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deadbeat
This is just unbelievable
Gorilla's rights

Atheist justification for ANIMAL RIGHTS on par with human ones.

and this quote from His Popeship Dawkins himself

QUOTE (dawkins+)

“On strictly scientific grounds, there’s no reason why the earth shouldn’t simply blow itself up now. . . . You can’t prove scientifically that that’s wrong. Wrong and right are not things that you can prove scientifically.” 


Holy crap.

Dawkins is off the talking points.

So, what say you Dawkin's worshippers to that?
DuzmA
Deadbeat don't try to shift focus from the pope's role in the sex scandal. You are a troll and you make me sick. All you are doing is embarrassing yourself.

Wrong and right cannot be proven scientifically and neither can exist without the other. They are totally subjective terms. How did you learn to type properly you idiot?
deadbeat
HAHAHAHAH

YOUR pope apparently thinks animal rights are on par with Human ones.

So all you Atheists gonna go Vegetarian now? Give Beavers the Vote? Hmmm?
DuzmA
I don't have a pope you piece of filth. What Dawkins says has no bearing on me in any way.
deadbeat
Well Richard Dawkins IS the most outspoken and wildly acclaimed Atheist by Atheists on this Forum.

So, yeah, he kind is your Pope.
buttershug
QUOTE (DuzmA+Jun 30 2008, 03:31 AM)
I don't have a pope you piece of filth. What Dawkins says has no bearing on me in any way.

Neither does Deadbeat.
He says he knows better than the Pope what Catholics believe.
DuzmA
What makes you think that I am an atheist deadbeat? Why won't you address the sex scandal bit?

Do other people speak for your beliefs? I'm telling you that I don't 'follow' Dawkins and I am the expert on my own beliefs.
deadbeat
QUOTE (DuzmA+Jun 30 2008, 03:41 AM)
What makes you think that I am an atheist deadbeat? Why won't you address the sex scandal bit?

Do other people speak for your beliefs? I'm telling you that I don't 'follow' Dawkins and I am the expert on my own beliefs.

HAHA if you are not an ATHEIST then this thread has nothing to do with you.

And your inappropriate mention of the Sex scandal has no place here either. Start a NEW thread, and do not pollute mine with your calumny and bigotry.
DuzmA
Its become clear that you are a sockpuppet. I'm not going to play with you anymore until you admit it. I don't know how we bought it for so long. You don't even know anything about catholicism. You should have claimed to be nondenominational or something that can be easily done off of the cuff.
deadbeat
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 30 2008, 03:37 AM)
Neither does Deadbeat.
He says he knows better than the Pope what Catholics believe.

HAHAHAHA

Okay you guys are killing me.

I do not think I know better than the Pope, I just know better than YOU what catholics believe, because I AM a catholic and know what I believe, and as for the Pope, I actually talk to a priest about it, not some Blog by a catholic hater.

but, back to Dawkins anyone?
DuzmA
Put a sock in it sockpuppet.
deadbeat
QUOTE (DuzmA+Jun 30 2008, 03:47 AM)
Its become clear that you are a sockpuppet. I'm not going to play with you anymore until you admit it. I don't know how we bought it for so long. You don't even know anything about catholicism. You should have claimed to be nondenominational or something that can be easily done off of the cuff.

HAHA Do not let the door hit ya...

Sockpuppets, now that is funny. I do not NEED a sockpuppet, I have been the same guy and consistent for years.

Unlike the Forum Mafia with admitted sockpuppets like evans and jeremy fisher, and of course MjolnirPants, but that last is probably because BDW got banned for a while, so not too terrible.

BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.
TheDoc
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 03:48 AM)
but, back to Dawkins anyone?

Nope.
deadbeat
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

So the Atheists are embarassed finally by the complete philosophical stupidity demonstrated by Richard Dawkins.

So much so they must resort to attacking me, HAHAHAHAHA

Wow, that dizzy feeling you are having is called cognitive dissonance.
DuzmA
Put a sock in it sockpuppet.
deadbeat
BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.

Hehe, see? I can repost too? Your juvenile attempt at debate (basically saying "SHUT UP") might not be the most effective method available to you.
TheDoc
Sod off.

Edit: This is my post #1900.
deadbeat
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 04:05 AM)
BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.

Hehe, see? I can repost too? Your juvenile attempt at debate (basically saying "SHUT UP") might not be the most effective method available to you.

Wow, intelligent rebuttal there.
TheDoc
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 04:12 AM)
Wow, intelligent rebuttal there.

You quoted your own post, genius! laugh.gif
Dabeer
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 12:05 AM)
BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.

Dawkins voiced his personal opinion. He does not speak for atheists, nor do we all agree with his opinions.

Simply because one individual in group X makes a fool of himself does not make all of group X fools, nor does it automatically make group Y right. You especially should know this, being one of many fools in the Christian group.
DuzmA
Quoting his own post was an admission of being a sockpuppet and of the absurdity of his claims. There is dignity in that deadbeat. Thanks.
Evans
LOL your right deadbit
it seams like dowkins protecting gorila becouse gorila is his intelectual pear LOL LOL!
TheDoc
QUOTE (Evans+Jun 30 2008, 04:29 AM)
LOL your right deadbit
it seams like dowkins protecting gorila becouse gorila is his intelectual pear LOL LOL!

laugh.gif laugh.gif
laugh.gif laugh.gif
Evans
QUOTE (TheDoc+Jun 30 2008, 04:40 AM)
laugh.gif laugh.gif
laugh.gif laugh.gif

WHAT YOUR LAUHGING AT? YOUR BETTAR GO TO MIROR AND SAY "I EVOLVED FROM POND SCUME" AND THEN LAUGH LOL!!!1

serieusly thou, your very uneducation, bucaese bible says man should everythintg becouse god created it to eat for man. GET EDUMACTION FOOL! LOL

....and now go prey to your Pope, richard dowkins LOL LOL!!!
TheDoc
QUOTE (Evans+Jun 30 2008, 04:43 AM)
WHAT YOUR LAUHGING AT? YOUR BETTAR GO TO MIROR AND SAY "I EVOLVED FROM POND SCUME" AND THEN LAUGH LOL!!!1

serieusly thou, your very uneducation, bucaese bible says man should everythintg becouse god created it to eat for man. GET EDUMACTION FOOL! LOL

....and now go prey to your Pope, richard dowkins LOL LOL!!!

laugh.gif laugh.gif
laugh.gif laugh.gif Brilliant!
deadbeat
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 04:05 AM)
BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.

Hehe, see? I can repost too? Your juvenile attempt at debate (basically saying "SHUT UP") might not be the most effective method available to you.

Well, so the Atheists have brought THEIR sockpuppet, how nice.

But staying on topic
DuzmA
You are a sockpuppet and a hack; no one wants this thread to go back to your absurd topic.
deadbeat
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 04:05 AM)
BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.

Hehe, see? I can repost too? Your juvenile attempt at debate (basically saying "SHUT UP") might not be the most effective method available to you.

And still quoting my own post, oh educated one.

Just did not want to retype it. You never know, someone with more than three firing brain cells might come along and actually discuss the OP
DuzmA
This topic doesn't really belong here does it? Dawkins may be an evolutionary biologist but you don't see people posting the opinions of random creationists in a forum designated for creation vs. evolution arguments. Why don't you go to a nice christian forum where someone might like you? Fraudulent hack.
deadbeat
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 04:05 AM)
BACK TO THE OP and Atheist belief in animal rights on par or equal to human rights...Or has Dawkins finally shown the complete bankruptcy of your supposed philosophy.

Hehe, see? I can repost too? Your juvenile attempt at debate (basically saying "SHUT UP") might not be the most effective method available to you.

Right. Well that just shows your level of intelligence. I am not nor have ever been a creationist, get a clue.

I started trying to discuss philosophy and the like, but the topics ALWAYS get moved here.

I support neither CS nor ID, but continue to defend my religion and my belief system from atheist fascists. It gets VERY tiresome listen to you guys crowing about your supposed intellectual superiority, and picking on the poor idiotic fundies, or contrived sockpuppets.

Your problem starting to dawn on you, is you THOUGHT I was one of those, and now you are finding that your wild assertions are not only untrue and unsupportable, but soon to be embarrassing.

Run, run to your mommy
excaza
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 29 2008, 10:18 PM)
This is just unbelievable
Gorilla's rights

Atheist justification for ANIMAL RIGHTS on par with human ones.

and this quote from His Popeship Dawkins himself

So you pulled a story from a blatantly biased source. Bravo

QUOTE
American Vision's mission statement reads, "Restoring America's Biblical Foundation—From Genesis to Revelation." This statement determines who we are, what projects we will do, and what battles we will wage.


That's like pulling a story about cattle farmers from a vegetarian site.
Dabeer
QUOTE (Dabeer+Jun 30 2008, 12:17 AM)
Dawkins voiced his personal opinion. He does not speak for atheists, nor do we all agree with his opinions.

Simply because one individual in group X makes a fool of himself does not make all of group X fools, nor does it automatically make group Y right. You especially should know this, being one of many fools in the Christian group.

See, I can quote my own post too. Did you happen to read it? I guess not, seeing as how you claimed nobody was discussing your point...

We don't care what Dawkins says, or what Dawkins believes. Our disbelief in your god has absolutely NOTHING to do with Dawkins, or with any other prominent atheist.

Faith does not belong in science. End of story.
MjolnirPants
Yanno, I bet any psychiatrist who browsed this forum would be purty interested in the way ole deadbeat keeps trying to criticize atheism. I bet he'd say it was symptomatic o some deep-seated insecurity. I know that's how I see it. smile.gif
newguy
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo hiding inside of a sock puppet+)
Yanno, I bet any psychiatrist who browsed this forum would be purty interested in the way ole deadbeat keeps trying to criticize atheism. I bet he'd say it was symptomatic o some deep-seated insecurity. I know that's how I see it.  smile.gif


BigDumbWeirdo hiding inside of a sock puppet:

LOL!!!

That's pretty funny coming from a guy who's not only hiding inside of a sock puppet, but also posts with a deliberately altered style in hopes to both deceive and not get his sorry butt banned and who leaves himself positive feedbackS(PLURAL!) through a sock puppet account. And a psychiatrist would be interested in deadbeat?!?

Wait for it...

PHYSICIAN, HEAL THYSELF!


Masked Marauder
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 03:29 AM)
HAHAHAHAH

YOUR pope apparently thinks animal rights are on par with Human ones.

So all you Atheists gonna go Vegetarian now? Give Beavers the Vote? Hmmm?

I still think catholic priests that have raped little boys ought to be thrown in the cage with the Ape and pump the ape up on some aphrodisiacs, and toss some female hormones on the priest, and watch the fun begin! tongue.gif

I would, however, feel very sorry for the ape, and we would probably be protested by PETA... ohmy.gif

Of course, based on the INCREDIBLE and well thought out research done by our comrade in arms, Bringer of Lite (beer), maybe we could observe the reverse of his theory about how man was created by Abel shagging a Gorilla. dry.gif

This time, the Gorilla shags the priest... anyone want to take bets on whether or not the priest gets pregnant? We might come up with a whole new race of pygmy ape shaggers.. or would that be giant priest shagger?

I get confused. blink.gif


I will admit, however, that would take a LOT of catholic priests out of circulation, wouldn't it?

MM

MjolnirPants
QUOTE (newguy+Jun 30 2008, 02:48 PM)
BigDumbWeirdo hiding inside of a sock puppet:

Hey newguy!
I see ya added trollin to yer list o christian behaviors.
So that makes:
Lyin
Hypocrisy
Whining
Insultin
Trollin
Yer really gettin up there, purty soon you'll be as bad as the catholic church wink.gif
newguy
QUOTE (BDW+)
Yer really gettin up there, purty soon you'll be as bad as the catholic church


BDW: You're already as bad as the Catholic church. You know, spending all that time in your sock puppet's backside... You like it in there, don't you? Well, that's enough for today...I'll let you get back to your *AHEM* "priestly duties". See you around.
philip347

With the first post in this thread, please note, as by the U.S. Pentagon’s says, (Don’t worry about global warming, start worrying about the ice age), it may be, the term lower animal, in reference to some of the current great apes, is no longer a valid term?

This notion is expressed, that usually with ice ages, there is an accompanying wave of evolution which takes place.

This new fact, has been verified with new extraordinary tool using sightings, of one where Organetangs known to hate water, have been seen swimming with spears to spear fish, retrieving them to eat.

This new factoid, also might be the reason for fungal outbreaks, in both plant and animal species, as it is known that fungal bacteria, act as plasticizers on the stance of DNA profiles, so making them malleable to change.

Since it is known that Earth based mankind is more than likely a hybrid creature, by military says in a documented outreach on O-part beings, then this fact would place mankind somewhere as a competitor within this known equation.

It may be, that if evolution is acting as the data presented here, says evolution with reference to more advanced primates is acting, then technically great apes may be on their way, to being termed as something other than great apes?
vkamath
QUOTE (deadbeat+)
This is just unbelievable
Gorilla's rights


What exactly is your argument?

Dawkins states clearly in the video that he is making a case based on emotion rather than science for the protection of Gorillas and other species. This video is about conservation of animal species and NOT about Atheism.


QUOTE (deadbeat+)
Atheist justification for ANIMAL RIGHTS on par with human ones.


You are exaggerating.


QUOTE (deadbeat+)
Holy crap.

Dawkins is off the talking points.

So, what say you Dawkin's worshippers to that?


Aren't you the one who agrees that morality is subjective? How is that different from Dawkins statement- "Wrong and right are not things that you can prove scientifically"?
DuzmA
I am also for animal rights to a degree. I don't see whats wrong with providing protection for our primate relatives that feel fear and pain in ways that are so similar to the way that we feel them.
deadbeat
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 30 2008, 08:33 PM)
QUOTE (deadbeat+)
This is just unbelievable
Gorilla's rights


What exactly is your argument?

Dawkins states clearly in the video that he is making a case based on emotion rather than science for the protection of Gorillas and other species. This video is about conservation of animal species and NOT about Atheism.


QUOTE (deadbeat+)
Atheist justification for ANIMAL RIGHTS on par with human ones.


You are exaggerating.


QUOTE (deadbeat+)
Holy crap.

Dawkins is off the talking points.

So, what say you Dawkin's worshippers to that?


Aren't you the one who agrees that morality is subjective? How is that different from Dawkins statement- "Wrong and right are not things that you can prove scientifically"?


As to the first, more on that later... I need to do some more research

As to the second, this is a Tacit admission by Dawkins, who is highly revered by the same people who were previously NOT admitting ethics and morals to be subjective, rather that they were going to discover the "natural" right answer to the moral and ethical question through evolutionary psychology and such.

Of course I know you have previously stipulated subjectivity, and I hold that as well.

It was more of a wake up call to specific people like Grumpy and BDW/Mjolnirpants who were saying the opposite before.
Gorgeous
Sorry, this should have been posted in this thread...




Parallel Patterns of Evolution in the Genomes and Transcriptomes of Humans and Chimpanzees
Philipp Khaitovich,1* Ines Hellmann,1* Wolfgang Enard,1* Katja Nowick,1 Marcus Leinweber,1 Henriette Franz,1 Gunter Weiss,2 Michael Lachmann,1 Svante Pääbo1{dagger}

The determination of the chimpanzee genome sequence provides a means to study both structural and functional aspects of the evolution of the human genome. Here we compare humans and chimpanzees with respect to differences in expression levels and protein-coding sequences for genes active in brain, heart, liver, kidney, and testis. We find that the patterns of differences in gene expression and gene sequences are markedly similar. In particular, there is a gradation of selective constraints among the tissues so that the brain shows the least differences between the species whereas liver shows the most. Furthermore, expression levels as well as amino acid sequences of genes active in more tissues have diverged less between the species than have genes active in fewer tissues. In general, these patterns are consistent with a model of neutral evolution with negative selection. However, for X-chromosomal genes expressed in testis, patterns suggestive of positive selection on sequence changes as well as expression changes are seen. Furthermore, although genes expressed in the brain have changed less than have genes expressed in other tissues, in agreement with previous work we find that genes active in brain have accumulated more changes on the human than on the chimpanzee lineage.

1 Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany.
2 WE Informatik, Bioinformatik, University of Düsseldorf, Universitätsstrasse 1, D-40225 Düsseldorf, Germany.


http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abst.../5742/1850?etoc




g.
excaza
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 06:53 PM)
As to the first, more on that later... I need to do some more research

Start with some sources that aren't incredibly biased.
deadbeat
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 1 2008, 12:40 AM)
Start with some sources that aren't incredibly biased.

I am trying to do exactly that. So far I have not even been able to find a written transcript of Dawkins words...

Unfortunately most sources are biased, even wikipedia or any other source. We just have to judge their relevance, or argue against the bias as best we can. I will stipulate that the article may be an unfair representation due to the venue, but I have yet to even watch the video with sound, which I may be reduced to doing.

You have to admit though, this is definitely worthy of interest and discussion.

If ethics and morals are "emotional" as Dawkins says, or Subjective as I say, he SEEMS to be making a case for justification for putting at least some animals on a equal footing with humans.

Of concern to me is the referral of the killing of the Gorillas as "murder", which REQUIRES the death of a HUMAN, not an animal. Just one more morally relativistic watering down of our values and morals, that I do not think is right or good.

I strongly disagree with that, I refuse to abdicate my genetic and evolutionary superiority as a species.

But I will keep looking for more, if not unbiased references. Certainly if you have any unbiased information, I would be glad to examine it.
Grumpy
deadhead

If you're going to quote someone, go straight to the source...

http://richarddawkins.net/

Grumpy cool.gif
photojack
QUOTE
“Admittedly, people of a theological bent are often chronically incapable of distinguishing what is true from what they’d like to be true.” Richard Dawkins
Grumpy cool.gif Quote from his signature.

I apply this quote to deadbeat. It fits him perfectly! Was it a Freudian slip how he picked the name "deadbeat"? I couldn't have chosen a more appropriate moniker if I tried! ((laugh.gif))
barakn
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 09:39 PM)
If ethics and morals are "emotional" as Dawkins says, or Subjective as I say, he SEEMS to be making a case for justification for putting at least some animals on a equal footing with humans.

Of concern to me is the referral of the killing of the Gorillas as "murder", which REQUIRES the death of a HUMAN, not an animal. Just one more morally relativistic watering down of our values and morals, that I do not think is right or good.

Perhaps we may find some relevance in Immanuel Kant's third formulation of the categorical imperative in his Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals: "The Idea of the will of every rational being as a will which makes universal law." Although there have been numerous comparisons drawn between the categorical imperative and the Golden Rule (do unto others...), I note one interesting difference - Kant has defined what "others" are, i.e. rational beings. Perhaps gorillas are not rational beings. Are there non-human rational beings on this planet - whales maybe? Who will be the judge that decides what is a rational being and what is not? Deadbeat? What if we encounter extraterrestrials of profound intelligence with their own well developed system of morals? Would deadbeat mow them down with a shotgun simply because they are not human?
QUOTE

I strongly disagree with that, I refuse to abdicate my genetic and evolutionary superiority as a species.

How very Christ-like of you.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 1 2008, 03:39 AM)
If ethics and morals are "emotional" as Dawkins says, or Subjective as I say, he SEEMS to be making a case for justification for putting at least some animals on a equal footing with humans.

Ahem...
QUOTE
I will stipulate that the article may be an unfair representation due to the venue, but I have yet to even watch the video with sound, which I may be reduced to doing.

Ya may be reduced to checkin yer sources?
Good luck findin the part where Dawkins calls for equal rights for gorillas:
BECAUSE THE WHOLE PREMISE UPON WHICH THIS THREAD IS BASED IS FASLE, AS DEMONSTRATED BY THE VERY VIDEO THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION COMMENTS ON. DAWKINS NEVER MAKES SUCH A STATEMENT.
What kinda idiot would even put up a thread like this without checkin to make sure the stuff he's talkin about actually happened?
Oh yeah, deadbeat... blink.gif
deadbeat
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jul 1 2008, 04:17 AM)
deadhead

If you're going to quote someone, go straight to the source...

http://richarddawkins.net/

Grumpy cool.gif

sure how about this from that source...
Link on Dawkins.net to a reuters article

QUOTE (above linked article+)

Spain's parliament voiced its support on Wednesday for the rights of great apes to life and freedom in what will apparently be the first time any national legislature has called for such rights for non-humans.


So, is that unbiased enough for you?
deadbeat
Interesting

On Kant I found this bit germane to the discussion perhaps...
QUOTE (wiki=Kant+)

The sense of an enlightened approach and the critical method required that "If one cannot prove that a thing is, he may try to prove that it is not. And if he succeeds in doing neither (as often occurs), he may still ask whether it is in his interest to accept one or the other of the alternatives hypothetically, from the theoretical or the practical point of view. Hence the question no longer is as to whether perpetual peace is a real thing or not a real thing, or as to whether we may not be deceiving ourselves when we adopt the former alternative, but we must act on the supposition of its being real."



QUOTE (barakn+Jul 1 2008, 05:40 AM)

Perhaps we may find some relevance in Immanuel Kant's third formulation of the categorical imperative in his Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals:  "The Idea of the will of every rational being as a will which makes universal law."  Although there have been numerous comparisons drawn between the categorical imperative and the Golden Rule (do unto others...), I note one interesting difference - Kant has defined what "others" are, i.e. rational beings.


Now that IS interesting. I think if I understand it correctly, I accept Kant's positions here. However in judging whether a being is "rational" or not, perhaps we could also apply the snippet I added above (although this snippet was in relation to religion) which seems to me to be applicable in this case as well.

I do not see how we could in an enlightened or critical scientific way prove whether something was "rational" without being able to communicate effectively with it.

The book definition of "rational" implies the use of and being consistent with reason. Unless we could communicate well enough to demonstrate the presence (or lack) of "reason" and the use and benefit of it, we could not prove anything rational.

But he does not stop there. Lacking proof, he then says "he may still ask whether it is in his interest to accept one or the other of the alternatives hypothetically, from the theoretical or the practical point of view. Hence the question no longer is as to whether perpetual peace is a real thing or not a real thing, or as to whether we may not be deceiving ourselves when we adopt the former alternative, but we must act on the supposition of its being real."

What if we TREAT them as rational and equal? Will it be in OUR best interest to do so when humanity and its needs are considered? If we SUPPOSE it were real, that Gorillas or any animal were rational, is it in OUR BEST INTEREST as humanity to do so?

I fail to see a scenario in which that is true, but perhaps you have an example. All my mind can conceive is a sad situation like India (pardon any insult to anyone of this persuasion) with Cattle. Where the cattle are revered, but walk around in near starvation. It seems like no real gift to the cattle who cannot understand it, and a disservice to people starving and giving gifts to the cattle, who I think would be better eaten. But I do not fully understand that situation, and hope nobody takes it personally or was offended.

QUOTE (barakn+Jul 1 2008, 05:40 AM)

Perhaps gorillas are not rational beings.  Are there non-human rational beings on this planet - whales maybe?  Who will be the judge that decides what is a rational being and what is not?  Deadbeat? 


As far as any of us know HUMANITY is the only rational animal in existence. When viewed from Kant's point of view as described above, when the issue is unkown or cannot be known, THE INTEREST OF OUR OWN SPECIES comes first. Anything else is silly.

QUOTE (barakn+Jul 1 2008, 05:40 AM)

What if we encounter extraterrestrials of profound intelligence with their own well developed system of morals? 


And the answer is, any organism sufficiently advanced to achieve space travel of those staggering distances would more than likely be sufficiently advanced beyond our mere capabilities to view US (humanity) as mere low-functioning animals, like cattle or sheep, maybe a dog. So we better hope they are nice to their pets.

QUOTE (barakn+Jul 1 2008, 05:40 AM)

Would deadbeat mow them down with a shotgun simply because they are not human?

How very Christ-like of you.


Now you are just being insulting.
MjolnirPants
deadbeat, (I hope that gets yer attention...) why is it that every time I point out a flaw in yer arguments, ya ignore me? I mean, yer not the only one (Farsight, Dad1, etc...), but still...
example 1
example 2
example 3
example 4
example 5
example 6
example 7
example 8
example 9
example 10
excaza
I just wish he would look at a dictionary and find the difference between religion and philosophy.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 1 2008, 01:58 PM)
I just wish he would look at a dictionary and find the difference between religion and philosophy.

We all do, son. Sigh...
sad.gif
Gorgeous
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jun 30 2008, 07:03 PM)
sure how about this from that source...
Link on Dawkins.net to a reuters article

QUOTE (above linked article+)

Spain's parliament voiced its support on Wednesday for the rights of great apes to life and freedom in what will apparently be the first time any national legislature has called for such rights for non-humans.


So, is that unbiased enough for you?

A great link and fantastic news, thanks! smile.gif


One can only applaud Richard Dawkins for having the insight to see what a great improvement in relations between Humans and their surroundings this is.



g.
buttershug
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 1 2008, 01:58 PM)
I just wish he would look at a dictionary and find the difference between religion and philosophy.

I think "world view" fits what he means better.
excaza
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 1 2008, 11:58 AM)
I think "world view" fits what he means better.

I do as well, but to him (I'm fairly certain I saw him explicitly state) all philosophy is essentially religion, which is like saying a rectangle is a square.
Beer w/Straw
QUOTE (philip347+Jun 30 2008, 05:02 PM)
With the first post in this thread, please note, as by the U.S. Pentagon’s says, (Don’t worry about global warming, start worrying about the ice age), it may be, the term lower animal, in reference to some of the current great apes, is no longer a valid term?

This notion is expressed, that usually with ice ages, there is an accompanying wave of evolution which takes place.

This new fact, has been verified with new extraordinary tool using sightings, of one where Organetangs known to hate water, have been seen swimming with spears to spear fish, retrieving them to eat.

This new factoid, also might be the reason for fungal outbreaks, in both plant and animal species, as it is known that fungal bacteria, act as plasticizers on the stance of DNA profiles, so making them malleable to change.

Since it is known that Earth based mankind is more than likely a hybrid creature, by military says in a documented outreach on O-part beings, then this fact would place mankind somewhere as a competitor within this known equation.

It may be, that if evolution is acting as the data presented here, says evolution with reference to more advanced primates is acting, then technically great apes may be on their way, to being termed as something other than great apes?

That sounds like a movie I once saw.

excaza
QUOTE (Beer w/Straw+Jul 1 2008, 12:30 PM)
That sounds like a movie I once saw.
Beer w/Straw
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 1 2008, 05:33 PM)
Beer w/Straw
Oh and deadbeat, fascinating material you have there.

Keep up the good fight!
philip347
All your information on chimps is wrong. The reason it is so, is that chimps in a measure, are a leftover from the process it took to make mankind.

*Technically and “I know this is quite upsetting to some“, chimpanzees, are our close cousins.
This is why it is exceptionally hard to tell chimp DNA from human DNA under a scope, unless you’re an expert.

What has to be done: Have the governments of all the large primate preserves, coordin off those areas, so humans, unless they are a board certified primatologist and NEED to get a close up inspection of those patrtilcar apes, into the area.

DON’T even socially interact with them, as was done in the past.

The reason for this warning is that they are currently undergoing a wave of evolution and should not technically be meddled with, at all.
This means that any investigator, should be termed as a black or dark socially nonreactive figure.

Have an electronic fence place all around these preserves and raise simple jail terms, to either federal prison for any unqualified human being on these preserves, or the death penalty.

For humans what has to be done:

Humans are technically a hybrid creature made from the DNA or large primate apes, an off world species and probably in some very convoluted genetics way, some of the DNA from beings known as the Nephilum.
*There may be more off world influence pumped into the human herd, from other sources, that we don’t know of?
In other words, even the ebes at the said guest bases, Might not know about these inputs into man for the most part.

The government should start to buy up used shopping centers and rapidly convert them to half way alien meeting places.

The process is that through hyper learning protocols, to raise the knowledge base of humans, through educational immersion, so that they can par with and survive with a chosen guest aliens species, to relocate off world.

These centers would have one educational preparation facility that would rapidly educate a person to all they need to know about aliens.

In these centers would be a roster of all the many kinds of aliens they would possibly want to make contact with.
NOTHING, NO INFORMATION, IS PURPOSELY HELD Back. The user of these systems get to know everything about their situations.

The halfway centers are to publicly acknowledged centers, to where aliens can land, to choose a human or humans that they would like to take into their society.
Note, if you use the source, (humanoids sightings reports) and go through these list, you will see just how volumes the many differing kinds of aliens in numbers and differing species are, that come to Earth.

Once all agreements are signed, then that human and or family can, is allowed to leave Earth with the blessing the government.

Cautions in staying here on Earth: The large primates may now be experiencing an improvement wave. This might be mini-brain storms, or abilities in how to create and improve their own level of existence.
Since bio-gene-evolution comes in waves, there might be a barrowing stress principle, that while the great apes are going through evolution, that they might be inadvertly placing massive biological stress on mankind as we know him.

*This wave, could possibly affect mankind’s ability for its women to give a normal birth to their children?

This is the primary reason for getting off of Earth and or rapidly decreasing our numbers as fast as possible.

*If you accomplish this process by a nuclear war, via wormhole apparatus, one could possibly prematurely age the sun.
This is so, due to the very concentrated energy that is housed within nuclear radiation.

So the only other alternative, if for the government now, to not only allow off world contacts, but to help and sanction it.

Any other way, might prove the demise of this particular sect of humans, in this quadrant of the galaxy?
Beer w/Straw
QUOTE (philip347+Jul 1 2008, 05:45 PM)
All your information on chimps is wrong. The reason it is so, is that chimps in a measure, are a leftover from the process it took to make mankind.

*Technically and “I know this is quite upsetting to some“, chimpanzees, are our close cousins.
This is why it is exceptionally hard to tell chimp DNA from human DNA under a scope, unless you’re an expert.

What has to be done: Have the governments of all the large primate preserves, coordin off those areas, so humans, unless they are a board certified primatologist and NEED to get a close up inspection of those patrtilcar apes, into the area.

DON’T even socially interact with them, as was done in the past.

The reason for this warning is that they are currently undergoing a wave of evolution and should not technically be meddled with, at all.
This means that any investigator, should be termed as a black or dark socially nonreactive figure.

Have an electronic fence place all around these preserves and raise simple jail terms, to either federal prison for any unqualified human being on these preserves, or the death penalty.

For humans what has to be done:

Humans are technically a hybrid creature made from the DNA or large primate apes, an off world species and probably in some very convoluted genetics way, some of the DNA from beings known as the Nephilum.
*There may be more off world influence pumped into the human herd, from other sources, that we don’t know of?
In other words, even the ebes at the said guest bases, Might not know about these inputs into man for the most part.

The government should start to buy up used shopping centers and rapidly convert them to half way alien meeting places.

The process is that through hyper learning protocols, to raise the knowledge base of humans, through educational immersion, so that they can par with and survive with a chosen guest aliens species, to relocate off world.

These centers would have one educational preparation facility that would rapidly educate a person to all they need to know about aliens.

In these centers would be a roster of all the many kinds of aliens they would possibly want to make contact with.
NOTHING, NO INFORMATION, IS PURPOSELY HELD Back. The user of these systems get to know everything about their situations.

The halfway centers are to publicly acknowledged centers, to where aliens can land, to choose a human or humans that they would like to take into their society.
Note, if you use the source, (humanoids sightings reports) and go through these list, you will see just how volumes the many differing kinds of aliens in numbers and differing species are, that come to Earth.

Once all agreements are signed, then that human and or family can, is allowed to leave Earth with the blessing the government.

Cautions in staying here on Earth: The large primates may now be experiencing an improvement wave. This might be mini-brain storms, or abilities in how to create and improve their own level of existence.
Since bio-gene-evolution comes in waves, there might be a barrowing stress principle, that while the great apes are going through evolution, that they might be inadvertly placing massive biological stress on mankind as we know him.

*This wave, could possibly affect mankind’s ability for its women to give a normal birth to their children?

This is the primary reason for getting off of Earth and or rapidly decreasing our numbers as fast as possible.

*If you accomplish this process by a nuclear war, via wormhole apparatus, one could possibly prematurely age the sun.
This is so, due to the very concentrated energy that is housed within nuclear radiation.

So the only other alternative, if for the government now, to not only allow off world contacts, but to help and sanction it.

Any other way, might prove the demise of this particular sect of humans, in this quadrant of the galaxy?

I must retire to ponder your statement in full.
excaza
QUOTE (philip347+Jul 1 2008, 12:45 PM)
All your information on chimps is wrong. The reason it is so, is that chimps in a measure, are a leftover from the process it took to make mankind.

If by "leftover from process" you mean "evolved from a common ancestor," you're right.

QUOTE
This is why it is exceptionally hard to tell chimp DNA from human DNA under a scope, unless you’re an expert.

No it's not, they're almost identical, but it's not difficult to find the differences.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 1 2008, 06:04 PM)
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Truer words have never been spoken...

Phillip, Sitchin was a fraud. Completely an uttery. So was Von Daniken, neither o them have any scientific credentials, trainin or competence.
STOP SPOUTIN OFF THEIR BULLSH*T!
philip347
Killing off the apes, wont stop the process.

What this is, is a level biological wave.

As time goes on, you will start to see more and more problems in the human birthing process.
excaza
QUOTE (philip347+Jul 1 2008, 02:18 PM)
As time goes on, you will start to see more and more problems in the human birthing process.

rolleyes.gif I'm guessing you were the start?
philip347
I don’t see why you people want to win in this thread, other than winning for winnings sake?
It has been divulged by another part of the government, that the Anunnaki were here, by an ancient raygun pistol, that was found within an area particular dig.

The only thing that I can surmise, is that you two are ignorant and cruel and take great pleasure in degrading and torturing others on any posting board.

I stick by my says, but don’t dare come to me in the future, because you have found out what I have said, is already happening.

Source: Three quarter view, gray colored hand held pistol, with ruby lens at front of pistol, listed as Anunnaki artifact.
N O M
The planet philip65 lives in must be an interesting place wacko.gif




deadbeat
Phillip, could you please start a different thread to discuss this? You are derailing mine, I would appreciate it.

Let us continue the discussion of whether Gorillas should have Human rights.

the Trolls do not wish this examined, and so attempt to derail the discussion with more pointless blather, as they fear their silliness may be exposed to the light of day.

so back on topic, My earlier post
QUOTE (link to my post above+)

I am trying to do exactly that. So far I have not even been able to find a written transcript of Dawkins words...

Unfortunately most sources are biased, even wikipedia or any other source. We just have to judge their relevance, or argue against the bias as best we can. I will stipulate that the article may be an unfair representation due to the venue, but I have yet to even watch the video with sound, which I may be reduced to doing.

You have to admit though, this is definitely worthy of interest and discussion.

If ethics and morals are "emotional" as Dawkins says, or Subjective as I say, he SEEMS to be making a case for justification for putting at least some animals on a equal footing with humans.

Of concern to me is the referral of the killing of the Gorillas as "murder", which REQUIRES the death of a HUMAN, not an animal. Just one more morally relativistic watering down of our values and morals, that I do not think is right or good.

I strongly disagree with that, I refuse to abdicate my genetic and evolutionary superiority as a species.

But I will keep looking for more, if not unbiased references. Certainly if you have any unbiased information, I would be glad to examine it.


excaza
You should have looked into unbiased claims before you made the accusatory post. You should have at least watched the video rolleyes.gif
Beer w/Straw
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 2 2008, 02:18 AM)
Phillip, could you please start a different thread to discuss this? You are derailing mine, I would appreciate it.

Let us continue the discussion of whether Gorillas should have Human rights.

the Trolls do not wish this examined, and so attempt to derail the discussion with more pointless blather, as they fear their silliness may be exposed to the light of day.

so back on topic, My earlier post
QUOTE (link to my post above+)

I am trying to do exactly that. So far I have not even been able to find a written transcript of Dawkins words...

Unfortunately most sources are biased, even wikipedia or any other source. We just have to judge their relevance, or argue against the bias as best we can. I will stipulate that the article may be an unfair representation due to the venue, but I have yet to even watch the video with sound, which I may be reduced to doing.

You have to admit though, this is definitely worthy of interest and discussion.

If ethics and morals are "emotional" as Dawkins says, or Subjective as I say, he SEEMS to be making a case for justification for putting at least some animals on a equal footing with humans.

Of concern to me is the referral of the killing of the Gorillas as "murder", which REQUIRES the death of a HUMAN, not an animal. Just one more morally relativistic watering down of our values and morals, that I do not think is right or good.

I strongly disagree with that, I refuse to abdicate my genetic and evolutionary superiority as a species.

But I will keep looking for more, if not unbiased references. Certainly if you have any unbiased information, I would be glad to examine it.

I'm still pondering Phil's words myself.


Fascinating.
TheDoc
QUOTE (deadbeat+)
the Trolls do not wish this examined, and so attempt to derail the discussion with more pointless blather, as they fear their silliness may be exposed to the light of day.


Since when has Richard Dawkins spoken for all atheists?
deadbeat
QUOTE (TheDoc+Jul 2 2008, 03:32 AM)
QUOTE (deadbeat+)
the Trolls do not wish this examined, and so attempt to derail the discussion with more pointless blather, as they fear their silliness may be exposed to the light of day.


Since when has Richard Dawkins spoken for all atheists?

Since many of the most Outspoken Kool-aid drinking Religion hating Atheists quote him so much...

BigDumbWeirdo/MjolnirPants, GeneSplicer, PhotoJack, Grumpy and the like I believe. Whatever, they know who they are.

And as far as unbiased, I also linked a few posts later this link
My post with link to Reuters article

which this is exerpted from...
QUOTE

Spain's parliament voiced its support on Wednesday for the rights of great apes to life and freedom in what will apparently be the first time any national legislature has called for such rights for non-humans.


And we almost had a philosophical discussion based on Kant, but predictably the usual suspects arrived and derailed.
Beer w/Straw
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 2 2008, 03:42 AM)



And we almost had a philosophical discussion based on Kant, but predictably the usual suspects arrived and derailed.

Wouldn't Kant have been agnostic because Atheism is like the antithesis of Theism, an antimony?
Grumpy


Should apes be treated like people?

Under a resolution headed for passage in the Spanish parliament, respecting the personal rights of "our non-human brothers" won't just be a good idea. It'll be the law.

The resolution, approved last week by a parliamentary committee with broad support, urges the government to implement the agenda of the Great Ape Project, an organization whose founding declaration says apes "may not be killed" or "arbitrarily deprived of their liberty." No more routine confinement. According to Reuters, the proposal would commit the government to ending involuntary use of apes in circuses, TV ads, and dangerous experiments.

Proponents hail the resolution as the first crack in the "species barrier." Peter Singer, the philosopher who co-founded GAP, puts it this way: "There is no sound moral reason why possession of basic rights should be limited to members of a particular species." If aliens or monkeys are shown to have moral or intellectual abilities similar to ours, we should treat them like people.

He's right. To borrow Martin Luther King's rule, you should be judged by what's inside you, not by what's on the surface.

If the idea of treating chimps like people freaks you out, join the club. Creationists have been fighting this battle for a long time. They realized long ago that evolution threatened humanity's special status. Maybe you thought all this evolution stuff was just about the past. Surprise! Once you've admitted chimps are your relatives, you have to think about treating them that way. That's why, when the Spanish proposal won approval last week, GAP's leader in Spain called it a victory for "our evolutionary comrades."

Opponents view the resolution as egalitarian extremism. Spain's conservative party frets that it would grant animals the same rights as people. Spanish newspapers and citizens complain that ape rights are distracting lawmakers from human problems. Wesley Smith, my favorite anti-animal-rights blogger, sees the resolution as the first step in a campaign to "elevate all mammals to moral equality with humans." Ultimately, Smith warns, "Animal rights activists believe a rat, is a pig, is a dog, is a boy."

You can certainly find that theme in some quarters. GAP calls humans, chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans "members of the community of equals," and Singer holds out the possibility that GAP "may pave the way for the extension of rights to all primates, or all mammals, or all animals." But the arguments GAP has deployed in Spain don't advance the idea of equality among animals. They destroy it.

GAP is scientifically honest. And science doesn't show mental parity between great apes and human adults. What it shows, as the group's president acknowledges, is that great apes "experience an emotional and intellectual conscience similar to that of human children." Accordingly, the Spanish proposal doesn't treat apes like you or me. It treats them like "humans of limited capacity, such as children or those who are mentally incompetent and are afforded guardians or caretakers to represent their interests."

And that's just the top rung of the inequality ladder. GAP's mission statement says great apes are entitled to rights based on their "morally significant characteristics." It says they enjoy a rich emotional and cultural existence in which they experience emotions such as fear, anxiety and happiness. They share the intellectual capacity to create and use tools, learn and teach other languages. They remember their past and plan for their future. It is in recognition of these and other morally significant qualities that the Great Ape Project was founded.

Morally significant qualities. Morally significant characteristics. These are appeals to discrimination, not universal equality. Most animals don't have a rich cultural life. They can't make tools. They don't teach languages. Singer even points out that "chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas have long-term relationships, not only between mothers and children, but also between unrelated apes." Special rights for animals in committed relationships! It sounds like a Moral Majority for vegans.

Opening your mind to science-based animal rights doesn't eliminate inequality. It just makes the inequality more scientific. A rat can't match a pig, much less a boy. In fact, as a GAP board member points out, "We are closer genetically to a chimp than a mouse is to a rat."

George Orwell wrote the cruel finale to this tale 63 years ago in Animal Farm: "All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others." That wasn't how the egalitarian uprising in the book was supposed to turn out. It wasn't how the animal rights movement was supposed to turn out, either.

http://www.slate.com/id/2194568/?GT1=38001

So we see a difference in mammals that varies by degree, but not kind. Dolphins, whales, apes, dogs and the other higher mammals DO deserve respect and fair treatment. The killing of an ape IS morally equivalent to murdering a human.

This does not apply to all mammals, nor in all situations. But we should always THINK about the the fact that, but for the slip of a few alleles, we could be the primates that are facing extinction for no other reason but another's thoughtlessness and greed.

Grumpy cool.gif
deadbeat
and the final lines are the most telling

Look, I read the whole thing, and I can certainly understand why you might feel that way.

QUOTE (Grumpy+Jul 2 2008, 09:01 AM)

So we see a difference in mammals that varies by degree, but not kind. Dolphins, whales, apes, dogs and the other higher mammals DO deserve respect and fair treatment. The killing of an ape IS morally equivalent to murdering a human. 


First off, Ethics and morals are not "scientific" in the objective sense, it is philosophy and entirely subjective. Secondly, MURDER is a term used exclusively for HUMANS...period. Just like eating an Ape is not CANNIBALISM. Which, as a matter of fact, Apes do...eat their own kind. Apes do MANY things that are ethically and morally reprehensible, it is just common to anthropomorphise them and look at only the things we like.

They are not human, not even close. They have rudimentary similarities and some very poorly developed capacities we have developed far more greatly and take for granted, but they are not HUMAN, would not understand nor appreciate being given rights, nor grant them to you in their place. NOR GRANT THEM TO YOU.

QUOTE (Grumpy+Jul 2 2008, 09:01 AM)

This does not apply to all mammals, nor in all situations. But we should always THINK about the the fact that, but for the slip of a few alleles, we could be the primates that are facing extinction for no other reason but another's thoughtlessness and greed.

Grumpy cool.gif


You know what I am an animal too, and I put my own and my family and my society BEFORE some dippy animal whose greatest accomplishment is hurling crap at us.

This over-empathy to the point of self-destruction is sickening.
excaza
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 2 2008, 07:11 AM)
You know what I am an animal too, and I put my own and my family and my society BEFORE some dippy animal whose greatest accomplishment is hurling crap at us.

The ignorance of that bolded statement is sickening.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 1 2008, 05:50 AM)
Ahem...

Ya may be reduced to checkin yer sources?
Good luck findin the part where Dawkins calls for equal rights for gorillas:
BECAUSE THE WHOLE PREMISE UPON WHICH THIS THREAD IS BASED IS FASLE, AS DEMONSTRATED BY THE VERY VIDEO THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION COMMENTS ON. DAWKINS NEVER MAKES SUCH A STATEMENT.
What kinda idiot would even put up a thread like this without checkin to make sure the stuff he's talkin about actually happened?
Oh yeah, deadbeat... blink.gif

An let's not forget...
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 1 2008, 01:42 PM)
deadbeat, (I hope that gets yer attention...) why is it that every time I point out a flaw in yer arguments, ya ignore me? I mean, yer not the only one (Farsight, Dad1, etc...), but still...
example 1
example 2
example 3
example 4
example 5
example 6
example 7
example 8
example 9
example 10
Gorgeous
Apes should be treated better than mere people, as they are not as insane, not as polluting; self-destructive. (see deadbeats posts, for confirmation!)



g.
Capracus
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 2 2008, 12:11 PM)
and the final lines are the most telling

Look, I read the whole thing, and I can certainly understand why you might feel that way.



First off, Ethics and morals are not "scientific" in the objective sense, it is philosophy and entirely subjective. Secondly, MURDER is a term used exclusively for HUMANS...period. Just like eating an Ape is not CANNIBALISM. Which, as a matter of fact, Apes do...eat their own kind. Apes do MANY things that are ethically and morally reprehensible, it is just common to anthropomorphise them and look at only the things we like.

They are not human, not even close. They have rudimentary similarities and some very poorly developed capacities we have developed far more greatly and take for granted, but they are not HUMAN, would not understand nor appreciate being given rights, nor grant them to you in their place. NOR GRANT THEM TO YOU.



You know what I am an animal too, and I put my own and my family and my society BEFORE some dippy animal whose greatest accomplishment is hurling crap at us.

This over-empathy to the point of self-destruction is sickening.
You can engage in all of the semantical gymnastics you like as far as rationalizing the treatment of various life forms or nonliving objects, but the reality is, as you put it, we treat our own, whether family members, pets or possessions, better than we treat other less fortunate humans or animals. Cruelty and neglect are much less subjective than you care to admit.
uaafanblog
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 2 2008, 01:07 PM)
Apes should be treated better than mere people, as they are not as insane, not as polluting; self-destructive. (see deadbeats posts, for confirmation!)



g.

Yup ...

I'd allow a crap throwing silverback mountain Gorilla into my house before I'd let deadbeat or his Pope to enter. The conversations would be more logical and enjoyable. The smell would be vastly superior. I wouldn't have to worry about any children being abused.

Gorilla > Pope
Gorgeous
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jul 2 2008, 10:38 AM)
Yup ...

I'd allow a crap throwing silverback mountain Gorilla into my house before I'd let deadbeat or his Pope to enter. The conversations would be more logical and enjoyable. The smell would be vastly superior. I wouldn't have to worry about any children being abused.

Gorilla > Pope

laugh.gif




g.
Masked Marauder
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jul 2 2008, 09:38 PM)
Yup ...

I'd allow a crap throwing silverback mountain Gorilla into my house before I'd let deadbeat or his Pope to enter. The conversations would be more logical and enjoyable. The smell would be vastly superior. I wouldn't have to worry about any children being abused.

Gorilla > Pope

I have an idea, lets get the Gorilla to shag the pope. Show him what its like...

OOOooooOOOOooooOOOooooo

I may burn in Hades for that one...
El_Machinae
A point that may not have been mentioned (this is an ugly thread) is that the premise is that the gorillas do not get the same rights as a human adult would: they're not human adults. But they can certainly be given rights which recognise their advanced cognition.

I don't think that Dawkins was pushing for "full human rights", since it was other groups I've seen advance that proposal. I'm actually not too sure how Dawkins got conflated into this.
Sinister Utopia
Richard Dawkins is a consciousness raiser. He recognizes the power of memes and how they can be used to this end. Whether or not great apes and other highly intelligent animals are afforded particular rights as suggested, the important thing is that the matter is being discussed, perhaps long overdue.
deadbeat
The entire argument is whether or not HUMANS have any superior stature in your view.

If you assign rights to non-humans (animals) that are traditionally reserved for humans (beings of our species) you must consider the consequences most thoughtfully.

Anyone proposing SUPERIOR rights for non-humans

QUOTE (Gorgeous+ Jul 2 2008, 01:07 PM)

  Apes should be treated better than mere people, as they are not as insane, not as polluting; self-destructive. (see deadbeats posts, for confirmation!) 


Is illustrating their mental capacity and depth of thought to be insufficient.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 2 2008, 01:00 PM)
QUOTE
Ahem...

Ya may be reduced to checkin yer sources?
Good luck findin the part where Dawkins calls for equal rights for gorillas:
BECAUSE THE WHOLE PREMISE UPON WHICH THIS THREAD IS BASED IS FASLE, AS DEMONSTRATED BY THE VERY VIDEO THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION COMMENTS ON. DAWKINS NEVER MAKES SUCH A STATEMENT.
What kinda idiot would even put up a thread like this without checkin to make sure the stuff he's talkin about actually happened?
Oh yeah, deadbeat...


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Ahem...

Ya may be reduced to checkin yer sources?
Good luck findin the part where Dawkins calls for equal rights for gorillas:
BECAUSE THE WHOLE PREMISE UPON WHICH THIS THREAD IS BASED IS FASLE, AS DEMONSTRATED BY THE VERY VIDEO THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION COMMENTS ON. DAWKINS NEVER MAKES SUCH A STATEMENT.
What kinda idiot would even put up a thread like this without checkin to make sure the stuff he's talkin about actually happened?
Oh yeah, deadbeat...


deadbeat, (I hope that gets yer attention...) why is it that every time I point out a flaw in yer arguments, ya ignore me? I mean, yer not the only one (Farsight, Dad1, etc...), but still...
example 1
example 2
example 3
example 4
example 5
example 6
example 7
example 8
example 9
example 10

Ahem...
deadbeat
Big Dumb Weirdo (aka whatever you are calling yourself today, Mjolnirpants)

The reason I stopped responding to you, is because I answered your silly questions, you just are completely immune to reason, logic or fact.

Oh, and as to your "false premise", I posted a link to an article talking about Dawkins, which is from HIS OWN WEBSITE.

Thanks for playing though.

The only one impressed by your antagonistic and abuse-prone posting style is you and your close circle of self-labeled "forum mafia members".
Gorgeous
QUOTE
Is illustrating their mental capacity and depth of thought to be insufficient.




Pope to apologise for sex scandal

The Pope's visit has prompted mixed reactions from Australians

Pope Benedict XVI has begun a nine-day visit to Australia, where he is due to apologise for decades of sexual abuse of children by priests.

As he began the longest foreign trip of his papacy, he said paedophilia was "incompatible" with being a priest.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7503246.stm

He doesn't even say it is wrong! ph34r.gif



g.
excaza
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 01:46 AM)
Oh, and as to your "false premise", I posted a link to an article talking about Dawkins, which is from HIS OWN WEBSITE.

Except MP's accusation is valid. The article you linked to purposely distorts the message of the video in order to suit it to their pro-creation and pro-bible agenda. There was absolutely no attempt by the author to give the video an unbiased interpretation and review.

Hell, you even admitted to not even watching the video to see what it ACTUALLY says. One would usually tend to do that before posting about how dumb it is.

QUOTE
you just are completely immune to reason, logic or fact.

Pot.
Kettle.
deadbeat
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 13 2008, 02:39 PM)
Except MP's accusation is valid. The article you linked to purposely distorts the message of the video in order to suit it to their pro-creation and pro-bible agenda. There was absolutely no attempt by the author to give the video an unbiased interpretation and review.

Hell, you even admitted to not even watching the video to see what it ACTUALLY says. One would usually tend to do that before posting about how dumb it is.


Pot.
Kettle.

Well then oh great one...

Do tell us WHAT he meant actually? If not giving Gorillas human rights of some sort.
excaza
How about you watch the video and tell us instead of linking us to some biased bible-thumping sh*t that you read and ate all up because it agreed with your sentiment that athiests are out to get you.
deadbeat
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 13 2008, 02:39 PM)
Except MP's accusation is valid. The article you linked to purposely distorts the message of the video in order to suit it to their pro-creation and pro-bible agenda. There was absolutely no attempt by the author to give the video an unbiased interpretation and review.

Hell, you even admitted to not even watching the video to see what it ACTUALLY says. One would usually tend to do that before posting about how dumb it is.


Pot.
Kettle.

So the usual Atheist bait and switch...

I post a link, you cannot be bothered to refute it. Funny that.

I do not have sound on this machine, so cannot hear the video, and cannot find a transcript anyway.

But, as can be easily seen His Dawkinship is promoting elevated rights (above animal status) for Gorillas. Do you deny that? Specieism?
excaza
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 08:15 PM)
So the usual Atheist bait and switch...

I post a link, you cannot be bothered to refute it. Funny that.

So the usual retard bait and switch.

You post a link that you cannot be bothered to even watch.

Then blame it on the athiests.

QUOTE
But, as can be easily seen His Dawkinship is promoting elevated rights (above animal status) for Gorillas. Do you deny that?

Yes, I do. Because if you'd bother to watch the 4 minute video that you've had 3 weeks to watch, you'd notice that he's advocating better treatment for animals that have higher capacity for reasoning and communication than, say, a seagull. Not elevated rights.
excaza
And given that you believe the great apes can't do anything better than throw feces, your gross ignorance leaves you in no position to comment on their (fascinating) capabilities.
gmilam
If you locked me away in a cage when I hadn't done any crime, I might resort to throwing poop at you too.
deadbeat
QUOTE (excaza+Jul 14 2008, 01:37 AM)
So the usual retard bait and switch.

You post a link that you cannot be bothered to even watch.

Then blame it on the athiests.


Yes, I do. Because if you'd bother to watch the 4 minute video that you've had 3 weeks to watch, you'd notice that he's advocating better treatment for animals that have higher capacity for reasoning and communication than, say, a seagull. Not elevated rights.

Well you see some of work for a living, and I only post when I have a few minutes to spare, and besides

THIS IS A FORUM

It is all about WRITTEN word. You do not make a television show that asks people to stop and read a book. If there was alink to a transcript, I would use it, but the video thing is a nonstarter.

So what point would be "advocating better treatment" for "animals that have higher capacity for reasoning and communication", eh?

Where does it lead? What is the criteria and WHAT is the supposed "better treatment" and how will it be enforced?

This is just typical self-hating Atheist PC overkill, in its usual form. Lacking any ethical or moral fixed position, you never know what they will do next.

Gorillas get the vote.
excaza
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 08:50 PM)
Where does it lead? What is the criteria and WHAT is the supposed "better treatment" and how will it be enforced?

Not mowing down their habitats and not shooting them to make tables and handbags would be a start.

QUOTE
This is just typical self-hating Atheist PC overkill, in its usual form. Lacking any ethical or moral fixed position, you never know what they will do next.

This is just typical retard. Lacking any ability or motivation to actually check the validity of their claims before spouting them all over the internet. Then ducking and dodging whenever someone asks you if you actually looked at what you posted, all the while mocking them because you're paranoid of the athiests who are going to come and kick your puppies and eat all the babies.

If you like reading extremely biased bible-thumpers that will eat up every stupid point you make, then go to a different forum. You take nothing seriously, and don't even acknowledge it when people attempt to defend you, you just throw it behind a wall of paranoia about the damned athiests.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 06:46 AM)
The reason I stopped responding to you, is because I answered your silly questions,

1. No, ya didn't.
2. Expectin you to check yer sources to ensure they actually say what ya think they say is not silly.
3. Expectin ya to invalidate or at least respond to valid points against yer arguments is not silly, either.

QUOTE
you just are completely immune to reason, logic or fact.

Bullsh*t! laugh.gif Ya can't demonstrate any o that in any o my posts. I can easily demonstrate that about yerself, startin with the above.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
you just are completely immune to reason, logic or fact.

Bullsh*t! laugh.gif Ya can't demonstrate any o that in any o my posts. I can easily demonstrate that about yerself, startin with the above.

Oh, and as to your "false premise", I posted a link to an article talking about Dawkins, which is from HIS OWN WEBSITE.

Did ya actually read what I said in those big, bold letters? laugh.gif
It doesn't matter if that link came directly from God's hands with a letter o authenticity, Dawkins never once makes the claim that you or that article says he did. He never once claimed that Gorilla's deserve equal rights to humans.

QUOTE
The only one impressed by your antagonistic and abuse-prone posting style is you and your close circle of  self-labeled "forum mafia members".

Really? Do I have to count insults between the two o us to prove which o us is more prone to 'abuse'? Yer a liar and a hypocrite, an ya can count that as two insults, cause yer still far more prone to insultin people than I am, liar. (That's 3, I'm really helpin ya out here, son! laugh.gif )

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The only one impressed by your antagonistic and abuse-prone posting style is you and your close circle of  self-labeled "forum mafia members".

Really? Do I have to count insults between the two o us to prove which o us is more prone to 'abuse'? Yer a liar and a hypocrite, an ya can count that as two insults, cause yer still far more prone to insultin people than I am, liar. (That's 3, I'm really helpin ya out here, son!