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HenisDov
A. If one accepts, intuitively and logically, Pasteur's observation that all life must come from previously existing life, then the answer to "what makes a mono- and poly-cell life-form a Life" is the answer to "what makes some molecular associations in cells LIVES", and vice versa. It is the "lifelihood" of genes that makes us and all other forms of life on Earth living organisms, and evolution has been the route of Life's ever more complexing progress since the first replication of the first gene.

Early independent peptides, primordial genes, have entered into symbiotic associations in which eventually each of the ever increasing host of functions/tasks vital for the evolving associations is taken up by the member most efficient at it, leading to gene speciation and to gene specialization.

The history of life begins with independent genes, cascading fractally from single independent genes to agregate of genes, then to agregate of agregate of genes. Cooperative association is an inherent feature of life throughout all its evolution and at all its levels, in pre-cell and in mono-cell life and in mono-cell communities and in poly-cell life-forms and in communities of poly-cell life forms.


B. The totality of life in Earth's biosphere (the outermost part of the planet's shell — including air, land, surface rocks and water — within which life occurs, and which biotic processes in turn alter or transform. Wikipedia.) is a temporary grand store of energy, and all living organisms are elaborate temporary energy storage containers and all base genetic materials are "Life quanta", carriers of "Life photons". Humans are just one of the many types of Earth's living organisms, regardless of the reasons and purpose of their self-inflated high-self-esteem.


C. Life's evolution has been and still is and will continue to be the evolution of genes. The total number of genes, each with its own unique identity/functional-capability is, of course, the number of different organisms multiplied by their number of genes, which are now dependent-symbiotic members in chromosomes, cooperative-communes of genes. It is the GENES that evolve, and the evolution of the chromosomes and organisms is simply a consequence of their genes' evolution. The drive and purpose of evolution of the organisms is to enhance the functionality and survivability of the genes, in order to maintain and enhance Earth's biosphere energy storage.


D. This is the plain bare story of the drive and purpose of life. We do not yet comprehend what ENERGY is generically. We are just beginning to comprehend the nature of the raw material called Life and that the purpose of OUR life is ours to choose and develop and follow.


Dov
HenisDov
For further impact of the relationship between genomes' genes and their product organisms:

This is not science fiction. This is life:

- Having mastered production of spaceships, we are taking first steps now to set up a space station. Our genes' predecessors did this circa 600 million years ago, complexing mono-cell organisms to poly-cell organisms.

- And what ingenuity of genomes' genes; in many poly-cell organisms some cells are designed for and carry out special functions but most cells contain ALL the genes' complement yet only some of the genes in the cells are activated as required by their cell's position and allotted function within the space-station/organism while the other genes await until called for active duty...

- etc.,

Dov
HenisDov
Again, humans, like every other organism, are just products of evolution of the individual and collective genes of their genome. And humans, like every other organism, repay their genetic formers with feedbacks that serve to further complex their formers and to increase their formers' survivability. The organisms are NOT the purpose of life, but only the means of survival of THE PURPOSE of life, which is their genetic material. However, as far as the organism is concerned it itself IS the purpose of life; ask any human...

If you have patience and the required concentration to read not a long account, you will find in the following link an awe inspiring description of just some of the works of our genome, of its performance during the course of its formation of ourselves:

http://www.newhorizons.org/neuro/scheibel.htm


Dov
HenisDov
Cognition = the capability, process or act of thinking, questioning and analysing.

Cognition is Cultural is Biological.

Cognition derives from culture, which is a biological attribute of ALL organisms regardless of size or complexity.

Culture is the totality of ways of the organisms' dealing with (reaction to, manipulation of, exploitation of) its environment.

The choice and promotion of our purpose in life derives solely from our cognition.

Dov
photojack
HenisDov, Your link to the New Horizons for Learning site about Embryological Development of the Human Brain was one of the best summaries of that topic I have seen. An understanding of that will clarify why identical twins have different mental constructs and outlooks and why cloning will never produce a perfect mirror being of the original. The only concept of which I was unfamiliar was "Taikyo" of which I couldn't find anything agreeing with the definition in the article. Wikipedia didn't help, but Google came through...

"Taikyo."

Taikyo or 'Great Teaching' was the name of the government-inspired national religion promulgated between 1870-1884 following the Meiji restoration and the 'separation' of kami and Buddhas (shinbutsu bunri). Taikyo mingled archaic beliefs about the divinity of the emperor with traditional Confucian morality and new ideas connected with the advent of oligarchic constitutional government and the introduction of Western technology and institutions.
The main elements of Taikyo were summarized as the 'Three Great Teachings':
1. respect for the gods, love of country;
2. making clear the principles of Heaven and the Way of Man;
3. reverence for the emperor and obedience to the will of the court.
These teachings remained vague and were interpreted in various ways by the 'national evangelists' who were trained to promulgate them. Broadly they encouraged citizens to pay taxes, comply with military conscription and compulsory education, adapt to the new solar calendar, etc. in accordance with the motto 'rich country, strong army'. From http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/shinto/taikyo.html

This site is one of the best religion sites I have seen, and it clearly shows the fractionality and variability of the world's religions. It looks like this Taikyo was the tool of the Emperor to instill blind patriotism and obedience in the Japanese prior to WWII. Hardly beneficial to the furtherance of life's drive and purpose!

I totally agree with the " happy thoughts" of the mother as being a positive influence in fetal development. If that philosophy could be instituted worldwide and followed up with a balanced, agenda-free education following the principles of the "Teaching Tolerance" program from the Southern Poverty Law Center and based on documentable science and with optimum learning strategies, bias, bigotry and idealogical differences would nearly cease to exist. smile.gif UNESCO's stated goals are not far off from that mark. Educating the upcoming generation to our best ability for the furtherance of culture and civilization would be one of the highest goals imaginable to strive for. biggrin.gif That would be one of the most important aims for life's drive and purpose. Please see "Education and Ecstasy" by George Leonard.
HenisDov
photojack,

A. About the Purpose of life I suggest:

...cognition derives from culture, which is a biological matter.

...we comprehend that, like every other organism, each of us is a temporary energy container formed and used by genetic material for ITS purpose, and that besides this the choice and promotion of OUR purpose in life derives solely from our cognition, our capability of thinking, questioning and analysing


B. You have remarked about:

... religion sites ... shows the fractionality and variability of the world's religions.

...Taikyo, Japan...mother's "happy thoughts" ... positive influence in fetal development...could it be instituted worldwide and followed with balanced, agenda-free education...like the "Teaching Tolerance" program...based on science...bias, bigotry and idealogical differences would nearly cease to exist.

...UNESCO's stated goals are not far off from that mark. Educating the upcoming generation to our best ability for the furtherance of culture and civilization would be one of the highest goals imaginable to strive for. That would be one of the most important aims for life's drive and purpose.


C. I confess, being an old timer looking back at his long life so far, that I now give hardly any weight to the lofty purposes you list. Instead, I give much weight to my personal feelings about the experiences I had or missed in life and to the memories I leave or wished I'd have left behind.

Dov
photojack
I've always respected "old-timers" for their wisdom and perspectives. One of the biggest problems I see in America is a lack of respect for the elderly in this upcoming generation. My broad readings on a huge variety of topics and interest in world history have lead to many long and interesting dialogs with people of my father's generation and a mutual understanding and respect. I have kept my optimism alive and well and am genuinely seeking your thoughts and input. Have you looked into the "Teaching Tolerance" program? I have asked before, how would you propose ending the Palestinian indoctrination of their entire upcoming generations? Using the UN or some other international organization would eliminate the 'American domination or imposition" argument. There must be a way. Any Arab organizations around that could address this?

"photojack quote, "Educating the upcoming generation to our best ability for the furtherance of culture and civilization."

What DO you think of my reply to life's drive and purpose as a drive to EDUCATE?
HenisDov
PJ,

- Re your "seeking thoughts and input" I'm flattered but not sure that I can deliver. And not all wines improve with age. Some become sour.

- I have not looked at the "Teaching Tolerance" or at any other specific teaching program. I aim at the pre-teaching-indoctrination background worldview foundation, at a broad public comprehension of the science-informed nature of life, humans and humanity, the matrix for education inputs. This is one of my personal life purposes. It conditions me for going through life towards my end of life with my personal worldview. It engages me personally, for myself, not as means for a communal project.

- Each individual human is unique. This is biology and therefore this is also culturally. To each his goal and purpose and route.

Dov

PS: I do not think that "Palestinian education" belongs in this topic. If I had my t'rathers I'd rather comment on this in a more relevant topic.


Dov
HenisDov
Two recent reports demonstrate the point that Organisms are just the temporary space-ships or -stations of their base genetic cooperative communes, that ARE the actual LIVES that have been undergoing evolution since their first independent foreparents formed from their base chemicals circa four billion yrs ago:

(A) Bjorn Brembs: Fruit flies display rudimentary free will.

"Brains are usually described as input/output systems: they transform sensory input into motor output. However, the motor output of brains (behavior) is notoriously variable, even under identical sensory conditions. The question of whether this behavioral variability merely reflects residual deviations due to extrinsic random noise in such otherwise deterministic systems or an intrinsic, adaptive indeterminacy trait is central for the basic understanding of brain function. Instead of random noise, we find a fractal order (resembling Levy flights) in the temporal structure of spontaneous flight maneuvers in tethered Drosophila fruit flies. Levy-like probabilistic behavior patterns are evolutionarily conserved, suggesting a general neural mechanism underlying spontaneous behavior. Drosophila can produce these patterns endogenously, without any external cues. Such behavior is controlled by brain circuits which operate as a nonlinear system with unstable dynamics far from equilibrium. These findings suggest that both general models of brain function and autonomous agents ought to include biologically relevant nonlinear, endogenous behavior-initiating mechanisms if they strive to realistically simulate biological brains or out-compete other agents."


(B) Shark pup result of 'virgin birth'. 23 May 2007 NewScientist.com .

"...there were three females, and then there were four...

The researchers believe the hammerhead shark reproduced by a type of asexual reproduction called automictic parthenogenesis, whereby an unfertilised egg is activated to behave as a normal fertilised egg by a small, nearly genetically identical cell known as the sister polar body.

Because the unfertilised egg and the polar body both contain only half of the mother's genes – and the same half – not only did the pup not get any genes from a father, it also only got half of its mother's genes.

The researchers believe this restriction of genetic diversity could be detrimental to the survival of endangered shark species if female hammerhead sharks switch to asexual reproduction when they are having trouble finding a mate."

forwarded by Dov
HenisDov
Since a system/sub-system must be fractal to evolve, and since the Universe, including its sub-system Life, is continuously evolving, ergo energy is the BASE ELEMENT of everything and individual genes are the base elements of Life. Cosmic evolution is evolution of energy, and within it Life's evolution is the evolution of the genes/energy-quanta carriers.

Dov
HenisDov
Human Versus Animal Rights

A.

From NewScientist, 30 May 2007 :

Humans have rights, should human-like animals?

"The Catholic Church and Amnesty International point out that we have a long way to go to secure human rights before we start thinking about animals.
Other critics argue that the move is not radical enough and should be extended to other intelligent social animals such as elephants and dolphins, and potentially to all animals. Meanwhile, all species of great ape face extinction in the wild ..."

B.

From Dov's earlier posts:

Again, humans, like every other organism, are just products of evolution of the individual and collective genes of their genome. And humans, like every other organism, repay their genetic formers with feedbacks that serve to further complex their formers, genes, and to increase their formers' survivability. Organisms, including humans, are NOT the purpose of life, but only random temporary forms of survival of THE PURPOSE of life, which is the genetic material. This is obviously so even if as far as the organism is concerned IT itself IS the purpose of life; ask any human...

Cognition derives from culture, which is a biological attribute of ALL organisms regardless of size or complexity. Culture is the totality of ways of the organisms' relationship with its environment, and the choice and promotion of our purpose in life derives solely from our cognition.

C.

Thus Human Rights are some of the values made up by humans and promulgated and promoted for human geno- and pheno-typic survival in a world in which survival comprise various ways of exploiting and/or treatments of other organisms.

So we need to go back to Cognition, to the capability, process or act of thinking, questioning and analysing, for consideration of the subject of why and how humans should interact with other, which, life forms.

Dov
HenisDov
An additional recent demo of the relationship "organism-feedback to evolving-genes":

Genes may help people learn Chinese
28 May 2007
NewScientist.com news service
Nora Schultz

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1193...r&nsref=dn11939

All babies can grow up speaking any language, but now researchers have uncovered evidence that genes may in fact play a part in learning so-called "tonal languages", such as Chinese.

Using statistical analysis, the pair showed that people in regions where non-tonal languages are spoken are more likely to carry different, More Recently Evolved forms of two brain development genes, ASPM and Microcephalin, than people in tonal regions. Dediu and Ladd accounted for geography and history, and the gene differences remained.

Bernard Crespi, an evolutionary biologist at Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, Canada, says the results "open up a whole new field of inquiry, that links language evolution with adaptive molecular evolution and brain function."

But Crespi speculates that the Lower Complexity of Non-tonal Languages could confer a selective advantage: "Adoption of a simpler language might be 'easier', allowing for faster acquisition of language or other brain functions in early childhood. These ideas could be tested."

I suggest that Crespi is wrong. Non-tonal is not of lower or higher complexity than tonal language. It is simply a phenotypic result of different set of circumstances, and it most probably affects also other brain function simply by being another variable brain factor.

Dov
Bloy
QUOTE
HenisDov
Using statistical analysis, the pair showed that people in regions where non-tonal languages are spoken are more likely to carry different, More Recently Evolved forms of two brain development genes, ASPM and Microcephalin, than people in tonal regions. Dediu and Ladd accounted for geography and history, and the gene differences remained.


More recently evolved....
Of what time span are we looking at here.
It is my contention (An assertion put forward in argument) that these genes or any other genes all have a receptivity to re-development of varying flexibility concerning there passing through time. Our IDs upon inception are for the most part developing by biological memory based on previous generations. A cumulative collection if you will. My interest is after puberty. when other changes begin to manufest themselves

Thank you for your thread!
HenisDov
Bloy,

- If I'm not mistaken human puberty sets in closely as biological brain development ceases and its "exessive cells" disposition has started , i.e. circa 12 for girls and 14 for boys. (BTW this is interesting from other view points...)

- I also think that genes' "receptivity to re-development" is the normal mode of development. When a gene undergoes re-creation it faces a "junction of several possible routes" and it's settlement on one of them is determined by a group of then existing circumstancial factors.

- you might find details of the work on language via the link:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog...ves/004564.html

- and you might find several other relevant thoughts in:

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=247

Dov
HenisDov
I read some time ago that biologist E.O. Wilson has a new project: it's called the Encyclopedia of Life (EOL), and it aims to make all knowledge of the world's 1.8 million known species freely available online within just 10 years.

I suggest that this would be a waste of effort and of time, because it would most probably be based on the presently accepted tree of life, with one thing branching off after another, we f.e. listed under genus Homo species sapien, genus being a grouping of one or more related and morphologically similar species.

I suggest that in the age of Genetics and DNA identification and definitions of genes expressions phylogeny should be redefined and reorganized based on the evolution of the genetic material, as the tree of life should present comprehension of how the genetic material has been evolving on Earth since four billion yrs ago ...

Dov
photojack
The differences between the tree of life based on classical "descriptive" taxonomy and any newer one, based on the evolution of the genetic material would not be that great, especially concerning our human ancestors. That has been pretty thoroughly worked out. The subtle changes would be in showing which fossil hominids were "dead ends" or side branches, with no current genetic material being expressed. The tree would receive a light pruning and a re-branching further back of a few lines of descent in other animal orders and families. The differences would be small, but significant in showing newly discovered connections and links.
I have worked directly with an "old school" descriptive ornithologist who is very wary of the newer field of cladistics. The parameters that can be chosen from among the many affect the statistical outcome, sometimes in unexpected and unwarranted ways. Choose different parameters from among other logically suited possibilities, and the results are different. Only genomically-based studies could truly rearrange the tree of life, devoid of the possibility of human mistakes of interpretation. The observational techniques of classically trained taxonomists have resulted in an uncannily accurate portrayal of Darwinian evolution and its myriads of interconnections and familial routes of descent. They are still the best trained people to make the observations as Darwin himself did to discern new species and subspecies from within museum collections of specimens. I have photographically documented two such living animal discoveries and one fossil discovery published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. It was not quite like working with Darwin, but the excitement was palpable. biggrin.gif
HenisDov
QUOTE (photojack+Jun 23 2007, 03:45 PM)
The differences between the tree of life based on classical "descriptive" taxonomy and any newer one, based on the evolution of the genetic material would not be that great...

would not be that great... ?

I suggest that it would be day and night.

Not only would it correct several wrong "placings" and will throw light on and bring to view yet undiscovered junctions-relationships, but I posit that - most important - the comprehension that ALL LIFE EVOLUTION is the evolution of genes/genes-associations since four billion yrs ago, I posit that this comprehension will have a radical influence on the cognition and culture of humans and on their implications in personal and societal life organizations.

Dov

HenisDov
A.

'Altruistic' chimps act for the benefit of others
NewScientist.com news service, 25 June 2007
Nora Schultz

- "Chimps (in controlled captivity. Dov) happily help out unrelated chimps and unfamiliar humans, even if it means exerting themselves for no reward, a new study shows"....

- "Apes may show spontaneous altruism more readily when freed of the constraints of life in the wild", says Frans de Waal of Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, US. "Natural selection has produced psychological mechanisms designed to produce spontaneous helping that – on average and in the long run – works to the advantage of both actors and recipients."

- "The details of such mechanisms need teasing out, but empathy may lie behind such altruism"...

(Journal reference: PLoS Biology (DOI:10.1371/journal. pbio.0050184))
---------------------------------------------
B.

Life Is Inherently Cooperative, Hence "Altruism Gene"

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=231

- It is appropriate to bear in mind that all aspects of organisms' inter-cooperation are at the base of life's evolution and are an expression of the evolutionary process towards ever higher organisms' complexity. Cooperation started early in life between individual genes, forming and elaborating cooperative genomes communes associations, chromosomes.

- Culture is a biological entity, selected for survival, common to ALL organisms, and examining its expression in humans will lead you via molecular biology to human psychology.

Complex ?! ...

Dov
HenisDov
A.

Gene mutation linked to cognition is found only in humans

http://www.physorg.com/news97825267.html
May 08, 2007

"The human and chimpanzee genomes vary by just 1.2 percent, yet there is a considerable difference in the mental and linguistic capabilities between the two species. A new study showed that a certain form of neuropsin, a protein that plays a role in learning and memory, is expressed only in the central nervous systems of humans and that it originated less than 5 million years ago. The study, which also demonstrated the molecular mechanism that creates this novel protein, will be published online in Human Mutation, the official journal of the Human Genome Variation Society"

B.

Seed of Human-Chimp Genomes Diversity

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=179
Nov 02, 2005 Dov, in biologicalEvolution Forum

Chapter Five and conclusion, In which I suggest that detailed study of other creatures that, like humans, underwent radical change of living circumstances, for example ocean-dwelling mammals, might bring to light unique evolutionary processes and features of evolutionary implications similar to those of humans.

Dov
HenisDov
How Life Evolution Proceeds

One example from myriads that have been occurring on Earth every minute daily since 4 billion yrs ago:

Israel is a birdwatching paradise being the Europe-Africa annual birds transition bridge

http://www.birdingisrael.com/

Recently few storks decided to settle here rather than do the normal annual winter-summer roundtrip. The new settlers soon experienced the fierce Israel summer heat. Some were then observed fetching water by mouth to their nesting fledglings, and even collecting straw, dunking it in water and placing it in the nest for cooling the fledglings...

Now if these storks stay in Israel their newly experienced survival act will be stamped in their memory (most probably as a specific protein tag). Memory is a biological molecular affair, related to and historically conjuncted with the immunity system, ubiquitous in ALL forms of life. This molecular impression becomes one of the feedback input data items that will guide the route of formation (modified replication) of the genome of this next stork generation when it faces a replication junction with several possible routes. Hence is an evolving novel stork species or phenotype...

This is the chain of life evolution. It started with one or very few replicating genes, proceeded with celling with genes'-formed membrane, proceeded further with interacting with the environment (we term this culture), the genes continuously assessing and collecting feedback from their spacestations (i.e. creatures, plants, all life forms) and modifying themselves for more effective survival via the biologic molecular chain of memory equal fresh evolution options etc.,

Dov
HenisDov
The ONLY Drive and Guide of Life's Processes

I suggest that genome's survival is the ONLY drive and guide of life's processes, of ALL life's processes, of ALL life.

Dov
Bloy
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 6 2007, 08:33 AM)
The  ONLY  Drive and Guide of Life's Processes

I suggest that genome's survival is the  ONLY  drive and guide of life's processes, of ALL life's processes, of ALL life.

Dov

I disagree, reluctantly, but MY genome goes beyond simple survival, and also incudes survivng with at least an added "potential" for flair during my genome's failing attempt at survival. ...a dual drive, as oposed to an "only" drive. huh.gif

Alas, things would be so easy if I mearly strove to survive...or wait!... is that the "hard" way?
HenisDov
Me'reckon that our unique human "additional drive" which prods us to things beyond mere tranquil existence is due to the ancient Sumerian garden of Eden sin-curse we bear, the Tree of Knowledge curse...

Dov
HenisDov
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 7 2007, 11:32 AM)
Me'reckon that our unique human "additional drive" which prods us to things beyond mere tranquil existence is due to the ancient Sumerian garden of Eden sin-curse we bear, the Tree of Knowledge curse... 

Dov

But this unique human "additional drive", human culture/civilization, is also a biological entity, evolved and functioning for our genome's survival.

Humans are biological entities; all our processes, all of them, are biological. It simply cannot be otherwise. All values we attribute to cultural processes are as real as they affect us because we elect them to affect us and our genome gets this election as afeedback from us to it and tends to adopt our election since it enhances its survival...

Dov
Bloy
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 8 2007, 02:04 AM)
But this unique human "additional drive", human culture/civilization,  is also a biological entity, evolved and functioning for our genome's survival.

Humans are biological entities; all our processes, all  of them, are biological. It simply cannot be otherwise.  All values we attribute to cultural processes are as real as they affect us because we elect them to affect us and our genome gets this election as afeedback from us to it and tends to adopt our election since it enhances its survival...

Dov

Yes, we are biolological, but we have control of our biologies.

The "election" to have them affect us can rather be through "assignment" by the "soul" (if I may say so) rather than general consensus. That is, allowing the subconscious of our existence dictate our evolution.

If one decides to forego the discomforts experienced by one's denial of daily recommended physical intake, a conscious redirection of discovery can sustain the physical in a manner such that the biological reactions promote an enhancement to the cognizant structure of thought. A metamorphosis that begins at the surface levels and moves successively into the less visceral mechanisms of our beings.
This discovery process overshadows the aches and pains of withdrawl from the very substances that have previously brought our biological entities to this realization.
Thus, the euphoria one experiences through discovery can extend the limits of endurance as the biological body sparks into action a sythesis for rearrangement of previous priorities established in the early years of the aging human that originally formed the present state of the genome.
..in short, the ultimate pursuit of survival...as individual entities, in harmony with the normal generation of biological replacement.
HenisDov
Dear Bloy,

Many years ago, when employed at ESSO in NJ, I was asked by my superior to explain my written report of my first work assignment. As I concluded he said :"good work. now I understand. Why did'nt you write what you just told me?".

For a meaningful discussion it'd help if I understand what you wrote, even if my difficulty might stem from my inadequate mental capability...

Dov
Bloy
QUOTE (Bloy+Jul 8 2007, 07:39 AM)
Yes, we are biolological, but we have control of our biologies.

The "election" to have them affect us can rather be through "assignment" by the "soul" (if I may say so) rather than general consensus. That is, allowing the subconscious of our existence dictate our evolution.

If one decides to forego the discomforts experienced by one's denial of daily recommended physical intake, a conscious redirection of discovery can sustain the physical in a manner such that the biological reactions promote an enhancement to the cognizant structure of thought. A metamorphosis that begins at the surface levels and moves successively into the less visceral mechanisms of our beings.
This discovery process overshadows the aches and pains of withdrawl from the very substances that have previously brought our biological entities to this realization.
Thus, the euphoria one experiences through discovery can extend the limits of endurance as the biological body sparks into action a sythesis for rearrangement of previous priorities established in the early years of the aging human that originally formed the present state of the genome.
..in short, the ultimate pursuit of survival...as individual entities, in harmony with the normal generation of biological replacement.

Has anyone cared to decipher what was said here?

Take a shot at it...since other threads here are talking of RNA and DNA.
Confused2
QUOTE (Bloy+)
Has anyone cared to decipher what was said here?


If you don't eat you get hungry? huh.gif
Bloy
QUOTE (Confused2+Jul 10 2007, 12:16 PM)
QUOTE (Bloy+)
Has anyone cared to decipher what was said here?


If you don't eat you get hungry? huh.gif

Oh dear...you ARE confused. missed the point.

Try reading up here for further confusion:
Help for deciphering
professor andy
Hello people,

I haven't read the previous statements, but Im sure you'll forgive me, as this isn't too serious a topic.

My brother came up with a rather splendid theory for life! It involves entrophy and I have yet to find fault in it. It's simple..

"Create order in everything you do"

Everything you are able to do, you will be able to either create order, or disorder. A business for instance, creates order. Doing an exam creates order. Building a house, doing your job, making a baby, doing art, designing a machine, writting. Most positive things are due to creating some sort of order.

An extreme case:

Making a bomb. This isn't a good thing. You could argue that you need to create a lot of order to make a bomb. But when a bomb goes off, the disorder more than cancels it out!

Perhaps genecide? But wait! Killing people increases disorder, as all that information which people hold in their minds', their DNA etc is lost.

..but of course, to create order, you need to put energy in! So maybe it's no good for lazy people? Hehe..

HenisDov
QUOTE (professor andy+Jul 10 2007, 09:09 PM)
- ... you'll forgive me, as this isn't too serious a topic.

-  theory for life... "Create order in everything you do"


- what topic isn't too serious? The subject of this thread or the brilliant "theory" you post ?

- sorry. "theory for life" and "create order". words, words and no meaning...
Confused2
HenisDov,
May I request that you spend a few moments looking at this site http://www.cafebongo.com/hamstertales/ . Hamsters and humans are not closely related but generally they manage to get on together pretty well. The point .. the REAL point is to give you a little pleasure, at least that is the intention.
Best wishes - C2.
Confused2
In case you didn't get that far..

I started musing philosophically about how much there was to learn from Billy's simple life. All he did was eat, sleep, run in his wheel, and amass a pile of worthless seeds. Yet that was all it took to make him happy. If only my own life could be like that, I said to myself. Then I realized...hey, my own life IS like that.

( It doesn't do to think deep thoughts about hamsters. )
Bloy
QUOTE (Bloy+Jul 10 2007, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE
QUOTE (Confused2 @ Jul 10 2007, 12:16 PM)
QUOTE (Bloy)
Has anyone cared to decipher what was said here?



If you don't eat you get hungry?  

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
QUOTE (Confused2 @ Jul 10 2007, 12:16 PM)
QUOTE (Bloy)
Has anyone cared to decipher what was said here?



If you don't eat you get hungry?  

If you don't eat you get hungry?  huh.gif

Oh dear...you ARE confused. missed the point.

Try reading up here for further confusion:
Help for deciphering

I was going to comment here, with respect and reverence for the virtue of levity,
but while listening "live" here to George defend his actions, my need to go right to the subject of this forum catagory and discharge on a particularly disturbing utterance with regard to Saddam's "choice" made by the existing administration (those whom represent us) headed by an convincing errant president, prevails.

Yes, yah, okay, we are trying achieve a goal. Now in Bush's idea, he chose (under the guise of saving Iraq from Hussein"s rule), along with our acceptance, to violently instigate disorder when unable to restrain from punching out the Irani's in general.

So what if he was "arguing" with Saddam. Bush (with MOST representatives of us included) chose to "lift our hand", promote violence, throw the geographical region into escalated chaos, and continue to deny our (representatives) inappropriate behavior when making an "ultimatum".

We let George "choose" (for us) to smite Saddam.

Later in the speech Bush expressed his desire to "reduce the violence".

Hmmm. Now that we are there, are we going to "demand" that we take away the rights of "volunteers" who wish to risk their lives to secure the welfare of those involved? Or are we going to help transport those "defenders" and allow those who want to put themselves in harms way to assist in quelling the predicament that WE ourselves (through representatives) are responsible for?

Hey! as long as the "cause" is voluntary! I gotta say though...
the military needs to lighten up a bit, in more ways than one.
Insubordination would require less stringent penalties.
Desertion would be viewed mearly as "deciding to pursue alternate lifestyles", and not some unpatriotic guilt of cowardice.

The "volunteer" doesn't necessarily use the "state-of-the-art' equipment to carry out objectives and accepts that when stepping in. WE are 'NOT required' to provide for those "volunteers" devices to enable to "volunteer's" work environment to have some level of security, but we may debate over how much resources we sacrifice to support the "volunteers".
...this can be accepted without being attacked by accusatory forces bringing false claims of non-support of said "volunteers"

The argument seems to be one of guilt! Guilt if you don't throw a buck into the begging helmets of the "volunteer" defenders of peace, or guilty if we spend spend spend to surround those "volunteers" with all the paraphenalia that protects them.

Sorry confu,
I didn't want to respond in like to your short reply offering a possible "decoding" of that post related to "self-denial" and causality.

My brief and probably flippant response was not meant to be conclusive. You're right, It DOES have to do with eating, but because you may have been in a hurry and wanted to joke quickly before you left your keyboard, and that I was hoping for a more indepth attempt to decipher, I answered inappropriately (judging myself).

in regard to the "voluntary military service"
I'm comfortable with "choices" we make when reading that job application thoroughly before "signing up". With option to individually modify the contract, or annul it entirely at any time during the employment.

What is our purpose here and now?
Bloy
In last post I made this ridiculous sentence:
QUOTE
WE are 'NOT required' to provide for those "volunteers" devices to enable to "volunteer's" work environment to have some level of security, but we may debate over how much resources we sacrifice to support the "volunteers".


Since I can no longer edit it I feel compelled to correct it here:
WE are 'NOT required' to provide for those "volunteers" devices that enable said "volunteers" a secure and safe working environment, but we may debate over how much resources we wish to sacrifice in supporting the "volunteers", without guilt for reducing the expenditures, or rather for continued investment into technology aimed at providing the safest environment for the "volunteers"
HenisDov
C2,

1) The subject of this thread is, for me, not a philosophical musing. By age I am closer, I reckon, than all the members of this forum to the end of my tour of existence, hence my musing about it.

2) My apology for non-prompt forum responses. I can hardly clear an hour/day for sitting at my PC for study and mail. The beginning of summer now is the bussiest time of the fruit-farming year, and the outdoor working conditions are not easy, in the mid-30's C and murderous humidity yet completely dry and terribly dusty.

3) The drive and purpose of life is not an idle living-room discussion subject for me. For me and for each of us it is and it should be a matter of daily musing about how we spend the most expensive and important gift-resource we have and about the probable and possible implications of our choices. We have a single life-time, it's getting shorter daily, our activities in it are mostly dictated-mandated by circumstances...let's exercise some personal purpose control over its course...or let's satisfy ourselves that we know what life is and that we are not just drifting in it ignorantly until we sink and out...

Dov
HenisDov
Genomes Are Always At Junctions

A. From Chapter 2, June 2005, at

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=207

"During differentiation, precursor cells with progressively narrowed potential give rise to progeny cells that adopt one of two (or more) divergent cell fates. This choice is influenced by intricate regulatory networks acting at multiple levels. Early in differentiation, precursor cells show low-level activation of all progeny genetic programs. Bias toward a given lineage comes from environmental inputs that activate powerful positive- and negative- feedback loops, which work in concert to impose selective gene expression patterns".

B. From

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/biology.php
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (July 11, 2007)

Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research

Cells take risks with their identities

Biologists have long thought that a simple on/off switch controls most genes in human cells. Flip the switch and a cell starts or stops producing a particular protein. But new evidence suggests that this model is too simple and that our genes are more ready for action than previously thought.

Scientists in the lab of Whitehead Member Richard Young have discovered that many human genes hover between “on” and “off” in any given cell. According to the study, which appears online in Cell on July 12, these genes begin making RNA templates for proteins—a process termed transcription—but fail to finish. The templates never materialize, and the proteins never appear.

“Surprisingly, about one-third of our genes, including all the regulators of cell identity, fall into this new class,” says Young, who is also an MIT professor of biology. “It seems awfully risky for an adult cell to leave genes primed that could change its identity.”

The human body comprises more than 200 types of cells. Each cell contains the same complete set of genes, but expresses only a unique fraction of them, churning out proteins that make it a nerve or skin or white blood cell. Scientists have known for years that a cell hides the genes it doesn’t need by coiling the dormant DNA tightly around protein spools called histones. The new study, however, suggests that DNA packaging stays loose at the beginning of many inactive genes, contrary to textbook models.

Matthew Guenther and Stuart Levine screened the entire human genome for a chemical signature, a landmark, that corresponds with this looser DNA packaging configuration and thus with transcription initiation. They worked with embryonic stem cells, liver cells and white blood cells.

“We expected to find the landmark on 30 to 40 percent of the genes because that’s how many are active in each cell,” Guenther says. “We were shocked when it showed up on more than 75 percent of the genes in both unspecialized embryonic stem cells and specialized adult cells.”

Further experiments confirmed that the majority of inactive genes undergo “transcriptional tryouts.” They begin making RNA, but never complete the job. Apparently, most of an inactive gene remains tightly coiled around histones, which prevent the RNA transcriptional machinery from progressing along the DNA.

“These genes are like cars revving their engines before the beginning of a race,” Guenther explains. “They’re not parked in a garage with their engines off. They’re at the starting gate, waiting for a flag that says ‘go.’”

These overzealous “cars” include all the genes responsible for directing cells along particular developmental paths—master regulators that should have no reason for gearing up in healthy specialized cells. Activating such genes might cause a cell to assume new properties. This vulnerability to metamorphosis could help to explain why some cells acquire new, unhealthy states in cancer, autoimmune diseases, diabetes and other illnesses.

It could also explain why researchers were recently able to convert mouse adult skin cells to embryonic stem cells by simply introducing four key genes. Given the right signals, inactive developmental regulators primed for transcription could roar to life.

“This is a new model for regulation of the developmental regulators,” Young maintains. “It could bring us a step closer to reprogramming cells in a controlled fashion, which has important applications for regenerative medicine.”

C. "This is a new model"?


Dov

yor_on
I enjoyed that Confused2.
HenisDov
hESC Prime Themselves

From

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/biology.php
Hamilton, ON. (July 11, 2007)

From new McMaster institute:

In article in Nature reports new understanding of the growth of human stem cells. It had been thought previously that stem cells are directly influenced by cells in the local environment or ‘niche’, but the situation may be more complex. Human embryonic stem cells also generate fuel for life.

In the article in Nature researchers of the McMaster Cancer and Stem Cell Research Institute show that human embryonic stem (ES) cells can actually produce distinctive niche cells, which then release stem-cell nourishing proteins to help keep their ‘parents’ ticking over. The researchers present evidence that human ES cells have the unique ability to generate human-ES-cell-derived fibroblast-like niche cells (hdFs) in vitro despite removal from their in vivo microenvironment. These hdFs then provide a continuous source of supportive proteins, including insulin-like growth factor 2 (IGF-II), which could be “the” protein to sustain hESCs..

Researchers are interested in the relationship between stem cells and their niche, because the niche represents a route for modifying stem cell behaviour — if human ES cells can be reliably guided down a particular pathway, then they can be more readily used for future clinical therapy to regenerate damaged tissue such as neurons for Parkinson’s disease, or insulin producing cells for diabetes .

Dov
Confused2
QUOTE (HenisDov+)
let's exercise some personal purpose control over its course...or let's satisfy ourselves that we know what life is and that we are not just drifting in it ignorantly until we sink and out...

In researching for another thread .. "Whitherward USA.." I think I may have found what is NOT there. Empathy. If you have a moment and are willing to divert from your current course I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Best wishes - C2.
Bloy
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 13 2007, 01:53 AM)
hESC Prime Themselves

From

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/biology.php
Hamilton, ON. (July 11, 2007)

From new McMaster institute:

In article in Nature reports new understanding of the growth of human stem cells. It had been thought previously that stem cells are directly influenced by cells in the local environment or ‘niche’, but the situation may be more complex. Human embryonic stem cells also generate fuel for life.

In the article in Nature researchers of the McMaster Cancer and Stem Cell Research Institute show that human embryonic stem (ES) cells can actually produce distinctive niche cells, which then release stem-cell nourishing proteins to help keep their ‘parents’ ticking over. The researchers present evidence that human ES cells have the unique ability to generate human-ES-cell-derived fibroblast-like niche cells (hdFs) in vitro despite removal from their in vivo microenvironment. These hdFs then provide a continuous source of supportive proteins, including insulin-like growth factor 2 (IGF-II), which could be “the” protein to sustain hESCs..

Researchers are interested in the relationship between stem cells and their niche, because the niche represents a route for modifying stem cell behaviour — if human ES cells can be reliably guided down a particular pathway, then they can be more readily used for future clinical therapy to regenerate damaged tissue such as neurons for Parkinson’s disease, or insulin producing cells for diabetes .

Dov

Thanks again, Dov!

Your postings bring to the surface a wealth of information that reinforces the potential for humankind to act upon while self-directing our evolution out from its present primal state and forward to a true existence of freedom through causality. I believe, when stimulating latent internal mechanisms during controlled denial of external substances, that we as individuals will eventually learn, in conjunction with correctness of thought, to more readily repair or modify ourselves.
Derek1148
The drive and purpose to our lives may not be by choice but by chance. And what we do with the circumstances we find ourselves in determines what meaning, if any, our lives have.
HenisDov
QUOTE (Confused2+Jul 13 2007, 02:12 PM)
In researching for another thread .. "Whitherward USA.." I think I may have found what is NOT there. Empathy. If you have a moment and are willing to divert from your current course I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Best wishes - C2.

C2,

I ascribe the present paucity of empathy to the 21st century decline of political social ideologies.

From a plain descriptive trade-venture term in Holland and England in the 17th and 18th centuries capitalism has evolved into a domineering individual rights ideology, all rights and no moral-ethical social obligations. Rights of others have become a matter of either economic calculations or of charity.

My own personal vision is for a society founded on secular science-informed humanism.

Dov
HenisDov
QUOTE (Bloy+Jul 13 2007, 02:18 PM)
I believe, when stimulating latent internal mechanisms during controlled denial of external substances, that we as individuals will eventually learn, in conjunction with correctness of thought, to more readily repair or modify ourselves.

attorney: ALL your responses MUST be oral, OK?

What school did you go to?

witness: Oral.
HenisDov
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 14 2007, 04:19 AM)
The drive and purpose to our lives may not be by choice but by chance. And what we do with the circumstances we find ourselves in determines what meaning, if any, our lives have.

Derek,

Just suggesting a re-think.

“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” (G B Shaw)
Derek1148
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 14 2007, 08:02 AM)
Derek,

Just suggesting a re-think.

“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” (G B Shaw)

The definition and direction of the purpose of our lives is random. That doesn't make less meaningful. But it is random.

Why do some survive in combat and others die? Do you believe there is a grand intelligent designer with other plans for certain individuals? Or is it simply random? And don’t these random events change the drive and purpose of our lives?

By the way, in reference to Mr. Shaw, I am not making the assumption you agree or even understand my position. So there is no illusion of communication. Just an attempt.
Confused2
HenisDov,

With the greatest repect .. I think it would help if you explained what it is that you are trying to explain.

Best wishes - C2.
Bloy
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 14 2007, 01:52 AM)
attorney:  ALL your  responses MUST be oral, OK?

What school did you go to?

witness:    Oral.

If this reply needs ...or begs to be deciphered, please indicate so, in that I may continue to ponder the meaning behind your tersley constructed post of three lines.
HenisDov
QUOTE (Confused2+Jul 14 2007, 11:58 AM)
With the greatest repect .. I think it would help if you explained what it is that you are trying to explain.

Best wishes - C2.

C2,

With much appreciation, but frankly with disinclination to expend time and effort in this direction, I suggest that a vast subject may be opened for examination of the many human social and psychological effects of capitalism on citizens of capitalistic societies...

Dov
Bloy
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 14 2007, 08:59 AM)
C2,

With much appreciation, but frankly with disinclination to expend time and effort in this direction, I suggest that a vast subject may be opened for examination of the many human social and psychological effects of capitalism on citizens of capitalistic societies...

Dov

heh.....Yah! not to mention physiological...
Zarabtul
We have choice in the matter to an extent where we must know for certain that we do have set goals and opportunities we need to make happen. Some people are better at making these networking techniques work better others are not as well equipped rationally... I have seen the weakest and some of the most powerful minds fall and sometimes you have to learn some very strange and hard to deal with things in life to follow your path. It's not what you leave behind...


We must realize though at any time that choice can be taken away from even the strongest of minds and put into a situation where they don't make the decisions it is made for them and frankly thank God for these situations that there is some guiding force that does protect us.
HenisDov
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 14 2007, 09:05 AM)
The definition and direction of the purpose of our lives is random. That doesn't make less meaningful. But it is random.

Why do some survive in combat and others die? Do you believe there is a grand intelligent designer with other plans for certain individuals? Or is it simply random? And don’t these random events change the drive and purpose of our lives?


A. "Why do some survive... and others die?"
Because some survive and others die.


B. "Do you believe..."

No. I am not religious. I continuously follow life sciences search reports for better comprehension of what is life and what we are.


C. "the drive...of our lives", i.e. of the survival of our genome, is the still incomprehensible by us persistence of the Earth's biomass as a grand storage of dispersal-resisting energy.


D. "the purpose of our life" is ours, either to float wherever circumstances move us or to try best to navigate towards some temporary stops of our selection, until we are dis-organized and the energy stored in us reverts to the biomass.

Dov
HenisDov
QUOTE (Bloy+Jul 14 2007, 02:53 PM)
this reply... begs to be deciphered...


Your idée fixe is showing...

Dov
Derek1148
QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 14 2007, 07:19 PM)
A. "Why do some survive... and others die?"
Because some survive and others die.


B. "Do you believe..."

No. I am not religious. I continuously follow life sciences search reports for better comprehension of what is life and what we are.


C. "the drive...of our lives", i.e. of the survival of our genome, is the still incomprehensible by us persistence of the Earth's biomass as a grand storage of dispersal-resisting energy.


D. "the purpose of our life" is ours, either to float wherever circumstances move us or to try best to navigate towards some temporary stops of our selection, until we are dis-organized and the energy stored in us reverts to the biomass.

Dov

Or wherever fate takes us, we can try and do some good.
HenisDov
Cells Are Not Organisms

It irritates me again and again when unscientific science editors allow reference to cells as organisms. Cells are the spaceships, the edifices, that house the genomes, the organisms. Scientifically Cells are NOT organisms.

A possible explanation of this scientific ignorance is our still incomplete knowledge of the nature of the constituents of the cells' contents coupled with misty comprehension of the nature of life. Here are two recent findings, one about the genome and one about the environment-atmosphere in which the genome functions i.e. the cell's contents:

A. Chromosome Glue Repairs Damaged DNA

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/biology.php
Karolinska Institutet, 13-Jul-2007

When a strand of DNA breaks in the body's cells, it normally does not take long until it has been repaired. Now researchers at the Swedish medical university Karolinska Institutet have discovered a new mechanism that helps explain how this repair is performed. The results are presented in Science.

The new results are concerned with a phenomenon called cohesion, whereby two copies of a chromosome in the cell nucleus are held tightly together by a protein complex called cohesin. Cohesion fulfils an important function during cell division as the newly copied chromosomes, the sister chromatids, have to stay together until the right moment of separation. If the chromatids come apart too early, there is a risk of the daughter cells getting the wrong number of chromosomes, something that is often observed in tumour cells.

Dr Camilla Sjogren and her research team have now shown that the cell also employs cohesion to repair damaged sister chromatids. Their results show that DNA damage can reactivate cohesin, which runs counter to the commonly held view that cohesion only arises during the DNA copying that takes place before cell division.

Scientists have long been fascinated by the way in which the duplicated chromosomes are separated before cell division so that exactly half the copied genetic material ends up in each daughter cell. Another large research question is how cells repair damaged DNA and consequently prevent cancer, for example.

"We have shown that chromosome segregation and DNA repair are partly dealt with by the same machinery. These findings provide new understanding of two fundamental genome mechanisms and may also be of value to cancer research," says Dr Sjogren.

B. Own Stemcell Formation

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ar...07/26073801.jpg

When your own materials and ingenious attempts fail follow nature's guidance, make use of what nature offers you...

Dov
Bloy

QUOTE

Cells Are Not Organisms

It irritates me again and again when unscientific science editors allow reference to cells as organisms.  Cells are the spaceships, the edifices, that house the genomes, the organisms.  Scientifically Cells are NOT organisms.

At risk of further showing my idée fixe, I must inquire into what leads you to the conclusion that cells are not organisms. Cells are a part of the whole living entity.
They ae constructed, replicated, modified, etc. based on accumulated information from within. Each time a "spaceship" is constructed it uses gained data from both internal AND external influences. Scientifically, we attempt to determine how those influences rebuild each "spaceship" in carrying out its mission in support of the "mothership". The "mothership" is yet a larger cell containing information that allows infinite possibilities for change when considering the third factor; Thought.
Scientifically, applied thought, in conjunction with physiological understandings, makes the cell "organism" (or "spaceship" if you will) a completely Scientific structure reliant on causality. If this, then that. We (those actively reasearching) will sort it out.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Cells Are Not Organisms

It irritates me again and again when unscientific science editors allow reference to cells as organisms.  Cells are the spaceships, the edifices, that house the genomes, the organisms.  Scientifically Cells are NOT organisms.

At risk of further showing my idée fixe, I must inquire into what leads you to the conclusion that cells are not organisms. Cells are a part of the whole living entity.
They ae constructed, replicated, modified, etc. based on accumulated information from within. Each time a "spaceship" is constructed it uses gained data from both internal AND external influences. Scientifically, we attempt to determine how those influences rebuild each "spaceship" in carrying out its mission in support of the "mothership". The "mothership" is yet a larger cell containing information that allows infinite possibilities for change when considering the third factor; Thought.
Scientifically, applied thought, in conjunction with physiological understandings, makes the cell "organism" (or "spaceship" if you will) a completely Scientific structure reliant on causality. If this, then that. We (those actively reasearching) will sort it out.

A possible explanation of this scientific ignorance is our still incomplete knowledge of the nature of the constituents of the cells' contents coupled with misty comprehension of the nature of life. 

True!

QUOTE
When your own materials and ingenious attempts fail follow nature's guidance, make use of what nature offers you...

This statement befuddles me...
Did you mean....."When your own materials and ingenious attempts fail (to)follow nature's guidance?
Or did you mean....."When your own materials and ingenious attempts fail(,) follow nature's guidance...

Nature, from my view, is unreliable either way and should be considered inadequate as something to be followed. It is a path toward entropy. We use our minds to counter nature....in either a positive influence, or as seen in world cellular disorder, a negative influence. The storm's root is within...within our physical AND mental. Each responds and replies to the other.

...But I think from your posts, I agree there will always be an element when approached scientifically which will be unobtainable. The "mysty" factor.
HenisDov

Genomes and Cells

Bloy,

A. Again: re Own Stemcell Formation, when your own materials and ingenious attempts fail follow nature's guidance, make use of what nature offers you. With time, though, we'll undoubtedly garner the still lacking cell's constitution info that will enable forming own stemcell not only via zygote.

B. I conjecture, scientifically reasonably, that celling was selected in the course of evolution of genes associations, as controling-stabilizing the genes living environment. Cells are products of their genome inhabitants. Evolution rendered them essential.

C. IMO nature is not exactly "a path toward entropy"; the universe evolves between two steady states, singularity and maximum energy dilution. In the present universe evolution cycle Earth-life (also black holes) is a temporary constraint of energy dissipation. This is the essence of genesis, of genes' formation and persistent evolving survival.

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=268

D. We are biology, products of our genome. All our capabilities and functions are biological evolution products. "Mental" and "Thought" are biological entities, within Culture which is biology, which is ubiquitous in ALL organisms, which was selected in the course of evolution of genomes in handling out-of-cell environmental matters.

Dov
HenisDov
Stability of Genomes' Compositions

A.

http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDoc...elease20070718/

Max Planck Institute for Developmental Biology
July 20th, 2007

One species, many genomes

- Adaptation to the environment has a stronger effect on the genome than anticipated.

- The result of this painstaking analysis: on average, every 180th DNA building block is variable. And about four percent of the reference genome either looks very different in the wild varieties, or cannot be found at all. Almost every tenth gene was so defective that it could not fulfill its normal function anymore!

- Results such as these raise fundamental questions. For one, they qualify the value of the model genomes sequenced so far. "There isn’t such a thing as the genome of a species," says Weigel. He adds "The insight that the DNA sequence of a single individual is by far not sufficient to understand the genetic potential of a species also fuels current efforts in human genetics."

Still, it is surprising that Arabidopsis has such a plastic genome. In contrast to the genome of humans or many crop plants such as corn, that of Arabidopsis is very much streamlined, and its size is less than a twentieth of that of humans or corn—even though it has about the same number of genes. In contrast to these other genomes, there are few repeats or seemingly irrelevant filler sequences. "That even in a minimal genome every tenth gene is dispensable, has been a great surprise," admits Weigel.

Detailed analyses showed that genes for basic cellular functions such as protein production or gene regulation rarely suffer knockout hits. Genes that are important for the interaction with other organisms, on the other hand, such as those responsible for defense against pathogens or infections, are much more variable than the average gene. "The genetic variability appears to reflect adaptation of local circumstances," says Weigel. It is likely that such variable genes allow plants to withstand dry or wet, hot or cold conditions, or make use of short and long growing seasons.

B.

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=179

Again and again I re-explain what Darwin observed, i.e. that the extent of the relative stability of compositions of genomes, genomes being live organisms, is proportional to their dependence on physiological adaptation for survival. The more the genome, the organism, depends on adaptation for survival the more its composition changes. On the other hand the further complexed is the culture of the genome, of the organism, the smaller is the number of genes that change for survival and simultanously the greater is the number of variations-changes of the genes involved in its culture. Its culture serves it for survival in lieu of physiological adaptation. It modifies its environment instead of adapts to its environments.

So, again and again, what is surprising/unexpected in the results and pattern of the above findings ?

Dov
HenisDov
Genetic Evolution of Scientific Terms

A. The "scientific" term 'de novo' is scientifically a de novo term:

1) Merriam-Webster Online: de novo = over again, anew <a case tried de novo>

2) http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/ghr/glossary/denovomutation
No de novo gene, only de novo mutation = An alteration in a gene that is present for the first time in one family member as a result of a mutation in a germ cell (egg or sperm) of one of the parents or in the fertilized egg itself.


B. A step further, de novo genes:

1) Cornell Univ, Chronicle Online, July 23, 2007
"Fruit fly gene from 'out of nowhere' may change ideas about how new genes are formed, researchers report"

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July07...olution.kr.html

And early evidence indicates that the new gene is functional (as opposed to being nonfunctional "junk" DNA) and is likely to express a protein involved in late stages of sperm cell development (spermatogenesis). This finding is consistent with work of other scientists who are discovering that many of the most recently formed functional genes in any species also are expressed in male testes and appear related to spermatogenesis.

"This is a de novo -- 'out of nowhere' -- gene," said Hsiao-Pei Yang, a senior research associate in Cornell's Department of Molecular Biology and Genetics and senior author of a paper published in the July 6 2007 issue...


2) Genetics, April 15, 2007 and Genetics, Vol. 176, 1131-1137, June 2007
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/176/2/1131

Evidence for de Novo Evolution* of Testis-Expressed Genes in the Drosophila yakuba/Drosophila erecta Clade

The mutational origin and subsequent evolution of de novo genes, which are hypothesized to be genes of recent origin that are not obviously related to ancestral coding sequence, are poorly understood. However, accumulating evidence suggests that such genes may often function in male reproduction. Here we use testis-derived expressed sequence tags (ESTs) from Drosophila yakuba to identify genes that have likely arisen either in D. yakuba or in the D. yakuba/D. erecta ancestor. We found several such genes, which show testis-biased expression and are often X-linked. Comparative data indicate that three of these genes have very short open reading frames, which suggests the possibility that a significant number of testis-biased de novo genes in the D. yakuba/D. erecta clade may be noncoding RNA genes. These data, along with previously published data from D. melanogaster, support the idea that many de novo Drosophila genes function in male reproduction and that a small region of the X chromosome in the melanogaster subgroup may be a hotspot for the evolution of novel testis-biased genes.

* An accidental, non-intentional correct 'non-scientific' application of the term de novo...

Dov Henis
Nick
Someone once told me do not search for the meanining of life and to find the meaning of your own instead. Contemplate your purpose in other words.

HenisDov
QUOTE (Nick+Jul 26 2007, 03:13 AM)
Someone once told me do not search for the meanining of life and to find the meaning of your own instead. Contemplate your purpose in other words.

Yes,

Plain mathematics:

The more you learn, the more you know,
The more you know, the more you forget
The more you forget, the less you know

So.. why learn.
HenisDov
Genetics Is Wholistic Until It Arrives At Energy

A. ENCODE's Updated Gene Definition

http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/17/6/669

The ENCODE consortium is engaged in characterizing the human genome by various high-throughput experimental and computational techniques designed to characterize functional elements (The ENCODE Project Consortium 2007). While the landmark human genome sequencing surprised many with the small number (relative to simpler organisms) of protein-coding genes that sequence annotators could identify (21,000, according to the latest estimate), ENCODE highlights the number and complexity of the RNA transcripts that the genome produces. ENCODE suggests that it has changed our view of "what is a gene" considerably more than the sequencing of the Haemophilus influenza and human genomes did (Fleischmann et al. 1995; Lander et al. 2001; Venter et al. 2001). The discrepancy between previous protein-centric view of the gene and one that is revealed by the extensive transcriptional activity of the genome prompts a reconsideration of what a gene is and made ENCODE propose a new tentative updated gene definition:

"The gene is a union of genomic sequences encoding a coherent set of potentially overlapping functional products".


B. Genes Are Life's Base Organisms

Repeat from my opening post:

It is the "lifelihood" of genes that makes us and all other forms of life on Earth living organisms, and evolution has been the route of Life's ever more complexing progress since the first replication of the first gene.

Early independent peptides, primordial genes, have entered into symbiotic associations in which eventually each of the ever increasing host of functions/tasks vital for the evolving associations is taken up by the member most efficient at it, leading to gene speciation and to gene specialization.

The history of life begins with independent genes, cascading fractally from single independent genes to agregate of genes, then to agregate of agregate of genes. Cooperative association is an inherent feature of life throughout all its evolution and at all its levels, in pre-cell and in mono-cell life and in mono-cell communities and in poly-cell life-forms and in communities of poly-cell life forms.


C. Today's Genes Were Once Genomes

Today's genes are pre-today's-genomes'-genomes. Keep uncomplexing today's genomes and you get, fractally, sub-genomes until you reach the primordial independent genes. However, evolution complexing have rendered all the fractal base elements completely interdependent. There's no going back to independent genes.


D. Genetics Is Wholistic Until It Arrives At Energy

The farthest we go in reductionism in Life we shall still end up with wholism, until we arrive at energy. Energy is the base element of everything and of all in the universe. The universe and evrything in it are continuously evolving and all the evolutions are intertwined.


Dov
HenisDov
On Evolution's Genomic Driving Forces


A. On Evolution of Unique Human Traits
(non-updated concept. DH)

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/index.php?kw=30

Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
30-Jul-2007

Quote
AURORA, Colo. (Tues., July 31, 2007) – Today, researchers from the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, along with colleagues from Stanford University, report the results of a large-scale, genome-wide study to investigate gene copy number differences among ten primate species, including humans. The study provides an overview of genes and gene families that have undergone major copy number expansions and contractions in different primate lineages spanning approximately 60 million years of evolutionary time. In the report, which appears online in Genome Research (www.genome.org), the scientists speculate how unique, lineage-specific gene copy number expansions and contractions in humans may underlie traits such as endurance running, higher cognitive function, and susceptibility genetic disease.

Primates first appeared on earth approximately 90 million years ago, and today, about 300 different species of primates exist. “One of the main genomic driving forces in primate evolution is gene duplication,” explains Dr. James Sikela, Professor at the University of Colorado. “To our knowledge, this study is the most comprehensive assessment of gene copy number variation across human and non-human primate species so far.”

To survey the differences in gene copy number among these species, Sikela and colleagues used DNA microarrays containing over 24,000 human genes to perform comparative genomic hybridization experiments. They compared DNA samples from humans to those of nine other primate species: chimpanzee, gorilla, bonobo, orangutan, gibbon, macaque, baboon, marmoset, and lemur. This allowed them to identify specific genes and gene families that, through evolutionary time, have undergone lineage-specific copy number gains and losses.

The authors of the report suggest that “many of the genes identified are likely to be important to lineage-specific traits found in humans and in the other primate lineages surveyed.” To illustrate this potential, the scientists highlighted several gene families that exhibited striking lineage-specific differences. In particular, the human lineage-specific copy number expansion of a gene called AQP7 could explain why humans have evolved the capacity for endurance running. AQP7, or aquaporin 7, plays a role in transporting water and glycerol across membranes. Therefore, it may facilitate the mobilization of glycogen (energy) stores during long periods of intense exercise; it may also play a role in dissipating excess heat through sweating.

The scientists also found dramatic gene copy number differences potentially associated with cognition, reproduction, immune function, and susceptibility to genetic disease. end quote


B. Non-updated Concept

1) "One of the main genomic driving forces in primate evolution is gene duplication".

No, no, no. Gene duplication is just a replication mechanism; definitely not a and certainly not main evolution driving force. The driving force is Darwin's old survival requirement. Plain and simple. During the replication process, when genes are at a junction with several options of nonidentical selfrepeat (definitely not duplication), they proceed with the option selected via the feedback of the surviving organism, which is the surviving genome.

2) "copy number expansion of a gene called AQP7 could explain why humans have evolved the capacity for endurance running. AQP7, or aquaporin 7, plays a role in transporting water and glycerol etc.,..."

No, no, no. This is placing the horse at the rear of the wagon. The better capacity for endurance running has brought about the evolution of AQP7, which in turn further increased the endurance capacity.

C. Get It Thru (True) Your Head: It Is Living Experiences That Drive the Evolution of Genomes

Again and again I re-explain the meaning and consequences of Darwin's observations, i.e. that the extent of the relative stability of compositions of genomes, genomes being Earth's live organisms, is proportional to their survival's dependence on physiological adaptation. The more the genome, the organism, depends on physiological adaptation for survival the more its composition changes. On the other hand the further complexed is the culture of the genome, of the organism, the smaller is the number of its genes that change for survival and simultanously the greater is the number of variations-changes in its genes involved in its culture. Its culture serves it for survival in lieu of physiological adaptation. It modifies its environment instead of adapting to its environments.

Oooof,

Dov
HenisDov
Natural Selection Is At Genomic Level

A. Back to where it started

- A recent find of a 400 million-year-old fossil of a coelacanth fin, the first finding of its kind, fills a shrinking evolutionary gap on fin-to-limbs evolution.

- In fish systems of multiple mating, females mate regularly and are able to store sperm for at least six months. Some of the intriguing questions are is there a role of female preference or of male-male competition in shaping the mating results in these fishes.


B. Darwinism seen in action in fish?

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/biology.php

University of California - Riverside
31-Jul-2007

Quote:

RIVERSIDE, Calif. – A research team, including UC Riverside biologists, has found experimental evidence that supports a controversial theory of genetic conflict in the reproduction of those animals that support their developing offspring through a placenta.

The conflict has been likened to a “battle of the sexes” or an “arms race” at the molecular level between mothers and fathers. At stake: the fetus’s growth rate and how much that costs the nutrient-supplying mother.

The new research supports the idea of a genetic “arms race” going on between a live-bearing mother and her offspring, assisted by the growth-promoting genes of the father.

Part of the significance of the research is in providing experimental proof of a theory put forth in the 1990s that holds that in animals with a placenta, genetic material from the father and the mother promote different growth rates in the embryo, producing a conflict over nutrients.

The placenta is a complex organ of maternal and fetal tissues that nourishes the developing fetus in the uterus.

Most mammals, excluding marsupials like the kangaroo and the koala, have a placenta. Because of the placenta, a developing embryo remains longer inside the mother (in marsupials, early development of the newborn occurs in the mother’s external pouch).

Evidence to support the conflict over nutrients theory has been found in placental mammals. But the new study is the first to look for this conflict in a species other than mammals that also have evolved placental reproduction.

“We worked with the fish family Poeciliidae and other families in the order Cyprinodontiformes, which included the poeciliids,” said David Reznick, a professor of biology at UCR and a leading authority on live-bearing fishes, who provided all of the life history information for the study.

Reznick explained that most fishes are egg-layers, but some species in the family Poeciliidae have evolved a placenta-like structure and give live birth.

The new research tested the conflict theory by studying samples of the IGF2 growth hormone (insulin-like growth factor 2) collected from 50 species of minnows. The IGF2 gene is found in all vertebrates (including fish and people), and is the primary fetal development growth hormone.

Reznick and the other researchers found that the IGF2 gene sequences had changed in some species of the minnows, showing that segments of the gene had evolved.

“In earlier research, we had found that the placenta had evolved independently several times in these fish,” Reznick said. “In the current research, we found a strong correlation between the evolution of live-bearing and placentation in these fish and the acceleration of the rate of evolution of IGF2 in the fish. This shows that IGF2 plays a vital role in not just mammals, but in fish as well.”


>> The researchers found that the biggest genetic changes were in those species of the minnows that had developed placentas, supporting the Darwinian theory of natural selection.

The study also provides independent support for the theory of conflict between the male and female genetic material in producing offspring. <<


In most animals, the male provides his genetic material for the offspring and leaves. The mother has a more intimate relationship with the fetus, nurturing it through her placenta and, in some animals, nursing and caring for the baby after it is born.

But while the father may not be present, the genetic material he provided is hard-wired to provide fast fetal growth, so that his offspring will be the hardiest, best survivors and the ones who demand the most of the mother’s placental nutrients.

The mother, on the other hand, provides genetic material that promotes the same growth level for all of her offspring, so that her nutrients will be available to support her and the offspring from all her matings.

End of quote

C. The two suggested conclusions of the experiment

are marked above (>> <<). I suggest that the results DO NOT support a conjucture of “battle of the sexes”, that the natural selection has nothing to do with competition between the male and female genetic material, and that the selection of the the genomic constitution of the offspring is a result of the parents' genomic feedbacks during its first formation, whish IS where and how Darwin's natural survival is expressed.

Dov
HenisDov
Immunity and Multicellularity,
and Getting High on Verbiage


A. Immunity in social amoeba suggests ancient beginnings
2-Aug-2007 Baylor College of Medicine

http://www.physorg.com/news105283565.html

Quote:

Finding an immune system in the social amoeba (Dictyostelium discoideum) is not only surprising but it also may prove a clue as to what is necessary for an organism to become multicellular, said the Baylor College of Medicine researcher who led the research that appears today in the journal Science.

Dictyostelium discoideum usually exists as a single-celled organism. However, when stressed by starvation, the single cells band together to form a slug that can move. Eventually the slug changes to produce cells that perform specific functions – spores and stalks. In this new report, Dr. Adam Kuspa, chair of biochemistry and molecular biology at BCM, and his colleagues describe a new kind of cell they dubbed a “sentinel” cell.

Sentinel cells circulate within the slug, engulfing invading bacteria and sequestering poisons or toxins, eventually eliminating these from the slug. These cells often operate through a particular mechanism in the cells controlled by a Toll/Interleukin-1 Receptor domain protein (TirA), Kuspa and his team found.

This signaling pathway or a very similar one is present in plants and animals, he said. Now it has been identified in amoeba. It has not been found in fungi.

“Amoeba have, in the last 10 years, become appreciated as one of the four main forms of life in the crown group of eukaryotic (multicellular) organisms – plants, animals, fungi and amoeba,” said Kuspa. “What allowed them to become multicellular"”

One way to estimate the characteristics of the organism that went before those that were multicellular is to look for characteristics that are present in two, three or all four of these main groups, he said.

“Those were likely present in the progenitor organism,” said Kuspa. Because three of the four major groups of organisms have this pathway, “I argue that means that the progenitor of all multicellular organisms had this pathway. Since that organism was not likely multicellular, it must have used it as some kind of signaling to respond to bacteria in the environment.”

Looking at it from another point of view, “it’s possible that one of the properties of those (crown) organisms that allowed them to become multicellular was the ability to distinguish self from non-self – the hallmark of an immune system,” said Kuspa. “The speculation is that a requirement of multicellularity is that you develop systems to recognize pathogens and other non-self cells from yourself.”

Kuspa sees two paths for future research in the area. One is to look for evidence of the same immune mechanism and protein in other kinds of amoeba. The other is to look at unicellular organisms to determine if they have this same kind of immune signaling pathway.

“If none of the early diverging organisms that never became multicellular developed this kind of signaling system, it would subtly strengthen our argument,” he said.

end of Quote


B. Memory, Sentience and Consciousness
4 October 2005, Dov Henis

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=174

- Cultural functions and processes are actual, not analogical/metaphorical, extensions of inter- and intra-cell processes, and are for the same ends as those of biological processes, i.e. for survival of our genome.

- All organisms, also single-celled, have consciousness. It is the complexity of consciousness that varies from organism to organism. The baseline of consciousness is sensing mechanisms plus accompanying reaction processes.

- Immune system is common to ALL organisms. In its scope and features in humans and other animals it is prevalent and common also in plants. Its baseline is MEMORY, i.e. production and storage of a unique proprietary protein tag stored somewhere in the organism as a record of a sensed matter or - yes - of a thought (formulated or read or heard) negotiated by the correct neurons.

The base thing to remember by all of us small or big, plain or sophisticated, poor or rich, religious or humanists etc., is that ALL our characteristics and capabilities are accumulations passed to us (plus slight modifications by us) by and via ALL our predecessors all the way back to the start of life, to the self-duplication of the first Earthly gene... And it is our unique language communications that made possible the evolution of conscious humans.


C. Everything In All Organisms Is About Darwin

- Antigens are large molecules (usually proteins) on the surface of cells, viruses, fungi, bacteria, and some non-living substances such as toxins, chemicals, drugs, and foreign particles. The immune system recognizes antigens and produces antibodies that destroy substances containing the antigens.

- "Clue as to what is necessary for an organism to become multicellular? and what allowed them (amoeba) to become multicellular?" ( see A above...)

- These questions and answers are not elucidated in the form of 'pseudo-sophisticated academEnglish verbiage. They have been posed and answered long ago by one C.Darwin, and further clarified by genetics. They are all about selected forms of survival of genomes in changing or in adverse environments, and in microorganisms they are about selected forms of adaptation and survival mechanisms such as biofilm formation, quorum sensing and antimicrobial resistance, and in amoeba it is all about...(see A above...).

Dov
Derek1148
“Life is a disease; and the only difference between one man and another is the stage of the disease at which he lives.” (George Bernard Shaw)
HenisDov
AAAS Hinders Science Progress
by its life evolution presentation


A. Terms:

1) AAAS = American Association for the Advancement of Science.
2) Progress = a forward or onward movement towards an objective, a gradual betterment.
3) Science = knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding, sometimes systematized object study and knowledge of patterns of phenomena/process obtained and tested through agreed science-defined methods.

B. From AAAS Project 2061, Chapter 5,
on evolution of life:


1) In the section about Cells: "the structure and functioning of cells, the basic building blocks of all organisms". Here and throughout the book the Cells are refered to as Organisms.

2) On heredity: "New heritable characteristics can result from new combinations of parents’ genes or from mutations of them. Except for mutation of the DNA in an organism’s sex cells, the characteristics that result from occurrences during the organism’s lifetime cannot be biologically passed on to the next generation. Thus, for example, changes in an individual caused by use or disuse of a structure or function, or by changes in its environment, cannot be promulgated by natural selection."

C. The Above Two Presentations Are Scientifically Incorrect

1) Again and again, the cells of organisms are NOT the organisms. The cells are the the functional housings of "the basic building blocks of all organisms", which are the genomes of the organisms, of which we presently know circa 1.8 miliion species. It is now routine to extract a genome from its cell, replace it with another genome of a fresh suitable zygote, and proceed with life evoluton.

2) And again and again, "characteristics that result from occurrences during the organism’s lifetime" become feedback input to the genomes of the next generation(s) and affect the selection of path of genome's mutation upon replication, thus biologically passing on to future generation.
This is how we evolved differently from our ancestors. Our forefathers' new circumstances ( from forests to plains ) dictated new survival acts, i.e. new culture, which served as feedback to our genome, whose selection of possible mutations was made richer and biased with the new feedback possibilities.

Dov
HenisDov
AAASP's Hypocritical Science-Religion Congruousness
Hinders Science Progress



A. Terms:

1) AAASP = American Association Against Science Progress
2) Congruous = being in agreement, harmony, or correspondence or conforming to the circumstances or requirements of a situation, or marked or enhanced by harmonious agreement among constituent elements.
3) Hypocrisy = a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion.


B.AAAS book, 9 August 2006, In Praise of Hypocrisy

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...t-abe080906.php

- The Evolution Dialogues: Science, Christianity, and the Quest for Understanding
the rich and complex historical interaction of evolution and Christianity.

- Jack Haught, a Georgetown University theologian, said the book "will prove to be very helpful to teachers and students of biology, especially where questions might arise about the scientific status of Darwin's theory and the religious implications of evolution." Haught said the book "exhibits not only prudence and judiciousness, but also an erudite understanding of the distinct modes of understanding characteristic of science and religion. A major benefit of this project is that it demonstrates how a religious understanding of the world need not be looked upon as an alternative to evolutionary science and vice-versa."

Rodger Bybee, executive director of the nonprofit Biological Sciences Curriculum Study, said the book "will be an excellent, positive contribution to a contemporary understanding of evolution and religion."


C. Notes On Science-Religion Incongruity

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=177

plus additional entries in

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1


Dov
HenisDov
Evolution's Drive

A. Evolution's Drive Is By Gene Regulation?

Evolution is driven by gene regulation
9-Aug-2007, Yale University

http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/biology.php

Quote:

New Haven, Conn. — It is not just what’s in your genes, it’s how you turn them on that accounts for the difference between species — at least in yeast — according to a report by Yale researchers in this week’s issue of Science.

“We’ve known for a while that the protein coding genes of humans and chimpanzees are about 99 percent the same,” said senior author Michael Snyder, the Cullman Professor of Molecular Cellular and Developmental Biology at Yale. “The challenge for biologists is accounting for what causes the substantial difference between the person and the chimp.”

Conventional wisdom has been that if the difference is not the gene content, the difference must be in the way regulation of genes produces their protein products.

Comparing gene regulation across similar organisms has been difficult because the nucleotide sequence of DNA regulatory regions, or promoters, are more variable than the sequences of their corresponding protein-coding regions, making them harder to identify by standard computer comparisons.

“While many molecules that bind DNA regulatory regions have been identified as transcription factors mediating gene regulation, we have now shown that we can functionally map these interactions and identify the specific targeted promoters,” said Snyder. “We were startled to find that even the closely related species of yeast had extensively differing patterns of regulation.”

In this study, the authors found the DNA binding sites by aiming at their function, rather than their sequence. First, they isolated transcription factors that were specifically bound to DNA at their promoter sites. Then, they analyzed the sequences that were isolated to determine the similarities and differences in regulatory regions between the different species.

“By using a group of closely and more distantly related yeast whose sequences were well documented, we were able to see functional differences that had been invisible to researchers before,” said Snyder. “We expect that this approach will get us closer to understanding the balance between gene content and gene regulation in the question of human-chimp diversity.”

end of quote


B. Oh, Feedback Loops, Organism's Culture!

Give them some more time and they will discover that what now seems to them "the way regulation of genes produces their protein products" will turn out to be, after all, "the way genes are regulated", which involves "regulators of gene regulation" and "regulators of regulators etc.," and it's a sure bet that it will finaly dawn on them that:

From "Human-Chimp Genomes Diversity", 2 June 2005, at

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=179

"During differentiation, precursor cells with progressively narrowed potential give rise to progeny cells that adopt one of two (or more) divergent cell fates. This choice is influenced by intricate regulatory networks acting at multiple levels. Early in differentiation, precursor cells show low-level activation of all progeny genetic programs. Bias toward a given lineage comes from environmental inputs that activate powerful positive- and negative- feedback loops, which work in concert to impose selective gene expression patterns".

Dov
StevenA
A thought I'd had a few times over the idea that conscious will is an illusion and life is driven by "external" natural forces is that, if that's the case, then when I decide to do something and act upon those desires, then such a viewpoint implies the universe, in its (unjustifiably assumed) entirely deterministic manner, has been "doing its thing" for who knows exactly how long, just to reach the current moment in which I had the ability to perform that action.

It's the flip side of the "conscious will is an illusion" claim, that the universe has instead been designed to support conscious actions. A point of view that supports both is that there remains an "external" immutable source of information that's subjectively interpreted in ways that are molded by consciousness. I believe this view is also more accurate in that it accounts for subjective variations in how "reality" is witnessed (objective reality is less tangible than the various subjective versions of it that we all live in).

The reason why there's a pressure to assume the universe is entirely deterministic and ruled by perfectly accurate and immutable natural laws is because those are the only forms of it that can be utilized socially, as it's only the recurring features that can be predicted and included as knowledge for future utilitization, though it appears obvious to me that not all of existance can be seen as entirely deterministic and predictable if knowledge is to remain something that changes, as then knowledge is dynamic and driven externally by things outside it (and a static knowledge seems to deny the existance of experience and time).

Also, if evolutionary pressures have resulted in conscious life, this implies either that consciousness is pervasive and unavoidable or that consciousness imparts an evolutionary advantage upon a species, in which case this leads to the conclusion that either consciousness predominates the universe or does indeed have physical influences that, at a minimum, influence the survivability of a species.

Maybe evolution is a conscious creation? (There are always (at least) two sides to a story.)
Mirrorman
QUOTE (StevenA+Aug 11 2007, 02:33 PM)
A thought I'd had a few times over the idea that conscious will is an illusion and life is driven by "external" natural forces is that, if that's the case, then when I decide to do something and act upon those desires, then such a viewpoint implies the universe, in its (unjustifiably assumed) entirely deterministic manner, has been "doing its thing" for who knows exactly how long, just to reach the current moment in which I had the ability to perform that action.

It's the flip side of the "conscious will is an illusion" claim, that the universe has instead been designed to support conscious actions. A point of view that supports both is that there remains an "external" immutable source of information that's subjectively interpreted in ways that are molded by consciousness. I believe this view is also more accurate in that it accounts for subjective variations in how "reality" is witnessed (objective reality is less tangible than the various subjective versions of it that we all live in).

The reason why there's a pressure to assume the universe is entirely deterministic and ruled by perfectly accurate and immutable natural laws is because those are the only forms of it that can be utilized socially, as it's only the recurring features that can be predicted and included as knowledge for future utilitization, though it appears obvious to me that not all of existance can be seen as entirely deterministic and predictable if knowledge is to remain something that changes, as then knowledge is dynamic and driven externally by things outside it (and a static knowledge seems to deny the existance of experience and time).

Also, if evolutionary pressures have resulted in conscious life, this implies either that consciousness is pervasive and unavoidable or that consciousness imparts an evolutionary advantage upon a species, in which case this leads to the conclusion that either consciousness predominates the universe or does indeed have physical influences that, at a minimum, influence the survivability of a species.

Maybe evolution is a conscious creation? (There are always (at least) two sides to a story.)

Can you believe that the odds of a universe that holds the finely tuned laws that create the conditions for life to exist are set at 10^138. That's how many potential universes people have to admit there are before they can justify a universe that brought life by chance. And all this because science can only observe quantifiable data.

The case for consciousness being an illusion is brought about because science finds the clothes that fit and calls it the whole person. But life will go on to show that this isn't the case, and evolution itself will be the driving force that will show consciouness to be what it is. When the inherent abilities in man evolve further, mainstream science will have to evolve with it. By "inherent abilities" I mean things that will have no basis on the mere clothing, but an act of the spirit that will show itself to being quantifiable.

The bonds that many religions placed on individual spiritual development were loosened by science itself, yet science is not yet aware of what it has helped set free. An awareness of the procedure is power to the observer, and the elements will be seen to react to the desire of spiritual man.
HenisDov
Friends,

Wise prudent science-informed evolutionists never philosophize. When they philosophize they become otherwise.

I prefer to stick to evolution and to biology.

Dov
StevenA
QUOTE (Mirrorman+)
Can you believe that the odds of a universe that holds the finely tuned laws that create the conditions for life to exist are set at 10^138.


I know this value relies on a lot of assumptions and though I don't know the details, I'd assume one of them is that life can only be organic, as we see on Earth and that many of the natural constants are randomly determined and unrelated.

I'd hazard a couple guesses that (1) we don't recognize life in more diverse forms because we can't communicate in the same way as we do with other people (or even animals) regarding it, and that we're also going to (2) discover there are fewer unrelated and independent physical constants. For example, the speed of light can't be measured in absolute terms but instead is measured in terms of ratios of delays between physical events. The speed of light in this case isn't directly measurable and could even be considered infinite, though it needs to retain various relationships to other physical processes in order to maintain things like the fine structure or gravitational constants. In this case they aren't independent constants (though it's very likely this specifically was considered in the above calculation, there can be other such relationships that haven't been discovered yet).

So both of these considerations can make life more likely to exist.

Also, if we look at sampling biases and assume life can't experience non-life, then it becomes 100% chance that life only experiences life. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Mirrorman+)
That's how many potential universes people have to admit there are before they can justify a universe that brought life by chance.


Yes, if the odds are calculated at anything less than ~1 in 20, that's typically enough to be technically referred to as "statistically significant" and deserving of attention. Obviously we're not seeing existance, on a broader scale, from a random perspective that includes primarily "dead" perspectives.

Now even if we assume the laws of nature we witness are the only possible ones that could exist, there's still a problem in explaining why we're not part of apparently 99.99%+ of it that's not alive. Again, either we don't understand life (or I tend to prefer referring to consciousness as life can be seen in more physical terms but consciousness is an even greater mystery with more impact upon personal experiences) and it's pervasive, or alternately we're just really lucky or of course we're subject to a bias in our experiences in that time doesn't pass subjectively for "dead" objects and only life is experienceable (though there's another question that can go along with this, from a social perspective we can only discuss experiences that are communicable as well and can't gain a handle on inexplicable or "incoherent" experiences, which can also possibly exist, though not in a coherent, communicable manner ... I see this as whether or not something can be predictable, which implies provable, and arise from rules and logic)

So even if there was only one set of natural laws possible, the odds of any particularly random collection of information in space appearing to contain life from our perspective appears close to zero and you'd be more likely to find a winning lottery ticket at the local drug store. biggrin.gif Obviously, something isn't entirely random.

QUOTE
And all this because science can only observe quantifiable data.


There have been some interesting insights that have occured even from a scientific perspective that appear to be discovering hard limits to what's logically provable. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is a great example of this and I've shown some things that indicate systems can't be entirely closed and cyclic and that the equivalent of a dimensionality of existance is lost or gains uncertainty when two independent systems communicate with each other (at least when this communication is discrete and symbolic, which should be the only form of communication we can rationally analyze, as far as I'm aware of ... unless there might be a way to utilize probabilistic communication ... I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud here).

An interesting extension of this would be to observe that 5 physical perceptions (I don't know if the 5 is concidental, but it may not be), allow us to understand a 4 dimensional spacetime, composed of 3 dimensional objects, conveying binary (2) information over 1 dimension of time. From that perspective, in reverse, maybe the mind really is a 6th sense? What would a 7th be etc.? Each view from a larger set of independent attributes (dimensions) conveys a lower dimensional representation over time, but this is an irreversible process and those lower dimensional observations can't reliably reconstruct the original higher dimensional space as information becomes lost due to uncertainties in the sequence of times, so you can't see consciousness arise from observations it makes and what the "self" is can't be reconstructed precisely from observations made solely from attributes possessed by the "self", without a dimension of uncertainty (often seen as problems in describing time) which makes a system incapable of observing itself precisely (and if you close it off entirely, in hopes of having it remain witnessable in a static form, no internal sense of time is available or order to do this so the system would have already have had to know what it was before it was isolated and time stopped).

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And all this because science can only observe quantifiable data.


There have been some interesting insights that have occured even from a scientific perspective that appear to be discovering hard limits to what's logically provable. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is a great example of this and I've shown some things that indicate systems can't be entirely closed and cyclic and that the equivalent of a dimensionality of existance is lost or gains uncertainty when two independent systems communicate with each other (at least when this communication is discrete and symbolic, which should be the only form of communication we can rationally analyze, as far as I'm aware of ... unless there might be a way to utilize probabilistic communication ... I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud here).

An interesting extension of this would be to observe that 5 physical perceptions (I don't know if the 5 is concidental, but it may not be), allow us to understand a 4 dimensional spacetime, composed of 3 dimensional objects, conveying binary (2) information over 1 dimension of time. From that perspective, in reverse, maybe the mind really is a 6th sense? What would a 7th be etc.? Each view from a larger set of independent attributes (dimensions) conveys a lower dimensional representation over time, but this is an irreversible process and those lower dimensional observations can't reliably reconstruct the original higher dimensional space as information becomes lost due to uncertainties in the sequence of times, so you can't see consciousness arise from observations it makes and what the "self" is can't be reconstructed precisely from observations made solely from attributes possessed by the "self", without a dimension of uncertainty (often seen as problems in describing time) which makes a system incapable of observing itself precisely (and if you close it off entirely, in hopes of having it remain witnessable in a static form, no internal sense of time is available or order to do this so the system would have already have had to know what it was before it was isolated and time stopped).

The case for consciousness being an illusion is brought about because science finds the clothes that fit and calls it the whole person. But life will go on to show that this isn't the case, and evolution itself will be the driving force that will show consciouness to be what it is. When the inherent abilities in man evolve further, mainstream science will have to evolve with it. By "inherent abilities" I mean things that will have no basis on the mere clothing, but an act of the spirit that will show itself to being quantifiable.


I had something verging on what I'd descrive as a spiritual experience when I was trying to brainstorm the general characteristics of properties seen in quantum mechanics. At first it began to look a lot like the universe could be effectively small and mirrored and possibly quite lonely biggrin.gif ... but seriously this was disturbing to me as, hey, it's my life and I don't want to be trapped in a little matrix. Then it hit me that science can only see from the physical outside and attempt to look in on the minds of individuals, but this is only possible to the extent that individual experiences can be physically observed and predictably understood, but there's a world outside of this. In effect, science is instead trapped on the inside of the physical box and we're looking at the inside from the outside, but there's a potentially infinite realm of experience beyond what's inside that box but there's no physical way to communicate it and much of it goes beyond rational explaination, some things just exist without explaination and any possible number of underlying causes or results could arise from them, but it's beyond the ability of society to understand as it lies in a lower dimensionality than individual experiences as it's derived from observations of individuals (and you lose a dimension due to effectively one channel/dimension being used for communication and so can't see all dimensions or attributes possessed by something at once from a first person perspective, second hand experiences are lower dimensional representations that have been retranslated into a higher dimensional form but are "thin" and insubstantial in that form, just like when we see an apple, we only see the surface (2-D) of it and aren't surrounded by the entirity of an apple in all its 3-D details).

QUOTE (Mirrorman+)
The bonds that many religions placed on individual spiritual development were loosened by science itself, yet science is not yet aware of what it has helped set free. An awareness of the procedure is power to the observer, and the elements will be seen to react to the desire of spiritual man.


I agree. I was raised a Mormon and though I consider it to have been a good learning experience, I can't take every statement in the Bible literally (and I believe all religions would contain flaws, though I found some of the more Eastern views to be interesting), and though there are likely a lot of moral insights I acquired that I'd consider valuable (but seriously, how can something like the story of Noah be literal? And even if it was then it would appear obvious that such miracles don't happen very often today), it just didn't all fall in place for me (maybe there is a God or various gods but I've never had a one-on-one session with the guy/gal/lifeform so I can't say much about it).

Then I headed toward science and it's great ... lots of fascinating things to learn and it's empowering to not feel reliant on the benevolence of some greater being in order to get by (or the possibility of having others with not so good intentions trying to speak for such a supreme entity), but I've come to see better now what a lot of people have been wondering about for a long time and science truly can only give you some pointers but there's a realm of experience and knowledge for everyone that's entirely unique and individual and science, as a social institution, can't travel along with you, though you can learn personal things beyond that and it's even possible there are things that can only be experienced but not understood, as many religious views might appear to imply and science appears able to prove - yes, there's "something" beyond and it appears to be entirely subjective and individual and noone else can do much more than give a few pointers or maybe highlight the direction of a doorway, but beyond appears to lie the unknowns of "self". Meanwhile religions will keep guessing and science will be trying to calculate odds of those guesses but only individuals will ever know and I happen to think that works out just fine! biggrin.gif
Derek1148
There is more to the purpose of life than biology and science.

“Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim.” (Bertrand Russell)
Grumpy
I find it funny when someone trots out this or that likelyhood for something that has already happened.

The fact is that the odds that we would end up with the universe we see is exactly 1 in 1, 100%, absolute certainty. Otherwise we would not be here

Grumpy cool.gif
Mirrorman
QUOTE (Grumpy+Aug 12 2007, 02:11 AM)
I find it funny when someone trots out this or that likelyhood for something that has already happened.

The fact is that the odds that we would end up with the universe we see is exactly 1 in 1, 100%, absolute certainty. Otherwise we would not be here

Grumpy cool.gif

What a silly shallow argument.
gmilam
QUOTE (Mirrorman+Aug 11 2007, 08:34 PM)
What a silly shallow argument.

Actually it's an excellent argument. We are here.

It's easy to look after the fact and see how amazingly organized the universe seems to be "just for us". But the truth is, had it been different, we either wouldn't be here or we'd be different too.

What are the odds that after 50 years I'd be divorced, programming computers for a living and playing music in bars at night? (Except for this weekend - when I'm spending Saturday night on a science forum of all things.) Apparently 1 in 1. 100%. 'Cuz here I am.

Derek1148
QUOTE (gmilam+Aug 12 2007, 02:57 AM)
Actually it's an excellent argument. We are here.

It's easy to look after the fact and see how amazingly organized the universe seems to be "just for us". But the truth is, had it been different, we either wouldn't be here or we'd be different too.

What are the odds that after 50 years I'd be divorced, programming computers for a living and playing music in bars at night? (Except for this weekend - when I'm spending Saturday night on a science forum of all things.) Apparently 1 in 1. 100%. 'Cuz here I am.

It is all random. “…full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
gmilam
QUOTE (Derek1148+Aug 11 2007, 09:06 PM)
It is all random. “…full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

Bill was a wise man.
Derek1148
QUOTE (gmilam+Aug 12 2007, 03:16 AM)
Bill was a wise man.

Agreed.
Mirrorman
QUOTE (gmilam+Aug 12 2007, 02:57 AM)
Actually it's an excellent argument. We are here.

It's easy to look after the fact and see how amazingly organized the universe seems to be "just for us". But the truth is, had it been different, we either wouldn't be here or we'd be different too.

What are the odds that after 50 years I'd be divorced, programming computers for a living and playing music in bars at night? (Except for this weekend - when I'm spending Saturday night on a science forum of all things.) Apparently 1 in 1. 100%. 'Cuz here I am.

Well I think it is pretty shallow from the point of view that it is refusing to accept responsibilty for the chances involved. The chance aspect has not suddenly dissappeared just because this is where we find ourselves. What are the chances of accidently murdering someone? "the gun was in my hand, my finger pulled the trigger and so the chances of my murdering someone were 1:1"? On the one hand some like to consider the whole thing a matter of chance, and on the other hand they also like to eliminate any such chance. It is either one or the other. If it is by chance then we have to take into account the incredible odds. If there was no chance about it, then we have to ponder the definate set up, which the odds say are practically zero as occuring by chance. What are the chances of rolling dice 25 times and getting 25 sevens in a row? It is possible, so how much will you place that your next 25 will bring about this feat? You should place the same amount of money on the argument that we are here because we are here. I'm going to place a tentative dollar on my rolling 25 sevens. I won't place any money on the notion that something came from nothing.

Too hot here to want to do a gig. We got a few in October in the usual pubs and clubs, where people like a few pints and some good old Rock and Blues.:-) No chance of getting away with Rap there!
gmilam
What are the odds any sentient lifeform would emerge somewhere in the universe? Unknown.

Actually I would say 100% - cuz here we are. But there may be zillions of other intelligent lifeforms out there. (Zillions - that's a very scientific term meaning "a lot". rolleyes.gif )

If the universe had been different, what are the odds any sentient lifeform would emerge? Again - Unknown.

Off topic: Down here in Texas you may catch me playing blues, classic rock or folk... sometimes on the same night. It's not unusual to follow a Pink Floyd tune with Willie Nelson. (I can also live without the rap.)
HenisDov
On Diverting Conceits and Epigrams

"Obviously this thread is being raped and diverted from its target theme and from its core approach. Having fun?" (Dov Henis)
Confused2
Hopefully back on topic..

A/ Preservation
B/ Procreation

Best wishes - C2.
Gorgeous
QUOTE
What are the chances of accidently murdering someone? "the gun was in my hand, my finger pulled the trigger and so the chances of my murdering someone were 1:1"? On the one hand some like to consider the whole thing a matter of chance, and on the other hand they also like to eliminate any such chance. It is either one or the other.


It is not 'one or the other'. We have evolved a certain amount of 'freedom of choice', and are still doing so, obviously, as we are still evolving - there is no 'goal' of evolution. This 'freedom' increases as our knowledge does. This does not make us 'wise'. With more knowledge/understanding we are able to expand our choices, but there is a price. Expanding into the unknown blindly, creates unforseen problems, and so we must learn to take small, incremental steps, in order to develop the wisdom to use new understanding harmoniously. This is what Nature does, and we must comply with it, whatever we might 'believe'. Creating large exploding devices and then giving the local monkey the power to press its buttons, can be seen as an 'unforseen problem' - too giant a leap for simiankind.

What are the chances of accidently murdering someone? - How about, "I was only driving my car to and from work. How was I to know that the whole planet would suffer for it?"

A/Preservation
B/Procreation
C/Progression


g.
HenisDov
QUOTE (Confused2+Aug 12 2007, 10:31 AM)
Hopefully back on topic..


Direct Path From Outside Cell Membrane To Its Genome

Aug 10 2007

http://www.physorg.com/news105974523.html

Simply exhilarating.

Not only the demonstration of the path, but furthermore the added demonstration that the cell membrane system has been evolved by the cell's genome as its dynamic multi-purpose functional organ.

Just beautiful!

Dov
HenisDov
QUOTE (HenisDov+Aug 9 2007, 08:23 PM)
AAAS Hinders Science Progress
by its life evolution presentation


B. From AAAS Project 2061, Chapter 5,
on evolution of life:


1) In the section about Cells: "the structure and functioning of cells, the basic building blocks of all organisms".  Here and throughout the book the Cells are refered to as Organisms.

I feel obliged to add the following two sentences in the AAAS Project 2061 book that caught my eyes later:

- "The earth's present-day life forms appear to have evolved from common ancestors reaching back to the simplest one-cell organisms almost four billion years ago."

- "At the very beginning, simple molecules may have formed complex molecules that eventually formed into cells capable of self-replication."

Dov
StevenA
Here's an article you might enjoy reading, "HenisDov"

http://www.physorg.com/news106316857.html
HenisDov
Life Is Inherently A Cooperative System


A. Moth and Cactus, Mutualistic Relationships
Aug 13 2007

http://www.physorg.com/news106244969.html

"We want to understand how the structure of mutualistic communities influences their stability and dynamics, both of individual species and of whole networks of species."


B. There are ten times more bacteria cells colonizing a human body than the number of the human's own cells in its body... see:

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=168
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB...G_Q--?cq=1&p=86
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLB..._Q--?cq=1&p=110


Dov
Confused2
On another thread I suggested that the environment an organism has evolved in is 'most likely' to be a suitable environment for the organism to continue to exist in. The suggestion was generally agreed to be 'absurd'.

I am sure we are all aware of the way the population of bugs in sealed bottle will initially grow exponentially and then crash once all the resources in the bottle have been consumed. Is it possible that a bug could ever evolve the ability to avoid the population crash by developing (say) some form of collective 'self-awareness' or 'intelligence' or is the fate of every bug sealed from the outset?
HenisDov
QUOTE (StevenA+Aug 15 2007, 04:08 AM)
Here's an article you might enjoy reading, "HenisDov"

http://www.physorg.com/news106316857.html

StevenA,

Thanks for the reference.

I suggest, though, that the academEnglish "genetically specified latent memory" is what I have been refering to as "feedback" by the culture (life experiences) of the organism to its genome, which affects the selections made by its member genes when they are at their next replication junctions.

Dov
HenisDov
QUOTE (Confused2+Aug 15 2007, 09:10 AM)
On another thread I suggested that the environment an organism has evolved in is 'most likely' to be a suitable environment for the organism to continue to exist in. The suggestion was generally agreed to be 'absurd'.

I am sure we are all aware of the way the population of bugs in sealed bottle will initially grow exponentially and then crash once all the resources in the bottle have been consumed. Is it possible that a bug could ever evolve the ability to avoid the population crash by developing (say) some form of collective 'self-awareness' or 'intelligence' or is the fate of every bug sealed from the outset?


C2,

My postings/comments are based solely on informal self-learning.

The general "absurdity" of your suggestion is "evidenced" by the degree of stability of the the cells' atmospheres, i.e. plasmas, which are the environments in which the genomes, the organisms, evolved and live. However, as we all know, organisms/genomes, both mono and multi-cells, if given enough time at new relatively stable environments, can and may evolve the capabilities/functionalities required for survival. The key words are time at stable environments, and survival...

I think,

Dov
HenisDov
Natural Selection Is A Two Level Interdependent Affair

From:
Unravelling new complexity in the genome
Aug 13 2007, Source: University of Toronto

http://www.physorg.com/news106242954.html

QUOTE
1) A major surprise emerging from genome sequencing projects is that humans have a comparable number of protein-coding genes as significantly less complex organisms such as the minute nematode worm Caenorhabditis elegans. Clearly something other than gene count is behind the genetic differences between simpler and more complex life forms.  Increased functional and cellular complexity can be explained, in large part, by how genes and the products of genes are regulated.

2) A University of Toronto-led study published in the latest issue of Genome Biology reveals that a step in gene expression (referred to as alternative splicing) is more highly regulated in a cell and tissue-specific manner than previously appreciated and much of this additional regulation occurs in the nervous system. The alternative splicing step allows a single gene to specify multiple protein products by processing the RNA transcripts made from genes (which are translated to make protein).

3) A challenge now is to figure out how the alternative splicing process is regulated in a cell and tissue-specific manner. In their new paper in Genome Biology, Dr. Yoseph Barash, a postdoctoral fellow working jointly with Blencowe and Frey, has provided what is likely part of the answer. By applying computational methods to the gene chip data generated by Matthew Fagnani (an MSc student) and other members of the Blencowe lab, Barash has uncovered what appears to be part of a “regulatory code” that controls alternative splicing patterns in the brain.

- One outcome of these new studies is that the alternative splicing process appears to provide a largely separate layer of gene regulation that works in parallel with other important steps in gene regulation. “The number of genes and coordinated regulatory events involved in specifying cell and tissue type characteristics appear to be considerably more extensive than appreciated in previous studies,” says Blencowe.



1) - "something other than gene count is behind genetic differences between simpler and more complex life forms". Yes. Evolution, i.e. genome/genes modifications, inherently ever more of them as new functional options arise.

- Again and again, modififications of genome's functional capabilities can be explained by "how genes and the products of genes are regulated". Yes. By the organism's culture-life-experience feedback to its genome, also an organism.

2) - The route-modification selection of a replicating gene, when it is at its alternative-splicing-steps junction, is affected and biased by the feedback gained by the genome from the culture-life-experience of its organism. THIS IS HOW EVOLUTION COMES ABOUT.

3) The "challenge now is to figure out how the alternative splicing process is regulated in a cell and tissue-specific manner". Translation: to figure out the detailed seperate steps involved in introducing and impressing the organism's experiences (culture) feedbacks on its genome's genes, followed by the detailed seperate steps involved in biasing-directing the genes to prefer-select the biased-favored splicing.

4) I find it astonishing that very few persons, non-professional as well as professional biologists-evolutionists, have the clear conception that selection for survival occurs on two interdependent levels: (a) during the life of the organism in its environment, and (b) during the life of the organism's genome, who is also an organism. Most, if not all, persons think - incorrectly - that evolution is about randomly occurring genes-genome modifications followed with selection by survival of the organism in its environment. This is only partly correct. Evolution is the interdependent , interactive and interenhencing selection at both the two above levels.

I suggest,

Dov

StevenA
QUOTE (HenisDov+)
selection for survival occurs on two interdependent levels: (a) during the life of the organism in its environment, and (cool.gif during the life of the organism's genome, who is also an organism. Most, if not all, persons think - incorrectly - that evolution is about randomly occurring genes-genome modifications followed with selection by survival of the organism in its environment. This is only partly correct. Evolution is the interdependent , interactive and interenhencing selection at both the two above levels.


That's definitely something interesting to consider. Every cell in the body is effectly undergoing evolutionary pressures in parallel and to whatever extent these have an ability to affect genetic traits in offspring, they'd play a role in evolution as well.

There was an interesting article GoodElf presented a while back that showed the appearance of virtual atoms within an array/crystal/lattice of atoms. If copies of DNA with an organism aren't entirely independent and "untangled", there might be some manner in which correlations between physically separate units of DNA can interact (obviously there's the possibility for such "entanglement" considering they were created from physical interactions with some "seed" in the past). This wouldn't appear under traditional physical views likely, to have a large influence on the composition of any specific DNA, but it's a subject that appears to still be in its infancy in physics and will likely only grow in significance.

Something to consider is what various physical forms crystalline/fractal structures would appear to have. We have the simple 3, 4 and 6 fold symmetries in crystals, and the quasi-periodic 5 fold Penrose tilings, which took longer to discover, but it's interesting to consider that more complex structures could appear rather random or interleaved within space and not have a regular/periodic 3-D representation, though the effects might be indirectly detectable (for example, I assume there's truly only one physical feature that all electrons share and that being attached to various properties in time or space makes multiple electrons appear to exist, but if that physical attribute that uniquely defined what electrons were was altered it would also change physical relationships observed in all other electrons. This could also be seen as the reason why quantization exists at a fundamental physical level - whatever attribute(s) uniquely define(s) an electron is physically shared by all electrons and so they're seen as quantized units, not because they have any specific quantized form but because they're identical, however complex or simple they are).
HenisDov
The Impetus Of Paleozoic Multicelled Evolution


QUOTE
Natural Selection Is A Two Level Interdependent Affair
Dov, in earlier posts:

1) Evolution, i.e. genome/genes modifications, inherently ever more of them as new functional options arise.

2) modififications of genome's functional capabilities can be explained by  the organism's culture-life-experience feedbacks to its genome, its base organism. The route-modification selection of a replicating gene, when it is at its alternative-splicing-steps junction, is  biased by the feedback gained by the genome, the parent organism, from the culture-life-experience of its progeny big organism.  THIS IS HOW EVOLUTION COMES ABOUT.

3) The challenge now is to figure out the detailed seperate steps involved in introducing and impressing the big organism's experiences (culture) feedbacks on its founding parents' genome's genes, followed by the detailed seperate steps involved in biasing-directing the genes to prefer-select the biased-favored splicing.

4) I find it astonishing that very few persons, non-professional as well as professional biologists-evolutionists, have the clear conception that selection for survival occurs on two interdependent levels - (a) during the life of the big progeny organism in its environment, and (b) during the life of its genome, which is also an organism.  Most, if not all, persons think - incorrectly - that evolution is about randomly occurring genes-genome modifications followed with selection by survival of the big progeny organism in its environment. Whereas actually evolution is the interdependent , interactive and interenhencing selection at both the two above levels.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Natural Selection Is A Two Level Interdependent Affair
Dov, in earlier posts:

1) Evolution, i.e. genome/genes modifications, inherently ever more of them as new functional options arise.

2) modififications of genome's functional capabilities can be explained by  the organism's culture-life-experience feedbacks to its genome, its base organism. The route-modification selection of a replicating gene, when it is at its alternative-splicing-steps junction, is  biased by the feedback gained by the genome, the parent organism, from the culture-life-experience of its progeny big organism.  THIS IS HOW EVOLUTION COMES ABOUT.

3) The challenge now is to figure out the detailed seperate steps involved in introducing and impressing the big organism's experiences (culture) feedbacks on its founding parents' genome's genes, followed by the detailed seperate steps involved in biasing-directing the genes to prefer-select the biased-favored splicing.

4) I find it astonishing that very few persons, non-professional as well as professional biologists-evolutionists, have the clear conception that selection for survival occurs on two interdependent levels - (a) during the life of the big progeny organism in its environment, and (b) during the life of its genome, which is also an organism.  Most, if not all, persons think - incorrectly - that evolution is about randomly occurring genes-genome modifications followed with selection by survival of the big progeny organism in its environment. Whereas actually evolution is the interdependent , interactive and interenhencing selection at both the two above levels.


Earth Life's Timeline

http://anthro.palomar.edu/earlyprimates/ti..._of_earth_1.htm


1) The first clear evidence of life, single celled bacteria, has been evidenced since circa 3.5 BYA. The onset of the multi-celled ancient life forms is evidenced circa 542 MYA, in the Cambrian period during the Paleozoic era.

2) The age of the Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years, but it's not always easy to grasp the concept of how old our planet really is. To give you an idea of where we fit into that vast span of time, imagine all those 4.6 billion years compressed into a single year. In such a time frame, the Precambrian Era (during which the first life forms evolved) would last from January 1 to mid-November; the Paleozoic Era (the age of invertebrates and primitive fishes) would take up the rest of November and part of December, while the Mesozoic (the age of dinosaurs) would take up most of the remainder of December. Our time, the Quaternary, would occupy only the last four hours on New Year's Eve.

3)
- Life started in the form of single independent naked homeless genes,
- that evolved into genes aggregates and eventually into genomes,
- that evolved membraned cells to control their immediate environment,
- and then evolved the cell membranes into a multi-function organ sensing, reporting and
utilizing the out-of-cell environment for the genome, i.e. doing its culture,
- thus starting the culture-life-experiance feedback to the genome-genes for evolution,
- and then extending the innate genes' cooperation to various forms of cells' cooperation,
- i.e. to organs in multicelled organisms and to various forms of cells' associations,
- and the more the consequent experiences and their feedbacks to the parent genomes the more the
optional alternative-splicing-steps to the founding parents genomes...

Let's remember that life and evolution is about genomes and genes. Each and all Organisms on Earth, including you and me, are creations-manifestations of the ever-evolving genes-genomes that came into being in the Proterozoic era. All of us are simply the products of their best efforts to survive...

I think,

Dov
HenisDov
Aging And Genetics

Evolution-Survival Rediscovered


http://www.physorg.com/news107180970.html


QUOTE
"genes associated with longevity also became more common in each succeeding cohort. These results indicate that the frequency of deleterious genotypes may increase among people who live to extremely old ages because their protective genes allow these disease-related genes to accumulate,”


It appears that Evolution and Selection For Survival have just been re-discovered.

When when when will "scientists" and "science literature editors" get it through their scientific skulls that the source of our (and others species') individuals' uniqueness is the genome's polymorphisms, which come about from polymorphisms of its member genes.

it is about time that "scientists" make the Life Evolution mental leap, that they swallow and digest the revelation that a genome is a living complex organism consisting of (by now) interdependent symbiotic living member genes.

Suggesting,

Dov

HenisDov
Life's Fractal Evolution

This is what I learn from the CBF1 switch, from
http://www.physorg.com/news107357572.html


The major fractal chronological 10^8-years macro layers of Life's evolution:

1 - Individual independent genes evolve into cooperative interdependent gene aggregates.

2 - The outer cell's membrane (OCM) evolves as the first and major multi-functional organ of the gene aggregates/genomes.

3 - Individual cells evolve into symbiotic systems.

4 - Evolution of multicellular organisms.

The biggest hindrance of scientific, and even technological, progress in comprehension and exploitation of Biology is the avoidance to accept-regard genes-genomes as organisms. And equally hindering is the lack of a term for genes-genome that explicitly and clearly defines them as organisms.

This avoidance, which is fraught with implications about the nature of life, is also the biggest hindrance of human existential and social progress.


Suggesting,

Dov Henis
HenisDov
Smoking and Genes

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...c-sto082407.php
Public release date: 29-Aug-2007

Smoking Affects Genes, Permanently. This is, of course, why it affects exposed non-smokers. As our constituent prime organisms - genes/genome - are affected by smoke the effects are manifest in the second-stratum organism, we...

Quote:

" Smoking tobacco is no longer considered sexy, but it may prove a permanent turn on for some genes. Research published today in the online open access journal BMC Genomics could help explain why former smokers are still more susceptible to lung cancer than those who have never smoked.

A Canadian team led by Wan L Lam and Stephen Lam from the BC Cancer Agency, took samples from the lungs of 24 current and former smokers, as well as from non-smokers who have never smoked. They used these lung samples to create libraries using a technique called serial analysis of gene expression (SAGE), which helps to identify patterns of gene activity.

Only about a fifth of the genes in a cell are switched on at any given time, but environmental changes such as smoking lead to changes in gene activity. The researchers found changes that were irreversible, and some changes that were reversed by stopping smoking. The reversible genes were particularly involved in xenobiotic functions (managing chemicals not produced in the body), nucleotide metabolism and mucus secretion. Some DNA repair genes are irreversibly damaged by smoking, and smoking also switched off genes that help combat lung cancer development.

The researchers identified a number of genes not previously associated with smoking that are switched on in active smokers. One example is CABYR, a gene involved in helping sperm to swim and associated with brain tumours, which may have a ciliary function. The team also further investigated changes in genes involved in airway repair and regeneration, and within this group identified genes that fell into three categories following cessation of smoking: reversible (TFF3, encoding a structural component of mucus; CABYR, in it's newly discovered bronchial role), partially reversible (MUC5AC, a mucin gene) and irreversible (GSK3B, involved in COX2 regulation). These findings were tested against a second cohort of current, former and non-smokers.

"Those genes and functions which do not revert to normal levels upon smoking cessation may provide insight into why former smokers still maintain a risk of developing lung cancer," according to Raj Chari, first author of the study. The study is the largest human SAGE study reported to date, and also generated a large SAGE library for future research.

Tobacco smoking accounts for 85 percent of lung cancers, and former smokers account for half of those newly diagnosed with the disease."

end Quote


Article:
Effect of active smoking on the human bronchial epithelium transcriptome
Raj Chari, Kim M Lonergan, Raymond T Ng, Calum MacAulay, Wan L Lam and Stephen Lam
BMC Genomics (in press)

During embargo, article available at:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/175794...f?random=471868

After the embargo, article available from the journal website at: http://www.biomedcentral.com/bmcgenomics/

Forwarded by Dov
Derek1148
QUOTE
Smoking tobacco is no longer considered sexy, but it may prove a permanent turn on for some genes. Research published today in the online open access journal BMC Genomics could help explain why former smokers are still more susceptible to lung cancer than those who have never smoked.

In the 70’s there was speculation that Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD) and Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) would permanently effect DNA.
HenisDov
QUOTE (Derek1148+Aug 31 2007, 04:45 PM)
In the 70’s there was speculation that Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD) and Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) would permanently effect DNA.

I smoked from age 15 to 60, and one day - 22yrs ago - simply clean-cut-ceased.

Per my simple-minded ratio smoking is drug addiction.

I am not informed specifically re LSD and THC, but googling "deleterious effects of cigarette smoking" displayed 525,000 links, and the first one furnished a long enough list:

http://medicolegal.tripod.com/effects.htm

Dov
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