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onebarron31707
Was anybody present at the MIT CF Colloquium? What did you make of Prof Hagelsteins comment regarding IESI? Could this be the real deal?
oomchu
could you please elaborate for those of us that weren't there?
onebarron

Professor Peter Hagelstein of MIT informed the audience that he had reason to believe that a commercial cold fusion device would be marketed within a year by a group out of Edmonton, Canada. They are developing their cold fusion technology with an American company known as Innovative Energy Solutions, Inc. (http://www.iesiusa.com/ ).
Bearded Clem
Could you tell me if there is a transcript of this seminar? or at least give more information on it? I have read a lot about how world oil production is at its peak and will now sharply drop off just as demand is rising exponentially and it has me very concerned for the future.

I've been keeping an eye on IESI since I read another cold fusion thread on these boards and recently read on their website that the 2 chief scientists of IESI have come here to Edmonton where I live and I am very interested to find some unbiased proof that what they claim is real because if it is, it will be the breakthrough we need to survive the 21st century.

If anyone is interested, here is the text form of a .pdf you can download of the IESI website. It's a little vague for a skeptic like me but compelling none the less.

QUOTE
Whitepaper On Plasma Heat and Hydrogen Generator

By Dr. Norman L. Arrison

iESi has acquired the most significant technology of the 21st century through Dr. Hyunik Yang and his team from around the world. Their technology draws on the energy of the atom and converts that energy into useful energy in the form of heat in one device and the splitting of the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen in another device. Dr. Yang's team has varied in size and composition over a ten year period of research. The consistent aspect of the team has been their international stature and dedication to hard work under the leadership of Dr. Hyunik Yang. Dr. Hyunik Yang is 47 years of age and has a distinguished record beginning with his B.Sc. in Engineering from Korea followed by his Ph.D. and post doctorate degrees at Columbia University in New York. He then had a successful career with Hyundai where he was contracted out to NASA and where he won the Eastman Kodak Award for the best paper and an ASME conference. Dr. Yang then went to Russia where he became a member of the Russian Academy of Science. With the distinguished scientists Dr. Yang had worked with, they decided to build a unit to produce power for mankind based on the energy in the atom.

The approach they used was brilliant. They used resonate harmonic frequencies to expose the nuclei of atoms so they could put the nuclei together to obtain the energy from the fused product. Their system is inexpensive, safe, and easy to operate and construct. The first plasma device will produce heat by taking water and converting it to steam. This device is expected to be working by late 2004 and an early prototype is already functioning. the early prototype produces 14 times the energy put into it and the final product is expected to produce 200 times the energy going into the unit. The second plasma device is expected in early 2005 and it will use it's energy to split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen. This device is already working in an old prototype which produces the hydrogen and oxygen and immediately recombines the two in a hot hydrogen and oxygen flame. The old hydrogen-oxygen device was the first proof that the team had successfully tapped the energy of the atom. It only produced 50% more energy out than went into the device but showed that the energy of the atom was being drawn upon.

iESi got control of this techology through the special relationsip which exists between Dr. [removed] and Mr. [removed] the founder of iESi. Mr. [removed] is married to a Korean attorney and through her got to know of Dr. [removed]'s work. Mr. [removed] was so fascinated with the techology that he helped Dr. Yang with his funding which up to that time had been carried by Dr. [removed] and his immediate family. Because of Mr. [removed]'s assistance for Dr. Yang's work, a close relationship blossomed which has resulted in the formation of iESi as it exists today. We at iESi feel very proud that we are the ones bringing this historical changing technology to the world. Plasma heat generation alone guarantees that the cost of electricity will be stable for all mankind. The hydrogen and oxygen producing technology guarantees a clean planet for humanity. the result is that iESi should be the most significant company of the 21st century.
Phantom
Since the MIT CF Colloquium, both Professor Peter Hagelstein and Martin Fleischmann have personally witnessed this cold fusion technology in the facility in Edmonton where IESI has their scientists sequestered. These two men are providing the unbiased proof the world needs that what they claim at IESI is true. But [removed] at IESI is in legal trouble with the securities authorities in Alberta, so he's being forced out of the company by their investors, which can only help the company. This [removed] character is an idiot.
andrusha
Does anyone have any hard information about IESI's claims?


surf-actant
I hate to possibly inject a bit of sourness here, but did the phrase "resonate harmonic frequencies" set any bells off (sorry..) in anybody else's head? Isn't that the exact same apporach, and even phraseology, that Keanu Reeves used in his CF movie about a decade ago? Seems too good to be true.

Don't get me wrong, I would be *** jacked an stoked about this as anyone, and I am pulling for it like crazy, but my hard-won cynicism is just that, hard-won.

sur-actant
Observer
I agree, there is no reason to jump for joy over these iESi developments. We've been down this path many many times before in alternative energy and science. Wild claims are plentiful in these fields, actaual working products are much rarer, and products that revolutionize the world almost never materialize.

As a proponent of cold fusion and someone who thinks there is indeed a growing body of evidence that indicates that cold fusion is real, I am hopeful that iESi will buck the trend and this will be the real deal this time around. But, history is not on their side, so I'll wait until iESi are publicly showing technology that is actually functioning the way they claim it will function.

Certainly, as reports dribble in that confirm iESi is legit, it is encouraging, but we'll have to wait for a real demonstration. It is rather exciting.

More Observations
I think 2006 will be the year Cold Fusion comes back in a major way. Perhaps, iESi will have to hasten their plans if public pressure mounts (what will happen if the News and Mail in Canada does a story about iESi's 6 times to 20 times overunity claims? major media will soon be all over the story). But, I'd guess things are coming together for 2006 to be the year cold fusion reemerges.
jj
I definitely think the year 2150 will be the year of cold fusion. Put your money into SonoFusion.
extrasense
QUOTE (jj+Jul 15 2005, 11:06 AM)
I definitely think the year 2150 will be the year of cold fusion. Put your money into SonoFusion.

all you need to know, it is in Canada.
Which has never produced anything of substance in science rolleyes.gif

ES
a_ht
QUOTE (extrasense+Jul 15 2005, 12:12 PM)
QUOTE (jj+Jul 15 2005, 11:06 AM)
I definitely think the year 2150 will be the year of cold fusion.  Put your money into SonoFusion.

all you need to know, it is in Canada.
Which has never produced anything of substance in science rolleyes.gif

ES

where do you think the Canadian Arm comes from? I can provide you with hints if you have difficulties answering the question.
a_ht
And a few more Canadian contributions to science and technology

Top Ten Canadian scientists who have won the Nobel Prize:

Sid Altman,
Nobel Chemistry 1989 for Catalytic RNA

Sir Frederick Banting,
Nobel Medicine 1923 for Discovering Insulin

Bert Brockhouse,
Nobel Physics 1994 for Condensed Matter

Gerhard Herzberg,
Nobel Chemistry 1971 for Molecular Spectroscopy

David Hubel,
Nobel Medicine 1981 for Mapping the Visual Cortex

Rudolph Marcus,
Nobel Chemistry 1992 for Electron Transfer Reactions (e.g.: Rust)

John Polanyi,
Nobel Chemistry 1986 for Chemi-
luminescence

Michael Smith,
Nobel Chemistry 1993 for Site-Based Mutagenesis

Henry Taube,
Nobel Chemistry 1983 for Electron Transfer Reactions

Richard Taylor,
Nobel Physics 1990 for verifying the Quark Theory
BC
QUOTE
all you need to know, it is in Canada.
Which has never produced anything of substance in science


I sincerely hope you were joking ES because if you were serious, it only shows your ignorance and misguided belief in your own US propaganda. Many technologies america takes credit for were simply hijacked like nuclear fission and rocketry taken from captured German scientists after ww2.

Anyway, now that Bush has officially changed the country's name to Jesusland and outlawed stem cell research and supports creationism over evolution, you can expect your progress in science to take a nosedive.

Please apologize for the rude comment so the thread can get back on topic.
J.A. Wensveen
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/....Xu.fusion.html

Sounds like another experiment that promises consumer level Fusion.

sute


They don't BC , apologize for what ever idiotic views they have for others.

If they just see their figures and numbers in their universities how weak they are in science & technologies.
Their giant corporations could not have moved to ofshore if they have brilliant brains.

Sute.
Guest
QUOTE (oomchu+Jun 11 2005, 03:18 AM)
I know I am going to regret sending this but I am sure you will want to take a shot at me and I am a big target, not waist wise now, still 33 inches but my is only IQ = 0.0000000197 x 10^-3, bpc (cells of gray matter or lack of).

I like this too.
Matty
QUOTE (extrasense+Jul 15 2005, 12:12 PM)
QUOTE (jj+Jul 15 2005, 11:06 AM)
I definitely think the year 2150 will be the year of cold fusion.  Put your money into SonoFusion.

all you need to know, it is in Canada.
Which has never produced anything of substance in science rolleyes.gif

ES

Ever talk on the telephone? (Don't even need to answer there...)

*cough*Canadian Invention*cough*

And in the non-science/technology field we invented basketball too so there! tongue.gif

Anyways, on topic, I think we'll see Cold Fusion efficient prototypes emerge in no less than 5 or 10 years from now. All technologies need research, debugging, and development to reach their full potential.
Butch
QUOTE (BC+Jul 17 2005, 07:25 PM)
 


Anyway, now that  Bush has officially changed the country's name to Jesusland and outlawed stem cell research and supports creationism over evolution, you can expect your progress in science to take a nosedive.

Please apologize for the rude comment so the thread can get back on topic.



TYPICAL BS;

The name is still America
Bush did NOT outlaw stem cell research, and;
BOTH, creation AND evolution are taught in most school systems.


Note: No apology necessary for complete, utter, babbling ignorance.


lol

But yes, to say that "nothing" came from CA is also rather silly.


.
Justavian
QUOTE
BOTH, creation AND evolution are taught in most school systems.


Which is, of course, perposterous and disgusting. The thought of our children being taught "intelligent design" makes me want to vomit. I mean that quite literally, i feel sick to my stomach when i think about that. Saying "god did it" creates more questions than it answers, and doesn't allow us to make predictions. If we teach ID, does that mean kids can use "and god worked a miracle" for steps in their mathematical proofs?

Cold Fusion 101: a. Make dueterated acetone. b. Hit it with bursts of Neutrons. c. Pray. In 20 millisecond bursts. Prayer must be ultra-accurate to cause the approrpriate cavitation in the acetone. Worship-shielding should be set up around the acetone container, preventing the surrounding area from being cavitated. d) Profit.

I WANT to support Bush, but he's makin' it real hard with his approach to the scientific world.

Anyway, enough of my rant! Does anyone know how close to break-even they are using the deuterated acetone sono-fusion method? I read that they thought they could just scale up the device to make it break even, but how likely is that? Shouldn't they be able to do calculations to get a good estimate?
Justavian
Wait a second - that PDF talks about the first device being ready in 2004, and the second would be available in early 2005. So where's the demonstration?
Steveo
Yeah, I read that sono fusion thing to..... I think one of the problems is, that no one really understands regular sonoluminesence as it is now (I know this because it was one of the options for my 3rd year undergraduate lab, and one of the selling points was "no one knows what it is.....maybe you can actually do something no one else has done before" Then I saw the nice pressure gradient PDE's and said "screw this")
And for who ever was saying nothing scientific has come out of Canada, as someone working now doing research at the university of alberta, I was shocked to hear that a cold fusion device was coming out of Edmonton. All anyone is talking about here is the single molecule transistor made and tested at room temperature that has a single electron as its current source, and controlled not by some bias voltage, but a single charged atom nearby. That sounds pretty big to me considering any other single molecule transistor before it has been done at low temp and needed an actual bias voltage to control its switching.
OOPS, but Canada can't do anything. And the National Institute for Nanotechnology (I am definately biased, thats where I work) is only one of the top 5 Nanoscale science research facilities in the world - or will be once the 80 million dollar facility is finished, and uses the Edmonton Nanofab, which is equivalent to any of the American 'fabs like the ones in Stanford etc....
Very ignorant comment, thats for sure.
Sorry for my rant considering I am a first time poster for this thread.

But hey, since I am actually in Edmonton I will see if I can dig up some more info on this cold fusion.

Cheers eh!
Steveo
Anyone know the names of the scientists working on this in Edmonton? That would be a huge help to me in trying to find out info.
Rollie Hanna
2005 is not probably the year. In the past 60 years the scientists have labored to find the best methods for simple uranium enrichment .. and all efforts are hugely expensive ...

With extraction and chemical processes, u235 and pu236 production is a prehistoric approach .. well, compared to what we will have in 50 years (if we survive) ... fact is, it is all about neutrons and how we deal with them.

Cold (hah) fusion is all about coaxing neutrons ..

All the pieces fall in place if we have an understanding of the neutron ....

Which will, unfortunately, involve a bit of "outside the box" thinking.
Our buddies the neutrons live in more than one world ...
we have to think about the duality of the life and times of the neutron and get used to the fact that it has a life outside our dimension..

The answer may be under our noses .. should we endeavour to harness the joy of the way the sun works on a scale we can use -

The players will be fields, waves, protons (in small quantities), and He. Not to mention an understanding of the dual life our beloved neutron thrives on.

lengould
QUOTE
If we teach ID, does that mean kids can use "and god worked a miracle" for steps in their mathematical proofs?


I thought that was already the case. Every american applicant to our {3 out of five world-leading} Canuk fuel cell research companies puts it on their screening tests. Hmmm, guess that explains it. Better call those guys down at Spheral Solar and AECL as well. Wouldn't want all the medical radiation products used in the US to be handled by that type. And Stuart Electrolysis, the world leader in hydrogen electrolysis, or SHEC labs, or those guys over testing their solar+zinc oxide --> hydrogen system in Isreal. man, somebody better make a list. cool.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (Justavian+Aug 4 2005, 09:47 PM)
QUOTE
BOTH, creation AND evolution are taught in most school systems.


Which is, of course, perposterous and disgusting. The thought of our children being taught "intelligent design" makes me want to vomit. I mean that quite literally, i feel sick to my stomach when i think about that. Saying "god did it" creates more questions than it answers, and doesn't allow us to make predictions. If we teach ID, does that mean kids can use "and god worked a miracle" for steps in their mathematical proofs?
...

I WANT to support Bush, but he's makin' it real hard with his approach to the scientific world.


Ah, they are not TEACHING Intelligent Design, they are teaching that there is a CONTROVERSY between supporters of ID and supporters of the theory of Evolution.

This gets into discussing what it means when Darwinism is referred to as a THEORY.

This is CRUCIAL to educating our children because the common usage for the term "theory" is quite different than the scientific one. What comes out of this is that while many people might BELIEVE in ID, it does not merit the scientific status of a theory.

As Bush has said, we can't ignore the fact that ID is a widely held BELIEF and if we don't educate our children on the issue then they are indeed prone to being swayed by the quite pursasive purveyors of ID.

Face it, the exquisite specialization that has come from hundreds of millions of years of evolution DOES make it easy for ID supporters to argue their case and only with knowledge of the difference between a belief based solution vs a scientific based solution will our children be able to dismiss their arguments.

Arthur
NidStyles
QUOTE (BC+Jul 17 2005, 07:25 PM)
you can expect your progress in science to take a nosedive.

Shut up. You're going to make me cry here, dashing my hopes to have a decent carreer in this field here in Jesusland. I'll have to move to Europe just to go to grad school, or take all kinds of ID classes, because I'm so far behind in my religion courses. sad.gif
your Name
QUOTE (Matty+Jul 25 2005, 07:32 AM)
QUOTE (extrasense+Jul 15 2005, 12:12 PM)
QUOTE (jj+Jul 15 2005, 11:06 AM)
I definitely think the year 2150 will be the year of cold fusion.  Put your money into SonoFusion.

all you need to know, it is in Canada.
Which has never produced anything of substance in science rolleyes.gif

ES

Ever talk on the telephone? (Don't even need to answer there...)

*cough*Canadian Invention*cough*

And in the non-science/technology field we invented basketball too so there! tongue.gif

Anyways, on topic, I think we'll see Cold Fusion efficient prototypes emerge in no less than 5 or 10 years from now. All technologies need research, debugging, and development to reach their full potential.

Nothing against Canada or anything, but Bell came to Boston, USA before inventing the telephone. He designed a device in Brantford, Ontario that could transmit music via electricity over a distance, but it was not capable of transferring voice. tongue.gif
iESi shareholder
I have personally seen iESi's demonstration cold fusion unit. I believe they have the real deal. There were alot smarter people than me in attendance, most of which bought shares.
david barclay
Cold fusion, hot fusion?

Fusion is the wrong word here, as cold fusion is actually playing with the underlying dynamics of physical matter and is not fusion as such.

If they get to the break even point they will be very lucky indeed, but that is the limit of the thing, at best.

Cold fusion does not actually produce energy as such, it produces an increase in resistance which radiates. No actual energy is created by the process, as the process affects a net loss of energy and a net gain in resistance.

It's tricky stuff alright, but no one seems to really care how it works, all they want is a reproduceable experiment.

The only place you are going to find a sustained fusion reaction is in a black hole, so don't get your hopes up and don't get sucked in on this ITER deal because it isn't going to fly.
iESi shareholder
237) A very important report

Ludwik Kowalski (7/10/05)
Department of Mathematical Sciences
Montclair State University, Upper Montclair, NJ, 07043





I have several pieces of information connected with the story of current interest. THESE PIECES CONTAINED NAMES AND PERSONAL MESSAGES WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC. APOLOGIZG TO THOSE WHO WERE INVOLVED I AM REMOVING THIS INFORMATION NOW (7/14/05).


Added on 7/11/05:

I like the idea of making working iESiUSA devices available to independent investigators, as suggested in the report shown below. Peter is a leading theoretical cold fusion researcher and I think that his report is worth preserving; it will become an important part of history of science. The report is already a "very nearly public document." The blue text is his; black insertions, such as [*1] and [*2], are mine; they refer to comments that follow the report. As indicated above, Hagelstein’s report was sent to me, and to other people, by Jed Rothwell.

“This letter is to provide a brief report on the iESi site visit that took place on February 13, 2005. This company has developed a new energy generation technology that is based on a highly unconventional approach, and I was requested to evaluate it to see whether I thought that it was suitable for investment purposes. As you know, I have been involved in research in the area of cold fusion for nearly 16 years, and was the conference chair of the Tenth International Cold Fusion Conference held near MIT in 2003. I was also involved in the recent DoE review of cold fusion that was held last year. This is relevant as the new technology developed at iESi appears to be related to, or make use of, cold fusion phenomena [*1] as the basis of its operation.

I note that a previous site visit was done, and that iESi provided a demonstration of their technology at that time. This earlier report provides a detailed description of physical parameters associated with the test. The numbers in that report are similar to the numbers presented to me during my visit, so I will not overly belabor points that were covered earlier [*2]. I was interested in understanding some of the issues about how the technology works, as well as understanding the level of expertise of the researchers involved. For example, measurements of current, voltage, temperatures, and flow rates are reasonably straightforward, and the effects under discussion are not small. It was possible to verify by touch the presence of a sizeable temperature increase, and one could see discharge phenomena consistent with the production of significant charge imbalances. Hence the basic claims of energy and charge creation correspond to massive effects that are readily observable independent of any of their diagnostics. [*3]

Real or Faked?

It would be reasonable to ask whether the results presented might have been faked in some way. The production of excess heat would require roughly a 4 kW heater somewhere in the flow stream, along with a power supply from somewhere to drive it. If someone wished to simulate a large heat effect by cheating in this way, it could have been done with the apparatus presented under the conditions of the test. Let me be clear that I do not believe it was, but this cannot be ruled out by any tests or observations that I made.

An electrical discharge was readily observable inside the cell. The breakdown strength of the cell and oil are likely in excess of 100 kV/cm, with breakdown clearly evident, and 2-3 cm distances involved. I would not be surprised if internal voltages on the order of 500 kV were present. Had one been determined to fake this, one could have put in a charge source somewhere in the flow stream, and then taken advantage of an internal Van de Graaf effect to make a discharge. Once again, I do not believe that this was done, but the possibility cannot be ruled out by my observations.

I note also that in the course of my review, essentially no scientific data was presented. In this I was disappointed. [*4] However, Professor Yang provided me freely with many helpful pieces of information that were helpful in learning about their work and observations.

Focus of the Review

It would have been a simple matter to determine whether their system operates as claimed if it worked according to well known operating principles that one could look up in textbooks. As the research effort involves cold fusion effects, there are no textbooks explaining basic operating principles. Nevertheless, there have accumulated a fair amount of understanding of cold fusion systems and how they work over the past 16 years, and my goal was to try to understand how this device might be operating based on previous knowledge of the field. [*4]

Hence, my approach to the review is as follows. Since some of the experiment is inaccessible the possibility of being tricked is ever-present (once again, I do not believe that iESi is engaged in tricking people. The ultimate defense against such things is for an independent lab to construct a version of the device themselves and see it work.), I wanted instead to understand what it is they did and what they saw. Instead of reporting on temperatures and voltages, which has been done previously, I was more interested in understanding what the device was doing and why, based on iESi's experience, it was doing it. I note that within the scientific community, scientists interacting with other colleagues on experiments usually learn about the experiments over time from discussions, from papers, from data, and from working with the experiment. Over the course of a one-day visit [*5] and review, it is not possible to come away with a complete understanding, but one can make every attempt to learn some of the basics of an experiment.

Essential Claims

To make life simple, I will boil things down to a small number of basic claims:

The iESi team claims that a very large amount of energy is being generated as its primary claim, and that energy gain on the order of a factor of five is observed at a maximum temperature on the order of, but less than 100 C. By itself, this claim would seem to be amazing, but it is actually neither unique nor overly interesting for applications. Within the area of cold fusion research, several groups have reported higher gains, or experiments where the gains could easily have been higher with minor design modifications. A heat boost of a factor of five might be interesting for commercial applications were electricity priced lower. [*6]. Thermal to electric energy conversion below 100 C through conventional means is sufficiently inefficient that it would be difficult if not impossible to run the system with its own converted power done this way. Highly significant is the amount of power being generated, as there have not been previous reports of excess power generation at this magnitude. Even more highly significant is the power per volume ratio that one might associate with the working area of the cell, which is on the order of a few kW per cubic centimeter [*7]. similar to power generation densities obtained in cold fusion cells. I note that the iESi team claims that power gains of 20 or more can be produced with their technology.

Also claimed is a very high rate of reproducibility, approaching 100%. The system was demonstrated successfully three times during my stay in Edmonton. I have no reason to doubt that it is reproducible in their hands.

Perhaps the most significant claim is one of an ability to generate large amounts of voltage, current, and electrical power. It was claimed that the team had observed DC electrical power production at a level of 200 kW [4 Amps at 50 kV] with the device under consideration, with a much lower electrical input power. To support this claim, the system was run under conditions where rather memorable discharges were generated, and voltages between 10 and 40 kV were measured on an electrode that extended out from the cell. The discharges were seen to dig tracks through more than an inch of Plexiglas surrounding the active chamber of the cell, which is consistent with the presence of high voltage as mentioned above. I note that a device that can produce electrical power gain significantly greater than unity would be of large commercial value. The iESi team did not demonstrate such a conversion during my visit, but was building up toward such a demonstration for the near future. [*8]

Excess Energy Generation Issues

As discussed above, the excess energy generation claimed, and demonstrated, is on the order of a few kW with an energy gain of about 5 [thermal energy out over electrical energy in]. I asked Professor Yang how he thought that the system produced energy. His explanation involved ideas about proton-proton reactions, and that he was creating conditions similar to that in the outer part of the sun in the discharge areas inside the cell. I will not go into an explanation here as to why such thoughts are not going to be helpful (Professor Yang's area of expertise is in mechanical engineering) [*9]. Consequently, I came to the conclusion that while the research effort has discovered the effect, their understanding of what is happening is not very good. In essence, they have no relevant models for what is occurring within their cell [*10].

After reviewing their cell design, and after thinking about things, I have tentatively come to the conclusion that the basic operation of their cell is ultimately very similar (?) in many regards to that of a conventional cold fusion cell [*11]. The iESi design, viewed from this perspective, has present all of the elements that, according to my understanding of such devices, are required. There is fuel, there appears to be appropriate local matter conditions within the cell, and there is vibrational stimulation. Moreover, aspects of the operation of their cell appear to be consistent with such a picture. The cell appears to turn on and off in accordance with the presence of stimulation, as expected. A proprietary external stimulation increases the heat effect, also as expected. [*12]. The cell seems to give a higher output at increased temperature, which is consistent with expectations associated with the availability of the fuel. Discussions about their experience with different local matter conditions appears to mesh with expectations. The power density associated with excess heat production appears to be very similar to those observed in a conventional cold fusion cell. The ``ash'' expected from this kind of experiment would be 3He, and the iESi team is claiming to have observed 3He from this kind of experiment in experiments elsewhere. [*13]. My present view is that they probably are seeing a very large excess heat effect that works very similarly to other experiments in terms of mechanism, and that the design of the iESi cell in this regard is very good, allowing practical access of a high power operating regime which has not been reported previously.

Verification: Energy

One would always like certainty, especially in matters of science and financial investments. Thinking about things after the visit, I was wondering what kinds of things might be done in order to verify the energy claim. How can one be certain that it works as claimed? How could one prove that the device operates according to one principle or another? The normal way these things are done in more normal scientific circumstances is to do tests of one sort or another. For example, sending a test unit out to a trusted independent lab for an independent measurement of the energy gain would be a simple way to arrange for a confirmation. [*14]. A measurement of 3He in quantitative measure to the energy produced would not only provide a confirmation of the underlying reaction pathway, but would provide an independent measurement of energy production. Simply measuring an anomalously large amount of 3He would be provocative; as such an observation has so far eluded everyone that has tried within the cold fusion community (whereas quantitative 4He has been measured in other experiments). There are a host of more subtle tests that can be done which could shed light on the underlying physical mechanisms. I would recommend that iESi seriously consider the possibility of an independent test in the relatively near future from a respected laboratory. Other tests and experiments should probably be part of a research effort devoted to understanding the device in the months and years to follow.

Charge Generation: Issues

The consequences of the appearance of electrical charge can be seen in the discharge effects associated with the experiment. I asked Professor Yang whether he understood how the charge was produced, and my understanding is that this has not yet been clarified in this experiment. Charge generation is known in association with cold fusion experiments. The effect appeared in a number of gas-loading experiments that I was involved in at MIT in the mid-1990s, and has been reported by some of my colleagues elsewhere [*15].

There are several things that are interesting about the charge generation in the iESi experiment. The charges are probably generated with reasonably high associated energies. This I conclude from observations that Professor Yang reported in which voltages on the order of 1 MV were measured [*16]. In addition, the iESi team reports the observation of a blue glow that can be seen in the oil and Plexiglas when charge is being generated [*3] when the lights are turned down. I was not able to see this effect during my visit, but the device was run during the daytime and there was no way to block incoming light from the outside. A nuclear radiation detector brought near the cell registered counts when the cell was running, but much less or none when the cell was off, consistent with the absence of accessible long-lived beta emitters in significant quantities [*17]. I asked whether they had attempted film exposure after their runs, and they had not done such a test. Apparently x-ray or gamma-ray measurements have been performed on the cells elsewhere, and a signal of some kind has been seen. One would expect a Bremsstrahlung signal in the presence of fast charged particles. It would be fun to see data of this kind.

In my view, this charge emission [*18] effect is probably real. I think that it is a cold fusion phenomenon that has been made to be dominant in this experiment. What is special about this device is that it has been pushed to maximize the charge emission effect [*18] so that it has become a primary reaction channel, such that it dominates the energy budget. This innovation allows for direct in-cell cold fusion to electrical energy conversion. [*19]. This is really interesting, and probably makes obsolete other cold fusion electricity-generating technologies that require an external thermal to electrical energy conversion step.

Verification: Charge generation

The test that would have been nice to see would have been the application of the electrical output from the load to drive an electrical load. Such a demonstration is planned for the near future. Once again, the standard way that a confirmation is normally arranged for in scientific circles in such a situation is to arrange for an independent laboratory to run a test. There are a variety of tests that are possible that would help clarify the physical mechanisms involved, but these should more properly be part of a research effort devoted to understanding the device [*14].

Summary

The primary functionality claimed for the new iESi technology that I reviewed in Edmonton is excess heat generation and electrical energy generation. The level of power generation in the demonstration was several kilowatts for about 15 minutes, and an energy gain in excess of 5. [*20] . Higher power generation and energy gain was claimed in experiments carried out previously. The presence of high voltages was demonstrated, and the ability to drive electrical loads at high power levels (200 kW) with high energy gain was claimed in earlier experiments. [*21]. The usual route to confirm such claimed results would be to send a unit to an independent lab for verification, in this case, of the excess energy generation and electrical output.

The goal of my review was primarily to try to understand what they had done. Thermal and electrical energy generation in this device is due to new physical processes not found in textbooks. In my view the iESi team has managed to get the technology to work in spite of a lack of understanding as to why it works [*22] . The thermal energy generation appears to be closely related to energy generation effects reported in smaller scale cold fusion experiments, with a comparable excess power density, but with a much larger operating volume than done previously due to an innovative design. The electrical energy generation also appears to be closely related to charge generation effects [*15] observed in a smaller scale in cold fusion experiments. In the development of the device, the iESi team has maximized the efficiency of the charge emission, resulting in the direct generation of electricity without a need for external thermal to electric conversion.” [*23]

My comments and questions:

[*1] Nuclear activity constitutes the essence of CF claims. I see not evidence of nuclear activity. Emission of X-rays, mentioned at the end is not necessarily connected with a nuclear process.
[*2] Who visited the company and when? Why is Peter assuming that the customer knows about that visit. Where can learn about these details?
[*3] I suppose that “charge creation” should be replaced by “separation of positive and negative charges,” as in frictional experiments. How can a retired physics teacher miss an opportunity to make this correction?
[*4] I am also disappointed that “essentially no scientific data was presented.” How can this be explained? The purpose of the visit was to convince an MIT professor that technical claims are valid. Why was he treated as a layman by another scientist?
[*5] Who set up the time limit and why? If I had to travel from Boston to Edmonton I would request at least three full days.
[*6] Am I missing something or is there a typing error here? I am thinking about devices producing hot water in the areas where electricity is very expensive, for example, above the polar circle in Northern Canada or Russia.
[*7] Cubic cm of what?
[*8] Should we expect this to be done in several months or several years?
[*9] Yang introduced to investors (by the company CEO) as quantum physicist?
[*10] What part of the device is called cell?
[*11] Similarity is not a t obvious to me.
[*12] I suppose that, in this case, expectations are not based on a theory; they are based on what has been reported by other cold fusion researchers.
[*13] Was the rate of generation of 3He consistent with the rate at which excess energy was produced?
[*14] Yes, this would be a normal way to convince, if one was certain that the claim is valid. Avoiding this way of convincing might indicate that they know that the claim is not valid. In my opinion a reliable operation of a device is more convincing that an attempt to explain its operation. Both components of convincing seem to be absent.
[*15] Is this a reference to generation of alpha particles reported by Jones, Lipson and Oriani? I would be happy place CR-39 detectors into their operating cell and look for presence of charged nuclear particles.
[*16] Voltages between what and what?
[*17] What kind of detector was it and what was detected?
[*18] Emission from where?
[*19] Yes, that would be highly desirable.
[*20] Was it excess heat or was it electric energy?
[*21] I am glad that Peter makes a clear distinction between what was actually demonstrated and what was claimed. I am also glad that possibility of fraud is not excluded by him.
[*22] Somebody would help them to understand science if a clear description of experimental facts were made available to other scientists and engineers.
[*23] Please, be aware that, according to Peter’s message to me (see above), something has to be added at the beginning of the report. I guess it would be a reference to earlier inventions made by Russian researchers.

J. Wensveen
Interesting.

Leaves me with some questions also.

Firstly, it looks as if the people that made this cell miss the know-how to explain or model the effects they see at a more detailed level. So they might want to look for a quantum/fusion mechanist willing to bet his future career on this experiment.


Qua questions:

primarily, what exactly are those charges they mention. It is not exactly clear to me. As I interpret it now, they have a charge build up that discharges now and then during the experiment, resulting in the high voltages and amperages.

Is it true that they were able to tap that charge to outside the cell? as that description of the electrode hat was extended outside would indicate? Since this is a DC power build up? would it be possible for them to drive a DC Motor with it?

If they can keep up a high power output in electrical current and use that to drive a DC-motor, then attach an AC generator to the other side and start supplying the power grid.
iESi shareholder
Here is contact info for iESi. They can supply you with the names of the physicists currently on staff.

iESi Energy Solutions (Alberta), ULC iESi Energy Solutions (Alberta), ULC
105 – 48 Brentwood Boulevard 2181 Premier Way – Suite 220
Sherwood Park, Alberta T8A 2H5 Sherwood Park, Alberta T8H 2V1
Telephone: (780) 417-3044 Telephone: (780) 417-3044
Fax: (780) 417-0345 Fax: (780) 417-0345

xxx
I have been following this long running discussion with some interest. I have met most of the key characters and have seen the demo.
IESI has successfully demonstated cold fusion to various experts, none of which (as far as I know) claim fraudulent behavior is at work here. These experts were usually associated with potential investor groups doing their due diligence.
IESI is not an academic organization, but rather a startup company hoping to commercialize cold fusion. It is in their best interest to keep their cards close to their vest. Much work is required to take the next step, which is to harness the power of the device.
The company is indeed now primarily now based in Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada. The rather impressive scientific team they are assembling is also based there. I think the link to the Nevada so called head office site have been severed. Mr. Cochrane, far from being an idiot, has been instrumental in bringing the development to where it is today.
Don't expect big developments until next year. IESI also has some interesting technologies, not related to fusion, that they are pursuing.
SDM
QUOTE (BC+Jul 17 2005, 07:25 PM)
QUOTE
all you need to know, it is in Canada.
Which has never produced anything of substance in science


I sincerely hope you were joking ES because if you were serious, it only shows your ignorance and misguided belief in your own US propaganda. Many technologies america takes credit for were simply hijacked like nuclear fission and rocketry taken from captured German scientists after ww2.

Anyway, now that Bush has officially changed the country's name to Jesusland and outlawed stem cell research and supports creationism over evolution, you can expect your progress in science to take a nosedive.

Please apologize for the rude comment so the thread can get back on topic.

Same old BS, never any new ideas form these people. Blah Blah Blah
MDT
Cold Fusion raises some interesting possibilites with respect to the chemical plasma states, i.e., fluid and solid, that are found within the earth. Maybe want we expect from vapor phase plasma gases may only partially apply to fluid and solid plasma. The difference might be the result of slower atoms lingering together longer.
MDT
Cold fusion is not that far, in theory, from nuke bomb design. The fuel is a solid chemical state of hydrogen or Lithium Deuteride. High energy from the primary or A-bomb, is focused to geometrically contain and heat the low entropy deuterium. Cold fusion also uses chemical containment and high voltage.
the skeptic
This seems to be degenerating fast...

Having lived in Edmonton at one point, I'm quite suprised to hear of this company. Sherwood Park however is not a 'hotbed of innovation' so I do raise an eyebrow there.

Also, not that I have anything against this person, but reports from 'a shareholder' seem to announce a vested interest and a certain amount of truth bending.

Did Steavo ever track down the company or scientists in question?
Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (onebarron31707+Jun 10 2005, 05:49 PM)
Was anybody present at the MIT CF Colloquium? What did you make of Prof Hagelsteins comment regarding IESI? Could this be the real deal?

This is the year of Hot Fusion! Vulvox Nanobiotechnology Corporation has discovered a novel fusion pellet design that we predict will increase the rate of nuclear fusion in laser fusion reactors by 38,000 times! We are sure that our calculations are correct. THe NOVA laser and the z machine will achieve energy release much greater than break even if our technology is used. Interested people should contact us at the below internet address or phone number. We are seeking universities and government scientists to partner with us. Corporate parterships are being sought also.

Neil Farbstein
President
Vulvox Nanobiotechnology Corporation
protn7@att.net
Vulvox Inc.
516-921-5058

Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (surf-actant+Jun 22 2005, 08:59 PM)
I hate to possibly inject a bit of sourness here, but did the phrase "resonate harmonic frequencies" set any bells off (sorry..) in anybody else's head? Isn't that the exact same apporach, and even phraseology, that Keanu Reeves used in his CF movie about a decade ago? Seems too good to be true.

Don't get me wrong, I would be *** jacked an stoked about this as anyone, and I am pulling for it like crazy, but my hard-won cynicism is just that, hard-won.

sur-actant

I thought of using Resonant harmonic frequencies instead of direct current to cause hydrogen nuclei to fuse myself. It's possible AC electrodes will work where the electrodes and current setups of the past did not. The nuclei could be vibrating closer to each other on part of the cycle and be driven into each other.

Vulvox has a fusion reactor on the drawing board that will achive much greater than break even by use of special fuel pellet designed to concentrate and absorb much more of the laser irradiation than the pellets now being used at the NOVA laser facility, the Omega facility at the University of Rochester or other smaller lasers. We believe it is a real breakthrough that will multiple the rate of fusion
in laser fusion pellet targets by 38,000 times! I doubt that the fusion in a bottle approach can release as much energy as our approach.

Scientists who are interested in working on our project or offering their comments are invited to contact us at protn7@att.net
our website adress: Vulvox Nuclear Fusion Programs
Guest_anton000
QUOTE (Neil Farbstein+Oct 25 2005, 02:34 AM)
QUOTE (surf-actant+Jun 22 2005, 08:59 PM)
I hate to possibly inject a bit of sourness here, but did the phrase "resonate harmonic frequencies" set any bells off (sorry..) in anybody else's head?  Isn't that the exact same apporach, and even phraseology, that Keanu Reeves used in his CF movie about a decade ago?  Seems too good to be true.

Don't get me wrong, I would be *** jacked an stoked about this as anyone, and I am pulling for it like crazy, but my hard-won cynicism is just that, hard-won.

sur-actant

I thought of using Resonant harmonic frequencies instead of direct current to cause hydrogen nuclei to fuse myself. It's possible AC electrodes will work where the electrodes and current setups of the past did not. The nuclei could be vibrating closer to each other on part of the cycle and be driven into each other.

Vulvox has a fusion reactor on the drawing board that will achive much greater than break even by use of special fuel pellet designed to concentrate and absorb much more of the laser irradiation than the pellets now being used at the NOVA laser facility, the Omega facility at the University of Rochester or other smaller lasers. We believe it is a real breakthrough that will multiple the rate of fusion
in laser fusion pellet targets by 38,000 times! I doubt that the fusion in a bottle approach can release as much energy as our approach.

Scientists who are interested in working on our project or offering their comments are invited to contact us at protn7@att.net
our website adress: Vulvox Nuclear Fusion Programs

Som little b.s. here? I'm sorry for being a skeptic.... But I I don't find start-ups / research firms that have tripod free accounts for their website believable smile.gif Further more... No interviews conducted by nanotechnology.com on Neil Farbstein was found (Infact there is no news in their archive for 2004-08-18).

And regarding cold fusion.... UCLA's method of using pyro-electric crystal is repeatable in lab setups compared to Fleischmann-Pons palladium-platinum electrode technique.

here's a link to an article on ucla's experiment
http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/200...25s01-stss.html
anton000
QUOTE (david barclay+Sep 8 2005, 04:57 AM)
Cold fusion, hot fusion?

Fusion is the wrong word here, as cold fusion is actually playing with the underlying dynamics of physical matter and is not fusion as such.

If they get to the break even point they will be very lucky indeed, but that is the limit of the thing, at best.

Cold fusion does not actually produce energy as such, it produces an increase in resistance which radiates. No actual energy is created by the process, as the process affects a net loss of energy and a net gain in resistance.

It's tricky stuff alright, but no one seems to really care how it works, all they want is a reproduce able experiment.

The only place you are going to find a sustained fusion reaction is in a black hole, so don't get your hopes up and don't get sucked in on this ITER deal because it isn't going to fly.

A reproducible experiment.. check above for the link smile.gif

A sustained fusion reaction... only a black hole??!?! has the sun stopped shining on your planet lately smile.gif Cmon millions or rather gazillions of stars are sustaining their reaction everyday.. we'll until they run out of gas, but even then some dieing stars implode to form black holes...
Guest_Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (Guest_anton000+Nov 30 2005, 04:47 AM)
QUOTE (Neil Farbstein+Oct 25 2005, 02:34 AM)
QUOTE (surf-actant+Jun 22 2005, 08:59 PM)
I hate to possibly inject a bit of sourness here, but did the phrase "resonate harmonic frequencies" set any bells off (sorry..) in anybody else's head?  Isn't that the exact same apporach, and even phraseology, that Keanu Reeves used in his CF movie about a decade ago?  Seems too good to be true.

Don't get me wrong, I would be *** jacked an stoked about this as anyone, and I am pulling for it like crazy, but my hard-won cynicism is just that, hard-won.

sur-actant

I thought of using Resonant harmonic frequencies instead of direct current to cause hydrogen nuclei to fuse myself. It's possible AC electrodes will work where the electrodes and current setups of the past did not. The nuclei could be vibrating closer to each other on part of the cycle and be driven into each other.

Vulvox has a fusion reactor on the drawing board that will achive much greater than break even by use of special fuel pellet designed to concentrate and absorb much more of the laser irradiation than the pellets now being used at the NOVA laser facility, the Omega facility at the University of Rochester or other smaller lasers. We believe it is a real breakthrough that will multiple the rate of fusion
in laser fusion pellet targets by 38,000 times! I doubt that the fusion in a bottle approach can release as much energy as our approach.

Scientists who are interested in working on our project or offering their comments are invited to contact us at protn7@att.net
our website adress: Vulvox Nuclear Fusion Programs

Som little b.s. here? I'm sorry for being a skeptic.... But I I don't find start-ups / research firms that have tripod free accounts for their website believable :) Further more... No interviews conducted by nanotechnology.com on Neil Farbstein was found (Infact there is no news in their archive for 2004-08-18).

And regarding cold fusion.... UCLA's method of using pyro-electric crystal is repeatable in lab setups compared to Fleischmann-Pons palladium-platinum electrode technique.

here's a link to an article on ucla's experiment
http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/200...25s01-stss.html

We had an active link to an interview conducted by an editor at Nano Investors News but they have been sold to another company and the new website has stopped publishing the interview. If you pay printing, shipping and handling costs I will send you a hard copy of the interview. Send your address info to
protn7@att.net
devils advocate
Could the human mind have grasped the idea of limits, and at this time are in a state of disbelieve that mater in nature is bound to those limits. Limits such as, a large ball of gas/liquid can only sustain a fusion phase when its mass is of a certain quantity, ( the force of its own mass, gravity)or, if it be a discrete system, (earth bound experiment) a mass can only sustain a fusion phase when an external (to the system) energy is input to that mass that equals a state of nature? This begs a question for the earth bound inquisitor...do men seek to defy nature, or learn to live with it? HOW MANY ANGELS DANCE ON THE HEAD OF A PIN? tongue.gif
CanMan
I was reading some of your quotes and just wanted to say something about the iESi cold fusion machine. I was there for the first run of the one in Canada. I wrote the PLC & HMI program to monitor and log all the data. It works! There is a working cold fusion machine currently sitting just outside Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. So to answer your question...Is 2006 the year for cold fusion...Yup..it has been done!
bang4thebuck
Hi all,

Remember CF claims, made by by B. Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann 1989, didn't hold up, when investigated by DOE's energy research advisory board (ERAB).

In 2004 James Decker, deputy director of DOE's Office of Science, undertook a review of the reasecrh. I'm not aware of the findings/results.

Michael McKubre, an electrochemist at SRI International, from Menlo Park, California worked on an experiments along the lines of Pons and Fleischmann's.
A typical setup consists of a palladium cathode at the center of a helical platinum anode in a solution of heavy water with lithium salt. An applied current dissociates the deuterium, and deuterons load into the palladium.
Experiments take a couple of weeks and "leaving them to sit is where most of the tricks are."
Among the tricks, he says, are loading the palladium with sufficient concentrations of deuterons and increasing the signal-to-noise ratio in heat and helium measurements. "The numbers are what you expect for two deuterons fusing to produce helium-4, with about 24 MeV per helium nucleus. There is a nuclear effect that produces useful levels of heat. I know it's true."

I have heard of a better more long term and ever lasting effcient technique discovered, and tested, a little while ago, by iESi.
Using ultrasonic vibrations to shake a jar of liquid solvent the size of a large drink cup, the scientists say, they squeezed tiny gas bubbles in the liquid so quickly and violently that temperatures reached millions of degrees and some of the hydrogen atoms in the solvent molecules fused, producing a flash of light and energy.

Dr. Richard T. Lahey, a professor of engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and an author of a paper describing the findings that appeared in the journal Physical Review E.
QUOTE
''It can do some interesting science stuff as is,''

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
''It can do some interesting science stuff as is,''

''Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting"


The experiment could conceivably shrink the science of fusion -- slamming hydrogen atoms together, producing heat and light -- from giant, expensive reactors to the tabletop.

Most experiments have been conducted in giant, expensive reactors using magnetic fields to confine the ultrahot gases.
In contrast, this new experiment, which cost less than $1 million, uses the power of sound to create energy comparable to the inside of stars.

And unlike cold fusion, sonofusion is based on known science.
Scientists have long observed a phenomenon known as sonoluminescence, in which a burst of ultrasound causes a bubble in a liquid to collapse and emit a flash of light; some have speculated that the gases trapped in the collapsing bubbles could be heated to temperatures hot enough for fusion to occur.

The new research by Dr. Taleyarkhan and Dr. Lahey provides a much clearer picture of neutrons that are ejected when fusion occurs.
Scientists like Dr. Glenn Young, head of the physics division at Oak Ridge, said:
''Neutrons are slippery little rascals,'' ''They can fool you. They can bounce and show up around corners you don't expect.''

I don't remember from where this was sourced, but a friend working on Cold Fusion and this particular experiment emailed it through to me a little while ago.

Thanks.
Chromodynamix
Lets just ignore the Fundamental forces, eh?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ces/funfor.html

Now where is my tin foil hat?
Steveo
Bang4thebuck. Sonoluminesence is very unlikely to be cold fusion. According to wikipedia the temperatures are only about 20 000K. And as this experiment was a lab in one of my undergraduate physics courses, I have seen it first hand. Its cool, but not overly impressive. Each bubble only emits approximately 150 photons each collapse. Not a useful amount of energy. The system always needs to be driven by the ultrasonic waves, so you would be putting way more power into it than getting out.

http://www.physik3.gwdg.de/~rgeisle/nld/sbsl-howto.html

Here is a how to for those who want to try this themselves.

CanMan, I live in Edmonton. How come I have heard nothing of this? How come your claiming to have a working cold fusion machine, rather than saying the results are looking promising and there is a lot of excitement? And where is the research being done 'just outside of Edmonton'? If it really works, I want to come see it!
bang4thebuck
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 9 2006, 04:27 PM)
Bang4thebuck. Sonoluminesence is very unlikely to be cold fusion.

Steveo,

Your right.
Sorry for not clarifying in haste. I certainly meant Cod Fusion & Sonoluminesence separately, but became lost in the mind I guess rolleyes.gif
Chromodynamix
QUOTE (bang4thebuck+Aug 9 2006, 08:56 PM)
Steveo,

Your right.
Sorry for not clarifying in haste. I certainly meant Cod Fusion & Sonoluminesence separately, but became lost in the mind I guess rolleyes.gif

Freudian slip? (Cod fusion)

I agree, something very fishy about this thread cool.gif
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