http://www.physorg.com/news5502.html
I"m wondering if there may be a better way to solve this problem, like making the price of plastic bags reflect the true cost, including cleanup, storm drain repair, and disposal costs. In other words, let the market regulate instead of the legislature.
I didnt know the "market" ever cared about ecology...
I'm certain the market doesn't care about ecology. But people do value some things more than others and behaviors follow the values. All I'm saying is I trust a properly priced market to change behavior better than some government officials who claim to care about ecology only as long as it gets them re-elected. And what happens when the price of paper changes -- new legislation? It seems like the least efficient way to achieve the most optimal result.
What do you expect? It's California, they feel the need to regulate everything.
I agree -
Government only rarely regulates w/ an effficient return. I can give many many examples - nuclear waste, airline industry, telephone industry, medicare/aid, the FCC, the entire defined benefits crash, etc. etc. ad nauseam - where government regulatory efforts fail miserably.
How about this - come up w/ a plastic bag made of an organic polymer that degrades because of time (or heat or, zB, prolonged exposure to UV light) into natural products, such as innocuous gases - methylenes (produced by apples and tomatoes naturally), carbonates (produced by geologic processes), regular cellulose after innocuous gaseous release, or what have you
Then, come up w/ a device (like those baby hampers that hold in the smell) that processes the bags, sell them for 29.95 or w/ a 500 bag count for 69.96 and get it for free.
Instant zillionaire - just give me patent royalties
Government only rarely regulates w/ an effficient return. I can give many many examples - nuclear waste, airline industry, telephone industry, medicare/aid, the FCC, the entire defined benefits crash, etc. etc. ad nauseam - where government regulatory efforts fail miserably.
How about this - come up w/ a plastic bag made of an organic polymer that degrades because of time (or heat or, zB, prolonged exposure to UV light) into natural products, such as innocuous gases - methylenes (produced by apples and tomatoes naturally), carbonates (produced by geologic processes), regular cellulose after innocuous gaseous release, or what have you
Then, come up w/ a device (like those baby hampers that hold in the smell) that processes the bags, sell them for 29.95 or w/ a 500 bag count for 69.96 and get it for free.
Instant zillionaire - just give me patent royalties
greeni brings up a certain point I will agree with, in that the gov't is not efficient at regulation, and further legislation will not lead to results, it will lead to a new tax.
but .. making the cost of the bag include cleanup, etc, I can't agree on that.
The fact that a plastic bag can be made efficiently, and cheaply should not be attacked, nor should the trade of them.
any attack on that, is like ireland engaged in.. something less than a free market.
I think making them degradable, etc are good ideas in general, and doubt that it would cost much over the long haul. I thought some of them already are.
how do those products wind up in a storm drain anyway?
Can I presume then that someone is not enforcing littering legislation we have already spent our legislators valuable time authoring?
If ppl, even the enviro consious californians (tounge in cheek, I live there) can't keep their bags from blowing into a storm drain, why should I pay an increased price for a bag?
What does that solve?
BTW, I somehow manage to keep the plastic bags I get out of other ppls storm drains.
Don't you?
but .. making the cost of the bag include cleanup, etc, I can't agree on that.
The fact that a plastic bag can be made efficiently, and cheaply should not be attacked, nor should the trade of them.
any attack on that, is like ireland engaged in.. something less than a free market.
I think making them degradable, etc are good ideas in general, and doubt that it would cost much over the long haul. I thought some of them already are.
how do those products wind up in a storm drain anyway?
Can I presume then that someone is not enforcing littering legislation we have already spent our legislators valuable time authoring?
If ppl, even the enviro consious californians (tounge in cheek, I live there) can't keep their bags from blowing into a storm drain, why should I pay an increased price for a bag?
What does that solve?
BTW, I somehow manage to keep the plastic bags I get out of other ppls storm drains.
Don't you?
Here in Ireland the Government introduced a 25c. tax on all plastic bgs and undertook a publicity campaigh Your groeceries only last a week, your plastic bag lasts forever' nd the combined result was a dramatic (&)%) reduction in use of plastic bags. Mos people now reuse them-once you ahve one, keep using it until it splits. It's such a simple idea, and it wworks. So help save a planet, tax plastic bags, encourage re-use. And by the way, a free market has profit as its only goal,,,,I'm talking abot a smalltax with a real profit motive, the future of my kids and grandkids.
The purpose of taxing plastic bags is to discourage plastic bag use.
Whether and how to let the market decide the cost of environmental damage is a good question for the market to answer. But the "market" doesn't even hear the question. Corporations externalize their costs, so government fines and fees are one way to force corporations to account for the cost of environmental damage that they cause.
In this case, consumers also externalize the costs of their actions, and so taxing their use of plastic bags IS a way to force consumers to account for the costs of the environmental damage that they cause. Consumers can pay the increased price of the bags to the corporations, who might one day be trading in "environmental damage credits", but until that day, consumers can pay the feds a fee.
I'm a consumer. Regulation and increased prices works for me. When corporations finally do treat environmental damage as a financial cost, maybe corporations will start producing goods specifically designed to protect the environment, and take the cost burden off us poor consumers.
Whether and how to let the market decide the cost of environmental damage is a good question for the market to answer. But the "market" doesn't even hear the question. Corporations externalize their costs, so government fines and fees are one way to force corporations to account for the cost of environmental damage that they cause.
In this case, consumers also externalize the costs of their actions, and so taxing their use of plastic bags IS a way to force consumers to account for the costs of the environmental damage that they cause. Consumers can pay the increased price of the bags to the corporations, who might one day be trading in "environmental damage credits", but until that day, consumers can pay the feds a fee.
I'm a consumer. Regulation and increased prices works for me. When corporations finally do treat environmental damage as a financial cost, maybe corporations will start producing goods specifically designed to protect the environment, and take the cost burden off us poor consumers.
So; a 'bag tax' it is, then? Hey; that's the Canadian spirit! And we'll happily log ourselves completely bald in order to sell paper bags to you, too! Only, we'll probably end up getting the short end of the stick, as usual -- selling the raw logs under exclusive contract, instead of the finished bag product to the market. That's also the Canadian spirit, apparently.
Those who religiously oppose regulation are living in a dreamworld. The "market" can no more control plastic bags into drains than it can deliver equal education for all, build roads, or operate a proper medical system.
How the heck is the market supposed to affect a purchaser's decision to chuck a bag onto the road? You gonna offer rebates at the garbage bins? I;m getting REALLY sick of these "free market" self-proclaimed thinkers giving our previously publicly owned electrical systems, natural gas delivery, etc. etc. away for peanuts to companies who then raise our rates x2 or x3 (Ontario experience) and refuse to acknowledge any goal than "maximum useage, cheapest fuel".
You "free marketers" should ALL go live in Texas. Don't bother sending postcards, your mail system won't work anyway.
How the heck is the market supposed to affect a purchaser's decision to chuck a bag onto the road? You gonna offer rebates at the garbage bins? I;m getting REALLY sick of these "free market" self-proclaimed thinkers giving our previously publicly owned electrical systems, natural gas delivery, etc. etc. away for peanuts to companies who then raise our rates x2 or x3 (Ontario experience) and refuse to acknowledge any goal than "maximum useage, cheapest fuel".
You "free marketers" should ALL go live in Texas. Don't bother sending postcards, your mail system won't work anyway.
all they have to do is make the bags biodegradable. they need to put that molecule thats in six pack holders to make the plastic degrade when exposed to sunlight.
Well, here's a compromise proposal. Like the 10 cent deposit on plastic and aluminum containers in some states, throw in a 10 cent per bag deposit on the plastic bags. You don't return them? You don't get your dime back (and the money gets spent elsewhere, naturally). You return it? Here's your dime. Net result: money produced by the program and fewer bags in drains. Even a financial incentive to go cleaning up litter! Whoa.
Yeah -- that really worked for popbottles, didn't it?
The Gods _must_ be crazy...
The Gods _must_ be crazy...
QUOTE (greeni+Jul 31 2005, 12:28 AM)
Well, here's a compromise proposal. Like the 10 cent deposit on plastic and aluminum containers in some states, throw in a 10 cent per bag deposit on the plastic bags. You don't return them? You don't get your dime back (and the money gets spent elsewhere, naturally). You return it? Here's your dime. Net result: money produced by the program and fewer bags in drains. Even a financial incentive to go cleaning up litter! Whoa.
You'll waste more than collected on administration. Solution is to either: i) regulate to absloutely require useage of biodegradeable bags only. (eg. the new propylene substitute being manufactured from enzymes, was on Discovery a couple of weeks ago) or ii) put a sufficient tax upfront on the sale of bags to pay for hiring willing workers to collect and dispose properly, and finance "public education" campaigns to make it socially unacceptable to chuck em.
Aside on "market forces". Where I live, the city has chosen to mandate that garbage collectors will only collect max. three bags / week at each residence, plus separate collection for recycling paper, metal, plastics, compostables. If a homeowner wishes to put out more than three bags garbage per week, they must buy specially printed bag ties (eg. $5 ea) at a central location and put them on the extra bags. Seemed like a good system, worked well for a couple of years now. But, tonite as I was putting out garbage, I noticed that the bags sold in the stores have become HUGE. Big tough, could hold fifty kg. easy, more than used to fit into two bags easily. That's the market response to an initially good idea. It doesn't care a whit about "good or bad", it just responds.
Now the city will need to figure out some way to "beat the market", probably weighing the bags? That'll create a huge market for home garbage scales, of course the market will love it. Big jump in GDP.
You'll waste more than collected on administration. Solution is to either: i) regulate to absloutely require useage of biodegradeable bags only. (eg. the new propylene substitute being manufactured from enzymes, was on Discovery a couple of weeks ago) or ii) put a sufficient tax upfront on the sale of bags to pay for hiring willing workers to collect and dispose properly, and finance "public education" campaigns to make it socially unacceptable to chuck em.
Aside on "market forces". Where I live, the city has chosen to mandate that garbage collectors will only collect max. three bags / week at each residence, plus separate collection for recycling paper, metal, plastics, compostables. If a homeowner wishes to put out more than three bags garbage per week, they must buy specially printed bag ties (eg. $5 ea) at a central location and put them on the extra bags. Seemed like a good system, worked well for a couple of years now. But, tonite as I was putting out garbage, I noticed that the bags sold in the stores have become HUGE. Big tough, could hold fifty kg. easy, more than used to fit into two bags easily. That's the market response to an initially good idea. It doesn't care a whit about "good or bad", it just responds.
Now the city will need to figure out some way to "beat the market", probably weighing the bags? That'll create a huge market for home garbage scales, of course the market will love it. Big jump in GDP.
Hi , my name is John Burgess and I work for Interational Profit Associates. After a long chat with my coleagues on that subject we all agree that government regulations are not the way of solving things.
As it's been said, there are more natural ways to compensate a deficit of a surplus, just let "nature" follow it's course.
Government regulation have NEVER been adequate solutions, maybe just in some chrysis situations.
Our team wishes you the best!
John R Burgess
Tyler P Burgess
Gregg M Steinburg
Kenneth Sweet
Katrin E Owen
As it's been said, there are more natural ways to compensate a deficit of a surplus, just let "nature" follow it's course.
Government regulation have NEVER been adequate solutions, maybe just in some chrysis situations.
Our team wishes you the best!
John R Burgess
Tyler P Burgess
Gregg M Steinburg
Kenneth Sweet
Katrin E Owen
Hi, I'm Tej Kohli and I think that the conceptions about ecology will change too slow , this leading to an ecosystem deficiency. We are not above the nature laws, if we'll be messy then we'll live in a mess. And of course we'll live less and less longer because of that. And finally we'll distroy ourselves as a race(not before destroying a few thousands other races - we're on top of the trophic chain).
Today the actual price for a product includes indeed the price of the plastic bag but not the price paid for it's disposal, this is indeed hard to approximate.
And who will pay for a one dollar plastic bag? of course nobody, we expect it to be free.
Just think about it!
Regards,
Tej Kohli
Today the actual price for a product includes indeed the price of the plastic bag but not the price paid for it's disposal, this is indeed hard to approximate.
And who will pay for a one dollar plastic bag? of course nobody, we expect it to be free.
Just think about it!
Regards,
Tej Kohli
Has anyone heard about people in Kenya, Africa making posts out of plastic bags? If so, where do you find the machine that will make these posts?
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