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Roborro
I am trying to produce ice like the old days without electricity. I am trying to produce an endothermic reaction. I am trying to use house hold items but when I research what is used all I find is some chemical name that I think it will be hard to find where I live.

Can someone help me.


Thank you

Roborro
fizzeksman

.

Roborro... more information is necessary. What kind of energy source/s do you wish to use? What is your level of mechanical expertise? What are your mechanical resources? What is the average relative humidity where you live?
You can also do a "google search" on ice making and refrigeration cycles which may provide useful information for you.

Cheers

.
Roborro
Fizzeksman,

What I want to do is first find out what household materials I can use to turn water into ice. I found this little mixture:
Mixing barium hydroxide solid with ammonium chloride or ammonium thiocyanate
at room temperature leads to a spontaneous reaction that is so endothermic as to
cause water to freeze.
So I need to know where or do I need to change barium hydroxide, ammonium chloride into different products?

I want to take a BIG bowl filled with water add the above and place three different types of bowls on top of the mixture with water in it. I am testing which type of bowl ( glass, plastic, or metal) would freeze the water faster.

Palpatane
Do you know how they made ice "in the old days?" They let nature do the work.

In winter, teams of men and horses would go out onto local lakes and rivers and cut out blocks of ice.

They would store these in buildings with three foot thick walls (filled with sawdust), called "Ice houses."

The massive amount of ice and the heavy insulation kept the ice cold through the summer.
Paradox
QUOTE (Roborro+Jan 20 2007, 03:03 AM)
I am trying to produce ice like the old days without electricity. I am trying to produce an endothermic reaction. I am trying to use house hold items but when I research what is used all I find is some chemical name that I think it will be hard to find where I live.

Can someone help me.


Thank you

Roborro

I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR, BUT YOU MIGHT USE A GOOGLE SEARCH FOR "GAS REFRIGERATOR" TO GIVE YOU SOME IDEAS, NO ELECTRICITY NEEDED.
fizzeksman
.

Roborro.... Barium Hydroxide is not a household chemical and can be toxic if mishandled. The demonstration you wish to perform is a classic in high school chemistry labs..(check with the local chemistry teacher)... but should be performed under supervision of a competent supervisor at first.
An easy and safe demonstration of the endothermic reaction can be performed using citric acid and baking soda. The strength of the reaction is not as energetic as the one you named but can still demonstrate the principle.

Cheers

.
N O M
Once you have made your ice. You can easily make it even colder by mixing the ice with salt and/or alchohol. This can go as low as 0 Fahrenheit.
N O M
Here is an example of a safe endothermic reaction. It just involves sodium bicarbonate and citric acid. Don't know if it will cool enough to produce ice.
physicsguy
QUOTE (Palpatane+Jan 21 2007, 04:12 PM)
Do you know how they made ice "in the old days?"  They let nature do the work.

In winter, teams of men and horses would go out onto local lakes and rivers and cut out blocks of ice. 

They would store these in buildings with three foot thick walls (filled with sawdust), called "Ice houses." 

The massive amount of ice and the heavy insulation kept the ice cold through the summer.

Here you go again, speaking out of your defecating hole. You don’t have to try to pretend you
know everything. Really.

If those ancient people had listened to you, they would have been just as idiotic. I understand
that you can’t figure out what I am saying. And, as usual, when that happens you just make a
stupid smartasss remark, to hide your ignorance. Then get your equally annoying friends to back
you up.

If there were “local” lakes, why in the hell would these people go there to supposedly cut the ice.
They could make their own “lake” in their village. Which they did.

If you had a bit more knowledge, instead of textbook quoting all the time, you would have
known that the Persians were using ice a couple of thousand years ago. By having a very deep
enclosed “pool,” where they would fill with a foot or two of water every night, during the
winter. Making ice foot by foot. Then using the, at times 10 meters-thick, ice during the summer.
User posted image
They were called "Yakhchal". Yakh = Ice and Chal = Hole/Cavity, which, incidentally, is what they
call the Refrigerator even today. And, there is a picture of it.
SomeGuy
Physicsguy - That is very inaccurate. The Yakhchal was simply their equivalent of an icehouse. They still had to bring the ice into the building from elsewhere. Does it make sense to put water inside an insulated building to freeze it? How would the heat energy be removed from the water to freeze it?

In addition to that inaccuracy, does the fact that the Persians called their "icehouse" a Yakhchal mean that all ice made/stored in the "old days" was made in the same fashion? My own grandfather cut ice from rivers during the cold months just as Palpatane described above. Given the conditions “in the old days” there is bound to be many correct answers.

I am not sure if you are to be taken seriously or not. From the posts of yours I have read I would have to guess you are simply trying to see how long a person can post meaningless personal attacks before being banned. If so then you at least have some goal in mind when you post ill formed arguments based mostly on personal attacks. If this is not the case then you are a very sad specimen.
Ron
Back to the original topic,
Roborro, this link will help you understand how a refrigerator works. You'll need some ingenuity to make one with common stuff, but it should be possible.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator.htm

I'd have to think pretty hard myself, but I'd start by looking for liquids that boil below 32 deg F, and make some sort of compressor, and a coil to distribute the evaporated liquid.
Good luck,
Ron
N O M
QUOTE (SomeGuy+Jan 26 2007, 05:48 PM)
From the posts of yours I have read I would have to guess you are simply trying to see how long a person can post meaningless personal attacks before being banned. If so then you at least have some goal in mind when you post ill formed arguments based mostly on personal attacks. If this is not the case then you are a very sad specimen.

Took him just under 6 weeks last time.
His last incarnation was "Mediocre-Minded", and mostly posted on the Moon-Hoax thread. This life seems to be devoted to attacking his opponents from that thread.

If you think he is sad now, take a look at some of his posts in his last life. laugh.gif
Palpatane
QUOTE (physicsguy+Jan 26 2007, 05:08 AM)
Here you go again, speaking out of your defecating hole. You don’t have to try to pretend you
know everything. Really.

Blah, blah, blah . . . .

Did you finish your homework and clean your room like your mom asked?

physicsguy
QUOTE (SomeGuy+Jan 26 2007, 05:48 PM)
Physicsguy - That is very inaccurate.  The Yakhchal was simply their equivalent of an icehouse.  They still had to bring the ice into the building from elsewhere.  Does it make sense to put water inside an insulated building to freeze it?  How would the heat energy be removed from the water to freeze it?

In addition to that inaccuracy, does the fact that the Persians called their "icehouse" a Yakhchal mean that all ice made/stored in the "old days" was made in the same fashion?  My own grandfather cut ice from rivers during the cold months just as Palpatane described above.  Given the conditions “in the old days” there is bound to be many correct answers.

I am not sure if you are to be taken seriously or not.  From the posts of yours I have read I would have to guess you are simply trying to see how long a person can post meaningless personal attacks before being banned.  If so then you at least have some goal in mind when you post ill formed arguments based mostly on personal attacks.  If this is not the case then you are a very sad specimen.

Don’t worry about how I deal with certain posters here. Idiots have a say on everything, and
ridicule anyone not agreeing with them. They deserve no respect, and understand only the
language of insult. They also are very quick to run to the Moderator and whine like little boys.
You should see these pretentious individuals’ private messages to me. Insulting, stupid and
immature. Yet, they put on a facade of civility and constraint in the forum.


As for your question of how to bring water or freeze it, or remove the heat energy from the
water. The Persians/Iranians had that figured out 2,400 years ago.

Water from streams/rivers were redirected into the structure during the cold seasons, using
above and underground canals. And, poured of enough dept to be able to completely freeze
overnight.
User posted image
User posted image
Or if the river/stream was frozen, ice was cut and stored. The ice was also used for the making of
Faloodeh, the traditional Persian ice cream. Which is made even today in Iran, and is the
specialty in a town called Shiraz. Red Wine drinkers should be familiar with the Grapes from
Shiraz.

The subterranean space coupled with the thick heat-resistant construction material kept the
outside heat from reaching the interior space year round. These Yakhchals were an Iranian
invention and many remain standing that were built hundreds of years ago.

The Yakhchals were constructed with a special mortar, composed of sand, clay, egg whites,
lime, goat hair, and ash in specific proportions. Which was resistant to heat transfer, and was
thought to be completely water impenetrable. The space often contained a system of
windcatchers, to catch the slightest breeze and funnel it down through internal, vertically placed
wooded slats, that could easily bring temperatures inside the space down to frigid levels even in
summer days. As a result, the ice melted slowly and ice was available year-round.
User posted image
User posted image
N O M
QUOTE (physicsguy+Jan 28 2007, 11:39 AM)
Idiots have a say on everything, and ridicule anyone not agreeing with them. They deserve no respect, and understand only the language of insult.

Interesting point p-g.

I notice that you didn't manage to say anything other than an insult for your first 33 posts. Doesn't that define you as an idiot?


The Iranian angle does shed some light on your hatred of the US, and on your denial of the holocaust.
physicsguy
You never cease to show you utter ignorance throughout this forum. You are either the youngest m0r0n here, or just a m0r0n.
QUOTE
The Iranian angle does shed some light on your hatred of the US, and on your denial of
the holocaust.

The stupidity of concluding my nationality based on my knowledge of the Persian history is in par with your idiocy. What an idiot.
Your preoccupation with the Holocaust bullshiit is also due to your utter gullibility. not to mention your utter stupidity.
N O M
QUOTE (physicsguy+Jan 29 2007, 06:01 AM)
You never cease to show you utter ignorance throughout this forum. You are either the youngest m0r0n here, or just a m0r0n.

Please enlighten me. I'm not the one who claimed that the far side of the moon was permanently dark laugh.gif

Other members can judge my maturity for themselves.

QUOTE
Your preoccupation with the Holocaust bullshiit is also due to your utter gullibility. not to mention your utter stupidity.
I have no preoccupation with the holocaust. You brought it up as "the greatest hoax of the 20th century". You are the greatest joke of both centuries.

I don't claim you are Persian. They have too noble a past history for you to have shared it. I do think that you have fallen for the BS propaganda of the person currently oppressing the Iranian people, but then I have never suggested that you were intelligent.
N O M
You haven't actually answered the initial question with your history lesson p-g.

QUOTE
I am trying to produce an endothermic reaction. I am trying to use house hold items but when I research what is used all I find is some chemical name that I think it will be hard to find where I live.

I don't see any endothermic reaction in your answer. Granted while the ice is melting in that uninsulated building there is an endothermic reaction.
N O M
Sorry Roborro, about this thread turning into a flame war.

Our little spat with this troll has been going for a while and spanning several threads. It might get a bit messy, he starts to foam at the mouth as his arguments unravel.
MDT
One way to make ice involves using some ice to begin. It is part of the chilling catalytist. Here is what you do. Take a bucket of ice and submerge another bucket of cream into the ice. Add salt (NaCl) to the bottom bucket and mix the top bucket, the result is ice cream.

When salt mixes with ice the temperature goes down to 20F. The water on the second bucket only needs to ge to 32F to freeze. The cream and sugar cause a melting point depression, but ice cream will still form. This is a very old fashion way of making a flavorful ice treat.
physicsguy
QUOTE (N O M+Jan 29 2007, 09:19 AM)
Please enlighten me. I'm not the one who claimed that the far side of the moon was permanently dark :lol:


Nor was I, you idi0t. In fact it was YOU who claimed the nonsense, then tried to shift the blame. Every time you speak out of your asss, and you do that a lot, you show everyone your stupidity.


MDT

I think the task is to chemically achieve freezing of water. not, to make Ice cream.
NoCleverName
Just out of curiosity, p-g, are you Zereshk?
N O M
QUOTE (NoCleverName+Jan 30 2007, 04:00 AM)
Just out of curiosity, p-g, are you Zereshk?

I don't think you are going to get a reply from p-g. He has just blown chunks in another thread laugh.gif
NoCleverName
Too bad, I was hoping that I had actually tracked him down ... maybe when he reincarnates himself again.
N O M
I looked for "Zereshk" in the member list, but couldn't find it. Was this from another forum?

Unfortunately, anyone else who joins in the next few days is going to be suspected of being a new sock puppet for this troll. But it doesn't take him long before his true colours show through.
N O M
QUOTE (Roborro+Jan 21 2007, 04:00 PM)
What I want to do is first find out what household materials I can use to turn water into ice. I found this little mixture:
Mixing barium hydroxide solid with ammonium chloride or ammonium thiocyanate at room temperature leads to a spontaneous reaction that is so endothermic as to cause water to freeze.
So I need to know where or do I need to change barium hydroxide, ammonium chloride into different products?

I want to take a BIG bowl filled with water add the above and place three different types of bowls on top of the mixture with water in it. I am testing which type of bowl ( glass, plastic, or metal) would freeze the water faster.

I hadn't noticed this post, as I was distracted.

Roborro, you probably won't find any household chemicals that will do this. Endothermic reactions are relatively rare. The mixing of equal amounts of ice and salt will work for your experiment (though to be pedantic, it is a process rather than a reaction).

Just one helpful hint though. Water can be cooled to below 0C without freezing. This supercooling is a little unpredictable as it depends on how pure and how still your water is. To avoid this in your experiment, just add some small pieces of broken china to the water you want to freeze (though don't if you want to put it in a drink later).
NoCleverName
QUOTE (N O M+Jan 30 2007, 11:41 PM)
I looked for "Zereshk" in the member list, but couldn't find it. Was this from another forum?

"Zereshk" is an author of several wiki articles ... who seems to fit the profile of M-M/PG ... and my apologies to "Z" if he is not also M-M/PG.
N O M
I just looked Zereshk up in Wikipedia. Doesn't look like our troll "friend" at all as Zereshk seems quite literate and educated.
Though Zereshk does say this
QUOTE
But frankly, I still dont know my head from my butt.
The description fits p-g/mediocre well, but he would never admit to it. biggrin.gif
Zephir
Solar refrigerator...

User posted image
MDT
The request was for an old fashion way to make ice. Ice cream is mostly water and therefore ice. Ice cream is harder to make than ice with this method. If one can do a more difficult task with a method, the simpler task much also work.

Another method is connected to entropy expansion. Take a large tank of gas and evacuate it on a muggy day, ice will appear on the valve. That is how refrigeration works. The compressor compresses a gas (refrigerant), the heat is removed, so the compressed gas cools. Then the gas refrigerant is entropy expanded, getting real cold. One can run a refrig cycle with solar energy. Or one can run just the compressor, allow the gas to cool naturally, and then expand the gas. Not as efficient but still works.
bulluwagger
You can make ice without refrigeration. Actually, it is interesting that this technology is mentioned in ancient Persia. I am from India, and I know that Indians used to make ice successfully. I came across some british archives which mentioned that.
Here are the links. (I can not post link as I am a new member, but PM me, and i will send those out)

Interesting account of how Indians used to make ice without refrigeration in 1850


They can produce ices at any season, by saltpetre, which is here abundant
and procured at a small price; but strange as it may appear, considering
the climate, we have regular collections of ice made in January, in most
of the stations in the Upper Provinces, generally under the
superintendence of an English gentleman, who condescends to be the
comptroller. The expenses are paid by subscribers, who, according to the
value of their subscription, are entitled to a given quantity of ice, to
be conveyed by each person's servant from the deposit an hour before
day-break, in baskets made for the purpose well wadded with cotton and
woollen blankets; conveyed home, the basket is placed where neither air
nor light can intrude. Zinc bottles, filled with pure water, are placed
round the ice in the basket, and the water is thus cooled for the day's
supply, an indulgence of great value to the sojourners in the East.

The method of collecting ice is tedious and laborious, but where labour is
cheap and the hands plenty the attempt has always been repaid by the
advantages. As the sun declines, the labourers commence their work; flat
earthen platters are laid out, in exposed situations, in square
departments, upon dried sugar-cane leaves very lightly spread, that the
frosty air may pass inside the platters. A small quantity of water is
poured into the platter; as fast as they freeze their contents are
collected and conveyed, during the night, to the pit prepared for the
reception of ice. The rising sun disperses the labourers with the ice, and
they seek their rest by day, and return again to their employ; as the lion,
when the sun disappears, prowls out to seek his food from the bounty of
his Creator. The hoar frost seldom commences until the first of January,
and lasts throughout that month.
radiant
Strangely you can create ice at night in Arizona at 51F by dripping water on to a roof in still air and 25% humidity.

This NightCooling has been studied by the university of florida and is already been used to cool houses in many US locations simply by allowing the air inside the building to come into circulating contact with the cool metal roof. Google nightcool.

The principal is that at night any object can radiate heat energy towards the much cooler temperature of space even thru the warm air between the object and space *providing* the warm air is not excessively moving over the objects surface to warm the material by conduction.

Our air is actually a poor radiator of heat when dry. In the sahara desert it is typically only 4 to 5 % relative humidity and there is a very large difference between day and night temperatures as the heat radiates away to outerspace. Providing an object receives less heat radiation than it transmits outwards it will keep cooling

To get maximum night cooling of a surface the surface needs to be protected from other objects which are radiating heat such as other buildings and of course the warming air. An ideal location is therefore a deep very well insulated dry 'well' that never gets the heat of the day upon it. In such circumstances the best way to make ice would be to keep adding water night by night to the frozen water

The arabs have been using night cooling for centuries if not thousands of years.

Meanwhile modern people in our ignorance have badly built buildings and noisy air con units!
orestis
QUOTE (radiant+Sep 13 2009, 12:36 PM)
Strangely you can create ice at night in Arizona at 51F by dripping water on to a roof in still air and 25% humidity.



The google articles didn't mention making ice. Are you talking about a covering of frost or actual ice?

Bulluwagger, interesting piece of history. Where are the Upper Provenances?
radiant
QUOTE (orestis+Sep 16 2009, 02:59 AM)
The google articles didn't mention making ice. Are you talking about a covering of frost or actual ice?


I am not allowed to provide links!

google cleveland florist radiation.

Select thermal radiation heat transfer.

look for the letter from the cleveland florist

The info about arizona was on yahoo answers so is less authorative. The guy had a swamp cooler which dripped water onto the roof when faulty and produced ice 'flowing' down his roof.

the mechanism in play here is just that if more infra red is emitted than absorbed and the conditions are calm then convection from warm air cannot overcome the heat loss to cold space. There being almost no radiation coming from the dry air because dry air is a poor emitter of heat radiation. Either way if more heat is emitted than absorbed you get cooling.

You might want to note a curious observation from August 1932 popular mechanics which i also cannot link to which was attributed to a meterologist of the united weather bureau Dr WJ humphreys. Try google books to find it.

Here paraphrased.

'When it is exstremely cold less ice forms because fog often forms with very low temperatures which are nearly always present in calm conditions and the heat cannot radiate out of the warm water to reduce the temperature so that more ice forms when it is around freezing and the atmosphere is clear of clouds'

I think the moral of the story is that we know so much now that we know less than we did!
Hellen
To know more on this topic
uaafanblog
Since none of you can post links ... here's a few:

#1
#2
#3
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (MDT+Jan 31 2007, 10:57 PM)
Another method is connected to entropy expansion. Take a large tank of gas and evacuate it on a muggy day, ice will appear on the valve. That is how refrigeration works. The compressor compresses a gas (refrigerant), the heat is removed, so the compressed gas cools. Then the gas refrigerant is entropy expanded, getting real cold. One can run a refrig cycle with solar energy. Or one can run just the compressor, allow the gas to cool naturally, and then expand the gas. Not as efficient but still works.

So you could put water and air in a compression cylinder of some sort and then put pressure on the piston to squeeze out the heat? Then you could pull back on the piston to decompress the system which would lower the average temperature, potentially all the way to 32F?

If you had two such cylinders, with a transfer valve in between, you could squeeze the heat out of both and then pump the contents of them into one and squeeze it further. Then you could draw half the contents back into the empty one and squeeze both again. If you kept repeating this process, and both cylinder's were insulated to keep the squeezed-out heat out, couldn't you make ice like this using only mechanical energy, like a pulley for example?
a-x-med
QUOTE (Roborro+Jan 20 2007, 03:03 AM)
I am trying to produce ice like the old days without electricity. I am trying to produce an endothermic reaction. I am trying to use house hold items but when I research what is used all I find is some chemical name that I think it will be hard to find where I live.

Can someone help me.


Thank you

Roborro

good luck, wish you best )))
Dr Fred A Wolf
rolleyes.gif ..... just a petit observation;- this guy Roborro (over 2.5 years ago) asked for help - why reply now? wacko.gif
magpies
Now if only they can find a way to make electricty without ice.
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