http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/02/17...s.ap/index.html
All you have to do is make abortion illegal and it goes away right?
We're clearly doing something wrong in this world.
QUOTE
We're clearly doing something wrong in this world.
there is not enough punishment for the mothers who commit murder by abortion. I recommend that the court should treat abortion as a criminal offense and put the door open for persecution and even life imprisonment or execution. Then it wont be a common thing.
QUOTE
In Zimbabwe termination may take place only at a designated hospital, with the written permission of the hospital superintendent; in cases of suspected birth defects, or life and death situations, the authority of two medical practitioners is also required. For rape, a certificate by a magistrate is needed, and is issued only after consideration of a police report and an interview with the victim.
The laborious process of satisfying these conditions, coupled with the fact that legal abortions are not free, have led to a growing 'black market' for the procedure, where back street terminations are often performed by unskilled personnel in unhygienic surroundings.
Illegal, self-inflicted abortion methods are thought to include the consumption of detergents, strong tea, alcohol mixes and malaria tablets; other methods include the use of knitting needles, sharpened reeds and hangers.
The laborious process of satisfying these conditions, coupled with the fact that legal abortions are not free, have led to a growing 'black market' for the procedure, where back street terminations are often performed by unskilled personnel in unhygienic surroundings.
Illegal, self-inflicted abortion methods are thought to include the consumption of detergents, strong tea, alcohol mixes and malaria tablets; other methods include the use of knitting needles, sharpened reeds and hangers.
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=46383
The problem isn't that these are evil women who like to kill their own children as suggested by drude. Its the lack of empathy shown by the Zimbabwean government. They can't seem to understand not all women in Zimbabwe can afford to pay for an abortion or bring up yet another child. This is why they end up choosing the black market abortion route.
By the way the dead foetus's in the gutters are the result of Black market abortion which is already illegal. The only way forward in Zimbabwe is free abortions for women if they fulfill the requirements they are required to fulfill in Britain. Before abortions were legal in Britain there were thousands of "black market" abortions taking place every year. Now there are nearly none. It really is the way forward.
My comment was regarding that we're doing something wrong if such desperation and poverty exists. Abortion is viewed as murder by a small portion of the population, usually by people with poorly-considered religious thoughts.
QUOTE (El_Machinae+Feb 18 2006, 10:11 PM)
My comment was regarding that we're doing something wrong if such desperation and poverty exists. Abortion is viewed as murder by a small portion of the population, usually by people with poorly-considered religious thoughts.
I agree.
The government should take view of this and do something to ease the technicalities in the abortion process. There might even have been a few deaths of women undergoing illegal abortion.
About the issue of God and abortion, that is a rather sensitive issue.
I agree.
The government should take view of this and do something to ease the technicalities in the abortion process. There might even have been a few deaths of women undergoing illegal abortion.
About the issue of God and abortion, that is a rather sensitive issue.
If they simply legalize abortion then the problem should go away. However, paying for the abortions might become a bigger issue seeing as they'd have to have certified surgeong or something.Abortion to me seems perfectly alright so long as it's done before the second trimester or so.
WHAT IF IN THIS WORLD, IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON WHAT HE THINKS IS WRONG AND WHAT HE THINKS IS RIGHT?
WHAT IF THE RIGHT AND WRONG DOESN'T EXIST? WHAT IF IT GOES INFINITELY?
WHAT IF.....
WHAT IF THE RIGHT AND WRONG DOESN'T EXIST? WHAT IF IT GOES INFINITELY?
WHAT IF.....
Hello all,
I don't usually post outside of the Creation/Evolution area, but this is a topic that peaked my interest. Leaving aborted babies in the gutters is another reason that proves that we have not evolved (at the very least in an upward sense) from animals. Animals seldom abandon their offspring.
What needs to happen here is education, compassion, and assistance.
There are communites in Africa where Christians have gone in with an education plan that teaches respect for the human body, abstinence until marriage, and of course other moral values. These communities have reversed themselves dramatically. Aids, abortion, pre-marital sex, and rape, have decreased since this new education system was implemented. Politics has kept this plan from spreading, however. Liberals feel that condoms, birth control, and government sponsored abortion are the way to go.
Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., this writer asked Uganda envoy Richard Kabonero what he thought might be wrong with America’s abstinence education, as contrasted with Uganda’s roaring success. As a diplomat, Kabonero said, he couldn’t comment on America’s programs. But when told of the list of organizations at the Rutgers conference, he replied: “We don’t buy into any theory put out by any of those experts. In Uganda, we stress abstinence first and foremost. And it works.”
Source: http://www.cwfa.org/articles/4800/CWA/education/
You can make all the excuses you want - you can deny the results if you want. But the fact is that when education, respect, abstinence, and moral values are combined and taught to societies - all these negatives are reversed.
Is abortion right, ever? No. Because it doesn't ever change the problem. Continuing abortion actually causes babies to be left in gutters. How's that? If these societies are educated, as mentioned above, then abortion goes down, and the desired pregnancies go up. The chances of finding a baby in the gutter are reduced in the first few years, and practically eliminated after a generation of educated individuals are brought up.
The article describes a horrible scene, but I also think that the world is partly at fault here for allowing the moral fabric of this and all societies to deteriorate. It's like they don't even care anymore. Just let people do what they want and it will all work out - this is what they seem to be communicating. Well that doesn't work. People need solid moral leadership in addition to the education, compassion, and assistance described above.
You may have heard the old Chinese Proverb "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."
It's the same principle.
I don't usually post outside of the Creation/Evolution area, but this is a topic that peaked my interest. Leaving aborted babies in the gutters is another reason that proves that we have not evolved (at the very least in an upward sense) from animals. Animals seldom abandon their offspring.
What needs to happen here is education, compassion, and assistance.
There are communites in Africa where Christians have gone in with an education plan that teaches respect for the human body, abstinence until marriage, and of course other moral values. These communities have reversed themselves dramatically. Aids, abortion, pre-marital sex, and rape, have decreased since this new education system was implemented. Politics has kept this plan from spreading, however. Liberals feel that condoms, birth control, and government sponsored abortion are the way to go.
QUOTE
In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002. |
Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., this writer asked Uganda envoy Richard Kabonero what he thought might be wrong with America’s abstinence education, as contrasted with Uganda’s roaring success. As a diplomat, Kabonero said, he couldn’t comment on America’s programs. But when told of the list of organizations at the Rutgers conference, he replied: “We don’t buy into any theory put out by any of those experts. In Uganda, we stress abstinence first and foremost. And it works.”
Source: http://www.cwfa.org/articles/4800/CWA/education/
You can make all the excuses you want - you can deny the results if you want. But the fact is that when education, respect, abstinence, and moral values are combined and taught to societies - all these negatives are reversed.
Is abortion right, ever? No. Because it doesn't ever change the problem. Continuing abortion actually causes babies to be left in gutters. How's that? If these societies are educated, as mentioned above, then abortion goes down, and the desired pregnancies go up. The chances of finding a baby in the gutter are reduced in the first few years, and practically eliminated after a generation of educated individuals are brought up.
The article describes a horrible scene, but I also think that the world is partly at fault here for allowing the moral fabric of this and all societies to deteriorate. It's like they don't even care anymore. Just let people do what they want and it will all work out - this is what they seem to be communicating. Well that doesn't work. People need solid moral leadership in addition to the education, compassion, and assistance described above.
You may have heard the old Chinese Proverb "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."
It's the same principle.
If I sent you to a Michel Moore website to prove my points would you believe me? Of course not! So why are you a right-wing "free-lance Christian writer" that offers no references?
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
and practically eliminated after a generation of educated individuals are brought up.
Just like in all of our industrialized counties right? And don't try to tell us that people in 1st world counties have never heard of abstinence. You must think these people are idiots, or I am just lost to your logic. How can people make the best choices when you don't give them all the information? That's what "abstinence" education is all about right? Abstain from the facts. Lie to them in order to get them to behave how you want them to behave. Why should we tell them that a condom is 97% effective?
Are you seriously suggesting that these women want to get rid of their babies? Infanticide has been recorded in Neolithic sites. It is a fact of life when there is not enough food. Africa’s problems are not going to be solved by teaching abstinence. Are there humans anywhere in the world that don’t know that sex leads to pregnancies?
QUOTE
In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002.
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002. |
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
and practically eliminated after a generation of educated individuals are brought up.
Just like in all of our industrialized counties right? And don't try to tell us that people in 1st world counties have never heard of abstinence. You must think these people are idiots, or I am just lost to your logic. How can people make the best choices when you don't give them all the information? That's what "abstinence" education is all about right? Abstain from the facts. Lie to them in order to get them to behave how you want them to behave. Why should we tell them that a condom is 97% effective?
QUOTE
The article describes a horrible scene, but I also think that the world is partly at fault here for allowing the moral fabric of this and all societies to deteriorate.
Are you seriously suggesting that these women want to get rid of their babies? Infanticide has been recorded in Neolithic sites. It is a fact of life when there is not enough food. Africa’s problems are not going to be solved by teaching abstinence. Are there humans anywhere in the world that don’t know that sex leads to pregnancies?
[QUOTE]Africa’s problems are not going to be solved by teaching abstinence. Are there humans anywhere in the world that don’t know that sex leads to pregnancies?[/QUOTE
It's true that probably everyone in the world knows that sex leads to babies, but teaching abstinence isn't just teaching people not to have sex, there are ways to resist temptation that can be taught. If masturbation and anal sex reduce the amount of aborted babies clogging up the sewers than that's fine.
It's true that probably everyone in the world knows that sex leads to babies, but teaching abstinence isn't just teaching people not to have sex, there are ways to resist temptation that can be taught. If masturbation and anal sex reduce the amount of aborted babies clogging up the sewers than that's fine.
QUOTE (Thomas the Gardener+Feb 20 2006, 07:09 PM)
If I sent you to a Michel Moore website to prove my points would you believe me? Of course not! So why are you a right-wing "free-lance Christian writer" that offers no references?
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
and practically eliminated after a generation of educated individuals are brought up.
Just like in all of our industrialized counties right? And don't try to tell us that people in 1st world counties have never heard of abstinence. You must think these people are idiots, or I am just lost to your logic. How can people make the best choices when you don't give them all the information? That's what "abstinence" education is all about right? Abstain from the facts. Lie to them in order to get them to behave how you want them to behave. Why should we tell them that a condom is 97% effective?
Are you seriously suggesting that these women want to get rid of their babies? Infanticide has been recorded in Neolithic sites. It is a fact of life when there is not enough food. Africa’s problems are not going to be solved by teaching abstinence. Are there humans anywhere in the world that don’t know that sex leads to pregnancies?
Thomas,
You misconstrued everything I said. Please go back and reread. Oh, and be sure to check the reference I gave - it covered both quotes.
If you weren't so intent on getting rid of all the right-wingers - you might actually learn something.
There are communites in Africa where Christians have gone in with an education plan that teaches respect for the human body, abstinence until marriage, and of course other moral values. These communities have reversed themselves dramatically. Aids, abortion, pre-marital sex, and rape, have decreased since this new education system was implemented. Politics has kept this plan from spreading, however. Liberals feel that condoms, birth control, and government sponsored abortion are the way to go.
How did I misconstrue this? You want to indoctrinate these people into your religion, and use the horror of AIDS as a pretext. You over hype a questionable success, provide questionable references, and then go on to vilify liberals. You imply that liberals want abortion; this shows a complete lack of understanding of the pro-choice view, and much more importantly you show a complete misunderstanding of the plight of Africans in general.
More excuses to justify using AIDS to proselytize, and you push "facts" that are inconsistent with reality.
More excuses to justify using AIDS to proselytize, and you push "facts" that are inconsistent with reality.
In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002.
According to the WHO and The World Fact Book the current Uganda infection rate (meaning the total percentage of the population that has AIDS) is 4.1. So this still fails to answer the question of where did they go.
According to the WHO and The World Fact Book the current Uganda infection rate (meaning the total percentage of the population that has AIDS) is 4.1. So this still fails to answer the question of where did they go.
moral fabric of this and all societies to deteriorate.
It always has to be about the "moral fabric" never about the real measurable realities on the ground. Please if this is not what you where saying, enlighten me on what you really meant. Tell me that your "abstinence" education will not skip over such a necessary tool to prevent AIDS and pregnancies as condoms. Tell me that you "abstinence" education will give these women the birth control they need in order to prevent all these unwanted pregnancies, what about married women? Would you rather see dead babies in the gutter than a single woman on birth control?!?
QUOTE
In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002.
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002. |
This statement defies logic. Where did all those AIDS infected people go? Besides are you trying to say that Uganda is the only nation in Africa to teach Abstinence? This is an article in the Lancet, unfortunately you'd have to subscribe to get the whole article
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000075.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/30/uganda10380.htm
and practically eliminated after a generation of educated individuals are brought up.
Just like in all of our industrialized counties right? And don't try to tell us that people in 1st world counties have never heard of abstinence. You must think these people are idiots, or I am just lost to your logic. How can people make the best choices when you don't give them all the information? That's what "abstinence" education is all about right? Abstain from the facts. Lie to them in order to get them to behave how you want them to behave. Why should we tell them that a condom is 97% effective?
QUOTE
The article describes a horrible scene, but I also think that the world is partly at fault here for allowing the moral fabric of this and all societies to deteriorate.
Are you seriously suggesting that these women want to get rid of their babies? Infanticide has been recorded in Neolithic sites. It is a fact of life when there is not enough food. Africa’s problems are not going to be solved by teaching abstinence. Are there humans anywhere in the world that don’t know that sex leads to pregnancies?
Thomas,
You misconstrued everything I said. Please go back and reread. Oh, and be sure to check the reference I gave - it covered both quotes.
If you weren't so intent on getting rid of all the right-wingers - you might actually learn something.
In Uganda, as in other sub-Saharan locations, the MASSIVE infection rate and death toll from AIDS is probably the SINGLE largest reason for the changing statistics.
But statistics can be tortured to say pretty much what you want them to say.
Messenger's quote about INFECTION rate dropping, probably has nothing to do with the percent of people that have HIV, but with NEW cases. (Which would answer TtG's "where did they go?"). Who knows? I can't find any figures that match the one's quoted, but then I rarely put much stock in numbers that don't have a source attached.
FACT, once you reach a high level of EXISTING cases, then you would EXPECT the rate of new cases to drop. The other impact of a high level of AIDs cases and TIME is the DEATH toll starts to rise dramatically, and of all killers, AIDs is a particularly CRUEL disease. Thus as the disease progresses from a large number of HIV infected but few AIDs cases to a large number of both HIV and AIDS, and finally to a growing death toll from AIDS, there becomes a much stonger INATE desire to avoid becoming infected.
But it is ALSO fact, that once you have a high level of EXISTING cases you have to deal with both abstinence and prevention. While abstinence is ideal, without a STONG backup position, ie, free/available condoms, you will never slow AIDS down. Uganda, not being stupid, did both.
Thus:
Sex education programmes in schools and on the radio focused on the need to negotiate safe sex and encouraged teenagers to delay the age at which they first have sex. Since 1990, a USAID-funded scheme to increase condom use through social marketing of condoms has boosted condom use from 7% nationwide to over 50% in rural areas and over 85% in urban areas. The social marketing scheme involved sales of condoms at subsidized prices or free distribution by both the government and the private sector. The scheme was also backed up by health education and other public information. Meanwhile more teenage girls reported condom use than any other age group -- a trend reflected in falling infection rates among 13-19 year old girls in Masaka, in rural Uganda. And among 15-year-old boys and girls, the proportion who had never had sex rose from about 20% to 50% between 1989 and 1995.
http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm
Arthur
But statistics can be tortured to say pretty much what you want them to say.
Messenger's quote about INFECTION rate dropping, probably has nothing to do with the percent of people that have HIV, but with NEW cases. (Which would answer TtG's "where did they go?"). Who knows? I can't find any figures that match the one's quoted, but then I rarely put much stock in numbers that don't have a source attached.
FACT, once you reach a high level of EXISTING cases, then you would EXPECT the rate of new cases to drop. The other impact of a high level of AIDs cases and TIME is the DEATH toll starts to rise dramatically, and of all killers, AIDs is a particularly CRUEL disease. Thus as the disease progresses from a large number of HIV infected but few AIDs cases to a large number of both HIV and AIDS, and finally to a growing death toll from AIDS, there becomes a much stonger INATE desire to avoid becoming infected.
But it is ALSO fact, that once you have a high level of EXISTING cases you have to deal with both abstinence and prevention. While abstinence is ideal, without a STONG backup position, ie, free/available condoms, you will never slow AIDS down. Uganda, not being stupid, did both.
Thus:
Sex education programmes in schools and on the radio focused on the need to negotiate safe sex and encouraged teenagers to delay the age at which they first have sex. Since 1990, a USAID-funded scheme to increase condom use through social marketing of condoms has boosted condom use from 7% nationwide to over 50% in rural areas and over 85% in urban areas. The social marketing scheme involved sales of condoms at subsidized prices or free distribution by both the government and the private sector. The scheme was also backed up by health education and other public information. Meanwhile more teenage girls reported condom use than any other age group -- a trend reflected in falling infection rates among 13-19 year old girls in Masaka, in rural Uganda. And among 15-year-old boys and girls, the proportion who had never had sex rose from about 20% to 50% between 1989 and 1995.
http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm
Arthur
QUOTE
You misconstrued everything I said. Please go back and reread. Oh, and be sure to check the reference I gave - it covered both quotes.
If you weren't so intent on getting rid of all the right-wingers - you might actually learn something.
If you weren't so intent on getting rid of all the right-wingers - you might actually learn something.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You misconstrued everything I said. Please go back and reread. Oh, and be sure to check the reference I gave - it covered both quotes. If you weren't so intent on getting rid of all the right-wingers - you might actually learn something. |
There are communites in Africa where Christians have gone in with an education plan that teaches respect for the human body, abstinence until marriage, and of course other moral values. These communities have reversed themselves dramatically. Aids, abortion, pre-marital sex, and rape, have decreased since this new education system was implemented. Politics has kept this plan from spreading, however. Liberals feel that condoms, birth control, and government sponsored abortion are the way to go.
How did I misconstrue this? You want to indoctrinate these people into your religion, and use the horror of AIDS as a pretext. You over hype a questionable success, provide questionable references, and then go on to vilify liberals. You imply that liberals want abortion; this shows a complete lack of understanding of the pro-choice view, and much more importantly you show a complete misunderstanding of the plight of Africans in general.
QUOTE
You can make all the excuses you want - you can deny the results if you want. But the fact is that when education, respect, abstinence, and moral values are combined and taught to societies - all these negatives are reversed.
More excuses to justify using AIDS to proselytize, and you push "facts" that are inconsistent with reality.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You can make all the excuses you want - you can deny the results if you want. But the fact is that when education, respect, abstinence, and moral values are combined and taught to societies - all these negatives are reversed. |
More excuses to justify using AIDS to proselytize, and you push "facts" that are inconsistent with reality.
In Africa, half a world away, a crash program in abstinence education has lowered the rate of AIDS infection in Uganda from 30 percent in 1992 to just 4 percent in 2002.
QUOTE
Messenger's quote about INFECTION rate dropping, probably has nothing to do with the percent of people that have HIV, but with NEW cases. (Which would answer TtG's "where did they go?").
According to the WHO and The World Fact Book the current Uganda infection rate (meaning the total percentage of the population that has AIDS) is 4.1. So this still fails to answer the question of where did they go.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Messenger's quote about INFECTION rate dropping, probably has nothing to do with the percent of people that have HIV, but with NEW cases. (Which would answer TtG's "where did they go?"). |
According to the WHO and The World Fact Book the current Uganda infection rate (meaning the total percentage of the population that has AIDS) is 4.1. So this still fails to answer the question of where did they go.
moral fabric of this and all societies to deteriorate.
It always has to be about the "moral fabric" never about the real measurable realities on the ground. Please if this is not what you where saying, enlighten me on what you really meant. Tell me that your "abstinence" education will not skip over such a necessary tool to prevent AIDS and pregnancies as condoms. Tell me that you "abstinence" education will give these women the birth control they need in order to prevent all these unwanted pregnancies, what about married women? Would you rather see dead babies in the gutter than a single woman on birth control?!?
I can't believe that in 2006 the pro life group can't even understand the pro choice point of view. Pro choice means that "I think everyone should be able to choose their own course of action", and it DOES NOT MEAN "Abortions for all......get pregnant so you to can join in the joy of having an abortion". As pro choice people, many feel that abortions are wrong, and that they would never get an abortion, however they are enlightened enough to say that although its not right for me under any circumstances (that I can conceive of) for others it might be the best, or only choice for their situation or circumstances. Messenger, if you have not experienced extreme poverty, then you, like me are very lucky! However imagine being in such poverty that you can't feed yourself, let alone a baby. Your in the states, and you can't afford any medical insurance to get the proper doctor check ups, or anything like that. You don't want to have the baby because you will not be able to feed or cloth it, or basically take care of it at all, and it might die of malnutrition, or something else. You also don't want to go the adoption route because you can't afford to feed yourself, let alone you and a growing baby. Is abortion still just as wrong then? Get out of your little box and realize that your life experiences do not constitute all of the life experiences in the world. Realize that others might be in situations that you ever never even thought of, and that they are probably in a much better position to make the decision than you.
Abortions should be made legal, and then an educational system that is REALISTIC should be instituted where abstance, as well as safe sex, and also teaching what other sexual acts that are not intercourse can be practiced to achieve pleasurable results. If you think you can stop kids from having sex (I mean all kids, not just some) then you are not living in reality. However, if you think you can teach kids to wait longer before they start having sex, and get more kids to make smart choices, then you are on the right track. What you need to do is to give the kids all of the information, and do it honestly, and then hope they make the smarter decisions on their own. I remember sex education from school, my parents, from religious people, and from talking to my peers. Children aren't stupid and can often tell whenthings are not honest, and when they arent, kids don't listen. If you can't tell the children the honest truth about all of the choices, why would they make the choice you are pushing? Kids often rebel, so without the proper information if you push abstance you are just as likely to make them choose to have sex than get them to choose abstance.
It isn't an uncommon thing for the parents of the pregnant girl to force her to get an abortion. I know a girl who that happened to. And remember, if its a teenage girl under the age of 18 you wouldn't even be able to prosecute her as an adult, thus eliminating the death penalty or life inprisionment in those cases, cause I am not sure of any country that sentences children to the death penalty (it might happen for children who have been tried as adults, but I suspect even thats very very rare, at least in western countries).
All of these anti abortion arguements have clear distinct counter examples that make them so riduculously stupid. The best way to go is legalization, and then proper education, which teachers the real risks, provides alternative choices that lessen or eliminate the risks. Then we have to hope that the next generation makes smarter sexual choices than this generation. Instead of fighting a losing battle, try to make small strides. I personally would like to see the abortion rate drop to zero, but I would rather have it drop due to smart choices, then because there are now more unwanted children in the world.
Messenger, I have another arguement for premarital sex. As Thomas the Gardener pointed out, when 2 virgins have sex it is very bad sex, often with neither knowing what they are doing. Another thing is that when a women loses her virginity it is very painful, and often times she bleeds. Now who wants to make their brand new wife bleed, and cry on their wedding night (crying from pain, not from happiness). I personally wouldn't want to do that. Everyone has these fantasies of the sex on their wedding night being really romantic and very pleasurable. Now, how romantic and pleasurable is a bloody vagina? For either party? I think that wedding night sex could be a major let down for two virgins, and that would be such a shame considering how great good sex can be both emotionally and physically.
Abortions should be made legal, and then an educational system that is REALISTIC should be instituted where abstance, as well as safe sex, and also teaching what other sexual acts that are not intercourse can be practiced to achieve pleasurable results. If you think you can stop kids from having sex (I mean all kids, not just some) then you are not living in reality. However, if you think you can teach kids to wait longer before they start having sex, and get more kids to make smart choices, then you are on the right track. What you need to do is to give the kids all of the information, and do it honestly, and then hope they make the smarter decisions on their own. I remember sex education from school, my parents, from religious people, and from talking to my peers. Children aren't stupid and can often tell whenthings are not honest, and when they arent, kids don't listen. If you can't tell the children the honest truth about all of the choices, why would they make the choice you are pushing? Kids often rebel, so without the proper information if you push abstance you are just as likely to make them choose to have sex than get them to choose abstance.
QUOTE
there is not enough punishment for the mothers who commit murder by abortion. I recommend that the court should treat abortion as a criminal offense and put the door open for persecution and even life imprisonment or execution. Then it wont be a common thing.
It isn't an uncommon thing for the parents of the pregnant girl to force her to get an abortion. I know a girl who that happened to. And remember, if its a teenage girl under the age of 18 you wouldn't even be able to prosecute her as an adult, thus eliminating the death penalty or life inprisionment in those cases, cause I am not sure of any country that sentences children to the death penalty (it might happen for children who have been tried as adults, but I suspect even thats very very rare, at least in western countries).
All of these anti abortion arguements have clear distinct counter examples that make them so riduculously stupid. The best way to go is legalization, and then proper education, which teachers the real risks, provides alternative choices that lessen or eliminate the risks. Then we have to hope that the next generation makes smarter sexual choices than this generation. Instead of fighting a losing battle, try to make small strides. I personally would like to see the abortion rate drop to zero, but I would rather have it drop due to smart choices, then because there are now more unwanted children in the world.
Messenger, I have another arguement for premarital sex. As Thomas the Gardener pointed out, when 2 virgins have sex it is very bad sex, often with neither knowing what they are doing. Another thing is that when a women loses her virginity it is very painful, and often times she bleeds. Now who wants to make their brand new wife bleed, and cry on their wedding night (crying from pain, not from happiness). I personally wouldn't want to do that. Everyone has these fantasies of the sex on their wedding night being really romantic and very pleasurable. Now, how romantic and pleasurable is a bloody vagina? For either party? I think that wedding night sex could be a major let down for two virgins, and that would be such a shame considering how great good sex can be both emotionally and physically.
QUOTE (TtG+)
According to the WHO and The World Fact Book the current Uganda infection rate (meaning the total percentage of the population that has AIDS) is 4.1. So this still fails to answer the question of where did they go.
Thomas,
See this site:
http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm
For some of the best info on Uganda and AIDS.
The problem is people quoting figures often leave off the QUALIFIER. The most COMMON qualifier in Ugandan stats is that they were testing just CLINIC patients.
The second is the confusion between PREVALENCE and INCIDENCE
HIV 'incidence' is the number of new cases of HIV in the population during a certain time period. People who were already infected before that time period are not included in that figure, even if they are still alive.
HIV 'prevalence' is given as a percentage of a population.
I've seen a LOT of reports which use one Incidence when they mean Prevalence (and Visa Versa)
The graph shows median HIV prevalence by year among antenatal clinic attendees in major urban areas. During the early 1990s, HIV prevalence peaked at around 15% among all adults, and exceeded 30% among pregnant women in the cities. At the end of 2003, adult prevalence was estimated at 4.1%, and an estimated 530,000 people were living with HIV/AIDS, according to UNAIDS/WHO.6
Then there is the accuracy question:
It is hard to be sure about the exact prevalence of HIV amongst Uganda's population. What UNAIDS/WHO prevalence figures do exist are taken mainly from women who visit antenatal clinics.
In a country which has very poor healthcare infrastructure and many people unable to access what does exist, it is very difficult to assess HIV levels. Much of northern Uganda is involved in civil war. ... Many people in this part of the country have been killed or injured by the fighting.
At least one recent study has challenged Uganda 's official statistics, saying that the HIV prevalence levels in Uganda may be much higher than reported.
Anyway, the site I linked to has what I consider to be some of the most well balanced info, i.e. not pushing an agenda.
Arthur
Thomas,
See this site:
http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm
For some of the best info on Uganda and AIDS.
The problem is people quoting figures often leave off the QUALIFIER. The most COMMON qualifier in Ugandan stats is that they were testing just CLINIC patients.
The second is the confusion between PREVALENCE and INCIDENCE
HIV 'incidence' is the number of new cases of HIV in the population during a certain time period. People who were already infected before that time period are not included in that figure, even if they are still alive.
HIV 'prevalence' is given as a percentage of a population.
I've seen a LOT of reports which use one Incidence when they mean Prevalence (and Visa Versa)
The graph shows median HIV prevalence by year among antenatal clinic attendees in major urban areas. During the early 1990s, HIV prevalence peaked at around 15% among all adults, and exceeded 30% among pregnant women in the cities. At the end of 2003, adult prevalence was estimated at 4.1%, and an estimated 530,000 people were living with HIV/AIDS, according to UNAIDS/WHO.6
Then there is the accuracy question:
It is hard to be sure about the exact prevalence of HIV amongst Uganda's population. What UNAIDS/WHO prevalence figures do exist are taken mainly from women who visit antenatal clinics.
In a country which has very poor healthcare infrastructure and many people unable to access what does exist, it is very difficult to assess HIV levels. Much of northern Uganda is involved in civil war. ... Many people in this part of the country have been killed or injured by the fighting.
At least one recent study has challenged Uganda 's official statistics, saying that the HIV prevalence levels in Uganda may be much higher than reported.
Anyway, the site I linked to has what I consider to be some of the most well balanced info, i.e. not pushing an agenda.
Arthur
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