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Niv
Hi

While solving some math equation I noticed that I used "dx" (which is what you think it is - a very small number that want to reach zero but isn't zero) as a variable like anything else.

My physic lecturer said on class that mathematicians don't like to use dx as a variable so "don't tell them I did so".

Just until now I realized that I don't understand why , why can't we use dx as a variable ??
After all it IS a number which IS NOT zero huh.gif


Thanks
Niv
Ivars
Hi Niv,

You will sure get replies...

Read the origins of infinitesimal calculus by the creators of it, Euler "Foundations of Differential Calculus" and "Introduction to Analysis of Infinite I and II" , in first there is a special chapter on infinitesimals, read Leibniz, Newton...

Later people stopped to discuss the ambiquity of what dx is, it becomes a formal symbol in textbooks.

You will form your own opinion, if You think hard.

In my opinion You can do with dx what ever You want as long you get correct results and remember its basic properties - to be a 0 where necessary while being not 0 while involved in mathematical operations - as Euler and many others did before advent of rigorous calculus. Mathematicians of rigour "school" have made a sacred cow out of dx and thus have limited themselves with one scale of infinity and one scale of function growth speed at infinity where formal proofs are available and reasonably simple.


AlphaNumeric
Niv, please ignore Ivars. He gives book references which he either hasn't read or didn't understand. He has less mathematical understanding than your typical school leaver. He certainly hasn't done any mathematical analysis, which is the area which is mostly related to your question.

In terms of derivatives, such as dy/dx, you are seeing the ratio between y changing and x changing. dx itself should not technically be treated as a variable, since when you do things rigorously in calculus you don't consider dy and dx as seperate, but combine into a well defined object, dy/dx. The variables are x and y.

In integration you have the integration element dx. Again, it's not really a well defined thing on it's own. It only really has meaning when there's an integral sign there too, just like an integral sign isn't valid without a d[something] too.

You don't treat dx and dy's as variables in the way you have f(x) is a variable of x, ie you don't get f(dx) (in any kind of rigorously done stuff anyway). You can write dx and dy as variables of things, such as when you do a change of variables in an integral.

There are other areas of maths which use the dx notation, such as differential forms. 1-forms look like dx, dy, dz etc.
arte-semaki
dx may be considered as ordinary variable. By definition dx=x-x0 is increasing of independent variable x named differential. Therefore we can work with dx as with any finite number.

to AlphaNumeric:
dy/dx - ratio of differential y to differential x, where dy and dx - finite numbers.
Derivative is limit Δy/Δx at Δx->0 and it equals to dy/dx, but it isn't same
dwk
QUOTE (Niv+Jun 1 2008, 05:09 PM)
why can't we use dx as a variable ??

It's a bit of a grey area, but I guess the main reason is that it doesn't have a well defined value except in relation to another differential like dy.

So you can evaluate dy/dx, to work out the ratio, but you can't solve for dx absolutely and expect to get a number out. If you do solve for dx, you will only ever be able to get in in terms of other differentials, like dy, etc.

Hope that helps
barakn
The key word here is 'variable.' If you have an equation like x=y+3, you can vary x over the whole range of real numbers. Can you vary dx? No, you've limited it to being an infinitesimally small number.
StevenA
QUOTE (Niv+Jun 1 2008, 07:09 AM)
Hi

While solving some math equation I noticed that I used "dx" (which is what you think it is - a very small number that want to reach zero but isn't zero) as a variable like anything else.

My physic lecturer said on class that mathematicians don't like to use dx as a variable so "don't tell them I did so".

Just until now I realized that I don't understand why , why can't we use dx as a variable ??
After all it IS a number which IS NOT zero huh.gif


Thanks
Niv


In order to determine a result, it's true that dx can't be 0, but paradoxically, the computations with dx!=0 aren't (necessarily) the expected solution either and which way this paradox is resolved relies upon subjective physical and geometric assumptions. Notice that in order to determine the slope of a line segment, you need two distinct points. The idea of passing a tangent line through a curve at only a single point is a logically impossible structure as there's no way to compute the slope of a single point.

As a quick example, if we have a function defined at only 3 points, which linearly ordered are A, B and C then only 2 slopes exist between these points, the segments AB and the segment BC, and in general, a function with n solutions only has n-1 derivatives. Also notice that the derivative at B is not precisely defined as this point is an endpoint for two different line segments. (A more deterministic manner of defining a slope would be, for example, to associate a derivative with the line segment to the left of a point, for example, but this is similar to retaining information regarding the quantity dx and doesn't provide the simplification desired for infinitesimal calculus and you still have a point that's an offset or baseline for the function, with no derivative for it - notice that the inverse operation, integration, requires that an unknown constant be added 'C').

Infinitesimal calculus relies upon appending physical and geometric assumptions of smallness, nearness and other forms of potential insignificance to quantize something with an assumed minimal impact on a solution into nothingness, but this quantization is paradoxically something not insignificant as the final step is to remove the record of its existance - something that can't be approached gradually.

Also notice that, though it's obvious that dx must "approach" zero in order for someone to assume the properties could be applied for dx=0 also (notice the elements of indeterminism here as the concept relies upon potentially incorrect and illogical assumptions based upon physical and geometric analogies), but that the manner in which one such quantity, approaching zero, did so relative to another such quantity approaching zero, is not generally considered and this leaves many indeterminant and subjective interpretations to results derive from infinitesimal calculus (not also that finite calculus skips these indeterminant steps and works within finite spaces to determine precise results).
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