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Meem
QUOTE
Choices cranks make are:
1. avoiding educating yourself
2. ignoring any and all people who have educated themselves



Ya, still doesn't make any sense. No matter how small the piece you try to slice the apple pie into, it is still an apple pie.

1. Ignore me, because I have educated myself.
2. Don't ignore people who have educated themselves.

Tamato
Tamatoe
RobDegraves
Reading comprehension.

Meem

0
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 12 2009, 01:24 PM)
Tamato
Tamatoe

Sounds like you've heard this phrase so many times that you have forgotten what it actually means.

Tomato?
Tomatoe?

or maybe you just can't spell

Oh yeah, you're from Texas, the most back-a$$-wards education system in the US.
AlexG
Why are you feeding the troll?
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (AlexG+Jul 12 2009, 02:14 PM)
Why are you feeding the troll?

Meem's not clever enough to troll.
Meem
From Michigan actually, I've lived in many places, about to move to Colorado. I bet you hardly ever go you your front door, because the Internet provides you with the world at your finger tips.

So much for proving your intelligence ... to me, or anyone else for that matter.
RobDegraves
Actually, both AlexG and flyingbuttressman have proved their intelligence to a number of people. You have not. Seriously, you have posted nothing of any worth so far as I can see... and volumes of garbage... any reason why you remain where you are obviously neither wanted nor valued, other than trolling?
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 12 2009, 12:12 AM)
==============================================================
Given 5 objects, each of which can be in an "off" or "on" state, and where each object begins in the "on" state, what is the probability that after 10 random operations of turning an object off or on, precisely 2 objects will be in an "on" state?
===============================================================

... is 62.9533248%

CORRECTION: In the interests of accuracy:

"precisely 2 objects will be in an "on" state?" should have read:

precisely 2 objects will be in an "OFF" state?

As I calculated the probabilities (only basic maths required...), the chances that 5, 3 or 1 objects are "ON" after ten steps is:

5: 6.47616%
4: 0%
3: 62.9533248%
2: 0%
1: 30.5705152%

Based on the "flow" of the values up to ten steps, I am assuming the values converge to some constant, but I would have to investigate further. Pairing the averages of odd and even steps, I might add, there would seem to be a pretty nice bell-ish type distribution taking form...
Nihilist
I’m interrupting again but I have to add something. Everyone seems to get thrown dramatically off topic after about the second page of posts. Perhaps a better question then “How to discourage a crank?” is “How to keep people on topic?”
rpenner
I calculate (using the method of stochastic matrices) that the chance that 3 lights are on, starting with 5 out of 5 lights on, and making 10 random toggles as
6140420/9765625 = 0.628779008 = 62.8779008
octave: ((diag([1:5],-1)+diag(1+5-[1:5],1))^10)(1+5-5,1+5-3)/5^10

But do you have a source for this problem, since it would be testing radically different skills if you are looking for an answer for 2 or 3 lights on.
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (rpenner+Jul 13 2009, 03:17 AM)
I calculate (using the method of stochastic matrices) that the chance that 3 lights are on, starting with 5 out of 5 lights on, and making 10 random toggles as
6140420/9765625 = 0.628779008 = 62.8779008
octave: ((diag([1:5],-1)+diag(1+5-[1:5],1))^10)(1+5-5,1+5-3)/5^10

But do you have a source for this problem, since it would be testing radically different skills if you are looking for an answer for 2 or 3 lights on.

I calculated the problem "longhand," RPenner, and felt confident, and still do, that the results were correct given that the percentages...

5: 6.47616%
4: 0%
3: 62.9533248%
2: 0%
1: 30.5705152%

... add up exactly to 100%.

This said, I was using pen and paper, not a calculator and, as much I tried to check my work, it is possible I erred somewhere along the way. When I have the proper time, I will post the basic logic behind the calculation(s), not for you, but for others. Because it is not brain surgery and one of my "signature issues" is that I believe we make that which is simple seem far too complex.

One point, again for others (and hopefully I am not "dyslexically" flipping anything here...): After an even number of "steps" only 5,3 or 1 objects can be in an "on" state. After an odd number of steps, only 0, 2 or 4 objects can be in the "on" state.

THE SOURCE: Past readings regarding Permutations/Symmetry in tandem with disconnecting cables on the set of "The Royal Pains," a TV Show on the USA Network, this past week. It got me thinking about how many different ways I could perform the 10 steps of connection/disconnection and "get it right," meaning not "blow up" hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of lighting equipment and/or put others or my own safety at risk.

Kindest Regards,
Raphie

P.S. By the way, I thank you, as always, for giving me insight into how one would perform the same calculations via what one might term "proper" mathematical techniques. Best, RF.
rpenner
What troubles me about your answers is that they have to be multiplied by 5^9 times 2^3 to be integers. Since you have 5 switches to choose from, it stands to reason that after 10 throws of the switch all statements about probability of a state have to be multiplied only by 5^9 to turn to integers. ( Not 5^10 since for the very first throw you always go from 5 lights on to 4 lights on.)

If you don't have octave, you can take this matrix:

0,1,0,0,0,0
1/5,0,4/5,0,0,0
0,2/5,0,3/5,0,0
0,0,3/5,0,2/5,0
0,0,0,4/5,0,1/5
0,0,0,0,1,0

This is a stochastic matrix (each row sums to 1). You can then take a tool like http://www.quickmath.com/ to compute the tenth power and read off the probabilities of the top or bottom row, and all the probabilities will continue to sum to 1 in rows.
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (rpenner+Jul 13 2009, 07:27 AM)
What troubles me about your answers is that they have to be multiplied by 5^9 times 2^3 to be integers.

In relation to the manner in which I was calculating, 5^10 * the final value should equal an integer. Since:

(62.9533248 * 5^10) = 614778562.5

This indicates to me that your concerns are justified in terms of clerical accuracy. I am interested in both a ) determining the source of this error, and b ) yet presenting the basic logic of the calculations in order to ascertain if it was the logic itself, or the implementation of the logic that was flawed.

That my value coincides with yours to 99.88% accuracy, however, suggests to me, provisionally, that the error was in the pen and paper implementation (trivial IMHO), as opposed to the underlying logic (not trivial IMHO). Should the logic be in error, however, I do hope to learn, with your assistance, where it went awry.

Your value, by the way, 62.8779008, is far more likely correct, even by my logic, since 62.8779008 * 5^10 = an integer. By way of respect for mathematical "truth," and with public regard for your expertise, in fact, I will go one step further and state that I find it highly unlikely that your value is incorrect.

Thank you for immensely constructive response(s).

Best,
Raphie
MoonDragn
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 11 2009, 08:30 PM)
WRONG!!! laugh.gif
Do some research, the spherical nature of the earth was proven by experimentation over two thousand years ago.


So that real scientists can waste their time trying to develop new technologies using wrong theories? What a dumb suggestion...


Find me a single crank who limits himself to questioning anything about mainstream science and I'll find you a dog who speaks French, in Russian. Cranks don't question anything. They simply declare proven physics to be wrong, or unproven, non-rigorous and ill-informed 'physics' to be right.


The saddest thing is that you and other cranks will never really understand the meaning of that quote.


WRONG!!! laugh.gif
All it shows is that I believe someone to be ignorant. When I then follow up that accusation with evidence to prove them wrong, it shows I am correct.

QUOTE (meem+)
So, that is why when people disagree with my opinion, they don't need to provide reasons or hard science as to how or why they disagree, but I need to look it up?

That's right. When you put forth alternate hypotheses to explain already-understood events, the burden of proof is on you. Hell, even if you're putting forth a hypothesis to explain as yet unexplained events, the burden of proof is on you. Whomever makes the positive claim (X is true) has the burden of proof. Sometimes it can be proven than X is not true, but it is almost impossible to prove the vast majority of negative claims (X is not true), while it is generally relatively easy to prove most positive claims.

No *** sherlock... we're talking about ancient people here, over 2000 years ago dumbass.

Real scientists base their new theories based on existing theories, and I never said that shouldn't be the case, but sometimes you need to make a leap of faith because it could be possible there are some errors with the old theories. I never said to blatently disregard old theories. Those are cranks, do not associate them with me.

Again, you are assuming I'm a crank, comparing me to them, you have the burden to prove that I am a crank. Nothing I've said so far has been so far fetched.

Let's review what I have said so far. I stated that a singularity may not be possible because it may not be possible to reach infinite mass. Do you still consider something that reaches an enormous mass a singularity? If so, then the only difference is our definition of the object in question.

So far, all you've shown me is your vitro, and the fact that you proved yourself to be extremely ignorant as well as an ***.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
Let's review what I have said so far. I stated that a singularity may not be possible because it may not be possible to reach infinite mass


You really have a gift for jumping into things.

You might want to review the actual definition of a singularity.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Let's review what I have said so far. I stated that a singularity may not be possible because it may not be possible to reach infinite mass


You really have a gift for jumping into things.

You might want to review the actual definition of a singularity.

A gravitational singularity or spacetime singularity is a location where the quantities which are used to measure the gravitational field become infinite in a way that does not depend on the coordinate system. These quantities are the scalar invariant curvatures of spacetime, some of which are a measure of the density of matter.


That isn't to say that the mass is infinite. Just that it's so great that measurement breaks down.



QUOTE
So far, all you've shown me is your vitro



He showed you his glass?

How odd.

(Maybe you meant vitriol. I hope so anyway).

flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 11:02 AM)
Real scientists base their new theories based on existing theories, and I never said that shouldn't be the case, but sometimes you need to make a leap of faith because it could be possible there are some errors with the old theories. I never said to blatently disregard old theories. Those are cranks, do not associate them with me.

Numbers don't lie. As long as the numbers are consistent, the old theories will stay. I'm not sure which old theories you are referring to, but I'm pretty sure that F = M/A is fairly error-proof. I'm pretty sure that Newton's laws of thermodynamics are certain. You are making a vague baseless accusation against old theories just because they are old.

QUOTE
Again, you are assuming I'm a crank, comparing me to them, you have the burden to prove that I am a crank. Nothing I've said so far has been so far fetched.

Your ideas aren't so far-fetched as they are wrong.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Again, you are assuming I'm a crank, comparing me to them, you have the burden to prove that I am a crank. Nothing I've said so far has been so far fetched.

Your ideas aren't so far-fetched as they are wrong.

Let's review what I have said so far. I stated that a singularity may not be possible because it may not be possible to reach infinite mass. Do you still consider something that reaches an enormous mass a singularity? If so, then the only difference is our definition of the object in question.

I think you are mixing up the math for what a singularity is. A singularity is something with infinite density and infinitesimal volume. You are assuming that means infinite mass, which it doesn't. Remember when you divide by zero, the result is infinite? Density is mass/volume. If the volume is infinitesimal, then the mass doesn't matter, because the density approaches infinite as the volume approaches 0.

Hope that helps.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 11:02 AM)
No *** sherlock... we're talking about ancient people here, over 2000 years ago dumbass.

WRONG!!! laugh.gif
Read the posts you're responding to, next time.

QUOTE
Real scientists base their new theories based on existing theories,

Wrong!!! laugh.gif
Real scientists base their new theories on experimentation and observation.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Real scientists base their new theories based on existing theories,

Wrong!!! laugh.gif
Real scientists base their new theories on experimentation and observation.

and I never said that shouldn't be the case, but sometimes you need to make a leap of faith because it could be possible there are some errors with the old theories. I never said to blatently disregard old theories. Those are cranks, do not associate them with me.

It's not me associating you with them, it's your own posts.

QUOTE
Again, you are assuming I'm a crank, comparing me to them, you have the burden to prove that I am a crank. Nothing I've said so far has been so far fetched.

laugh.gif I'll let the record refute that one.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Again, you are assuming I'm a crank, comparing me to them, you have the burden to prove that I am a crank. Nothing I've said so far has been so far fetched.

laugh.gif I'll let the record refute that one.

Let's review what I have said so far. I stated that a singularity may not be possible because it may not be possible to reach infinite mass. Do you still consider something that reaches an enormous mass a singularity? If so, then the only difference is our definition of the object in question.

I have shown you that mathematical singularities most certainly exist. I have also provided you links to show that gravitational singularities have been observed to exist. You refute this only by conflating the two: The hallmark of a crank.

QUOTE
So far, all you've shown me is your vitro, and the fact that you proved yourself to be extremely ignorant as well as an ***.

laugh.gif If I'm ignorant, why is it that I have far fewer knowledgeable people correcting my claims than you?
MoonDragn
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 13 2009, 04:29 PM)
WRONG!!! laugh.gif
Read the posts you're responding to, next time.


Wrong!!! laugh.gif
Real scientists base their new theories on experimentation and observation.


It's not me associating you with them, it's your own posts.


laugh.gif I'll let the record refute that one.


I have shown you that mathematical singularities most certainly exist. I have also provided you links to show that gravitational singularities have been observed to exist. You refute this only by conflating the two: The hallmark of a crank.


laugh.gif If I'm ignorant, why is it that I have far fewer knowledgeable people correcting my claims than you?

Wrong! Real scientists review existing theories first and then come up with an hypothesist, THEN they prove their hypothesis by experimentation and observation.

We're not talking about mathematical singularities, I'm talking about reality. Is space infinite or is it finite? Does mass ever increase to infinity? is it possible?

Again, I'm not talking about a gravitational singularity, which is the definition of a blackhole. Thats not what I'm asking at all. So maybe its just a matter of language for you.
MoonDragn
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 13 2009, 04:14 PM)

You really have a gift for jumping into things.

You might want to review the actual definition of a singularity.



That isn't to say that the mass is infinite. Just that it's so great that measurement breaks down.






He showed you his glass?

How odd.

(Maybe you meant vitriol. I hope so anyway).

"A gravitational singularity or spacetime singularity is a location where the quantities which are used to measure the gravitational field become infinite in a way that does not depend on the coordinate system. These quantities are the scalar invariant curvatures of spacetime, some of which are a measure of the density of matter.

For the purposes of proving the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems, a spacetime with a singularity is defined to be one which contains geodesics which cannot be extended in a smooth manner. The end of such a geodesic is considered to be the singularity. This is a different definition, useful for proving theorems.
"

The first paragraph is what I'm talking about. What I'm trying to say is that a TRUE singularity may not ever exist, we define them as such, but there really is no way to truly measure the infinite.

"That isn't to say that the mass is infinite. Just that it's so great that measurement breaks down."

Thats exactly what I'm saying. It isn't infinite. I'm not talking about the DEFINITION of singularity, I'm talking about a true Singularity where all points collapse and mass become infinite. Another words. What I'm saying is that while infinity works great in math, it doesn't work so great in the real world.

This also relates to my question about space. Is space infinite or finite? If space is finite, then whats outside of space?
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 12:14 PM)
Wrong! Real scientists review existing theories first and then come up with an hypothesist, THEN they prove their hypothesis by experimentation and observation.


Keep telling yourself that... laugh.gif

By that standard, I can theorize that an alien on the planet melmac 3 is currently masturbating to to melmacian porn, and it's a scientific theory.
laugh.gif

QUOTE
We're not talking about mathematical singularities, I'm talking about reality. Is space infinite or is it finite? Does mass ever increase to infinity? is it possible?

Again, I'm not talking about a gravitational singularity, which is the definition of a blackhole. Thats not what I'm asking at all. So maybe its just a matter of language for you.

No, it's a matter of you not understanding the nature of methodological naturalism. If every measurement we make says "infinite", then scientifically speaking, the result is "infinite", even if the value being measured is not truly infinite.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 12:21 PM)
Thats exactly what I'm saying. It isn't infinite. I'm not talking about the DEFINITION of singularity, I'm talking about a true Singularity where all points collapse and mass become infinite. Another words. What I'm saying is that while infinity works great in math, it doesn't work so great in the real world.


What I'm saying is that your definition of singularity is WRONG. Density is infinite, not mass. Density = Mass/Volume. If the volume is infinitesimal, then the mass does not matter. As volume approaches 0, density approaches infinite. The problem is that we still have no idea what is going on behind the event horizon of a black hole. There could be a solid surface, or it could be a single point. The single point theory is a distinct possibility.

QUOTE
This also relates to my question about space. Is space infinite or finite? If space is finite, then whats outside of space?

We've been over this, it's finite.
I don't think that the word 'is' applies to your second question.
MoonDragn
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 13 2009, 05:31 PM)
Keep telling yourself that...  laugh.gif

By that standard, I can theorize that an alien on the planet melmac 3 is currently masturbating to to melmacian porn, and it's a scientific theory.
laugh.gif


No, it's a matter of you not understanding the nature of methodological naturalism. If every measurement we make says "infinite", then scientifically speaking, the result is "infinite", even if the value being measured is not truly infinite.

No you can HYPOTHESIZE on it, but until your experiments show otherwise, you're still crazy. I don't disagree with that.

What I have is the problem with the nature of methodological naturalism. I don't think it is possible for us to take an "infinite" measurement. All of our instruments are finite. Just like Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, I think there gets to a point where our very attempt to measure it, alters it.

But really, does infinity really exist? Or does everything end at some point?

QUOTE
What I'm saying is that your definition of singularity is WRONG. Density is infinite, not mass. Density = Mass/Volume. If the volume is infinitesimal, then the mass does not matter. As volume approaches 0, density approaches infinite. The problem is that we still have no idea what is going on behind the event horizon of a black hole. There could be a solid surface, or it could be a single point. The single point theory is a distinct possibility.


Well, how do you have 0 volume? I don't think you can. Even if there is a ton of space between each particle inside an atom, it is still taking up space on a subatomic level. At some point it will pack down to a finite volume. Lets assume mass does not change at that point, since we're defining a stable singularity that is not absorbing new mass, then Density cannot be infinite because at this point both mass and volume are constant.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 12:40 PM)
What I have is the problem with the nature of methodological naturalism. I don't think it is possible for us to take an "infinite" measurement. All of our instruments are finite. Just like Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, I think there gets to a point where our very attempt to measure it, alters it.

If you shoot a radar beam into space and record the amount of time it takes to return, then the measurement is demonstrably infinite, since you will die waiting for it to return.
MoonDragn
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 13 2009, 05:42 PM)
If you shoot a radar beam into space and record the amount of time it takes to return, then the measurement is demonstrably infinite, since you will die waiting for it to return.

Well, that question sort of relates to what I'm asking isn't it? We know that the only way for the radio wave to return is if it bounces off something and comes back. Lets assume it never hits anything. If space is finite, what happens at the edge of space? Does the radio signal bounce off the boundry of space? or by its very curvature, come back in the other direction?

flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 12:51 PM)
Well, that question sort of relates to what I'm asking isn't it? We know that the only way for the radio wave to return is if it bounces off something and comes back. Lets assume it never hits anything. If space is finite, what happens at the edge of space? Does the radio signal bounce off the boundry of space? or by its very curvature, come back in the other direction?

Space would be expanding at the speed of light. You could never catch up to it.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 12:40 PM)
No you can HYPOTHESIZE on it, but until your experiments show otherwise, you're still crazy. I don't disagree with that.

Ahh, so it's impossible for me to describe how and why this alien is jerkin his gherkin, or to produce a model of this event.... I see.

laugh.gif

So now instead of actually attempting to refute anything I said, you try to change the subject to avoid acknowledging that which would be counter to your initial claim... And you claim you're not a crank, tsk tsk tsk.

QUOTE
What I have is the problem with the nature of methodological naturalism. I don't think it is possible for us to take an "infinite" measurement.

Of course it isn't possible to measure infinity! Jesus Christ what a stupid response.

That very inability is central to the point I was making which apparently flew right over your head: If a certain value is even 0.000000000000000000001% more than we have the ability to measure it to, then it's functionally infinite, and that is part of the very nature of science!

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
What I have is the problem with the nature of methodological naturalism. I don't think it is possible for us to take an "infinite" measurement.

Of course it isn't possible to measure infinity! Jesus Christ what a stupid response.

That very inability is central to the point I was making which apparently flew right over your head: If a certain value is even 0.000000000000000000001% more than we have the ability to measure it to, then it's functionally infinite, and that is part of the very nature of science!

But really, does infinity really exist? Or does everything end at some point?

Yes, it does, and I've already shown it to you.

QUOTE
Well, how do you have 0 volume? I don't think you can.

Luckily for real scientists, the universe doesn't care what you think.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Well, how do you have 0 volume? I don't think you can.

Luckily for real scientists, the universe doesn't care what you think.

Space would be expanding at the speed of light. You could never catch up to it.

Depending on your frame of reference and the bit of space whose expansion away from your own you're referring to, it could be said to be expanding much much faster than c.
MoonDragn
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 13 2009, 06:05 PM)
Ahh, so it's impossible for me to describe how and why this alien is jerkin his gherkin, or to produce a model of this event.... I see.

laugh.gif

So now instead of actually attempting to refute anything I said, you try to change the subject to avoid acknowledging that which would be counter to your initial claim... And you claim you're not a crank, tsk tsk tsk.


Of course it isn't possible to measure infinity! Jesus Christ what a stupid response.

That very inability is central to the point I was making which apparently flew right over your head: If a certain value is even 0.000000000000000000001% more than we have the ability to measure it to, then it's functionally infinite, and that is part of the very nature of science!


Yes, it does, and I've already shown it to you.


Luckily for real scientists, the universe doesn't care what you think.

QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+)
Space would be expanding at the speed of light. You could never catch up to it.

Depending on your frame of reference and the bit of space whose expansion away from your own you're referring to, it could be said to be expanding much much faster than c.

Actually, what I have just shown is your own arguments right back at you. You constantly change the subject or use arguments that have no relation to the original argument in proving your point, which doesn't answer the original question at all.


We both agree it is impossible to measure infinity, this point obviously flew right over your head, that we both agreed on something. We also agree that we can only measure the finite. But still the main point escaped you again, if we can't really measure it, can we really define it?

Luckily for real scientists, the universe could care less who you think are cranks either. I think our discussions are done, I think it would be simpler for me just to put you on ignore. You're obviously just here to argue with people, not to learn anything at all.

MjolnirPants
QUOTE (MoonDragn+Jul 13 2009, 01:15 PM)
Actually, what I have just shown is your own arguments right back at you. You constantly change the subject or use arguments that have no relation to the original argument in proving your point, which doesn't answer the original question at all.

Well that's just total bullshit. You made a specific claim, I showed how this claim is absurd, you ineptly tried to argue with my use of the word "theory" by implying I should have used the word "hypothesis" in my response, I showed you how ridiculous that argument was, you claim I'm changing the subject.

You're not only blind to what we're both saying, you're hypocritically accusing me of the very thing you're doing.

QUOTE
We both agree it is impossible to measure infinity, this point obviously flew right over your head, that we both agreed on something.

Again, total bullshit. I made it clear that I understood exactly what you were saying, and went on to show how this thing that we both agree on disputes your original claim.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We both agree it is impossible to measure infinity, this point obviously flew right over your head, that we both agreed on something.

Again, total bullshit. I made it clear that I understood exactly what you were saying, and went on to show how this thing that we both agree on disputes your original claim.

We also agree that we can only measure the finite. But still the main point escaped you again, if we can't really measure it, can we really define it?

Yes.
Give me a definitive measure of love. I can give you a definition of it.

QUOTE
Luckily for real scientists, the universe could care less who you think are cranks either. I think our discussions are done, I think it would be simpler for me just to put you on ignore. You're obviously just here to argue with people, not to learn anything at all.

No, I'm not here to learn anything. I'm here for my own amusement, and anyone who comes to this forum specifically to learn something is looking in the entirely wrong place. Only when posters are held to rigorous standards of accuracy will this become a reasonable place to learn. The fact that you're ignorant enough of physics to pick up a few new things here is besides the point: There's as much -if not more- BS as facts on this forum, and if you walk away from this forum with a thousand new memes, at least 500 of them will be wrong.
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 13 2009, 09:18 AM)
In relation to the manner in which I was calculating, 5^10 * the final value should equal an integer. Since:

(62.9533248 * 5^10) = 614778562.5

This indicates to me that your concerns are justified in terms of clerical accuracy. I am interested in both a ) determining the source of this error, and b ) yet presenting the basic logic of the calculations in order to ascertain if it was the logic itself, or the implementation of the logic that was flawed.

That my value coincides with yours to 99.88% accuracy, however, suggests to me, provisionally, that the error was in the pen and paper implementation (trivial IMHO), as opposed to the underlying logic (not trivial IMHO). Should the logic be in error, however, I do hope to learn, with your assistance, where it went awry.

Dear RPenner,

I had a chance to revisit my numbers and, indeed, there was a "clerical" error at step 3. More later, but I will say that I need to run the figures again to 10 iterations to see if they accord with the value you posted. I also hope to gain a better understanding of why, after a rather egregious error early in the process, my final figure diverged from yours by a mere .12% (i.e. accident or simply the nature of random distributions). Because the immediate consequence of the error in the two subsequent "steps" is that the figures diverge from my initial calculations quite considerably.

I find this far more interesting than the calculations themselves which, frankly, as I noted previously, were not at all complicated, requiring only the application of basic logic and Probability 101.

Best,
Raphie
Euler
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 12 2009, 12:12 AM)
You termed Euler's arguments "convincing." and suggested the possibility of "elaborate lies" on my part.

We're all waiting over here.
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (rpenner+Jul 13 2009, 03:17 AM)
I calculate (using the method of stochastic matrices) that the chance that 3 lights are on, starting with 5 out of 5 lights on, and making 10 random toggles as
6140420/9765625 = 0.628779008 = 62.8779008
octave: ((diag([1:5],-1)+diag(1+5-[1:5],1))^10)(1+5-5,1+5-3)/5^10

But do you have a source for this problem, since it would be testing radically different skills if you are looking for an answer for 2 or 3 lights on.

Here are the recalculated percentages, RPenner (again performed longhand, but this time the checks were performed by calculator)

After ten steps, beginning with all wires connected or all lights on:

5 wires connected / lights on
6.4389632%

3 wires connected / lights on
62.8779008%

1 wire connected / light on
30.683136%

CHECKS
=================================
30.683136 + 62.8779008 + 6.4389632 = 100

6.4389632 * 5^10 = 62880500 (an integer)
62.8779008 * 5^10 = 614042000 (an integer)
30.683136 * 5^10 = 299640000 (an integer)

Add these values together, and naturally you get
62880500 + 614042000 + 299640000 = 976562500 = 5^10*100

... where 9765625 = 5^10 is the number of possible outcomes after 10 steps when randomly choosing on/off states for a group of 5 objects (beginning with Step 0).
=================================

Assuming these values to be correct, the point I wish to make once again is that, as valuable as they may and as much as they can certainly speed up the process, sophisticated mathematical techniques (e.g. stochastic matrices) are not always required in order to solve a problem. Basic logic and mathematical knowledge no more complex than the type which one might be expected to possess in order to do well on the General GRE's can quite suffice.

Best,
Raphie

P.S. I might add that one of the benefits of performing calculations longhand is that one is able to see how the numbers "shuffle around." One can also see patterns emerge. For instance, I would suggest that the following identity likely holds and can be mapped in one to one manner with entries in Pascal's Triangle, where P = Probability:

(C(n,k)*k!)/n^k = P

I have not checked this yet, however.

P.P.S. I would also be intrigued to see how close the central distribution comes over time to the following value: (sqrt(5) + 4), which is 99.97866% of 6.23739904, the arithmetic average of the 2 connected (61.87008%) and 3 connected states (62.8779008%), divided by 10, after, respectively, 9 and 10 steps. sqrt(5) + 4, as you may already be aware, is the limit at infinity of G_n/F_n where G_n is the Golden Scale Progression, and F_n the Fibonacci Progression.
Raphie Frank
*QUALITY*

Euler Posted: Yesterday at 2:09 PM
Negative Stupid beyond words.
Raphie Frank
Dear RPenner,

Another point. In reference to posts on other threads, given that I have been teaching myself (inclusive of developing my own notational methods), with at times much appreciated help from members of this forum (i.e. you, mr, homm), it would indeed be highly unlikely that I would do well on a subject specific Math test wherein one's command of mathematical technique is far more at issue than one's ability to apply mathematical logic to solve a problem.

Best,
Raphie
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 15 2009, 08:12 PM)
... it would indeed be highly unlikely that I would do well on a subject specific Math test wherein one's command of mathematical technique is far more at issue than one's ability to apply mathematical logic to solve a problem.

Best,
Raphie

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Anyone else notice what's so stupid about this?

False dichotomy, Raphie. You really stuck your foot in your mouth with this one.

It's like saying that there's a difference between one's ability to perform martial arts techniques and one's ability to use martial arts to resolve a violent conflict. You need to know and be able to use the techniques before you can apply them to a problem. If you lack command of mathematical techniques, you necessarily have little to no ability to apply them to a problem.
Raphie Frank
MP, I just applied basic logic to a mathematical problem here:

QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 16 2009, 12:01 AM)
Here are the recalculated percentages, RPenner (again performed longhand, but this time the checks were performed by calculator)

After ten steps, beginning with all wires connected or all lights on:

5 wires connected / lights on
6.4389632%

3 wires connected / lights on
62.8779008%

1 wire connected / light on
30.683136%

CHECKS
=================================
30.683136 + 62.8779008 + 6.4389632 = 100

6.4389632 * 5^10 = 62880500 (an integer)
62.8779008 * 5^10 = 614042000 (an integer)
30.683136 * 5^10 = 299640000 (an integer)

Add these values together, and naturally you get
62880500 + 614042000 + 299640000 = 976562500 = 5^10*100

... where 9765625 = 5^10 is the number of possible outcomes after 10 steps when randomly choosing on/off states for a group of 5 objects (beginning with Step 0).
=================================

And I could give you every single value for every step in between, which is not brain surgery. Yet, ask 100 random people on the street how to calculate those values, MP, and see how many will be able to. If you assume that not too many could, then ask yourself furthermore if you believe this is a good thing.

I, for one, believe we need to make our maths more accessible by not pretending that one can only figure out a problem if they know, for instance, how to work with stochastic matrices (which, incidentally, RPenner did not in any way imply).

We scare people off, MP. I cannot tell you how many people I have spoken to who say that "numbers scare" them.

Is it the numbers or the way we are teaching people that scares them?

Best,
Raphie
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 15 2009, 11:11 PM)
MP, I just applied basic logic to a mathematical problem here:


And I could give you every single value for every step in between, which is not brain surgery. Yet, ask 100 random people on the street how to calculate those values, MP, and see how many will be able to. If you assume that not too many could, then ask yourself furthermore if you believe this is a good thing.

I, for one, believe we need to make our maths more accessible by not pretending that one can only figure out a problem if they know, for instance, how to work with stochastic matrices (which, incidentally, RPenner did not in any way imply).

We scare people off, MP. I cannot tell you how many people I have spoken to who say that "numbers scare" them.

Is it the numbers or the way we are teaching people that scares them?

Best,
Raphie

Raphie, that doesn't change the false dichotomy of the quoted post.

To revert to my analogy, all it does is prove you have a yellow belt. It doesn't make you a master or even an accomplished martial artist.
rpenner
I still would like a detailed explanation of the origin of this problem.
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (rpenner+Jul 16 2009, 06:19 AM)
I still would like a detailed explanation of the origin of this problem.

The origin of this problem, RPenner was exactly what I previously posted. How many ways can I connect and disconnect 5-wires (Safely) and then reconnect them (also Safely)? And what is the probability that I could accomplish this randomly? The answer to the latter question, when dealing with a system wherein 3 wires must be disconnected in any order (3 hots), followed by 2 wires in any order (neutral/ground), followed by a process of reconnection in mirrored manner, is:

((3!*2!)/5^5)^2 = 1.47456 × 10^-5

The final state, from the perspective of the observer would be the same as the original state, meaning, in essence, the "do nothing" state. All wires started connected and all wires remain connected after 10 steps, after passing through an intermediary step of all wires being disconnected (after 5 steps).

Because I wanted a basis of comparison, it became clear to me that I would need to calculate the chance that the "do nothing" state might randomly occur. Unfortunately, since I am not versed in "stochastic matrices," or other techniques that might avail me readily of the answer, I had to apply logic and figure it out for myself.

In other words, the "source" of the question, is not to be found in a book, but rather simply in one individual asking a question and then desiring to answer it.

Did this individual, after an intermediary "clerical error," and with the assistance of an expert moderator ultimately answer the question correctly or incorrectly?

Upon request, I can provide not only all (hopefully) correct values, but also all the incorrect ones from the first go-around.

In the meantime, I beg your pardon for not yet providing the basic logic behind the calculations. I deem such logic obvious and rather trivial, truth be told, but would need to take proper time to present in clear manner to others. Since I must be up for work in a few hours, now is not the time...

Best,
Raphie
Euler
What's this? Raphie Frank squirms yet again? This becoming far too predictable.
Raphie Frank
My response to you , Euler, is simply:

QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jul 17 2009, 06:56 AM)
You are beginning to evidence many of the makings of a Sociopath, Euler.

Best,
Raphie

P.S. Please do stop being a (opinion, only) coward and publicly reveal your identity as did your good friend George, whom I actually quite respect for standing behind his judgements, for good or for bad, publicly. Best, RF


I ask you, yet again, and again as politely as possible under the circumstances, to please cease and desist from engaging in stalking behaviors. - RF
Euler
And again the squirm! It's interesting to see the lengths you'll go to avoid answering these questions. The stupid+dishonest combo is truely a fun one to watch.
RobDegraves
Euler

I don't really see the point in continuing with this line of inquiry. It's old, it's dull and even Raphie has more or less acknowledged his various faults.

Let's see what he brings up next time and go from there shall we.
Edward 3
Euler likes to turn the screw - not a very endearing characteristic !
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 02:34 PM)
Euler

I don't really see the point in continuing with this line of inquiry. It's old, it's dull and even Raphie has more or less acknowledged his various faults.

Let's see what he brings up next time and go from there shall we.

No, he has not acknowledged his dishonesty. This is precisely why he refuses to answer the questions. This is after 10+ requests to respond to some very simple questions.

If you find it old and dull, don't read it. Life really is that simple sometimes.
RobDegraves
OK... let's do a test.

JUST DONT READ THIS!

Darn.. you read it didn't you?

QUOTE
If you find it old and dull, don't read it. Life really is that simple sometimes.


Sadly nothing is simple.. now is it?
Euler
Don't be quite so pathetic. If you begin to read a post which pertains to Raphie Frank's dishonesty, stop reading. If your concerns run deeper, put me on ignore.
RobDegraves
Sheesh... you are having a hard time finding that sense of humor aren't you.

Relax...

It's not like he ate one of your puppies... uh.. he didn't did he?

Because.. I would have to be really perturbed by that.

Seriously... that's just sick.
Edward 3
QUOTE (Euler+Jul 17 2009, 05:56 PM)
No, he has not acknowledged his dishonesty. This is precisely why he refuses to answer the questions. This is after 10+ requests to respond to some very simple questions.

If you find it old and dull, don't read it. Life really is that simple sometimes.

How important that one should prostrate oneself and purge the heresy - what you´re after here Euler is humiliation. And that just confirms you as an insufferable a$$hole. Tell him to fkuc off , Raphie !!
flyingbuttressman
Wow, this thread just won't die. I can't find rhyme or reason to whatever Ralphie Frank is posting.
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 06:46 PM)
Sheesh... you are having a hard time finding that sense of humor aren't you.

Ahhh - this was your attempt at humour? You're a funny guy.
QUOTE (Edward 3+Jul 17 2009, 06:50 PM)
How important that one should prostrate oneself and purge the heresy - what you´re after here Euler is humiliation. And that just confirms you as an insufferable a$$hole. Tell him to fkuc off , Raphie !!

Wow, that was deep.

Perhaps it's difficult for many of you to understand, because you don't understand the mathematics at hand (I'm aware that Edward3 doesn't, but I'm not familiar with RobDegraves). What Raphie Frank has done is lie, not just a little, but a lot by making out he knows much, much more than he does. He's refusing to acknowledge the points I'm making because he's (a) dishonest and not too bright, and (b) aware that they expose his dishonesty.
RobDegraves
OK... obviously humor is not finding you right now. A bit sour don't you think. I thought it was funny... but well... humor and the eye of the beholder and all that. De gustibus non est disputandum.

Here is my point... more succinctly and with less humor.

Look at Rpenner.

Raphie posted something... Rpenner showed him exactly where his math was wrong.

That is all that is needed for most of us.

Do you really expect Raphie to come and apologize? I don't think that's quite likely. Most of us can read what is said and make our inferences from there. Have you seen me yet allow a crank to walk away unscathed? I have much stronger reasons to hate cranks than most.

I once stated quite clearly that you have a valid point.

Anything beyond that seems more like a personal thing than a debate.

If Raphie makes more mistakes... or lies... I am sure that you.. and I... and Rpenner... etc... will be more than capable of pointing it out. Deal?
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 07:11 PM)
If Raphie makes more mistakes... or lies... I am sure that you.. and I... and Rpenner... etc... will be more than capable of pointing it out. Deal?

When I feel I need to ask you to do something for me, I'll tell you. Your ability to spot the level of his dishonesty is directly proportional to how much you know about the mathematics he attempts to talk about (in this instance, Lie Groups, Galois Theory and Representation theory).

I'm not about to comment on your capability to spot mathematical fibs - I'm not familiar with your posts.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
When I feel I need to ask you to do something for me, I'll tell you


*backs away from the room slowly and closes the door*

Have fun then. I would not want to interrupt angry time.

I'm doing my phd in history btw.

That is the extent of my mathematical knowledge. biggrin.gif

Edited to add...

Oh... feel free to test me.. *jumps up and down* This forum doesn't get enough history discussions.
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 07:24 PM)
I'm doing my phd in history btw.

That is the extent of my mathematical knowledge.

Then your ability to spot when someone is talking mathematical rubbish is non-existent. Well done.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
Then your ability to spot when someone is talking mathematical rubbish is non-existent


Pretty well yes.

I can do logic. I can do some science (physics is a bit of a hobby for me). I have even made an effort to learn as much math as I have time for. However my abilities in that realm are quite limited.

Are you done being unpleasant btw?

I fail to see what I have done to warrant your ire... you just seem ticked off in general.
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 07:35 PM)
Pretty well yes.

Then, as suspected, you have no idea as to the level of Raphie Frank's continual "mathematical fibs".

QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 07:35 PM)
I fail to see what I have done to warrant your ire... you just seem ticked off in general.

Your performance in the last few posts has not endeared me to you. Learn to deal with it.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
Your performance in the last few posts has not endeared me to you.


Then I take it that disagreeing with you in any way makes you angry.

Do you think that is a rational attitude?
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 07:48 PM)
Then I take it that disagreeing with you in any way makes you angry.

Do you think that is a rational attitude?

Why do you feel such a need to be liked?

If I thought your opinion was an informed one, I'd have been more open to discussion. However, as we've been witness to, you are posting from a position of ignorance - I'm not a fan of people who put themselve in such stupid situations.



RobDegraves
QUOTE
However, as we've been witness to, you are posting from a position of ignorance - I'm not a fan of people who put themselve in such stupid situations


That is incorrect

I have not disputed your stand on Raphie's theories nor his math. If I had... that would be posting from ignorance but that is not what I have done.

My post was on your persistence on a single point that most, including myself, have long ago agreed you were correct on. Despite this you continue to insist on something that is not likely to be forthcoming.

How am I incorrect or ignorant in this case?
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 08:01 PM)
My post was on your persistence on a single point that most, including myself, have long ago agreed you were correct on.  Despite this you continue to insist on something that is not likely to be forthcoming.

How am I incorrect or ignorant in this case?

You are completely ignorant of the mathematics upon which the dispute is based. As such, you are completely unable to judge the level of Raphie Frank's dishonesty. In fact, do you even know what the discussion is about? See here. He's been asked to provide three words - no mention of apologies.

As I've told you, if you don't like to read such exchanges, don't follow them. If this becomes too taxing for you, put me on your ignore list.
RobDegraves
lol... you actually gave me a negative and called me a prat.

I have to say that it seems to me that you are not arguing because of Raphie's posts but because you are a generally unpleasant person.

It not only weakens what you have to say but ensures future enmity. Consider the fact that I would bet that many of the more reasonable posters here will see this as what it is... someone just attacking anyone who disagrees with him.

Personal attacks only show the weakness of your position. No need for math to understand that.

QUOTE
You are completely ignorant of the mathematics upon which the dispute is based. As such, you are completely unable to judge the level of Raphie Frank's dishonesty.


Again... so you can understand it.

I do not dispute that....nor have I ever.

Are you not getting that?

This fight is personal to you. Every insult you hurl... every disdain you show.... shows Raphie in a better light than you.

It's a shame because until now you had fairly interesting posts.
Euler
You find me unpleasant? Woe is me...

RobDegraves
It's not whether you are unpleasant or not that is the crux of the matter.

It's whether or not your attack on Raphie, and now myself, is about math or just you being unpleasant.

Let's look at the evidence so far.

Now.. I admit that my math skills are far below yours. No problem there.

However, would you say that Rpenner's math skills are deficient?

Would you say that AlphaNumeric's math skills are deficient?

I would say not likely.

Still, you don't see either of them constantly going on about the same point in Raphie's posts do you? Is it because they don't realize the enormity of Raphie's transgressions?

Or maybe it's because they realize that once a point has been made you can move on.

Which is more likely would you say?



Oh.. and your opinion of me is irrelevant. I just found it funny that you went to the extent of name calling to make a point about math.

biggrin.gif

Raphie Frank
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 07:11 PM)
Raphie posted something... Rpenner showed him exactly where his math was wrong.

That is all that is needed for most of us.

RPenner did indeed do this.

But the underlying logic was NOT wrong, a statement I will make with 99.999996% (self-estimated) confidence. This is the difference between "clerical error" and "logical error." "Clerical error" is an error of implementation that can be programmed "out of existence" via computerized routine. "Logical error," on the other hand, will pretty much always result in an incorrect result, except via random chance...

When you state "That is all that is needed for most of us," I urge you to consider whether you refer to my logic, in this instance, or to my ability to complete over 200 longhand calculations without error.

Feel free to clarify. And furthermore, feel free to state that you do not have enough information as of yet to properly ascertain....

Best,
Raphie

P.S. By the way, Rob... Thank you.
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 17 2009, 10:50 PM)
Now.. I admit that my math skills are far below yours. No problem there.

However, would you say that Rpenner's math skills are deficient?

Would you say that AlphaNumeric's math skills are deficient?

I would say not likely.

Still, you don't see either of them constantly going on about the same point in Raphie's posts do you? Is it because they don't realize the enormity of Raphie's transgressions?

You are being utterly ridiculous. Your underlying gripe seems to be that I am not dropping an issue, where you would presume you would drop the issue. That's fine - people are different. AlphaNumeric and rpenner choose to post in many threads in which I do not. This doesn't seem to bother you.

My issue with Raphie Frank is that he is dishonest - I don't like liars. By your own admission, you are completely unable to recognise this dishonesty, or its extent, because you have no mathematical knowledge.

However, this is all entirely inconsequential. You don't like reading posts on this matter - does this bother anyone? No. So you'll just have to learn to pull up your socks and deal with it.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
You are being utterly ridiculous. Your underlying gripe seems to be that I am not dropping an issue, where you would presume you would drop the issue. That's fine - people are different. AlphaNumeric and rpenner choose to post in many threads in which I do not


First of all, I don't have an underlying gripe. I made one off hand remark, suggesting that the matter was generally settled, and you blew up at me. Dozens of posts later, including insults being thrown at me, you are still mad at me for simply making a polite suggestion.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You are being utterly ridiculous. Your underlying gripe seems to be that I am not dropping an issue, where you would presume you would drop the issue. That's fine - people are different. AlphaNumeric and rpenner choose to post in many threads in which I do not


First of all, I don't have an underlying gripe. I made one off hand remark, suggesting that the matter was generally settled, and you blew up at me. Dozens of posts later, including insults being thrown at me, you are still mad at me for simply making a polite suggestion.

My issue with Raphie Frank is that he is dishonest - I don't like liars


You don't much like it when people are being honest either apparently. Not only have I not lied to you but I have been polite and direct. You have been nothing but unpleasant in return.

QUOTE
By your own admission, you are completely unable to recognise this dishonesty, or its extent, because you have no mathematical knowledge.


Unless I miss my guess... I should go back to look... but I was either the first, or right after you... to question Raphie's academic claims. In fact I went to the bother of looking the details up if you remember.

I don't like falsehood either... from anyone.... including you. I would bring Rpenner to task if I found his statements incorrect and I have the greatest respect for him. Same goes for Alpha or Mjolnir, etc. All of which I respect, none of which I would spare if they were wrong.

I expect the same from them.


Which brings me to the last bit.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
By your own admission, you are completely unable to recognise this dishonesty, or its extent, because you have no mathematical knowledge.


Unless I miss my guess... I should go back to look... but I was either the first, or right after you... to question Raphie's academic claims. In fact I went to the bother of looking the details up if you remember.

I don't like falsehood either... from anyone.... including you. I would bring Rpenner to task if I found his statements incorrect and I have the greatest respect for him. Same goes for Alpha or Mjolnir, etc. All of which I respect, none of which I would spare if they were wrong.

I expect the same from them.


Which brings me to the last bit.


However, this is all entirely inconsequential. You don't like reading posts on this matter - does this bother anyone? No. So you'll just have to learn to pull up your socks and deal with it.


Wouldn't this logic apply to you and Raphie? If you don't like his posts don't bother reading them... just learn to deal with it?


NO

I will speak my mind honestly and rationally. What is wrong with that?

Euler
And once again, you harp on, making no other point than "if I understood the point at hand, I guess my actions would be different to yours...". No one cares - least of all me.

You have made it known that you don't think this is an argument worth pursuing (whilst, amusingly, attempting to involve yourself in the same argument, here). The forum has noted your concerns, and life seems to me moving on.

If you find my posts upsetting, then I implore you, add me to your ignore list.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
And once again, you harp on, making no other point than "if I understood the point at hand, I guess my actions would be different to yours...". No one cares - least of all me.


Then why should Raphie care about your actions?

The only reason rational people come here is to discuss things rationally. Do you really feel you are doing that?

Abusing people who are simply advancing an argument that is contrary to yours is not rational nor intelligent.

If my argument was wrong... I would naturally expect you to explain why it is wrong and we would both move on. That is not what you do is it?

Oh.. and no.. I won't stop speaking my mind openly and frankly.

I won't allow falsehood to prosper.

And I won't stoop to base insults just because someone has a different opinion than me.

On the other thread, I am responding to more of what I consider false statements.

I think this is pretty typical of my posting style so far.
Euler
What is your end game here? For the last few posts you've meandered from one irrelevant point to another. From what we've all gathered:

You don't feel the argument I'm having with Raphie Frank (which is based on material you openly admit you don't understand) is worthwhile. This has been noted.

Now what? I'm getting bored.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
What is your end game here?


OK.. you are bored.. me too.

Let's just have you answer these questions and I will be done.

1. Do you feel it is justified to insult and attack someone simply for having a difference of opinion or should you first try to discuss the matter?

2. Have you even tried to discuss the matter or did you become unpleasant right off the bat. Do you feel that was justified?

3. Do you think Raphie will ever answer your questions and would a simple apology be sufficient for you?

I don't have any actual emotion vested into this.. however...

Just as you do not like liars (neither do I btw), I do not take base language and personal attacks kindly when I am simply trying to discuss a problem rationally.
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 18 2009, 11:20 PM)
1.  Do you feel it is justified to insult and attack someone simply for having a difference of opinion or should you first try to discuss the matter?

Of course not. In this case, you have commented on the worth of an argument from a position of ignorance. You, by your own admission, do not understand the basis of the argument, yet felt the need to comment. Hence, your posts have not endeared me to you. Deal with it.

QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 18 2009, 11:20 PM)
2.  Have you even tried to discuss the matter or did you become unpleasant right off the bat.  Do you feel that was justified?

See point 1.

QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 18 2009, 11:20 PM)
3.  Do you think Raphie will ever answer your questions and would a simple apology be sufficient for you?

Yes. No one is asking for an apology - I'm disappointed you're not aware of the argument. Raphie Frank has been asked to respond to three questions - his continuing refusal to do so is a consequence of the fact they expose his dishonesty.

Come back to us when you understand the basis of the argument at hand. I hope this helped.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
Come back to us when you understand the basis of the argument at hand.


I do understand the basis of the argument. It's pretty simple even without understanding the math. Let's see if I have this straight....

1. Raphie made a number of claims to mathematical knowledge that were false.

2. You caught him on it.

3. He refuses to admit to it.

Am I right so far?


OK.. however you also refuse to admit to your own wrongdoings.. at least from my point of view... just as Raphie refuses to admit to his wrongdoings from your point of view.

1. Not being endeared to someone does not justify personal attacks.

2. Just because you feel that someone does not understand an argument is also no basis for personal attacks.


I consider those wrongdoings easily equal to the ones that Raphie has perpetrated in your eyes.

Note that I am not in any way saying that Raphie is in the right in your dispute with him. What I am saying is that your righteous indignation might take a moment to look at your own behavior.

Don't you think?

boit
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 18 2009, 03:13 PM)

First of all, I don't have an underlying gripe.  I made one off hand remark, suggesting that the matter was generally settled, and you blew up at me.

One attribute of a crank is that they never give up on their argument despite tons of evidence presented to the contrary. A fanatic, as Churchill described, never want to change their mind nor the subject. It amazes me how great minds want to sink to the level of the cranks. Are cranks that infectious or do we all have this crank's bug of never giving up on an argument? The matter was truly generally settled as pointed above by the respected (advanced) member. I may just repeat what I suggested earlier that a subsection in crack pottery should be availed even if it means we raise the funds to develop one. Let's move on please.
Euler
Unsurprisingly your, and contrary to your "and I'll be done comment", you continue on with this drivel...
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 19 2009, 12:11 AM)
Don't you think?

Clearly I do not. Your attempt to reduce this to "you think he's a liar, he wont admit it" is utterly ridiculous. As with any such argument, it is the nature and the extent of the lie which is the underlying factor. This is something, by your own admission, you are completely unable to gauge.

And again, I urge you to add me to your ignore list if my posts are causing you concern.
RobDegraves
Euler

I guess what bothers me is that you don't seem to be able to see, or are unwilling to admit that you have done something wrong as well. To me that puts you in the same category as you place Raphie.

As you wish I will drop it now. I just wish your self awareness was the match to your mathematical ability.
Euler
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 19 2009, 03:47 PM)
I guess what bothers me is that you don't seem to be able to see, or are unwilling to admit that you have done something wrong as well.  To me that puts you in the same category as you place Raphie.

So you don't like the fact I'm continuing to pursue an argument, the basis of which you don't understand. That's fine - you've told everyone and it's been noted.

And yet you persist...
IAMoraes
QUOTE (Euler+Jul 18 2009, 07:42 PM)
Of course not. In this case, you have commented on the worth of an argument from a position of ignorance. You, by your own admission, do not understand the basis of the argument, yet felt the need to comment. Hence, your posts have not endeared me to you. Deal with it.

Wow! "Call Nature", would you?
AlexG
QUOTE
How Do You Discourage A Crank?


You can't.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (AlexG+Jul 21 2009, 01:35 PM)

You can't.

I dunno about that... In real life, I've noticed that plenty of mockery coupled with a serious debunking tends to work wonders. I'm sure it doesn't stop them from coming up with bizarre 'theories', but it sure stops them from trying to pawn them off on the rest of us.

Oh yes, and threats of violence tend to get the job done, too. Such a shame that doesn't work on the internet...
bukh
MP


QUOTE
I dunno about that... In real life, I've noticed that plenty of mockery coupled with a serious debunking tends to work wonders. I'm sure it doesn't stop them from coming up with bizarre 'theories', but it sure stops them from trying to pawn them off on the rest of us.

Oh yes, and threats of violence tend to get the job done, too. Such a shame that doesn't work on the internet...


In a sense I find MP a bit cute in all his spouting - and I know that it is not meant dead serious - but sometimes I find it a bit overdone and pathetic. The real problem for all you main-streamers is not so much that you feel that you have to combat cranks (for reasons that is not obvious to me) no, - the real problem starts the day that all the cranks may have been combated - I bet that you main-streamers will miss the cranks if that should happen.

And BTW, Mother Nature do not necessarily obey all what You / we like to see as being the "truth" - reality is a fragile something. One day after tomorrow even Your truth may look a bit naive -

MjolnirPants
QUOTE (bukh+Jul 21 2009, 03:31 PM)
In a sense I find MP a bit cute in all his spouting - and I know that it is not meant dead serious - but sometimes I find it a bit overdone and pathetic. The real problem for all you main-streamers is not so much that you feel that you have to combat cranks (for reasons that is not obvious to me) no, - the real problem starts the day that all the cranks may have been combated - I bet that you main-streamers will miss the cranks if that should happen.


I assure you, Bukh, that I find those desperate bids for attention you so often engage in by espousing your 'theories' online no less pathetic.

When people sit around and think up physical axioms the way many people do, that's nothing but an exercise in imagination: There's nothing wrong or telling about it (except that it demonstrates some level of imagination). But when people join internet forums and announce their 'theories', or publish pop-science books on them, that demonstrates a bid for attention.

Next, you have the inevitable backlash from people such as myself, Euler, Trout, RobDegraves, AlexG, rpenner, prometheus, bm1957, AlphaNumeric and others. Some people say "Ok, so it was a stupid idea to begin with LOL." and that shows that the attention they seek is satisfied by their ability to converse with people who know more than they. I've seen several people react this way on this forum, and most of them become quite reputable members.
Unfortunately for yourself and others like you, you do not fall into this category. When you are told that your theories are bunk by those who know better, yet continue to insist upon your own validity to science, this demonstrates that the attention you seek is not satisfied by conversation and dialogue. It requires acclaim and praise, and only those who heap these things upon you ever find themselves on your good side.

There is only one type of person who seeks such attention according to every model of psychiatry out there: Those who lack confidence in themselves. You cannot simply feel good about yourself for imaging up a new analogy for physics, your 'theories' must be true, and others must acknowledge your greatness. Whether you were abused as a child, lacked a strong male role model or maybe just weren't good at anything is anyone's guess. I'm no psychiatrist, so I can't look through the posts of any particular crank and make a determination about what their particular pathology might be. But I am a very very well educated autodidact. I know enough psychology to understand that attention seeking behavior is highly indicative of an innate lack of confidence.

Now, many people here like to focus on how others behave, especially (though not exclusively) the cranks. These people have a point: People who are nasty to you have no call to complain when you're nasty right back. And to be sure, quite a bit of the nastiness that exists here is reactionary: Crankbuster A calls Crank B a dumbass, so Crank B calls Crankbuster A a parrot and sockpuppet. But in this case, I don't call you names. I've thus far treated you with respect, and even defended you on several occasions. Yet in the above quoted section, you call me "cute" in a derogatory manner, and then go on to call me "pathetic".

This does nothing at all except evince that your presence here and your discussion of what you cranks like to term "non-mainstream science" falls firmly in the category of pathological attention seeking behavior.

So you go ahead and call me names to your heart's content, even though I've yet to sit around and call you any names. All you're doing is proving how pathetic you yourself are.

QUOTE
And BTW, Mother Nature do not necessarily obey all what You / we like to see as being the "truth" - reality is a fragile something. One day after tomorrow even Your truth may look a bit naive -

Until you find me a single, verifiable example of the universe behaving in a way that is not acknowledged by mainstream science, this means exactly squat.

P.S. I hate to break it to you, but you'll never get those accolades you desire. An ability to do physics is a requisite for anyone doing physics, and there are enough physicists and intelligent amateurs out there to ensure that those who aren't doing physics but claim to be will never be seen as doing it.
buttershug
QUOTE (bukh+Jul 21 2009, 08:31 PM)
And BTW, Mother Nature do not necessarily obey all what You / we like to see as being the "truth" - reality is a fragile something. One day after tomorrow even Your truth may look a bit naive -

You have it backwards. What we consider truth is what Mother Nature says.
bukh
MP

Yeah - You are right - we are all to a certain extent seeking for attention - and the mere participation in a Forum like this is a proof by itself. And I think You are right saying that most people lack confidence in themselves and show this lack of confidence in a variety of behaviors. I do not share your opinion however, that it takes childhood sexual abuse - lack of father figure or equivalents to nourish insecurity - I think it is an essential part of life - that it is a unavoidable part of being born to die.

I should not have been saying "cute" - that was not nice - and my apology - but I think it is fair if we together share "pathetic".

You say that I'll never get those accolades I desire - and again I think You are right - this is a common fate for (nearly) all humans.

I will most likely not find you a single, verifiable example of the universe behaving in a way that is not acknowledged by mainstream science - but I feel rather confident that it is only a matter of time and gaining deeper insights before such examples appear. Probably they already exist but have not as yet penetrated main-stream or majority thinking. And such paradigm shifts are normally not very obvious because they tend to grow over a period, and sooner or later there are more people on the new side of thinking.

buttershug

what we consider to be the truth is not what Mother Nature says - but how we interpret - and You know that communicating is very fragile - irrespective of which kind of language or tool we use.



Meem
QUOTE
So you go ahead and call me names to your heart's content, even though I've yet to sit around and call you any names. All you're doing is proving how pathetic you yourself are.


I almost fell out of my chair laughing when the plume of steam came rolling through my computer screen ... from that self image serving bull-dung. Great men claim how great they are is by admitting to how pathetic they are, by loving to argue with dumb-asses, insult them, sucker punch them, lie to the girlfriends about "the target" being with hookers. Indicating, hey friendly fire accidents, aren't accidents. Yeah, that's what great men, good guys do.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

There's a difference in knowing you're onto a logical line of thought, even if you don't have all the answers ... and not understanding the difference between what you act like you are/claim to be, and then do. If you're so concerned about truth, start with yourself first.
martillo
Thread title: "How to discourage a crank?"

I think the right question would be: "Why to waste our time over a "crank"?"

From other thread in this same forum:
QUOTE

QUOTE 
Cranks are just a hobby. 


Your hobby...
That's what I'm saying someway.
You are not worried about the Physics problems. You just worry about one disagreeing with current mainstream theories (by definition a "crank").
In other words, in the age of Galileo you would be one in favour to killing him isn't it?
Don't forget that all the main personalities of Science were "cranks" in their own age or at least they passed some time in that stage. Actually any scientist presenting anything really new pass someway this stage...

If a "crank" is really wrong why to waste time on him? Wouldn't it be better to just ignore him? And if he were right, why to bother him?
I don't understand why people like you waste his time with "cranks".

So your "free time job" is so stupid!...


Very appropiated for this thread...
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (martillo+Jul 22 2009, 06:06 AM)
Thread title: "How to discourage a crank?"

I think the right question would be: "Why to waste our time over a "crank"?"

From other thread in this same forum:

Very appropiated for this thread...

You cranks would completely take over if it wasn't for us. There would be no thread reserved for intelligent discussion because idiots like you would just jump on and spout another round of nonsense.

Additionally, stupidity should be called out wherever it lurks.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 22 2009, 07:15 AM)

I almost fell out of my chair laughing when the plume of steam came rolling through my computer screen ... from that self image serving bull-dung. Great men claim how great they are is by admitting to how pathetic they are, by loving to argue with dumb-asses, insult them, sucker punch them, lie to the girlfriends about "the target" being with hookers. Indicating, hey friendly fire accidents, aren't accidents. Yeah, that's what great men, good guys do.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

There's a difference in knowing you're onto a logical line of thought, even if you don't have all the answers ... and not understanding the difference between what you act like you are/claim to be, and then do. If you're so concerned about truth, start with yourself first.

So says meem the liar, who has already earned 3 warnings for his offensive behavior. Way to be great, meem.
Meem
I'm not worried about what you think great is, like posting under different screen names saying the same things you always do. If you think I am un-great, I must be on the right track.
occidental
Again, I have no need to hide behind another screen name to call you out as a liar and a hypocrite. And for the record, you are a liar and a hypocrite.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 22 2009, 08:46 AM)
I'm not worried about what you think great is, like posting under different screen names saying the same things you always do. If you think I am un-great, I must be on the right track.

Who are you accusing of sock-puppeting? You keep making these vague accusations, and it sounds a lot like whining. Are you a whiner?
Meem
If it sounds like a duck, it must be a duck? Cats whine, dogs bark? I am being to nonsensical again. I should stop. I am not limited to thinking that only the "cranks" are limited to sock puppetry. I think it is a two-way tactic implemented by self and group appointed "crank-busters" as well. A taste of your own medicine type of approach I suppose you could say. There seem to be several candidates for this. Since I am not a computer genius or in a position to know for certain, I can only make vague guesses. I am pretty certain it is done, and I think there are a few prime possibilities.

Group Think, at it's finest.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 22 2009, 12:24 PM)
If it sounds like a duck, it must be a duck? Cats whine, dogs bark? I am being to nonsensical again. I should stop. I am not limited to thinking that only the "cranks" are limited to sock puppetry. I think it is a two-way tactic implemented by self and group appointed "crank-busters" as well.

So, you think that someone is sock-puppeting, but you can't be sure, so you are accusing everyone of sock-puppetry? How cowardly of you.

QUOTE
There seem to be several candidates for this. Since I am not a computer genius or in a  position to know for certain, I can only make vague guesses.  I am pretty certain it is done, and I think there are a few prime possibilities.

Like who?
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (bukh+Jul 22 2009, 02:00 AM)
I will most likely not find you a single, verifiable example of the universe behaving in a way that is not acknowledged by mainstream science - but I feel rather confident that it is only a matter of time and gaining deeper insights before such examples appear. Probably they already exist but have not as yet penetrated main-stream or majority thinking.

This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about methodological naturalism.
By it's very nature, science does not deny any natural phenomenon. Anyone who does is not being scientific.


As for meem,
Which one of us has three warnings and less than 800 posts? Which one of us posts an average of 15.6 posts per day? You spend way too much time on this forum trying to prove yourself, and the funniest part is that you're utterly failing. wink.gif

You're the prime example of the insecure little crank, REMF.
martillo
QUOTE
You cranks would completely take over if it wasn't for us. There would be no thread reserved for intelligent discussion because idiots like you would just jump on and spout another round of nonsense.

Additionally, stupidity should be called out wherever it lurks.

"Nonsense", "stupidity" look familiar for me and have been demonstrated very wrongly un unfairly many times in history. So actually is subjective and people with "common sense" take more care about.
For example, you don't have a scientific proof that what I'm saying is wrong. Have you even tried yourself? Of course not. It just "sounds" that way for you and as you are so instinctive as animals you instinctiveliy reacts trying to "call out" what you don't like to hear.
We, more rational people, know about people like you and we have our ways to continue our work.

By the way, seems you have nothing interesting to do isn't it? When we are busy in something important we don't have time to just bother other people.
I suggest you to find something that could really worth. Or may be you could bite some bone...
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (martillo+Jul 22 2009, 07:15 PM)
"Nonsense", "stupidity" look familiar for me and have been demonstrated very wrongly un unfairly many times in history. So actually is subjective and people with "common sense" take more care about.
For example, you don't have a scientific proof that what I'm saying is wrong.

No, but I have grammatical proof that what you're saying is incoherent...
Confused2
It is unlikely that many of us will ever understand 'relativity'. It is even more unlikely that there will ever be an uber-explanation of relativity. Even if we could understand relativity and there were an uber-explanation .. it would have to be repeated continuously as new people reach the stage of being interested in relativity .. perhaps a few of those people might even go on to become 'physicists'.

The 'patient and amiable crank' is everyman that doesn't understand (for example) relativity (I'm thinking of 4Dguy in particular). As educated people* take their 'shots' at 4Dguy I'm learning too. For example:- some of you may have noticed that I have tried substituting "the laws of physics are the same in every frame" for "the speed of light is the same in every frame" - the latter being (to me) more intuitively satisfactory. Would any Wiki (or real) physicist care to comment?

-C2

* I notice that many others see an easy target .. and no .. it doesn't make you seem any smarter.
AlexG
QUOTE
some of you may have noticed that I have tried substituting "the laws of physics are the same in every frame" for "the speed of light is the same in every frame" -


Both statements are true.

Einstein himself preferred the name Equivalence theory rather than Relativity, because the basis of the theory is that the laws of physics are equvalent in every reference frame, when gravity and acceleration are taken into account.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (Confused2+Jul 22 2009, 07:27 PM)
The 'patient and amiable crank' is everyman that doesn't understand (for example) relativity (I'm thinking of 4Dguy in particular).

Except the everyman that doesn't understand physics doesn't claim to understand physics.
Not to mention the fact that 4Dguy is neither amiable nor patient in the context of physics discussions.
martillo
QUOTE
No, but I have grammatical proof that what you're saying is incoherent...

"Grammatical proof"?
Could it be something related to the fact that English is not my natural language and I make orthographical and grammatical mistakes may be often?
Sorry that i snot a proof that some proposition is wrong, just that is wrongly expressed.
I suggest in this case to focus more in semanthics, I mean the real meaning of things. You know we live in a world with lot of people with lot of languages and even just different "ways" to express themselves and some kind of "focus in the real aim" of the writing or speaking is needed all the time.
Of course this demands a disposition to comprehend other people...
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (martillo+Jul 22 2009, 07:46 PM)
"Grammatical proof"?

Yes. Proof by the application of accepted rules of grammar.

QUOTE
Could it be something related to the fact that English is not my natural language and I make orthographical and grammatical mistakes may be often?

Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it's incoherent, though.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Could it be something related to the fact that English is not my natural language and I make orthographical and grammatical mistakes may be often?

Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it's incoherent, though.

Sorry that i snot a proof that some proposition is wrong, just that is wrongly expressed.

A HAH! I now have textual evidence that you're committing a logical fallacy.

QUOTE
I suggest in this case to focus more in semanthics, I mean the real meaning of things. You know we live in a world with lot of people with lot of languages and even just different "ways" to express themselves and some kind of "focus in the real aim" of the writing or speaking is needed all the time. Of course this demands a disposition to comprehend other people...

No matter how much I might want to understand what you're saying half the time, you're still incoherent.
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