You drive into the neighborhood and see a beautiful park with the usual kiddie equipment, swings, slides, monkey bars, sand box, and so on and a heated neighborhood pool. It's beautiful! These are located much like the honey comb pattern of cell sites all over town. You drove around back and there is a secure entrance that goes underground to a Nuclear Power plant. This plant and the others generate power for 200-250 households each. There is a central office that monitors the entire system.
This is a 1/3 Megawatt Passive Plant with a small truck trailer sized reactor and containment module. The total uranium is about 50 lbs. The reactor is about two or three cubic feet. The underground facility has the secondary system pumps, condenser, turbine generator and so on. The modular design of the entire system provides for maintenance replacement.
The question is..... Could this be real? Let's see now...where could this begin.....
Let me know what you think!
Thanks!
Larry
QUOTE (zippy240z+Jun 16 2008, 07:25 PM)
... there is a secure entrance that goes underground to a Nuclear Power plant.
Secure? You're talking about millions of nuclear power plants. There's no such thing as security in a situation like this.
Secure? You're talking about millions of nuclear power plants. There's no such thing as security in a situation like this.
QUOTE (barakn+Jun 17 2008, 03:59 AM)
There's no such thing as security in a situation like this.
I agree. Locks can be opened, people can be bought. The secure entrance will work for honest people and that's about it. So, this becomes a design issue. I would think that the modules would be big enough to require heavy equipment rigging to move them. Maybe each is enclosed in such a way to require special equipment for access. There would be a response by law enforcement to a breech of the high tech security system. Mostly, the design should be such that it is fail safe and cannot be controlled on site. The location where these systems are built
may be the desired target instead.
What do you think?
I agree. Locks can be opened, people can be bought. The secure entrance will work for honest people and that's about it. So, this becomes a design issue. I would think that the modules would be big enough to require heavy equipment rigging to move them. Maybe each is enclosed in such a way to require special equipment for access. There would be a response by law enforcement to a breech of the high tech security system. Mostly, the design should be such that it is fail safe and cannot be controlled on site. The location where these systems are built
may be the desired target instead.
What do you think?
Many small nuclear plants are even worse than a few big ones.
Oh, and just by the way, among so many absurdities: a small reactor needs more concentrated uranium - just like in a submarine for instance. Much better to build your own bomb.
You should look at how much toxicity is in a reactor.
And ask yourself if humans are all nice. A good bunker breaker (falling from space) get through 100m soil more or less.
Don't forget floods etc.
"The design should be such": a patent attorney would be bound to make the right answer, which is "what is the design?" - technology is all about provable answers, not about lists of wishes. The reason being that not every wish has a solution.
And anyway, electricity can be transported relatively well to a few 100km. No need for decentralized power stations.
In short: meaningless.
Oh, and just by the way, among so many absurdities: a small reactor needs more concentrated uranium - just like in a submarine for instance. Much better to build your own bomb.
You should look at how much toxicity is in a reactor.
And ask yourself if humans are all nice. A good bunker breaker (falling from space) get through 100m soil more or less.
Don't forget floods etc.
"The design should be such": a patent attorney would be bound to make the right answer, which is "what is the design?" - technology is all about provable answers, not about lists of wishes. The reason being that not every wish has a solution.
And anyway, electricity can be transported relatively well to a few 100km. No need for decentralized power stations.
In short: meaningless.
Well, there is the option for a sealed nuclear battery. Generate power directly from the radioactivity (curse this non-linkage), you could seal that in a fixed container and use one per neighborhood. You could even cast it in solid concrete, as you won't have to refuel for a hundred-somthing years.
Then again, the idea of distributed (and potentially lost) high-grade fissile material is pretty worrying.
the best way to rethink nuclear power is to start using it again, large scale. Earth can handle a few barrels of uranium a lot better then she can handle more CO2.
Then again, the idea of distributed (and potentially lost) high-grade fissile material is pretty worrying.
the best way to rethink nuclear power is to start using it again, large scale. Earth can handle a few barrels of uranium a lot better then she can handle more CO2.
I'm with Enthalpy. There isn't much to add other than the idea is about as impractical as they get. 
I'm just looking for a few good minds. I'm of the opinion that this is possible.
"A good bunker breaker (falling from space) get through 100m soil more or less."
We could ask Ben Laden about that one...LOL
"a small reactor needs more concentrated uranium"
Is this correct? I was working on an idea that blends the fuel with another substance so as to limit it's use for other nasty things. But, my ideas are less valid maybe than yours, even in my own mind.....
"technology is all about provable answers, not about lists of wishes"
I can't list the things that I have seen in my life time that were one time "wishes".
"Earth can handle a few barrels of uranium a lot better then she can handle more CO2."
Check out the latest in the reuse of spent fuel! Very promising! The CO2 reference is more a religious thing than reality. A topic for somewhere else.
Great Feed back! I'm encouraged...
Thanks All!
Keep it up
Larry
This has gone to the heart of the reason I'm here....
"And anyway, electricity can be transported relatively well to a few 100km. No need for decentralized power stations."
"This is the way we have always done it so it can't be done any other way." I like this response best of all. It is proof that we need to roll up our sleeves and rethink it.
The loss over distance is one of the reasons to come up with a small system in every neighborhood. Some reject it because it would require a LOT of plants. Just look at the evolution so far and notice that a few marginally safe plants are replaced by safer and safer designs. This isn't wishing, this is a historic reality.
Twenty years from now what we be looking at..... That's the point!
Great Job!
Larry
"And anyway, electricity can be transported relatively well to a few 100km. No need for decentralized power stations."
"This is the way we have always done it so it can't be done any other way." I like this response best of all. It is proof that we need to roll up our sleeves and rethink it.
The loss over distance is one of the reasons to come up with a small system in every neighborhood. Some reject it because it would require a LOT of plants. Just look at the evolution so far and notice that a few marginally safe plants are replaced by safer and safer designs. This isn't wishing, this is a historic reality.
Twenty years from now what we be looking at..... That's the point!
Great Job!
Larry
Put figures on it, they tell hard facts.
About losses in power lines.
About the amount of available uranium.
About the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, the amount we go on injecting, the temperature of the atmosphere, the surface of the Arctic iceshelf.
Few people had original meanings and were more clever. Often, arguing against any evidence is a bad sign.
About losses in power lines.
About the amount of available uranium.
About the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, the amount we go on injecting, the temperature of the atmosphere, the surface of the Arctic iceshelf.
Few people had original meanings and were more clever. Often, arguing against any evidence is a bad sign.
3 Mile Island
Chernobyl
Chalk River
Vinča, Yugoslavia
Santa Susana Field Laboratory, California
Enrico Fermi demonstration nuclear breeder reactor
Lucens, Canton of Vaud, Switzerland
and the list goes on
Civilian Nuclear Accidents
Find a way to neutralize nuclear waste and a way to neutralize an accident site, and you might have a good idea. otherwise, nuclear power, as good as it may sound, has the potential for being a complete disaster. Ask the people who used to live around Chernobyl... still hot.
MM
Chernobyl
Chalk River
Vinča, Yugoslavia
Santa Susana Field Laboratory, California
Enrico Fermi demonstration nuclear breeder reactor
Lucens, Canton of Vaud, Switzerland
and the list goes on
Civilian Nuclear Accidents
Find a way to neutralize nuclear waste and a way to neutralize an accident site, and you might have a good idea. otherwise, nuclear power, as good as it may sound, has the potential for being a complete disaster. Ask the people who used to live around Chernobyl... still hot.
MM
Well gentlemen It's been fun. As I said, I'm looking for a few good minds and they aren't here. There were real people in the 1940's and 50's when these ideas were proposed and researched. Yes, mistakes were made. We have far more resources now and loud ignorant opposition. "If I can't think of it it can't be done", they shout. Those who think they are the smartest in the room generally are not!
Thanks!
Larry
P.S. China is currently working on this very concept.
Bye...
Thanks!
Larry
P.S. China is currently working on this very concept.
Bye...
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