process. This is no deferent than ID and CS claims.
You may consider this a “conservative” aspect or view, but it is simply a fact of how science operates in general. Science can only address that which can be studied and verified in regards to evolution. In all the disciplines of science that add to the knowledge and facts that support evolution, nothing supports the notion of a guiding intelligence or consciousness. The appearance of design has been addressed by others.
Just go to the IC thread.
Yes, I do think every angle regarding the pros and cons of certian aspects of the evolution theory should be given a fair hearing. Absoluteley. Children should be given that choice.
Now you say science can only be something that can be studied and verified. Which sounds great as an ideal, until humans insert their own beliefs and promote their own ideals. Can't have that now can we.
Another? Like you have cited any to begin with. You posted this and I even asked for clarification. I may have overlooked it, but I don’t remember seeing a reply.
QUOTE (Mirrorman+)
And I fully support the latest evolution theories to be left out of school.:-) Another Brick in the Wall, generally producing no more than robots.
In subsequent posts, you back peddled a bit on what you meant, but then again, you think that teaching evolution without some flavors of ID included is not to be done.
The theory of evolution has not place for, nor should it, the idea of a consciousness or creator guiding the process. This is no deferent than ID and CS claims.
You may consider this a “conservative” aspect or view, but it is simply a fact of how science operates in general. Science can only address that which can be studied and verified in regards to evolution. In all the disciplines of science that add to the knowledge and facts that support evolution, nothing supports the notion of a guiding intelligence or consciousness. The appearance of design has been addressed by others.
In subsequent posts, you back peddled a bit on what you meant, but then again, you think that teaching evolution without some flavors of ID included is not to be done.
The theory of evolution has not place for, nor should it, the idea of a consciousness or creator guiding the process. This is no deferent than ID and CS claims.
You may consider this a “conservative” aspect or view, but it is simply a fact of how science operates in general. Science can only address that which can be studied and verified in regards to evolution. In all the disciplines of science that add to the knowledge and facts that support evolution, nothing supports the notion of a guiding intelligence or consciousness. The appearance of design has been addressed by others.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Jul 31 2007, 11:59 PM)
In subsequent posts, you back peddled a bit on what you meant, but then again, you think that teaching evolution without some flavors of ID included is not to be done.
The theory of evolution has not place for, nor should it, the idea of a consciousness or creator guiding the process. This is no deferent than ID and CS claims.
You may consider this a “conservative” aspect or view, but it is simply a fact of how science operates in general. Science can only address that which can be studied and verified in regards to evolution. In all the disciplines of science that add to the knowledge and facts that support evolution, nothing supports the notion of a guiding intelligence or consciousness. The appearance of design has been addressed by others.
Just go to the IC thread.
Yes, I do think every angle regarding the pros and cons of certian aspects of the evolution theory should be given a fair hearing. Absoluteley. Children should be given that choice.
Now you say science can only be something that can be studied and verified. Which sounds great as an ideal, until humans insert their own beliefs and promote their own ideals. Can't have that now can we.
I'll reply in the other thread then.
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Jul 31 2007, 12:23 PM)
(SNIP) I'd like to repsect PuckSR's request not to go off tangent with this thread, so maybe another thread can be started regarding this stuff. (SNoP)
Go for it, & please .....either.... link it, or PM me, to let me know, thanks!
So to address the original topic PuckSR wanted to discuss, it appeasers that any miracle discussed so far is well within the realm of a natural occurrence.
The cases of miraculous healing(s) would be support for this and the lack of any historical evidence that and deity has regenerated a lost limb or digit.
The cases of miraculous healing(s) would be support for this and the lack of any historical evidence that and deity has regenerated a lost limb or digit.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Aug 1 2007, 10:45 AM)
it appeasers that any miracle discussed so far is well within the realm of a natural occurrence.
O.K. Means Miracles Occur as a 'Natural Consequence'.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Aug 1 2007, 10:45 AM)
The cases of miraculous healing(s) would be support for this and the lack of any historical evidence that and deity has regenerated a lost limb or digit.
That has got to be about the most inanely redundant statement that (I) read in these forums ....so far.
The lack of historical evidence, you mean like Film? or Pictures? News-reels??
Do you know what you are talking about?
Evidence is there, you simply cannot accept another persons word.
(Most likely a Measure of the value of yours)
The lack of historical evidence, you mean like Film? or Pictures? News-reels??
Do you know what you are talking about?
Evidence is there, you simply cannot accept another persons word.
(Most likely a Measure of the value of yours)
Overlooking your continued habit of selective quotation and misrepresentation, historical as in recorded in mankind’s history. We have arguable references in the xian bible but no other reference to any case where a limb, digit or other amputation was ever healed as in the restoration of that limb.
If the evidence of such an event is there, then present it.
If the evidence of such an event is there, then present it.
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