Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Zapper+Oct 22 2005, 02:36 AM)
... How's it going with that preaching? ...
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (I Corinthians 1:18-21)
How to be Saved
.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (I Corinthians 1:18-21)
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Oct 22 2005, 05:13 AM)
Afternoon folks,
Just a little side-track - I've heard the term 'liberal' used as a perjorative in several places, and never quite got what's so bad about them (if anything). Could someone explain it to me?
Cheers
Kaeroll
Well....since you ask.....
Liberals vs Conservatives:
Note: There are always exceptions - but this is the general rule. There are varying degrees of liberals and conservatives - hence the terms left wing nuts and right wing extremists.
In the olden days .
Liberals and Conservatives, outside of minor fiscal and political differences, used to be very similar.
There used to be good, moral, spiritual people on both sides of the aisle.
They used to disagree on domestic issues, but usually stood together on foreign issues.
They used to disagree on how many tax dollars to collect and how to spend those dollars,
but usually agreed on issues of moral consequence to the nation.
It was not unusual for a fiscal 'liberal' to be spiritually and morally conservative.
This has all changed.
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
United Nations vs ....United States
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Here's how one Old Hippy (a Liberal) puts it: (note: the (*) points are my comments)
The current definition of liberal is someone who advocates economic equality (* communism) and personal freedom (*do whatever feels good) . In other words, liberals are the antithesis of conservatives (in theory anyway) (* you got that right). Conservatives advocate submission to their concept of conformity (*they value order) - usually based on religious convictions. They want everyone to toe their line (*more like keep it between the lines). Conservatives also oppose sharing the wealth. They feel they've "earned it" and expect everyone to do likewise (*yup), thus they oppose welfare and most democratic institutions that seek to help those economically disadvantaged. (*wrong)
If you are very vocal, if you defend those who others attack, if you treat people equally, if you are concerned about the rights of other people as well as animals (*above and beyond respect for humans, it seems), if you respect the environment, if you're a vegetarian (*huh?), if you advocate the use of marijuana or other mind expanding drugs (*do whatever feels good), if you entertain visions of a better world where peace, love, respect and tolerance (*read: anti-God) are not just empty words, then my friend, you are one of us, regardless of how you look!
Source: http://www.hippy.com/php/article-29.html
But, just like you can tease a dog only so much before it bites you - Conservatives have had enough and they're not going to take it anymore. Liberals have crossed the line. Religion and morality are back (never left - but now they're more vocal - liberal trick?). This new return of religion and morality can be called the period of 'post-secularism'. Misewell embrace it. You stand to gain more freedom and respect if you do. Liberalism suppresses freedom because it treats various groups differently. Freedom does not mean everybody gets to do whatever the heck they feel like whenever the heck they feel like it.
But it doesn't matter what I or anyone else says - you can do whatever you want. That's what makes you a liberal.
SoLoved
Just a little side-track - I've heard the term 'liberal' used as a perjorative in several places, and never quite got what's so bad about them (if anything). Could someone explain it to me?
Cheers
Kaeroll
Well....since you ask.....Liberals vs Conservatives:
Note: There are always exceptions - but this is the general rule. There are varying degrees of liberals and conservatives - hence the terms left wing nuts and right wing extremists.
In the olden days .
Liberals and Conservatives, outside of minor fiscal and political differences, used to be very similar.
There used to be good, moral, spiritual people on both sides of the aisle.
They used to disagree on domestic issues, but usually stood together on foreign issues.
They used to disagree on how many tax dollars to collect and how to spend those dollars,
but usually agreed on issues of moral consequence to the nation.
It was not unusual for a fiscal 'liberal' to be spiritually and morally conservative.
This has all changed.
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
United Nations vs ....United States
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Here's how one Old Hippy (a Liberal) puts it: (note: the (*) points are my comments)
The current definition of liberal is someone who advocates economic equality (* communism) and personal freedom (*do whatever feels good) . In other words, liberals are the antithesis of conservatives (in theory anyway) (* you got that right). Conservatives advocate submission to their concept of conformity (*they value order) - usually based on religious convictions. They want everyone to toe their line (*more like keep it between the lines). Conservatives also oppose sharing the wealth. They feel they've "earned it" and expect everyone to do likewise (*yup), thus they oppose welfare and most democratic institutions that seek to help those economically disadvantaged. (*wrong)
If you are very vocal, if you defend those who others attack, if you treat people equally, if you are concerned about the rights of other people as well as animals (*above and beyond respect for humans, it seems), if you respect the environment, if you're a vegetarian (*huh?), if you advocate the use of marijuana or other mind expanding drugs (*do whatever feels good), if you entertain visions of a better world where peace, love, respect and tolerance (*read: anti-God) are not just empty words, then my friend, you are one of us, regardless of how you look!
Source: http://www.hippy.com/php/article-29.html
But, just like you can tease a dog only so much before it bites you - Conservatives have had enough and they're not going to take it anymore. Liberals have crossed the line. Religion and morality are back (never left - but now they're more vocal - liberal trick?). This new return of religion and morality can be called the period of 'post-secularism'. Misewell embrace it. You stand to gain more freedom and respect if you do. Liberalism suppresses freedom because it treats various groups differently. Freedom does not mean everybody gets to do whatever the heck they feel like whenever the heck they feel like it.
But it doesn't matter what I or anyone else says - you can do whatever you want. That's what makes you a liberal.
SoLoved
Count me as Liberalish, then.
I prefer the term 'tolerant'.
Kaeroll
I prefer the term 'tolerant'.
Kaeroll
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Oct 22 2005, 01:27 PM)
Count me as Liberalish, then.
I prefer the term 'tolerant'.
Kaeroll
Kaeroll,
Tolerant of people who believe in these things for example?
And if so, how does this manifest itself in your life?
And if not, what is your definition of tolerance?
Morality
Pro-life
Man/Woman marriage
God given rights
Free speech
Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the People decide
United States
Individual/Collective control
Peacemaker
All are created equal
US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
SoLoved
I prefer the term 'tolerant'.
Kaeroll
Kaeroll,
Tolerant of people who believe in these things for example?
And if so, how does this manifest itself in your life?
And if not, what is your definition of tolerance?
Morality
Pro-life
Man/Woman marriage
God given rights
Free speech
Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the People decide
United States
Individual/Collective control
Peacemaker
All are created equal
US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
SoLoved
sostupid
Morality Yes
Pro-life Pro Choice
Man/Woman marriage Marriage between two people
God given rights Rights in the Constitution
Free speech Yes
Law was founded on Ten Commandments You have to be joking
Let the People decide And protect minority rights
United States of America
Individual/Collective control Make up your mind, I prefer freedom
Peacemaker 45 Auto
All are created equal of course
US founded on Godly beliefs US founded on freedom
Teach evolution and Intelligent Design Teach the science
Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth If you want to, I don't
Being tolerant means you have a right to be wrong if you want to and i'll put up with that.
It's your slander and lies we won't tolerate, you scumball. Take your libel elsewhere, your done here,sostupid.
Grumpy
Morality Yes
Pro-life Pro Choice
Man/Woman marriage Marriage between two people
God given rights Rights in the Constitution
Free speech Yes
Law was founded on Ten Commandments You have to be joking
Let the People decide And protect minority rights
United States of America
Individual/Collective control Make up your mind, I prefer freedom
Peacemaker 45 Auto
All are created equal of course
US founded on Godly beliefs US founded on freedom
Teach evolution and Intelligent Design Teach the science
Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth If you want to, I don't
Being tolerant means you have a right to be wrong if you want to and i'll put up with that.
It's your slander and lies we won't tolerate, you scumball. Take your libel elsewhere, your done here,sostupid.
Grumpy
OK, anyone who's read many of my posts probably knows I'm somewhat conservative.
But then I make my decisions based on issues, not any "party line", so:
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
I don't think the govt has any say in what you do unless it infringes on the rights of others. For instance I don't agree with the "click it or ticket laws", while I am for decriminalization of the use of "illegal" drugs. I don't believe in the death penalty.
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
I am "against" abortion as a means of contraception, but acknowledge that it is the woman's right, to a point. I would not allow 3rd trimester abortions EXCEPT to save the mother's life.
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Marriage is a Legal contract, and so should be available to any two people with all the legal responsibilities that entails.
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
I don't believe the GOVT should lead any prayers, but that is quite different than calling for Banning Prayer.
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
I don't believe discussion of any subject should be suppressed unless its purpose is to incite violence. While I have no problem with discussing ID in school, that is not the same as saying it should be part of the curriculum. However, I do believe that each State should determine the curriculum that is taught.
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
I don't think the Commandments should be banned, but they should not be displayed as if they are "approved" by the government either.
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
Gosh, I thought the people decided guilt and the judge imposed the sentence?
I don't agree with judges making "law" however, so I do support SCJ who don't broadly interpret the Constitution. In most cases I think extensions of the control of "interstate trade" have gone WAY to far into States rights.
United Nations vs ....United States
the UN basically sucks as it is currently structured. The Veto power of the Security council essentially makes it useless as far as having any real authority. Currently the best it can do is STOMP on little guys who get out of line. Big deal. Power grabs like the IPCC are despicable.
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
I guess it depends on what is being controlled?
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Somewhere in between these two, depending on the situation.
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
All are created equal, though I don't see this as the opposite of Anti-religion or God.
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
US founded on belief of a Divine Creator. BUT, the founders also were clear that that was NOT the same as the Govt supporting ANY ONE religion.
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Teach only accepted scientific theories. In the appropriate classes teach the controversy and why ID is a belief, not a science.
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Neither
Arthur
But then I make my decisions based on issues, not any "party line", so:
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
I don't think the govt has any say in what you do unless it infringes on the rights of others. For instance I don't agree with the "click it or ticket laws", while I am for decriminalization of the use of "illegal" drugs. I don't believe in the death penalty.
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
I am "against" abortion as a means of contraception, but acknowledge that it is the woman's right, to a point. I would not allow 3rd trimester abortions EXCEPT to save the mother's life.
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Marriage is a Legal contract, and so should be available to any two people with all the legal responsibilities that entails.
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
I don't believe the GOVT should lead any prayers, but that is quite different than calling for Banning Prayer.
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
I don't believe discussion of any subject should be suppressed unless its purpose is to incite violence. While I have no problem with discussing ID in school, that is not the same as saying it should be part of the curriculum. However, I do believe that each State should determine the curriculum that is taught.
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
I don't think the Commandments should be banned, but they should not be displayed as if they are "approved" by the government either.
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
Gosh, I thought the people decided guilt and the judge imposed the sentence?
I don't agree with judges making "law" however, so I do support SCJ who don't broadly interpret the Constitution. In most cases I think extensions of the control of "interstate trade" have gone WAY to far into States rights.
United Nations vs ....United States
the UN basically sucks as it is currently structured. The Veto power of the Security council essentially makes it useless as far as having any real authority. Currently the best it can do is STOMP on little guys who get out of line. Big deal. Power grabs like the IPCC are despicable.
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
I guess it depends on what is being controlled?
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Somewhere in between these two, depending on the situation.
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
All are created equal, though I don't see this as the opposite of Anti-religion or God.
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
US founded on belief of a Divine Creator. BUT, the founders also were clear that that was NOT the same as the Govt supporting ANY ONE religion.
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Teach only accepted scientific theories. In the appropriate classes teach the controversy and why ID is a belief, not a science.
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Neither
Arthur
sosostu...soloved
The current definition of liberal is someone who advocates economic equality and personal freedom. In other words, liberals are the antithesis of conservatives (in theory anyway). Conservatives advocate submission to their concept of conformity - usually based on religious convictions. They want everyone to toe their line. Conservatives also oppose sharing the wealth(or paying their fair share of taxes). They feel they've "earned it" and expect everyone to do likewise, thus they oppose welfare and most democratic institutions that seek to help those economically disadvantaged.
If you are very vocal, if you defend those who others attack, if you treat people equally, if you are concerned about the rights of other people as well as animals, if you respect the environment, if you're a vegetarian, if you advocate the use of marijuana or other mind expanding drugs, if you entertain visions of a better world where peace, love, respect and tolerance are not just empty words, then my friend, you are one of us, regardless of how you look!
Doesn't it make much more sense after you've removed sosostu...soloved's inanities???
Grumpy
The current definition of liberal is someone who advocates economic equality and personal freedom. In other words, liberals are the antithesis of conservatives (in theory anyway). Conservatives advocate submission to their concept of conformity - usually based on religious convictions. They want everyone to toe their line. Conservatives also oppose sharing the wealth(or paying their fair share of taxes). They feel they've "earned it" and expect everyone to do likewise, thus they oppose welfare and most democratic institutions that seek to help those economically disadvantaged.
If you are very vocal, if you defend those who others attack, if you treat people equally, if you are concerned about the rights of other people as well as animals, if you respect the environment, if you're a vegetarian, if you advocate the use of marijuana or other mind expanding drugs, if you entertain visions of a better world where peace, love, respect and tolerance are not just empty words, then my friend, you are one of us, regardless of how you look!
Doesn't it make much more sense after you've removed sosostu...soloved's inanities???
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Oct 19 2005, 11:52 PM)
new guy
As I have said before, I will not try to change your belief in the Bible, that is your right. Though I do not equate other books to scripture, Iread a book years ago called "Everything I Need To Know, I Learned In Kindergarten". The message in this book is profound, the gist being that humans learn their morals by the time they are 5 years old. This consists mostly of the Golden Rule(Do unto others...) learned through interactions with other children and adults. Before this age children do not understand the Bible or other sources of morality, yet they have a basic sense of morality by the fifth year. I believe the premise expounded by this book, but my belief would not meet the standard of scientific evidence. To meet that standard I would have to do years of study and observation of children, including repeatable experimentation(tasks, games, surveys), collate the data, submit it to peer review. If the only evidence I had was a copy of the book and my belief then, no matter how true I believed the book to be, I would never be able to meet the standard of scientific evidence, no matter how many people I persuaded that the book was true. Would that affect my belief in the book? No, I believe it because of my experiences which convince me it is true. Would that mean the book is not true? No,but I could not provide scientifically convincing evidence of that. Would that mean that book was of no value? No,it's insite is very valuable to me.
I know the above example is not in the same league as the Bible, but the principle is the same. The Bible has to be accepted on faith,because it answers the inner questions science cannot touch. Science must subject all evidence to the scientific method, faith is not sufficient for valid evidence. It can answer questions about the physical world but cannot say anything about the spiritual realm. When religion and science stay within their boundaries there is no conflict between them. They,together, give a fuller answer to the questions of life than either alone can. But science cannot answer spiritual questions, nor can religion answer scientific questions.
Those are my thoughts on the subject(without reference to any other source). I would be interested in yours.
Grumpy
Grumpy: Sorry it took me so long to answer your post...my schedule has been extremely hectic of late. As usual, I understood your response to my question, but I'm not sure that you necessarily got the point that I was hinting at(maybe you did). I can certainly understand what you mean when you speak of something "not meeting the standard of scientific evidence"(after all, that point has certainly been hammered home by you and others repeatedly), but is that the only "standard" that there is? That really is my question. Were my posts merely "scientific" in nature, and I'll be the first to admit that they're not, then I could certainly understand the "standard" that I would need to meet. However, my posts, which shouldn't surprise anyone who has read them, are a lot more "spiritual" in nature, and therefore, other "standards" of evidence should apply. By this I mean that I am not really interested(I am to some degree) to argue "science"...I am much more interested in the souls of the "scientists", regardless of which side of this debate/argument they are on. When it comes to the area of Biblical "salvation", there simply has to be an accepted "spiritual standard" as "salvation" is a work of the spirit(Spirit). Again, I am not here to even debate "spiritual standards", per se, I am interested in the souls of men and men can only genuinely know of God's existence by knowing God Himself. This is, as I've previously stated, a work of the "spirit" which naturally(really supernaturally) requires a "spiritual standard". That is the point I was hoping to relate...I'm not sure if you understood that or not. As I said, I did understand your response and I thank you for it. Hopefully, understanding my true motives, which I trust at least you do(I can't say the same for many others on this forum), you can then also understand my constant stressing of "spiritual evidence", the greatest of which would be personally knowing God Himself through the "new spiritual birth". I'll leave it at that, for now. If we can at least understand where each other is coming from(and I think we do), then hopefully we can engage in a civil debate. As I said in a recent post, I harbor no personal malice towards you(or anyone else in this forum, for that matter). At the same time, there are several people on this forum that I will no longer engage in any sort of dialogue with for a number of reasons. As far as you are concerned, although I obviously disagree with you on a whole host of topics, I can personally maintain a level of respect for you because I trust that you are at least sincere in your beliefs, you haven't just "jumped on the bandwagon", so to speak. Others...well, I really couldn't tell you what I think of them without using such words as "idiot"...a term that I try to avoid, although it is a valid term with valid meanings in both our language and culture. Having said all this, there is something about you that sort of confuses me and I'm hoping you can help clear things up for me. Having read a large number of your posts on different threads, I have seen where you've said such things as "Life's a bitch and then you die" and have personally come to the conclusion that you apparently(correct me if I'm wrong) don't believe in any sort of an afterlife. If this is the case, then that would leave me to conclude that your zeal for your position pertains only to this life, whereas mine naturally(or supernaturally) wouldn't. If you believe that we're all going to just die, then why spend so much of your time here on earth fighting to defend evolution? If this is all there is, what would it really matter to you what other people believed or taught? I would personally have to think that there is more to it than just "scientific truth" versus "scientific error"...of course, that's just my opinion. Why the big fuss over ID being taught in schools or not(as I've said, I homeschool, so this really isn't my fight) if this is all there is? Is it the fear(I trust you understand how I'm using this word...I'm sure others deliberately won't) of living in a "theocracry" where "religious abuses" might take place(I'll be the first to admit that this has happened a multitude of times in history)? In essence, what I'm asking is "What makes you tick?" or "What ticks you off?" I have some somewhat educated guesses as to the answer to this question, but I'd like to get it "from the horse's mouth", so to speak. Please answer this for me, if you will. Thanks.
As I have said before, I will not try to change your belief in the Bible, that is your right. Though I do not equate other books to scripture, Iread a book years ago called "Everything I Need To Know, I Learned In Kindergarten". The message in this book is profound, the gist being that humans learn their morals by the time they are 5 years old. This consists mostly of the Golden Rule(Do unto others...) learned through interactions with other children and adults. Before this age children do not understand the Bible or other sources of morality, yet they have a basic sense of morality by the fifth year. I believe the premise expounded by this book, but my belief would not meet the standard of scientific evidence. To meet that standard I would have to do years of study and observation of children, including repeatable experimentation(tasks, games, surveys), collate the data, submit it to peer review. If the only evidence I had was a copy of the book and my belief then, no matter how true I believed the book to be, I would never be able to meet the standard of scientific evidence, no matter how many people I persuaded that the book was true. Would that affect my belief in the book? No, I believe it because of my experiences which convince me it is true. Would that mean the book is not true? No,but I could not provide scientifically convincing evidence of that. Would that mean that book was of no value? No,it's insite is very valuable to me.
I know the above example is not in the same league as the Bible, but the principle is the same. The Bible has to be accepted on faith,because it answers the inner questions science cannot touch. Science must subject all evidence to the scientific method, faith is not sufficient for valid evidence. It can answer questions about the physical world but cannot say anything about the spiritual realm. When religion and science stay within their boundaries there is no conflict between them. They,together, give a fuller answer to the questions of life than either alone can. But science cannot answer spiritual questions, nor can religion answer scientific questions.
Those are my thoughts on the subject(without reference to any other source). I would be interested in yours.
Grumpy
Grumpy: Sorry it took me so long to answer your post...my schedule has been extremely hectic of late. As usual, I understood your response to my question, but I'm not sure that you necessarily got the point that I was hinting at(maybe you did). I can certainly understand what you mean when you speak of something "not meeting the standard of scientific evidence"(after all, that point has certainly been hammered home by you and others repeatedly), but is that the only "standard" that there is? That really is my question. Were my posts merely "scientific" in nature, and I'll be the first to admit that they're not, then I could certainly understand the "standard" that I would need to meet. However, my posts, which shouldn't surprise anyone who has read them, are a lot more "spiritual" in nature, and therefore, other "standards" of evidence should apply. By this I mean that I am not really interested(I am to some degree) to argue "science"...I am much more interested in the souls of the "scientists", regardless of which side of this debate/argument they are on. When it comes to the area of Biblical "salvation", there simply has to be an accepted "spiritual standard" as "salvation" is a work of the spirit(Spirit). Again, I am not here to even debate "spiritual standards", per se, I am interested in the souls of men and men can only genuinely know of God's existence by knowing God Himself. This is, as I've previously stated, a work of the "spirit" which naturally(really supernaturally) requires a "spiritual standard". That is the point I was hoping to relate...I'm not sure if you understood that or not. As I said, I did understand your response and I thank you for it. Hopefully, understanding my true motives, which I trust at least you do(I can't say the same for many others on this forum), you can then also understand my constant stressing of "spiritual evidence", the greatest of which would be personally knowing God Himself through the "new spiritual birth". I'll leave it at that, for now. If we can at least understand where each other is coming from(and I think we do), then hopefully we can engage in a civil debate. As I said in a recent post, I harbor no personal malice towards you(or anyone else in this forum, for that matter). At the same time, there are several people on this forum that I will no longer engage in any sort of dialogue with for a number of reasons. As far as you are concerned, although I obviously disagree with you on a whole host of topics, I can personally maintain a level of respect for you because I trust that you are at least sincere in your beliefs, you haven't just "jumped on the bandwagon", so to speak. Others...well, I really couldn't tell you what I think of them without using such words as "idiot"...a term that I try to avoid, although it is a valid term with valid meanings in both our language and culture. Having said all this, there is something about you that sort of confuses me and I'm hoping you can help clear things up for me. Having read a large number of your posts on different threads, I have seen where you've said such things as "Life's a bitch and then you die" and have personally come to the conclusion that you apparently(correct me if I'm wrong) don't believe in any sort of an afterlife. If this is the case, then that would leave me to conclude that your zeal for your position pertains only to this life, whereas mine naturally(or supernaturally) wouldn't. If you believe that we're all going to just die, then why spend so much of your time here on earth fighting to defend evolution? If this is all there is, what would it really matter to you what other people believed or taught? I would personally have to think that there is more to it than just "scientific truth" versus "scientific error"...of course, that's just my opinion. Why the big fuss over ID being taught in schools or not(as I've said, I homeschool, so this really isn't my fight) if this is all there is? Is it the fear(I trust you understand how I'm using this word...I'm sure others deliberately won't) of living in a "theocracry" where "religious abuses" might take place(I'll be the first to admit that this has happened a multitude of times in history)? In essence, what I'm asking is "What makes you tick?" or "What ticks you off?" I have some somewhat educated guesses as to the answer to this question, but I'd like to get it "from the horse's mouth", so to speak. Please answer this for me, if you will. Thanks.
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 22 2005, 11:49 PM)
I can certainly understand what you mean when you speak of something "not meeting the standard of scientific evidence"(after all, that point has certainly been hammered home by you and others repeatedly), but is that the only "standard" that there is?
Uh.. excuse me, this is a science forum.
Uh.. excuse me, this is a science forum.
new guy
You would be correct in thinking I do not believe in an afterlife, but that makes it even more important to make this life as good and productive as possible. No that does not mean anything goes, I also believe that to treat your fellow man in the same manner you would wish to be treated makes life more worthwhile. The other main enjoyment, intellectually, is to learn as much about the wonders of the universe as possible(I read Physics books for entertainment). Without promise of reward when we die, it is also very important that our lives be governed by reality and not limited by superstition(of any kind). I want kids to be taught science which can be supported by the evidence, if their parents wish to add religious teachings to this, that is their right but it should not be taught in the schools.
Religion cannot answer scientific questions nor can science answer religious questions.
Science can neither prove nor can it disprove the existence of God, nor has it any reason to do either.
The Bible is not a scientific book, it simply does not deal with those types of subjects.
I would never tell anyone not to believe in their religion, that is a question we must all answer for ourselves.
I will not tolerate anyone telling me what I must believe or trying to impose their beliefs upon me or my country.
I also will not tolerate anyone persecuting another because of race, religion,sexual orientation(gay or straight)or eye color.
I want to make my life on Earth as ideal as possible, I'm not looking for a reward after death. Death holds no dread for me. Having experienced great pain in my life(physical and mental) death is seen by me as the final rest, the end of pain. I will delay it as long as I can, as long as life is worth living but will not fear the end of life.
Hope this answers your questions.
Grumpy
You would be correct in thinking I do not believe in an afterlife, but that makes it even more important to make this life as good and productive as possible. No that does not mean anything goes, I also believe that to treat your fellow man in the same manner you would wish to be treated makes life more worthwhile. The other main enjoyment, intellectually, is to learn as much about the wonders of the universe as possible(I read Physics books for entertainment). Without promise of reward when we die, it is also very important that our lives be governed by reality and not limited by superstition(of any kind). I want kids to be taught science which can be supported by the evidence, if their parents wish to add religious teachings to this, that is their right but it should not be taught in the schools.
Religion cannot answer scientific questions nor can science answer religious questions.
Science can neither prove nor can it disprove the existence of God, nor has it any reason to do either.
The Bible is not a scientific book, it simply does not deal with those types of subjects.
I would never tell anyone not to believe in their religion, that is a question we must all answer for ourselves.
I will not tolerate anyone telling me what I must believe or trying to impose their beliefs upon me or my country.
I also will not tolerate anyone persecuting another because of race, religion,sexual orientation(gay or straight)or eye color.
I want to make my life on Earth as ideal as possible, I'm not looking for a reward after death. Death holds no dread for me. Having experienced great pain in my life(physical and mental) death is seen by me as the final rest, the end of pain. I will delay it as long as I can, as long as life is worth living but will not fear the end of life.
Hope this answers your questions.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Oct 23 2005, 01:16 AM)
new guy
You would be correct in thinking I do not believe in an afterlife, but that makes it even more important to make this life as good and productive as possible. No that does not mean anything goes, I also believe that to treat your fellow man in the same manner you would wish to be treated makes life more worthwhile. The other main enjoyment, intellectually, is to learn as much about the wonders of the universe as possible(I read Physics books for entertainment). Without promise of reward when we die, it is also very important that our lives be governed by reality and not limited by superstition(of any kind). I want kids to be taught science which can be supported by the evidence, if their parents wish to add religious teachings to this, that is their right but it should not be taught in the schools.
Grumpy: Once again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. I certainly don't want to waste your time, but I would like to ask a follow-up question or two after reading your response. My first question would be:
What would you describe as being "productive" if this life is all there is? If you just go back to the dust when everything is said and done, then what sort of real "productivity" can there be?
My second question would be if, just for argument's sake(of course you believe there is no argument), the theory of evolution is correct, what do you think I personally(I'm asking, so let it fly) would be missing out on in life by rejecting it? I ask this in light of your comment about "our lives being governed by reality and not limited by superstition(of any kind)"? Of course you realize, based on my many other posts, that I don't consider Christianity to be "superstition" in any way, shape or form, but nonetheless I am still interested in your answers to these questions. My life in the present is very fulfilling indeed(although I too experience many times of different types of pain and anguish) and I also have a very genuine hope for the life hereafter, so what do you personally think that I am missing out on due to my belief system? Please don't give me the typical "whatever works for you" answer...I trust that you won't. As I said in my intro, I don't want to waste your time. If you feel that I am doing so, then please just tell me and I'll stop the questions. Thanks.
You would be correct in thinking I do not believe in an afterlife, but that makes it even more important to make this life as good and productive as possible. No that does not mean anything goes, I also believe that to treat your fellow man in the same manner you would wish to be treated makes life more worthwhile. The other main enjoyment, intellectually, is to learn as much about the wonders of the universe as possible(I read Physics books for entertainment). Without promise of reward when we die, it is also very important that our lives be governed by reality and not limited by superstition(of any kind). I want kids to be taught science which can be supported by the evidence, if their parents wish to add religious teachings to this, that is their right but it should not be taught in the schools.
Grumpy: Once again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. I certainly don't want to waste your time, but I would like to ask a follow-up question or two after reading your response. My first question would be:
What would you describe as being "productive" if this life is all there is? If you just go back to the dust when everything is said and done, then what sort of real "productivity" can there be?
My second question would be if, just for argument's sake(of course you believe there is no argument), the theory of evolution is correct, what do you think I personally(I'm asking, so let it fly) would be missing out on in life by rejecting it? I ask this in light of your comment about "our lives being governed by reality and not limited by superstition(of any kind)"? Of course you realize, based on my many other posts, that I don't consider Christianity to be "superstition" in any way, shape or form, but nonetheless I am still interested in your answers to these questions. My life in the present is very fulfilling indeed(although I too experience many times of different types of pain and anguish) and I also have a very genuine hope for the life hereafter, so what do you personally think that I am missing out on due to my belief system? Please don't give me the typical "whatever works for you" answer...I trust that you won't. As I said in my intro, I don't want to waste your time. If you feel that I am doing so, then please just tell me and I'll stop the questions. Thanks.
QUOTE
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
United Nations vs ....United States
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
United Nations vs ....United States
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Soloved, why are you so offensive, and so uninformed? Liberals are often very moral. Of course sometimes doing moral things makes you feel good. You know that warm fuzzy feeling you get inside when you do something nice for someone and you know you made a difference? Or maybe you have never experienced this, so think that anything that feels good is immoral, I don't know.
I don't think anyone is pro abortion (except maybe the doctor who administers them and makes their living doing this....I couldn't imagine doing this job). I am definately not 'pro life' as is describe in that debate, but pro choice. I would like to offer a few examples as to way I think having the option for an abortion is good. A woman is raped and gets pregnant. Imagine the personal pain that this could cause a woman of having a constant reminder of such a horrible physical and emotional attack (rape is most likely a much more emotionally damaging attack than physically damaging). Also imagine the damage this could cause a child finding out that his 'dad' is a rapest and he was created not out of an act of love (or even lust) but out of an act of power, control and violence. That is one situation where it is nice for a woman to be able to terminate a pregnancy now isn't it?
Also, what about a young, or proverty stricken mother who doesn't want a kid, and/or would be a terrible mother. I know its great to talk about 'responsibility' and being 'accountable', and as much as I agree with those beliefs, I think when a childs upbringing is at stake, forcing a mother to 'live with the consequences of her actions' is completely unfair to the child. How terrible is it to think of a child growing up without being loved? I think a child not being loved by their parents is a WAY WORSE thing than getting an abortion. You may disagree, but thats how I feel. So don't peg me as pro abortion because I am not 'pro life'. I am pro choice, or pro 'quality of life' with respect to growing up being loved. Again Soloved you are stuck in the simplistic mind set of "if you are not with me, you are against me" There are plenty of shades of grey in the world.
I happen to agree with Arthur on his idea of marriage. Its a legal contract between two people. If a particular church doesn't want to perform a gay marriage I don't think they should have to, but marriage is a way to show your love to your partner, and people who are gay are jsut as capable to love as straight people. Also, many churches will perform gay marriages, which is nice to see. Being gay may be a sin in christianity, but god forgives sinners as long as they believe in him with all of their heart, so I think even god would be ok with it.
Also, prayer shouldn't be banned, but leading prayers in schools forces people who don't believe to do something they are not comfortable with. Praying should be a private and personal matter, just like your relationship with god is a personal relationship.
If I remember correctly, it is always conservatives who are trying to censor language in music, which is a form of free speech.
with the courts.......isn't a jury a group of your peers? I really think your list is messed up!
Your list must only be for american conservatives, because in Canada even the conservatives don't believe in letting the United States run the world.
You said being liberal means beleiving in communism, and socialism, but I don't think you know much about communism then. Communism (in theory) isn't government control. Its about equality. Also, it seems the more conservative a government, the more control it takes on its citizens. Facists were right wing conservatives, and there was a LOT of government control.
I also know plenty of conservatives who would never EVER preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.
I think your list is seriously flawed, and very offensive.
Newguy, I hope you don't mind me commenting on your last post also. There are definately different sets of standards. And the spiritual standard is an important one. I can't speak for everyone else, but I have never intented to put it down, but just point out that it is different from the scientific standard. I think creationism, and ID are valid beliefs. Everyone has the right to hold these beliefs, BUT they are spiritual beliefs, and they hold up to the spiritual standard, but not the scientific standard. I don't think they need to hold up to the scientific standard, because they are very personal beliefs. Does it matter to you that your belief in god doesn't hold up to scientific standards? I hope not, because it doesn't have to, because they are very difficult. I also think you see the difference between the two, where as soloved wants to change the scientific standard so that his beliefs fit within it. I think that is disrespectful to both science and his christian faith (and I am not even a christian). If there is a god, I think he wouldn't be happy with needing to 'validate' your beliefs by making them fit with the scientific standard.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Liberals vs. Conservatives today: Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage Ban prayer vs ...God given rights Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech (for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views) Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide United Nations vs ....United States Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth |
Soloved, why are you so offensive, and so uninformed? Liberals are often very moral. Of course sometimes doing moral things makes you feel good. You know that warm fuzzy feeling you get inside when you do something nice for someone and you know you made a difference? Or maybe you have never experienced this, so think that anything that feels good is immoral, I don't know.
I don't think anyone is pro abortion (except maybe the doctor who administers them and makes their living doing this....I couldn't imagine doing this job). I am definately not 'pro life' as is describe in that debate, but pro choice. I would like to offer a few examples as to way I think having the option for an abortion is good. A woman is raped and gets pregnant. Imagine the personal pain that this could cause a woman of having a constant reminder of such a horrible physical and emotional attack (rape is most likely a much more emotionally damaging attack than physically damaging). Also imagine the damage this could cause a child finding out that his 'dad' is a rapest and he was created not out of an act of love (or even lust) but out of an act of power, control and violence. That is one situation where it is nice for a woman to be able to terminate a pregnancy now isn't it?
Also, what about a young, or proverty stricken mother who doesn't want a kid, and/or would be a terrible mother. I know its great to talk about 'responsibility' and being 'accountable', and as much as I agree with those beliefs, I think when a childs upbringing is at stake, forcing a mother to 'live with the consequences of her actions' is completely unfair to the child. How terrible is it to think of a child growing up without being loved? I think a child not being loved by their parents is a WAY WORSE thing than getting an abortion. You may disagree, but thats how I feel. So don't peg me as pro abortion because I am not 'pro life'. I am pro choice, or pro 'quality of life' with respect to growing up being loved. Again Soloved you are stuck in the simplistic mind set of "if you are not with me, you are against me" There are plenty of shades of grey in the world.
I happen to agree with Arthur on his idea of marriage. Its a legal contract between two people. If a particular church doesn't want to perform a gay marriage I don't think they should have to, but marriage is a way to show your love to your partner, and people who are gay are jsut as capable to love as straight people. Also, many churches will perform gay marriages, which is nice to see. Being gay may be a sin in christianity, but god forgives sinners as long as they believe in him with all of their heart, so I think even god would be ok with it.
Also, prayer shouldn't be banned, but leading prayers in schools forces people who don't believe to do something they are not comfortable with. Praying should be a private and personal matter, just like your relationship with god is a personal relationship.
If I remember correctly, it is always conservatives who are trying to censor language in music, which is a form of free speech.
with the courts.......isn't a jury a group of your peers? I really think your list is messed up!
Your list must only be for american conservatives, because in Canada even the conservatives don't believe in letting the United States run the world.
You said being liberal means beleiving in communism, and socialism, but I don't think you know much about communism then. Communism (in theory) isn't government control. Its about equality. Also, it seems the more conservative a government, the more control it takes on its citizens. Facists were right wing conservatives, and there was a LOT of government control.
I also know plenty of conservatives who would never EVER preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.
I think your list is seriously flawed, and very offensive.
Newguy, I hope you don't mind me commenting on your last post also. There are definately different sets of standards. And the spiritual standard is an important one. I can't speak for everyone else, but I have never intented to put it down, but just point out that it is different from the scientific standard. I think creationism, and ID are valid beliefs. Everyone has the right to hold these beliefs, BUT they are spiritual beliefs, and they hold up to the spiritual standard, but not the scientific standard. I don't think they need to hold up to the scientific standard, because they are very personal beliefs. Does it matter to you that your belief in god doesn't hold up to scientific standards? I hope not, because it doesn't have to, because they are very difficult. I also think you see the difference between the two, where as soloved wants to change the scientific standard so that his beliefs fit within it. I think that is disrespectful to both science and his christian faith (and I am not even a christian). If there is a god, I think he wouldn't be happy with needing to 'validate' your beliefs by making them fit with the scientific standard.
The liberal groups in this world seem to have an agenda that seeks to remove every mention of God from their world. They seem to stand for nearly everything I am opposed to. The majority of liberals believe in evolution. Now here is a direct accusation by association for you - Because of this fact, it makes it very difficult for us to accept your theory.
I would like to see some statistics that show that the majority of liberals believe in evolution. Since you claim that such a small number of people believe in it, and that evolutionists are the minority.
QUOTE
Explain to me, with your evolution perspective, how can you justify the willful destruction of a living, growing, human being?
Why is that a question of evolution to begin with? Does evolution affect every single decision of everyday life. That is a question of ethics, not evolution. Also, I thought god gave us freedom to make our own choices. Isn't abortion then a choice we are free to make, whether it is a sin or not? Anyways, I already talked about abortion, so I should not get into this again.
new guy
Raising a family who are happy, healthy and productive members of society, being there when my parents needed a shoulder to lean on, contributing my time and money to the youth of my community also flying my RC aircraft, playing chess on Saturdays at Borders, that book I've always wanted to write Auto racing on TV, a good book or movie,CSI or Law and Order, These and more contribute to a productive life.
As for believing what the scientists tell you about evolution, it is not imperative that you do, but you would miss the wonder that is nature if you reject it out of hand. I am always amazed by some Christians who presume to tell God how he could or could not create the diverse lifeforms we know have existed over time. The only people who can deny the evidence of evolution are those who are ignorant of that evidence and those who perversely deny it for whatever reason(religious or other). The evidence that evolution occured on Earth is as compelling as that for the Earth going around the sun. Despite what some think evolution and a belief in God are not incompatible, they are just different truths of the world.
The universe is a wonderful thing. If you believe God created it(or not) it is a wonder to behold, filled with beauty and light, life is the same and the study thereof is worth every minute spent. Scientists have no reason to lie about what they find , you should take them at their word.
Grumpy
Raising a family who are happy, healthy and productive members of society, being there when my parents needed a shoulder to lean on, contributing my time and money to the youth of my community also flying my RC aircraft, playing chess on Saturdays at Borders, that book I've always wanted to write Auto racing on TV, a good book or movie,CSI or Law and Order, These and more contribute to a productive life.
As for believing what the scientists tell you about evolution, it is not imperative that you do, but you would miss the wonder that is nature if you reject it out of hand. I am always amazed by some Christians who presume to tell God how he could or could not create the diverse lifeforms we know have existed over time. The only people who can deny the evidence of evolution are those who are ignorant of that evidence and those who perversely deny it for whatever reason(religious or other). The evidence that evolution occured on Earth is as compelling as that for the Earth going around the sun. Despite what some think evolution and a belief in God are not incompatible, they are just different truths of the world.
The universe is a wonderful thing. If you believe God created it(or not) it is a wonder to behold, filled with beauty and light, life is the same and the study thereof is worth every minute spent. Scientists have no reason to lie about what they find , you should take them at their word.
Grumpy
Grumpy: Just a quick response that would fall more into the category of personal info than the topic at hand. So that you don't get the wrong impression that I'm somehow missing out on the wonders of creation, the very vast majority of what I would call my free time(when I'm not bogged down with work and other responsibilities) is spent enjoying "nature" with my family. For example, my daughter, although she is only 2 1/2, has already, to name a few, ridden ponies on several occasions, fed dolphins at SeaWorld, gone into a cage of wolf puppies with me, during which time she hugged and kissed baby wolves...I've got photos, hand fed a giraffe, hand fed goats, hand and bottle fed baby deer, had her picture taken with the two of us holding a baby alligator(after an alligator show), had her picture taken with a lion(he was in a plexiglass cage at the time), seen pig races(many times), seen tiger shows, visited the zoo on numerous occasions, etc., etc., etc. The list could go on and on. Just thought I'd mention that to you. The main difference between us and you would obviously be that we give glory to God for what He has created whereas you would simply view this as the product of evolution. The point being that we are enjoying the same things, just not from the same viewpoint. Just an FYI. Thanks again for your last response. For me, personally, although I understood your definition of "productivity", your definition would fall short in that it only pertains to this life(which is certainly very, very important) but has no eternal value to it. That shouldn't surprise you, understanding my beliefs as I trust you do, but thanks for the response nonetheless.
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."(I Corinthians 15:19-20)
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."(I Corinthians 15:19-20)
QUOTE (Grumpy+Oct 23 2005, 03:30 AM)
Scientists have no reason to lie about what they find , you should take them at their word.
Grumpy
Grumpy: Ooops. Just one quick comment on that last phrase. I certainly wouldn't want to "paint with a broad brush", so to speak, and thereby offend some unnecessarily, but I personally don't think this could truly be said of all scientists. As has been already discussed by many on this forum, I trust that there are abuses by both sides of this debate, and that would necessarily include some scientists, not all.
Grumpy
Grumpy: Ooops. Just one quick comment on that last phrase. I certainly wouldn't want to "paint with a broad brush", so to speak, and thereby offend some unnecessarily, but I personally don't think this could truly be said of all scientists. As has been already discussed by many on this forum, I trust that there are abuses by both sides of this debate, and that would necessarily include some scientists, not all.
Hi all,
I realise this is a bit old, but I feel SoLoved deserves a reply
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
I believe in morality. But I believe morality includes tolerating others' mistakes, and others' lifestyles, and appreciating that people cannot be forced into a box and told how to live.
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
I'm 100% with Steveo on this one.
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Both are equally valid.
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Prayer should not be banned, at all; but why force atheist children to pray? I speak from experience when I say it does nothing more than confuse and alienate them. It is your right to pray and have a personal relationship with God; it is my right to abstain from prayer.
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Yep, to a point - I'd say if you're inciting people to go and kill a particular person or group of people, it's an abuse of free speech. The 9/11 attacks, and the recent bombings here in the UK, show that. With regards to ID in schools, ID is fine and dandy in a philosophy or RS class, but it does not belong in the science classroom; it is not an established or proven theory.
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
I don't know, not being American. I'd say the law should be based on one simple rule: respect.
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
Not sure, I've not fully formed my opinions on this yet; not got enough information, to be honest. Ideally the people should decide, but sometime the people are a bit stupid. As an example of this, there was a case over here a few years back, a school caretaker killed two young girls. His girlfriend, Maxine Carr, didn't actually know what he had done and defended his alibi; her name was dragged through the dirt during the trial, but due to her ignorance of the truth, she was cleared of all misdeeds (to the best of my knowledge). She's had to assume a new identity because the public refuse to accept her innocence and have been threatening her with death. In this case, the judge was right and the people were wrong.
United Nations vs ....United States
I don't know enough about this to comment.
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
I'm all for individual freedom. The government should not be able to oppress individual freedoms, as long as they don't harm others (e.g. the freedom to go and kill your mother-in-law
). The same applies to religion, though; the freedom for homosexuals to marry, for example, should be down to the individual and not the government or religion.
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Both are necessary.
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
I don't see how these are opposites; it's possible to be an atheist or disagree with religion, but believe we're all equal.
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
I wouldn't know, but to the best of my knowledge it was the former. Either that or I've read one too many Dan Brown books
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
In the science classroom? The former, as explained above.
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
The Bible should not be banned, no way. It's your right to read and preach it. It's our right to disagree with what you say.
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
United Nations vs ....United States
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Here's how one Old Hippy (a Liberal) puts it: (note: the (*) points are my comments)
The current definition of liberal is someone who advocates economic equality (* communism) and personal freedom (*do whatever feels good) . In other words, liberals are the antithesis of conservatives (in theory anyway) (* you got that right). Conservatives advocate submission to their concept of conformity (*they value order) - usually based on religious convictions. They want everyone to toe their line (*more like keep it between the lines). Conservatives also oppose sharing the wealth. They feel they've "earned it" and expect everyone to do likewise (*yup), thus they oppose welfare and most democratic institutions that seek to help those economically disadvantaged. (*wrong)
If you are very vocal, if you defend those who others attack, if you treat people equally, if you are concerned about the rights of other people as well as animals (*above and beyond respect for humans, it seems), if you respect the environment, if you're a vegetarian (*huh?), if you advocate the use of marijuana or other mind expanding drugs (*do whatever feels good), if you entertain visions of a better world where peace, love, respect and tolerance (*read: anti-God) are not just empty words, then my friend, you are one of us, regardless of how you look!
SoLoved,
I too find this distorted 'categorization' to be offensive. I suggest you look up the words bigot and bigotry in your Webster's dictionary. I fall into neither category.
According to various polls, over 90% of Americans consider themselves to be religious, over 60% of Americans believe humans were created by God, over 75% of Americans believe God had some sort of a hand in the creation of the universe. And these numbers have been consistent for a long time. I therefore find it hard to follow your argument that all of society's ills are to be attributed to evolution. I suggest you look at the vast majority of society for those problems. Maybe if you didn't have such a close-minded 'Us vs. Them' black and white attitude you would begin to see that many contemporary problems are quite complex and require actual hard (and open-minded) thinking to understand and remedy.
Bruce
P.S. I never knew before that "entertain[ing] visions of a better world where peace, love, respect, and tolerance are not just empty words" was anti-God. So war, hate, bigotry, and intolerance are supposed to be God-like? I personally would put that in the category of 'worshipping false idols'.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
If Im conscious? The skeptic, because obviously the figure of Jesus is an apparition. If Im asleep and dreaming, who cares. But when I wake up, Ill be relived to know that such a choice is only of concern to the superstitious.
Suppose Jesus is right and you are wrong: Lifetime Earnings Decision Tree
Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mark 10:28-30)
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in e x c h a n g e for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:24-27)
How to be Saved
.
I realise this is a bit old, but I feel SoLoved deserves a reply
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
I believe in morality. But I believe morality includes tolerating others' mistakes, and others' lifestyles, and appreciating that people cannot be forced into a box and told how to live.
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
I'm 100% with Steveo on this one.
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Both are equally valid.
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Prayer should not be banned, at all; but why force atheist children to pray? I speak from experience when I say it does nothing more than confuse and alienate them. It is your right to pray and have a personal relationship with God; it is my right to abstain from prayer.
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Yep, to a point - I'd say if you're inciting people to go and kill a particular person or group of people, it's an abuse of free speech. The 9/11 attacks, and the recent bombings here in the UK, show that. With regards to ID in schools, ID is fine and dandy in a philosophy or RS class, but it does not belong in the science classroom; it is not an established or proven theory.
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
I don't know, not being American. I'd say the law should be based on one simple rule: respect.
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
Not sure, I've not fully formed my opinions on this yet; not got enough information, to be honest. Ideally the people should decide, but sometime the people are a bit stupid. As an example of this, there was a case over here a few years back, a school caretaker killed two young girls. His girlfriend, Maxine Carr, didn't actually know what he had done and defended his alibi; her name was dragged through the dirt during the trial, but due to her ignorance of the truth, she was cleared of all misdeeds (to the best of my knowledge). She's had to assume a new identity because the public refuse to accept her innocence and have been threatening her with death. In this case, the judge was right and the people were wrong.
United Nations vs ....United States
I don't know enough about this to comment.
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
I'm all for individual freedom. The government should not be able to oppress individual freedoms, as long as they don't harm others (e.g. the freedom to go and kill your mother-in-law
). The same applies to religion, though; the freedom for homosexuals to marry, for example, should be down to the individual and not the government or religion.Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Both are necessary.
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
I don't see how these are opposites; it's possible to be an atheist or disagree with religion, but believe we're all equal.
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
I wouldn't know, but to the best of my knowledge it was the former. Either that or I've read one too many Dan Brown books
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
In the science classroom? The former, as explained above.
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
The Bible should not be banned, no way. It's your right to read and preach it. It's our right to disagree with what you say.
QUOTE (SoLoved+)
Tolerant of people who believe in these things for example?
And if so, how does this manifest itself in your life?
And if not, what is your definition of tolerance?
I try to be tolerant of everyone, to a point; in my opinion, if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's not a problem. I'd say this manifests itself through my generally open mind and the way I treat others; rather than condemning them for whatever, I accept that they are human, will make mistakes, and will be different to me.
My definition of tolerance is to treat others as you would like to be treated, accept people for who they are, and respect others. But also to intervene when people suffer at the hands of others - such as oppression of certain groups' beliefs or practises. If that makes sense
Cheers
Kaeroll
And if so, how does this manifest itself in your life?
And if not, what is your definition of tolerance?
I try to be tolerant of everyone, to a point; in my opinion, if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's not a problem. I'd say this manifests itself through my generally open mind and the way I treat others; rather than condemning them for whatever, I accept that they are human, will make mistakes, and will be different to me.
My definition of tolerance is to treat others as you would like to be treated, accept people for who they are, and respect others. But also to intervene when people suffer at the hands of others - such as oppression of certain groups' beliefs or practises. If that makes sense
Cheers
Kaeroll
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 23 2005, 12:29 PM)
The main difference between us and you would obviously be that we give glory to God for what He has created whereas you would simply view this as the product of evolution. The point being that we are enjoying the same things, just not from the same viewpoint. Just an FYI. Thanks again for your last response. For me, personally, although I understood your definition of "productivity", your definition would fall short in that it only pertains to this life(which is certainly very, very important) but has no eternal value to it. That shouldn't surprise you, understanding my beliefs as I trust you do, but thanks for the response nonetheless.
Newguy,
Sounds like you're doing a great job raising your family
When you say that Grumpy (and others) would simply view the world as a product of evolution, I see your point - but disagree. This is just my opinion, of course, but I feel that the amazing, beautiful, complex world around us is as incredible if it's attributed to a supreme intelligence or God as if it has come about by itself. I find it amazing that I am made of dumb matter, but am intelligent and aware of myself (even if this is just an illusion). So I totally agree with your point that "we are enjoying the same things, just not from the same viewpoint".
Just wanted to chuck that in there, not as an argument.
Have a grand day.
Kaeroll
(whoops, sorry about the double post there ...)
Newguy,
Sounds like you're doing a great job raising your family
When you say that Grumpy (and others) would simply view the world as a product of evolution, I see your point - but disagree. This is just my opinion, of course, but I feel that the amazing, beautiful, complex world around us is as incredible if it's attributed to a supreme intelligence or God as if it has come about by itself. I find it amazing that I am made of dumb matter, but am intelligent and aware of myself (even if this is just an illusion). So I totally agree with your point that "we are enjoying the same things, just not from the same viewpoint".
Just wanted to chuck that in there, not as an argument.
Have a grand day.
Kaeroll
(whoops, sorry about the double post there ...)
QUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 22 2005, 06:00 PM)
Liberals vs. Conservatives today:
Do whatever feels good vs ..Morality
Pro-abortion vs ..Pro-life
Gay marriage vs ....Man/Woman marriage
Ban prayer vs ...God given rights
Ban selective free speech vs ...Free speech
(for example: suppress ID discussion in school, criminalize religious views)
Ban the Commandments vs .. .Law was founded on Ten Commandments
Let the Judges decide vs ...Let the People decide
United Nations vs ....United States
Governmental control vs ...Individual/Collective control
Pacifist vs .. ......Peacemaker
Anti-religion/God vs ....All are created equal
US founded on secular beliefs vs ..US founded on Godly beliefs
Teach only evolution vs ..Teach evolution and Intelligent Design
Ban the Bible vs . .Preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth
Here's how one Old Hippy (a Liberal) puts it: (note: the (*) points are my comments)
The current definition of liberal is someone who advocates economic equality (* communism) and personal freedom (*do whatever feels good) . In other words, liberals are the antithesis of conservatives (in theory anyway) (* you got that right). Conservatives advocate submission to their concept of conformity (*they value order) - usually based on religious convictions. They want everyone to toe their line (*more like keep it between the lines). Conservatives also oppose sharing the wealth. They feel they've "earned it" and expect everyone to do likewise (*yup), thus they oppose welfare and most democratic institutions that seek to help those economically disadvantaged. (*wrong)
If you are very vocal, if you defend those who others attack, if you treat people equally, if you are concerned about the rights of other people as well as animals (*above and beyond respect for humans, it seems), if you respect the environment, if you're a vegetarian (*huh?), if you advocate the use of marijuana or other mind expanding drugs (*do whatever feels good), if you entertain visions of a better world where peace, love, respect and tolerance (*read: anti-God) are not just empty words, then my friend, you are one of us, regardless of how you look!
SoLoved,
I too find this distorted 'categorization' to be offensive. I suggest you look up the words bigot and bigotry in your Webster's dictionary. I fall into neither category.
According to various polls, over 90% of Americans consider themselves to be religious, over 60% of Americans believe humans were created by God, over 75% of Americans believe God had some sort of a hand in the creation of the universe. And these numbers have been consistent for a long time. I therefore find it hard to follow your argument that all of society's ills are to be attributed to evolution. I suggest you look at the vast majority of society for those problems. Maybe if you didn't have such a close-minded 'Us vs. Them' black and white attitude you would begin to see that many contemporary problems are quite complex and require actual hard (and open-minded) thinking to understand and remedy.
Bruce
P.S. I never knew before that "entertain[ing] visions of a better world where peace, love, respect, and tolerance are not just empty words" was anti-God. So war, hate, bigotry, and intolerance are supposed to be God-like? I personally would put that in the category of 'worshipping false idols'.
new guy
There may be scientists who, for whatever reason, falsify their evidence or experimental results. The scientific method usually will weed these people out and their reputations in the science community would suffer.
But for the science of evolution to be a fake it would take a conspiracy of thousands of scientists, lab workers and assistants, field workers and thousands of others. There is an old saying that two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. A conspiracy of that size would fall apart from within in hours, if not minutes.
There are literally hundreds of tons of fossil evidence supporting what the scientists are saying, and absolutely no valid evidence(to this point in time) supporting any other interpretation of that evidence.
Those "scientists" who make statements dismissing evolution are simply wrong. Some know this but do so for purposes of their own. Those who don't are usually far outside their area of expertise. Most do it out of a false conviction that their religion is incompatible with the reality of evolution. This conviction has to be a misinterpretation of scripture on their part because the sciences involved are solid and have the same level of confidence as the sunrise in the east and the apple always falling toward the ground instead of vice versa.
Grumpy
There may be scientists who, for whatever reason, falsify their evidence or experimental results. The scientific method usually will weed these people out and their reputations in the science community would suffer.
But for the science of evolution to be a fake it would take a conspiracy of thousands of scientists, lab workers and assistants, field workers and thousands of others. There is an old saying that two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. A conspiracy of that size would fall apart from within in hours, if not minutes.
There are literally hundreds of tons of fossil evidence supporting what the scientists are saying, and absolutely no valid evidence(to this point in time) supporting any other interpretation of that evidence.
Those "scientists" who make statements dismissing evolution are simply wrong. Some know this but do so for purposes of their own. Those who don't are usually far outside their area of expertise. Most do it out of a false conviction that their religion is incompatible with the reality of evolution. This conviction has to be a misinterpretation of scripture on their part because the sciences involved are solid and have the same level of confidence as the sunrise in the east and the apple always falling toward the ground instead of vice versa.
Grumpy
Grumpy: I do have some other questions for you, surprisingly(perhaps), they would be of a scientific nature. I'm gonna hold off on asking any right now, only because I won't have the time to do the necessary legwork to debate you because of the realistic time schedule that I am presently faced with. Due to the nature of my work, I am about to enter into a 62 day timeframe during which I will be working 60 out of the 62 days(most days from 8 a.m. til 10 p.m.). On top of this, my wife is due to give birth during this same time frame, possibly with twins. Needless to say, I'm too busy at the moment, but hopefully, I will find the time to enter into more of a scientific debate with you in the not too distant future. I'm kind of deliberately shying away from the scientific end of this debate...I will jump in when I have the time necessary to do so. Until then, I'll probably just continue along the same lines that I have up until now whenever I can.
P.S. Imagine that??? Not one quote or bold-face in this response.
P.S. Imagine that??? Not one quote or bold-face in this response.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Oct 23 2005, 02:33 PM)
new guy
There may be scientists who, for whatever reason, falsify their evidence or experimental results. The scientific method usually will weed these people out and their reputations in the science community would suffer.
But for the science of evolution to be a fake it would take a conspiracy of thousands of scientists, lab workers and assistants, field workers and thousands of others. There is an old saying that two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. A conspiracy of that size would fall apart from within in hours, if not minutes.
Grumpy: By the way, just for argument's sake, the following definition comes from the "ONLINE ETYMOLOGY DICTIONARY":
conspire - c.1300, from O.FR. conspirer, from L. conspirare "to agree, unite, plot," lit. "to breathe together", from com- "together" + spirare "to breathe" (see spirit).
A "conspiracy" can simply arise from a group of people all being led by the same "spirit", whether knowingly or not. Within the teachings of Christianity, this could simply mean that this said group are all being led by "the god of this world"(II Corinthians 4:4) or "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"(Ephesians 2:2). As I said, that was just for argument's sake...although I personally have little trouble believing it.
There may be scientists who, for whatever reason, falsify their evidence or experimental results. The scientific method usually will weed these people out and their reputations in the science community would suffer.
But for the science of evolution to be a fake it would take a conspiracy of thousands of scientists, lab workers and assistants, field workers and thousands of others. There is an old saying that two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. A conspiracy of that size would fall apart from within in hours, if not minutes.
Grumpy: By the way, just for argument's sake, the following definition comes from the "ONLINE ETYMOLOGY DICTIONARY":
conspire - c.1300, from O.FR. conspirer, from L. conspirare "to agree, unite, plot," lit. "to breathe together", from com- "together" + spirare "to breathe" (see spirit).
A "conspiracy" can simply arise from a group of people all being led by the same "spirit", whether knowingly or not. Within the teachings of Christianity, this could simply mean that this said group are all being led by "the god of this world"(II Corinthians 4:4) or "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"(Ephesians 2:2). As I said, that was just for argument's sake...although I personally have little trouble believing it.
new guy
I have nothing further to add at the moment, but I sincerely hope your wife and soon to be new child(children?) are and remain healthy and happy on this most momentous occasion. Good luck.
Grumpy
I have nothing further to add at the moment, but I sincerely hope your wife and soon to be new child(children?) are and remain healthy and happy on this most momentous occasion. Good luck.
Grumpy
Grumpy: Thanks.
Hello newguy.
I hope you will allow me to add my own best wishes to those from Grumpy.
RC.
I hope you will allow me to add my own best wishes to those from Grumpy.
RC.
And mine. Hope everything goes well, Newguy.
Kaeroll
Hope everything goes well, Newguy.Kaeroll
Yes, I would also like to send my best wishes Newguy.
I would also like to offer an interpretation of the 'scientific' parts of the bible. I have presented this before, but I think Soloved was the only one who answered, and I would like your take on it. These are not my original thoughts, but regurgitated from a lecture on going past the creation/evolution debate.
Soloved has claimed that the bible is an entirely accurate book when it comes to science. I would argue that the science in the bible represents 'ancient science'. For example, on the second day of creation it says that god put water above and below the earth with a firmament inbetween. Now, without Jerry Duke's mention of the Oort Cloud, I think its pretty safe to conclude that there is no ocean in the sky. But if we consider a time several of thousands of years ago and look at it from the presepective of a person living in that time. The sea is usually some shade of blue, and so is the sky. Also, occasionally water falls from the sky, so it would be a 'reasonable' conclusion to say that there is an ocean above us being held up by something, ie. the firmament. Now, I am not arguing whether or not this is from god, because if god told this to the writers, it would make sense that he would simplify what actually happened to something that would make sense to the people then. He wouldn't go on talking about the big bang, and general relativity, and quantum mechanics. Just like if your kids asked why things fall down you wouldn't talk about general relativity, but just say that gravity makes things fall to the ground.
You might feel differently, which is fine, but to me this seems like a plausible example. And remember, the person who came up with this example is an unapologetic evangelical christian.
I would also like to offer an interpretation of the 'scientific' parts of the bible. I have presented this before, but I think Soloved was the only one who answered, and I would like your take on it. These are not my original thoughts, but regurgitated from a lecture on going past the creation/evolution debate.
Soloved has claimed that the bible is an entirely accurate book when it comes to science. I would argue that the science in the bible represents 'ancient science'. For example, on the second day of creation it says that god put water above and below the earth with a firmament inbetween. Now, without Jerry Duke's mention of the Oort Cloud, I think its pretty safe to conclude that there is no ocean in the sky. But if we consider a time several of thousands of years ago and look at it from the presepective of a person living in that time. The sea is usually some shade of blue, and so is the sky. Also, occasionally water falls from the sky, so it would be a 'reasonable' conclusion to say that there is an ocean above us being held up by something, ie. the firmament. Now, I am not arguing whether or not this is from god, because if god told this to the writers, it would make sense that he would simplify what actually happened to something that would make sense to the people then. He wouldn't go on talking about the big bang, and general relativity, and quantum mechanics. Just like if your kids asked why things fall down you wouldn't talk about general relativity, but just say that gravity makes things fall to the ground.
You might feel differently, which is fine, but to me this seems like a plausible example. And remember, the person who came up with this example is an unapologetic evangelical christian.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Oct 22 2005, 12:29 AM)
QUOTE
Jesus Christ and a skeptic are standing at an intersection directing traffic. As you approach the intersection, Jesus informs you that the straight and narrow way leads Heaven and that all the other ways lead to hell. The skeptic tells you that none of the ways lead to Heaven. Which one should you believe?
If Im conscious? The skeptic, because obviously the figure of Jesus is an apparition. If Im asleep and dreaming, who cares. But when I wake up, Ill be relived to know that such a choice is only of concern to the superstitious.
Suppose Jesus is right and you are wrong: Lifetime Earnings Decision Tree
Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mark 10:28-30)
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in e x c h a n g e for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:24-27)
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 24 2005, 03:20 PM)
Suppose Jesus is right and you are wrong: Lifetime Earnings Decision Tree
We have been over this before Jerry. From a rational point of view, how can a man who never existed be correct or one who is based on an older myth be anything other than that?
Like anything claimed to be fact, proof must be provided. The only such evidence you provide is the mythos put forth by your religious tome. That is not evidence. That is your religion.
As far as your life decision chart, again, all you have to offer is fear. Without it, you have no basis for your religion or control over your followers.
We have been over this before Jerry. From a rational point of view, how can a man who never existed be correct or one who is based on an older myth be anything other than that?
Like anything claimed to be fact, proof must be provided. The only such evidence you provide is the mythos put forth by your religious tome. That is not evidence. That is your religion.
As far as your life decision chart, again, all you have to offer is fear. Without it, you have no basis for your religion or control over your followers.
Intelligently Designed Bears?
Proof that bears are evolving into humans.
, or proof that God made intelligent animals?
Bear Proof Bird Feeder?...Depends on the Bear
We are constantly being told to ensure our yards are "bear proofed" In this case, a cabin on Long Lake ( about 300 KM SW of Prince George), the owners have a bird feeder. To keep it "bear proof" they suspended the feeder on a clothes line. But this black bear, is no ordinary bear!
First, he cases the joint.
Next, a little test. How strong is this line?
O-K let's try the old slide and chew....a little extra weight and a couple of bites
should bust this line.....
Just... a.... little.... more.......I ...can ....nearly....reach ...it.....
B I N G O!!! ( wonder if this bear's name is Yogi???)
posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 4:01 AM by Opinion250 News
(I received this in my email today and thought you might enjoy it.)
SoLoved
Proof that bears are evolving into humans.
, or proof that God made intelligent animals?Bear Proof Bird Feeder?...Depends on the Bear
We are constantly being told to ensure our yards are "bear proofed" In this case, a cabin on Long Lake ( about 300 KM SW of Prince George), the owners have a bird feeder. To keep it "bear proof" they suspended the feeder on a clothes line. But this black bear, is no ordinary bear!
First, he cases the joint.
Next, a little test. How strong is this line?
O-K let's try the old slide and chew....a little extra weight and a couple of bites
should bust this line.....
Just... a.... little.... more.......I ...can ....nearly....reach ...it.....
B I N G O!!! ( wonder if this bear's name is Yogi???)
posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 4:01 AM by Opinion250 News
(I received this in my email today and thought you might enjoy it.)
SoLoved
RC, Kaeroll, Steveo: Thanks for the well wishes.
Steveo: I'm sorry that I don't have the time presently to "go over my notes", so to speak, but one of the "theories"(I said "theories") that I remember hearing over the years regarding the "water above the firmament" was that before Noah's flood there was some sort of "water canopy" encircling the earth. This water purportedly came down during the deluge in the time of Noah. I remember seeing(like I said, I'll need to go over my notes) fossil records that seemed to indicate that the world was once sort of a "global greenhouse" due to this canopy being around the earth(I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing fossil records that indicated, for example, that the north pole was once some sort of tropical paradise). Supposedly(I said supposedly) this water canopy helped block UV rays and contributed to people living longer prior to the flood. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there for now. When I have more time(that might not be until January), I'll try to find some documentation of this "theory" and maybe even post some photos. Feel free to tell me what you think of this if you'd like. Like I said, I won't be able to offer any documentation of what I just mentioned for a little while due to my intensely busy schedule(I haven't even finished unpacking and I moved two months ago). Talk to you later.
Steveo: I'm sorry that I don't have the time presently to "go over my notes", so to speak, but one of the "theories"(I said "theories") that I remember hearing over the years regarding the "water above the firmament" was that before Noah's flood there was some sort of "water canopy" encircling the earth. This water purportedly came down during the deluge in the time of Noah. I remember seeing(like I said, I'll need to go over my notes) fossil records that seemed to indicate that the world was once sort of a "global greenhouse" due to this canopy being around the earth(I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing fossil records that indicated, for example, that the north pole was once some sort of tropical paradise). Supposedly(I said supposedly) this water canopy helped block UV rays and contributed to people living longer prior to the flood. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there for now. When I have more time(that might not be until January), I'll try to find some documentation of this "theory" and maybe even post some photos. Feel free to tell me what you think of this if you'd like. Like I said, I won't be able to offer any documentation of what I just mentioned for a little while due to my intensely busy schedule(I haven't even finished unpacking and I moved two months ago). Talk to you later.
A "water canopy" such as needed for the "flood" could not phyiscally exist.
It it did, the surface of the earth would not be warm, it would be frozen solid, as no energy would make it through said canopy.
Alaska was warm because it was nowhere near the arctic circle at the time.
Arthur
It it did, the surface of the earth would not be warm, it would be frozen solid, as no energy would make it through said canopy.
Alaska was warm because it was nowhere near the arctic circle at the time.
Arthur
QUOTE (Steveo+Oct 24 2005, 11:10 AM)
For example, on the second day of creation it says that god put water above and below the earth with a firmament inbetween. Now, without Jerry Duke's mention of the Oort Cloud, I think its pretty safe to conclude that there is no ocean in the sky. But if we consider a time several of thousands of years ago and look at it from the presepective of a person living in that time. The sea is usually some shade of blue, and so is the sky. Also, occasionally water falls from the sky, so it would be a 'reasonable' conclusion to say that there is an ocean above us being held up by something, ie. the firmament. Now, I am not arguing whether or not this is from god, because if god told this to the writers, it would make sense that he would simplify what actually happened to something that would make sense to the people then. He wouldn't go on talking about the big bang, and general relativity, and quantum mechanics. Just like if your kids asked why things fall down you wouldn't talk about general relativity, but just say that gravity makes things fall to the ground.
Consider the planet Neptune - they say that it's atmosphere is deep blue, hydrogen-rich. It's mantle is a soupy layer of hydrogen and other gases. It's outer core a hot chemical soup composed of water and various other substances in liquid form. It's inner core possible a sphere of rock and/or ice.
I have said that I believe the universe is a playground - created for us by God. We are naturally curious about the world and the universe that surrounds us. Perhaps the planets - all the way to the outer edges of the universe - paint a picture for us of how the earth was created. From the smallest to the grandest of steps. If God is the Intelligent Designer - perhaps He has designed a Masterpiece for your eyes to feast upon and for your mind to fathom.
I'm not trying to be poetic here - just trying to get you to look at the big picture. Lay it out in front of you and see if it makes sense.
The writings of the Bible reveal too much of things that were impossible for them to know unless a Very Smart Designer told them. I would not doubt that men and women from the days of Genesis were far more intelligent than we are today.
I understand that you mean God would not use words like general relativity and quantum mechanics - but He did use words that apparently we don't understand.
From Genesis:
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Go here - to hear the rest of the story:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...201;&version=9;
SoLoved
Consider the planet Neptune - they say that it's atmosphere is deep blue, hydrogen-rich. It's mantle is a soupy layer of hydrogen and other gases. It's outer core a hot chemical soup composed of water and various other substances in liquid form. It's inner core possible a sphere of rock and/or ice.
I have said that I believe the universe is a playground - created for us by God. We are naturally curious about the world and the universe that surrounds us. Perhaps the planets - all the way to the outer edges of the universe - paint a picture for us of how the earth was created. From the smallest to the grandest of steps. If God is the Intelligent Designer - perhaps He has designed a Masterpiece for your eyes to feast upon and for your mind to fathom.
I'm not trying to be poetic here - just trying to get you to look at the big picture. Lay it out in front of you and see if it makes sense.
QUOTE
He wouldn't go on talking about the big bang, and general relativity, and quantum mechanics. J
The writings of the Bible reveal too much of things that were impossible for them to know unless a Very Smart Designer told them. I would not doubt that men and women from the days of Genesis were far more intelligent than we are today.
I understand that you mean God would not use words like general relativity and quantum mechanics - but He did use words that apparently we don't understand.
From Genesis:
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Go here - to hear the rest of the story:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...201;&version=9;
SoLoved
OK, let me extrapolate a solution here...bear with me it's laden with sarcasm.
So this firmament must be between us and space right? So basically it's the 'atmosphere' correct? And then it goes on...
So this firmament must be between us and space right? So basically it's the 'atmosphere' correct? And then it goes on...
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Then we go on to say that there are stars and the sun and the moon inside this firmament? Wow starts and the moon and the sun in the atmosphere of the earth...what a wild concept.
And actually, there was not a word in that that I did not understand, and I will willingly admit that I am not the most educated of men.
In my haste I forgot to mention that in Psalms it says the firmament is still there. Even today there is an "ocean" above us. Now, we have plenty of evidence, and actual proof that it isn't....at least not in the atmosphere. We have gone all the way to the moon with people, and to the edge of the solar system with umanned space crafts and haven't ran into water. Also the fact that we can see so far into the universe is strong evidence for there not being water out there in deep space (at least not as an ocean of liquid water). This is why I say thje bible illustrates ancient science, because its fairly clear it was talking about the blue atmosphere. Anyways, goodluck with your christmas season, my dad has his own business and also gets very busy during christmas, so I know what you mean about a lack of time.
Hahaha, wouldn't that be something eh?
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
QUOTE
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
So this firmament must be between us and space right? So basically it's the 'atmosphere' correct? And then it goes on...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. |
So this firmament must be between us and space right? So basically it's the 'atmosphere' correct? And then it goes on...
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Then we go on to say that there are stars and the sun and the moon inside this firmament? Wow starts and the moon and the sun in the atmosphere of the earth...what a wild concept.
QUOTE
I understand that you mean God would not use words like general relativity and quantum mechanics - but He did use words that apparently we don't understand.
And actually, there was not a word in that that I did not understand, and I will willingly admit that I am not the most educated of men.
Arthur: I only have a minute(it's 3:30 a.m. and I'm getting ready to leave for work)... I'm not suggesting that all of the waters necessary for the flood came from above. The Bible narrative itself does not suggest this:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."(Genesis 7:11)
"The fountains of the great deep" would also apparently be a source of the water needed for a global flood. I cannot comment on this anymore at this time as I have to leave for work. I'm sorry about the "busy-ness" of my "business", but that's simply something that I have to deal with every year around this time. Don't want to "hit and run", so to speak, but I've gotta go for now... Later.
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."(Genesis 7:11)
"The fountains of the great deep" would also apparently be a source of the water needed for a global flood. I cannot comment on this anymore at this time as I have to leave for work. I'm sorry about the "busy-ness" of my "business", but that's simply something that I have to deal with every year around this time. Don't want to "hit and run", so to speak, but I've gotta go for now... Later.
Oh... look at how wonderful if God was in the picture
hmmm.... I can see my self able to explain everything
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cant remember how I was born and the earliest memory I can remember was when i was about 3yrs old.... "Oh God did it so that you dont have to remember how dumb you were when you were born... I can remember every single event of your childlife... you used to fall over every second step."
How did these stars hold themselves up against the starry night sky...? "God put them up so that we can see something at night-time"
What about the moon? Where does its light come from? "Oh....ummm.... God made the moonshine so that we could get drunk by looking at it... Oh damn I bumped into a tree coz the moonshine was way too bright! D'oh... Do'h!"
What about the sun daddy? "God made it work by creating light... See if you put a pebble against the sun its about the same size see? That means the sun is really a very hot and bright rock"
Why am i here? "God made you exist for a reason... to bow down to God's almighty prescence and worship him in eternity for ever amen... Oh he made you so that he could eat you after you die.... After all he made you out of dirt in the same way a woman makes a cake..."
Ok then my future is futile... and pointless. Id better do something about it so that I dont have to remind myself about God's desire for me when i die. Ok ill be in my bedroom studying for the school exams...
hmmm.... I can see my self able to explain everything
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cant remember how I was born and the earliest memory I can remember was when i was about 3yrs old.... "Oh God did it so that you dont have to remember how dumb you were when you were born... I can remember every single event of your childlife... you used to fall over every second step."
How did these stars hold themselves up against the starry night sky...? "God put them up so that we can see something at night-time"
What about the moon? Where does its light come from? "Oh....ummm.... God made the moonshine so that we could get drunk by looking at it... Oh damn I bumped into a tree coz the moonshine was way too bright! D'oh... Do'h!"
What about the sun daddy? "God made it work by creating light... See if you put a pebble against the sun its about the same size see? That means the sun is really a very hot and bright rock"
Why am i here? "God made you exist for a reason... to bow down to God's almighty prescence and worship him in eternity for ever amen... Oh he made you so that he could eat you after you die.... After all he made you out of dirt in the same way a woman makes a cake..."
Ok then my future is futile... and pointless. Id better do something about it so that I dont have to remind myself about God's desire for me when i die. Ok ill be in my bedroom studying for the school exams...
QUOTE
Steveo: I'm sorry that I don't have the time presently to "go over my notes", so to speak, but one of the "theories"(I said "theories") that I remember hearing over the years regarding the "water above the firmament" was that before Noah's flood there was some sort of "water canopy" encircling the earth. This water purportedly came down during the deluge in the time of Noah. I remember seeing(like I said, I'll need to go over my notes) fossil records that seemed to indicate that the world was once sort of a "global greenhouse" due to this canopy being around the earth(I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing fossil records that indicated, for example, that the north pole was once some sort of tropical paradise). Supposedly(I said supposedly) this water canopy helped block UV rays and contributed to people living longer prior to the flood. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there for now. When I have more time(that might not be until January), I'll try to find some documentation of this "theory" and maybe even post some photos. Feel free to tell me what you think of this if you'd like. Like I said, I won't be able to offer any documentation of what I just mentioned for a little while due to my intensely busy schedule(I haven't even finished unpacking and I moved two months ago). Talk to you later.
In my haste I forgot to mention that in Psalms it says the firmament is still there. Even today there is an "ocean" above us. Now, we have plenty of evidence, and actual proof that it isn't....at least not in the atmosphere. We have gone all the way to the moon with people, and to the edge of the solar system with umanned space crafts and haven't ran into water. Also the fact that we can see so far into the universe is strong evidence for there not being water out there in deep space (at least not as an ocean of liquid water). This is why I say thje bible illustrates ancient science, because its fairly clear it was talking about the blue atmosphere. Anyways, goodluck with your christmas season, my dad has his own business and also gets very busy during christmas, so I know what you mean about a lack of time.
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 25 2005, 07:36 AM)
Arthur: I only have a minute(it's 3:30 a.m. and I'm getting ready to leave for work)... I'm not suggesting that all of the waters necessary for the flood came from above. The Bible narrative itself does not suggest this:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."(Genesis 7:11)
"The fountains of the great deep" would also apparently be a source of the water needed for a global flood. I cannot comment on this anymore at this time as I have to leave for work. I'm sorry about the "busy-ness" of my "business", but that's simply something that I have to deal with every year around this time. Don't want to "hit and run", so to speak, but I've gotta go for now... Later.
Its not really a problem of where the water CAME from.
(This would entail proving a negative)
The PROBLEM, is WHERE DID IT GO?
The bible has it slowly receding.
To where?
Arthur
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."(Genesis 7:11)
"The fountains of the great deep" would also apparently be a source of the water needed for a global flood. I cannot comment on this anymore at this time as I have to leave for work. I'm sorry about the "busy-ness" of my "business", but that's simply something that I have to deal with every year around this time. Don't want to "hit and run", so to speak, but I've gotta go for now... Later.
Its not really a problem of where the water CAME from.
(This would entail proving a negative)
The PROBLEM, is WHERE DID IT GO?
The bible has it slowly receding.
To where?
Arthur
Steveo -
Get with the program! Don't you know there's a government conspiracy going on? We're led to believe the ISS stands for 'International Space Station', when it really stands for 'International Space Submarine'! All those 'Apollo-landings-didn't-really-happen' conspiracists got it only partly right. They thought all that video and film from the moon was shot in an elaborate swimming pool. Actually it was shot on the moon, but the 'swimming pool' was just the 'firmament'.
Get with the program! Don't you know there's a government conspiracy going on? We're led to believe the ISS stands for 'International Space Station', when it really stands for 'International Space Submarine'! All those 'Apollo-landings-didn't-really-happen' conspiracists got it only partly right. They thought all that video and film from the moon was shot in an elaborate swimming pool. Actually it was shot on the moon, but the 'swimming pool' was just the 'firmament'.
QUOTE
Steveo -
Get with the program! Don't you know there's a government conspiracy going on? We're led to believe the ISS stands for 'International Space Station', when it really stands for 'International Space Submarine'! All those 'Apollo-landings-didn't-really-happen' conspiracists got it only partly right. They thought all that video and film from the moon was shot in an elaborate swimming pool. Actually it was shot on the moon, but the 'swimming pool' was just the 'firmament'.
Get with the program! Don't you know there's a government conspiracy going on? We're led to believe the ISS stands for 'International Space Station', when it really stands for 'International Space Submarine'! All those 'Apollo-landings-didn't-really-happen' conspiracists got it only partly right. They thought all that video and film from the moon was shot in an elaborate swimming pool. Actually it was shot on the moon, but the 'swimming pool' was just the 'firmament'.
Hahaha, wouldn't that be something eh?
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 25 2005, 03:22 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 25 2005, 07:36 AM)
Arthur: I only have a minute(it's 3:30 a.m. and I'm getting ready to leave for work)... I'm not suggesting that all of the waters necessary for the flood came from above. The Bible narrative itself does not suggest this:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."(Genesis 7:11)
"The fountains of the great deep" would also apparently be a source of the water needed for a global flood. I cannot comment on this anymore at this time as I have to leave for work. I'm sorry about the "busy-ness" of my "business", but that's simply something that I have to deal with every year around this time. Don't want to "hit and run", so to speak, but I've gotta go for now... Later.
Its not really a problem of where the water CAME from.
(This would entail proving a negative)
The PROBLEM, is WHERE DID IT GO?
The bible has it slowly receding.
To where?
Arthur
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (Psalm 104:6-9)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Thanks for misquoting me Jerry. If you read a bit further, I did say that I meant no ocean of water. We sure have found ice, usually on planets, but this doesn't account for the oceans of water above us accounted for in the bible. And remember the bible is entirely literal, so where is this ocean? Is it a magic ocean that can't be detected? And don't again try and claim that the Oort cloud is this ocean, because the bible ISN'T open to interpretation as I have heard from some of the christians in here.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Thanks for misquoting me Jerry. If you read a bit further, I did say that I meant no ocean of water. We sure have found ice, usually on planets, but this doesn't account for the oceans of water above us accounted for in the bible. And remember the bible is entirely literal, so where is this ocean? Is it a magic ocean that can't be detected? And don't again try and claim that the Oort cloud is this ocean, because the bible ISN'T open to interpretation as I have heard from some of the christians in here.
1. I'm sorry if I offended you by taking an excerpt from you post. I'm just trying to conserve space and comment on what I believe is relevant. I always leave the date and time stamp with the quote so that anyone can refer back to the original post. I also insert "..." before and/or after the excerpt to indicate that there is something omitted that preceded or followed the quoted portion.
Thanks for misquoting me Jerry. If you read a bit further, I did say that I meant no ocean of water. We sure have found ice, usually on planets, but this doesn't account for the oceans of water above us accounted for in the bible. And remember the bible is entirely literal, so where is this ocean? Is it a magic ocean that can't be detected? And don't again try and claim that the Oort cloud is this ocean, because the bible ISN'T open to interpretation as I have heard from some of the christians in here.
1. I'm sorry if I offended you by taking an excerpt from you post. I'm just trying to conserve space and comment on what I believe is relevant. I always leave the date and time stamp with the quote so that anyone can refer back to the original post. I also insert "..." before and/or after the excerpt to indicate that there is something omitted that preceded or followed the quoted portion.
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."(Genesis 7:11)
"The fountains of the great deep" would also apparently be a source of the water needed for a global flood. I cannot comment on this anymore at this time as I have to leave for work. I'm sorry about the "busy-ness" of my "business", but that's simply something that I have to deal with every year around this time. Don't want to "hit and run", so to speak, but I've gotta go for now... Later.
Its not really a problem of where the water CAME from.
(This would entail proving a negative)
The PROBLEM, is WHERE DID IT GO?
The bible has it slowly receding.
To where?
Arthur
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (Psalm 104:6-9)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Just a an update in the struggle against mysticism.
QUOTE
http://www.physorg.com/news7542.html
Rawlings made the statement during his state of the university address last week, the New York Times reported Tuesday.
His staff told the Times Rawlings discussed the topic, in part because he is serving only temporarily as president. He was Cornell's president from 1995 to 2003, and returned after Jeffrey Lehman resigned in June, citing differences with the university's trustees.
Intelligent design is a theory that says the universe is too complex to be the result of evolution and natural selection and, therefore, a higher power is responsible. Rawlings denounced intelligent design as a "religious belief masquerading as a secular idea."
Declaring the question a cultural issue and not a scientific one, Rawlings noted religious groups have disputed the theory of evolution since Charles Darwin published "The Origin of Species" in 1859. He urged Cornell's staff to object to any blurring of the line between religion and science.
John West, a fellow at the Discovery Institute in Seattle -- a leader in the intelligent design movement -- told the Times he's concerned Rawlings is "fanning the flames of intolerance."
Rawlings made the statement during his state of the university address last week, the New York Times reported Tuesday.
His staff told the Times Rawlings discussed the topic, in part because he is serving only temporarily as president. He was Cornell's president from 1995 to 2003, and returned after Jeffrey Lehman resigned in June, citing differences with the university's trustees.
Intelligent design is a theory that says the universe is too complex to be the result of evolution and natural selection and, therefore, a higher power is responsible. Rawlings denounced intelligent design as a "religious belief masquerading as a secular idea."
Declaring the question a cultural issue and not a scientific one, Rawlings noted religious groups have disputed the theory of evolution since Charles Darwin published "The Origin of Species" in 1859. He urged Cornell's staff to object to any blurring of the line between religion and science.
John West, a fellow at the Discovery Institute in Seattle -- a leader in the intelligent design movement -- told the Times he's concerned Rawlings is "fanning the flames of intolerance."
QUOTE (Steveo+Oct 25 2005, 02:39 PM)
... We have gone all the way to the moon with people, and to the edge of the solar system with umanned space crafts and haven't ran into water ...
Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice.
Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 25 2005, 05:28 PM)
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (Psalm 104:6-9)
Ok, so "they go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them."
Doesn't really answer the question now does it?
Where is this PLACE?
Its NOT here on EARTH.
Arthur
Ok, so "they go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them."
Doesn't really answer the question now does it?
Where is this PLACE?
Its NOT here on EARTH.
Arthur
QUOTE
Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice.
Thanks for misquoting me Jerry. If you read a bit further, I did say that I meant no ocean of water. We sure have found ice, usually on planets, but this doesn't account for the oceans of water above us accounted for in the bible. And remember the bible is entirely literal, so where is this ocean? Is it a magic ocean that can't be detected? And don't again try and claim that the Oort cloud is this ocean, because the bible ISN'T open to interpretation as I have heard from some of the christians in here.
QUOTE (rekabis+Aug 9 2005, 10:30 PM)
http://www.physorg.com/news5716.html
...
Now we have another debate between the voice of Science (evolution) and the voice of Religion (intelligent design). But is there really any need for such a debate to occur again? Not really.
...
COURSE FINDS COMMON GROUND BETWEEN SCIENCE, CHRISTIANITY
The intelligent design debate often sees Christians and scientists as implacable enemies, but a group of students studying in a Macquarie Christian Studies Institute (MSCI) classroom in Australia search for common ground. Dr. Frank Stootman is the lecturer of the unit called Science and Christian Belief: An Open Dialogue. The course is open to university students and the general public in Sydney and Melbourne. Stootman, a physicist, is an associate professor at the University of Western Sydney. Historically, science did not deny the existence of God. Many of the early scientists were Christians and took it seriously, he said. The Christian worldview has been very important in the development of science as we know it. He added that biblical Christianity argues that the knowledge of God has a rational basis in the same way as science does about the physical world. Whilst this may lead to tense debate, there is common ground that deserves to be explored by both sides. The MCSI classroom exposes students to a range of philosophical issues which arise from modern physics and science. It then goes on to explore how these have changed our view of the world and how belief in God continues to be relevant. (Macquarie Christian Studies Institute)
...
Now we have another debate between the voice of Science (evolution) and the voice of Religion (intelligent design). But is there really any need for such a debate to occur again? Not really.
...
COURSE FINDS COMMON GROUND BETWEEN SCIENCE, CHRISTIANITY
The intelligent design debate often sees Christians and scientists as implacable enemies, but a group of students studying in a Macquarie Christian Studies Institute (MSCI) classroom in Australia search for common ground. Dr. Frank Stootman is the lecturer of the unit called Science and Christian Belief: An Open Dialogue. The course is open to university students and the general public in Sydney and Melbourne. Stootman, a physicist, is an associate professor at the University of Western Sydney. Historically, science did not deny the existence of God. Many of the early scientists were Christians and took it seriously, he said. The Christian worldview has been very important in the development of science as we know it. He added that biblical Christianity argues that the knowledge of God has a rational basis in the same way as science does about the physical world. Whilst this may lead to tense debate, there is common ground that deserves to be explored by both sides. The MCSI classroom exposes students to a range of philosophical issues which arise from modern physics and science. It then goes on to explore how these have changed our view of the world and how belief in God continues to be relevant. (Macquarie Christian Studies Institute)
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Steveo+Oct 26 2005, 03:36 PM)
QUOTE
Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice.
Thanks for misquoting me Jerry. If you read a bit further, I did say that I meant no ocean of water. We sure have found ice, usually on planets, but this doesn't account for the oceans of water above us accounted for in the bible. And remember the bible is entirely literal, so where is this ocean? Is it a magic ocean that can't be detected? And don't again try and claim that the Oort cloud is this ocean, because the bible ISN'T open to interpretation as I have heard from some of the christians in here.
1. I'm sorry if I offended you by taking an excerpt from you post. I'm just trying to conserve space and comment on what I believe is relevant. I always leave the date and time stamp with the quote so that anyone can refer back to the original post. I also insert "..." before and/or after the excerpt to indicate that there is something omitted that preceded or followed the quoted portion.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice. |
Thanks for misquoting me Jerry. If you read a bit further, I did say that I meant no ocean of water. We sure have found ice, usually on planets, but this doesn't account for the oceans of water above us accounted for in the bible. And remember the bible is entirely literal, so where is this ocean? Is it a magic ocean that can't be detected? And don't again try and claim that the Oort cloud is this ocean, because the bible ISN'T open to interpretation as I have heard from some of the christians in here.
1. I'm sorry if I offended you by taking an excerpt from you post. I'm just trying to conserve space and comment on what I believe is relevant. I always leave the date and time stamp with the quote so that anyone can refer back to the original post. I also insert "..." before and/or after the excerpt to indicate that there is something omitted that preceded or followed the quoted portion.
QUOTE (Steveo+Oct 25 2005, 02:39 PM)
... We have gone all the way to the moon with people, and to the edge of the solar system with umanned space crafts and haven't ran into water ...
Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice.
2. You need to state your source for the "oceans of water above us". There is no mention of them in the Holy Bible.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. (Genesis 1:6-7)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Water exists in three states; solid, liquid and vapor. I read articles all the time that tell about space probes discovering water. Most of it seems to be in the form of ice.
2. You need to state your source for the "oceans of water above us". There is no mention of them in the Holy Bible.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. (Genesis 1:6-7)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic.
The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself.
Following are examples of two interpretations - but both have the same literal meanings behind them:
10Jesus said, "You're a respected teacher of Israel and you don't know these basics?
11Listen carefully. I'm speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions.
12If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don't believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of God?
John 3:10-12 The Message
or if you prefer a more traditional version....
10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:10-12 KJV
Regarding the firament issue - consider these statements:
------------------------------- Genesis 1:-9 ---------------------------------
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(Step 1: At this point, the Earth was made of just water. It did not have a water canopy above it.)
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
(Step 2: The Earth is still just water, but now it has a "firmament" separating its water from a canopy of water above it. The big question at this point is whether or not this "firmament" is referring to Earth's atmosphere, or to all of interstellar space. Read on.)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
(Again, we see a clear indication of a "firmament" separating the water canopy from the water that makes up the early Earth)
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
(Step 3: The firmament is given a name: "Heaven".
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
(Step 4: The waters under the firmament (Heaven) are gathered together and dry land appears. The waters above "Heaven" are still there, but we still don't have the answer to how big the firmament is at this point. Read on).
------------------------------- Genesis 1:-14-17 ---------------------------------
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
(Step 5: God creates the Sun, Moon and stars.)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
(Step 6: He puts the Sun, Moon and stars "in" the "firmament of the heaven". This verse seems to rule out the possibility that "heaven" or the "firmament" could be referring to Earth's atmosphere in these verses, because God clearly put the Sun, Moon and stars outside of our atmosphere. There are other verses that have been used by many creationists to suggest that this water canopy stayed close to the earth and contributed to Noah's flood. However, Dr. Humphreys makes some pretty compelling arguments against interpreting those verses that way. So what we seem to be left with is that we still have a water canopy above the firmament, which has now been defined as interstellar space. Does the Bible support this idea anywhere else? It seems that it does. Consider this next verse.)
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens.
Psalms 148:4
(On the surface, this verse may not look that compelling. One commentary I read suggested that 'heavens of heavens' was referring to the upper atmosphere. I spoke to a meteorologist and asked him how high rain clouds can go. He said they can go 60,000 feet up, an area that is considered to be in the lower part of the 'upper atmosphere'. He also said that some rare clouds that don't produce rain can be present as high as 80,000 feet. The problem I have with interpreting this to mean water in the atmosphere is that it clearly says the waters are 'above', not within the 'heavens'. So it seems to make more sense that this verse is talking about the same water canopy that surrounds the universe as what the above verses in Genesis were referring to.)
Source of this quote: http://www.creationists.org/universeisfinite.html
Additional info: http://www.creationists.org/starlighttime.html
SoLoved
John 3:16-17
17For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
....literally
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic.
The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself.
Following are examples of two interpretations - but both have the same literal meanings behind them:
10Jesus said, "You're a respected teacher of Israel and you don't know these basics?
11Listen carefully. I'm speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions.
12If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don't believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of God?
John 3:10-12 The Message
or if you prefer a more traditional version....
10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:10-12 KJV
Regarding the firament issue - consider these statements:
QUOTE
------------------------------- Genesis 1:-9 ---------------------------------
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(Step 1: At this point, the Earth was made of just water. It did not have a water canopy above it.)
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
(Step 2: The Earth is still just water, but now it has a "firmament" separating its water from a canopy of water above it. The big question at this point is whether or not this "firmament" is referring to Earth's atmosphere, or to all of interstellar space. Read on.)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
(Again, we see a clear indication of a "firmament" separating the water canopy from the water that makes up the early Earth)
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
(Step 3: The firmament is given a name: "Heaven".
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
(Step 4: The waters under the firmament (Heaven) are gathered together and dry land appears. The waters above "Heaven" are still there, but we still don't have the answer to how big the firmament is at this point. Read on).
------------------------------- Genesis 1:-14-17 ---------------------------------
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
(Step 5: God creates the Sun, Moon and stars.)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
(Step 6: He puts the Sun, Moon and stars "in" the "firmament of the heaven". This verse seems to rule out the possibility that "heaven" or the "firmament" could be referring to Earth's atmosphere in these verses, because God clearly put the Sun, Moon and stars outside of our atmosphere. There are other verses that have been used by many creationists to suggest that this water canopy stayed close to the earth and contributed to Noah's flood. However, Dr. Humphreys makes some pretty compelling arguments against interpreting those verses that way. So what we seem to be left with is that we still have a water canopy above the firmament, which has now been defined as interstellar space. Does the Bible support this idea anywhere else? It seems that it does. Consider this next verse.)
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens.
Psalms 148:4
(On the surface, this verse may not look that compelling. One commentary I read suggested that 'heavens of heavens' was referring to the upper atmosphere. I spoke to a meteorologist and asked him how high rain clouds can go. He said they can go 60,000 feet up, an area that is considered to be in the lower part of the 'upper atmosphere'. He also said that some rare clouds that don't produce rain can be present as high as 80,000 feet. The problem I have with interpreting this to mean water in the atmosphere is that it clearly says the waters are 'above', not within the 'heavens'. So it seems to make more sense that this verse is talking about the same water canopy that surrounds the universe as what the above verses in Genesis were referring to.)
Source of this quote: http://www.creationists.org/universeisfinite.html
Additional info: http://www.creationists.org/starlighttime.html
SoLovedJohn 3:16-17
17For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
....literally
I don't get it. What's "meaning behind interpretaion" If it were literal it would be what is says, which you say the Bible is not.
If the "meaning behind the interpretation" is literal then Your interpretation can't be interpreted, but the source material can?!
I'm lost! Can't you just call it a pretty story told around a campfire, glean the "meaning" where you can and move on? Even if God made the universe what's wrong with theorising How?
If the "meaning behind the interpretation" is literal then Your interpretation can't be interpreted, but the source material can?!
I'm lost! Can't you just call it a pretty story told around a campfire, glean the "meaning" where you can and move on? Even if God made the universe what's wrong with theorising How?
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 26 2005, 05:56 PM)
...The Bible is open to interpretation ...
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy G h o s t . (II Peter 1:20)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy G h o s t , whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy G h o s t . (II Peter 1:20)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy G h o s t , whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Capn Caveman+Oct 26 2005, 06:16 PM)
... if God made the universe what's wrong with theorising How?
Feel free to theorize to your heart's content.
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable. (Proverbs 25:2-3)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Feel free to theorize to your heart's content.
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable. (Proverbs 25:2-3)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 26 2005, 06:33 PM)
QUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 26 2005, 05:56 PM)
...The Bible is open to interpretation ...
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy G h o s t . (II Peter 1:20)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy G h o s t , whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)
So Jerry, does this mean SoLoved is going to Hell?
Arthur
I do love it when they go after each other, dueling with bible quotes, as if scripture were a six-gun and they were at the OK Corral.
This is certainly open to interpretation. I am sure our motives are pure, and that we both share the same goals - which is to bring all to salvation in Christ.
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic.
The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself.
I believe the Duke is simply trying to say that the Bible is not open to interpretation in the sense that you cannot make it say what YOU want it to say. It says what God wants it to say. We, as humans, must do our best to understand what God is trying to say.
Let's examine the scripture in question:
2 Peter 1:20-21 (King James Version)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Another interpretation:
2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version)
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.
21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Same verse, different interpretation, same meaning.
New verse, new understanding:
1 Cor 1:18-25
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.[a]
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Certainly the Bible can be interpretated differently and obviously it has been mis-interpretated by many. But in the end, it will communicate what God intended it to communicate.
SoLoved
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
Should I take that literally?
Arthur
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy G h o s t . (II Peter 1:20)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy G h o s t , whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)
So Jerry, does this mean SoLoved is going to Hell?
Arthur
I do love it when they go after each other, dueling with bible quotes, as if scripture were a six-gun and they were at the OK Corral.
QUOTE
I do love it when they go after each other, dueling with bible quotes, as if scripture were a six-gun and they were at the OK Corral.
This is certainly open to interpretation. I am sure our motives are pure, and that we both share the same goals - which is to bring all to salvation in Christ.
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic.
The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself.
I believe the Duke is simply trying to say that the Bible is not open to interpretation in the sense that you cannot make it say what YOU want it to say. It says what God wants it to say. We, as humans, must do our best to understand what God is trying to say.
Let's examine the scripture in question:
2 Peter 1:20-21 (King James Version)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Another interpretation:
2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version)
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.
21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Same verse, different interpretation, same meaning.
New verse, new understanding:
1 Cor 1:18-25
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.[a]
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Certainly the Bible can be interpretated differently and obviously it has been mis-interpretated by many. But in the end, it will communicate what God intended it to communicate.
SoLovedQUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 26 2005, 09:23 PM)
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
Should I take that literally?
Arthur
QUOTE (soloved+)
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic
So there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Genesis is a parable or symbolism?
It would seem to me, not being a biblical scholar (though I play one on TV), is that
IF the world and animals/plants/humans DID in fact come into existence based roughly upon our current scientific understanding, then wouldn't ANY explanation of that to the PEOPLE OF THE TIME and all the way until modern science could actually explain it, ONLY be done via Parable or Symbolism?
So, if you take the assumption that JUST MAYBE SCIENCE IS REASONABLY CORRECT, wouldn't this DICTATE the only POSSIBLE form Genesis could be written in?
Solved, you made what I thought was an interesting tie in to Adam/Eve and the recent discovery of the genetic change that was related to brain development, in that biblically and scientifically they appear to be roughly on the same time line.
Isn't it POSSIBLE, that this mental development is tied to a level of AWARENESS that truly made us MAN? If so how would you explain this EXCEPT as in metaphorical story? Does this not tie into the evolutionary data that we have in fact just one maternal line (the scientists who discovered this in fact called our single maternal ancestor Eve)
Couldn't your God be WISE enough to KNOW that this would occur, even if His starting point was the creation of the Universe?
He wasn't really in a hurry was he?
Having infinite time means time is not relevant.
So Loved, I doubt I'll continue these debates much longer, for reasons posted elsewhere, but I believe you to be fairly intelligent with a general understanding of science (that parts you believe at least) and with a deep knowledge of the bible. I would think that if you could get past your mental block that you could do a great deal of good, for yourself and others who must struggle with this, to find how the bible and science can relate to one another. The difference is knowing when the bible is to be taken LITERALLY and when it is to be taken METAPHORICALLY.
As you said yourself, the MESSAGE is not up for interpretation, and I don't think ANYTHING we have posted on these forums about Evolution is in CONFLICT with the MESSAGE of the bible.
You do have a MAJOR issue with Evolution as regards Social issues, Morals etc etc, but, just maybe, some of us have at least shown you that being a Moral person and believing in Evolution are not mutually exclusive.
I agree with you, that initially a lot of bigoted and immoral people twisted the limited scope of the theory of Evolution to apply it for their own purposes and could do so because of the general world wide bigotry that prevailed at the time and the general lack of scientific understanding of the people they "preached" this bigotry to. This was unfortunate, but as they say, truth wins out, and while the history of both Evolution Theory and the Bible are filled with people who would seek to use them for self aggrandizement, this makes neither of them inherently evil. The evil is only found in those who use them for evil.
Consider, that it could be possible, like the Theologian that RC went to see, that one can lead both a spiritual and scientific life and find they do not conflict.
Consider, that it could be possible, that the path you have not taken, could be even brighter in God's eyes than the one you are on.
Consider, taking some college level classes that deal with Geology and Biology (you can survey classes at most colleges for little cost and don't have to pass admission tests etc), I know your morality is not at risk, nor your faith, but TRUE understanding might make you more open to other possibilities.
Take care
Arthur
So there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Genesis is a parable or symbolism?
It would seem to me, not being a biblical scholar (though I play one on TV), is that
IF the world and animals/plants/humans DID in fact come into existence based roughly upon our current scientific understanding, then wouldn't ANY explanation of that to the PEOPLE OF THE TIME and all the way until modern science could actually explain it, ONLY be done via Parable or Symbolism?
So, if you take the assumption that JUST MAYBE SCIENCE IS REASONABLY CORRECT, wouldn't this DICTATE the only POSSIBLE form Genesis could be written in?
Solved, you made what I thought was an interesting tie in to Adam/Eve and the recent discovery of the genetic change that was related to brain development, in that biblically and scientifically they appear to be roughly on the same time line.
Isn't it POSSIBLE, that this mental development is tied to a level of AWARENESS that truly made us MAN? If so how would you explain this EXCEPT as in metaphorical story? Does this not tie into the evolutionary data that we have in fact just one maternal line (the scientists who discovered this in fact called our single maternal ancestor Eve)
Couldn't your God be WISE enough to KNOW that this would occur, even if His starting point was the creation of the Universe?
He wasn't really in a hurry was he?
Having infinite time means time is not relevant.
So Loved, I doubt I'll continue these debates much longer, for reasons posted elsewhere, but I believe you to be fairly intelligent with a general understanding of science (that parts you believe at least) and with a deep knowledge of the bible. I would think that if you could get past your mental block that you could do a great deal of good, for yourself and others who must struggle with this, to find how the bible and science can relate to one another. The difference is knowing when the bible is to be taken LITERALLY and when it is to be taken METAPHORICALLY.
As you said yourself, the MESSAGE is not up for interpretation, and I don't think ANYTHING we have posted on these forums about Evolution is in CONFLICT with the MESSAGE of the bible.
You do have a MAJOR issue with Evolution as regards Social issues, Morals etc etc, but, just maybe, some of us have at least shown you that being a Moral person and believing in Evolution are not mutually exclusive.
I agree with you, that initially a lot of bigoted and immoral people twisted the limited scope of the theory of Evolution to apply it for their own purposes and could do so because of the general world wide bigotry that prevailed at the time and the general lack of scientific understanding of the people they "preached" this bigotry to. This was unfortunate, but as they say, truth wins out, and while the history of both Evolution Theory and the Bible are filled with people who would seek to use them for self aggrandizement, this makes neither of them inherently evil. The evil is only found in those who use them for evil.
Consider, that it could be possible, like the Theologian that RC went to see, that one can lead both a spiritual and scientific life and find they do not conflict.
Consider, that it could be possible, that the path you have not taken, could be even brighter in God's eyes than the one you are on.
Consider, taking some college level classes that deal with Geology and Biology (you can survey classes at most colleges for little cost and don't have to pass admission tests etc), I know your morality is not at risk, nor your faith, but TRUE understanding might make you more open to other possibilities.
Take care
Arthur
All quotes by adoucette:
So there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Genesis is a parable or symbolism?
I kind of answered this in the Making the Case for the Bible thread.
I kind of answered this in the Making the Case for the Bible thread.
It would seem to me, not being a biblical scholar (though I play one on TV), is that
Could you please elaborate on this? Are you on TV?
Could you please elaborate on RC? Is RC Reality Check or what - and what type of or which theologian? Or was it you?
I agree that spirituality and science do not need to be in conflict.
Could you please elaborate on RC? Is RC Reality Check or what - and what type of or which theologian? Or was it you?
I agree that spirituality and science do not need to be in conflict.
Solved, you made what I thought was an interesting tie in to Adam/Eve and the recent discovery of the genetic change that was related to brain development, in that biblically and scientifically they appear to be roughly on the same time line.
Perhaps a good place to find common ground. Tell me more about what you like about this - and what does evolution have to say about it?
Probably not, but sometimes I wish He would be. But I'm glad it's in His hands, and not mine. And I bet you are too.
Probably not, but sometimes I wish He would be. But I'm glad it's in His hands, and not mine. And I bet you are too.
Consider, taking some college level classes that deal with Geology and Biology
Two points.....surely you don't think that all Christians know nothing about Geology and Biology?.....and just for the record, I do not like Biology. Biology 101 was about evolution, and I just hated it. I wrote my papers from a creationist viewpoint and discredited everything in my Biology book that related to evolution. I Aced the class - thankfully, I had a great instructor who repected my beliefs. This is an exception to the rule, from what I hear in the media.
Regards,
SoLoved
This is certainly open to interpretation. I am sure our motives are pure, and that we both share the same goals - which is to bring all to salvation in Christ.
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic.
The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself.
I believe the Duke is simply trying to say that the Bible is not open to interpretation in the sense that you cannot make it say what YOU want it to say. It says what God wants it to say. We, as humans, must do our best to understand what God is trying to say.
So as long as someone's motivations are pure (bring all to salvation in Christ) its ok to interpret things a bit differently. You said humans try to do their best to understand what god is trying to say. So then from that how is your 'brand' of christianity more correct than say Catholosicm, or any of the other factions of christianity? As long as their motives are pure right? Before I was sure you said that the bible was literal! I definately don't think it is. I think there are messages behind the stories, which is what the bible is supposed to teach. Jerry showed a bible quote that said the bible isn't up for interpretation. So I guess does that leave it up to every individual to decide for themselves? Or is there a deffinitive answer?
So as long as someone's motivations are pure (bring all to salvation in Christ) its ok to interpret things a bit differently. You said humans try to do their best to understand what god is trying to say. So then from that how is your 'brand' of christianity more correct than say Catholosicm, or any of the other factions of christianity? As long as their motives are pure right? Before I was sure you said that the bible was literal! I definately don't think it is. I think there are messages behind the stories, which is what the bible is supposed to teach. Jerry showed a bible quote that said the bible isn't up for interpretation. So I guess does that leave it up to every individual to decide for themselves? Or is there a deffinitive answer?
Certainly the Bible can be interpretated differently and obviously it has been mis-interpretated by many. But in the end, it will communicate what God intended it to communicate.
I also think its arrogant to claim your interpretation of the bible to be better than everyone else's. I think most of the time interpretations are different, but pretty much the same, and then of course, there are the huge misinterpretations.
Also, going back a way, your posted the quote that the stars and the sun and moon were in the firmament. So then where is all of that water and how come we have never seen it? It should be detectable shouldn't it? And it said water, not water vapor, or ice. If we are to take that literally (and we are going to assume it is literal because it is unlikely the water below the firmament is liquid water, and the water above is in some different form). I would like to know where all that water is. I really think a much more plausible explanation is that the water below is the oceans, and the water above is their assumption that a blue sky that sometimes rain is an ocean above. However wrong it may be, does it not seem plausible that people would think that 4 thousand years ago?
Well I'm certainly not going back to check out the quotes, your one example though is clear proof that any single line of scripture, standing alone, is suspect. As you point out, that gives it no context. Even in your example, you had to actually explain the context, since otherwise the period of years referenced is meaningless.
This is one reason I am not fond of people who quote short snippets of scripture to make a point, unless you are well versed in the scripture, or as you say, go back and research it, you don't know the context, so the meaning may "appear" clear, but in fact may mean something else entirely.
Arthur
Well I'm certainly not going back to check out the quotes, your one example though is clear proof that any single line of scripture, standing alone, is suspect. As you point out, that gives it no context. Even in your example, you had to actually explain the context, since otherwise the period of years referenced is meaningless.
This is one reason I am not fond of people who quote short snippets of scripture to make a point, unless you are well versed in the scripture, or as you say, go back and research it, you don't know the context, so the meaning may "appear" clear, but in fact may mean something else entirely.
Arthur
Arthur: It's rightly been said that:
"A text, out of context, is a pretext."
The simple solution to this problem would be to prayerfully read the entire Bible from cover to cover to get the "full picture", so to speak. And, by the way, the verse I posted would need no explanation to anyone who had genuinely done what I just suggested. There are several places throughout the scriptures that would clearly put that verse in its proper context. One last thing, for now, at least...
You recently referred to me as a "gunslinger"...
Regardless of what you or anyone else might erroneously think, I'm not out to harm anyone, rather to lead them to the Saviour, nor do I have any "notches in my gunbelt", so to speak. Just thought I'd clear that up. Have a good day.
Tom,
Knowing full well that I contribute to a source of continued amusement for my opponents, and since you wish to make this a public debate, I must ask: What purpose does it serve to disagree with a fellow Christian on the point of whether our Lord has a plan to make us whole, and offers us a future and a hope? And whether a human being, created in the image of God, is a child of God?
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
Here, he was actually speaking to the Galations, a group of individuals - so by your own definition your verse would not then apply to anyone else, correcto?:
Galations 3:1:
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
When I referred to giving respect to unbelievers because they are children of God - I don't believe I quoted the Bible to back that statement up. It appears that you are technically correct Tom, when you say that only believers are children of God.
Nonetheless, we were all created in the image of God, and since even evolutionists were created in His image, they deserve my respect - which was the point I tried to make when I said we were all children of God.
So there is now no mistake - I will quote the entire chapter from the King James Version of the Bible that Tom uses - with a bold emphasis on points that I wish to make:
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
SoLoved
Taken out of context, but meant sincerely:
2 Tim 4:22The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
Tom,
Knowing full well that I contribute to a source of continued amusement for my opponents, and since you wish to make this a public debate, I must ask: What purpose does it serve to disagree with a fellow Christian on the point of whether our Lord has a plan to make us whole, and offers us a future and a hope? And whether a human being, created in the image of God, is a child of God?
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
Here, he was actually speaking to the Galations, a group of individuals - so by your own definition your verse would not then apply to anyone else, correcto?:
Galations 3:1:
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
When I referred to giving respect to unbelievers because they are children of God - I don't believe I quoted the Bible to back that statement up. It appears that you are technically correct Tom, when you say that only believers are children of God.
Nonetheless, we were all created in the image of God, and since even evolutionists were created in His image, they deserve my respect - which was the point I tried to make when I said we were all children of God.
So there is now no mistake - I will quote the entire chapter from the King James Version of the Bible that Tom uses - with a bold emphasis on points that I wish to make:
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
SoLoved
Taken out of context, but meant sincerely:
2 Tim 4:22The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
SoLoved: First of all, when you choose to make erroneous statements in a "public" forum, then you should expect "public" debate. I assume that you asked this question partly because you emailed me "privately" to iron out our differences, so to speak. In spite of our "private" emails, you have continued to make erroneous "public" statements regarding God and His Word, hence I have responded to your "public" statements "publicly". Your statements have had an adverse effect on some of those who have read them(I'm basing this on their responses to some of the things that you have written) and I answered "publicly" for their sakes, as well as yours. Hope that clears that up. In addition, since we're quoting Galatians:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came with James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all..."
(Galatians 2:11-14)
You can finish reading where I left off to get the whole story. The point being that when someone's sin affects others, it can be addressed "publicly" in front of all of those who might have been affected by it. I trust you get the point.
I'm stunned(sad to say, not really, after reading some of your previous posts) that you fail to see the significance of whether or not someone is truly a child of God? If we're all children of God, as you have previously claimed, then why the need to be "born again"? Answer that for me, if you will. Your erroneous statement undermines the whole purpose of the gospel which is to bring "children of the devil" unto a place of repentance from sins and faith in the sacrificial, atoning death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ so that they can experience the "new birth". "Children of God" don't need to be "born again"..."children of the devil" do. If you don't at least understand this, then you'd better go back to square one as far as the gospel is concerned.
As far as your "correcto" statement is concerned, I can answer you in one word:
"FALSO!"
There are a multitude of other places in the Bible that clearly explain this same Biblical truth to others besides the Galatians. Paul himself clearly stated that there is "one faith"(Ephesians 4:5)...are you suggesting that there are "different faiths" for "different believers"? Well, are you?
Regarding your sarcastic remarks about the King James Version of the Bible...
I would suggest to you that the NIV(New International Version), for example, has about 64,000 less words in it than the KJV. Where did all of these words go? Why were they removed? What doctrines have been deliberately undermined as a result of these omissions? You might want to study up on these points a little bit before making silly, sarcastic statements about things that you obviously don't know about.
And lastly, what were we supposed to make of your quote from II Timothy??? Were we, or should I say, was I, supposed to understand this to mean that "I love myself" and "deny the power of the gospel", whereas you are being "falsely accused", being "despised because you're good" and are "suffering persecution due to your godliness in Christ Jesus"??? If that's the case, then all I can say is: "WHAT A JOKE!" If you're going to quote from II Timothy, then I would suggest that you go back one chapter:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."(II Timothy 2:15)
You have repeatedly misused God's Word within this vast forum and you ought to be ASHAMED...apparently you're not. Have you no fear of the Lord? As I said, I would strongly suggest that you take a sabbatical from preaching, until you know what you are talking about. I've refrained from commenting on many of your other "misquotes" until now...if need be, I'll dig some of them up, for your own good(should you repent) and the good of those who might be misled by some of your ill-advised words.
P.S. Whether or not you're truly a "fellow Christian" yet remains to be seen. The ball is in your court.
Well, I for one will no longer participate in a debate that is closed-minded.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2 Tim 2:16 KJV
I have been told by both the evolutionists and the 'Christians' now that I have NOT spoken that which they wish to hear.
So...I shall simply say.......
Au Revoir pour maintenant,
SoLoved
Bιnιdictions de Dieu sur vous
Rev 22:12-13, 20 KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
EVOLUTION:
Well, I for one will no longer participate in a debate that is closed-minded.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2 Tim 2:16 KJV
I have been told by both the evolutionists and the 'Christians' now that I have NOT spoken that which they wish to hear.
So...I shall simply say.......
Au Revoir pour maintenant,
SoLoved
Bιnιdictions de Dieu sur vous
Rev 22:12-13, 20 KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
EVOLUTION:
SoLoved: NO...You've been told by both evolutionists and Christians that you've mishandled the Word of God. The close-mindedness is on your part.
QUOTE
So there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Genesis is a parable or symbolism?
I kind of answered this in the Making the Case for the Bible thread.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
So there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Genesis is a parable or symbolism? |
I kind of answered this in the Making the Case for the Bible thread.
It would seem to me, not being a biblical scholar (though I play one on TV), is that
Could you please elaborate on this? Are you on TV?
QUOTE
Consider, that it could be possible, like the Theologian that RC went to see, that one can lead both a spiritual and scientific life and find they do not conflict.
Could you please elaborate on RC? Is RC Reality Check or what - and what type of or which theologian? Or was it you?
I agree that spirituality and science do not need to be in conflict.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Consider, that it could be possible, like the Theologian that RC went to see, that one can lead both a spiritual and scientific life and find they do not conflict. |
Could you please elaborate on RC? Is RC Reality Check or what - and what type of or which theologian? Or was it you?
I agree that spirituality and science do not need to be in conflict.
Solved, you made what I thought was an interesting tie in to Adam/Eve and the recent discovery of the genetic change that was related to brain development, in that biblically and scientifically they appear to be roughly on the same time line.
Perhaps a good place to find common ground. Tell me more about what you like about this - and what does evolution have to say about it?
QUOTE
He wasn't really in a hurry was he?
Probably not, but sometimes I wish He would be. But I'm glad it's in His hands, and not mine. And I bet you are too.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| He wasn't really in a hurry was he? |
Probably not, but sometimes I wish He would be. But I'm glad it's in His hands, and not mine. And I bet you are too.
Consider, taking some college level classes that deal with Geology and Biology
Two points.....surely you don't think that all Christians know nothing about Geology and Biology?.....and just for the record, I do not like Biology. Biology 101 was about evolution, and I just hated it. I wrote my papers from a creationist viewpoint and discredited everything in my Biology book that related to evolution. I Aced the class - thankfully, I had a great instructor who repected my beliefs. This is an exception to the rule, from what I hear in the media.
Regards,
SoLoved
QUOTE (soloved+)
Two points.....surely you don't think that all Christians know nothing about Geology and Biology?.....and just for the record, I do not like Biology. Biology 101 was about evolution, and I just hated it. I wrote my papers from a creationist viewpoint and discredited everything in my Biology book that related to evolution. I Aced the class - thankfully, I had a great instructor who repected my beliefs. This is an exception to the rule, from what I hear in the media.
No, I based it on what you have been posting.
You do not know much about Biology or Geology, that's clear from your posts (such as your dismissal of the Cliffs of Dover as being potentially caused by tectonic movement ).
Biology 101 doesn't count, that's such a general level course and it is designed for people who need to get Biology "checked off".
I'm talking some ADVANCED Biology. And for the love of God, DON'T start out with a class on Evolution. I'd suggest Marine Biology if you can swing it. Life began in the sea, so its a good place to start learning about the diversity of life.
Again, many colleges and universities let you survey classes, you don't take the tests usually, as you aren't there for a grade.
If I were the instructor I would grade you on KNOWING what was in the Biology Text. If you demonstrated that knowledge by your arguments AGAINST what was in the text, i.e Evolution claims that species evolved through Natural selection but Natural Selection can't account for Macro Evolution (not true, but used as an example) I wouldn't hold that against you.
Arthur
No, I based it on what you have been posting.
You do not know much about Biology or Geology, that's clear from your posts (such as your dismissal of the Cliffs of Dover as being potentially caused by tectonic movement
).Biology 101 doesn't count, that's such a general level course and it is designed for people who need to get Biology "checked off".
I'm talking some ADVANCED Biology. And for the love of God, DON'T start out with a class on Evolution. I'd suggest Marine Biology if you can swing it. Life began in the sea, so its a good place to start learning about the diversity of life.
Again, many colleges and universities let you survey classes, you don't take the tests usually, as you aren't there for a grade.
If I were the instructor I would grade you on KNOWING what was in the Biology Text. If you demonstrated that knowledge by your arguments AGAINST what was in the text, i.e Evolution claims that species evolved through Natural selection but Natural Selection can't account for Macro Evolution (not true, but used as an example) I wouldn't hold that against you.
Arthur
QUOTE
This is certainly open to interpretation. I am sure our motives are pure, and that we both share the same goals - which is to bring all to salvation in Christ.
The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal.
The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic.
The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself.
I believe the Duke is simply trying to say that the Bible is not open to interpretation in the sense that you cannot make it say what YOU want it to say. It says what God wants it to say. We, as humans, must do our best to understand what God is trying to say.
So as long as someone's motivations are pure (bring all to salvation in Christ) its ok to interpret things a bit differently. You said humans try to do their best to understand what god is trying to say. So then from that how is your 'brand' of christianity more correct than say Catholosicm, or any of the other factions of christianity? As long as their motives are pure right? Before I was sure you said that the bible was literal! I definately don't think it is. I think there are messages behind the stories, which is what the bible is supposed to teach. Jerry showed a bible quote that said the bible isn't up for interpretation. So I guess does that leave it up to every individual to decide for themselves? Or is there a deffinitive answer?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
This is certainly open to interpretation. I am sure our motives are pure, and that we both share the same goals - which is to bring all to salvation in Christ. The Bible is not entirely literal - but meaning behind interpretation is literal. The Bible uses various forms of prose - including literal, poetic, parables, and symbolic. The Bible is open to interpretation - but not one word/verse at a time. Interpretation must be within the context of the sentence, then the paragraph, then the chapter, then the specific book within the The Bible, and finally the entire Bible itself. I believe the Duke is simply trying to say that the Bible is not open to interpretation in the sense that you cannot make it say what YOU want it to say. It says what God wants it to say. We, as humans, must do our best to understand what God is trying to say. |
So as long as someone's motivations are pure (bring all to salvation in Christ) its ok to interpret things a bit differently. You said humans try to do their best to understand what god is trying to say. So then from that how is your 'brand' of christianity more correct than say Catholosicm, or any of the other factions of christianity? As long as their motives are pure right? Before I was sure you said that the bible was literal! I definately don't think it is. I think there are messages behind the stories, which is what the bible is supposed to teach. Jerry showed a bible quote that said the bible isn't up for interpretation. So I guess does that leave it up to every individual to decide for themselves? Or is there a deffinitive answer?
Certainly the Bible can be interpretated differently and obviously it has been mis-interpretated by many. But in the end, it will communicate what God intended it to communicate.
I also think its arrogant to claim your interpretation of the bible to be better than everyone else's. I think most of the time interpretations are different, but pretty much the same, and then of course, there are the huge misinterpretations.
Also, going back a way, your posted the quote that the stars and the sun and moon were in the firmament. So then where is all of that water and how come we have never seen it? It should be detectable shouldn't it? And it said water, not water vapor, or ice. If we are to take that literally (and we are going to assume it is literal because it is unlikely the water below the firmament is liquid water, and the water above is in some different form). I would like to know where all that water is. I really think a much more plausible explanation is that the water below is the oceans, and the water above is their assumption that a blue sky that sometimes rain is an ocean above. However wrong it may be, does it not seem plausible that people would think that 4 thousand years ago?
Steveo,
You are approaching the deep edge, and are coming very close to going over it.
Read the Bible for yourself - start with the New Testament. Then the Old Testament. The New completely synchronizes with the Old. As you go about your business - test everything you learn against the Bible. God will communicate to you what He wants to communicate - that I have complete faith in.
You have the Bible saying things it does not say. Seek to understand it instead of trying to disprove it. Although people have approached the Bible with the intent to disprove it - and have actually been converted, it is not a path I recommend. Some of us are more stubborn than others - and your own stubborness may prevent you from hearing or learning anything.
I don't necessarily believe that established religions have all the answers. But I do believe that an earnest search for God will lead you to Him.
I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing me of being arrogant. What I said was "Certainly the Bible can be interpretated differently and obviously it has been mis-interpretated by many. But in the end, it will communicate what God intended it to communicate."
This statement is factual. Don't you agree that the Bible has been mis-interpreted?
You can argue that my interpretation is a mis-interpretation and you would probably be right some of the time. But in the end, the will of God will prevail, and His word will communicate what He intended it to communicate.
When you hear a preacher preaching fire and brimstone - test what he says against what the Bible says, and discover for yourself whether it is true.
There are movements today that say there is no eternal damnation because God will save everyone. You should search this out and discover it for yourself. You can start here if you want to see what that's all about: http://www.bible-truths.com and http://www.bibletime.com/home/appendix/map/index.html . I don't necessarily agree with everything in these sites - but they are interesting. This site has several interpretations of the Bible that you can search through - all free and all online: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Although I am firm in my faith - I can certainly be open to a more revealing interpretation. You might even say that God reveals scripture over the ages as it suits His purpose.
There are those who would say that I shouldn't post these types of websites here - but my motives are pure - they're not my sites, I don't know these people, I'm not selling anything and I stand to gain nothing.
It can all be very confusing. But what you must not do is give up.
God is
::: P :::» «::: E :::» «::: R :::» «::: F :::» «::: E :::» «::: C :::» «::: T:::
and He created
Έ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί° Y O U Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ
and He says:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
SoLoved
You are approaching the deep edge, and are coming very close to going over it.
Read the Bible for yourself - start with the New Testament. Then the Old Testament. The New completely synchronizes with the Old. As you go about your business - test everything you learn against the Bible. God will communicate to you what He wants to communicate - that I have complete faith in.
You have the Bible saying things it does not say. Seek to understand it instead of trying to disprove it. Although people have approached the Bible with the intent to disprove it - and have actually been converted, it is not a path I recommend. Some of us are more stubborn than others - and your own stubborness may prevent you from hearing or learning anything.
I don't necessarily believe that established religions have all the answers. But I do believe that an earnest search for God will lead you to Him.
QUOTE
QUOTE
I also think its arrogant to claim your interpretation of the bible to be better than everyone else's. I think most of the time interpretations are different, but pretty much the same, and then of course, there are the huge misinterpretations.
I also think its arrogant to claim your interpretation of the bible to be better than everyone else's. I think most of the time interpretations are different, but pretty much the same, and then of course, there are the huge misinterpretations.
I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing me of being arrogant. What I said was "Certainly the Bible can be interpretated differently and obviously it has been mis-interpretated by many. But in the end, it will communicate what God intended it to communicate."
This statement is factual. Don't you agree that the Bible has been mis-interpreted?
You can argue that my interpretation is a mis-interpretation and you would probably be right some of the time. But in the end, the will of God will prevail, and His word will communicate what He intended it to communicate.
When you hear a preacher preaching fire and brimstone - test what he says against what the Bible says, and discover for yourself whether it is true.
There are movements today that say there is no eternal damnation because God will save everyone. You should search this out and discover it for yourself. You can start here if you want to see what that's all about: http://www.bible-truths.com and http://www.bibletime.com/home/appendix/map/index.html . I don't necessarily agree with everything in these sites - but they are interesting. This site has several interpretations of the Bible that you can search through - all free and all online: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Although I am firm in my faith - I can certainly be open to a more revealing interpretation. You might even say that God reveals scripture over the ages as it suits His purpose.
There are those who would say that I shouldn't post these types of websites here - but my motives are pure - they're not my sites, I don't know these people, I'm not selling anything and I stand to gain nothing.
It can all be very confusing. But what you must not do is give up.
God is
::: P :::» «::: E :::» «::: R :::» «::: F :::» «::: E :::» «::: C :::» «::: T:::
and He created
Έ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί° Y O U Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ
and He says:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
SoLoved
Islam has joined the Intelligent Design camp. Perhaps this is God's way of uniting us all. I, for one, welcome their efforts. An area of common ground, among many. They have produced a video on Intelligent Design called The Miracle of Design in the Cell, that uses a variety of techniques, including computer graphics, science of the eye, and nature visuals.
Take a look - it is about 37 minutes long.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=15...elligent+design
SoLoved
Take a look - it is about 37 minutes long.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=15...elligent+design
SoLovedQUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 27 2005, 04:51 PM)
You can argue that my interpretation is a mis-interpretation and you would probably be right some of the time. But in the end, the will of God will prevail, and His word will communicate what He intended it to communicate.
When you hear a preacher preaching fire and brimstone - test what he says against what the Bible says, and discover for yourself whether it is true.
There are movements today that say there is no eternal damnation because God will save everyone. You should search this out and discover it for yourself. You can start here if you want to see what that's all about: http://www.bible-truths.com and http://www.bibletime.com/home/appendix/map/index.html . I don't necessarily agree with everything in these sites - but they are interesting. This site has several interpretations of the Bible that you can search through - all free and all online: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Although I am firm in my faith - I can certainly be open to a more revealing interpretation. You might even say that God reveals scripture over the ages as it suits His purpose.
There are those who would say that I shouldn't post these types of websites here - but my motives are pure - they're not my sites, I don't know these people, I'm not selling anything and I stand to gain nothing.
It can all be very confusing. But what you must not do is give up.
God is
::: P :::» «::: E :::» «::: R :::» «::: F :::» «::: E :::» «::: C :::» «::: T:::
and He created
Έ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί° Y O U Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ
and He says:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
SoLoved
SoLoved: And this would be one of those times. Here's the same quote, in context:
"For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
(Jeremiah 29:10-11)
God was speaking to the Jews who were about to go into Babylonian captivity for 70 years...He wasn't speaking to you, Steveo.
I hate to say this, I really do, but I must...
SoLoved, I would suggest you take a pretty long sabbatical from quoting scriptures. I've watched you repeatedly do them such an injustice...
I'll keep you in my prayers.
When you hear a preacher preaching fire and brimstone - test what he says against what the Bible says, and discover for yourself whether it is true.
There are movements today that say there is no eternal damnation because God will save everyone. You should search this out and discover it for yourself. You can start here if you want to see what that's all about: http://www.bible-truths.com and http://www.bibletime.com/home/appendix/map/index.html . I don't necessarily agree with everything in these sites - but they are interesting. This site has several interpretations of the Bible that you can search through - all free and all online: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Although I am firm in my faith - I can certainly be open to a more revealing interpretation. You might even say that God reveals scripture over the ages as it suits His purpose.
There are those who would say that I shouldn't post these types of websites here - but my motives are pure - they're not my sites, I don't know these people, I'm not selling anything and I stand to gain nothing.
It can all be very confusing. But what you must not do is give up.
God is
::: P :::» «::: E :::» «::: R :::» «::: F :::» «::: E :::» «::: C :::» «::: T:::
and He created
Έ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί° Y O U Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ,ΈΈ,ψ€Ί°`°Ί€ψ
and He says:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
SoLovedSoLoved: And this would be one of those times. Here's the same quote, in context:
"For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
(Jeremiah 29:10-11)
God was speaking to the Jews who were about to go into Babylonian captivity for 70 years...He wasn't speaking to you, Steveo.
I hate to say this, I really do, but I must...
SoLoved, I would suggest you take a pretty long sabbatical from quoting scriptures. I've watched you repeatedly do them such an injustice...
I'll keep you in my prayers.
Well, on the other hand.....when does He speak to us - if not through His word?
SoLoved
SoLoved
OK, so which of these two is right?
SoLoved posts this:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
Looks good huh?
Even sorta pertains to the subject he was writing about.
Then, our other "gunslinger", doesn't bat an eye after Soloved's wild shot and takes dead aim with:
"For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
(Jeremiah 29:10-11)
What's this, NewGuy throws in the previous line and the quote that SoLoved used is now seen to be totally out of context.
What's going on?
Have we been deceived?
Has SoLoved been twisting scripture to fit?
Should we go back and see if other snippets of scripture have been likewise misconstrued when taken out of context like Jer 11 was?
Is this the Scriptural version of "situational ethics"?
Well, maybe, but then consider the two parts that overlap.
SoLoved:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
New Guy
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end
WHOA DOGGIES.
These MAY be different versions of the Bible, but they are not even saying the same thing.
One God "has plans for you", the other God has "thoughts toward you"
One God has plans of "wholeness" and a promise of a "future", the other God, is thinking peaceful things about you.
So, it comes to mind, I wonder what the ORIGINAL said?
Could of been:
For I thought up a plan for you, snickered the Lord, plans for an evil and unexpected end. Resistance is futile.
Who knows?
What a waste of time to discuss if the bible should be interpreted LITERALLY, when two "true believers" can't even agree on what the LITERAL text IS.
Arthur
SoLoved posts this:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
Looks good huh?
Even sorta pertains to the subject he was writing about.
Then, our other "gunslinger", doesn't bat an eye after Soloved's wild shot and takes dead aim with:
"For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
(Jeremiah 29:10-11)
What's this, NewGuy throws in the previous line and the quote that SoLoved used is now seen to be totally out of context.
What's going on?
Have we been deceived?
Has SoLoved been twisting scripture to fit?
Should we go back and see if other snippets of scripture have been likewise misconstrued when taken out of context like Jer 11 was?
Is this the Scriptural version of "situational ethics"?
Well, maybe, but then consider the two parts that overlap.
SoLoved:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
New Guy
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end
WHOA DOGGIES.
These MAY be different versions of the Bible, but they are not even saying the same thing.
One God "has plans for you", the other God has "thoughts toward you"
One God has plans of "wholeness" and a promise of a "future", the other God, is thinking peaceful things about you.
So, it comes to mind, I wonder what the ORIGINAL said?
Could of been:
For I thought up a plan for you, snickered the Lord, plans for an evil and unexpected end. Resistance is futile.
Who knows?
What a waste of time to discuss if the bible should be interpreted LITERALLY, when two "true believers" can't even agree on what the LITERAL text IS.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 27 2005, 11:28 PM)
OK, so which of these two is right?
SoLoved posts this:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
Looks good huh?
Even sorta pertains to the subject he was writing about.
Then, our other "gunslinger", doesn't bat an eye after Soloved's wild shot and takes dead aim with:
"For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
(Jeremiah 29:10-11)
What's this, NewGuy throws in the previous line and the quote that SoLoved used is now seen to be totally out of context.
What's going on?
Have we been deceived?
Has SoLoved been twisting scripture to fit?
Should we go back and see if other snippets of scripture have been likewise misconstrued when taken out of context like Jer 11 was?
Is this the Scriptural version of "situational ethics"?
Well, maybe, but then consider the two parts that overlap.
SoLoved:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
New Guy
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end
WHOA DOGGIES.
These MAY be different versions of the Bible, but they are not even saying the same thing.
One God "has plans for you", the other God has "thoughts toward you"
One God has plans of "wholeness" and a promise of a "future", the other God, is thinking peaceful things about you.
So, it comes to mind, I wonder what the ORIGINAL said?
Could of been:
For I thought up a plan for you, snickered the Lord, plans for an evil and unexpected end. Resistance is futile.
Who knows?
What a waste of time to discuss if the bible should be interpreted LITERALLY, when two "true believers" can't even agree on what the LITERAL text IS.
Arthur
Arthur: Nothing confusing about my posts. I've stated repeatedly throughout this forum that the new "versions" are really "perversions". There are at least a couple of reasons for this.
1. Many of the new "versions"("perversions") use a deliberately corrupted text to translate from. I'll not elaborate on this at the moment, but will later, if need be. Suffice it to say for now, that SoLoved continually quotes from these "perverted" texts.
2. Since these new "versions"("perversions") keep coming out, they're running out of synonyms to use in their "translations". For example, what reads as "fat" in the King James Version reads "verdant" in one of these "perversions". Due to certain copyright laws and a desire to make money by some corrupt people, the message of the Bible is being deliberately tampered with by some, many times giving different meanings than is contained within the true underlying manuscripts.
Anyway, I doubt you were sincere in your question about things possibly being taken out of context, but, nonetheless, I would suggest you check all of the scriptures being quoted(often misquoted) to see if they are being given in context.
SoLoved: To answer your question:
Of course God speaks to us through His Word. However, you are not to take something that was spoken directly to an individual or group of individuals and just randomly apply it to yourself or others. For example, when God said that David was to be anointed king of Israel...should I just apply this to myself and take over the government in Jerusalem? I hope you would answer: NO! You've repeatedly misquoted things from scripture...I've let many of them go unanswered due to a lack of time and not to stir the people up. Well, here goes...might as well stir the pot...
You recently posted to a bunch of self-professed non-believers that they were "children of God". Where did you get that from? Certainly NOT the scriptures.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
I won't elaborate any more for now, but I hope you'll genuinely consider my advice from my previous post...for your own sake, and for the sake of others.
SoLoved posts this:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
Looks good huh?
Even sorta pertains to the subject he was writing about.
Then, our other "gunslinger", doesn't bat an eye after Soloved's wild shot and takes dead aim with:
"For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
(Jeremiah 29:10-11)
What's this, NewGuy throws in the previous line and the quote that SoLoved used is now seen to be totally out of context.
What's going on?
Have we been deceived?
Has SoLoved been twisting scripture to fit?
Should we go back and see if other snippets of scripture have been likewise misconstrued when taken out of context like Jer 11 was?
Is this the Scriptural version of "situational ethics"?
Well, maybe, but then consider the two parts that overlap.
SoLoved:
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
New Guy
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end
WHOA DOGGIES.
These MAY be different versions of the Bible, but they are not even saying the same thing.
One God "has plans for you", the other God has "thoughts toward you"
One God has plans of "wholeness" and a promise of a "future", the other God, is thinking peaceful things about you.
So, it comes to mind, I wonder what the ORIGINAL said?
Could of been:
For I thought up a plan for you, snickered the Lord, plans for an evil and unexpected end. Resistance is futile.
Who knows?
What a waste of time to discuss if the bible should be interpreted LITERALLY, when two "true believers" can't even agree on what the LITERAL text IS.
Arthur
Arthur: Nothing confusing about my posts. I've stated repeatedly throughout this forum that the new "versions" are really "perversions". There are at least a couple of reasons for this.
1. Many of the new "versions"("perversions") use a deliberately corrupted text to translate from. I'll not elaborate on this at the moment, but will later, if need be. Suffice it to say for now, that SoLoved continually quotes from these "perverted" texts.
2. Since these new "versions"("perversions") keep coming out, they're running out of synonyms to use in their "translations". For example, what reads as "fat" in the King James Version reads "verdant" in one of these "perversions". Due to certain copyright laws and a desire to make money by some corrupt people, the message of the Bible is being deliberately tampered with by some, many times giving different meanings than is contained within the true underlying manuscripts.
Anyway, I doubt you were sincere in your question about things possibly being taken out of context, but, nonetheless, I would suggest you check all of the scriptures being quoted(often misquoted) to see if they are being given in context.
SoLoved: To answer your question:
Of course God speaks to us through His Word. However, you are not to take something that was spoken directly to an individual or group of individuals and just randomly apply it to yourself or others. For example, when God said that David was to be anointed king of Israel...should I just apply this to myself and take over the government in Jerusalem? I hope you would answer: NO! You've repeatedly misquoted things from scripture...I've let many of them go unanswered due to a lack of time and not to stir the people up. Well, here goes...might as well stir the pot...
You recently posted to a bunch of self-professed non-believers that they were "children of God". Where did you get that from? Certainly NOT the scriptures.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
I won't elaborate any more for now, but I hope you'll genuinely consider my advice from my previous post...for your own sake, and for the sake of others.
QUOTE
Arthur: Nothing confusing about my posts. I've stated repeatedly throughout this forum that the new "versions" are really "perversions". There are at least a couple of reasons for this.
1. Many of the new "versions"("perversions") use a deliberately corrupted text to translate from. I'll not elaborate on this at the moment, but will later, if need be. Suffice it to say for now, that SoLoved continually quotes from these "perverted" texts.
2. Since these new "versions"("perversions") keep coming out, they're running out of synonyms to use in their "translations". For example, what reads as "fat" in the King James Version reads "verdant" in one of these "perversions". Due to certain copyright laws and a desire to make money by some corrupt people, the message of the Bible is being deliberately tampered with by some, many times giving different meanings than is contained within the true underlying manuscripts.
Anyway, I doubt you were sincere in your question about things possibly being taken out of context, but, nonetheless, I would suggest you check all of the scriptures being quoted(often misquoted) to see if they are being given in context.
1. Many of the new "versions"("perversions") use a deliberately corrupted text to translate from. I'll not elaborate on this at the moment, but will later, if need be. Suffice it to say for now, that SoLoved continually quotes from these "perverted" texts.
2. Since these new "versions"("perversions") keep coming out, they're running out of synonyms to use in their "translations". For example, what reads as "fat" in the King James Version reads "verdant" in one of these "perversions". Due to certain copyright laws and a desire to make money by some corrupt people, the message of the Bible is being deliberately tampered with by some, many times giving different meanings than is contained within the true underlying manuscripts.
Anyway, I doubt you were sincere in your question about things possibly being taken out of context, but, nonetheless, I would suggest you check all of the scriptures being quoted(often misquoted) to see if they are being given in context.
Well I'm certainly not going back to check out the quotes, your one example though is clear proof that any single line of scripture, standing alone, is suspect. As you point out, that gives it no context. Even in your example, you had to actually explain the context, since otherwise the period of years referenced is meaningless.
This is one reason I am not fond of people who quote short snippets of scripture to make a point, unless you are well versed in the scripture, or as you say, go back and research it, you don't know the context, so the meaning may "appear" clear, but in fact may mean something else entirely.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 28 2005, 12:22 AM)
QUOTE
Arthur: Nothing confusing about my posts. I've stated repeatedly throughout this forum that the new "versions" are really "perversions". There are at least a couple of reasons for this.
1. Many of the new "versions"("perversions") use a deliberately corrupted text to translate from. I'll not elaborate on this at the moment, but will later, if need be. Suffice it to say for now, that SoLoved continually quotes from these "perverted" texts.
2. Since these new "versions"("perversions") keep coming out, they're running out of synonyms to use in their "translations". For example, what reads as "fat" in the King James Version reads "verdant" in one of these "perversions". Due to certain copyright laws and a desire to make money by some corrupt people, the message of the Bible is being deliberately tampered with by some, many times giving different meanings than is contained within the true underlying manuscripts.
Anyway, I doubt you were sincere in your question about things possibly being taken out of context, but, nonetheless, I would suggest you check all of the scriptures being quoted(often misquoted) to see if they are being given in context.
1. Many of the new "versions"("perversions") use a deliberately corrupted text to translate from. I'll not elaborate on this at the moment, but will later, if need be. Suffice it to say for now, that SoLoved continually quotes from these "perverted" texts.
2. Since these new "versions"("perversions") keep coming out, they're running out of synonyms to use in their "translations". For example, what reads as "fat" in the King James Version reads "verdant" in one of these "perversions". Due to certain copyright laws and a desire to make money by some corrupt people, the message of the Bible is being deliberately tampered with by some, many times giving different meanings than is contained within the true underlying manuscripts.
Anyway, I doubt you were sincere in your question about things possibly being taken out of context, but, nonetheless, I would suggest you check all of the scriptures being quoted(often misquoted) to see if they are being given in context.
Well I'm certainly not going back to check out the quotes, your one example though is clear proof that any single line of scripture, standing alone, is suspect. As you point out, that gives it no context. Even in your example, you had to actually explain the context, since otherwise the period of years referenced is meaningless.
This is one reason I am not fond of people who quote short snippets of scripture to make a point, unless you are well versed in the scripture, or as you say, go back and research it, you don't know the context, so the meaning may "appear" clear, but in fact may mean something else entirely.
Arthur
Arthur: It's rightly been said that:
"A text, out of context, is a pretext."
The simple solution to this problem would be to prayerfully read the entire Bible from cover to cover to get the "full picture", so to speak. And, by the way, the verse I posted would need no explanation to anyone who had genuinely done what I just suggested. There are several places throughout the scriptures that would clearly put that verse in its proper context. One last thing, for now, at least...
You recently referred to me as a "gunslinger"...
Regardless of what you or anyone else might erroneously think, I'm not out to harm anyone, rather to lead them to the Saviour, nor do I have any "notches in my gunbelt", so to speak. Just thought I'd clear that up. Have a good day.
QUOTE
SoLoved: To answer your question:
Of course God speaks to us through His Word. However, you are not to take something that was spoken directly to an individual or group of individuals and just randomly apply it to yourself or others. For example, when God said that David was to be anointed king of Israel...should I just apply this to myself and take over the government in Jerusalem? I hope you would answer: NO! You've repeatedly misquoted things from scripture...I've let many of them go unanswered due to a lack of time and not to stir the people up. Well, here goes...might as well stir the pot...
You recently posted to a bunch of self-professed non-believers that they were "children of God". Where did you get that from? Certainly NOT the scriptures.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
I won't elaborate any more for now, but I hope you'll genuinely consider my advice from my previous post...for your own sake, and for the sake of others.
Of course God speaks to us through His Word. However, you are not to take something that was spoken directly to an individual or group of individuals and just randomly apply it to yourself or others. For example, when God said that David was to be anointed king of Israel...should I just apply this to myself and take over the government in Jerusalem? I hope you would answer: NO! You've repeatedly misquoted things from scripture...I've let many of them go unanswered due to a lack of time and not to stir the people up. Well, here goes...might as well stir the pot...
You recently posted to a bunch of self-professed non-believers that they were "children of God". Where did you get that from? Certainly NOT the scriptures.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
I won't elaborate any more for now, but I hope you'll genuinely consider my advice from my previous post...for your own sake, and for the sake of others.
Tom,
Knowing full well that I contribute to a source of continued amusement for my opponents, and since you wish to make this a public debate, I must ask: What purpose does it serve to disagree with a fellow Christian on the point of whether our Lord has a plan to make us whole, and offers us a future and a hope? And whether a human being, created in the image of God, is a child of God?
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
Here, he was actually speaking to the Galations, a group of individuals - so by your own definition your verse would not then apply to anyone else, correcto?:
Galations 3:1:
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
When I referred to giving respect to unbelievers because they are children of God - I don't believe I quoted the Bible to back that statement up. It appears that you are technically correct Tom, when you say that only believers are children of God.
Nonetheless, we were all created in the image of God, and since even evolutionists were created in His image, they deserve my respect - which was the point I tried to make when I said we were all children of God.
So there is now no mistake - I will quote the entire chapter from the King James Version of the Bible that Tom uses - with a bold emphasis on points that I wish to make:
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
SoLovedTaken out of context, but meant sincerely:
2 Tim 4:22The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
I suspect this topic has been covered...but there is a lot to sort through here.
Without bringing the supernatural into it (remember ID is NOT a religious concept) does ID cover the origins of life?
Without bringing the supernatural into it (remember ID is NOT a religious concept) does ID cover the origins of life?
QUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 28 2005, 07:49 PM)
QUOTE
SoLoved: To answer your question:
Of course God speaks to us through His Word. However, you are not to take something that was spoken directly to an individual or group of individuals and just randomly apply it to yourself or others. For example, when God said that David was to be anointed king of Israel...should I just apply this to myself and take over the government in Jerusalem? I hope you would answer: NO! You've repeatedly misquoted things from scripture...I've let many of them go unanswered due to a lack of time and not to stir the people up. Well, here goes...might as well stir the pot...
You recently posted to a bunch of self-professed non-believers that they were "children of God". Where did you get that from? Certainly NOT the scriptures.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
I won't elaborate any more for now, but I hope you'll genuinely consider my advice from my previous post...for your own sake, and for the sake of others.
Of course God speaks to us through His Word. However, you are not to take something that was spoken directly to an individual or group of individuals and just randomly apply it to yourself or others. For example, when God said that David was to be anointed king of Israel...should I just apply this to myself and take over the government in Jerusalem? I hope you would answer: NO! You've repeatedly misquoted things from scripture...I've let many of them go unanswered due to a lack of time and not to stir the people up. Well, here goes...might as well stir the pot...
You recently posted to a bunch of self-professed non-believers that they were "children of God". Where did you get that from? Certainly NOT the scriptures.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
I won't elaborate any more for now, but I hope you'll genuinely consider my advice from my previous post...for your own sake, and for the sake of others.
Tom,
Knowing full well that I contribute to a source of continued amusement for my opponents, and since you wish to make this a public debate, I must ask: What purpose does it serve to disagree with a fellow Christian on the point of whether our Lord has a plan to make us whole, and offers us a future and a hope? And whether a human being, created in the image of God, is a child of God?
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26)
Here, he was actually speaking to the Galations, a group of individuals - so by your own definition your verse would not then apply to anyone else, correcto?:
Galations 3:1:
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
When I referred to giving respect to unbelievers because they are children of God - I don't believe I quoted the Bible to back that statement up. It appears that you are technically correct Tom, when you say that only believers are children of God.
Nonetheless, we were all created in the image of God, and since even evolutionists were created in His image, they deserve my respect - which was the point I tried to make when I said we were all children of God.
So there is now no mistake - I will quote the entire chapter from the King James Version of the Bible that Tom uses - with a bold emphasis on points that I wish to make:
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
SoLovedTaken out of context, but meant sincerely:
2 Tim 4:22The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
SoLoved: First of all, when you choose to make erroneous statements in a "public" forum, then you should expect "public" debate. I assume that you asked this question partly because you emailed me "privately" to iron out our differences, so to speak. In spite of our "private" emails, you have continued to make erroneous "public" statements regarding God and His Word, hence I have responded to your "public" statements "publicly". Your statements have had an adverse effect on some of those who have read them(I'm basing this on their responses to some of the things that you have written) and I answered "publicly" for their sakes, as well as yours. Hope that clears that up. In addition, since we're quoting Galatians:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came with James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all..."
(Galatians 2:11-14)
You can finish reading where I left off to get the whole story. The point being that when someone's sin affects others, it can be addressed "publicly" in front of all of those who might have been affected by it. I trust you get the point.
I'm stunned(sad to say, not really, after reading some of your previous posts) that you fail to see the significance of whether or not someone is truly a child of God? If we're all children of God, as you have previously claimed, then why the need to be "born again"? Answer that for me, if you will. Your erroneous statement undermines the whole purpose of the gospel which is to bring "children of the devil" unto a place of repentance from sins and faith in the sacrificial, atoning death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ so that they can experience the "new birth". "Children of God" don't need to be "born again"..."children of the devil" do. If you don't at least understand this, then you'd better go back to square one as far as the gospel is concerned.
As far as your "correcto" statement is concerned, I can answer you in one word:
"FALSO!"
There are a multitude of other places in the Bible that clearly explain this same Biblical truth to others besides the Galatians. Paul himself clearly stated that there is "one faith"(Ephesians 4:5)...are you suggesting that there are "different faiths" for "different believers"? Well, are you?
Regarding your sarcastic remarks about the King James Version of the Bible...
I would suggest to you that the NIV(New International Version), for example, has about 64,000 less words in it than the KJV. Where did all of these words go? Why were they removed? What doctrines have been deliberately undermined as a result of these omissions? You might want to study up on these points a little bit before making silly, sarcastic statements about things that you obviously don't know about.
And lastly, what were we supposed to make of your quote from II Timothy??? Were we, or should I say, was I, supposed to understand this to mean that "I love myself" and "deny the power of the gospel", whereas you are being "falsely accused", being "despised because you're good" and are "suffering persecution due to your godliness in Christ Jesus"??? If that's the case, then all I can say is: "WHAT A JOKE!" If you're going to quote from II Timothy, then I would suggest that you go back one chapter:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."(II Timothy 2:15)
You have repeatedly misused God's Word within this vast forum and you ought to be ASHAMED...apparently you're not. Have you no fear of the Lord? As I said, I would strongly suggest that you take a sabbatical from preaching, until you know what you are talking about. I've refrained from commenting on many of your other "misquotes" until now...if need be, I'll dig some of them up, for your own good(should you repent) and the good of those who might be misled by some of your ill-advised words.
P.S. Whether or not you're truly a "fellow Christian" yet remains to be seen. The ball is in your court.
Well, I for one will no longer participate in a debate that is closed-minded.But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2 Tim 2:16 KJV
I have been told by both the evolutionists and the 'Christians' now that I have NOT spoken that which they wish to hear.
So...I shall simply say.......
Au Revoir pour maintenant,
SoLoved
Bιnιdictions de Dieu sur vousRev 22:12-13, 20 KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
EVOLUTION:
QUOTE (SoLoved+Oct 28 2005, 11:14 PM)
Well, I for one will no longer participate in a debate that is closed-minded.But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2 Tim 2:16 KJV
I have been told by both the evolutionists and the 'Christians' now that I have NOT spoken that which they wish to hear.
So...I shall simply say.......
Au Revoir pour maintenant,
SoLoved
Bιnιdictions de Dieu sur vousRev 22:12-13, 20 KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
EVOLUTION:
SoLoved: NO...You've been told by both evolutionists and Christians that you've mishandled the Word of God. The close-mindedness is on your part.
i didn't read the hole thing but did you ever think that god is a being that exists on a level where he/she/it can alter our laws of physics and instantly see the result for there own amusement
e.g. if gravity was a little higher, the big bang would just bang
e.g. if gravity was a little lower, the big bang would compress too fast for us to evolve
any comments on this?
e.g. if gravity was a little higher, the big bang would just bang
e.g. if gravity was a little lower, the big bang would compress too fast for us to evolve
any comments on this?
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 28 2005, 08:09 AM)
Arthur: It's rightly been said that:
"A text, out of context, is a pretext."
The simple solution to this problem would be to prayerfully read the entire Bible from cover to cover to get the "full picture", so to speak. And, by the way, the verse I posted would need no explanation to anyone who had genuinely done what I just suggested. There are several places throughout the scriptures that would clearly put that verse in its proper context. One last thing, for now, at least...
You recently referred to me as a "gunslinger"...
Regardless of what you or anyone else might erroneously think, I'm not out to harm anyone, rather to lead them to the Saviour, nor do I have any "notches in my gunbelt", so to speak. Just thought I'd clear that up. Have a good day.
I read it, some parts many times, I didn't memorize it.
A lot of it made no sense because of use of words I knew in ways I didn't understand.
It is a piss poor history book and not being an avid student of history its ramblings on about different tribes and kings and places I could not relate to interspersed with admonitions not to eat pigs and rabbits and such was confusing at best.
The new testament, was SO much better.
I'd read the old testament again, but only if you held a gun to my head.
The comment about "gunslingers" was not to imply you were out to hurt anyone.
But you do use them sort of like weapons, shooting out passages of scripture as needed to make a point.
Get a mental picture of you in the old west facing down a bad guy, he says something 'out of line" and you draw your biblegun from your holster, aim, fire and out pops one of them cartoon flags with a relevant piece of scripture on it.
Arthur
"A text, out of context, is a pretext."
The simple solution to this problem would be to prayerfully read the entire Bible from cover to cover to get the "full picture", so to speak. And, by the way, the verse I posted would need no explanation to anyone who had genuinely done what I just suggested. There are several places throughout the scriptures that would clearly put that verse in its proper context. One last thing, for now, at least...
You recently referred to me as a "gunslinger"...
Regardless of what you or anyone else might erroneously think, I'm not out to harm anyone, rather to lead them to the Saviour, nor do I have any "notches in my gunbelt", so to speak. Just thought I'd clear that up. Have a good day.
I read it, some parts many times, I didn't memorize it.
A lot of it made no sense because of use of words I knew in ways I didn't understand.
It is a piss poor history book and not being an avid student of history its ramblings on about different tribes and kings and places I could not relate to interspersed with admonitions not to eat pigs and rabbits and such was confusing at best.
The new testament, was SO much better.
I'd read the old testament again, but only if you held a gun to my head.
The comment about "gunslingers" was not to imply you were out to hurt anyone.
But you do use them sort of like weapons, shooting out passages of scripture as needed to make a point.
Get a mental picture of you in the old west facing down a bad guy, he says something 'out of line" and you draw your biblegun from your holster, aim, fire and out pops one of them cartoon flags with a relevant piece of scripture on it.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 29 2005, 07:42 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 28 2005, 08:09 AM)
Arthur: It's rightly been said that:
"A text, out of context, is a pretext."
The simple solution to this problem would be to prayerfully read the entire Bible from cover to cover to get the "full picture", so to speak. And, by the way, the verse I posted would need no explanation to anyone who had genuinely done what I just suggested. There are several places throughout the scriptures that would clearly put that verse in its proper context. One last thing, for now, at least...
You recently referred to me as a "gunslinger"...
Regardless of what you or anyone else might erroneously think, I'm not out to harm anyone, rather to lead them to the Saviour, nor do I have any "notches in my gunbelt", so to speak. Just thought I'd clear that up. Have a good day.
I read it, some parts many times, I didn't memorize it.
A lot of it made no sense because of use of words I knew in ways I didn't understand.
It is a piss poor history book and not being an avid student of history its ramblings on about different tribes and kings and places I could not relate to interspersed with admonitions not to eat pigs and rabbits and such was confusing at best.
The new testament, was SO much better.
I'd read the old testament again, but only if you held a gun to my head.
The comment about "gunslingers" was not to imply you were out to hurt anyone.
But you do use them sort of like weapons, shooting out passages of scripture as needed to make a point.
Get a mental picture of you in the old west facing down a bad guy, he says something 'out of line" and you draw your biblegun from your holster, aim, fire and out pops one of them cartoon flags with a relevant piece of scripture on it.
Arthur
Arthur: The Old Testament is not a "piss poor history book" as it has repeatedly been shown to be historically accurate by archaeological digs and the like. I'm puzzled how you could continue on to say how "the new testament, was SO much better". Much of the New Testament(practically all of it) cannot properly be understood without an understanding of the Old Testament. For example, just start with the very first verse of the New Testament.
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matthew 1:1)
Who was David? Who was Abraham? Why is Jesus referred to as their "son" or "seed"? These questions cannot properly be answered without referencing the Old Testament and this is only the first verse of the New Testament. Regarding the two Testaments, it has properly been said:
"The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed."
Please allow all of the "imaginings" in the following analogy so that I can make a point.
Imagine that you and a large group of others were standing on the sidewalk of a street about nine tenths of the way up the block and that you were all facing towards the upper corner of the block. Imagine also that I, Tom, was walking down the sidewalk of the street that ran perpendicular to your street and that I was walking towards the corner that all of you were facing and that you were all patiently waiting to see me for the very first time. Imagine, once again, that there was a very large building between us that hindered you from seeing my physical body, but that, in this area where we were all gathered, the Sun was always shining in its full strength and that it was shining directly behind my back, causing my long shadow to be cast way out in front of me where you could all plainly see it. Lastly, imagine that I was walking RREEEAAAALLLLLYYYYYY SLOW...so slow that it took me thousands of years to turn the corner so that you could all see my physical body for the very first time. What might you all learn about me from just observing my shadow for these thousands of years? Well, having observed my own shadow many times, I know of a certainty that you would all observe, at least, the following:
1. You would know that I am tall.
2. You would know that I am thin.
3. You would know that I am balding on top.
4. You would know that I wear glasses.
5. You would know that I have a beard.
Now, let's say that after you have all plainly seen my tall, thin, balding, four-eyed, bearded shadow coming towards you for thousands of years, a short, fat, curly-topped, two-eyed, clean shaven man turns the corner, jumps out in front of you all and boldly proclaims: "I'm Tom!" Would you all believe him? Would you all foolishly say in unison: "This is the Tom we've been patiently waiting for!"? I trust not. Any individual who shut their eyes and refused to observe my foreshadowing for these thousands of years might be fooled into receiving "another Tom", but you shouldn't be fooled into receiving this imposter. Doesn't this make sense? Okay, let's stop imagining. The Bible declares:
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."(Hebrews 10:1)
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."(Colossians 2:16-17)
The law or, more broadly speaking, the entire Old Testament is filled with types and shadows that were designed to help believers to identify exactly Who Jesus Christ is and isn't long before He ever physically appeared on earth at His first coming and also long before He will physically appear on earth at His second coming. The believer who shuts their eyes and fool-heartedly refuses to observe what was foreshadowed of Christ by the light of God's law for thousands of years greatly runs the risk of receiving "another Jesus"(II Corinthians 11:4), just as the individual who shut their eyes and fool-heartedly refused to observe my foreshadowing that was cast by the Sun for thousands of years in the example I gave greatly ran the risk of receiving "another Tom". Doesn't this also make sense? Sad to say, I am thoroughly convinced that vast multitudes of professing believers are already worshipping an imposter or "another Jesus" because they have refused to observe the shadow of Christ that was cast by the light of God's law for thousands of years. This is but one of many reasons that there is disagreement between those who both profess to be true believers in Jesus Christ. A very simple example of a foreshadowing of Christ can be found in all of the Old Testament sacrifices. Since the Bible declares that Jesus Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"(Revelation 13:8) or that Jesus was foreordained to sacrificially die for the sins of mankind, God then instituted all sorts of Old Testament sacrifices that foreshadowed the inevitable crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The people whose forefathers had partaken of these foreshadowing sacrifices for thousands of years should have known what John the Baptist meant when he said:
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world."(John 1:29)
Sad to say, the vast majority of them missed it. The point being this...
If you take away all of the Old Testament foreshadowings, you greatly run the risk of not properly understanding Who Jesus Christ is. For example, many of the Jews of Christ's time on earth and also many Jews presently on earth are looking for a Messiah that will only come as a conquering King. They have completely missed the fact that Messiah or Christ must first SUFFER, even though God foreshadowed this for thousands of years. This goes to show that, even with all of these foreshadowings, one can still miss Christ by simply closing their eyes to the truth. Sorry to be so long winded, but I've wanted to state some things about the importance and significance of the Old Testament for quite some time now due to certain things that others have posted regarding it throughout this vast forum. I trust I didn't bore you.
"A text, out of context, is a pretext."
The simple solution to this problem would be to prayerfully read the entire Bible from cover to cover to get the "full picture", so to speak. And, by the way, the verse I posted would need no explanation to anyone who had genuinely done what I just suggested. There are several places throughout the scriptures that would clearly put that verse in its proper context. One last thing, for now, at least...
You recently referred to me as a "gunslinger"...
Regardless of what you or anyone else might erroneously think, I'm not out to harm anyone, rather to lead them to the Saviour, nor do I have any "notches in my gunbelt", so to speak. Just thought I'd clear that up. Have a good day.
I read it, some parts many times, I didn't memorize it.
A lot of it made no sense because of use of words I knew in ways I didn't understand.
It is a piss poor history book and not being an avid student of history its ramblings on about different tribes and kings and places I could not relate to interspersed with admonitions not to eat pigs and rabbits and such was confusing at best.
The new testament, was SO much better.
I'd read the old testament again, but only if you held a gun to my head.
The comment about "gunslingers" was not to imply you were out to hurt anyone.
But you do use them sort of like weapons, shooting out passages of scripture as needed to make a point.
Get a mental picture of you in the old west facing down a bad guy, he says something 'out of line" and you draw your biblegun from your holster, aim, fire and out pops one of them cartoon flags with a relevant piece of scripture on it.
Arthur
Arthur: The Old Testament is not a "piss poor history book" as it has repeatedly been shown to be historically accurate by archaeological digs and the like. I'm puzzled how you could continue on to say how "the new testament, was SO much better". Much of the New Testament(practically all of it) cannot properly be understood without an understanding of the Old Testament. For example, just start with the very first verse of the New Testament.
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matthew 1:1)
Who was David? Who was Abraham? Why is Jesus referred to as their "son" or "seed"? These questions cannot properly be answered without referencing the Old Testament and this is only the first verse of the New Testament. Regarding the two Testaments, it has properly been said:
"The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed."
Please allow all of the "imaginings" in the following analogy so that I can make a point.
Imagine that you and a large group of others were standing on the sidewalk of a street about nine tenths of the way up the block and that you were all facing towards the upper corner of the block. Imagine also that I, Tom, was walking down the sidewalk of the street that ran perpendicular to your street and that I was walking towards the corner that all of you were facing and that you were all patiently waiting to see me for the very first time. Imagine, once again, that there was a very large building between us that hindered you from seeing my physical body, but that, in this area where we were all gathered, the Sun was always shining in its full strength and that it was shining directly behind my back, causing my long shadow to be cast way out in front of me where you could all plainly see it. Lastly, imagine that I was walking RREEEAAAALLLLLYYYYYY SLOW...so slow that it took me thousands of years to turn the corner so that you could all see my physical body for the very first time. What might you all learn about me from just observing my shadow for these thousands of years? Well, having observed my own shadow many times, I know of a certainty that you would all observe, at least, the following:
1. You would know that I am tall.
2. You would know that I am thin.
3. You would know that I am balding on top.
4. You would know that I wear glasses.
5. You would know that I have a beard.
Now, let's say that after you have all plainly seen my tall, thin, balding, four-eyed, bearded shadow coming towards you for thousands of years, a short, fat, curly-topped, two-eyed, clean shaven man turns the corner, jumps out in front of you all and boldly proclaims: "I'm Tom!" Would you all believe him? Would you all foolishly say in unison: "This is the Tom we've been patiently waiting for!"? I trust not. Any individual who shut their eyes and refused to observe my foreshadowing for these thousands of years might be fooled into receiving "another Tom", but you shouldn't be fooled into receiving this imposter. Doesn't this make sense? Okay, let's stop imagining. The Bible declares:
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."(Hebrews 10:1)
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."(Colossians 2:16-17)
The law or, more broadly speaking, the entire Old Testament is filled with types and shadows that were designed to help believers to identify exactly Who Jesus Christ is and isn't long before He ever physically appeared on earth at His first coming and also long before He will physically appear on earth at His second coming. The believer who shuts their eyes and fool-heartedly refuses to observe what was foreshadowed of Christ by the light of God's law for thousands of years greatly runs the risk of receiving "another Jesus"(II Corinthians 11:4), just as the individual who shut their eyes and fool-heartedly refused to observe my foreshadowing that was cast by the Sun for thousands of years in the example I gave greatly ran the risk of receiving "another Tom". Doesn't this also make sense? Sad to say, I am thoroughly convinced that vast multitudes of professing believers are already worshipping an imposter or "another Jesus" because they have refused to observe the shadow of Christ that was cast by the light of God's law for thousands of years. This is but one of many reasons that there is disagreement between those who both profess to be true believers in Jesus Christ. A very simple example of a foreshadowing of Christ can be found in all of the Old Testament sacrifices. Since the Bible declares that Jesus Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"(Revelation 13:8) or that Jesus was foreordained to sacrificially die for the sins of mankind, God then instituted all sorts of Old Testament sacrifices that foreshadowed the inevitable crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The people whose forefathers had partaken of these foreshadowing sacrifices for thousands of years should have known what John the Baptist meant when he said:
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world."(John 1:29)
Sad to say, the vast majority of them missed it. The point being this...
If you take away all of the Old Testament foreshadowings, you greatly run the risk of not properly understanding Who Jesus Christ is. For example, many of the Jews of Christ's time on earth and also many Jews presently on earth are looking for a Messiah that will only come as a conquering King. They have completely missed the fact that Messiah or Christ must first SUFFER, even though God foreshadowed this for thousands of years. This goes to show that, even with all of these foreshadowings, one can still miss Christ by simply closing their eyes to the truth. Sorry to be so long winded, but I've wanted to state some things about the importance and significance of the Old Testament for quite some time now due to certain things that others have posted regarding it throughout this vast forum. I trust I didn't bore you.
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 28 2005, 04:23 PM)
Whether or not you're truly a "fellow Christian" yet remains to be seen.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
But I have no doubts that you will dig up another verse to explain why this doesn't apply to you.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
But I have no doubts that you will dig up another verse to explain why this doesn't apply to you.
Hi All,
Do all these guys use slogans all the time as if they were selling us soap powder? Or can they think for themselves?
Seems we all need to go out and buy Chairman Mao's Little Red Book to help us all think??
Cheers
Do all these guys use slogans all the time as if they were selling us soap powder? Or can they think for themselves?
Seems we all need to go out and buy Chairman Mao's Little Red Book to help us all think??
Cheers
QUOTE (newguy+)
Arthur: The Old Testament is not a "piss poor history book" as it has repeatedly been shown to be historically accurate by archaeological digs and the like. I'm puzzled how you could continue on to say how "the new testament, was SO much better". Much of the New Testament(practically all of it) cannot properly be understood without an understanding of the Old Testament. For example, just start with the very first verse of the New Testament.
I was referring to style, archaic word use etc. and the fact that the story is not told in a clear, linear and well organized manner as a typical history book about the same period would do it. Its frequent excursions are used to make religious points, not historical ones.
Not surprising, since it wasn't supposed to be a history textbook, though of course it does contain plenty of historical information.
Arthur
I was referring to style, archaic word use etc. and the fact that the story is not told in a clear, linear and well organized manner as a typical history book about the same period would do it. Its frequent excursions are used to make religious points, not historical ones.
Not surprising, since it wasn't supposed to be a history textbook, though of course it does contain plenty of historical information.
Arthur
QUOTE (Good Elf+Oct 29 2005, 11:29 AM)
Seems we all need to go out and buy Chairman Mao's Little Red Book to help us all think??
Is that the King James version.. or the Revised Standard? Heaven forbid that it be one of those new fangled modern translations.
Is that the King James version.. or the Revised Standard? Heaven forbid that it be one of those new fangled modern translations.
QUOTE (gmilam+Oct 29 2005, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE (Good Elf+Oct 29 2005, 11:29 AM)
Seems we all need to go out and buy Chairman Mao's Little Red Book to help us all think??
Is that the King James version.. or the Revised Standard? Heaven forbid that it be one of those new fangled modern translations.
Gmilam-
I'd recommend the original Chinese. Yes, you'd have to learn Chinese, but if you're an American scientist, that would not be a bad thing to know, considering how things are going in America these days.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Is that the King James version.. or the Revised Standard? Heaven forbid that it be one of those new fangled modern translations.
Gmilam-
I'd recommend the original Chinese. Yes, you'd have to learn Chinese, but if you're an American scientist, that would not be a bad thing to know, considering how things are going in America these days.
QUOTE (zepillin+Aug 10 2005, 03:14 AM)
I do not believe a deity caused everything to exist nor that he/she brought everything into being.
I do not believe there was ever a beginning nor that there will ever be an end.
You appear to be contradicting yourself. You believe in infinity within the confines of the universe. Without a supernatural being outside of the universe, infinity is not a real subject. Even with a supernatural being outside of the universe, there is no such thing as infinity within the universe.
For example:
Lets say I have infinity marbles.
What if I gave you all of them? Then I would have none, and you would have infinity
What if I gave you half of them? Then we would both have infinity
What if I gave you all but 5? Then you would have infinity and I would have 5.
So, infinity - infinity = 0, infinity - infinity = infinity, AND infinity - infinity = 5
Thus, infinity is not a true mathmatical number and cannot be used to express anything in the least bit mathmatical within the universe, such as infinite years, or an ifinite number of universes.
I do not believe there was ever a beginning nor that there will ever be an end.
You appear to be contradicting yourself. You believe in infinity within the confines of the universe. Without a supernatural being outside of the universe, infinity is not a real subject. Even with a supernatural being outside of the universe, there is no such thing as infinity within the universe.
For example:
Lets say I have infinity marbles.
What if I gave you all of them? Then I would have none, and you would have infinity
What if I gave you half of them? Then we would both have infinity
What if I gave you all but 5? Then you would have infinity and I would have 5.
So, infinity - infinity = 0, infinity - infinity = infinity, AND infinity - infinity = 5
Thus, infinity is not a true mathmatical number and cannot be used to express anything in the least bit mathmatical within the universe, such as infinite years, or an ifinite number of universes.
QUOTE (CrushU+Aug 9 2005, 11:56 PM)
You can't prove or disprove Evolution, or Creation. Which means anyone who touts Evolution is, in fact, following a religion of their own. Keep that in mind. Now, with this said... There are alot of arguements for Intelligent Design, and alot of them against Evolution. There are some for Evolution, and some against Intelligent Design. I like to keep informed on both sides of this, though I believe in Creation, not Evolution.
Evolution has a hard time explaining interdependent systems, such as the eye. Each part would've had to evolve one at a time, yet you need all the parts to have a working eye. Why have an eye socket with nothing to put in it? It's a waste, and therefore would have a less likely chance of surviving to the next generation.
Evolution requires BILLIONS of years. Mutations are rare, and beneficial ones are undocumented. (There has been no beneficial mutation ever documented. Diseases and so forth do not mutate, merely the ones that are resistant to the methods we use to treat become more prevalent, relatively.) Assuming, however, that you could get a beneficial mutation with enough time... You have a few problems getting that much time on Earth. For starters, the Moon slowly drifts out a little bit each year. A little bit over the period of a few billion years, and the moon is inside the Earth? ... Well, perhaps it was broken off by an impact of some kind... Alright, how about the fact that the Earth is slowly drifting away from the sun? And the sun is slowly shrinking, too. A few billion years ago, the Earth would've been inside the sun. I'd call that a hostile environment.
I know I'm not listing many faults of Creation, but that's mostly because of my ignorance, right? Here's one, I think... Why are there so many 'waste' stuff in our DNA and our anatomy? We don't need our appendix... Right? ... We don't need our tailbone... Right? And aren't there large sections of DNA that don't control anything? Of course, we don't understand the entire strand yet, but surely there is some waste in there, after all, evolution would've left some there.
And what about the transitional fossils? Don't those prove evolution is correct, that some species were different in the past? Perhaps, but I seem to recall Darwin himself saying that the number of transitional fossils would be innumerable. How many have we found?
Alright, here's the big drawback of Creation: It requires faith in God. If you can't believe in a God, then you can't belive in Design or Creation, no matter what. You simply HAVE to make a leap of faith, because we won't ever be able to explain it all. This is true for Evolution, as well, though. We can't ever prove our origins, because we'd have to duplicate them, which is impossible. Unless you have a few spare billion years on your hands to wait for results.
All in all, this whole "debate" is meaningless. You either believe in God and that He Created us for a purpose, or you believe that we came about by random chance, that humans are the best merely because we got the best mutations. No one else can make you believe otherwise.
(I happened to Stumble here, so this'll probably be my only post. Though I might be able to find my way back to respond if others respond to this post.)
how do you explain the fact that mathmaticus, the bases for everything not to mension a big part of science, goes against everthing evolution states?
Evolution has a hard time explaining interdependent systems, such as the eye. Each part would've had to evolve one at a time, yet you need all the parts to have a working eye. Why have an eye socket with nothing to put in it? It's a waste, and therefore would have a less likely chance of surviving to the next generation.
Evolution requires BILLIONS of years. Mutations are rare, and beneficial ones are undocumented. (There has been no beneficial mutation ever documented. Diseases and so forth do not mutate, merely the ones that are resistant to the methods we use to treat become more prevalent, relatively.) Assuming, however, that you could get a beneficial mutation with enough time... You have a few problems getting that much time on Earth. For starters, the Moon slowly drifts out a little bit each year. A little bit over the period of a few billion years, and the moon is inside the Earth? ... Well, perhaps it was broken off by an impact of some kind... Alright, how about the fact that the Earth is slowly drifting away from the sun? And the sun is slowly shrinking, too. A few billion years ago, the Earth would've been inside the sun. I'd call that a hostile environment.
I know I'm not listing many faults of Creation, but that's mostly because of my ignorance, right? Here's one, I think... Why are there so many 'waste' stuff in our DNA and our anatomy? We don't need our appendix... Right? ... We don't need our tailbone... Right? And aren't there large sections of DNA that don't control anything? Of course, we don't understand the entire strand yet, but surely there is some waste in there, after all, evolution would've left some there.
And what about the transitional fossils? Don't those prove evolution is correct, that some species were different in the past? Perhaps, but I seem to recall Darwin himself saying that the number of transitional fossils would be innumerable. How many have we found?
Alright, here's the big drawback of Creation: It requires faith in God. If you can't believe in a God, then you can't belive in Design or Creation, no matter what. You simply HAVE to make a leap of faith, because we won't ever be able to explain it all. This is true for Evolution, as well, though. We can't ever prove our origins, because we'd have to duplicate them, which is impossible. Unless you have a few spare billion years on your hands to wait for results.
All in all, this whole "debate" is meaningless. You either believe in God and that He Created us for a purpose, or you believe that we came about by random chance, that humans are the best merely because we got the best mutations. No one else can make you believe otherwise.
(I happened to Stumble here, so this'll probably be my only post. Though I might be able to find my way back to respond if others respond to this post.)
how do you explain the fact that mathmaticus, the bases for everything not to mension a big part of science, goes against everthing evolution states?
I have been away for quite a few days, and I would just like to say thanks to newguy for also pointing out how Soloved has misquoted the bible. This adds to how he has misquoted everything else available in this forum.
I don't really have time to post much right now, and definately nothing in depth, so I am just going to comment on newguy's shadow analogy. I totally understand what your getting at (which speaks volumes since I haven't actually read the old testament) so I am just going to light heartedly comment on the shadow you make.
Thats one detailed shadow. I don't know about your beard, but that must be one hell of a beard to be visable in a shadow. Thin I understand, but tall is a tough one because a shadow's length is dependant on the time of day (eg, the angle that the sun is compared to you) Balding on top.....I guess depends on your hair, but I also think a bit tough to distinguish from a shadow. Glasses I think would probably be the toughest because if the sun was striking your back it is likely that your ears, and head would get in the way of the possible shadow cast by any part of your glasses.
Anyways, before there starts and arguement, I get your point, just amazed by the shadow you cast.....I sure don't cast a detailed shadow like that.
Hope everyone is doing well.
Oh, and for Soloved if he ever comes back. I have not been trying to disprove the bible. I have, however been trying to show that when you take the bible out of its intended forum, it does not hold any weight. As a religious text, I would say the bible is pretty good (not having read it I will let the people who have 'grade' it more specifically). As a science textbook it is not good. I know there are lots of places where foreshadowing to modern science can be pulled out. Coincidence or not, without the new scientific developments, this foreshadowing would mean nothing, and you could not learn modern science with only the bible. I think Arthur said it right, that as a history book it isn't the greatest, even though there is a lot of verifiable history in it. This is because its goal is not that of a history book, but a book of worship and salvation. I may be a son of the devil, and not a son of god, as we have learned from newguy, who, to his credit (even though I hate the long quotes) doesn't appear to take the bible out of context. I may be a son of the devil in the eyes of newguy, but I do not try to hide it. I know my beliefs, and thats good enough for me.
I don't really have time to post much right now, and definately nothing in depth, so I am just going to comment on newguy's shadow analogy. I totally understand what your getting at (which speaks volumes since I haven't actually read the old testament) so I am just going to light heartedly comment on the shadow you make.
QUOTE
1. You would know that I am tall.
2. You would know that I am thin.
3. You would know that I am balding on top.
4. You would know that I wear glasses.
5. You would know that I have a beard.
2. You would know that I am thin.
3. You would know that I am balding on top.
4. You would know that I wear glasses.
5. You would know that I have a beard.
Thats one detailed shadow. I don't know about your beard, but that must be one hell of a beard to be visable in a shadow. Thin I understand, but tall is a tough one because a shadow's length is dependant on the time of day (eg, the angle that the sun is compared to you) Balding on top.....I guess depends on your hair, but I also think a bit tough to distinguish from a shadow. Glasses I think would probably be the toughest because if the sun was striking your back it is likely that your ears, and head would get in the way of the possible shadow cast by any part of your glasses.
Anyways, before there starts and arguement, I get your point, just amazed by the shadow you cast.....I sure don't cast a detailed shadow like that.
Hope everyone is doing well.
Oh, and for Soloved if he ever comes back. I have not been trying to disprove the bible. I have, however been trying to show that when you take the bible out of its intended forum, it does not hold any weight. As a religious text, I would say the bible is pretty good (not having read it I will let the people who have 'grade' it more specifically). As a science textbook it is not good. I know there are lots of places where foreshadowing to modern science can be pulled out. Coincidence or not, without the new scientific developments, this foreshadowing would mean nothing, and you could not learn modern science with only the bible. I think Arthur said it right, that as a history book it isn't the greatest, even though there is a lot of verifiable history in it. This is because its goal is not that of a history book, but a book of worship and salvation. I may be a son of the devil, and not a son of god, as we have learned from newguy, who, to his credit (even though I hate the long quotes) doesn't appear to take the bible out of context. I may be a son of the devil in the eyes of newguy, but I do not try to hide it. I know my beliefs, and thats good enough for me.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Oct 19 2005, 01:47 PM)
Duke, newguy, SoLoved
I ask you all the following question. ... when the majority ... attack you, your religion and seek to enact limitations ... what ... then?
Rejoice, and be excedding glad!
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:11-16)
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:1-4)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
I ask you all the following question. ... when the majority ... attack you, your religion and seek to enact limitations ... what ... then?
Rejoice, and be excedding glad!
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:11-16)
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:1-4)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Man, what a way of butchering my post, and a very old one at that. Heres the original:
So I take it then that when the tables are turned and the xians are no longer the majority and the secular/non-xian push the same limitations on you that you are pushing onto them now (and worse seeing that it tends to be the nature of man and vengeance) and the more persecution you really face, the more reverent you will feel?
With that in mind, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
QUOTE
Duke, newguy, SoLoved
I ask you all the following question. There are several items in our culture that undergo what I call the pendulum effect. Religion is one of them. We as a nation are moving from a nation of a majority of one religion (xian-based) to a more secular and non-xian one.
As such, when the majority is not xian or xian based and they attack you, your religion and seek to enact limitations that you seek to place on them now, what will you cry then?
I ask you all the following question. There are several items in our culture that undergo what I call the pendulum effect. Religion is one of them. We as a nation are moving from a nation of a majority of one religion (xian-based) to a more secular and non-xian one.
As such, when the majority is not xian or xian based and they attack you, your religion and seek to enact limitations that you seek to place on them now, what will you cry then?
So I take it then that when the tables are turned and the xians are no longer the majority and the secular/non-xian push the same limitations on you that you are pushing onto them now (and worse seeing that it tends to be the nature of man and vengeance) and the more persecution you really face, the more reverent you will feel?
With that in mind, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Kaeroll+Oct 22 2005, 03:58 PM)
I may be able to partially answer that, albeit with GCSE-level biology
If the wolves killed all their prey (e.g. sheep - only one of many sources of food), they would begin to starve and die out, allowing sheep to become more plentiful again, in a never-ending cycle (the name of which I forget). Just a thought, may be totally wrong... more relevant than that handy quote of yours, though.
Kaeroll
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
If the wolves killed all their prey (e.g. sheep - only one of many sources of food), they would begin to starve and die out, allowing sheep to become more plentiful again, in a never-ending cycle (the name of which I forget). Just a thought, may be totally wrong... more relevant than that handy quote of yours, though.
Kaeroll
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
So what, sheep have eternal life? Fancy that.
(I know, I know, it's a metaphor. Least I hope so. Immortal sheep is just freaky.)
Fancy that.(I know, I know, it's a metaphor. Least I hope so. Immortal sheep is just freaky.)
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Nov 3 2005, 08:29 PM)
Man, what a way of butchering my post, and a very old one at that. Heres the original:
So I take it then that when the tables are turned and the xians are no longer the majority and the secular/non-xian push the same limitations on you that you are pushing onto them now (and worse seeing that it tends to be the nature of man and vengeance) and the more persecution you really face, the more reverent you will feel?
With that in mind, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE
Duke, newguy, SoLoved
I ask you all the following question. There are several items in our culture that undergo what I call the pendulum effect. Religion is one of them. We as a nation are moving from a nation of a majority of one religion (xian-based) to a more secular and non-xian one.
As such, when the majority is not xian or xian based and they attack you, your religion and seek to enact limitations that you seek to place on them now, what will you cry then?
I ask you all the following question. There are several items in our culture that undergo what I call the pendulum effect. Religion is one of them. We as a nation are moving from a nation of a majority of one religion (xian-based) to a more secular and non-xian one.
As such, when the majority is not xian or xian based and they attack you, your religion and seek to enact limitations that you seek to place on them now, what will you cry then?
So I take it then that when the tables are turned and the xians are no longer the majority and the secular/non-xian push the same limitations on you that you are pushing onto them now (and worse seeing that it tends to be the nature of man and vengeance) and the more persecution you really face, the more reverent you will feel?
With that in mind, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (Steveo+Nov 3 2005, 05:09 PM)
I have been away for quite a few days, and I would just like to say thanks to newguy for also pointing out how Soloved has misquoted the bible. This adds to how he has misquoted everything else available in this forum.
I don't really have time to post much right now, and definately nothing in depth, so I am just going to comment on newguy's shadow analogy. I totally understand what your getting at (which speaks volumes since I haven't actually read the old testament) so I am just going to light heartedly comment on the shadow you make.
Thats one detailed shadow. I don't know about your beard, but that must be one hell of a beard to be visable in a shadow. Thin I understand, but tall is a tough one because a shadow's length is dependant on the time of day (eg, the angle that the sun is compared to you) Balding on top.....I guess depends on your hair, but I also think a bit tough to distinguish from a shadow. Glasses I think would probably be the toughest because if the sun was striking your back it is likely that your ears, and head would get in the way of the possible shadow cast by any part of your glasses.
Anyways, before there starts and arguement, I get your point, just amazed by the shadow you cast.....I sure don't cast a detailed shadow like that.
Hope everyone is doing well.
Oh, and for Soloved if he ever comes back. I have not been trying to disprove the bible. I have, however been trying to show that when you take the bible out of its intended forum, it does not hold any weight. As a religious text, I would say the bible is pretty good (not having read it I will let the people who have 'grade' it more specifically). As a science textbook it is not good. I know there are lots of places where foreshadowing to modern science can be pulled out. Coincidence or not, without the new scientific developments, this foreshadowing would mean nothing, and you could not learn modern science with only the bible. I think Arthur said it right, that as a history book it isn't the greatest, even though there is a lot of verifiable history in it. This is because its goal is not that of a history book, but a book of worship and salvation. I may be a son of the devil, and not a son of god, as we have learned from newguy, who, to his credit (even though I hate the long quotes) doesn't appear to take the bible out of context. I may be a son of the devil in the eyes of newguy, but I do not try to hide it. I know my beliefs, and thats good enough for me.
Steveo: I've been without internet service for the last few days(I'm typing from a library...I even had to pay...I must be a glutton for punishment). A quick comment about my shadow. As long as my head is slightly turned, the outline of my glasses is clearly seen. Since I have hair on the sides of my head and very little on top(grass doesn't grow on a busy street), you can notice that I'm balding on top in my shadow. Especially when I'm walking next to someone shorter than me, you can tell that I am tall by my shadow...you can also tell because my shadow casts longer than a shorter person's shadow would. That's it for now...the library's closing. Hope to be back soon. Until then...
Newguy(a.k.a. "THE SHADOW"...I had to find something to bold-face!)
I don't really have time to post much right now, and definately nothing in depth, so I am just going to comment on newguy's shadow analogy. I totally understand what your getting at (which speaks volumes since I haven't actually read the old testament) so I am just going to light heartedly comment on the shadow you make.
QUOTE
1. You would know that I am tall.
2. You would know that I am thin.
3. You would know that I am balding on top.
4. You would know that I wear glasses.
5. You would know that I have a beard.
2. You would know that I am thin.
3. You would know that I am balding on top.
4. You would know that I wear glasses.
5. You would know that I have a beard.
Thats one detailed shadow. I don't know about your beard, but that must be one hell of a beard to be visable in a shadow. Thin I understand, but tall is a tough one because a shadow's length is dependant on the time of day (eg, the angle that the sun is compared to you) Balding on top.....I guess depends on your hair, but I also think a bit tough to distinguish from a shadow. Glasses I think would probably be the toughest because if the sun was striking your back it is likely that your ears, and head would get in the way of the possible shadow cast by any part of your glasses.
Anyways, before there starts and arguement, I get your point, just amazed by the shadow you cast.....I sure don't cast a detailed shadow like that.
Hope everyone is doing well.
Oh, and for Soloved if he ever comes back. I have not been trying to disprove the bible. I have, however been trying to show that when you take the bible out of its intended forum, it does not hold any weight. As a religious text, I would say the bible is pretty good (not having read it I will let the people who have 'grade' it more specifically). As a science textbook it is not good. I know there are lots of places where foreshadowing to modern science can be pulled out. Coincidence or not, without the new scientific developments, this foreshadowing would mean nothing, and you could not learn modern science with only the bible. I think Arthur said it right, that as a history book it isn't the greatest, even though there is a lot of verifiable history in it. This is because its goal is not that of a history book, but a book of worship and salvation. I may be a son of the devil, and not a son of god, as we have learned from newguy, who, to his credit (even though I hate the long quotes) doesn't appear to take the bible out of context. I may be a son of the devil in the eyes of newguy, but I do not try to hide it. I know my beliefs, and thats good enough for me.
Steveo: I've been without internet service for the last few days(I'm typing from a library...I even had to pay...I must be a glutton for punishment). A quick comment about my shadow. As long as my head is slightly turned, the outline of my glasses is clearly seen. Since I have hair on the sides of my head and very little on top(grass doesn't grow on a busy street), you can notice that I'm balding on top in my shadow. Especially when I'm walking next to someone shorter than me, you can tell that I am tall by my shadow...you can also tell because my shadow casts longer than a shorter person's shadow would. That's it for now...the library's closing. Hope to be back soon. Until then...
Newguy(a.k.a. "THE SHADOW"...I had to find something to bold-face!)
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 3 2005, 06:57 PM)
Since I have hair on the sides of my head and very little on top(grass doesn't grow on a busy street), you can notice that I'm balding on top in my shadow.
Grass doesn't grow in concrete either.
(I can say that - I'm bald on top too.)
Grass doesn't grow in concrete either.
(I can say that - I'm bald on top too.)
Howdy Shadow
So you mean your body besides your slow (very slow if it took you 1000 years to get to the corner) walking isn't entirely rigid for that 1000 years? Damn simplified newtonian mechanics with out rotation and deformation....hehehe. Ok, I can buy being able to tell your bald, because before I wasn't sure how much or little "balding on top" meant. During those 1000 years did anyone walk beside you? This is very important.....and if they did walk beside you, did they pass you and come into view of the people waiting to see, because if they didn't we could tell if they were relativily taller or shorter than you, but no absolute judgement could be passed there.
So you mean your body besides your slow (very slow if it took you 1000 years to get to the corner) walking isn't entirely rigid for that 1000 years? Damn simplified newtonian mechanics with out rotation and deformation....hehehe. Ok, I can buy being able to tell your bald, because before I wasn't sure how much or little "balding on top" meant. During those 1000 years did anyone walk beside you? This is very important.....and if they did walk beside you, did they pass you and come into view of the people waiting to see, because if they didn't we could tell if they were relativily taller or shorter than you, but no absolute judgement could be passed there.
Grass doesn't grow in concrete either. rolleyes.gif
(I can say that - I'm bald on top too.)
So since I have hair on my head or "grass" does that mean my head is made of dirt?
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
QUOTE
Steveo: I've been without internet service for the last few days(I'm typing from a library...I even had to pay...I must be a glutton for punishment). A quick comment about my shadow. As long as my head is slightly turned, the outline of my glasses is clearly seen. Since I have hair on the sides of my head and very little on top(grass doesn't grow on a busy street), you can notice that I'm balding on top in my shadow. Especially when I'm walking next to someone shorter than me, you can tell that I am tall by my shadow...you can also tell because my shadow casts longer than a shorter person's shadow would. That's it for now...the library's closing. Hope to be back soon. Until then...
Newguy(a.k.a. "THE SHADOW"...I had to find something to bold-face!)
Newguy(a.k.a. "THE SHADOW"...I had to find something to bold-face!)
So you mean your body besides your slow (very slow if it took you 1000 years to get to the corner) walking isn't entirely rigid for that 1000 years? Damn simplified newtonian mechanics with out rotation and deformation....hehehe. Ok, I can buy being able to tell your bald, because before I wasn't sure how much or little "balding on top" meant. During those 1000 years did anyone walk beside you? This is very important.....and if they did walk beside you, did they pass you and come into view of the people waiting to see, because if they didn't we could tell if they were relativily taller or shorter than you, but no absolute judgement could be passed there.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Steveo: I've been without internet service for the last few days(I'm typing from a library...I even had to pay...I must be a glutton for punishment). A quick comment about my shadow. As long as my head is slightly turned, the outline of my glasses is clearly seen. Since I have hair on the sides of my head and very little on top(grass doesn't grow on a busy street), you can notice that I'm balding on top in my shadow. Especially when I'm walking next to someone shorter than me, you can tell that I am tall by my shadow...you can also tell because my shadow casts longer than a shorter person's shadow would. That's it for now...the library's closing. Hope to be back soon. Until then... Newguy(a.k.a. "THE SHADOW"...I had to find something to bold-face!) |
So you mean your body besides your slow (very slow if it took you 1000 years to get to the corner) walking isn't entirely rigid for that 1000 years? Damn simplified newtonian mechanics with out rotation and deformation....hehehe. Ok, I can buy being able to tell your bald, because before I wasn't sure how much or little "balding on top" meant. During those 1000 years did anyone walk beside you? This is very important.....and if they did walk beside you, did they pass you and come into view of the people waiting to see, because if they didn't we could tell if they were relativily taller or shorter than you, but no absolute judgement could be passed there.
Grass doesn't grow in concrete either. rolleyes.gif
(I can say that - I'm bald on top too.)
So since I have hair on my head or "grass" does that mean my head is made of dirt?
JD sure loves scripture! I think I'll toss out a few of my favorite ones!
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (So kind, accepting and happy God is!)
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (Woot! Saturdays off from work!)
Leviticus 1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD". (The Lord loves a barbecue!)
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (How on earth will we dispose of millions of teenage corpses?)
Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. (The first rule about God Club: do not bitch about God Club.)
14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. (So "mercy" involves punishing kids for things they never even did, now?)
22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (Hmm, the punishment for rape is marriage? Perhaps God isn't so "pro-family", after all...)
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. (So it isn't murder if they don't die RIGHT away?)
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (With God, all things are possible! Except when enemies have iron chariots, those are like kryptonite to God!)
How to become a Christian: ignore scriptures like this, or find some way to justify them to yourself. After all, it's the bloody Word Of God, man!
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (So kind, accepting and happy God is!)
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (Woot! Saturdays off from work!)
Leviticus 1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD". (The Lord loves a barbecue!)
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (How on earth will we dispose of millions of teenage corpses?)
Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. (The first rule about God Club: do not bitch about God Club.)
14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. (So "mercy" involves punishing kids for things they never even did, now?)
22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (Hmm, the punishment for rape is marriage? Perhaps God isn't so "pro-family", after all...)
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. (So it isn't murder if they don't die RIGHT away?)
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (With God, all things are possible! Except when enemies have iron chariots, those are like kryptonite to God!)
How to become a Christian: ignore scriptures like this, or find some way to justify them to yourself. After all, it's the bloody Word Of God, man!
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 3 2005, 05:10 PM)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)
.
You avoided the question Duke. I wanted to know what you think not what the bible states. If you are unable to think for yourself and must rely on passages from the xian bible to speak for you, then simply say so.
You are just providing more evidence to support the idea that xians are unable to rationally address topics.
.
You avoided the question Duke. I wanted to know what you think not what the bible states. If you are unable to think for yourself and must rely on passages from the xian bible to speak for you, then simply say so.
You are just providing more evidence to support the idea that xians are unable to rationally address topics.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (sinned34+Nov 4 2005, 07:02 AM)
JD sure loves scripture! I think I'll toss out a few of my favorite ones!
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (...)
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (...)
Leviticus 1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD". (...)
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (...)
Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. (...)
14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. (...)
22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (...)
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. (...)
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (...)
...it's the bloody Word Of God, man!
Mankind chose to bring death and bloodshed into the world, but God provided the way of escape. If you really love death and destruction, you can remain in this mode forever (in hell). The choice is yours.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:6-21)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (...)
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (...)
Leviticus 1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD". (...)
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (...)
Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. (...)
14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. (...)
22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (...)
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. (...)
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (...)
...it's the bloody Word Of God, man!
Mankind chose to bring death and bloodshed into the world, but God provided the way of escape. If you really love death and destruction, you can remain in this mode forever (in hell). The choice is yours.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:6-21)
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Nov 4 2005, 02:13 PM)
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 3 2005, 05:10 PM)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)
.
You avoided the question Duke. I wanted to know what you think not what the bible states. If you are unable to think for yourself and must rely on passages from the xian bible to speak for you, then simply say so.
You are just providing more evidence to support the idea that xians are unable to rationally address topics.
I do not see anything in your previous post specifically asking me what I "think". Perhaps you are referring to your closing statement.
I think this is an example of poison-pen.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I think we get the point Jerry. You have said this at least half a dozen times, but without counting I am guessing its much more. Writing it over and over again does not mean we will listen to it. And your hogging valuable realestate for actual thoughts! Please stop!
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
.
You avoided the question Duke. I wanted to know what you think not what the bible states. If you are unable to think for yourself and must rely on passages from the xian bible to speak for you, then simply say so.
You are just providing more evidence to support the idea that xians are unable to rationally address topics.
I do not see anything in your previous post specifically asking me what I "think". Perhaps you are referring to your closing statement.
QUOTE
With that in mind, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
I think this is an example of poison-pen.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Leonid05+Oct 29 2005, 02:41 AM)
i didn't read the hole thing but did you ever think that god is a being that exists on a level where he/she/it can alter our laws of physics and instantly see the result for there own amusement
e.g. if gravity was a little higher, the big bang would just bang
e.g. if gravity was a little lower, the big bang would compress too fast for us to evolve
any comments on this?
The examples you cite sound like references to the cosmological constant, Lambda. God's motive for creating the heavens and the earth is love for his children. When the time comes to clean up our pollution, he will create new heavens and a new earth.
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1:9-17)
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (II Peter 3:11-13)
[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
e.g. if gravity was a little higher, the big bang would just bang
e.g. if gravity was a little lower, the big bang would compress too fast for us to evolve
any comments on this?
The examples you cite sound like references to the cosmological constant, Lambda. God's motive for creating the heavens and the earth is love for his children. When the time comes to clean up our pollution, he will create new heavens and a new earth.
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1:9-17)
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (II Peter 3:11-13)
[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
I think we get the point Jerry. You have said this at least half a dozen times, but without counting I am guessing its much more. Writing it over and over again does not mean we will listen to it. And your hogging valuable realestate for actual thoughts! Please stop!
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 4 2005, 11:00 AM)
I do not see anything in your previous post specifically asking me what I "think". Perhaps you are referring to your closing
statement.
Im sorry you do not interpret when someone asks you a question that it implies to probe what you think. Since you are operating in the pedantic mode of a fourth-grader, I will be more specific next time.
And again, answer the question. You simply commented about the question, you did not answer it.
With the fact in mind that society will one day be comprised mostly people of non-xian faith and they will seek to impose limitations and persecution onto the xians that you now seek to impose on anyone not xian, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
statement.
Im sorry you do not interpret when someone asks you a question that it implies to probe what you think. Since you are operating in the pedantic mode of a fourth-grader, I will be more specific next time.
QUOTE
I think this is an example of poison-pen.
And again, answer the question. You simply commented about the question, you did not answer it.
With the fact in mind that society will one day be comprised mostly people of non-xian faith and they will seek to impose limitations and persecution onto the xians that you now seek to impose on anyone not xian, can you even attempt to see what it is like to be one of the non-xians you condemn now? I mean beyond just a biblical view.
To: Genesplicer
I choose not to answer your question for three reasons:
1. Your vocabulary is alienating.
2. Your accusations are false.
3. The conditions you impose on my answer are not acceptable.
I choose not to answer your question for three reasons:
1. Your vocabulary is alienating.
2. Your accusations are false.
3. The conditions you impose on my answer are not acceptable.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Grumpy+Oct 23 2005, 02:33 PM)
... There are literally hundreds of tons of fossil evidence supporting what the scientists are saying, and absolutely no valid evidence(to this point in time) supporting any other interpretation of that evidence.
Those "scientists" who make statements dismissing evolution are simply wrong. ...
Grumpy
You might be interested in the book Buried Alive by Jack Cuozzo. Jack is an orthodontist who went to Europe to examine the skeletal remains, cave dwellings and burial places of Neanderthals. He documents how the jaws of fossilized human skulls were misaligned to give them an apish appearance and reports that since he published his findings some fossil skulls have been altered to make them appear less apish (though still not correct) and that other fossils have been destroyed.
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Those "scientists" who make statements dismissing evolution are simply wrong. ...
Grumpy
You might be interested in the book Buried Alive by Jack Cuozzo. Jack is an orthodontist who went to Europe to examine the skeletal remains, cave dwellings and burial places of Neanderthals. He documents how the jaws of fossilized human skulls were misaligned to give them an apish appearance and reports that since he published his findings some fossil skulls have been altered to make them appear less apish (though still not correct) and that other fossils have been destroyed.
How to become a Christian:
Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 4 2005, 04:34 PM)
To: Genesplicer
I choose not to answer your question for three reasons:
1. Your vocabulary is alienating.
2. Your accusations are false.
3. The conditions you impose on my answer are not acceptable.
Now let us be a bit more truthful Duke. Kind of you to admit that you were dodging the questions and hiding behind bible scripture rather than being honest and rational.
The reason you will not or cannot answer this question is due to the outcome such a rational answer would be. Theists claim to be facing such persecutions in our modern world, but in fact are the ones who force outdated, superstitious and faith-based limitations and persecutions onto others. The end result is the limitations of personal freedoms, free will and the violation of the rights of the individual.
If you were to live under similar persecutions or even entertain such persecution that will no dubitably exist in a United States of a more secular nature and one populated in the majority by non-theists, you might actually experience the human condition known as empathy. Under such an influence, you may be forced to see past the limitations of your faith and the current persecutions you insist are just and proper.
To answer your claims directly and in order:
1. My vocabulary is no more alienating now than it has been in the past. This makes your first point an inconsistent fabrication to avoid the question.
2. I have not made any accusations, but I have simply pointed to the fact that your faith seeks and imposes limitations on others in violations of personal freedoms and what the end effect will most likely be when people who think as you do are no longer in the majority.
3. You never answered but simply quoted the xian bible. I want to know what you think. If the only way you can answer me is to quote scripture, then so be it. I was giving you an opportunity to address a topic in your own words and by your own thoughts. My mistake.
I choose not to answer your question for three reasons:
1. Your vocabulary is alienating.
2. Your accusations are false.
3. The conditions you impose on my answer are not acceptable.
Now let us be a bit more truthful Duke. Kind of you to admit that you were dodging the questions and hiding behind bible scripture rather than being honest and rational.
The reason you will not or cannot answer this question is due to the outcome such a rational answer would be. Theists claim to be facing such persecutions in our modern world, but in fact are the ones who force outdated, superstitious and faith-based limitations and persecutions onto others. The end result is the limitations of personal freedoms, free will and the violation of the rights of the individual.
If you were to live under similar persecutions or even entertain such persecution that will no dubitably exist in a United States of a more secular nature and one populated in the majority by non-theists, you might actually experience the human condition known as empathy. Under such an influence, you may be forced to see past the limitations of your faith and the current persecutions you insist are just and proper.
To answer your claims directly and in order:
1. My vocabulary is no more alienating now than it has been in the past. This makes your first point an inconsistent fabrication to avoid the question.
2. I have not made any accusations, but I have simply pointed to the fact that your faith seeks and imposes limitations on others in violations of personal freedoms and what the end effect will most likely be when people who think as you do are no longer in the majority.
3. You never answered but simply quoted the xian bible. I want to know what you think. If the only way you can answer me is to quote scripture, then so be it. I was giving you an opportunity to address a topic in your own words and by your own thoughts. My mistake.
Jerry
Anybody can write anything they desire, that doesn't make it true. If this accusation were true it would make the front pages of all major newspapers. It hasn't, that should tell you something about the credibility of the author.
Grumpy
Anybody can write anything they desire, that doesn't make it true. If this accusation were true it would make the front pages of all major newspapers. It hasn't, that should tell you something about the credibility of the author.
Grumpy
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here youll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.