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Nick
The universe is like a light bulb once lit it stays lit.
krreagan
QUOTE (Nick+Aug 19 2006, 03:45 PM)
The universe is like a light bulb once lit it stays lit.

Unless it burns out biggrin.gif

Krreagan
Nick
Heat death?

The light is shinning in the darkness and it has never been put out - The Bible
StevenA
I tend to think it's actually the various 'I's that effectively place restrictions on what the universe can be.

Imagine a multiverse with an infinite number of possible universes, some controlled, some chaotic, some self destructing in less than a second, some as absolute voids etc.

Whether or not these are controlled or simply randomly created from infinite possibilities, there seem limits on what can be consciously observed within one. If you have a universe that's entirely controlled by some external force, then this seems to preclude free will (you decide whether or not it's an illusion) and if the laws of nature are such that a violent heat death occur every few seconds, then it seems unlikely anything as complex as a brain or communication within a society will result from this. In the absolute voids, there's nothing to see anyway so I doubt anyone would 'stick around' to watch nothing etc.

So, it's not necessarily a god controlling everything, or it may very well be the case, but the limits and circumstances we experience are a selected subset that are simply a product of the biases we have to our observations and not necessarily anything a multiverse is limited to.

If you wanted, you could have both a god creating everything, including uncontrolled systems of chaotic evolution and it would be only the 'creations' capatible with yourself that you could witness. So for example, you necessarily dictate that a universe you experience has you in it. If a god created a universe that excluded you, then in many ways you, simply by being yourself, would be the thing determining that if you're anywhere, you're somewhere else instead.

I tend to think that for you to physically exist, you necessarily have to be reflected in some physical manner and detectable as such. Without an ability to affect anything physically, how could anyone detect 'you'? And if they can detect you in some physical fashion, then you must have some physical control and thus your control isn't replaced by something else and that god would not be omnipotently controlling everything. So in many ways, you determine the circumstances of your own universe, and whether or not other universes exist that are determined by other factors may very well be forever beyond your ability to witness (then again, maybe not ... it's a bit tough trying to nail down concrete reality from existential ideas though it's an addicting level of fun trying biggrin.gif).
Nick
Why should I imagine a multiverse? What if this is the only universe? The multiverse concept is for those scientists who need to explain existence without God. No creation is necessary if you put the universe into something bigger.

If this is the only universe it could have only come from God. There is no other source.

The multiverse is an excuse.
amac
QUOTE (Nick+Aug 19 2006, 05:23 PM)
If this is the only universe it could have only come from God. There is no other source.

Which leads us to: "Where did God come from?"

If a person claims that God could just come into existence from nothing, or that He has always existed, then why is it unacceptable to say that the universe just came into existence or that it has always existed? It seems just as likely that a supreme being can just "appear" as that a universe can do the same. You can't claim one to be the Truth and at the same time completely deny the possibility of the other. It would be hypocritical. So, in short, if you claim that God created the universe, be prepared to answer questions as to who/what created Him in the first place. Likewise, if you claim that the universe just "happened", be prepared to answer questions like "why?" or "how?" Since nobody can know these answers (If they claim too feel free to call them a liar), we are left more confused than when we started. The fact is that nobody has any idea who/what created the universe or how it was created, and I sincerely doubt that anybody will ever know the answer, if there even is one.
StevenA
QUOTE (Nick+Aug 20 2006, 01:23 AM)
Why should I imagine a multiverse? What if this is the only universe? The multiverse concept is for those scientists who need to explain existence without God. No creation is necessary if you put the universe into something bigger.

If this is the only universe it could have only come from God. There is no other source.

The multiverse is an excuse.


Well if God can exist because you can envision him existing without physical evidence, then a multiverse could also exist in a similar way.

Why would God be limited to only creating one universe? Is there proof that God didn't create anything else?

For example do heaven or hell physically exist in this universe, or would you consider them alternate and disconnected and only God being the gate keeper? Basically, if we built some tower of Babel could we physically get to heaven (or hell) without needing to go through the man?

If we can do this, then what's the real need for God? And if we can't do this, then wouldn't heaven and hell be like universes disconnected from this one and the equivalent of a multiverse? If you can physically break out of hell and build a stairway to heaven, then religions have been lying to many people by saying that it's only through him that these places are reached.

I should avoid religious discussions though because they tend to simply degrade into "Yes it is", "No it isn't" etc.

I don't believe that all that can exist is limited to what we can physically understand and I'm rather certain some information is simply impossible to access from within our physical universe, at least over a finite period of time.

I think more likely characteristics of this universe can change over time and so the equivalent of a multiverse could physically exist here and now with the universe slowly altering over time. In that case the universe you see at any point in time depends on when you're watching it, with the probabilities being low of observing the times when little of anything interesting is happening, though if you consider that you have a lasting impact on events then you're molding the future of it as well.

If there's no free will, then there's no reason God has to test anyone. If there is free will, then you're also creating the universe also and people aren't simply passive observers to what God's doing.
Knot of this world


http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/bruno00.htm

wink.gif


"Keep it real!" - Ali G.


El_Machinae
QUOTE (Nick+Aug 20 2006, 01:23 AM)
Why should I imagine a multiverse?

Common courtesy for these types of discussions, mostly. I have imagined various types of gods often enough. You can disregard the multiverse theory if you see errors in logic, but it's not polite to disregard a theory because you don't like it.
Upisoft
QUOTE (krreagan+Aug 20 2006, 01:52 AM)
Unless it burns out biggrin.gif

Krreagan

Makes me wonder who is the electrician... laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
abduljakul
"If a person claims that God could just come into existence from nothing, or that He has always existed, then why is it unacceptable to say that the universe just came into existence or that it has always existed?"

because the 1st law of thermodynamics says that energy/matter cannot make itself appear from nothing or disappear into nothing.and most scientists agree that the universe(and everything inside it like stars,planets,etc.) has not always existed because the universe is not eternal.
gmilam
QUOTE (abduljakul+Aug 24 2006, 04:54 PM)
"If a person claims that God could just come into existence from nothing, or that He has always existed, then why is it unacceptable to say that the universe just came into existence or that it has always existed?"

because the 1st law of thermodynamics says that energy/matter cannot make itself appear from nothing or disappear into nothing.and most scientists agree that the universe(and everything inside it like stars,planets,etc.) has not always existed because the universe is not eternal.

How do you know the universe hasn't gone through an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction?
abduljakul
"How do you know the universe hasn't gone through an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction?"

where did i say that?
gmilam
QUOTE (abduljakul+Aug 24 2006, 05:13 PM)
"How do you know the universe hasn't gone through an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction?"

where did i say that?

In the post just above mine...

Your fellow human (yfh)
1 point I must add:

God and religion are two differnet things.

One, made by man, the other, made everything.

How "conscious" "God" [origin of existence] is -- this is an unaddressable concept.
abduljakul
gmilam where did i say "the universe hasn't gone through an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction"?
gmilam
QUOTE (abduljakul+Aug 24 2006, 04:54 PM)
"If a person claims that God could just come into existence from nothing, or that He has always existed, then why is it unacceptable to say that the universe just came into existence or that it has always existed?"

because the 1st law of thermodynamics says that energy/matter cannot make itself appear from nothing or disappear into nothing.and most scientists agree that the universe(and everything inside it like stars,planets,etc.) has not always existed because the universe is not eternal.

Technically, you said "most scientists agree that the universe has not always existed..."

I have never heard scientists say this. Most remain silent on what was before the big bang. My personal suspicion is that it has been in an endless cycle of rebirth and death, like a giant sine wave.
abduljakul
"My personal suspicion is that it has been in an endless cycle of rebirth and death, like a giant sine wave."

if we use your personal suspicion everything that dies(stars,humans,etc.) goes in an endless cycle of birth,death and rebirth.
gmilam
QUOTE (abduljakul+Aug 25 2006, 02:07 PM)
"My personal suspicion is that it has been in an endless cycle of rebirth and death, like a giant sine wave."

if we use your personal suspicion everything that dies(stars,humans,etc.) goes in an endless cycle of birth,death and rebirth.

If you consider my quarks being returned to the quark-pool as "rebirth" then that could be true.
michael kirkpatrick
This universe is basically a product of thought,and as long as long as the intent
remains fixed and focussed,then we will remain sustained by that process.
Dont worry too much we still have about 25 billion years to go before that "Idea"
is withdrawn?


regardsmichael.
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