the physical world does not Merrily display arbitrary regularities , it is ordered in a very special manner,
The universe is poised interestingly between the twin extremes of simple regimented orderliness(like that of a crystal) and random complexity(as in chaotic gas) The world is undeniably complex , but its complexity is of an "organized" variety . The states of the universe have depth , this depth was not built into the universe as its origin .It has emerged from from primeval chaos in a sequence of self-organizing processors that have progressively enriched and complexified the evolving universe , it is easy to imagine a world that ,though ordered, nevertheless does not posses the right sort of forces or conditions for the emergence of significant depth!
There are billions of places where these beneficial effects haven't occur ed in the same way, the fact that the have in our particular zone is simply chance.
If you have a bag full of 100000000000000000000000000000000^1000 beads, you chuck loads of colours in with them and shake it up 999999999999999999999999999999999^1000 may end up lots of different "wrong" colours but your pretty likely in such a large bag of beads to end up with at least one that has the right colour.
This is by no means a good explanation for the existence of a God I'm sorry.
If you have a bag full of 100000000000000000000000000000000^1000 beads, you chuck loads of colours in with them and shake it up 999999999999999999999999999999999^1000 may end up lots of different "wrong" colours but your pretty likely in such a large bag of beads to end up with at least one that has the right colour.
This is by no means a good explanation for the existence of a God I'm sorry.
QUOTE (SirShanson+Oct 20 2007, 12:38 AM)
There are billions of places where these beneficial effects haven't occur ed in the same way, the fact that the have in our particular zone is simply chance.
If you have a bag full of 100000000000000000000000000000000^1000 beads, you chuck loads of colours in with them and shake it up 999999999999999999999999999999999^1000 may end up lots of different "wrong" colours but your pretty likely in such a large bag of beads to end up with at least one that has the right colour.
This is by no means a good explanation for the existence of a God I'm sorry.
That's a really bad explanation. But, I suppose, as good as any...
If you have a bag full of 100000000000000000000000000000000^1000 beads, you chuck loads of colours in with them and shake it up 999999999999999999999999999999999^1000 may end up lots of different "wrong" colours but your pretty likely in such a large bag of beads to end up with at least one that has the right colour.
This is by no means a good explanation for the existence of a God I'm sorry.
That's a really bad explanation. But, I suppose, as good as any...
QUOTE (einstienear+Oct 19 2007, 07:24 PM)
the physical world does not Merrily display arbitrary regularities , it is ordered in a very special manner,
The universe is poised interestingly between the twin extremes of simple regimented orderliness(like that of a crystal) and random complexity(as in chaotic gas) The world is undeniably complex , but its complexity is of an "organized" variety . The states of the universe have depth , this depth was not built into the universe as its origin .It has emerged from from primeval chaos in a sequence of self-organizing processors that have progressively enriched and complexified the evolving universe , it is easy to imagine a world that ,though ordered, nevertheless does not posses the right sort of forces or conditions for the emergence of significant depth!
ONe word undoes evolution as well as the nebula theory for planet and solar formation:
Entropy.
The universe is not a self organizing system. The laws of thermodynamics actually say it is a self disorganizing system. Entropy of the universe always increases, no matter what. For this reason, we can say at any given moment that the universe was less entropic, and consequently more organized, in the past than it is at this very instant.
The universe is poised interestingly between the twin extremes of simple regimented orderliness(like that of a crystal) and random complexity(as in chaotic gas) The world is undeniably complex , but its complexity is of an "organized" variety . The states of the universe have depth , this depth was not built into the universe as its origin .It has emerged from from primeval chaos in a sequence of self-organizing processors that have progressively enriched and complexified the evolving universe , it is easy to imagine a world that ,though ordered, nevertheless does not posses the right sort of forces or conditions for the emergence of significant depth!
ONe word undoes evolution as well as the nebula theory for planet and solar formation:
Entropy.
The universe is not a self organizing system. The laws of thermodynamics actually say it is a self disorganizing system. Entropy of the universe always increases, no matter what. For this reason, we can say at any given moment that the universe was less entropic, and consequently more organized, in the past than it is at this very instant.
I was working on both a premise of "god existing" and " god not existing".
I came to the conclusion that there is no reason that God could not be the consequence of a build-up of similar parameters resulting in intelligent thought.
before you call me religious, I sit in neither camp. But here we sit ,Thinking and writing intelligent thoughts that require only the nurturing environment of the earth...
It's a big playground out there!
I'm inclined to think God COULD exist in the same way a computer builds up history one byte at a time.......That doesn't mean i want to give this more shape....just that God as an entity would be very possible..
Iseason.
I came to the conclusion that there is no reason that God could not be the consequence of a build-up of similar parameters resulting in intelligent thought.
before you call me religious, I sit in neither camp. But here we sit ,Thinking and writing intelligent thoughts that require only the nurturing environment of the earth...
It's a big playground out there!
I'm inclined to think God COULD exist in the same way a computer builds up history one byte at a time.......That doesn't mean i want to give this more shape....just that God as an entity would be very possible..
Iseason.
If you deny God then you're denying your own existence!
God is not an outside entity. God is You. You are responsible for the beginning, everything inbetween and its end.
To see God in you, you have to give up everything, especially your desires for acquiring anything material. Silence reveals the God inside YOU and it can be achieved by ignoring all your senses. First step to that is stop seeing (close your eyes) and stop thinking. When thoughts stop you will find the energy flowing from inwards. Try also to stop your inner self from talking anything. By practising this every day you can have closer look at the God which is buried in you.
God is not an outside entity. God is You. You are responsible for the beginning, everything inbetween and its end.
To see God in you, you have to give up everything, especially your desires for acquiring anything material. Silence reveals the God inside YOU and it can be achieved by ignoring all your senses. First step to that is stop seeing (close your eyes) and stop thinking. When thoughts stop you will find the energy flowing from inwards. Try also to stop your inner self from talking anything. By practising this every day you can have closer look at the God which is buried in you.
QUOTE
To see God in you, you have to give up everything, especially your desires for acquiring anything material. Silence reveals the God inside YOU and it can be achieved by ignoring all your senses. First step to that is stop seeing (close your eyes) and stop thinking. When thoughts stop you will find the energy flowing from inwards. Try also to stop your inner self from talking anything. By practising this every day you can have closer look at the God which is buried in you.
Thats exactly what the monks told me when I went and studied Buddhism for a month only without the God stuff, I deny God and I'm pretty sure I exist too so I am as such forced to disagree with your first statement. We are not responsible for the beginning, we weren't around then not even bacteria were, and the end well all thats left is photons floating in an empty space (one model suggests at least) I'm not a photon right now so... afraid I must disagree with you there also.
People never bielive in God. They just play role, that they believe. You think, say 1000-10000 years ago people believe in God? Like you now believe, that under quantum mechanics is God or 9 dimensions strings or many universe? Thousands years ago was needed to explain all and people decide, that it need explain with God. Now people can't explain quantum mechanics and think, that it need explain with many universe interpretation or 
wonderness of mysteries world and explain all, what quantum mechanic made hary poter.
wonderness of mysteries world and explain all, what quantum mechanic made hary poter.
QUOTE (DavidD+Oct 22 2007, 04:35 PM)
People never bielive in God. They just play role, that they believe. You think, say 1000-10000 years ago people believe in God?
I disagree - although many people who say they believe have serious doubts (I do!), some people really do believe in God, and have dedicated their lives to him. 1000 years ago, many people believed in at least one deity.
- Gehn
I disagree - although many people who say they believe have serious doubts (I do!), some people really do believe in God, and have dedicated their lives to him. 1000 years ago, many people believed in at least one deity.
- Gehn
QUOTE (Gehn+Oct 22 2007, 05:47 PM)
some people really do believe in God, and have dedicated their lives to him. 1000 years ago, many people believed in at least one deity.
How you know to what they brain believe and was believed before 10000 years? If people looks like they believe it don't means, that they believe, how we can know how neurons impulses manipulate with people consciousness? It's like dog, he don't understand many things, but he don't believe, that this things are good, he just falow the pain and pleasure signals...
How you know to what they brain believe and was believed before 10000 years? If people looks like they believe it don't means, that they believe, how we can know how neurons impulses manipulate with people consciousness? It's like dog, he don't understand many things, but he don't believe, that this things are good, he just falow the pain and pleasure signals...
For thousands of years our brain only observed what is external to our body, what is going on around us but it failed the mail goal of every human life which is to find what is within oneself.
By-the-way, you were there in the beginning but not as a bacteria. Only as a pure consciousness/soul/spirit which was and is free from senses, thoughts and any kind of material existence. The spirits having a great thirst/hunger/urge for taking other forms accumulated layers resulting in material existence. This first material forms then as a step of adaptation turned their desires forming senses and so forth. If you take bible and apply the first pure form to the spirit of Adam, which was later hungry for taking the material form tasted the first fruit which is a bodly existence and took its path to other material existences. Now, I know you would ask me the reason why apple and not any other fruit?! Apple was much familiar and was taken as the best example. No other silly reason!
If you ask me what you are? I would say simply that you are a tiny point of life/light that encapsulates unimaginable, extraordinary energy/power.
QUOTE
Thats exactly what the monks told me when I went and studied Buddhism for a month only without the God stuff, I deny God and I'm pretty sure I exist too so I am as such forced to disagree with your first statement. We are not responsible for the beginning, we weren't around then not even bacteria were, and the end well all thats left is photons floating in an empty space (one model suggests at least) I'm not a photon right now so... afraid I must disagree with you there also.
By-the-way, you were there in the beginning but not as a bacteria. Only as a pure consciousness/soul/spirit which was and is free from senses, thoughts and any kind of material existence. The spirits having a great thirst/hunger/urge for taking other forms accumulated layers resulting in material existence. This first material forms then as a step of adaptation turned their desires forming senses and so forth. If you take bible and apply the first pure form to the spirit of Adam, which was later hungry for taking the material form tasted the first fruit which is a bodly existence and took its path to other material existences. Now, I know you would ask me the reason why apple and not any other fruit?! Apple was much familiar and was taken as the best example. No other silly reason!
If you ask me what you are? I would say simply that you are a tiny point of life/light that encapsulates unimaginable, extraordinary energy/power.
HMMMMMM>>..
Y'know....As much as I like a good theological argument, You guys are about as far away from Making a start as the science guys.
It still comes back to a material which begins a process..Even though you credit this to many or a single deity,,, it needs the means to DO the things claimed.
there is nothing more annoying that statements from the bible proven by other statements in the bible or other meanderings.I BELIEVE IN GOD>
The difference for me is that I can see HOW God is possible in a scientific way. Your layers are no more explained than Jesus walking on water. The evolutionists have got some good sense argument's. i wish they could stop rejecting all texts from antiquity as crank pot religious mumbo jumbo. But HEY! What are they to do when most religious people pull rabbits from hats and call them miracles.
Iseason
Y'know....As much as I like a good theological argument, You guys are about as far away from Making a start as the science guys.
It still comes back to a material which begins a process..Even though you credit this to many or a single deity,,, it needs the means to DO the things claimed.
there is nothing more annoying that statements from the bible proven by other statements in the bible or other meanderings.I BELIEVE IN GOD>
The difference for me is that I can see HOW God is possible in a scientific way. Your layers are no more explained than Jesus walking on water. The evolutionists have got some good sense argument's. i wish they could stop rejecting all texts from antiquity as crank pot religious mumbo jumbo. But HEY! What are they to do when most religious people pull rabbits from hats and call them miracles.
Iseason
Actually the world in more random than you think!!!!! TOTAL RANDOMNESS! All probability.... EINSTEIN WAS DEAD WRONG! I prove this in my other post!
QUOTE (KKris+Oct 23 2007, 12:48 PM)
For thousands of years our brain only observed what is external to our body, what is going on around us but it failed the mail goal of every human life which is to find what is within oneself.
By-the-way, you were there in the beginning but not as a bacteria. Only as a pure consciousness/soul/spirit which was and is free from senses, thoughts and any kind of material existence. The spirits having a great thirst/hunger/urge for taking other forms accumulated layers resulting in material existence. This first material forms then as a step of adaptation turned their desires forming senses and so forth. If you take bible and apply the first pure form to the spirit of Adam, which was later hungry for taking the material form tasted the first fruit which is a bodly existence and took its path to other material existences. Now, I know you would ask me the reason why apple and not any other fruit?! Apple was much familiar and was taken as the best example. No other silly reason!
If you ask me what you are? I would say simply that you are a tiny point of life/light that encapsulates unimaginable, extraordinary energy/power.
You are half right, almost there. The people in the bible DESCRIBED what they heard or felt, and wrote it. God didnt write it himself. Although Quantum physicists can now describe spirituality and say it is impossible NOT to exist lol. By the very nature of reality itself. ONLY REDUCTIONIST SCIENTIFIC THINKERS DENY WHAT THEY CANT SEE OR MEASURE-Get a bigger more costly particle accelerator
lol When you study the nature of the smallest particles, you'll see the "laws" of reality are just an ILLUSION! But you are pretty damn close to the truth! I CAN NOT BELEIVE PEOPLE GIVE YOU BAD FEEDBACK AND CALL YOU AN IDEOT!!!! You are much smarter than them, i'd Love to know what YOU study from 
PM me PLEASE! I'll share my sources with you as well! Even a lawyers compilation of scientific proofs that PROVE THE AFTERLIFE!!!
By-the-way, you were there in the beginning but not as a bacteria. Only as a pure consciousness/soul/spirit which was and is free from senses, thoughts and any kind of material existence. The spirits having a great thirst/hunger/urge for taking other forms accumulated layers resulting in material existence. This first material forms then as a step of adaptation turned their desires forming senses and so forth. If you take bible and apply the first pure form to the spirit of Adam, which was later hungry for taking the material form tasted the first fruit which is a bodly existence and took its path to other material existences. Now, I know you would ask me the reason why apple and not any other fruit?! Apple was much familiar and was taken as the best example. No other silly reason!
If you ask me what you are? I would say simply that you are a tiny point of life/light that encapsulates unimaginable, extraordinary energy/power.
You are half right, almost there. The people in the bible DESCRIBED what they heard or felt, and wrote it. God didnt write it himself. Although Quantum physicists can now describe spirituality and say it is impossible NOT to exist lol. By the very nature of reality itself. ONLY REDUCTIONIST SCIENTIFIC THINKERS DENY WHAT THEY CANT SEE OR MEASURE-Get a bigger more costly particle accelerator
lol When you study the nature of the smallest particles, you'll see the "laws" of reality are just an ILLUSION! But you are pretty damn close to the truth! I CAN NOT BELEIVE PEOPLE GIVE YOU BAD FEEDBACK AND CALL YOU AN IDEOT!!!! You are much smarter than them, i'd Love to know what YOU study from PM me PLEASE! I'll share my sources with you as well! Even a lawyers compilation of scientific proofs that PROVE THE AFTERLIFE!!!
Hi All,
It seems to me that there are two kinds of people that believe in G*d...
The first kind are "powerless" individuals who want to have control over their uncontrollable lives or control over the actions of others.
The second kind of individual is narcissistic and actually worship themselves as G*ds in deed or in the making.
Both groups want to exercise some control over the external forces around us using either "influence" or "magic".
The conventional religions such as Christianity use "influence"... e.g. My Minister knows a deity or beings in high places and the right word in his ear and perhaps a little helpful inducements and flattery you might get the very things you want. This is the sort of re-working of the old adage of "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours". A variation on this "technique" is the direct approach... this is where you take your petitioning to G*d himself preferring no mediators "raking off a percentage of the action along the way". These are shrewd business folk who realize that G*d is a businessman and you simply offer G*d a deal that is too good to turn down for the simple favors you are seeking .... such as eternal life for you and eternal damnation for all your oppressors.
Unconventional religions exercise "mastery" over the Universe at a subtle level believing that certain rites or mental exercises will enable them to do things others cannot... a legion of "immortal" super powerful beings whose abilities are straight out of comic books.
Both groups have "witnessed" events which fit their cosmology and the way in which their "G*d" is working through things for them.
Both groups are prepared to sacrifice a lot in order to gain this advantage over others. They will hold to the ideas they aspire to in the face of certain death and also put others to death, if required, to gain some kind of advanced level of favor or ability.
There seems to be little to do but to tolerate these self seeking and self centered G*d seekers working in very secular and political ways. One of the most important principles seems to be an urgency to convert people to their ways of thought at all cost. The other is the ever increasing ways in which these groups want to influence the political process.
They are magnanimous and self sacrificing in their actions because they know G*d is watching them always and he is counting each and every "good deed" they do even though they deny that this is what is motivating them.
On the behalf of authorities they have always been very quick to capitalize on this ignorance for their own selfish purposes... when a man with a gun is not around to control them the "Dream Police" are in their head watching and exercising surveillance over them and working for "G*d". Alternatively leaders are generally calling on their populace to go on warring "quests" whose purpose can be traced back to some needs of these relatively inadequate G*ds exhibit... A need to be loved and a need to be praised. These G*ds also want to see just what kind of sacrifice their lackeys are prepared to endure in order to measure their "love". This would usually be deemed a mental problem ... if it was not G*d that is supposed to be exhibiting these traits. G*d is the last "individual" that should crave affection or praise. I could point out that aside from "acts of G*d" these G*ds never seem to directly intervene when the helpless are being slaughtered. While I do not blame G*d for not intervening you must also point the blame squarely at those who are indeed responsible. They are often the ones who believe in what they are doing is inspired by a G*d.
Some true believers are Businessmen, others are Scientists, still others are Technocrats... all groups seem to have their origins in an apocalyptic vision of our future in fear and loathing for the rest of humanity (maybe even for themselves). It is amazing to me to realize that "G*d fearing folk" will be praising G*d on the one hand and handing around the ammunition with the other.
Still there are people that do not care for all this and would never consider these alternatives to success. What is motivating them? They are motivated by a love for their families, their children and even their neighbors in far off lands. There are a few who do not "hope" in "influence" and "magic" because they already know too well what that is doing to the World. Some are looking for an answer to the really big questions since without the answers to the really big questions and a knowledge of how this World works... How can we hope to understand in what direction our planet is heading? Global warming is one of the problems and so is drugs. This is where science can help... It is a genie in the bottle that can be used if we have the will to solve many of the problems that hitherto we have left sitting in G*d's In-basket.
Wake up folks the question s not if or where G*d exists it is do we exist? If we don't wake up then soon we won't exist and I am very sure no G*d is coming to our aid since we do not deserve it. Science can help us decide what is a good choice and what is a bad choice and it can offer solutions to our technical problems. Science is a genie in a bottle and it can also be a very strict taskmaster... But in the end the choice is ours.
Cheers
It seems to me that there are two kinds of people that believe in G*d...
The first kind are "powerless" individuals who want to have control over their uncontrollable lives or control over the actions of others.
The second kind of individual is narcissistic and actually worship themselves as G*ds in deed or in the making.
Both groups want to exercise some control over the external forces around us using either "influence" or "magic".
The conventional religions such as Christianity use "influence"... e.g. My Minister knows a deity or beings in high places and the right word in his ear and perhaps a little helpful inducements and flattery you might get the very things you want. This is the sort of re-working of the old adage of "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours". A variation on this "technique" is the direct approach... this is where you take your petitioning to G*d himself preferring no mediators "raking off a percentage of the action along the way". These are shrewd business folk who realize that G*d is a businessman and you simply offer G*d a deal that is too good to turn down for the simple favors you are seeking .... such as eternal life for you and eternal damnation for all your oppressors.
Unconventional religions exercise "mastery" over the Universe at a subtle level believing that certain rites or mental exercises will enable them to do things others cannot... a legion of "immortal" super powerful beings whose abilities are straight out of comic books.
Both groups have "witnessed" events which fit their cosmology and the way in which their "G*d" is working through things for them.
Both groups are prepared to sacrifice a lot in order to gain this advantage over others. They will hold to the ideas they aspire to in the face of certain death and also put others to death, if required, to gain some kind of advanced level of favor or ability.
There seems to be little to do but to tolerate these self seeking and self centered G*d seekers working in very secular and political ways. One of the most important principles seems to be an urgency to convert people to their ways of thought at all cost. The other is the ever increasing ways in which these groups want to influence the political process.
They are magnanimous and self sacrificing in their actions because they know G*d is watching them always and he is counting each and every "good deed" they do even though they deny that this is what is motivating them.
On the behalf of authorities they have always been very quick to capitalize on this ignorance for their own selfish purposes... when a man with a gun is not around to control them the "Dream Police" are in their head watching and exercising surveillance over them and working for "G*d". Alternatively leaders are generally calling on their populace to go on warring "quests" whose purpose can be traced back to some needs of these relatively inadequate G*ds exhibit... A need to be loved and a need to be praised. These G*ds also want to see just what kind of sacrifice their lackeys are prepared to endure in order to measure their "love". This would usually be deemed a mental problem ... if it was not G*d that is supposed to be exhibiting these traits. G*d is the last "individual" that should crave affection or praise. I could point out that aside from "acts of G*d" these G*ds never seem to directly intervene when the helpless are being slaughtered. While I do not blame G*d for not intervening you must also point the blame squarely at those who are indeed responsible. They are often the ones who believe in what they are doing is inspired by a G*d.
Some true believers are Businessmen, others are Scientists, still others are Technocrats... all groups seem to have their origins in an apocalyptic vision of our future in fear and loathing for the rest of humanity (maybe even for themselves). It is amazing to me to realize that "G*d fearing folk" will be praising G*d on the one hand and handing around the ammunition with the other.
Still there are people that do not care for all this and would never consider these alternatives to success. What is motivating them? They are motivated by a love for their families, their children and even their neighbors in far off lands. There are a few who do not "hope" in "influence" and "magic" because they already know too well what that is doing to the World. Some are looking for an answer to the really big questions since without the answers to the really big questions and a knowledge of how this World works... How can we hope to understand in what direction our planet is heading? Global warming is one of the problems and so is drugs. This is where science can help... It is a genie in the bottle that can be used if we have the will to solve many of the problems that hitherto we have left sitting in G*d's In-basket.
Wake up folks the question s not if or where G*d exists it is do we exist? If we don't wake up then soon we won't exist and I am very sure no G*d is coming to our aid since we do not deserve it. Science can help us decide what is a good choice and what is a bad choice and it can offer solutions to our technical problems. Science is a genie in a bottle and it can also be a very strict taskmaster... But in the end the choice is ours.
Cheers
High level scientists studying Quantum Physics agree that there IS a spiritual backing to all of physical reality. If there wasn't, then this world simply would cease to even work. The smallest particles seem to communicate with each other no matter how far apart they are. Once they touch they are ever connected, this has been proven in experiment. Even when you MEASURE one particle miles away, it will actually change the phase of the other. The act of observing actually acts upon the particle, without touching it. This is all explainable perfectly and COMPLETELY, Quantum physicists are actually running out of questions to the universe. In theory, because some things are literally IMPOSSIBLE to prove by the very nature of Quantum physics alone. But as sure as gravity. Even in Nanotechnology they have found that at the smallest peices with nothing but EMPTY space in between there seems to be a "force somehow acting upon them". When you go down to the smallest particle you seem to find out things about reality that transform our physical perception of it, to a more spiritual description all with physical characteristics. They have proven this, just not EXACTLY what this "God" is perticularly. They just prove the SPIRITUAL REALM EXISTS.
You are just pretty much explaining how "bad" religion is lol. It gives the "opportunity" for few BAD people to have power. When power hungry people use religion as a guise to control, by saying, "you do not have to understand, just give me your absolute trust, and since I speak to GOD, then I will know the truths, that is FAITH, faith will HEAL you" lol ITS CALLED PLACEBO!!!!! Your own mind connected to spirituality that actually communicates with your cells with each other and your mind tells the rest of yourself to heal or work on healing a specific part. You are just fooled to think its the guy who talks to GOD who did it lol. Much of science can eventually in theory prove everything religion talks about. Sometimes you just have to OPEN your mind and think outside the box. Or just study high level Quantum Theory lol Been done FOR you. I explain most of the basics in my other post. All quoted from high level Quantum Physics Scientists. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=18831
~Mike
You are just pretty much explaining how "bad" religion is lol. It gives the "opportunity" for few BAD people to have power. When power hungry people use religion as a guise to control, by saying, "you do not have to understand, just give me your absolute trust, and since I speak to GOD, then I will know the truths, that is FAITH, faith will HEAL you" lol ITS CALLED PLACEBO!!!!! Your own mind connected to spirituality that actually communicates with your cells with each other and your mind tells the rest of yourself to heal or work on healing a specific part. You are just fooled to think its the guy who talks to GOD who did it lol. Much of science can eventually in theory prove everything religion talks about. Sometimes you just have to OPEN your mind and think outside the box. Or just study high level Quantum Theory lol
Been done FOR you. I explain most of the basics in my other post. All quoted from high level Quantum Physics Scientists. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=18831~Mike
Mirrorman already proved, using the sacred "mirror maths", that the Merkaba God (also known as Mister Merk Abba) is the undisputed creator of creation. Thanks to him, we no longer need to think about it. End of discussion. Duh.
Hi k631000, occidental et al,
I see God in this light:
-God is real
-God dosn't interact with us anymore
-God set the universe up to be perfect for us during the BB
-When we pray, it's quantum phisics (i think) answering for god
-The theory of hell is bogus: if you "sin" the consequences come instantly (IE STD's and Guilt)
-He's relaxing in a condo in miami
QUOTE (k631000+)
High level scientists studying Quantum Physics agree that there IS a spiritual backing to all of physical reality. If there wasn't, then this world simply would cease to even work. The smallest particles seem to communicate with each other no matter how far apart they are.
This is a truism but I could equally "reason" that a ball rolls down a hill is because G*d pushes it... or maintain that a leaf falls to the ground because thousands of tiny angels are there to make it happen according to G*ds will. That was the actual belief of mankind for many hundreds of years and if you did not like it you could be put to death.
I never said that I am opposed to people's belief in a G*d but it is not my idea of an almighty Creator when I need to look at some science fact and pointing at it say "there is G*d". I fully realize how some "showmen" in science dress up some of the facts so elaborately that some may be led to think that science is a "G*d"... Well it's not!! People have found solace in many "miraculous visions" of various things such as tricks of light in bushes, stains on subway walls caused by leaking sewerage and even from the shape of melted cheese on welsh rarebit looking a tad like the "holy mother of G*d" (the last holy item went for $15,000 on E-Bay).
These people are searching for G*d in their own way and I fully realize it is a difficult issue to satisfy some need inside people to know that we are all going to die and we can't do anything about it. When we are talking about this very important issue the Laws of Physics are not able to be settled by a quorum of hands in the air by a committee of living saints (... let alone a group of scientists). I want just one of them to have a reproducible experiment that proves conclusively that there is a single "being" that can be defined as "the Creator of everything" that is responsible for all of "this". In the end it is not any kind of mathematics or "revelation" or "sighting" that determines the existence or otherwise of G*d it is an experiment which conclusively demonstrates to independent experimenters his/her existence. If I want to know that you exist I don't pull out my maths book and start to work out the odds... I would reach for my cellphone and dial you up and ask if you are there and you would tell me yourself.
Actually I am quite prepared to find out one day that there is a single being that is responsible for all of this... all it takes is a drunken computer programmer from the technological future to invent a video game that involves a world with us in it. All human history could be "played out" in a few moments of computing time on a laptop quantum computer sitting on a dining room table 100 years or so in our future. If this is what you would want to worship as a G*d then be my guest but I assure you he (programmer) too is aware that the game is his own construct and this world and maybe his too would be no guarantee of a deity.
Mostly when people speak of encounters with "something not from our time and place", close questioning reveals that this "something" is usually identifiable as basically human in origin... Perhaps not from our time or place but still human. So called modern encounters with "angels" or even "ghosts" usually involve phenomena we just do not understand but very identifiable as being of "human origin". For those who believe in a "humanlike g*d"... with enhanced humanlike powers such as all seeing all knowing and the ability to do anything... this phenomenon simply bolsters their beliefs.
Time Travel, both spontaneous and technologically induced is "on balance" highly likely given the number of random happenings occurring all the time. This is not a demonstration of the existence of G*d but only of the exercise of technical ability or the victim of some random confluence of natural phenomena enabling a parallel quantum reality to temporally be seen here and now that may represent some other time... Fascinating I am sure... but not proof of G*d.
It would take a lot more to happen beyond the human realm to convince scientists at a scientific level that G*d is proven to exist in the same way quantum entanglement is proved to exist. Just because quantum entanglement is new in physics and is "spooky" to some, does not mean it is "G*d". Also... No amount of tricky mathematics really proves anything at all and whoever this celebrated religious celebrity is that "accidental" is referring to is ... Experiment and observation, and I mean repeatable observation, is required for proof and a basis for belief.
If someone said that they saw an invisible bridge over a deep chasm that I could not see I would need a lot more than the testimony of several eye witnesses to put my foot on it and cross it. I suggest that everyone consider carefully a rational basis for decision making in their lives unless you want to win a "Darwin Award" for "excellence".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards
As for things invisible....
Invisible tank ready for service by 2012
Don't believe everything you don't see either...
As to the "Merkaba"... the Chariot of the G*ds... could refer to any number of events in history and as UFO's today still create wonder and interest in things paranormal I am sure that they will all be possible to resolve (in the future) as perfectly natural phenomena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah
People quickly classify as "supernatural" any event they cannot understand. Almost everything today should be classified as "paranormal" and ultimately will be understood in a technological future, time and talent permitting. As we investigate many formerly "supernatural" events they are becoming fewer and fewer because we have 'tools" today that can analyze many phenomena and determine its place in our reality. I firmly believe that there will be a few remaining phenomena, though perfectly natural, we will not be able to understand for many centuries yet probably because of their lack of reproducibility. I assure you that given the opportunity to observe a strange event I will be there out of scientific curiosity but I will not be expecting "proof" of a G*d very soon. I am certainly not going to bow down and worship a piece of welsh rarebit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Cheers
I never said that I am opposed to people's belief in a G*d but it is not my idea of an almighty Creator when I need to look at some science fact and pointing at it say "there is G*d". I fully realize how some "showmen" in science dress up some of the facts so elaborately that some may be led to think that science is a "G*d"... Well it's not!! People have found solace in many "miraculous visions" of various things such as tricks of light in bushes, stains on subway walls caused by leaking sewerage and even from the shape of melted cheese on welsh rarebit looking a tad like the "holy mother of G*d" (the last holy item went for $15,000 on E-Bay).
These people are searching for G*d in their own way and I fully realize it is a difficult issue to satisfy some need inside people to know that we are all going to die and we can't do anything about it. When we are talking about this very important issue the Laws of Physics are not able to be settled by a quorum of hands in the air by a committee of living saints (... let alone a group of scientists). I want just one of them to have a reproducible experiment that proves conclusively that there is a single "being" that can be defined as "the Creator of everything" that is responsible for all of "this". In the end it is not any kind of mathematics or "revelation" or "sighting" that determines the existence or otherwise of G*d it is an experiment which conclusively demonstrates to independent experimenters his/her existence. If I want to know that you exist I don't pull out my maths book and start to work out the odds... I would reach for my cellphone and dial you up and ask if you are there and you would tell me yourself.
Actually I am quite prepared to find out one day that there is a single being that is responsible for all of this... all it takes is a drunken computer programmer from the technological future to invent a video game that involves a world with us in it. All human history could be "played out" in a few moments of computing time on a laptop quantum computer sitting on a dining room table 100 years or so in our future. If this is what you would want to worship as a G*d then be my guest but I assure you he (programmer) too is aware that the game is his own construct and this world and maybe his too would be no guarantee of a deity.
Mostly when people speak of encounters with "something not from our time and place", close questioning reveals that this "something" is usually identifiable as basically human in origin... Perhaps not from our time or place but still human. So called modern encounters with "angels" or even "ghosts" usually involve phenomena we just do not understand but very identifiable as being of "human origin". For those who believe in a "humanlike g*d"... with enhanced humanlike powers such as all seeing all knowing and the ability to do anything... this phenomenon simply bolsters their beliefs.
Time Travel, both spontaneous and technologically induced is "on balance" highly likely given the number of random happenings occurring all the time. This is not a demonstration of the existence of G*d but only of the exercise of technical ability or the victim of some random confluence of natural phenomena enabling a parallel quantum reality to temporally be seen here and now that may represent some other time... Fascinating I am sure... but not proof of G*d.
It would take a lot more to happen beyond the human realm to convince scientists at a scientific level that G*d is proven to exist in the same way quantum entanglement is proved to exist. Just because quantum entanglement is new in physics and is "spooky" to some, does not mean it is "G*d". Also... No amount of tricky mathematics really proves anything at all and whoever this celebrated religious celebrity is that "accidental" is referring to is ... Experiment and observation, and I mean repeatable observation, is required for proof and a basis for belief.
If someone said that they saw an invisible bridge over a deep chasm that I could not see I would need a lot more than the testimony of several eye witnesses to put my foot on it and cross it. I suggest that everyone consider carefully a rational basis for decision making in their lives unless you want to win a "Darwin Award" for "excellence".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards
As for things invisible....
Invisible tank ready for service by 2012
Don't believe everything you don't see either...
As to the "Merkaba"... the Chariot of the G*ds... could refer to any number of events in history and as UFO's today still create wonder and interest in things paranormal I am sure that they will all be possible to resolve (in the future) as perfectly natural phenomena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah
People quickly classify as "supernatural" any event they cannot understand. Almost everything today should be classified as "paranormal" and ultimately will be understood in a technological future, time and talent permitting. As we investigate many formerly "supernatural" events they are becoming fewer and fewer because we have 'tools" today that can analyze many phenomena and determine its place in our reality. I firmly believe that there will be a few remaining phenomena, though perfectly natural, we will not be able to understand for many centuries yet probably because of their lack of reproducibility. I assure you that given the opportunity to observe a strange event I will be there out of scientific curiosity but I will not be expecting "proof" of a G*d very soon. I am certainly not going to bow down and worship a piece of welsh rarebit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Cheers
Oh.....Well, Ill tell Mirrorman, but I dont think he is going to like it. Thx
I see God in this light:
-God is real
-God dosn't interact with us anymore
-God set the universe up to be perfect for us during the BB
-When we pray, it's quantum phisics (i think) answering for god
-The theory of hell is bogus: if you "sin" the consequences come instantly (IE STD's and Guilt)
-He's relaxing in a condo in miami
Good Elf, your reply to occidental et al just made you my god.
Hi technodai,
Cheers
QUOTE
Good Elf, your reply to occidental et al just made you my god.
Don't waste your time on false "g*ds". I do not come with an afterlife guarantee. Cheers
QUOTE (Good Elf+Nov 11 2007, 02:30 PM)
Hi technodai,
Don't waste your time on false "g*ds". I do not come with an afterlife guarantee.
Cheers
Good Elf and others.
it annoys me somewhat to see the "science verses religion" debates. In most forums one party takes a stand opposing the other.
I was lucky enough to learn religion in ignorance of science and to reject it (religion) when I could see potential in evolution. fortunately , for me , That didn't mean rejecting God or old wisdom's , but man's warped attempts to explain their own existence.
First truth to go was that the bible is infallible. This , to me needed comparison to today's preachers . it meant that unless there were stark differences in human thinking between then and now , that inevitably man would tell his own version of events.
This needn't mean that the scripture wasn't "embellished" according to a plan.
"I give wisdom to confound the wise"
Then when someone asks about "conflicting moralities". Events can be as affected by other events as quantum happenings.If an ending is already decided and the beginning is without doubt, there must be absolute parity in the middle !!. Any deviation from the "Law" means an upset in the result that would have been achieved.
This is not a one session conversation .
cheers
iseason
Don't waste your time on false "g*ds". I do not come with an afterlife guarantee.
Cheers
Good Elf and others.
it annoys me somewhat to see the "science verses religion" debates. In most forums one party takes a stand opposing the other.
I was lucky enough to learn religion in ignorance of science and to reject it (religion) when I could see potential in evolution. fortunately , for me , That didn't mean rejecting God or old wisdom's , but man's warped attempts to explain their own existence.
First truth to go was that the bible is infallible. This , to me needed comparison to today's preachers . it meant that unless there were stark differences in human thinking between then and now , that inevitably man would tell his own version of events.
This needn't mean that the scripture wasn't "embellished" according to a plan.
"I give wisdom to confound the wise"
Then when someone asks about "conflicting moralities". Events can be as affected by other events as quantum happenings.If an ending is already decided and the beginning is without doubt, there must be absolute parity in the middle !!. Any deviation from the "Law" means an upset in the result that would have been achieved.
This is not a one session conversation .
cheers
iseason
So "God" could just as easily represent an equilibrium. Knowing what the ingredients are , means that an entity must react to fix any deviation to have this position however, the entity must Be creating reality from both ends. As I have stated, that is where conflicting behaviors begin to make sense. " Because death exists, Life must take it's place or counter it's effect"
In fact The bible talks about not experiencing "The second Death". I take this to mean (along with some lateral thinking) That The bodies of men are recycled. But the spirit only goes round once as a "Whole". What Jesus managed to achieve was to "ACTUALLY DIE". When you consider thermodynamics, No energy really dies!. To have Jesus actually die , opens a door that can have a similar 'reactive' opposite at the beginning and the end .
Since he left with his body intact, there was no recycling and he only experienced death once.he had crossed a barrier that we all inhabit whether alive as a human being or a mineral.
I came to this while considering the reason so many people go on about his death on the cross. I felt that there was a great deal made out of pain and suffering and the injustice of it all, but little said about the thousands of others killed in exactly the same way. This seemed strange to me.
Although it is indeed a horrible way to die, there are many more , drawn-out and painful ways. added to that was the fact that it was not at all uncommon.I don't care that he died as a thief. This could not affect an entity like people say as this would create "a petty God". Added to that would be the lack of foreknowledge and helplessness that I find insultingly simple.
It's a matter of balance, goodness needs badness to have variance,Honesty needs guile, Health needs sickness, death needs life. The only variance to energy is no energy.
Adam did not surprise God by rebelling, for at the next instant Adam was reserected and the one after that Jesus died on the cross. BALANCE. Free choice is in no way affected. for if you sin, you lose "balance" and some one Else's profile fills the gap in the end. Do the right things and the fellow who sinned plugs the gaps in your behavior.
" To one I give a hundred talents. to another , just one. Do well with ten talents and you will rule ten cities"
"Some can late in the harvest and were paid the same as those who were there at the start." "but didn't we agree on the price at the beginning. Go now and get your reward"
I laugh at the expectations of christians around the world. Fancy believing that God could be so inept as to wait till the end of time to create a special reward, when all along they were within it.
"what did you come here to see? a man in shining clothes?"
So when science argues with religion , they are just as blind to the evolution of their own universe. They continue to expound energy as "neither being destroyed nor created" . This however creates an impass as soon as you begin, since motion creates or uses energy. Time must have a cause , which creates another impass (unless you stop time at some stage).
The only barrier to infinity is a "whole". The only whole must be "always one" to counter infinity. So when the bible says " I have said , you are Gods".
It Means , You are instances built up of the singular energy , now known as GOD. The reaping "at the end of time" is based on generations of variance that "can be measured" and therefore is now "something".
Breaking it down into , Race, Gender, Good,Bad,young,old,Starving , poor,filthy rich. All these things create balance which creates variance. The same way the universe acts.
Cheers
Iseason
In fact The bible talks about not experiencing "The second Death". I take this to mean (along with some lateral thinking) That The bodies of men are recycled. But the spirit only goes round once as a "Whole". What Jesus managed to achieve was to "ACTUALLY DIE". When you consider thermodynamics, No energy really dies!. To have Jesus actually die , opens a door that can have a similar 'reactive' opposite at the beginning and the end .
Since he left with his body intact, there was no recycling and he only experienced death once.he had crossed a barrier that we all inhabit whether alive as a human being or a mineral.
I came to this while considering the reason so many people go on about his death on the cross. I felt that there was a great deal made out of pain and suffering and the injustice of it all, but little said about the thousands of others killed in exactly the same way. This seemed strange to me.
Although it is indeed a horrible way to die, there are many more , drawn-out and painful ways. added to that was the fact that it was not at all uncommon.I don't care that he died as a thief. This could not affect an entity like people say as this would create "a petty God". Added to that would be the lack of foreknowledge and helplessness that I find insultingly simple.
It's a matter of balance, goodness needs badness to have variance,Honesty needs guile, Health needs sickness, death needs life. The only variance to energy is no energy.
Adam did not surprise God by rebelling, for at the next instant Adam was reserected and the one after that Jesus died on the cross. BALANCE. Free choice is in no way affected. for if you sin, you lose "balance" and some one Else's profile fills the gap in the end. Do the right things and the fellow who sinned plugs the gaps in your behavior.
" To one I give a hundred talents. to another , just one. Do well with ten talents and you will rule ten cities"
"Some can late in the harvest and were paid the same as those who were there at the start." "but didn't we agree on the price at the beginning. Go now and get your reward"
I laugh at the expectations of christians around the world. Fancy believing that God could be so inept as to wait till the end of time to create a special reward, when all along they were within it.
"what did you come here to see? a man in shining clothes?"
So when science argues with religion , they are just as blind to the evolution of their own universe. They continue to expound energy as "neither being destroyed nor created" . This however creates an impass as soon as you begin, since motion creates or uses energy. Time must have a cause , which creates another impass (unless you stop time at some stage).
The only barrier to infinity is a "whole". The only whole must be "always one" to counter infinity. So when the bible says " I have said , you are Gods".
It Means , You are instances built up of the singular energy , now known as GOD. The reaping "at the end of time" is based on generations of variance that "can be measured" and therefore is now "something".
Breaking it down into , Race, Gender, Good,Bad,young,old,Starving , poor,filthy rich. All these things create balance which creates variance. The same way the universe acts.
Cheers
Iseason
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