Kaeroll: For what I'm about to give you, you're going to need an Old Testament as well as a New Testament to research. Actually, based upon 17+ years of personal observation in "Christian"(there's those quotation marks again) circles, one of the main reasons that so many "Christians" have no idea of what is truly being said in the New Testament(aside from the fact that many just simply aren't Christians, but false converts who have responded to a false "gospel") is because of their failure to read and properly understand the Old Testament. It has been truly said of the "New" and "Old" Testaments: "The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed." Let me give you a brief example of what I'm saying. Just look at the very first verse of the New Testament:
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matthew 1:1)
Now, just sitting there by itself, this verse may not seem to be saying all that much. However, anyone who has read and understood the Old Testament would know and understand that this verse is speaking volumes...volumes which most of the modern day "church"(Yes, more quotation marks) have apparently missed. There are plenty of verses in the Old Testament that foretell how Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" or "son" of Abraham will inherit "the promised land" RIGHT HERE ON EARTH at His return. Did you get that? "The PROMISED land". Sad to say, most "Christians" are expecting to inherit heaven as their final destination. There are also plenty of verses that foretell how Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" or "son" of David will sit on David's throne and rule over the nations RIGHT HERE ON EARTH from Jerusalem at His return. Again, sad to say, most "Christians" are expecting to be whisked off to heaven in some "secret rapture" to reign there. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have literally "fleeced the gullible flock" for millions upon millions of dollars with their best-selling "Left Behind" books and videos which propagate this totally Roman Catholic, "counter Reformation", doctrine which was deliberately concocted by Jesuit priests to take the focus off of the Papacy as the Biblical "antichrist" power and push it off somewhere into the distant future. Whewwww!!! You talk about your "run-on" sentences!!! I believe you're from the UK...perhaps you're familiar with some of "The Reformer's" teachings regarding the Papacy being the Biblical "antichrist"??? A lot of the "Reformers" were burned at the stake in England for opposing the Papacy...perhaps this was part of the history that you were taught growing up? Well, I'm getting ahead of myself. More on that later. In my attempt to show you some scriptures that foretell of the rise and evil practices of the Roman Catholic church, I will deliberately be citing from both the Old and New Testaments. I will probably only be citing from the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament for now. These two books pretty much go "hand in glove" with each other. I've often been asked if I take the Bible literally. Well, yes and no. There are definitely a lot of symbolisms within the pages of scripture that cannot be taken literally. However, at the same time, I do believe that the Bible interprets itself and the interpretations(which can be proved historically) which it gives can be taken literally. Hope I didn't confuse you there. Well, here goes. In both the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation you will find several references to "beasts". It becomes apparent, by allowing the Bible to interpret itself, that these "beasts" are NOT literal beasts. These "beasts" are representative of kings and their corresponding kingdoms. Let's start in the Book of Daniel. In Daniel chapter 7, Daniel has "dreams and visions"(Daniel 7:1) in which he sees "four great beasts come up from the sea, diverse one from another."(Daniel 7:3) Daniel is "grieved in his spirit" and "the visions of his head trouble him"(Daniel 7:15) and then he receives "the interpretation of the things."(Daniel 7:16) Daniel is told that:
"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."(Daniel 7:17)
In addition, he is told:
"The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."(Daniel 7:23)
From these last two verses, we can plainly see(well, maybe not people like "what's his name") that a "beast"(at least in Daniel's vision) represents both a "king" and his corresponding "kingdom". Do you see that? I trust you do. I'll briefly state who the four "beasts"/" kingdoms" were(I'll offer much proof at a later time if need be) and then I'll primarily focus on just the fourth "beast"/"kingdom". The four "beasts"/"kingdoms" were "lion with eagle's wings"/Babylon, "bear"/Medo-Persia, "leopard"/Greece and "dreadful and terrible"/Rome. This fourth "beast" which is representative of Rome is also mentioned in the Book of Revelation chapter 13. Here, this "beast" is actually described as a sort of compilation of all 4 "beasts" in that it has simply taken on many traits of the 3 "beasts" that preceded it. Simply put, the pagan Roman Catholic church has "borrowed" many pagan practices from other nations and has "Christianized"(quotes deliberate) them. In Revelation chapter 13, we're also told that this fourth "beast" receives its power from "the dragon" who is representative of Satan.
"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."(Revelation 13:2)
As I said, this fourth "beast" has traces of the three "beasts" that preceded it: "leopard"(Greece), "bear"(Medo-Persia) and "lion"(Babylon) and it receives its power from "the dragon"(Satan). After hopefully properly identifying who this fourth "beast" is(the Vatican/the Papacy), I will attempt to show you some of the pagan practices that they have "borrowed" from these other aforementioned nations.
As you probably know by now, I'm set up on a cart at a busy Mall. I'm afraid I'm going to have to answer you in parts. When I give my next part, I'll simply "quote" this post and then add to it so it can all be read at once, if you so desire. Sorry...but things are a bit crazy here. This will have to serve as an "intro" for now...
QUOTE (Steveo+Nov 28 2005, 05:50 PM)
Holy crap there were a lot of posts to read over the weekend. And I was even on on saturday for a little bit. So after reading 3+ pages of posts I should have a lot to comment on.....but now I just need to remember.
Someone pointed out a HUGE error in something I posted....it was about the antibiotics and virus's....thanks for correcting me, I should not have made that error, as I do know the difference between bacteria and virus....just apparently not on weekends.
Newguy, about the mount rushmore. You sort of went Man designed mount rushmore to look like man, so god must have designed man to look like him. I can see why you would make that jump, and how to you it seems reasonable, and true (because you have a strong belief that we were created in gods image), but I hope you can understand where someone skeptical about it doesn't see the certainty in that conclusion. I find it a very week extrapolation (is that the right word to be using there?). From a science/statistical point of view we only have one 'data point', and we are drawing a conclusion (I like to think of it as assuming that one data point falls on a linear fit - sorry.........I always seem to think in terms of the physics I have learned).%
Steveo: My Mount Rushmore post originally followed your "Hoodos" post... The point that I was atttempting to make was if a very rough draft of men(carvings on Mt. Rushmore) was clearly "designed", then why not the vastly more intricate men themselves that were depicted in this rough draft? Again, it was originally following your "Hoodos" post...
Someone pointed out a HUGE error in something I posted....it was about the antibiotics and virus's....thanks for correcting me, I should not have made that error, as I do know the difference between bacteria and virus....just apparently not on weekends.
Newguy, about the mount rushmore. You sort of went Man designed mount rushmore to look like man, so god must have designed man to look like him. I can see why you would make that jump, and how to you it seems reasonable, and true (because you have a strong belief that we were created in gods image), but I hope you can understand where someone skeptical about it doesn't see the certainty in that conclusion. I find it a very week extrapolation (is that the right word to be using there?). From a science/statistical point of view we only have one 'data point', and we are drawing a conclusion (I like to think of it as assuming that one data point falls on a linear fit - sorry.........I always seem to think in terms of the physics I have learned).%
Steveo: My Mount Rushmore post originally followed your "Hoodos" post... The point that I was atttempting to make was if a very rough draft of men(carvings on Mt. Rushmore) was clearly "designed", then why not the vastly more intricate men themselves that were depicted in this rough draft? Again, it was originally following your "Hoodos" post...
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 28 2005, 07:29 PM)
QUOTE (Steveo+Nov 28 2005, 05:50 PM)
Holy crap there were a lot of posts to read over the weekend. And I was even on on saturday for a little bit. So after reading 3+ pages of posts I should have a lot to comment on.....but now I just need to remember.
Someone pointed out a HUGE error in something I posted....it was about the antibiotics and virus's....thanks for correcting me, I should not have made that error, as I do know the difference between bacteria and virus....just apparently not on weekends.
Newguy, about the mount rushmore. You sort of went Man designed mount rushmore to look like man, so god must have designed man to look like him. I can see why you would make that jump, and how to you it seems reasonable, and true (because you have a strong belief that we were created in gods image), but I hope you can understand where someone skeptical about it doesn't see the certainty in that conclusion. I find it a very week extrapolation (is that the right word to be using there?). From a science/statistical point of view we only have one 'data point', and we are drawing a conclusion (I like to think of it as assuming that one data point falls on a linear fit - sorry.........I always seem to think in terms of the physics I have learned).%
Steveo: My Mount Rushmore post originally followed your "Hoodos" post... The point that I was atttempting to make was if a very rough draft of men(carvings on Mt. Rushmore) was clearly "designed", then why not the vastly more intricate men themselves that were depicted in this rough draft? Again, it was originally following your "Hoodos" post...
Because Mt. Rushmore is not a living biological specimen.
I hope that wasn't an intentional pun, Steveo.
Someone pointed out a HUGE error in something I posted....it was about the antibiotics and virus's....thanks for correcting me, I should not have made that error, as I do know the difference between bacteria and virus....just apparently not on weekends.
Newguy, about the mount rushmore. You sort of went Man designed mount rushmore to look like man, so god must have designed man to look like him. I can see why you would make that jump, and how to you it seems reasonable, and true (because you have a strong belief that we were created in gods image), but I hope you can understand where someone skeptical about it doesn't see the certainty in that conclusion. I find it a very week extrapolation (is that the right word to be using there?). From a science/statistical point of view we only have one 'data point', and we are drawing a conclusion (I like to think of it as assuming that one data point falls on a linear fit - sorry.........I always seem to think in terms of the physics I have learned).%
Steveo: My Mount Rushmore post originally followed your "Hoodos" post... The point that I was atttempting to make was if a very rough draft of men(carvings on Mt. Rushmore) was clearly "designed", then why not the vastly more intricate men themselves that were depicted in this rough draft? Again, it was originally following your "Hoodos" post...
Because Mt. Rushmore is not a living biological specimen.
Newguy,
Interesting reading - unfortunately, I couldn't find my New Testament, and don't own the Old Testament. Something you may find interesting, by the way - I was given the former upon entering an R.C. high school - we were each given a 'Bible'. By my understanding, the Bible is both testaments. Just occurred to me.
Your interpretation of the 'beasts' does make a lot of sense - it'd not have occurred to me, admittedly, given my lack of knowledge of the O.T. We only studied certain areas of the New Testament in our religion classes; we focused mostly on the Sermon on the Mount and some parables. Can't remember most of them, though
Something about a mustard seed!
Regarding Reformists - I am from the UK, but haven't studied this in much detail. The understanding I have is this: The R.C. church was dominant for the most part until circa 1500 (give or take 200 years), at which point the Anglican/CoE and various Orthodox churches split away. ~1700 the first truly Protestant churches split away, as they opposed the Pope and the liturgical form of worship. That's as much as I know, and I realise it is very likely full of errors. In history classes (which I dropped as soon as I could) we touched very briefly on the Catholic/Protestant issues around the reign of Henry VIII, y'know, the whole jumping between them thing. Is this the period you referred to, in which people were put to death? My ignorance of this is actually quite embarrassing ... Anyway, we still feel the repercussions of that even now - with the IRA/northern ireland stuff, and the fact that a Catholic cannot ascend to the throne. Amongst other things.
Actually, on the topic of Protestantism (which is what I understand reformist churches to be) - from personal experience, I would say that the Catholic style of worship is quite ... well, silly, for lack of a better word. It seems very much a follow-the-crowd thing, without room for any flexibility or real celebration of faith. To me, mass worship should be about sharing your faith with others (including the priest or minister or whoever) - rather than being dictated to and singing prayers you don't mean. What are your thoughts on this?
So yeah, I've got a hectic week this week myself - first university interview on Thursday, so I have a lot of preparation to do! So don't worry too much about continuing your (very interesting) discussion of the R.C. church - that said, I do look forward to the next 'installment'.
Finally, if I may inject a much briefer thought into the Mt. Rushmore thing - I see your point about it being 'evidence of design', but I feel it's subtly different to evolution. Mt Rushmore would, to come about by chance, have to come about purely by chance, whereas in evolution there's that selective pressure to drive it ever onwards. Still, I'll leave you fellas to duke that one out
Hope all's well for everyone, sorry about the fairly long post.
Kaeroll
Interesting reading - unfortunately, I couldn't find my New Testament, and don't own the Old Testament. Something you may find interesting, by the way - I was given the former upon entering an R.C. high school - we were each given a 'Bible'. By my understanding, the Bible is both testaments. Just occurred to me.
Your interpretation of the 'beasts' does make a lot of sense - it'd not have occurred to me, admittedly, given my lack of knowledge of the O.T. We only studied certain areas of the New Testament in our religion classes; we focused mostly on the Sermon on the Mount and some parables. Can't remember most of them, though
Something about a mustard seed!Regarding Reformists - I am from the UK, but haven't studied this in much detail. The understanding I have is this: The R.C. church was dominant for the most part until circa 1500 (give or take 200 years), at which point the Anglican/CoE and various Orthodox churches split away. ~1700 the first truly Protestant churches split away, as they opposed the Pope and the liturgical form of worship. That's as much as I know, and I realise it is very likely full of errors. In history classes (which I dropped as soon as I could) we touched very briefly on the Catholic/Protestant issues around the reign of Henry VIII, y'know, the whole jumping between them thing. Is this the period you referred to, in which people were put to death? My ignorance of this is actually quite embarrassing ... Anyway, we still feel the repercussions of that even now - with the IRA/northern ireland stuff, and the fact that a Catholic cannot ascend to the throne. Amongst other things.
Actually, on the topic of Protestantism (which is what I understand reformist churches to be) - from personal experience, I would say that the Catholic style of worship is quite ... well, silly, for lack of a better word. It seems very much a follow-the-crowd thing, without room for any flexibility or real celebration of faith. To me, mass worship should be about sharing your faith with others (including the priest or minister or whoever) - rather than being dictated to and singing prayers you don't mean. What are your thoughts on this?
So yeah, I've got a hectic week this week myself - first university interview on Thursday, so I have a lot of preparation to do! So don't worry too much about continuing your (very interesting) discussion of the R.C. church - that said, I do look forward to the next 'installment'.
Finally, if I may inject a much briefer thought into the Mt. Rushmore thing - I see your point about it being 'evidence of design', but I feel it's subtly different to evolution. Mt Rushmore would, to come about by chance, have to come about purely by chance, whereas in evolution there's that selective pressure to drive it ever onwards. Still, I'll leave you fellas to duke that one out
Hope all's well for everyone, sorry about the fairly long post.
Kaeroll
Newguy, FYI, your not that new anymore haha.
About the mount rushmore thing. Yeah, it was posted in context with the Hoodoos, but they didn't really go that well together. I was trying, in a more general sense to try and show that design, and evidence of design is a very subjective thing. We both could look at two systems and I could think it was designed, and you might think it occured naturally (I know it would be the other way around, but this is a hypothetical hehe) Messenger seems to think that design is obvious and clear, but it has been my experience (mostly in mathematics) that when the phrase "this should be clear" is said what it usually means is "the answer is known, but the I might get stuck on the details, so I am not going to attempt it". I feel that judging design is sort of along the same lines of difficulty as writing an IQ test that is entirely unbiased. Its practically impossible to do it on a completely consistent manner.
And based entirely on the mount rushmore example, coming to the conclusion that man is designed might be a 'reasonable' hypothesis. But in no way is it the only possible conclusion, or a rock solid, infalliable conclusion.
About the mount rushmore thing. Yeah, it was posted in context with the Hoodoos, but they didn't really go that well together. I was trying, in a more general sense to try and show that design, and evidence of design is a very subjective thing. We both could look at two systems and I could think it was designed, and you might think it occured naturally (I know it would be the other way around, but this is a hypothetical hehe) Messenger seems to think that design is obvious and clear, but it has been my experience (mostly in mathematics) that when the phrase "this should be clear" is said what it usually means is "the answer is known, but the I might get stuck on the details, so I am not going to attempt it". I feel that judging design is sort of along the same lines of difficulty as writing an IQ test that is entirely unbiased. Its practically impossible to do it on a completely consistent manner.
QUOTE
Steveo: My Mount Rushmore post originally followed your "Hoodos" post... The point that I was atttempting to make was if a very rough draft of men(carvings on Mt. Rushmore) was clearly "designed", then why not the vastly more intricate men themselves that were depicted in this rough draft? Again, it was originally following your "Hoodos" post...
And based entirely on the mount rushmore example, coming to the conclusion that man is designed might be a 'reasonable' hypothesis. But in no way is it the only possible conclusion, or a rock solid, infalliable conclusion.
QUOTE
a rock solid
I hope that wasn't an intentional pun, Steveo.
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 26 2005, 09:11 PM)
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?!
"Anthropomorphism"? 
MOMMY!!! 
Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?!
"Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 12:20 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 26 2005, 09:11 PM)
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?! "Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.
I'm not going to tackle your faith-based hangups, but I will say that science is looking for ways to improve the life, and prolong the life of people, not "cure death". That's preposterous.
But this isn't what I was waiting for you to respond to.
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?!
"Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later. I'm not going to tackle your faith-based hangups, but I will say that science is looking for ways to improve the life, and prolong the life of people, not "cure death". That's preposterous.
But this isn't what I was waiting for you to respond to.
QUOTE (Steveo+Nov 28 2005, 10:40 PM)
And based entirely on the mount rushmore example, coming to the conclusion that man is designed might be a 'reasonable' hypothesis. But in no way is it the only possible conclusion, or a rock solid, infalliable conclusion.
Steveo: Believe it or not, that was all that I was asking for. A "reasonable hypothesis", in this specific example, suits me just fine.
Steveo: Believe it or not, that was all that I was asking for. A "reasonable hypothesis", in this specific example, suits me just fine.
MXWordNerd: I don't have any "faith-based hangups", just a living personal relationship with God, so I won't argue that point. If this wasn't what you wanted me to respond to, then I'm assuming you're waiting for a response to our "knowing God" conversation. Is that a correct assumption on my part? I incorporated a little of that into my prior post, but I've certainly got much, much more to say on the topic, if you're interested. Please let me know. Thanks. I might not be able to answer that until tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I really am strapped for time and I'm involved in conversations all over the place. I'm still trying to answer some questions from a week ago. Talk to you later.
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 01:51 AM)
MXWordNerd: I don't have any "faith-based hangups", just a living personal relationship with God, so I won't argue that point. If this wasn't what you wanted me to respond to, then I'm assuming you're waiting for a response to our "knowing God" conversation. Is that a correct assumption on my part? I incorporated a little of that into my prior post, but I've certainly got much, much more to say on the topic, if you're interested. Please let me know. Thanks. I might not be able to answer that until tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I really am strapped for time and I'm involved in conversations all over the place. I'm still trying to answer some questions from a week ago. Talk to you later.
Yeah. It's impossible to know god, yet you say you DEFINITELY KNOW god.
This ought to be interesting...
Yeah. It's impossible to know god, yet you say you DEFINITELY KNOW god.
This ought to be interesting...
Hi all.
Can anyone reconcile all this 'resurrection' of 'believers' ONLY...and that such 'resurrection' will happen ONLY at 'the end' of this 'experiment' by god...with the reality?
I mean, every day around this planet, some christian/non-christian, some agnostic/atheist etc, will be 'resurrected' by a heart de-fibrillator or some CPR technique developed/applied by (again) christian/non-christian and agnostic/atheist lay citizen or professional medical scientist/worker.
That is, they were EFFECTIVELY DEAD if left to 'god's' mercy; but were 're-started' by HUMAN AGENCY and scientific instruments/techniques. And all of this HANGS on the LUCK of such a 'dead' person 'dying' in the right place at the right time with the right support/techniques within EFFECTIVE reach before IRREVERSIBLE 'death' and impossibility of 'resurrection' NOW and by HUMANS of all persuasions/creeds.
BTW, I don't wan't to confuse this RESURRECTION after 'death', with PREVENTION of death through timely intervention/advice etc...which is a whole OTHER 'lucky dip' question, hehehe.
Your thoughts, anyone?
RealityCheck.
.
Can anyone reconcile all this 'resurrection' of 'believers' ONLY...and that such 'resurrection' will happen ONLY at 'the end' of this 'experiment' by god...with the reality?
I mean, every day around this planet, some christian/non-christian, some agnostic/atheist etc, will be 'resurrected' by a heart de-fibrillator or some CPR technique developed/applied by (again) christian/non-christian and agnostic/atheist lay citizen or professional medical scientist/worker.
That is, they were EFFECTIVELY DEAD if left to 'god's' mercy; but were 're-started' by HUMAN AGENCY and scientific instruments/techniques. And all of this HANGS on the LUCK of such a 'dead' person 'dying' in the right place at the right time with the right support/techniques within EFFECTIVE reach before IRREVERSIBLE 'death' and impossibility of 'resurrection' NOW and by HUMANS of all persuasions/creeds.
BTW, I don't wan't to confuse this RESURRECTION after 'death', with PREVENTION of death through timely intervention/advice etc...which is a whole OTHER 'lucky dip' question, hehehe.
Your thoughts, anyone?
RealityCheck.
.
Just a quick reply to your last post RC (before I go through the rest).....
Maybe some of these guys aren't quite ready for prime time?
Ha/Ha
Maybe some of these guys aren't quite ready for prime time?
Ha/Ha
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 28 2005, 01:23 PM)
Kaeroll: For what I'm about to give you, you're going to need an Old Testament as well as a New Testament to research. Actually, based upon 17+ years of personal observation in "Christian"(there's those quotation marks again) circles, one of the main reasons that so many "Christians" have no idea of what is truly being said in the New Testament(aside from the fact that many just simply aren't Christians, but false converts who have responded to a false "gospel") is because of their failure to read and properly understand the Old Testament. It has been truly said of the "New" and "Old" Testaments: "The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed." Let me give you a brief example of what I'm saying. Just look at the very first verse of the New Testament:
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matthew 1:1)
Now, just sitting there by itself, this verse may not seem to be saying all that much. However, anyone who has read and understood the Old Testament would know and understand that this verse is speaking volumes...volumes which most of the modern day "church"(Yes, more quotation marks) have apparently missed. There are plenty of verses in the Old Testament that foretell how Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" or "son" of Abraham will inherit "the promised land" RIGHT HERE ON EARTH at His return. Did you get that? "The PROMISED land". Sad to say, most "Christians" are expecting to inherit heaven as their final destination. There are also plenty of verses that foretell how Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" or "son" of David will sit on David's throne and rule over the nations RIGHT HERE ON EARTH from Jerusalem at His return. Again, sad to say, most "Christians" are expecting to be whisked off to heaven in some "secret rapture" to reign there. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have literally "fleeced the gullible flock" for millions upon millions of dollars with their best-selling "Left Behind" books and videos which propagate this totally Roman Catholic, "counter Reformation", doctrine which was deliberately concocted by Jesuit priests to take the focus off of the Papacy as the Biblical "antichrist" power and push it off somewhere into the distant future. Whewwww!!! You talk about your "run-on" sentences!!! I believe you're from the UK...perhaps you're familiar with some of "The Reformer's" teachings regarding the Papacy being the Biblical "antichrist"??? A lot of the "Reformers" were burned at the stake in England for opposing the Papacy...perhaps this was part of the history that you were taught growing up? Well, I'm getting ahead of myself. More on that later. In my attempt to show you some scriptures that foretell of the rise and evil practices of the Roman Catholic church, I will deliberately be citing from both the Old and New Testaments. I will probably only be citing from the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament for now. These two books pretty much go "hand in glove" with each other. I've often been asked if I take the Bible literally. Well, yes and no. There are definitely a lot of symbolisms within the pages of scripture that cannot be taken literally. However, at the same time, I do believe that the Bible interprets itself and the interpretations(which can be proved historically) which it gives can be taken literally. Hope I didn't confuse you there. Well, here goes. In both the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation you will find several references to "beasts". It becomes apparent, by allowing the Bible to interpret itself, that these "beasts" are NOT literal beasts. These "beasts" are representative of kings and their corresponding kingdoms. Let's start in the Book of Daniel. In Daniel chapter 7, Daniel has "dreams and visions"(Daniel 7:1) in which he sees "four great beasts come up from the sea, diverse one from another."(Daniel 7:3) Daniel is "grieved in his spirit" and "the visions of his head trouble him"(Daniel 7:15) and then he receives "the interpretation of the things."(Daniel 7:16) Daniel is told that:
"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."(Daniel 7:17)
In addition, he is told:
"The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."(Daniel 7:23)
From these last two verses, we can plainly see(well, maybe not people like "what's his name") that a "beast"(at least in Daniel's vision) represents both a "king" and his corresponding "kingdom". Do you see that? I trust you do. I'll briefly state who the four "beasts"/" kingdoms" were(I'll offer much proof at a later time if need be) and then I'll primarily focus on just the fourth "beast"/"kingdom". The four "beasts"/"kingdoms" were "lion with eagle's wings"/Babylon, "bear"/Medo-Persia, "leopard"/Greece and "dreadful and terrible"/Rome. This fourth "beast" which is representative of Rome is also mentioned in the Book of Revelation chapter 13. Here, this "beast" is actually described as a sort of compilation of all 4 "beasts" in that it has simply taken on many traits of the 3 "beasts" that preceded it. Simply put, the pagan Roman Catholic church has "borrowed" many pagan practices from other nations and has "Christianized"(quotes deliberate) them. In Revelation chapter 13, we're also told that this fourth "beast" receives its power from "the dragon" who is representative of Satan.
"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."(Revelation 13:2)
As I said, this fourth "beast" has traces of the three "beasts" that preceded it: "leopard"(Greece), "bear"(Medo-Persia) and "lion"(Babylon) and it receives its power from "the dragon"(Satan). After hopefully properly identifying who this fourth "beast" is(the Vatican/the Papacy), I will attempt to show you some of the pagan practices that they have "borrowed" from these other aforementioned nations.
As you probably know by now, I'm set up on a cart at a busy Mall. I'm afraid I'm going to have to answer you in parts. When I give my next part, I'll simply "quote" this post and then add to it so it can all be read at once, if you so desire. Sorry...but things are a bit crazy here. This will have to serve as an "intro" for now...
I'm going to post an alternative view to NewGuy's end times view in a few moments, and I thought it would be helpful to have his post nearby.
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matthew 1:1)
Now, just sitting there by itself, this verse may not seem to be saying all that much. However, anyone who has read and understood the Old Testament would know and understand that this verse is speaking volumes...volumes which most of the modern day "church"(Yes, more quotation marks) have apparently missed. There are plenty of verses in the Old Testament that foretell how Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" or "son" of Abraham will inherit "the promised land" RIGHT HERE ON EARTH at His return. Did you get that? "The PROMISED land". Sad to say, most "Christians" are expecting to inherit heaven as their final destination. There are also plenty of verses that foretell how Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" or "son" of David will sit on David's throne and rule over the nations RIGHT HERE ON EARTH from Jerusalem at His return. Again, sad to say, most "Christians" are expecting to be whisked off to heaven in some "secret rapture" to reign there. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have literally "fleeced the gullible flock" for millions upon millions of dollars with their best-selling "Left Behind" books and videos which propagate this totally Roman Catholic, "counter Reformation", doctrine which was deliberately concocted by Jesuit priests to take the focus off of the Papacy as the Biblical "antichrist" power and push it off somewhere into the distant future. Whewwww!!! You talk about your "run-on" sentences!!! I believe you're from the UK...perhaps you're familiar with some of "The Reformer's" teachings regarding the Papacy being the Biblical "antichrist"??? A lot of the "Reformers" were burned at the stake in England for opposing the Papacy...perhaps this was part of the history that you were taught growing up? Well, I'm getting ahead of myself. More on that later. In my attempt to show you some scriptures that foretell of the rise and evil practices of the Roman Catholic church, I will deliberately be citing from both the Old and New Testaments. I will probably only be citing from the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament for now. These two books pretty much go "hand in glove" with each other. I've often been asked if I take the Bible literally. Well, yes and no. There are definitely a lot of symbolisms within the pages of scripture that cannot be taken literally. However, at the same time, I do believe that the Bible interprets itself and the interpretations(which can be proved historically) which it gives can be taken literally. Hope I didn't confuse you there. Well, here goes. In both the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation you will find several references to "beasts". It becomes apparent, by allowing the Bible to interpret itself, that these "beasts" are NOT literal beasts. These "beasts" are representative of kings and their corresponding kingdoms. Let's start in the Book of Daniel. In Daniel chapter 7, Daniel has "dreams and visions"(Daniel 7:1) in which he sees "four great beasts come up from the sea, diverse one from another."(Daniel 7:3) Daniel is "grieved in his spirit" and "the visions of his head trouble him"(Daniel 7:15) and then he receives "the interpretation of the things."(Daniel 7:16) Daniel is told that:
"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."(Daniel 7:17)
In addition, he is told:
"The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."(Daniel 7:23)
From these last two verses, we can plainly see(well, maybe not people like "what's his name") that a "beast"(at least in Daniel's vision) represents both a "king" and his corresponding "kingdom". Do you see that? I trust you do. I'll briefly state who the four "beasts"/" kingdoms" were(I'll offer much proof at a later time if need be) and then I'll primarily focus on just the fourth "beast"/"kingdom". The four "beasts"/"kingdoms" were "lion with eagle's wings"/Babylon, "bear"/Medo-Persia, "leopard"/Greece and "dreadful and terrible"/Rome. This fourth "beast" which is representative of Rome is also mentioned in the Book of Revelation chapter 13. Here, this "beast" is actually described as a sort of compilation of all 4 "beasts" in that it has simply taken on many traits of the 3 "beasts" that preceded it. Simply put, the pagan Roman Catholic church has "borrowed" many pagan practices from other nations and has "Christianized"(quotes deliberate) them. In Revelation chapter 13, we're also told that this fourth "beast" receives its power from "the dragon" who is representative of Satan.
"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."(Revelation 13:2)
As I said, this fourth "beast" has traces of the three "beasts" that preceded it: "leopard"(Greece), "bear"(Medo-Persia) and "lion"(Babylon) and it receives its power from "the dragon"(Satan). After hopefully properly identifying who this fourth "beast" is(the Vatican/the Papacy), I will attempt to show you some of the pagan practices that they have "borrowed" from these other aforementioned nations.
As you probably know by now, I'm set up on a cart at a busy Mall. I'm afraid I'm going to have to answer you in parts. When I give my next part, I'll simply "quote" this post and then add to it so it can all be read at once, if you so desire. Sorry...but things are a bit crazy here. This will have to serve as an "intro" for now...
I'm going to post an alternative view to NewGuy's end times view in a few moments, and I thought it would be helpful to have his post nearby.
An alternate view of God's Kingdom - Preterism is the view that God's Kingdom has already been established by Jesus. His birth, death, and resurrection; along with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD accomplished this.
I have been a traditional Christian with a confused view of Revelation for the last umpteen years. When I read the Book of Revelation I saw one thing, but my church was telling me another. But I figured they knew what they were talking about. Recently, however, I have studied the Bible more indepth, along with historical records, and have come to the conclusion that I was probably right to begin with.
My views, after further study, are that God's Kingdom has already been established. Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, forms the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:
"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)
In Matthew 24, there is a great tribulation (persecution) of the saints which is followed immediately by the coming of Christ, which causes the heavens & earth to be shaken and all the tribes of the earth to mourn (Matt. 24:30). In 2 Thess. 1:6-10, we see the same scenario. The saints were being persecuted. Christ would come and give them relief (AD 66), and at the same time give tribulation to their persecutors. We are talking about two different phases of the tribulation, with Christ’s return in the middle (the first against the saints in AD 62 - 66, and the second against their persecutors in AD 66-70). Both passages (in their contexts) deal with both phases.
I believe the Millennial view falls into the same trap that the Jews fell into - that is that Christ would come to establish his kingdom on and reign on the earth.
Jesus Christ returned in AD 70 with great fanfare. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was an event “with much fanfare.” Josephus, a Jewish priest, mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.
Believe that God's words and Jesus' words are literally true in this situation.
The point of this post is to point out that many religions have twisted the words of the Bible to suit their own purposes. We are, to some degree, formed by tradition. It is difficult and painful to believe that our beliefs could be mistaken. But if we are ever to find the truth - we must explore all religions to extrapolate the truths, which I believe are found in the beliefs they hold most dear. What I mean by that is this: Some believe in pre-tribulation, their whole religion is founded on that. We should examine this belief based on the conclusion that this is an area that convinced them so completely that there must be some truth to it. The same is true for Martin Luther, who staked his very life on the fact that we are saved by God's grace, and not our works. Various religions have been born based on the profoundly held convictions of their founders. All these founders could be considered 'specialists'. They have discovered a secret and based a religion on it because the Catholic Church was reluctant to change. Traditionalists have a terrible time accepting change.
Now, you could, if you wish, apply this to NewGuys theory, or to the Rapture theory - but you must also verify it against the Bible.
Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Matt. 24:14). The good news had been preached to all the world by the time the book of Romans and the book of Colossians were written in the first century. (Romans 10:18) “Their voice (the voice of those preaching the good news) has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world”. (Col. 1:23) “This...gospel...has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven”. And shortly after the good news was preached in the whole world in the first century, the end of the Old Testament world came in fiery judgment in A.D. 70, at the destruction of Christ’s enemies.
Thus the end of Biblical Judaism. Historical records support the tale of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The Jews no longer practice animal sacrifice because of this. Of course Jesus was the 'lamb', the ultimate sacrifice.
Now just like 'God's will - will be done' - I have another absolute. Jesus says this in Matthew 16:28: "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
What does this mean? I can think of only two questions at this point. Is it literal in the sense that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled this statement. Or is it true in the sense that Jesus' believers would see Jesus' kingdom after they themselves were dead and resurrected?
Traditionalists will rush to say - what about this and what about that - but they must face the possibility that Jesus actually meant what he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been a traditional Christian with a confused view of Revelation for the last umpteen years. When I read the Book of Revelation I saw one thing, but my church was telling me another. But I figured they knew what they were talking about. Recently, however, I have studied the Bible more indepth, along with historical records, and have come to the conclusion that I was probably right to begin with.
My views, after further study, are that God's Kingdom has already been established. Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, forms the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:
"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)
In Matthew 24, there is a great tribulation (persecution) of the saints which is followed immediately by the coming of Christ, which causes the heavens & earth to be shaken and all the tribes of the earth to mourn (Matt. 24:30). In 2 Thess. 1:6-10, we see the same scenario. The saints were being persecuted. Christ would come and give them relief (AD 66), and at the same time give tribulation to their persecutors. We are talking about two different phases of the tribulation, with Christ’s return in the middle (the first against the saints in AD 62 - 66, and the second against their persecutors in AD 66-70). Both passages (in their contexts) deal with both phases.
I believe the Millennial view falls into the same trap that the Jews fell into - that is that Christ would come to establish his kingdom on and reign on the earth.
Jesus Christ returned in AD 70 with great fanfare. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was an event “with much fanfare.” Josephus, a Jewish priest, mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.
Believe that God's words and Jesus' words are literally true in this situation.
The point of this post is to point out that many religions have twisted the words of the Bible to suit their own purposes. We are, to some degree, formed by tradition. It is difficult and painful to believe that our beliefs could be mistaken. But if we are ever to find the truth - we must explore all religions to extrapolate the truths, which I believe are found in the beliefs they hold most dear. What I mean by that is this: Some believe in pre-tribulation, their whole religion is founded on that. We should examine this belief based on the conclusion that this is an area that convinced them so completely that there must be some truth to it. The same is true for Martin Luther, who staked his very life on the fact that we are saved by God's grace, and not our works. Various religions have been born based on the profoundly held convictions of their founders. All these founders could be considered 'specialists'. They have discovered a secret and based a religion on it because the Catholic Church was reluctant to change. Traditionalists have a terrible time accepting change.
Now, you could, if you wish, apply this to NewGuys theory, or to the Rapture theory - but you must also verify it against the Bible.
Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Matt. 24:14). The good news had been preached to all the world by the time the book of Romans and the book of Colossians were written in the first century. (Romans 10:18) “Their voice (the voice of those preaching the good news) has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world”. (Col. 1:23) “This...gospel...has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven”. And shortly after the good news was preached in the whole world in the first century, the end of the Old Testament world came in fiery judgment in A.D. 70, at the destruction of Christ’s enemies.
Thus the end of Biblical Judaism. Historical records support the tale of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The Jews no longer practice animal sacrifice because of this. Of course Jesus was the 'lamb', the ultimate sacrifice.
Now just like 'God's will - will be done' - I have another absolute. Jesus says this in Matthew 16:28: "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
What does this mean? I can think of only two questions at this point. Is it literal in the sense that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled this statement. Or is it true in the sense that Jesus' believers would see Jesus' kingdom after they themselves were dead and resurrected?
Traditionalists will rush to say - what about this and what about that - but they must face the possibility that Jesus actually meant what he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 12:20 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 26 2005, 09:11 PM)
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?! "Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.
Quite a rant by Newguy. Too bad he completely missed the point Einstein was trying to make. He was talking about religions which seek to justify themselves through the 'gaps' in science. Thus hiding in the shadows. Just as creationists do when trying to retro-fit scientific facts back into bible stories.
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?!
"Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.Quite a rant by Newguy. Too bad he completely missed the point Einstein was trying to make. He was talking about religions which seek to justify themselves through the 'gaps' in science. Thus hiding in the shadows. Just as creationists do when trying to retro-fit scientific facts back into bible stories.
Messenger.
Perhaps it would have been advisable to answer my above-last post after all, before you outlined your 'alternative' God's Kingdom 'view'; as the implication of my post is that there were likely to have been 'un-numbered' instances of people in HEAD-TRAUMA-INDUCED COMA 'DEATH' and HEART-ARYTHMIA-INDUCED COMA/'DEATH' 'resuurecting' either 'spontaneously' and during 'body handling' LONG BEFORE the instance of Jesus' 'resurrection' (which may in fact have merely been ANOTHER of these instances BEFORE, DURING and SINCE Jesus' so-called 'death' and 'holy resurrection'. You see the problem?. Your 'alternative' basically begins from your 'view' that Jesus Christ was THE FIRST EVER to be 'resurrected', as follows....
Perhaps it would have been advisable to answer my above-last post after all, before you outlined your 'alternative' God's Kingdom 'view'; as the implication of my post is that there were likely to have been 'un-numbered' instances of people in HEAD-TRAUMA-INDUCED COMA 'DEATH' and HEART-ARYTHMIA-INDUCED COMA/'DEATH' 'resuurecting' either 'spontaneously' and during 'body handling' LONG BEFORE the instance of Jesus' 'resurrection' (which may in fact have merely been ANOTHER of these instances BEFORE, DURING and SINCE Jesus' so-called 'death' and 'holy resurrection'. You see the problem?. Your 'alternative' basically begins from your 'view' that Jesus Christ was THE FIRST EVER to be 'resurrected', as follows....
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 29 2005, 06:26 AM)
An alternate view of God's Kingdom -
.....My views, after further study, are that God's Kingdom has already been established. Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection."
But the implication of my earlier post is that he was NOT in fact THE FIRST. If that is so, based on the knowledge and probabilities which my earlier post implied, then where does that leave the rest of your 'alternative view' based on that questionable premise?
RealityCheck.
.
.....My views, after further study, are that God's Kingdom has already been established. Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection."
But the implication of my earlier post is that he was NOT in fact THE FIRST. If that is so, based on the knowledge and probabilities which my earlier post implied, then where does that leave the rest of your 'alternative view' based on that questionable premise?
RealityCheck.
.
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 29 2005, 06:28 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 12:20 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 26 2005, 09:11 PM)
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?! "Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.
Quite a rant by Newguy. Too bad he completely missed the point Einstein was trying to make. He was talking about religions which seek to justify themselves through the 'gaps' in science. Thus hiding in the shadows. Just as creationists do when trying to retro-fit scientific facts back into bible stories.
Exactly.
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?!
"Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.Quite a rant by Newguy. Too bad he completely missed the point Einstein was trying to make. He was talking about religions which seek to justify themselves through the 'gaps' in science. Thus hiding in the shadows. Just as creationists do when trying to retro-fit scientific facts back into bible stories.
Exactly.
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 29 2005, 06:28 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 12:20 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 26 2005, 09:11 PM)
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?! "Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.
Quite a rant by Newguy. Too bad he completely missed the point Einstein was trying to make. He was talking about religions which seek to justify themselves through the 'gaps' in science. Thus hiding in the shadows. Just as creationists do when trying to retro-fit scientific facts back into bible stories.
Guest: First of all, that wasn't a "rant". It was an answer to MXWordNerd's request that I tell him what I thought of Einstein's quote. Second of all, since we're on the topic of who's "hiding in the shadows", I personally have no respect whatsoever for anyone who posts under the username "Guest". None. Zip. Nada. Zero. If you want to dialogue with me(unless you're scared), then give me some sort of identifying mark so I know who I'm talking to. Having said that, I went back and reread Einstein's quote after your response. Apparently Einstein was saying what you suggested. That being the case, I couldn't care less about "justifying myself through the gaps in science". My "justification" is found in Jesus Christ. Got it? Good. Now, if you want to be a good little boy/girl and let me know who you are, I'll be happy to dialogue with you further. If not, then enjoy "hiding in the shadows". Personally, I much prefer and enjoy "abiding in the Light".
MxWordNerd, the only way its impossible to know god is if there is no god at all. And this is something that can't be proven. I know how you feel on this subject, but you stated it once in detail, and now everytime newguy posts about his relationship with god you post a short post about it being impossible to know god. No offence, but thats incredibly childish, and annoying to keep reading over and over again. Newguy posts evidence that to him supports his relationship with god (existent or not, not our place to judge right?). He doesn't simple post "I know god" over and over again, but your posts against him are simply that. You can believe that Newguy doesn't know god, or disagree with him when he says he knows god, but making it an impossibility is something I doubt you can truly 'prove' or back up scientifically. A personal and spiritual relationship does not have to follow the same rigor as something scientific.
If you want to say "It is impossible for you to prove to me you know god" thats fine, but keep this line in mind.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
And then what?
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." -- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
MXWordNerd: Wow!!! Imagine if you called Albert from your cellphone?!? You'd use up all your minutes on one call!!! And people tell me they have a hard time understanding the Bible!?!
"Anthropomorphism"? MOMMY!!! Okay...Pretty much sounds like he's saying, in the beginning there, that as long as someone can explain things "naturally", then there's no need for the "supernatural". Well, of course this isn't so. One of the biggest "plagues", if I can use that term, to mankind is death. Now don't bother telling me that "science" isn't concerned with death as others have attempted to do. I DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR ONE NANOSECOND! "Scientists" are always claiming(it's been done on this forum) that Christians are merely afraid to accept the fact that they are going to die one day and that their genes are just going to go back into the gene pool. Seems to me that "scientists" are always trying to figure out "cures" for death. Freezing bodies until a "cure" can be found. Developing new medicines. Making pacemakers and the such. Etc., etc., etc. The only "cure" for death is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Period. And don't anyone bother answering me with an account of someone being "resuscitated". I'm talking "resurrection". "Science", and all its "natural laws", simply doesn't cut it. And, PLEASE, don't bother telling me about some "Christian" doctors. I've THOROUGHLY studied the origins of the medical profession and it is totally linked to witchcraft and pagan temples. Totally. It might interest you to know, maybe it won't, that I haven't taken so much as an aspirin for the last 17+ years. My God is perfectly able to keep me in good health. Albert said that "the doctrine of a personal God interfering('Interfering?!?' Should we 'throw a yellow flag' and penalize Him 10 yards?!?) with the natural events could never be refuted..." So far, so good. I'd like to see that message on the bottom of somebody's posts. Should have stopped there, Albert, but, alas, he didn't. Albert continued "in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress...." Here, it plainly seems to me, that Albert was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Out of one side of his mouth he accuses "religious" folks of "operating in the dark"(NOTHING could be further from the truth with a genuine Christian) while, at the same time, from the other side of his mouth he admits that this is an area where science "has not yet been able to set foot." Hmmmmm??? So let me see if I got this straight. According to Einstein(Maybe he was having a "bad hair day" when he said this...Oh, that's right, he always had a "bad hair day", didn't he?), the goal of "science" is to "step foot into the dark". Alrighty then!!! Look, let me be as serious as I can be. I have, as I've testified many times before in this forum, prayed for people in the name of Jesus Christ(in the "light", I might add, no "dark alleys" needed) and they have been instantaneously healed. I also have, as I've testified many times, cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions. I know of a certainty that several of the people that I've prayed for are still alive and well...would you like to speak to any of them? Don't bother telling me that I only "think" I know God. I know God. And, as I've said many times before, I don't say that flippantly. The God that I know has oftentimes chastened me for my own good. This isn't a game. Praying for someone in Jesus Christ's name and they're healed of cancer has "has lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Get a life, Albert! Praying for someone who had emphysema so bad that they could barely talk and watching them breathe just fine on their own after praying for them in Jesus Christ's name has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Might wanna go buy yourself a nice comb, Albert. You're "wigging out", man! Praying for my wife who had ovarian cancer and was told by doctors that her womb was facing the wrong way and that she could never have children and watching a tumor come out of her has "lost its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress"? Hey, Albert! Say it to my face, I dare you! I've got a two year old daughter and another child due any day now, "Einstein"! Now that's what I call "HUMAN PROGRESS!" The list could go on and on and on and on. Fasten your seatbelts...If this statement was "vintage Einstein", then Einstein was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT when it came to "spiritual matters" and he should have kept his big mouth shut! Oh, and by the way, the "doctrine" of Christ is NOT "fatal"...except for those, like Albert, who reject it. I have a genuine hope of eternal life because the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead resides in me. You can attempt to pass that off as mere "delusion" on my part, if you'd like, but it will never change the facts. Absolutely no need for me to be "emancipated" from this "personal hope". I'll stick with Jesus Christ until my dying breath. As the hymn writer said: "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back. No turning back." Well, you said you wanted a response to Albert's quote. There it is. I hope I answered your question. Sorry for the delay. I'm really trying to budget my time between work, personal matters and this forum. Talk to you later.Quite a rant by Newguy. Too bad he completely missed the point Einstein was trying to make. He was talking about religions which seek to justify themselves through the 'gaps' in science. Thus hiding in the shadows. Just as creationists do when trying to retro-fit scientific facts back into bible stories.
Guest: First of all, that wasn't a "rant". It was an answer to MXWordNerd's request that I tell him what I thought of Einstein's quote. Second of all, since we're on the topic of who's "hiding in the shadows", I personally have no respect whatsoever for anyone who posts under the username "Guest". None. Zip. Nada. Zero. If you want to dialogue with me(unless you're scared), then give me some sort of identifying mark so I know who I'm talking to. Having said that, I went back and reread Einstein's quote after your response. Apparently Einstein was saying what you suggested. That being the case, I couldn't care less about "justifying myself through the gaps in science". My "justification" is found in Jesus Christ. Got it? Good. Now, if you want to be a good little boy/girl and let me know who you are, I'll be happy to dialogue with you further. If not, then enjoy "hiding in the shadows". Personally, I much prefer and enjoy "abiding in the Light".
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 29 2005, 05:34 AM)
Hi all.
Can anyone reconcile all this 'resurrection' of 'believers' ONLY...and that such 'resurrection' will happen ONLY at 'the end' of this 'experiment' by god...with the reality?
I mean, every day around this planet, some christian/non-christian, some agnostic/atheist etc, will be 'resurrected' by a heart de-fibrillator or some CPR technique developed/applied by (again) christian/non-christian and agnostic/atheist lay citizen or professional medical scientist/worker.
That is, they were EFFECTIVELY DEAD if left to 'god's' mercy; but were 're-started' by HUMAN AGENCY and scientific instruments/techniques. And all of this HANGS on the LUCK of such a 'dead' person 'dying' in the right place at the right time with the right support/techniques within EFFECTIVE reach before IRREVERSIBLE 'death' and impossibility of 'resurrection' NOW and by HUMANS of all persuasions/creeds.
BTW, I don't wan't to confuse this RESURRECTION after 'death', with PREVENTION of death through timely intervention/advice etc...which is a whole OTHER 'lucky dip' question, hehehe.
Your thoughts, anyone?
RealityCheck.
.
RealityCheck: With all due respect, there is a world of difference between "resuscitation"(which is what you're describing) and "resurrection"(which is what the Bible and I am describing). Resurrection of the dead involves the "corruptible becoming incorruptible" and the "mortal becoming immortal"(I Corinthians 15:53-54). That is what I was referencing...not "resuscitation". Thanks.
Can anyone reconcile all this 'resurrection' of 'believers' ONLY...and that such 'resurrection' will happen ONLY at 'the end' of this 'experiment' by god...with the reality?
I mean, every day around this planet, some christian/non-christian, some agnostic/atheist etc, will be 'resurrected' by a heart de-fibrillator or some CPR technique developed/applied by (again) christian/non-christian and agnostic/atheist lay citizen or professional medical scientist/worker.
That is, they were EFFECTIVELY DEAD if left to 'god's' mercy; but were 're-started' by HUMAN AGENCY and scientific instruments/techniques. And all of this HANGS on the LUCK of such a 'dead' person 'dying' in the right place at the right time with the right support/techniques within EFFECTIVE reach before IRREVERSIBLE 'death' and impossibility of 'resurrection' NOW and by HUMANS of all persuasions/creeds.
BTW, I don't wan't to confuse this RESURRECTION after 'death', with PREVENTION of death through timely intervention/advice etc...which is a whole OTHER 'lucky dip' question, hehehe.
Your thoughts, anyone?
RealityCheck.
.
RealityCheck: With all due respect, there is a world of difference between "resuscitation"(which is what you're describing) and "resurrection"(which is what the Bible and I am describing). Resurrection of the dead involves the "corruptible becoming incorruptible" and the "mortal becoming immortal"(I Corinthians 15:53-54). That is what I was referencing...not "resuscitation". Thanks.
QUOTE
Yeah. It's impossible to know god, yet you say you DEFINITELY KNOW god.
This ought to be interesting...
This ought to be interesting...
MxWordNerd, the only way its impossible to know god is if there is no god at all. And this is something that can't be proven. I know how you feel on this subject, but you stated it once in detail, and now everytime newguy posts about his relationship with god you post a short post about it being impossible to know god. No offence, but thats incredibly childish, and annoying to keep reading over and over again. Newguy posts evidence that to him supports his relationship with god (existent or not, not our place to judge right?). He doesn't simple post "I know god" over and over again, but your posts against him are simply that. You can believe that Newguy doesn't know god, or disagree with him when he says he knows god, but making it an impossibility is something I doubt you can truly 'prove' or back up scientifically. A personal and spiritual relationship does not have to follow the same rigor as something scientific.
If you want to say "It is impossible for you to prove to me you know god" thats fine, but keep this line in mind.
On the subject of the resurrection ... from my limited study of the Bible, as far as I know, a Roman guard witnessed 'blood and water' (i.e. clotted blood and ... y'know ... the rest of it) coming out of a wound, indicating that death had occurred. Then there's the three days spent in a tomb before the apparent resurrection.
I don't know how valid the accounts are, but my understanding is he was pretty thoroughly dead.
I don't know how valid the accounts are, but my understanding is he was pretty thoroughly dead.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 27 2005, 10:40 PM)
... I am not spiritual. ...
Do you find it difficult to understand the word of God?
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (I Corinthians 2:14)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (II Timothy 3:16)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Do you find it difficult to understand the word of God?
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (I Corinthians 2:14)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (II Timothy 3:16)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Nov 21 2005, 09:35 PM)
Jerry: ... What did you mean when you said that God's first kind of ministers(preachers) "have no authority to kill unless they do it under the authority of ministers of the second kind."? ... The scriptures that you cited merely reflect that Jesus(the first kind of minister) didn't want Peter(also the first kind of minister) to kill Malchus(the second kind of minister). ...
You seem to have answered your own question. As you say, Jesus and Peter are ministers of the Gospel, and represent ministers of the first kind. Also, as you say, Malchus represents a second kind of minister of God, one acting under an authority which has authorized him to "bear the sword". If Malchus got saved, he could be both kinds of minister, albeit with difficulty.
What does this have to do with Salvation? I think it illustrates a principle, that those who are not in a right relationship with God cannot comprehend the Word of God. The plan of Salvation does not depend on our ability to understand words or ideas, it depends on the brokenness of our hearts. When we look at Jesus Christ, if we see a friend, God can draw us to himself and save us. If we see an enemy, we are lost; until we give up trying to find our way in the dark, and turn to the Light.
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Acts 28:26-27)
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:43-47)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
You seem to have answered your own question. As you say, Jesus and Peter are ministers of the Gospel, and represent ministers of the first kind. Also, as you say, Malchus represents a second kind of minister of God, one acting under an authority which has authorized him to "bear the sword". If Malchus got saved, he could be both kinds of minister, albeit with difficulty.
What does this have to do with Salvation? I think it illustrates a principle, that those who are not in a right relationship with God cannot comprehend the Word of God. The plan of Salvation does not depend on our ability to understand words or ideas, it depends on the brokenness of our hearts. When we look at Jesus Christ, if we see a friend, God can draw us to himself and save us. If we see an enemy, we are lost; until we give up trying to find our way in the dark, and turn to the Light.
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Acts 28:26-27)
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:43-47)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Nov 22 2005, 04:44 PM)
... scripture can be cited to show that Christ's inheritance is RIGHT HERE ON EARTH, why then are you expecting to "inherit" heaven as your final destination? Please answer that for me, if you will...
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)
It is not necessary for me to know every detail about my final destination. All I need to do is abide in Jesus Christ. Wherever he is, I will be there with him, forever.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20-26)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)
It is not necessary for me to know every detail about my final destination. All I need to do is abide in Jesus Christ. Wherever he is, I will be there with him, forever.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20-26)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
And then what?
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 29 2005, 01:48 PM)
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
So, How long were the dark ages?
So, How long were the dark ages?
All: Don't read anything into that last post of mine with just the emoticon...I was testing. I don't know if any of you were having trouble posting or not(it seems not), but this forum has been rejecting my posts for about the last two hours. Every time I hit "add reply", it wouldn't go through. I tried posting on several different threads with no avail. Oh, well.
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 04:05 PM)
All: Don't read anything into that last post of mine with just the emoticon...I was testing. I don't know if any of you were having trouble posting or not(it seems not), but this forum has been rejecting my posts for about the last two hours. Every time I hit "add reply", it wouldn't go through. I tried posting on several different threads with no avail. Oh, well.
Newguy,
Is somebody up there trying to tell you something
Sorry couldn't resist
Krreagan
Newguy,
Is somebody up there trying to tell you something
Sorry couldn't resist
Krreagan
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 29 2005, 08:48 PM)
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Nov 22 2005, 04:44 PM)
... scripture can be cited to show that Christ's inheritance is RIGHT HERE ON EARTH, why then are you expecting to "inherit" heaven as your final destination? Please answer that for me, if you will...
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)
It is not necessary for me to know every detail about my final destination. All I need to do is abide in Jesus Christ. Wherever he is, I will be there with him, forever.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20-26)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Jerry: You're right. There will be a 1000 year reign of Christ right here on the earth and then, as the scripture you listed in your post clearly states, there will be a new heavens and a new earth and the new Jerusalem will "come down from God out of heaven"(Revelation 21:2) and be here on the new earth. So in both cases, the believers are clearly residing on earth. I trust you see that. By the way, let me finish the one quote for you(it takes on a whole new meaning this way):
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."(I Corinthians 2:-13)
We can know the deep things of God by His Spirit and also teach them to others. When you only partially quoted the scripture, you gave the reader the exact opposite impression.
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)
It is not necessary for me to know every detail about my final destination. All I need to do is abide in Jesus Christ. Wherever he is, I will be there with him, forever.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20-26)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Jerry: You're right. There will be a 1000 year reign of Christ right here on the earth and then, as the scripture you listed in your post clearly states, there will be a new heavens and a new earth and the new Jerusalem will "come down from God out of heaven"(Revelation 21:2) and be here on the new earth. So in both cases, the believers are clearly residing on earth. I trust you see that. By the way, let me finish the one quote for you(it takes on a whole new meaning this way):
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."(I Corinthians 2:-13)
We can know the deep things of God by His Spirit and also teach them to others. When you only partially quoted the scripture, you gave the reader the exact opposite impression.
QUOTE (krreagan+Nov 29 2005, 11:14 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 04:05 PM)
All: Don't read anything into that last post of mine with just the emoticon...I was testing. I don't know if any of you were having trouble posting or not(it seems not), but this forum has been rejecting my posts for about the last two hours. Every time I hit "add reply", it wouldn't go through. I tried posting on several different threads with no avail. Oh, well.
Newguy,
Is somebody up there trying to tell you something
Sorry couldn't resist
Krreagan
krreagan: No problem. I kind of anticipated that someone might suggest that.
MxWordNerd, the only way its impossible to know god is if there is no god at all. And this is something that can't be proven. I know how you feel on this subject, but you stated it once in detail, and now everytime newguy posts about his relationship with god you post a short post about it being impossible to know god. No offence, but thats incredibly childish, and annoying to keep reading over and over again. Newguy posts evidence that to him supports his relationship with god (existent or not, not our place to judge right?). He doesn't simple post "I know god" over and over again, but your posts against him are simply that. You can believe that Newguy doesn't know god, or disagree with him when he says he knows god, but making it an impossibility is something I doubt you can truly 'prove' or back up scientifically. A personal and spiritual relationship does not have to follow the same rigor as something scientific.
If you want to say "It is impossible for you to prove to me you know god" thats fine, but keep this line in mind.
Believing is not knowing. They are different.
I'm still waiting for the proof of knowledge.
Newguy,
Is somebody up there trying to tell you something
Sorry couldn't resist
Krreagan
krreagan: No problem. I kind of anticipated that someone might suggest that.
QUOTE (Steveo+Nov 29 2005, 05:55 PM)
QUOTE
Yeah. It's impossible to know god, yet you say you DEFINITELY KNOW god.
This ought to be interesting...
This ought to be interesting...
MxWordNerd, the only way its impossible to know god is if there is no god at all. And this is something that can't be proven. I know how you feel on this subject, but you stated it once in detail, and now everytime newguy posts about his relationship with god you post a short post about it being impossible to know god. No offence, but thats incredibly childish, and annoying to keep reading over and over again. Newguy posts evidence that to him supports his relationship with god (existent or not, not our place to judge right?). He doesn't simple post "I know god" over and over again, but your posts against him are simply that. You can believe that Newguy doesn't know god, or disagree with him when he says he knows god, but making it an impossibility is something I doubt you can truly 'prove' or back up scientifically. A personal and spiritual relationship does not have to follow the same rigor as something scientific.
If you want to say "It is impossible for you to prove to me you know god" thats fine, but keep this line in mind.
Believing is not knowing. They are different.
I'm still waiting for the proof of knowledge.
MXWordNerd: Since you've read the Bible a couple of times, I'm sure you understand that I had multitudes of scriptures to choose from for the message on the bottom of my posts. I deliberately chose the following:
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
(John 17:3)
The word that is translated as "know" is the Greek word "ginosko" which carries the connotation of "knowing intimately", oftentimes as in a man "knowing" his wife through sexual union. It is a state in which the "two become one", with the "one" implying "united".
Here are a few quick Biblical examples where this "oneness" is seen.
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."(Genesis 2:24)
Two can be "one".
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."(I John 5:7)
Three can be "one".
"And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."(Genesis 11:5-6)
A large group of people can be "one".
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."(John 17:20-23)
Jesus prayed that all believers in Him would be "one". This "oneness" would only be made possible by Christ being in us. How would Christ indwell His people?
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."(John 14:16-20)
When I genuinely repented of my sins and received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, God did just what He promised He would do. He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell inside of me and I became "born again", spiritually speaking. Let me interject something quickly here in regards to the importance of repentance. One day when I was driving from New Jersey to Pennsylvania on a very cloudy day, I was meditating on several different "Christians"(in quotes deliberately) that I personally knew who were constantly telling me that God never speaks to them and that He never reveals Himself to them. This troubled me because I knew that God spoke to me quite often and that God promised that He is no respecter of persons...in other words, He'll do for one what He does for another. As I was pondering this, the Spirit of God spoke to me and said(I'm paraphrasing): "It would be foolish to pray for the sun to come out. The sun is already out. It would be wise to pray for the clouds to be removed." Immediately, by the grace of God, I understood what God was saying to me. It wasn't that God wasn't speaking to these people. It was that these people refused to remove the things that were blocking them from God(i.e. SIN). Over the course of the next few months, God allowed me to see how he was trying to reach these same individuals but they simply refused to do what He was showing them to do(i.e. REPENT!). It wasn't that God wasn't speaking to them. They simply didn't like what He was saying. Could this be the true reason why many on this forum don't "know" God? I'll get letters for that. Good. Bring them. The Spirit of God literally dwells within me. It is this indwelling Spirit who takes from the Father and from Jesus and reveals unto me(John 16:13-15) and who gives me the power to live a Holy life. I do have fellowship with God continually due to the fact that He dwells within me in the Person of the Holy Spirit. I have become "one spirit with the Lord".
"But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."(I Corinthians 6:17)
The Bible has a lot to say about marriage, both in the natural sense and the spiritual sense. Spiritually speaking, God often refers to Himself as either husband or bridegroom whereas His people are referred to as His wife or bride. Spiritually speaking, I have entered into a marriage covenant with the Lord and have become "one" with Him by the power of His indwelling Spirit. Practically speaking, how has this affected my life? Well, first of all, as I've often testified, I do have "communion" or "fellowship" with God which is oftentimes in the form of correction. As I've said before, He's not called the "Holy" Spirit for nothing. God's desire is that His people be holy as He is holy. Order the straight jacket if you'd like, but God speaks to me on a fairly regular basis...probably more regularly than I even realize...sometimes I'm momentarily "dull of hearing". Most of this speaking is "Spirit to spirit" or more of an inward voice. I don't really know how else to describe it, but I have oftentimes heard the voice of the Spirit of God from within me. I have also personally heard God's audible voice once...I was headed in such a wrong direction(within the confines of church, I might add) that God had to really get a hold of my attention. I have had "visions" several times...again, most of them were in the area of personal correction, and I have had God speak to me indirectly through other people at times who would have had no way naturally of knowing what was going on in my life or what I had been praying for. I'm talking in generalities now...I will be more specific and give genuine examples of what I'm speaking about, if you so desire. I have also prayed for people, myself included, in Jesus Christ's name on a multitude of different occasions that have been instantaneously healed of a vast variety of diseases or ailments. And, last, but certainly not least, I have cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions with immediate, long-lasting, positive results. I don't just "think I know God" or just "believe I know God"...I KNOW GOD and this, according to Jesus Christ, "is life eternal". Most of these things that I'm describing are simply a part of my every day life and I've been legitimately experiencing these things for some 17+ years. I've spoken very vaguely...pick a point and I'll gladly elaborate on it. I'm sorry that this is all that I can say for today. As I stated earlier, for some unknown reason, this forum wasn't allowing me to "add replies" for about a two hour span earlier today. That, unfortunately was when I had the most time to post. Hope this does for now. I'll gladly answer any further questions.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
(John 17:3)
The word that is translated as "know" is the Greek word "ginosko" which carries the connotation of "knowing intimately", oftentimes as in a man "knowing" his wife through sexual union. It is a state in which the "two become one", with the "one" implying "united".
Here are a few quick Biblical examples where this "oneness" is seen.
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."(Genesis 2:24)
Two can be "one".
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."(I John 5:7)
Three can be "one".
"And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."(Genesis 11:5-6)
A large group of people can be "one".
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."(John 17:20-23)
Jesus prayed that all believers in Him would be "one". This "oneness" would only be made possible by Christ being in us. How would Christ indwell His people?
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."(John 14:16-20)
When I genuinely repented of my sins and received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, God did just what He promised He would do. He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell inside of me and I became "born again", spiritually speaking. Let me interject something quickly here in regards to the importance of repentance. One day when I was driving from New Jersey to Pennsylvania on a very cloudy day, I was meditating on several different "Christians"(in quotes deliberately) that I personally knew who were constantly telling me that God never speaks to them and that He never reveals Himself to them. This troubled me because I knew that God spoke to me quite often and that God promised that He is no respecter of persons...in other words, He'll do for one what He does for another. As I was pondering this, the Spirit of God spoke to me and said(I'm paraphrasing): "It would be foolish to pray for the sun to come out. The sun is already out. It would be wise to pray for the clouds to be removed." Immediately, by the grace of God, I understood what God was saying to me. It wasn't that God wasn't speaking to these people. It was that these people refused to remove the things that were blocking them from God(i.e. SIN). Over the course of the next few months, God allowed me to see how he was trying to reach these same individuals but they simply refused to do what He was showing them to do(i.e. REPENT!). It wasn't that God wasn't speaking to them. They simply didn't like what He was saying. Could this be the true reason why many on this forum don't "know" God? I'll get letters for that. Good. Bring them. The Spirit of God literally dwells within me. It is this indwelling Spirit who takes from the Father and from Jesus and reveals unto me(John 16:13-15) and who gives me the power to live a Holy life. I do have fellowship with God continually due to the fact that He dwells within me in the Person of the Holy Spirit. I have become "one spirit with the Lord".
"But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."(I Corinthians 6:17)
The Bible has a lot to say about marriage, both in the natural sense and the spiritual sense. Spiritually speaking, God often refers to Himself as either husband or bridegroom whereas His people are referred to as His wife or bride. Spiritually speaking, I have entered into a marriage covenant with the Lord and have become "one" with Him by the power of His indwelling Spirit. Practically speaking, how has this affected my life? Well, first of all, as I've often testified, I do have "communion" or "fellowship" with God which is oftentimes in the form of correction. As I've said before, He's not called the "Holy" Spirit for nothing. God's desire is that His people be holy as He is holy. Order the straight jacket if you'd like, but God speaks to me on a fairly regular basis...probably more regularly than I even realize...sometimes I'm momentarily "dull of hearing". Most of this speaking is "Spirit to spirit" or more of an inward voice. I don't really know how else to describe it, but I have oftentimes heard the voice of the Spirit of God from within me. I have also personally heard God's audible voice once...I was headed in such a wrong direction(within the confines of church, I might add) that God had to really get a hold of my attention. I have had "visions" several times...again, most of them were in the area of personal correction, and I have had God speak to me indirectly through other people at times who would have had no way naturally of knowing what was going on in my life or what I had been praying for. I'm talking in generalities now...I will be more specific and give genuine examples of what I'm speaking about, if you so desire. I have also prayed for people, myself included, in Jesus Christ's name on a multitude of different occasions that have been instantaneously healed of a vast variety of diseases or ailments. And, last, but certainly not least, I have cast out "demons" or "evil spirits" in Jesus Christ's name on more than one thousand different occasions with immediate, long-lasting, positive results. I don't just "think I know God" or just "believe I know God"...I KNOW GOD and this, according to Jesus Christ, "is life eternal". Most of these things that I'm describing are simply a part of my every day life and I've been legitimately experiencing these things for some 17+ years. I've spoken very vaguely...pick a point and I'll gladly elaborate on it. I'm sorry that this is all that I can say for today. As I stated earlier, for some unknown reason, this forum wasn't allowing me to "add replies" for about a two hour span earlier today. That, unfortunately was when I had the most time to post. Hope this does for now. I'll gladly answer any further questions.
"Do you know god?" wasn't the question.
The question was "Do you know god exists?"
I appreciate all of what you wrote there, and I understand your belief that it's true. Apparently you misunderstood the observation, though. It's not that you don't know your god - the one in the bible. It's that you don't know god exists. You BELIEVE you know god exists.
Understand?
The question was "Do you know god exists?"
I appreciate all of what you wrote there, and I understand your belief that it's true. Apparently you misunderstood the observation, though. It's not that you don't know your god - the one in the bible. It's that you don't know god exists. You BELIEVE you know god exists.
Understand?
Newguy your last post takes guts and I have to say my hat is off to you for putting intimate personal beliefs in the public arena is very commendable.
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 30 2005, 03:18 AM)
"Do you know god?" wasn't the question.
The question was "Do you know god exists?"
I appreciate all of what you wrote there, and I understand your belief that it's true. Apparently you misunderstood the observation, though. It's not that you don't know your god - the one in the bible. It's that you don't know god exists. You BELIEVE you know god exists.
Understand?
MXWordNerd: I'm getting ready to leave for work, so I'll just give a quick response now. No, I don't understand. How could you possibly allow that I genuinely know my God and at the same time deny that I know that He exists? The "demons"(no offense Demon77) are subject unto me in Jesus Christ's name. If Jesus didn't genuinely exist, the "demons" wouldn't be coming out. If Jesus Christ didn't genuinely exist, the people that I've been praying for in His name(myself included) wouldn't genuinely be getting healed. So no, I don't understand. Please explain. Talk to you later.
The question was "Do you know god exists?"
I appreciate all of what you wrote there, and I understand your belief that it's true. Apparently you misunderstood the observation, though. It's not that you don't know your god - the one in the bible. It's that you don't know god exists. You BELIEVE you know god exists.
Understand?
MXWordNerd: I'm getting ready to leave for work, so I'll just give a quick response now. No, I don't understand. How could you possibly allow that I genuinely know my God and at the same time deny that I know that He exists? The "demons"(no offense Demon77) are subject unto me in Jesus Christ's name. If Jesus didn't genuinely exist, the "demons" wouldn't be coming out. If Jesus Christ didn't genuinely exist, the people that I've been praying for in His name(myself included) wouldn't genuinely be getting healed. So no, I don't understand. Please explain. Talk to you later.
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 05:50 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 30 2005, 03:18 AM)
"Do you know god?" wasn't the question.
The question was "Do you know god exists?"
I appreciate all of what you wrote there, and I understand your belief that it's true. Apparently you misunderstood the observation, though. It's not that you don't know your god - the one in the bible. It's that you don't know god exists. You BELIEVE you know god exists.
Understand?
MXWordNerd: I'm getting ready to leave for work, so I'll just give a quick response now. No, I don't understand. How could you possibly allow that I genuinely know my God and at the same time deny that I know that He exists? The "demons"(no offense Demon77) are subject unto me in Jesus Christ's name. If Jesus didn't genuinely exist, the "demons" wouldn't be coming out. If Jesus Christ didn't genuinely exist, the people that I've been praying for in His name(myself included) wouldn't genuinely be getting healed. So no, I don't understand. Please explain. Talk to you later.
Newguy,
My $0.02US
The power of the human mind is very great. Much more then most would admit!
I would say that you have a very active (sub?)-conscious mind or "inner voice" (as some call it), that has done very well in helping guide your life. I would however not agree that god is this inner voice(as I don't believe). Our sub conscious mind has a great deal of influence over our conscious minds, more in some people and less then others.
Does everything that you pray for come to pass? The reason I ask is my in-laws pray many times a day genuinely for very good causes (finding a child that has been lost, helping a friend who is in the hospital...) They will claim that that their (and others) prayers are the reason that the child is found, or the friend gets well... (I have even been the "target" of these prayers when I had a herniated disk in my back that was very painful that was cured by surgery, not prayer). But they will have nothing to say if the child is not found or the friend does not get well. My observation (and I have stated similarly in other threads) is that when prayers don't have the desired effect, the events are put aside by our minds, while the ones "that work" are kept at the forfront and used to bolster beliefs.
I would agree with MX that knowing god and knowing that god exists are two different things. You have (in your mind) a clear and beneficial relationship with god (from your post), but that is a spiritual (in the mind) knolledge and cannot be used to know that god exists outside your mind. You may have a strong belief that he/she exists but that is part of your belief structure and is not "knowing". God (the concept) exists, but he/she does not exist as an entity.
I thoroughly expect you to disagree with me!
Krreagan
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
And then what?
The day of judgment for the ungodly and a new heaven and a new earth "wherin dwelleth righteousness".
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 20:11 - 21:8)
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (II Peter 3:7-14)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
The question was "Do you know god exists?"
I appreciate all of what you wrote there, and I understand your belief that it's true. Apparently you misunderstood the observation, though. It's not that you don't know your god - the one in the bible. It's that you don't know god exists. You BELIEVE you know god exists.
Understand?
MXWordNerd: I'm getting ready to leave for work, so I'll just give a quick response now. No, I don't understand. How could you possibly allow that I genuinely know my God and at the same time deny that I know that He exists? The "demons"(no offense Demon77) are subject unto me in Jesus Christ's name. If Jesus didn't genuinely exist, the "demons" wouldn't be coming out. If Jesus Christ didn't genuinely exist, the people that I've been praying for in His name(myself included) wouldn't genuinely be getting healed. So no, I don't understand. Please explain. Talk to you later.
Newguy,
My $0.02US
The power of the human mind is very great. Much more then most would admit!
I would say that you have a very active (sub?)-conscious mind or "inner voice" (as some call it), that has done very well in helping guide your life. I would however not agree that god is this inner voice(as I don't believe). Our sub conscious mind has a great deal of influence over our conscious minds, more in some people and less then others.
Does everything that you pray for come to pass? The reason I ask is my in-laws pray many times a day genuinely for very good causes (finding a child that has been lost, helping a friend who is in the hospital...) They will claim that that their (and others) prayers are the reason that the child is found, or the friend gets well... (I have even been the "target" of these prayers when I had a herniated disk in my back that was very painful that was cured by surgery, not prayer). But they will have nothing to say if the child is not found or the friend does not get well. My observation (and I have stated similarly in other threads) is that when prayers don't have the desired effect, the events are put aside by our minds, while the ones "that work" are kept at the forfront and used to bolster beliefs.
I would agree with MX that knowing god and knowing that god exists are two different things. You have (in your mind) a clear and beneficial relationship with god (from your post), but that is a spiritual (in the mind) knolledge and cannot be used to know that god exists outside your mind. You may have a strong belief that he/she exists but that is part of your belief structure and is not "knowing". God (the concept) exists, but he/she does not exist as an entity.
I thoroughly expect you to disagree with me!
Krreagan
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 29 2005, 09:10 PM)
QUOTE
There will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. After that the heavens and the earth as we know them will be destroyed.
And then what?
The day of judgment for the ungodly and a new heaven and a new earth "wherin dwelleth righteousness".
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 20:11 - 21:8)
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (II Peter 3:7-14)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
krreagan: Believe it or not, I don't "thoroughly" disagree with you on one point which I'll get to in a minute. As far as "knowing God" is concerned...This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the power of my mind. Did the power of my mind cause a tumor to come out of my wife in front of my eyes, her eyes and a friend of ours' eyes? Did the power of my mind cause fevers to immediately leave people when I laid hands on them and prayed for them in Jesus Christ's name? Did the power of my mind heal a man of emphysema that ran in his family for years? Look, I know I'm giving the same 3 or 4 examples repeatedly, but I can literally give you hundreds of different examples. As I said to MXWordNerd, this is simply a part of my every day life and has been for the last 17+ years. I'm probably going to have to give my testimony pretty soon about how I even got involved in the "casting out of demons" ministry in the first place. I've seen and experienced a vast multitude of things that have absolutely nothing to do with the power of my mind. Anyway, here's what I partially agree with you on. I know firsthand that there are multitudes of people who simply "put things aside in their minds" when their "prayers aren't answered". Remember, I travelled EXTENSIVELY(like 5 days a week for 12 years) in "Christian"(in quotes deliberately) circles. I've, pretty much, seen it all. I've met thousands of "Christians" whose "god"(little "g" deliberate) "heals" through doctors. Their prayers go something like this: "God, please guide the hand of the doctor and nurses while they saw uncle Billy's leg off..." Then, when uncle Billy dies: "Well, he's in a better place now, praise God." That's NOT God at all. God doesn't need doctors now, nor did He ever. If you've read enough of my posts on this forum, then you know that my contention has been from the "get go" that vast multitudes of professing "Christians" are NOT Christians at all. I stick with the Word of the Lord and with the Lord Himself. My faith is not in the least bit based upon what is being done by those who profess to know God. If it was, quite frankly and honestly, my faith would have been shipwrecked many years ago. As I've said, I've pretty much seen it all and most of what I've seen is an "ABOMINATION!". If it hadn't been for God's direct intervention in my life at many critical stages, I would have abandoned the Christian faith a long time ago. I personally have never had trouble with God answering my prayers. Let me qualify this. Sometimes, which is something that most "Christians" seem to have a big problem with, God simply says "NO!". That's one reason why some people's prayers seemingly aren't answered. In addition, prayer is NOT witchcraft or some magic spell. For example, when praying for others, the other person's will is unavoidably involved. Contrary to the garbage that "MessengerofSatan" has been spewing, God doesn't override anyone's will. If "MessengerofSatan" really believed his/her own garbage, then why doesn't he/she just pray: "God, please save everyone on the physorg.com forum. Amen." and be gone?!? You have a free will, as do I, and I could pray whatever I want for you until I'm blue in the face but if it's against your will, then God simply won't budge, nor should He. I've testified a few times about my many "successes", let me briefly tell you of one(one of only two) of my seeming "failures". When I first turned to Christ, I started attending a supposed "Full Gospel Church". One of the parishioners that I befriended, who was involved in every sort of "ministry" that you could imagine, had a stroke several years ago. The church basically abandoned her. Including the pastor, the pastor's wife, the 4 or 5 associate pastors and their wives, the elders, and members of the congregation, she got about 3 visits combined(only one of them was from the "leadership of the church"). She was more "one" with her church and her pastor than she was "one" with God. I visited her repeatedly in the nursing home(I had already "shaken the dust off of my feet as a testimony against" that church by this time) and tried to convince her for years(literally) that God could heal her. In her mind she was totally convinced that, because her pastor had cast her off(this is the same "man of God" who shoved me up against a wall and made an ethnic slur against me for simply asking him a question), that God Himself had cast her off. She finally allowed me to pray for her once(after years of convincing), and I did and nothing happened. She told me immediately that she knew that nothing would happen and she never believed that it would because she was "cut off". That is an example of another person's will being involved. Anyway, I KNOW GOD. Any one of you can too. If you're but willing to come to Him through His prescribed way. Later...
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 28 2005, 03:53 PM)
... A long time ago I came to the conclusion that there is no evidence for an afterlife of any kind. ...
Eyewitness testimony (evidence):
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (I John 1:1-3)
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:24-31)
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Acts 4:33)
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (I John 1:1-3)
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:24-31)
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Acts 4:33)
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 29 2005, 05:56 PM)
On the subject of the resurrection ... from my limited study of the Bible, as far as I know, a Roman guard witnessed 'blood and water' (i.e. clotted blood and ... y'know ... the rest of it) coming out of a wound, indicating that death had occurred. Then there's the three days spent in a tomb before the apparent resurrection.
I don't know how valid the accounts are, but my understanding is he was pretty thoroughly dead.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. And after this Joseph of Arimathæa, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. (John 19:33-40)
Gospel of John
I don't know how valid the accounts are, but my understanding is he was pretty thoroughly dead.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. And after this Joseph of Arimathæa, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. (John 19:33-40)
Gospel of John
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 11:29 PM)
... We can know the deep things of God by His Spirit and also teach them to others. ...
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (I Corinthians 8:2-3)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (I Corinthians 8:2-3)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 30 2005, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 28 2005, 03:53 PM)
... A long time ago I came to the conclusion that there is no evidence for an afterlife of any kind. ...
Eyewitness testimony (evidence):
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (I John 1:1-3)
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:24-31)
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Acts 4:33)
Hearsay... written many years after the "fact" by authors unknown. (Just call me a doubting Thomas.)
Not to mention that none of these passages refer to an afterlife.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (I John 1:1-3)
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:24-31)
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Acts 4:33)
Hearsay... written many years after the "fact" by authors unknown. (Just call me a doubting Thomas.)
Not to mention that none of these passages refer to an afterlife.
The reliability eyewitness testimony is shakey at the best of times ... and God knows what John was smoking when he wrote that! (joke) (well, the second bit)
Jerry - thanks for posting the quote about 'blood and water'. See, 12 years of religious education has finally paid off!
Jerry - thanks for posting the quote about 'blood and water'. See, 12 years of religious education has finally paid off!
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 09:44 AM)
krreagan: Believe it or not, I don't "thoroughly" disagree with you on one point which I'll get to in a minute. As far as "knowing God" is concerned...This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the power of my mind. Did the power of my mind cause a tumor to come out of my wife in front of my eyes, her eyes and a friend of ours' eyes? Did the power of my mind cause fevers to immediately leave people when I laid hands on them and prayed for them in Jesus Christ's name? Did the power of my mind heal a man of emphysema that ran in his family for years? Look, I know I'm giving the same 3 or 4 examples repeatedly, but I can literally give you hundreds of different examples. As I said to MXWordNerd, this is simply a part of my every day life and has been for the last 17+ years. I'm probably going to have to give my testimony pretty soon about how I even got involved in the "casting out of demons" ministry in the first place. I've seen and experienced a vast multitude of things that have absolutely nothing to do with the power of my mind. Anyway, here's what I partially agree with you on. I know firsthand that there are multitudes of people who simply "put things aside in their minds" when their "prayers aren't answered". Remember, I travelled EXTENSIVELY(like 5 days a week for 12 years) in "Christian"(in quotes deliberately) circles. I've, pretty much, seen it all. I've met thousands of "Christians" whose "god"(little "g" deliberate) "heals" through doctors. Their prayers go something like this: "God, please guide the hand of the doctor and nurses while they saw uncle Billy's leg off..." Then, when uncle Billy dies: "Well, he's in a better place now, praise God." That's NOT God at all. God doesn't need doctors now, nor did He ever. If you've read enough of my posts on this forum, then you know that my contention has been from the "get go" that vast multitudes of professing "Christians" are NOT Christians at all. I stick with the Word of the Lord and with the Lord Himself. My faith is not in the least bit based upon what is being done by those who profess to know God. If it was, quite frankly and honestly, my faith would have been shipwrecked many years ago. As I've said, I've pretty much seen it all and most of what I've seen is an "ABOMINATION!". If it hadn't been for God's direct intervention in my life at many critical stages, I would have abandoned the Christian faith a long time ago. I personally have never had trouble with God answering my prayers. Let me qualify this. Sometimes, which is something that most "Christians" seem to have a big problem with, God simply says "NO!". That's one reason why some people's prayers seemingly aren't answered. In addition, prayer is NOT witchcraft or some magic spell. For example, when praying for others, the other person's will is unavoidably involved. Contrary to the garbage that "MessengerofSatan" has been spewing, God doesn't override anyone's will. If "MessengerofSatan" really believed his/her own garbage, then why doesn't he/she just pray: "God, please save everyone on the physorg.com forum. Amen." and be gone?!? You have a free will, as do I, and I could pray whatever I want for you until I'm blue in the face but if it's against your will, then God simply won't budge, nor should He. I've testified a few times about my many "successes", let me briefly tell you of one(one of only two) of my seeming "failures". When I first turned to Christ, I started attending a supposed "Full Gospel Church". One of the parishioners that I befriended, who was involved in every sort of "ministry" that you could imagine, had a stroke several years ago. The church basically abandoned her. Including the pastor, the pastor's wife, the 4 or 5 associate pastors and their wives, the elders, and members of the congregation, she got about 3 visits combined(only one of them was from the "leadership of the church"). She was more "one" with her church and her pastor than she was "one" with God. I visited her repeatedly in the nursing home(I had already "shaken the dust off of my feet as a testimony against" that church by this time) and tried to convince her for years(literally) that God could heal her. In her mind she was totally convinced that, because her pastor had cast her off(this is the same "man of God" who shoved me up against a wall and made an ethnic slur against me for simply asking him a question), that God Himself had cast her off. She finally allowed me to pray for her once(after years of convincing), and I did and nothing happened. She told me immediately that she knew that nothing would happen and she never believed that it would because she was "cut off". That is an example of another person's will being involved. Anyway, I KNOW GOD. Any one of you can too. If you're but willing to come to Him through His prescribed way. Later...
Newguy,
Thanks for the very detailed responce. This does not change (and in fact reinforces) my thoughts on the power of the mind argument. The events that you witnessed would have occurred regardless of your prayer, at least in the god getting involved aspect. The mind can influence ones physical health a great deal and the very intense praying by the subject themselves probably had some positive effect on the situation, especially if they were convinced (as your were) that the prayer was going to help. But I don't believe they caused the events.
But you still don't _know_ god exists!
Krreagan
Newguy,
Thanks for the very detailed responce. This does not change (and in fact reinforces) my thoughts on the power of the mind argument. The events that you witnessed would have occurred regardless of your prayer, at least in the god getting involved aspect. The mind can influence ones physical health a great deal and the very intense praying by the subject themselves probably had some positive effect on the situation, especially if they were convinced (as your were) that the prayer was going to help. But I don't believe they caused the events.
QUOTE
Anyway, I KNOW GOD.
But you still don't _know_ god exists!
Krreagan
krreagan: Thanks for sharing your "thoughts" and "beliefs". However, as much as I genuinely appreciate your input, nothing you have said has changed "the facts"...including "the fact" that I know God exists. I'll continue to do just what Jesus Christ has instructed me to do until my dying breath or until His return(whichever comes first) and I know that He will continue to confirm His word with signs following(Mark 16:20), just like He promised He would. Have a good one.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 30 2005, 05:35 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 11:29 PM)
... We can know the deep things of God by His Spirit and also teach them to others. ...
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (I Corinthians 8:2-3)
JerryDuke: Oh, Jerry. Not you, too. And you were doing so well. What happened? This is getting sooooo tiring. Here's your latest "misquote" in context.
"Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. As concerning therefore the eating of things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."(I Corinthians 8:1-13)
The Apostle Paul was clearly addressing Christians that had the "knowledge" that there is really only one true God and therefore, with this "knowledge", could still give thanks to the one true God while eating something that was offered in sacrifice to idols. However, since not every Christian had this same "knowledge", the one who was weaker in the faith might view the one who was stronger in the faith eating something sacrificed to idols and might "unknowingly" think then that it was okay to eat things that are actually sacrificed to idols. This is what Paul was addressing. The one who was stronger in the faith and said "My knowledge allows me to eat this" and didn't care how his "knowledge" might affect someone who didn't have that same "knowledge", in effect, "knew nothing yet as he ought to know" because he wasn't "walking in love" and didn't care how his actions might negatively affect his brother. Got it? If not, I'll gladly provide you with other portions of scripture that address this very same issue. This verse that you quoted has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the verse that I quoted you. If this was supposed to be a refutation of what I wrote, then it was the most PATHETIC refutation I've ever seen. I thought you knew better than this. Perhaps I'd better reevaluate my previously held opinions of you. I hope this was a temporary "slip" on your part and that you see the obvious folly of your response.
NOTE TO ALL OF THE "CHRISTIANS" ON THIS FORUM:
If you really want to see me die a premature death, then please, I would much prefer that you just walked up to me and "blew my brains out" than to have to slowly die of a broken heart as a direct result of reading your posts.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (I Corinthians 8:2-3)
JerryDuke: Oh, Jerry. Not you, too. And you were doing so well. What happened? This is getting sooooo tiring. Here's your latest "misquote" in context.
"Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. As concerning therefore the eating of things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."(I Corinthians 8:1-13)
The Apostle Paul was clearly addressing Christians that had the "knowledge" that there is really only one true God and therefore, with this "knowledge", could still give thanks to the one true God while eating something that was offered in sacrifice to idols. However, since not every Christian had this same "knowledge", the one who was weaker in the faith might view the one who was stronger in the faith eating something sacrificed to idols and might "unknowingly" think then that it was okay to eat things that are actually sacrificed to idols. This is what Paul was addressing. The one who was stronger in the faith and said "My knowledge allows me to eat this" and didn't care how his "knowledge" might affect someone who didn't have that same "knowledge", in effect, "knew nothing yet as he ought to know" because he wasn't "walking in love" and didn't care how his actions might negatively affect his brother. Got it? If not, I'll gladly provide you with other portions of scripture that address this very same issue. This verse that you quoted has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the verse that I quoted you. If this was supposed to be a refutation of what I wrote, then it was the most PATHETIC refutation I've ever seen. I thought you knew better than this. Perhaps I'd better reevaluate my previously held opinions of you. I hope this was a temporary "slip" on your part and that you see the obvious folly of your response.
NOTE TO ALL OF THE "CHRISTIANS" ON THIS FORUM:
If you really want to see me die a premature death, then please, I would much prefer that you just walked up to me and "blew my brains out" than to have to slowly die of a broken heart as a direct result of reading your posts.
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM)
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Nov 21 2005, 09:35 PM)
Jerry: ... What did you mean when you said that God's first kind of ministers(preachers) "have no authority to kill unless they do it under the authority of ministers of the second kind."? ... The scriptures that you cited merely reflect that Jesus(the first kind of minister) didn't want Peter(also the first kind of minister) to kill Malchus(the second kind of minister). ...
You seem to have answered your own question. ...
Further to the answer to this that I posted yesterday, the reason for the original post was to point out that killing is not a function of Christianity. Killing is the way of this world, not of the kingdom of heaven and the ministry of Jesus Christ.
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messen·gers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:51-56)
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
You seem to have answered your own question. ...
Further to the answer to this that I posted yesterday, the reason for the original post was to point out that killing is not a function of Christianity. Killing is the way of this world, not of the kingdom of heaven and the ministry of Jesus Christ.
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messen·gers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:51-56)
Jerry: Please let me remind you that it was Steveo who asked me to refute what you wrote about the two different kinds of ministers. I offered a possible explanation to what you wrote and was merely trying to get you to tell me/us if my explanation was correct. I know that Christians aren't supposed to be killing. Now, I'm curious as to your response to my last post before this one???
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 06:33 PM)
krreagan: Thanks for sharing your "thoughts" and "beliefs". However, as much as I genuinely appreciate your input, nothing you have said has changed "the facts"...including "the fact" that I know God exists. I'll continue to do just what Jesus Christ has instructed me to do until my dying breath or until His return(whichever comes first) and I know that He will continue to confirm His word with signs following(Mark 16:20), just like He promised He would. Have a good one.
Sorry, but you don't. You have knowledge of the god you believe in. In other words, you know how he works, etc., according to your bible.
That does not mean you know he exists. You BELIEVE this god exists.
All of the "Nuh uh!" arguments you have can't change that.
And herein lies the main problem with creationists. They don't know the difference between knowledge and belief. Somewhere in their brain the wires are crossed.
I know my dog brown. I believe my dog is stupid.
Sorry, but you don't. You have knowledge of the god you believe in. In other words, you know how he works, etc., according to your bible.
That does not mean you know he exists. You BELIEVE this god exists.
All of the "Nuh uh!" arguments you have can't change that.
And herein lies the main problem with creationists. They don't know the difference between knowledge and belief. Somewhere in their brain the wires are crossed.
I know my dog brown. I believe my dog is stupid.
MXWordNerd: Any time you want to speak to some of the people who have been healed or delivered in Jesus Christ's name, you just let me know. They'll laugh you to scorn. Have a good one.
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 12:41 AM)
MXWordNerd: Any time you want to speak to some of the people who have been healed or delivered in Jesus Christ's name, you just let me know. They'll laugh you to scorn. Have a good one.
Seems like the Christian thing to do...
Seems like the Christian thing to do...
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 05:41 PM)
MXWordNerd: Any time you want to speak to some of the people who have been healed or delivered in Jesus Christ's name, you just let me know. They'll laugh you to scorn. Have a good one.
Newguy,
What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? How are all these people delusional but not you?
Krreagan
Newguy,
What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? How are all these people delusional but not you?
Krreagan
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 09:45 PM)
Jerry: ... Now, I'm curious as to your response to my last post before this one???
I will attempt to respond on two points.
1. I believe that the two general statements about knowledge and knowing, "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know," apply to everything, not just to the eating of flesh; however, I would not attempt to impose my understanding on anyone else. There is always room for my understanding to be increased.
I believe that holding knowledge in a tentative fashion is imperative. If someone asks me, "What do you know?" I usually respond with, "I know that I'm safe with Jesus Christ." The knowledge of my relationship with Jesus Christ, and his faithfulness, are the solid rock upon which my life is built. Without Christ, I am nothing. Even though I know Jesus Christ, my knowledge of him can always be increased. I do not yet know him on the same level that he knows me, but someday I know that I will.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:12)
In all things, I believe that the Old and New Testaments constitute the only Divine rule of Christian faith and practice. I would not hold that my own understanding of anything rises to the same level of knowledge as the Scripture.
When I quote specific verses of the Bible, my intent is to address specific points concisely and with as much relevance as is possible. By giving the book, chapter and verse references, the reader can then refer to the full context of the verses as needed. I sometimes include a link to the whole chapter or the whole book.
2. If participating in these forums is very distressing to you, perhaps you should give it a rest, for the well-being of yourself, your family and others to whom you wish to minister.
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Philippians 4:5)
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. (II Timothy 2:24-26)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
I will attempt to respond on two points.
1. I believe that the two general statements about knowledge and knowing, "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know," apply to everything, not just to the eating of flesh; however, I would not attempt to impose my understanding on anyone else. There is always room for my understanding to be increased.
I believe that holding knowledge in a tentative fashion is imperative. If someone asks me, "What do you know?" I usually respond with, "I know that I'm safe with Jesus Christ." The knowledge of my relationship with Jesus Christ, and his faithfulness, are the solid rock upon which my life is built. Without Christ, I am nothing. Even though I know Jesus Christ, my knowledge of him can always be increased. I do not yet know him on the same level that he knows me, but someday I know that I will.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:12)
In all things, I believe that the Old and New Testaments constitute the only Divine rule of Christian faith and practice. I would not hold that my own understanding of anything rises to the same level of knowledge as the Scripture.
When I quote specific verses of the Bible, my intent is to address specific points concisely and with as much relevance as is possible. By giving the book, chapter and verse references, the reader can then refer to the full context of the verses as needed. I sometimes include a link to the whole chapter or the whole book.
2. If participating in these forums is very distressing to you, perhaps you should give it a rest, for the well-being of yourself, your family and others to whom you wish to minister.
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Philippians 4:5)
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. (II Timothy 2:24-26)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (krreagan+Dec 1 2005, 03:24 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 05:41 PM)
MXWordNerd: Any time you want to speak to some of the people who have been healed or delivered in Jesus Christ's name, you just let me know. They'll laugh you to scorn. Have a good one.
Newguy,
What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? How are all these people delusional but not you?
Krreagan
krreagan: I'm trusting that you asked this question out of sincerity. In either case, it is both a good and fair question. I would actually have to ask a question of my own before attempting to answer your question. What exactly do you mean by "delusional"? The following definition of "delusion" is from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
delusion
One entry found for delusion.
Main Entry: de·lu·sion
Pronunciation: di-'lü-zh&n, dE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
1 a : the act of deluding : the state of being deluded b : an abnormal mental state characterized by the occurrence of psychotic delusions
2 a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self
- de·lu·sion·al /-'lüzh-n&l, -'lü-zh&-n&l/ adjective
- de·lu·sion·ary /-zh&-"ner-E/ adjective
If there are those(I've never personally met them, but they very well might exist) who claim that they have been healed or delivered in Allah's name or Buddha's name, then I personally wouldn't automatically assume that they were "delusional". I'm personally convinced that many people do have "spiritual" encounters with results, but the question remains: "Which spirit did they encounter?" Biblically speaking, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate some of the signs and wonders done by Moses and Aaron, but they clearly weren't serving the same God/god. Additionally, the Bible does indicate that Satan(Oh yeah, I KNOW he exists too) is capable of performing "signs and lying wonders"(II Thessalonians 2:9). This being the case(which I assume you don't allow for), then how would one know who's got the right God/god? Well, might I suggest something similar to Elijah's taking on of the false prophets of Baal...sort of a spiritual "Clash of the Titans"? My personal belief(I said "belief", but I've had enough experience to suggest "knowledge") is that each "religion" has a spirit/spirits operating within its ranks. Many of them publicly state that this is so. Someone recently questioned JerryDuke about the Koran, for example. My understanding is that Mohammed was visited by an angel who gave him the Koran. Other "religions" like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons have very similar claims. The New Age movement admittedly communes with "spirit guides". I have cast out many "false gods a.k.a. demons" in Jesus' name. That's one way that I know that I have the right God. Hope that helps...
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Newguy,
What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? How are all these people delusional but not you?
Krreagan
krreagan: I'm trusting that you asked this question out of sincerity. In either case, it is both a good and fair question. I would actually have to ask a question of my own before attempting to answer your question. What exactly do you mean by "delusional"? The following definition of "delusion" is from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
delusion
One entry found for delusion.
Main Entry: de·lu·sion
Pronunciation: di-'lü-zh&n, dE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
1 a : the act of deluding : the state of being deluded b : an abnormal mental state characterized by the occurrence of psychotic delusions
2 a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self
- de·lu·sion·al /-'lüzh-n&l, -'lü-zh&-n&l/ adjective
- de·lu·sion·ary /-zh&-"ner-E/ adjective
If there are those(I've never personally met them, but they very well might exist) who claim that they have been healed or delivered in Allah's name or Buddha's name, then I personally wouldn't automatically assume that they were "delusional". I'm personally convinced that many people do have "spiritual" encounters with results, but the question remains: "Which spirit did they encounter?" Biblically speaking, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate some of the signs and wonders done by Moses and Aaron, but they clearly weren't serving the same God/god. Additionally, the Bible does indicate that Satan(Oh yeah, I KNOW he exists too) is capable of performing "signs and lying wonders"(II Thessalonians 2:9). This being the case(which I assume you don't allow for), then how would one know who's got the right God/god? Well, might I suggest something similar to Elijah's taking on of the false prophets of Baal...sort of a spiritual "Clash of the Titans"? My personal belief(I said "belief", but I've had enough experience to suggest "knowledge") is that each "religion" has a spirit/spirits operating within its ranks. Many of them publicly state that this is so. Someone recently questioned JerryDuke about the Koran, for example. My understanding is that Mohammed was visited by an angel who gave him the Koran. Other "religions" like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons have very similar claims. The New Age movement admittedly communes with "spirit guides". I have cast out many "false gods a.k.a. demons" in Jesus' name. That's one way that I know that I have the right God. Hope that helps...
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 04:52 PM)
... I have cast out many "false gods a.k.a. demons" in Jesus' name. That's one way that I know that I have the right God. Hope that helps...
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matthew 7:21-27)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matthew 7:21-27)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (krreagan+Dec 1 2005, 03:24 AM)
... What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? ...
Then Peter, filled with the Holy G h o s t, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:8-12)
Then Peter, filled with the Holy G h o s t, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:8-12)
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Dec 1 2005, 05:03 PM)
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 04:52 PM)
... I have cast out many "false gods a.k.a. demons" in Jesus' name. That's one way that I know that I have the right God. Hope that helps...
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matthew 7:21-27)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Jerry: This is very true and you actually saved me the trouble of posting that portion of scripture myself(I anticipated that you would post it...What took you so long?). The casting out of demons, in and of itself, does not guarantee that one will be a part of God's kingdom one day. One does certainly need to "do the will of the Father which is in heaven", "depart from iniquity" and both "hear the sayings of Jesus AND do them." No disagreement between us there. I am presently meeting these qualifications(with God's help, of course) and I fully intend to stay on that same course until my dying breath. I have, I might remind you, oftentimes stressed the need for genuine repentance from sin and the importance of personal holiness which can only be attained with the helping power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Basically, the casting out of spirits, which might best be described as a "gift" of the Spirit doesn't remove or replace the need for holiness, which might best be described as a "fruit" of the Spirit. I also might remind you, Jerry, that you're own personal testimony, which you've posted on this forum, is that you were delivered from an evil spirit yourself. Remember that? And, just for the record, I said, in regard to the casting out of demons, "that's ONE WAY that I know that I have the right God." There are "other ways", as I've addressed plainly in previous posts. Hopefully, I'll be answering your other post to me in a little while, as time permits.
P.S. No need to "quote" me the list of the "gifts" of the Spirit and the list of the "fruits" of the Spirit...I know where they are. I deliberately used the words "MIGHT best be described as" in my post just to make a point.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matthew 7:21-27)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Jerry: This is very true and you actually saved me the trouble of posting that portion of scripture myself(I anticipated that you would post it...What took you so long?). The casting out of demons, in and of itself, does not guarantee that one will be a part of God's kingdom one day. One does certainly need to "do the will of the Father which is in heaven", "depart from iniquity" and both "hear the sayings of Jesus AND do them." No disagreement between us there. I am presently meeting these qualifications(with God's help, of course) and I fully intend to stay on that same course until my dying breath. I have, I might remind you, oftentimes stressed the need for genuine repentance from sin and the importance of personal holiness which can only be attained with the helping power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Basically, the casting out of spirits, which might best be described as a "gift" of the Spirit doesn't remove or replace the need for holiness, which might best be described as a "fruit" of the Spirit. I also might remind you, Jerry, that you're own personal testimony, which you've posted on this forum, is that you were delivered from an evil spirit yourself. Remember that? And, just for the record, I said, in regard to the casting out of demons, "that's ONE WAY that I know that I have the right God." There are "other ways", as I've addressed plainly in previous posts. Hopefully, I'll be answering your other post to me in a little while, as time permits.
P.S. No need to "quote" me the list of the "gifts" of the Spirit and the list of the "fruits" of the Spirit...I know where they are. I deliberately used the words "MIGHT best be described as" in my post just to make a point.
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 09:52 AM)
QUOTE (krreagan+Dec 1 2005, 03:24 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 05:41 PM)
MXWordNerd: Any time you want to speak to some of the people who have been healed or delivered in Jesus Christ's name, you just let me know. They'll laugh you to scorn. Have a good one.
Newguy,
What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? How are all these people delusional but not you?
Krreagan
krreagan: I'm trusting that you asked this question out of sincerity. In either case, it is both a good and fair question. I would actually have to ask a question of my own before attempting to answer your question. What exactly do you mean by "delusional"? The following definition of "delusion" is from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
delusion
One entry found for delusion.
Main Entry: de·lu·sion
Pronunciation: di-'lü-zh&n, dE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
1 a : the act of deluding : the state of being deluded b : an abnormal mental state characterized by the occurrence of psychotic delusions
2 a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self
- de·lu·sion·al /-'lüzh-n&l, -'lü-zh&-n&l/ adjective
- de·lu·sion·ary /-zh&-"ner-E/ adjective
If there are those(I've never personally met them, but they very well might exist) who claim that they have been healed or delivered in Allah's name or Buddha's name, then I personally wouldn't automatically assume that they were "delusional". I'm personally convinced that many people do have "spiritual" encounters with results, but the question remains: "Which spirit did they encounter?" Biblically speaking, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate some of the signs and wonders done by Moses and Aaron, but they clearly weren't serving the same God/god. Additionally, the Bible does indicate that Satan(Oh yeah, I KNOW he exists too) is capable of performing "signs and lying wonders"(II Thessalonians 2:9). This being the case(which I assume you don't allow for), then how would one know who's got the right God/god? Well, might I suggest something similar to Elijah's taking on of the false prophets of Baal...sort of a spiritual "Clash of the Titans"? My personal belief(I said "belief", but I've had enough experience to suggest "knowledge") is that each "religion" has a spirit/spirits operating within its ranks. Many of them publicly state that this is so. Someone recently questioned JerryDuke about the Koran, for example. My understanding is that Mohammed was visited by an angel who gave him the Koran. Other "religions" like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons have very similar claims. The New Age movement admittedly communes with "spirit guides". I have cast out many "false gods a.k.a. demons" in Jesus' name. That's one way that I know that I have the right God. Hope that helps...
Newguy,
It was asked sincerely.
#2 a) will work fine. (again the power of the mind...)
I used the word delusional because if these other people had (more or less) the same experiences that you had and since the christian god does not allow for other gods to exist, and the christian god would not have helped someone praying to a different (non-existant) god, then obliviously one (or both) of you were seeing/experiencing something that was not there (ie. delusional).
So you are saying that everybody that has a religious experience that is not a (correct) christian was actually seeing/feeling/experiencing/being-acted-on by agents of satan? This is incredibly arrogant in my book. You are saying that only christians have interpreted the signs from god correctly and all others are hell bound for worshiping a false god! and what about the different "christian" religions are they also hell bound?
I'd say something to the affect that you cannot _know_ satan exists, but we have already covered that point
Krreagan
PS. can we just ignore Jerry?
Newguy,
What about the thousands of people that have been healed or delivered in Ala's name, or Buddha's name? How are all these people delusional but not you?
Krreagan
krreagan: I'm trusting that you asked this question out of sincerity. In either case, it is both a good and fair question. I would actually have to ask a question of my own before attempting to answer your question. What exactly do you mean by "delusional"? The following definition of "delusion" is from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
delusion
One entry found for delusion.
Main Entry: de·lu·sion
Pronunciation: di-'lü-zh&n, dE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
1 a : the act of deluding : the state of being deluded b : an abnormal mental state characterized by the occurrence of psychotic delusions
2 a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self
- de·lu·sion·al /-'lüzh-n&l, -'lü-zh&-n&l/ adjective
- de·lu·sion·ary /-zh&-"ner-E/ adjective
If there are those(I've never personally met them, but they very well might exist) who claim that they have been healed or delivered in Allah's name or Buddha's name, then I personally wouldn't automatically assume that they were "delusional". I'm personally convinced that many people do have "spiritual" encounters with results, but the question remains: "Which spirit did they encounter?" Biblically speaking, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate some of the signs and wonders done by Moses and Aaron, but they clearly weren't serving the same God/god. Additionally, the Bible does indicate that Satan(Oh yeah, I KNOW he exists too) is capable of performing "signs and lying wonders"(II Thessalonians 2:9). This being the case(which I assume you don't allow for), then how would one know who's got the right God/god? Well, might I suggest something similar to Elijah's taking on of the false prophets of Baal...sort of a spiritual "Clash of the Titans"? My personal belief(I said "belief", but I've had enough experience to suggest "knowledge") is that each "religion" has a spirit/spirits operating within its ranks. Many of them publicly state that this is so. Someone recently questioned JerryDuke about the Koran, for example. My understanding is that Mohammed was visited by an angel who gave him the Koran. Other "religions" like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons have very similar claims. The New Age movement admittedly communes with "spirit guides". I have cast out many "false gods a.k.a. demons" in Jesus' name. That's one way that I know that I have the right God. Hope that helps...
Newguy,
It was asked sincerely.
#2 a) will work fine. (again the power of the mind...)
I used the word delusional because if these other people had (more or less) the same experiences that you had and since the christian god does not allow for other gods to exist, and the christian god would not have helped someone praying to a different (non-existant) god, then obliviously one (or both) of you were seeing/experiencing something that was not there (ie. delusional).
So you are saying that everybody that has a religious experience that is not a (correct) christian was actually seeing/feeling/experiencing/being-acted-on by agents of satan? This is incredibly arrogant in my book. You are saying that only christians have interpreted the signs from god correctly and all others are hell bound for worshiping a false god! and what about the different "christian" religions are they also hell bound?
I'd say something to the affect that you cannot _know_ satan exists, but we have already covered that point
Krreagan
PS. can we just ignore Jerry?
QUOTE (krreagan+Dec 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
Newguy,
It was asked sincerely.
#2 a) will work fine. (again the power of the mind...)
I used the word delusional because if these other people had (more or less) the same experiences that you had and since the christian god does not allow for other gods to exist, and the christian god would not have helped someone praying to a different (non-existant) god, then obliviously one (or both) of you were seeing/experiencing something that was not there (ie. delusional).
So you are saying that everybody that has a religious experience that is not a (correct) christian was actually seeing/feeling/experiencing/being-acted-on by agents of satan? This is incredibly arrogant in my book. You are saying that only christians have interpreted the signs from god correctly and all others are hell bound for worshiping a false god! and what about the different "christian" religions are they also hell bound?
I'd say something to the affect that you cannot _know_ satan exists, but we have already covered that point
Krreagan
PS. can we just ignore Jerry?
krreagan: I'm not trying to trap you in your words, I'm just assuming you used the words that you meant to use when you said: "The Christian God does not allow for other gods to exist...". I hope you don't mind that I capitalized "Christian" and "God". The Christian God does "allow" for "other gods" to exist. These "other gods" are "demons", "evil spirits", "unclean spirits", etc. It's not that they're not "allowed" to exist, it's that God doesn't want anyone to follow or worship them because their determined end is judgment. In light of this, I would also have to disagree with the second part of that same statement. Neither one of us would have to be "delusional", using your agreed to definition of the word. We both could "genuinely" be having contact with our God/god. The main difference being that my God created their god and therefore, in that before suggested "Clash of the Titans", my God can "whoop" their god any time, spiritually speaking. I'm talking in "light" terms just to make a point. You realize, I hope, that I don't take this to be a "light" matter at all. It is never "light" when I encounter someone who is being tormented, whether physically, mentally or spiritually, and needs deliverance from an evil spirit. As I've said before, this isn't a game.
As far as your question regarding different "religions" is concerned, I'm going to answer that separately when I'm able...hopefully, shortly. Today is sort of "rushed" for me. My wife's water did break late last night/early this morning and I could have to run any second...literally.
As far as "knowing Satan" is concerned. How could you say this is impossible? Haven't you ever read any of the posts of "SoLoved", "messenger" or "dad1"? Who do you think is "inspiring" them? I'm not joking. I'll talk to you later.
It was asked sincerely.
#2 a) will work fine. (again the power of the mind...)
I used the word delusional because if these other people had (more or less) the same experiences that you had and since the christian god does not allow for other gods to exist, and the christian god would not have helped someone praying to a different (non-existant) god, then obliviously one (or both) of you were seeing/experiencing something that was not there (ie. delusional).
So you are saying that everybody that has a religious experience that is not a (correct) christian was actually seeing/feeling/experiencing/being-acted-on by agents of satan? This is incredibly arrogant in my book. You are saying that only christians have interpreted the signs from god correctly and all others are hell bound for worshiping a false god! and what about the different "christian" religions are they also hell bound?
I'd say something to the affect that you cannot _know_ satan exists, but we have already covered that point
Krreagan
PS. can we just ignore Jerry?
krreagan: I'm not trying to trap you in your words, I'm just assuming you used the words that you meant to use when you said: "The Christian God does not allow for other gods to exist...". I hope you don't mind that I capitalized "Christian" and "God". The Christian God does "allow" for "other gods" to exist. These "other gods" are "demons", "evil spirits", "unclean spirits", etc. It's not that they're not "allowed" to exist, it's that God doesn't want anyone to follow or worship them because their determined end is judgment. In light of this, I would also have to disagree with the second part of that same statement. Neither one of us would have to be "delusional", using your agreed to definition of the word. We both could "genuinely" be having contact with our God/god. The main difference being that my God created their god and therefore, in that before suggested "Clash of the Titans", my God can "whoop" their god any time, spiritually speaking. I'm talking in "light" terms just to make a point. You realize, I hope, that I don't take this to be a "light" matter at all. It is never "light" when I encounter someone who is being tormented, whether physically, mentally or spiritually, and needs deliverance from an evil spirit. As I've said before, this isn't a game.
As far as your question regarding different "religions" is concerned, I'm going to answer that separately when I'm able...hopefully, shortly. Today is sort of "rushed" for me. My wife's water did break late last night/early this morning and I could have to run any second...literally.
As far as "knowing Satan" is concerned. How could you say this is impossible? Haven't you ever read any of the posts of "SoLoved", "messenger" or "dad1"? Who do you think is "inspiring" them? I'm not joking. I'll talk to you later.
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 05:26 PM)
... Basically, the casting out of spirits, which might best be described as a "gift" of the Spirit doesn't remove or replace the need for holiness, which might best be described as a "fruit" of the Spirit. ...
Holiness is a requirement, "without which no man shall see the Lord." We are saved not by our own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God which is imputed to us if we trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Hebrews 12:14-16)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (James 2:23)
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:18-25)
Holiness is a requirement, "without which no man shall see the Lord." We are saved not by our own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God which is imputed to us if we trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Hebrews 12:14-16)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (James 2:23)
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:18-25)
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Dec 1 2005, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 05:26 PM)
... Basically, the casting out of spirits, which might best be described as a "gift" of the Spirit doesn't remove or replace the need for holiness, which might best be described as a "fruit" of the Spirit. ...
Holiness is a requirement, "without which no man shall see the Lord." We are saved not by our own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God which is imputed to us if we trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Hebrews 12:14-16)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (James 2:23)
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:18-25)
Jerry: Are you turning into SoLoved also? Can't you read? Why do you continually take excerpts out of my posts that, by themselves, can mislead the reader? Not only did I mention about the necessity of holiness in the post that you deliberately "chopped", but I've also written about it extensively elsewhere thoughout this forum. If you want to "rebuke" or "correct" someone, then please start with yourself. You've taken a drastic turn for the worse of late. It seems everyone else on this forum is well aware of my views on the topic of holiness but you're still somehow "in the dark". What a disgrace. Some "light of the world" you are. I've gotta go.
Because that's what someone does when they don't have anything logical to base their argument off of...
Because that's what someone does when they don't have anything logical to base their argument off of...
AMEN!
Holiness is a requirement, "without which no man shall see the Lord." We are saved not by our own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God which is imputed to us if we trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Hebrews 12:14-16)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (James 2:23)
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:18-25)
Jerry: Are you turning into SoLoved also? Can't you read? Why do you continually take excerpts out of my posts that, by themselves, can mislead the reader? Not only did I mention about the necessity of holiness in the post that you deliberately "chopped", but I've also written about it extensively elsewhere thoughout this forum. If you want to "rebuke" or "correct" someone, then please start with yourself. You've taken a drastic turn for the worse of late. It seems everyone else on this forum is well aware of my views on the topic of holiness but you're still somehow "in the dark". What a disgrace. Some "light of the world" you are. I've gotta go.
QUOTE
Why do you continually take excerpts out of my posts that, by themselves, can mislead the reader?
Because that's what someone does when they don't have anything logical to base their argument off of...
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 1 2005, 06:43 PM)
QUOTE
Why do you continually take excerpts out of my posts that, by themselves, can mislead the reader?
Because that's what someone does when they don't have anything logical to base their argument off of...
AMEN!
Jerry, your last post: beautiful in its simplicity! You didn't include your standard header and footer, and as a result, it took up much less space, and I found that I actually READ the entire thing! It has indeed been a while since I could honestly say I've done that.
We understand that witnessing and offering people the opportunity to join ranks with Jesus is very important to you, but I'm willing to wager that most individuals here have seen your posts enough to know where to go to find that information again. It is superfluous to repeat that same information over and over, and may actually prevent some people from even caring about what you have to say.
PS: In case you think that it's merely because the Holy Spirit is talking to me and it is upsetting me, therefore you will continue to clutter up your posts because of that: you are mistaken. Consider the possibility if I continually put headers and footers on all of my posts saying "God is fake!", "Burn the Bible!" and "How to get Jesus out of your heart now!". I am willing to wager it would bother you, and you might begin to skip over and miss some portions or some of my entire posts.
Do unto others, no?
We understand that witnessing and offering people the opportunity to join ranks with Jesus is very important to you, but I'm willing to wager that most individuals here have seen your posts enough to know where to go to find that information again. It is superfluous to repeat that same information over and over, and may actually prevent some people from even caring about what you have to say.
PS: In case you think that it's merely because the Holy Spirit is talking to me and it is upsetting me, therefore you will continue to clutter up your posts because of that: you are mistaken. Consider the possibility if I continually put headers and footers on all of my posts saying "God is fake!", "Burn the Bible!" and "How to get Jesus out of your heart now!". I am willing to wager it would bother you, and you might begin to skip over and miss some portions or some of my entire posts.
Do unto others, no?
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 11:16 AM)
QUOTE (krreagan+Dec 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
Newguy,
It was asked sincerely.
#2 a) will work fine. (again the power of the mind...)
I used the word delusional because if these other people had (more or less) the same experiences that you had and since the christian god does not allow for other gods to exist, and the christian god would not have helped someone praying to a different (non-existant) god, then obliviously one (or both) of you were seeing/experiencing something that was not there (ie. delusional).
So you are saying that everybody that has a religious experience that is not a (correct) christian was actually seeing/feeling/experiencing/being-acted-on by agents of satan? This is incredibly arrogant in my book. You are saying that only christians have interpreted the signs from god correctly and all others are hell bound for worshiping a false god! and what about the different "christian" religions are they also hell bound?
I'd say something to the affect that you cannot _know_ satan exists, but we have already covered that point
Krreagan
PS. can we just ignore Jerry?
krreagan: I'm not trying to trap you in your words, I'm just assuming you used the words that you meant to use when you said: "The Christian God does not allow for other gods to exist...". I hope you don't mind that I capitalized "Christian" and "God". The Christian God does "allow" for "other gods" to exist. These "other gods" are "demons", "evil spirits", "unclean spirits", etc. It's not that they're not "allowed" to exist, it's that God doesn't want anyone to follow or worship them because their determined end is judgment. In light of this, I would also have to disagree with the second part of that same statement. Neither one of us would have to be "delusional", using your agreed to definition of the word. We both could "genuinely" be having contact with our God/god. The main difference being that my God created their god and therefore, in that before suggested "Clash of the Titans", my God can "whoop" their god any time, spiritually speaking. I'm talking in "light" terms just to make a point. You realize, I hope, that I don't take this to be a "light" matter at all. It is never "light" when I encounter someone who is being tormented, whether physically, mentally or spiritually, and needs deliverance from an evil spirit. As I've said before, this isn't a game.
As far as your question regarding different "religions" is concerned, I'm going to answer that separately when I'm able...hopefully, shortly. Today is sort of "rushed" for me. My wife's water did break late last night/early this morning and I could have to run any second...literally.
As far as "knowing Satan" is concerned. How could you say this is impossible? Haven't you ever read any of the posts of "SoLoved", "messenger" or "dad1"? Who do you think is "inspiring" them? I'm not joking. I'll talk to you later.
Congratulations!!!! I have three kids myself and their births are truly the most amazing and wonderful experiences I've had. Good luck! ahh heck! if there is a god... may he bless you, your wife and your child(ren)! .
I guess the other religions who's god is subservient to your god might take offense to this hierarchical relationship (no wonder we have so many wars over differing religious views). My definition of the term "god" means "supreme being" which does not allow for multiple copies or a hierarchy of gods. So these subserviant gods would not classify as gods.
As for who is inspiring who, I don't believe in god so satan is not an option either. Please don't take this next comment wrong but... I see very little difference in your and their beliefs, only in method of communication, intelligent discussion (in your case), crusade (in their case).
Krreagan
The origination of the first simple microscopic single celled organisms on earth (The spark of life).
In summary the first single celled organisms may have been formed from a series of extremely complex reactions or combination processes, involving different substances. Most of the combination processes or the combining of the substances can only take place at extremely high pressures and along with high pressure comes high temperature.
How life was first formed on earth:
The best environments needed for the creation of life. These environments would have to provide the right ingredients, combine these ingredients at the right temperature and pressure, and would have to be able to sustain and nurture this newly formed life. The prefect environment would be the environment on a large mineral and gas (star dust) enriched meteorite, comet or asteroid which is able to with stand the extremely high temperatures and pressures upon entering the earth’s newly formed and dense atmosphere, and the environment in a large mineral and nutrient enriched body of water (an ocean). The meteorite, comet or asteroid entering the earth’s newly formed and dense atmosphere would provide some of the materials and the energy required to combine these materials and the dense atmosphere would provide the rest of these materials, while the large body of water would provide the nutrients and gentle environment needed sustain this newly formed life.
I know that the earth newly formed atmosphere would be very dense; this is based on the fact that currently on the earth there are trillions of organisms. Within these trillions of organisms are trillions of trillions of trillions of compounds, which are made up of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and other atoms and ions. After the earth and its atmosphere were formed most of these trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and other atoms and ions would be present in the newly formed atmosphere, which make the atmosphere extremely dense. So with the entry of a body, which can provide the energy and pressure, some of these atoms and ions would start to combine to form new and complex substance such as organic substance even simple microscopic organisms. After the meteorite or comet enters the dense atmosphere the combination processes or reactions to form life could take place minutes, seconds, microseconds or even nanoseconds apart. Time line between the reactions could even be so close that it apart that all of them took place at the same time.
The combining or breaking down and splitting up of atoms or elements can or will only take place at high temperatures and pressures in nature or naturally. These fusing and splitting processes of atoms cause nuclear reactions or fusions. The thermo nuclear reaction, which takes place in the cores of suns, is evidence of these processes. The combining or breaking down of ions, molecules and compounds can take place in the present of electrical, heat and other forms of energy.
Think of the creation of life as a chef cooking a piece of beef. The meteor, comet or meteorite would represent the beef. The different element, ions and molecules present on and within the meteorite and within the atmosphere (like nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, iron, carbon dioxide, water, etc.) would represent the different seasonings and spices that the chef would place on the piece of beef to make it more tasty and more palatable. And like how some of the seasonings and spices are not on the beef for nutritious reasons, so also some of the elements and molecules present in the meteorite won’t be involve in the complex chemical processes soon to be taking place on the meteorite (asteroid or comet) now entering the earth’s atmosphere. The earth’s rich and dense atmosphere would be like the pat and the stove needed to cook the piece of beef properly.
The chef has to pay lots attention to the beef when it’s being cooked to make sure it is properly cooked, to make sure it is not burnt, and to make sure the flame is not too high or too low and that the flame from the stove is not put out too early. So also must the electrical energy or electrical discharges in the atmosphere be just right, the atmosphere must also have the right elements and molecules to assist the meteorite, asteroid or comet in the complex combination processes or reactions. The distance from the upper most layer of the atmosphere to the surface the planet or body of large water must be just right, the body of water on the surface of the planet must be large enough to cool the meteorite to save the newly formed life it is carrying, the large body of water must also be rich with nutrients to sustain the newly formed organisms.
In order for the simple inorganic compounds and the elements present in the atmosphere and in the meteorite, comet or asteroid to form life they must be combined in a series of complex chemical processes and reactions at high temperature and pressure.
The building or creation of single celled organisms:
Upon entering the earth’s newly formed rich and dense atmosphere the chemicals on and within the meteorite, asteroid or comet, would begin to react with the chemicals in the atmosphere. These chemical reactions would begin to combine elements and molecules forming new substances, that is, the chemical reactions would turn simple inorganic compounds or substances into more complex inorganic compounds. As the meteorite moves closer and closer towards the earth’s surface, the temperature and pressure of the meteorite and its immediate surroundings would begin to rise and the amount of energy produced by the meteorite would also start to increase. These increases would now cause the complex inorganic compounds to be combined forming simple organic substances. For example the high temperature, energy and pressure, and the high speed of the meteorite would begin to combine simple inorganic substance like carbon atoms, hydrogen molecules, oxygen molecules, nitrogen molecules, chlorine molecules and sulphur atoms to produce complex inorganic compounds such as mineral and organic acids, bases, salts and other compounds. These complex inorganic substances would further be combined through even more complex chemical processes to produce simple organic substance such as amino acids, fatty acids, simple sugars, glycerol, salts and other organic acids.
As the temperature, pressure and energy continue to increase with great intensity the number of reactions would increase, and more complex chemical reactions between the organic and inorganic substances would begin to take place. These complex reactions would mark the beginning of the final combinations and chemical processes to start life.
The simple organic compounds like amino acids, simple sugars and others, along with the complex and simple inorganic compounds would continue to reacted and be combined to create complex organic substances such as complex sugars, complex proteins, and complex fats and oils.
In the early years of the earth, the earth was more compacted and compressed because the pressure built up in the core did not cause it to expand too far as yet. That is the gravitational field was the same size as now, it mass was the same but its volume and density were different from now. Its atmosphere also had a larger volume that is the distance from the upper most layer of the atmosphere to the surface of the planet was larger than now.
Now back to the chef cooking the beef. If the volume and density of the atmosphere was not just right and if there wasn’t a large body of water on the surface of the planet, then either the life creating chemical processes would not be completed and no life would be created or the newly formed organisms would not be able to endure or with stand the harsh conditions of the high temperatures and pressure produced by the meteorite (comet or asteroid) on entering the atmosphere and would immediately be incinerated, vaporized or destroyed. That would be like the chef leaving the beef on the stove too long and it begins to burn or it would be like the stove prematurely out before the beef is properly cooked.
The final combinations and reactions are the most critical, complex and important processes and have to be carried and maintained in just the right way and at just the right time. These final reactions and combination processes would involve all the reactants and products of the pervious processes and reactions.
The final reactions and combinations to form the simple single celled organisms would be a series of complex reactions between the complex organic molecules and compounds themselves and between the complex organic molecules and compounds and the other substances present on the meteorite and in the atmosphere. The complex molecules and compounds would be of proteins, sugars, fats and acids. These final processes and reactions would create the organelles of the organisms and at the some time the organisms themselves. They newly formed organisms would receive the energy they need to start their lives from the energy produced by the meteorite. If the organisms receive too much energy they would immediately be destroy by the intensity of energy. In order for the organisms to remain alive the meteorite must immediately loose its intense temperature and pressure and, become cool. The only way this would be done is if the fast moving and hot meteorite comes to rest or lands in a large nutrient enrich body of water (such as a ocean).
The newly formed simple organisms now in the large body would feed and sustain, and carry out most of the life processes through the processes of diffusion and osmosis.
Note that all the simple and complex reactions and combination processes to form the simple microscopic organisms on and within the comet, asteroid or meteorite in the earth’s very dense atmosphere would take place at the microscopic level. That is you would not see big trunks or pieces of organic materials present on meteorite. Instead you would have to use microscopes to look for the evidence that there is organic material present.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
It was asked sincerely.
#2 a) will work fine. (again the power of the mind...)
I used the word delusional because if these other people had (more or less) the same experiences that you had and since the christian god does not allow for other gods to exist, and the christian god would not have helped someone praying to a different (non-existant) god, then obliviously one (or both) of you were seeing/experiencing something that was not there (ie. delusional).
So you are saying that everybody that has a religious experience that is not a (correct) christian was actually seeing/feeling/experiencing/being-acted-on by agents of satan? This is incredibly arrogant in my book. You are saying that only christians have interpreted the signs from god correctly and all others are hell bound for worshiping a false god! and what about the different "christian" religions are they also hell bound?
I'd say something to the affect that you cannot _know_ satan exists, but we have already covered that point
Krreagan
PS. can we just ignore Jerry?
krreagan: I'm not trying to trap you in your words, I'm just assuming you used the words that you meant to use when you said: "The Christian God does not allow for other gods to exist...". I hope you don't mind that I capitalized "Christian" and "God". The Christian God does "allow" for "other gods" to exist. These "other gods" are "demons", "evil spirits", "unclean spirits", etc. It's not that they're not "allowed" to exist, it's that God doesn't want anyone to follow or worship them because their determined end is judgment. In light of this, I would also have to disagree with the second part of that same statement. Neither one of us would have to be "delusional", using your agreed to definition of the word. We both could "genuinely" be having contact with our God/god. The main difference being that my God created their god and therefore, in that before suggested "Clash of the Titans", my God can "whoop" their god any time, spiritually speaking. I'm talking in "light" terms just to make a point. You realize, I hope, that I don't take this to be a "light" matter at all. It is never "light" when I encounter someone who is being tormented, whether physically, mentally or spiritually, and needs deliverance from an evil spirit. As I've said before, this isn't a game.
As far as your question regarding different "religions" is concerned, I'm going to answer that separately when I'm able...hopefully, shortly. Today is sort of "rushed" for me. My wife's water did break late last night/early this morning and I could have to run any second...literally.
As far as "knowing Satan" is concerned. How could you say this is impossible? Haven't you ever read any of the posts of "SoLoved", "messenger" or "dad1"? Who do you think is "inspiring" them? I'm not joking. I'll talk to you later.
Congratulations!!!! I have three kids myself and their births are truly the most amazing and wonderful experiences I've had. Good luck! ahh heck! if there is a god... may he bless you, your wife and your child(ren)!
.I guess the other religions who's god is subservient to your god might take offense to this hierarchical relationship (no wonder we have so many wars over differing religious views). My definition of the term "god" means "supreme being" which does not allow for multiple copies or a hierarchy of gods. So these subserviant gods would not classify as gods.
As for who is inspiring who, I don't believe in god so satan is not an option either. Please don't take this next comment wrong but... I see very little difference in your and their beliefs, only in method of communication, intelligent discussion (in your case), crusade (in their case).
Krreagan
The origination of the first simple microscopic single celled organisms on earth (The spark of life).
In summary the first single celled organisms may have been formed from a series of extremely complex reactions or combination processes, involving different substances. Most of the combination processes or the combining of the substances can only take place at extremely high pressures and along with high pressure comes high temperature.
How life was first formed on earth:
The best environments needed for the creation of life. These environments would have to provide the right ingredients, combine these ingredients at the right temperature and pressure, and would have to be able to sustain and nurture this newly formed life. The prefect environment would be the environment on a large mineral and gas (star dust) enriched meteorite, comet or asteroid which is able to with stand the extremely high temperatures and pressures upon entering the earth’s newly formed and dense atmosphere, and the environment in a large mineral and nutrient enriched body of water (an ocean). The meteorite, comet or asteroid entering the earth’s newly formed and dense atmosphere would provide some of the materials and the energy required to combine these materials and the dense atmosphere would provide the rest of these materials, while the large body of water would provide the nutrients and gentle environment needed sustain this newly formed life.
I know that the earth newly formed atmosphere would be very dense; this is based on the fact that currently on the earth there are trillions of organisms. Within these trillions of organisms are trillions of trillions of trillions of compounds, which are made up of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and other atoms and ions. After the earth and its atmosphere were formed most of these trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and other atoms and ions would be present in the newly formed atmosphere, which make the atmosphere extremely dense. So with the entry of a body, which can provide the energy and pressure, some of these atoms and ions would start to combine to form new and complex substance such as organic substance even simple microscopic organisms. After the meteorite or comet enters the dense atmosphere the combination processes or reactions to form life could take place minutes, seconds, microseconds or even nanoseconds apart. Time line between the reactions could even be so close that it apart that all of them took place at the same time.
The combining or breaking down and splitting up of atoms or elements can or will only take place at high temperatures and pressures in nature or naturally. These fusing and splitting processes of atoms cause nuclear reactions or fusions. The thermo nuclear reaction, which takes place in the cores of suns, is evidence of these processes. The combining or breaking down of ions, molecules and compounds can take place in the present of electrical, heat and other forms of energy.
Think of the creation of life as a chef cooking a piece of beef. The meteor, comet or meteorite would represent the beef. The different element, ions and molecules present on and within the meteorite and within the atmosphere (like nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, iron, carbon dioxide, water, etc.) would represent the different seasonings and spices that the chef would place on the piece of beef to make it more tasty and more palatable. And like how some of the seasonings and spices are not on the beef for nutritious reasons, so also some of the elements and molecules present in the meteorite won’t be involve in the complex chemical processes soon to be taking place on the meteorite (asteroid or comet) now entering the earth’s atmosphere. The earth’s rich and dense atmosphere would be like the pat and the stove needed to cook the piece of beef properly.
The chef has to pay lots attention to the beef when it’s being cooked to make sure it is properly cooked, to make sure it is not burnt, and to make sure the flame is not too high or too low and that the flame from the stove is not put out too early. So also must the electrical energy or electrical discharges in the atmosphere be just right, the atmosphere must also have the right elements and molecules to assist the meteorite, asteroid or comet in the complex combination processes or reactions. The distance from the upper most layer of the atmosphere to the surface the planet or body of large water must be just right, the body of water on the surface of the planet must be large enough to cool the meteorite to save the newly formed life it is carrying, the large body of water must also be rich with nutrients to sustain the newly formed organisms.
In order for the simple inorganic compounds and the elements present in the atmosphere and in the meteorite, comet or asteroid to form life they must be combined in a series of complex chemical processes and reactions at high temperature and pressure.
The building or creation of single celled organisms:
Upon entering the earth’s newly formed rich and dense atmosphere the chemicals on and within the meteorite, asteroid or comet, would begin to react with the chemicals in the atmosphere. These chemical reactions would begin to combine elements and molecules forming new substances, that is, the chemical reactions would turn simple inorganic compounds or substances into more complex inorganic compounds. As the meteorite moves closer and closer towards the earth’s surface, the temperature and pressure of the meteorite and its immediate surroundings would begin to rise and the amount of energy produced by the meteorite would also start to increase. These increases would now cause the complex inorganic compounds to be combined forming simple organic substances. For example the high temperature, energy and pressure, and the high speed of the meteorite would begin to combine simple inorganic substance like carbon atoms, hydrogen molecules, oxygen molecules, nitrogen molecules, chlorine molecules and sulphur atoms to produce complex inorganic compounds such as mineral and organic acids, bases, salts and other compounds. These complex inorganic substances would further be combined through even more complex chemical processes to produce simple organic substance such as amino acids, fatty acids, simple sugars, glycerol, salts and other organic acids.
As the temperature, pressure and energy continue to increase with great intensity the number of reactions would increase, and more complex chemical reactions between the organic and inorganic substances would begin to take place. These complex reactions would mark the beginning of the final combinations and chemical processes to start life.
The simple organic compounds like amino acids, simple sugars and others, along with the complex and simple inorganic compounds would continue to reacted and be combined to create complex organic substances such as complex sugars, complex proteins, and complex fats and oils.
In the early years of the earth, the earth was more compacted and compressed because the pressure built up in the core did not cause it to expand too far as yet. That is the gravitational field was the same size as now, it mass was the same but its volume and density were different from now. Its atmosphere also had a larger volume that is the distance from the upper most layer of the atmosphere to the surface of the planet was larger than now.
Now back to the chef cooking the beef. If the volume and density of the atmosphere was not just right and if there wasn’t a large body of water on the surface of the planet, then either the life creating chemical processes would not be completed and no life would be created or the newly formed organisms would not be able to endure or with stand the harsh conditions of the high temperatures and pressure produced by the meteorite (comet or asteroid) on entering the atmosphere and would immediately be incinerated, vaporized or destroyed. That would be like the chef leaving the beef on the stove too long and it begins to burn or it would be like the stove prematurely out before the beef is properly cooked.
The final combinations and reactions are the most critical, complex and important processes and have to be carried and maintained in just the right way and at just the right time. These final reactions and combination processes would involve all the reactants and products of the pervious processes and reactions.
The final reactions and combinations to form the simple single celled organisms would be a series of complex reactions between the complex organic molecules and compounds themselves and between the complex organic molecules and compounds and the other substances present on the meteorite and in the atmosphere. The complex molecules and compounds would be of proteins, sugars, fats and acids. These final processes and reactions would create the organelles of the organisms and at the some time the organisms themselves. They newly formed organisms would receive the energy they need to start their lives from the energy produced by the meteorite. If the organisms receive too much energy they would immediately be destroy by the intensity of energy. In order for the organisms to remain alive the meteorite must immediately loose its intense temperature and pressure and, become cool. The only way this would be done is if the fast moving and hot meteorite comes to rest or lands in a large nutrient enrich body of water (such as a ocean).
The newly formed simple organisms now in the large body would feed and sustain, and carry out most of the life processes through the processes of diffusion and osmosis.
Note that all the simple and complex reactions and combination processes to form the simple microscopic organisms on and within the comet, asteroid or meteorite in the earth’s very dense atmosphere would take place at the microscopic level. That is you would not see big trunks or pieces of organic materials present on meteorite. Instead you would have to use microscopes to look for the evidence that there is organic material present.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 25 2005, 07:56 PM)
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 25 2005, 05:28 PM)
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (Psalm 104:6-9)
Ok, so "they go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them."
Doesn't really answer the question now does it?
Where is this PLACE?
Its NOT here on EARTH.
Arthur
As stated before, I am not a geologist, but if I were looking for where the water went, I think there are at least two likely places.
1. An increased average depth of ocean basins after the flood could account for a lot of water.
2. Another vast repository of water appears to be under the surface of the earth.
Probing the Earth's Deep Places
... rock that represents the ocean floor is colder, and therefore denser than the rock below it and so can sink into the earth’s interior. And the properties of the rock inside the earth, especially at the high temperatures that exist there, make it possible for the colder rock from the earth’s surface to peel away and sink in a runaway manner down through the mantle—very rapidly. ...
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
As far as your question regarding different "religions" is concerned, I'm going to answer that separately when I'm able...hopefully, shortly. Today is sort of "rushed" for me. My wife's water did break late last night/early this morning and I could have to run any second...literally.
Now here's a guy who is got it under control, notice the "oh, and by the way, my wife's water just broke, now where were we...."
I think your kid wants out.
Good luck.
Arthur
Ok, so "they go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them."
Doesn't really answer the question now does it?
Where is this PLACE?
Its NOT here on EARTH.
Arthur
As stated before, I am not a geologist, but if I were looking for where the water went, I think there are at least two likely places.
1. An increased average depth of ocean basins after the flood could account for a lot of water.
2. Another vast repository of water appears to be under the surface of the earth.
QUOTE
RESEARCHERS ANALYZE LIQUID THAT LIES 180 KM BENEATH THE SURFACE,
October 11
While we generally think of water in nature as a cool liquid that we
can see -- streams, lakes, oceans -- there is a great deal of "hot
fluid" activity taking place far out of sight, deep within the earth,
that influences what ultimately takes place on the surface, including
the amount of rainfall and the buildup of new land mass.
Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news7153.html
October 11
While we generally think of water in nature as a cool liquid that we
can see -- streams, lakes, oceans -- there is a great deal of "hot
fluid" activity taking place far out of sight, deep within the earth,
that influences what ultimately takes place on the surface, including
the amount of rainfall and the buildup of new land mass.
Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news7153.html
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| RESEARCHERS ANALYZE LIQUID THAT LIES 180 KM BENEATH THE SURFACE, October 11 While we generally think of water in nature as a cool liquid that we can see -- streams, lakes, oceans -- there is a great deal of "hot fluid" activity taking place far out of sight, deep within the earth, that influences what ultimately takes place on the surface, including the amount of rainfall and the buildup of new land mass. Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news7153.html |
Probing the Earth's Deep Places
... rock that represents the ocean floor is colder, and therefore denser than the rock below it and so can sink into the earth’s interior. And the properties of the rock inside the earth, especially at the high temperatures that exist there, make it possible for the colder rock from the earth’s surface to peel away and sink in a runaway manner down through the mantle—very rapidly. ...
QUOTE
John Baumgardner, Ph.D.
John Baumgardner was working on a Ph.D. in electrical engineering when he discovered the reality of Jesus in a dramatic way through a group Bible study of the Gospel of John. ...
Upon completing his Ph.D. in geophysics and space physics, he accepted a position as a staff scientist in the Theoretical Division at Los Alamos National Laboratory, where he has continued his research in planetary mantle dynamics, including the potential for catastrophic mantle overturn. He has presented papers describing this mechanism for the Genesis Flood, now known as 'catastrophic plate tectonics,' at three International Conferences on Creationism held in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Dr Baumgardner’s current technical work at Los Alamos includes development of a new global ocean model for investigating climate change. He is also currently a member of the Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE) committee and an adjunct faculty member of the Institute for Creation Research.
John Baumgardner was working on a Ph.D. in electrical engineering when he discovered the reality of Jesus in a dramatic way through a group Bible study of the Gospel of John. ...
Upon completing his Ph.D. in geophysics and space physics, he accepted a position as a staff scientist in the Theoretical Division at Los Alamos National Laboratory, where he has continued his research in planetary mantle dynamics, including the potential for catastrophic mantle overturn. He has presented papers describing this mechanism for the Genesis Flood, now known as 'catastrophic plate tectonics,' at three International Conferences on Creationism held in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Dr Baumgardner’s current technical work at Los Alamos includes development of a new global ocean model for investigating climate change. He is also currently a member of the Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE) committee and an adjunct faculty member of the Institute for Creation Research.
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
QUOTE (krreagan+Dec 1 2005, 08:08 PM)
Please don't take this next comment wrong but... I see very little difference in your and their beliefs, only in method of communication, intelligent discussion (in your case), crusade (in their case).
krreagan: Actually, there are a whole host of things that they believe that I totally disagree with. Some of them I've already addressed throughout this forum and the others...well, why even bother? I am thoroughly convinced that all 1 of them/2 of them/3 of them are deceitful. When you start from that vantage point, or should I say, disadvantage point, why even bother dialoguing with them? The only time you can get any truth out of them is if you totally back them into a corner and then they grudgingly might speak a partial truth or two. One of the trademarks of a true Christian has to be truthfulness because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. You did confirm, though, what I've been suggesting all along. The biggest problem, from my viewpoint, with Intelligent Design is the lack of "intelligent" people defending it. Does anyone actually know what dad1 is rambling about? Someone should ship him off to a "PO"(not "Physical Only", but "Post Office") box in Alaska or something. Maybe he'd actually come to his senses and start speaking like a grown up. Please, don't associate me with him. The guy can't even answer a simple question. It's like playing "dodgeball". You throw something at him and he does whatever he can to "dodge" it and then just basically sticks out his tongue and says: "NA NA NA NA! MISSED ME!". The scariest thing is that he apparently doesn't even know there's anything wrong with his behaviour. Like I said, if someone can't even be honest and they're so oblivious to their own true condition, then why even bother? He's only damaging the position that he holds by his own ridiculous antics on this forum. Anyhow, I've gotta go real soon...
krreagan: Actually, there are a whole host of things that they believe that I totally disagree with. Some of them I've already addressed throughout this forum and the others...well, why even bother? I am thoroughly convinced that all 1 of them/2 of them/3 of them are deceitful. When you start from that vantage point, or should I say, disadvantage point, why even bother dialoguing with them? The only time you can get any truth out of them is if you totally back them into a corner and then they grudgingly might speak a partial truth or two. One of the trademarks of a true Christian has to be truthfulness because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. You did confirm, though, what I've been suggesting all along. The biggest problem, from my viewpoint, with Intelligent Design is the lack of "intelligent" people defending it. Does anyone actually know what dad1 is rambling about? Someone should ship him off to a "PO"(not "Physical Only", but "Post Office") box in Alaska or something. Maybe he'd actually come to his senses and start speaking like a grown up. Please, don't associate me with him. The guy can't even answer a simple question. It's like playing "dodgeball". You throw something at him and he does whatever he can to "dodge" it and then just basically sticks out his tongue and says: "NA NA NA NA! MISSED ME!". The scariest thing is that he apparently doesn't even know there's anything wrong with his behaviour. Like I said, if someone can't even be honest and they're so oblivious to their own true condition, then why even bother? He's only damaging the position that he holds by his own ridiculous antics on this forum. Anyhow, I've gotta go real soon...
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 06:16 PM)
As far as your question regarding different "religions" is concerned, I'm going to answer that separately when I'm able...hopefully, shortly. Today is sort of "rushed" for me. My wife's water did break late last night/early this morning and I could have to run any second...literally.
Now here's a guy who is got it under control, notice the "oh, and by the way, my wife's water just broke, now where were we...."
I think your kid wants out.
Good luck.
Arthur
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+)
As stated before, I am not a geologist, but if I were looking for where the water went, I think there are at least two likely places.
1. An increased average depth of ocean basins after the flood could account for a lot of water.
2. Another vast repository of water appears to be under the surface of the earth.
Well to cover the mountains, as per the legend one would need an average of 5 miles of depth, ABOVE current sea levels.
The oceans only have an average depth of 3 miles. So increasing the depth won't come close to resolving this problem. Further the Flood would have also meant an awful lot of water sitting over what is NOW land, so that would account for almost 2 miles of ocean depth all by itself when it receded. So even if the oceans were only an average of a few feet deep to start with, you would still have to find a place for approx the SAME amount of water that is now in the oceans.
The authors never say VAST. In fact they talk about water being carried down at subduction zones. There is much more solid crust than fault lines, so VAST is probably not applicable. What's more, this isn't a NEW process, thus the water in the upper mantle would have already been at the time of the flood, since as the bible says there already were oceans.
Arthur
1. An increased average depth of ocean basins after the flood could account for a lot of water.
2. Another vast repository of water appears to be under the surface of the earth.
Well to cover the mountains, as per the legend one would need an average of 5 miles of depth, ABOVE current sea levels.
The oceans only have an average depth of 3 miles. So increasing the depth won't come close to resolving this problem. Further the Flood would have also meant an awful lot of water sitting over what is NOW land, so that would account for almost 2 miles of ocean depth all by itself when it receded. So even if the oceans were only an average of a few feet deep to start with, you would still have to find a place for approx the SAME amount of water that is now in the oceans.
The authors never say VAST. In fact they talk about water being carried down at subduction zones. There is much more solid crust than fault lines, so VAST is probably not applicable. What's more, this isn't a NEW process, thus the water in the upper mantle would have already been at the time of the flood, since as the bible says there already were oceans.
Arthur
Although I have no desire to confirm your suspicions that I am completely off my rocker - I'm going to throw this idea up for grabs anyway.....
What if much more, or most of the earth was dry at one time? (just for fun, let's say it was before the Noahtic? flood)
This would make sense.
This would explain the different fossil layers.
Over the course of the next several months/years - more and more of the water receded.
Much of the higher ground would still be alive with vegetation - making for an easy time of finding food at the higher levels. (not so high as to be above the tree line)
Noah could have dropped off the animals here and there at various high grounds in various countries - according to God's instruction - He didn't just give him the cubit measurements and then leave him, ya know!
He was on the Ark for 6-12 months. (The reason I say that is because those who study calendars say that Noah time was calculated differently than Tulsa time).
Noah time could even give a longer age to the earth. How bout that?
Does anyone disagree with the idea that if we could empty an ocean somewhere - we would find all sorts of interesting stuff? Hmmmm?
p.s. I'm sure it's almost baby time for newguy - Good Luck & God Bless
What if much more, or most of the earth was dry at one time? (just for fun, let's say it was before the Noahtic? flood)
This would make sense.
This would explain the different fossil layers.
Over the course of the next several months/years - more and more of the water receded.
Much of the higher ground would still be alive with vegetation - making for an easy time of finding food at the higher levels. (not so high as to be above the tree line)
Noah could have dropped off the animals here and there at various high grounds in various countries - according to God's instruction - He didn't just give him the cubit measurements and then leave him, ya know!
He was on the Ark for 6-12 months. (The reason I say that is because those who study calendars say that Noah time was calculated differently than Tulsa time).
Noah time could even give a longer age to the earth. How bout that?
Does anyone disagree with the idea that if we could empty an ocean somewhere - we would find all sorts of interesting stuff? Hmmmm?
p.s. I'm sure it's almost baby time for newguy - Good Luck & God Bless
Messenger
How about this. Rather than twist and turn and distort the truth, you just admit that the scientists do know what they are doing(after all there are tens of thousand of them) and the evidence they have found does mean the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and life began 3.8 billion years ago and the fossil record is not a mass halucination of all the researchers at the same time.???
The truth is that scientists have found what they have said they have found. There is no conspiracy to fool the public with false scientific findings. If those findings disagree with your interpretation of whatever religious writings you believe in, then it is those interpretations which need a reexamination, not the science.
Grumpy
How about this. Rather than twist and turn and distort the truth, you just admit that the scientists do know what they are doing(after all there are tens of thousand of them) and the evidence they have found does mean the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and life began 3.8 billion years ago and the fossil record is not a mass halucination of all the researchers at the same time.???
The truth is that scientists have found what they have said they have found. There is no conspiracy to fool the public with false scientific findings. If those findings disagree with your interpretation of whatever religious writings you believe in, then it is those interpretations which need a reexamination, not the science.
Grumpy
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 01:16 PM)
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 30 2005, 05:35 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 29 2005, 11:29 PM)
... We can know the deep things of God by His Spirit and also teach them to others. ...
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (I Corinthians 8:2-3)
JerryDuke: Oh, Jerry. Not you, too. And you were doing so well. What happened? This is getting sooooo tiring. Here's your latest "misquote" in context.
"Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. As concerning therefore the eating of things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."(I Corinthians 8:1-13)
The Apostle Paul was clearly addressing Christians that had the "knowledge" that there is really only one true God and therefore, with this "knowledge", could still give thanks to the one true God while eating something that was offered in sacrifice to idols. However, since not every Christian had this same "knowledge", the one who was weaker in the faith might view the one who was stronger in the faith eating something sacrificed to idols and might "unknowingly" think then that it was okay to eat things that are actually sacrificed to idols. This is what Paul was addressing. The one who was stronger in the faith and said "My knowledge allows me to eat this" and didn't care how his "knowledge" might affect someone who didn't have that same "knowledge", in effect, "knew nothing yet as he ought to know" because he wasn't "walking in love" and didn't care how his actions might negatively affect his brother. Got it? If not, I'll gladly provide you with other portions of scripture that address this very same issue. This verse that you quoted has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the verse that I quoted you. If this was supposed to be a refutation of what I wrote, then it was the most PATHETIC refutation I've ever seen. I thought you knew better than this. Perhaps I'd better reevaluate my previously held opinions of you. I hope this was a temporary "slip" on your part and that you see the obvious folly of your response.
NOTE TO ALL OF THE "CHRISTIANS" ON THIS FORUM:
If you really want to see me die a premature death, then please, I would much prefer that you just walked up to me and "blew my brains out" than to have to slowly die of a broken heart as a direct result of reading your posts.
NEWGUY
Jerry has more class than you and I put together. You better watch yourself Newguy.
Whaddya want us to do? Put you up on a pedestal? Ya big 'know it all'!
1 Cor 8:2-3 NIV
2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.
Proverbs 26:12 NIV
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Galatians 5:14 NIV
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Luke 10:27
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
No matter what you think of us - you're not superior to any of us! Give it a rest!
View Presentation
Bleaeeack! Tooey! Yuck!
That was hard to read. Way too much hate in that rant.
what's it all about, alfie?
Life's way too short, man.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (I Corinthians 8:2-3)
JerryDuke: Oh, Jerry. Not you, too. And you were doing so well. What happened? This is getting sooooo tiring. Here's your latest "misquote" in context.
"Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. As concerning therefore the eating of things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."(I Corinthians 8:1-13)
The Apostle Paul was clearly addressing Christians that had the "knowledge" that there is really only one true God and therefore, with this "knowledge", could still give thanks to the one true God while eating something that was offered in sacrifice to idols. However, since not every Christian had this same "knowledge", the one who was weaker in the faith might view the one who was stronger in the faith eating something sacrificed to idols and might "unknowingly" think then that it was okay to eat things that are actually sacrificed to idols. This is what Paul was addressing. The one who was stronger in the faith and said "My knowledge allows me to eat this" and didn't care how his "knowledge" might affect someone who didn't have that same "knowledge", in effect, "knew nothing yet as he ought to know" because he wasn't "walking in love" and didn't care how his actions might negatively affect his brother. Got it? If not, I'll gladly provide you with other portions of scripture that address this very same issue. This verse that you quoted has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the verse that I quoted you. If this was supposed to be a refutation of what I wrote, then it was the most PATHETIC refutation I've ever seen. I thought you knew better than this. Perhaps I'd better reevaluate my previously held opinions of you. I hope this was a temporary "slip" on your part and that you see the obvious folly of your response.
NOTE TO ALL OF THE "CHRISTIANS" ON THIS FORUM:
If you really want to see me die a premature death, then please, I would much prefer that you just walked up to me and "blew my brains out" than to have to slowly die of a broken heart as a direct result of reading your posts.
NEWGUY
Jerry has more class than you and I put together. You better watch yourself Newguy.
Whaddya want us to do? Put you up on a pedestal? Ya big 'know it all'!
1 Cor 8:2-3 NIV
2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.
Proverbs 26:12 NIV
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Galatians 5:14 NIV
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Luke 10:27
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
No matter what you think of us - you're not superior to any of us! Give it a rest!
View Presentation
Grumpy (this suits you much better)
I don't have a problem accepting science - but I don't accept ALL science. Do you?
Is science so holy that it is above reproach?
God IS Holy and He IS above reproach (according to me).
However, man is not. So I even question the Bible - I think some of it has been mistranslated, thus skewing the message. I firmly believe that the message given to the apostles was inspired by God - but the folks who have translated it over the centuries have made mistakes, not intentionally maybe, but based on their knowledge and interpretation of their worldviews at the time of the translation. The Bible speaks to us today - as it has for centuries.
It seems that the Creation/Evolution forum is heading in a more fruitful direction. I've noticed some real interesting posts lately from some new posters. One of the ideas was something about a us being a mistake - and the number zero. I am currently studying the Apocryphon of John - where there is some reference to that. You'd really have to read it - there's no way I could boil it all down to a one sentence summation. But it does seem to have that type of theme.
I know what evolution says. I know what the Bible says. I just like to ask lots of questions to satisfy my curiousity, and I like to discuss ideas - crazy or otherwise. There are no science absolutes.
I think that if the Bible is translated correctly (not twisted) it will yield greater knowledge that will be affirmed by the latest scientific discoveries. You don't have to accept it - but I do. Hopefully - we can meet in the middle. You are firm in your beliefs, and I in mine; but if we keep debating - we just might discover something. I'm an optimist. How bout you?
(this suits you much better)I don't have a problem accepting science - but I don't accept ALL science. Do you?
Is science so holy that it is above reproach?
God IS Holy and He IS above reproach (according to me).
However, man is not. So I even question the Bible - I think some of it has been mistranslated, thus skewing the message. I firmly believe that the message given to the apostles was inspired by God - but the folks who have translated it over the centuries have made mistakes, not intentionally maybe, but based on their knowledge and interpretation of their worldviews at the time of the translation. The Bible speaks to us today - as it has for centuries.
It seems that the Creation/Evolution forum is heading in a more fruitful direction. I've noticed some real interesting posts lately from some new posters. One of the ideas was something about a us being a mistake - and the number zero. I am currently studying the Apocryphon of John - where there is some reference to that. You'd really have to read it - there's no way I could boil it all down to a one sentence summation. But it does seem to have that type of theme.
I know what evolution says. I know what the Bible says. I just like to ask lots of questions to satisfy my curiousity, and I like to discuss ideas - crazy or otherwise. There are no science absolutes.
I think that if the Bible is translated correctly (not twisted) it will yield greater knowledge that will be affirmed by the latest scientific discoveries. You don't have to accept it - but I do. Hopefully - we can meet in the middle. You are firm in your beliefs, and I in mine; but if we keep debating - we just might discover something. I'm an optimist. How bout you?
Observation/Comparison.
Unlike some 'christians' in these fora, new DOESN'T lie, twist, blaspheme and 'debate' dishonestly; nor has he had any truck with such 'christian' supporters of the downright devious and malicious ID-CS 'offensive' in the courts...where they brazenly lied to themselves and their fellow 'believers' before their 'god' and their fellow man and his courts.
Result of 'comparison': Newguy IS better than such 'false' christians. He at least EARNS respect from others, and doesn't try to STEAL it by stealth and deception.
RC.
.
Unlike some 'christians' in these fora, new DOESN'T lie, twist, blaspheme and 'debate' dishonestly; nor has he had any truck with such 'christian' supporters of the downright devious and malicious ID-CS 'offensive' in the courts...where they brazenly lied to themselves and their fellow 'believers' before their 'god' and their fellow man and his courts.
Result of 'comparison': Newguy IS better than such 'false' christians. He at least EARNS respect from others, and doesn't try to STEAL it by stealth and deception.
RC.
.
.
.....that Guest was I, of course.
RealityCheck.
.
.....that Guest was I, of course.
RealityCheck.
.
I can personally assure you that neither Jerry nor I are lying - certainly not intentionally or deliberately.
All observers will have seen that the 'wedge document'-based 'offensive' of the ID/CSers is to 'infiltrate' and 'pretend' to 'engage' science 'falsely so-called' and then try to 'convince' scientists that ID/CS pseudo-science BS is 'acceptable' as EQUAL to true science and the scientific method.
It won't wash. ANYONE 'tainted' by supporting that 'deceptive', hypocritical and 'lying/blaspheming' wedge-offensive is IPSO FACTO a liar of the worst kind. One who lies to ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING: themselves, their fellow believers, their 'god', their fellow man and his courts. Is there anyone/anything ELSE such people have not lied to/about?
I, for one, will NEVER TRUST such unscrupulous and immoral people as condone and engage in such IRRELIGIOUS activities as the present 'sneak offensive' started by ID/CSers in the courts and continuing HERE under our very noses. Such people are so deluded that they think they have a 'licence' to pervert their 'religion' for 'material' advantage in a COURT OF LAW...where religion has NO business in deciding matters of MAN'S law. If they can't tell the difference between PERJURY and TRUTH, where is the MORAL POSITION from which this present 'OFFENSIVE' has been launched...an offensive that has done more to bring ALL RELIGIONS into DISREPUTE than any other atrocity in 'god's name' has over the last 2000 yrs. Keep your 'niceness' and the 'two-facedness' that goes with it. I'm not buying it for one second. It is utter delusion to think that any truly intelligent being will be taken in.
Nuts to all who have had a hand in this scandalous 'offensive'. Shame and dishonour is to be reaped from it; nothing else.
RealityCheck.
.
It won't wash. ANYONE 'tainted' by supporting that 'deceptive', hypocritical and 'lying/blaspheming' wedge-offensive is IPSO FACTO a liar of the worst kind. One who lies to ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING: themselves, their fellow believers, their 'god', their fellow man and his courts. Is there anyone/anything ELSE such people have not lied to/about?
I, for one, will NEVER TRUST such unscrupulous and immoral people as condone and engage in such IRRELIGIOUS activities as the present 'sneak offensive' started by ID/CSers in the courts and continuing HERE under our very noses. Such people are so deluded that they think they have a 'licence' to pervert their 'religion' for 'material' advantage in a COURT OF LAW...where religion has NO business in deciding matters of MAN'S law. If they can't tell the difference between PERJURY and TRUTH, where is the MORAL POSITION from which this present 'OFFENSIVE' has been launched...an offensive that has done more to bring ALL RELIGIONS into DISREPUTE than any other atrocity in 'god's name' has over the last 2000 yrs. Keep your 'niceness' and the 'two-facedness' that goes with it. I'm not buying it for one second. It is utter delusion to think that any truly intelligent being will be taken in.
Nuts to all who have had a hand in this scandalous 'offensive'. Shame and dishonour is to be reaped from it; nothing else.
RealityCheck.
.
Bleaeeack! Tooey! Yuck!That was hard to read. Way too much hate in that rant.
what's it all about, alfie?
Life's way too short, man.
The 'disconnect' is awesome!
Not only can't they distinguish between PERJURY and TRUTH; they apparently can't distinguish between FACT and HATE! No hope for those who WILL NOT see themselves as others see them 'for real'.
RealityCheck.
.
Not only can't they distinguish between PERJURY and TRUTH; they apparently can't distinguish between FACT and HATE! No hope for those who WILL NOT see themselves as others see them 'for real'.
RealityCheck.
.
The difference between Newguy and Messenger, Dad1, Soloved, and Jerry Duke are huge. First of all, Newguy doesn't misquote...or if he does, he admits he made a mistake, and corrects it. I can't say the same for others. Newguy has his morals and beliefs and he actually seems to follow them. Its not a matter of what your beliefs are in my opinion, its a matter if you can follow them, and Newguy does, and it appears that the rest do not.....in this forum you do not.
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 2 2005, 11:37 AM)
The difference between Newguy and Messenger, Dad1, Soloved, and Jerry Duke are huge. First of all, Newguy doesn't misquote...or if he does, he admits he made a mistake, and corrects it. I can't say the same for others. Newguy has his morals and beliefs and he actually seems to follow them. Its not a matter of what your beliefs are in my opinion, its a matter if you can follow them, and Newguy does, and it appears that the rest do not.....in this forum you do not.
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
What he said!
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
What he said!
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (newguy+Dec 1 2005, 06:41 PM)
... SoLoved ...
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
How to be Saved
Creation Proof
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)How to be Saved
Creation Proof
Jerry,
I'll deliver the message.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NewGuy,
We would but evidence is wasted on you, as the evidence points out of course.
I'll deliver the message.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NewGuy,
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 2 2005, 12:37 PM)
The difference between Newguy and Messenger, Dad1, Soloved, and Jerry Duke are huge. First of all, Newguy doesn't misquote...or if he does, he admits he made a mistake, and corrects it. I can't say the same for others. Newguy has his morals and beliefs and he actually seems to follow them. Its not a matter of what your beliefs are in my opinion, its a matter if you can follow them, and Newguy does, and it appears that the rest do not.....in this forum you do not.
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
There's your pedestal NewGuy. It's made of glass, be careful not to break it.
Enjoy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steveo,
Other than exalting NewGuy - would you please continue the thought-line you were on to describe the differences?
If you're going to call us liars, immoral, Biblically illiterate, fundamentalists - You should be prepared to provide evidence.
I think that you'd rather we all fit into the box or idea that you have of what you want Christians to be. You can shoot an animal that is inside a box. You have to be a skillful hunter to shoot them outside of the box. But why you wish to shoot at all, ah yes, that is the question.
Thank you,
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
There's your pedestal NewGuy. It's made of glass, be careful not to break it.
Enjoy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steveo,
Other than exalting NewGuy - would you please continue the thought-line you were on to describe the differences?
If you're going to call us liars, immoral, Biblically illiterate, fundamentalists - You should be prepared to provide evidence.
I think that you'd rather we all fit into the box or idea that you have of what you want Christians to be. You can shoot an animal that is inside a box. You have to be a skillful hunter to shoot them outside of the box. But why you wish to shoot at all, ah yes, that is the question.
Thank you,
QUOTE
If you're going to call us liars, immoral, Biblically illiterate, fundamentalists - You should be prepared to provide evidence.
We would but evidence is wasted on you, as the evidence points out of course.
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 3 2005, 08:48 PM)
Jerry,
I'll deliver the message.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NewGuy,
I'll deliver the message.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NewGuy,
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 2 2005, 12:37 PM)
The difference between Newguy and Messenger, Dad1, Soloved, and Jerry Duke are huge. First of all, Newguy doesn't misquote...or if he does, he admits he made a mistake, and corrects it. I can't say the same for others. Newguy has his morals and beliefs and he actually seems to follow them. Its not a matter of what your beliefs are in my opinion, its a matter if you can follow them, and Newguy does, and it appears that the rest do not.....in this forum you do not.
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
There's your pedestal NewGuy. It's made of glass, be careful not to break it.
Enjoy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steveo,
Other than exalting NewGuy - would you please continue the thought-line you were on to describe the differences?
If you're going to call us liars, immoral, Biblically illiterate, fundamentalists - You should be prepared to provide evidence.
I think that you'd rather we all fit into the box or idea that you have of what you want Christians to be. You can shoot an animal that is inside a box. You have to be a skillful hunter to shoot them outside of the box. But why you wish to shoot at all, ah yes, that is the question.
Thank you,
MessengerofSatan: So you're seeking to join forces with JerryDuke, are you? What do you hope to become, the "Dukes of Hazard"?
Any "pedestals" certainly weren't built by me. As a wise preacher of old once said: "Don't put me up on a pedestal or God will have to knock me down." If you could actually absorb anything that is written(other than SoLoved's "dictation", that is), then you would understand that I have REPEATEDLY stated that a large percentage of my personal fellowship with God has been in the form of personal correction. The only thing that I've "exalted" is God's Word which you(continually) and Jerry(of late) "cast down". I'll provide proof of this when I answer one of your other posts shortly. Oh, and by the way, if I'm the one who's supposedly "in the box", then why isn't Steveo "shooting" at me??? You're own writings refute your own ridiculous claims. Keep your "fruits". Sad to say, they're the closest thing you've got to the "fruits of the Spirit".
P.S. I noticed there's no "banana". What happened? "SoLoved" go home?
We would but evidence is wasted on you, as the evidence points out of course.
.
.
Nessus.
hahaha! Wasted on the Simple/dadl etc types, mate...because the subtlety and import of those last seven words will fly over their empty heads. As usual.
RC.
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Prayer for revival
God our Father, I pray that you would help everyone to see that there is no evidence to support the belief that human beings descended from dumb animals. Help those in authority everywhere, to see to it that if this idea is taught at all in the schools, that it should be identified as a thoroughly debunked relic of a barbarous time when wicked men in high places were perverting the disciplines of science to justify their own bigotry and hatred. Help those, Lord, who believe they are superior to others to know that they have an appointment with death, just like those who are the least esteemed, and that they will have to answer to you, their Creator, for how they have lived their lives.
Help those, Lord, who are confused by the competing claims of humanistic religions, to know that there is only one Saviour of mankind, only one name given to mankind whereby we must be saved, and that none of the great men who have exalted themselves or who have been exalted by their followers can forgive sins or raise the dead to life. Help everyone to know it is only your dear Son, Jesus Christ, who we must receive in order to be saved from eternal damnation in hell. Help those who hate you, Lord, to be ashamed of the wickedness of their own hearts and to desire something better in life than being the slaves of murderers and liars, and the fodder of devils.
Deliver us from evil, Lord, and cleanse our land from the abominable effects of teaching people that they are nothing but soulless animals. Deliver us from the immoral lust and abortion industry which entices people to conceive children in sin and then to kill them as sacrifices to enrich the demigods of the underworld of human flesh markets. Deliver us from the ubiquitous humanist/evolutionist propaganda that pollutes our land. Deliver us from the corrupt educational sys
tem that denies the godly purpose for which it was created and promotes myth making rather than the pursuit of knowledge.
Help your people, Lord, to throw off the evil oppressors. Help us to build schools where truth is honored and your people are taught to love and honor you with all their hearts and to love their neighbors as they love themselves. Help those who do not know you, Lord, to desire to know the living God who created the heavens and the earth. Help each one to recognize you, Lord God, our heavenly Father, in the loving person of your Son, Jesus Christ, who laid down his own life that both his friends and his enemies might be set free from the condemnation of death and made alive in you, forever.
Forgive us, Lord, for our petty disputes, our doubts and fears. Revive us, Lord! Fill us afresh, Lord, with your Holy Spirit and make us to be like Christ himself. Help us to know your will, Lord, and to do your will in humble obedience. Help us to bow before you in sincere humility. Help us to dedicate ourselves completely to you and to follow in the way of holiness established by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Lord God in heaven, Father of all mankind, hear our prayer, forgive our sins and heal our land. Glorify thy great name, Lord. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (II Chronicles 7:14)
The Holy Bible
How to be SavedCreation Proof
AMEN
-Diamonds can now be ****manufactured by man in a very short period of time****[my asterisks, added for highlighting...RC]. Apollo Diamond, girls' newest best friend (and apparently technology's too), can now make diamonds using a process that scientists claim the earth took billions of years to develop.
QUOTE
That's right — making diamonds. Real ones, all but indistinguishable from the stones formed by a billion or so years' worth of intense pressure, later to be sold at Tiffany's.
See the article: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinno...-diamonds_x.htm
-Now I ask you, is it so strange to believe that a higher power than ourselves can do the same, only better, and faster?
.
.
No wonder such as these have no idea of science and the scientific method. Their 'religious method' does not allow them to even contmplate the possibility of contradictions in what they 'claim', let alone 'spot' them when they occur during their rants.
I ask you: Does Mess's acceptance/recognition that MAN CAN MAKE DIAMONDS QUICKLY AND EASILY in any way accord with Mess's later 'disconnected' assertion/comment:
"-Now I ask you, is it so strange to believe that a higher power than ourselves can do the same, only better, and faster?"?
First he/she appeals to scientific authority to state that man can do something faster than 'god'; and THEN does something daft like maintaining that 'god' does it faster! Typical 'wants-it-both-ways' idiot non-scientist depending on the 'religious method' for its thought processes. Irremedial disconnect, I'm afraid.
Too bad.
RealityCheck.
PS: And they wonder why we think these non-critical-thinking idiots ARE DANGEROUS if they ever get into positions of power over us, where the next idiot-leader can convince them of ANYTHING as long as they 'dress it up' in 'inerrant bibble-babble' that must be obeyed despite any rhyme or reason. Oh sad Mess.
Oh Ee Ah ReallyCheckedOut,
So you feel the need to have power over someone heh? How very sad that you can not get along with all types of people Oh RC.
But since everything you know about science comes from pre-selected textbooks - you have no choice but to ignore the opportunity for a civil debate. You can't help it, you don't know any better. How I pity you. You will not go far with this attitude. It's time for change. Is there anything I can do to help you with this issue? You do have issues, and I would sincerely like to help. Don't worry, I won't leave - I don't think you're hopeless yet. I feel your pain.
Stakkar RC.
You completely misunderstood the diamond bit. But in your condition, that's to be expected. Perhaps you should study and read a little Confucius or Buddhism. It may help to calm your soul so you can think better. Or try a little Krishna - good stuff there, can't argue with that. I enjoy reading them all - as I've said many times, I'm an all inclusive person - I don't leave anyone out, even atheists. I just looked up some stuff on Krishna, etc. - and now I feel so much more strong, and calm - I'll have to go back there again occasionally - you should too.
Take care OK Oh RC? You deserve a break today. Go sit in a corner with a good book and get off ......the computer.
Oh Ee Ah ReallyCheckedOut,
So you feel the need to have power over someone heh? How very sad that you can not get along with all types of people Oh RC.
But since everything you know about science comes from pre-selected textbooks - you have no choice but to ignore the opportunity for a civil debate. You can't help it, you don't know any better. How I pity you. You will not go far with this attitude. It's time for change. Is there anything I can do to help you with this issue? You do have issues, and I would sincerely like to help. Don't worry, I won't leave - I don't think you're hopeless yet. I feel your pain.
Stakkar RC.
You completely misunderstood the diamond bit. But in your condition, that's to be expected. Perhaps you should study and read a little Confucius or Buddhism. It may help to calm your soul so you can think better. Or try a little Krishna - good stuff there, can't argue with that. I enjoy reading them all - as I've said many times, I'm an all inclusive person - I don't leave anyone out, even atheists. I just looked up some stuff on Krishna, etc. - and now I feel so much more strong, and calm - I'll have to go back there again occasionally - you should too.
Take care OK Oh RC? You deserve a break today. Go sit in a corner with a good book and get off ......the computer.
.
.
Oh so-kind Mess.
Please point out for everyone here where/what EXACTLY my 'misunderstanding was; being careful of course to relate it to the two contradictory statements of yours to which I referred in my post [and which I see you have 'conveniently twisted' right out of the picture you would present]. Thanks for strengthening my wariness of Messengers bearing pseudo-gifts.
And for your further edification (if that is possible still), I have spent most of my life since 9yrs old doing MY OWN independent and original scientific researches; some of which leads me to question and to try to correct current scientific orthodoxy, and doing so by demonstration and/or scientific method arguments, and not religious/superstitious ones. Thank you very much for assuming that I am as stupid and brainwashed as yourself; I'm sure you meant that as a 'compliment', heh? Hypocrite and arrogant 'knower' of other people's life and knowledge-source. Pathetic as always, mate; you can't help yourself; you betray your true nature at every turn; even when you're not even trying to be a 'nasty' "christian", you inevitably succeed nonetheless to confirm my opinion of you.
Please in future don't try to be 'nice' and 'forgiving' and 'understanding' and 'helpful'...no-one deserves to have so much hypocritical garbage dumped on then in the name of 'religion' of ANY sort, but especially of your sort. Don't you ever learn anything? Have you stopped learning altogether because your 'bible' told you to? Have a backbone and 'listen' rather than 'holier than thouing' all over the place. Your false sweetness is worse than your petulance and malice-aforethought. It won't wash until you admit that you are not here to debate anything, but to patronise your obvious betters with your insufferable 'ickyness' of a "christian" faith falsely-so-called (as you people are wont to say of our science).
Repent and save yourself before it's too late. If you can give such advice here to others, how about taking it from others in the same spirit you intended your advice to be taken by others. Hypocrite.
End of another calm and loving sermonising session brought to you for the benefit of all the SoLoved types here who equate 'sermons' with 'debate'. Ciao.
RC.
.
And probably my favorite thing about newguy compared to the rest is that Newguy does not pretend to be an expert in things that he clearly is not. Newguy has admitted at not being an expert in science, and when he talks about science, it is usually in the form of a question. Newguy has stated that he believes Intelligent Design to be true, and God to be the designer, but either because he knows it is belief, not science, or because he is not aware of its 'scientific merit' he does not argue about it in that way. It is very difficult to refrain from arguing about something you disagree with, but don't know much about. I can't do it, obviously, since I am here on a religion thread and I know very little about religion, but Newguy does, and its something that is quite impressive. So to the rest of you fundamentalists....take a lesson from Newguy, and follow your beliefs even when its hard, not just when its easy!
Newguy, goodluck with the upcoming birth of your new child, and congratulations.
There's your pedestal NewGuy. It's made of glass, be careful not to break it.
Enjoy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steveo,
Other than exalting NewGuy - would you please continue the thought-line you were on to describe the differences?
If you're going to call us liars, immoral, Biblically illiterate, fundamentalists - You should be prepared to provide evidence.
I think that you'd rather we all fit into the box or idea that you have of what you want Christians to be. You can shoot an animal that is inside a box. You have to be a skillful hunter to shoot them outside of the box. But why you wish to shoot at all, ah yes, that is the question.
Thank you,
MessengerofSatan: So you're seeking to join forces with JerryDuke, are you? What do you hope to become, the "Dukes of Hazard"?
Any "pedestals" certainly weren't built by me. As a wise preacher of old once said: "Don't put me up on a pedestal or God will have to knock me down." If you could actually absorb anything that is written(other than SoLoved's "dictation", that is), then you would understand that I have REPEATEDLY stated that a large percentage of my personal fellowship with God has been in the form of personal correction. The only thing that I've "exalted" is God's Word which you(continually) and Jerry(of late) "cast down". I'll provide proof of this when I answer one of your other posts shortly. Oh, and by the way, if I'm the one who's supposedly "in the box", then why isn't Steveo "shooting" at me??? You're own writings refute your own ridiculous claims. Keep your "fruits". Sad to say, they're the closest thing you've got to the "fruits of the Spirit".
P.S. I noticed there's no "banana". What happened? "SoLoved" go home?
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 2 2005, 03:39 AM)
I can personally assure you that neither Jerry nor I are lying - certainly not intentionally or deliberately.
MessengerofSatan: This isn't the post that I referred to in my last response, but I just couldn't resist. You can "assure" us that you're not lying but, then again, maybe you are? I literally(I'm serious) have to either shake my head or hold it when I read your posts. Well, thanks for the "assurance". I'm sure we'll all sleep much better tonight. Thanks again.
MessengerofSatan: This isn't the post that I referred to in my last response, but I just couldn't resist. You can "assure" us that you're not lying but, then again, maybe you are? I literally(I'm serious) have to either shake my head or hold it when I read your posts. Well, thanks for the "assurance". I'm sure we'll all sleep much better tonight. Thanks again.
QUOTE (Nessus+Dec 3 2005, 09:11 PM)
QUOTE
If you're going to call us liars, immoral, Biblically illiterate, fundamentalists - You should be prepared to provide evidence.
We would but evidence is wasted on you, as the evidence points out of course.
.
.
Nessus.
hahaha! Wasted on the Simple/dadl etc types, mate...because the subtlety and import of those last seven words will fly over their empty heads. As usual.
RC.
.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.Prayer for revival
God our Father, I pray that you would help everyone to see that there is no evidence to support the belief that human beings descended from dumb animals. Help those in authority everywhere, to see to it that if this idea is taught at all in the schools, that it should be identified as a thoroughly debunked relic of a barbarous time when wicked men in high places were perverting the disciplines of science to justify their own bigotry and hatred. Help those, Lord, who believe they are superior to others to know that they have an appointment with death, just like those who are the least esteemed, and that they will have to answer to you, their Creator, for how they have lived their lives.
Help those, Lord, who are confused by the competing claims of humanistic religions, to know that there is only one Saviour of mankind, only one name given to mankind whereby we must be saved, and that none of the great men who have exalted themselves or who have been exalted by their followers can forgive sins or raise the dead to life. Help everyone to know it is only your dear Son, Jesus Christ, who we must receive in order to be saved from eternal damnation in hell. Help those who hate you, Lord, to be ashamed of the wickedness of their own hearts and to desire something better in life than being the slaves of murderers and liars, and the fodder of devils.
Deliver us from evil, Lord, and cleanse our land from the abominable effects of teaching people that they are nothing but soulless animals. Deliver us from the immoral lust and abortion industry which entices people to conceive children in sin and then to kill them as sacrifices to enrich the demigods of the underworld of human flesh markets. Deliver us from the ubiquitous humanist/evolutionist propaganda that pollutes our land. Deliver us from the corrupt educational sys
tem that denies the godly purpose for which it was created and promotes myth making rather than the pursuit of knowledge.Help your people, Lord, to throw off the evil oppressors. Help us to build schools where truth is honored and your people are taught to love and honor you with all their hearts and to love their neighbors as they love themselves. Help those who do not know you, Lord, to desire to know the living God who created the heavens and the earth. Help each one to recognize you, Lord God, our heavenly Father, in the loving person of your Son, Jesus Christ, who laid down his own life that both his friends and his enemies might be set free from the condemnation of death and made alive in you, forever.
Forgive us, Lord, for our petty disputes, our doubts and fears. Revive us, Lord! Fill us afresh, Lord, with your Holy Spirit and make us to be like Christ himself. Help us to know your will, Lord, and to do your will in humble obedience. Help us to bow before you in sincere humility. Help us to dedicate ourselves completely to you and to follow in the way of holiness established by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Lord God in heaven, Father of all mankind, hear our prayer, forgive our sins and heal our land. Glorify thy great name, Lord. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (II Chronicles 7:14)
The Holy Bible
How to be SavedCreation Proof
AMEN
Ahhhh Mess & Jerry.
All that malarky presupposes that 'he/she' is LISTENING to YOU.
But I very much doubt 'he/she' has much time for you perjurors, twisters and miscreants with malice-aforethought in your hearts. Whoever it is you're praying to, I wager it's NOT 'god', but the 'other' bloke. Eternity is nigh, mateys; are you prepared, heh? Will you repent your blasphemous perjuring ways? Your choice, of course.
RealityCheck.
PS: See folks, 'sermonising' is easy; anyone can do it, even an 'atheist'!....it's practising and learning to think and reason for yourself WITHOUT 'bible-training-wheels' that's hard....and apparently WAY too hard for all those zany, crazy-creationist twister-folk and the like. RC.
All that malarky presupposes that 'he/she' is LISTENING to YOU.
But I very much doubt 'he/she' has much time for you perjurors, twisters and miscreants with malice-aforethought in your hearts. Whoever it is you're praying to, I wager it's NOT 'god', but the 'other' bloke. Eternity is nigh, mateys; are you prepared, heh? Will you repent your blasphemous perjuring ways? Your choice, of course.
RealityCheck.
PS: See folks, 'sermonising' is easy; anyone can do it, even an 'atheist'!....it's practising and learning to think and reason for yourself WITHOUT 'bible-training-wheels' that's hard....and apparently WAY too hard for all those zany, crazy-creationist twister-folk and the like. RC.
Oh Ah EE RC,
But God does have all the time in the world for you.
You are full of hate and bitterness.
What's it all about, Alfie?
(by that I mean - life. You missed that the last time I said it)
But God does have all the time in the world for you.
You are full of hate and bitterness.
What's it all about, Alfie?
(by that I mean - life. You missed that the last time I said it)
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 5 2005, 09:22 PM)
Oh Ah EE RC,
But God does have all the time in the world for you.
You are full of hate and bitterness.
What's it all about, Alfie?
(by that I mean - life. You missed that the last time I said it)
.
.
As to hate and bitterness: You and SoLoved brought that into this place, not us.
As to whatever it may be all about: It is a self-professed fact that you and your like are worse than clueless.
And people in glass houses should not throw stones; you 'christian' falsely-so-called.
RC.
.
But God does have all the time in the world for you.
You are full of hate and bitterness.
What's it all about, Alfie?
(by that I mean - life. You missed that the last time I said it)
.
.
As to hate and bitterness: You and SoLoved brought that into this place, not us.
As to whatever it may be all about: It is a self-professed fact that you and your like are worse than clueless.
And people in glass houses should not throw stones; you 'christian' falsely-so-called.
RC.
.
-Holes in the theory of evolution can be found in the fossil record. Today's non-extinct forms show no serious or significant changes from that of their ancestors. Scientists claim that a dramatic increase in intelligence coincides with the first record of 'created' humans.
-Breeding within geographical areas among like species is responsible for the variations between the kinds. This is the same reason we have different races - stronger genes prevail and when no new genes are introduced, a race, or kind, develops.
-Bodies are made like machines, intelligent structures designed with a purpose. Close examination of the human body reveal unique parts (DNA) not found in any other living thing. Additionally, there does not exist a mechanism in any other living thing that even could cause or enable it to become human.
-Animals remain in their own same species as well. They do not, as some suggest, just walk around selecting and picking up parts (DNA) here and there as they see a need. Each creature is endowed with everything it needs to survive. The billion year faith factor does not change the facts.
Needless to say, since it's been said many times before, but I'll say it anyway……the odds of even a tiny bacteria occurring by accident are next to nil, much less sun, stars, sky, land, water, ocean creatures, land creatures, and of course man. The odds of this occurring actually are nil. (translate: impossible, did not - could not - will not happen) Adding billions of years to the theory doesn't change the facts.
-Scientists are certainly not willfully ignoring the evidence, are they? They have obviously discovered many things we would not know if it were not for their curious minds and passionate interests. Perhaps what is lacking is a connection to the order of things, and to other things - like spirit, beauty, love, good and evil, and how it connects to a higher power than ourselves. Is it so strange to believe in a higher power who creates, who does the very same thing that we do -only better?
-It was no accident that Jesus died between what ended up to be the good thief and the bad thief. Jesus is the bridge between good and evil. Seeing the good in Jesus - removes the bad in the individual with sight to see it. He is even our connection between knowing and not knowing, insofar as it relates to science.
-When man was finally able to see the earth in all its glory, away from the planet, it appeared to them that Earth was uniquely designed for habitation. This must be explained. Billions of years do not explain it. Not when faced with the following facts:
-Diamonds can now be manufactured by man in a very short period of time. Apollo Diamond, girls' newest best friend (and apparently technology's too), can now make diamonds using a process that scientists claim the earth took billions of years to develop.
QUOTE
That's right — making diamonds. Real ones, all but indistinguishable from the stones formed by a billion or so years' worth of intense pressure, later to be sold at Tiffany's.
See the article: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinno...-diamonds_x.htm
-Now I ask you, is it so strange to believe that a higher power than ourselves can do the same, only better, and faster?
Your argument is not with your fellow man - it is with your Maker. You can holler until you're blue in the face that he can't make a diamond mountain in a day, but it won't change the facts. If there is no Maker, then neither can you make.
So why do we even bother to debate or discuss it? Because we're all connected and we want to share a common bond - we want to believe, in something. When we find that something, and we are so convinced, we want to share it. There's nothing wrong with that. But have no fear. Even if we all knew everything, we would not all die of too much knowledge (actually we are destroyed for our 'lack of knowledge'). It's OK if christians know about the pursuits of science and it's OK if scientists believe in a Higher Power, or at least share the same room with someone who does.
I mean really, think about it. The message of the Bible has brought us to where we are today. True love and sacrifice was introduced to us 2000 years ago - showing us how to bridge the gap between good and evil. We have been progressing towards understanding ever since. Without it - we would all be living like neanderthals/cavemen.
This was one of my very first posts - no hate, no hypocrisy, just an honest search for the truth, and a desire to debate a few issues. A few have responded to a few of the issues, but that all stopped when you guys began to accuse me of being every Tom, Richard, and Harry -past, present and future. You attack every Christian - both their comments and their person - no matter why they come here. That's the definition of a troll.
-Breeding within geographical areas among like species is responsible for the variations between the kinds. This is the same reason we have different races - stronger genes prevail and when no new genes are introduced, a race, or kind, develops.
-Bodies are made like machines, intelligent structures designed with a purpose. Close examination of the human body reveal unique parts (DNA) not found in any other living thing. Additionally, there does not exist a mechanism in any other living thing that even could cause or enable it to become human.
-Animals remain in their own same species as well. They do not, as some suggest, just walk around selecting and picking up parts (DNA) here and there as they see a need. Each creature is endowed with everything it needs to survive. The billion year faith factor does not change the facts.
Needless to say, since it's been said many times before, but I'll say it anyway……the odds of even a tiny bacteria occurring by accident are next to nil, much less sun, stars, sky, land, water, ocean creatures, land creatures, and of course man. The odds of this occurring actually are nil. (translate: impossible, did not - could not - will not happen) Adding billions of years to the theory doesn't change the facts.
-Scientists are certainly not willfully ignoring the evidence, are they? They have obviously discovered many things we would not know if it were not for their curious minds and passionate interests. Perhaps what is lacking is a connection to the order of things, and to other things - like spirit, beauty, love, good and evil, and how it connects to a higher power than ourselves. Is it so strange to believe in a higher power who creates, who does the very same thing that we do -only better?
-It was no accident that Jesus died between what ended up to be the good thief and the bad thief. Jesus is the bridge between good and evil. Seeing the good in Jesus - removes the bad in the individual with sight to see it. He is even our connection between knowing and not knowing, insofar as it relates to science.
-When man was finally able to see the earth in all its glory, away from the planet, it appeared to them that Earth was uniquely designed for habitation. This must be explained. Billions of years do not explain it. Not when faced with the following facts:
-Diamonds can now be manufactured by man in a very short period of time. Apollo Diamond, girls' newest best friend (and apparently technology's too), can now make diamonds using a process that scientists claim the earth took billions of years to develop.
QUOTE
That's right — making diamonds. Real ones, all but indistinguishable from the stones formed by a billion or so years' worth of intense pressure, later to be sold at Tiffany's.
See the article: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinno...-diamonds_x.htm
-Now I ask you, is it so strange to believe that a higher power than ourselves can do the same, only better, and faster?
Your argument is not with your fellow man - it is with your Maker. You can holler until you're blue in the face that he can't make a diamond mountain in a day, but it won't change the facts. If there is no Maker, then neither can you make.
So why do we even bother to debate or discuss it? Because we're all connected and we want to share a common bond - we want to believe, in something. When we find that something, and we are so convinced, we want to share it. There's nothing wrong with that. But have no fear. Even if we all knew everything, we would not all die of too much knowledge (actually we are destroyed for our 'lack of knowledge'). It's OK if christians know about the pursuits of science and it's OK if scientists believe in a Higher Power, or at least share the same room with someone who does.
I mean really, think about it. The message of the Bible has brought us to where we are today. True love and sacrifice was introduced to us 2000 years ago - showing us how to bridge the gap between good and evil. We have been progressing towards understanding ever since. Without it - we would all be living like neanderthals/cavemen.
This was one of my very first posts - no hate, no hypocrisy, just an honest search for the truth, and a desire to debate a few issues. A few have responded to a few of the issues, but that all stopped when you guys began to accuse me of being every Tom, Richard, and Harry -past, present and future. You attack every Christian - both their comments and their person - no matter why they come here. That's the definition of a troll.
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 6 2005, 12:18 AM)
-Diamonds can now be ****manufactured by man in a very short period of time****[my asterisks, added for highlighting...RC]. Apollo Diamond, girls' newest best friend (and apparently technology's too), can now make diamonds using a process that scientists claim the earth took billions of years to develop.
QUOTE
That's right — making diamonds. Real ones, all but indistinguishable from the stones formed by a billion or so years' worth of intense pressure, later to be sold at Tiffany's.
See the article: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinno...-diamonds_x.htm
-Now I ask you, is it so strange to believe that a higher power than ourselves can do the same, only better, and faster?
.
.
No wonder such as these have no idea of science and the scientific method. Their 'religious method' does not allow them to even contmplate the possibility of contradictions in what they 'claim', let alone 'spot' them when they occur during their rants.
I ask you: Does Mess's acceptance/recognition that MAN CAN MAKE DIAMONDS QUICKLY AND EASILY in any way accord with Mess's later 'disconnected' assertion/comment:
"-Now I ask you, is it so strange to believe that a higher power than ourselves can do the same, only better, and faster?"?
First he/she appeals to scientific authority to state that man can do something faster than 'god'; and THEN does something daft like maintaining that 'god' does it faster! Typical 'wants-it-both-ways' idiot non-scientist depending on the 'religious method' for its thought processes. Irremedial disconnect, I'm afraid.
Too bad.
RealityCheck.
PS: And they wonder why we think these non-critical-thinking idiots ARE DANGEROUS if they ever get into positions of power over us, where the next idiot-leader can convince them of ANYTHING as long as they 'dress it up' in 'inerrant bibble-babble' that must be obeyed despite any rhyme or reason. Oh sad Mess.
QUOTE
PS: And they wonder why we think these non-critical-thinking idiots ARE DANGEROUS if they ever get into positions of power over us, where the next idiot-leader can convince them of ANYTHING as long as they 'dress it up' in 'inerrant bibble-babble' that must be obeyed despite any rhyme or reason. Oh sad Mess.
Oh Ee Ah ReallyCheckedOut,
So you feel the need to have power over someone heh? How very sad that you can not get along with all types of people Oh RC.
But since everything you know about science comes from pre-selected textbooks - you have no choice but to ignore the opportunity for a civil debate. You can't help it, you don't know any better. How I pity you. You will not go far with this attitude. It's time for change. Is there anything I can do to help you with this issue? You do have issues, and I would sincerely like to help. Don't worry, I won't leave - I don't think you're hopeless yet. I feel your pain.
Stakkar RC.
You completely misunderstood the diamond bit. But in your condition, that's to be expected. Perhaps you should study and read a little Confucius or Buddhism. It may help to calm your soul so you can think better. Or try a little Krishna - good stuff there, can't argue with that. I enjoy reading them all - as I've said many times, I'm an all inclusive person - I don't leave anyone out, even atheists. I just looked up some stuff on Krishna, etc. - and now I feel so much more strong, and calm - I'll have to go back there again occasionally - you should too.
Take care OK Oh RC? You deserve a break today. Go sit in a corner with a good book and get off ......the computer.
At the risk of repeating somewhing I may already have said (a curse of being aged), a remark about diamond formation and synthesis.
There is no reason to believe that the time required for diamonds to form is necessarily any longer than the time required to synthesisze them.
Diamonds do NOT require billions of years to form and I feel reasonably sure that no scientist would make such a claim. They may simmer down in the mantle for millions of years after formation before they are carried to near-surface in kimberlite pipes.
I doubt that General Electric has publicly documented how long their synthesis process takes, but it could range from hours to days, probably.
The same phyical processes operate in nature as well as the laboratory.
There is no reason to believe that the time required for diamonds to form is necessarily any longer than the time required to synthesisze them.
Diamonds do NOT require billions of years to form and I feel reasonably sure that no scientist would make such a claim. They may simmer down in the mantle for millions of years after formation before they are carried to near-surface in kimberlite pipes.
I doubt that General Electric has publicly documented how long their synthesis process takes, but it could range from hours to days, probably.
The same phyical processes operate in nature as well as the laboratory.
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 6 2005, 04:30 AM)
QUOTE
PS: And they wonder why we think these non-critical-thinking idiots ARE DANGEROUS if they ever get into positions of power over us, where the next idiot-leader can convince them of ANYTHING as long as they 'dress it up' in 'inerrant bibble-babble' that must be obeyed despite any rhyme or reason. Oh sad Mess.
Oh Ee Ah ReallyCheckedOut,
So you feel the need to have power over someone heh? How very sad that you can not get along with all types of people Oh RC.
But since everything you know about science comes from pre-selected textbooks - you have no choice but to ignore the opportunity for a civil debate. You can't help it, you don't know any better. How I pity you. You will not go far with this attitude. It's time for change. Is there anything I can do to help you with this issue? You do have issues, and I would sincerely like to help. Don't worry, I won't leave - I don't think you're hopeless yet. I feel your pain.
Stakkar RC.
You completely misunderstood the diamond bit. But in your condition, that's to be expected. Perhaps you should study and read a little Confucius or Buddhism. It may help to calm your soul so you can think better. Or try a little Krishna - good stuff there, can't argue with that. I enjoy reading them all - as I've said many times, I'm an all inclusive person - I don't leave anyone out, even atheists. I just looked up some stuff on Krishna, etc. - and now I feel so much more strong, and calm - I'll have to go back there again occasionally - you should too.
Take care OK Oh RC? You deserve a break today. Go sit in a corner with a good book and get off ......the computer.
.
.
Oh so-kind Mess.
Please point out for everyone here where/what EXACTLY my 'misunderstanding was; being careful of course to relate it to the two contradictory statements of yours to which I referred in my post [and which I see you have 'conveniently twisted' right out of the picture you would present]. Thanks for strengthening my wariness of Messengers bearing pseudo-gifts.
And for your further edification (if that is possible still), I have spent most of my life since 9yrs old doing MY OWN independent and original scientific researches; some of which leads me to question and to try to correct current scientific orthodoxy, and doing so by demonstration and/or scientific method arguments, and not religious/superstitious ones. Thank you very much for assuming that I am as stupid and brainwashed as yourself; I'm sure you meant that as a 'compliment', heh? Hypocrite and arrogant 'knower' of other people's life and knowledge-source. Pathetic as always, mate; you can't help yourself; you betray your true nature at every turn; even when you're not even trying to be a 'nasty' "christian", you inevitably succeed nonetheless to confirm my opinion of you.
Please in future don't try to be 'nice' and 'forgiving' and 'understanding' and 'helpful'...no-one deserves to have so much hypocritical garbage dumped on then in the name of 'religion' of ANY sort, but especially of your sort. Don't you ever learn anything? Have you stopped learning altogether because your 'bible' told you to? Have a backbone and 'listen' rather than 'holier than thouing' all over the place. Your false sweetness is worse than your petulance and malice-aforethought. It won't wash until you admit that you are not here to debate anything, but to patronise your obvious betters with your insufferable 'ickyness' of a "christian" faith falsely-so-called (as you people are wont to say of our science).
Repent and save yourself before it's too late. If you can give such advice here to others, how about taking it from others in the same spirit you intended your advice to be taken by others. Hypocrite.
End of another calm and loving sermonising session brought to you for the benefit of all the SoLoved types here who equate 'sermons' with 'debate'. Ciao.
RC.
.
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