Howdy all, I am new here.
My question is a variation of the dual-slit experiment.
Has an experiment been done, where the slits are created in photogenic paper.
With no detectors.
Start firing one photon at a time. After each shot. Determine where it lands, either on the front detector/screen that has the dual-slits, or that rear detector/screen.
If the photon is fired, and not detected on either screen, "it cancels itself out".
Would the same be true with an electron? If so, then matter can just disappear?
Thanks all...
The question you pose supposes that we can predict the emission of a photon and correlate it with the detection of that same photon. Until recently it has been impossible to emit single photons exactly on demand. It is possible recently with the application of quantum dots. How do you propose to detect the emission of single photons and the absorption of single photons "with no detectors"?
The act of "canceling out" would need a lot more checking than just the front slitted plate and rear screen being checked... the whole instrument would need to become involved before you could say that a single photon was "canceled out". What about "reflection" at odd angles??
The last line is a very great "non-sequiter". I can think of several other possibilities even before this "accountancy' failed. Still a good starting point for discussion. Any other ideas out there?
Cheers
WideBody
24th May 2008 - 07:47 AM
Good Elf,
Thanks for the response.
just a clarification... by no detectors, I mean no detectors on/around the slits.
Imagine the front two slits being made of photogenic paper, similar to the back screen, that either shows an inference pattern or not.
Trippy
24th May 2008 - 08:13 AM
Part of the point of the 2-slit experiment is that while you might see individual dots constituting where individual photons have hit the paper, cumulatively they form the interference pattern as a statistical distribution.
As I understand it, there's no way of predicting which of the two slits it passes through, even were it possible to emit single photons, because there's always two possible paths.
DavidD
24th May 2008 - 03:31 PM
Interference can be in some cases even between separate lasers light. Photon can't cancel himslef, becouse imposible to create such device. It only can cancel, but occure in over place like in double slit experiment and in Mach-Zenhder interferometer...
But two photon's I am almost sure can cancel each over (anihilate - with oposit phases).
Ron
24th May 2008 - 05:34 PM
QUOTE (DavidD+May 24 2008, 03:31 PM)
Interference can be in some cases even between separate lasers light. Photon can't cancel himslef, becouse imposible to create such device. It only can cancel, but occure in over place like in double slit experiment and in Mach-Zenhder interferometer...
But two photon's I am almost sure can cancel each over (anihilate - with oposit phases).
If this were the case, David, you would blow up every lab that you worked in (although, I don't know if this is common practice for you anyway). Annihilation releases the most energy that we are able to release.
Peace,
Ron
Good Elf
24th May 2008 - 11:20 PM
Hi WideBody, Ron, DavidD, Trippy et al,
QUOTE (DavidD @ May 24 2008+ 03:31 PM)
Interference can be in some cases even between separate lasers light. Photon can't cancel himslef, becouse imposible to create such device. It only can cancel, but occure in over place like in double slit experiment and in Mach-Zenhder interferometer...
But two photon's I am almost sure can cancel each over (anihilate - with oposit phases).
Photons do interfere "with each other" and "pick up source information" from the other photons in a "cavity"... or so it would appear. Huygens constructions of wavelets show this is the only way you can produce these quaint patterns... patterns of expanding circles from each slit. We know this "fact" about interference as an experimental reality. Because photons "travel" directly from the slits to the screen a direct application of path of least action (the don't bounce around on longer paths to achieve this interference) we are not able to immediately identify what these "standing waves" apparently mean. A simple "screen" will show a variation in luminous intensity if the photons are forced to "extinguish" on the plane surface of the detector or screen. A thick "translucent" photographic emulsion will show that there is far more information to be found in the "interferences" that just a straight simple interference pattern from the two slits. The position and arrangement of all reachable objects in the experiment will be recoverable if the holographic pattern is illuminated with a laser beam of the same frequency that it was originally exposed. There was a heated argument between the die hard quantum theorists of the 1950's and the experimentalists about this "disturbing fact"... it was messing around with the pure theory. Since the photons traveled directly from source to sink (somewhere in the emulsion at an "antinode") the question is how did the photons gather the additional information which is "depth encoded" in the emulsion when they arrived there that codes for the rest of the cavity shape? The answer is not that the photon interfered with the other photons in the cavity and picked up the "impressions" from them in some mutual interference way. Why not?? Because this experiment can be performed one photon at a time (with relatively huge gaps in time between each photon). This means whatever information each single flash of light is conveying to the emulsion is felt by one lone photon as it moves through the cavity from the source to the sink. The interferences are "picked up" not from other photons but from the standing matter waves we can't see in the cavity... from an "interaction" with a quasi-stationary cavity filling set of nodes and antinodes which "predispose" energywise the individual propagating photon to be absorbed in a suitable emulsion at the "antinodes" that we find in the developed hologram.
Since a single photon does all of this and also can move through as many slits at the same time in "self interference", it must move as a wave not as a particle. "Particles" can't pass through two holes at the same time. The assumption in quantum theory is called "locality" and the photon is a "particle" and has some coordinate position at all times "when measured". Standard quantum theory provides this localized particle with a solution that involves only statistics at the expense of wiping the history of this emission absorption phenomenon. This was a very good joke for 80 years since nobody could "prove" otherwise. Niels Bohr "bullied" the scientific community into believing this "fiction" and nobody since wanted to argue otherwise. Currently the "shell game" has moved from this dogma to a "softer position" that the photon can have no existence between where it formed and where it is detected. It exists in a superposition of all possible states. Now we can interfere with the "particle" again, not for real but in an uncollapsed state in "superposition"... a "many worlds" state. But is this "many worlds"... meaning the other "possibilities" that were never experienced? Now it is possible to show unequivocally that a single photon has an individual history since the emission of a photon and it's absorption can be "logged" proving a "particle" that passes through a double slit has a unique "history". You can also show that the individual photons are affected by what is in between the source and the sink (on the screen)... just vary the slit width and note the change in pattern. We also know that actually blocking a single slit alters the experiment into a single slit diffraction (Airy) Pattern. I believe this establishes that the individual photon actually "physically" passes the slit and is a wave not a particle.
The only limiting problem of this quandary is the photon is absorbed as a whole not as parts. That is what being a quantum "really means". It does not mean that we are dealing with little marbles being fired from some kind of BB gun. The propagating photons in a coherent LASER beam are expanding waves existing in the one quantum "boson" state and all occupy the same "spreading" volume because this is a gauge invariant theory of electromagnetism not a theory of BB pellets. The round pegs have been forced into a square hole and the argument was formerly that it made no difference... shut up and calculate. You can "cover for the old theory" by invoking "magic"... how long will people believe that? Probably forever if authorities insist. My view is look to the experiment not to the authorities... make up your own minds.
All those who want to discuss this conundrum please place your scientific arguments here...
Cheers
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