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Empress Palpatine
I read this just now, and don't know what to think. They have been using a device for quite some time to detect gravitational waves, but they so far have found none. Then the article said:

"If Advanced LIGO doesn't see gravitational waves I think people will be very surprised," Mandic told SPACE.com. "It is likely such a situation would require revision of General Relativity."

Huh ohmy.gif

MSNBC has joined those who question General Relativity?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32482651/ns/te..._science-space/

What is everybody's take on it here?
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Aug 20 2009, 02:45 AM)
I read this just now, and don't know what to think.  They have been using a device for quite some time to detect gravitational waves, but they so far have found none.  Then the article said:

"If Advanced LIGO doesn't see gravitational waves I think people will be very surprised," Mandic told SPACE.com. "It is likely such a situation would require revision of General Relativity."

Huh  ohmy.gif

MSNBC has joined those who question General Relativity?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32482651/ns/te..._science-space/

What is everybody's take on it here?


Hi Empress;
Ha Ha lol...Its amazing how folks can draw such ridiculous conclusions.

In reality, the lack of GW detection by LIGO does NOT mean General Relativity is flawed ; it means the LIGO METHOD OF DETECTION is flawed.

LIGO has been tweaked many times to improve 'sensitivity", etc. and I would not be surprised at all if the next generation of "improvements" results is zero detection.....

Lunar
Horta
Hay, hold the bus on this one. Remember the poll taken on Physorg on which proposed future science project we favored? well one of them was called LISA which was to be built in 2020 to measure gravitational waves to further prove Relativity. It is not even built yet. It was an earlier article put out by MSNBC. Now they think we have very short memories. How can they tell us that Relativity is bunk based on something not yet built. Did they "time travel"?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30871621/?pg=4...ScienceProjects

The above link shows their earlier article where MSNBC says that it is not yet built. I am always suspicious about people too quick to throw Einstein out the window. I hope this NEVER happen because the day Relativity is thrown in the trash with Pluto is the day America is run by the Christian Taliban.

One more point to the best of my understanding is; When a gravity wave is made by a big event in space if you are too far away from the epicenter it dissipates rapidly like a Tsunami. If a Tsunami happens in Japan or the Philippians and you live in California you probably are not going to notice the waves because you are too far away. If something happened near the center of the Milky Way galaxy, we on earth will not feel a thing or our instruments will not pick up the signal due to the distances.
Empress Palpatine
True enough, that older MSNBC article said they were going to build a much better one. They jumped the gun on this one, I think. It is not over until the fat lady sings.

Oh yeah...all hail Pluto the Planet! biggrin.gif

(message from the militant wing of the Pluto Liberation Front! ph34r.gif
Montec
Hello Empress Palpatine

Check out this information. Gravity waves?

smile.gif
AlexG
QUOTE (Montec+Aug 20 2009, 01:08 PM)
Hello Empress Palpatine

Check out this information. Gravity waves?

smile.gif

The authors seem to be arguing against a gravitational phenomena.

QUOTE
A possible “gravitational” interpretation of the observed radiation is suggested by the proportionality of the force to the target mass, but is in strong contrast with the usual relationship between any gravitational field and its source. According to Einstein equations and General Relativity, only the matter-energy content of the source determines the gravitational field generated by it, not its particular state (like, for instance, presence or absence of superconductivity). In our case, even in the presence of vigorous discharges, the energy-momentum content of the apparatus is far too small, from the gravitational point of view, to generate observable effects.
Enthalpy
From the diminishing orbital period of a pair of pulsars, radiation of gravitation waves was inferred. I consider that a theory denying gravitation waves should then propose an other explanation to this observation, which won't be an easy task.

Distance too big: don't suppose specialists are stupid. This is certainly not the most difficult part in building Ligo and others.

Waves impossible to detect this way? Maybe. I've no opinion, for I don't understand the subject any good.

http://arxiv.org/vc/physics/papers/0209/0209051v1.pdf looks like a well-written fake article. Something like personal paragraphs with very naive words, mixed with copy-paste science. Worse, 2MV across 1m at 1Pa don't exist. But I'm hopefully wrong.
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Enthalpy+Aug 20 2009, 11:26 PM)
From the diminishing orbital period of a pair of pulsars, radiation of gravitation waves was inferred. I consider that a theory denying gravitation waves should then propose an other explanation to this observation, which won't be an easy task.

Distance too big: don't suppose specialists are stupid. This is certainly not the most difficult part in building Ligo and others.

Waves impossible to detect this way? Maybe. I've no opinion, for I don't understand the subject any good.

http://arxiv.org/vc/physics/papers/0209/0209051v1.pdf looks like a well-written fake article. Something like personal paragraphs with very naive words, mixed with copy-paste science. Worse, 2MV across 1m at 1Pa don't exist. But I'm hopefully wrong.


Thanks Montec (and Alex and enthalpy) for bringing up the Modonese report.... the report.... I've been "sitting" on it for several years...hoping someone would finally want to discuss its implications.

Ist, I agree with you Enthalpy, Gen Relativity has too much direct evidence and Gravitational waves have too much indirect evidence to dismiss simply because LIGO is deficient.

Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that the Gen Relativistic form of GW's (spin-2 octapolar) are not exclusive... meaning there is the possibility, for example of spin 1 GW's of other forms.....and the Modonese report is an example of that possibility.

Enthalpy...
I personally think enough of Modonese reputation to trust he is being totally forthright in these experimental results...and frankly, I am very surprised the scientific community and especially the media has not jumped in on this, considering the tremendous implications. I guess they've been "burned" by the Podkletnov publicity" before and are afraid to touch it.

However, it contains very valid and extrodinary science worth investigation.

Lunar cool.gif
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 20 2009, 06:19 PM)
The authors seem to be arguing against a gravitational phenomena.


Alex,
Theyare not 'arguing against gravitational phenomena".

They are merely stating that what they observe here experimentally IS inertial / gravitational, but doesn't conform to the usual Gen relativitistic expectation.

Your first line in your quote from their report makes that clear..
" A possible 'graviational" interpretation of the observed radiation is suggested by the PROPORTIONALITY of THE FORCE TO THE TARGET MASS..."... meaning Force = mass X acceleration.

...but the gravitational aspect doesn't conforn to Gen Rel.....

In Other words, it doesn't it doesn't conforn to the EQUIVALENCE PRINCIPLE.
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (Montec+Aug 20 2009, 02:08 PM)
Hello Empress Palpatine

Check out this information. Gravity waves?

smile.gif

I am reading it, but am not sure what it has to do with gravity. It sounds very much like one of those later devices proposed by Nikola Tesla. The Russians did get certain information from him, and rumors abound as to exactly what.

It sounds like a very high powered electrical device.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UbncXUq254&feature=related
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Aug 21 2009, 03:54 AM)
I am reading it, but am not sure what it has to do with gravity. It sounds very much like one of those later devices proposed by Nikola Tesla. The Russians did get certain information from him, and rumors abound as to exactly what.

It sounds like a very high powered electrical device.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UbncXUq254&feature=related

Yes, I think you are reading it correctly Empress. It requires a very high voltage discharge.

The reason it has gravitational significance is :
1. It is similar to the original Podletnov rotating superconductor experiment which used high voltage...and obtained anomalous gravitational results.
(BTW, that experiment was never replicated , especially since no one who tried to replicate ever used high voltage.)

2. The single discharge from a high voltage SC electrode seems to replicate a gravitational "impulse" like a gravitational wave, except it is not quadrupolar....and it is MUCH greater in strength than would be expected from a Gen Relativistic calculation of its mass energy.

Lunar biggrin.gif
AlexG
QUOTE
" A possible 'graviational" interpretation of the observed radiation is suggested by the PROPORTIONALITY of THE FORCE TO THE TARGET MASS..."...


Read the whole report. They go on to say in their conclusions that not only do their observed results not conform to relativity (if the effect is gravitational) , but that the magnitude of any possible gravitational effect is so far smaller than what they've measured as to be indetectable.

They raise the possiblity of a gravitational effect and then dismiss that possiblity.
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Lunarlanding+Aug 21 2009, 01:30 AM)
....

CORRECTION IN MY LAST POST TO ENTHALPY:

I didn't mean "Octipolar" in this sentence...
It should read "QUADRUPOLAR"...
Here's the corrected quote from my previous post to you...

"Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that the Gen Relativistic form of GW's (spin-2 quadrupolar) are not exclusive... meaning there is the possibility, for example of spin 1 GW's of other forms.....and the Modonese report is an example of that possibility."

Sorry for the typo...

Lunar biggrin.gif
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (Lunarlanding+Aug 20 2009, 09:43 PM)
Alex,
Theyare not 'arguing against gravitational phenomena".

They are merely stating that what they observe here experimentally IS inertial / gravitational, but doesn't conform to the usual Gen relativitistic expectation.

Your first line in your quote from their report makes that clear..
" A possible 'graviational" interpretation of the observed radiation is suggested by the PROPORTIONALITY of THE FORCE TO THE TARGET MASS..."... meaning Force = mass X acceleration.

...but the gravitational aspect doesn't conforn to Gen Rel.....

In Other words, it doesn't it doesn't conforn to the EQUIVALENCE PRINCIPLE.

To me, the references to gravity were not clear. It sounded like the thing was mostly electromagnetic, and gravity plays a small role if at all. That is the general impression I got even though it was hard reading all that very technical stuff. I wish they said what this device was actually used for in a real world sense.

Tesla was known to make vacuums or semi vacuums in tubes and shoot electricity through them. What the electricity did, like the color and so on, had to do with what sort of vacuum or gas he put in the tube. This sounds like a souped up version of something like that, like one of his rumored particle beam weapons. This thing sounds like the experimental beginnings of something like that. Enthralpy says the article is a fake. I would be curious where it came from. When Tesla died, the U.S. government took all his papers and kept them for a time before they gave them to the Serbians, who apparently have housed some of them in the Tesla Museum in that country. The film clip I posted above claims that Tesla gave parts of his beam weapons to several countries including Russia. He expected them to collaborate (as no single country got all the info). This article looks like one of the pieces. Since the end of the cold war, his stuff has a way of turning up.

As to gravitational waves, I don't think Tesla ever thought of them because he did not accept relativity (at least not right away); so that was not his interest; so I don't know how this article relates to gravitational waves exactly.

(Have you ever just had a feeling about something but could not explain it exactly. I'd have to find a technically knowledgeable Tesla expert to know for sure if that article relates to Tesla. I cannot understand enough of it to be absolutely sure).
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 21 2009, 04:04 AM)

Read the whole report.  They  go on to say in their conclusions that not only do  their observed results not conform to relativity (if the effect is gravitational) , but that the magnitude of any possible gravitational effect is so far smaller than what they've measured as to be indetectable.



Alex;
I have read the report....many times over the last several years . I think you are still mis-interpreting what they are saying...or maybe I am misunderstanding what YOU are trying to say...since you didn't put a refernece to my quote or their quote..

I think you are merely repeating what I said about the lack of conformity to equivalence Principle...in effect , that is WHY the gravitational effect is so small....inertial and gravitational mass ARE NOT EQUIVALENTin their experimental results...that is the underlying implication for anyone who understands the physical results...PL;ease read my post to Empress . I think you will understand that better...she had a good question.

PS.
Please always put the referenced quote before trying to repeat what they are saying....so everyone can get the correct conclusion....and so others know what you are referring to and can comment on what you are referring to.

Lunar.
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (Lunarlanding+Aug 21 2009, 12:03 AM)
Yes, I think you are reading it correctly Empress. It requires a very high voltage discharge.

The reason it has gravitational significance is :
1. It is similar to the original Podletnov rotating superconductor experiment which used high voltage...and obtained anomalous gravitational results.
(BTW, that experiment was never replicated , especially since no one who tried to replicate ever used high voltage.)

2. The single discharge from a high voltage SC electrode seems to replicate a gravitational "impulse" like a gravitational wave, except it is not quadrupolar....and it is MUCH greater in strength than would be expected from a Gen Relativistic calculation of its mass energy.

Lunar biggrin.gif

Thanks, that does make it more clear.
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Aug 21 2009, 04:25 AM)
To me, the references to gravity were not clear.  It sounded like the thing was mostly electromagnetic, and gravity plays a small role if at all.  That is the general impression I got even though it was hard reading all that very technical stuff.  I wish they said what this device was actually used for in a real world sense.



You are correct, it is basically electromagnetic, ...However, the EFFECT is inertial...which carries gravitational inferences...with respect to Gravitational WAVES....which carry MOMENTUM.

Even though the initiation of the effect comes from an electromagnetic interaction , high voltage thru a SC, the EFFECT is clearly NOT electromagnetic, but INERTIAL.... .....It displays itself as inertial MOMENTUM upon test masses.

It is as if an inertial Pulse (which basically could be considered a type of 'gravitational wave') is sent thru the vacuum and has the inertial effect of placing a FORCE upon MASS in accordance with F = ma.

The test masses some distance away from the discharge unit (at least in later tests) were shielded from any electromagnetic interactions .

Furthermore, the magnitude of the effect appears NOT to fall off with distance from the source. ohmy.gif
(sort of inertial laser type coherence)....

Lunar cool.gif
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Aug 21 2009, 04:28 AM)
Thanks, that does make it more clear.


You're welcome..you had a good question....

....
AlexG
QUOTE
It is as if an inertial Pulse (which basically could be considered a type of 'gravitational wave')


An inertial pulse is not a gravitational wave.

Furthermore, gravitational effects fall off with the square of the distance. The fact that the observed effect does not follow the inverse square law shows that the effect, whatever it is, is not gravitational
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 21 2009, 05:07 AM)

An inertial pulse is not a gravitational wave. 

Furthermore, gravitational effects fall off with the square of the distance.  The fact that the observed effect does not follow the inverse square law shows that the effect, whatever it is, is not gravitational


Read my last post please, alex...you seem to continue to make my points after I post them..

First as I said before...this is not a General Relativistic Gravitational wave...

Gravitational waves DO CARRY MOMENTUM and that is what characterizes this effect.. .......and thus it can be considered a type of gravitational wave.....

Lets not fight about semantics...which seem to be where you are headed.

As I said before in my last post, the effect does NOT fall off with distance ....

Good night.

tongue.gif
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (Lunarlanding+Aug 21 2009, 12:36 AM)

You are correct, it is basically electromagnetic, ...However, the EFFECT is inertial...which carries gravitational inferences...with respect to Gravitational WAVES....which carry MOMENTUM.

Even though the initiation of the effect comes from an electromagnetic interaction , high voltage thru a SC, the EFFECT is clearly NOT electromagnetic, but INERTIAL.... .....It displays itself as inertial MOMENTUM upon test masses.

It is as if an inertial Pulse (which basically could be considered a type of 'gravitational wave') is sent thru the vacuum and has the inertial effect of placing a FORCE upon MASS in accordance with F = ma.

The test masses some distance away from the discharge unit (at least in later tests) were shielded from any electromagnetic interactions .

Furthermore, the magnitude of the effect appears NOT to fall off with distance from the source. ohmy.gif
(sort of inertial laser type coherence)....

Lunar cool.gif

Inertial...that gives to my mind a bit of a difference; it reminds me of this ship Carl Sagan described:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md7e1uhOohM...330638D&index=3

It has some sort of "inertial plate" which makes it go. Is this the sort of inertia you had in mind?
AlexG
QUOTE
Lets not fight about semantics...which seem to be where yoyu are headed.


First of all, the definition of terms being used is not an issue of semantics. Semantics applies in literature and philosophy, not in science. The meaning of terms being used is crucial. Which is why the real language of physics is mathematics.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Lets not fight about semantics...which seem to be where yoyu are headed.


First of all, the definition of terms being used is not an issue of semantics. Semantics applies in literature and philosophy, not in science. The meaning of terms being used is crucial. Which is why the real language of physics is mathematics.

As I said before in my last post, the effect does NOT fall off with distance ....


Yes you did. Which shows that the effect is not only not a relativistic gravitational effect, but it's not a Newtonian gravitational effect (the inverse square relationship is Newtonian). So unless you're postulating a totally new realm of force and labeling it 'gravitational', it's not.

Good night
Lunarlanding
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Aug 21 2009, 05:14 AM)
Inertial...that gives to my mind a bit of a difference; it reminds me of this ship Carl Sagan described:

...

It has some sort of "inertial plate" which makes it go.  Is this the sort of inertia you had in mind?




I'll have to look at it when I have more time, Empress...

What I have in mind when I use the term "inertial" is the usual physics sense...namely, a Force cause inertial matter (mass) to accelerate. F = ma.
IOW, whatever the force is, it imparts inertial force that carries mometum..and it is not electromagnetic....so we could consider it a type of gravity wave....but it doesn't fall off measureably with distance.

However, now that you brought it up... if I'm not mistaken, this Modonese device "seems" to have no 'inertial back-reaction" which may be significant. IOW, no back reaction...

To bed for now....you guys wear me out. Nice talking to you.
Lunar
Empress Palpatine
Ah, it is late where I am too, but just one more thought I have. biggrin.gif

A gravity wave seems to happen if there is some sort of drastic event or disturbance out in space as is depicted here (halfway through clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-p8yZYxNGc

Here it is shown what sort of wave would happen if the sun suddenly vanished. The wave is a disturbance of the space time fabric. The only thing I wonder is, how far do such waves go? It would seem they go farther than one normally feels gravity from just a plain old large object in space that is doing nothing drastic (like the gravity of the sun as it just is merely there).

More on gravitational waves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1tkM_f5B9s

To all a good night. biggrin.gif
Montec
Hello AlexG

It is true that the gravitational force from a sphere or point source will "fall off" at an inverse square strength curve. But what does the strength curve look like from a large number of points in a line? Or a plane for that matter?

Can you apply the same math used for static charge to gravity?

To me the observed flat rotation curve seen in disk galaxies seems to imply that gravity "falls off" at a 1/r function when "seeing" the galaxy edgewise.

Mythical "dark matter" would not be needed to explain the observed flat rotation curve.

smile.gif
AlexG
QUOTE
But what does the strength curve look like from a large number of points in a line? Or a plane for that matter?


The same. Inverse square.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
But what does the strength curve look like from a large number of points in a line? Or a plane for that matter?


The same. Inverse square.

Can you apply the same math used for static charge to gravity?


No.
Jossarian
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Aug 20 2009, 02:45 AM)
"If Advanced LIGO doesn't see gravitational waves I think people will be very surprised," Mandic told SPACE.com. "It is likely such a situation would require revision of General Relativity."

Huh  ohmy.gif

MSNBC has joined those who question General Relativity?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32482651/ns/te..._science-space/

Hi,

You mentioned two possibilities already:
1. General Relativity is wrong
2. LIGO measurement method is wrong

I think that there is also THIRD case which can explain this.
LIGO current sensitivity level is enough to find evidence for gravitational waves created by the Big Bang. If they doesn't detect them with current amplitude threshold and will succeed with Advanced LIGO detecting weaker waves created by more mundane events like supernova collapse or black holes collisions then this might be proof that BIG BANG doesn't happened.

Here is Caltech press release on this subject.

/Joss
Jossarian
Caltech Paper: Direct searches for a cosmological stochastic gravitational wave background.

/Joss
Trout
QUOTE (Jossarian+Aug 21 2009, 05:29 PM)
If they doesn't detect them with current amplitude threshold and will succeed with Advanced LIGO detecting weaker waves created by more mundane events like supernova collapse or black holes collisions then this might be proof that BIG BANG doesn't happened.

Here is Caltech press release on this subject.

/Joss

No, it doesn't follow logically. There is already ample proof of BB via the CMBR observations.
Jossarian
QUOTE (Trout+Aug 21 2009, 05:49 PM)
No, it doesn't follow logically. There is already ample proof of BB via the CMBR observations.

Well, so why Lambda-CDM model was created?

Love this snippet:
QUOTE
However, ΛCDM is a model. Cosmologists anticipate that all of these assumptions will not be borne out exactly, after more is learned about the applicable fundamental physics. In particular, cosmic inflation predicts spatial curvature at the level of 10−4 to 10−5.
Moreover, ΛCDM says nothing about the fundamental physical origin of dark matter, dark energy and the nearly scale-invariant spectrum of primordial curvature perturbations: in that sense, it is merely a useful parameterization of ignorance.


The Big Bang theory seems to be flawed terribly, even Edwin Hubble was very skeptic about this when all that mess started. Other possible CMBR explanations exists already which doesn't need constructs like Dark Matter, Dark Energy or similar magic.

For example please consider that lambda in ΛCDM model is a negative gravity
pressure permeating whole Universe, often called quintessence (Einstein called it cosmological constant). Isn't such type of field enough to cause so called
gravitational redshift? Why we still need expanding Universe to explain far galaxies redshift if already measured gravity effects are explaining that?

/Joss
Trout
QUOTE (Jossarian+Aug 21 2009, 06:39 PM)
Well, so why Lambda-CDM model was created?


Lambda-CDM agrees with BB, dumbotron.
uaafanblog
QUOTE (Trout+Oct 13 2009, 09:46 PM)
Lambda-CDM agrees with BB, dumbotron.

LOL.

Far be it for me to test your patience with people who question "redshift measurements" but just for other readers ... I wanted to state that there is a small community of non-dumbotrons who have legitimate questions about the interpretations.

That certainly doesn't mean they're right and the BBTers are wrong. BBT adherents have a vast wealth of data supporting their conclusions. But simply questioning it doesn't make one a dumbotron. IIRC Niels Bohr called Richard Feynman an idiot when he was first confronted with Feynman's ideas.

Fred Hoyle RuLEz!

wink.gif

Proceed with calling me a worthless twat now! cool.gif
Trout
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Oct 14 2009, 02:51 AM)
BBT adherents have a vast wealth of data supporting their conclusions.  But simply questioning it doesn't make one a dumbotron.

What makes Jossarian a dumbotron is that he's trying to cite Lambda-CDM as proof against BB. Lambda_CDM agrees with BB.
uaafanblog
QUOTE (Trout+Oct 14 2009, 04:03 AM)
What makes Jossarian a dumbotron is that he's trying to cite Lambda-CDM as proof against BB. Lambda_CDM agrees with BB.

Woohoo ... I'm not a worthless twat?

To be fair, the latter context he provided was a proposition to consider "quintessence" in the Lambda-CDM model to be (in his words) "negative gravity" and then questioned whether that might account for the observed redshift. I have had enough redshift conversations here to know that I've got no chance to argue for a reconsideration of our current redshift understanding. I continue to hope that someone joins here that is capable of putting forth a decent argument for that reconsideration.

BBT is ONE interpretation of a complex data set. If aspects of that data set are misinterpreted by small factors the larger scale processes could have been much different than we currently believe. If there are pieces missing from the data set (perhaps like um ... say ... the existence of an electrostatic mesh ... as in the "aether" of old) then those interpretations could be greatly in error.

I'm not close to science and physics but even at the level of involvement of a noob, I sense a growing movement to better explain the universe as compared to the BBT. Plasma physics might have something to say ... some QED variant could arise and enlighten us ... or some currently unknown Einstein could make one of those occasional leaps in understanding. Nothing but my simple intuition tells me something like this is likely to happen.
Jossarian
QUOTE (Trout+Oct 13 2009, 09:46 PM)
Lambda-CDM agrees with BB, dumbotron.

Sure. Lambda-CDM agrees with BBT but only after adding weird stuff like Dark Matter and Dark Energy. No one can explain these at the moment and due to that ALL POSSIBLE answers have to be considered. In order to make statement that Lambda-CDM agrees with BB, both Dark Matter and Dark Energy have to be explained and understood first.
Maybe we need a paradigm shift here?

Strange thing for me is that Dark Energy is used to explain accelerating expansion of Universe but it is completely omitted when explaining red shift measurements of far objects. Why? Please enlighten me.

Maybe my English isn't perfect but at least I'm not trying to insult anyone here including you. Do you think it makes you to sound smarter? Stop trolling please.

History of science is full of examples of people who at some moment of time were convinced that they know something for sure. People with opinions like: "machines heavier then air cannot fly".
Now we can only laugh at them. It was lack of modesty which made them fools. Are you going to be such fool?
Trout
QUOTE (Jossarian+Oct 15 2009, 12:28 AM)
Sure. Lambda-CDM agrees with BBT

...meaning that you cannot use it as an argument against BBT as you tried in your earlier post, lambda CDM is an explanation for BBT. Why is so difficult for you to understand your mistake?
Trout
QUOTE (Jossarian+Aug 21 2009, 05:29 PM)
then this might be proof that BIG BANG doesn't happened.


Ummm, nope. Try again, better luck next time.
Jossarian
QUOTE (Trout+Oct 15 2009, 12:54 AM)
...meaning that you cannot use it as an argument against BBT as you tried in your earlier post, lambda CDM is an explanation for BBT. Why is so difficult for you to understand your mistake?


Lamba-CDM isn't explaining anything. It's a mathematical model intended to be in agreement with observed phenomena. Unfortunately for BBT this model assumes that 95% of our Universe is exotic (Dark Matter 25% + Dark Energy 70%).
Well. What BBT can say about these 95%?
Isn't conformity between L-CDM and BBT rather low? This is why I think BBT is seriously flawed at least.

I've asked such question:
QUOTE
Dark Energy is used to explain accelerating expansion of Universe but it is completely omitted when explaining red shift measurements of far objects. Why? Please enlighten me.

Could you answer it please? About 70% of our Universe matter/energy is a stuff called Dark Energy due to which Universe expansion is accelerating. It is hard to believe that such powerful and omnipresent gravity-like force doesn't impacts redshifts at all.
I'm only one who see that problem? It is obvious that photons traveling vast intergalactic distances have to work against this kind of field and in result have to lose some of it's energy (redshifting). Is my understanding of this subject wrong? Please point out where then.
AlphaNumeric
I think it's worth pointing out that while the Einstein Field Equations are often quoted as G_ab = 8 pi T_ab infact if you do the general derivation you find its possible to add in a term to the G_ab side which does not alter the conservation equation of G_ab;b = 0. This term is L g_ab, where L is Lambda (no LaTeX support and no charmap due to Linux...) and so the fully general EFEs are G_ab + L g_ab = 8 pi T_ab.

Solving this for a homogeneous and isotropic space-time you end up with the FRW metric which includes L in some way. And infact the inclusion of L is something which Einstein was aware of from the start and we now know from such things as string theory constructions that a space-time with L = 0 is fantastically hard to construct from general principles, you're almost infinitely more likely to have a space where L is not zero.

But observations, initially, said it was and that lead to Einstein's 'Greatest Blunder' by him saying "Fair enough, L=0". More accurate epxeirments now say it isn't but its damn close.

So infact, L-CDM and the BBT are actually in better agreement on theoretical grounds, it was only that in the 30s our experiments said "L is so close to 0 we think it is 0".

Dark matter and the BBT are closely linked too, infact the CMB signature requires dark matter, a material which doesn't interact with photons other than through gravity. Dark matter initially arise to explaiin galaxy rotations but now the CMB is evidence for it too.

If you construct the FRW metric (which is a homework exercise for any 3rd year physicist) then you have terms which are 'normal matter' and dark energy. By the Principle of Totality if these things could be non-zero then you should include them in your analysis to check they aren't just really really small. If you do this and then you consider how the metric says such quantities evolve over time as expansion occurs you get the same results as we see in observations. Considerable work exists in the area of 'inflaton moduli' in supergravity and string theory (my supervisor does precisely this) which aims at building a string theory explaination for how and when inflation occurs (compared to just normal expansion).

So infact the conformity between the theoretical construction of a space with normal matter, dark matter and dark energy matches a lot of the things we see in the universe and is intertwined with the BBT.

You can take into account the effect increasing or decreasing expansion has on redshifting with ease using the FRW metric. It has a scale factor a(t) in it, with the Hubble constant being H(t) = a'(t)/a(t). We now know H isn't really constant but allowing for H'(t) being non-zero is little more than a homework exercise if you've seen how to do the behaviour of the length scale for the H = constant case. Hell, I actually did precisely that for a 3rd year computing project (computing varying redshift effects on quasar emissions) and a bit in my 1st year of a PhD (including inflaton behaviour), it is well within the grasp of anyone competant at PDEs and knows a little about programming in C or Mathematica.

The tiny value of L means that the varying of redshift over time is not going to change results in a huge way and it was the tiny tiny variation in results which made us realise L is non-zero. Yes, you're right to question "Does this change redshift results?" but to then instantly leap to "Since it obviously does I don't trust the results" is flawed as you ignore how much it changes things.
uaafanblog
Alpha:
So then it follows that the presence of dark matter effectively has zero effect on redshift. I can see that. But are there other (perhaps not imagined) states that could mimic the data that points us to this dark matter? More specifically, could dark matter/energy be some exotic non-massless aether (sorry ... I do hate that word). I intuit an electrostatic-mesh or sorts that (for lack of an educated word) "carries" inertia and gravity ... I would grant that such a mesh would necessarily have to adhere to observed data.

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