OldWoman1904
Trying to grasp the concept of bits. Could someone explain to me? In regular English with no "sentence enhancers" please.

Is all information stored as bits?

I don't quite get bits. I know it's a binary unit.

Like 1 can't exist if there is no 0?

And vice versa.

Is that the concept?

Can the bit be flipped?

Do both sides/halves of the bit exist at the same time?

Or take turns?

When I see 1, where is 0?

StevenA
Well if we're working with logic, which appears to include most everything describable in mathematics or science, then ultimately you can break anything down (even uncertainties) into yes or no descriptions and this could be seen as binary information (usually 1 is equated with yes or true and 0 with no or false).

You can write numbers in binary, just like in decimal as well. In decimal, the digits grow by powers of 10, so:

2,571 = 2*1000 + 5 * 100 + 7 * 10 + 1 * 1

Or you could write this also as:

2,571 = 2*10*10*10 + 5 * 10*10 + 7 * 10 + 1 * 1

WIth binary numbers the powers are of 2, so we could determine what the value of 11010 is by computing:

1*2*2*2*2 + 1*2*2*2 + 0*2*2 + 1*2 + 0 = 16+8+4 = 28

There are some way of figuratively knowing less than a single binary digit of information, by only knowing a probability (an uncertainty with a bias), so you might know that something is "true" 75% of the time, for example, but this is in many ways more than a single bit of information because the amount of uncertainty could have a binary description as well. (You could, for example, do a 20 questions version of "Are you confident in this value? Yes or No? "Would that be very (non)confident or somewhat (non)confident ?" - Yes or No? etc... Kind of like a lawyer asking you questions :lol)

There might be some things that couldn't be described as bits of information, an example I've given in the past is that you can't communicate the conscious sensation of smelling something to a rock, no matter how many "bits" of information or yes or no answers you gave, though it should be theoretically possible for a specific smell to be described or stored as bits of information and recalled, assuming there exists some pathway for this communication to occur.

Anyway, a good analogy is that anything that could be described or written could be translated into a binary language doing the same thing, once the symbols that the language represents have been conveyed or agreed upon ahead of time, so something still needs to exist to decode binary information, but in terms of storage, memory or communication, it should be possible to do it all in binary.

For example, words could be written in binary as well. We could create the table:

00=Jane
01=runs
10=fast
11=slow

And write the "sentence" 00 01 10, for "Jane runs fast" or 00 01 11 for "Jane runs slow". Though binary information relies on other structures to interprete it, it's the least restrictive and most general form of communication for information.

You can also see binary relationships in most concepts in that they have contrasts or antonyms - day exists as a compliment to night and visa versa or up/down, add/subtract, male/female etc. A concept has to relate to something else or it has no meaning with regard to anything else - "yutgrix" is a meaningless word because it has no relationship to anything else except maybe an "anti-yutgrix" or "non-yutgrix", so you have to define what it means and that creates a pairing that could be seen as a binary relationship. A trinary relationship is one where three things are involved, though you could still break these into three binary pairings of relationships, so the lower common denominator for describing about anything is binary (though binary descriptions can be very long because each bit says very little).
OldWoman1904
I knew that.

Just kidding. Thanks.

I get it?

So now, tell me, what exactly is information? Is it a code of some sort? A code that never changes? Does it mutate or just form anew?

tell me
Turya
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+Mar 19 2007, 01:51 AM)
So now, tell me, what exactly is information?

Money in a closed system. In fact an illusion of quantification. Similar to time, which is irrelevant for such an "old" person

OldWoman1904
what the heck does illusion of quantification mean?

Listen, if you don't know what information is, just admit it.

I'm trying to understand the concept of information here ok?

What is information? It's a code? An organized sequence? Stored as bits? Or only complete when the bits are connected in some way?

what is the source or creator of information? Is it constant?

Does information change its code and mutate? Or is another sequence created?

What is information?

And what would be the opposite of information?

Turya
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+Mar 19 2007, 03:53 PM)
what the heck does illusion of quantification mean?

What are the basic properties of any "realistic" system in Nature? Take your list freely.

Trying to represent any of such properties via "numbers" IS information and mentioned quantification. The most simple number system (numerical representation) would be the binary system by definition.

Obviously, an opposite of information is also information.

Creator and reader of information both must be "inteligent". And at this point the question of illusion comes into play, don't you think?

Regards
Janus
Hi OldWoman1904,

What is information?

Little example:

You might collect this piece of data 36,24,36 … and send it to me.

I say what is it?

You say that they are your measurements … that’s information!

I say that’s funny they are the last 6 digits of my mobile number… that’s different information on the same piece of data.

So information is the twist that YOU put on data … collected data is not information.

Cheers

Janus “knows nothing”
Nick
IT TAKES SOME KIND OF INTELLIGENCE TO ENCODE EVERYTHING.

MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FELL --
tikay
I just learned of scholarpedia in this forum and came up with this for you:

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Encycl...al_Intelligence
N O M
QUOTE (Nick+Mar 20 2007, 02:50 PM)
IT TAKES SOME KIND OF INTELLIGENCE TO ENCODE EVERYTHING.

You seem to manage without it Nick.

Binary systems apply to many things, Caps Lock keys for example
N O M
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+Mar 18 2007, 03:32 PM)
Is all information stored as bits?

Maybe
OldWoman1904
So information is.................whatever we make of it?

The measurements and moblile number analogy...........I'm trying hard to get it

so information is a measurement of some kind, we measure and store what we download.

By the way, my measurments are more like 89-92-78---

Just kidding.

I didn't realize that you braniacs didn't know what information is. I'm getting the feeling that scientists have a pretty difficult role to play. Like Helen Keller working at the Library. You guys gotta be pretty ambitious and patient. And obsessive about the truth.

Yoda says: Impressive people you are.

So, information. I'm not going to get a grasp of the concept. It's a program? We download it and process it and then store it? Our files may differ because of our system.....or like you say, our twist on it. Okay. I am feeling you bro.

now, why is information stored as a binary unit? why two sides to the coin?
Or is it infinite sides?

Turya
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+Mar 20 2007, 01:15 PM)
So information is.................whatever we make of it?

The measurements and moblile number analogy...........I'm trying hard to get it

so information is a measurement of some kind, we measure and store what we download.

By the way, my measurments are more like 89-92-78---

Just kidding.

I didn't realize that you braniacs didn't know what information is. I'm getting the feeling that scientists have a pretty difficult role to play. Like Helen Keller working at the Library. You guys gotta be pretty ambitious and patient. And obsessive about the truth.

Yoda says: Impressive people you are.

So, information. I'm not going to get a grasp of the concept. It's a program? We download it and process it and then store it? Our files may differ because of our system.....or like you say, our twist on it. Okay. I am feeling you bro.

now, why is information stored as a binary unit? why two sides to the coin?
Or is it infinite sides?

As I said, only reason is simplicity and nothing more.

As for "truth", budistic tethralemme is

1. Yes

2. No

3. Yes and No

4. Neither Yes nor No

for every possible "human" stance. Digg the information from it And show the One WHO digg it really?
Turya
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+Mar 20 2007, 01:15 PM)
So information is.................whatever we make of it?

now, why is information stored as a binary unit? why two sides to the coin?
Or is it infinite sides?

As I said, only reason is simplicity and nothing more.

As for "truth", e.g. the budistic tethralemme is

1. Yes

2. No

3. Yes and No

4. Neither Yes nor No

for every possible "human" stance. Dig the information from it and show the One WHO dig it really, you OldWomen
OldWoman1904

Ok

But i dont get it

Information: was is always there? Or is the universe spinning out information because of interactions?

We know nothing. I can't stand it.

Why do things spin? What is up with the spin? Is everything in the known universe spinning at the same speed, same degree? I know it's not the same speed right? But is every particle on some type of pole, some type of axis?

What if....for fun sake...what if I was the almighty poweful giant and I could control the spin.....with my finger.....rotating it.......

And what if I chose to change the rotation, the angle of the spin.....what would happen.....on an atomic level and up......?

What if I chose to reverse all spin....Opposite day....what would happen?

Anyone know?

Guest_StevenA
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+)

Ok

But i dont get it

Information is really almost anything. It can be a program. It can be the data for a program. It can be the color of something or the knowledge of whether or not some event happened (truly it could even be a bias in your believe that it may happen in the future).

Anything you could write some symbol for or think a thought about contains information. It's a lot like energy for computing something.

All your 5 senses (and whatever others might exist) provide you with information, though you might not always be able to convey all that information.

I don't want to complicate things too much, but for a bit more to think about, there can be different measures of information, just like there are different forms of energy.

If some piece of information is duplicated many times, then it becomes redundant and if you know how the duplication occurs, you only need to know 1 of those piece of information, and how it's duplicated, and then from there you can theoretically reconstruct the entire system. (Just like if you had a deck of cards and saw what 51 out of 52 of the cards were, if we assume the deck isn't rigged , then the last card should be the missing one and noone really needed, in theory, to tell you what it was, but of course that all depends on how well you can predict something, so how much information something contains isn't a measure that's the same between "observers".)

QUOTE (OldWoman1904+)
Information: was is always there? Or is the universe spinning out information because of interactions?

We know nothing. I can't stand it.

Well, most the information seems to stick around. From everything I know (which isn't nearly as much as I'd like, but ...) it doesn't appear likely that information is ever destroyed, whereas it's pretty obvious information was either created or always present. Personally, I've come to assume likely everything exists (yes, as in any possible thing you could imagine and irrational stuff beyond that) but that the equivalent of the laws of nature are likely always present within any system that could appear to be rational or predictable (such as our space with inertia and relatively uniform space etc.).

The reason why is that in order to have knowledge of something and make use of this knowledge, there has to be some consistant property it has that you can learn to predict and make use of.

If, for example, space was purely chaotic, there would be no use in trying to understand any of it, because there would be nothing you could predict (though you might try, and this in a way can create the appearance of something predictable, because of your own expectations ... but that's definitely not a subject covered in a single thread ).

Anyway, just taking a few simple ideas like A must be A and remain A and B must not appear identical to A etc. appear to be enough (in my opinion) to get the fundamental processes of the universe off to a start, but it gets more complex from there as you add higher dimensional relationship (yes, it's quite an interesting challenge trying to piece the puzzle together).

I guess that's probably more information than you were looking for, but it's something to mull over.

QUOTE (OldWoman1904+)
Why do things spin? What is up with the spin? Is everything in the known universe spinning at the same speed, same degree? I know it's not the same speed right? But is every particle on some type of pole, some type of axis?

That's a very good question. It may be that all motions, including ones that appear to be straight, can actually be described as a rotation, angle or spin. I can't tell you specifically why this is, and if it must always be the case, but I can give a lot of reasons why spins, orbitals or cyclic properties appear to predominate:

1) If we can only see the components of a greater "everything" that have predictable or repeatitive features, then that rather necessarily limits us to only being able to observe coherently, things that repeat. (Imagine if the moon passed by 1 day a thousand years ago, few people today would know anything about the moon). If matter didn't have internally attractive forces that appeared to spin, the internal motion would spread out and diffuse into space and matter wouldn't be something we could grab a hold of.

I know that sounds a bit "corny" but if you consider that there's a lot more "out there" than immediately meets the eye, it makes sense that only those repeatitive and predictable components of it would be well understood, documented and verifiable ... in other words, science and more generally the mind, need features that repeat or have cycles and patterns, or stable structures etc. Otherwise the "information" is too chaotic and unrelated and unuseable.

2) For a more standard answer. Forces can be opposing and pushing away or attractive and pulling objects toward each other. Inertia keeps objects moving and any that possess an attractive force between them tend to orbit. (You could also consider inertia similar to conserved "information" regarding how an object is moving) and objects that oppose each other, tend to not remain together for long.

3) (Another semi-non-standard "Steve" answer) Gravity appears related to the expansion of the universe. If mass expands as well, then this keeps object expanding up against each other and makes the rulers we use to measure space get larger (which means the distances appear shorter over time - gravity). So this effect tends to keep things confined and interacting.

QUOTE (OldWoman1904+)
What if....for fun sake...what if I was the almighty poweful giant and I could control the spin.....with my finger.....rotating it.......

It's rotating your finger and the Earth as well. Yes, you can rotate something, but you need a way to push against it and this force goes both ways. So imagine if you had to spin a large metal top, it would take work to do this, and all the time you'd be trying to spin it faster, its own mass/inertia would be opposing this and putting an opposing rotational force into you (which you transfer into the Earth with your feet etc.).

So it's a mutual thing and the overall energy (or information) of angular rotation remains, but it can be moved around.

QUOTE (OldWoman1904+)
And what if I chose to change the rotation, the angle of the spin.....what would happen.....on an atomic level and up......?

That's another good question. Maybe someone else feels up to the challenge. I can barely deal with figuring out a single atom
OldWoman1904

One thing I got from you is that spin is an effect mutal interaction? An interaction? A relationship ? An interaction between two.............

Two what?

Different things? Opposite forces? Do they have to be exactly opposite to spin in repetition like you say? Or is there some equation that has to be exact? Like for instance 1% difference.

Sounds like helium and hydrogen. How does all this come from two?

Does the interaction itself form an entity of some sort? So that would make #3?

So the universe is binary? Is binary the proper term? What I mean is, two parts.
Or symmetrical? So that is the reason for organization?

Someone else on this forum pointed- out order out of chaos -and mentioned the Chaos theory (mathematics).

So there is a program? When the two forces interact, a program is played out.

Is half of the complete program found in each half of the interacting force? Or does each opposite force contain it's own complete program? If so, what would happen to the extra data? Or would there be extra data?

Do you think the program is already written? Or do you think the interaction writes the program?

And while I'm at it...one more entry-level question....

Please explain to me how the Milky Way is not a hurricane of sorts?

I know people say we have a black hole in the center of the galaxy but.....why does a hurricane looks just like a spiral galaxy? And how can there be different shaped galaxies? I've only seen flattened galaxies? Are galaxies on a membrane of some sort? Is it the membrane that determines the shape?

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