Astrology existed since ancient times. Is it a science, or just pseudoscience.
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
Do you belive in astrology? Is it necessary for a theory to be true to belive in ?
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
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Astrology existed since ancient times.
Astrology has changed (a lot!) since ancient times
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| Astrology existed since ancient times. |
Astrology has changed (a lot!) since ancient times
Is it a science, or just pseudoscience.
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
It's not a science because for it to be a science it should learn from its own mistakes and astrology does not. It didn't evolve because it's not a science.
QUOTE
Is it necessary for a theory to be true to belive in ?
If you believe in the theory then by definition you think it's true. This doesn't mean it is true in scientific terms. But in scientific terms you wouldn't "believe" in the theory you would test it. Believing in a "theory" or something similar is religious faith not scientific one.
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| QUOTE |
| Is it necessary for a theory to be true to belive in ? |
If you believe in the theory then by definition you think it's true. This doesn't mean it is true in scientific terms. But in scientific terms you wouldn't "believe" in the theory you would test it. Believing in a "theory" or something similar is religious faith not scientific one.
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
In scientific terms the answer is an obvious yes. In non-scientific terms the answer is no. A theory is true when it's true no matter if it is approved or not approved by science.
Astrology and science are not compatible. You can have faith in science or in astrology but not on both.
I recall hearing on the radio at some point about a dude who discovered that there was some type of physically observable event as the planets moved in relation to eachother. I seem to remember this event either had to due with the sun's energy output, or something to due with interfering with radio waves. Sorry to be so vague. I don't remember the guy's name, but maybe someone on here knows who I'm talking about.
Astrology was the precursor of modern astronomy. If one looks at astrology charts they did a good job at predicting the paths of planets before gravity and mathematics became common. Where the two part company is astrology uses the planets to predict effects on human destiny and behavior. In that respect, it was also a procurer to psychology that attempted to correlate human behavior as a function of birth date. One may not agree with it, but is was the starting point for at least two branches of science.
As far as science theories go, science theory is often based on faith. For example, we have the string theory and the standard theory. Both of these can not be correct, since they are so different, implying one or maybe both are wrong with expressing reality, although both may still be good correlations. The BB theory and earth's iron core are both based on faith since definitive data has yet to provided. Yet faith keeps the theory alive with the hope that it can be made true in the future. In the mean time, faith can also keep scientific illusion alive until the spell is broken by hard data or rational arguments, although faith can neutralize rational arguments since the irrational nature of faith makes it hard to be fully rational.
As far as science theories go, science theory is often based on faith. For example, we have the string theory and the standard theory. Both of these can not be correct, since they are so different, implying one or maybe both are wrong with expressing reality, although both may still be good correlations. The BB theory and earth's iron core are both based on faith since definitive data has yet to provided. Yet faith keeps the theory alive with the hope that it can be made true in the future. In the mean time, faith can also keep scientific illusion alive until the spell is broken by hard data or rational arguments, although faith can neutralize rational arguments since the irrational nature of faith makes it hard to be fully rational.
I'm as skeptical as the next guy, but there does seem to be some correlation to the time of year you are born and your personality. Logically I know it can't have anything to do with the stars, but it does seem to be true. That said, it's by no means a science. But plenty of scientist believe in religion though, religion is defiantly NOT science.
When I was younger, I learned how to do horoscopes. It was a great way to meet chicks. What I found was that the correlation, although not perfect, was actually pretty good. It was fairly accurate at pointing out personality traits. But the saying' " a wise man rules the stars and a fool is ruled by them", is also true. I found that too many become too Dependant on the stars to make decisions.
QUOTE (MDT+Dec 28 2005, 11:48 PM)
When I was younger, I learned how to do horoscopes. It was a great way to meet chicks. What I found was that the correlation, although not perfect, was actually pretty good. It was fairly accurate at pointing out personality traits. But the saying' " a wise man rules the stars and a fool is ruled by them", is also true. I found that too many become too Dependant on the stars to make decisions.
they probably use vague terms to "predict" the future. It may seem that it was accurate because u interpret it that way.
they probably use vague terms to "predict" the future. It may seem that it was accurate because u interpret it that way.
There seems to be a great distance between the astrologists and actuall physical experiments. The same gap that would come to exist years from now between string theorists and the rest of the scientific community. Those who say astrology is not a science (and how true they are) also forget that neither is string theory or much of theoretical physics for that matters. So unless we wish to give a bias in favor of one thing just to shun it from another, we can not truely say that astrology is a real science. In my opinion, it is just a bunch of fabricated , superstitious, redundant junk but that is just one opinion 
......Years ago ....I was musing on an alternative expaination to Astrology that could shed light on the apparent characteristics endowed to people regarding their specific birth date.
After much wine I concluded it may have something to do with natural biorhythmic hormone production.
I thought of all the social species that inhabit our dirt-ball, particularly Bee's.
You have Workers, Drones & Queens...3 types that have near identical genetics, the only differences are caused by specific chemical additions (enzymes/hormones) that affect changes in the embryonic development.
Now what if our big success as a species (diversity of characteristics) is due to a seasonal biorythmic mechanism, affecting subtle genetic activation cascades within our cells after conception?......I'll leave the rest to you!
After much wine I concluded it may have something to do with natural biorhythmic hormone production.
I thought of all the social species that inhabit our dirt-ball, particularly Bee's.
You have Workers, Drones & Queens...3 types that have near identical genetics, the only differences are caused by specific chemical additions (enzymes/hormones) that affect changes in the embryonic development.
Now what if our big success as a species (diversity of characteristics) is due to a seasonal biorythmic mechanism, affecting subtle genetic activation cascades within our cells after conception?......I'll leave the rest to you!
Man has been aware for millenia that people's personality and body shape varied according to birth-time, developed almanacs and tables to quantify these 'types' and tried to make predictions. Astrology. I used to be sceptical. Now I think that its biogravitational mechanism.Jupiter plays a major role, being the most massive, swinging the odds round again every 12 years [chinese horoscope]. But, in the light of findings on cumulative gravitation by Mach and focults pendulum, the Milky way and local group instil a more steady anchorage, moulding the 'sun signs'.
I suspect the subtle differences we observe in people emerge from such minute fluctuations, the actual mechanism may never be deduced. I have my own ideas on this but Im not making it public until Ive finished writing it. sorry! But yeah, its not well understood scientifically and is probably indeterminable as a repeatable science as we know it. Yet there is an 'observable' at play and I myself seem to correspond to it.
Mr Voo,
Your ideas are outlandishly improbable, but who knows?
Your ideas are outlandishly improbable, but who knows?
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
Astrology existed since ancient times. Is it a science, or just pseudoscience.
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
Do you belive in astrology? Is it necessary for a theory to be true to belive in ?
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
Astrology is civilized (writing, observation, recording) Man's first religion.
As a 'religion' it was (is) designed to reconnect or to expand (the word religion means to bind-back) human consciousness to the transcendental realm (The Gods, Goddesses and Avatars).
It was the invention of the telescope and the discovery of the sun-centered solar system that created the seeming permanent rift between astrologers and astronomers. Originally all stargazers were both astrologers (interpreters) and astronomers (observation). The original astrological cosmology was built on the scientific context that we lived in an earth-centered solar system and when Galileo
discovered that the sun is the center of the solar system the prevailing astrological model partially collapsed.
Today, astrology is the abused wife (scorn) of astronomy and generally dissed by Christianity based upon weak criticism of astrologers in The Old Testament.
It is only by the study of astrology in an in-depth manner that one begins to discern an association between the 'self' and the cosmos. There is no logical or scientific argument that can prove any astrological truths; it is something that must be proved to the student. There is, of course, much quackery and crazyness within any astrological community, however, there is also much to be valued.
The 'value' come from replacing socio-cultural images of pathos (ie. crucifixions, etc.) that have a psychological tendency to reproduce themselves as conundrums in peoples lives. Astrology provides a cosmology of mythological archetypes (Venus, Mars, etc.) that assist greatly in self-understanding.
The emboldened truth about astrology is that The New Testament is, actually, a deeply veiled astrological / astromonical allegory of the sun (son) and the 12 (apostles) constellations of the zodiac. The sun that 'dies' at sunset and 'rises from the dead the next morning. In brief, Christianity is an allegorical representation of the ancient astrological teachings regarding how to go about transcending the self-infatuated aninmal based ego consciousness and (believe it or not) how to attain ultimate liberation and eternal life. The primary astrological teachings come from Chaldea (pre-Egyptian) and from ancient egypt. The astrological "Cliff Notes" would say astrology is about how to free the consciousness (soul, spirit, Christus, etc) from being crucified in the temporal realm of death upon matter (the body).
Scientists also have a problem quantyifying 'consciousness', just like trying to quantify astrology or any 'soft science' or religion. However, on the most obvious level.... hundreds of millions of people, daily, rise with the sun and sleep while the sun is 'dead' (missing). This is only the most obvious connection between the heavens (above) and the earth (below). There are many far more subtle connections relating actions and human consciousness to movements in the solar system.
AStrology is our last link to a personal mythology (super-star, movie star, Venusian beauty, Saturnian strict teacher, etc.).
Astrology is designed to lift one out of 'consensus reality' (the death row of the logical rational ONLY) and to gradually re-introduce the miraculous and trans-sensory reality that the scientific community cannot quantify (like intuition). Does 'intuition' exist? Certainly. Is there a connection between the above and the below?
Yes, if you can find it, and astrology is a primary tool to begin to undo the 'death affiriming' scientific cosmology of the 'consensus (mass cultural) reality'.
Western astrology is a corruption of true astrology and astrology, within the West, has been profaned and distorted mostly by Christianity which is trying to disguise its roots.
If someone were planning a picnic I think that they would like to know if the sun was going to shine. Astrology reveals that there are certain times that are favorable for certain activities, like a weather report. The astrological energies are subtle but, nevertheless, present. Many natural animal cycles are linked to lunar events. A human being is a highly evolved animal and not all of us are affected in the same way, but we are. Just ask any cop about full moons. Solar and lunar cycles are the most obvious, the other cycles are usually more subtle but discernable.
Best Regards.
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
Do you belive in astrology? Is it necessary for a theory to be true to belive in ?
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
Astrology is civilized (writing, observation, recording) Man's first religion.
As a 'religion' it was (is) designed to reconnect or to expand (the word religion means to bind-back) human consciousness to the transcendental realm (The Gods, Goddesses and Avatars).
It was the invention of the telescope and the discovery of the sun-centered solar system that created the seeming permanent rift between astrologers and astronomers. Originally all stargazers were both astrologers (interpreters) and astronomers (observation). The original astrological cosmology was built on the scientific context that we lived in an earth-centered solar system and when Galileo
discovered that the sun is the center of the solar system the prevailing astrological model partially collapsed.
Today, astrology is the abused wife (scorn) of astronomy and generally dissed by Christianity based upon weak criticism of astrologers in The Old Testament.
It is only by the study of astrology in an in-depth manner that one begins to discern an association between the 'self' and the cosmos. There is no logical or scientific argument that can prove any astrological truths; it is something that must be proved to the student. There is, of course, much quackery and crazyness within any astrological community, however, there is also much to be valued.
The 'value' come from replacing socio-cultural images of pathos (ie. crucifixions, etc.) that have a psychological tendency to reproduce themselves as conundrums in peoples lives. Astrology provides a cosmology of mythological archetypes (Venus, Mars, etc.) that assist greatly in self-understanding.
The emboldened truth about astrology is that The New Testament is, actually, a deeply veiled astrological / astromonical allegory of the sun (son) and the 12 (apostles) constellations of the zodiac. The sun that 'dies' at sunset and 'rises from the dead the next morning. In brief, Christianity is an allegorical representation of the ancient astrological teachings regarding how to go about transcending the self-infatuated aninmal based ego consciousness and (believe it or not) how to attain ultimate liberation and eternal life. The primary astrological teachings come from Chaldea (pre-Egyptian) and from ancient egypt. The astrological "Cliff Notes" would say astrology is about how to free the consciousness (soul, spirit, Christus, etc) from being crucified in the temporal realm of death upon matter (the body).
Scientists also have a problem quantyifying 'consciousness', just like trying to quantify astrology or any 'soft science' or religion. However, on the most obvious level.... hundreds of millions of people, daily, rise with the sun and sleep while the sun is 'dead' (missing). This is only the most obvious connection between the heavens (above) and the earth (below). There are many far more subtle connections relating actions and human consciousness to movements in the solar system.
AStrology is our last link to a personal mythology (super-star, movie star, Venusian beauty, Saturnian strict teacher, etc.).
Astrology is designed to lift one out of 'consensus reality' (the death row of the logical rational ONLY) and to gradually re-introduce the miraculous and trans-sensory reality that the scientific community cannot quantify (like intuition). Does 'intuition' exist? Certainly. Is there a connection between the above and the below?
Yes, if you can find it, and astrology is a primary tool to begin to undo the 'death affiriming' scientific cosmology of the 'consensus (mass cultural) reality'.
Western astrology is a corruption of true astrology and astrology, within the West, has been profaned and distorted mostly by Christianity which is trying to disguise its roots.
If someone were planning a picnic I think that they would like to know if the sun was going to shine. Astrology reveals that there are certain times that are favorable for certain activities, like a weather report. The astrological energies are subtle but, nevertheless, present. Many natural animal cycles are linked to lunar events. A human being is a highly evolved animal and not all of us are affected in the same way, but we are. Just ask any cop about full moons. Solar and lunar cycles are the most obvious, the other cycles are usually more subtle but discernable.
Best Regards.
Yes indeed.
I used to poopoo the idea that distant planets, distant regions of the galaxy or indeed other galaxies could have a gravitational influence here on earth, and that the sun clearly shows the strongest attraction. And the moon.
But have you read the focults pendulum experiment that proves machian [cumalative] gravitation?
Basically the solar day is 4 minutes different than the sidereal day, we all know. Focults pendulum traced out & matched not the solar but the sidereal time. this was amazing as it showed that it followed not the attraction of the sun but of the rest of the universe combined, or even perhaps the galactic center. That is amazing is it not. Gravitation is cumulative though individually weak at a distance. That is why I believe in the biogravitational effect.
I used to poopoo the idea that distant planets, distant regions of the galaxy or indeed other galaxies could have a gravitational influence here on earth, and that the sun clearly shows the strongest attraction. And the moon.
But have you read the focults pendulum experiment that proves machian [cumalative] gravitation?
Basically the solar day is 4 minutes different than the sidereal day, we all know. Focults pendulum traced out & matched not the solar but the sidereal time. this was amazing as it showed that it followed not the attraction of the sun but of the rest of the universe combined, or even perhaps the galactic center. That is amazing is it not. Gravitation is cumulative though individually weak at a distance. That is why I believe in the biogravitational effect.
Good Day,
It is great to have verification to determine whether this or that is a true science or not. And to make that determination we must first be able to prove it is not valid to rule out all possiblities. In making astrology an empirical science we be able to have full knowledge and validty on a number of other "sciences" that involve themselves with making astrology a science, including reincarnation. The great cosmic computer must be able to input data, not just from this lifetime alone, that would verify why souls with same aspects could act differently than other souls. It would have to be able to input data involving the generation a soul was born into and place on the planet. All of these factors could give a different flavor to the exact way a "same aspect" may be made manifest. Afterall in the precession of the equinoxes, which is assocaited with the tilting of the axis of the earth in a direction pointing toward the 12 constellations of the zodiac in succession occurs every 26,000 years. What a task! Does this make astrology anything less of a science? Or does it put light on our true capabilities to render it so or not?
Alot of this points to astrology as being a soft science and not a true science but then I would say are we prepared to prove Earth as the only place of existence and our top scientists as being more advanced then other (possible) intelligent existences? Can we prove any of this and declare it science?
Throughout my years I have too often noticed that those who render subjects like astrology as crap know nothing about the subject of which they speak and unfortunately are only name calling. Therefore they are in no position to determine its relevence when they nothing of which they speak. I say eat breakfast so that when you sit down to your internet you are not so seemingly cranky.
I want to thank a few viewpoints I read here today that taught me much.
This I would like to add to create more food for thought. In astrology the different planets are associated as being the rulers of different minerals. In anthroposophic science (which uses astrological correlations ) iron, which is associated with the planet mars, creates the anchor for the incarnating soul to come into the realms of physical existence. This would be something one would expect to take on faith if it was not also true that at the time of birth the newborn child has the highest iron content it will ever have in its entire earthly existence. So is it possible that the magnetic frequencies of planets have an effect on our sublte and physical bodies and can even determine the time of our incarnation or physical presence at all?
Just more food for thought,
It is great to have verification to determine whether this or that is a true science or not. And to make that determination we must first be able to prove it is not valid to rule out all possiblities. In making astrology an empirical science we be able to have full knowledge and validty on a number of other "sciences" that involve themselves with making astrology a science, including reincarnation. The great cosmic computer must be able to input data, not just from this lifetime alone, that would verify why souls with same aspects could act differently than other souls. It would have to be able to input data involving the generation a soul was born into and place on the planet. All of these factors could give a different flavor to the exact way a "same aspect" may be made manifest. Afterall in the precession of the equinoxes, which is assocaited with the tilting of the axis of the earth in a direction pointing toward the 12 constellations of the zodiac in succession occurs every 26,000 years. What a task! Does this make astrology anything less of a science? Or does it put light on our true capabilities to render it so or not?
Alot of this points to astrology as being a soft science and not a true science but then I would say are we prepared to prove Earth as the only place of existence and our top scientists as being more advanced then other (possible) intelligent existences? Can we prove any of this and declare it science?
Throughout my years I have too often noticed that those who render subjects like astrology as crap know nothing about the subject of which they speak and unfortunately are only name calling. Therefore they are in no position to determine its relevence when they nothing of which they speak. I say eat breakfast so that when you sit down to your internet you are not so seemingly cranky.
I want to thank a few viewpoints I read here today that taught me much.
This I would like to add to create more food for thought. In astrology the different planets are associated as being the rulers of different minerals. In anthroposophic science (which uses astrological correlations ) iron, which is associated with the planet mars, creates the anchor for the incarnating soul to come into the realms of physical existence. This would be something one would expect to take on faith if it was not also true that at the time of birth the newborn child has the highest iron content it will ever have in its entire earthly existence. So is it possible that the magnetic frequencies of planets have an effect on our sublte and physical bodies and can even determine the time of our incarnation or physical presence at all?
Just more food for thought,
Mr Webb and J. Heart reflect the dichotomy prevalent in our general society.
One, a pragmatic realist attuned to science (real science) and the other, sorry Jewel but I think you already knew, ready to give plausibility to pseudo-scientific nonsense. Science can, does or will explain everything raised by JewelledHeart.
"The great cosmic computer" and "souls" are two great terms that mean exactly nothing. The finite human existence we have does not detract from its beauty, wonder and joy and pursuit of happiness.
We (OK, in Western countries) are lucky to live in a 'golden age' where most disease has been defeated, most are not hungry and many can explore cerebral activities. (Admittedly the planet is going to get a bick sick and, hopefully, will get better.)
To cling to astrology as having any credibility is Dark Ages stuff. Embrace the world we can see........................because that is all we CAN see, not some mystical nonsense.
One, a pragmatic realist attuned to science (real science) and the other, sorry Jewel but I think you already knew, ready to give plausibility to pseudo-scientific nonsense. Science can, does or will explain everything raised by JewelledHeart.
"The great cosmic computer" and "souls" are two great terms that mean exactly nothing. The finite human existence we have does not detract from its beauty, wonder and joy and pursuit of happiness.
We (OK, in Western countries) are lucky to live in a 'golden age' where most disease has been defeated, most are not hungry and many can explore cerebral activities. (Admittedly the planet is going to get a bick sick and, hopefully, will get better.)
To cling to astrology as having any credibility is Dark Ages stuff. Embrace the world we can see........................because that is all we CAN see, not some mystical nonsense.
I guess a soft science is a subject which has corroborative observations but the exact mechanism of which eludes the experimenter.
As in astrology's 'gravobiology', we observe the timely arrival of types of people. Yet no amount of invitro or collider or genetic experimental research can determine a mechanism.
Yet!
The Jesus fellas can start to get get scientific here:
The birth of a great king is under the influence of a triple conjuction of certain planets. Thats how the Magi found him. Then he was raised accordingly.
The next event is 2034. So if you fellas are looking for a second coming, then find the location and thats where a 'potential' king will be born.
It doesnt mean Jesus comes back from the dead. He will be king - like. Get it?
As in astrology's 'gravobiology', we observe the timely arrival of types of people. Yet no amount of invitro or collider or genetic experimental research can determine a mechanism.
Yet!
The Jesus fellas can start to get get scientific here:
The birth of a great king is under the influence of a triple conjuction of certain planets. Thats how the Magi found him. Then he was raised accordingly.
The next event is 2034. So if you fellas are looking for a second coming, then find the location and thats where a 'potential' king will be born.
It doesnt mean Jesus comes back from the dead. He will be king - like. Get it?
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
Astrology existed since ancient times.
Therefore, you know it was created by people who had no idea what the universe was like. People who didn't even know what a planet or star was.
Therefore, you know it was created by people who had no idea what the universe was like. People who didn't even know what a planet or star was.
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
Is it a science, or just pseudoscience.
Well it's definitely not a science. I wouldn't even call it pseudoscience. It actually falls under the category of mumbo-jumbo.
Well it's definitely not a science. I wouldn't even call it pseudoscience. It actually falls under the category of mumbo-jumbo.
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
See previous answer. It's not a science.
See previous answer. It's not a science.
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
Is it necessary for a theory to be true to [be] belive[d] in ?
No. People believe in all sorts of things that have no basis in reality and which are completely false.
I'm a newbie here. I must say I am dissapointed by this thread as no hard scientific views have been posted here.
The definition of science is more or less "something which satisfies experimental evidence and makes successful predictions". So, there is a clear road if we want to accept astrology as science: it must makes successful predictions, which should be expeimentally tested.
Firstly, Astrological forces cannot be explained by the forces of Physics : Gravity, EM, and the nuclear forces. The only measurable effect can be of gravity, but even Jupiter's gravity is very, very small. See this site for details.
A lot of people think that Astrology gives accurate personality descriptions. But you may want to have a look at these effects before trusting human perception: Forer Effect , Confirmation Bias. These are also called Hidden Persuaders.
About some actual statistical analysis done by scientists, download this pdf (not big, it's 158 kb) . It proves that astrology has no effects that can be experimentally measured.
Finally, science is not based on belief. It is based on evidence. Since astrology has no evidence supporting it, it is not science. Belief doesn't matter in science.
Astrology sees mankind as being not only influenced by hereditary factors and the environment .. but also by the state of our solar system at the moment of birth or time ..
The planets are regarded as basic life-forces .. the tools we live by as well as the basis of our very substance .. These planetary forces take on different forms .. depending on their zodiacal position at the time and the way in which they relate ..
The aspects formed between the planets describe these relationships .. the positions of the planets .. in relation to the place of birth tell us of their expression in the spheres of life depicted by the astrological houses ..
By interpreting the roles of the planets and their qualities .. the elements .. signs and houses .. and creating a synthesis .. astrology is able to present a complete and comprehensive picture of the person and his/her potential .. based on the natal horoscope.
Astrology .. having existed for more than 3000 years and still continuing to evolve .. can consider itself to be the elder sister of psychology. Both disciplines concern themselves with the psyche.
As with astrology there are different branches and schools of psychology. Some prefer scientific approaches - if this is possible with the complexity of the human psyche and others follow holistic or alternative concepts. These latter approaches often display parallels to astrology and combine easily with it. Among them is Carl Gustav Jung's Analytical Psychology.
Have you ever looked up at a clear night sky .. felt the magic of so many twinkling bright stars .. and wondered .. ??
People throughout history have looked up at the night sky and felt that it contained a fascinating mystery. Long before man invented telescopes .. or understood what the stars really are .. he thought they were important to him in some way. He felt the stars were magical and so beautiful that they must have some special message.
The question of whether Astrology is a true science or not .. ?? Well .. Astrology is the study of a persons being .. as related to the planets .. and science is simply the study of .. what do you think .. ??
The statement above is a nonsensical piece of rambling; "all belief is pseudo", come on get real.
Everyone who believes in astrology should have a look through the skeptic's dictionary (skepdic.com) and get a bit of realism back in their lives. I appreciate that a lot of people are inclined to 'magical thinking', that is linking things that have no relationship, but the fact you are at a science web site should predispose you to a bit of critical thinking.
Physfan
Astrology is neither a science nor a pseudoscience. If by Science we mean knowledge/knowing then it is a science. But if used in the sense of a tool or instrument having applicability, (also called Shastra) then it is not a science. Because Shastra (i.e. technology, the application of science) is something we use or we can use, but if something uses us, or if we are used by something, then we cannot call it a science.
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Then it is called a truth or law. A truth or law can only be discovered, not invented. We use technology to apply scientific laws. In the case of astrology, whatever we did, whatever we do, and whatever we’ll be doing in the future are all predetermined.
Hence we cannot use it to change destiny because whatever we are about to do are already predetermined. The only question remains is how much we can know of our own predetermination.
Astrology indicates towards an (apparently) invisible pattern, which is ordained (an order) by existence, which is beyond nationalities, traditions, religion and culture. But simply based on time (and place). i.e., people born in a particular month have the same type/pattern of characteristics which are similar, not the same. Aries, Taurus Gemini etc. All other patterns, also known as culture, nationalities, religion, temperaments etc, are man-made or almost man-made (Or accidental.)The patterns indicated by astrology is simply existential, universal,, and unique.
Why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.:
Because it is already evolved to its maximum. In fact, astrology has no evolution, it is a revelation. Revelation by Yogis of ancient times.
Sorry to say this, but the truth is that astrology is already perfect. But unfortunately we are not familiar with true astrology. Unfortunately the present world is not familiar with true astrology. (I will talk about what is true astrology and who brought it to light later).
No, I don’t believe in astrology. I know it to be true. I have glimpses of its working.
Any branch of knowledge is pseudo if it is based on belief.
If you believe in astrology, then it is pseudo. All belief is pseudo. A science is pseudo, if it is requires us to believe in it. We can make any science pseudo by believing in it.
”Quote: It's not a science because for it to be a science it should learn from its own mistakes and astrology does not. It didn't evolve because it's not a science.”
That is the fault of the so called professional astrologers, there has not been a scientist in astrology. Till now.
I dont understand how it is you, a believer say that it (astrological charting work)cannot be appilied. And can't be called a Science.Of course it is appilied to the life and used in the context that with a compatability chart one can change behaviors to suit the other individuals nuances (for lack of a better thought form now) and to suit their "psyche" and behavioring ~ which will eventually cause a better relationship to come about. Is that not applicable enough ?
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The truth of Astrology is flexable and never professes to be a static science.
If you were unable to apply the lessons and make changes based on ths laws then and only then could one call it predestiny. It is merely the patterns of the solar system at the time you determined you would integrate to earth again and in which parental body.
Nothing ever says that as a Science or Truth or Law it can not be worked in a thousand differing ways.
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I completly have to disagree that it has been discovered enough in todays age to be said to have reached maximum potential...this is an outrageous claim. How can it have evolved far enough with out being used exploited and streched. If the majority poo poo's it. How can you say we have studied all it's mechanisms????
Unless one of those stars supernovas and sends out a gamma ray burst!
Yet this information will not shift their belief; it fascinates me that the human race can be so advanced yet still have adherents to this fairy tale nonsense.
Physfan
Is not this obvious to everyone? 50% free will is maximum humanity can get; single individual has even less freedom if he wants to GROW.
Net, humanity has to grow (get more complex) , or it will miss the duty it has and disappear. Does it have a choice to disappear? In principle, yes.
To survive, humanity has to behave within constraints which are imposed by its very existence, laws of nature but it does not mean 100% predestination. The more developed organism is, the more free will it has, but never >50%.
Mr. E- thank You for pointing to some good sources. There is so much scrap around , Maya, that it takes months to find something that leads closer to THE KNOWLEDGE.
No. People believe in all sorts of things that have no basis in reality and which are completely false.
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
It depends how you use the word. The word "theory" has taken on a casual meaning and can refer to things non-scientific. However, if we wish to speak precisely then a theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world." If we stick to that definition then there are no non-scientific theories and the question doesn't make any sense.
For a theory to be considered true it has to be a theory that has survived repeated testing. Such a theory would have been true before it was tested, but it would not be considered true by the scientific community until after it was tested. I know it sound like splitting hairs, but it's actually a very important difference.
Astrology cannot stand up to testing so it is considered false.
It depends how you use the word. The word "theory" has taken on a casual meaning and can refer to things non-scientific. However, if we wish to speak precisely then a theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world." If we stick to that definition then there are no non-scientific theories and the question doesn't make any sense.
For a theory to be considered true it has to be a theory that has survived repeated testing. Such a theory would have been true before it was tested, but it would not be considered true by the scientific community until after it was tested. I know it sound like splitting hairs, but it's actually a very important difference.
Astrology cannot stand up to testing so it is considered false.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science
Technically everything is a science
even god (I dont believe in god)
Science in most accepted definitions is just how something is explained,
the science of god is that he is all knowing etc
the science of the sun is that hydrogens are fired into each other making helium
One can be observed and we can get answers from it and it evolves as we know more, one doesnt evolve at all because the answer has already been made
Would we class chemistry as a science if one day we figured everything out and it no longer evolved?
Just because an entire subject has all of its answers and doesnt need anymore (regardless of them being true or not) doesnt mean it isnt a science.
A theory is merely a thought
While we know gravity exists we dont really know what makes it for sure, but we call the particles gravitons.
Gravity is a theory even though we can observe its physical effects all around us.
Everything the human brain has thought of is a theory, regardless of being true, false scientific or non scientific (even though i dont think anything can be non-scientific)
Is it a science?
Yes
whether its true is to be decided, i personally dont believe it.
However close bodies near earth can affect us mentally and kind of physically
where do you all think the term "luna[r]tic" came from? (lunatic is someone who is mad)
lets seperate the words
luna[r] tic
lunar being moon
tic being some form of physical sign.
It is theorised that as our brains and bodies consist majorily of water and that the moon is close enough to have an impact on water here on earth (how we get waves) that the moon when it is full can affect us mentally more than when it is only slightly showing.
there were a few experiments made and it showed how mentally unstable people became more mad during full moons
but i think other stars are too far away to have any MAJOR direct effect on our personality, that is due to DNA, and DNA is made via dominant and ressecives working together to form the body and mind.
All matter affects each other, that is true, but i doubt other stars affects us a lot.
Technically everything is a science
even god (I dont believe in god)
Science in most accepted definitions is just how something is explained,
the science of god is that he is all knowing etc
the science of the sun is that hydrogens are fired into each other making helium
One can be observed and we can get answers from it and it evolves as we know more, one doesnt evolve at all because the answer has already been made
Would we class chemistry as a science if one day we figured everything out and it no longer evolved?
Just because an entire subject has all of its answers and doesnt need anymore (regardless of them being true or not) doesnt mean it isnt a science.
A theory is merely a thought
While we know gravity exists we dont really know what makes it for sure, but we call the particles gravitons.
Gravity is a theory even though we can observe its physical effects all around us.
Everything the human brain has thought of is a theory, regardless of being true, false scientific or non scientific (even though i dont think anything can be non-scientific)
Is it a science?
Yes
whether its true is to be decided, i personally dont believe it.
However close bodies near earth can affect us mentally and kind of physically
where do you all think the term "luna[r]tic" came from? (lunatic is someone who is mad)
lets seperate the words
luna[r] tic
lunar being moon
tic being some form of physical sign.
It is theorised that as our brains and bodies consist majorily of water and that the moon is close enough to have an impact on water here on earth (how we get waves) that the moon when it is full can affect us mentally more than when it is only slightly showing.
there were a few experiments made and it showed how mentally unstable people became more mad during full moons
but i think other stars are too far away to have any MAJOR direct effect on our personality, that is due to DNA, and DNA is made via dominant and ressecives working together to form the body and mind.
All matter affects each other, that is true, but i doubt other stars affects us a lot.
science is based on facts and theorys, whitch are tested.
Well no, astrology is not a Science, nor is it an Art, but a Language.
Thru it most of those who are proeficent at it can predict coming events to a person or a group of persons, like a town, a country, a business, a club, etc. It can also be used to read psychological inclinations in a person.
Solar planetary positions do have an efect on humans and it is astrology the language used to interpret what efects will said planet positions will produce over time.
Astrology as any other language has taken bits from here and there and has evolved to the point where the use of signs, houses, rulerships, dignities and other tools can be discarded. This doesn't mean that this tools are useless, just that astrology has evolved and that there is branch that has no need for them.
It doesn't matter if some or all believe in it or not because it works anyway.
Thru it most of those who are proeficent at it can predict coming events to a person or a group of persons, like a town, a country, a business, a club, etc. It can also be used to read psychological inclinations in a person.
Solar planetary positions do have an efect on humans and it is astrology the language used to interpret what efects will said planet positions will produce over time.
Astrology as any other language has taken bits from here and there and has evolved to the point where the use of signs, houses, rulerships, dignities and other tools can be discarded. This doesn't mean that this tools are useless, just that astrology has evolved and that there is branch that has no need for them.
It doesn't matter if some or all believe in it or not because it works anyway.
I'm a newbie here.
I must say I am dissapointed by this thread as no hard scientific views have been posted here. The definition of science is more or less "something which satisfies experimental evidence and makes successful predictions". So, there is a clear road if we want to accept astrology as science: it must makes successful predictions, which should be expeimentally tested.
Firstly, Astrological forces cannot be explained by the forces of Physics : Gravity, EM, and the nuclear forces. The only measurable effect can be of gravity, but even Jupiter's gravity is very, very small. See this site for details.
A lot of people think that Astrology gives accurate personality descriptions. But you may want to have a look at these effects before trusting human perception: Forer Effect , Confirmation Bias. These are also called Hidden Persuaders.
About some actual statistical analysis done by scientists, download this pdf (not big, it's 158 kb) . It proves that astrology has no effects that can be experimentally measured.
Finally, science is not based on belief. It is based on evidence. Since astrology has no evidence supporting it, it is not science. Belief doesn't matter in science.
A very very small influence is all thats needed to affect a growing cell.
Gravitation is cumulative [machian] . in fact focults pendulum proved it many years ago.
despite Forers effect being a factor, it doesnt diminish my [and others]observations of types of people so far.
Some real science could be done thus:
Set up a gravity sensitive iterative system and monitor the results every minute for 9 months. Have at least 365 systems and run over 96 years, or whatever the longest planet year is.
Start comparitively analysing the data after a few weeks.
The system may be a number of gold atoms in quantum dot chamber or weights attached to sensitive scales... or those quartz balls!
As a scientist I would be very uneasy about attempting to prove that gravitation does not have any effect on us!
Gravitation is cumulative [machian] . in fact focults pendulum proved it many years ago.
despite Forers effect being a factor, it doesnt diminish my [and others]observations of types of people so far.
Some real science could be done thus:
Set up a gravity sensitive iterative system and monitor the results every minute for 9 months. Have at least 365 systems and run over 96 years, or whatever the longest planet year is.
Start comparitively analysing the data after a few weeks.
The system may be a number of gold atoms in quantum dot chamber or weights attached to sensitive scales... or those quartz balls!
As a scientist I would be very uneasy about attempting to prove that gravitation does not have any effect on us!
Hello,
According to me Astrology is not a complete science. But my friend's grandfather who is an astrologer thinks it is 100% complete science.
According to me Astrology is not a complete science. But my friend's grandfather who is an astrologer thinks it is 100% complete science.
Science (from Latin scientia - knowledge) refers to the system of acquiring knowledge – based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research.
This one is based from Wikipedia. Astrology is a science, sirius. Because it requires empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism. Astrology is an organized body of knowledge humans have gained by research. Astrology, therefore, is a science.
This one is based from Wikipedia. Astrology is a science, sirius. Because it requires empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism. Astrology is an organized body of knowledge humans have gained by research. Astrology, therefore, is a science.
But do you think that looking at palms of people, gazing at movements of stars and gazing at crystal balls to tell people's future is science? 
Yes. I know reading palms and future predictions are very out of this world. Very out of science. But anyway, here is the reason why it's considered as science:
For many years, scientists have rejected the principles of astrology. However, millions of people believe and practice it. All over the world newspapers publish daily astrological forecasts, commonly known as horoscopes.Astrology is the study of how events on earth correspond to the positions and movements of astronomical bodies. These astronomical bodies included are the sun, moon, planets and stars. Depending on the position of these bodies at the exact moment of a person's birth,
It does not only predict future by using crystal balls. They depend it on the sun, the moon, the planets, their arrangements and movements. Still, there is a basis.
It's science.
For many years, scientists have rejected the principles of astrology. However, millions of people believe and practice it. All over the world newspapers publish daily astrological forecasts, commonly known as horoscopes.Astrology is the study of how events on earth correspond to the positions and movements of astronomical bodies. These astronomical bodies included are the sun, moon, planets and stars. Depending on the position of these bodies at the exact moment of a person's birth,
It does not only predict future by using crystal balls. They depend it on the sun, the moon, the planets, their arrangements and movements. Still, there is a basis.
It's science.
Doesnt mean its GOOD science...
Absolutely
Science is good.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
This thread reminds me of another thread I made a while ago about astrology and how it is fake. Anyway, without scientific evidence, astrology is nothing but a collection of ancient superstitions which is incompatible with modern society.
Hmm... Maybe I should conduct an experiment and see how accurate they really are...
Hmm... Maybe I should conduct an experiment and see how accurate they really are...
Years back I developed an interest in astrology as a way to meet the babes. It was not only fun to do, but it gave me insight into them, since they would help fill in the details. It created faster intimacy because it would say things about each other that both could verify.
It is moderately easy to do a horoscope. It is different than what one sees in the paper. It requires ones exact time and day of birth, and sometimes the global coordinates of the place of birth. This tells exactly how the planets and stars were lined-up at that time and at that place. That part is fairly good science considering the tools the pre-science people had to work with. Just the eyes and some basic hand tools.
After the science part, the influence of all the planets is a little less scientific. However, astrologers appear to have found certain behavior patterns that work fairly well for different signs. Much is flattering and very little is critical. If one wanted to run a scientific experiment before passing judgment, have an horoscope done for oneself as well as a friend with a different personality and compare.
It is moderately easy to do a horoscope. It is different than what one sees in the paper. It requires ones exact time and day of birth, and sometimes the global coordinates of the place of birth. This tells exactly how the planets and stars were lined-up at that time and at that place. That part is fairly good science considering the tools the pre-science people had to work with. Just the eyes and some basic hand tools.
After the science part, the influence of all the planets is a little less scientific. However, astrologers appear to have found certain behavior patterns that work fairly well for different signs. Much is flattering and very little is critical. If one wanted to run a scientific experiment before passing judgment, have an horoscope done for oneself as well as a friend with a different personality and compare.
In avoidance for quoting waaay too many of man's genre or 'houses' of thought, I relate that everything is relative to interpretation. If a given man's mental-spiritual path leads to discriminating against needless suffering and violence he aught to be admired- even if that man prays to Dr. Seuss and studies the bone-graphs of spineless cowards, whatever. If we can train our thinking all-inclusively toward our own betterment and astrology or physics or the combination leads us there?... we aught to 'blend' and not debunk. Astrology- like physics- has an order whether you agree or not. Astrology and it's origins are older than man, etched in Earth-Rock and solar-space unobserved before the observers. Like the Sun- we cannot validate or deny why Astrology has a working mechanism- we can only say that it happens and provides for something. Put on a pair of mig-welding glasses and watch a sunset, all things have a system that is actionable and consequential. Other dimensions haves behaviors unexplored and appear alien to us. The dualistic nature of man demands competition and, to quote a great one and appear the well read reference guy "it is by way of man's positive competition that excellence is forged." However when it comes to man relating his understanding of the RIGHT way to understand life, it is the very Planetary/Solar energy that boosts his misunderstanding of universal energy. I think human beings need a mystery to solve- without which the soul may float formless like Casper the Ghost. Simple. The training of men and mind provide more answer than the untrained minds, we apply a monetary value, and 'wallet' such is life and man's catch 22 nature.
Peace out my trouts,
until the next age,
Mindful~
Peace out my trouts,
until the next age,
Mindful~
Astrology sees mankind as being not only influenced by hereditary factors and the environment .. but also by the state of our solar system at the moment of birth or time .. The planets are regarded as basic life-forces .. the tools we live by as well as the basis of our very substance .. These planetary forces take on different forms .. depending on their zodiacal position at the time and the way in which they relate ..
The aspects formed between the planets describe these relationships .. the positions of the planets .. in relation to the place of birth tell us of their expression in the spheres of life depicted by the astrological houses ..
By interpreting the roles of the planets and their qualities .. the elements .. signs and houses .. and creating a synthesis .. astrology is able to present a complete and comprehensive picture of the person and his/her potential .. based on the natal horoscope.
Astrology .. having existed for more than 3000 years and still continuing to evolve .. can consider itself to be the elder sister of psychology. Both disciplines concern themselves with the psyche.
As with astrology there are different branches and schools of psychology. Some prefer scientific approaches - if this is possible with the complexity of the human psyche and others follow holistic or alternative concepts. These latter approaches often display parallels to astrology and combine easily with it. Among them is Carl Gustav Jung's Analytical Psychology.
Have you ever looked up at a clear night sky .. felt the magic of so many twinkling bright stars .. and wondered .. ??
People throughout history have looked up at the night sky and felt that it contained a fascinating mystery. Long before man invented telescopes .. or understood what the stars really are .. he thought they were important to him in some way. He felt the stars were magical and so beautiful that they must have some special message.
The question of whether Astrology is a true science or not .. ?? Well .. Astrology is the study of a persons being .. as related to the planets .. and science is simply the study of .. what do you think .. ??
The thing about astrology is it is trying to draw connections between things that do not have connections. The motion of the planets and the stars have no physical effect on us. But lets not get to hard on Astrology. After all, as another poster said, Astrology is the elder sister to psychology, and it also was the beginning of astronomy. In ancient times they were the same thing. Of course Astronomy, and other extra terrestrial investigations evolved from this. Just like numerology was initially part of math. Now its nonsense, but in the grand scheme of things it has great historical significance. What if astrology never existed? Would some of the rational scientific theories we now have exist? We don't know. But read any books on the history of science and one will see that astrology, and even numerology have played a big role.
QUOTE (heisenberg+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 AM)
Astrology existed since ancient times. Is it a science, or just pseudoscience.
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
Do you believe in astrology? Is it necessary for a theory to be true to believe in ?
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
Hello everyone,
1) Astrology works beyond all logic and reason. Period. I know it works. It is not surprising, because the universe also exists beyond all logic and reason.
2) Most of what is available in the name of astrology is pure rubbish. I agree with Nessus on this point. Many astrologers are dishing out more and more rubbish every day without knowing the truth of astrology. If they go on like this we can never know the truth of astrology. But existence is wise enough to produce some genius to bring the real truth of astrology in our time. (I will come to that later…)
3) So far there is no movement from astrologers to standardize astrology, as astrology is rife with so many inconsistencies & controversies in basic premises such as what is the correct birth time (is it the first breath, cutting of the umbilical cord, touching of the head on the ground, which is the meaning of the Sanskrit word Jataka (horoscope) or the coming of the head out of the mother’s body? This is apart from the fact that there are several zodiacs, the practitioners of which claim that only their zodiac is the correct one. That amounts to calling each other dishonest. Every astrologer knows that a man can have only one horoscope and only the zodiac which represents the correct horoscope can be the correct one.
4) Once the basic calculations and a few theories are learned, astrologers are interested only in making money. No one can blame them, it is only natural. There are professionals and there are scientists in any field of knowledge. But at least the professionals can be real professionals and try to standardize astrology. They don’t do it, because when money is coming, one loses interest in finding the truth. And professionals are not scientists. All truth-seeking is born out of discontent and non-complacency. Here, one is reminded of GK.Chesterton’s saying: ‘A man may cheat in his profession, but he will never cheat in his hobby’. It is unethical to practice astrology without resolving its inconsistencies first. Astrology badly needs standardization. Then only shall we be able to find out the working of astrology, or if it works at all.
Astrology is neither a science nor a pseudoscience. If by Science we mean knowledge/knowing then it is a science. But if used in the sense of a tool or instrument having applicability, (also called Shastra) then it is not a science. Because Shastra (i.e. technology, the application of science) is something we use or we can use, but if something uses us, or if we are used by something, then we cannot call it a science. Then it is called a truth or law. A truth or law can only be discovered, not invented. We use technology to apply scientific laws. In the case of astrology, whatever we did, whatever we do, and whatever we’ll be doing in the future are all predetermined. Hence we cannot use it to change destiny because whatever we are about to do are already predetermined. The only question remains is how much we can know of our own predetermination.
Astrology indicates towards an (apparently) invisible pattern, which is ordained (an order) by existence, which is beyond nationalities, traditions, religion and culture. But simply based on time (and place). i.e., people born in a particular month have the same type/pattern of characteristics which are similar, not the same. Aries, Taurus Gemini etc. All other patterns, also known as culture, nationalities, religion, temperaments etc, are man-made or almost man-made (Or accidental.)The patterns indicated by astrology is simply existential, universal,, and unique.
Why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.:
Because it is already evolved to its maximum. In fact, astrology has no evolution, it is a revelation. Revelation by Yogis of ancient times.
Sorry to say this, but the truth is that astrology is already perfect. But unfortunately we are not familiar with true astrology. Unfortunately the present world is not familiar with true astrology. (I will talk about what is true astrology and who brought it to light later).
No, I don’t believe in astrology. I know it to be true. I have glimpses of its working.
Any branch of knowledge is pseudo if it is based on belief.
If you believe in astrology, then it is pseudo. All belief is pseudo. A science is pseudo, if it is requires us to believe in it. We can make any science pseudo by believing in it.
”Quote: It's not a science because for it to be a science it should learn from its own mistakes and astrology does not. It didn't evolve because it's not a science.”
That is the fault of the so called professional astrologers, there has not been a scientist in astrology. Till now.
To know if astrology works
Method - 1 (How I came to know astrology’s workings and this is the method for the average person)
First read a very good sun sign book, I read ‘Linda Goodman’s sun signs’ which I still consider the best or ‘Russell Grant’s sun signs’ attentively and without prejudice or skepticism. Read the introduction well, before reading any of the chapters, and never (I repeat never) take the date range given as 21st March for Aries, 21st April for Taurus etc, instead take April 14th for Aries , May 15th for Taurus etc. This is the true reason why astrology is not believed in by half the world. You will get tremendous accuracy in realizing people’s true characteristics, (the types) just by doing this. Though this is not all, because this is the position of the sun only, you have to take in to account the position of the moon also, again never by the usually given date range i.e. by 21st march for Aries, but by April 14th for Aries, Which is known as Sidereal Zodiac. Here, I would like to say that I am not a Siderealist. For your information, there are two categories of astrologers known as Tropicalists and Siderealists. I am neither. I am only interested in solving the mysteries of life and making my life less miserable and more blissful.
Please try this method and let me know. You can also study famous personalities, because unlike one’s own friends or family members, who are known only to oneself, celebrities are known to most people.
I tried this (for months and years) and found the true reason (given above) why astrology appeared vague to people and wrote to a famous astrology organization and their reply was just like the reply of the famous Mulla Nasrudin.
The Mulla was made a magistrate. During his first case the plaintiff argued so persuasively that he exclaimed:
“I believe that you are right!”
The clerk of the court begged him to restrain himself, for the defendant had not been heard yet.
Nasrudin was so carried away by the eloquence of the defendant that he cried out as soon as the man had finished his evidence:
“I believe you are right!” said Nasrudin.
The clerk of the court could not allow this. “Your honor, they cannot both be right!”
“I believe your are right too” said Nasrudin.
Such a luke-warm attitude will never do.
MDT: Astrology uses the planets to predict effects on human destiny and behavior. In that respect, it was also a precursor to psychology that attempted to correlate human behavior as a function of birth date. It was fairly accurate at pointing out personality traits.
“Drude: In my opinion, it is just a bunch of fabricated, superstitious, redundant junk but that is just one opinion”
That is a healthy attitude of a non-believer or one who refuses to believe anything without experiencing the truthfulness of it.
“Mr voo:
‘The actual mechanism may never be deduced’. But fortunately somebody has done it recently. This is method 2, the scientific method, I will give details later.
John charles webb:
There is no logical or scientific argument that can prove any astrological truths; it is something that must be proved to the student. There is, of course, much quackery and craziness within any astrological community; however, there is also much to be valued.
There is much quackery and dishonesty in any astrological community, I agree.
The emboldened truth about astrology is that The New Testament is, actually, a deeply veiled astrological / astronomical allegory of the sun (son) and the 12 (apostles) constellations of the zodiac. The sun that 'dies' at sunset and 'rises from the dead the next morning. In brief, Christianity is an allegorical representation of the ancient astrological teachings regarding how to go about transcending the self-infatuated animal based ego consciousness and (believe it or not) how to attain ultimate liberation and eternal life. The primary astrological teachings come from Chaldea (pre-Egyptian) and from ancient Egypt. The astrological "Cliff Notes" would say astrology is about how to free the consciousness (soul, spirit, Christus, etc) from being crucified in the temporal realm of death upon matter (the body).
Western astrology is a corruption of true astrology and astrology, within the West, has been profaned and distorted mostly by Christianity which is trying to disguise its roots.
John, you have hit the nail on the head. Western astrology is an aberration (corruption) or deviation of true astrology and Christianity itself is full of astrological symbolism. Take for example, the concept of Father, Child and Holy ghost is nothing but the first, fifth and the ninth houses or signs. i.e. Aries, Leo and Sagittarius. Or Mars (Holy ghost, self), Sun (Son, Creativity) and Jupiter (Father), Christ is Aries (Ram, lamb) on the cross (Pisces). It was an attempt at locating the first point of (sidereal) Aries.
Just ask any cop about full moons. Solar and lunar cycles are the most obvious, the other cycles are usually more subtle but discernible.
Thanks for the info.
I will come to ‘galactic center’ later.
Physfan: because that is all we CAN see, not some mystical nonsense.
Physfan, there are certain things which the physical eyes cannot see but the inner eye can see. Patterns, for example. Or beauty. Artists see what ordinary people cannot see.
LLL: A theory is merely a thought
Everything the human brain has thought of is a theory, regardless of being true, false scientific or non scientific (even though i don’t think anything can be non-scientific)
where do you all think the term "luna[r]tic" came from? (lunatic is someone who is mad) lets separate the words
LLL, You are cool. Fantastic!
Happythestripper: Astrology,having existed for more than 3000 years and still continuing to evolve, can consider itself to be the elder sister of psychology. Both disciplines concern themselves with the psyche.
Yes, that is true, but this view is the western mind’s (scientific/analytical mind) view, but the eastern mind (intuitive/experiential mind) considers astrology as a yogic experience.
Steveo: The thing about astrology is it is trying to draw connections between things that do not have connections
Astrology is the elder sister to psychology, and it also was the beginning of astronomy.
(Francis bacon: men see connections where there is none, that is why astrology is believed in)
Steveo, I am avoiding quotations of people who haven’t experienced or couldn’t see the truth of astrology, because I know astrology works. If you are patient and persevering you can see the connections. Try to experiment with Method-1 given above.
I am often reminded of J.Krishnamurti’s words. ‘One man believes there is God, another man believes there is no God, both are believers.’
regards.
why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.
Do you believe in astrology? Is it necessary for a theory to be true to believe in ?
For theory to be true is it necessary for theory to be scientific ?
Hello everyone,
1) Astrology works beyond all logic and reason. Period. I know it works. It is not surprising, because the universe also exists beyond all logic and reason.
2) Most of what is available in the name of astrology is pure rubbish. I agree with Nessus on this point. Many astrologers are dishing out more and more rubbish every day without knowing the truth of astrology. If they go on like this we can never know the truth of astrology. But existence is wise enough to produce some genius to bring the real truth of astrology in our time. (I will come to that later…)
3) So far there is no movement from astrologers to standardize astrology, as astrology is rife with so many inconsistencies & controversies in basic premises such as what is the correct birth time (is it the first breath, cutting of the umbilical cord, touching of the head on the ground, which is the meaning of the Sanskrit word Jataka (horoscope) or the coming of the head out of the mother’s body? This is apart from the fact that there are several zodiacs, the practitioners of which claim that only their zodiac is the correct one. That amounts to calling each other dishonest. Every astrologer knows that a man can have only one horoscope and only the zodiac which represents the correct horoscope can be the correct one.
4) Once the basic calculations and a few theories are learned, astrologers are interested only in making money. No one can blame them, it is only natural. There are professionals and there are scientists in any field of knowledge. But at least the professionals can be real professionals and try to standardize astrology. They don’t do it, because when money is coming, one loses interest in finding the truth. And professionals are not scientists. All truth-seeking is born out of discontent and non-complacency. Here, one is reminded of GK.Chesterton’s saying: ‘A man may cheat in his profession, but he will never cheat in his hobby’. It is unethical to practice astrology without resolving its inconsistencies first. Astrology badly needs standardization. Then only shall we be able to find out the working of astrology, or if it works at all.
Astrology is neither a science nor a pseudoscience. If by Science we mean knowledge/knowing then it is a science. But if used in the sense of a tool or instrument having applicability, (also called Shastra) then it is not a science. Because Shastra (i.e. technology, the application of science) is something we use or we can use, but if something uses us, or if we are used by something, then we cannot call it a science. Then it is called a truth or law. A truth or law can only be discovered, not invented. We use technology to apply scientific laws. In the case of astrology, whatever we did, whatever we do, and whatever we’ll be doing in the future are all predetermined. Hence we cannot use it to change destiny because whatever we are about to do are already predetermined. The only question remains is how much we can know of our own predetermination.
Astrology indicates towards an (apparently) invisible pattern, which is ordained (an order) by existence, which is beyond nationalities, traditions, religion and culture. But simply based on time (and place). i.e., people born in a particular month have the same type/pattern of characteristics which are similar, not the same. Aries, Taurus Gemini etc. All other patterns, also known as culture, nationalities, religion, temperaments etc, are man-made or almost man-made (Or accidental.)The patterns indicated by astrology is simply existential, universal,, and unique.
Why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.:
Because it is already evolved to its maximum. In fact, astrology has no evolution, it is a revelation. Revelation by Yogis of ancient times.
Sorry to say this, but the truth is that astrology is already perfect. But unfortunately we are not familiar with true astrology. Unfortunately the present world is not familiar with true astrology. (I will talk about what is true astrology and who brought it to light later).
No, I don’t believe in astrology. I know it to be true. I have glimpses of its working.
Any branch of knowledge is pseudo if it is based on belief.
If you believe in astrology, then it is pseudo. All belief is pseudo. A science is pseudo, if it is requires us to believe in it. We can make any science pseudo by believing in it.
”Quote: It's not a science because for it to be a science it should learn from its own mistakes and astrology does not. It didn't evolve because it's not a science.”
That is the fault of the so called professional astrologers, there has not been a scientist in astrology. Till now.
To know if astrology works
Method - 1 (How I came to know astrology’s workings and this is the method for the average person)
First read a very good sun sign book, I read ‘Linda Goodman’s sun signs’ which I still consider the best or ‘Russell Grant’s sun signs’ attentively and without prejudice or skepticism. Read the introduction well, before reading any of the chapters, and never (I repeat never) take the date range given as 21st March for Aries, 21st April for Taurus etc, instead take April 14th for Aries , May 15th for Taurus etc. This is the true reason why astrology is not believed in by half the world. You will get tremendous accuracy in realizing people’s true characteristics, (the types) just by doing this. Though this is not all, because this is the position of the sun only, you have to take in to account the position of the moon also, again never by the usually given date range i.e. by 21st march for Aries, but by April 14th for Aries, Which is known as Sidereal Zodiac. Here, I would like to say that I am not a Siderealist. For your information, there are two categories of astrologers known as Tropicalists and Siderealists. I am neither. I am only interested in solving the mysteries of life and making my life less miserable and more blissful.
Please try this method and let me know. You can also study famous personalities, because unlike one’s own friends or family members, who are known only to oneself, celebrities are known to most people.
I tried this (for months and years) and found the true reason (given above) why astrology appeared vague to people and wrote to a famous astrology organization and their reply was just like the reply of the famous Mulla Nasrudin.
The Mulla was made a magistrate. During his first case the plaintiff argued so persuasively that he exclaimed:
“I believe that you are right!”
The clerk of the court begged him to restrain himself, for the defendant had not been heard yet.
Nasrudin was so carried away by the eloquence of the defendant that he cried out as soon as the man had finished his evidence:
“I believe you are right!” said Nasrudin.
The clerk of the court could not allow this. “Your honor, they cannot both be right!”
“I believe your are right too” said Nasrudin.
Such a luke-warm attitude will never do.
MDT: Astrology uses the planets to predict effects on human destiny and behavior. In that respect, it was also a precursor to psychology that attempted to correlate human behavior as a function of birth date. It was fairly accurate at pointing out personality traits.
“Drude: In my opinion, it is just a bunch of fabricated, superstitious, redundant junk but that is just one opinion”
That is a healthy attitude of a non-believer or one who refuses to believe anything without experiencing the truthfulness of it.
“Mr voo:
‘The actual mechanism may never be deduced’. But fortunately somebody has done it recently. This is method 2, the scientific method, I will give details later.
John charles webb:
There is no logical or scientific argument that can prove any astrological truths; it is something that must be proved to the student. There is, of course, much quackery and craziness within any astrological community; however, there is also much to be valued.
There is much quackery and dishonesty in any astrological community, I agree.
The emboldened truth about astrology is that The New Testament is, actually, a deeply veiled astrological / astronomical allegory of the sun (son) and the 12 (apostles) constellations of the zodiac. The sun that 'dies' at sunset and 'rises from the dead the next morning. In brief, Christianity is an allegorical representation of the ancient astrological teachings regarding how to go about transcending the self-infatuated animal based ego consciousness and (believe it or not) how to attain ultimate liberation and eternal life. The primary astrological teachings come from Chaldea (pre-Egyptian) and from ancient Egypt. The astrological "Cliff Notes" would say astrology is about how to free the consciousness (soul, spirit, Christus, etc) from being crucified in the temporal realm of death upon matter (the body).
Western astrology is a corruption of true astrology and astrology, within the West, has been profaned and distorted mostly by Christianity which is trying to disguise its roots.
John, you have hit the nail on the head. Western astrology is an aberration (corruption) or deviation of true astrology and Christianity itself is full of astrological symbolism. Take for example, the concept of Father, Child and Holy ghost is nothing but the first, fifth and the ninth houses or signs. i.e. Aries, Leo and Sagittarius. Or Mars (Holy ghost, self), Sun (Son, Creativity) and Jupiter (Father), Christ is Aries (Ram, lamb) on the cross (Pisces). It was an attempt at locating the first point of (sidereal) Aries.
Just ask any cop about full moons. Solar and lunar cycles are the most obvious, the other cycles are usually more subtle but discernible.
Thanks for the info.
I will come to ‘galactic center’ later.
Physfan: because that is all we CAN see, not some mystical nonsense.
Physfan, there are certain things which the physical eyes cannot see but the inner eye can see. Patterns, for example. Or beauty. Artists see what ordinary people cannot see.
LLL: A theory is merely a thought
Everything the human brain has thought of is a theory, regardless of being true, false scientific or non scientific (even though i don’t think anything can be non-scientific)
where do you all think the term "luna[r]tic" came from? (lunatic is someone who is mad) lets separate the words
LLL, You are cool. Fantastic!
Happythestripper: Astrology,having existed for more than 3000 years and still continuing to evolve, can consider itself to be the elder sister of psychology. Both disciplines concern themselves with the psyche.
Yes, that is true, but this view is the western mind’s (scientific/analytical mind) view, but the eastern mind (intuitive/experiential mind) considers astrology as a yogic experience.
Steveo: The thing about astrology is it is trying to draw connections between things that do not have connections
Astrology is the elder sister to psychology, and it also was the beginning of astronomy.
(Francis bacon: men see connections where there is none, that is why astrology is believed in)
Steveo, I am avoiding quotations of people who haven’t experienced or couldn’t see the truth of astrology, because I know astrology works. If you are patient and persevering you can see the connections. Try to experiment with Method-1 given above.
I am often reminded of J.Krishnamurti’s words. ‘One man believes there is God, another man believes there is no God, both are believers.’
regards.
of kors it is a science, but not in a modern terms, because moderns science itself has changed a lot since Francis Bacon talked about modern method...
QUOTE
No, I don’t believe in astrology. I know it to be true. I have glimpses of its working.
Any branch of knowledge is pseudo if it is based on belief.
If you believe in astrology, then it is pseudo. All belief is pseudo. A science is pseudo, if it is requires us to believe in it. We can make any science pseudo by believing in it.
Any branch of knowledge is pseudo if it is based on belief.
If you believe in astrology, then it is pseudo. All belief is pseudo. A science is pseudo, if it is requires us to believe in it. We can make any science pseudo by believing in it.
The statement above is a nonsensical piece of rambling; "all belief is pseudo", come on get real.
Everyone who believes in astrology should have a look through the skeptic's dictionary (skepdic.com) and get a bit of realism back in their lives. I appreciate that a lot of people are inclined to 'magical thinking', that is linking things that have no relationship, but the fact you are at a science web site should predispose you to a bit of critical thinking.
Physfan
Astrology worked in ancient times, and will work again when the theory behind it ( I would call it not biogravitational , but just gravitational = rotational= Coriolis force ) will be clarified.
The reason astrology does not work is the shift vs. stars Earth crust has made during Cascadia earthquake, may be also earlier.This shift went unnoticed by astrologers as they did not have the theory.
In the end, astrology will prove to be the most important science as it deal with cosmic CLOCK.
We are literally tied to planets -gods and all many visible stars by real material neutrino strings. As are all things on earth. Via lattice of strings. Like manekens. But we have some freedom of choice - not WHEN ( as clock is ticking independent from us) , but WHAT within a limited set of choices.
In places like Atlantis and before, astrology was THE SCIENCE. Old civilizations like Maya played with remains of that knowledge. Today even that does not exist.
The reason astrology does not work is the shift vs. stars Earth crust has made during Cascadia earthquake, may be also earlier.This shift went unnoticed by astrologers as they did not have the theory.
In the end, astrology will prove to be the most important science as it deal with cosmic CLOCK.
We are literally tied to planets -gods and all many visible stars by real material neutrino strings. As are all things on earth. Via lattice of strings. Like manekens. But we have some freedom of choice - not WHEN ( as clock is ticking independent from us) , but WHAT within a limited set of choices.
In places like Atlantis and before, astrology was THE SCIENCE. Old civilizations like Maya played with remains of that knowledge. Today even that does not exist.
QUOTE (Ivars+Nov 6 2006, 11:20 PM)
Astrology worked in ancient times, and will work again when the theory behind it ( I would call it not biogravitational , but just gravitational = rotational= Coriolis force ) will be clarified.
***
In the end, astrology will prove to be the most important science as it deal with cosmic CLOCK.
...
"But I've studied the subject."
Newton to Boyl
***
In the end, astrology will prove to be the most important science as it deal with cosmic CLOCK.
...
"But I've studied the subject."
Newton to Boyl
QUOTE (Mr.E+Aug 9 2006, 06:30 AM)
Astrology is neither a science nor a pseudoscience. If by Science we mean knowledge/knowing then it is a science. But if used in the sense of a tool or instrument having applicability, (also called Shastra) then it is not a science. Because Shastra (i.e. technology, the application of science) is something we use or we can use, but if something uses us, or if we are used by something, then we cannot call it a science.
***********************************************
Then it is called a truth or law. A truth or law can only be discovered, not invented. We use technology to apply scientific laws. In the case of astrology, whatever we did, whatever we do, and whatever we’ll be doing in the future are all predetermined.
Hence we cannot use it to change destiny because whatever we are about to do are already predetermined. The only question remains is how much we can know of our own predetermination.
Astrology indicates towards an (apparently) invisible pattern, which is ordained (an order) by existence, which is beyond nationalities, traditions, religion and culture. But simply based on time (and place). i.e., people born in a particular month have the same type/pattern of characteristics which are similar, not the same. Aries, Taurus Gemini etc. All other patterns, also known as culture, nationalities, religion, temperaments etc, are man-made or almost man-made (Or accidental.)The patterns indicated by astrology is simply existential, universal,, and unique.
Why it is not evolved like other branches of science like physics or chemistry.:
Because it is already evolved to its maximum. In fact, astrology has no evolution, it is a revelation. Revelation by Yogis of ancient times.
Sorry to say this, but the truth is that astrology is already perfect. But unfortunately we are not familiar with true astrology. Unfortunately the present world is not familiar with true astrology. (I will talk about what is true astrology and who brought it to light later).
No, I don’t believe in astrology. I know it to be true. I have glimpses of its working.
Any branch of knowledge is pseudo if it is based on belief.
If you believe in astrology, then it is pseudo. All belief is pseudo. A science is pseudo, if it is requires us to believe in it. We can make any science pseudo by believing in it.
”Quote: It's not a science because for it to be a science it should learn from its own mistakes and astrology does not. It didn't evolve because it's not a science.”
That is the fault of the so called professional astrologers, there has not been a scientist in astrology. Till now.
I dont understand how it is you, a believer say that it (astrological charting work)cannot be appilied. And can't be called a Science.Of course it is appilied to the life and used in the context that with a compatability chart one can change behaviors to suit the other individuals nuances (for lack of a better thought form now) and to suit their "psyche" and behavioring ~ which will eventually cause a better relationship to come about. Is that not applicable enough ?
************************************************************
The truth of Astrology is flexable and never professes to be a static science.
If you were unable to apply the lessons and make changes based on ths laws then and only then could one call it predestiny. It is merely the patterns of the solar system at the time you determined you would integrate to earth again and in which parental body.
Nothing ever says that as a Science or Truth or Law it can not be worked in a thousand differing ways.
*****************************************************************
I completly have to disagree that it has been discovered enough in todays age to be said to have reached maximum potential...this is an outrageous claim. How can it have evolved far enough with out being used exploited and streched. If the majority poo poo's it. How can you say we have studied all it's mechanisms????
Astrology began as entertainment for a pharaoh about five thousand years and the stars are not now in positions claimed for them. Astrology requires that the 12 constellations of the zodiac be in the "House of the Sun" for about 30 days at a time. Instead there are 13 constellations (Ophiuchus) which are in the House of the Sun from 6 - 47 days. Constellations are only a line of sight grouping and some stars can be tens or hundreds of light years away and others thousands or tens of thousands of light years away.
A few decades back, a group sent out 1600 personal horoscopes to people totally at random throughout America. They got many letters telling them how accurate the horoscopes had been. It was later revealed that these people who had been born at all times and days throughout the year had all received the same personal horoscope of a killer on death row.
There are now over six billion people in the world. If a personal horoscope is accurate to within an hour, that means that the same personal horoscope will fit about 68,500 people throughout the world. It is said that a mosquito flying around the birth room will have more effect on a baby than all the stars in the sky (apart from the Sun).
A few decades back, a group sent out 1600 personal horoscopes to people totally at random throughout America. They got many letters telling them how accurate the horoscopes had been. It was later revealed that these people who had been born at all times and days throughout the year had all received the same personal horoscope of a killer on death row.
There are now over six billion people in the world. If a personal horoscope is accurate to within an hour, that means that the same personal horoscope will fit about 68,500 people throughout the world. It is said that a mosquito flying around the birth room will have more effect on a baby than all the stars in the sky (apart from the Sun).
QUOTE
It is said that a mosquito flying around the birth room will have more effect on a baby than all the stars in the sky (apart from the Sun).
Unless one of those stars supernovas and sends out a gamma ray burst!
QUOTE
A few decades back, a group sent out 1600 personal horoscopes to people totally at random throughout America. They got many letters telling them how accurate the horoscopes had been. It was later revealed that these people who had been born at all times and days throughout the year had all received the same personal horoscope of a killer on death row.
Yet this information will not shift their belief; it fascinates me that the human race can be so advanced yet still have adherents to this fairy tale nonsense.
Physfan
Hi everyone!
“In spirituality, truth is the only virtue”
I think it is better to be superstitious than to be prejudiced. One is the bat (everything upside down) and the other is the ostrich (which refuses to face the truth).
I sincerely hope that a few people try the Method-1 I described in my previous posting before condemning astrology. Just give it a try. You have nothing to lose. If you sincerely don’t see any truth in the Method-1, there are some scientific papers written by Mr. Chandrahari in India, regarding the discovery of True Astrology and which have been published in the Indian Journal of History of Sciences by the INA (Indian National science Academy). Please read them-which is Method-2 and there are only 2 methods as far as I know. There could be other methods, perhaps. Mr. Chandrahari’s papers are the most scientific and mathematical exposition of astrology.
(For the exact dates on which the Real/True Zodiac signs begin and end, you will have to refer to the Sidereal almanac. I will try to get that data from him)
I think it is quite unscientific- against scientific spirit- to criticize something without studying it. It is quite OK (in fact, marvelous) to see some truth in something without studying it. It is like this…you have seen beauty in a flower and someone else is denying that there is no such thing as beauty, but only the flower. It is a matter of level of perception of truth. It is the duty of the scientist to explain the reasons behind a truth and not to deny that there is no possibility for such a truth. Remember Edison denied the possibility of AC which was suggested by his assistant Tesla. Every one knows that present day science is in its infant’s stage. Remember also what Isaac Newton said, that he was only a child playing with a few pebbles on the vast shores/sea of knowledge.
Physfan, GETTING REAL is not a matter of choice or effort. The most what one can do is to observe, is to be aware. I was aware that I was unrealistic even when I was a kid, the reason for which I found later to be my being born under strong Piscean influence. I have some major planets in the sign Pisces in my natal chart. That did not prevent me from coming in to contact with some truths of existence. Reality varies (is different) according to persons, or creatures, but truth never changes. (Truths of existence)
Can you suggest any other method for ‘getting real’ other than reading sites like skepdic.com, which despite my sincere efforts failed to show me the light.
It might have appeared to you that I had rambled, Physfan, but please look up the meaning of the word ‘belief’ and ‘knowledge’ and try to see the difference. All belief is pseudo, only knowing or knowledge is real. Read J.Krishnamurti if you want to know more about it (‘Freedom from the known’ by him).
After reading skepdic.com and your postings I have a feeling, Physfan, that you too have some wishful thinking for the non-working of astrology and the so-called superstitious subjects. You ought to study any of these subjects before you subject them to your condemnation.
If you don’t have time to study astrology, you can always ask Mr.Chandrahari any questions you may have regarding astrology. I am sure he will be happy to reply provided you are sincere and not sarcastic.
Thanks anyway for pointing me to the skepdic.com
The site contains some very good observations regarding errors in human thinking and understanding-What one should always guard against. But the site never attempted to explain intuition or intuitive perceptions which half of the world possess (women).we have seen only one side of the coin. The site also contains a lot of erroneous info. Fortunately the site didn’t label intuition as nonsense.
The site also got some wrong info. on some major subjects like Ayurveda and its relation with Maharshi Mahesh yogi. The origin and development of Ayurveda has nothing to do with Mahesh Yogi, who may be a propagator of Ayurveda in the western world. You should have read Osho’s opinion on Maharshi Mahesh yogi. The very idea of surgery was invented by Shusrutha, an ancient sage of Ayurveda. He also invented many tools of surgery. There are many Ayurvedic and Homoepathic medical colleges recognized by many governments as is in India. In India there are all these three types of medicine practiced – Modern medicine, Ayurveda and Homeopathy. Some doctors even know two or more Health systems. If Homeopathic medicines have no effect and homeopaths can cure even skeptics, why not reckon it as a super/supra science? Modern day science is in its infant’s stage. We have no idea what the science of the future will be, except our imaginations.
"You shouldn't dismiss as incredible the possibility that a long enough search might reveal a golden grain of truth in astrological superstition." -- Johannes Kepler
Thanks a lot for directing me to this quote found in astrology page of skepdic.com. I was reminded of Madam Curie.
Tikay,
It is a subtle point- whether we can use/we are using what we know or not. Whether we are forced to use what we know or not. We know we have no choice when we breathe. Any attempt to stop it will cause suffocation and finally death. Breathing is an involuntary action. We have no choice. We have no choice as far as many bodily activities are concerned. We can prolong certain activities but only up to a short period. Other wise we will die. But we think that for everything else other than bodily actions we have a choice. Not so. Can you stop thought process? How long can you stop thought ? only as long as you can stop your breathing. And you know what? Thought is breath. And do you know that our breath is directly connected with our thought process and in astrology, the zodiac is divided in to 21600 minutes of arc, which is the number of breaths a human being takes in a day- and astrology is the basis of Yoga Shastra and vice versa. Reference- Mr.Chandrahari’s paper ‘Time structure of breathing.’
When someone asked Osho (Bhagwan Shri.Rajneesh) whether our lives are predestined or not?
He replied “This is not a personal problem, it is a philosophical question. Our lives are both predestined and they are not. Both yes and no. And both answers are true for all questions about life.”
He also said: ‘In the name of astrology, ninety-nine percent of astrologers only bluff’.
For his detailed explanation on this, read his work ‘Hidden Mysteries’. All his books on ‘Yoga’ also are marvelous.
Previously I always thought that only one thing is possible in the universe. Either fate or free will. But never both. But as the universe itself exists against (beyond is more correct, I think) all logic and reason, now what Osho said seemed more possible/plausible.
I am still reading more of Osho. Renowned as an enlightened master, he seemed to know these things more intimately and precisely.
If I come to know/experience more about astrology’s workings and its role in life, I will let you know. I try to talk only what I have personally realized as true and not based on any guess or imagination.
Ivars,
For your information, astrology is Yoga Shastra, discovered by ancient yogis of India.
Astrology was not originated in Babylonia or Chaldea as is usually understood. But in India, more likely in Kerala, a state of India. Courtesy-findings of Mr.Chandrahari……….
I am not an astrologer, nor am I interested in converting or convincing anybody by argument of the working of astrology, but I really care for those (that is why I post this) who want to know the truth of astrology or the mysteries of existence/self.
Two quotes of Oscar Wilde I like:
“skepticism is the beginning of faith”
“It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue-Oscar Wilde”
I don’t have enough time to write everyday, but I will read all the postings and reply accordingly.
Thanks for reading…
Bye for now...
“In spirituality, truth is the only virtue”
I think it is better to be superstitious than to be prejudiced. One is the bat (everything upside down) and the other is the ostrich (which refuses to face the truth).
I sincerely hope that a few people try the Method-1 I described in my previous posting before condemning astrology. Just give it a try. You have nothing to lose. If you sincerely don’t see any truth in the Method-1, there are some scientific papers written by Mr. Chandrahari in India, regarding the discovery of True Astrology and which have been published in the Indian Journal of History of Sciences by the INA (Indian National science Academy). Please read them-which is Method-2 and there are only 2 methods as far as I know. There could be other methods, perhaps. Mr. Chandrahari’s papers are the most scientific and mathematical exposition of astrology.
(For the exact dates on which the Real/True Zodiac signs begin and end, you will have to refer to the Sidereal almanac. I will try to get that data from him)
I think it is quite unscientific- against scientific spirit- to criticize something without studying it. It is quite OK (in fact, marvelous) to see some truth in something without studying it. It is like this…you have seen beauty in a flower and someone else is denying that there is no such thing as beauty, but only the flower. It is a matter of level of perception of truth. It is the duty of the scientist to explain the reasons behind a truth and not to deny that there is no possibility for such a truth. Remember Edison denied the possibility of AC which was suggested by his assistant Tesla. Every one knows that present day science is in its infant’s stage. Remember also what Isaac Newton said, that he was only a child playing with a few pebbles on the vast shores/sea of knowledge.
Physfan, GETTING REAL is not a matter of choice or effort. The most what one can do is to observe, is to be aware. I was aware that I was unrealistic even when I was a kid, the reason for which I found later to be my being born under strong Piscean influence. I have some major planets in the sign Pisces in my natal chart. That did not prevent me from coming in to contact with some truths of existence. Reality varies (is different) according to persons, or creatures, but truth never changes. (Truths of existence)
Can you suggest any other method for ‘getting real’ other than reading sites like skepdic.com, which despite my sincere efforts failed to show me the light.
It might have appeared to you that I had rambled, Physfan, but please look up the meaning of the word ‘belief’ and ‘knowledge’ and try to see the difference. All belief is pseudo, only knowing or knowledge is real. Read J.Krishnamurti if you want to know more about it (‘Freedom from the known’ by him).
After reading skepdic.com and your postings I have a feeling, Physfan, that you too have some wishful thinking for the non-working of astrology and the so-called superstitious subjects. You ought to study any of these subjects before you subject them to your condemnation.
If you don’t have time to study astrology, you can always ask Mr.Chandrahari any questions you may have regarding astrology. I am sure he will be happy to reply provided you are sincere and not sarcastic.
Thanks anyway for pointing me to the skepdic.com
The site contains some very good observations regarding errors in human thinking and understanding-What one should always guard against. But the site never attempted to explain intuition or intuitive perceptions which half of the world possess (women).we have seen only one side of the coin. The site also contains a lot of erroneous info. Fortunately the site didn’t label intuition as nonsense.
The site also got some wrong info. on some major subjects like Ayurveda and its relation with Maharshi Mahesh yogi. The origin and development of Ayurveda has nothing to do with Mahesh Yogi, who may be a propagator of Ayurveda in the western world. You should have read Osho’s opinion on Maharshi Mahesh yogi. The very idea of surgery was invented by Shusrutha, an ancient sage of Ayurveda. He also invented many tools of surgery. There are many Ayurvedic and Homoepathic medical colleges recognized by many governments as is in India. In India there are all these three types of medicine practiced – Modern medicine, Ayurveda and Homeopathy. Some doctors even know two or more Health systems. If Homeopathic medicines have no effect and homeopaths can cure even skeptics, why not reckon it as a super/supra science? Modern day science is in its infant’s stage. We have no idea what the science of the future will be, except our imaginations.
"You shouldn't dismiss as incredible the possibility that a long enough search might reveal a golden grain of truth in astrological superstition." -- Johannes Kepler
Thanks a lot for directing me to this quote found in astrology page of skepdic.com. I was reminded of Madam Curie.
Tikay,
It is a subtle point- whether we can use/we are using what we know or not. Whether we are forced to use what we know or not. We know we have no choice when we breathe. Any attempt to stop it will cause suffocation and finally death. Breathing is an involuntary action. We have no choice. We have no choice as far as many bodily activities are concerned. We can prolong certain activities but only up to a short period. Other wise we will die. But we think that for everything else other than bodily actions we have a choice. Not so. Can you stop thought process? How long can you stop thought ? only as long as you can stop your breathing. And you know what? Thought is breath. And do you know that our breath is directly connected with our thought process and in astrology, the zodiac is divided in to 21600 minutes of arc, which is the number of breaths a human being takes in a day- and astrology is the basis of Yoga Shastra and vice versa. Reference- Mr.Chandrahari’s paper ‘Time structure of breathing.’
When someone asked Osho (Bhagwan Shri.Rajneesh) whether our lives are predestined or not?
He replied “This is not a personal problem, it is a philosophical question. Our lives are both predestined and they are not. Both yes and no. And both answers are true for all questions about life.”
He also said: ‘In the name of astrology, ninety-nine percent of astrologers only bluff’.
For his detailed explanation on this, read his work ‘Hidden Mysteries’. All his books on ‘Yoga’ also are marvelous.
Previously I always thought that only one thing is possible in the universe. Either fate or free will. But never both. But as the universe itself exists against (beyond is more correct, I think) all logic and reason, now what Osho said seemed more possible/plausible.
I am still reading more of Osho. Renowned as an enlightened master, he seemed to know these things more intimately and precisely.
If I come to know/experience more about astrology’s workings and its role in life, I will let you know. I try to talk only what I have personally realized as true and not based on any guess or imagination.
Ivars,
For your information, astrology is Yoga Shastra, discovered by ancient yogis of India.
Astrology was not originated in Babylonia or Chaldea as is usually understood. But in India, more likely in Kerala, a state of India. Courtesy-findings of Mr.Chandrahari……….
I am not an astrologer, nor am I interested in converting or convincing anybody by argument of the working of astrology, but I really care for those (that is why I post this) who want to know the truth of astrology or the mysteries of existence/self.
Two quotes of Oscar Wilde I like:
“skepticism is the beginning of faith”
“It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue-Oscar Wilde”
I don’t have enough time to write everyday, but I will read all the postings and reply accordingly.
Thanks for reading…
Bye for now...
QUOTE
He replied “This is not a personal problem, it is a philosophical question. Our lives are both predestined and they are not. Both yes and no. And both answers are true for all questions about life.”
Is not this obvious to everyone? 50% free will is maximum humanity can get; single individual has even less freedom if he wants to GROW.
Net, humanity has to grow (get more complex) , or it will miss the duty it has and disappear. Does it have a choice to disappear? In principle, yes.
To survive, humanity has to behave within constraints which are imposed by its very existence, laws of nature but it does not mean 100% predestination. The more developed organism is, the more free will it has, but never >50%.
Mr. E- thank You for pointing to some good sources. There is so much scrap around , Maya, that it takes months to find something that leads closer to THE KNOWLEDGE.
Physfan. I think that because many of the population only have a limited education and have never bothered to advance it, they take most of their teachings on faith without question.
Religion is the prime example. Ask any religionist for proof of their religion and they have none, and become agitated if pursued on the matter. Other questioning shows that most religionists only have a poor knowledge of the religion which they have taken on faith and sometimes based their life on. It does not occur to a fanatic that the religion he/she supports so strongly is an accident of birth. Had Bin Laden been born to a christian family, in a christian country, he would probably be just as strong a christian as he is now as strong a muslim. That is the sad truth about such unsupported beliefs.
Religion is the prime example. Ask any religionist for proof of their religion and they have none, and become agitated if pursued on the matter. Other questioning shows that most religionists only have a poor knowledge of the religion which they have taken on faith and sometimes based their life on. It does not occur to a fanatic that the religion he/she supports so strongly is an accident of birth. Had Bin Laden been born to a christian family, in a christian country, he would probably be just as strong a christian as he is now as strong a muslim. That is the sad truth about such unsupported beliefs.
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