To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: Greenhouse theory smashed by biggest stone
PhysOrgForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > News discussions > Space & Earth Sciences News
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4

snelson5871
http://www.physorg.com/news11710.html

If anything rather than disproving global warming it acts as a sister to global warming. It states that water vapor is the best greenhouse gas well the increase in temprature from CO2 and other greenhouse gasses causes a small increase in temprature which in turn causes more water to evaporate from the ocean.Also though the Tunguska Event stirred up the upper atmosphere as the article states it released lots of dust into the atmosphere which blocks solar radiation so if the Tunguska meteor did that much to the atmosphere then the year it happened and for a couple after that would have been extremely cold years. So while it all sounds good the fact is it is most likely a sister to global warming rather than its killer.
Guest_neurohacker
Hum sounds like it came from?????


The Bush administration well they forgot the M.D. this time.
HeHeHe

neurohacker


Guest
Just another exposure of the pseudoscience that human kind is the sole cause of changes on the planet. Hate to break it to you, Chicken Littles, but humans aren't the center of the universe, the earth is round and nature changes itself more without human influence than with.
OdinsAcolyte
rolleyes.gif
I keep hearing the term "fighting climate change". It reminds me of the story of a tiger cub who tried to fight the wind. LOL
Kevin
The earth is a oblate spheroid. The effect of global warming is complex and controversial. It is important the science is objective. All ideas are valid but not all ideas are equally valid. What is critical is that we find out why CO2 is rising because this could be the herald of something very, very bad. Just look at Venus!
Wyndol Morrow
But, what of the drop of 2 or 3 degrees temperature when all U.S. aircraft were grounded after 9/11? Surely, here the water vapor played a huge role, without et explanations!
Guest
Note that the article is being "considered" for publication. It has yet to go through the review process and could very well be declined.

Also note that the journal Science First Hand is a Siberian multi-disciplinary journal that does not focus on climatology.

http://www.sibsciencenews.org

Simon
if this is an american report, i dont believe it for one seccond... from previous experience I have found their results to be biased in more than one case sad.gif
JoulesBeef
interesting this comes ouit right after nasa compreshensive report stating that humans are definately the cause of most of the global warming. (there are some natural causes but we are exasterbating the problem).

There seems to be a tendancy that when ever a report on global warming comes out, the industrialist have to release there own reports saying there is nothing wrong and we dont need to change anything.

These are the same people that say we will never ever run out of oil as the planet natural reproduces it faster than we could ever extract it.

I bet the also will say it is nature that put teflon in our blood and not dupont.

I do not doubt for a second that water vapour is a huge problem and that natural events can have great effects on our climate but i think the conclusions of this article is complete fabrication.
Clarence Darrow
Anything to refute the idea that climate change is caused by the burning of fossil fuels. Looks like those "scientists' from the Tobacco Research Institute must have gotten laid off because the cigarette makers have had to pay off all those lawsuits.

How convienent, blaming an Act of God for climate change, and letting Big Energy off the hook.

I might also add that the CEOs of Big Oil and other carbon pirates might be concerned about the possibility of a rash of lawsuits blaming them for the damage caused by climate change. An obscure thesis by an otherwise unknown author hits every Science Web Page like it was the Second coming of the Messiah?

Is it a coincidence that this Tsunga meteor meme juggernaut has spread across cyberspace at something close to the speed of light?

Perhaps a well co-ordinated operation in the cyber boiler rooms of the hydrocarbon crooks?

Next, they'll blame climate change on Aliens trying to terraform the Earth.
TheoryMan
Please.. commenters be realistic. "Oh, let's say it's politics and therefore everyone will disregard any plausible science behind it." Get a clue.

First things first, the whole aspect of global warming and the "greenhouse effect" are T H E O R I E S, not fact. Go back to high school to learn the differences between a theory and true fact. No one has yet to prove any direct relationship between said gasses and the ambient temperature of the planet. Hence, it is a theory.

Man, people. Don't believe blindly EVERYTHING you read. Sheesh.

To flatly say that there is just one thing that is having an impact upon the earth's temperature is foolish. Come on, does it take just one thing to start your car in the morning? Does it just take one thing to allow you to breathe each breath? No.

More than anything, there is a combination of things that might be causing any temperature change, if there even is one. Think about it.. records dating back to the early 1900's? How accurate are those records? How accurate are those readings? As our technology has increased, the number and accuracy of those temperature readings has also increased. Sure, you can state a margin of error for readings generated today, but that margin of error is different (and in some cases, MUCH different) for past readings. The information is only as good as its accuracy, and I, for one, am not all that convinced about past accuracy (hey, politics already got in to the previous comments!).

Now, for argument's sake, let's say the temperature is going up. Is it fossil fuels? Is it CO2? Could it be that, oh, major cyclical change in or pending invert of the Earth's magnetic field? Could it be that the population of the planet has exploded over the past 100yrs (what are we at now, 4 billion or something?)?

More than likely, it is a combination of ALL of those things. The Earth is a living breathing piece of life made up of all of these little things; and we humans make up just one of them.
Guest
QUOTE
Just look at Venus!

Sure! I'm also sure that in the next fifty years or so, scientists will find evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster's burning of fossil fuels on Venus was significantly responsible for the conditions observed there today.
carchiba
QUOTE (TheoryMan+Mar 14 2006, 09:26 PM)

More than likely, it is a combination of ALL of those things. The Earth is a living breathing piece of life made up of all of these little things; and we humans make up just one of them.

the earth is a living thing ? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Big Backer
I agree with the main story. I can see how ice crystals could reflect more energy since it is more abundant then other airborne chemical in our atmosphere. I think it has been shown under magnification, when ice forms it will try to form flat surfaces and more ridges which would make a better reflecting surface then the standard round form of water drops and water vapor. I think the main author of the story is right on the mark when he was essentially explaining two separate theories.

Not only is the amount of suspended water more important then the amounts of trace gases in our atmosphere; it is equally important to look at the temperature and the amount of frozen reflective particles that are responsible for reflecting more energy back down to the surface.

In his point about a meteor stirring the atmosphere and changing the upper climate I think the heat would cause more damage and could drive a type of weather chaos.
The heat alone from the explosion would immediately reach for the sky in an enormous super heated updraft. Which would in turn melt more ice into vapor. The change could stimulate a massive stirring of the upper weather system and disrupt the once calm area into something globally worse. Perhaps the crystals when quickly formed or changed could in fact turn to a type of non-translucent snow which in turn would prevent more radiation from returning to us in the first place.

Without studying such and event as it happens we can only continue to speculate.

If the meteor was large enough, the heat and additional water vapor released would quickly rise and it could melt and re-freeze with more suspended water vapor then existed before. A dense cloud like this could be responsible for long lasting cold events such as the dark ages.

An ocean impact leaves no impact crater, nothing to study and date. Is it that hard to see this when the Earth is 75% water?

I think too much of information we receive is just a lot of fear terrorism.
However, I feel the explanation of the previous upper atmospheric change might be valid and it deserves more study.

I think this is one of the times we be able to learn from the past and apply it to our future in a way to understand and possibly prevent or change what could be in store for our future.
Astrophysics Kid
I also feel that this article goes to show us that we're not at the center of everything concerning global warming.

I'm sure this planet has sustained its own climate for billions of years, despite what has happened to it. To say that because we have been burning gasoline and coal, and that because of this we're altering our clime altogether... I think it's just a bit nearsighted of ourselves. While I'm sure that we're not doing our planet a favor by throwing excess carbon, CFC's, methane, and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, I'm still not convinced we're the sole cause of "global warming."

But, we're Joe Public - what does the opinion of millions matter to a hundred scientists?

=P
Wiggly
Brace yourselves for the howls from the eco-communists. Scaring people about global warming has been their last, best hope at negating personal property rights worldwide.
Neil Farbstein
That theory is unbelievable! There is no conceivable way that the tunguska meteorite could be affecting the weather more than a century after it took place.
He is arussian and he may be motivated by the money from research grants he will get if he studies that alleged phenomenon.
Mhre
It is true that "the most potent greenhouse gas is water" it is also true that in a Non-Linear System an extreemly small change can produce and extreemly different result.

So even though Co2 omissions (which humans release) may only make up a fraction of a percent of all the gasses involved they still can have a significant impact.

bugmenot
Of course the "global warming" scientists work for free so they couldn't possibly be lying for govt grants. Science is pretty clear. If you have a theory, provide evidence. The "the tobacco lawyers did it" weirdos can't do that. Human caused global warming fanaticism is strictly a means for fascists to control everyone else. No thanks.
Iriseon
"Vladimir Shaidurov of the Russian Academy of Sciences"

It doesn't seem like he's some Bush-bot as the crazies will attempt to allege. Nor does it strike me as a product of Big Oil or Big Pharmaceutical or Big Brother.

The CO2 argument has always been flimsy. CO2 levels have risen fairly steadily while temperature has always been in flux. The graphs do not parallel each other whatsoever; we have had periods of cold summers and warm winters at different staggered times throughout history. In the 70's, the general scientific consensus was that we were headed for "global cooling" i.e. the next ice age. We have had mini ice ages in relatively recent modern history.

Another very important factor is solar activity. Scientists have predicted that the sun will be 50% more active in the next 11 years, producing larger solar flares than have ever been recorded. The ice caps on MARS are melting and have been for some time now. Everything seems to point to the fact that the sun is very dynamic in it's magnetic fluctuations, and not a static thermostat with set dials.

Either that, or Bush and Halliburton are drilling for oil on Mars and *** Cheney is cooperating with Osama in secret to blow up the sun.
badthinker
"First things first, the whole aspect of global warming and the "greenhouse effect" are T H E O R I E S, not fact. Go back to high school to learn the differences between a theory and true fact. No one has yet to prove any direct relationship between said gasses and the ambient temperature of the planet. Hence, it is a theory."

"Human caused global warming fanaticism is strictly a means for fascists to control everyone else. No thanks."

Hey I have another theory for you. The world is flat. Dont go to far or youll fall off the edge!
What are the fanatics(read: scientists) trying to control? Fascists? These are the type of comments at a physics forum? Associating fascism with global warming. Extremely disappointingt.

All you who doubt global warming answer this question?
Where does all the carbon go?
Of course everyone knows that oil, coal, natural gas all took millions of years to form. Its simply compressed carbon. Now, all this carbon from millions of years of accumulation is suddenly released because we decide to use fossil fuels for energy. Againg Where does all the carbon go? You would think trees, but industrialization has deforested most of the world?
Any answers?

" Brace yourselves for the howls from the eco-communists. Scaring people about global warming has been their last, best hope at negating personal property rights worldwide."

*** are you talking about. No one is trying to take anyone personal property rights away. Oh wait you must mean your right to poison the earth and release noxious compounds into the air and poison the rivers we depend on. Or destroy all forests and kill all the beautiful diversity of life nature has provided us. Simply disgusting.
this forum(or maybe just this thread) is filled with ignorant corporate fanboys.
pathetic.
Guest2
Well lets look at the facts, the average atmospheric and oceanographic temperatures have indeed risen, however slightly.

So, something is at work here, but I personally doubt that it is just one thing like CO2 or the tunguska event.

Perhaps the more likely explanation is that there is more CO2 trapping a little bit more heat, then theres more heat available from the burning of fossil fuels, another heat source is the 6 billion humans now living on the planet, finally we've deforested some important rain forests in the Amazon (etc) that have caused cloud and evaporation cycles to change. Less clouds equals more heat.

All these things combined have produced the net effects of what we call Global Warming, almost none is reversible. So get ready for some interesting weather.

The Solution? Its Simple, CONSERVE ENERGY.

How? Use mass transit (if available), walk, combine errands, car pool.

Cook OUTSIDE in the SUMMER and INSIDE in the WINTER.

Invent a fusion based renewable energy source.

Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (bugmenot+Mar 15 2006, 04:38 AM)
Of course the "global warming" scientists work for free so they couldn't possibly be lying for govt grants. Science is pretty clear. If you have a theory, provide evidence. The "the tobacco lawyers did it" weirdos can't do that. Human caused global warming fanaticism is strictly a means for fascists to control everyone else. No thanks.

They have a delusion that the disruption of society resulting from greenhouse warming will somehow make them richer or it will benefit them in some way.
The disater in New Orleans was caused by poor planning that neglected the greenhouse effect and the rising intensity of huricanes and and floodwaters. Their dogmatic state of denial has caused the biggest disater since the San Francisco earthquake leveled that city. The president and congress have budgeted
$200 for reconstruction of that city. Sacremento might undergo total destruction from an earthquake it is possible a storm will burst the dykes and levees protecting it. This country has gone from a balanced buget in 2000 to the biggest deficit ever, six years later.
Hmmmmer
Ok, so if water vapour has a greater effect than CO/CO2 on global warming, what happens when we switch our automobiles to zero-emission vehicles that emit nothing but H20? Will that accelerate global warming even more than if we continued to burn CO/CO2 emitting fuels?

Hmmm... maybe global warming is more complicated than the Tree Huggers think. wink.gif
just_some_guy
I promote that we have been experiencing global warming since the end of the last ice age.

I submit that it is foolish to attempt to extract useful from a sample size of one.

In the frame of the earth's geological time scale any delta measured using the listed 150 years of temperature data will be but a small portion of a percent of statistical error. I think even trying to pin point the lowest temperature in the last ice age to within 150 years, using our current tools is not possible. I personally will have to wait until I am provided this information through the touch of his noodly appendage before I am able to firmly believe either that we know the cause of 'global warming' or the existence of cold fusion, and for cold fusion I also want a sample size greater than one.

Thanks for reading my rant.
El_Machinae
QUOTE (Wiggly+Mar 15 2006, 12:11 AM)
Brace yourselves for the howls from the eco-communists. Scaring people about global warming has been their last, best hope at negating personal property rights worldwide.

You're quite wrong. The Kyoto accord is trying to INCREASE property rights, not decrease them. People will get the right to buy and sell the right to pollute, instead of just being able to pollute.

Putting a price, a tradable price, on pollution is much more 'free market' than letting people pollute at no cost. If you want to take trees from my property, property rights allow me to sell them. If you want to pollute the air that goes into my property, property rights allow you to purchase the right.

NOT having property rights is the opposite, where the biggest and baddest can just come onto my land and take my trees. Property rights is about paying for what you use.
Guest_anonymous
Dihydron Monoxide strikes again! Help ban this dangerous chemical! For details on the hazardous of diahydron monoxide, also known as Hydric Acid, visit

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
Steveo
QUOTE
First things first, the whole aspect of global warming and the "greenhouse effect" are T H E O R I E S, not fact. Go back to high school to learn the differences between a theory and true fact. No one has yet to prove any direct relationship between said gasses and the ambient temperature of the planet. Hence, it is a theory.


No, the greenhouse effect is a fact. The fact that water vapor and CO2 absorb and reflect at certain wavelengths is a fact. And it is a fact that this wavelength corresponds to infrared. It is also a fact that if you have heat in a system and as it tries to escape and it is reflected back into the system the system will be warmer than if the heat escaped. All facts. This is how the greenhouse effect works. No one with half a brain disputes the greenhouse effect. The dispute comes in as to how much of an effect human behavior has on the global change in temperature. I personally believe human behavior has a small effect. One that might in the future be measurable. I however don't think we know enough about climate, weather, and atmospheric science to measure with any accuracy and confidence humans specific contributation to this temperature increase. This being said, I am totally in support of cutting emissions, and trying to find a cleaner source of energy. This is important for the history of mankind, and we have to start sometime...might as well be now right? My problem lies with the propaganda being spewed out by environmentalists. Blatantly lying about our contribution. I don't like being flooded with lies, and it seems when you try and confront these lies you get labelled as 'being in the back pocket of the oil companies'.
At any rate, if there is any evidence which clearly shows that we have a larger contribution than I think, please post, as I am not so big headed that my mind can't be changed.
El_Machinae
I have seminars on the topic, but they are audio files. Would you want that?

It's over an hour long and requires that you imagine some of the displays. However, it's presented by university profs, who have devoted their lives to studying this (and it's not from www.hempandpot.org or anything hippie)
snelson5871
If there is no greenhouse effect then how come the grass in my neighborhood is green when it was brown just a couple weeks ago plus the trees are in their final stage of budding which until this year hasnt happened until mid april here in Missouri and then explain why the flowers in my front yard bloomed 2 weeks ago considering the fact that last may when i moved in to my home they had not yet bloomed. Also explain how come the storms in the midwest are growing stronger and stronger with each passing year. Anyone who knows about the formation of the storms we have had the kind that drop baseball sized hail and shoot out 113 tornados knows it is caused from a wet warm air mass crosses into a dry cool air mass. The warm air mass that generated the storms we just dealt with is supposed to stay around southern oklahoma and texas until at least may. Not to mention all the evidence that the polar ice caps are melting. Plus the permafrost in mongolia isnt permafrost anymore it is thawing.
Heccateus
I just registered with physorg just because of this silly story. (can't beleive I misspelled my useal username...)

the author claims that the current extreme rate of mean average global climate wrming is due to the Tunguska event due to perturbed water vapor.

My main objection is that tunguska like events are actually fairly common. From what I understand they happen about once every hundered years or so; mostly out to sea where they aren't noticed much; and in the past there were much fewer people to notice them...and they tended to regard these things as the voice of God (or spagetti monster/ whatever). I will check this rate after I go shopping and pay some bills.

But if the rate of Tunguska scale events is such, and if such events do so affect the climate, then it can be checked against the climate record. While we only have direct climate measurements out to 150 years, these records have been used to calibrate climate models based on coral samples, tree rings, ice cores, etc.; this gives us a very good model of the climate out to about 1200 years ago. From what I have seen of this record, there have been no climate warmings on the scale we are now experiencing comparable to this period. Ie the current level of mean global warmth exceeds previous peaks; and the current rate of warming increase also exceeds previous increases during this period (20 year intervals) I'll see if I can find the chart

in the mean time, > HERE < is the take on this story by professional climatologists on their blog.

p.s. > HERE < btw is the aforementioned graphs showing and explaing the best of the current climate modelings of the past 1200 years or so.
Guest
Could y'all please decide amongst yourselves if it is the Big Oil Fascists or the Neo-Primitive Commie Wackos that are lying?

In the mean time shut-up about the politics of it m'kay?

1) Data on this event consistently points to the fact that recorded temperatures have been rising over the last hundred years or so- and before that it's difficult to get precise measurements except through methods such as measuring tree rings, and ice cores.

Only problem with those methods is that temperatures and micro climates have the potential to skew data, and until someone compiles the various point sources of this into a global picture that is a bit more comprehensive and significant, I wouldn't even accept that data as accurate, only indicative.

2) Significant global events such as this are rare and equally difficult to gage accurately- we have not had such a meteor impact in our century, nor have we had a mount Vesuvius. We have had a few decades of significant above ground nuclear testing which may have an impact of it's own.

It is an interesting notion that upper atmospheric disturbances may have a more profound effect on our climate, than lower atmospheric events or disturbances... this is merely one such event and the trace evidence for it is at present a valid hypothesis.

3) The natural cycle of the earth's climate has been to fluctuate widely over thousands of years- we have emerged from an ice age very recently from a geologic time scale, and have not yet reached the hot-house temperatures of ages such as Pleistocene, et al.

Tieing this back to point 1, I recall reading an article published in a layman's journal on the 'mini-ice age' issue where our classical middle-ages were actually warmer than at present. Does this mean we are actually just normalizing things?
Question BS
How dare anyone question the holy gosple of Global Warming? rolleyes.gif

I swear that sometimes I wonder which bothers me more: religious fanatics or environmentalist fanatics.


BTW- I can believe that you mispelled your name. laugh.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (Heccateus+Mar 15 2006, 04:23 PM)
I just registered with physorg just because of this silly story. (can't beleive I misspelled my useal username...)

the author claims that the current extreme rate of mean average global climate wrming is due to the Tunguska event due to perturbed water vapor.

My main objection is that tunguska like events are actually fairly common.  From what I understand they happen about once every hundered years or so; mostly out to sea where they aren't noticed much; and in the past there were much fewer people to notice them...and they tended to regard these things as the voice of God (or spagetti monster/ whatever).  I will check this rate after I go shopping and pay some bills.

But if the rate of Tunguska scale events is such, and if such events do so affect the climate, then it can be checked against the climate record.  While we only have direct climate measurements out to 150 years, these records have been used to calibrate climate models based on coral samples, tree rings, ice cores, etc.; this gives us a very good model of the climate out to about 1200 years ago.  From what I have seen of this record, there have been no climate warmings on the scale we are now experiencing comparable to this period.  Ie the current level of mean global warmth exceeds previous peaks; and the current rate of warming increase also exceeds previous increases during this period (20 year intervals) I'll see if I can find the chart

in the mean time, > HERE < is the take on this story by professional climatologists on their blog.

p.s. > HERE < btw is the aforementioned graphs showing and explaing the best of the current climate modelings of the past 1200 years or so.

That's a fairly self selected group of "professional climatologists"

The "contributors" to the Blog are the ones who did the Studies Cited.

Does it mean much when you pat yourselves on the back?

I've had it up to here with reconstructions of Bristlecone Pines.

Trees for which it has been SHOWN are not good proxies.

Though the graphs are presented as the best of "modeling" they are not. In fact, of the 10 reconstructions, 6 of them include authors listed together in the second reference, while a 7th includes Schweingruber who is also a joint author of one of the others as are Osborn and Briffa.

So these reconstructions were all carried out by a small group of interconnected scientists who have been gorging themselves at the UN IPPC trough.

Mann has been the poster boy for Global Warming for almost a decade, till his analysis program which produced the infamous Hockey Stick was shown to produce a hockey stick with almost ANY data.

The world has been warming since the end of the last major Glaciation, 15,000 years ago. We went through a "Little Ice Age" and are now rebounding from that.

The current rise in temperature is CAUSING the rise in CO2, not the other way round.

Arthur
El_Machinae
Ah, and the thousand barrels of oil per second have nothing to do with the CO2, I imagine.
Heccateus
Adoucette,
A good but non-expert skeptic is logically required to place a good deal of trust in the findings of the majority of experts. That is what I am doing.

This particular group of experts were/are among dozens qualified experts who work(ed) on the IPPC reports.

Finding one or two scientists with a different idea does is not reason to be skeptical of the majority of experts.

The russian scientist's Tunguska idea may or may not be plausible. Notice that the peer review is still pending.

re: the Osborn and Briffa findings
heres what they did:
QUOTE
Osborn and Briffa, by contrast, have carefully taken these issues into account. They make use only of those proxy records which demonstrate a statistically significant relationship with modern instrumental temperature records, and which were dated accurately enough that records from different locations could be compared against each other in a chronologically consistent manner. They then standardize the records and look for evidence of simultaneous relative departures that point in the same direction (i.e. "warm" or "cold") using appropriate pre-set thresholds for defining a significant event (they try both one and two standard deviations). There is an important distinction between this careful statistical approach, and the selective cherry picking that is often used by contrarian commentators to misrepresent the available evidence. For example, it is possible to find evidence of significant warmth or significant coldness over literally any century-long interval in at least one of the 14 records used by Osborn and Briffa (see Figure 1 in the article). However, this alone tells us very little. What is of interest, instead, is whether centuries-long intervals can be found over which warm events or cold events tend to cluster.


If bristlecone pines were used, it's because they could be demonstrated as actually being reliable....and they were not used solo.

> HERE < btw is a mostly complete FAQ on most if not all points raised by climate contrarians.
> HERE < is the beginnings of an attempt at reconcilliation at Scientific American.
Guest_joe
Actually the planet responds quite well as a whole to whatever is thrown at it. The biomass has remained about the same for quite a long time now. It was even a little higher before cyano bacteria began producing gobs of poisonous oxygen. But the earth did fine as a whole.
Its the parts which make up the whole that gets the story intriguing. In time we'll find out not only whether we're causing measurable changes to the gaseous ratios in our atmosphere, but more importantly whether our species will be one of the stronger ones that adapt or not. Physically we're not a tough species. We more than make up for it mentally. But wherever the fault lies, second and third world countries will continue with their industrial revolutions and our atmosphere will continue to be spewed upon by all participants near, far and very far. And most likely our technology will save the future if it needs saving.
I do wish we could be easier on the trees though. They respirate the planet, provide homes and shelter for furry/scaly forest creatures, and beautify our lawns. We like trees.
StevenA
QUOTE (El_Machinae+Mar 16 2006, 03:57 AM)
Ah, and the thousand barrels of oil per second have nothing to do with the CO2, I imagine.

The thing is that even if every single increase in recent history in CO2 is due to human actions that still leaves the vast majority of any warming as unexplained.

Water vapor varies runs around 3-4% of the atmosphere, whereas CO2 is 0.038% or 100 times lower and if you want to consider what part of that CO2 is assumed to be due to human influences it's only about 0.01% or less than 1/10,000th of it and compared to the total water vapor and CO2 that's only 1/400th of those greenhouse gases and sunspot activity has recently been at highs also yet we still had some record colds here in California. What's the real motivation for all the fuss? If anything I'd assume environmentalists should prefer to see more plantlife and should be thankful. We came out of an Ice Age so you'd hope things would warm up anyway. Though the upper atmosphere has actually been getting colder. Now I won't deny that humans don't have any effect on things but CO2 is transient anyway - the more you have the faster it gets adsorped by plants and water anyway so to keep increasing the levels of CO2 (assuming most the increase was from humans) you'd have to continually do it faster and faster for an extended period or time but we're suppose to run out of fossil fuels anyway so how can that be accomplished? Not only that but plants grow exponentially, so we'd need to increase output faster than exponentially (basically impossible in the long run) and then if things slowed down the CO2 would drop again.

I tried to find it again but I read an article with some graphs supposedly showing that when all greenhouse effects are considered (not just the small amount of CO2) along with sunspot activity, they found a 92% correlation between these and global temperatures. I admit I'm skeptical it's so high (I wish I could find it again), but it makes sense also because it should simply be a matter of how much solar energy is output, how much we reflect back and how much thermal energy has to be radiated away later.
drbob
Why is it so hard for common sense to prevail in the global warming debate? How many times in the earth's history has carbon been removed from the atmosphere? It is true that the earth was once a much warmer place covered with life which has periodically been subjected to mass extinctions and subsequent burial, followed by periods of regrowth. The buried biomass stays buried and is transformed into all the fossil fuels and all other carbon bearing materials underground. The new biomass must get its carbon from the atmosphere. With enough of these cycles, the atmospheric carbon load decreases. We have been removing biomass from the surface and putting back into the atmosphere the buried carbon from previous cycles. Maybe the easiest way to reverse man's effect would be to harvest trees and bury them and replant and regrow and cut and bury. Maybe in a few generations we could bury enough carbon in old coal mines and tar sand mines to replace the carbon we are removing and end our contribution to global warming.
snelson5871
CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas we release though. There are massive amounts of PFC's and CFC's and then there is this stuff
QUOTE
most potent greenhouse gas
http: www findarticles com p articles mi_hb3441 is_200101 ai_n8207547

Quote:
taken from http: encarta msn com encyclopedia_761578504_2 Greenhouse_Effect html
Experts are concerned about other industrial chemicals that may have heat-trapping abilities. In 2000 scientists observed rising concentrations of a previously unreported compound called trifluoromethyl sulphur pentafluoride. Although present in extremely low concentrations in the environment, the gas still poses a significant threat because it traps heat more effectively than all other known greenhouse gases. The exact sources of the gas, undisputedly produced from industrial processes, still remain uncertain.


http: www fluoridealert org pollution 1331 html


Which is only produced through industrial means. Then there is methane a very potent greenhouse gas which we humans release in our feces and flatulance and then ammonia which is produced in urine now in third world countries this greenhouse gas producing sewage it builds up fast in the millions of tons every day and in the rich countries we dump it into the ocean and rivers and lakes in the billions of tons. Now though no one ever thinks of things like that it also has a major impact. With 60 billion humans creating methane and ammonia every day plus releasing PFC's and CFC's and that other stuff in my quote not to mention the smog in crowded cities we are releasing a huge amount of gasses into the air that wouldn't be there were it not for us. All these factors combined are making a huge impact on global warming not some meteor that hit earth forever and a day ago. Plus has anyone else noticed that there are very few days the sky is blue? I live in kansas city mo and the sky here is only blue maybe 4 or 5 days out of the month. I look at the sky and trees every day because I see the effects of global warming all around me with the flowers blooming in febuary and the trees in their final stage of budding in march instead of late april early may and with the fact that for a whole week in january I wore shorts and barbecued every day. Now the sky has been white constantly instead of blue which shows an increase in water vapor which is part of the big chain reaction. We warm the planet with greenhouse gasses and more water evaporates in the oceans which gives us more water vapor in the air which is yet another greenhouse gas but gives people trying to discredit global warming a nice tool. "oh there is more water vapor this is what causes global warming not humans" but they dont look into why there is more water vapor or they make up something misleading.
Heccateus
I found > HERE < a mention of hindcast climate models run in 2001. Showing the model run 3 different times (starting from 1850 when global temperatures were first being measured meaningfully); once without human forcings; once with just human forcing; and finally the model run combining all forcings.

the red line shows actual observations, and the grey band shows what the model thinks is happening (sorry if your colorblind). The first graphs shows the grey band (natual-forcings-only model) as being mostly flat. The second model run shows tthe grey band (representing human-forcings-only model) more or less matching what the red line is doing, but still off. The final graph shows the combined forcings model greatly matching the observed temperature data.

One theme I have noticed from contrarians is they complain that the 'natural forcings/feedbacks' didn't include solar variance. I notice the explanation below the graphs mentions: [i]"The simulations represented by the band in (a) were done with only natural forcings: solar variation and volcanic activity. So they can be quiet about this now...or be seen as fools or liars if they choose.

also note that this was from five years ago. The models have gotten better since then. I would like to see a completer recreationfrom 1200 years ago.
adoucette
Really?

From the SAME document, from the SAME Chapter.

QUOTE
Accurate simulation of current climate does not guarantee the ability of a model to simulate climate change correctly. Climate models now have some skill in simulating changes in climate since 1850 (see Section 8.6.1), but these changes are fairly small compared with many projections of climate change into the 21st century.


HINDCASTING is EASY.

WITH HINDCASTING YOU KNOW HOW TO TWEAK THE MODELS TO GET THE RESULTS YOU WANT.

FORECASTING IS DIFFICULT.

How well have their FORECASTS matched reality??

Do they have ANY Forcast which shows a 7 year COOLING trend since 1998????

You know, with CO2 still rising and Sulfates FALLING (they are used in the models to produce the HUGE cooling period from the 40s to the late 70s) with Solar NOT falling off and NO Pinatabo like effects??

Now DO THEY????

Go ahead, make my day.

Arthur
Heccateus
QUOTE
How well have their FORECASTS matched reality??


> HERE < is an answer. Basically, pretty well.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How well have their FORECASTS matched reality??


> HERE < is an answer. Basically, pretty well.

In 1988, James Hansen of NASA GISS fame predicted that the temperature would climb over the next 12 years, with a brief episode of cooling in the event of a large volcanic eruption. He made this prediction in a landmark paper and before a Senate hearing, which marked the official "coming out" to the general public of the dangers of Anthropogenic Global Warming. 12 years later, he was remarkably correct, requiring an adjustment only for the timing difference between the simulated future volcanic eruption and the actual eruption of Mount Pinatubo.


This also answers your 7 year question. No global mean average cooling in sight. (though I heard of one russian scientist(?) claiming that there will be a significant reduction in solar energy from the sun in a few decades...I have no idea if this claim is real, just poutting iot out for discussion.)

p.s.
yes Hindcasting is easy...and reasonable; and is successfully used in a wide variety of sciences.

With hindcasting, one may very well know how to tweak a model to get results you want. But the goal is to honestly get the real world results reliably solely on the integrity of the model. And a good scientist would want to as honest as possible because he knows that scientists in other nations, universities, etc are going to have their own competing models and if theirs do a better job he will lose his job (or funding or whatnot)...just look at what happened to France's Blandlot or S. Korea's Huang...no fun at all.

If you are going to allege that climate scientists around the world have somehow united and conspired to lie to the world, you had better have damn good evidence. Your own incredulity at hindcasting is not enough. (And using all caps is not impressive either.)

p.p.s.
to reframe the comment about sulfates etc:
Sulfur, soot, and other aerosols emmitted by volcanos, forest fires, and fossil fuels etc., reflects sunlight, and thus causes a bit of cooling which counters warming from other forcings. Humans have over the paast 50 years tried to reduce the sulfur output of their fossil fuels, this will to a degree allow those other forcings to warm things up. Some suggest that the reduction of sulfates by itself is an adequate explanation for the current warming; and thus implying that anthropogenic CO2 forcing has no effect at all...contrary to a century of science of the subject. CO2 is understood as a climate temperature forcer.

Whether or not we see final temperatures rise or fall as CO2 rises is matter of the sum of all forcings. Instances of temperatures falling as CO2 rises, certainly are situations where other forcings (solar radiation, orbital distance, angle of the earth, other changes in earth's gasses, albedo etc) are having negative effects over and above the positive effecs of the CO2 and other greenhouse gasses.
adoucette
So, are you going to post a LINK to his ACTUAL model output that shows ACTUAL temperature predictions out to 2006?

I predicted that the price of gold would go up. Don't make me a brilliant economist.

As to Hansen:

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020103...ouse.html#press

He has been moving away from the IPCC driven hype machine for some time.

The issue is not at all simple.

Of COURSE the globe is warming.

Of COURSE the oceans are rising.

Of COURSE the glaciers are melting.

These trends have been going on since the end of the last Ice Age.

To predict that the next decade will be warmer is pretty much a safe bet.

In the last 15 decades we have had 2 that were down, 1 flat and 11 up. All superimposed on a 150 year warming trend.

Trouble is there was NO SIGNIFICANT RISE in CO2 till mid 20th Century. Thus the warming BEGAN 100 years BEFORE the CO2 rise.

To predict the oceans will rise is pretty much a safe bet.

They have been rising at 0.9 mm per year for over the last 100 years, but there is no discernible acceleration in the rate.

Just like the failed Club of Rome predictions from the 70s the latest UN grab for power is ALSO fueled with graphs whose trend line accelerates with time.

Thus the LONG RANGE predictions are DIRE even if the short range predictions are pale in comparison.

Since the SHORT RANGE predictions are essentially the SAME AS the LONG RANGE TREND, they offer NO EVIDENCE THAT THE EXTREMES THEY PREDICT HAVE ANY VALIDITY.

Want to try to defend the SCENARIOS that the long range predictions are based upon????

Want to explain how in a world with diminishing fossil fuels and rising fossil fuel prices we are supposed to burn more and more of them over time?

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Heccateus+Mar 17 2006, 02:27 PM)
If you are going to allege that climate scientists around the world have somehow united and conspired to lie to the world, you had better have damn good evidence.

LIE????

Let's take one of the leading Climate Scientists word on it:

Steven Schneider’s view on a scientist’s ethical responsibility:
"We have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest."

Then again, is it LYING when one makes ASSUMPTIONS?

Not really, but when you are modelling something, it is entirely possible for your BELIEFS to influence what you consider VALID ASSUMPTIONS.

Its known as a "self fulfilling prophecy"

How about these:

There are ominous signs:
There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production, with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.
The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen changes in their growing season resulting in overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has fallen by a fraction of a degree, a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.
“Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data,” concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. “Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions.”
Meteorologists begin by noting the slight change in overall temperature that produces large numbers of pressure centers in the upper atmosphere. These break up the smooth flow of westerly winds over temperate areas. The stagnant air produced in this way causes an increase in extremes of local weather such as droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long freezes, delayed monsoons and local temperature increases – all of which have a direct impact on food supplies.

From: The Cooling World - NewsWeek April 28th 1975

If the cooling continues, we can reasonably calculate that potentially two billion people could starve to death or die of other symptoms of chronic malnutrition by the year 2050. Potentially, we could all die if global famines and embargos on scarce resources, both caused by the cooling, lead to a world war.
We simply cannot afford to gamble against this possibility by ignoring it. We cannot risk inaction. Those scientists who say we should ignore the evidence and the theories suggesting Earth is entering a period of climatic instability are acting irresponsibly. The indications that our climate can soon change for the worse are too strong to be reasonably ignored.

Book by Lowe Ponte, The Cooling – 1976


Interestingly the impact of CO2 and the use of Fossil fuel was the most common reason given for the cooling climate. The “science” that supported this contention was just based on different assumptions.

Recipe for a good global scare
The hype about global cooling was always the same: unprecedented low temperatures; the coldest weather ever recorded; unusual floods and storms; a rapid shift in the world’s climate towards an icy apocalypse. Now, however, the scare is about global warming. To convert from the first scare to the second, all you have to do is substitute ‘the coldest weather ever recorded’ with ‘the warmest weather ever recorded’.

A good environmental scare needs just two crucial ingredients: impending catastrophe and a suitable culprit.

The ice age scare failed because temperatures had already begun to climb.

But global warming has been quite successful because temperatures have not yet begun to fall. They will, and most likely within this decade or the next.

Conversely, one of the real threats to mankind is the danger of collision with a large asteroid. It has happened in the past with catastrophic effect, and it will happen again. Why are there are no conferences, resolutions, gatherings, protests and newspaper headlines about asteroid impacts?

There WOULD be if you could find someone to blame. If you could persuade people that the oil companies were responsible for the asteroids, there would be massive programs to ‘raise awareness’ about the asteroid danger.

Global warming has the perfect culprit though, the industrialised nations and their consumers who became rich by burning a lot of fossil fuels. This unabashed consumption is releasing a lot of carbon dioxide, which is dangerously heating up the world.

There are two facts in the scare. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, one that traps heat on Earth. The concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is rising. The rest is mostly made up from data that is tortured until it confesses.

We also know that if CO2 were the REAL issue, than cutbacks on CO2 would not be excused for ~ 1/2 of the Global population. The ISSUE is redistribution of wealth, not reduction in CO2.

We know that drastic cutbacks in energy usage would result in billions of human beings having shorter and harsher lives. We don’t know how much suffering would be averted by reduced emissions of carbon dioxide, but consider where we might be if the world’s governments had acted to avert Global Cooling back in the 70s.

Arthur
adoucette
From the IPCC 2001 report.

Chapter 8 - The Scientific Basis

“The fact that the global mean temperature has increased since the late 19th Century and that other trends have been observed does not necessarily mean that an anthropogenic effect on the climate system has been identified. Climate has always varied on all time-scales, so the observed change may be natural.

Arthur
adoucette
Lie???

A little review:

“Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”
Maurice Strong - Secretary General of the Rio Summit in June of 1992

“In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention. The real enemy, then, is humanity itself.”

Club of Rome -- which gave us Limits to Growth in 1972 and, subsequently, Mankind at the Turning Point in 1974 which contained the quote “The world has cancer, and the cancer is man.” In their 1991 publication The First Global Revolution by Alexander King and Bertrand Schneider this quote appears.

“Do not feed the poor! It will result in an exponential increase in population! Society will be destroyed.”
Reverend Thomas Malthus, 1798 A.D

“The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s the world will undergo famines -- hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. . . . Food production programs will only provide a stay of execution. . . We can no longer afford merely to treat the symptoms of the cancer of population growth; the cancer itself must be cut out. Population control is the only answer.”
Paul Ehrlich, 1968

When thinking of the sin and evil which results from a broken relationship with God, Christians generally think of sin against people not against the environment. But if we take seriously the clear responsibility of care for the Earth given to humans by God, we are bound also to recognize that to fail in that task is not only a sin against nature but a sin against God. It has been suggested that this new category of sin should include activities that lead to ‘species extinction, reduction in genetic diversity, pollution of the water, land and air, habitat destruction and disruption of sustainable life styles’. This new sense of sin could also include the sin of too much talk and too little action!

Sir John Houghton - Former head of the UK Meteorological Office, Publisher of Al Gore's book on GW and Former Co-Chair of the IPCC.


As opposed to:


The unreality of the assumptions about economic growth in developing countries is highlighted by projections which were recently released on the IPCC’s SRES website. These projections imply that, even for the lowest emission scenarios, the average income of South Africans will have overtaken that of Americans by a very wide margin by the end of the century. In fact America's per capita income will then have been surpassed not only by South Africa's, but also by that of other emerging economic powerhouses, including Algeria, Argentina, Libya, Turkey and North Korea. The SRES summary for policymakers tells us that the 40 scenarios “together encompass the current range of uncertainties of future emissions”. Plainly, this is incorrect. The panel's low-emissions scenarios make exceptionally optimistic assumptions about economic growth in the developing world. The combination of overstated gaps and of built-in assumptions about the extent of convergence in the average incomes of rich and poor countries yields projections of GDP for developing regions which are improbably high. Even the scenarios which give the lowest figures for projected cumulative emissions in the course of the century assume that average incomes in the developing countries as a whole will increase at a much faster rate than has ever been achieved in the past.

David Henderson - -Westminster Business School, formerly the chief economist of the OECD


So do they LIE????

Or do they just use selective statistics?

Matter of opinion really.

But, NO ONE paid a whole lot of attention to climate scientists UNTIL in the mid 70s when a BUNCH of them made money (and got funding) for selling scare stories on the "COMING ICE AGE".

Well that fell through, so now they got a new horse to ride and new backers, but guess what, most of the JOCKEYS are the same as before, just changed their colors.

Arthur
Heccateus
QUOTE
Trouble is there was NO SIGNIFICANT RISE in CO2 till mid 20th Century. Thus the warming BEGAN 100 years BEFORE the CO2 rise.


I would say that is incorrect...but not by much. Incidentally, it is true that direct global measurements of CO2 didn't begin untiil the early 50's, increases in CO2 at the time were about 1ppb per year, it is now consistently over 2ppb.

Hmm many new responses and unfortuneately it is time for me to go to bed. Quick responses:

Schneider is just one scientist. Who are people, and are allowed to have their own political and activist views. What I was asking for was evidence of mass international institutional conspiracies. Incidentally, when scientists do discuss science issues that they are confident in with all the caveats, it makes them look to the public that they are actually unsure. Schneiders view on this problem is appropriate given this nature of the general public. It's the Sagan Effect, people like to hear "Billyuns and Billyuns", not obscure and seemingly erudite hard data with caveats. And even then if you are a passenger in a car and see a life threatening problem the driver doesn't, is it not better to state the problem dramatically and simply, as opposed to uninterestedly.

As to dealing with the effects, I think it's best to go libertarian. The societies which can adapt the fastest and bestest are those with the least regulations and other roadblocks. Additionally the best thing to do is to improve the efficiency at which wealth is created (in terms of dollar cost), again the libertarians do better here. Historically, this rate has been around 2% per year. Increasing this to about 3% will generate sufficient dV's over time to counter past wasteful CO2 output. Also Freemarket solutions, such as > TERRAPASS <, allow one to pay for cleaing up one's waste CO2 much the same way one pays for sewage or garbage pickup; no this is not like the old Catholic Indulgences. (I have a MINI Cooper S, and a year of TerraPass only cost me $50)

time for ZZzzzzz...
deadbeat
WOOP WOOP! Dive Dive Dive!

Way to go Adoucette! Hehe I saw your name finally and I knew this fairy tale of misinformation was about to shut down LOL.

Nothing like hard facts to really give em trouble.

You STILL da man

Deadbeat
Heccateus
QUOTE
So do they LIE????

Or do they just use selective statistics?

Matter of opinion really.


No, it's a matter of evidence.

When I asked for clear evidence of wrong doing, I don't mean quoting the public statements of the blowhards, I mean collations of emails and other correspondance from the ordinary working scientists, much like the Enron emails, correspondance which shows that results were being deliberately fudged, dissenters and contrary evidence being suppressed etc,.

Right now all I see are Republican apparatchiks doing this against the climate scientists in America.
ormondotvos
[FONT=Times][SIZE=7][COLOR=blue]

Recent member, (but old physics 1961 FSU Linear Accelerator).

I'm somewhat distressed to see the ad hominem kneejerk arguments.

My first reaction to the original story a few days ago was to google the author, Vladimir Shairdurov, which gives his CV, impressive. Director of the Institute of Computational Modeling, exactly the field we're always told should be doing the theory on this.

The next thing I looked for was wacky theories in the translation of the article. Although I did notice some typically Russian language idiomatic behavior. that was OK, too. So I plowed on into the article. His description of the slow lowering of temperature, rise after 1908, flat spots during atmospheric testing matched the times of his description.

Now we get into the deep theory. I, frankly, can barely follow him through the phase changes and reflectivity and absorption curves, but it certainly doesn't have any obvious flaws to this admittedly non-atmospheric scientist. I did find out some interesting things, though, about the function of the higher atmosphere ice crystals and the pearl and silver clouds.

The overloading of the upper atmosphere water system and the chaotic effects it might have are right in line with current theory, I say theory, about global warming. I seem to remember a recent warning that there is no proof that Katrina was "caused" by global warming, although there was some evidence that the sudden radical rise from Saffir-Simpson 2 to 5 was as it ran over a Gulf of Mexico hotspot.

Did you note the comment about the bright night sky? Noctilucent means "night light", right?

I'd sure like to see an exhaustive analysis of this by a real high-level atmospheric scientific computational modeler like Vladimir is. Sort of like, say, PEER REVIEW.
adoucette
QUOTE (Heccateus+Mar 18 2006, 02:12 AM)
QUOTE
So do they LIE????

Or do they just use selective statistics?

Matter of opinion really.


No, it's a matter of evidence.

When I asked for clear evidence of wrong doing, I don't mean quoting the public statements of the blowhards, I mean collations of emails and other correspondance from the ordinary working scientists, much like the Enron emails, correspondance which shows that results were being deliberately fudged, dissenters and contrary evidence being suppressed etc,.

Right now all I see are Republican apparatchiks doing this against the climate scientists in America.

As the IPCC says:

Evidence?

We don' need no stinkin' Evidence.

(we got PROXIES)

laugh.gif laugh.gif


Steve McIntyre
Financial Post
15 February, 2005

I have spent much of the past two years analyzing and reconstructing some of the basic studies used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to support their conclusions about global warming and, in turn, to promote policies on climate change. It started as a hobby and it evolved into a full-time avocation, resulting to date in three peer-reviewed publications, which Natuurwetenschap & Techniek, the National Post and The Wall Street Journal have recently reported on.
Previously, I spent about 35 years in the mining and mineral exploration business. During the last 20 years of this, I worked in the micro-cap exploration business and have a great deal of practical experience in dealing with prospectus and securities issues. In a corporate world, there is simply no question about providing audit trails, and while they can take many different forms, they all serve the purpose of ensuring the validity of information used for investment decisions. In addition to familiar forms of financial audit trails, the splitting and retention of drill cores is a form of audit trail in the exploration business. In my opinion, the absence
of drill core at the Bre-X exploration site, if publicly known, would have alarmed investors long prior to the final demise.
The 2001 IPCC report produced findings that have guided investment decisions, which vastly exceed the sums involved in even the largest financial scandals of recent years. Since the IPCC leaned heavily on a novel approach called a “multiproxy climate study” and in particular the “hockey stick graph” of Mann et al. that purported to show extraordinary climate change, this is where I’ve focused my attention. An audit trail in this case is easily defined: the data in the form used by the authors and the computer scripts used to generate the results. In principle, these can be easily buttoned up and publicly archived.
Yet, none of the major multiproxy studies have anything remotely like a complete due diligence packages and most have none at all. The author of one of the most quoted studies [Crowley and Lowery, 2000] told me that he has “misplaced” his data. In the case of the Mann et al [1998, 1999] study, used for the IPCC’s “hockey stick” graph, Mann was initially unable to remember where the data was located, then provided inaccurate data, then provided a new version of the data which was inconsistent with previously published material, etc. In addition to the lack of due diligence packages, authors typically refuse to make their source code and data available for verification, even with a specific request.
Even after inaccuracies in a major study had been proven, when we sought source code, the original journal (Nature) and the original funding agency (the U.S. National Science Foundation) refused to intervene. In the opinion of the latter, the code is Mann’s personal commercial property. Mann recently told The Wall Street Journal that “giving them the algorithm would be giving in to the intimidation tactics that these people employ.” My first request for source code was a very simple request and could in no way be construed as “intimidation.” However, the issue neatly illustrates the disconnect.
IPCC proponents place great emphasis on the merit of articles that have been “peer reviewed.” However, peer review for climate publications, even by eminent journals such as Nature or Science, is typically a quick unpaid read by two (or sometimes three) knowledgeable persons, usually close colleagues of the author. It is unheard of for a peer reviewer to actually check the data and calculations. In 2004, I was asked by a journal (Climatic Change) to peer review an article. I asked to see the source code and supporting calculations. The editor said no one had ever asked for such things in 28 years of his editing the journal. There is nothing at the journal peer review stage in climate publications that is remotely like an audit. It’s my view that this is all the more reason why source code and data should be archived.
There is a great deal of public misconception of the forms of due diligence actually carried out by the IPCC. Although the IPCC and similar agencies have many meetings and committees (usually in nice places), they do not carry out any audit or verification activities. While insiders have long known this, it was recently admitted in written answers by the author of the hockey stick study (Michael Mann) to the U.S. Senate in the fall of 2003. “It is distinctly against the mission of the IPCC to ‘carry out independent programs,’ “ Mann wrote. Thus, if a paper has passed the cursory journal peer review process, there may not be any subsequent hurdles prior to adoption by the IPCC.
Through my own checking, I found that the calculations behind the most famous IPCC graph—the 1,000-year climate hockey stick—contained a serious calculation error that invalidates the results. In this case, the methodology had been inaccurately described in the journal publication. I also found there had been an influential but unreported alteration to a key data series, where the alteration had been disguised by a (perhaps unintentional) misrepresentation of the start date of the underlying data. The math involved is not particularly sophisticated: The errors would have been discovered long ago had there been even routine checking. It still amazes me that for all the billions of dollars being spent on the climate change industry (which I suspect dwarfs the mineral exploration industry in dollar volume), and the thousands of people working full time on this issue just in Canada, it was nobody’s job to check if the IPCC’s main piece of evidence was right.
IPCC’s inattentiveness to verification is exacerbated by the lack of independence between authors with strong vested interests in previously published intellectual positions and IPCC section authors. For example, Michael Mann had published an academic article announcing that the 1990s were the warmest decade in human history. He then became IPCC section author for the critical section surveying climate history of the last millennium, adopting the very graph used in his own paper on behalf of IPCC. For someone used to processes where prospectuses require qualifying reports from independent geologists, the lack of independence is simply breathtaking and a recipe for problems, regardless of the reasons initially prompting this strange arrangement.
It seems to me that prospectus-like disclosure must become the standard in climate science, certainly for documents like IPCC reports (which are like scientific prospectuses), but even for journals. In business, “full, true and plain disclosure” is a control on stock promoters. While it may not always be successful, it gives an enforcement mechanism. There is no such standard in climate science. In the Mann study there are important examples of pertinent adverse results, known to the authors, which were not reported. In fairness, the journals do not require authors to warrant full, true and plain disclosure and there is little guidance to such authors as to what is required reporting and what is not required.
I’ve found that scientists strongly resent any attempt to verify their results. One of the typical reactions is: Don’t check our studies, do your own study. I don’t think that businesses like being checked either, but one of the preconditions of being allowed to operate is that they are checked.
Many of the most highly paid professionals in our society—securities lawyers, auditors—earn much of their income simply by verifying other people’s results.
Businesses developed checks and balances because other peoples’ money was involved, not because businessmen are more virtuous than academics. Back when paleoclimate research had little implication outside academic seminar rooms, the lack of any adequate control procedures probably didn’t matter much.
However, now that huge public policy decisions are based, at least in part, on such studies, sophisticated procedural controls need to be developed and imposed. Climate scientists cannot expect to be the beneficiaries of public money and to influence public policy without also accepting the responsibility of providing much more adequate disclosure and due diligence.

Steve McIntyre is a mineral exploration businessman and co-author, with Ross McKitrick, of Hockey Sticks, Principal Components And Spurious Significance.
www.climateaudit.org.


Arthur
adoucette
Control?

We don' need no Stinkin Controls!

(We got the IPCC SUMMARY FOR POLICYMAKERS)


October 21, 1996
To: Editor, Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society
Dear Susan Avery, Paul Try, Richard Anthes, and Richard Hallgren:
We are frankly puzzled by your "open letter of support" of July 25, published in the Sept. 1996 issue; it was addressed to Dr. Benjamin D. Santer (convening lead author, Chapter 8 of the IPCC report "Climate Change 1995") on behalf of the executive committee of the AMS and the trustees of UCAR. We believe that the letter misrepresents the true situation. We therefore present here some facts you may not have had, and then urge you to address a more serious problem (described below)--the misuse of climate science for political purposes.
1.Your letter refers—at least three times—to the discussions surrounding the textual revisions to Chapter 8 of the IPCC report as a "scientific debate." But the debate, so far at least, has not been about science at all; rather, it has been about the legality of the changes and deletions, the purpose of the alterations, and the political uses to which the altered IPCC report has been put.

Your criticism of Dr. Frederick Seitz is misplaced. His Wall Street Journal article brought to wider attention these unannounced changes and deletions, which were made after the report had been approved, and were discovered only after the report appeared in print. It is therefore quite irrelevant whether or when he has published papers in atmospheric science or whether he was himself involved in the IPCC process; a legal expert could equally well decide the procedural issues raised by the revisions to the report.

2. In our view, the alterations to the text were both substantial and substantive. In one stroke they eliminated clauses that had been discussed over many months and agreed to by the four lead authors, 30-odd contributors, and numerous reviewers.
Here are three of the clauses that were removed from Chapter 8 ("Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes"):
· "None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed [climate] changes to the specific cause of increases in greenhouse gases."
· "No study to date has positively attributed all or part [of the climate change observed to date] to anthropogenic [man-made] causes.
· "Any claims of positive detection of significant climate change are likely to remain controversial until uncertainties in the total natural variability of the climate system are reduced.


A leading article in Nature (June 13), while dismissive of IPCC critics, had to admit that "phrases that might have been interpreted as undermining ... [IPCC] conclusions ... 'disappeared' in the revision process"

3. We note that nowhere does Dr. Seitz attack the scientific integrity of Dr. Santer. Santer has always taken full responsibility for making the actual changes, although he has not been forthcoming in revealing who instructed him to make such revisions and who approved them after they were made. He has, however, told others privately that he was asked to do so by IPCC co-chairman John Houghton.

Nature (June 13) states that the changes were made to bring Chapter 8 into conformity with the IPCC Summary for Policymakers, a political document finalized by governmental delegations in Madrid in late November 1995. You may not have seen the November 15 letter from the State Department (quoted in the Aug. 22 issue of Nature), instructing Dr. Houghton to "prevail upon" chapter authors "to modify their texts in an appropriate manner following discussion in Madrid."

4. Turning briefly to climate science, we know of at least three scientific articles that have been accepted for publication, commenting critically on two recent papers by Santer et al., which contribute in an important way to the conclusions of Chapter 8. [These two papers appeared in print (Dec. 1995 and July 1996) well after the chapter was sent out for review (May 1995).] Unfortunately, these critical assessments do not appear in the IPCC report; they will, however, be aired at a special session of the Annual Meeting of the American Geophysical Union in December 1996.
The ongoing review of the January 1991 AMS policy statement on the scientific understanding of climate change may provide an additional opportunity to examine critically not only Chapter 8 but also other chapters of the IPCC report—provided there is an opportunity for free and open discussion.

5. Finally, and most important, you should be made aware that the principal conclusion derived from Chapter 8--that "the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate"—is being misused by politicians. We draw your attention to paragraph 2 of the Ministerial Declaration (issued in Geneva on 18 July 1996), which specifically—and improperly—links this IPCC phrase about “human influence” to a temperature increase of 2 C by 2100.
But the possible existence of a discernible human influence on climate (based on the disputed evidence from Chapter 8 or other evidence) in no way validates the results from IPCC climate models that claim a climate sensitivity of between 1.5 and 4.5 C. To quote Tom Wigley, a lead author of Chapter 8: "[Temperature] pattern studies can’t pin down the climate sensitivity, we never said it did—neither in the original papers, nor in Chapter 8." Quoting from the IPCC report itself (p. 434): "To date, pattern-based studies have not been able to quantify the magnitude of a greenhouse gas or aerosol effect on climate."

The real issue then is the political misuse of the IPCC report and of climate science rather than the ongoing debate about procedure. We urge that this serious matter be energetically addressed by the AMS and by UCAR forthwith.
Sincerely,
S. Fred Singer, Ph.D.
President, The Science & Environmental Policy Project
Fairfax, VA 22030

Co-signers:
Bruce A. Boe, North Dakota Atmospheric Resource Board
Fred W. Decker, Corvallis, OR
Neil Frank, former director - National Hurricane Center
Thomas Gold, Cornell University
William Gray, Colorado State University
Henry Linden, Illinois Institute of Technology
Richard Lindzen, MIT
Pat Michaels, University of Virginia
William Nierenberg, Scripps Institute of Oceanography
William Porch, Los Alamos National Laboratory
Robert Stevenson, IAPSO
adoucette
Integrity?

We don' need no stinkin Integrity!

(we got political appointments and government funding)

laugh.gif

Dear colleagues,
After some prolonged deliberation, I have decided to withdraw from participating in the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). I am withdrawing because I have come to view the part of the IPCC to which my expertise is relevant as having become politicized. In addition, when I have raised my concerns to the IPCC leadership, their response was simply to dismiss my concerns.
With this open letter to the community, I wish to explain the basis for my decision and bring awareness to what I view as a problem in the IPCC process. The IPCC is a group of climate researchers from around the world that every few years summarize how climate is changing and how it may be altered in the future due to manmade global warming. I had served both as an author for the Observations chapter and a Reviewer for the 2nd Assessment Report in 1995 and the 3rd Assessment Report in 2001, primarily on the topic of tropical cyclones (hurricanes and typhoons). My work on hurricanes, and tropical cyclones more generally, has been widely cited by the IPCC. For the upcoming AR4, I was asked several weeks ago by the Observations chapter Lead Author — Dr. Kevin Trenberth — to provide the writeup for Atlantic hurricanes. As I had in the past, I agreed to assist the IPCC in what I thought was to be an important and politically-neutral determination of what is happening with our climate.
Shortly after Dr. Trenberth requested that I draft the Atlantic hurricane section for the AR4's Observations chapter, Dr. Trenberth participated in a press conference organized by scientists at Harvard on the topic "Experts to warn global warming likely to continue spurring more outbreaks of intense hurricane activity" along with other media interviews on the topic. The result of this media interaction was widespread coverage that directly connected the very busy 2004 Atlantic hurricane season as being caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gas warming occurring today. Listening to and reading transcripts of this press conference and other media interviews, it is apparent that Dr. Trenberth was being accurately quoted and summarized in such statements and was not being misrepresented in the media. These media sessions have the potential to result in a widespread perception that global warming has made recent hurricane activity much more severe.
I found it a bit perplexing that the participants in the Harvard press conference had come to the conclusion that global warming was impacting hurricane activity today. To my knowledge, none of the participants in that press conference had performed any research on hurricane variability, nor were they reporting on any new work in the field. All previous and current research in the area of hurricane variability has shown no reliable, long-term trend up in the frequency or intensity of tropical cyclones, either in the Atlantic or any other basin. The IPCC assessments in 1995 and 2001 also concluded that there was no global warming signal found in the hurricane record.
Moreover, the evidence is quite strong and supported by the most recent credible studies that any impact in the future from global warming upon hurricanes will likely be quite small. The latest results from the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory (Knutson and Tuleya, Journal of Climate, 2004) suggest that by around 2080, hurricanes may have winds and rainfall about 5% more intense than today. It has been proposed that even this tiny change may be an exaggeration as to what may happen by the end of the 21st Century (Michaels, Knappenberger, and Landsea, Journal of Climate, 2005, submitted).
It is beyond me why my colleagues would utilize the media to push an unsupported agenda that recent hurricane activity has been due to global warming. Given Dr. Trenberth’s role as the IPCC’s Lead Author responsible for preparing the text on hurricanes, his public statements so far outside of current scientific understanding led me to concern that it would be very difficult for the IPCC process to proceed objectively with regards to the assessment on hurricane activity. My view is that when people identify themselves as being associated with the IPCC and then make pronouncements far outside current scientific understandings that this will harm the credibility of climate change science and will in the longer term diminish our role in public policy.
My concerns go beyond the actions of Dr. Trenberth and his colleagues to how he and other IPCC officials responded to my concerns. I did caution Dr. Trenberth before the media event and provided him a summary of the current understanding within the hurricane research community. I was disappointed when the IPCC leadership dismissed my concerns when I brought up the misrepresentation of climate science while invoking the authority of the IPCC. Specifically, the IPCC leadership said that Dr. Trenberth was speaking as an individual, even though he was introduced in the press conference as an IPCC lead author. I was told that that the media was exaggerating or misrepresenting his words, even though the audio from the press conference and interview tells a different story (available on the web directly); and that Dr. Trenberth was accurately reflecting conclusions from the TAR, even though it is quite clear that the TAR stated that there was no connection between global warming and hurricane activity at this time. The IPCC leadership saw nothing to be concerned with in Dr. Trenberth's unfounded pronouncements to the media, despite his supposedly impartial important role that he must undertake as a Lead Author on the upcoming AR4.
It is certainly true that "individual scientists can do what they wish in their own rights," as one of the folks in the IPCC leadership suggested. Differing conclusions and robust debates are certainly crucial to progress in climate science. However, this case is not an honest scientific discussion conducted at a meeting of climate researchers. Instead, a scientist with an important role in the IPCC represented himself as a Lead Author for the IPCC and has used that position to promulgate to the media and general public his own opinion that the busy 2004 hurricane season was caused by global warming, which is in direct opposition to research written in the field and is counter to conclusions in the TAR. This becomes problematic when I am then asked to provide the draft about observed hurricane activity variations for the AR4 with, ironically, Dr. Trenberth as the Lead Author for this chapter. Because of Dr. Trenberth's pronouncements, the IPCC process on our assessment of these crucial extreme events in our climate system has been subverted and compromised, its neutrality lost. While no one can "tell" scientists what to say or not say (nor am I suggesting that), the IPCC did select Dr. Trenberth as a Lead Author and entrusted to him to carry out this duty in a non-biased, neutral point of view. When scientists hold press conferences and speak with the media, much care is needed not to reflect poorly upon the IPCC. It is of more than passing interest to note that Dr. Trenberth, while eager to share his views on global warming and hurricanes with the media, declined to do so at the Climate Variability and Change Conference in January where he made several presentations. Perhaps he was concerned that such speculation — though worthy in his mind of public pronouncements — would not stand up to the scrutiny of fellow climate scientists.
I personally cannot in good faith continue to contribute to a process that I view as both being motivated by pre-conceived agendas and being scientifically unsound. As the IPCC leadership has seen no wrong in Dr. Trenberth's actions and have retained him as a Lead Author for the AR4, I have decided to no longer participate in the IPCC AR4.
Sincerely,
Chris Landsea

El_Machinae
Link

I think that these two graphs do a good job showing the correlation between temp and CO2, and recent CO2 growth

User posted image

User posted image

I notice the dates of the references are over ten years old. I wonder if we have newer ice core papers?
adoucette
While there is a good correlation, the rise in CO2 LAGS the rise in temperature.

That's to be expected, since as the oceans warm they OUTGAS CO2.

Like a Coke left open on the counter.

You see, you CAN'T have it both ways.

At the START of the warming trend the CO2 levels are LOW.

At the END of the warming trend the CO2 levels are HIGH.

So OBVIOUSLY these warming/cooling patterns aren't driven by the CO2 levels, the CO2 levels are driven by the global temp.

Arthur





lengould
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 16 2006, 03:49 AM)

The current rise in temperature is CAUSING the rise in CO2, not the other way round.

Arthur

I note that current undisputably accurately measured levels of atmospheric CO2 are higher than have ever been recorded in 420,000 years of antartic ice cores. see previously referenced "Science" articles. Using your logic, doesn't that mean that current atmospheric temperatures must also be higher than ever recorded? And isn't that then "Global Warming?"

Also notable re- your timing argument. Agreed, rises of CO2 levels do appear to somewhat lag rises in temperature, but clearly NOT so with atmospheric methane levels, which almost invariably precede the rising temperatures. So, what mechanism are you proposing causes the warming, and what undisputable scientific proof do you provide for it's existence?

Seems, if you determine to hold those concerned with greenhouse gas levels to a rigid and rigourous level of scientific proof, you should also be required to provide same for your "hypothesis".
adoucette
No, because we know that ~14% of current atmospheric CO2 is of human origin.

One SHOULD expect that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere would be HIGHER in present times (a warm period) since unlike the past there is another source besides the oceans outgassing the CO2. And unlike the past, humans tend to moderate total plant growth through land use practices.

Len, you know as well as I do, the issue ISN'T the level of CO2, its the amount of climate FORCING attributed to rising CO2 levels.

The current models predict that rising CO2 will create MORE warming than an equiv. amount did in the past.

This is based upon a theorized feedback loop that would increase the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere as well.

This is just one of the things that REMAINS unproven, and is partly why there is such a great disparity in the different models outputs.

Keep in mind that virtually ALL of the scare stories are based on the SINGLE extreme case which is itself based on a complete fairy tale of a future "Scenario".

Arthur
lengould
Neat dodge attempt. What mechanism?
adoucette
QUOTE (lengould+Mar 19 2006, 01:36 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 16 2006, 03:49 AM)

The current rise in temperature is CAUSING the rise in CO2, not the other way round.

Arthur


Also notable re- your timing argument. Agreed, rises of CO2 levels do appear to somewhat lag rises in temperature, but clearly NOT so with atmospheric methane levels, which almost invariably precede the rising temperatures. So, what mechanism are you proposing causes the warming, and what undisputable scientific proof do you provide for it's existence?

Seems, if you determine to hold those concerned with greenhouse gas levels to a rigid and rigourous level of scientific proof, you should also be required to provide same for your "hypothesis".

Well, I'm not a climate scientist, so its not up to me to provide alternate hypothesis.

I don't think it is that simple that you can determine climate based on any ONE thing.

I do find though that the work on variations of Solar intensity over time seem to do a pretty good job of tracking the MAJOR Ice Ages/Warm spells, but don't necessarily account for all the gyrations.

Plate tectonics also play a role, our coldest periods have been when we have had land at both poles (now we are in between)

Apparently the various orbital cycles play a role (very complex set of differing periods of ecentricity, tilt, wobble etc)

Apparently the large Gas Giants, Jupiter and Saturn play a role (has to do with variations in the center of mass of the sun based on their orbital dynamics)

Then there are the Ocean currents and how they change over time.

Then there are volcanic activity levels and how they vary over time.

Then there are Cosmic dust bands that the entire solar system moves through as it rotates around the galaxy.

Then there are Cosmic bombardment of large rocky bodies (see dinosaurs).

Then there are changing atmospheric concentrations of the various GHGs.

Then there is the changing albedo of the planet.

Then there is the impact of high flying aircraft and the vapor trails they leave.

Then there is the impact of CFCs on the Ozone layer

Then there are the effects that man has made (like soot on the polar ice that causes a local heat gain that absorbs more heat that melts the ice quicker that lowers the albedo)

Then there is......

Arthur
lengould
Adoucette, in the huge list of prior posts, attacks the people and the processes, but not the science. No scientific refutation of the decisions made in arriving at the conclusions he states as "truths".

i) Science publishing has always to now relied on "if you dispute my results, do your own science", and I see no reason to claim that this is either unique to climate science or any evidence of error, wrongdoing or conspiracy. Try getting the data sets from any drug researcher's publications. Providing sufficient information to enable duplication by another researcher is the gold standard, and was done in this case.

ii) Where are the long lines of contrarian climate scientists clamouring for research funding from eg. bush administration for "gravey train" funding to support years of wealthy research producing contrary proof to IPCC position? Seems, if as amateur contrarians claim, scientific community is rife with amoral opportunists simply trying to gain wealth and fame by publishing, then that would make a superb opportunity. Why don't they?

iii) Related to i). It is also logical to expect scientists to discard as useless the computer code and intermediate data sets used to produce a result, PROVIDED they retain the formulae which the code implements and the initial data or description of it. There is simply no reason to archive 10 or 100 pages of computer code with all it's presentation layers, data i/o functions, etc. etc. when none of that has any relevance to the perhaps 3 or 5 lines of code which actually implement the published formulae. That whole discussion in "auditing" and "business rules" is nonsense. If you think there is and error, implementing the formulae yourself and producing contrary results is the way to prove it. All that rest is nonsense.
Torrin
Yay , let's ignore science so we can push are political agenda and deliver choking smut into the air while watching *** because we are too aftraid to step outside. Sounds fun to some but I'll pass, as I actually care about the world outside my bathroom. Do they want to be sucking in carpet fumes all day?
The article doesn't make allot of sense. If water is the main culprit then it would just act as a multiplier after minor ice melt from air pollution. If this has happened, and has been proven to cause minor global warming, then it is obviously a sister or linked to massive global warming due to water vapor. A middle school student could figure that out.
Just another government pansy afraid of going outside and getting some fresh air and exercise.

Why is it that some people call others chicken little and then when Government-God speaks it's as good as gold. What is government if only a non-entity ruling elite?
Just shows how really delicate our earth is and that it's the only one. So if we are not Gods then let's quit acting like them and stop screwing up the planet before we are all dead and Florida is under water. The argument between fear and reality is boring and stupid. If people are a true conservationists then act like it. Also if you don't agree with the statements then say which and don't stand there and call people chicken little. The Chicken little story is true but why does it relate to only people you don't agree with?

It's been stated that we still do have time, about ten years, to lower emissions and prevent to big disastor with ocean rise + it's healthy anyway. Lets chip in instead of scoffing. Then after that if we want to get the water out of the air and refreeze it somehow we can do that next but lowering emissions if the first step. Please don't interfere with the renewable-energy initiative as it's very exciting and best of all cheep and gets us out of the pockets of others.
Joe Thorpe
There's some more analysis of the theory at LogicTutorial.com. It notes that the new theory explains some things the old one doesn't, but doesn't take a side. You'll have to look down a bit, click on "Occam and the Environment" and then go down a bit - or just Ctrl-F and find "silver cloud".

The article there does speculate that if this theory is true, a large high-latitude nuclear test, say of ABM systems, might have REALLY cooked our goose back in the seventies. Yikes.
adoucette
Actually, I've BEEN attacking the SCIENCE.

Nature printed a CORRECTION to M. Mann's work after it was successfully challenged by McIntyre and McKitrick. His data was FLAWED and his algorithm was FLAWED.

David Henderson challenged the validity of the economic assumptions which were the basis for the scenarios which generate the inflated estimates of future warming.

Spenser and Christy have challenged the SST temperatures and they were changed.

It was because of these challenges that they now are STARTING to factor in Urban Heat Island effect.

Fred Singer and Chris Landsea challenged the promotion of Global Warming "Truths" which did not agree with the Science.

What you fail to realize is that climate is far too complex of a system to model accurately for long periods. The ACTUAL climate is dependent on variations of solar energy, orbital cycles, ocean currents, geoloic events, geothermal energy etc etc to be arbitrarily reduced to a process driven by a single cause.

Arthur
MDT
The one thing I agree with is the importance of water with respect to weather. It is the condensation of water that provides much of the energy for weather. If the earth's atmosphere was only nitrogen and oxygen gas without water, there would be no low pressure circulations on the earth, because there would be no condensation of water.

The problem with water being a green house gas is that it creates the problem of the chicken and the egg. As the surface temperature rises, more water is contained in the atmosphere since warm air can hold more moisture. This should create an escalation until steady state is reached if the theory is true. We should not go through the observed cooling cycles but should reach a steady warmer temperature.

If CO2 or NOx are the greenhouse gases, their heating affect will increase the average moisture content within the atmosphere. These gases will react with the increasing concentration of atmospheric water to produce non gaseous aqueous acids. This will scrub them from the air, allowing the temperature to eventually fall. In other words, green house gases are self correcting due to their connection to water.

The current greenhouse gas theory creates the problem of why warming trends appeared before industrialization. This may be due to water. If the moisture content of the atmosphere gets lower due to cooling, one begins to get longer droughts. The natural result are bigger forest fires to increase the greenhouse gases, like CO2, allowing the temperature to rise and the moisture content of the atmosphere to increase. The higher moisture make new and maybe improved plants, to replace the combusted oxygen during the forest fires, and gradually scrubs out the greenhouse gases for another cooling cycle.

Personally I don't worry about greenhouse gases because they are self correcting. Humans interaction may speed up the frequency of these cycles. But water will save the day.
adoucette
Climate is considerably more complex then Weather.

Weather deals with how the prevailing seasonal highs and lows will interact over a relatively short time horizon.

Climate deals with ALL of the intrinsic factors that affect the Globe, some little, some not so little, some with positive feedback, some with negative feedback, some cyclic, some random. Many we know about and some we don't. Some we know a lot about and many we don't.

I'm always surprised when people believe the Climate Predictions for the next 100 years when they don't have any faith in weather forcasts more than a few days out.

They are essentially done with the same models.

Well, except that the global models have many more variables and are require predictions of how society will evolve as well.

Go back 100 years, anyone think the predictions made in 1,900 about the year 2,000 panned out?

Anyone think the PACE of change is SLOWING down?

Arthur
lengould
QUOTE (MDT+Mar 19 2006, 08:55 PM)
Personally I don't worry about greenhouse gases because they are self correcting. Humans interaction may speed up the frequency of these cycles. But water will save the day.

Sheeh. C'mon. This is a SCIENCE forum.
Good Elf
Hi All,

I think that the argument is into the fine details and really it is about if there is a Greenhouse Effect at all. I think most would agree that if the concept of a Greenhouse Effect is accepted in principle and greenhouse gasses are increasing then "in the fullness of time" global temperatures will increase (other factors being equal). This would mean that there may be something to the fact that average global yearly temperatures have not been higher for over a thousand years and in such a short time too. Now... will these keep going up with increasing concentrations of greenhouse gasses or not?

Cheers
adoucette
I don't think there has ever been a debate about the existance of a "Greenhouse" effect.

Problem is, there is a Greenhouse effect even in the middle of an Ice Age or Interstitial.

You see, that's what most people seem to forget.

We are living in the MIDDLE OF AN ICE AGE.

I know, it doesn't SEEM like we are living in an ICE AGE, but we are.