Would it be at all possible to have a small isolated time dilated area on earth, slowing time down close to a stop maybe due to gravity well or something similar? But have the occupants inside the time dilation, not physically feel the effects?
Thank you.
Not one of any magnitude. Sensitive experiments can detect the time dilation of being in an upper versus a lower floor. So the deepest mines on Earth are something of an isolated area with excess gravitational time dilation.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/YefimCavalier.shtml
Even at a depth of 3500 meters, the time dilation would only amount to about 1 millisecond over an entire human lifespan.
If you had exotic materials, you could build a sizeable gravity well on the surface of the earth, but long before you reach the 1% time dilation stage, your gravity room would sink to the center of the earth.
If you had exotic materials in space, you could build a super dense space station. Tidal forces would kill you, but you might be able to build an accurate clock which still worked.
Much cheaper would be to build a balloon to sit in Jupiter's upper atmosphere, but then the time dilation effect would still be less than 1 second over the whole human lifespan.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/YefimCavalier.shtml
Even at a depth of 3500 meters, the time dilation would only amount to about 1 millisecond over an entire human lifespan.
If you had exotic materials, you could build a sizeable gravity well on the surface of the earth, but long before you reach the 1% time dilation stage, your gravity room would sink to the center of the earth.
If you had exotic materials in space, you could build a super dense space station. Tidal forces would kill you, but you might be able to build an accurate clock which still worked.
Much cheaper would be to build a balloon to sit in Jupiter's upper atmosphere, but then the time dilation effect would still be less than 1 second over the whole human lifespan.
So there would be no possible way, what so ever, to exponentially slow time down in a isolated spot on earth?
You mean by a factor of 10, 100, or 1000? No.
GR suggests that 1.0000000000005 is possible in the deepest mines on Earth. Some 21st century solution might make 1.00000000001 possible, but 1.01 is clearly not possible on the Earth's surface.
GR suggests that 1.0000000000005 is possible in the deepest mines on Earth. Some 21st century solution might make 1.00000000001 possible, but 1.01 is clearly not possible on the Earth's surface.
I have trouble with the concept of time as a variable that can be manipulated. I think of time as a construct....something we use to measure and provide chronology for events....but not a dimension.
I think time passes, period. I know there are examples of clocks going around the world in jets and ending up with different times...but did we change time, or did we warp our perception/measurement of it?
I don't think time exists per se. Its not really there. A boring party my make it SEEM as if time has slowed, etc, but, I think it has not actually.
I don't think time travel is possible....if it were, it would have already happened...and an infinite amount of time has elapsed after our existence...plenty of time for someone to come back.
Its fun to try to imagine what would happen if I were to go back to my childhood, and kill my self...would I cease to exist in the future? NO, if I had killed my self as a child, I would have already done it....and, therefore, would not have been able to reach adulthood and travel back in time to kill my child-self, etc.
etc.
So - while a fun concept for science fiction stories and "what if's"...it can't happen.
Math seems to show it CAN happen though...albeit, logically, it cannot, and I therefore cannot accept the math that proved it could....it must be flawed.
I can understand warping space as a way of visualizing the attractions of objects to the "low spots", etc...but when time is lumped in with the rest of the continuum, it has to be flawed.
The idea of an astronaut going on a 40 or whatever year mission, and returning to find that people on his home planet did not live the same length of time he was gone is ludicrous.
Going into a deep well on earth to slow time is also silly...why not go even deeper, and come out the other side...how much slower is life on THAT side of the earth? DO they know that, and would their lives be sped up if they came over to OUR side?
What if they burrowed towards us, and we towards them...at the same rate of digging...would they win because they had slower time to do the same work, or would we win because we were living faster, and perhaps digging faster?
In short It has to be some kind of mistake that allowed time to be abused as a dimension we could travel through...forget the math...use logic.
I think time passes, period. I know there are examples of clocks going around the world in jets and ending up with different times...but did we change time, or did we warp our perception/measurement of it?
I don't think time exists per se. Its not really there. A boring party my make it SEEM as if time has slowed, etc, but, I think it has not actually.
I don't think time travel is possible....if it were, it would have already happened...and an infinite amount of time has elapsed after our existence...plenty of time for someone to come back.
Its fun to try to imagine what would happen if I were to go back to my childhood, and kill my self...would I cease to exist in the future? NO, if I had killed my self as a child, I would have already done it....and, therefore, would not have been able to reach adulthood and travel back in time to kill my child-self, etc.
etc.
So - while a fun concept for science fiction stories and "what if's"...it can't happen.
Math seems to show it CAN happen though...albeit, logically, it cannot, and I therefore cannot accept the math that proved it could....it must be flawed.
I can understand warping space as a way of visualizing the attractions of objects to the "low spots", etc...but when time is lumped in with the rest of the continuum, it has to be flawed.
The idea of an astronaut going on a 40 or whatever year mission, and returning to find that people on his home planet did not live the same length of time he was gone is ludicrous.
Going into a deep well on earth to slow time is also silly...why not go even deeper, and come out the other side...how much slower is life on THAT side of the earth? DO they know that, and would their lives be sped up if they came over to OUR side?
What if they burrowed towards us, and we towards them...at the same rate of digging...would they win because they had slower time to do the same work, or would we win because we were living faster, and perhaps digging faster?
In short It has to be some kind of mistake that allowed time to be abused as a dimension we could travel through...forget the math...use logic.
time can not shrink as it do not exists
in stronger gravity clocks run slower......that is the point of time dilatation......speed of events in stronger gravity is slower as in weaker gravity
in stronger gravity clocks run slower......that is the point of time dilatation......speed of events in stronger gravity is slower as in weaker gravity
So its pretty much as I said...we cannot change time, move backwards through it, or faster through it than we are...its merely happening...we are in the NOW, and will never NOT BE.
I suppose we will be in the future after now, but when we get there, it will still be the new now.
We can induce errors in measurement, but not change what is being measured.
(Is there anyone left who's not writing a sci-fi novel or whatever you still believes time travel is possible?)
BTW -
I think I did find a way around the Paulie Exclusion Principal though....according to my Lawyer's invoicing, it IS possible to be in two places at the same time.
I suppose we will be in the future after now, but when we get there, it will still be the new now.
We can induce errors in measurement, but not change what is being measured.
(Is there anyone left who's not writing a sci-fi novel or whatever you still believes time travel is possible?)
BTW -
I think I did find a way around the Paulie Exclusion Principal though....according to my Lawyer's invoicing, it IS possible to be in two places at the same time.
QUOTE (swordfish+Feb 18 2008, 01:27 PM)
Would it be at all possible to have a small isolated time dilated area on earth, slowing time down close to a stop maybe due to gravity well or something similar? But have the occupants inside the time dilation, not physically feel the effects?
Thank you.
It's been done. They call it "Washington, D.C." after your lawyer....
Thank you.
It's been done. They call it "Washington, D.C." after your lawyer....
the time dilatation appear by changes of coordinates,or the called lorentz orthochrous transformations.that effect appear when a spaceships is related a inertial referential in motion in relation to the spaceships.;then the reality of these transformations are just geometrical deformations in intervals of spacetime,and not in the points of the spacetime.because all is in relative motion to all.and such effects in the spacetime in the general sum would be annuled.then the metric of the spacetime is generated by the products of the matrix 4 x 4 by it transposte;this is the transdformations of the coordinates of spacetime in 4-quadridimensional are noncommutative,and has as characteristic the nonlinearity.then the derivaties in relations at the exchanges of coordinates in the spacetime,through the rotation operation in 4D are not invariant,and therefore the
are transsational to it inverse matrix(-1 and +1),with imaginary number as operator of these exchanges to forward and backward to the coordinates.
are transsational to it inverse matrix(-1 and +1),with imaginary number as operator of these exchanges to forward and backward to the coordinates.
QUOTE (mott.carl+Feb 21 2008, 01:56 PM)
the time dilatation appear by changes of coordinates,or the called lorentz orthochrous transformations.that effect appear when a spaceships is related a inertial referential in motion in relation to the spaceships.;then the reality of these transformations are just geometrical deformations in intervals of spacetime,and not in the points of the spacetime.because all is in relative motion to all.and such effects in the spacetime in the general sum would be annuled.then the metric of the spacetime is generated by the products of the matrix 4 x 4 by it transposte;this is the transdformations of the coordinates of spacetime in 4-quadridimensional are noncommutative,and has as characteristic the nonlinearity.then the derivaties in relations at the exchanges of coordinates in the spacetime,through the rotation operation in 4D are not invariant,and therefore the
are transsational to it inverse matrix(-1 and +1),with imaginary number as operator of these exchanges to forward and backward to the coordinates.
So - No, theory doesn't truly predict that I would take off from earth, leaving my young children behind, travel through space at light speed with my ion propulsion system, etc....and return a merely few years older, but find my grandchildren already dead of old age.
That's a relief. The way it was presented in Physic class (First scenario) was not a pretty thought.
Come to think of it...all through school, there was a lot of topics that they had wrong.
The teacher showed a film about the future, it said computers would allow the average worker to perform a week's worth of work in only one day, and therefore, in the future, we'd only have to work one day a week, and we'd have 6 days a week off.
There was a test after the film....I was asked "How many days a week will we have to work in the future due to the efficiency of computers?"
I answered "The same as now, as there's no WAY a company would spend the money on computers, and not simply expect 5 times more work in that week."
She checked her answer sheet, and said "No, the correct answer is one day". I insisted that the film was wrong...and was sent to the principal.
He was not happy to see me....the last time was only a week before, and that issue revolved about the concept that we took advantage of the Indians in Manhattan by giving them beads for land, when their culture had no concept of land ownership. (The text book showed it as a "Good Trade")
The time before that was because I insisted that Lincoln did NOT fight the south to free the slaves, he freed them as part of a strategy to weaken the South AFTER the South wanted to leave the Union. (The text book was VERY clear that the war was fought to free the slaves....)
And so forth.
I was a "Discipline Problem"...I KNEW what they WANTED to hear as the "RIGHT" answer...but, I can't bring myself to use it if I think its wrong.
Of course, I AM wrong once in a while, because there were factors I didn't know about....but public school was a nightmare of politicized knowledge foisted on us the student like pretty albeit poisoned pabulum.
I was always afraid to eat it.
I think the Zero was a great break through in math.
I still have a deep distrust of anything we need an imaginary number to explain though.
___________________________
So - Gravitational Time Dilation in Isolated areas would be a construct in the first place, and everywhere else as well....as its merely a mathematical way of getting through an explanation of intervals of space time as opposed to points in space time, etc...a way to tie a geometrical and non-geometrical deformation without connecting them in a synched matrix.
are transsational to it inverse matrix(-1 and +1),with imaginary number as operator of these exchanges to forward and backward to the coordinates.
So - No, theory doesn't truly predict that I would take off from earth, leaving my young children behind, travel through space at light speed with my ion propulsion system, etc....and return a merely few years older, but find my grandchildren already dead of old age.
That's a relief. The way it was presented in Physic class (First scenario) was not a pretty thought.
Come to think of it...all through school, there was a lot of topics that they had wrong.
The teacher showed a film about the future, it said computers would allow the average worker to perform a week's worth of work in only one day, and therefore, in the future, we'd only have to work one day a week, and we'd have 6 days a week off.
There was a test after the film....I was asked "How many days a week will we have to work in the future due to the efficiency of computers?"
I answered "The same as now, as there's no WAY a company would spend the money on computers, and not simply expect 5 times more work in that week."
She checked her answer sheet, and said "No, the correct answer is one day". I insisted that the film was wrong...and was sent to the principal.
He was not happy to see me....the last time was only a week before, and that issue revolved about the concept that we took advantage of the Indians in Manhattan by giving them beads for land, when their culture had no concept of land ownership. (The text book showed it as a "Good Trade")
The time before that was because I insisted that Lincoln did NOT fight the south to free the slaves, he freed them as part of a strategy to weaken the South AFTER the South wanted to leave the Union. (The text book was VERY clear that the war was fought to free the slaves....)
And so forth.
I was a "Discipline Problem"...I KNEW what they WANTED to hear as the "RIGHT" answer...but, I can't bring myself to use it if I think its wrong.
Of course, I AM wrong once in a while, because there were factors I didn't know about....but public school was a nightmare of politicized knowledge foisted on us the student like pretty albeit poisoned pabulum.
I was always afraid to eat it.
I think the Zero was a great break through in math.
I still have a deep distrust of anything we need an imaginary number to explain though.
___________________________
So - Gravitational Time Dilation in Isolated areas would be a construct in the first place, and everywhere else as well....as its merely a mathematical way of getting through an explanation of intervals of space time as opposed to points in space time, etc...a way to tie a geometrical and non-geometrical deformation without connecting them in a synched matrix.
So, how do you time dilate on purpose? Can you?
TEEJ ?
" So - No, theory doesn't truly predict that I would take off from earth, leaving my young children behind, travel through space at light speed with my ion propulsion system, etc....and return a merely few years older, but find my grandchildren already dead of old age.
That's a relief. The way it was presented in Physic class (First scenario) was not a pretty thought. "
Well then, soon life will become ugly again :)
What you described are the exact truth with the difference of being able to travel at 'c'.
That's not possible for anything consisting of, or building up mass. So yes traveling at high speed will from your twins point slow down your aging. And traveling long enough will get your grandchildren to become 'ancestors' :)
But it would take enormous energy to make someone travel that fast. Great mass also slows down time as compared to a observer, so you could reach the same effect by parking close enough to a black hole :)
But you are quite correct saying that we are in the 'now' whatever that means. It will feel no different whether you're rocketing or sitting in your sofa at home. The apparent reality clock will tick internally 'as usual' not faster or slower. It's only when comparing with another 'frame' the difference gets noticed.
" So - No, theory doesn't truly predict that I would take off from earth, leaving my young children behind, travel through space at light speed with my ion propulsion system, etc....and return a merely few years older, but find my grandchildren already dead of old age.
That's a relief. The way it was presented in Physic class (First scenario) was not a pretty thought. "
Well then, soon life will become ugly again :)
What you described are the exact truth with the difference of being able to travel at 'c'.
That's not possible for anything consisting of, or building up mass. So yes traveling at high speed will from your twins point slow down your aging. And traveling long enough will get your grandchildren to become 'ancestors' :)
But it would take enormous energy to make someone travel that fast. Great mass also slows down time as compared to a observer, so you could reach the same effect by parking close enough to a black hole :)
But you are quite correct saying that we are in the 'now' whatever that means. It will feel no different whether you're rocketing or sitting in your sofa at home. The apparent reality clock will tick internally 'as usual' not faster or slower. It's only when comparing with another 'frame' the difference gets noticed.
Hi yor_on, Oderfla, TEEJ, mott.carl, Sapo, amrit, Rpenner et al,
The thought occurs to me that if the effects of spatial vortices were in some way enhanced and modified to the extent that light could be "slowed" to such a degree in some region of space... not just light but matter would be similarly affected. Slow light has been accomplished in certain superchilled gases and in some experimental forms of metamaterials. One of the benefits of having a high uniform speed of light is time appears to run the same everywhere. The discovery of EIT (Electromagnetically Induced Transparency) has led to another technology of "slow light". Though this effect is only to be seen in the bulk of special materials. People are not about to walk through a gas at near zero degrees absolute or through a block of material similar to glass. If this "effect" was achieved in free space it may be possible (in the very distant future) to suspend or greatly slow time for a traveler whose only interest was travel into the future.. This would be like increasing the refractive index of "free space" to a truly immense number and "walking" through this "region" may take a hundred years external time while internal time might be "slowed" to only a few minutes trip. This would create a "Brigadoon" zone.... he he he!
I would not wait around for this in the near future though... It seems very unlikely to me but very unlikely things have happened in the past. Refractive Index may be alterable on a "grand scale" simply because the refractive index is a ratio of velocity of light in a vacuum to the velocity of light in the "medium"... provided this "medium" is space it may be possible to modify this property by electromagnetic means. Of course the matter waves of the traveler would not want to suffer dispersion... that would be "unfortunate". This effect is not going to happen "accidentally". This is not a gravitational time dilation but dilation through "Special Relativity".
Cheers
The thought occurs to me that if the effects of spatial vortices were in some way enhanced and modified to the extent that light could be "slowed" to such a degree in some region of space... not just light but matter would be similarly affected. Slow light has been accomplished in certain superchilled gases and in some experimental forms of metamaterials. One of the benefits of having a high uniform speed of light is time appears to run the same everywhere. The discovery of EIT (Electromagnetically Induced Transparency) has led to another technology of "slow light". Though this effect is only to be seen in the bulk of special materials. People are not about to walk through a gas at near zero degrees absolute or through a block of material similar to glass. If this "effect" was achieved in free space it may be possible (in the very distant future) to suspend or greatly slow time for a traveler whose only interest was travel into the future.. This would be like increasing the refractive index of "free space" to a truly immense number and "walking" through this "region" may take a hundred years external time while internal time might be "slowed" to only a few minutes trip. This would create a "Brigadoon" zone.... he he he!
I would not wait around for this in the near future though... It seems very unlikely to me but very unlikely things have happened in the past. Refractive Index may be alterable on a "grand scale" simply because the refractive index is a ratio of velocity of light in a vacuum to the velocity of light in the "medium"... provided this "medium" is space it may be possible to modify this property by electromagnetic means. Of course the matter waves of the traveler would not want to suffer dispersion... that would be "unfortunate". This effect is not going to happen "accidentally". This is not a gravitational time dilation but dilation through "Special Relativity".
Cheers
We're still stuck in the now...and, I believe we've agreed we can make a clock tick slower if we increase gravitational forces acting upon it....but, that's just the measurement, not time, that is slowed.
Break down the gobbledygook formulae and we still come back to light itself having different speeds...and, we're pretty certain that if we exceed the speed of light "c" that matter will turn into energy.
Conversely, that should mean that energy, slowed below the speed of light, should convert to matter.
Just to make this a little interesting, light itself should therefore be energy when faster, and matter when slower, as it obviously speeds up and slows down in different refractive indices.....OR, travels exactly the same speed, BUT, in different refractive indices, it has different distances at quantum scale to traverse to get from reference point to reference point.....
AND, as it obviously breaks down into different frequencies under the circumstances, it is obviously not a homogenous composition.
So - the gravitational effects that CAN slow light, or, accelerate it, etc...merely warp our observational perspective, as the appearance of our target is therefore warped due to our use of impacted measurement techniques.
So, naturally, we would interpret what we see as warped, dilated, or expanded, etc...depending upon which funny mirror we were playing with, but calling our observation technique.
So - time can not be dilated, as there is no force that can act upon it....despite some flawed theories to the contrary.
Time has no mass. Time has no components at all....its merely a construct.
We USE time as a way of expressing chronology, needed to express acceleration, velocity, etc. We can say force = mass times acceleration, and do the math backwards, and try to say that time = something too....but, logic must prevail, and we must remember that we made up time as a concept....as a scale to measure change relative to chronology.
If time had mass, then gravity could act upon it.
If this were the case however, who knows, maybe eventually all the time would be sucked into the black holes, and then there would be no future, etc....which, again, logically, could not happen, because, again, time is not a thing, its an idea...even if NOTHING ever happened again, ever, there would STILL be time after it stopped happening...albeit a more boring time, and no one to witness it, but, time none the less.
If I take my clock, and subject it to stronger and stronger gravitational fields, and it ticks slower and slower...is time slowing, or just my clock?
If my clock stopped ticking, did time stop, or just my clock? If time did stop, what would we call the period after that...? How long would we have to wait to see if it started again? How would we measure that period we waited?
The bottom line is that we're using various clocks...but they are still clocks....a vibrating cesium atom, a pendulum, whatever...they are all still clocks, and therefore not measuring time per se, but measuring the action they use to modulate their cadence.
If gravity affects its cadence....its the wrong clock for that experiment.
Summary - no, you can't dilate time in an isolated area, or any other area, with gravity. You can however make clocks produce errors in time keeping.
sigh.
Forget about this time warp nonsense - a practical issue is at hand -
OK - I need to try to find people who remember how to do analogue computing, so we can get the hell away from this damn qubit trap based on binomial thinking.
Anyone here know how to write code for analogue computing, so it can be used to invent a program language for a Quantum Computer? I personally feel the qubit is evil, and must be destroyed.
Anyone?
Break down the gobbledygook formulae and we still come back to light itself having different speeds...and, we're pretty certain that if we exceed the speed of light "c" that matter will turn into energy.
Conversely, that should mean that energy, slowed below the speed of light, should convert to matter.
Just to make this a little interesting, light itself should therefore be energy when faster, and matter when slower, as it obviously speeds up and slows down in different refractive indices.....OR, travels exactly the same speed, BUT, in different refractive indices, it has different distances at quantum scale to traverse to get from reference point to reference point.....
AND, as it obviously breaks down into different frequencies under the circumstances, it is obviously not a homogenous composition.
So - the gravitational effects that CAN slow light, or, accelerate it, etc...merely warp our observational perspective, as the appearance of our target is therefore warped due to our use of impacted measurement techniques.
So, naturally, we would interpret what we see as warped, dilated, or expanded, etc...depending upon which funny mirror we were playing with, but calling our observation technique.
So - time can not be dilated, as there is no force that can act upon it....despite some flawed theories to the contrary.
Time has no mass. Time has no components at all....its merely a construct.
We USE time as a way of expressing chronology, needed to express acceleration, velocity, etc. We can say force = mass times acceleration, and do the math backwards, and try to say that time = something too....but, logic must prevail, and we must remember that we made up time as a concept....as a scale to measure change relative to chronology.
If time had mass, then gravity could act upon it.
If this were the case however, who knows, maybe eventually all the time would be sucked into the black holes, and then there would be no future, etc....which, again, logically, could not happen, because, again, time is not a thing, its an idea...even if NOTHING ever happened again, ever, there would STILL be time after it stopped happening...albeit a more boring time, and no one to witness it, but, time none the less.
If I take my clock, and subject it to stronger and stronger gravitational fields, and it ticks slower and slower...is time slowing, or just my clock?
If my clock stopped ticking, did time stop, or just my clock? If time did stop, what would we call the period after that...? How long would we have to wait to see if it started again? How would we measure that period we waited?
The bottom line is that we're using various clocks...but they are still clocks....a vibrating cesium atom, a pendulum, whatever...they are all still clocks, and therefore not measuring time per se, but measuring the action they use to modulate their cadence.
If gravity affects its cadence....its the wrong clock for that experiment.
Summary - no, you can't dilate time in an isolated area, or any other area, with gravity. You can however make clocks produce errors in time keeping.
sigh.
Forget about this time warp nonsense - a practical issue is at hand -
OK - I need to try to find people who remember how to do analogue computing, so we can get the hell away from this damn qubit trap based on binomial thinking.
Anyone here know how to write code for analogue computing, so it can be used to invent a program language for a Quantum Computer? I personally feel the qubit is evil, and must be destroyed.
Anyone?
However time runs into unstable superpositions of the future but decoheres in our 3D concept of now. I could provide examples of how i can read entangled superpositions decochering into an even now and relating to an entangled event into the future, but I couldn't be bothered, if you disbelieve my versions of the Potential Positions Theory that's OK I'll keep the secret to myself.
What Knot it's not occurring. lol atlas is not part of my pseudonym for nothing
What Knot it's not occurring. lol atlas is not part of my pseudonym for nothing
8 =21cm in terms of entanglement (8.21) 
Hi TEEJ et al,
QUOTE (TEEJ +)
Anyone here know how to write code for analogue computing, so it can be used to invent a program language for a Quantum Computer? I personally feel the qubit is evil, and must be destroyed.
Anyone?
Anyone?
He he he... trick question... Analog Computers don't have programs... they solve simultaneous equations using the OP Amp modules to simulate the states of simultaneous differential and integral equations. Those things worked using module breadboards and jumpers. Dedicated to solving one problem at a time.
You are "close" to understanding quantum computers except that qubits have "more" than two states... Two states is called a "bit" ... quantum states are qubits which are a superposition of states OFF, ON and "both" at the same time. I expect you are seeing if we are still on our toes out here?
Quantum Computers are "kinda like" multiple state digital versions of Analog Computers. In many ways very similar and solved by a fairly conceptually similar method through "resonances". However a real practical Quantum Computer will have a program of sorts. However I doubt if a breadboard with any number of analog modules could solve the traveling salesman problem... But you never know?
Cheers
You are "close" to understanding quantum computers except that qubits have "more" than two states... Two states is called a "bit" ... quantum states are qubits which are a superposition of states OFF, ON and "both" at the same time. I expect you are seeing if we are still on our toes out here?
Quantum Computers are "kinda like" multiple state digital versions of Analog Computers. In many ways very similar and solved by a fairly conceptually similar method through "resonances". However a real practical Quantum Computer will have a program of sorts. However I doubt if a breadboard with any number of analog modules could solve the traveling salesman problem... But you never know?Cheers
QUOTE
TEEJ Posted: Feb 20 2008, 05:45 PM I know there are examples of clocks going around the world in jets and ending up with different times...but did we change time, or did we warp our perception/measurement of it?
i think of what the person holding the clock would experience. they would not see their clock slow down, since to them it is everything outside the plane changing quicker. so it is not only the clocks mechanisms that have slowed down, but all mechanisms including the person holding the clock inside the aeroplane's biochemistry. they have literally aged less due to all biological processes have slowed relative to the world outside the aeroplane
Hi kjw and TEEJ et al,
kjw is right... and so in TEEJ. As Einstein said... everything is relative. The amounts of time dilation experienced at these low velocities is imperceptible to the human mind. I think that the Apollo Astronauts when they went to the moon experienced about 1/10th second over the entire trip. They were traveling at nearly 7 miles a second for most of that trip to and from the Earth at times. Imagine what you would need to be traveling at to make significant differences. IMHO time is simply a measure of the rate of events required to "localize us" in a particular place. The 'events" are the result of single photon exchange forces. If a material object were to "touch" the lower bound of the speed of light ... the number of interacting events falls to an absolute zero as time "stops". It is interesting to speculate that the converse is true and that simply preventing photon interactions is sufficient to stop the experience of time... a sort of "stasis field" perhaps... he he he! Shades of the "I. C. Weiner" Fry was supposedly delivering a Pizza to in the first episode of Futurama. An example is a superconductor may be able to prevent certain areas of it's material from interacting with external photons. A superconductor is one of the best "insulators" from external influences known. Superconducting states are quanta too and so are Bose-Einstein Condensates.
In a normal room there are so many events happening on the quantum scale that time appears to be "smooth and continuous". As a traveler nears the speed of light compared with an external observer the number of events being experienced by the traveler per second of observer elapsed time would be relatively small. On the other hand since the traveler experiences time the same way we do his time is running correspondingly slower than the observers time in proportion to the Lorentz-Fitzgerald "factor".
Now one should discern that the time dilation is a scalar and not a vector ... it is also always cumulative. You can only travel by this means in a half a dimension of time. Time Dilation can happen to a "dog chasing it's tail", the more he chases it the longer time is slowed for him. Though I could think of easier ways to grow old gracefully. . The Relativistic Doppler Effect is a different matter (though related)... It is an optical vector phenomenon. The other important relativistic phenomenon is length contraction.
Cheers
kjw is right... and so in TEEJ. As Einstein said... everything is relative. The amounts of time dilation experienced at these low velocities is imperceptible to the human mind. I think that the Apollo Astronauts when they went to the moon experienced about 1/10th second over the entire trip. They were traveling at nearly 7 miles a second for most of that trip to and from the Earth at times. Imagine what you would need to be traveling at to make significant differences. IMHO time is simply a measure of the rate of events required to "localize us" in a particular place. The 'events" are the result of single photon exchange forces. If a material object were to "touch" the lower bound of the speed of light ... the number of interacting events falls to an absolute zero as time "stops". It is interesting to speculate that the converse is true and that simply preventing photon interactions is sufficient to stop the experience of time... a sort of "stasis field" perhaps... he he he! Shades of the "I. C. Weiner" Fry was supposedly delivering a Pizza to in the first episode of Futurama. An example is a superconductor may be able to prevent certain areas of it's material from interacting with external photons. A superconductor is one of the best "insulators" from external influences known. Superconducting states are quanta too and so are Bose-Einstein Condensates.
In a normal room there are so many events happening on the quantum scale that time appears to be "smooth and continuous". As a traveler nears the speed of light compared with an external observer the number of events being experienced by the traveler per second of observer elapsed time would be relatively small. On the other hand since the traveler experiences time the same way we do his time is running correspondingly slower than the observers time in proportion to the Lorentz-Fitzgerald "factor".
Now one should discern that the time dilation is a scalar and not a vector ... it is also always cumulative. You can only travel by this means in a half a dimension of time. Time Dilation can happen to a "dog chasing it's tail", the more he chases it the longer time is slowed for him. Though I could think of easier ways to grow old gracefully. . The Relativistic Doppler Effect is a different matter (though related)... It is an optical vector phenomenon. The other important relativistic phenomenon is length contraction.
Cheers
taking that the potential field gravitational is variable,how much more was deformed the spacetime curved( given by the difference of the grad) is equivalent
to the constant changes of velocities_THIS DOES THINK THAT THERE IS LASTEST
CURVATURE OF THE SPACETIME THAT IS MEASURED BY THE SPEED OF LIGHT.THEN THE GRAVITATIONAL FIELD IS VARIABLES AS THE VELOCITY,DISTORTING THE SPACETIMES,AND TWISTING ASYMMETRICALLY THE
SPACE AND TIME,THEN THE VARIATIONS OF THE VELOCITIES ARE DEPENDENT OF
DEGREES OF CURVATURES;THIS IS THE TIME DILATATION EQUIVALENT TO THE CURVATURES OF THE SPACETIME(EQUIVALENT TOPOLOGICALLY THE LENGHT CONTRACTION) ARE DERIVED OF THE VARIATIONS OF THE CURVES,THAT ARE GIVEN BY CHANGES IN THE DIRECTIONS OF THE MEAN CURVATURES,AND NOT
OF ITS MAGNITUDES,AS THE UNIFORM ACCELERATION( WITH ROTATIONS ARE
GIVEN BY THE LEFT-RIGHT SYMMETRY BREAKDOWN( THAT IS CP AND PT TO
STRONG INTERACTIONA,ASSOXCIATED TO THE SEGMENTED TIMES,AS TWO DIMENSIONS OF THE TIME,WHEN THE SPACE IS CURVED,AND APPEAR ASYMMETRIES OF MIRRORS.THEN GRAVITATIONAL TIME DILATATION IS EQUIVALENT IN HIGHER DIMENSIONS TO THE ASYMMETRY BETWEEN LEFT-RIGHT
HANDNESS.THEN HAVE THE CHIRALITY IN EIGHT-DIMENSIONS,6-DIMENSIONS SPATIAL AS CALABI-YAU WRAP UP IN 8D,WITH TWO DIMENSION OF TIME,LINKED BY TWO OPPOSED DIRECTIONS TO THE TIME,COMPACTIFING THE
THREE-DIMENSIONS OF SPACE( ZERO SPACE,INFINITE TIME).
to the constant changes of velocities_THIS DOES THINK THAT THERE IS LASTEST
CURVATURE OF THE SPACETIME THAT IS MEASURED BY THE SPEED OF LIGHT.THEN THE GRAVITATIONAL FIELD IS VARIABLES AS THE VELOCITY,DISTORTING THE SPACETIMES,AND TWISTING ASYMMETRICALLY THE
SPACE AND TIME,THEN THE VARIATIONS OF THE VELOCITIES ARE DEPENDENT OF
DEGREES OF CURVATURES;THIS IS THE TIME DILATATION EQUIVALENT TO THE CURVATURES OF THE SPACETIME(EQUIVALENT TOPOLOGICALLY THE LENGHT CONTRACTION) ARE DERIVED OF THE VARIATIONS OF THE CURVES,THAT ARE GIVEN BY CHANGES IN THE DIRECTIONS OF THE MEAN CURVATURES,AND NOT
OF ITS MAGNITUDES,AS THE UNIFORM ACCELERATION( WITH ROTATIONS ARE
GIVEN BY THE LEFT-RIGHT SYMMETRY BREAKDOWN( THAT IS CP AND PT TO
STRONG INTERACTIONA,ASSOXCIATED TO THE SEGMENTED TIMES,AS TWO DIMENSIONS OF THE TIME,WHEN THE SPACE IS CURVED,AND APPEAR ASYMMETRIES OF MIRRORS.THEN GRAVITATIONAL TIME DILATATION IS EQUIVALENT IN HIGHER DIMENSIONS TO THE ASYMMETRY BETWEEN LEFT-RIGHT
HANDNESS.THEN HAVE THE CHIRALITY IN EIGHT-DIMENSIONS,6-DIMENSIONS SPATIAL AS CALABI-YAU WRAP UP IN 8D,WITH TWO DIMENSION OF TIME,LINKED BY TWO OPPOSED DIRECTIONS TO THE TIME,COMPACTIFING THE
THREE-DIMENSIONS OF SPACE( ZERO SPACE,INFINITE TIME).
Elf - very funny - but, I said BASED on binomial THINKING, not that it WAS binomial. More that the qubit was being used like a binomial element uses a bit, etc....conceptually.
And, yeah , I think we're going to need some sort of "Language" to communicate with a computer system that solves problems when its not even turned on, etc....
So, not REALLY a trick question post.
Tricky, maybe, but not trick.
Not, what's REALLY tricky, is trying to read in carl mott's punctuation vacuum.
OK - as for biological systems slowing down because they are traveling faster.....naw, I don't buy it logically.
I mean, space isn't really "curved" either...its just space...room for stuff to happen.
Gravity can pull OBJECTS, sure, and warp the shape of what's floating close enough, etc....but the space itself is not going anywhere.
All the space that exists right now has ALWAYS existed, right where it is now....and it was, and will be there for all eternity. There is no other logical explanation.
If space curved, it would have an outer boundary, which it can't, what would be outside that?
-----
My personal theory is that every math solution that says space has a boundary is based upon using numbers to compute infinity....no matter HOW small the rounding error...an infinitely long calculated line will eventually curve back upon itself.
And space is infinite....it cannot have a beginning, or an end....it MUST extend forever, in all directions....and its where history happened.
As we know objects in space are moving...we know that the process must be continuous...or all the "Stuff" would end up somewhere else, etc.
So - it makes perfect sense that the origin of our known universe is continually re-created, if its a big bang, or whatever, it's happened an infinite amount of times....and, as we have an infinite amount of space for it to happen within....its likely to be happening every day, SOMEWHERE out there.
An infinite amount of space....allows an infinite number of big bangs...and these might even be going off like popcorn right now....in an infinite number of OTHER universes.
The stuff flying off of one bang might be hurtling towards the stuff from another big bang....an infinite number of times.
Space may be just one giant gang bang.
_______________________________
And time is the same...essentially like a space where things happen, not a thing.
It can't speed up or slow down...its just there.
__________________________________
And, yeah , I think we're going to need some sort of "Language" to communicate with a computer system that solves problems when its not even turned on, etc....
So, not REALLY a trick question post.
Tricky, maybe, but not trick.
Not, what's REALLY tricky, is trying to read in carl mott's punctuation vacuum.
OK - as for biological systems slowing down because they are traveling faster.....naw, I don't buy it logically.
I mean, space isn't really "curved" either...its just space...room for stuff to happen.
Gravity can pull OBJECTS, sure, and warp the shape of what's floating close enough, etc....but the space itself is not going anywhere.
All the space that exists right now has ALWAYS existed, right where it is now....and it was, and will be there for all eternity. There is no other logical explanation.
If space curved, it would have an outer boundary, which it can't, what would be outside that?
-----
My personal theory is that every math solution that says space has a boundary is based upon using numbers to compute infinity....no matter HOW small the rounding error...an infinitely long calculated line will eventually curve back upon itself.
And space is infinite....it cannot have a beginning, or an end....it MUST extend forever, in all directions....and its where history happened.
As we know objects in space are moving...we know that the process must be continuous...or all the "Stuff" would end up somewhere else, etc.
So - it makes perfect sense that the origin of our known universe is continually re-created, if its a big bang, or whatever, it's happened an infinite amount of times....and, as we have an infinite amount of space for it to happen within....its likely to be happening every day, SOMEWHERE out there.
An infinite amount of space....allows an infinite number of big bangs...and these might even be going off like popcorn right now....in an infinite number of OTHER universes.
The stuff flying off of one bang might be hurtling towards the stuff from another big bang....an infinite number of times.
Space may be just one giant gang bang.
_______________________________
And time is the same...essentially like a space where things happen, not a thing.
It can't speed up or slow down...its just there.
__________________________________
Hi TEEJ et al,
you can use cell division as a time keeping device. although it is not superior to a clock that uses for example the vibrations of an atom, but you can say my spaceship is traveling xkm per cell division.
if a clock on earth records a round trip of a rocket traveling at 0.999c, to the nearest star as 8 years and the clock on the rocket records 2 months, http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node140.html , there is no doubt that on board the rocket, the trip will only take 2 months (length contraction comes into play for the passenger) so, if the biological system does not slow down also, and instead you calculate how many heart beats the passenger experiences based on the earth clock the passengers heart has made 2 months of heartbeats in 8 years, the passenger heart beat has reduced to less than 2 beats per minute. not even free divers get this low, 15 beats per minute is what some free divers get down to but they keep it down for 8 minutes, not 2 months
if you can not use the clock that is being carried as an accurate time keeping device for the situation you are in, which clock can you use ? are you suggesting there is an absolute time ?
QUOTE (TEEJ+)
OK - as for biological systems slowing down because they are traveling faster.....naw, I don't buy it logically.
I mean, space isn't really "curved" either...its just space...room for stuff to happen. Gravity can pull OBJECTS, sure, and warp the shape of what's floating close enough, etc....but the space itself is not going anywhere.
All the space that exists right now has ALWAYS existed, right where it is now....and it was, and will be there for all eternity. There is no other logical explanation. If space curved, it would have an outer boundary, which it can't, what would be outside that?
I mean, space isn't really "curved" either...its just space...room for stuff to happen. Gravity can pull OBJECTS, sure, and warp the shape of what's floating close enough, etc....but the space itself is not going anywhere.
All the space that exists right now has ALWAYS existed, right where it is now....and it was, and will be there for all eternity. There is no other logical explanation. If space curved, it would have an outer boundary, which it can't, what would be outside that?
The human perspective is just an egocentric perspective. This is not some kind of slur... we evolved that way. We are simply animals that needed to survive and find answers to problems that were of immediate concern to us as individuals. Lose sight of that "perspective" and usually we lose our grip on life because it only takes a moment's hesitation or distraction and instead of being "on the bus" we are "under the bus". The speed of a very heavy bus is a "great concern" to us all.
We are not "equipped" in any physical way to sense or evaluate speed very much in excess of the speed of buses in general. For brains that evolved only to deal with these low velocity phenomena we cannot "instinctively" know what these events mean. Quite plainly evolution has not equipped us for it. So what value is that "logic" to you? You are actually referring to "instinct" because "logic" has allowed us to build sophisticated instruments that can measure things that move much faster that the speed of a bus and sense and measure other things even smaller than an atom and last less time than not only can we sense but but less time than we can even normally imagine. I can hold in my hand an instrument that receives transmissions from a dozen earth orbiting satellites and can routinely make 12 or more relativistic corrections to the received signals in order to determine my position anywhere on the earth's surface. I can know that this is true because this is what makes them work. If I do not make those corrections "my position" would wander randomly about an area on the surface of the globe with a speed of about 10 Km/day over a relatively large "uncontrolled" area.
The next point I would note about this already undoubted accuracy of these devices is that these calculations have been refined to a precision, in certain specialized equipment, to an accuracy of within 1cm anywhere on Earth. The types of correction include Doppler, Sagnac, Shapiro signal propagation delay and Gravitational Red Shift effects of several kinds. Higher accuracy can also be determined using specialized experimental apparatus. What I can report is in every one of those many applications and refinements of Relativity ... both Special and General... It is for all intents and purposes are very highly accurate and without any error in tests so far. More has been learned from GPS in the last decade about Special and General Relativity than has been understood in the previous century. Nothing has ever been found to contradict any aspect of the theory so far but as with all theories it was never expected that so much could be learned about something that is so simple. Details within details within even more details, on and on. Many other black projects are underway with military purposes intent on refining these "details" to higher and higher precisions. All this from satellites orbiting our planet at speeds "a lot higher than than a bus" and altitudes which are varying continuously. With the right kinds of technologies "you can do almost anything". I assure you no dollar has been left unspent to discover this "detail" and you will not be seeing it in a text book real soon.
The more learned from relativity the more we are able to learn. This information is in the main is highly classified. You may ask why but if I told you I would need to kill you... he he he! Seriously... these points are very hard to appreciate unless you can begin to grasp what it is all about. An "old" and relatively "out of date" reference can be found here...
Relativity in the Global Positioning System by Neil Ashby
It is now "old" simply because it was written in 2003... so much has been learned since then (even so much of the fine detail has been suppressed). You will find a lot of "unexplained details", and you can "guess" why.
What you can gather easily is Relativity (Special and General), time dilation, length contraction and many other related effects truly "exist". One of them is the relatively strange "phase wrap up" effect. Rotating an accurate GPS at a rate of around 8 cps can demonstrate it. Not only that there are discernible "cosmic" effects that can be measured due to the gravitational effects of distant space objects like other planets in the solar system affecting the matter wave potential at the Earth and clocks in orbit. Space and time are indeed "warped" and clocks are really affected. The world of human senses is lying to us. The clocks on these spacecraft are all in "free fall" and they do not "feel" gravity but they record the fact they are "immersed in it". They all still undergo Special and General Relativity effects and that means time and space is not as constant as you might reasonably expect... All this for a couple of hundred bucks for something you can put in your pocket or be included in your Blackberry almost "for free".
Cheers
We are not "equipped" in any physical way to sense or evaluate speed very much in excess of the speed of buses in general. For brains that evolved only to deal with these low velocity phenomena we cannot "instinctively" know what these events mean. Quite plainly evolution has not equipped us for it. So what value is that "logic" to you? You are actually referring to "instinct" because "logic" has allowed us to build sophisticated instruments that can measure things that move much faster that the speed of a bus and sense and measure other things even smaller than an atom and last less time than not only can we sense but but less time than we can even normally imagine. I can hold in my hand an instrument that receives transmissions from a dozen earth orbiting satellites and can routinely make 12 or more relativistic corrections to the received signals in order to determine my position anywhere on the earth's surface. I can know that this is true because this is what makes them work. If I do not make those corrections "my position" would wander randomly about an area on the surface of the globe with a speed of about 10 Km/day over a relatively large "uncontrolled" area.
The next point I would note about this already undoubted accuracy of these devices is that these calculations have been refined to a precision, in certain specialized equipment, to an accuracy of within 1cm anywhere on Earth. The types of correction include Doppler, Sagnac, Shapiro signal propagation delay and Gravitational Red Shift effects of several kinds. Higher accuracy can also be determined using specialized experimental apparatus. What I can report is in every one of those many applications and refinements of Relativity ... both Special and General... It is for all intents and purposes are very highly accurate and without any error in tests so far. More has been learned from GPS in the last decade about Special and General Relativity than has been understood in the previous century. Nothing has ever been found to contradict any aspect of the theory so far but as with all theories it was never expected that so much could be learned about something that is so simple. Details within details within even more details, on and on. Many other black projects are underway with military purposes intent on refining these "details" to higher and higher precisions. All this from satellites orbiting our planet at speeds "a lot higher than than a bus" and altitudes which are varying continuously. With the right kinds of technologies "you can do almost anything". I assure you no dollar has been left unspent to discover this "detail" and you will not be seeing it in a text book real soon.
The more learned from relativity the more we are able to learn. This information is in the main is highly classified. You may ask why but if I told you I would need to kill you... he he he! Seriously... these points are very hard to appreciate unless you can begin to grasp what it is all about. An "old" and relatively "out of date" reference can be found here...
Relativity in the Global Positioning System by Neil Ashby
It is now "old" simply because it was written in 2003... so much has been learned since then (even so much of the fine detail has been suppressed). You will find a lot of "unexplained details", and you can "guess" why.
What you can gather easily is Relativity (Special and General), time dilation, length contraction and many other related effects truly "exist". One of them is the relatively strange "phase wrap up" effect. Rotating an accurate GPS at a rate of around 8 cps can demonstrate it. Not only that there are discernible "cosmic" effects that can be measured due to the gravitational effects of distant space objects like other planets in the solar system affecting the matter wave potential at the Earth and clocks in orbit. Space and time are indeed "warped" and clocks are really affected. The world of human senses is lying to us. The clocks on these spacecraft are all in "free fall" and they do not "feel" gravity but they record the fact they are "immersed in it". They all still undergo Special and General Relativity effects and that means time and space is not as constant as you might reasonably expect... All this for a couple of hundred bucks for something you can put in your pocket or be included in your Blackberry almost "for free".
Cheers
this very interesting
GoodElf what you wrote about EIT blew my mind :)
Really cool and interesting, I can see why you are so fascinated by lasers and holography. It's experimenting at the quantum level.
Like this:
"
Given slow light, what can we do with it? One interesting proposal is that of an optical black hole, an idea put forward by Leonhardt and Piwnicki [169]. The idea is that if light were to interact with a vortex of some sort, e.g. in a Bose-Einstein condensate, then if it were moving slowly enough it would be sucked into the vortex in the same way that matter is sucked into a black hole in space.
Thus a black hole that could be built within a laboratory could be possible. This effect arises as light sees a moving dielectric medium as an effective gravitational field. It may be that the vortices recently achieved in Bose-Einstein condensates are too small to work effectively as optical black holes. In that case it may be possible to use Laguerre-Gaussian beams to create a vortex within a sample of hot gas or to carry out EIT within a rotating solid medium.
"
Yep :) Blows my mind all over again...
TEEJ "If I take my clock, and subject it to stronger and stronger gravitational fields, and it ticks slower and slower...is time slowing, or just my clock?
If my clock stopped ticking, did time stop, or just my clock? If time did stop, what would we call the period after that...? How long would we have to wait to see if it started again? How would we measure that period we waited? "
If you're sitting at that black hole your legs dangling over the abyss then that clock will tick as normal for you. You and it are in what's called the same 'frame' of space time.
It's only when you change 'frame' again or if someone else living in another frame, like that twin of yours that you leaved to go fishing in that black hole, compares their 'time' to yours that the difference will show.
So yes, i agree to time being a strange concept, but it do exist.
BTW: I'm getting kind of suspicious here TEEJ, wanna come clean*?*
:)
Really cool and interesting, I can see why you are so fascinated by lasers and holography. It's experimenting at the quantum level.
Like this:
"
Given slow light, what can we do with it? One interesting proposal is that of an optical black hole, an idea put forward by Leonhardt and Piwnicki [169]. The idea is that if light were to interact with a vortex of some sort, e.g. in a Bose-Einstein condensate, then if it were moving slowly enough it would be sucked into the vortex in the same way that matter is sucked into a black hole in space.
Thus a black hole that could be built within a laboratory could be possible. This effect arises as light sees a moving dielectric medium as an effective gravitational field. It may be that the vortices recently achieved in Bose-Einstein condensates are too small to work effectively as optical black holes. In that case it may be possible to use Laguerre-Gaussian beams to create a vortex within a sample of hot gas or to carry out EIT within a rotating solid medium.
"
Yep :) Blows my mind all over again...
TEEJ "If I take my clock, and subject it to stronger and stronger gravitational fields, and it ticks slower and slower...is time slowing, or just my clock?
If my clock stopped ticking, did time stop, or just my clock? If time did stop, what would we call the period after that...? How long would we have to wait to see if it started again? How would we measure that period we waited? "
If you're sitting at that black hole your legs dangling over the abyss then that clock will tick as normal for you. You and it are in what's called the same 'frame' of space time.
It's only when you change 'frame' again or if someone else living in another frame, like that twin of yours that you leaved to go fishing in that black hole, compares their 'time' to yours that the difference will show.
So yes, i agree to time being a strange concept, but it do exist.
BTW: I'm getting kind of suspicious here TEEJ, wanna come clean*?*
:)
Uh huh..."very highy accurate", and "without errors in measurement"....those terms are scary.
So, I am human, so I have to take your word for it that if the bus goes fast enough, time stops?
IIRC, if matter were to exceed the speed of light, it is supposed to be converted to energy....
Now, can it complete that transition if time stops?
So, if the bus can't actually GO faster than the speed of light, because time slows at it approaches it, and therefore could stop if one reached it, etc...then, matter could never actually turn into energy.
Movement is relative to distance and time....if time stops, can there still be movement?
What would the bus's speedometer say if time stopped....it was was JUST about to say the speed of light...and, then, what?
I suppose headlights on a bus that can go that fast would be somewhat pointless....as the bus would be essentially keeping up with its beams.
I wonder if we turned the bus around, and drove ~ at the speed of light in reverse, if it would appear to us that the headlights beams were merely anchored at some point behind us, and grew longer towards us as we drove away?
If we drove in reverse FASTER than the speed of light, would the beams behind us be invisible to us?
What if matter flying at near light speed, from another distant big bang, flying parallel to our near light speed course, were to pass us...could we see it, or would it be invisible, as it was - to our view, going by at about double the speed of light?
As we must have an infinite number of big bangs occurring across the entire space system, stuff like this must be flying by all the time....and, I'm sure, colliding as well.
For all we know, the passing of this across us creates the equivalent (Not literally, the equivalent/analogous) of a static electric charge related to mass...and that's all we call gravity...and why mass seems to attract mass, etc.
This may have even started before busing.
So - I'm sure gravity does some odd things, heck, just playing with magnets can keep me amused for quite a while...but, time....no, don't buy it.....its not a real thing....its just a concept.
I still do not think that time will slow, speed up, or in anyway be impacted, by the objects speed through it...
I could understand if matter broke down into energy...that has plausibility, just like early planes broke apart when they hit the sound barrier...matter may break apart when the speed exceeds the cohesive forces that render it as matter.
So - the matter may be now energy...but, I can't see how an imaginary construct would be impacted by the transformation.
I agree that a GPS works....mine does, its great.
It relies on those geosynchronous satellites to say what time it is, over and over again....and for my GPS unit to say, hmmmm....look at what time it was when # 12 sent the message compared to the others, we must not be in Kansas anymore, etc.
And yeah, they degraded the accuracy so only those needing to kill someone would be able to take FULL advantage....Geochashing WOULD be less challenging if the signals were allowed to be as accurate as they could be without a secret decoder ring.
But, the time the satellite sends is fed into a computer that knows how far away that satellite was supposed to be...and essentially triangulates its position, based upon how far it is from each satellite, etc...
If two buses in space, traveling towards each other, each at near light speed, were to crash head on....they probably would not have seen each other's head lights approaching....(I suppose hitting the horn would be equally, if not more pointless...)...the particles would collide at ~ double the speed of light....
Now, as motion is a relative term, it seems logical that the relative motion of the particles hitting each other at double the speed of light might turn each other into energy....
At a minimum, the insurance would likely write them both off as complete losses, unless the company counts the energy created vs the matter destroyed...complicating the deductable, etc.
Now, of course I was a bit tongue in cheek about spacing curving back upon itself as the ultimate rounding error, but, my point is that telling me I have to believe something because there are forces at play greater than a human can comprehend hits a nerve.
I believe we can eventually understand everything, or, as is most likely, every thing will be eventually understood by at least someone....but no one will ever individually understand everything.
I also believe that there is no beginning, and no end to space....its just never ending in all directions PLACE, that may or may not be populated by stuff at any given point, at any given time.
I also believe that time is not a thing that can be acted upon...it is analogous to space, its merely the chronological space things occur within...but, it passes, whether or not anything happens...
Its just a way to refer to when something occurred.
We do NOT even have a universal clock...one that would agree with another big bang's inhabitant's clock....we can say, well, this atom will be the same, and it vibrates at this frequency very accurately, etc....
That's nice, but I think the point was made that we really do not even know which way we are moving, except relative to other objects we can detect - and there are seeming more that we cannot detect, that we can detect.
If there are other buses going by us, we probably can't even see them, unless they hit something.
So gravity can't warp time, maybe the perception of it, maybe the measurement of it...but its not a thing to be acted upon, it is merely a construct.
So, I am human, so I have to take your word for it that if the bus goes fast enough, time stops?
IIRC, if matter were to exceed the speed of light, it is supposed to be converted to energy....
Now, can it complete that transition if time stops?
So, if the bus can't actually GO faster than the speed of light, because time slows at it approaches it, and therefore could stop if one reached it, etc...then, matter could never actually turn into energy.
Movement is relative to distance and time....if time stops, can there still be movement?
What would the bus's speedometer say if time stopped....it was was JUST about to say the speed of light...and, then, what?
I suppose headlights on a bus that can go that fast would be somewhat pointless....as the bus would be essentially keeping up with its beams.
I wonder if we turned the bus around, and drove ~ at the speed of light in reverse, if it would appear to us that the headlights beams were merely anchored at some point behind us, and grew longer towards us as we drove away?
If we drove in reverse FASTER than the speed of light, would the beams behind us be invisible to us?
What if matter flying at near light speed, from another distant big bang, flying parallel to our near light speed course, were to pass us...could we see it, or would it be invisible, as it was - to our view, going by at about double the speed of light?
As we must have an infinite number of big bangs occurring across the entire space system, stuff like this must be flying by all the time....and, I'm sure, colliding as well.
For all we know, the passing of this across us creates the equivalent (Not literally, the equivalent/analogous) of a static electric charge related to mass...and that's all we call gravity...and why mass seems to attract mass, etc.
This may have even started before busing.
So - I'm sure gravity does some odd things, heck, just playing with magnets can keep me amused for quite a while...but, time....no, don't buy it.....its not a real thing....its just a concept.
I still do not think that time will slow, speed up, or in anyway be impacted, by the objects speed through it...
I could understand if matter broke down into energy...that has plausibility, just like early planes broke apart when they hit the sound barrier...matter may break apart when the speed exceeds the cohesive forces that render it as matter.
So - the matter may be now energy...but, I can't see how an imaginary construct would be impacted by the transformation.
I agree that a GPS works....mine does, its great.
It relies on those geosynchronous satellites to say what time it is, over and over again....and for my GPS unit to say, hmmmm....look at what time it was when # 12 sent the message compared to the others, we must not be in Kansas anymore, etc.
And yeah, they degraded the accuracy so only those needing to kill someone would be able to take FULL advantage....Geochashing WOULD be less challenging if the signals were allowed to be as accurate as they could be without a secret decoder ring.
But, the time the satellite sends is fed into a computer that knows how far away that satellite was supposed to be...and essentially triangulates its position, based upon how far it is from each satellite, etc...
If two buses in space, traveling towards each other, each at near light speed, were to crash head on....they probably would not have seen each other's head lights approaching....(I suppose hitting the horn would be equally, if not more pointless...)...the particles would collide at ~ double the speed of light....
Now, as motion is a relative term, it seems logical that the relative motion of the particles hitting each other at double the speed of light might turn each other into energy....
At a minimum, the insurance would likely write them both off as complete losses, unless the company counts the energy created vs the matter destroyed...complicating the deductable, etc.
Now, of course I was a bit tongue in cheek about spacing curving back upon itself as the ultimate rounding error, but, my point is that telling me I have to believe something because there are forces at play greater than a human can comprehend hits a nerve.
I believe we can eventually understand everything, or, as is most likely, every thing will be eventually understood by at least someone....but no one will ever individually understand everything.
I also believe that there is no beginning, and no end to space....its just never ending in all directions PLACE, that may or may not be populated by stuff at any given point, at any given time.
I also believe that time is not a thing that can be acted upon...it is analogous to space, its merely the chronological space things occur within...but, it passes, whether or not anything happens...
Its just a way to refer to when something occurred.
We do NOT even have a universal clock...one that would agree with another big bang's inhabitant's clock....we can say, well, this atom will be the same, and it vibrates at this frequency very accurately, etc....
That's nice, but I think the point was made that we really do not even know which way we are moving, except relative to other objects we can detect - and there are seeming more that we cannot detect, that we can detect.
If there are other buses going by us, we probably can't even see them, unless they hit something.
So gravity can't warp time, maybe the perception of it, maybe the measurement of it...but its not a thing to be acted upon, it is merely a construct.
QUOTE
TEEJ Posted: Mar 15 2008, 01:56 PM OK - as for biological systems slowing down because they are traveling faster.....naw, I don't buy it logically.
what is illogical about it ? you can use cell division as a time keeping device. although it is not superior to a clock that uses for example the vibrations of an atom, but you can say my spaceship is traveling xkm per cell division.
if a clock on earth records a round trip of a rocket traveling at 0.999c, to the nearest star as 8 years and the clock on the rocket records 2 months, http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node140.html , there is no doubt that on board the rocket, the trip will only take 2 months (length contraction comes into play for the passenger) so, if the biological system does not slow down also, and instead you calculate how many heart beats the passenger experiences based on the earth clock the passengers heart has made 2 months of heartbeats in 8 years, the passenger heart beat has reduced to less than 2 beats per minute. not even free divers get this low, 15 beats per minute is what some free divers get down to but they keep it down for 8 minutes, not 2 months
if you can not use the clock that is being carried as an accurate time keeping device for the situation you are in, which clock can you use ? are you suggesting there is an absolute time ?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| TEEJ Posted: Mar 15 2008, 01:56 PM OK - as for biological systems slowing down because they are traveling faster.....naw, I don't buy it logically. |
what is illogical about it ?
you can use cell division as a time keeping device. although it is not superior to a clock that uses for example the vibrations of an atom, but you can say my spaceship is traveling xkm per cell division.
if a clock on earth records a round trip of a rocket traveling at 0.999c, to the nearest star as 8 years and the clock on the rocket records 2 months, http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node140.html , there is no doubt that on board the rocket, the trip will only take 2 months (length contraction comes into play for the passenger) so, if the biological system does not slow down also, and instead you calculate how many heart beats the passenger experiences based on the earth clock the passengers heart has made 2 months of heartbeats in 8 years, the passenger heart beat has reduced to less than 2 beats per minute. not even free divers get this low, 15 beats per minute is what some free divers get down to but they keep it down for 8 minutes, not 2 months
if you can not use the clock that is being carried as an accurate time keeping device for the situation you are in, which clock can you use ? are you suggesting there is an absolute time ?
yor_on Posted on Today at 1:54 AM BTW: I'm getting kind of suspicious here TEEJ, wanna come clean*?*
is N O M having another sweepstake, i missed the last one, if so can i put a fiver on OldWoman1904 ?
you can use cell division as a time keeping device. although it is not superior to a clock that uses for example the vibrations of an atom, but you can say my spaceship is traveling xkm per cell division.
if a clock on earth records a round trip of a rocket traveling at 0.999c, to the nearest star as 8 years and the clock on the rocket records 2 months, http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node140.html , there is no doubt that on board the rocket, the trip will only take 2 months (length contraction comes into play for the passenger) so, if the biological system does not slow down also, and instead you calculate how many heart beats the passenger experiences based on the earth clock the passengers heart has made 2 months of heartbeats in 8 years, the passenger heart beat has reduced to less than 2 beats per minute. not even free divers get this low, 15 beats per minute is what some free divers get down to but they keep it down for 8 minutes, not 2 months
if you can not use the clock that is being carried as an accurate time keeping device for the situation you are in, which clock can you use ? are you suggesting there is an absolute time ?
yor_on Posted on Today at 1:54 AM BTW: I'm getting kind of suspicious here TEEJ, wanna come clean*?*
is N O M having another sweepstake, i missed the last one, if so can i put a fiver on OldWoman1904 ?
Hi yor_on, TEEJ, kjw et al,
QUOTE (yor_on+)
Given slow light, what can we do with it? One interesting proposal is that of an optical black hole, an idea put forward by Leonhardt and Piwnicki [169]. The idea is that if light were to interact with a vortex of some sort, e.g. in a Bose-Einstein condensate, then if it were moving slowly enough it would be sucked into the vortex in the same way that matter is sucked into a black hole in space.
Thus a black hole that could be built within a laboratory could be possible. This effect arises as light sees a moving dielectric medium as an effective gravitational field. It may be that the vortices recently achieved in Bose-Einstein condensates are too small to work effectively as optical black holes. In that case it may be possible to use Laguerre-Gaussian beams to create a vortex within a sample of hot gas or to carry out EIT within a rotating solid medium.
Thus a black hole that could be built within a laboratory could be possible. This effect arises as light sees a moving dielectric medium as an effective gravitational field. It may be that the vortices recently achieved in Bose-Einstein condensates are too small to work effectively as optical black holes. In that case it may be possible to use Laguerre-Gaussian beams to create a vortex within a sample of hot gas or to carry out EIT within a rotating solid medium.
Since I said that at least one form of this experiment has already been accomplished in the Lab.
http://www.physorg.com/news124041342.html
Soon I expect the next interesting experiments to be completed. One is Optical Wormholes through space which is the inverse trick of creating limited optical cloaking devices recently being demonstrated using metamaterials...
http://www.physorg.com/news94744716.html
http://www.physorg.com/news111414146.html
http://www.physorg.com/news97945163.html
Lots of interesting things to see and do boys and girls. Pity they are not nice things to see and do.... Oh well.
http://www.physorg.com/news124041342.html
Soon I expect the next interesting experiments to be completed. One is Optical Wormholes through space which is the inverse trick of creating limited optical cloaking devices recently being demonstrated using metamaterials...
http://www.physorg.com/news94744716.html
http://www.physorg.com/news111414146.html
http://www.physorg.com/news97945163.html
Lots of interesting things to see and do boys and girls. Pity they are not nice things to see and do.... Oh well.
QUOTE (TEEJ+)
So, I am human, so I have to take your word for it that if the bus goes fast enough, time stops?
No... You don't need to take my word for it. Physics is not like politics or religion they are "real things" you can touch and hold in your hand. No beliefs are needed. The measurement of time tells us the facts of what is happening. You can hold a GPS unit in your hand and that can tell you a lot about the world around you... Do not believe what people tell you believe just what you can see touch and feel... that is sufficient. Nobody who holds a $200 GPS in their hand, use it, then say they don't believe in Special and General Relativity... They would be lying to themselves.
Some have said that travel faster than light turns particles into tachyons... whose speed tends to infinity... that also is not observed. Once again the experimental facts indicate that we can understand antiparticles using the Feynman-Stueckelberg Interpretation of Spacetime and Antimatter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiparticle
Experiment is the only test of relative truth. When you have two or more possible ways to understand a mechanism a well designed experiment is needed to distinguish. It is not an "absolute Truth" it is a "relative Truth"... For us who ask "poor questions" of the Universe we get answers "good enough" to allow us to logically advance to the next theory or next experiment to refine our skills.
Cheers
QUOTE
if matter were to exceed the speed of light, it is supposed to be converted to energy....
Now, can it complete that transition if time stops?
You have answered your own question. You have never read anywhere that traveling faster than light converts "stuff" to energy. Just does not happen. Traveling faster than light has only one known experimental outcome that fits experiment... it travels back in time.Now, can it complete that transition if time stops?
Some have said that travel faster than light turns particles into tachyons... whose speed tends to infinity... that also is not observed. Once again the experimental facts indicate that we can understand antiparticles using the Feynman-Stueckelberg Interpretation of Spacetime and Antimatter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiparticle
Experiment is the only test of relative truth. When you have two or more possible ways to understand a mechanism a well designed experiment is needed to distinguish. It is not an "absolute Truth" it is a "relative Truth"... For us who ask "poor questions" of the Universe we get answers "good enough" to allow us to logically advance to the next theory or next experiment to refine our skills.
Cheers
Awh I'm getting a hmm oh oh reading about those experiments GoodElf.
That must make me a very sick puppy :)
Or should it be read as healthy?
As it is said to be healthy to have at least one a day?
Ahh apple I mean?
Well enough about vegetarianism now...
We may not be able to go the way we're used to (man-power/hours/material etc) when developing new ways of exploring space.
But if we continue in this manner I pretty much guarantee that we will solve space travel in some way.
And for a much more affordable price too:
And I really got a kick out of your buses TEEJ.
I want one of those. Turning at light speed, by turning the wheel, or?
Anchor ahoy, that's when one breaks right, yep I got a drivers license too.
Ah well, gotta follow those links now :)
That must make me a very sick puppy :)
Or should it be read as healthy?
As it is said to be healthy to have at least one a day?
Ahh apple I mean?
Well enough about vegetarianism now...
We may not be able to go the way we're used to (man-power/hours/material etc) when developing new ways of exploring space.
But if we continue in this manner I pretty much guarantee that we will solve space travel in some way.
And for a much more affordable price too:
And I really got a kick out of your buses TEEJ.
I want one of those. Turning at light speed, by turning the wheel, or?
Anchor ahoy, that's when one breaks right, yep I got a drivers license too.
Ah well, gotta follow those links now :)
Hello GoodElf, et al.
Here is a "living" document by Neil Ashby on the GPS system.
What I find interesting is the 24 hour period that shows up in the TOPEX clock bias.
User posted image: http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/fig_3.html
Can this period be explained by changes in speed?
Here is a "living" document by Neil Ashby on the GPS system.
What I find interesting is the 24 hour period that shows up in the TOPEX clock bias.
User posted image: http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/fig_3.html
Can this period be explained by changes in speed?
That last one GoodElf
http://www.physorg.com/news97945163.html
What do they mean by this?
" Until now, however, it was not clear whether photons particles that make up all forms of light can split and form new waves when the light source is close to the object. If we use ray optic techniques where light travels in beams - photons break down at close range and the object does not appear invisible. If we study light as it travels in waves however, invisibility is maintained. "
Either it is invisible and then they can't diversify it as in reality both effects coexist
Or else it will only be it for one point of view, which really gives me a headache?
If they believe it to be working as we see it 'normally'?
http://www.physorg.com/news97945163.html
What do they mean by this?
" Until now, however, it was not clear whether photons particles that make up all forms of light can split and form new waves when the light source is close to the object. If we use ray optic techniques where light travels in beams - photons break down at close range and the object does not appear invisible. If we study light as it travels in waves however, invisibility is maintained. "
Either it is invisible and then they can't diversify it as in reality both effects coexist
Or else it will only be it for one point of view, which really gives me a headache?
If they believe it to be working as we see it 'normally'?
Sory TEEJ, it's your thread.
Kind'a confused today :)
Kind'a confused today :)
Good Elf:
If the travelers clock slows, the time intervals are longer, but the rate of outside activity depends on direction. More events per second forward, less in the backward direction and approx. the same to either side.
Doppler shift is blue toward the source and red away from the source.
If you are watching clocks travelling in both directions, remember, clocks are just frequencies.
QUOTE
As a traveler nears the speed of light compared with an external observer the number of events being experienced by the traveler per second of observer elapsed time would be relatively small.
If the travelers clock slows, the time intervals are longer, but the rate of outside activity depends on direction. More events per second forward, less in the backward direction and approx. the same to either side.
Doppler shift is blue toward the source and red away from the source.
If you are watching clocks travelling in both directions, remember, clocks are just frequencies.
Hi phyti,
QUOTE (phyti+)
Good Elf:
QUOTE (Good Elf+)
As a traveler nears the speed of light compared with an external observer the number of events being experienced by the traveler per second of observer elapsed time would be relatively small.
If the travelers clock slows, the time intervals are longer, but the rate of outside activity depends on direction. More events per second forward, less in the backward direction and approx. the same to either side.
Doppler shift is blue toward the source and red away from the source.
If you are watching clocks travelling in both directions, remember, clocks are just frequencies.
Doppler shift is blue toward the source and red away from the source.
If you are watching clocks travelling in both directions, remember, clocks are just frequencies.
We must always be mindful that light always travels at the speed of light in the "medium"... the "medium" we are speaking about here is the "vacuum" of space. Once you approach near the speed of light the differential 'flow" of events "cause" the differences in appreciable time. For instance you and I are moving relatively near the speed of light relative to "something" out there in the Cosmos (I don't know what it is and it does not matter but I am sure that there is something out there right now). The whole point about Relativity is "we" do not sense that relative motion from our "rest frame". Relativity is "between frames" and it is just a way to measure the changes to apply to take our measuring rods and clocks from one rest frame to another in relative motion. That is all relativity really is. Nobody can sense this motion "internally" because Relativity says there is no such thing as "absolute motion".
Clocks are indeed "frequencies" and the measuring of time is recorded by how much has passed by counting "events". Think of them as "ticks" if you wish but ultimately we measure these "events" to "count time". The "events" will be related to the absorption of individual photons which the exchange forces linking from one frame to another. Photons are the exchange forces of our Universe and connect change in momentum with impulse and this is how we "respond to the passage of time". It is important to understand that while clocks can be made to a high standard the frequency measured must always be measured in the rest frame of the clock to determine the time. It is important to note that "clocks" should not be subject to acceleration otherwise they will become differentially out of synchronization and special relativity is all about clock synchronization. Time Dilation occurs between frames in motion and it is not a linear function nor is it a symmetric function. Relativistic Doppler Shift is simply the observation of wavefronts of light emitted by a high speed source. These wavefronts can be "crushed together" or "stretched apart" as you have stated by way of Relativistic Doppler Effects due to relative motion between sources and sinks. Other effects due to motion which are only optical effects include Stellar Aberration and "headlighting" which affects the appearance of the intensity of "oncoming" light. These two effects can be compared with the concept of running in the rain... Assuming he the droplets are falling vertically the droplets approach the runner from apparently different directions depending on the runner's speed and they hit with a higher intensity the faster you run. Light does not experience time itself and always moves at C. Uncorrected for additional effects (such as frame dragging), the optical velocity of recession of any object will always appear to be at most only 1/2 the speed of light while the apparent approach of an object can appear to be any speed up to "infinity" as observed from the frame of the low velocity observer.
For instance the approach of an object like M87's Jet toward the Earth apparently provides the illusion of six times the speed of light. The proper motion of the particles in the Jet "appear" to be moving toward us at six times the speed of light. That is what simple uncorrected optical parallax would reveal. This single point of view observation is obviously not the true case and every physical object is constrained to move at less than the speed of light. The difference in the observations is due entirely to the different points of view of the single observer and his clock and multiple observers with synchronized clocks (all in the one "observer" rest frame). You must "adjust" for propagation times from the source to the observers to reconcile the two kinds of readings.
Doppler Shift is not really Relativity, Time Dilation is and TD is not dependent on direction of motion, it is a cumulative quantity depending on path and history. TD carries travelers only into the future and never into the past (... aside from General Relativistic considerations which are not being considered here). Time Dilation is a stretching of traveler time relative to observer time and is what relatively moving clocks experience and it does not depend on the observation of external frames of motion, only on initial and final position and the velocity history of the path which is the moving object's worldline in spacetime. In the same sense this worldline is connected intimately with the idea of length contraction. It is a true relativity effect as well.
An "extreme consideration" is the photons of light themselves which move on Null Geodesics in spacetime. This means photons suffer the most extreme form of time dilation and length contraction possible but this is just one extreme for any moving particle of which light is just an "exceptional case". The Null Geodesic is a path of zero length and zero time in spacetime along which the "particles" experience no time or displacements in space.... They are 'zero length". Other observers in other frames of reference see quite different measurements for the same object. Obviously all other observers see finite segment lengths for near Null Geodesic paths. This is why it is important to consider space and time as a single entity (spacetime) and not two distinct entities. This geometry defines what we think of as space and time around this relativistic concept.
For instance the way Time Dilation is usually expressed is in the "Twin Paradox". One twin ages considerably more than the other on a round trip to a distant destination at relativistic speed. On the trip the relatively high velocity twin can adjust his speed to reduce the period of his journey to any arbitrary interval of ships time. A traveler could do a round trip (in principle) around the Milky Way Galaxy, which is around 100,000 Light Years long, in as short a period as he/she desired. That is the geodesic the space ship moved along can be made (in principle) as short as you want (as near to a Null Geodesic as you choose... provided you are supplied with the requisite energy). Unfortunately/fortunately light requires that a minimum of 200,000 Years of Earth time to elapse on such a journey. It is not symmetric otherwise when a traveler returned the moving clocks would match up. They most certainly do not there will be a "slight difference" of at least 200,000 years between them no matter how fast the traveler moved. Along the way the traveler would think that the speed of the space ship could be accelerated to "infinity" (in principle). There is no apparent upper bound to his/her speed. Fortunately Relativity allows the traveler to do this and unfortunately also due to Relativity time will elapse faster on Earth comparatively speaking to internal clocks on the space ship. What Relativity "gives" it also "takes away". Alternatively from the point of view of Earth based observers they would apparently see this space ship moving at near the speed of light (frozen in time ... almost... on the light cone wall). Moving away on the outward journey at 1/2 C and after 200,000 years (the entire time for a round trip) Earth observers would see the space ship "suddenly" approach the earth at nearly infinite velocity. This is just reinforcing the fact that the light itself will always beat the traveler back home and the history of the inward journey back to base is compressed into a short period of time as determined from that single observation post. If a number of observers were placed along the way out and back and if they carried clocks and measuring rods that were used to measure position and times... there will be no anomaly as our traveler passes all the way points "on time" at slightly less than C. The whole idea of Special Relativity is extremely simple.
For a bit more on this idea have a look here...
Simple Question: Good Elf
...or try this site below to gain an understanding of how a single point of observation distorts what is seen.
Visualizing Relativity ANU
I also use the word "seen" very loosely since it is not possible to use your natural eyes and gain any real understanding of these events since the times and distances are beyond our capacity to sense. It is a very good thing too that we are not able to sense such short times with our senses otherwise we could never enjoy a really good movie. This "model" is really a simulation of how a World would look if the speed of light was some incredibly low velocity like 25 kph.
Cheers
Clocks are indeed "frequencies" and the measuring of time is recorded by how much has passed by counting "events". Think of them as "ticks" if you wish but ultimately we measure these "events" to "count time". The "events" will be related to the absorption of individual photons which the exchange forces linking from one frame to another. Photons are the exchange forces of our Universe and connect change in momentum with impulse and this is how we "respond to the passage of time". It is important to understand that while clocks can be made to a high standard the frequency measured must always be measured in the rest frame of the clock to determine the time. It is important to note that "clocks" should not be subject to acceleration otherwise they will become differentially out of synchronization and special relativity is all about clock synchronization. Time Dilation occurs between frames in motion and it is not a linear function nor is it a symmetric function. Relativistic Doppler Shift is simply the observation of wavefronts of light emitted by a high speed source. These wavefronts can be "crushed together" or "stretched apart" as you have stated by way of Relativistic Doppler Effects due to relative motion between sources and sinks. Other effects due to motion which are only optical effects include Stellar Aberration and "headlighting" which affects the appearance of the intensity of "oncoming" light. These two effects can be compared with the concept of running in the rain... Assuming he the droplets are falling vertically the droplets approach the runner from apparently different directions depending on the runner's speed and they hit with a higher intensity the faster you run. Light does not experience time itself and always moves at C. Uncorrected for additional effects (such as frame dragging), the optical velocity of recession of any object will always appear to be at most only 1/2 the speed of light while the apparent approach of an object can appear to be any speed up to "infinity" as observed from the frame of the low velocity observer.
For instance the approach of an object like M87's Jet toward the Earth apparently provides the illusion of six times the speed of light. The proper motion of the particles in the Jet "appear" to be moving toward us at six times the speed of light. That is what simple uncorrected optical parallax would reveal. This single point of view observation is obviously not the true case and every physical object is constrained to move at less than the speed of light. The difference in the observations is due entirely to the different points of view of the single observer and his clock and multiple observers with synchronized clocks (all in the one "observer" rest frame). You must "adjust" for propagation times from the source to the observers to reconcile the two kinds of readings.
Doppler Shift is not really Relativity, Time Dilation is and TD is not dependent on direction of motion, it is a cumulative quantity depending on path and history. TD carries travelers only into the future and never into the past (... aside from General Relativistic considerations which are not being considered here). Time Dilation is a stretching of traveler time relative to observer time and is what relatively moving clocks experience and it does not depend on the observation of external frames of motion, only on initial and final position and the velocity history of the path which is the moving object's worldline in spacetime. In the same sense this worldline is connected intimately with the idea of length contraction. It is a true relativity effect as well.
An "extreme consideration" is the photons of light themselves which move on Null Geodesics in spacetime. This means photons suffer the most extreme form of time dilation and length contraction possible but this is just one extreme for any moving particle of which light is just an "exceptional case". The Null Geodesic is a path of zero length and zero time in spacetime along which the "particles" experience no time or displacements in space.... They are 'zero length". Other observers in other frames of reference see quite different measurements for the same object. Obviously all other observers see finite segment lengths for near Null Geodesic paths. This is why it is important to consider space and time as a single entity (spacetime) and not two distinct entities. This geometry defines what we think of as space and time around this relativistic concept.
For instance the way Time Dilation is usually expressed is in the "Twin Paradox". One twin ages considerably more than the other on a round trip to a distant destination at relativistic speed. On the trip the relatively high velocity twin can adjust his speed to reduce the period of his journey to any arbitrary interval of ships time. A traveler could do a round trip (in principle) around the Milky Way Galaxy, which is around 100,000 Light Years long, in as short a period as he/she desired. That is the geodesic the space ship moved along can be made (in principle) as short as you want (as near to a Null Geodesic as you choose... provided you are supplied with the requisite energy). Unfortunately/fortunately light requires that a minimum of 200,000 Years of Earth time to elapse on such a journey. It is not symmetric otherwise when a traveler returned the moving clocks would match up. They most certainly do not there will be a "slight difference" of at least 200,000 years between them no matter how fast the traveler moved. Along the way the traveler would think that the speed of the space ship could be accelerated to "infinity" (in principle). There is no apparent upper bound to his/her speed. Fortunately Relativity allows the traveler to do this and unfortunately also due to Relativity time will elapse faster on Earth comparatively speaking to internal clocks on the space ship. What Relativity "gives" it also "takes away". Alternatively from the point of view of Earth based observers they would apparently see this space ship moving at near the speed of light (frozen in time ... almost... on the light cone wall). Moving away on the outward journey at 1/2 C and after 200,000 years (the entire time for a round trip) Earth observers would see the space ship "suddenly" approach the earth at nearly infinite velocity. This is just reinforcing the fact that the light itself will always beat the traveler back home and the history of the inward journey back to base is compressed into a short period of time as determined from that single observation post. If a number of observers were placed along the way out and back and if they carried clocks and measuring rods that were used to measure position and times... there will be no anomaly as our traveler passes all the way points "on time" at slightly less than C. The whole idea of Special Relativity is extremely simple.
For a bit more on this idea have a look here...
Simple Question: Good Elf
...or try this site below to gain an understanding of how a single point of observation distorts what is seen.
Visualizing Relativity ANU
I also use the word "seen" very loosely since it is not possible to use your natural eyes and gain any real understanding of these events since the times and distances are beyond our capacity to sense. It is a very good thing too that we are not able to sense such short times with our senses otherwise we could never enjoy a really good movie.
This "model" is really a simulation of how a World would look if the speed of light was some incredibly low velocity like 25 kph.Cheers
Hi yor_on, Montec et al,
QUOTE (yor_on+)
That last one GoodElf
http://www.physorg.com/news97945163.html
What do they mean by this?
"Until now, however, it was not clear whether photons particles that make up all forms of light can split and form new waves when the light source is close to the object. If we use ray optic techniques where light travels in beams - photons break down at close range and the object does not appear invisible. If we study light as it travels in waves however, invisibility is maintained. "
Either it is invisible and then they can't diversify it as in reality both effects coexist
Or else it will only be it for one point of view, which really gives me a headache?
If they believe it to be working as we see it 'normally'?
http://www.physorg.com/news97945163.html
What do they mean by this?
"Until now, however, it was not clear whether photons particles that make up all forms of light can split and form new waves when the light source is close to the object. If we use ray optic techniques where light travels in beams - photons break down at close range and the object does not appear invisible. If we study light as it travels in waves however, invisibility is maintained. "
Either it is invisible and then they can't diversify it as in reality both effects coexist
Or else it will only be it for one point of view, which really gives me a headache?
If they believe it to be working as we see it 'normally'?
It is "dumbed down" idea there. Ray optics is not really the way light travels. Light is a spreading phenomenon. Clearly within a wavelength of a source or a sink the behavior of light is quite different to the way it travels in a Fresnel or Far Field Condition. Evanescent waves are important here since the meta-meterials used must be specifically constructed to bend light around a target effectively forming an optical instanton at all optical frequencies to be completely "invisible". To do this rigidity is a prerequisite since Harry Potters "Cloak" does not define an enforcible "zone" in which to bend the light around. In order to be entirely and convincingly invisible it must give the appearance of a goldfish bowl made of and having the same refractive index of air yet at close range in the evanescent zone the light must be bent around the object "symmetrically" to provide a "bubble" in it's heart that is shrouded from all the surrounding rays. It would be as if flowlines of light around the core were smooth such that photons are not absorbed or deflected at a short range away from this object but within a very short evanescent distance it would have a strong influence. It is a complex problem but as the pundits say this can be done within the decade.
John Pendry has worked extensively on negative refractive index materials. These affect surrounding space from a distance away from the evanescent zone effectively restoring the source information. Special construction techniques of these optical meta-materials can potentially provide multiple overlapping spectral bands of "warping" around the object depending on wavelength. I suspect it will not be perfect. One slight problem is "something" must protrude to provide some external vision of the exterior of this object otherwise this is a recipe for not only "invisibility" but "blindness".
What I am hoping from this technology is in the development of different types of "optical" radiation shielding for use in future interplanetary and interstellar flight.
John Pendry has worked extensively on negative refractive index materials. These affect surrounding space from a distance away from the evanescent zone effectively restoring the source information. Special construction techniques of these optical meta-materials can potentially provide multiple overlapping spectral bands of "warping" around the object depending on wavelength. I suspect it will not be perfect. One slight problem is "something" must protrude to provide some external vision of the exterior of this object otherwise this is a recipe for not only "invisibility" but "blindness".
What I am hoping from this technology is in the development of different types of "optical" radiation shielding for use in future interplanetary and interstellar flight.
QUOTE (Montec+)
Hello GoodElf, et al.
Here is a "living" document by Neil Ashby on the GPS system.
What I find interesting is the 24 hour period that shows up in the TOPEX clock bias.
User posted image: http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articl...03-1/fig_3.html
Can this period be explained by changes in speed?
Here is a "living" document by Neil Ashby on the GPS system.
What I find interesting is the 24 hour period that shows up in the TOPEX clock bias.
User posted image: http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articl...03-1/fig_3.html
Can this period be explained by changes in speed?
Yep... seen that document... Ur... Tough question. Once again it is 'old data" (1995) and the exact conditions of the experiment have not been fully explained. It is clear that the relativistic effects can be "removed" to increase the overall accuracy of GPS location data. Of course this probably is the result of both Doppler effects (and time dilation) due to motion and General Relativistic Red and Blue shift. What I find of importance is the assessment that through all of this the interpretations of these effects can only be reconciled by an invocation of Einstein Relativity and by no other interpretation. That is the underlying fact. naturally we need to take them on their word. Of course this does not determine any frame dragging effects due to General Relativity. That is still an issue to be settled by the Gravity Probe B results. There has been some difficulty in this data and it was not helped by the premature failure of the maneuvering thrusters and coolant system. I believe that the preliminary results are "supposed to be" in line with GR. That is the really interesting question.
So the answer from me is "I dunno??"
Cheers
So the answer from me is "I dunno??"
Cheers
kjw -
I like the idea of a cell division experiment...as the little buggers are relatively predictable....
A simple control group of colonies, maybe suspended in one spot high above the earth, compared to two other group of colonies (E coli for example...)....propelled as fast as we can make them go, etc, one East, one West....for a long enough period to allow enough cell division to occur....I think, ideally, its around 27 minutes per division under ideal conditions for the quick dividers.
We could send them both off on their way, at different speeds, against, and with the rotation of the earth....and later do a simple head count to see how many we have.
If the fastest group (Flying counter to Earth's rotation) has the fewest colonies, the suspended group (Not moving relative to earth's rotation, but subjected to similar radiation, altitude, etc...) was in the midddle, and the slowest (traveling With the rotation...), had the MOST colonies, then their biological clocks WERE impacted, and I'm convinced.
I like it.
Hmmmm....didn't one of the clock experiments simply use jets flying around the globe...just run it long enough to get statistically valid data.
It sounds too simple, did anyone already DO this?
Wait a minute, maybe....That whole "Life in the Fast Lane" concept....isn't that mostly associated with dying sooner, rather than living longer?
I'm going to google bacteria and time dilation....It HAS to have already been done, its too simple...hell, they could have taken some petri dishes along with the damn clocks...
OK, I can't find anything on this tonight, - anyone else know of an experiment like this?
I KNOW it works for the GPS units, and the other CLOCK experiments...which have me COMPLETELY convinved that we can screw up clocks with gravity and motion relative to it.
I like the idea of a cell division experiment...as the little buggers are relatively predictable....
A simple control group of colonies, maybe suspended in one spot high above the earth, compared to two other group of colonies (E coli for example...)....propelled as fast as we can make them go, etc, one East, one West....for a long enough period to allow enough cell division to occur....I think, ideally, its around 27 minutes per division under ideal conditions for the quick dividers.
We could send them both off on their way, at different speeds, against, and with the rotation of the earth....and later do a simple head count to see how many we have.
If the fastest group (Flying counter to Earth's rotation) has the fewest colonies, the suspended group (Not moving relative to earth's rotation, but subjected to similar radiation, altitude, etc...) was in the midddle, and the slowest (traveling With the rotation...), had the MOST colonies, then their biological clocks WERE impacted, and I'm convinced.
I like it.
Hmmmm....didn't one of the clock experiments simply use jets flying around the globe...just run it long enough to get statistically valid data.
It sounds too simple, did anyone already DO this?
Wait a minute, maybe....That whole "Life in the Fast Lane" concept....isn't that mostly associated with dying sooner, rather than living longer?
I'm going to google bacteria and time dilation....It HAS to have already been done, its too simple...hell, they could have taken some petri dishes along with the damn clocks...
OK, I can't find anything on this tonight, - anyone else know of an experiment like this?
I KNOW it works for the GPS units, and the other CLOCK experiments...which have me COMPLETELY convinved that we can screw up clocks with gravity and motion relative to it.
PS - Good Elf - Great links.
BTW - what does cps stand for?
I know its being used to describe the rotation of the GPS receiver, but, I would have been expecting rpm, or rps, or at least "c" (what ever that is...) per second?
Help?
BTW - what does cps stand for?
I know its being used to describe the rotation of the GPS receiver, but, I would have been expecting rpm, or rps, or at least "c" (what ever that is...) per second?
Help?
Hi TEEJ et al,
QUOTE (TEEJ+)
A simple control group of colonies, maybe suspended in one spot high above the earth, compared to two other group of colonies (E coli for example...)....propelled as fast as we can make them go, etc, one East, one West....for a long enough period to allow enough cell division to occur....I think, ideally, its around 27 minutes per division under ideal conditions for the quick dividers.
We could send them both off on their way, at different speeds, against, and with the rotation of the earth....and later do a simple head count to see how many we have. [..] Hmmmm....didn't one of the clock experiments simply use jets flying around the globe...just run it long enough to get statistically valid data.
We could send them both off on their way, at different speeds, against, and with the rotation of the earth....and later do a simple head count to see how many we have. [..] Hmmmm....didn't one of the clock experiments simply use jets flying around the globe...just run it long enough to get statistically valid data.
He he he... E. Coli are not good time keepers. Just how are you going to measure between 59 and 253 nanoseconds lifetime differences in the lifespan of the E. Coli? I suppose you could run this experiment for a 100 years flying 2 jumbo Jets continuously around the world giving these E. Coli the trips of their lives.. Making a grand difference of 590 microseconds to about 2530 microseconds between the colonies but how many E. Coli do you know that live for more than 100 years of age apiece???
Just take my word for it it will happen. I promise!!
Hafele and Keating Experiment
Cheers
Just take my word for it it will happen. I promise!!
Hafele and Keating Experiment
Cheers
Hi TEEJ,
QUOTE (TEEJ+)
BTW - what does cps stand for?
Sorry... CPS (cycles per second)... The GPS rotating 8 times per second.
Cheers
Cheers
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