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mforbes21
QUOTE

Here are facts that stand on their own - you cannot disprove them:

cool.gif Life was created by an Intelligent Designer.
The entire universe was created by an Intelligent Designer.
This Intelligent Designer has always been, will always be, is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Although the human mind imagines new things and learns different things - they will never fully comprehend or fathom that an Intelligent Designer has always been and always will be until they know Him.
Intelligent Design creates a seed that gets barried in the ground and blooms into a beautiful flower. The Designer has the same plan for mankind.


It's your very first statement that shows that your creationism & ID ideas are not science, but religion. For an idea to be considered science, it must be testable. You yourself admit that ID is not. Ipso facto, ID & creationism are not science.
Steveo
QUOTE
Perhaps all you Christians are right.. perhaps if you believe you will go to heaven, and perhaps this was all designed this way by God. Even within those teachings it makes clear that FAITH is what God wants. He wants people to believe from their heart without evidence. If one could prove he existed you wouldn't be making the decision to choose god, and therefore what would be the purpose of earth? So, even if you are right overall, you are definately wrong to be trying to convice a scientific forum that there is scientific merit in any of this. The universe may have all been created in such a way so that it will never be scientifically provable. Why are you trying?


Very nice way to put it Gaffe3. I think your second post on this subject has been more inciteful than any of the other 10+ pages of posts before hand, thank you!

I would just like to add for Soloved, that maybe if you feel so strongly about ID and creationism, set up your own institute to teach it and have it a voluntary thing. You live in a multicultural society and it is NOT FAIR to everyone who is not christian to have christian creationism forced upon them in a public school. That is why it should never be, and hopefully never will be, taught in a public school. This institute you could create could be open to anyone willing to learn your idea about our origins, but lets keep teaching actual science in science class, and maybe, to make sure your happy, make sure the science classes stress the strength and the inadequacies of science as a whole, and of the specific theories they teach. But they should still not teach ID.
And if a student in class were to ask "did god create the universe" the teacher should respond with something like "I have no idea, thats a personal belief, and beyond the realm of science"
Kent Buchanan
You're definition of faith is not accurate and definitely not biblical. Faith isn't believing or trusting in something or someone in spite of the facts (without evidence). That's stupidity!. Faith is believing in something or someone because of the facts. Would you have faith in a two legged dinner table? Of course not, that would be stupid. All the faith in the world wouldn't make a two legged table stable. However, you would have faith in the design of a table with four legs. Why? Because stabilty demands three points of support. That's good science and that's also well placed faith.


About ID: Most scientific people believe that the universe can be traced back to a singularity. One if the tenets of the scientific method is that every effect must have a cause. What is the cause for the existence of the universe? Science has nothing to contribute prior to the point in time (t=<0). Science brought us to t>0 but can't take us any earlier because we've entered another realm (infinite density - all the matter in the universe but no volume or space). Does that mean we should believe nothing since science can't guide us? I think not. The bible gives an account - "In the beginning God created...". Which is the larger leap of faith - that everything came from nothing without a cause or that God was on the otherside of t=0 and caused the universe into existence?

By the way, the Law of Conseration of Energy (1st Law of Thermodyanamics) says that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed only converted from one to the other (E + M = C). This implies that for matter to come from nothing at t<0 energy would be required. This energy would be the prime mover's effort that sprung the universe into existence.

Let me know if this makes since to you.
Steveo
You make some good points, but the fact is the reason science doesn't or can't tell us anything before t=0 is because as our current model of the universe goes, we can't see evidence, or test for anything before then. ANything in the realm of t<0 turns into speculation, philosophy, and religion. Not all scientists believe in god, and definately all don't. It is documented that plenty of cosmologists, and other scientists have had strong faith. But a good scientist doesn't mix the two to create something that is neither. A good scientist who has faith changes his point of view where god (or some cosmic god) created the universe with laws and that it operates according to these laws.
And your wrong about faith. It is neither believing in something because of the facts, or inspite of the facts. It is believing in something without needing facts. Any religious person might have events happen that they interpret as evidence for god, but the fact is, they had the belief in god before they got that evidence. There might be accounts where people found god because of an event, but that is not the norm, and I would argue that before they had a wavering belief already. What I am saying is that faith comes before the evidence. Where as a scientific viewpoint SHOULD (not always does) come after the evidence, because even in an abstract theory, it is based on some assumptions that are hopefully fairly accepted experimentally.
Grumpy
To gaffe3

I am certainly not a proponent of CS,ID or any other pseudoscience and have a purely scientific atheistic outlook on the universe. Having said that I think the historic, non'Biblical evidence for the existance of the man called Jesus is compelling. There was a Roman prelate named Pontius Pilate in charge of that area at the appropiate time. Roman historians mention Jesus in numerous places. These citations, while not as definative as DNA evidence, do lend credence to the Biblical accounts. This of course does not mean that the Biblical stories are to be swallowed whole but the fact that a man called Jesus lived and taught some 2000 years ago is as well supported as it gets from that era. Myths and miracles have been heaped onto his true story but his message of peace and love still shines through. It was a revolution in moral thought and an original statement of humanistic(as opposed to theocentric) religion. Not perfect but a step in the right direction. After all, Jesus was only human. To accept the existance of Jesus does not mean the acceptance of all the religious bs added by the writers of the Bible hundreds of years after Jesus died. There is a Dead Sea scroll called the book of St. Thomas written soon after Jesus's death whitch the RC Church has tried to suppress because it contains no miracles, no claims of godhead and no virgin birth. All that is in that book are the words of Jesus as he taught of love and forgiveness, look it up sometime. I doubt you will find it as objectionable as the accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
Jerry Duke
user posted image
QUOTE (gaffe3+Aug 25 2005, 05:52 PM)
... many creationists state that Jesus existed and you can prove it. How? ... Where is it?

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:6-13)

On September 6, 1975 I did the experiment. I accepted Jesus Christ. I decided in my heart that if there was anyone that I could trust, it was Jesus Christ and I spoke the words, "I reject Satan and I accept Jesus Christ." In that moment God set me free from the devil and I became aware of how filthy my life had been up to that point. I began weeping and told Jesus, "I so, so, so, so sorry." When I raised up from crying I found that I had been washed clean on the inside. God revealed himself to me in my heart and in my mind that he is my Father, I am going to heaven for sure and I am safe with him forever.

I know that Jesus is real because I did the experiment and Jesus set me free. Before I accepted Jesus, I was a slave to sin, a drunkard, a smiter, etc. now I am a friend of God. God created a new heart in me on September 6, 1975, a clean heart which desires to please him rather than myself. It is a heart which cannot sin.

God has also given me his Holy Spirit which is the earnest of the promise of everlasting life with God in Heaven. Because the Holy Spirit teaches me how to live as a Christian and helps me to understand the Word of God, I know that God will continue to sustain my life throughout all eternity and that I will continue to learn and grow and receive the blessings of God in my life forever.

I also know that Jesus Christ is real because God answers my prayers. One of the main reasons I turned away from God as a young child was because he never answered my prayers. Now that I have accepted God's Son as my Saviour, God answers my prayers.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: (Acts 17:24-27)
adoucette
So Jerry, what you are saying is absent any tangible proof we should take your word for it.

Seems reasonable.

But you COULD prove it.

Prey for a winning lottery ticket.

Since we don't expect God to answer prayers to make you personally rich, simply agree to take none of the winnings yourself and divide the winnings among the skeptics on this board.

(I'll provide an account number to deposit the proceeds to in a private email)

Arthur
Jerry Duke
user posted image
QUOTE (adoucette+Aug 19 2005, 04:24 PM)
... I'm late to this debate but I find it interesting that few have found any common ground. ...

I came into this thinking that the pure science of mathematics was common ground for all sciences. It appears that if the math favors creation, evolutionists dismiss it out of hand, taking great umbrage with those who question the truth their theory.

Evolutionists candidly admit that the stories they tell today will be discarded tomorrow for stories that appear to have more credibility. Brontosaurus, Piltdown man, etc. were taught as facts until the evolutionists admitted that they were frauds or hoaxes. Evolutionists attempt to justify the teaching of lies by arguing that they are the best that science can do at the time.

If evolution were a real science, it would simply disclose the facts and allow people to draw their own conclusions. I think there is a spiritual reason for this lack of common ground.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (II Thessalonians 2:10-12)
Jerry Duke
user posted image
QUOTE (adoucette+Aug 26 2005, 06:15 PM)
So Jerry, what you are saying is absent any tangible proof we should take your word for it.

Seems reasonable.

But you COULD prove it.

Prey for a winning lottery ticket.

Since we don't expect God to answer prayers to make you personally rich, simply agree to take none of the winnings yourself and divide the winnings among the skeptics on this board.

(I'll provide an account number to deposit the proceeds to in a private email)

Arthur


The proof is very tangible to me. If I denied the reality of Jesus Christ, I would be a liar.

The key to having your prayers answered is to pray according to the known will of God. I cannot help you with the lottery. I don't play the lottery because it is a form of gambling and gambling is a sin. I will pray for you that God will give you undeniable evidence that Darwinian evolution is impossible, an epiphany if you will. I believe this is something God wants you to have.

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. (James 4:3)

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14)
Jwsee
Well Jerry
For you to discredit evolution I would think that you would first be more informed on the evidence process that scientist go through to describe the current theories of evolution. We did not state 100 years ago that we knew all the intermdeiate processes that explain evolution< nor do we state that today as well. Every year more information is understood about the process of evolution and when this information is made available then of course we have to re-think current theories of what is happening. No evolutionist has claimed that this experimental process if perfect, but the body of knowledge does get better every year..
QUOTE

On September 6, 1975 I did the experiment.
Any scientist will tell you that in order to perform an experiment you need both positive and negative controls. Please tell me what controls you placed in your experiment. Or mabye this is just a placebo affect.
I do not want to come off as saying that I am right and you are wrong, the point i am trying to make is that in order to effectively argue a point you must be fluent of both sides of the argument
Jerry Duke
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 25 2005, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE
... Even within those teachings it makes clear that FAITH is what God wants. He wants people to believe from their heart without evidence. ...


Very nice way to put it Gaffe3. ...

Faith is evidence.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
adoucette
QUOTE
I cannot help you with the lottery. I don't play the lottery because it is a form of gambling and gambling is a sin.


Gambling is a sin?

I don't recall that one being on the tablets that Moses brought down.

Did he drop one?

Arthur
Grumpy
[QUOTE]
Evolutionists candidly admit that the stories they tell today will be discarded tomorrow for stories that appear to have more credibility. Brontosaurus, Piltdown man, etc. were taught as facts until the evolutionists admitted that they were frauds or hoaxes. Evolutionists attempt to justify the teaching of lies by arguing that they are the best that science can do at the time.

TO Jerry Duke

Piltdown man was a deliberate hoax that was uncovered and exposed by us so called "evolutionists. The Brontisaurus was a skeleton which was originally mounted with the wrong head. This was later corrected but the skeleton did not disappear, it was no lie. This genus of dinosuar is now referred to as apatasaurus because of the close resemblance to other examples which have been found.
The FACT that evolution has occured throughout the history of life on this planet is not in dispute by any real scientists. It is not a lie. Theories explaining the processes of evolution will change as our understanding changes. That is science, it is always subject to testing.

Of course I am wasting my time speaking to a Pharisee such as your self, or are you a Sagesee. Both were known for quoting the texts without understanding the spirit.
soloved
So where are the holes in evolution? Right off the top of my head.....

I posted this in the where are the holes in evolution topic alos, but since I've been hanging around this topic and thought it also relevant here - I'm posting it here as well - hope that's ok.

1. Inability to prove that the earth is more than 10,000 years old.
2. The evolution theory goes against real science by believing that information can arise from disorder by chance.
3. Inability to explain what time is, and therefore, being unable to fathom an Intelligent Designer with no beginning.
4. Inability to accept any other pre-suppositions than their own - such as in the beginning God.... - this puts the whole evolution theory at risk because you break your own rules, which are to consider all the evidence, not just the regurgitated information from a couple hundred years ago.
5. The evolutionist believes we are nothing but animals, an accident of cosmic evolution, with no purpose.
6. Darwin was not the first person to talk about evolution.
7. Evolution is contrary to the word of God. I realize that many of you could care less, nevertheless, this is a fact.
8. Your own community's pro-Darwin biography even tells what a liar and manipulator Darwin could be:
Darwin was known to invent deliberate falsehoods and this became a regular method of seeking the spotlight …
Darwin would do anything at school “for the pure pleasure of exciting attention and surprise.”
(Biography of "Darwin", published by Michael Joseph, London, 1991.
9. While we're on the subject of Darwin, can you tell me - were his father and grandfather anti-Christian? Was the family religion devoted to evolution? I thought Darwin 'stumbled' upon his theory while on a voyage? Also, did a fellow named Erasmus discuss evolution before or after Darwin?
10. Does evolution teach that women are inferior to men and that natural selection seems to favor men? I'm sure your new presidential hopeful Hillary would love to know this little tidbit of information.
11. Evolution does not fill the hole in you.

By using a different pre-supposition - specifically that by definition, an infinite, eternal being has always existed, no one created God (the Designer);
you will factually prove to yourself that there is indeed a Designer, Creator, God.
He is the self-existing one. He is outside of time—in fact, He created time.

Many will shout about intelligent design being a back door to religion. It really, seriously, honestly, has nothing to do with that.
Teaching intelligent design alongside evolution will get people to think and experiment. Who knows, it may work in your favor. I seriously
doubt it, but the point is that you cannot force your belief system down our unwilling throats. These are our children that you are trying
to force feed - not your own (the poor things). It does not advocate religion any more than evolution advocates changing us back into your
pre-supposed ancestoral ape like being. We respect a parents right to teach their children about the origins of life, about God, and even
about evolution. Technically, evolution should never be taught in public schools, it is simply not true, factual, real, or even advantageous!

I realize that you don't like to get all philosophical and touchy feely here. But what the scientist must understand is that we are more than
chemicals. We are living, breathing, human beings that feel and touch, we love, we laugh, we cry, we are emotional. This is something that can be analyzed but for some reason the scientist thinks cannot be analyzed. The scientist who reduces himself to nothing but a chemical reaction is short changing himself.

Have a great week!

rolleyes.gif SoLoved
CactusCritter
I already expressed my view about SoLoved's posting, which he has used for two topics. I saw it first in "'Holes' in Evolutinary Theory".

Largely worthless maunderings.
Echo
QUOTE (rekabis+Aug 9 2005, 10:30 PM)
http://www.physorg.com/news5716.html

A half a millenium ago, we were “debating” whether the world was round or flat. Since then, the voice of Science has prevailed over the voice of Religion, and we all know now that the world is round. Anyone still claiming the world is flat is usually visited by the big men in white jackets and hauled away to a nicely padded cell.

A few hundred years later, another “debate” arose as to whether the Earth revolved around the Sun, or whether the Sun revolved around the Earth. Once again, Science beat out Religion.

And a hundred or so years after that “debate”, another one tried to determine whether the Earth was the center of the universe or not. Once again, Science triumphed over Religious dogma, and we now know that the Earth is but a tiny, insignificant planet circling an ordinary, slightly below-average star sitting way out on the spiral arms of a rather average galaxy that itself is but one member of a group of galaxies, which themselves are just a rather underpopulated example of the kinds of “galactic clusters” of galaxies that span and fill our universe.

Now we have another “debate” between the voice of Science (evolution) and the voice of Religion (intelligent design). But is there really any need for such a “debate” to occur again? Not really.

If anyone were to take some basic, college-level or university-level science and biology classes, especially those dealing in genetics, palentology, geology and evolution, they would come to the overwhelmingly inescapable conclusion that there is no “debate”. Only (yet) another attempt by the well-educated scientific community to inform the ill-educated and religiously fanatical zealots out there that they’ve got their collective heads in the sand.

With virtually every single religion-vs-science “debate” in humanity’s history, science has always prevailed in the end. Yes, there are still a few “debates” still to play out (is there a God? Is there an afterlife?), but no-one has been able to come up with a proper, reproducable, verifiable, double-blind experiment to test these theories with yet.

The beauty of Science is that it is testable, verifiable, reproducable and largely resistant to falsehood. How? Many people think that the whole premise of Science is to PROVE something. WRONG. Being a Scientist is all about DISPROVING something. Create a theory, and then try to disprove it. You might have all the proof in the world, but it takes only one example of disproof to make that theory useless, worthless and utterly wrong; and this is Science’s greatest strength, its ultimate error-correcting mechanism. After all, do we really believe anymore, as it is taught in the Bible, that the world is flat? Heck, it’s in the Bible, so it must be right, no? WRONG.

You can destroy every book about Science in the world, wipe the mind of every person on the planet, and Science would be rebuilt with the exact same structure (although maybe not in the same sequence of discoveries). It has its own error-correcting mechanism built right into it, that ensures that only the truth endures.

Too bad you can"t say the same of Religion.



Well said my friend.

Glad to see there are not only religious ignorants in this forum.
ref
As an observing biology student from Germany, I can not grasp why the nation one can probably consider one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced nation in the world has this debate.

I don't know if it's been already posted here, but if not, you might want to read this: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/...ckononsense.pdf
J. Wensveen
ref.

It is a nice gesture to provide that article. The problem though is that all the ID types refuse to read it. They shun away from the truth.

There is only one way to adress these people, and that is on their own turf with their own words. But it is indeed sad that a Nation like the USA is slowly being dragged back into the dark ages by these theists.
Steveo
QUOTE
These are our children that you are trying
to force feed - not your own (the poor things). It does not advocate religion any more than evolution advocates changing us back into your
pre-supposed ancestoral ape like being.

THis type of attitude towards anything other than ones own beliefs is exactly what is wrong with religion, and with the world these days. You have your own feelings and beliefs, but when the scientist looks at your views the same cry is always heard "We are allowed to believe and teach our children what we want" so I am going to respond with the same cry. Your points about the holes in evolution are actually fairly laughable. In an earlier post I asked you why it was that anytime a scientific dating method was used to support a claim from the bible the religious groups use science as a tool for their devices, but as soon as a similar dating method is used that goes against anything biblical it is bogus science that is being used souly for the purpose of discrediting religion.
Your second point about evolution going against real science saying life can arise from disorder and chance. Could you please explain this further? Because I don't quite think you know what your talking about here. I suspect you are going to try to use the concept of entropy, but if you are, don't waste your time.
Science has no defined time (in seconds) as a specific number of oscillations of an excited cesium atom. I can't remember how many oscillations, but this is a very accurate measure of time. But in evolutionary terms they probably use a calender based on the solar system. Time is just a measure of how systems change in time, so it can be defined just about anyway you want.

So what if evolution is against the word of god. Evolution doesn't try to fit within the framework of christianity. So why is the fact that it doesn't something to disprove it? That is is a joke of a hole in a scientific theory.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
These are our children that you are trying
to force feed - not your own (the poor things). It does not advocate religion any more than evolution advocates changing us back into your
pre-supposed ancestoral ape like being.

THis type of attitude towards anything other than ones own beliefs is exactly what is wrong with religion, and with the world these days. You have your own feelings and beliefs, but when the scientist looks at your views the same cry is always heard "We are allowed to believe and teach our children what we want" so I am going to respond with the same cry. Your points about the holes in evolution are actually fairly laughable. In an earlier post I asked you why it was that anytime a scientific dating method was used to support a claim from the bible the religious groups use science as a tool for their devices, but as soon as a similar dating method is used that goes against anything biblical it is bogus science that is being used souly for the purpose of discrediting religion.
Your second point about evolution going against real science saying life can arise from disorder and chance. Could you please explain this further? Because I don't quite think you know what your talking about here. I suspect you are going to try to use the concept of entropy, but if you are, don't waste your time.
Science has no defined time (in seconds) as a specific number of oscillations of an excited cesium atom. I can't remember how many oscillations, but this is a very accurate measure of time. But in evolutionary terms they probably use a calender based on the solar system. Time is just a measure of how systems change in time, so it can be defined just about anyway you want.

So what if evolution is against the word of god. Evolution doesn't try to fit within the framework of christianity. So why is the fact that it doesn't something to disprove it? That is is a joke of a hole in a scientific theory.

8. Your own community's pro-Darwin biography even tells what a liar and manipulator Darwin could be:
Darwin was known to invent deliberate falsehoods and this became a regular method of seeking the spotlight …
Darwin would do anything at school “for the pure pleasure of exciting attention and surprise.”
(Biography of "Darwin", published by Michael Joseph, London, 1991.


So that quote is conclusive 'proof' that Darwin led a dishonest scientific career. Your quote was refering to him in school, which would probably mean he was a child. Did you ever do things as a child that you don't do anymore? Have you matured since you were in school? Ok, so your quote does nothing to prove academic credability.

QUOTE
11. Evolution does not fill the hole in you.


I never knew evolution was trying to fill a hole in a person? I just thought it was an explanation for the origins of life? But hey, science does fill the holes in some people's lives. They have an undying curiousity and learning fills this hole inside them, so even there you are not right in all cases.

Here is the problem with all of the religious arguements. If you want to disprove evolution do it in a scientific way. If you want to beat it you have to play by its rules in its home city. Science should stay separate from religion because they are completely different games with different rules. And ID and CS are religion making very poor attempts at playing science, and because of their shortfalls they have to cheat to try and keep the game close with evolution. Except this is against the rules and the referees have blown the whistle, thrown the flag, and handed out red cards!
SoLoved
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 29 2005, 03:05 PM)
THis type of attitude towards anything other than ones own beliefs is exactly what is wrong with religion, and with the world these days

Here is the problem with all of the religious arguements.  If you want to disprove evolution do it in a scientific way.  If you want to beat it you have to play by its rules in its home city.  Science should stay separate from religion because they are completely different games with different rules.  And ID and CS are religion making very poor attempts at playing science, and because of their shortfalls they have to cheat to try and keep the game close with evolution.  Except this is against the rules and the referees have blown the whistle, thrown the flag, and handed out red cards!

Ditto - except vice versa.

THis type of attitude towards anything other than ones own beliefs is exactly what is wrong with evolutionists, and with the world these days.

Here is the problem with all of the evolution arguments. If you want to disprove intelligent design, do it in a scientific way. If you want to beat it you have to play by its rules. Evolution should stay separate from religion because they are completely different games with different rules. Evolutionists are making very poor attempts at playing science, and because of their shortfalls they have to cheat (by tampering with the evidence) to try and keep the game close with intelligent design or creation. Except this is against the rules and the referees have blown the whistle, thrown the flag, and handed out red cards! You're outta here!

In case you hadn't noticed - I basically used your own words against you. The only way ID and E can be taught together in a public school is if each side receives a minimum amount of respect.

I knew dang well what all of your reponses would be. You do not even consider the evidence presented to you - you just laugh at it. I challenged you to conduct a personal experiment to see for yourself. You wouldn't even think of it. What's the harm in it? Great and powerful men and women have conducted this experiment and have been humbled. It is perfectly OK to be humble. Look on the bright side, if you fail the experiment you get to stay right where you are (in your opinion) - and that is your goal, right?

You know, in an earlier post I said 'mission accomplished'. You called me a jerk. You never asked what the mission was. You assumed and assumed some more.

The evolutionist wants me to see that we evolved from something else, a cold and undesirable thought to say the least - to be perfectly honest, we don't believe you.

The Intelligent Designer has things to show you as well, problem is - you don't seem to appreciate His handiwork, and so you don't believe Him.

We operate by similar scientific rules on our side of the fence. Once upon a time the rules were set to pre-suppose that there was indeed a creator. The US was founded on those very facts. People from all over the world are literally dying to reach our shores. People stopped believeing in a creator, not because he doesn't exist, but because of the moral code running through the Bible, or even other religious books for that matter. Another reason people stopped believing is because they could not feel powerful enough if there was someone around who was more powerful than him. This is exactly what Lucifer (aka Satan) thought.

We have looked at your theories for quite a while now - and yet in the USA, probably the most advanced country in the world, we still don't believe you. One reply to my post listed statistics for people who believe in ID - apparently the more educated you are the less likely you are to believe in ID, and the more likely you are to believe in evolution. What does that prove? That proves that we should not send our children to a liberal college that teaches evolution. The religious community feels that science and left wing liberalism have overtaken our education system - and they are now fighting back. So you're in this battle, like it or not.

Part of the problem with your theories is that there are so many political and evil implications and motives (that I've described in earlier posts) behind them. They really don't explain anything. It seems that the news is reporting on dishonest scientists everywhere almost everyday. Sometimes your evidence is not what it seems, or has been tampered with. You reject any opinion not of your own because you so fervently believe in your system.

Well so do we. Certainly we have had our fair share of problems in the religious community - but we don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

You say that we should prove our ID arguments in a scientific way, but you are writing the rules. Just because you think you can write the rules of science doesn't mean those are the rules.

You want us to become scientists and prove Intelligent Design your way. You have already set the scene and there is no room for movement here.

The scientist has abused his little bit of power by using it against religion. Because they don't like religion they refuse to be associated with anything that could even remotely be related to religion, like Intelligent Design.

And that's the bottom line.

See Ya
cool.gif SoLoved
adoucette
QUOTE (ref+Aug 29 2005, 11:18 AM)
As an observing biology student from Germany, I can not grasp why the nation one can probably consider one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced nation in the world has this debate.

I don't know if it's been already posted here, but if not, you might want to read this: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/...ckononsense.pdf

Careful when relying on poll results.

Need to check who, where and WHAT was asked, along with the possible replies. Remember, Science, particularly dealing with Theories, is not so black and white as the questions often force the answers to be.

In the Harris poll it turns out that the survey was HEAVILY weighted to people with HS or LESS of an education (47% of the poll). What is clear from the results is that as the level of education goes up the level of disagreement with evolution goes down.

The results were also not quite as dramatic as the headlines:

The results are often stated "only X% believe in evolution", with the obvious conclusion that 100%-X don't. But what is often left out is that roughly 10% decline to answer the question at all. Thus the real opposite is more like 90%-X.

Now if you take into account that people could answer: Strongly Agree, Somewhat Agree, Somewhat Disagree, Strongly Disagree. You find that while the Agree/Disagree is running about 50/50, the "Strongly Disagree" is less than 30%.

So what of the group that said "Somewhat Disagree"? (Approx 20% of the respondents).

I think its fair to say that someone who answers the question "Darwin’s theory of evolution is proven by fossil discoveries." as "Somewhat Disagree", can not be automatically classified as to their belief in the Theory of Evolution. Note the wording of the question: is the theory PROVED by...

What a loaded question. How many people who think the theory of evolution is the best explanation, would still shy away from saying its PROVED, and might very well answer this "Somewhat Disagree"?

Arthur








martello
QUOTE (adoucette+Aug 29 2005, 04:05 PM)
QUOTE (ref+Aug 29 2005, 11:18 AM)
As an observing biology student from Germany, I can not grasp why the nation one can probably consider one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced nation in the world has this debate.

I don't know if it's been already posted here, but if not, you might want to read this: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/...ckononsense.pdf

Careful when relying on poll results.

Need to check who, where and WHAT was asked, along with the possible replies. Remember, Science, particularly dealing with Theories, is not so black and white as the questions often force the answers to be.

In the Harris poll it turns out that the survey was HEAVILY weighted to people with HS or LESS of an education (47% of the poll). What is clear from the results is that as the level of education goes up the level of disagreement with evolution goes down.

The results were also not quite as dramatic as the headlines:

The results are often stated "only X% believe in evolution", with the obvious conclusion that 100%-X don't. But what is often left out is that roughly 10% decline to answer the question at all. Thus the real opposite is more like 90%-X.

Now if you take into account that people could answer: Strongly Agree, Somewhat Agree, Somewhat Disagree, Strongly Disagree. You find that while the Agree/Disagree is running about 50/50, the "Strongly Disagree" is less than 30%.

So what of the group that said "Somewhat Disagree"? (Approx 20% of the respondents).

I think its fair to say that someone who answers the question "Darwin’s theory of evolution is proven by fossil discoveries." as "Somewhat Disagree", can not be automatically classified as to their belief in the Theory of Evolution. Note the wording of the question: is the theory PROVED by...

What a loaded question. How many people who think the theory of evolution is the best explanation, would still shy away from saying its PROVED, and might very well answer this "Somewhat Disagree"?

Arthur

The people responsible for scientific advances are at one end of the bell-curve & represent a small part of it at that. Creationists are at the other end & there are more of them. These people just cannot accept the fact their presence here is just a sequence of accidents & that their life is essentially meaningless so they invent this structure that gives them meaning & it makes them feel better. The rest of us drink beer & tell jokes to one another - this is how we cope with The Mystery!
BockscarLV
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Aug 26 2005, 07:18 PM)
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 25 2005, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE
... Even within those teachings it makes clear that FAITH is what God wants. He wants people to believe from their heart without evidence. ...


Very nice way to put it Gaffe3. ...

Faith is evidence.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

According to God and the scriptures, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, so can say to the mountain "move" and it shall move.

Lets test your faith. Go outside, pick the first mountain you see and tell it to move.

If it doesn't, your faith isn't even as great as a mustard seed...and the difference between you and myself is indistinquishable.

So tell me, did it move?

(Glad I don't have to spend Eternity with you.)

WRITE BACK SOON.
JR
I don't see it that way at all. It says "evidence of things not seen" that doesn't mean faith without evidence!
Steveo
Who wrote the scientific method? I read in another post (I think your thread about the holes in evolutionary theory) that it was Rene Decartes, who was a religious person. You say that we are writing the rules, but if it was a religious person who wrote the rules that you, a religious person are complaining about (if that was credible information of course), then doesn't that mean we beat you at your own game?

QUOTE
Here is the problem with all of the evolution arguments. If you want to disprove intelligent design, do it in a scientific way. If you want to beat it you have to play by its rules. Evolution should stay separate from religion because they are completely different games with different rules. Evolutionists are making very poor attempts at playing science, and because of their shortfalls they have to cheat (by tampering with the evidence) to try and keep the game close with intelligent design or creation. Except this is against the rules and the referees have blown the whistle, thrown the flag, and handed out red cards! You're outta here!


Please explain to me with examples that the scientific community has accepted as to how evolutionists don't follow the scientific method and are making poor attempts at science. I won't deny that some individual scientists have tampered with data and done very dishonest things, but when these things are discovered this person's scientific career is usually over, and if not, this person's later discoveries are definately tainted by their bad reputation. If you can give me a concrete example of this that is more than hear say and manipulating a quote I would love to hear it and may even become more open to your side.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Here is the problem with all of the evolution arguments. If you want to disprove intelligent design, do it in a scientific way. If you want to beat it you have to play by its rules. Evolution should stay separate from religion because they are completely different games with different rules. Evolutionists are making very poor attempts at playing science, and because of their shortfalls they have to cheat (by tampering with the evidence) to try and keep the game close with intelligent design or creation. Except this is against the rules and the referees have blown the whistle, thrown the flag, and handed out red cards! You're outta here!


Please explain to me with examples that the scientific community has accepted as to how evolutionists don't follow the scientific method and are making poor attempts at science. I won't deny that some individual scientists have tampered with data and done very dishonest things, but when these things are discovered this person's scientific career is usually over, and if not, this person's later discoveries are definately tainted by their bad reputation. If you can give me a concrete example of this that is more than hear say and manipulating a quote I would love to hear it and may even become more open to your side.

THis type of attitude towards anything other than ones own beliefs is exactly what is wrong with evolutionists, and with the world these days.


Your right, its whats wrong with the world these days in general, but I have seen and experienced this much MUCH more from religious factions than I have from the scientific community (the scientific community is mainly snobby to 'blue collar' professions, which is also a shame, but a different debate) Maybe my experiences have been very unlucky to paint religious groups with this brush, but thats how it has been in my life, with Christians being BY FAR the worst offenders here. I have actually found islamic people to be very tolerant of others beliefs, where as most christians are not. While I was in highschool I asked a fellow student "do you think your better than me because you are a christian?" and he told me that he did. I have had several experiences of that nature. Some stronger, and some more subtle, but all that are not how Christianity should be practiced. So after experiences like this why would I would to conduct that personal experiment? I do not want to join an institution that is trying to feel superior to other groups of people.

QUOTE
We operate by similar scientific rules on our side of the fence. Once upon a time the rules were set to pre-suppose that there was indeed a creator. The US was founded on those very facts. People from all over the world are literally dying to reach our shores. People stopped believeing in a creator, not because he doesn't exist, but because of the moral code running through the Bible, or even other religious books for that matter. Another reason people stopped believing is because they could not feel powerful enough if there was someone around who was more powerful than him. This is exactly what Lucifer (aka Satan) thought.


I thought America was created on the principle that people should be free to warship which ever god (or lack there of) they chose and not have the beliefs of others stuffed down their throats. By trying to force ID and CS into the classroom that is effectively what you are doing. All of the christian majority might like that (although several christians also don't think ID should be taught in school) but what about the islamic people, or any other religion out there in the states that has a different origin of life story? All of those people are effectively being alienated. But here is another thing, science seems to be something that exists in all religions around the world, and I think people from many different religions also study and research evolution. Why is it that a scientific subject, such as evolution can transend this differences of spirituality and be accepted in many different cultures?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We operate by similar scientific rules on our side of the fence. Once upon a time the rules were set to pre-suppose that there was indeed a creator. The US was founded on those very facts. People from all over the world are literally dying to reach our shores. People stopped believeing in a creator, not because he doesn't exist, but because of the moral code running through the Bible, or even other religious books for that matter. Another reason people stopped believing is because they could not feel powerful enough if there was someone around who was more powerful than him. This is exactly what Lucifer (aka Satan) thought.


I thought America was created on the principle that people should be free to warship which ever god (or lack there of) they chose and not have the beliefs of others stuffed down their throats. By trying to force ID and CS into the classroom that is effectively what you are doing. All of the christian majority might like that (although several christians also don't think ID should be taught in school) but what about the islamic people, or any other religion out there in the states that has a different origin of life story? All of those people are effectively being alienated. But here is another thing, science seems to be something that exists in all religions around the world, and I think people from many different religions also study and research evolution. Why is it that a scientific subject, such as evolution can transend this differences of spirituality and be accepted in many different cultures?

We have looked at your theories for quite a while now - and yet in the USA, probably the most advanced country in the world, we still don't believe you. One reply to my post listed statistics for people who believe in ID - apparently the more educated you are the less likely you are to believe in ID, and the more likely you are to believe in evolution. What does that prove? That proves that we should not send our children to a liberal college that teaches evolution. The religious community feels that science and left wing liberalism have overtaken our education system - and they are now fighting back. So you're in this battle, like it or not.


So what your saying is that "the most advanced country in the world" should change its education system even though it has worked to get them to become "the most advanced country in the world" Now, last I heard is that the USA is falling behind in its science and technology, but I can't claim that as a reliable source, so I guess its just hear say for now. I hope you realized that the qualities that make countries technologically advanced are the same qualities that allow science to thrive. If you change the way science is taught (evolution is part of science) then your country will suffer the consequences, which likely will be that you won't be as advanced.

Which scientific theories don't explain anything? Are you speaking of all science, or just evolution? As far as I know evolution gives a much better explanation to life than ID does. Even if there is a creator, it is pretty well accepted that the creator would not have created man the way he is now. The human race has changed and evolved over time. You claim that with evolution there is no purpose, but isn't the survival of life a purpose enough? Life is a beautiful thing, and whether or not someone believes in god I don't think they will deny that. And sure, maybe there was a creator, and maybe all of this trying to find an alternate explanation will not lead to a correct on, but until people started not accepting the word of the church there was no advancement at all. Science has changed the world, and besides, the fun and the beauty of science is not with the final result, but with the journey.



QUOTE
The scientist has abused his little bit of power by using it against religion. Because they don't like religion they refuse to be associated with anything that could even remotely be related to religion, like Intelligent Design.


Please find me sources that confirm this. You are making a hugely generalized statement that does not fit with the entire scientific community. As was posted in your other thread, many prominent scientists have been very religious over the centuries, and even now adays many are. I am an undergraduate student now, and plenty of my classmates are very religious, yet they also believe in evolution and science. In the truth of the matter it has never been sciences goal to prove there is no god or creator (maybe individual scientists, but not the community) because god or a creator is an untestable thing. Explain to me how you are going to set up a reproducable experiment with every variable besides one's faith to test if there is a god? Impossible! Any experiment of such magnitude relies to much on people, and people have life experiences that shape their views, plus there is no way you are going to be able to empiracally measure the presence of god. But don't be so careless to say that scientists don't like religion. that is a careless, unvarifiable statement of the whole scientific community.
SoLoved
Steveo & Genesplicer,
It's amazing to me how blind you can be to your own ignorance. You ask for evidence and I tell you to conduct a scientific experiment. You turn it around and say I'm not going to join some stupid organization, blah blah blah.

Nobody told you to join anything. You avoid the issue. You laugh at the religious person. Because you have had bad experiences you put all religious people in the same box. Well, all that shows is that you live in a box.

You are not following an approved scientific method when you will not consider ID.
You're just being ignorant.

QUOTE
Quote by Steveo:  Which scientific theories don't explain anything? Are you speaking of all science, or just evolution? As far as I know evolution gives a much better explanation to life than ID does. Even if there is a creator, it is pretty well accepted that the creator would not have created man the way he is now. The human race has changed and evolved over time. You claim that with evolution there is no purpose, but isn't the survival of life a purpose enough?


Evolution theories do not explain anything. I think Science is wonderful except when you use it to advance foolish theories that do nothing to answer the ultimate question. You need to consider that your pre-supposition or premise may be mistaken.
I have already posted a response in the past 2 days to someone who thought God was a lousy designer. Your disrepect for people really makes me want to shout!

But you know what, there is some truth to your statement - God would not have created man the way he is now.
God created man in his perfect image. Before sin entered the world man lived in paradise. Read the first few chapters of Genesis to see what happened to our world when man sinned.
What is sin: Estrangement from God.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quote by Steveo:  Which scientific theories don't explain anything? Are you speaking of all science, or just evolution? As far as I know evolution gives a much better explanation to life than ID does. Even if there is a creator, it is pretty well accepted that the creator would not have created man the way he is now. The human race has changed and evolved over time. You claim that with evolution there is no purpose, but isn't the survival of life a purpose enough?


Evolution theories do not explain anything. I think Science is wonderful except when you use it to advance foolish theories that do nothing to answer the ultimate question. You need to consider that your pre-supposition or premise may be mistaken.
I have already posted a response in the past 2 days to someone who thought God was a lousy designer. Your disrepect for people really makes me want to shout!

But you know what, there is some truth to your statement - God would not have created man the way he is now.
God created man in his perfect image. Before sin entered the world man lived in paradise. Read the first few chapters of Genesis to see what happened to our world when man sinned.
What is sin: Estrangement from God.

More Steveo:
So what your saying is that "the most advanced country in the world" should change its education system even though it has worked to get them to become "the most advanced country in the world" Now, last I heard is that the USA is falling behind in its science and technology, but I can't claim that as a reliable source, so I guess its just hear say for now.


You are the one who said the the US is the most advanced country in the world. I agree with you, I'm just trying to show you why we are the most advanced country in the world. Falling behind in Science & Technology is not an indication of inferior status. We are advanced because we are free, at least for now.


QUOTE
Quote by Steveo: 
I thought America was created on the principle that people should be free to warship which ever god (or lack there of) they chose and not have the beliefs of others stuffed down their throats


Now you need a history lesson?

You are free to worship whomever or whatever you wish. SO AM I ! I choose God.

We hold these truths to be self-evident ....we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights...

The Declaration of Independence and certain liberties are grounded in a higher law to which all human laws are answerable. This higher law can be understood to derive from reason—the truths of the Declaration are held to be "self-evident"—but also from revelation. There are four references to God in the DoI: two from Jefferson (noting "the laws of nature and nature’s God" and that all men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights") and two added by Congress (an appeal to "the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions" and "the protection of divine Providence").

The first term suggests a deity (higher law) knowable by human reason, without divine revelation (moral code?). But the others—God as creator, as judge, and as providence—are more biblical and add a certain theological context to the document.

Liberals have been working very hard to remove these self-evident things. There has never been such an anti-God mentality in the US until now. The founding fathers would probably beg to come down here and set us all straight, except they are having way too much fun.

Do you call the removal of Christian symbols in our public places 'freedom to worship'?

Then what do you call teaching evolution to children who have parents who do not believe in evolution?

What do you call teaching evolution in universities to students who don't believe in evolution?

What do you call it when the professor gives the disagreeable student an F for posing other views?

This is ignorance to the ultimate maximum degree!


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quote by Steveo: 
I thought America was created on the principle that people should be free to warship which ever god (or lack there of) they chose and not have the beliefs of others stuffed down their throats


Now you need a history lesson?

You are free to worship whomever or whatever you wish. SO AM I ! I choose God.

We hold these truths to be self-evident ....we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights...

The Declaration of Independence and certain liberties are grounded in a higher law to which all human laws are answerable. This higher law can be understood to derive from reason—the truths of the Declaration are held to be "self-evident"—but also from revelation. There are four references to God in the DoI: two from Jefferson (noting "the laws of nature and nature’s God" and that all men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights") and two added by Congress (an appeal to "the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions" and "the protection of divine Providence").

The first term suggests a deity (higher law) knowable by human reason, without divine revelation (moral code?). But the others—God as creator, as judge, and as providence—are more biblical and add a certain theological context to the document.

Liberals have been working very hard to remove these self-evident things. There has never been such an anti-God mentality in the US until now. The founding fathers would probably beg to come down here and set us all straight, except they are having way too much fun.

Do you call the removal of Christian symbols in our public places 'freedom to worship'?

Then what do you call teaching evolution to children who have parents who do not believe in evolution?

What do you call teaching evolution in universities to students who don't believe in evolution?

What do you call it when the professor gives the disagreeable student an F for posing other views?

This is ignorance to the ultimate maximum degree!


QUOTE  by me
The scientist has abused his little bit of power by using it against religion. Because they don't like religion they refuse to be associated with anything that could even remotely be related to religion, like Intelligent Design.

Quote by Steveo: 
Please find me sources that confirm this. You are making a hugely generalized statement that does not fit with the entire scientific community.


All you have to do is read the posts in this forum to get a generalized idea of how the scientific community feels about ID. Why the very title of this forum is as foundationally biased as the theory of evolution: Intelligent Design = Creationist MYTHOLOGY, not Science!

Then you could proceed to read about the whole Smithsonian Institute fiasco. Look what the 'scientific community' does to one of its own when it feels threatened. Survival of the fittest, heh?

You are correct when you say that this is a hugely generalized statement. I apoligize. It's only about 90% correct.

QUOTE
Quote by DCalvin in another post:  Say Person A and B are a Teacher, a Scientist and an Engineer with their PhD in Genetics and BioChemistry, and a B.A. in Statistical mathematics. Person A and B observe organism C:
Person A and B review the same empirical data and view the same observations.
Person A hypothesizes that organism C is “designed” and then continues with reverse engineering to prove otherwise.
Person B hypothesizes that organism C is “evolved” and then continues with reverse engineering to prove otherwise.

Question? Is this an example of any religious faith? What is the difference here between person A and B?

Now if Person A and B also teach a class on organism C, Person A must violate their sensibilities (or conscience) if forced to teach only Person B’s hypothesis and Person B would violate their sensibilities (or conscience) if forced to teach only Person A’s hypothesis. Is there a solution to this where both Person A and B can be happily consistent?

Repeating the Question? Is it possible, fair, or right, for equally qualified Person A and B to be forced to teach hypothesis regarding C they believe to be incorrect? If the state politics comes in and dictates which hypothesis, then is it fair that either Person A or B will have to violate their conscience or sensibilities, for what they believe is a wrong conclusion?

Again why is saying “design,” technically constitute or not constitute meaning religion?


This entire discussion about ID and E could be reduced to this one quote.

This is an excellent point! DCalvin has completely captured my thoughts exactly. I am not always that good with descriptions, Thank you DCalvin.


rolleyes.gif SoLoved
solidspin
SoLoved and DCalvin -

QUOTE
Again why is saying “design,” technically constitute or not constitute meaning religion?


The answer is that ID, by definition (and by the nonsensical blatherings of this 'SoLoved' idiot), requires some entity to do the designing. Since that entity is, again by definition, beyond the limits of measurement it definitely is not science and definitely IS religion.

Without measurement, there is no science. period. If you want to purvey a hypothesis - which is all ID is. It definitely is NOT a theory. The definition of a theory is 'model, supported by evidence'.

Evolution as a model is supported by copious evidence, which I cited in another thread:

Science, October 6, 2000; 290(5489): 147 - 150

Science 285, 1748–1751 (1999)

or this one is grrrrrrrreat:

J. Biol. Chem., Vol. 278, Issue 43, 41573-41576, October 24, 2003

The power of a theory (in the scientific denotation) is that it allows one to predict both forwards and backwards in time (to refute SoLoved's crap in the other thread). Evolutionary theory does just that.

What you non-scienceheads don't understand is that the EXACT SAME methodology is used in EVERY avenue of science. As my name suggests, I spin compounds to look at their nuclear signatures. I use the EXACT SAME methodology (the Scientific Method) that was used to compile the Evolutionary model - Occam's Razor, if you will.

All data I get are provable. Just like ALL the finch-beak-length data that Darwin collected are provable and reproducible. For the same reason that the papers I cited above are all provable and reproducible. The papers above are of particular importance, since w/ the species c. elegans, we can now witness evolution in action of hundreds of generations of life. It's absolutely fascinating, totally unprecedented and again, the SAME tenets of the evolutionary model were used to construct the parameters of these experiments and predict their results, namely the Scientific Method.

ID has absolutely no empirical basis. THIS is why I personally give you, SoLoved or whoisJC or dCalvin or whomever no validity. If ID were truly a model, the scientist could immediately test it, measure it and either prove it or disprove it. I, as a scientist, can't do that, since the Discovery Institute, that nutjob James Dobson or anyone else in the kook-brigade could give me even one empirical parameter. Not one. Not a single measurable item.

But it gets worse. That nonsense about 'nobody able to prove that the earth is older than 10,000 years is total bullsh&t. The half life of carbon-13 is 5170 years. The half-life of potassium-40 is 1.28 billion years. But you people don't even acknowledge well-established nuclear data.

Let me tell you, you will be VERY happy that nuclear decay works reproducibly if you or some loved one has a cardiac issue. Cardiologists use 201Th, 99Tc and a host of other radionuclides to determine cardiac problems.

- angrily spinning solids - my experiment finally worked - reproducibly I might add biggrin.gif
Dan
What's all the hubbub, bub? Does it really matter all that much? I mean, the folks who turn a blind eye to evolutionary science will eventually be weeded out by natural selection, right? Child of creationist shuns scientific method, fails to get good job, fails to control adequate resources, etc. I think natural selection took care of the flat earth folks and the geocentric model of the universe; why should it be different here?
solidspin
Dan -

I would tend to agree, except that these morons vote. They also find their way onto schoolboards like the ones in Kansas and start screwing w/ things they don't understand - like childrens' minds.

-ss
Guest
Good afternoon,

In England they tried something in genetics, called cell fusion, they took goat and sheep dna and smashed it together and see what came out. They called the resulant creature a geep. Although the creature was "designed" I do not know it that could be construed as "intelligent" design.

Humanity is currently designing all kinds of new contructs with DNA. Genetically modified corn, beans, wheat ect are all taking place. Is not that "intelligent design"?

DNA is the perfect engineer's dream material for building whatever organic thing you need, once you understand the process.

Only one species a couple billion years ago would have been needed to make two break throughs, genetic engineering and space travel. Once those two fields were mated intelligent design could account for most higher life forms in the universe.

Don
Grumpy
QUOTE
You are not following an approved scientific method when you will not consider ID.


But we have applied the scientific method to CS and ID and found them completely lacking in scientifically supportable evidence. The evidence presented has been falsified or misinterpreted( by intent or through a lack of understanding of basic scientific principles). Every hypothesis presented by proponents of ID are easily shown, by the scientific method, to be an ameteurish attempt to twist facts to fit the preconcieved ideas of those proponents. Evidence which cotradicts those preconcieved ideas is ignored and the scientists who develope that evidence slandered and dismissed. And FAITH is not evidence, only hard, testable,and repeatable facts are.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You are not following an approved scientific method when you will not consider ID.


But we have applied the scientific method to CS and ID and found them completely lacking in scientifically supportable evidence. The evidence presented has been falsified or misinterpreted( by intent or through a lack of understanding of basic scientific principles). Every hypothesis presented by proponents of ID are easily shown, by the scientific method, to be an ameteurish attempt to twist facts to fit the preconcieved ideas of those proponents. Evidence which cotradicts those preconcieved ideas is ignored and the scientists who develope that evidence slandered and dismissed. And FAITH is not evidence, only hard, testable,and repeatable facts are.

Do you call the removal of Christian symbols in our public places 'freedom to worship'?


No, I call it freedom FROM religion, which is within my rights.

QUOTE
Then what do you call teaching evolution to children who have parents who do not believe in evolution?


I call it a public(for all) school science classroom.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Then what do you call teaching evolution to children who have parents who do not believe in evolution?


I call it a public(for all) school science classroom.

What do you call teaching evolution in universities to students who don't believe in evolution?


I call it an advanced science class prepareing young people to take thier place in labs and universities throughout the scientific community.

QUOTE
What do you call it when the professor gives the disagreeable student an F for posing other views?


I call it an exercise in courage that the professor stood up to Ludites such as yourself.
Guest
Good afternoon,

To soloved, your the one who needs the history lesson. The first 11 chapters of genesis are not hebrew, it was taken from stories advanced by the sumerians, later copied by the akkadians, the babylonians, hittites, caananites, moabites, et cetera.

If you actually picked up a book on ancient civilizations you would find we decipered tablets written 1500 years BEFORE abraham was even a gleam in his dad's eye.

Abraham was from UR of the chaldees. UR was already 1000 years old when abraham lived there, he would have been well versed in both reading and writing cuniform. the ONLY language of science in his day. He would have read about the sumerian flood epic, man's creation and all the rest. When he left UR he would have taked those stories with him and incorporated it into his "new" relegion.

If you were TRUELY a student of BOTH history and religion you would find EVERY relegion is based partly on the "old" relegion it replaced.

"God created man in his perfect image. Before sin entered the world man lived in paradise. Read the first few chapters of Genesis to see what happened to our world when man sinned.
What is sin: Estrangement from God."


Once again SoLoved you are wrong, sin is not enstrangement, sin is the breaking of a law, and commiting a sin could have various levels because every sin had a different "sin tax" you had to pay at the temple.

We no longer call it a sin to break a law we call it a felony or mistmeanor, depending on the level of the "sin" or crime you commited.

IF you actually READ the old testment you will see that in the Torah "The Law" it SPECIFICALLY spells out what each sin (crime) is and what the person has to do to "atone" for the sin (crime) he commited. In almost all cased it involves paying some sort of monetary damage. buying a dove from the temple priest, or if you were REALLY bad you might have to buy a bull or two to sacrifice at the temple.


Don
clanger
I have a couple of thoughts on this subject. First off, to stick to the original theme of this thread, no ID should not be taught in schools - although it might be relevant in some kind of Social Studies class, or as a side-note in Religious Education. Certainly it shouldn't be accorded any respect on the same level as a scientific theory such as evolution.

Next point is that Religion is a great example of the principles behind evolution, and survival of the fittest.

Imagine for a moment several 'primitive' societies living on one land mass. As primitive societies, I mean they do not understand the workings of the world around them to any level - do not know about germs, bacteria etc. One society happens to have a religion that, say, tells its followers to treat food preparation as holy, and to wash blood off the hands, keep knives clean and so on. A neighbouring religion states that animals must be eaten raw in keeping with God's will, and a third is areligious, and there is no special way to prepare meat. An outbreak of disease spreads, and the first society is relatively unscathed - clearly this is because the other two angered God by not following the correct preparation rituals. Thus, the fitter societies survive - it's the same luckiness that an animal with opposable thumbs has.

Religion organises cultures, it allows the masses to follow the leaders without question, it makes for 'fitter societies' which will prevail. It is easy to imagine a religious society setting out on a warlike expedition to wipe out neighbouring societies that are areligious, while an areligious society is less likely to do the same to religious people. We owe our modern society to religion. I'd like to think we're nearly at a stage where we can throw it off, and move on, although reading this thread makes me a little depressed on that score -- looks like it's going to be longer than I used to think!

My final point is that it is clear to any impartial observer that ID is just creationism rebranded with a new shiny name.
ApeMan
Firstly, glad I could find a debate on this topic where at least *some* of the people in the discussion actually know something about science!

Firstly, as a Christian (that's a Faith issue, not a scientific issue) I believe in teh Bible. So I am not a Darwinian, Neo-Darwinian, Punctuated Equilibriumist, or whatever. However, neither do I reject outright that evolution doesn't happen (as it obviously does, just look at at the increase in average height of the Japanese population since 1945!). Just to get the background out of the way...

As a Christian, I think that the much-publicised proponents of ID have taken a fantastic tool and seriously misused it - or at least use the 1 + 1 plus somthing must equal 1435, therefore case closed.

To my knowledge, ID as a tool came about from the SETI program, where mathematical and analytical tools were developed to distinguish possibly "intelligently designed" signals away from naturally produced ones (and anyone who has ever studied pulsars - as I have - knows that this can be a bitch of a job). These tools "appear" to be a good idea, but obviously haven't been able to be applied perfectly in their field of origin except for purposes of elimination - in other words, their primary purpose is as an analytical tool to DISPROVE the existence of intelligent design in apparenly complex systems.

These tools were then taken by some biologists and applied to various biochemical systems and they were not DISPROVED. However, failing to disprove does not equal proof (I currently work in a law enforcement environment, and no prosecutor will go to court just because they they cannot prove the defendant didn't do it).

I think that the ID toolset needs a great deal of work by competent biochemists before it can be applied to biochemistry, rather than using a system designed for astrophysics and cosmology to be used in a different discipline with no customisation, as it were.

That all being said, I still believe that the Bible is true, but I do not confuse that with proof that that is the case. I know that my personal beliefs, convictions and, yes, experiences, do not consititute belief.

The bottom line is that if God exists, He is probably in the best position to prove to individuals that He exists. If He is incapable of that, then...
GeneSplicer
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 29 2005, 08:12 PM)

I thought America was created on the principle that people should be free to warship which ever god (or lack there of) they chose and not have the beliefs of others stuffed down their throats.

Steveo,
I just had to ask. Was this a typo or a Freudian slip? laugh.gif
mforbes21
QUOTE (ApeMan+)
as it obviously does, just look at at the increase in average height of the Japanese population since 1945!


Actually, that has more to do with better nutrition and medical care than anything else. Two or three generations is just too small a period of time for evolution to effect an entire culture like this. Even the much larger height difference between humans of the era of the early Roman Empire and humans of today can still be (mostly) chocked up to better nutrition and health care.

I mean no offense, though. Although we come from different faith backgrounds, we're on the same side of this argument.
GeneSplicer
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It's amazing to me how blind you can be to your own ignorance. You ask for evidence and I tell you to conduct a scientific experiment. You turn it around and say I'm not going to join some stupid organization, blah blah blah.

Nobody told you to join anything. You avoid the issue. You laugh at the religious person. Because you have had bad experiences you put all religious people in the same box. Well, all that shows is that you live in a box.

You are not following an approved scientific method when you will not consider ID.
You're just being ignorant.


I think it is more blind to ignore posts. I have mentioned before that I have read and considered both ID and CS and that both always ultimately break down to religious faith.

You also seem to make the some assumptions on your part as to Steveo’s or my own religious experience. This makes it appear that you are taking the stance that we have some emotional element to take a stand against ID or CS. From what I have read from Steveo and from what I have debated about was based in rational and skeptical thinking, not emotion.

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, willful or not. I think that both of us as well as many other posters have describes the basis for the theories of both ID and CS. You continue to argue from the point that what you believe is fact and a given in any argument. Religion is not science.

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It's amazing to me how blind you can be to your own ignorance. You ask for evidence and I tell you to conduct a scientific experiment. You turn it around and say I'm not going to join some stupid organization, blah blah blah.

Nobody told you to join anything. You avoid the issue. You laugh at the religious person. Because you have had bad experiences you put all religious people in the same box. Well, all that shows is that you live in a box.

You are not following an approved scientific method when you will not consider ID.
You're just being ignorant.


I think it is more blind to ignore posts. I have mentioned before that I have read and considered both ID and CS and that both always ultimately break down to religious faith.

You also seem to make the some assumptions on your part as to Steveo’s or my own religious experience. This makes it appear that you are taking the stance that we have some emotional element to take a stand against ID or CS. From what I have read from Steveo and from what I have debated about was based in rational and skeptical thinking, not emotion.

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, willful or not. I think that both of us as well as many other posters have describes the basis for the theories of both ID and CS. You continue to argue from the point that what you believe is fact and a given in any argument. Religion is not science.

Evolution theories do not explain anything. I think Science is wonderful except when you use it to advance foolish theories that do nothing to answer the ultimate question. You need to consider that your pre-supposition or premise may be mistaken.


This on the other hand show your continued ignorance in this matter. Evolution does address and explain such. If you choose not to see it, that is a flaw on your part.

You also continue to mix religion and mysticism with reality and science. Evolution does not seek to answer any philosophical question such as the “ultimate question” as you put it.

You also need to see that your presumptions are based not in reality but religion and mysticism. If you wish to make such a foundation valid in a scientific argument, then do so other wise it is just small-minded bias on your part to demand that a rational pursuit of knowledge include the mythical and the mystical.

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I have already posted a response in the past 2 days to someone who thought God was a lousy designer. Your disrepect for people really makes me want to shout!


You assume that anyone who does not accept your religion does so due to hatred or bias and now you speak of disrespect? Also, voicing an opinion that is contrary to your religious based notions is now disrespect?

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I have already posted a response in the past 2 days to someone who thought God was a lousy designer. Your disrepect for people really makes me want to shout!


You assume that anyone who does not accept your religion does so due to hatred or bias and now you speak of disrespect? Also, voicing an opinion that is contrary to your religious based notions is now disrespect?

But you know what, there is some truth to your statement - God would not have created man the way he is now.
God created man in his perfect image. Before sin entered the world man lived in paradise. Read the first few chapters of Genesis to see what happened to our world when man sinned.
What is sin: Estrangement from God.


Simplistic and mystical explanation of reality. This is the type of mindset that we need to move away from. It is irrational and emotional mysticism that seeks to deny our pursuit of science and exploration of our world.

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You are the one who said the the US is the most advanced country in the world. I agree with you, I'm just trying to show you why we are the most advanced country in the world. Falling behind in Science & Technology is not an indication of inferior status. We are advanced because we are free, at least for now.


Advancement is not freedom. That is a social classification. Advancement is based in science, average intelligence of the populace and the technologies readily available and used by that population. If you are free and living in a mud hut, you are not advanced.

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You are the one who said the the US is the most advanced country in the world. I agree with you, I'm just trying to show you why we are the most advanced country in the world. Falling behind in Science & Technology is not an indication of inferior status. We are advanced because we are free, at least for now.


Advancement is not freedom. That is a social classification. Advancement is based in science, average intelligence of the populace and the technologies readily available and used by that population. If you are free and living in a mud hut, you are not advanced.

Now you need a history lesson?


Obviously you need one SoLoved. The Declaration of Independence is not the foundation of our country. The Constitution is. You like to politicize this matter. So be it. Right-wingers who rely on this strawman do so out of fear. They fear that the founder’s were wise enough to allow for a country that allowed true freedom of religion which included the choice to be without religion. Stick to the law of the land, not your hopes of what it is.

The framers of the Constitution sought to create a nation where no one would be forced to follow an official religion as it was in England. Do you need to be reminded that our form of government and our laws are not xian but pagan in origin?

Theist like you must understand that this country is not and has never been a xian nation. To think this is part of your problem.

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Do you call the removal of Christian symbols in our public places 'freedom to worship'?


Public places are just that and not places to force religion onto others.

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Do you call the removal of Christian symbols in our public places 'freedom to worship'?


Public places are just that and not places to force religion onto others.

Then what do you call teaching evolution to children who have parents who do not believe in evolution?


These students can simply ignore these topics. You know, much like they ignore their parents teaching them about abstinence and not using drugs and alcohol.

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What do you call teaching evolution in universities to students who don't believe in evolution?


Ditto for these students. They can just avoid taking the evolution classes or they can go to a theistic base college that teaches science as filtered through the myth of your choice.

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What do you call teaching evolution in universities to students who don't believe in evolution?


Ditto for these students. They can just avoid taking the evolution classes or they can go to a theistic base college that teaches science as filtered through the myth of your choice.

What do you call it when the professor gives the disagreeable student an F for posing other views?


Back that claim up with fact.

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This is ignorance to the ultimate maximum degree!


No, just your fear that people are trying to destroy what you believe to be “your” xian-based nation. Like I stated before, that is a presumption on your part and one that is false. This has never been nor will it hopefully ever be a xian nation.

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This is ignorance to the ultimate maximum degree!


No, just your fear that people are trying to destroy what you believe to be “your” xian-based nation. Like I stated before, that is a presumption on your part and one that is false. This has never been nor will it hopefully ever be a xian nation.

All you have to do is read the posts in this forum to get a generalized idea of how the scientific community feels about ID. Why the very title of this forum is as foundationally biased as the theory of evolution: Intelligent Design = Creationist MYTHOLOGY, not Science!


Biased against the irrational? Yes. Science is based in the verifiable and uses rational thought. Religion and the “theories” of ID and CS do not, therefore they cannot be by definition included in the realm of science. This is not abuse of power or hatred or persecution of theists. It is how science and rational thought operates.

ID and CS start with the basis of a designer, the source of that designer founded in religion. Again, this is why ID and CS are not science. The inclusion of religion, myth or mysticism corrupts science because you cannot include such nonsensical ideas into any rational pursuit.
Steveo
QUOTE
Steveo,
I just had to ask. Was this a typo or a Freudian slip?

Neither, just a simple ignorance of spelling.

Soloved, the experiment you claim that we should conduct is not a true experiment. You are not controlling all of the variables except for faith. Without controlling the variables it is not an experiment and no real conclusions can be drawn from it.
And you are completely wrong, I do not laugh at the religious person, I respect the religious person IF they have their beliefs and let me have my own without trying to force their beliefs on me. I do never want to be part of any organization that does such a thing, and my whole point is that I will not even attempt that experiment because of the organization that claims those beliefs. And I am not in a box. My mother is a very religious person. I love her, and respect her and her beliefs a lot, even though my beliefs are different. And she loves me and respects my beliefs even though she believes differently, which is how it should be.

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Steveo,
I just had to ask. Was this a typo or a Freudian slip?

Neither, just a simple ignorance of spelling.

Soloved, the experiment you claim that we should conduct is not a true experiment. You are not controlling all of the variables except for faith. Without controlling the variables it is not an experiment and no real conclusions can be drawn from it.
And you are completely wrong, I do not laugh at the religious person, I respect the religious person IF they have their beliefs and let me have my own without trying to force their beliefs on me. I do never want to be part of any organization that does such a thing, and my whole point is that I will not even attempt that experiment because of the organization that claims those beliefs. And I am not in a box. My mother is a very religious person. I love her, and respect her and her beliefs a lot, even though my beliefs are different. And she loves me and respects my beliefs even though she believes differently, which is how it should be.

You are free to worship whomever or whatever you wish. SO AM I ! I choose God.


And I choose not to worship god. I don't worship science. Science is a tool for me to find out more about the world I live in. Wanting ID taught in a classroom is not allowing everyone to choose what they will worship because your christianity will be stuffed down everyone's throats. What happens to their freedoms? Oh wait, they probably don't matter because their choice goes against yours and therefore is not important right? Do you see the corner you have backed yourself into? Having your own beliefs is fine, but as soon as you try to put your beliefs in a place that forces others to hear it, any objection to this is not an attack on you, but a defense of them. You don't understand this, and think all of everyone's posts are attacks on you (when in fact only some of them are attacks on you)

Now I don't have the statistics to back it up, but over the world, christianity is the most prominent religion, and athiesism is near the bottom. I would imagine that the number of scientists with each religions is probably fairly similar to that of the general world population. I know scientists who are religious. Like I have said about 50 times alread, science and religion can survive together in harmony as long as both are practiced properly. I thank Apeman for his post which clearly differentiated his faith from his scientific beliefs. It just shows that a rational person can have strong faith, and still understand that what science does is of a different realm. Also that information about the SETI program was very interesting and something that I personally did not know before.

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Only one species a couple billion years ago would have been needed to make two break throughs, genetic engineering and space travel. Once those two fields were mated intelligent design could account for most higher life forms in the universe.


But thats asking a lot. As much, if not more than evolution asks. We have not found any evidence in the observable universe that there esists, or existed intelligent life. So that means, as far as our knowledge, the probability of intelligent life is at the highest 1/[(number of galaxies in the observable universe)*(average number of stars per galaxy)*(average number of planets per star)] This is some huge number, and I don't know, but would wager that this is a smaller probability than that of evolution happening (at least in some form, maybe not the currently accepted theory of it). Now this arguement in no way disproves ID from an extra terrestrial source, but it puts it in perspective.

I don't know how free the United States is. Lets just say I am glad I live in a different country (Canada) where we are hopefully more open minded and accepting (at least our government is, even if the people are not) We have legalized gay marriages, which is a huge step forward in equality for all people, not just the majority of people.
Kent Buchanan
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 25 2005, 10:21 PM)
You make some good points, but the fact is the reason science doesn't or can't tell us anything before t=0 is because as our current model of the universe goes, we can't see evidence, or test for anything before then.  ANything in the realm of t<0 turns into speculation, philosophy, and religion.  Not all scientists believe in god, and definately all don't.  It is documented that plenty of cosmologists, and other scientists have had strong faith.  But a good scientist doesn't mix the two to create something that is neither.  A good scientist who has faith changes his point of view where god (or some cosmic god) created the universe with laws and that it operates according to these laws. 
And your wrong about faith.  It is neither believing in something because of the facts, or inspite of the facts.  It is believing in something without needing facts.  Any religious person might have events happen that they interpret as evidence for god, but the fact is, they had the belief in god before they got that evidence.  There might be accounts where people found god because of an event, but that is not the norm, and I would argue that before they had a wavering belief already.  What I am saying is that faith comes before the evidence.  Where as a scientific viewpoint SHOULD (not always does) come after the evidence, because even in an abstract theory, it is based on some assumptions that are hopefully fairly accepted experimentally.

You’re right. Science is silent when it comes to t=<0, at and before the singularity. However, the implication from the Conservation of Energy is clear. If matter is nonexistent then energy is all there is (E+M=Constant©, or E=C when M=0). Energy requires work. Work implies a worker, or in this case a Creator. Pure energy without matter is why science is limited to t>0. Science can't explain from what or whom the energy originated at t=<0. Matter can be created from energy when there is sufficient expertise applied. Physicists know how to do this now on a subatomic scale. The Creator did it on a very large scale.

I say all this to say that my ID faith is less of a leap than believing in random chance. Cosmological evidence mounts daily supporting the big bang theory. That means that the universe has an origin. Most cosmologists believe the universe is in the neighborhood of 16 billion years old. Sixteen billion years is a long time but not near enough time for chance to play a role in the propagation of life. Now I ask what takes greater faith, believing that there was an intelligent designer at work (a cause for the effect) or believing that somehow matter (inorganic and organic) popped in to existence from nothing without a prime mover? I think ID requires less faith. But, please note that both views require a belief system and faith.

I’ve been thinking about faith. You have a point. I oversimplified my argument. Faith inherently includes hope for the future despite any obstacles that might loom in the future. However, faith in an entity is severely misplaced if the entity isn’t worthy of trust. Trust (faith in action) is earned. How is it earned? By time spent observing the entity. If an entity has integrity time will be required for its integrity to be authenticated via observation. If the entity is found to possess integrity then reasonable faith can be entrusted to the entity. Entities with real integrity are the only ones worthy of faith and ultimately trust. This is where hope comes in. If an entity has proven integrity (in the past) then hope for the future will result. Hope is built on the foundation of the integrity discovered during the time the entity was observed. So I think you’re right in a sense – faith doesn’t necessarily require facts – facts do help though. But I think your wrong about not needing facts at all. The facts (truth about the entity’s integrity) built the stage for the faith & trust in the entity for the future. The entity could be an experiment, observations of nature, a loved ones behavior or a model for the birth of the universe.

FYI: I’m and old earth creationist. I believe the events set forth in Genesis one are accurate in scope and sequence. The universe was created by God. All the observations that are made in the Genesis one are made from God’s perspective in earth’s atmosphere (not from the heavens as most people think). Get the perspective right and the sequencing is congruent with today’s cosmology. In the beginning the earth’s atmosphere is opaque and it’s dark. Eventually the atmosphere becomes translucent. Global tectonics take place. The water cycle begins. Plants are created and the atmosphere clears to where God (remember His perspective - earth) sees the sources of the light – sun, moon & stars. Then animals are created and ultimately humans. By the way a literal translation of the Hebrew word “Yom” also allows epochs not just 24 hrs days. An epoch can be millions of years.

You see I believe my faith is based on reasonable conclusions. The chances that an ancient writer could have gotten the scope and sequencing right is overwhelming. And, by the way my quest for answers is what drove me to become a Christian. If the bible didn't have the answers I wouldn't be debating.
gadfly
Rather than post upon at least three related forums, this writer attempts to combine three related topics on this forum, posting only at #1.

1 - HARVARD ORIGINS OF LIFE STUDY SHOWS BIAS AGAINST CREATIONISM

2 - What are the "holes" in evolutionary theory?, Describe "holes" in evolutionary theory

3 - Replying to Intelligent Design = Creationist MYTHOLOGY, not Science!

But to be somewhat repetitive in addressing SoLoved & dCalvin who need to be reminded that the god of genesis apparently understood the evolution of man and other creatures or that his designs were faulty design:

Recall Genesis 6 The Flood.
From biblegatewayDOTcom New International Version
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

solidspin is correct but an effort nust be made to "difficult to stem the tide of ignorance".

To address SoLoved
"You are free to worship whomever or whatever you wish. SO AM I ! I choose God."

Was Jesus not a liberal Jewsih rabbi? Was Caiphas not the conservative Levite preist? Was Paul not a consevrvative who persecuted the lberal Christain Jews until his conversion to an even more liberal form of Christianity? Is this not relgious evolution?
CactusCritter
I have seen the term "xian" used several times, perhaps mainly in this discussion.

I thought that it might be the French prophet of little rationality who managed to convince his followers that interstellar folks seeded the earth with life. Some of his followers, with his urging as I recall, committed suicide so their souls could be transferred to a spaceship which was supposed to be following a comet a few years ago.

However, when I performed a Google check on "xian", I was informed that it was a fairly important city in northern China.

So, what does "xian" mean when it is used in this discussion?
Grumpy
QUOTE
All the observations that are made in the Genesis one are made from God’s perspective in earth’s atmosphere


Since the Earth is,at most, 4.5 billion years old are you saying that God had nothing to do with the birth and 9 billion year evolution of the universe to that point? Most scientists accept that the Big Bang happened 13 billion years ago according to the latest information. All the elements heavier than H2 had to be "cooked up" in the extremely large, short lived stars of the first generations. As these stars reached the end of their lives they went nova, blowing huge amounts of themselves into gas clouds rich in the heavier elements. The Black Hole remnants of this first generation eventually became the supermassive BHs around which the first galaxies formed . The gas clouds provided the materials for stars like our sun and planets like ours in those galaxies.


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All the observations that are made in the Genesis one are made from God’s perspective in earth’s atmosphere


Since the Earth is,at most, 4.5 billion years old are you saying that God had nothing to do with the birth and 9 billion year evolution of the universe to that point? Most scientists accept that the Big Bang happened 13 billion years ago according to the latest information. All the elements heavier than H2 had to be "cooked up" in the extremely large, short lived stars of the first generations. As these stars reached the end of their lives they went nova, blowing huge amounts of themselves into gas clouds rich in the heavier elements. The Black Hole remnants of this first generation eventually became the supermassive BHs around which the first galaxies formed . The gas clouds provided the materials for stars like our sun and planets like ours in those galaxies.


Science is silent when it comes to t=<0


Remember that as we look back in time to close to time=o that the universe enters the realm of quantum effects. In this realm, in total vacuum, pairs of virtual particles(particle and antiparticles) are constantly coming into being and,after a time, mutually destroying themselves. This does not violate the conservation of energy because the energy of emergence is "paid back" by the energy of destruction, so net energy=0. This is the souce of Hawking radiation of BHs when one of the pair is captured by the BH as one escapes with a net loss of the BHs energy leading eventually to evaporation. By the way, E=mxcsquared is an equivalence equation. Energy becomes matter and vice versa without interferance by intellegence. The Big Bang was probably a quantum effect that through inflation escaped the quantum realm before it could be cancelled out. There is probably an anti-universe in another deminsion. This may explain the lack of anti-matter in the early universe that has puzzled physicists for years(theories suggest there ought to be near equity). There was no "before" the singularity.

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Pure energy without matter is why science is limited to t>0.


The only thing which emerged from the BB was energy. at those energy levels matter cannot exist. As energy levels dropped(through inflation and expansion) a phase change occured and the energy became matter. Before the BB there was no time.

GeneSplicer
QUOTE (CactusCritter+Aug 30 2005, 11:53 PM)
I have seen the term "xian" used several times, perhaps mainly in this discussion.

So, what does "xian" mean when it is used in this discussion?

Xian is an abbreviation for Christian, similar to the use in xmas.
GeneSplicer
An article to consider.

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2005/830/1

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Life Was No Mistake

How did life evolve from nonlife? The jury's still out on that one, but scientists have now answered an equally important and related question: How did early RNA molecules grow longer and more complex without succumbing to destructive mutations? RNA, it turns out, can take a surprising amount of mutation and keep on ticking.
SoLoved
blink.gif The debate/discussion of ID & E

Many people have misinterpreted or do not understand the meaning of the terms Evolution or Darwinism and Intelligent Design. Darwinism is actually an old-fashioned word that is generally used to refer to the concept of macro-evolution. Macro-evolution is Darwin's theory that random mutations over beellions and beelions of years and survival of the fittest can account for the diversity and complexity of life on earth. This concept can also be generally called naturalistic evolution or natural selection.

Darwinists assert that when earth was a baby, from a mix of water-born chemicals, weather and atmospheric conditions, known as Primordial Soup, sprang the first primitive living organism. From this first life form all living things evolved, including humanoids (I like to play with words sometimes, it's a habit I learned from my brother). The skeptical saying goes "from primitive goo to me and you by way of the zoo". Darwinism supposes evolution from lower life forms to higher life forms, including humanoids.

From the time of Darwin to the present, much of his macro-evolutionary theory has been whittled away by the revelations of more sophisticated scientific methods. Darwin's more modern followers have "evolved" the theory of Darwinism to fit what they believe is a defensible position. The correct phraseology for this modern practice of Darwinism is "neo-Darwinism". Basically, this continues to be the theory of macro-evolution by the mechanism of micro-evolution.

It is important to note that while neo-Darwinian theory is widely disputed, micro-evolution is essentially settled science. Micro-evolution is the process whereby small changes occur within species that may result in adaptive differentiation within species. An example is the mating of an English Cocker Spaniel and a French Poodle; the result is the popular mixed breed, the American Cockapoo. But note, it is still a dog. It should be noted that even conservative Biblical Creationists like me acknowlege that micro-evolution is settled science.

dry.gif It is worth noting that some ardent Darwinists will sometimes state noisily that evolution is "settled science", like gravity is settled science, but in reality only 10% of their entire theory is settled- just view a few of the anti-design posts in this very forum to see how noisy they can be. If they are referring to micro-evolution, they are correct (the 10%). However, there is uncertaintity in the terminology. Macro-evolution (or neo-Darwinian theory) is far from settled science.

Intelligent Design (ID) has its own issues of nomenclature. The critics claim there is no theory or even scientific hypothesis of Intelligent Design. This is not the case. Intelligent Design works by way of established good science. ID scientists work from emperical scientific method, as do most biologists, physicists, chemists, etc.

cool.gif Intelligent Design, like Darwinism, can be understood as a movement.

With two primary positions as noted from the ID network:

First, ID has done a thorough review of Darwinian evolutionary theory. Darwinisms beginnings start from the thoughts of naturalist philosophers like David Hume, from the 18th century. Darwin wrote "Origin of the Species" in 1859. ID propents believe there are numerous foundational bias problems with Darwinism. This first position of ID is to "teach the controversy" between comtemporary science and neo-Darwinian hypotheses.

Second, Intelligent Design uses multiple scientific studies to demonstrate that origins of the universe, life on earth as well as complexity in living organisms is not explainable by way of naturalistic, or Darwinian hypotheses. ID uses the scientific genres of biology, chemistry, physics, geology, archaeology, cosmology, among others to demonstrate that Darwinism falls critically short of its goals. Further, ID says that the complexity observed via emperical scientific observation and experiment yields life structures and processes that observationally look like non-living structures that are only a function of intelligent design.

Intelligent Design does not make claims regarding who or what the intelligent designer might be. ID, like neo-Darwinian theory, is an observational field of study. It looks and makes statements. Neither Darwinism nor Intelligent Design contribute much to experimental biology; they are both focused on telling the history of the universe and life on earth.

It is interesting to note that both Darwinians and ID proponents have philosophical underpinnings. But contrary to the conventional wisdom, Intelligent Design has less inference to religion than Darwinism.

Philosophically, Darwinism points to an atheistic world view; often called naturalistic atheism. As such, there is one overriding philosophical premise in neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory. It can be summed up with the phrase "Anything But Design". In essence, this means that any naturalistic process is possible to potentially explain the history of life on earth. The only possible causes that are rejected by Darwinists are those involving the potential for Intelligent Design, or "Anything But Design" (ABD).

ID, on the other hand, begins from a different position. Intelligent Design relies on "emperical scientific method" to determine the origins of the universe, life on earth and life's incredible diversity and complexity. Contrary to the outcry of critics, ID makes no comment regarding either atheism or theism. Intelligent Design has no connection with the Biblical Creationism movement, which typically calls for a "young earth" (10,000 or so years old) and a strict interpretation of life on earth by way of the book of Genesis. That does not mean that Creationists do not support the ID position, especially as it relates to teaching ID alongside E in public schools. My personal views may differ slightly from the standard ID position, but in general I am in agreement with its premise.

The specific scientific findings Intelligent Design has made state that structures and processes of living organisms compare to inorganic structures and process that are most certainly designed by an intelligent method or agent. ID analyzes living systems via standard scientific methodology and forms conclusions based on the emperical evidence, without any prior commitment to either atheism or theism or ID or evolution. The origin or identity of the designer that is strongly inferred is not of interest to Intelligent Design. ID merely states and illustrates the emperical presence of design in living organisms.

Darwinism has a long history and paper trail. Intelligent Design is a more recent field of study, dating to the late 1980s. But ID has offered up some compelling work that merits even-handed consideration. For the debate on the relative merits of the opposing movements, a clear understanding of what each movement believes is critical and that is why I am making this long post.

cool.gif I have started a diplomatic debate/discussion in one of the other forums here, see 'Holes in Evolution' and I look forward to a friendly back and forth.

dry.gif Now to all the posters here who want the ID'ers and Christians to get off the board, well who would you talk to then? Do you only want to talk to people who think like you and can stoke your ego? Gimme a break, that's no fun.

Careful evaluation of the shortcomings of Darwinism, including examples of scientific and educational fraud can easily be found by performing a simple google search. Given the ongoing ID slaughter and emotional outcry from lay-evolutionists claiming Intelligent Design is religion, I feel that it is important to clear the air of that misidentification.

Have a good day,
rolleyes.gif SoLoved


GeneSplicer
QUOTE
Careful evaluation of the shortcomings of Darwinism, including examples of scientific and educational fraud can easily be found by performing a simple google search.


Again to state something that seem to elude you SoLoved it the fact that a flaw or “shortcomings” in one theory does not automatically lend support to any other theory, including the pseudoscience of ID and CS.

And again, you make broad claims condemning both the scientific community and academia with little other than your religion to back it up. As it has been stated by others, anytime the scientific community’s finding support your theism , you gleefully refer to them. When the findings show that your theism is wrong, you launch into claims of an intellectual conspiracy or intellectual fraud.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Careful evaluation of the shortcomings of Darwinism, including examples of scientific and educational fraud can easily be found by performing a simple google search.


Again to state something that seem to elude you SoLoved it the fact that a flaw or “shortcomings” in one theory does not automatically lend support to any other theory, including the pseudoscience of ID and CS.

And again, you make broad claims condemning both the scientific community and academia with little other than your religion to back it up. As it has been stated by others, anytime the scientific community’s finding support your theism , you gleefully refer to them. When the findings show that your theism is wrong, you launch into claims of an intellectual conspiracy or intellectual fraud.

Given the ongoing ID slaughter and emotional outcry from lay-evolutionists claiming Intelligent Design is religion, I feel that it is important to clear the air of that misidentification.


Yet with every posting you have made here, you provide proof of such claims. ID and CS rely on the idea of a supernatural creator. This is not a rational basis for a theory. It is a religious one. Hence anything built upon it is also religious.

The misclassification comes form supporters of ID and CS that claim that ID and CS has nothing to do with theism or the xian religion.

So far, other than the Hovind-type of illogical argument, all you have done is to take any piece of information and either dismiss it or filter it via your religion. Are you trying to claim this is both a rational and scientific view?

It sounds as if the emotional cries are coming form the faithful who realize that their myths are being rejected more and more.

Take for example your selective use of the board's emoticons. How many posts have you used them to show your contempt of anyone who challenges your theism or use them to portray non-theists as angry and such?
yeshua4real
From http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.
In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection -- how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.

ID is controversial because of the implications of its evidence, rather than the significant weight of its evidence. ID proponents believe science should be conducted objectively, without regard to the implications of its findings. This is particularly necessary in origins science because of its historical (and thus very subjective) nature, and because it is a science that unavoidably impacts religion.


Positive evidence of design in living systems consists of the semantic, meaningful or functional nature of biological information, the lack of any known law that can explain the sequence of symbols that carry the "messages," and statistical and experimental evidence that tends to rule out chance as a plausible explanation. Other evidence challenges the adequacy of natural or material causes to explain both the origin and diversity of life.


Intelligent Design is an intellectual movement that includes a scientific research program for investigating intelligent causes and that challenges naturalistic explanations of origins which currently drive science education and research.



http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/

Intelligent Design Network, Inc. is a nonprofit organization that seeks objectivity in origins science.
Objectivity results from the use of the scientific method without philosophic or religious assumptions in seeking answers to the question: Where do we come from?
We believe objectivity will lead not only to good origins science, but also to constitutional neutrality in this subjective, historical science that unavoidably impacts religion. We promote the scientific evidence of intelligent design because proper consideration of that evidence is necessary to achieve not only scientific objectivity but also constitutional neutrality.



y4r
GeneSplicer
Yeshua4real, I take it you are an adherent if the ID/CS faith. So I will address one point made from the information from this site already posted once.

QUOTE
In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection -- how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose.


Teaching anyone how to recognize patterns in biological forms is highly subjective and not based upon anything other than a desire to find patterns. ID, CS and it’s supporters ignore evidence that does not support or proves their claims wrong.

It can also not be avoided that many of the most vocal proponents of ID and CS are doing so from a theist desire to re-introduce religion into government schools via pseudoscience.

Organizations like the one you cited may wish to try to avoid the topic or simply to equivocate, but ID and CS ultimately comes down to a belief in a creator whether that creator be supernatural or the E.T. variety.

Such is the realm of fantasy, myth and religion, not a rational pursuit.
Grumpy
To soloved

QUOTE
Now to all the posters here who want the ID'ers and Christians to get off the board, well who would you talk to then? Do you only want to talk to people who think like you and can stoke your ego? Gimme a break, that's no fun.


Speaking for myself, you are incorrect in your assumption that I wish that Christians to leave this forum. What I do want is for you and all other ID adherants to realize that the facts do not support ID or CS nor do they contradict the Biblical scriptures. All they contradict is the interpretation of those scriptures by a narrow segment of the Christian faith. ID and CS are desperate, last ditch attempts by this small segment of the christians to avoid having to accept the fact that evolution occured and that their many times great grandpa had a distinctly simian appearance and could barely walk upright.

If you believed that God said "Let there be light" and the Big Bang happened with all the natural laws set so that the universe evolved as it has to now, I would have no scientific way of proving or disproving your belief, nor any motivation for doing so. Nor would this interpretation be contrary to the first chapters of Genesis. What is writen there is about all an uneducated man from that period would have understood of the evolution of the universe if someone sat him down and explained it to him. The Bible is not a science book, so to expect detailed explanations of Quantum Mechanics, Inflation theory. Stelar evolution, Synthesis of Chemicals and Distribution through Supernova explosions, Supermassive Black Holes and their role in Galaxy Formation...is not a realistic POV. Yet that is what ID and CS tries to do. They have twisted facts, misused scientific principles, ignored and distorted well supported theories, misquoted or slandered honorable men of science all in an effort to fit the framework their misuse of scripture conjures up so they don't have to admit that a long long lost relative of theirs swung from a tree and went "ook".

All this would not bother me in the least if they kept this to themselves and taught it at their private schools to their own children. But nooooo! They insist that they ought to be able to teach this CRAP to everyone elses children too. In a public school, in a science class and as equivalent to a theory hammered out over 130 years by dedicated scientists facing scathing peer reviews, doing lifetimes of digging to recover the evidence, experiment after experiment, wash rinse repeat, doing the hard work that good science requires to produce a well supported theory.

Not on my watch.
adoucette
This appears to be the key paragraph in that post about ID

Positive evidence of design in living systems consists of the semantic, meaningful or functional nature of biological information, the lack of any known law that can explain the sequence of symbols that carry the "messages," and statistical and experimental evidence that tends to rule out chance as a plausible explanation. Other evidence challenges the adequacy of natural or material causes to explain both the origin and diversity of life.

Could you parse that for me, having read it several dozen times I'm still not clear on the meaning of:

semantic in the context it is used in.


What "evidence of design", BY AN EXTERNAL DESIGNER exists in the "meaningful or funtional nature of biological information"? What Biological Information are we referring to anyway, DNA?

What is meant by "sequence of symbols that carry the "messages""?

What "evidence" TENDS to rule out chance as a plausible explanation? This last one is quite interesting because it apparently ALLOWS that chance could be responsible without help of a designer.

We've already been over the fact that there is no THEORY of how life formed but what evidence do you have that "challenges" (nice weasle word, unlike DISPROVES which does not equivocate) "the adequacy of natural or material causes to explain the diversity of life".

Arthur
gadfly
What this topic needs is a Theologist who Understands Science and the Scientific Method. There was such an individual about 150 years ago.

From: faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/ and library.villanova.edu/

Gregory Mendel
At 22 entered Augustinian Monastery of St. Thomas at Brno
Ordained into the priesthood in 1847
Taught secondary school science for the next twenty years

Began experimenting in the monastery garden
Resulted in his discovery of the basic laws of heredity
Findings published 1865

Using garden peas for his subject, Mendel's studies in "plant hybridization"
Proved the existence of paired elementary units of heredity, now called genes
Established the statistical laws governing them
Developed a basic understanding of genetics and inheritance

It took him 2 years to select the pea plant as his subject
Collected data for 10 years
Sample sizes were large; he tabulated results from 28,000 pea plants
Replicated his experiments
Analyzed his data with statistics using probability theory

Subsequent scientists have refined his conclusions and discovered the system of particulate heredity by units or genes, known to be nucleic acids - the substance of all life as science understands it.

Mendel understood that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Mendel did NOT base his studies on belief or ""Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"

The last two quotes are from Carl Sagan. ID seems to focus upon the latter, ignoring the former.

Nature [1 September 2005 Volume 437 Number 7055 pp1-168] has artcles obout the common chimapnzee and recent fossil dicovery. Also at nature.com/

More evidence for evolution!
Grumpy
To soloved and other suporters of ID

Here is a suprise for you, an evolutionista citing examples of Intellegent Design.

The only bovine in existance around the time of Jesus besides the American Buffalo was a now extinct critter called the auroc. This creature bore an amazing resemblance to the Asian Water Buffalo(actually an ox) though they are not directly related nor could they interbreed(parallel evolution to fill simular niches, but I digress). This cow existed unchanged throughout Europe, Asia and Africa for thousands upon thousands of years(again, the fossil record) until on an island nation which became England herders began a planned, systematic and well documented selective breeding program about 1000 years ago. The results you ask? Jerseys, Herefords, Guernseys(milk producing cows, many of which would die if not milked daily), Anguses(my favorite, meat producer extraordinaire, yum yum)which were actually developed in Scotland, Long Horns(developed by American herders to better fit the harsher conditions out West). There are other examples. These cows were so much better at food production that the auroc was abandoned world wide in less than 500 years. The only known natural descendant of the original is the Humped cow of India. And even it has been "messed with" by man. All it took was selecting for desirable traits and breeding to reinforce those traits. Nature does this as well but is much harsher in that those without traits that fit their environment tend to die.

Tens of thousands of years ago the only members of the canine genus were wolves. Timber, White, whatever, they were all wolves. Except Canus Dirus, it was a WOLF(200+ pounds of muscle and teeth that ran in packs, I want my mommy!!!). Intellegent, vicious yet sociable animals, wolves. At some time about then a man adopted one or more wolf pups(cats addopted men about then too, but that's a different story). I can't imagine they were easy to get along with when they reached adulthood(vicious, remember) and the new wolfowner probably had to club the more vicious individuals to death for hundreds of years thus selecting for the less violent(and smarter) packmembers. As the years progressed the owner of the now partially pacified pooches of the pack partook of a program of breeding particular pleasing puppies( say that three times real fast) to produce all the varieties of dog you see today. From Toys to Danes they all are directly descended from wolves with the ID of man. Before you mention that they could all interbreed, heres a mind picture for you. A Great Dane and a Chihuahua. Not pretty(nor possible, mechanically).

My third and final example, Horses. Noone can really say how long Horses and men have been codependent. Cave drawings tens of thousands of years old show both horses and primative cattle but the cattle, like as not, have arrows or spears stuck in them whereas the horses do not. Does this mean that the horse was the first domesticated animal? Who can tell, needs more study.( We did not domesticate cats, they enslaved us). The evolution of the Horse is one of the most well documented and well supported in the history of the science. From a creature the size of a medium size dog to the Percheron or Clydesdale we have found fossilized examples of all sizes and many variations and close related species( The Donkey and Zebra). And man had a big influence on that variation(The Pony, the Arabian and the aforemention draft animals the Percheron and Clydesdale, though the Percherons precursers were originally bred as war horses to carry a knight, his armor and weapons and, of course the horses armour. A mounted knight and his horse ready for war, not jousting, a sport, could weigh close to a ton and a half or even more, how would you like to stand in front of a few dozen of those charging you at full speed, armed only with a pointy stick called a pike? Ouch!!!) I have said all this to point out one of the best examples of the process of divergence of species going on right now. The horse and the donkey are in the process of differentiating. They can still interbreed and produce offspring but that offspring is always sterile. It is called a mule, in fact its name has become generic for any animal which is the result of breeding two diverging species that is always sterile. The Zebra, by the way, is a species of Donkey with a custom paint job.

I have blathered long enough. Coments?
SoLoved
QUOTE (Grumpy+Sep 2 2005, 04:15 PM)
To soloved and other suporters of ID

Here is a suprise for you, an evolutionista citing examples of Intellegent Design.

The only bovine in existance around the time of Jesus besides the American Buffalo was a now extinct critter called the auroc. This creature bore an amazing resemblance to the Asian Water Buffalo(actually an ox) though they are not directly related nor could they interbreed(parallel evolution to fill simular niches, but I digress). This cow existed unchanged throughout Europe, Asia and Africa for thousands upon thousands of years(again, the fossil record) until on an island nation which became England herders began a planned, systematic and well documented selective breeding program about 1000 years ago. The results you ask? Jerseys, Herefords, Guernseys(milk producing cows, many of which would die if not milked daily), Anguses(my favorite, meat producer extraordinaire, yum yum)which were actually developed in Scotland, Long Horns(developed by American herders to better fit the harsher conditions out West). There are other examples. These cows were so much better at food production that the auroc was abandoned world wide in less than 500 years. The only known natural descendant of the original is the Humped cow of India. And even it has been "messed with" by man. All it took was selecting for desirable traits and breeding to reinforce those traits. Nature does this as well but is much harsher in that those without traits that fit their environment tend to die.

Tens of thousands of years ago the only members of the canine genus were wolves. Timber, White, whatever, they were all wolves. Except Canus Dirus, it was a WOLF(200+ pounds of muscle and teeth that ran in packs, I want my mommy!!!). Intellegent, vicious yet sociable animals, wolves. At some time about then a man adopted one or more wolf pups(cats addopted men about then too, but that's a different story). I can't imagine they were easy to get along with when they reached adulthood(vicious, remember) and the new wolfowner probably had to club the more vicious individuals to death for hundreds of years thus selecting for the less violent(and smarter) packmembers. As the years progressed the owner of the now partially pacified pooches of the pack partook of a program of breeding particular pleasing puppies( say that three times real fast) to produce all the varieties of dog you see today. From Toys to Danes they all are directly descended from wolves with the ID of man. Before you mention that they could all interbreed, heres a mind picture for you. A Great Dane and a Chihuahua. Not pretty(nor possible, mechanically).

My third and final example, Horses. Noone can really say how long Horses and men have been codependent. Cave drawings tens of thousands of years old show both horses and primative cattle but the cattle, like as not, have arrows or spears stuck in them whereas the horses do not. Does this mean that the horse was the first domesticated animal? Who can tell, needs more study.( We did not domesticate cats, they enslaved us). The evolution of the Horse is one of the most well documented and well supported in the history of the science. From a creature the size of a medium size dog to the Percheron or Clydesdale we have found fossilized examples of all sizes and many variations and close related species( The Donkey and Zebra). And man had a big influence on that variation(The Pony, the Arabian and the aforemention draft animals the Percheron and Clydesdale, though the Percherons precursers were originally bred as war horses to carry a knight, his armor and weapons and, of course the horses armour. A mounted knight and his horse ready for war, not jousting, a sport, could weigh close to a ton and a half or even more, how would you like to stand in front of a few dozen of those charging you at full speed, armed only with a pointy stick called a pike? Ouch!!!) I have said all this to point out one of the best examples of the process of divergence of species going on right now. The horse and the donkey are in the process of differentiating. They can still interbreed and produce offspring but that offspring is always sterile. It is called a mule, in fact its name has become generic for any animal which is the result of breeding two diverging species that is always sterile. The Zebra, by the way, is a species of Donkey with a custom paint job.

I have blathered long enough. Coments?

What I heard from your story:

1. Evidence of man's tampering with creation for his benefit.
2. A horse is still a horse is still a horse, and a cow is still a cow, etc.
3. In the beginning, man was much better physical conditon than now.
4. You are trying to show examples of evolution - but the evolution you describe is all the result of man's effort.
5. Now how come apes or elephants are not doing this to other animals?
6. Why aren't animals evolving into a more advanced form on their own?
7. For that matter, why isn't evolution going backwards - what laws are there to state that a backwards type of evolution couldn't take place - at least temporarily? Survival of the fittest does not apply here. If we evolved from a tiny bacteria or organism then why aren't new animals and people evolving all the time - from the gazillions of bacteria floating all over the place??????????



The probability of Intelligent Design is worth investigating.

Hurricane Katrina is providing a huge lesson to theory of evolution.

Watch, wait, and learn:
1. How quickly evolution takes place, but yet nothing changes.
2. How the mind handles this situation.
a. From the perspecitive of the victims
b. To the perspective of those who are not victims
3. What role does the human spirit play in this?
4. What role does evolution play in this?
5. And a long list of other questions I haven't even thought of yet.

The evolutionist tries to dismiss ID as a religious based myth. The E theory is based on ABD (Anything But Design). It cannot be taken seriously until it has proven that it was not designed. The E theory must be backed by human politics - it certainly has the dna for it.

E cannot proclaim that ID is non-falsibiable and conclude that therefore it cannot be considered. You are not allowing for probabilities. Bad mistake.

Science is testable and repeatable, right? Evolutionists have made some pretty interesting claims about evolving creatures. Where are these tests? Why can't E reproduce some of these extinct creatures - E must certainly have the dna for them, right?

Evolutionists claim that ID is not testable and then out of the other side of their mouths say that they supposedly have tested it and proven it to be wrong. So, which is it?

What good is evolution anyway? Can you put it into practice in New Orleans?

Oh, and Grumpy, I'm glad you don't want us all to leave. I am getting an education in Science (maybe not here - but at least by looking up the facts elsewhere).

Which facts do not support ID or Creation?

Adoucette, if you don't want to rule out chance (evolution theory) - then why do you rule out the 'chance' of a designer? Hmmmmm?

I hope that this post does not sound harsh or arrogant, that is not my intent. I'm just asking questions and stating my thoughts.

rolleyes.gif SoLoved
island
QUOTE

Yeshua4real, I take it you are an adherent if the ID/CS faith.


I'm not, I'm a natural atheist.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Yeshua4real, I take it you are an adherent if the ID/CS faith.


I'm not, I'm a natural atheist.


So I will address one point made from the information from this site already posted once. 

" In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection -- how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. "

Teaching anyone how to recognize patterns in biological forms is highly subjective and not based upon anything other than a desire to find patterns. 



1) That isn't the way that I read it, and it appears that you had to willfully ignore the expressed method of discovery in order to dismiss it out of hand instead... in order to say that it's not based on anything other than a desire to find patterns.

2) Patterns in nature are the basis for all mathematical physics, so denying the validity of their useful existence is not scientific.

Your statements reek of an unscientific pre-disposition for prejudice in how you will be inclined to interpretat evidence.

I'd have to rule you out as an unbiased scientist.
MDT
The biggest problem with ID is that it requires one sacrifice their common sense. God gave people minds to think and reason. Why would he then tell us to bury our heads in the sands and not asked questions? If the leaders of ID can not provide those answers, are they the best choice for leading the ID movement?

The ID movement is smart because they don't provide anything tangible that can be debated. They use God like a smoke screen, and then sling mud hoping to keep the eyes focused away from them. It is like a polititian that has no value. His goal is to be elected by being the lesser of two evils.

Does ID have a open forum or is ID a dictatorship. At least the science community is secure enough to welcome debate. Science is like the USA maybe somewhat prejidice but open to diversity. While ID is Sadaam Hussein, dealing with anyone who goes against the program while taking advantage of a free and open culture.

I would like to request the ID people to invite the Evolutionist to question and critique ID on ID's own turf, in front of their followers. You guys should feel secure enough to withstand the light of reason. If it is God's will you will survive and prosper. Have faith or have fear. I beleive the truth is in the middle let us find common ground.
Grumpy
soloved wrote

QUOTE
1. Evidence of man's tampering with creation for his benefit.


No. Evidence of man's tampering with creatures for his benefit. Like grafting a gene from a firefly to a tobacco plant making it glow in the dark. It's been done.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1. Evidence of man's tampering with creation for his benefit.


No. Evidence of man's tampering with creatures for his benefit. Like grafting a gene from a firefly to a tobacco plant making it glow in the dark. It's been done.

2. A horse is still a horse is still a horse, and a cow is still a cow, etc.


But a horse is not a donkey(as it once was, they can interbreed) and their offspring is neither, it is a mule and cannot reproduce. A cow bred to produce milk cannot survive without daily milking by man. In the wild it would die of sepsis within days.

QUOTE
3. In the beginning, man was much better physical conditon than now.


In the beginning man did not exist(see below). Until about 500 million years ago there wasn't enough oxygen in the atmosphere to support him anyway.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
3. In the beginning, man was much better physical conditon than now.


In the beginning man did not exist(see below). Until about 500 million years ago there wasn't enough oxygen in the atmosphere to support him anyway.

4. You are trying to show examples of evolution - but the evolution you describe is all the result of man's effort.


Well DUH. You know what I mean?

QUOTE
5. Now how come apes or elephants are not doing this to other animals?


Brain capacity, lack of enough imagination, opposible thumbs and advanced language skills.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
5. Now how come apes or elephants are not doing this to other animals?


Brain capacity, lack of enough imagination, opposible thumbs and advanced language skills.

6. Why aren't animals evolving into a more advanced form on their own?


They are, you just don't live nearly long enough to see a measurable effect.

QUOTE
7. For that matter, why isn't evolution going backwards - what laws are there to state that a backwards type of evolution couldn't take place - at least temporarily? Survival of the fittest does not apply here. If we evolved from a tiny bacteria or organism then why aren't new animals and people evolving all the time - from the gazillions of bacteria floating all over the place??????????


There are no hard and fast laws in evolution. It sometimes happens fairly rapidly(a new strain of flu, drug resistant infectious bacteria, punctuated equalibria, etc.) and sometimes it happens slowly or not at all(alligators and crocidiles, sharks and rays they fit their niches so well there is little pressure to change.) Over the long term(millions of years) the organism better able to adapt to changes in enviroment(the more complex organisms) tend to survive better, the rachet effect which favors more adaptibility. An orginism may lose traits and go "backward" but in the long term the organism with more adaptive traits survive to reproduce more often( and that is the only "Meaning of Life" that counts, all else is gravy. As to the second part of the quote, it is obvious to me and others that the proponents of CS and ID have no coception of the stupendous amount of time represented by the evolution of the universe and our Earth. At the risk of repetition I present the timeline below:
:

3.5 billion years ago,in a hot spring or around a black smoker a protein (made from amino acids delivered by comets and shocked into peptides by the collision with the planets surface, as has been replicated in the laboritory) came into being which was able to assemble a copy of itself from the chemical soup it resided in.

If we use a 24 hour(midnight to midnight) clock to represrnt the 4.5 billion year history of the Earth this event occured at 9:00 in the morning.

The first multi-cellular life appears at 9:00 at night. It took about 2.25 billion years to go from the simple beginnings to what we would call a bacteria. This time was when RNA and DNA were evolved and was a major stepping stone for all that followed.

All the other animals and plants in the fossil record appeared in the last three hours of the 24 hr clock.

Primates appear at three minutes to midnight, man in the last 30 seconds.

This is the story of life on Earth that is amply supported by the evdence gathered by man in the last second of our 24 hrs. You can choose to ignore the evidence and believe any fairy tale you wish but it does not change what we know. Everything I have said in this post is supported by what we have found in the fossil record. It is not in question by any true scientist. We still have much to learn, we don't understand all the processes which caused evolution but no magic was involved, only natural processes
gadfly
Grumpy

You are too kind!

When considering an example of an orginism that may lose traits and go "backward" recall that in 1865 Gregory Mendel was a theologist using scientific method to publish "evidence for the discreteness and combinatorial rules of inherited traits"

ID adherents relative to Mendel have gone "backward".

From Nature [1 September 2005 Volume 437 Number 7055 pp1-168] [My apologies to Nature if not properly referenced]:

Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome The Chimpanzee Sequencing and Analysis Consortium

"Here we present a draft genome sequence of the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). Through comparison with the human genome, we have generated a largely complete catalogue of the genetic differences that have accumulated since the human and chimpanzee species diverged from our common ancestor, constituting approximately thirty-five million single-nucleotide changes, five million insertion/deletion events, and various chromosomal rearrangements. We use this catalogue to explore the magnitude and regional variation of mutational forces shaping these two genomes, and the strength of positive and negative selection acting on their genes. In particular, we find that the patterns of evolution in human and chimpanzee protein-coding genes are highly correlated and dominated by the fixation of neutral and slightly deleterious alleles. We also use the chimpanzee genome as an outgroup to investigate human population genetics and identify signatures of selective sweeps in recent human evolution.

More than a century ago Darwin and Huxley posited that humans share recent common ancestors with the African great apes. Modern molecular studies have spectacularly confirmed this prediction and have refined the relationships, showing that the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) and bonobo (Pan paniscus or pygmy chimpanzee) are our closest living evolutionary relatives. Chimpanzees are thus especially suited to teach us about ourselves, both in terms of their similarities and differences with human. For example, Goodall's pioneering studies on the common chimpanzee revealed startling behavioural similarities such as tool use and group aggressio. By contrast, other features are obviously specific to humans, including habitual bipedality, a greatly enlarged brain and complex language. Important similarities and differences have also been noted for the incidence and severity of several major human diseases"

"Higher Alu activity in humans. SINE (Alu) elements have been threefold more active in humans than chimpanzee (7,000 compared with 2,300 lineage-specific copies in the aligned portion), refining the rather broad range (2-7-fold) estimated in smaller studies. Most chimpanzee-specific elements belong to a subfamily (AluYc1) that is very similar to the source gene in the common ancestor. By contrast, most human-specific Alu elements belong to two new subfamilies (AluYa5 and AluYb8) that have evolved since the chimpanzee-human divergence and differ substantially from the ancestral source gene69. It seems likely that the resurgence of Alu elements in humans is due to these potent new source genes. However, based on an examination of available finished sequence, the baboon shows a 1.6-fold higher Alu activity relative to human new insertions, suggesting that there may also have been a general decline in activity in the chimpanzee."

One can speculate if the unusual knuckle walking of the pygmy chimpanzee is due to the loss of bipedalism. Some resaerchers suggest that bipedalism dates to a comman ancestor with the orangutan.
From Comparative Kinematics of Bipedalism in Bonobos (Pan paniscus) and Orangutans (Pongo pygmaeus) B. Hrvoj-Mihic etal
for real
Ok here is the real question.if chimps are 4% different than humans then what %are all other living being different?
5 year old logic
blink.gif Christians have recently been made to look like fools by the media and the scientific community.they are not backwater idoits.Evolution is the religion of humanism and it is losing it's grip.Much like poloticians instead of acknowledging the validity of thier oponents view assimilate it mock the source.(in doing so mocking themselves)
Many many very intellegent people believe in the creation model not simply because of the bible but because of the evidence wich has been presented.
As recent events have shown the scientific community will do anything to not face the possibility that they could be wrong.This isn't science,it is sick.It is the tactic of a selfish 5 year old .Sadly it's happened for eons.the same kind of Scientific Authorities have tried to destroy views they didn't like for eons.I am sure it would be impossibly hard to get honest scientist to admit there is validity .They would be black booked and mocked into oblivion all because a group of arrogent have no other purpose than to prove god can't exist.I challenge them to turn around and face reality.
adoucette
QUOTE (SoLoved+Sep 2 2005, 07:05 PM)
What I heard from your story:

6.  Why aren't animals evolving into a more advanced form on their own?

7.  For that matter, why isn't evolution going backwards - what laws are there to state that a backwards type of evolution couldn't take place - at least temporarily?  Survival of the fittest does not apply here.  If we evolved from a tiny bacteria or organism then why aren't new animals and people evolving all the time - from the gazillions of bacteria floating all over the place??????????




Well evolving into more advanced forms is a human conceit.

The most successful form of life on the planet is BACTERIA. They live in a greater range of places, in greater numbers and on a wider variety of "food" than any other species. Early in the earth's history their prodigous numbers changed the atmosphere from high in CO2 to high in O2, which in turn caused the evolution of oxygen tolerant forms of bacteria.

All animals since then have had to deal with bacteria and only evolved once they could "defend" themselves from this incredibly successful form of life.



The fact that the success of ONE minor branch of the animal kingdom was predominately due to greater mental abilities does not indicate that they are "more successful", or as you put it "more advanced".

The dinosaurs lived for hundreds of millions of years. Will man?

Maybe, but until we do, claims of being "more advanced" tend to be egotistic.

Which leads to the the answer to the last question, evolution fills niches both existing and as they change, since most are already filled by animals that are highly adapted to their space, absent an evironmental change, one would expect to see little if any change in the short time frames man has been cataloging them.


As to evolving "backward", well again this tends to be rare, for a number of reasons, but it does occur. The most common example would be the sea squirt.

They are solitary or colonial-dwelling saclike chordates of the class Ascidiacea. As adults they are pouch-shaped animals that attach to rocks or other base. Much like a clam they draw in food-carrying water through one siphon and expels it through another after straining it through numerous gill slits. The young are free-swimming tadpole-shaped organisms, which, unlike the adults, have a notochord. Somewhere along the way they "devolved" back to a more primitive structure.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE
Adoucette, if you don't want to rule out chance (evolution theory) - then why do you rule out the 'chance' of a designer? Hmmmmm?


I don't rule out the chance that there is a designer.

But you take it as a CERTAINTY.

For that you would need verifiable proof.

The theroy of Evolution explains the diversification of the species without NEEDING a designer.

But the theroy of Evolution CAN'T PROVE that there is no God.

Which is why the Vatican has no problem with evolution.

Arthur
ApeMan
Once again, a comment here from a Creationist that thinks thistopic is gettinga bit skewed with non-scientific arguments.

I think that part of the problemwith this whole debate is the overlap of terms and definitions.

"Evolution" is not a theory - it is a very large number of theories, each with a different body of evidence and different hypotheses, that happen to have similar implications. Whilst Darwin's "Origin of Species" may have been the first popular (and most culturally influential) evolutionary theory, it was not the first, and is not the only, theory that can be termed "evolution". Therefore when some people are arguing that "evolution" is a load of bunk, then they are probably thinking of a particular subset of evolutionary thinking, without stating such (as they may think that that subset equals the whole). Refutations then may come from a different subset of evolutionary thinking. It's like two people arguing in Italian and Latin; they're similar, but don't expectthe two to really understand each other.

Now, I said that there are many theories in evolutionary thought. A theory (from a scientific viewpoint, and I speak here as a physicist) looks at a available body of natural or experimental evidence, and proposes an explanation that "appears" to provide a "testable" explanation for that evidence. Many evolutionary theories definately fall into this category, in that evidence can be tested, experiements re-run, and the theory accurately predicts the outcome (remember that a theory that cannot predict the outcome of unknown results is not really a theory - it is simply a viewpoint, or an educated historical guess). Most evolutionary ideas are theories. Some, such as a "definitive" statement as to the origin of life, are likely to to be inherently untestable (as they deal with once-off events that cannot be repeated), and should more properly be considered as historical or legal arguements supported by scientific evidence (and I talk here as someone who has been working in law enforcement for the past decade).

It is important that we can separate the specific scientific theories in evolution from the historical arhuements.

Now, to Creation. As far as I see things (and I talk here as a Creationist), Creation is not a scientific theory, it is an historical argument supported by scientific evidence. It does not predicit anything. It does not enable experiemental results to be predicted prior to an experiement being conducted. Simply becase some experimental results agree with Creationism does not mean they were predicted by a creationist theory.

Intelligent Design is not a theory either. It is, more properly, a new set of tools that can be used to analyse scientific information to supply more supporting evidence (potentially) for Creationism. The only way in which ID could be thought of as a theory is that it says that a "proper" analysis of any natural organism or system will indicate Intelligent Design. Properly speaking, however, that is not a theory, it is a statement of faith (one which I happen to share, but I can discern the difference).

So strident claims from "Evolution" and "Creation" will continue to be nothing but noise unless tha dherents and opponents of each start to identify specifically what it is that they support or object to, so that the context of the arguements is valid.

For what it's worth...
Douglas Macary
God is actually composed of a matrix of subatomic particles embedded in the structure of spacetime. Theae particles emit and absorb virtual photons becoming essentially the neural circuity of a universe spanning ultraintelligent conscious mind. This mind can manipulate the particles of which it is composed, to produce all thje complexities of nature. As it develops into the fall future, it can even manipulate the forces of time, far intp both the future and back into the past to create its own begiining, the Big Bang. Alpha and Omega.

This is obviously fiction. My point is that given the presupposition that God exists, its easy to use the language of science to "flesh him out". You could teach that in a science classroom.

This is ID, an attempt to use scientific language without having to use the tools of science.

Sincerely

Doug Macary
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
I'm not, I'm a natural atheist.


Okay then, do you support or follow the stated beliefs of ID? If so, then you believe there is a designer to life. Since you claim to be an atheist, then I can only assume that you think the designer was a higher form of life i.e an E.T.

Also, please explain what you mean by "natural atheist".

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm not, I'm a natural atheist.


Okay then, do you support or follow the stated beliefs of ID? If so, then you believe there is a designer to life. Since you claim to be an atheist, then I can only assume that you think the designer was a higher form of life i.e an E.T.

Also, please explain what you mean by "natural atheist".

1)That isn't the way that I read it, and it appears that you had to willfully ignore the expressed method of discovery in order to dismiss it out of hand instead... in order to say that it's not based on anything other than a desire to find patterns.


And you have willingly ignored the quote my post was addressing specifically. It states “design detection - how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose."

Now unless you are will to ignore this stated foundation of ID you are missing the preconceived notion that adherents of ID follow. Also, I mentioned specifically addressing one point of the stated information from the ID website. Try not to take my comments out of context.

QUOTE
2)Patterns in nature are the basis for all mathematical physics, so denying the validity of their useful existence is not scientific.



And where did I say that designs were not valid or did not exist? Again, comment about my posts within the context stated. Let me be a bit more specific for you. Teaching anyone how to recognize patterns in biological forms specificaly to support the presumption of a intended design made by a hinger being is highly subjective and not based upon anything other than a desire to find patterns of said designer.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
2)Patterns in nature are the basis for all mathematical physics, so denying the validity of their useful existence is not scientific.



And where did I say that designs were not valid or did not exist? Again, comment about my posts within the context stated. Let me be a bit more specific for you. Teaching anyone how to recognize patterns in biological forms specificaly to support the presumption of a intended design made by a hinger being is highly subjective and not based upon anything other than a desire to find patterns of said designer.

3)Your statements reek of an unscientific pre-disposition for prejudice in how you will be inclined to interpretat evidence.


And you ignored or failed to understand my point. Supporters of ID seek out designs subjectively to support the idea of a designer and ignore anything that does nor fit or support that preconception. The is a prejudice and bias of what one finds from theists.

QUOTE
I'd have to rule you out as an unbiased scientist.


If blindly following ID is what you describe as being “unbiased”, then I suggest you study up on what rational thought it, naturalistic POV of life and its development through more down-to-Earth explanations such as evolution.

Right now would be a great time to have a grumpy witticism. rolleyes.gif
Grumpy
To Gene Splcer

Unfortunately my neice and soloved have used up my supply for tonight. Besides, I'm old and frail and need all the beauty sleep I can get(believe me). I will be back in the AM US Eastern time.

Good night all.
Zephir
QUOTE (Grumpy+Sep 3 2005, 03:47 AM)
To Gene Splcer

Unfortunately my neice and soloved have used up my supply for tonight. Besides, I'm old and frail and need all the beauty sleep I can get(believe me). I will be back in the AM US Eastern time.

Good night all.

Maybe the creationist concept will be soon even in much more deep troubles, because it seem the evolution is much more general concept of universe - even more then evolutionist suggested till now..
Grumpy
To island you stated

QUOTE
I'm a natural atheist


After you had said

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm a natural atheist


After you had said

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.


First some logic, try to follow along, it's short.
Intellegent Design infers the existence of an intellegent designer, point one.
Since the ID created the universe, he must be outside of nature, thus super(above or outside of)natural. point two.
A Supernatural Intellegent Designer is the definition of God, point three.
Therefore(here it comes, the big finish) YOU CANNOT BELIEVE IN ID AND BE AN ATHIEST(OF ANY KIND)PERIOD
Ibid: You are either a liar in the first quote(in this post) or you are lying about your support of ID. I, personally, believe you lied in the first quote, and your purpose was to try to decieve us into thinking you were a rational person and not a religious wacko. People who lie to me make me grumpy, people who think I'm stupid and will believe their transparent falsehoods make me angry, and stupid people just make me mad!

I really get tired of people who insult my intellegence by saying ID is not a religious concept. You people believe that you can remove any direct reference to God from the CS BS, call it ID, and people will be fooled. None of the scientists and teachers I know buy that CRAP(Creationist Recycled Air Pollution).
jwsee
Adoucette is correct
QUOTE
Well evolving into more advanced forms is a human conceit.

The most successful form of life on the planet is BACTERIA. They live in a greater range of places, in greater numbers and on a wider variety of "food" than any other species. Early in the earth's history their prodigous numbers changed the atmosphere from high in CO2 to high in O2, which in turn caused the evolution of oxygen tolerant forms of bacteria.

All animals since then have had to deal with bacteria and only evolved once they could "defend" themselves from this incredibly successful form of life.

The fact that the success of ONE minor branch of the animal kingdom was predominately due to greater mental abilities does not indicate that they are "more successful", or as you put it "more advanced".

The dinosaurs lived for hundreds of millions of years. Will man?

Maybe, but until we do, claims of being "more advanced" tend to be egotistic.

Which leads to the the answer to the last question, evolution fills niches both existing and as they change, since most are already filled by animals that are highly adapted to their space, absent an evironmental change, one would expect to see little if any change in the short time frames man has been cataloging them.


The main problem with human society is that we do not consciously realize that we were built for a specific purpose to survive and to reproduce. This thin layer of civilization we have built around ourselves does not remove these instinctive needs. We are as much an animal as the other animals on this planet. Our evolution simply took us in a different direction, ie cognitive problem solving. This ability has also caused us to believe that we are somewhat more special than other animals on this planet. You should all consider yourselves lucky that the bacteria do not consider revolting. If they decided that humans were no longer necessary then we as a species would be extinct within weeks. The only thing that makes us feel special is our arrogance. If it were not for society we would still be huddled into our little corners of our caves afraid of what goes bump in the night. Because most everything in nature is more lethal than we are. Until we start talking about invention. It is this trait that gave us a fighting chance against nature. That which we can not defeat we invent a tool or concept to give us that ability to overcome our problem. this hold true with death as well













Grumpy
To Ape Man

I read your post with interest and while you have a reasoned arguement I think there are several points you are confused about.

QUOTE
"Evolution" is not a theory - it is a very large number of theories, each with a different body of evidence and different hypotheses, that happen to have similar implications. Whilst Darwin's "Origin of Species" may have been the first popular (and most culturally influential) evolutionary theory, it was not the first, and is not the only, theory that can be termed "evolution".


We must always be precise in our language because laymen can be confused about the meaning of words, especially "theory" as it pertains to science.
The theory of evolution does consist of several parts. The first and most important is the FACT that evolution has occured throughout the history of life on Earth. This FACT is so well supported by the findings of so many scientists(paleoentologists, anthropologists, geologists etc.) that to deny it is equivalent of denying the sunrise, that is how certain we are of these FACTS. Noone who denies these facts will be taken seriously by the scientific community.
Next comes the theories you spoke of. A scientific theory is a "story" that explains the facts you have found, that withstands testing and peer review, is falsifiable(meaning that if I can show verifiable, repeatable facts that contradict the theory, the theory is invalid or "false") and is supported by the evidence(it fits). There are many theories explaining the processes of evolution and, because evolution has many, varied ways of proceeding, most of those theories are valid. scientists will always argue over the precise mechanisms of evolution but none of that changes the FACT that evolution occured.
Next, a step further down in terms of certainty, is the hypothesis. An H like a T is a story that seems to fit a series of facts. It,in effect, is a canidate to become a T but has not been tested,peer reviewed, experimentally repeated nor is it as well supported by factual evidence. It takes a lot of hard scientific work(Doctoral Theses, experimentation, research and arguement with fellow scientist(peer review) before an H can evolve into a T) Most Hs never become Ts(It only take one contrary fact(a falsification) to stop it).

Which brings us to Intellegent Design(or, more accurately Creationism Light,less religion, no taste)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"Evolution" is not a theory - it is a very large number of theories, each with a different body of evidence and different hypotheses, that happen to have similar implications. Whilst Darwin's "Origin of Species" may have been the first popular (and most culturally influential) evolutionary theory, it was not the first, and is not the only, theory that can be termed "evolution".


We must always be precise in our language because laymen can be confused about the meaning of words, especially "theory" as it pertains to science.
The theory of evolution does consist of several parts. The first and most important is the FACT that evolution has occured throughout the history of life on Earth. This FACT is so well supported by the findings of so many scientists(paleoentologists, anthropologists, geologists etc.) that to deny it is equivalent of denying the sunrise, that is how certain we are of these FACTS. Noone who denies these facts will be taken seriously by the scientific community.
Next comes the theories you spoke of. A scientific theory is a "story" that explains the facts you have found, that withstands testing and peer review, is falsifiable(meaning that if I can show verifiable, repeatable facts that contradict the theory, the theory is invalid or "false") and is supported by the evidence(it fits). There are many theories explaining the processes of evolution and, because evolution has many, varied ways of proceeding, most of those theories are valid. scientists will always argue over the precise mechanisms of evolution but none of that changes the FACT that evolution occured.
Next, a step further down in terms of certainty, is the hypothesis. An H like a T is a story that seems to fit a series of facts. It,in effect, is a canidate to become a T but has not been tested,peer reviewed, experimentally repeated nor is it as well supported by factual evidence. It takes a lot of hard scientific work(Doctoral Theses, experimentation, research and arguement with fellow scientist(peer review) before an H can evolve into a T) Most Hs never become Ts(It only take one contrary fact(a falsification) to stop it).

Which brings us to Intellegent Design(or, more accurately Creationism Light,less religion, no taste)

Now, to Creation. As far as I see things (and I talk here as a Creationist), Creation is not a scientific theory, it is an historical argument supported by scientific evidence. It does not predicit anything. It does not enable experiemental results to be predicted prior to an experiement being conducted. Simply becase some experimental results agree with Creationism does not mean they were predicted by a creationist theory


I cannot say it better except it is a religious arguement not suported by any scientific evidence.

QUOTE
Intelligent Design is not a theory either. It is, more properly, a new set of tools that can be used to analyse scientific information to supply more supporting evidence (potentially) for Creationism. The only way in which ID could be thought of as a theory is that it says that a "proper" analysis of any natural organism or system will indicate Intelligent Design. Properly speaking, however, that is not a theory, it is a statement of faith (one which I happen to share, but I can discern the difference).


Again, well said, except it is a missuse of the tools of science and as a misuse, cannot provide valid supporting evidence.

As a scientist I am not concerned with other peoples religious beliefs. I have my own view, Atheism, which is the lack of belief in anything supernatural, but I would not try to "prove" that there is no God(you cannot prove a negative anyway). We would have no conflict if I agree not to come to your church and force you to teach science and you agree not to come to my science class and force me to teach your religion.(why cant we all just get along?)

Once again Ape Man, well done.
island
"i" wrote:
I'm not, I'm a natural atheist.

GeneSplicer wrote:
Okay then, do you support or follow the stated beliefs of ID? If so, then you believe there is a designer to life. Since you claim to be an atheist, then I can only assume that you think the designer was a higher form of life i.e an E.T.


No, a designer isn't necessary if the algorithm is inherent.


GeneSplicer wrote:
Also, please explain what you mean by "natural atheist".

We know that the cause for every other effect is natural, so it requires an unfounded leap of faith to presume otherwise.


"i" wrote:
1)That isn't the way that I read it, and it appears that you had to willfully ignore the expressed method of discovery in order to dismiss it out of hand instead... in order to say that it's not based on anything other than a desire to find patterns.

GeneSplicer wrote:
And you have willingly ignored the quote my post was addressing specifically. It states “design detection - how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose."

No, I didn't, and what are you talking about???... because I included that very statement in my quoted text as the "expressed methodology". Why would you deny that when it was the very point that I was addressing? Do you read anything that's written, or do you just not bother since you think that you've already got all the answers?


GeneSplicer wrote:
Now unless you are will to ignore this stated foundation of ID you are missing the preconceived notion that adherents of ID follow.

Again... what are you talking about?


GeneSplicer wrote:
Also, I mentioned specifically addressing one point of the stated information from the ID website. Try not to take my comments out of context.

Try NOT denying the information that's actually contained in the context and you might be actually be amazed by some of the stuff that you read.


"i" wrote:
2)Patterns in nature are the basis for all mathematical physics, so denying the validity of their useful existence is not scientific.

GeneSplicer wrote:
And where did I say that designs were not valid or did not exist? Again, comment about my posts within the context stated.

So were mine, and I was VERY specific, so if you'd carefully read what was written then you should know that. Let's see...


GeneSplicer wrote:
Let me be a bit more specific for you. Teaching anyone how to recognize patterns in biological forms specificaly to support the presumption of a intended design made by a hinger being is highly subjective and not based upon anything other than a desire to find patterns of said designer.

Nope, you obviously can't read, because the ABOVE QUOTED expressed method for discovery includes more than... 'not anything other than desire'.

"i" wrote:
3)Your statements reek of an unscientific pre-disposition for prejudice in how you will be inclined to interpretat evidence.


GeneSplicer wrote:
And you ignored or failed to understand my point.

No, you failed to recognize, (willfully ignored), that there was a stated method for discovery included within the quoted stament.


GeneSplicer wrote:
Supporters of ID seek out designs subjectively to support the idea of a designer and ignore anything that does nor fit or support that preconception.

Right, and NeoDarwinists deny and downplay the significance of any and all evidence that supports anything other than purely accidental coincidence, so you're in equally ignorant good company.


GeneSplicer wrote:
The is a prejudice and bias of what one finds from theists.

And NeoDarwinists, as well. How did Lynn Marguillis put it as keynote speaker at the last evolutioary conference?... "I'm definitely a darwinist... although I don't believe that variation is blind... unlike those... NeoDarwinist bullies."

"i" wrote"
I'd have to rule you out as an unbiased scientist.


GeneSplicer wrote:
If blindly following ID is what you describe as being “unbiased”, then I suggest you study up on what rational thought it, naturalistic POV of life and its development through more down-to-Earth explanations such as evolution.

And I'd suggest that you dump the preconceived prejudice and address their point instead of simply claiming that it... 'isn't based on anything other than desire'... which, like I said... isn't the way that I read it as an honest scientist.


Genesplicer wrote:
Right now would be a great time to have a grumpy witticism.

Let's just hope that it would be aimed at your open denial of the stated claims.



I agree with MDT... and Lynn Marguillis:

MDT wrote:
I beleive the truth is in the middle let us find common ground.
island
QUOTE (Grumpy+Sep 3 2005, 02:47 PM)



To island you stated


QUOTE
I'm a natural atheist


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm a natural atheist



After you had said


QUOTE
The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.



First some logic, try to follow along, it's short.



SNIP!... smartass
Grumpy
5 year old wrot

Christians have recently been made to look like fools by the media and the scientific community.they are not backwater idoits.Evolution is the religion of humanism and it is losing it's grip.Much like poloticians instead of acknowledging the validity of thier oponents view assimilate it mock the source.(in doing so mocking themselves)
Many many very intellegent people believe in the creation model not simply because of the bible but because of the evidence wich has been presented.
As recent events have shown the scientific community will do anything to not face the possibility that they could be wrong.This isn't science,it is sick.It is the tactic of a selfish 5 year old .Sadly it's happened for eons.the same kind of Scientific Authorities have tried to destroy views they didn't like for eons.I am sure it would be impossibly hard to get honest scientist to admit there is validity .They would be black booked and mocked into oblivion all because a group of arrogent have no other purpose than to prove god can't exist.I challenge them to turn around and face reality.

HOLY CRAP

Hundreds
Of
Lame
Yahoos

Creating
Reams of
Arguments that are
Pointless

Christians dont need our help to look like fools(Pat Robertson)
Evolution is not a religion, it is a fact.
Many intelligent people do believe theCS BS, they are missinformed and in error.
The scientific community faces the possibility of being wrong every day, it's part of the scientific method called Falsification. Look it up.
Scientific Authorities trying to prove your ideas wrong is also part of the scientific method called Peer Review. Look that up too.
Science has no motivation nor any mechanism to prove God does not exist(noone can prove a negative anyway). I cannot prove that Big Foot does not exist but until someone provides positive proof that he does I will not be expecting that he will jump from behind the next tree and say"BOO".
Facing Reality is precisely what science is all about!!!!!
Grumpy
To island

I am not a smart ***(though your half right)

I,sir, am an *** HOLE

A
Senior citizen
Sitting at

Home
On
Laborday and
Enjoying it.
island
QUOTE (Grumpy+Sep 3 2005, 06:01 PM)
To island

I am not a smart ***(though your half right)

I,sir, am an *** HOLE

A
Senior citizen
Sitting at

Home
On
Laborday and
Enjoying it.

The first sign of an honest scientist is one that admits when they've leaped before they looked, and so I'll gladly discuss anything that you'd like to rephrase, for as long as this remains the case.

... and stay off the road during rush hour since you never have anyplace to be, okay?... biggrin.gif
island
QUOTE (jwsee+Sep 3 2005, 03:59 PM)

The main problem with human society is that we do not consciously realize that we were built for a specific purpose to survive and to reproduce.


That's really narrow thinking. Have you ever looked around you to see how the stuff that we do compares to the stuff that other stuff does... in terms of the physics, I mean... ? If "we're built for a specific purpose"... then this would surely have something to do with the stuff that we do with the capabilities that survival and "intelligence" enables... other than just eat-n-screw, I mean.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archi...9/30/2003204990

QUOTE

This thin layer of civilization we have built around ourselves does not remove these instinctive needs. We are as much an animal as the other animals on this planet. Our evolution simply took us in a different direction, ie cognitive problem solving.


Yes, but when was the last time that you saw other animals making real, massive particles from the negative energy of the quantum vacuum?... which DIRECTLY affects the BALANCE of our FLAT universe with RELATIVE significance, BTW... What high-energy physics capabilities do they have that only black holes and Supernovae can duplicate... ?... albeit far-LESS efficiently, energy-wise.

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/209/mar31/anthropic.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

This thin layer of civilization we have built around ourselves does not remove these instinctive needs. We are as much an animal as the other animals on this planet. Our evolution simply took us in a different direction, ie cognitive problem solving.


Yes, but when was the last time that you saw other animals making real, massive particles from the negative energy of the quantum vacuum?... which DIRECTLY affects the BALANCE of our FLAT universe with RELATIVE significance, BTW... What high-energy physics capabilities do they have that only black holes and Supernovae can duplicate... ?... albeit far-LESS efficiently, energy-wise.

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/209/mar31/anthropic.html


This ability has also caused us to believe that we are somewhat more special than other animals on this planet.


Or more naturally preferred in the thermodynamic process... aka "entropic preference".

Schneider, Eric D. and James J. Kay, "Life as a manifestation of the second law of thermodynamics." Mathematical and Computer Modelling 19(6-8): 25-48.
http://www.fes.uwaterloo.ca/u/jjkay/pubs/Life_as/lifeas.pdf

QUOTE

You should all consider yourselves lucky that the bacteria do not consider revolting.  If they decided that humans were no longer necessary then we as a species would be extinct within weeks. The only thing that makes us feel special is our arrogance. If it were not for society we would still be huddled into our little corners of our caves afraid of what goes bump in the night. Because most everything in nature is more lethal than we are. Until we start talking about invention. It is this trait that gave us a fighting chance against nature. That which we can not defeat we invent a tool or concept to give us that ability to overcome our problem. this hold true with death as well.


Bacteria don't think, they do what the conditions merrit, just like humans, the flaw in your logic occurs when your "free-thinking" arrogance enables you to separate humans from the rest of nature to enable you to believe that human cognitive abilities separate us from the process to reflect something that's disassociated from the same physics that produces the predisposition that fungi have for making "fairy-rings".

Eric D. Schneider and Dorion Sagan: "Into The Cool" - Energy Flow, Thermodynamics and Life"
http://www.intothecool.com/

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASYMTRANS.html

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/c...f/leastact.html
ApeMan
Grumpy,

My next statements are prefaced with the assumption that a questioning of the facts of a case, or the questioning of someones interpretation of the facts, is never out of order, so long as the questions are not specious, inflammatory or irrelevant.

You stated...
QUOTE
The theory of evolution does consist of several parts. The first and most important is the FACT that evolution has occured throughout the history of life on Earth. This FACT is so well supported by the findings of so many scientists(paleoentologists, anthropologists, geologists etc.) that to deny it is equivalent of denying the sunrise, that is how certain we are of these FACTS.


Can you clarify what you consider to be FACTS, and what are, in fact (pun intentded), interpretations based on observed facts?

Firstly, the existence of the fossil record (for example) is a fact. Indisputable, verifiable, fact. The biological similarity between the DNA (in terms of base-pairs, patterns, etc) of various species is a fact. The variation in finch species in the Galapogas Islands is a fact.

I agree with you that if I dispute that the above exist, then I might as well start wearing an aluminium foil pyramid on my head right now to prevent the Government finding out that I am on to their Secret.

What I might question, however, is the way in which someone puts various facts together to come up with a theory that explains the existence of those facts. So far as I can tell (please correct me if you have found out stuff I haven't) no one to date has yet been able to observe or reproduce an example of macro-evolution (and I here might as well use the CS term speciation) in action, precisely becuase of the time spans involved. NOte that I am not saying here it never happened, but that it has not been observed or reproduced.

Therefore, would not the statement that the evolutionary explanation for speciation (the old fish to mammal progression) is still a theory, because it provides an explanation for observed facts, without itself BEING an oberved fact?

Just to re-iteerate, I am not here attacking yours or anyone else's position, mainly because I am trying clarify what that position is (and even afterwards, since I'm a pretty non-confrontational sort of guy).

I find arguing about proven facts irritating, but I find discussing a topic when there is little, if any, clarification about the parameters of the terms used, frustrating to the extreme.

So, to summarise, would you agree that..
a) The physical, biological, chemical, etc. signatures, artifacts, remains, molecules, etc., are all facts, as are repeated, observed processes.
cool.gif A model that fits those facts together in a mostly coherent way that may be able to explain or predict the behaviour or existence of as yet unknown facts, is a theory and not a fact?

If you do not agree, I would be interested in finding out why (since by my definition above, I think that evolutionary speciation is a theory - and recall that I think that CS is not even that).

My two cents worth for the day (and with inflation, who knows...)
Grumpy
To Ape Man

I find nothing in your post that is in error.

A+

Good Job
ApeMan
Grumpy,

Wow, I feel like I'm back in school (warm fuzzy feeling....)

Okay, if we can agree with the above defintiions of facts and theories, then I would suggest that MOST of the argument between INTELLIGENT people on both sides of the CS / E debate are to do with the theories, not the facts. Far too often an eolutionary proponent will make some claim in relation to the fossil record, and in refutation a creationist will cite the third law of thermodynamics. Both are facts, but not related to each other. The only rational, sinsible debate that can occur is when the FACTS are examined, and the THEORIES are debated.

So, before I make any more statements, I'd like to respond to a couple of your previous comments, to clarify things...

You said...
QUOTE
We would have no conflict if I agree not to come to your church and force you to teach science and you agree not to come to my science class and force me to teach your religion.(why cant we all just get along?)


I agree that creationism (in it's current format, certainly) should not be taught in science class. It is not a scientific theory, it is an inference drawn from certain facts based upon a religious predisposition.

You also said...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We would have no conflict if I agree not to come to your church and force you to teach science and you agree not to come to my science class and force me to teach your religion.(why cant we all just get along?)


I agree that creationism (in it's current format, certainly) should not be taught in science class. It is not a scientific theory, it is an inference drawn from certain facts based upon a religious predisposition.

You also said...
Christians dont need our help to look like fools(Pat Robertson)
Evolution is not a religion, it is a fact.
Many intelligent people do believe theCS BS, they are missinformed and in error.
The scientific community faces the possibility of being wrong every day, it's part of the scientific method called Falsification. Look it up.


Would you not agree, based on my previous post, that evolution (to use a broad term that may be a bit too broad) is not a fact, it is a theory (or group of theories) that appears to adequately explain a large number of facts (as distinct from being a fact in and of itself)??

When we combine the two previous qutoes together, I think that the common response from many creationists to the "don't teach that in my school" line is to ask the following question (which I would be interested in hearing your response to)...

Why is evolution taught as a fact, and not as a theory? You own comments indicate that evolution has been taught with such an influential cultutal message that most people indisputably refer to it as a fact.

BTW, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity are also theories, and are taught as such, so teaching something identified as a theory is not a criticism.





Grumpy
Ape Man

You asked


QUOTE
Would you not agree, based on my previous post, that evolution (to use a broad term that may be a bit too broad) is not a fact, it is a theory (or group of theories) that appears to adequately explain a large number of facts (as distinct from being a fact in and of itself)??


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Would you not agree, based on my previous post, that evolution (to use a broad term that may be a bit too broad) is not a fact, it is a theory (or group of theories) that appears to adequately explain a large number of facts (as distinct from being a fact in and of itself)??


Why is evolution taught as a fact, and not as a theory? You own comments indicate that evolution has been taught with such an influential cultutal message that most people indisputably refer to it as a fact.


As I said in my post

QUOTE
The theory of evolution does consist of several parts. The first and most important is the FACT that evolution has occured throughout the history of life on Earth. This FACT is so well supported by the findings of so many scientists(paleoentologists, anthropologists, geologists etc.) that to deny it is equivalent of denying the sunrise, that is how certain we are of these FACTS. Noone who denies these facts will be taken seriously by the scientific community.



The sentence underlined above is the part of evolution that qualifies as fact. In the rest of your quote you are correct. We need to be able to make precise distinctions such as this to scotch any wedges a layman CS BS or CS light(ID) proponent will misuse to say "It's all just theories". A definition that does not include this distinction is too "broad" and leaves a false impression in a layman's mind that scientists are uncertain of their facts when nothing could be further from the truth.In the struggle between science and pseudo-science the least misunderstanding by the uneducated will be twisted to serve the political and religious purposes of the CS BS. That is why we are correct to teach that the evolution of life on Earth is a fact but the theories that explain the processes and causes of that fact are constantly being tested, peer reviewed and subject to falsification(just one fact that contradicts a theory makes it invalid, or "false"). This is what makes a science different from a belief or religion.






Grumpy
Ape Man

By the way an example of species divergence that is occurring today is the horse and the donkey. They were once the same species( they can interbreed). But they have diverged enough that the offspring of that interbreeding is sterile(the mule) and cannot breed at all. This is an example of differentation on the level of DNA.

A chihuahua and a wolf still share the vast majority of their DNA but the wolf would consider the C a snack not a mate. This is an example of physical traits separating an otherwise geneticly simular species. Separate paths of mutation will eventually lead them to a condition like the horse and donkey and will also lead both pairs down different evolutionary paths. From such small steps larger differences accumulate and this is evolution. Large differences require large amounts of time(as we experience time) but 3.5 billion years is an extremely large amount of time.
ApeMan
Grumpy,

The example of the donkey and the horse you refer to is a perfect example of speciation, which will quite possibly (many generations from now) lead to non-breeding species. With that I don't think I, nor any other CS person, would have an issue.

Where the difference in interpretation comes is, I believe, in the inferences drawn from the evidence. The primary reason why I have always felt a little bit intellectually uncomfortable with macroevolution (by which I refer to the complexification of species, as opposed to their diversification) is that I was always taught that extrapolation is an extremely risky business, and because of the time scales involved, much of evolution has to be, by it's nature, extrapolatory.

I do not think that extrapolation invalidates anything, just that it signifies that caution needs to be taken with the process.

For example, it is easy and simple to identify examples of modern speciation (horse and donkey being case in point, dog breeds being another). The mechanism by which this happens is also (or so I believe) well understood, in that different genes are reinforced or eradicated due to selective (man-interfered or natural selection) in the population, until such time as certain genes become predominant within a sub-population, sufficient to identify them as a distinct sub-population. If the diversification, or concentration, of genes within two sub-populations becomes extreme, then there will be insufficient common genes to make interbreeding likely to be successful (although from some of the mongrels I have seen, the drift would have to be pretty large).

The above phenomenon is well understood, documented, repeatable and verifiable. Speciation exists.

The primary CS statement about speciation (as I understand it) is that the genetic variation occurs solely within the existing population using existing genetic information. The observed, repeatable and verifiable evidence of speciation has not (to date) involved the introduction of viable genetic information that alters a species essential characteristics.

The macroevolution theory (summarised) is that the above process (adding in mutation rates, environmental factors, etc) is that given sufficiently long time periods (for which evidence is provided by various radio-dating methods) that speciation will result in macro changes.

Now I agree that a great deal of evidence has been compiled to support that view. However (and here the law enforcement background comes in) the evidence is all circumstantial. In other words, it is not observed or repeatable. Now, just because I say that the evidence is circumstantial doesn't invalidate it at all, it merely identifies what "type" of evidence it is.

I think (from reading both your posts and my own) that the primary point of disagreement between our two views on this particular issue is that I consider the evidence to be facts in and of themselves (eg. the fossil record, DNA similarities, speciation), whereas (it seems) that the inferences drawn from those facts (theories or hypotheses) seem to be considered as evolutionary facts also.

For example, it is undeniable that if certain "chains" of fossil records are placed together, then it is possible to draw the inference (based on phsyiological data, dating data, and for all I know other types of data as well) that this "chain" represents an evolutionary progression. This is a valid inference, and certainly appears to be supported by most (if not all) of the available evidence. That means that the inference is a strong theory. It does not, however, mean that the inference is a fact. It MIGHT be true, but then again, in might not be. Or it may be true in some parts of the theory, and in need of work in others. That's why it's a theory.

In case you're wondering why I am laboring so much over this separation between facts and theories (and I do go on) is that in my experience almost all the main problems involved with communication (any type, not just scientific discussion) involves some basic misunderstandings, usually involving language or terminology.

That's why I say that you seem to be referring to as "evolution has occurred" as a fact, seems to me to be more properly termed a theory, in that it is a hypothesis drawn from circumstantial evidence.

QUOTE
Separate paths of mutation will eventually lead them to a condition like the horse and donkey and will also lead both pairs down different evolutionary paths. From such small steps larger differences accumulate and this is evolution.


The above is a theoretical statement in that the phrase "from such small steps larger differences accumulate" is hypothetical, in that it has not been directly tested. It might be true, but it has not been proven.

Keep in mind that I am asking all this in the honest light of inquiry, not as an evangelistic exercise. To date I have felt no cognitive dissonance between my ability to think rationally, and the theories I think are more valid. If I become convinced that evolutionary theory is the most valid theory available, then I sincerely hope that I would be intellectually honest enough to deal with the implications of that. So remember that whlist from your viewpoint I may be mistaken, I am neither wilfully ignorant nor stupid. I believe the true spirit of scientific inquiry is the honest search for objective truth, without fear or favour to religious, political, cultural or economic dictates [three cheers for Copernicus].
Grumpy
To Ape Man

You and I are two people who seem to be traveling toward the same goal, just on slightly different paths. That is perfectly ok, that's how maps are made and maps are of great value for others seeking the same destination.

When I look at the series of skeletons from Eonimus through many intermediate forms to the modern Horse I do not have to interpret to see the progression. I know that they do not tell the whole story but the fact that evolution occured throughout that progression is as self evident as a series of tire marks leading to a car in the ditch. This is one of the best known series of fossil evidence but it is far from the only one in the record.

If you were near sighted and saw a Tyranasaurus and an Alosaurus side by side you would think you were seeing two of the same animal. Bipedal, 15 to 20 feet tall and teeth on one end, tail on the other, bad attitude all in between. But the closer you looked, the more differences you would see, like distant cousins instead of brothers, until, when you got real closeSNAP oops, too close!. In the fossil record, of course they are seperated by millions of years but it is evident that despite their differences they are related species descended from common ancesters.

These examples and many, many others are why I can say that the fossil record shows that evolution has occured and that that fact is self evident.

Of course all changes occur within the genetic legacy left to the organism by it's forebearers. We would not expect to see a mouse evolve into a lizard. CS adherents point to this fact and say changes occur only within their "kinds". This is true only if you start with the now and look to the future. And if the world were only 6000 years old(as CS contends) it would be true. But the world is close to 4.5 billion years old, life close to 3.5 billion and there have been many different kinds of "kinds" which, given enough time, became many different kinds of kinds of "kinds"( oh I've gotten a cramp). And on the 24 hour clock(representing 4.5 billion years) 6000 years is less than a single second. And. as the mighty Oak grows from a simple seed to spread many branches, life spread from a simple begining to the many species of organisms we see today and this spread from simple to complex is self evident without interpretation. So, yes, I can say that the fact that evolution occured is well established and not circumstantial.
GeneSplicer
I hope all had a good weekend.

Island,

I think Grumpy has addressed your posts quite effectively, but you seem not to have responded to him in detail, other than a personal comment. Can you respond in a rational and unemotional way? Let us see.

Your statements are in conflict. You claim to be an atheist yet you support ID.

No matter how you wish to equivocate, ID breaks down to a belief that there are designs within living organisms that, by their very existence, are proof of a designer. The argument is not over the existence of the designs nor is the argument over what others have stated about evolution, Darwinism or Neo-Darwinism.

Now even if you try to remove any and all religious aspects from the foundation of ID and claim something not in the realm of the supernatural is the designer, you still have the claim and belief of a designer.

It is inseparable in the foundation of ID that there is some intelligence behind the form and functions in the various biological entities on this planet. This goes beyond the simple idea of seeding this planet with life. ID claims that some intelligence was active in the design and positive (as in more advanced design) evolutionary progress of life on this planet.

Intellectual dishonesty, or willful ignorance, as you put it, would be a person claiming not to be a theist supporting an ideology that is based and operated on the theistic principal of a designer.

ID and CS are of not based in science, but simply and attempt to legitimize theism and try to interject such pseudoscience back into government schools.

If you wish to argue that ID is somehow a valid form of science, please do so. All we have had so far for proof is religious quotes and the ultimate reduction of ID to it’s theological roots. Theology is not science.
Steveo
There are several things about how this arguement has gone in the few days that I have missed that is bothering me. One is how a few people are quick to conclude and pigeon hole people and their beliefs based on one or two responses that don't even mention which way their beliefs go. So before I continue I would like to state now, and I will state again later, that I have no religious beliefs or affiliations and I am a strong supporter of Evolution. After stating this however, I do want to correct a few things my fellow Evolution supporters are mistaken on, and this is mainly the scientific method, and the use of the word FACT. In science FACT is a very dangerous word to use. It should be used to describe a consistent result on a repeatable experiment. In other words, the 'facts' would be observations and data. Evolution is not a fact! The fossil record is a fact. What does the fossil record tell us on an unbiased view? It tells us that fossils are showing slight variation over time in one direction, be it linearly, parabolic, etc... The fossil record supports evolution, and it definitely makes sense (at least to me) that the fossil record is strong evidence to support evolution, however one can not call evolution fact from this.
This misuse of the term fact reminds me of something I witnessed in an anthropology class. Here in brief is what this anthrolopy professor said. "In a cave we found bones and we found remnants of fire, so it is obvious that people cooked food in the cave." Now, I won't deny that this is a very resonable conclusion, hell, probably the right one, but from the information provided, the only things that are facts are that there was bones found in the cave, and fire remnants found in the cave. How they got there is entirely speculation, and theory, which is also what evolution is. It is a very convincing theory I feel, and many of us on here feel the same, but lets not get careless with our use of language, even though I am sure I could be caught being careless very often also, lets try our best.
I think it was Grumpy who made the logical explanation that ID = religion through a few steps. Except I don't believe that believing in a supernatural being neccessarily constitutes religion. Maybe some dictionary will tell me contrary, but I feel that religion is more than just believing in god. Its also living your life in a certain way to please this god. If you, hypothetically, believe in a cosmic creator (as Einstein did) but do not live your life in a way that would differ if you did not believe in a cosmic creator then I do not believe it constitutes religion. This is all my opinion, but I do feel there is a difference.

Now there are still a few people trying to claim that ID is science, which it is not. And I must say I am annoyed, yet impressed with Soloved right now. Someone told the story of how horses and cows have evolved quickly with the aid of humans. I would say this constitutes an experiment on evolution that was conducted over generations, but Soloved has pointed out that our experiment is also "intelligent design", so we are going to probably fall victim to this little annoyance anytime we conduct an experiment to test a prediction of evolution. However this is still not disproving evolution, and there has yet to be a credible arguement to disprove evolution on these 19 or so pages of posts. See, thats the problem, evolution has stood the test of time.

Now, how could ID possibly become science? Some of you hardliner anti ID's are going to say this is impossible, but I think it might be possible (but will never happen in reality). So, lets say that we use a creator as an axiom for our theory. Now we need to use logic to build up our theory. How did the creator make the universe, how did he make life, etc... Now, these are tough questions, possibly impossible to answer (most likely). But people have researched questions like this with "intelligently designed" systems before. Look at Stone Henge, which was thought by many to be made by aliens or something. It was then found that it could possiblily be made by humans with some incredible ingeniuty. Same with the Pyramids.

And lastly (even though it should be clear that I support evolution and am NOT religious or believe in god) I do NOT believe in god, and I DO support evolution.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
There are several things about how this arguement has gone in the few days that I have missed that is bothering me. One is how a few people are quick to conclude and pigeon hole people and their beliefs based on one or two responses that don't even mention which way their beliefs go.


That is why I ask questions to verify what a person believes. Stating you are an atheist or a xian or a lucifarian (hat-tip dCalvin) is only a general base of reference. Even being a supporter of ID can only be use to imply a few generalizations based on the common statements made by such ideologies. I think it is safe to say that none of us think or believe exactly the same thing in every regard. Even soloved and dCalvin, both theists, differ somewhat.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There are several things about how this arguement has gone in the few days that I have missed that is bothering me. One is how a few people are quick to conclude and pigeon hole people and their beliefs based on one or two responses that don't even mention which way their beliefs go.


That is why I ask questions to verify what a person believes. Stating you are an atheist or a xian or a lucifarian (hat-tip dCalvin) is only a general base of reference. Even being a supporter of ID can only be use to imply a few generalizations based on the common statements made by such ideologies. I think it is safe to say that none of us think or believe exactly the same thing in every regard. Even soloved and dCalvin, both theists, differ somewhat.

Now, how could ID possibly become science? Some of you hardliner anti ID's are going to say this is impossible, but I think it might be possible (but will never happen in reality).


I can play Devil’s advocate (pardon the pun) for a moment and paint a realistic scenario where ID would be supported by fact, but it is a bit of sci-fi.

I am of the mind, belief, line of thought that we are not the only intelligent life form in this galaxy, let alone the universe. The more I see of how tenacious and prevalent life is here makes me think it must be more common than generally thought to be before.

With that said, even using the Drake Equation as a given and the optimistic ideal that intelligent life will one day contact/be encountered by us peacefully, it would require verifiable proof that such life actively interfered in the development of life on this planet.

Baring this, let say we travel outwards and discover a planet of an extinct advanced race that contains proof that we were guided as stated by ID.

The religious form of ID and CS can never be supported scientifically since magic and mysticism is involved for either to be true.
Grumpy
To Steveo

I in no way wish to provoke an arguement on how many angels can dance on the fead of a pin, if angels can dance or if the pin exists. But when you state;


QUOTE
In science FACT is a very dangerous word to use. It should be used to describe a consistent result on a repeatable experiment. In other words, the 'facts' would be observations and data. Evolution is not a fact!


I agree that the word FACT has a precise meaning in the sciences, your definition will do nicely. I submit that evolution( which means change) is easily seen in the fossil record. It may be as simple as the moth in England which, prior to the 19th century was an offwhite color (there are preserved specimins in the British Museum) and changed color to a dingy brown by the middle 1800's. This is a FACT, CHANGE occured. If change occured in a species then EVOLUTION of that species has occured. Thus evolution is observed to be a FACT. I then HYPOTHESIZE that the burning of coal darkened the surface of the tree the moth liked to perch upon causing lighter colored moths to be more likely to be eaten than those that were darker. I am able to predict that if less coal is burned or cleaner methods of burning it are found the color will likely lighten. I work hard enough that my H evolves into a THEORY. In the twentieth century less coal is burned and cleaner burning becomes the norm. The moths colors change to a lighter shade. Thus I have made a prediction based on my theory and repeated the experiment.( the first experiment was observed in nature, I have proposed a cause and predicted the outcome of the second experiment, thus evolution can be EXPERIMENTALLY TESTED.) I have not misused the word FACT, in the example above that the moth changed(EVOLVED) is easily seen by simple observation.. So the FACT that EVOLUTION(changes in species) has occured throughout the history of life on Earth is amply supported by the fossil record.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In science FACT is a very dangerous word to use. It should be used to describe a consistent result on a repeatable experiment. In other words, the 'facts' would be observations and data. Evolution is not a fact!


I agree that the word FACT has a precise meaning in the sciences, your definition will do nicely. I submit that evolution( which means change) is easily seen in the fossil record. It may be as simple as the moth in England which, prior to the 19th century was an offwhite color (there are preserved specimins in the British Museum) and changed color to a dingy brown by the middle 1800's. This is a FACT, CHANGE occured. If change occured in a species then EVOLUTION of that species has occured. Thus evolution is observed to be a FACT. I then HYPOTHESIZE that the burning of coal darkened the surface of the tree the moth liked to perch upon causing lighter colored moths to be more likely to be eaten than those that were darker. I am able to predict that if less coal is burned or cleaner methods of burning it are found the color will likely lighten. I work hard enough that my H evolves into a THEORY. In the twentieth century less coal is burned and cleaner burning becomes the norm. The moths colors change to a lighter shade. Thus I have made a prediction based on my theory and repeated the experiment.( the first experiment was observed in nature, I have proposed a cause and predicted the outcome of the second experiment, thus evolution can be EXPERIMENTALLY TESTED.) I have not misused the word FACT, in the example above that the moth changed(EVOLVED) is easily seen by simple observation.. So the FACT that EVOLUTION(changes in species) has occured throughout the history of life on Earth is amply supported by the fossil record.

Except I don't believe that believing in a supernatural being neccessarily constitutes religion.


I would only say that BELIEVING in a SUPERNATURAL CAUSE is not science. Science is about what you can support with the evidence. Science has nothing to say, pro or con, about beliefs or religions, worship as you like. But "I believe..." or "My religion teaches that..." is not acceptable evidence.

Any Questions?

Steveo
Thats fairly clever Grumpy, although thats all it is. I thought we were talking about the broad theory of evolution? If you are going to use the two meanings of evolution interchangably you are not going to get anywhere. If you are going to use the word evolution to simple mean "change in species" then it is a fact. But then you use the word evolution meaning the theory, it is not fact. And you described a very nice example of observing an adaptation of a species. But lets not use one observation to coin something as fact. Science has never allowed the results of one experiment to allow the use of the word fact. Infact, theories that have been verified over and over and over and OVER again are still not called fact. Lets take a look at physics. Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation. Is that fact? No....and this can be a touchy subject, because many people, including physicists are sloppy with this one. The facts that anyone of us can test is that, under standard conditions (sea level, atmospheric pressure, blah blah) is that you can drop something and it will fall towards the earth at approx 9.8m/s^2. Gravity is the theory that describes this phenomena, and has been incredibly accurate and reliable over a few hundred years. It is still not fact. So just because some moths changed and adapted to their environment does not mean evolution is a fact. They changed, great, it supports our theory, but it doesn't prove our theory. Now if we are talking about the facts, lets say "a change over time" or lets rename our theory of evolution so we do not need to have this confusion. This is what happens when there is ambiguity in our definitions.

QUOTE
I would only say that BELIEVING in a SUPERNATURAL CAUSE is not science. Science is about what you can support with the evidence. Science has nothing to say, pro or con, about beliefs or religions, worship as you like. But "I believe..." or "My religion teaches that..." is not acceptable evidence.


I never said believing in the supernatural was science, all I said was that it doesn't have to be religion. Really, if things are practiced properly one could be a scientist, an creationist, and religious all in one, yet have them all separated. For an example of this, consider Einstein, who was definately a scientist, who was a creationist (he believed in a cosmic creator), and also religious (of the Jewish faith). The problem always arises when one tries to mix everything together into one big disgusting soup. When you think about it, every theory of origins (at least that I have heard of) can in some way be interpretted as a creationist theory. If Macroevolution is entirely true (which I do believe it is) then this all fits inside of the big bang theory, which is a cosmic theory of origins, which, as I think was discussed before leaves the door wide open for creationism. Of course this creationist interpretation is of course purely speculation, but it is valid as long as you know that its speculation. I think this is the only time I will ever compliment the catholic church, but when it comes to science they have it right. No problems with the big bang theory, and no problem with evolution, because basically you can interpret it to have all started with god, but you can also interpret it anyway you want, because any interpretation as to what started the big bang can never be proven wrong (at least not with our current knowledge of the theory.)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I would only say that BELIEVING in a SUPERNATURAL CAUSE is not science. Science is about what you can support with the evidence. Science has nothing to say, pro or con, about beliefs or religions, worship as you like. But "I believe..." or "My religion teaches that..." is not acceptable evidence.


I never said believing in the supernatural was science, all I said was that it doesn't have to be religion. Really, if things are practiced properly one could be a scientist, an creationist, and religious all in one, yet have them all separated. For an example of this, consider Einstein, who was definately a scientist, who was a creationist (he believed in a cosmic creator), and also religious (of the Jewish faith). The problem always arises when one tries to mix everything together into one big disgusting soup. When you think about it, every theory of origins (at least that I have heard of) can in some way be interpretted as a creationist theory. If Macroevolution is entirely true (which I do believe it is) then this all fits inside of the big bang theory, which is a cosmic theory of origins, which, as I think was discussed before leaves the door wide open for creationism. Of course this creationist interpretation is of course purely speculation, but it is valid as long as you know that its speculation. I think this is the only time I will ever compliment the catholic church, but when it comes to science they have it right. No problems with the big bang theory, and no problem with evolution, because basically you can interpret it to have all started with god, but you can also interpret it anyway you want, because any interpretation as to what started the big bang can never be proven wrong (at least not with our current knowledge of the theory.)

I in no way wish to provoke an arguement on how many angels can dance on the fead of a pin, if angels can dance or if the pin exists. But when you state;


Thats because there is exactly 20976548975 angels that can dance (they only line dance) on the head of a pin. How can you argue with something that is so obviously fact. LOL
Steveo
Realitycheck, I am not actually worried about that, because I take these examples for what they are, exactly as you said, speeding up the selection process, but I can also see where this is ammunition for the evolutionary theory hater who will claim these are not credible examples of evolution. And then I can see where from these claims he might cry that there has been a loss of academic integrity. But you see, this is science's strength. It is willing to put forward its evidence, even if it will be attacked by someone. And this is where ID and creationsim has yet to do any of this. I have yet to see any actual evidence of creationism. All I have seens is crying foul on evolutionary evidence, and claims that there are tons of evidence for creationism.
Grumpy
Steveo

It is no trick to use precise language. The progression from FACT to HYPOTHESIS to THEORY which includes TESTING, FALSIFICATION, PEER REVIEW efc. is extremely important. In my example I showed:

The FACT that evolution had occured in the moth. This was self evident, needed no explanation to be understood and was unquestionable. These kinds of FACTS occur throughout the history of life on Earth, that evolution has ocurred is a FACT!!! The THEORIES, developed from HYPOTHESES, which explain the mechanisms and causes of the FACTS are always subject to change(testing, peer review, yada yada) To a layman a theory means you are not sure of the facts, the proponents of the CS BS are always saying "It's only a theory" because they know this and use it to insinuate that their "theory" is as good as evolution. Every time we are less than precise in our language we hand them a weapon which they will use!!!
gadfly
Intelligent Algorithm?!?

‘Breaking News’ PhysOrg ‘New algorithm found for learning language‘ briefly discusses an unsupervised computer program able to understand languages that someday may be of use in bioinformatics. This may have more in common with 2002 Stephen Wolfram: ‘A New Kind of Science’ than with intelligent design. Wolfram advocates cellular automata, which are type of cooperative game in mathematics.

In 1995 ’Vital Dust” by Christian de Duve, Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1974, has a brief discussion of cellular automata as artificial life [p 121].

Also de Duve discussed [p 10] ‘design’ which he relates to finalism and vitalism which he thought were discarded concepts replaced by physics and chemistry. In the preface [p xiv] he discussed exclusion of ‘three isms’ since he wanted to describe the evolution of life ‘in terms of antecedent and immediate physical-chemical causes‘.

1 - vitalism - some vital spirit animating matter constituting life
2 - finalism - assumption of biology with goal-oriented basis
3 - creationism - literal acceptance of bible

Alas ten years later ID / CS has resurfaced.

Clearly ID / CS is not a physical science [branch of science including chemistry and physics, usually contrasted with the social sciences and sometimes including and sometimes contrasted with natural or biological science].

Since physics, by trying to unify quantum mechanics with general relativity, leads the way in attempting to explain the evolution of existence, ID / CS may one day decide that this is more threatening to their beliefs than biological evolution.

ID / CS is trying to be a biological science [branch of science concerned with: 1) the characteristics and behaviors of organisms, 2) how species and individuals come into existence, and 3) the interactions they have with each other and with their environment].

ID / CS may eventually become a social science [application of scientific methods to the study of human social behavior; including economics, political science, anthropology, sociology, and psychology, also known as social studies and (pejoratively) as the soft sciences] if scientific methods are employed.
Grumpy
PS

Yes I am as guilty as anyone, I just used evolution to mean the fact and the theory. I will try in the future to be more precise.
ApeMan
Grumpy et al,

I have to agree with SteveO on his points about the difference between facts and theory, and disagree with the interpretation you seem to have.

You said...
QUOTE
The FACT that evolution had occured in the moth. This was self evident, needed no explanation to be understood and was unquestionable. These kinds of FACTS occur throughout the history of life on Earth, that evolution has ocurred is a FACT!!!


Every time the term "self-evident" is used, I cringe (especially since it is usually used by "my" side - the proponents of CS BS as you so eloquently put it). When this term is used, it usually means that observations have been observed through a filter of assumptions, which permit only a single conclusion. The very reason why I agree with all the evolutionists on thsi board that ID should NOT be taught in science class is that it relies far too heavily on the "self-evident" argument. "Just look at the eye-ball, it is far too complex to have evolved through random chance, therefore it is self-evident that a designer must have been involved". That type of statement has rightly been slammed as sloppy thinking by many on this board and others.

You have also said...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The FACT that evolution had occured in the moth. This was self evident, needed no explanation to be understood and was unquestionable. These kinds of FACTS occur throughout the history of life on Earth, that evolution has ocurred is a FACT!!!


Every time the term "self-evident" is used, I cringe (especially since it is usually used by "my" side - the proponents of CS BS as you so eloquently put it). When this term is used, it usually means that observations have been observed through a filter of assumptions, which permit only a single conclusion. The very reason why I agree with all the evolutionists on thsi board that ID should NOT be taught in science class is that it relies far too heavily on the "self-evident" argument. "Just look at the eye-ball, it is far too complex to have evolved through random chance, therefore it is self-evident that a designer must have been involved". That type of statement has rightly been slammed as sloppy thinking by many on this board and others.

You have also said...
To a layman a theory means you are not sure of the facts, the proponents of the CS BS are always saying "It's only a theory" because they know this and use it to insinuate that their "theory" is as good as evolution. Every time we are less than precise in our language we hand them a weapon which they will use!!!


I agree that a "layman" may misuse the term theory, but that is no reason for us (those actually trained in, and faithful to, the scientific method) to do the same thing. Physicists (like me) refer to Quantum Theory, the Theory of Relativity, etc. Even if some people think that means we are hesitent about the knowledge and techniques derived from these theories, that is their mistake, not ours. Quantum Mechanics is a theory at least as diverse and impactful as evolutionary theory, yet a theoryis all it is. However, Josephson Junctions work, so the theory (which predicted the would) is strongly supported. However, a conflicting theiry (semi-classical mechanics) also exists, which attempts to explain many of the same phenomena without resorting to quanta or probability as does quantum mechanics. And teh stouches between the adherents of the two can be just as nasty as that between evolutionists and creationists (if without the unecessary religious overtones).

I do not believe that SteveO feels that evolution is any less true than do you. Yet he terms it a theory.

Remember that many previously so-called "self-evident" facts have turned out to be incorrect; flat earth, spontaneous generation, irreducibility of the atom, superiority of the arryan race, Clinton's impeachment <grin>. Case in point is one of my favourites - Copernicus. He rejected the self-evident claims of his day that the Earth was the center of the universe (a line strongly enforced <hello Torqemada> by the Church of the day>, and applied the scientific method to the observations of his day, found a few issues with them, developed better observations and analyses,and presented a new theory (in it's day) of the nature of the solar system. This is one theory that has become a fact.

IF evolution is true (and I allow the possibility), then the probable accumulation of evidence will continue to support it, and perhaps one day the weight of proven, repeatable, verifiable evidence will result in evolution being properly termed a fact. That day, alas, has not yet come.

On another point made...
QUOTE
It may be as simple as the moth in England which, prior to the 19th century was an offwhite color (there are preserved specimins in the British Museum) and changed color to a dingy brown by the middle 1800's.


I don't feel that your treatment of this issue has actually proven anything beyond a population variation (which could possibly have led to speciation). The two variations of moth are genetically the same species. Yes a change occurred (FACT agreed), but terming that evolution is a misuse if the term (or it makes the term too broad). If evolution simply means change (as it is used in many areas) then yes, evolution occurred. However, that does not "prove" that the moth was once an amoeba (or whatever). Taking a small sample size makes predictions about the total population chancy, and that is what I think happens in this specific case.

I would like to repeat that I do NOT think CS is a theory. It is a religious position, NOT a scientific theory.
Grumpy
To Ape Man

In the case of the moth I purposely chose a simple example to illustrate a principle,as I stated in my post(it could be as simple as...). In using the term"self-evident" I was stressing that the change in the species required no "filter" to be obvious. When you pull out drawer after drawer of preserved specimens the color change requires no intellegence or point of view to see that change occured. Thus this example and "self-evident design of the eye" which requires an "informed" opinion of what could or could not occur in nature, are not equivalent. And any change in a species which affects the survival chances of individuals within that species(better camoflage) is definately evolutionary. Thus my contention that evolution has occured, that the change in the species can be seen by all(better than self-evident?) and that the change is undeniable. Therefore

That evolutionary changes have occured(the species has evolved) is a fact.

My explanation of the cause of that change(the theory of evolution) though based on the fact, is subject to change given new facts or better theory.

This is just one of the evolutioary changes observed in the fossil record throughout the history of life on our planet. And small changes accumulating into larger changes is also observed. The fact that evolution has occurred cannot be denied by anyone who has actually studied that record. It requires no "filter" and is as obvious as the color change in the moth.

Theories are subject to change at any time(the scientific method).
Steveo
I have to agree with Apeman, that the changes in the moth are not evolutionary. You even said that if there was les polution and the colour of the trees became lighter again after a generation then the moths would be back to their light colour. There has been no change in the DNA structure. So, lets say that for some environmental factor on earth within 1 generation all of the blonde people died off. Is that evolution? Not even close, it is blonde people dying off. If over many generations all hair colours slowly shifted and everyone had brown hair, that could be evolution (although I can't fathom what might make this happen).

I won't deny that the fossil record is pretty convincing evidence for evolution, but you have to remember the difference between evidence and hypothesis. I will state again what exactly the fossil record tells us. It tells us that as time varies (increases) there is some measureable change in the fossils of what appear to be the 'same' species. Although, with only this evidence, and no other evidence at all, it would be just as safe to assume that at one time there was a certain species, and they all died, and then later a similar species migrated to that habitat, then all died. Now I know there are tons of other questions with that explanation, and I am not claiming that it is correct (as I have stated, and Apeman defended, I am a supporter of Evolution, but more than that, I like to make sure the scientific method is followed properly because all to often, in all sciences it is not followed properly), but from ONLY the fossil record, this is a semi resonable conclusion. The fossil record is a fact, the conclusions and interpretations we get from it are far from fact. You need to know the difference because to someone who knows what they are talking about you will not be taken seriously. The use of language here is very subtle, but very important!

And I agree with Apeman that the word theory has a poor pop culture meaning that takes away from its actually power. It doesn't matter if something is coin a 'theory'. If it has predictive power, in an academic circle it will be given the respect it deserves. Calling something a theory rather than fact is not an insult, just being true to the spirit of science. As a scientist I really want to avoid being as closed minded as the CS and ID fanatics. I just have a hard time understanding how they can not have any grasp of the scientific method.
Grumpy
To Steveo and Ape Man

If you both agree that a change in a species(no matter how small, short lived or reverseable), especially if such change affects the survivability and reprodustive viability of a member of that species is not evolutionary in nature you both have a basic misunderstanding of what evolution is. In this extremely simple example(on purpose, for unambiguity) a change occured. By definition a change in a species is evolution of that species, even if it is infinitesimal. Of the thousands of small changes, large differences grow, just as a drip of water over time will erode a stone. Evolution is slow( usually, Punctuated Equalibrium) and small changes accumulating over long periods of time leads to large differences from the original organism. The easily seen evidence of this is what allows scientists to say that the occurance of evolution is a fact. I can explain it no better, if you dont accept it,oh well. But it is true, nonetheless.
Steveo
Ok Grumpy, I did a little bit of research (a really little bit, because the answer I was looking for appeared in the first paragraph I read). The situation you described is known as natural selection, which is definately connected to evolution, but not itself evolution. Evolution, as defined by the pbs website is changes over time of a species that occur at the genetic level. The situation you described with the moths was much to fast to change the genetics, and like you said, one generation later, if the polution would clean up and the trees would turn light that year all of the surviving moths would be light in colour. I won't argue that if these trees stayed dark in colour for hundreds of generations that there might be some genetic change, but as quickly as you said it happened is not evolution. Thats the problem with using simplifed examples like that. Sometimes they aren't even an example of what you are using them to argue about.

And like my displeasure of the word fact, I have just as much of a displeasure with the use of the word 'true' in science. It may still have its place, if used very carefully. I will give you an example of the difference. "It is true that humans and apes have a common ancestor" is bad, but saying something like "Humans and apes have a common ancestor is true, according to the theory of evolution". But then whats the point of that second sentence when you could just say "according to evolution apes and humans have a common ancestor." There really isn't need for the word true at all, so please don't use it in a scientific context.

You might notice I am very picky, but if people are sloppy with language the meaning of a person's arguement will be totally lost on someone else. So we need to be very consistent with our language.
Grumpy
To Steveo

There you go again. The time period in question, called the Industrial revolution Stretched from around 1820(when coal began to be used for heat in a big way because of mining technology) to the 1940's(when,after WW2, laws limiting coal burning began) so about 120 years. The laws probably took some time to affect a change of environment and the moth probably took several generations to react to the change. That is certainly more than one generation for the Peppered Moth.
I believe my example stands as I expressed it.

I was saying that my statement(that scientists can...) was true whether you accept it or not.

Natural Selection is an EXPLANATION(Theory or Hypothesis) of the Facts we observe. Really, You should have understood that. And evolution works on the level of physical changes(color, size, wrong number and shape of horns) which seperate varieties of the same animal and allow changes in DNA to occur that will not happen if they continue to share the same gene pool. The wolf considers the chihuahua a snack, not a potential mate.(not a pretty picture).

"Every journey begins with a single step"
adoucette
This "moth" discussion is getting a little tiresome.

First of all, the whole moth thing was faked (over zealous proponents of evolution are as equally capable of mucking with the truth as other zealots)

Second of all, we tend to be anthrocentric.

Our eyes see in the visible light spectrum, moths on the otherhand are dormant during the day and are active at night.

Many moth predators don't rely on the visible spectrum at all.

Their main predators are bats and spiders, not so much birds.

Neither bats or spiders give a damn what color the moths are, they don't find them by sight.

Moths HAVE evolved to have a powdery coating on their wings that makes their flight quieter but bats of course have echo location, so they are only partially dependent on the sound made by the moths.

Arthur
Grumpy
To Steveo and Ape Man

We seem to have been argueing past each other. My understanding of the facts of evolution is that any change in an organism can turn out to be signifigent. Yours is that only signifigent change is evolution.

I have expressed my view as clearly as I know how. I could cite example after example but if you dont see the distinction in the simple example, would it be likely for you to see it in the complex. A plumage change among otherwise simular birds. A beak adaptation which allows one bird to eat seeds others cannot(as on Galapogos. they are all still finches, the bill shapes can change back and forth as food sources change).

And small changes lead to different species coming from common ancesters. The horse and the donkey are very simular animals but are in the process of diverging, they can interbreed but the offspring, the mule, is sterile.

Anyway, I feel I have made my case, If you do not then we will just have to agree to disagree.
david barclay
Alright, here's a question.

What sustains and perpetuates physical matter?

Perhaps this should be a new topic, but it relates to the big discussion on evolution and creation.

I'm interested to hear how many people think that the Universe exists as a continuance of field, in respect to both past and future existing simultaneously, as opposed to those who think it all exists in the present moment and that's all there is?

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