http://www.physorg.com/news102003380.html
Should we consider Italy paying Greece for when the Romans attacked and enslaved some of their city states? Obviously an extreme example, it just seems as though it is a never ending puzzle to make reparations for past injustices to any party. (American Indians, Jews, Mexicans that lost Texas, Palestinians, etc, etc, etc) Even when the documentation exists about a certain party losing an asset, determining fair market value in today"s economy is nothing short of a guess. It is also impossible to predict what path a person or an asset would have taken by changing history. The thinking goes like this: If I was not a current African American descended from a slave then I might be in the middle of genocide in Africa, I might not have ever been born, I might not have the amazing family I have today... How does one put a number value on cruelty in any form? To me, reparations, seem to say "here is your one time payment for kidnapping, torturing, and/or killing your ancestors" I think that desecrates history more than solves a problem. We should continue our focus on trying to live together with common goals. We should never repeat the mistakes of the past, nor should we marginalize them with something like a new car...
Also, I would argue that most of the "damage" done to a person's future earnings and potential in life by being black are done as the person is growing up. Your upbringing and environment when you are young largely determine which things you consider most important in life, your fundamental views on almost all basic moral issues, general levels of pessimism / optimism about the world and your situation, etc. This is affected most strongly by economic status, but there are some cultural factors as well. So the "damage" done isn't from being black, it's from being poor. Then you ask the question "what if you turned black," instead of "what if you turned poor."
This explains the big difference in money requested between adults turning black now, and being born as a random black kid. If I turned black now, I would have the same views, the same education, the same great job, the same salary, the same house and cars, the same supportive friends and family, etc. I would not expect to have my income impacted in a significantly negative manner by turning black at this point. I still have the same connections and knowledge I had before, and my career is completely knowledge-based.
Me saying I would want to get paid some small amount (or nothing) for living the rest of my life as a black person has nothing to do with my underestimating the economic differences between the average black person and the average white person. It has to do with the fact that I'm probably better off than 90% of white people, and a greater percentage of black people in the US already, and would not need to be significantly compensated for turning black.
This explains the big difference in money requested between adults turning black now, and being born as a random black kid. If I turned black now, I would have the same views, the same education, the same great job, the same salary, the same house and cars, the same supportive friends and family, etc. I would not expect to have my income impacted in a significantly negative manner by turning black at this point. I still have the same connections and knowledge I had before, and my career is completely knowledge-based.
Me saying I would want to get paid some small amount (or nothing) for living the rest of my life as a black person has nothing to do with my underestimating the economic differences between the average black person and the average white person. It has to do with the fact that I'm probably better off than 90% of white people, and a greater percentage of black people in the US already, and would not need to be significantly compensated for turning black.
I'm not sure how to quantify the "cost" of being black, but I believe the result would be a negative cost - aka a "credit". Racially-based financial discrimination has been illegal for a generation but racially-based affirmative action quotas still exist.
I dunno. If they'd have asked ME what I wanted to be black, the question would have just confused me. Granted, I'm not an American, so... yeah. The first thing that would have popped into my head wouldn't have been race or prosperity, but what my initial starting conditions would have been, and what I’d like to grow up to be.
So if I'd have been asked, I'd have said: "if I was going to be reborn as a black baby, I'd want to be grow up to be very intelligent, hot, a lesbian, and have a good singing voice, with some moderate musical skills. I'd also like to be a good writer." I think I would have missed the point of this survey entirely. That’s just me though. It also wouldn’t have occurred to me to ask for money for such a change (that just seems... weird).
So I suspect that in order to get any meaningful data from this survey (and not just a bunch of random stuff like what I wrote down above), they had to give multiple choice answers (and maybe true/false questions too). Whenever you do that, you are telling your surveyees what you want them to think, and not allowing them to form their own opinions, or to conclude what they will from your questions. You are informing them what their answer will be. I wonder if this was a phone survey? When I get those, I just give randomized answers if they are multiple choice, or true/false.
So if I'd have been asked, I'd have said: "if I was going to be reborn as a black baby, I'd want to be grow up to be very intelligent, hot, a lesbian, and have a good singing voice, with some moderate musical skills. I'd also like to be a good writer." I think I would have missed the point of this survey entirely. That’s just me though. It also wouldn’t have occurred to me to ask for money for such a change (that just seems... weird).
So I suspect that in order to get any meaningful data from this survey (and not just a bunch of random stuff like what I wrote down above), they had to give multiple choice answers (and maybe true/false questions too). Whenever you do that, you are telling your surveyees what you want them to think, and not allowing them to form their own opinions, or to conclude what they will from your questions. You are informing them what their answer will be. I wonder if this was a phone survey? When I get those, I just give randomized answers if they are multiple choice, or true/false.
Using TV habits for comparison is not a meaningful comparison. The survey question of changing ones TV habits has no implied message regarding basic moral beliefs. In stark contrast, the question of "how much would you need to be paid to change your skin color permanently" might be misconstrued to show implicit moral beliefs which respondents find repugnant. If they wanted a more meaningful comparison perhaps they should have asked respondents about changing their sex and/or gender.
By answering $1 million (as they did for TV) respondents probably realized they could effectively be saying "I'm worth $1 million more than a black person". So instead of the question being "how much do you think it costs to be a black person", it seems like the question is "how much do you value other people based on their race". Which boiled down a little further comes out to: "Are you a white supremacist?".
The flawed conclusion assumes that these people are using economic reasoning while ignoring their personal moral views.
Given the flawed conclusions drawn here who could blame a respondent for reading between the lines?
By answering $1 million (as they did for TV) respondents probably realized they could effectively be saying "I'm worth $1 million more than a black person". So instead of the question being "how much do you think it costs to be a black person", it seems like the question is "how much do you value other people based on their race". Which boiled down a little further comes out to: "Are you a white supremacist?".
The flawed conclusion assumes that these people are using economic reasoning while ignoring their personal moral views.
Given the flawed conclusions drawn here who could blame a respondent for reading between the lines?
Trying to capitalise on the attrocities performed on your ancestors is like selling your parents for medical experiments.
If you really want to sell forgiveness for what was done to your ancestors, put it on ebay and let market forces decide.
If you really want to sell forgiveness for what was done to your ancestors, put it on ebay and let market forces decide.
The big problem with this logic is the AVERAGE black person living outside of Africa is FAR better off financially than the AVERAGE black person living in Africa.
One could just as easily claim that the blacks were done an economic favor by being taken from Africa.
Arthur
One could just as easily claim that the blacks were done an economic favor by being taken from Africa.
Arthur
So since I live on a yearly income of slightly less than 21,000 dollars a year I am to "rich" to understand what negro's go through? sorry still not guilty... 
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 26 2007, 04:13 AM)
The big problem with this logic is the AVERAGE black person living outside of Africa is FAR better off financially than the AVERAGE black person living in Africa.
One could just as easily claim that the blacks were done an economic favor by being taken from Africa.
Arthur
And the Jews should be grateful to Hitler for getting them a homeland in Israel.
One could just as easily claim that the blacks were done an economic favor by being taken from Africa.
Arthur
And the Jews should be grateful to Hitler for getting them a homeland in Israel.
"In most cases, the participants were told to imagine they were actually black, but had always passed for white. The imagined race change required no physical transformation, just a change in public status."
and
"Results suggest white people considered a race change as relatively trivial, along the lines of a change in official state residency, as opposed to the seemingly big sacrifice of giving up television."
So the study conductors intentionally make the "race change" as trivial as possible (in essence they're asking participants how they would feel if they discovered they had some African heritage) then raise their arms in uproar when participants judge the proposed race change to be rather trivial.
And if they still pass for white, than how is it a change in public status?
Pure idiocy.
why not ask black participants how they'd feel if they were actually white, but passed for black?....an equally asinine proposal.
Once again the social science's glaring befuddled ineptitude comes shining through. The study designers wanted to express an opinion then went about tailoring a study to give their opinion a facade of legitimacy. Perhaps their opinions are legitimate, but this study goes nowhere in supporting it.
The only way studies of this type make sense is when you view it from the angle that somewhere along the lines the social sciences decided that their primary goals are to shape and manipulate public opinion, not to conduct scientific research. Secondarily to inflame and irritate, and grab headlines and money.
Don't waste your time debating the so-called finding's of this study (it wasn't designed to actually have any)....it's the "study" itself which is the true topic in need of debate.
and
"Results suggest white people considered a race change as relatively trivial, along the lines of a change in official state residency, as opposed to the seemingly big sacrifice of giving up television."
So the study conductors intentionally make the "race change" as trivial as possible (in essence they're asking participants how they would feel if they discovered they had some African heritage) then raise their arms in uproar when participants judge the proposed race change to be rather trivial.
And if they still pass for white, than how is it a change in public status?
Pure idiocy.
why not ask black participants how they'd feel if they were actually white, but passed for black?....an equally asinine proposal.
Once again the social science's glaring befuddled ineptitude comes shining through. The study designers wanted to express an opinion then went about tailoring a study to give their opinion a facade of legitimacy. Perhaps their opinions are legitimate, but this study goes nowhere in supporting it.
The only way studies of this type make sense is when you view it from the angle that somewhere along the lines the social sciences decided that their primary goals are to shape and manipulate public opinion, not to conduct scientific research. Secondarily to inflame and irritate, and grab headlines and money.
Don't waste your time debating the so-called finding's of this study (it wasn't designed to actually have any)....it's the "study" itself which is the true topic in need of debate.
QUOTE (Dropkickmurphy+Jun 26 2007, 04:29 AM)
So since I live on a yearly income of slightly less than 21,000 dollars a year I am to "rich" to understand what negro's go through? sorry still not guilty...
I wondered about this too. Occasionally I hear that there is an "average" income among Americans. I suspect that this is a mean average. But I don't want a mean average, I want a mode average.
In other words take the average income of 100 people. Say you are averaging the income of 99 people like me, with my 20K/year wage, and then adding in the yearly income of Bill Gates. You will get the average income among 100 people, but it will be an artificial vastly inflated "average" value. Instead, you should take the mode average, which (in this case) is a count of what the majority of the people actually make. Which would give an average of 20K per year.
I strongly suspect that there are far more extremely rich white people than there are extremely rich black people (if only because white people in the US have had a longer period of time to gain wealth for their family, because of the extreme social... problems). Therefore, the mean average income of white people will be higher. Since the gap between the very rich and the very poor is growing (quickly), the gap between whites and blacks would then also grow, in proportion.
This may not be the *only* effect that causes a disparity in the numbers (and I suspect it isn't. There likely is at least a small disparity between white people and all minority groups in the US), but I wonder if it part of it.
I wondered about this too. Occasionally I hear that there is an "average" income among Americans. I suspect that this is a mean average. But I don't want a mean average, I want a mode average.
In other words take the average income of 100 people. Say you are averaging the income of 99 people like me, with my 20K/year wage, and then adding in the yearly income of Bill Gates. You will get the average income among 100 people, but it will be an artificial vastly inflated "average" value. Instead, you should take the mode average, which (in this case) is a count of what the majority of the people actually make. Which would give an average of 20K per year.
I strongly suspect that there are far more extremely rich white people than there are extremely rich black people (if only because white people in the US have had a longer period of time to gain wealth for their family, because of the extreme social... problems). Therefore, the mean average income of white people will be higher. Since the gap between the very rich and the very poor is growing (quickly), the gap between whites and blacks would then also grow, in proportion.
This may not be the *only* effect that causes a disparity in the numbers (and I suspect it isn't. There likely is at least a small disparity between white people and all minority groups in the US), but I wonder if it part of it.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jun 26 2007, 02:05 AM)
And the Jews should be grateful to Hitler for getting them a homeland in Israel.
Grateful to Hitler?
No
Its the "law of unintended consequenses".
Good things sometimes come out of bad actions.
This does NOT make the original bad actions good or in any way justify them.
Thus no need to be "grateful to Hitler"
Israelites should be grateful to their relatives who SUFFERED under Hitler and persevered to eventually earn, though their long suffering, a home for their descendents.
Arthur
Grateful to Hitler?
No
Its the "law of unintended consequenses".
Good things sometimes come out of bad actions.
This does NOT make the original bad actions good or in any way justify them.
Thus no need to be "grateful to Hitler"
Israelites should be grateful to their relatives who SUFFERED under Hitler and persevered to eventually earn, though their long suffering, a home for their descendents.
Arthur
The study leaves a lot to be desired about ideas on race. Suppose instead the surveyors were asked to imagine being a very dark skinned black person, living in a world where nearly all the books that they looked at in schools had just a trickle of people of their deep color to represent them, where television programs were for the most part "white" with the occasional person of color in them, and where very, very few of those dark-skinned people were of your deep hue. Add that you accepted this as a child but that you became frustrated by this more and more as time passed and you saw the regularity of this ultimate prejudice on a daily basis.
Now as a surveyor imagine you were asked to envision a world where this was reversed. Where the white people were on the trickle end.
How comfortable you might be, seeing your skin-tone in every newspaper add....where you usually just saw the occasional white person in the background, and very rarely in the front of an add, sometimes....same for television and magazines...sometimes there was an occasional white person... ask them to touch on how lighthearted and validated and acceptable you would feel in this topsy~turvey world.
Now ask something about how much you might want as a black person, to give up this new world. Going back to the one of before, which was almost reversed.
Surveys could so easily be more accurate, and realistic. Why are they often so asinine?
Imagine the peoples of Alaska, Hawaii, and American Samoa...the people in American parts of the Virgin Isles....and Latin, & Asian Americans, how they feel about race representation in the Americas.
Fortunately after many years of being less represented, black folks are finally a little more represented in movies, marketing and television than these other minorities... still race issues are tough to call. No one should decide for the next race what they deserve. No one should determine for the Hawaiian whether they should be fighting for sovereignty, and by this same token, no one should decide what to do about slavery, without major input from those descendants of slaves themselves.
Maybe the next survey should take these sorts of things into account. Not compare reparations with something as banal (but apparently very valuable to people) as entertainment. The idea behind reparations is to resolve the tension created from past injustices done to a people.
Now as a surveyor imagine you were asked to envision a world where this was reversed. Where the white people were on the trickle end.
How comfortable you might be, seeing your skin-tone in every newspaper add....where you usually just saw the occasional white person in the background, and very rarely in the front of an add, sometimes....same for television and magazines...sometimes there was an occasional white person... ask them to touch on how lighthearted and validated and acceptable you would feel in this topsy~turvey world.
Now ask something about how much you might want as a black person, to give up this new world. Going back to the one of before, which was almost reversed.
Surveys could so easily be more accurate, and realistic. Why are they often so asinine?
Imagine the peoples of Alaska, Hawaii, and American Samoa...the people in American parts of the Virgin Isles....and Latin, & Asian Americans, how they feel about race representation in the Americas.
Fortunately after many years of being less represented, black folks are finally a little more represented in movies, marketing and television than these other minorities... still race issues are tough to call. No one should decide for the next race what they deserve. No one should determine for the Hawaiian whether they should be fighting for sovereignty, and by this same token, no one should decide what to do about slavery, without major input from those descendants of slaves themselves.
Maybe the next survey should take these sorts of things into account. Not compare reparations with something as banal (but apparently very valuable to people) as entertainment. The idea behind reparations is to resolve the tension created from past injustices done to a people.
When abstractly asked about reparations for a 150 year old crime a majority of whites are supportive. To me, that seems very significant!
I think the results of some of the key questions are being overlooked by the people commenting here.
The results seem to indicate a psychological schism among the white population. The same people who agree abstractly with compensation for a crime 150 years old disagree for compensation for a crime much less than 150 years old when the compensation goes to black Americans.
That is essentially what the study finds. The comments here are staying away from the subject at hand and instead finding straw to fight.
The study is all about the contradiction of white thinking on the subject, not about the rightness of reparations. As the study finds, everyone, white and black agree that reparations for 150 year old crimes are just!
I think the results of some of the key questions are being overlooked by the people commenting here.
The results seem to indicate a psychological schism among the white population. The same people who agree abstractly with compensation for a crime 150 years old disagree for compensation for a crime much less than 150 years old when the compensation goes to black Americans.
That is essentially what the study finds. The comments here are staying away from the subject at hand and instead finding straw to fight.
The study is all about the contradiction of white thinking on the subject, not about the rightness of reparations. As the study finds, everyone, white and black agree that reparations for 150 year old crimes are just!
It's unfortunate many White Americans don't understand or want to admit that this isn't just about slavery but is also about the after effects of slavery and the institutional racism that exists in this country.
This country's leaders have made it their business to go into other countries and demand reparations for others, but don't have the decency and moral values to take care of the people, who as much or more than any race, contributed to the economic well-being of this country and its institutions, including religious institutions and suffered the most under a western developed system of racial hatred and bigotry. Without going into the adequacy, or lack thereof, of the apology and compensation, others have received what Blacks are demanding and suffered a lot less. I look at the failure to do what's right like I look at the statute of limitations in legal cases. If a party affirmatively caused a case not to go forward, they don't get rewarded for the act of running and/or being unavailable and the statute doesn't run during this period.
Also, from what I've read about this study, the fact that Whites would be more apt to agree with reparations if they were the ones who were wronged, says a lot about the lack of fairness and impartiality that guides people in this "Christian" country, today.
This country's leaders have made it their business to go into other countries and demand reparations for others, but don't have the decency and moral values to take care of the people, who as much or more than any race, contributed to the economic well-being of this country and its institutions, including religious institutions and suffered the most under a western developed system of racial hatred and bigotry. Without going into the adequacy, or lack thereof, of the apology and compensation, others have received what Blacks are demanding and suffered a lot less. I look at the failure to do what's right like I look at the statute of limitations in legal cases. If a party affirmatively caused a case not to go forward, they don't get rewarded for the act of running and/or being unavailable and the statute doesn't run during this period.
Also, from what I've read about this study, the fact that Whites would be more apt to agree with reparations if they were the ones who were wronged, says a lot about the lack of fairness and impartiality that guides people in this "Christian" country, today.
You can't compare the ARTIFICIAL situation the study problem created to the much more complex problem of Reparations for slavery.
In the artificial problem the issues are ALL fairly specific:
A SPECIFIC PERSON was harmed.
A SPECIFIC AMOUNT of "harm" was involved.
A SPECIFIC RELATIONSHIP between the person harmed and the present plaintiff is known.
A SPECIFIC PERPETRATOR of the crime is known.
A SPECIFIC BENIFICIARY of the crime is known.
The REPARATIONS are to be made between the SPECIFIC BENEFICIARY and the SPECIFIC DEFENDENTS.
Further the repartations suggested ($5,000 per the grandfather's living descendents) are tiny compared to the stated value of the company created from the crime ($100 Million)
Comparing this to being against repartions for today's 36 million blacks living in America ignores the DRASTIC differences that exist between that rather well defined issue and the incredibly complex issue of reparations.
Just consider that based on the 1860 census:
Less than 1.5% of the free population (27 million) owned slaves.
or that
Less than 7% of the slave holders owned over 20% of the slaves
or that
More than 10% of the black population of the US were not slaves.
Arthur
In the artificial problem the issues are ALL fairly specific:
A SPECIFIC PERSON was harmed.
A SPECIFIC AMOUNT of "harm" was involved.
A SPECIFIC RELATIONSHIP between the person harmed and the present plaintiff is known.
A SPECIFIC PERPETRATOR of the crime is known.
A SPECIFIC BENIFICIARY of the crime is known.
The REPARATIONS are to be made between the SPECIFIC BENEFICIARY and the SPECIFIC DEFENDENTS.
Further the repartations suggested ($5,000 per the grandfather's living descendents) are tiny compared to the stated value of the company created from the crime ($100 Million)
Comparing this to being against repartions for today's 36 million blacks living in America ignores the DRASTIC differences that exist between that rather well defined issue and the incredibly complex issue of reparations.
Just consider that based on the 1860 census:
Less than 1.5% of the free population (27 million) owned slaves.
or that
Less than 7% of the slave holders owned over 20% of the slaves
or that
More than 10% of the black population of the US were not slaves.
Arthur
I myself, think that the original article offered by the op, is only socially localized, to be true.
The reason is, that we don't know our collective timelines, past the ten thousand year ago period.
There is very strong evidence, that there was once a large continent off the coast of Florida.
This continent, could have spooned influences in America, as well as the area known as Basque.
As author Michael Crichton said in his book, Congo, which was about an expedition into the deepest darkest parts of the Belgian Congo, to find a certain type of ape, that there were civilization down in there, that dated well past the ten thousand year ago level, also.
What is funny, is reality imitates art and there was a tribe of apes in the area, that Crichton had described and by chance, as reported in a later news break, they apes attacked exactly as Crichton had said in his book.
I don't know, maybe Crichton is clairvoyant, however this certainly received my attention.
There are probably hidden civilizations in the greater continent of Africa, that were very highly developed, however were not recorded.
The term slave, is only an indication of a socio-economic time that we have gone through, in the past two hundred years.
The reason is, that we don't know our collective timelines, past the ten thousand year ago period.
There is very strong evidence, that there was once a large continent off the coast of Florida.
This continent, could have spooned influences in America, as well as the area known as Basque.
As author Michael Crichton said in his book, Congo, which was about an expedition into the deepest darkest parts of the Belgian Congo, to find a certain type of ape, that there were civilization down in there, that dated well past the ten thousand year ago level, also.
What is funny, is reality imitates art and there was a tribe of apes in the area, that Crichton had described and by chance, as reported in a later news break, they apes attacked exactly as Crichton had said in his book.
I don't know, maybe Crichton is clairvoyant, however this certainly received my attention.
There are probably hidden civilizations in the greater continent of Africa, that were very highly developed, however were not recorded.
The term slave, is only an indication of a socio-economic time that we have gone through, in the past two hundred years.
This report is ridiculous. It's saying that because white family households average more money per year than black family households that, this is somehow caused by slavery.
That is their justification for why whites should pay reparations??!?
Well what about Mexican households? Japanese households? Chinese households? Dominican households? The list goes on and on. Almost every nationality that emigrates to this country has a lower income rate than whites. Does this mean that whites enslaved them all in some distant past? Does this mean that whites should have to pay everyone who makes less money than them reparations? Well, it's BS. And if you are absolutely struggling to make end's meat and can't get a job, there's always welfare. Try finding the welfare office in Africa, Jamaica, Haiti, etc. You can't.
And furthermore, I dislike how this article classifies all fair-skinned Americans as simply "whites". I am using the terminology herein because of the precedence set by this article, but I find it distasteful. It's grouping many cultures together into one group, who had nothing to do with slavery, and may have even immigrated subsequently.
So, now the blame falls on which nationality? English? French? Italian? Irish? German? Dutch? Swedish? I would like to know... b/c if I'm one-half Scottish, does that mean I only have to pay 1/2 of my reparations?
Instead of wasting time complaining about how the white-man owes money to African Americans, useless people like Dr. Philip Mazzocco might consider spending more time improving cross-cultural relations.
That is their justification for why whites should pay reparations??!?
Well what about Mexican households? Japanese households? Chinese households? Dominican households? The list goes on and on. Almost every nationality that emigrates to this country has a lower income rate than whites. Does this mean that whites enslaved them all in some distant past? Does this mean that whites should have to pay everyone who makes less money than them reparations? Well, it's BS. And if you are absolutely struggling to make end's meat and can't get a job, there's always welfare. Try finding the welfare office in Africa, Jamaica, Haiti, etc. You can't.
And furthermore, I dislike how this article classifies all fair-skinned Americans as simply "whites". I am using the terminology herein because of the precedence set by this article, but I find it distasteful. It's grouping many cultures together into one group, who had nothing to do with slavery, and may have even immigrated subsequently.
So, now the blame falls on which nationality? English? French? Italian? Irish? German? Dutch? Swedish? I would like to know... b/c if I'm one-half Scottish, does that mean I only have to pay 1/2 of my reparations?
Instead of wasting time complaining about how the white-man owes money to African Americans, useless people like Dr. Philip Mazzocco might consider spending more time improving cross-cultural relations.
QUOTE (Sharon Dupree+Jun 29 2007, 05:15 PM)
It's unfortunate many White Americans don't understand or want to admit that this isn't just about slavery but is also about the after effects of slavery and the institutional racism that exists in this country.
This country's leaders have made it their business to go into other countries and demand reparations for others, but don't have the decency and moral values to take care of the people, who as much or more than any race, contributed to the economic well-being of this country and its institutions, including religious institutions and suffered the most under a western developed system of racial hatred and bigotry. Without going into the adequacy, or lack thereof, of the apology and compensation, others have received what Blacks are demanding and suffered a lot less. I look at the failure to do what's right like I look at the statute of limitations in legal cases. If a party affirmatively caused a case not to go forward, they don't get rewarded for the act of running and/or being unavailable and the statute doesn't run during this period.
Also, from what I've read about this study, the fact that Whites would be more apt to agree with reparations if they were the ones who were wronged, says a lot about the lack of fairness and impartiality that guides people in this "Christian" country, today.
You cannot buy forgiveness. Why do people always bring this issue back to money? It's so superficial. Americans have been apologizing for something they have not personally done for 150 years.
Even if each dark-skinned person in America receives a million dollars, do you think it;s going to end the issue? No. Suffering through that period in time is a part of black history. It helps define the culture as people who had to deal with a great hardship, but survived through it, and are now have the same potential as any other American.
People cannot forget incidences like black slavery. The only thing reparations are going to do is serve as a glaringly tactless effort by those with money to spare to quantify the hardships of others into an insignificant monetary hand-out, and forget about the event like it never even happened.
Next, why doesn't someone write and equally tasteless article entitled "I'm a qualified white male and lost job opportunities due to affirmative action--where's my reparations?".
This country's leaders have made it their business to go into other countries and demand reparations for others, but don't have the decency and moral values to take care of the people, who as much or more than any race, contributed to the economic well-being of this country and its institutions, including religious institutions and suffered the most under a western developed system of racial hatred and bigotry. Without going into the adequacy, or lack thereof, of the apology and compensation, others have received what Blacks are demanding and suffered a lot less. I look at the failure to do what's right like I look at the statute of limitations in legal cases. If a party affirmatively caused a case not to go forward, they don't get rewarded for the act of running and/or being unavailable and the statute doesn't run during this period.
Also, from what I've read about this study, the fact that Whites would be more apt to agree with reparations if they were the ones who were wronged, says a lot about the lack of fairness and impartiality that guides people in this "Christian" country, today.
You cannot buy forgiveness. Why do people always bring this issue back to money? It's so superficial. Americans have been apologizing for something they have not personally done for 150 years.
Even if each dark-skinned person in America receives a million dollars, do you think it;s going to end the issue? No. Suffering through that period in time is a part of black history. It helps define the culture as people who had to deal with a great hardship, but survived through it, and are now have the same potential as any other American.
People cannot forget incidences like black slavery. The only thing reparations are going to do is serve as a glaringly tactless effort by those with money to spare to quantify the hardships of others into an insignificant monetary hand-out, and forget about the event like it never even happened.
Next, why doesn't someone write and equally tasteless article entitled "I'm a qualified white male and lost job opportunities due to affirmative action--where's my reparations?".
QUOTE (Latrosicarius+Jun 29 2007, 02:49 PM)
You cannot buy forgiveness. Why do people always bring this issue back to money? It's so superficial. Americans have been apologizing for something they have not personally done for 150 years.
Even if each dark-skinned person in America receives a million dollars, do you think it;s going to end the issue? No. Suffering through that period in time is a part of black history. It helps define the culture as people who had to deal with a great hardship, but survived through it, and are now have the same potential as any other American.
People cannot forget incidences like black slavery. The only thing reparations are going to do is serve as a glaringly tactless effort by those with money to spare to quantify the hardships of others into an insignificant monetary hand-out, and forget about the event like it never even happened.
Next, why doesn't someone write and equally tasteless article entitled "I'm a qualified white male and lost job opportunities due to affirmative action--where's my reparations?".
It may seem wishy~washy but I do have to agree with certain points here. When I was in Hawaii I was a minority. It was uncomfortable often times and sometimes I was afraid of being subjected to violence based on merely my skin tone. This led me to do much thinking on why many peoples of (partial) Hawaiian decent would be so angry with a POTENTIAL descendant of someone who had caused them harm in the past, but not necessarily that thing (a desendant).
I have no idea if my people were related to the Cooks...Captain James Cook, his shipmates or others around in that era. i know I was being asked to pay, in a sense for those times, and it made me feel angry at times. i wanted to make a T-shirt that said I am not Captain Cook!
This is a complicated subject like so many but I still say there should be a lot of input from those descendants of slaves in any decision making process around reparations. This takes me back to those fictional movies I grew up watching about the Congo...and how the white man depicted the African cousin. Not always a true picture of the people. They had sophisticated ways, that were left out of many movies about the people, much like the Hawaiian.
And no one need decide for them how it will be, I hope they are very much involved in any process...
Also I want to say that I do agree that "white" is a simplified term for a vast array of very different types of people, but so is black", they are both getting a bit dated...but what will we start to say, instead? I wonder what new terms will serve people? I hope they are more kind.
Even if each dark-skinned person in America receives a million dollars, do you think it;s going to end the issue? No. Suffering through that period in time is a part of black history. It helps define the culture as people who had to deal with a great hardship, but survived through it, and are now have the same potential as any other American.
People cannot forget incidences like black slavery. The only thing reparations are going to do is serve as a glaringly tactless effort by those with money to spare to quantify the hardships of others into an insignificant monetary hand-out, and forget about the event like it never even happened.
Next, why doesn't someone write and equally tasteless article entitled "I'm a qualified white male and lost job opportunities due to affirmative action--where's my reparations?".
It may seem wishy~washy but I do have to agree with certain points here. When I was in Hawaii I was a minority. It was uncomfortable often times and sometimes I was afraid of being subjected to violence based on merely my skin tone. This led me to do much thinking on why many peoples of (partial) Hawaiian decent would be so angry with a POTENTIAL descendant of someone who had caused them harm in the past, but not necessarily that thing (a desendant).
I have no idea if my people were related to the Cooks...Captain James Cook, his shipmates or others around in that era. i know I was being asked to pay, in a sense for those times, and it made me feel angry at times. i wanted to make a T-shirt that said I am not Captain Cook!
This is a complicated subject like so many but I still say there should be a lot of input from those descendants of slaves in any decision making process around reparations. This takes me back to those fictional movies I grew up watching about the Congo...and how the white man depicted the African cousin. Not always a true picture of the people. They had sophisticated ways, that were left out of many movies about the people, much like the Hawaiian.
And no one need decide for them how it will be, I hope they are very much involved in any process...
Also I want to say that I do agree that "white" is a simplified term for a vast array of very different types of people, but so is black", they are both getting a bit dated...but what will we start to say, instead? I wonder what new terms will serve people? I hope they are more kind.
Slavery was the way of life through most of history and is well documented at least through Rome. The stronger cultural would take over other cultures and the loser would become the property of the winner. I am not saying this was good, but it was the way things were done. The result was assimilation into the dominant culture. While the lessor culture would bring fresh ideas into the dominate culture.
Although slavery gives a bad subjective feeling, many slaves were often the top notch people from the defeated culture who had special skills and abilities which made them very useful. The Egyptians enslaved the Jews during the time of the pyramids. The Jews were very skilled in many crafts and were needed to get the job the done. The pyramids may not have been possible without this free labor force. Later in history, the Jews had their own slaves. It was the way things were done. Being a slave didn't always mean disgrace. Daniel of the bible was a slave who became the key advisor to the King. He lived in the palace at a seat of honor above nearly all the nonslaves. In America, females slaves often raised all the children and may have did a better job then the socialite mother. The children may have felt they had two mothers. That is something to be proud of.
The descendants of the American slaves should be proud for another reason. It was this timely labor force that made the industrial revolution possible. The southern cotton would not have been in sufficent supply to get the ball rolling in the nothern factories cities, without their assistance. Eli Whitney was a slave who was an innovator. His cotton gin was pivotal. He helped make the future possible.
On the other side of the coin, most people seem to forget that America was the place where immigrants migrated for a better life, i.e, give us your wretched masses. The vast majority of white Americans descended from people who were considered the refuse of their home countries. Their country was glad to get rid of the problem.They didn't own slaves. They were a notch above slaves in their former countries. Once here they took a lot of crap and did the crappy jobs that helped the country progress.
What the liberals don't seem to realize is that their quick fix is going to create a backlash that will isolate the blacks even more. Most white people were descendants of peasants. I don't believe more than 5-10% of white could trace their linear to someone who had slaves.. The majority of white are going to feel victimized by being force to pay for something that neither they are their ancester had anything to do with. The dynamics is going to be like a bad divorce. A fair wife may just want to settle and get it over with so she can retain a good relationship with her ex, for the kids sake. But her lawyer is going to try to embitter her until she want to stick it to her exhusband. Her lawyer knows quite well, her husband will feel betrayed and will want to retaliate, requiring another lawyer. The other lawyer will fan the husband's fire getting him worked up. The two lawyer's goal is to blood suck the husband and wife as long as possible. A peaceful settlement isn't lucrative.
The liberal politians are not concerned about racial relatiionships moving forward in a peaceful way. They can blood suck longer and harder if they keep the fires of hurt and resentment perpetuated. After a bitter divorce, the husband and wife will not be friends and the (future) will suffer. If the wife needs help down the line, she will not get it without another round of blood sucking. If the settlement had been amicable the husband will be glad to help. The Liberals are like a shady wife's attorney trying to fan the hurt so it can suck her blood for votes. The blood letting will make her feel weak and not empowered.
Although slavery gives a bad subjective feeling, many slaves were often the top notch people from the defeated culture who had special skills and abilities which made them very useful. The Egyptians enslaved the Jews during the time of the pyramids. The Jews were very skilled in many crafts and were needed to get the job the done. The pyramids may not have been possible without this free labor force. Later in history, the Jews had their own slaves. It was the way things were done. Being a slave didn't always mean disgrace. Daniel of the bible was a slave who became the key advisor to the King. He lived in the palace at a seat of honor above nearly all the nonslaves. In America, females slaves often raised all the children and may have did a better job then the socialite mother. The children may have felt they had two mothers. That is something to be proud of.
The descendants of the American slaves should be proud for another reason. It was this timely labor force that made the industrial revolution possible. The southern cotton would not have been in sufficent supply to get the ball rolling in the nothern factories cities, without their assistance. Eli Whitney was a slave who was an innovator. His cotton gin was pivotal. He helped make the future possible.
On the other side of the coin, most people seem to forget that America was the place where immigrants migrated for a better life, i.e, give us your wretched masses. The vast majority of white Americans descended from people who were considered the refuse of their home countries. Their country was glad to get rid of the problem.They didn't own slaves. They were a notch above slaves in their former countries. Once here they took a lot of crap and did the crappy jobs that helped the country progress.
What the liberals don't seem to realize is that their quick fix is going to create a backlash that will isolate the blacks even more. Most white people were descendants of peasants. I don't believe more than 5-10% of white could trace their linear to someone who had slaves.. The majority of white are going to feel victimized by being force to pay for something that neither they are their ancester had anything to do with. The dynamics is going to be like a bad divorce. A fair wife may just want to settle and get it over with so she can retain a good relationship with her ex, for the kids sake. But her lawyer is going to try to embitter her until she want to stick it to her exhusband. Her lawyer knows quite well, her husband will feel betrayed and will want to retaliate, requiring another lawyer. The other lawyer will fan the husband's fire getting him worked up. The two lawyer's goal is to blood suck the husband and wife as long as possible. A peaceful settlement isn't lucrative.
The liberal politians are not concerned about racial relatiionships moving forward in a peaceful way. They can blood suck longer and harder if they keep the fires of hurt and resentment perpetuated. After a bitter divorce, the husband and wife will not be friends and the (future) will suffer. If the wife needs help down the line, she will not get it without another round of blood sucking. If the settlement had been amicable the husband will be glad to help. The Liberals are like a shady wife's attorney trying to fan the hurt so it can suck her blood for votes. The blood letting will make her feel weak and not empowered.
QUOTE (tikay+Jun 29 2007, 10:53 PM)
Also I want to say that I do agree that "white" is a simplified term for a vast array of very different types of people, but so is black", they are both getting a bit dated...but what will we start to say, instead? I wonder what new terms will serve people? I hope they are more kind.
tikay,
I am not a "PC" person by any means. I certainly do not mind of people utilize the terms "whites" and "black" in a casual sense.
What I don't appreciate, however, is when people make sweeping generalizations like "whites are ignorant of how bad blacks have it", or "whites should pay reparations to blacks". This doesn't just group all fair-skinned peoples into a category, but it also wags the proverbial finger at them all, as if every one of them is somehow responsible for wrongdoing.
Furthermore, it's grouping all dark-skinned peoples into the category "blacks" and stereotyping them all as a group of people who (1) were horribly treated in the past, and (2) who feel that if they are granted a lump sum of money, they will suddenly be OK with how their ancestors were treated.
Well first of all, not all dark-skinned people even had ancestors in America during the pre-civil war era, and even for those who did, not all of them had ancestors who were slaves. Secondly, not all blacks are comfortable with the idea of accepting reparations because (1) they are not necessarily the types to accept handouts or pity, and (2) they are not necessarily comfortable trivializing the hardships of their cultural heritage with something as diminutive as a write-off check.
tikay,
I am not a "PC" person by any means. I certainly do not mind of people utilize the terms "whites" and "black" in a casual sense.
What I don't appreciate, however, is when people make sweeping generalizations like "whites are ignorant of how bad blacks have it", or "whites should pay reparations to blacks". This doesn't just group all fair-skinned peoples into a category, but it also wags the proverbial finger at them all, as if every one of them is somehow responsible for wrongdoing.
Furthermore, it's grouping all dark-skinned peoples into the category "blacks" and stereotyping them all as a group of people who (1) were horribly treated in the past, and (2) who feel that if they are granted a lump sum of money, they will suddenly be OK with how their ancestors were treated.
Well first of all, not all dark-skinned people even had ancestors in America during the pre-civil war era, and even for those who did, not all of them had ancestors who were slaves. Secondly, not all blacks are comfortable with the idea of accepting reparations because (1) they are not necessarily the types to accept handouts or pity, and (2) they are not necessarily comfortable trivializing the hardships of their cultural heritage with something as diminutive as a write-off check.
More excellent thoughts on the subject...a divorce, hunh? Where I am the first person to say lets be amenable.
Reparations? How about having thousands die ravaging the slave states and killing thousands. What does that come to in 2007 dollars?
QUOTE (brnhippies+Jun 30 2007, 01:47 AM)
Reparations? How about having thousands die ravaging the slave states and killing thousands. What does that come to in 2007 dollars?
It's not a quantifiable amount. Exactly the reason why you shouldn't try to quantify it and "pay people to forget it" so to speak.
How shall reparations work? Should it come from the federal government? Let me remind you that not everyone in the USA today is either black or white; there are many other cultures living here. Let me also remind you that all the money that the federal government has access to comes from the taxes of every citizen in the country. Even the ones that are Latino or Asian, for example. Should they be punished too, by having to pay extra for an issue that has nothing to do with them?
No? Well then should we select on a case-by-case basis who should pay, and who should receive? How will we decide? Not every black today is a victim. Not every white today is a perpetrator. What if my mom was white and my dad was black? Should I pay reparations to myself?
Monetary reparations for slavery is one of the dumbest and most self-centered concepts I can think of in modern times.
It's not a quantifiable amount. Exactly the reason why you shouldn't try to quantify it and "pay people to forget it" so to speak.
How shall reparations work? Should it come from the federal government? Let me remind you that not everyone in the USA today is either black or white; there are many other cultures living here. Let me also remind you that all the money that the federal government has access to comes from the taxes of every citizen in the country. Even the ones that are Latino or Asian, for example. Should they be punished too, by having to pay extra for an issue that has nothing to do with them?
No? Well then should we select on a case-by-case basis who should pay, and who should receive? How will we decide? Not every black today is a victim. Not every white today is a perpetrator. What if my mom was white and my dad was black? Should I pay reparations to myself?
Monetary reparations for slavery is one of the dumbest and most self-centered concepts I can think of in modern times.
Should we pay reparations to:
The 1.2 million Black business owners whose businesses had 89 BILLION in revenue in 02?
How about to the 1.1 million blacks with graduate or professional degrees?
How about to the 9.8% of the Officers in our military who are black?
How about to the 10% of the teachers in our schools who are black?
How about to the 16% of the Principals in our schools who are black?
Arthur
The 1.2 million Black business owners whose businesses had 89 BILLION in revenue in 02?
How about to the 1.1 million blacks with graduate or professional degrees?
How about to the 9.8% of the Officers in our military who are black?
How about to the 10% of the teachers in our schools who are black?
How about to the 16% of the Principals in our schools who are black?
Arthur
Everybody gets reparations. We take all of the private assets and redistribute them equally among the whole population. All labor gets divided equally to ensure that everyone works. Labor positions are continually rotated so that everyone makes an equal contribution to society. One may work as a surgeon on Monday and a strawberry picker on Tuesday.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 26 2007, 04:13 AM)
The big problem with this logic is the AVERAGE black person living outside of Africa is FAR better off financially than the AVERAGE black person living in Africa.
One could just as easily claim that the blacks were done an economic favor by being taken from Africa.
Arthur
I don't think that you are factoring in the possibility that the exodus of millions of people from Africa contributed its current state. And of course we know that colonization is the primary cause of the problems in Africa. So the problem can be blamed on both Britain and the US, which are almost the same country.
I came across this board looking for info on nanotechnology and I find something about race relations, weird!
One could just as easily claim that the blacks were done an economic favor by being taken from Africa.
Arthur
I don't think that you are factoring in the possibility that the exodus of millions of people from Africa contributed its current state. And of course we know that colonization is the primary cause of the problems in Africa. So the problem can be blamed on both Britain and the US, which are almost the same country.
I came across this board looking for info on nanotechnology and I find something about race relations, weird!
I'm black and the idea of reparations seems to be confusing for most people. I dint think that it makes sense to give every black person a check for whatever amount of money.
What would be beneficial is to set up a system where the state funds education instead of it being funded by the local taxes. And of course give extra money to all of the poorer districts, which most are predominately black, to get them up to speed. And from then on out every district in the state will receive equal funding and an equal share of experienced educators. (Because what happens is that most of the new teachers start out in the poorer districts and move to the better off one's, mostly because the poorer districts cannot afford to pay teachers who have more experience.)
I think that this system would solve some of our education problems better than NCLB.
Also in terms of affirmative action, I think that a lot of white people are insulted by it. But the problem is that companies, intentionally or not, do discriminate against black applicants. I think that people want to believe that racism is dead, but its simply not. The purpose of affirmative action was to combat this. I cant bring myself to believe that there are millions of white people out of a job due to this when the unemployment rate among blacks is higher, for a host of reasons of course. I highly doubt that companies or colleges will choose someone who is completely unqualified because they are black and pass on a spectacular white person. Most of the time there are 2 people with the same qualifications, normally the white person is chosen, but with affirmative action the black person would have a chance.
Not to mention that schools like University of Michigan, had a system set up that would diversify the campus. That benefits everyone, even the white people.
What would be beneficial is to set up a system where the state funds education instead of it being funded by the local taxes. And of course give extra money to all of the poorer districts, which most are predominately black, to get them up to speed. And from then on out every district in the state will receive equal funding and an equal share of experienced educators. (Because what happens is that most of the new teachers start out in the poorer districts and move to the better off one's, mostly because the poorer districts cannot afford to pay teachers who have more experience.)
I think that this system would solve some of our education problems better than NCLB.
Also in terms of affirmative action, I think that a lot of white people are insulted by it. But the problem is that companies, intentionally or not, do discriminate against black applicants. I think that people want to believe that racism is dead, but its simply not. The purpose of affirmative action was to combat this. I cant bring myself to believe that there are millions of white people out of a job due to this when the unemployment rate among blacks is higher, for a host of reasons of course. I highly doubt that companies or colleges will choose someone who is completely unqualified because they are black and pass on a spectacular white person. Most of the time there are 2 people with the same qualifications, normally the white person is chosen, but with affirmative action the black person would have a chance.
Not to mention that schools like University of Michigan, had a system set up that would diversify the campus. That benefits everyone, even the white people.
QUOTE (gopher65+Jun 25 2007, 11:07 PM)
I dunno. If they'd have asked ME what I wanted to be black, the question would have just confused me. Granted, I'm not an American, so... yeah. The first thing that would have popped into my head wouldn't have been race or prosperity, but what my initial starting conditions would have been, and what I’d like to grow up to be.
So if I'd have been asked, I'd have said: "if I was going to be reborn as a black baby, I'd want to be grow up to be very intelligent, hot, a lesbian, and have a good singing voice, with some moderate musical skills. I'd also like to be a good writer." I think I would have missed the point of this survey entirely. That’s just me though. It also wouldn’t have occurred to me to ask for money for such a change (that just seems... weird).
So I suspect that in order to get any meaningful data from this survey (and not just a bunch of random stuff like what I wrote down above), they had to give multiple choice answers (and maybe true/false questions too). Whenever you do that, you are telling your surveyees what you want them to think, and not allowing them to form their own opinions, or to conclude what they will from your questions. You are informing them what their answer will be. I wonder if this was a phone survey? When I get those, I just give randomized answers if they are multiple choice, or true/false.
A lesbian?
I don't know if I would become white for a million. It'd have to be more than that, maybe a 100 million and I wouldn't want to remember my past life. And I definitely wouldn't want to turn out like one of those rich skanky girls, like Paris Hilton or someone, I would want to be the same person, just white.
Alright my finished adding my 2 cents to this board!
So if I'd have been asked, I'd have said: "if I was going to be reborn as a black baby, I'd want to be grow up to be very intelligent, hot, a lesbian, and have a good singing voice, with some moderate musical skills. I'd also like to be a good writer." I think I would have missed the point of this survey entirely. That’s just me though. It also wouldn’t have occurred to me to ask for money for such a change (that just seems... weird).
So I suspect that in order to get any meaningful data from this survey (and not just a bunch of random stuff like what I wrote down above), they had to give multiple choice answers (and maybe true/false questions too). Whenever you do that, you are telling your surveyees what you want them to think, and not allowing them to form their own opinions, or to conclude what they will from your questions. You are informing them what their answer will be. I wonder if this was a phone survey? When I get those, I just give randomized answers if they are multiple choice, or true/false.
A lesbian?
I don't know if I would become white for a million. It'd have to be more than that, maybe a 100 million and I wouldn't want to remember my past life. And I definitely wouldn't want to turn out like one of those rich skanky girls, like Paris Hilton or someone, I would want to be the same person, just white.
Alright my finished adding my 2 cents to this board!
chevrongirl, you should post more here.
QUOTE (Latrosicarius+Jun 29 2007, 04:24 PM)
tikay,
I am not a "PC" person by any means. I certainly do not mind of people utilize the terms "whites" and "black" in a casual sense.
What I don't appreciate, however, is when people make sweeping generalizations like "whites are ignorant of how bad blacks have it", or "whites should pay reparations to blacks". This doesn't just group all fair-skinned peoples into a category, but it also wags the proverbial finger at them all, as if every one of them is somehow responsible for wrongdoing.
Furthermore, it's grouping all dark-skinned peoples into the category "blacks" and stereotyping them all as a group of people who (1) were horribly treated in the past, and (2) who feel that if they are granted a lump sum of money, they will suddenly be OK with how their ancestors were treated.
Well first of all, not all dark-skinned people even had ancestors in America during the pre-civil war era, and even for those who did, not all of them had ancestors who were slaves. Secondly, not all blacks are comfortable with the idea of accepting reparations because (1) they are not necessarily the types to accept handouts or pity, and (2) they are not necessarily comfortable trivializing the hardships of their cultural heritage with something as diminutive as a write-off check.
I guess we posted at the same time...I believe I basically agree with you on all points, but I still think that black and white are getting very dated.
I never said most of the things you insinuated that I said...or were you not?
Anyway~ I think you have misunderstod me, somewhere along the line. If so maybe you should retrace your steps. I only said that our dark-skinned cousins, the black folks, should have a major say in how it goes. Not that they will actually want it, need it, or accept this money offering for wrong-doing. I am not sure just yet where I stand on it. Honestly I have not spent much time thinking about this.
I am not a "PC" person by any means. I certainly do not mind of people utilize the terms "whites" and "black" in a casual sense.
What I don't appreciate, however, is when people make sweeping generalizations like "whites are ignorant of how bad blacks have it", or "whites should pay reparations to blacks". This doesn't just group all fair-skinned peoples into a category, but it also wags the proverbial finger at them all, as if every one of them is somehow responsible for wrongdoing.
Furthermore, it's grouping all dark-skinned peoples into the category "blacks" and stereotyping them all as a group of people who (1) were horribly treated in the past, and (2) who feel that if they are granted a lump sum of money, they will suddenly be OK with how their ancestors were treated.
Well first of all, not all dark-skinned people even had ancestors in America during the pre-civil war era, and even for those who did, not all of them had ancestors who were slaves. Secondly, not all blacks are comfortable with the idea of accepting reparations because (1) they are not necessarily the types to accept handouts or pity, and (2) they are not necessarily comfortable trivializing the hardships of their cultural heritage with something as diminutive as a write-off check.
I guess we posted at the same time...I believe I basically agree with you on all points, but I still think that black and white are getting very dated.
I never said most of the things you insinuated that I said...or were you not?
Anyway~ I think you have misunderstod me, somewhere along the line. If so maybe you should retrace your steps. I only said that our dark-skinned cousins, the black folks, should have a major say in how it goes. Not that they will actually want it, need it, or accept this money offering for wrong-doing. I am not sure just yet where I stand on it. Honestly I have not spent much time thinking about this.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jun 30 2007, 01:40 AM)
Everybody gets reparations. We take all of the private assets and redistribute them equally among the whole population. All labor gets divided equally to ensure that everyone works. Labor positions are continually rotated so that everyone makes an equal contribution to society. One may work as a surgeon on Monday and a strawberry picker on Tuesday.
One may but who does that?
I have not come across any farm laborers who used to be surgeons...are you just joking aroud? 
One may but who does that?
I have not come across any farm laborers who used to be surgeons...are you just joking aroud?
Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had similar ideas on the distribution of labor and the value of an education.
QUOTE (tikay+Jul 1 2007, 06:48 AM)
One may but who does that? I have not come across any farm laborers who used to be surgeons...are you just joking aroud?
The surgeons would have to be instructed in proper food handling techniques, but I think they could in time be trusted to help supply safe products for our dinner tables.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some very dexterous farm workers, with the proper training, could make exceptional surgeons.
I have not come across any farm laborers who used to be surgeons...are you just joking aroud? The surgeons would have to be instructed in proper food handling techniques, but I think they could in time be trusted to help supply safe products for our dinner tables.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some very dexterous farm workers, with the proper training, could make exceptional surgeons.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 1 2007, 06:58 AM)
Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had similar ideas on the distribution of labor and the value of an education.
Pol Pot was a deranged monster who unfortunately got control of a country. Abuses of power can exist in any government system. The various US administrations from the 1950s -1970s propagated a war in Vietnam that took more lives than Pol Pot. The founding fathers of the United States were slave holders. So what's your point?
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 1 2007, 04:45 AM)
The surgeons would have to be instructed in proper food handling techniques, but I think they could in time be trusted to help supply safe products for our dinner tables.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some very dexterous farm workers, with the proper training, could make exceptional surgeons.
And convesely the farm laborors would have to be instructed in the procedures of surgery.
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
They all represent skills one that takes APPTITUDE and DESIRE and ABILITY and SPECILIZED TRAINING to master.
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
Arthur
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some very dexterous farm workers, with the proper training, could make exceptional surgeons.
And convesely the farm laborors would have to be instructed in the procedures of surgery.
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
They all represent skills one that takes APPTITUDE and DESIRE and ABILITY and SPECILIZED TRAINING to master.
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
Arthur
QUOTE (tikay+Jul 1 2007, 06:35 AM)
I guess we posted at the same time...I believe I basically agree with you on all points, but I still think that black and white are getting very dated.
I never said most of the things you insinuated that I said...or were you not?
Anyway~ I think you have misunderstod me, somewhere along the line. If so maybe you should retrace your steps. I only said that our dark-skinned cousins, the black folks, should have a major say in how it goes. Not that they will actually want it, need it, or accept this money offering for wrong-doing. I am not sure just yet where I stand on it. Honestly I have not spent much time thinking about this.
tikay, I'm sorry if it looked like I was directing my comments to you. In fact, I was using your quote and building on it because I agreed with it. I was directing those comments to the sort of people who wrote that article.
I never said most of the things you insinuated that I said...or were you not?
Anyway~ I think you have misunderstod me, somewhere along the line. If so maybe you should retrace your steps. I only said that our dark-skinned cousins, the black folks, should have a major say in how it goes. Not that they will actually want it, need it, or accept this money offering for wrong-doing. I am not sure just yet where I stand on it. Honestly I have not spent much time thinking about this.
tikay, I'm sorry if it looked like I was directing my comments to you. In fact, I was using your quote and building on it because I agreed with it. I was directing those comments to the sort of people who wrote that article.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 1 2007, 01:01 PM)
And convesely the farm laborors would have to be instructed in the procedures of surgery.
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
They all represent skills one that takes APPTITUDE and DESIRE and ABILITY and SPECILIZED TRAINING to master.
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
Arthur
Exactly, you can't "specialize" in everything. Ever heard of the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"?
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
They all represent skills one that takes APPTITUDE and DESIRE and ABILITY and SPECILIZED TRAINING to master.
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
Arthur
Exactly, you can't "specialize" in everything. Ever heard of the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"?
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 1 2007, 10:34 AM)
Pol Pot was a deranged monster who unfortunately got control of a country. Abuses of power can exist in any government system. The various US administrations from the 1950s -1970s propagated a war in Vietnam that took more lives than Pol Pot. The founding fathers of the United States were slave holders. So what's your point?
Actually, it was John Kennedy who started the Vietnam War by sending in “advisors” without any clear understanding of Ho Che Ming. That was in the early 60’s. Not the 50’s.
In the 50’s the French were somewhat busy at Dien Bien Phu.
Actually, it was John Kennedy who started the Vietnam War by sending in “advisors” without any clear understanding of Ho Che Ming. That was in the early 60’s. Not the 50’s.
In the 50’s the French were somewhat busy at Dien Bien Phu.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jun 30 2007, 11:58 PM)
Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had similar ideas on the distribution of labor and the value of an education.
Only someone who has had a decent education would have the nards to say that.
The worst part is I think you actually believe that only some (of you) needed to have a good education. Apparently the rest are meant to suffer the menial positions, while the well off take the higher paying jobs, as it was meant to be.
I can't believe the audacity of people sometimes. A person should be allowed to be educated with a quality teaching atmosphere about them, for as long as they are willing to learn. Then when they are ready to do something for work, in any capacity, it will absolutely benefit their town, their country or even the whole of mankind. This has been done before after all. Lacking education often leads a person to indulge in criminality, and that benefits the warden in that he keeps a steady job. Not everyone wants to be an Einstein but most want more education than they are receiving. Want more for their children than they are offered.
Skin-color should never exclude a person from an education. Nor should financial status.
Have you seen any charts on how poorly we Americans are doing comparatively, with other first world nations ?
Only someone who has had a decent education would have the nards to say that.
The worst part is I think you actually believe that only some (of you) needed to have a good education. Apparently the rest are meant to suffer the menial positions, while the well off take the higher paying jobs, as it was meant to be.
I can't believe the audacity of people sometimes. A person should be allowed to be educated with a quality teaching atmosphere about them, for as long as they are willing to learn. Then when they are ready to do something for work, in any capacity, it will absolutely benefit their town, their country or even the whole of mankind. This has been done before after all. Lacking education often leads a person to indulge in criminality, and that benefits the warden in that he keeps a steady job. Not everyone wants to be an Einstein but most want more education than they are receiving. Want more for their children than they are offered.
Skin-color should never exclude a person from an education. Nor should financial status.
Have you seen any charts on how poorly we Americans are doing comparatively, with other first world nations ?
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 1 2007, 06:01 AM)
And convesely the farm laborors would have to be instructed in the procedures of surgery.
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
They all represent skills one that takes APPTITUDE and DESIRE and ABILITY and SPECILIZED TRAINING to master.
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
Arthur
The problem is that while the surgeon could be quickly trained to do the work of a farm laborer, they probably never would stay with it, because they have a decent education...and lacking that, the laborer is made to stay, forced by need to survive.
There will always be someone to pick strawberrys, we may be assured. There will always be a need to pay these people a fair wage, just as back when the union began, at the prompting of people like deigo rivera, and a couple of ol' timey singers in america...(brain freeze) whatever...now I am pissy (about derek!)
...woody guthry was one person who cared about the plight of farm laborers.
when I get mad I can't think straight...heres a link to woody:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Guthrie
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
They all represent skills one that takes APPTITUDE and DESIRE and ABILITY and SPECILIZED TRAINING to master.
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
Arthur
The problem is that while the surgeon could be quickly trained to do the work of a farm laborer, they probably never would stay with it, because they have a decent education...and lacking that, the laborer is made to stay, forced by need to survive.
There will always be someone to pick strawberrys, we may be assured. There will always be a need to pay these people a fair wage, just as back when the union began, at the prompting of people like deigo rivera, and a couple of ol' timey singers in america...(brain freeze) whatever...now I am pissy (about derek!)
...woody guthry was one person who cared about the plight of farm laborers.when I get mad I can't think straight...heres a link to woody:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Guthrie
Pol Pot targeted the intellectuals in his regime of terror.
Are you angry because there are college graduates in the world? Do you believe all college graduates came from wealthy families?
This Marxist approach of redistribution of labor and wealth has proven to be a failed and subsequently discarded system everywhere but this forum (and maybe Cuba).
Are you angry because there are college graduates in the world? Do you believe all college graduates came from wealthy families?
This Marxist approach of redistribution of labor and wealth has proven to be a failed and subsequently discarded system everywhere but this forum (and maybe Cuba).
QUOTE (tikay+Jul 1 2007, 02:54 PM)
The problem is that while the surgeon could be quickly trained to do the work of a farm laborer, they probably never would stay with it, because they have a decent education...and lacking that, the laborer is made to stay, forced by need to survive.
There will always be someone to pick strawberrys, we may be assured. There will always be a need to pay these people a fair wage, just as back when the union began, at the prompting of people like deigo rivera, and a couple of ol' timey singers in america...(brain freeze) whatever...now I am pissy (about derek!)
...woody guthry was one person who cared about the plight of farm laborers.when I get mad I can't think straight...heres a link to woody:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Guthrie
This wasn't meant as a put down to Farm workers, just to illustrate why rotation of people into different skilled jobs is an unworkable concept.
It would be just as pertinent to say:
I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was designing a Rocket last Monday.
Secondly, no one is forced to stay anything.
While circumstances might make advancement more difficult for some, still history is filled with people who overcame all manner of hardship, adversity, poverty, as well as incredible physical handicaps and yet went on to lead amazingly productive lives.
Arthur
QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 1 2007, 02:17 PM)
Pol Pot targeted the intellectuals in his regime of terror.
Are you angry because there are college graduates in the world? Do you believe all college graduates came from wealthy families?
This Marxist approach of redistribution of labor and wealth has proven to be a failed and subsequently discarded system everywhere but this forum (and maybe Cuba).
Don't be ridiculous! I was angry because it seems to be a pattern with the educated~ to say how certain folk don't need one. Not right, really. Once a person is educated they should try not being a smart a$$ about those who didn't get what they have. I don't know, it just irks me. There should be a whole lot more college educated folks in this country. Nothing wrong with a good education, it isn't a Marxist goal...geez!
The post was not about this, once again we are off topic.
Are you angry because there are college graduates in the world? Do you believe all college graduates came from wealthy families?
This Marxist approach of redistribution of labor and wealth has proven to be a failed and subsequently discarded system everywhere but this forum (and maybe Cuba).
Don't be ridiculous! I was angry because it seems to be a pattern with the educated~ to say how certain folk don't need one. Not right, really. Once a person is educated they should try not being a smart a$$ about those who didn't get what they have. I don't know, it just irks me. There should be a whole lot more college educated folks in this country. Nothing wrong with a good education, it isn't a Marxist goal...geez!
The post was not about this, once again we are off topic.
QUOTE (tikay+Jul 2 2007, 07:46 AM)
Skin-color should never exclude a person from an education. Nor should financial status. Have you seen any charts on how poorly we Americans are doing comparatively, with other first world nations ?
Unfortunately it is never as easy as this.
New Zealand, where I live, has a very good record (though not perfect) of civil rights and equality with race, sex and religion. But looking at the statistics, NZ performs very badly as far as education outcomes for Māori boys. It isn't through lack of effort by the education system or government. I think some of the telling factors are due to family and peer group expectations.
NZ has a very good social welfare system, but I think this is part of the problem. It is all too easy for people to fall out of the education system into welfare. When there are families who have been welfare dependent for generations, this is a difficult cycle to break.
Gangs are a problem, particularly with our Māori boy education issue. There are often very strong social pressures on teenage boys to become gang members. Education is not a priority for these people.
Have you seen any charts on how poorly we Americans are doing comparatively, with other first world nations ? Unfortunately it is never as easy as this.
New Zealand, where I live, has a very good record (though not perfect) of civil rights and equality with race, sex and religion. But looking at the statistics, NZ performs very badly as far as education outcomes for Māori boys. It isn't through lack of effort by the education system or government. I think some of the telling factors are due to family and peer group expectations.
NZ has a very good social welfare system, but I think this is part of the problem. It is all too easy for people to fall out of the education system into welfare. When there are families who have been welfare dependent for generations, this is a difficult cycle to break.
Gangs are a problem, particularly with our Māori boy education issue. There are often very strong social pressures on teenage boys to become gang members. Education is not a priority for these people.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 1 2007, 04:15 PM)
Secondly, no one is forced to stay anything.
While circumstances might make advancement more difficult for some, still history is filled with people who overcame all manner of hardship, adversity, poverty, as well as incredible physical handicaps and yet went on to lead amazingly productive lives.
Arthur
I wasn't really angry with you...the left over madness...from derek was lingering, I thought I got that across...
And of course you are right, many people move ahead from poverty and designed really excellant futures for themselves.
But you also know that some of these folks have the option to move up in any field...but some only move to the next bean field, and the pay is terrible.
No one goes out there to recruit those guys for a better position, no one working in the 100 degree heat, expects to be recruited for a job as an executive administrator either. That isn't the problem. We all know that strawberry and bean fields, are where some illegal immigrants find work...
That is another subject altogether.
I am not trying to show my redneck, blue-collar roots. I'm cool now, sorry.
QUOTE (philip347+Jun 30 2007, 07:00 AM)
There is very strong evidence, that there was once a large continent off the coast of Florida.
This continent, could have spooned influences in America, as well as the area known as Basque.
Back to your usual drivel, I see philip309
This continent, could have spooned influences in America, as well as the area known as Basque.
Back to your usual drivel, I see philip309
QUOTE (N O M+Jul 1 2007, 06:46 PM)
Unfortunately it is never as easy as this.
New Zealand, where I live, has a very good record (though not perfect) of civil rights and equality with race, sex and religion. But looking at the statistics, NZ performs very badly as far as education outcomes for Māori boys. It isn't through lack of effort by the education system or government. I think some of the telling factors are due to family and peer group expectations.
NZ has a very good social welfare system, but I think this is part of the problem. It is all too easy for people to fall out of the education system into welfare. When there are families who have been welfare dependent for generations, this is a difficult cycle to break.
Gangs are a problem, particularly with our Māori boy education issue. There are often very strong social pressures on teenage boys to become gang members. Education is not a priority for these people.
NOM that is pretty discouraging, I hope those kids get some help with setting good priority's. I think the islanders do often get trapped into a pattern of receiving the easy payments from the welfare system. It shapes a way of life. I am so sorry to hear that the kids are getting into gangs. Guess that is going on almost everywhere.
New Zealand, where I live, has a very good record (though not perfect) of civil rights and equality with race, sex and religion. But looking at the statistics, NZ performs very badly as far as education outcomes for Māori boys. It isn't through lack of effort by the education system or government. I think some of the telling factors are due to family and peer group expectations.
NZ has a very good social welfare system, but I think this is part of the problem. It is all too easy for people to fall out of the education system into welfare. When there are families who have been welfare dependent for generations, this is a difficult cycle to break.
Gangs are a problem, particularly with our Māori boy education issue. There are often very strong social pressures on teenage boys to become gang members. Education is not a priority for these people.
NOM that is pretty discouraging, I hope those kids get some help with setting good priority's. I think the islanders do often get trapped into a pattern of receiving the easy payments from the welfare system. It shapes a way of life. I am so sorry to hear that the kids are getting into gangs. Guess that is going on almost everywhere.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 1 2007, 01:01 PM)
And convesely the farm laborors would have to be instructed in the procedures of surgery.
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
NO
Specialized labor (even of farm work) is NOT something one can ROTATE.
Whether its being a Surgeon or Policeman or Welder or Lawyer or Roofer or Programmer or Road Worker or Architect or Mechanic or Physicist or Landscaper or Home Maker or Pilot or Plumber or Arborist or ..... doesn't matter.
Anyone with enough apprenticeship and training, could in one degree or another, assume an alternate occupational position. Obviously some jobs would take quite a lot of training, but most could be sufficiently mastered in a relatively short period of time. Exposure to a variety of different jobs would identify the talents of many who would have never had the opportunity to express such talents. Who among us would not benefit from the additional skills and understanding that would be gained through sharing occupational duties.
QUOTE
So NO, I don't think you will find many people who want to live in a world where the surgeon scheduled to operate on you on Tuesday was picking strawberries last Monday.
What about a surgeon who is heavily drinking on Monday, and hung over on Tuesday for your surgery? Or, someone who clears brush on Wednesday, and attempts to lead a nation on Thursday.QUOTE (Derek1148+Jul 1 2007, 05:39 PM)
Actually, it was John Kennedy who started the Vietnam War by sending in “advisors” without any clear understanding of Ho Che Ming. That was in the early 60’s. Not the 50’s.
In the 50’s the French were somewhat busy at Dien Bien Phu.
In the 50’s the French were somewhat busy at Dien Bien Phu.
And who was aiding the French in Vietnam the 50s? And who basically took over the role of opposing Uncle Ho after the French decided to leave in 1954? US advisers were in the country throughout the 50s.
Upon reflection your point is taken. Kennedy did increase the troop levels but the United States’ involvement did precede the 60’s. In the early 40’s the United States was involved in providing advice and training there. Actually assisting Ho.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 2 2007, 05:27 AM)
Anyone with enough apprenticeship and training, could in one degree or another, assume an alternate occupational position. Obviously some jobs would take quite a lot of training, but most could be sufficiently mastered in a relatively short period of time.
But WHAT is the point?
Its a BAD idea on SO MANY LEVELS that I can't believe you actually think that the idea makes sense.
Becoming a Surgeon takes 4 years of college + 4 years Med School + 3 years Residency + 2 - 6 years in your surgical specialty. A typical minimum of 13 years after high school.
The net of this is that NO ONE becomes a Surgeon without an INCREDIBLE amount of dedication to becoming a surgeon along with a LOT of inate talent and an astronomical amount of HARD WORK.
But after ALL THAT TRAINING you think it makes SENSE to send the Surgeon out to pick Strawberries?
Conversely, do you REALLY think that its just lack of proper training that prevents ANY OL Tom, *** or Harriet from becoming a surgeon?
That Medical Schools could JUST AS WELL pick names at random from the Class of 07 and admit them to their program?
Irrelevant.
Both Farm Workers and Surgeons drink so having a drunk operate on you is not wise.
But, all things considered, I'd STILL much rather have a hung over Surgeon than a STONE COLD SOBER farm worker performing the operation any day of the week.
Arthur
But WHAT is the point?
Its a BAD idea on SO MANY LEVELS that I can't believe you actually think that the idea makes sense.
Becoming a Surgeon takes 4 years of college + 4 years Med School + 3 years Residency + 2 - 6 years in your surgical specialty. A typical minimum of 13 years after high school.
The net of this is that NO ONE becomes a Surgeon without an INCREDIBLE amount of dedication to becoming a surgeon along with a LOT of inate talent and an astronomical amount of HARD WORK.
But after ALL THAT TRAINING you think it makes SENSE to send the Surgeon out to pick Strawberries?
Conversely, do you REALLY think that its just lack of proper training that prevents ANY OL Tom, *** or Harriet from becoming a surgeon?
That Medical Schools could JUST AS WELL pick names at random from the Class of 07 and admit them to their program?
QUOTE
What about a surgeon who is heavily drinking on Monday, and hung over on Tuesday for your surgery?
Irrelevant.
Both Farm Workers and Surgeons drink so having a drunk operate on you is not wise.
But, all things considered, I'd STILL much rather have a hung over Surgeon than a STONE COLD SOBER farm worker performing the operation any day of the week.
Arthur
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 2 2007, 03:27 AM)
Anyone with enough apprenticeship and training, could in one degree or another, assume an alternate occupational position. Obviously some jobs would take quite a lot of training, but most could be sufficiently mastered in a relatively short period of time. Exposure to a variety of different jobs would identify the talents of many who would have never had the opportunity to express such talents. Who among us would not benefit from the additional skills and understanding that would be gained through sharing occupational duties.
What about a surgeon who is heavily drinking on Monday, and hung over on Tuesday for your surgery? Or, someone who clears brush on Wednesday, and attempts to lead a nation on Thursday.
that reminded me of my drunk physician, on Christmas...with a needle and thread in hand after I had given birth to my son Mateo was born Christmas night, nearing the midnight hour...no it wasn't too funny at the time.
But I remember making light of his being a little tipsy, and asking him for a favor...you can just guess what it was
I think the laborer can move up to something like dishwasher, then maybe prep-cook and eventually restaurant management, but that...even that is not as likely as the restaurant owner hiring someone who has studied the trade...and keeping the cook in the kitchen. So that wages for the less educated remain stale. The investment in an education is hard to take on with family...and work taking up your time, many don't feel there is time for school after a point in life. They make enough to pay the bills and eventually maybe buy their own home and that seems successful, so scraping by seems the only way to go.
I have invested in a future by taking a paralegal course, but I don't know if I will find a job i can stay with, and one that pays well. That is all caught up in the future dream. We shall see, my daughter begins school in about a week, I will look for work. I could never self-promote so i never made it as an artist.
I would like to write but there is a flaw in my skills, I'm just not ready yet.
I want to build a home, pass some land on to my children one day...we shall see.
If I make enough money I can help my sons get more educated. Otherwise they will probably not get enough, for real success in life...it is personal, here.
I have done almost every sort of menial work, luckily I enjoyed most of it. Nothing was too hideous, or kinky.
What about a surgeon who is heavily drinking on Monday, and hung over on Tuesday for your surgery? Or, someone who clears brush on Wednesday, and attempts to lead a nation on Thursday.
that reminded me of my drunk physician, on Christmas...with a needle and thread in hand after I had given birth to my son Mateo was born Christmas night, nearing the midnight hour...no it wasn't too funny at the time.But I remember making light of his being a little tipsy, and asking him for a favor...you can just guess what it was
I think the laborer can move up to something like dishwasher, then maybe prep-cook and eventually restaurant management, but that...even that is not as likely as the restaurant owner hiring someone who has studied the trade...and keeping the cook in the kitchen. So that wages for the less educated remain stale. The investment in an education is hard to take on with family...and work taking up your time, many don't feel there is time for school after a point in life. They make enough to pay the bills and eventually maybe buy their own home and that seems successful, so scraping by seems the only way to go.
I have invested in a future by taking a paralegal course, but I don't know if I will find a job i can stay with, and one that pays well. That is all caught up in the future dream. We shall see, my daughter begins school in about a week, I will look for work. I could never self-promote so i never made it as an artist.
I would like to write but there is a flaw in my skills, I'm just not ready yet.
I want to build a home, pass some land on to my children one day...we shall see.
If I make enough money I can help my sons get more educated. Otherwise they will probably not get enough, for real success in life...it is personal, here.
I have done almost every sort of menial work, luckily I enjoyed most of it. Nothing was too hideous, or kinky.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 2 2007, 11:06 AM)
But WHAT is the point?
We are all bordering on becoming dirty bast*** Commies!
hunh Derek?
Isn't that how Hoh Chi Minh got in here?
We are all bordering on becoming dirty bast*** Commies!
hunh Derek?
Isn't that how Hoh Chi Minh got in here?
Ho Chi Minh ?
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/VNhochiminh.htm
ARE you afraid we are going to become communists?
dude! I am a humanist...always have been, the closest thing to this is a socialist.
Communists have wrecked too much havoc!
Look at Mao Tse Tung in Tibet...atrocious anti-the-people activity there!
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/mao.html
I am violently opposed to communist activities such as this!
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/VNhochiminh.htm
ARE you afraid we are going to become communists?
dude! I am a humanist...always have been, the closest thing to this is a socialist.
Communists have wrecked too much havoc!
Look at Mao Tse Tung in Tibet...atrocious anti-the-people activity there!
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/mao.html
I am violently opposed to communist activities such as this!
QUOTE (tikay+Jul 2 2007, 05:13 PM)
NOM that is pretty discouraging, I hope those kids get some help with setting good priority's. I think the islanders do often get trapped into a pattern of receiving the easy payments from the welfare system. It shapes a way of life. I am so sorry to hear that the kids are getting into gangs. Guess that is going on almost everywhere.
I'm not meaning to be discouraging. I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple issue (almost said black and white
). It's not all about race, it's not all about social pressures, sometimes it's just because teenagers don't like being told what to do. There is hope, it just takes those in control of the education systems to acknowledge that a one-size system does not fit all.
I'm not meaning to be discouraging. I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple issue (almost said black and white
). It's not all about race, it's not all about social pressures, sometimes it's just because teenagers don't like being told what to do. There is hope, it just takes those in control of the education systems to acknowledge that a one-size system does not fit all.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 2 2007, 06:06 PM)
But WHAT is the point?
Its a BAD idea on SO MANY LEVELS that I can't believe you actually think that the idea makes sense.
Its a BAD idea on SO MANY LEVELS that I can't believe you actually think that the idea makes sense.
My point is that a surgeon is not always a surgeon. Sometimes they get drunk, sometimes they mow lawns, and some may have gardens where they pick there own strawberries. Amazingly, surgeons can perform these tasks and still manage to be proficient at in their chosen field of surgery.
What page of the Communist Manifesto did this come from?
What page of the Communist Manifesto did this come from?
QUOTE
Becoming a Surgeon takes 4 years of college + 4 years Med School + 3 years Residency + 2 - 6 years in your surgical specialty. A typical minimum of 13 years after high school.
Or, in the case of a combat medic, 16 weeks. Not that this is a formula for the creation of the ideal surgeon, it does show that basic medical and surgical skills can be quickly mastered. As with any profession, frequency of practice is often more important than time spent in training. QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Becoming a Surgeon takes 4 years of college + 4 years Med School + 3 years Residency + 2 - 6 years in your surgical specialty. A typical minimum of 13 years after high school. |
Or, in the case of a combat medic, 16 weeks. Not that this is a formula for the creation of the ideal surgeon, it does show that basic medical and surgical skills can be quickly mastered. As with any profession, frequency of practice is often more important than time spent in training.
The net of this is that NO ONE becomes a Surgeon without an INCREDIBLE amount of dedication to becoming a surgeon along with a LOT of inate talent and an astronomical amount of HARD WORK.
The net of this is that NO ONE becomes a Surgeon without an INCREDIBLE amount of dedication to becoming a surgeon along with a LOT of inate talent and an astronomical amount of HARD WORK.
Ideally that would be the case. Unfortunately the mediocre still get through the process, and for society's sake, these surgeons might be better off in the strawberry fields. On the other hand, an untapped surgical talent may be waiting to be discovered toiling in the strawberry fields.
QUOTE
But after ALL THAT TRAINING you think it makes SENSE to send the Surgeon out to pick Strawberries?
Getting back to the subject of the fairness of reparations, I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa. If you could eventually get to a point where everyone was highly skilled and educated, someone would still have to do the dirty work, so in that case it would have to be shared by all. What page of the Communist Manifesto did this come from?
QUOTE (Capracus+)
I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa.
I guess you missed the fact that Communism was deemed a "failed experiment" by its major practicioners.
You keep missing the point.
While a surgeon could pick strawberries a strawberry picker could not be as QUALIFIED as the surgeon without the SAME LENGTHY TRAINING.
The extreme length of this training PRECLUDES us from having an EXCESS of surgeons.
Which is why we have NO TIME for the surgeons to be out picking strawberries.
Your comparison of a glorified EMT, a combat medic, to a Surgeon is rediculous. A Combat Medic does not do surgery and has FAR less training than an RN, which is 4 years less than an MD, which is another 3-6 years less than a Surgeon.
What is your basis for making the assumption that all that training is NOT necessary?
Arthur
I guess you missed the fact that Communism was deemed a "failed experiment" by its major practicioners.
You keep missing the point.
While a surgeon could pick strawberries a strawberry picker could not be as QUALIFIED as the surgeon without the SAME LENGTHY TRAINING.
The extreme length of this training PRECLUDES us from having an EXCESS of surgeons.
Which is why we have NO TIME for the surgeons to be out picking strawberries.
Your comparison of a glorified EMT, a combat medic, to a Surgeon is rediculous. A Combat Medic does not do surgery and has FAR less training than an RN, which is 4 years less than an MD, which is another 3-6 years less than a Surgeon.
What is your basis for making the assumption that all that training is NOT necessary?
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 3 2007, 01:16 PM)
What page of the Communist Manifesto did this come from?
QUOTE (Capracus+)
I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa.
I guess you missed the fact that Communism was deemed a "failed experiment" by its major practicioners.
I guess you missed the fact that Communism was deemed a "failed experiment" by its major practicioners.
My statement has nothing to do with former experiments and theories of communism. Whether it be righting past injustice or trying to efficiently manage future societies, our present social model is not structured to effectively deal with many issues that need attention. If you apply our social model to the whole world, you encourage overpopulation, exhaustion of resources, environmental degradation, and further division in social class. The statement from the Declaration of Independence, "that all all men are created equal" should have been changed to "all men are created to be made equal." After all, isn't that really the ultimate goal of our society? If not, it should be.
QUOTE
You keep missing the point.
While a surgeon could pick strawberries a strawberry picker could not be as QUALIFIED as the surgeon without the SAME LENGTHY TRAINING.
No, you're ignoring my earlier point that if you could realize the goal of a society that is composed of highly educated and skilled members, who does the dirty work, who picks the strawberries? The elevation of the low end of society would require a shift in responsibility by all. If strawberry pickers are being trained as surgeons, then if the surgeon wants strawberries, he may have to pick his own. Don't keep taking this metaphor so literally.While a surgeon could pick strawberries a strawberry picker could not be as QUALIFIED as the surgeon without the SAME LENGTHY TRAINING.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You keep missing the point. While a surgeon could pick strawberries a strawberry picker could not be as QUALIFIED as the surgeon without the SAME LENGTHY TRAINING. |
No, you're ignoring my earlier point that if you could realize the goal of a society that is composed of highly educated and skilled members, who does the dirty work, who picks the strawberries? The elevation of the low end of society would require a shift in responsibility by all. If strawberry pickers are being trained as surgeons, then if the surgeon wants strawberries, he may have to pick his own. Don't keep taking this metaphor so literally.
Your comparison of a glorified EMT, a combat medic, to a Surgeon is rediculous. A Combat Medic does not do surgery and has FAR less training than an RN, which is 4 years less than an MD, which is another 3-6 years less than a Surgeon.
What is your basis for making the assumption that all that training is NOT necessary?
Your comparison of a glorified EMT, a combat medic, to a Surgeon is rediculous. A Combat Medic does not do surgery and has FAR less training than an RN, which is 4 years less than an MD, which is another 3-6 years less than a Surgeon.
What is your basis for making the assumption that all that training is NOT necessary?
Combat medics preform as much surgical techniques as the situation allows. A remote battle field situation doesn't allow for complex procedures. Medics perform cricothyroidotomies (airway incisions), suture wounds, control bleeding, all functions that are similarly exercised by surgeons in a clinical setting. I'm not trying to imply that medics or EMTs are qualified to replace experienced surgeons, only that with some relatively minimal training, they can perform some of the functions of a surgeon. Medical training could easily be incorporated into primary and secondary school course work. Much of the technical aspects of surgery are akin to vocational studies. Instead of dissecting frogs, students could be performing autopsies and surgical procedures on real and simulated human corpses.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 4 2007, 05:34 AM)
The statement from the Declaration of Independence, "that all all men are created equal" should have been changed to "all men are created to be made equal." After all, isn't that really the ultimate goal of our society? If not, it should be.
I think maybe that you may have missed a point that is very important (but your right in that it happens all the time) when the declaration says, all men are created equal it implies BORN equal when born to America, thus born to the same opportunity's to thrive or fail. it is not exactly on par with reality but I think they meant this country to be the just system of government that would allow the ultimate equality implied.
Hmmm, maybe you are correct. Maybe we should do more to assign a person more equality. by endeavoring to give a balance through new systems in government that stabilize by interacting with citizens. A government that finds out what the people need and supplies it would be great. is that what you are saying?
I think i misunderstood what you wanted to talk about. A more structured institution that did not hand out food and shelter but education and skills training would serve the people more. I think we agree there. The idea of teaching a man to fish, not giving him a fish...that would be awesome. If people were fed and sheltered while learning to fish, and allowed to become a part of a healthy economy where jobs were always available...what an improvement that would be.
Right now the welfare system is failing a people because the education part is not being taken advantage of by so many. Many don't want to seek out the funded education that is available because they are not well or, they are addicted or have bigger problems altogether than schooling. When the government decides to do something more to fix the glaring problems here in America, many will be ready to partake. There is a lot available with grants and loans but people see an unstable workplace.
I am sure I will need to move to get a good paying job. moving to where there is work because it is not here (Lancaster, CA) I will have to either go back to L.A. or elsewhere. If the economy was good, I would not have to move away to get work.
As long as there are strawberry's there will be people who will pick them. Even if they get a better wage than their predecessors.
Wage increases are just a necessary thing...minimum wages are not enough to live on anymore with out of control inflation. Plus the media which inundates the average person, has one needing more and more to be counted as average. How hard it is to be simple anymore. With a constant barrage of the latest phones and i-pods and trivia spilling from every other advertisement. Very hard to keep it Zen. It's shopping gone wild!
I think maybe that you may have missed a point that is very important (but your right in that it happens all the time) when the declaration says, all men are created equal it implies BORN equal when born to America, thus born to the same opportunity's to thrive or fail. it is not exactly on par with reality but I think they meant this country to be the just system of government that would allow the ultimate equality implied.
Hmmm, maybe you are correct. Maybe we should do more to assign a person more equality. by endeavoring to give a balance through new systems in government that stabilize by interacting with citizens. A government that finds out what the people need and supplies it would be great. is that what you are saying?
I think i misunderstood what you wanted to talk about. A more structured institution that did not hand out food and shelter but education and skills training would serve the people more. I think we agree there. The idea of teaching a man to fish, not giving him a fish...that would be awesome. If people were fed and sheltered while learning to fish, and allowed to become a part of a healthy economy where jobs were always available...what an improvement that would be.
Right now the welfare system is failing a people because the education part is not being taken advantage of by so many. Many don't want to seek out the funded education that is available because they are not well or, they are addicted or have bigger problems altogether than schooling. When the government decides to do something more to fix the glaring problems here in America, many will be ready to partake. There is a lot available with grants and loans but people see an unstable workplace.
I am sure I will need to move to get a good paying job. moving to where there is work because it is not here (Lancaster, CA) I will have to either go back to L.A. or elsewhere. If the economy was good, I would not have to move away to get work.
As long as there are strawberry's there will be people who will pick them. Even if they get a better wage than their predecessors.
Wage increases are just a necessary thing...minimum wages are not enough to live on anymore with out of control inflation. Plus the media which inundates the average person, has one needing more and more to be counted as average. How hard it is to be simple anymore. With a constant barrage of the latest phones and i-pods and trivia spilling from every other advertisement. Very hard to keep it Zen. It's shopping gone wild!
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 4 2007, 07:34 AM)
My statement has nothing to do with former experiments and theories of communism.
Bull,
I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa.
That's about as good a general definition of Communism as I've heard lately.
Problem is it DOESN'T work.
Never has.
Never will.
Why?
Because people have different inate abilities, desires, motivations etc.
Some people want to work outside on a ship in the middle of the ocean, some get seasick just thinking about it.
Some want to get dirty and up to their elbows in muck, some want to paint the world white and then clean it with bleach.
Some people enjoy school, while others hate it.
Which is why going to college is NOT for everybody.
YOUR failure is to think people are somehow LESS based on their education and job choice.
Just like you apparently equate manual effort with "dirty work".
YOU are putting YOUR ideas of what is "good" or "bad" as a valid yardstick for the rest of humanity.
But neither YOU nor ANYONE ELSE is a valid judge of what ANYONE ELSE should do with their life.
So NO, no one with ANY SENSE at all about the human condition wants to change the Declaration of Independence to say: "all men are created to be made equal."
YIKES.
Get a grip.
Arthur
Bull,
QUOTE (Capracus+)
I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa.
That's about as good a general definition of Communism as I've heard lately.
Problem is it DOESN'T work.
Never has.
Never will.
Why?
Because people have different inate abilities, desires, motivations etc.
Some people want to work outside on a ship in the middle of the ocean, some get seasick just thinking about it.
Some want to get dirty and up to their elbows in muck, some want to paint the world white and then clean it with bleach.
Some people enjoy school, while others hate it.
Which is why going to college is NOT for everybody.
YOUR failure is to think people are somehow LESS based on their education and job choice.
Just like you apparently equate manual effort with "dirty work".
YOU are putting YOUR ideas of what is "good" or "bad" as a valid yardstick for the rest of humanity.
But neither YOU nor ANYONE ELSE is a valid judge of what ANYONE ELSE should do with their life.
So NO, no one with ANY SENSE at all about the human condition wants to change the Declaration of Independence to say: "all men are created to be made equal."
YIKES.
Get a grip.
Arthur
adoucette :) Are you implying that there are basic humanitarian facts that we all share? Like being human, no matter your height color race sex living standards etc? Good for you man. Yep, I believe that too. Also i believe that prejudice rules:) And that it goes for everyone, one way or another.
QUOTE (yor_on+Jul 7 2007, 03:19 PM)
adoucette 
Are you implying that there are basic humanitarian facts that we all share? Like being human, no matter your height color race sex living standards etc?
Yes,
But even with EQUAL OPPORTUNITY you STILL won't get an EQUAL RESULT.
Just look at siblings from the same family and see how INDIVIDUAL ABILITIES, CHOICES and DESIRES can generate wildly different outcomes.
Arthur
Are you implying that there are basic humanitarian facts that we all share? Like being human, no matter your height color race sex living standards etc? Yes,
But even with EQUAL OPPORTUNITY you STILL won't get an EQUAL RESULT.
Just look at siblings from the same family and see how INDIVIDUAL ABILITIES, CHOICES and DESIRES can generate wildly different outcomes.
Arthur
Equal opportunity is provided in US, but equal rights to everything is not quite the same. In a free enterprise system, say you have ten loggers of various skills, the one who chops the most trees gets the most. This could either mean more strength/skill or longer hours. There is incentive to work hard since reward is proportion to effort.
If we pool all the trees and split it ten ways the person who worked hardest gets less than he deserves. The hardest worker can either bust butt for the group or work half as hard to balance his effort and reward. This makes the entire pile smaller so the next time we divide it, everyone gets less. That is why Communists countries tend to go into rationing. The hardest workers eventually work in proportion to their small reward.
As a different scenario, college grades are often in the shape of a bell curve with only a few A's given to exceptional students. What we do instead of the bell curve, is average the entire class and give everyone a B-. Whether one parties all the time, cuts class, fails every exam, etc.,, or whether one is a workaholic they still get a B-. The partier will depend on the workaholics to keep the average up so they can play and do well. The workaholics will get sick of their role as average booster, i.e., no time for fun, and will eventually begin slack. Then the entire average falls.
Try this on an individual basis, if one is school, be communal and average one of yours A's with another person's C to help them out; both will get a B for that same couse. Or if one is working and making 60K, average that with someone making 20K so you both get 40K. This is a good way to collect pilot data before scale-up.
The real solution is state of mind. Back in the 1950's the average family did not have a cell phone, computer, surround sound, more than one car, a color TV, FM radio, intenet connection, etc.. By modern standards they would be considered destitude. Yet they felt well off. They didn't know they were supposed to be all bummed out. What was important was family and friends and good food. Advertising creates subjective demand to sell product. Once the desire becomes an addiction one can not live without it, i.e., like a lover. If one can not run with the herd they feel left out.
This upcoming holiday season, the I-phone will be a hot item. Some kids and adults will feel less than important if they don't get one. Those who do, will flaunt it to look important. It is state of mind created by advertising and an induced irrational desire. This will increase the separation between rich and poor. The dynamics for this item is not based on need, but desire. One will not die without it. On the other hand, not having it may not allow one to get their nut off.
This is the distinction; need versus desire. Govenment can not satify everyone's induce free market desires, but it can help with needs. Free enterprise puts desire in the hands of the individual. The separation between rich and poor is less due to needs ,but due to the inability of the poor to satisfy marketing desires. What happens in Communists countries is with wealth falling desires decrease so there is less separation at that level. But eventually lack of free enterprise cuts into needs.
If you go back to the 1950's they felt well off because their needs as humans were satisfied. There was not yet, all the modern free market induced desire, that create a longing that gets so strong it begins to feel like a basic need is not being met. The govenment should help feed people but it should not set up a fixed market brothol. If satisfying market induced desire is important, one as to get off their chair, and bust a move.
If we pool all the trees and split it ten ways the person who worked hardest gets less than he deserves. The hardest worker can either bust butt for the group or work half as hard to balance his effort and reward. This makes the entire pile smaller so the next time we divide it, everyone gets less. That is why Communists countries tend to go into rationing. The hardest workers eventually work in proportion to their small reward.
As a different scenario, college grades are often in the shape of a bell curve with only a few A's given to exceptional students. What we do instead of the bell curve, is average the entire class and give everyone a B-. Whether one parties all the time, cuts class, fails every exam, etc.,, or whether one is a workaholic they still get a B-. The partier will depend on the workaholics to keep the average up so they can play and do well. The workaholics will get sick of their role as average booster, i.e., no time for fun, and will eventually begin slack. Then the entire average falls.
Try this on an individual basis, if one is school, be communal and average one of yours A's with another person's C to help them out; both will get a B for that same couse. Or if one is working and making 60K, average that with someone making 20K so you both get 40K. This is a good way to collect pilot data before scale-up.
The real solution is state of mind. Back in the 1950's the average family did not have a cell phone, computer, surround sound, more than one car, a color TV, FM radio, intenet connection, etc.. By modern standards they would be considered destitude. Yet they felt well off. They didn't know they were supposed to be all bummed out. What was important was family and friends and good food. Advertising creates subjective demand to sell product. Once the desire becomes an addiction one can not live without it, i.e., like a lover. If one can not run with the herd they feel left out.
This upcoming holiday season, the I-phone will be a hot item. Some kids and adults will feel less than important if they don't get one. Those who do, will flaunt it to look important. It is state of mind created by advertising and an induced irrational desire. This will increase the separation between rich and poor. The dynamics for this item is not based on need, but desire. One will not die without it. On the other hand, not having it may not allow one to get their nut off.
This is the distinction; need versus desire. Govenment can not satify everyone's induce free market desires, but it can help with needs. Free enterprise puts desire in the hands of the individual. The separation between rich and poor is less due to needs ,but due to the inability of the poor to satisfy marketing desires. What happens in Communists countries is with wealth falling desires decrease so there is less separation at that level. But eventually lack of free enterprise cuts into needs.
If you go back to the 1950's they felt well off because their needs as humans were satisfied. There was not yet, all the modern free market induced desire, that create a longing that gets so strong it begins to feel like a basic need is not being met. The govenment should help feed people but it should not set up a fixed market brothol. If satisfying market induced desire is important, one as to get off their chair, and bust a move.
.111.[R]How to Slay a Black Dragon and Raise The Golden Orus...King Paulo J.Tx.C.Mn.[R].111.
...sSTA = Secrets of Egypts Hidden Earth...
--------------HOTEP-----PHAROAH----AHA------------
HT.PTH = HAT OF PUTAH with U. (You)
HT.PTH = Upside Down Big Dipper empties The Food and Water of JA MN.(Black Broad Brimmed Hat Pot)
JA = Oldest Father of Africa and Europe.
Asia = YA = Condemned.
IA = Acceptable for the purpose of MALE and Europe only.
JA is JAY is JAW is JUICE.
Never...(condemned).
Those are some focal points for Zep Tepi.
For when they placed U in Putah, then as you see today, they made harlots out of all of us.
In mind and flesh.
So here, we are within reach of that 8 letter name for Zatan,for 3 are missing like The Trinity of Time and Dimensions.
The Forbidden Name that Herodotus feared to mention as they also did for the bible, for this is why you know no names of Pharaohs in the black second book.
But, you know him as Satan or Leviathon or Lucifer for Neferous was it as the pth phrhs.
Watch and Learn from the mystic for our time.
.............HT.PTH...................
What do you see that is mirrored???
HT - TH. The eths of Seths and Elizabeths.
HaT of TAH = Darkness of Earth. Got it?
Do you really understand?
Let's Continue towards the forbidden name with your Shield of Atlantis and Flaming Swords of Avila's True Garden.
For The Black Pillars of T have been reversed to White.
As the nations lords and lordesses also will become.
With Bona Fide of TAT or TOA...or Verdade Athanatos.
Tell All Truth and Truth of Ages is Tribes of Atlanteans.
The Light of Oricalcum.
HT.PTH = 5 letters set up for change, or The Black Horus, December 10th,3474.bC replaces Golden Horus,Jesa The Pure who was murdered by Snoferu (Zin of Heru and Meru),the Hermaphrodite embodiement of The Son of The Elder.
3 to make 8, the Trapped Dimension like your Computers.
The Eternal Number to flip 9 to 6.
9 is Father's number, for 1 was bothered by 8.
11 is Father's True number like our Pillars for Eternal Father IS ALWAYS (AE)...THE LION KING.
So,K is also the 11th letter as H is the 8th.
See???
Life evolves from 0-10, 0 is The Womb,our Universe.
10 is our perfections along the path to reach.
AA = Father and Mother.
All we need is YOU.(U)
.............HAT.PTAH............
P is Prince or Father (PA) or Seed (Pod)
Now, let us condemn U ALL.
.........HAT.PUTAH...................
........WIDE BLACK BRIMMED HAT OF HARLOTRY......
Puta or Putah = Latin = WHORE.
What letters compose Whore?
W = Woman, an upside down Man (M)
H = Harlot
O = Ovary
R = King
E = Eve
Eve was raped and defiled and prostituted for her ovaries and her brother was murdered by Hellions.
Cain and Able.
Souls of No Man.
JoAb and boAZ = JA and ZA with two Harlots of Ob.
The Greatest Battle for Us.
Who would Free The Son of Our Eternal Father from this Forbidden name?
5480 years have passed since December The 10th.
The True Symbology of V.
By The Sage of The Blue Sash.
AeJor Mn.
And The Flaming Sword of Avila.
Which all you can see for yourself with your very own Eyes of The Two Pillars of Senses for our...
......ConTENTions........
Atlantean King Paulo J.Tx.C.Mn.
8489.aJA
4:37 PM 7/9/2007.anno Do Min of Lions.
MNESEUS for IT IS WRITTEN.
Father AeJon Guide Us.
I Love U ALL to NEVER FALL.
FOR A IS RISEN.
Z is fallen.
/~perasa1.mts.net
...sSTA = Secrets of Egypts Hidden Earth...
--------------HOTEP-----PHAROAH----AHA------------
HT.PTH = HAT OF PUTAH with U. (You)
HT.PTH = Upside Down Big Dipper empties The Food and Water of JA MN.(Black Broad Brimmed Hat Pot)
JA = Oldest Father of Africa and Europe.
Asia = YA = Condemned.
IA = Acceptable for the purpose of MALE and Europe only.
JA is JAY is JAW is JUICE.
Never...(condemned).
Those are some focal points for Zep Tepi.
For when they placed U in Putah, then as you see today, they made harlots out of all of us.
In mind and flesh.
So here, we are within reach of that 8 letter name for Zatan,for 3 are missing like The Trinity of Time and Dimensions.
The Forbidden Name that Herodotus feared to mention as they also did for the bible, for this is why you know no names of Pharaohs in the black second book.
But, you know him as Satan or Leviathon or Lucifer for Neferous was it as the pth phrhs.
Watch and Learn from the mystic for our time.
.............HT.PTH...................
What do you see that is mirrored???
HT - TH. The eths of Seths and Elizabeths.
HaT of TAH = Darkness of Earth. Got it?
Do you really understand?
Let's Continue towards the forbidden name with your Shield of Atlantis and Flaming Swords of Avila's True Garden.
For The Black Pillars of T have been reversed to White.
As the nations lords and lordesses also will become.
With Bona Fide of TAT or TOA...or Verdade Athanatos.
Tell All Truth and Truth of Ages is Tribes of Atlanteans.
The Light of Oricalcum.
HT.PTH = 5 letters set up for change, or The Black Horus, December 10th,3474.bC replaces Golden Horus,Jesa The Pure who was murdered by Snoferu (Zin of Heru and Meru),the Hermaphrodite embodiement of The Son of The Elder.
3 to make 8, the Trapped Dimension like your Computers.
The Eternal Number to flip 9 to 6.
9 is Father's number, for 1 was bothered by 8.
11 is Father's True number like our Pillars for Eternal Father IS ALWAYS (AE)...THE LION KING.
So,K is also the 11th letter as H is the 8th.
See???
Life evolves from 0-10, 0 is The Womb,our Universe.
10 is our perfections along the path to reach.
AA = Father and Mother.
All we need is YOU.(U)
.............HAT.PTAH............
P is Prince or Father (PA) or Seed (Pod)
Now, let us condemn U ALL.
.........HAT.PUTAH...................
........WIDE BLACK BRIMMED HAT OF HARLOTRY......
Puta or Putah = Latin = WHORE.
What letters compose Whore?
W = Woman, an upside down Man (M)
H = Harlot
O = Ovary
R = King
E = Eve
Eve was raped and defiled and prostituted for her ovaries and her brother was murdered by Hellions.
Cain and Able.
Souls of No Man.
JoAb and boAZ = JA and ZA with two Harlots of Ob.
The Greatest Battle for Us.
Who would Free The Son of Our Eternal Father from this Forbidden name?
5480 years have passed since December The 10th.
The True Symbology of V.
By The Sage of The Blue Sash.
AeJor Mn.
And The Flaming Sword of Avila.
Which all you can see for yourself with your very own Eyes of The Two Pillars of Senses for our...
......ConTENTions........
Atlantean King Paulo J.Tx.C.Mn.
8489.aJA
4:37 PM 7/9/2007.anno Do Min of Lions.
MNESEUS for IT IS WRITTEN.
Father AeJon Guide Us.
I Love U ALL to NEVER FALL.
FOR A IS RISEN.
Z is fallen.
/~perasa1.mts.net
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 7 2007, 08:09 PM)
Bull,
I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa.
That's about as good a general definition of Communism as I've heard lately.
Problem is it DOESN'T work.
Never has.
Never will.
QUOTE (Capracus+)
I think that fairness can be best obtained through the equal distribution of wealth and labor. To achieve this equality, those considered at the top of the labor force, i.e., surgeons would be expected to assume some of the responsibilities of the low end, i.e., strawberry pickers, and vice versa.
That's about as good a general definition of Communism as I've heard lately.
Problem is it DOESN'T work.
Never has.
Never will.
How about a social group where resources are expended somewhat equally, regardless of ability or behavior. Members of the highest ability commonly perform the tasks of members of the lowest ability. As members acquire greater skills, they are usually expected to contribute more to the maintenance and welfare of the group. Members often have varying likes and abilities and are encouraged to explore their potentials in these areas. When some members reach a certain level of competency, they are expected to go forth and start and lead a similar group of their own, kind of like a movement of dominoes. Some would label such an organization a red menace, others would recognize it as an ideal American family.
Can you honestly say that you're satisfied with the performance of our culture as a whole? You don't see the waste of resources and talent on endeavors that do little for the betterment of mankind and the planet? Do you want to continue this competition to see how much BS can be marketed and sold to an ever expanding population of brainwashed consumers?
People don't have wants and desires for no reason, they are conditioned by the culture they are exposed to. If the culture emphasizes cooperation, diversity of skills and education, its members will respond in kind. If it emphasizes individual success, exploitation and resignation to a life unfulfilled, then we get what we have today. Most people would not consider their occupations ideal, and if they had their basic needs met, would gladly explore other endeavors.
Can you honestly say that you're satisfied with the performance of our culture as a whole? You don't see the waste of resources and talent on endeavors that do little for the betterment of mankind and the planet? Do you want to continue this competition to see how much BS can be marketed and sold to an ever expanding population of brainwashed consumers?
People don't have wants and desires for no reason, they are conditioned by the culture they are exposed to. If the culture emphasizes cooperation, diversity of skills and education, its members will respond in kind. If it emphasizes individual success, exploitation and resignation to a life unfulfilled, then we get what we have today. Most people would not consider their occupations ideal, and if they had their basic needs met, would gladly explore other endeavors.
No, I don't think our culture "emphasizes exploitation and resignation to a life unfulfilled"
Nor do I think it de-emphasizes "cooperation, diversity of skills and education".
No I don't think consumers are "brain washed"
No I don't think one can extrapolate from FAMILY dynamics to COMMUNITY dynamics.
No I don't think we waste talent, but then that is not something that one can easily measure. I would say the progress the world has made over the last 50 years is pretty IMPRESSIVE however.
Do you have an ACTUAL suggestions for change or how you would more equally distribute wealth and labor?
Arthur
Nor do I think it de-emphasizes "cooperation, diversity of skills and education".
No I don't think consumers are "brain washed"
No I don't think one can extrapolate from FAMILY dynamics to COMMUNITY dynamics.
No I don't think we waste talent, but then that is not something that one can easily measure. I would say the progress the world has made over the last 50 years is pretty IMPRESSIVE however.
Do you have an ACTUAL suggestions for change or how you would more equally distribute wealth and labor?
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 12 2007, 04:29 AM)
No, I don't think our culture "emphasizes exploitation and resignation to a life unfulfilled."
So to perpetuate lifestyles that are wasteful and harmful for the sake of monetary gain is not exploitation?
QUOTE
Nor do I think it de-emphasizes "cooperation, diversity of skills and education".
It creates dependency rather than cooperation, specialization rather than diversity of the individual.QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Nor do I think it de-emphasizes "cooperation, diversity of skills and education". |
It creates dependency rather than cooperation, specialization rather than diversity of the individual.
No I don't think consumers are "brain washed."
No I don't think consumers are "brain washed."
Made intentionally ignorant or brain washed, what's the difference? Consumers would be better off without a good deal of the products that are marketed to them, yet the culture promotes this consumption because it allows one to profit from the ignorance or the addiction of another.
QUOTE
No I don't think one can extrapolate from FAMILY dynamics to COMMUNITY dynamics.
Of course you can, the dynamics are the same, only the scale is different. Everything beautiful and ugly contained in one, exists in the other. The ideal goal in each should be to minimize the ugly. QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No I don't think one can extrapolate from FAMILY dynamics to COMMUNITY dynamics. |
Of course you can, the dynamics are the same, only the scale is different. Everything beautiful and ugly contained in one, exists in the other. The ideal goal in each should be to minimize the ugly.
No I don't think we waste talent, but then that is not something that one can easily measure. I would say the progress the world has made over the last 50 years is pretty IMPRESSIVE however.
No I don't think we waste talent, but then that is not something that one can easily measure. I would say the progress the world has made over the last 50 years is pretty IMPRESSIVE however.
Many talented individuals will never apply their talent where it could be most useful for a number of reasons. Bottom line, our culture does not nurturer and direct its talent. As long as the least of its members get ignored, the potential talent of our society will be squandered. As long as individual gain over service is encouraged, talent will be wasted.
Everyone is granted a minimum quantity of personal land and property.
All commercial business is nationalized and retained based on social worth.
Currency is replaced by a credit system.
All market systems other than the state are abolished.
Population and resource usage would be efficiently regulated.
Credits would be awarded for contribution to social works based on the degree of potential exercised.
Credits would also be awarded for training and education.
Credits could be exchanged for additional personal goods and services from the state.
QUOTE
Do you have an ACTUAL suggestions for change or how you would more equally distribute wealth and labor?
Everyone is granted a minimum quantity of personal land and property.
All commercial business is nationalized and retained based on social worth.
Currency is replaced by a credit system.
All market systems other than the state are abolished.
Population and resource usage would be efficiently regulated.
Credits would be awarded for contribution to social works based on the degree of potential exercised.
Credits would also be awarded for training and education.
Credits could be exchanged for additional personal goods and services from the state.
Who decides WHAT lifestyle is WASTEFUL/HARMFUL? YOU or Someone who AGREES with YOUR VIEWS?
Personally I WANT my SCIENTISTS/DOCTORS/ENGINEERS/FARMERS/AUTO MECHANICS/PILOTS/PLUMBERS/CONSTRUCTION WORKERS etc etc etc to BE SPECIALIZED. In fact I INSIST that they go to the appropriate schools, get the appropriate training, maintain the proper licences and keep up with changes in their fields.
Again, Who decides what products consumers would be better off without? YOU or someone who agrees with YOUR VIEWS?
Sheesh, We keep Aunt Agnes out of sight as much as possible.
Your opinion on talent is simply your opinion, but what I see is that there is a VAST AMOUNT of prizes for those who seek them. The MAJORITY of the prizes are based fundamentally on TALENT. So YES, our culture MOST DEFINITELY encourages EVERYONE to FIND and HONE their talents. The BEST part, is the INDIVIDUAL gets to decide what TALENTS they WANT to exploit.
Personally I WANT my SCIENTISTS/DOCTORS/ENGINEERS/FARMERS/AUTO MECHANICS/PILOTS/PLUMBERS/CONSTRUCTION WORKERS etc etc etc to BE SPECIALIZED. In fact I INSIST that they go to the appropriate schools, get the appropriate training, maintain the proper licences and keep up with changes in their fields.
Again, Who decides what products consumers would be better off without? YOU or someone who agrees with YOUR VIEWS?
Sheesh, We keep Aunt Agnes out of sight as much as possible.
Your opinion on talent is simply your opinion, but what I see is that there is a VAST AMOUNT of prizes for those who seek them. The MAJORITY of the prizes are based fundamentally on TALENT. So YES, our culture MOST DEFINITELY encourages EVERYONE to FIND and HONE their talents. The BEST part, is the INDIVIDUAL gets to decide what TALENTS they WANT to exploit.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 16 2007, 09:57 AM)
Everyone is granted a minimum quantity of personal land and property.
All commercial business is nationalized and retained based on social worth.
Currency is replaced by a credit system.
All market systems other than the state are abolished.
Population and resource usage would be efficiently regulated.
Credits would be awarded for contribution to social works based on the degree of potential exercised.
Credits would also be awarded for training and education.
Credits could be exchanged for additional personal goods and services from the state.
Friggin AMAZING.
Again, this list is just COMMUNISM 101.
Do you get MORE CREDITS for a day working in the STRAWBERRY FIELDS or in SURGERY???
Arthur
All commercial business is nationalized and retained based on social worth.
Currency is replaced by a credit system.
All market systems other than the state are abolished.
Population and resource usage would be efficiently regulated.
Credits would be awarded for contribution to social works based on the degree of potential exercised.
Credits would also be awarded for training and education.
Credits could be exchanged for additional personal goods and services from the state.
Friggin AMAZING.
Again, this list is just COMMUNISM 101.
Do you get MORE CREDITS for a day working in the STRAWBERRY FIELDS or in SURGERY???
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jul 16 2007, 02:17 PM)
Who decides WHAT lifestyle is WASTEFUL/HARMFUL? YOU or Someone who AGREES with YOUR VIEWS?
Who decides now? Whether you realize it or not, society has evolved certain standards, some good, some bad. We are constantly through laws and regulations attempting to influence societal behavior, what I propose is nothing different.
Who decides now? Whether you realize it or not, society has evolved certain standards, some good, some bad. We are constantly through laws and regulations attempting to influence societal behavior, what I propose is nothing different.
QUOTE
Personally I WANT my SCIENTISTS/DOCTORS/ENGINEERS/FARMERS/AUTO MECHANICS/PILOTS/PLUMBERS/CONSTRUCTION WORKERS etc etc etc to BE SPECIALIZED. In fact I INSIST that they go to the appropriate schools, get the appropriate training, maintain the proper licences and keep up with changes in their fields.
Why is it not advantageous to have people broadly educated and trained? I'm not saying that specialization is nonexistent, only that it not be exclusive. Everyone has the ability to understand and engage in the essential services of society to one degree or another, and that exploration should be encouraged. QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Personally I WANT my SCIENTISTS/DOCTORS/ENGINEERS/FARMERS/AUTO MECHANICS/PILOTS/PLUMBERS/CONSTRUCTION WORKERS etc etc etc to BE SPECIALIZED. In fact I INSIST that they go to the appropriate schools, get the appropriate training, maintain the proper licences and keep up with changes in their fields. |
Why is it not advantageous to have people broadly educated and trained? I'm not saying that specialization is nonexistent, only that it not be exclusive. Everyone has the ability to understand and engage in the essential services of society to one degree or another, and that exploration should be encouraged.
Again, Who decides what products consumers would be better off without? YOU or someone who agrees with YOUR VIEWS?
Again, Who decides what products consumers would be better off without? YOU or someone who agrees with YOUR VIEWS?
Ideally its a collective decision based on an informed society, which isn't the case we have today.
QUOTE
Sheesh, We keep Aunt Agnes out of sight as much as possible.
What the heck is that suppose to mean?QUOTE (->