I was watching some interesting videos over the Internet, and thought i should post these videos here for some other opinions.
first one talks more about real physics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBGeoLf5X8and the second one talks about mind over matter(more interesting one actually)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnEGu8VF8Yas the second video shows, it is actually no way of proving matter, the world could easily be only one complicated perception.
couple of questions/ideas ive had before watching this video, and still remain.
*) Is it possible to prove that everybody see(perceive) the light the same way, e.g does everybody see sky as blue and blood as red? i could see blood as black and somebody else could see it as purple, it only depends how our brain interprets certain light-waves.
*) Which causes which, thought causes electric impulses in our brain or vise versa.
If though comes before the electric impulses then it clearly shows that mind can alter matter, maybe even create it.
*) The example in the video about the dream is really scary. I say scary cos i have experienced something like that once in my life. I saw a dream, woke up, brushed my teeth, drank my coffee, went to the buss, drove to work and BANG i heard alarm clock, the world i thought to be real, was a dream. I woke up, it was a double dream.
Ive had it only once, but since that was so real,so real that i couldnt make the difference, it makes me think about things like this(and idealism) more seriously.
has anybody else had any similar dream-like experiences.
*) Can the water molecules be effected with thought/emotion. This question came after watching similar videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SpEQeI9Zecthere are many more.
*) is it possible you to find/determine the location of your conscious by looking for the point where the senses are created. The source of your sight, hearing etc.
I once tried finding the point where the sound was coming from(in my head, not in the headphones).Eventually i almost found it.It was one of the scariest experiences ive had. I suddenly got paralyzed,blacked out, as if i was imprisoned in my own head. Its weird to thing but the sound you hear doesnt come from speakers, but from your head. Speakers only make the air-waves. so, even if you hear something far-far away, try to find the source of this sound in your head.
Anyway, im not expecting some math formulas and laws of physics as your reply, more of reasoning.
Great post. I enjoyed the videos as well.
I don't think it's "all illusion" as much as a rather unbounded and finely detailed reality being filtered by conscious perceptions and understanding into a structure that appears to possess quite holographic features. Whatever experiences someone has are entirely "real" in that reality is ultimately subjective (it's ironic that subjective reality is actually the tangible version and not the assumed truth of an objective version of it - the existance of an objective reality that differed from immediate subjective observations is quite similar to expecting someone to believe in the objective existance of an intangible being).
I also don't believe there's much use in saying we directly create reality from thought because there's a vicious cycle in that you couldn't deterministically construct anything beyond what you already possess (if you create something that's not a part of you, there's really no way to control it - if we look at it from an information perspective, if we have X units of information that define "self" and we then attempt to add Y units of information to define the larger structure (self+creation), it should require greater than X units of information to do this, which does arise from X units of information, without new information being injected, which, rather by definition, is not a part of self - so growth is inherently uncontrollable though I see "will" as a process of integration of effectively new and random information into ones self.
I enjoyed the first link that referenced some of the ideas regarding fractals and chaos as these do appear quite relevant to how a smaller quantity of information that defines our perceptions and conscious understanding/sensations can be superimposed upon the properties of a larger external reality - the commonalities of physical laws and matter appear most likely defined by properties inherent to individuals which exist similar to a filter through which physical reality is interpreted, though it's interesting to consider to what extent physical laws are a product of statistical properties derived from the aggregate influence of a large collection of physical laws, versus precisely predictable and deterministic interactions (the statistical effects could actually represent a large number of physical forces and properties that haven't been untangled as of yet, whereas the precisely deterministic physical laws have no uncertainty - for example, most electromagnetic interactions appear discrete and likely fundamentally predictable, though with observer uncertainty over the information presented, whereas gravitational force appears likely to be a statistical diffusion to space that could arise from the aggregate influences of a very large number of physical properties that we only experience the net influence of - the trend in physics has been one of continually finding new an subtle forces and interactions that had previously existed as part of another more obvious and stronger force).
There are fundamental rules for cognition itself and they appear rather simple and are universal to physics as they must be in order that we can understand any of our experiences. Objective reality is a process of bidirectional communication and if you want to communicate with something you need to both have a set of rules by which you transmit information as well as a consistant manner in which that information is transformed externally and then received back. Such deterministic processes in themselves do not create information though but simply transform the representation of already existing or "randomly created" (which is a great subject as to how randomness can exist and what properties should something truely random possess, I don't think there's a single model of "existance" that effectively include such an unknown input of information as a source - logic molds it into specific forms with specific properties, but neither pure randomness nor pure logic in themselves are capable of creating both time and rules by which things change and it appears that time is likely infinite and ultimately defined by an unbounded number of properties and experiences - if you attempt to place a boundary to experiences, then at some point there must be an end and that all experiences could be encapsulated in X moments of time, but in order to select one of these moments, you need additional information outside of those X moments to point to which is the current moment and that information resides outside X, so X cannot encapsulate subjective time - or maybe another example would of watching a spinning ball - the perception of time does not arise from the rotation of the ball itself because a ball needs something external and stationary relative to it in order to determine it to be rotating - imagine a universe with only a spinning ball - from any perspective within the ball itself, there is no way to determine the ball to be spinning as all angles of rotation appear identical from any point within the ball, instead it requires an external "non rotating" object exist, but even this isn't sufficient as it requires a manner to count rotations and denote rotation #1 and rotation #2 etc. and these counts are not inherent to the ball but to states of an observer denoting a rotation as #1 or #2 etc., so the rotation is determined by the observation of it which extends to properties beyond the rotation of the ball itself and the same would be true for ideas of a cyclic universe - if the universe were closed and finite, then it would have to either repeat or end as there would only be a finite number of permutations of the information possible to construct from that finite system. In that case, we could rule out the possibility of repeating universe, because we'd be required to then append additional information to the universe after one repetition to denote a moment of time as residing within one repetition or another, which is not something definable from within the universe itself (if it repeated a second time, then some state would need to be different to designate it as a second iteration of the universe, but because it's closed, that state would have already have been defined in the first pass, hence it's impossible to encapsulate continual repetitions within a finite system), the idea of the universe having a beginning or end is a bit harder to analyze for me, but a few notes - it implies there's something beyond the universe to constrain it to existing within a finite boundary of time - which effectively, for an observer, means that they can/will only experience, or be able to differentiate between X number of states in sequential order and those states must include memory as well, as we could interleave those X states an infinite number of ways over time, that along with memory would allow for an infinite number of historical sequences to exist, and so those X states must possess both the memories of prior states as well as a pointer to the next state, but this still leaves the problem of those states not being able to define which is the current/present state/moment from within the system. Though if we had only a finite physical ability to distinguish between physical states, then only a finite number of possible moments should be able to be physically experienced (if we ignore memory and context outside a moment - which is difficult to do as a recognition of moments is constructed via. memory) - anyway, if physical senses and memory are ultimately constrained, then only a finite number of physical experiences should be possible to differentiate between and the universe could only be experienced over a finite time, though it's quite possible that conscious perceptions are ultimately unbounded, but I've still been trying to find whether or not this must be true - the infinitely cyclic yet finite universe model doesn't work, but it's more difficult for me to find a simple and obvious reason why the start/end version couldn't be true - in order for it there not to be an end, it would appear conscious experiences would have to potentially encompass an infinite number of distinct possible states, which would appear to require either an infinite memory or infinite sensory capability - which is not necessarily impossible from a typical perspective if there is a manner in which conscious qualities of perceptions are unbounded - in which case a finite amount of physical information can occur within an infinite number of possible conscious qualities surrounding them)
QUOTE (Trout+)
This is easily testable by asking people to match the respective color.
How do you know that everyone consciously senses, for example, green photoreceptor excitations in the same manner, or how could it be shown that the emotion of happiness was felt in the same manner between different people etc.
These conscious perceptions are intangible. You can show something that you consider to be blue, and I can look at it and try to imitate your designation by calling it "blue" as well, but that doesn't mean that we're actually consciously experiencing the same thing.
As a more concrete example, take an example of someone being tone deaf or color blind or dyslexic etc. In these cases the differences in conscious experiences is physically detectable though you could likely spend most of a day with someone with varying degrees of each of these and never be able to even guess that they aren't experiencing the "universe" in the same manner, though if we, for example had someone with green and red swapped in their conscious perceptions, they would see red and green and visa versa or purple as cyan and visa versa, yet there would be no physical manner in which to determine such a difference, or if whatever conscious interfaces to/from the brain were reversed in the left and right hemispheres, they would perceive a left/right reversal in their experiences but with no externally determinable manner to detect this (if they weren't consistant in this reversal, then occasional inversions, similar to dyslexia could occur).
QUOTE (Trout+)
Sure is: a number of subjects are asked to use a computerized additive color system (R,G, in order to match the color of a given object. At the end of the test, the system provides a numerical value for each component , very much like the compuetrized systems used to match colors at the paint shops.
How about we simply ask people what color they saw? If they said "blue" then they must have all seen the same thing, correct?
Or how about this example - you can take an audio or video file and compress out generally over 90% of the "raw" information content and have people effectively unable to distinguish between the compressed and uncompressed versions, yet theoretically the two versions are not the same, but consciously there is not sufficient precision to differentiate between the two forms. People don't see what's actually there, but what they interprete to be there. There are many optical illusions that demonstrate this as well, but this isn't directly related as his point was that there's no physical manner to witness someone elses conscious perceptions - people have their own and make various guesses as to how similar/dissimilar such are for others.
Trout
30th June 2008 - 12:41 AM
QUOTE (StevenA+Jun 29 2008, 06:44 AM)
How about we simply ask people what color they saw? If they said People don't see what's actually there, but what they interprete to be there.
You can do that as well. But the computerized test takes out any shred of subjectivity. It also shows that a large population of subjects match the colors the same way with a very high degree of precision.
QUOTE
Or how about this example - you can take an audio or video file and compress out generally over 90% of the "raw" information content and have people effectively unable to distinguish between the compressed and uncompressed versions,
Huh? The compressed version is totally different from the original, what are you talking about?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Or how about this example - you can take an audio or video file and compress out generally over 90% of the "raw" information content and have people effectively unable to distinguish between the compressed and uncompressed versions, |
Huh? The compressed version is totally different from the original, what are you talking about?
yet theoretically the two versions are not the same, but consciously
there is not sufficient precision to differentiate
You do not understand compression, you are just blowing smoke. Ever looked at an mpeg stream? Obviously not.
StevenA
30th June 2008 - 01:57 AM
QUOTE (Trout+)
You can do that as well. But the computerized test takes out any shred of subjectivity. It also shows that a large population of subjects match the colors the same way with a very high degree of precision.
This computerized test does nothing to determine what color a person actually sees and you continue to miss this point. As I said, a simple example is of someone who is color blind - your interpretation of the test would be that they were seeing the same when it would be physically impossible for them to be doing so, so you're not addressing the correct subject here.
QUOTE (Trout+)
Huh? The compressed version is totally different from the original, what are you talking about?
This is because we have external machines give us indications that they differ (different versions were intentionally constructed and veried to be different via. external means), we might assume some people with slightly better perceptions could notice a difference where someelse wouldn't and so the same/similar physical information is no consciously experienced in the same manner. Also consider that for the laws of physics or properties of matter etc., we don't have such a machine to tell us whether or not we're viewing a compressed and humanly compressible form of those laws, and there would be no reason to assume that the complexity of physical laws we detect and interact with could be any greater than our ability to do so.
QUOTE (Trout+)
You do not understand compression, you are just blowing smoke. Ever looked at an mpeg stream? Obviously not.
I've actually written compression engines before. I'm very familiar with the idea. Go back and reread the comments people have made to you and you'll recognize that you haven't been discussion the intended subject of this thread.
Trout
30th June 2008 - 02:07 AM
QUOTE (StevenA+Jun 30 2008, 01:57 AM)
This computerized test does nothing to determine what color a person actually sees and you continue to miss this point..
No, you are missing the point, the intent was to determine to what extent various observers agree on what they see. Reading and comprehension are not your forte.
QUOTE
I've actually written compression engines before. I'm very familiar with the idea.
I am quite sure u are lying, if you did, you'd have known that you posted a stupidity. Trying to cover it with lies would not work.
Delia
30th June 2008 - 02:20 AM
I agree with Trout, especially as I work in the pharmacuetical industry where drugs/excipients etc degrade during stability studies, where often a slight colour change is clear indication of molecular instability.
We use tristimulus spectral analysis to totally remove the risk of any erroneous human subjectivity/perception:
Tristimulus.
scorpion9
30th June 2008 - 12:16 PM
As far as i know, there is no way determining what color a person sees.
dont take any shades/mixed colors, take 3 basic colors. if you swap them for one person from birth, you will never find it out.
the words red-green-blue only represent the wave-length. if you ask someone to describe the color of his blood, he says red. By saying red he means wave length of approximately 700nm, not how he perceive it, he might as well perceive it as "black".
"No, you are missing the point, the intent was to determine to what extent various observers agree on what they see. Reading and comprehension are not your forte. "
Dont get how this kind of test proves what color somebody sees.
is it like so:
you show a person a wavelength of 620 and ask what they see?
they will say it looks something like red(something like 700nm)
no matter what color you ask a person to describe, they will use words of other known colors to describe what they see. so they are actually describing resemblance to some other wavelength.
so it is obvious that majority describes 620 to be redish(closer to 700nm), and some might say its closer to 570nm(yellow), here comes the difference. thats all you can test.
dwk
30th June 2008 - 02:45 PM
But I'm a real scientist, and I love all this mind over matter stuff!
OP what are you talking about?
Enthalpy
30th June 2008 - 03:48 PM
Mind Over Matter works each time I move my hands.
Morris
2nd July 2008 - 05:09 AM
QUOTE
Sure is: a number of subjects are asked to use a computerized additive color system (R,G,cool.gif in order to match the color of a given object. At the end of the test, the system provides a numerical value for each component , very much like the compuetrized systems used to match colors at the paint shops.
You are wrong, but Scorpion said everything already. And this problem goes far beyond colors, the same could be said for shapes, but in this case the scientific zealots usually try to give mathematical arguments to "support" their geometric perception which is amazingly naive.
Sandra doliak
2nd July 2008 - 09:36 AM
QUOTE (scorpion9+Jun 28 2008, 10:06 PM)
I was watching some interesting videos over the Internet, and thought i should post these videos here for some other opinions.
first one talks more about real physics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBGeoLf5X8and the second one talks about mind over matter(more interesting one actually)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnEGu8VF8Yas the second video shows, it is actually no way of proving matter, the world could easily be only one complicated perception.
couple of questions/ideas ive had before watching this video, and still remain.
*) Is it possible to prove that everybody see(perceive) the light the same way, e.g does everybody see sky as blue and blood as red? i could see blood as black and somebody else could see it as purple, it only depends how our brain interprets certain light-waves.
*) Which causes which, thought causes electric impulses in our brain or vise versa.
If though comes before the electric impulses then it clearly shows that mind can alter matter, maybe even create it.
*) The example in the video about the dream is really scary. I say scary cos i have experienced something like that once in my life. I saw a dream, woke up, brushed my teeth, drank my coffee, went to the buss, drove to work and BANG i heard alarm clock, the world i thought to be real, was a dream. I woke up, it was a double dream.
Ive had it only once, but since that was so real,so real that i couldnt make the difference, it makes me think about things like this(and idealism) more seriously.
has anybody else had any similar dream-like experiences.
*) Can the water molecules be effected with thought/emotion. This question came after watching similar videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SpEQeI9Zecthere are many more.
*) is it possible you to find/determine the location of your conscious by looking for the point where the senses are created. The source of your sight, hearing etc.
I once tried finding the point where the sound was coming from(in my head, not in the headphones).Eventually i almost found it.It was one of the scariest experiences ive had. I suddenly got paralyzed,blacked out, as if i was imprisoned in my own head. Its weird to thing but the sound you hear doesnt come from speakers, but from your head. Speakers only make the air-waves. so, even if you hear something far-far away, try to find the source of this sound in your head.
Anyway, im not expecting some math formulas and laws of physics as your reply, more of reasoning.
QUOTE
The example in the video about the dream is really scary. I say scary cos i have experienced something like that once in my life. I saw a dream, woke up, brushed my teeth, drank my coffee, went to the buss, drove to work and BANG i heard alarm clock, the world i thought to be real, was a dream. I woke up, it was a double dream.
This is good.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The example in the video about the dream is really scary. I say scary cos i have experienced something like that once in my life. I saw a dream, woke up, brushed my teeth, drank my coffee, went to the buss, drove to work and BANG i heard alarm clock, the world i thought to be real, was a dream. I woke up, it was a double dream. |
This is good.
Which causes which, thought causes electric impulses in our brain or vise versa.
This is good.
QUOTE
Is it possible to prove that everybody see(perceive) the light the same way, e.g does everybody see sky as blue and blood as red? i could see blood as black and somebody else could see it as purple, it only depends how our brain interprets certain light-waves.
This is called perceptive reality. It is relatevistic to the observer. If you know relativity, you would already have answered your own question...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to prove that everybody see(perceive) the light the same way, e.g does everybody see sky as blue and blood as red? i could see blood as black and somebody else could see it as purple, it only depends how our brain interprets certain light-waves. |
This is called perceptive reality. It is relatevistic to the observer. If you know relativity, you would already have answered your own question...
Can the water molecules be effected with thought/emotion.
This is downright stupid. You cannot. When was the last time you saw someone sitting, boiling water in a cup by just staring at it?
QUOTE
is it possible you to find/determine the location of your conscious by looking for the point where the senses are created. The source of your sight, hearing etc.
I once tried finding the point where the sound was coming from(in my head, not in the headphones).Eventually i almost found it.It was one of the scariest experiences ive had. I suddenly got paralyzed,blacked out, as if i was imprisoned in my own head. Its weird to thing but the sound you hear doesnt come from speakers, but from your head. Speakers only make the air-waves. so, even if you hear something far-far away, try to find the source of this sound in your head.
I find this hard to believe, for when somebody blacks out, chances are, he will forget what happened to him in the past few hours, possibly even a day or 2 depending on the time the brain was deprived of oxygen.
You have a point here and there. I love your recounts.
Perhaps a date?
Sandra
StevenA
2nd July 2008 - 07:24 PM
Consider that physical laws must have rules in order that physical objects remain persistant and coherent. A physical object that's persistant to you can't morph in unexpected ways relative to some unknown property or desire of something else, without the object not remaining physically persistant with respect to that attribute.
For example, let's say someone decided a cup of water should be wine instead and we assume, bingo, it's wine. The problem here is that someone else who possesses an internal reference for the laws of physics that they interact with, unless they had a similar ability at the same time to interact with the physics of that object that changed physical form, wouldn't be able to detect it as such - the laws of physics aren't detected from each other but interrelated - if every conscious desire or wish etc. by multiple observers/consciousnesses etc. in the universe could randomly morph it for everyone else, then there would be no persistant laws of physics left available for someone to perceive and learn to interact with their environment in the first place (or alternately we could say that they would have no control in their ability to construct those laws properties, if they were constantly deferred to being determined externally - and the laws of physics would become a pseudo-democratic process with likely the typical wars and power trips involved).
On the other hand, if everyone has a unique perception of what constitutes physical properties and laws and a unique internal observational perspective and memory, then changes in these perceptions do not inherently alter observations for someone else - who is similarly filtering, through their own internal perceptions, what information you present to them and visa versa.
As an analogy here, if a distant star provides a broad spectrum of white light, individuals can filter this spectrum to observe a rainbow of specific colors, without altering the external form of the star - heck, you could take a mirror and make the star move from your perspective and change shape, form and color etc., all without imposing a change of the perception of that star for someone else. Though you could not coherently communicate about these new "laws of physics", unless you happened to be talking to someone else who also had such a set of mirrors and color filters etc. (So you couldn't point to the star for someone else and have them see the same alterations in it as they wouldn't perceive these, nor would any alterations made internally be immediately obvious to anyone else, without either sharing a set of mirrors and color filters etc., though the communication of the general characteristics of such changes could be communicated in common between people with an ability to perceive how such changes occur).
So, there are some problems with many of the typical concepts of mind over matter as they aren't logically compatible with the typical universe of persistant physical laws, but within different contexts they could be possible, though these properties would appear unlikely to be physically communicable within the original universe (effectively it might be seen as an observer not remaining stationary but moving to a universe with different physical properties - of course, there's another potential paradox here with the idea of desires being sufficient to make the change without prior knowledge of those changes as a motion itself isn't sufficient to pick a specific direction, and still consider that not all such "motions" through a space describing physical properties would necessarily be possible if they don't allow for interim physical properties to remain persistant and without a manner to trace a path from here to there it would seem a manner of effectively teleporting to a point with unknown properties).
These are just some things to consider regarding the subject for anyone interested. I don't believe such things are inherently impossible, but on the other hand it doesn't seem wishful thinking is enough to do much of anything useful (depending upon how you define useful, though still some random exploration might be consider useful to determine a landscape ... then again, you need some landmarks to determine whether or not you're moving within such a virtual space).
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click
here.