To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: God, what he really is, and proof, RIGHT HERE!
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > General Sci-Tech Discussions > Creation / Evolution

Your fellow human (yfh)
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:eLXLO...ble+blind&hl=tr

Unless someone shows me some studies opposed to this, I will firmly believe it.^

15 people's will could alter the growth of fungi/bacteria?
How much more so, 1 billion firm believers?
After so many years, I finally know who "God" and "the Devil" really are, along with "angels"/"demons"/"ghosts", etc.

Collective beings, fueled by mindpower, which are both "real" and "not-real". They have an effect, they have power, and yet they aren't "really" there, physically.

Theists and athiests were both right! But each one was right about only 1 side of this complex phenominon.
GeneSplicer
If what you are suggesting were true, then studies like the following one would support your premise.

Prayers don't help heart surgery patients; Some fare worse when prayed for

QUOTE
Many - if not most people - believe that prayer will help you through a medical crisis such as heart bypass surgery. If a large group of people outside yourself, your family, and your friends joined in intercessory prayer, that should be even more helpful, so such reasoning goes.

Researchers have been trying to prove this and even to measure the effect. So far, two studies found that third-party prayers bestow benefits, but two others concluded that there are no benefits. Now, the largest study to date, covering 1,800 people who underwent coronary bypass surgery at six different hospitals, supported the latter research.

Not only that, but patients who knew that others were praying for them fared worse than those who did not receive such spiritual support, or who did but were not aware of it.

Furthermore, if a groups thoughts or willpower (what intense prayer breaks down to) were able to alter or influence reality, shouldnít other studies onto the realm of psychic phenomenon show more substance to such claims?
GeneSplicer
My bad, double post.
Your fellow human (yfh)
1:
Willpower towards a specific outcome -- not asking God to bless his soul when it hits the heaven's gate, after he's dead.

2:
Heart surgery depends on the surgen, more then it does on the patient. It's a very physical and drastic body change. If human will has a chance of altering certain forces within reality, it wouldn't be very powerful, would it?

3:
Hidden factors.
E.L.F. frequencies(hope I got that ab. right), the kind that ressonate with the normal brain frequency of humans, and the rotation of earth. These have been shown to effect humans.

If I'm not mastaken.
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/schumann.html

&:
What about different areas of the earth, with different magnetism? I've read about the magnetics of an area also effecting human health/ability.

so:
These are just two examples of big [not taken into account] factors that could have effected a test, so that a test worked in one area, but did not work in another area -- on earth, or at another time -- on earth.

-

Forget prayer and religion! This is the kind of test anyone can do. Have 1 bacteria or fungi culture that people will towards non-growth, 1 bacteria or fungi culture that is left alone, and 1 bacteria or fungi culture that people will towards expotential growth.

Compare results, repeat the test, and monitor the average success rate; the depth or power of effect change if more then 1 person focuses on the subject; record the exact percentage of change/effect average.

I would prefer if "God" was left out of this, and people tried to use their own will, instead of asking "God" to help.

"Some fare worse":
The reason why some people did fair worse, these where the people that were informed that others were praying for them. This was the effect of their own reaction to information, it wasn't the prayers.

-

As usual, I did not abandon my theory that higher life forms have the slight ability to alter "random chance", at this also [at times] effects the "random" genetic combinations of the sperm and egg cell = partial pre-selection [instead of pure "natural selection] during conception, before birth. This is why higher life forms can evolutionarily match things such as bacteria, who evolve purely by "natural-selection", but evolve much faster because of their reproduction and life span differences, when compared to us.

-

If someone really wanted to, they could probably disprove or prove my ideas within a few hours of google searching for good studies/tests/facts. I'll go search for a while now.

Thanks for reading, anyways.
StevenA
Willpower to accomplish something involves more than simply wishing/praying/hoping real hard for it. There was a saying I heard that a mustard seed of faith could move a mountain ... the catch is that faith weighs nothing, yet you can instead apply yourself toward building some bulldozers and still move the mountain. There's a will ... and there's a way. One or the other won't accomplish a lot, but that's my opinion and of course opinions vary.
swimmer
QUOTE (Your fellow human (yfh)+Apr 7 2006, 11:34 AM)
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:eLXLO...ble+blind&hl=tr

Unless someone shows me some studies opposed to this, I will firmly believe it.^
...

Can't you just settle for mild skepticism? huh.gif
keithbaker


When I was reading the facts on your site I noticed that the amazing results were pretty un-amazing. Like for instance "The prayed-for group had about a 10 percent advantage compared to the usual-care group". I mean if a god can't do better than 10% what are we doing here. There we some better examples supporting you but the fact that you can say this study is going to change your views on life if pretty ridiculous to me. Do you believe in psychics solving murders by looking into crystal balls too? There's cases to support this as well.
blue_bottle

Any attempt to prove the existence of God is crushing the reality.

If God is proved to exist, then surely this destroys the need for faith which is necessary to believe in God. I know this is from the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, but it keeps coming back to this.

God cannot exist without faith, which is why I try to prove to no-one that he exists, only attempt to encourage faith in God.
Your fellow human (yfh)
QUOTE (keithbaker+Apr 20 2006, 07:26 AM)
When I was reading the facts on your site I noticed that the amazing results were pretty un-amazing. Like for instance "The prayed-for group had about a 10 percent advantage compared to the usual-care group". I mean if a god can't do better than 10% what are we doing here. There we some better examples supporting you but the fact that you can say this study is going to change your views on life if pretty ridiculous to me. Do you believe in psychics solving murders by looking into crystal balls too? There's cases to support this as well.

I am atheist antil proven wrong.

I think that all "higher powers" are natural, explainable, and mostly non-sentient.

This is not a pro-theistic argument!
This is about human will and higher brain function being the only force behind what was previously estimated to be caused by "God".
PaulBored
It's interesting, but i'd hardly say that it's God. If you believe in psychic powers and ESP (which i do to an extent) then you could say it's basically that. Some people think that that kind of stuff is affiliated with God, while others (such as myself) believe that it a perfectly natural phenomenon that has not been explained by science yet, only because no one has done any serious, high-budget research because no one will fund them. (correct me if i'm wrong about this)
Your fellow human (yfh)
http://www.asa3.org/archive/ASA/200410/0177.html
^
I have read now, more then once, that people who know they are being prayed for fair worse then people who do not know that they are being prayed for.

Also, from these studies, it appears prayer is basically useless.

But I am still wondering how much of an effect things like visualization and willpower have on reality/random events.

Visualization techniques are used very often and heavily developed within the occult, from what I've been reading. I don't know of any occult studies though, about effectiveness...
howtothinklikegod
QUOTE
Also, from these studies, it appears prayer is basically useless.


Prayer is useless?? What are you talking about?? Maybe, prayers are useless for those people who only pray when needed. ANd when they finally get they want, they forget praying...

Never say that prayer is useless. Because many people's live out there are proofs that it's effective. Listen to them.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
Never say that prayer is useless. Because many people's live out there are proofs that it's effective. Listen to them.


Thatís exactly what studies like these seek to address. It is irrelevant if religious people think that prayer is effective. Just like their faith, it is unsubstantiated belief.

If prayer is useful, then studies like this will support that claim. As with similar studies into positive thinking, witchcraft, psychic powers, pyramid power and ley lines, prayer has proven to be useless.

Prayer produces no verifiable, repeatable, materialistic or tangible proof to support the claims that it is useful.
Kaeroll
Speaking from personal experience only here...

Prayer may not have any tangible effects, but I think it can still be useful. Many years ago, I was a Christian*, insofar as I believed in God and the Bible and so on, in a fairly rational way, I like to think (never swallowed it whole ... in fact, beyond the idea of God, most if it never sat well with me). Prayer helped me personally through my parents' divorce (I'd had a pretty sheltered life til that point). Doesn't sound like much, but for an 11 year old me, it was the end of the world.

I did what a lot of people apparently do, and asked for a 'sign'. I got one. I'd rather not discuss that, as it's very personal to me, but it's besides the point anyway. From discussions with various people, a lot of people have had very similar experiences to me in this respect. In hindsight, I don't think God is at work here - I think the human brain's capacity to fool itself is responsible for the effects prayer has, i.e. we assign prayer as a cause to an unrelated event. Does that make sense to anyone? I hope so...

So G.S., point is, I disagree that prayer is useless .. it may not be able to save a cancer patient (apparently), but I think it can definitely produce results, anecdotal they may be.


*Newguy - I know what you're thinking, but to me at that time, I thought that was what Christianity was about.
Steveo
QUOTE
Thatís exactly what studies like these seek to address. It is irrelevant if religious people think that prayer is effective. Just like their faith, it is unsubstantiated belief.

If prayer is useful, then studies like this will support that claim. As with similar studies into positive thinking, witchcraft, psychic powers, pyramid power and ley lines, prayer has proven to be useless.

Prayer produces no verifiable, repeatable, materialistic or tangible proof to support the claims that it is useful.


I happen to agree with Kaeroll....and he beat me to it......jerk haha.

Prayer may not produce any verifiable results (might be argued by some, but lets not get into that, as it has been beaten to death already), but if it eases anxiety, gives peace of mind, or generally helps improve a person's feelings/mood/outlook, etc... it can definately be useful. Even if a person still dies....if they are happier for their remaining time.....it was effective, even if we can't measure it.

Prayer is useless to me because of my beliefs, but I won't say its uesless in someone else's life, even if I am sure that it didn't do anything tangible for them.
newguy
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
Thatís exactly what studies like these seek to address. It is irrelevant if religious people think that prayer is effective. Just like their faith, it is unsubstantiated belief.

If prayer is useful, then studies like this will support that claim. As with similar studies into positive thinking, witchcraft, psychic powers, pyramid power and ley lines, prayer has proven to be useless.

Prayer produces no verifiable, repeatable, materialistic or tangible proof to support the claims that it is useful.


Just more BS from GS. This so-called "study"(as has already been pointed out, but has fallen on deaf ears) was conducted by a foundation whose beliefs are in direct contrast to Biblical Christianity and those who were "praying" also hold to beliefs that are in direct contrast to Biblical Christianity. My prayers have been answered for many years, with tangible results, and GS's ignorance will never change that FACT.

Maybe I should just get a bunch of guys(could probably find a whole bunch on this forum alone) who "claim" they are "scientists"(hey, in GS's world, a "claim" is good enough...when it's to his advantage, that is) to conduct some "scientific studies". When their "studies" produce negative results(due to the fact that they're not really scientists), then, according to GS's wishy-washy, whatever-works-for-him-at-the-moment "logic", "science" is useless.

It's funny(not really) that GS allows for psuedo-scientists but doesn't allow for false converts, false teachers, false apostles, false Christs, false brethren, etc., etc., etc. within professing Christianity, even though the Bible clearly warns about all of them repeatedly. But when your beliefs are as "fluid" as GS's apparently are, then it all almost makes sense, doesn't it?

Let me make my offer plain, again...

GeneSplicer:

I have stated repeatedly that I have either successfully prayed for the healing of many individuals in Jesus Christ's name or successfully prayed "deliverance"(casting out of demons) for many individuals in Jesus Christ's name over the years. I have also repeatedly stated that many of these individuals presently HATE MY GUTS because I addressed the issue of SIN in their lives. Here is my offer...

Would you like the names of some of these individuals?

Would you like to contact them and see what they have to say about my "claims"?

Here is your BIG chance to discredit me and my "claims". Come on. The deck is heavily stacked in your favor, just the way you like it. As I said, most of them HATE MY GUTS. I'll even start you off with a list of those who HATE ME the most. There's a good chance that they'll tell some nice, BIG, juicy lies about me. Think about it. Many forums members will probably hail you as their king if you can shut me up once and for all. Come on. I dare you.

Put up or shut up.

Personally, I doubt that you'll do either. No, you much prefer to just keep on spouting off your ignorance, don't you? Have a nice ignorant day, won't you?
newguy
QUOTE (Kaeroll+May 3 2006, 04:11 PM)
Speaking from personal experience only here...

Prayer may not have any tangible effects, but I think it can still be useful. Many years ago, I was a Christian*, insofar as I believed in God and the Bible and so on, in a fairly rational way, I like to think (never swallowed it whole ... in fact, beyond the idea of God, most if it never sat well with me). Prayer helped me personally through my parents' divorce (I'd had a pretty sheltered life til that point). Doesn't sound like much, but for an 11 year old me, it was the end of the world.

I did what a lot of people apparently do, and asked for a 'sign'. I got one. I'd rather not discuss that, as it's very personal to me, but it's besides the point anyway. From discussions with various people, a lot of people have had very similar experiences to me in this respect. In hindsight, I don't think God is at work here - I think the human brain's capacity to fool itself is responsible for the effects prayer has, i.e. we assign prayer as a cause to an unrelated event. Does that make sense to anyone? I hope so...

So G.S., point is, I disagree that prayer is useless .. it may not be able to save a cancer patient (apparently), but I think it can definitely produce results, anecdotal they may be.


*Newguy - I know what you're thinking, but to me at that time, I thought that was what Christianity was about.


Kaeroll: I'll just say this...I know that there are many people who simply find solace in the "idea" of a God Who is greater than they are, even if they don't really know God themselves. However, this "truth" does not negate the fact that there are also those on this planet who genuinely know God.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
So G.S., point is, I disagree that prayer is useless .. it may not be able to save a cancer patient (apparently), but I think it can definitely produce results, anecdotal they may be.


Kaeroll & Steveo.

Thatís just the point. You speak about prayer from the point of view of a theist and this is a discussion in regards to the material and physical effect(s) or lack thereof of prayer. I never said prayer was not of use to the theist nor did I address the use of prayer as a crutch. This is strictly about the real-world, measurable and tangible effect(s) of prayer.

So far, none of the claims are supported.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So G.S., point is, I disagree that prayer is useless .. it may not be able to save a cancer patient (apparently), but I think it can definitely produce results, anecdotal they may be.


Kaeroll & Steveo.

Thatís just the point. You speak about prayer from the point of view of a theist and this is a discussion in regards to the material and physical effect(s) or lack thereof of prayer. I never said prayer was not of use to the theist nor did I address the use of prayer as a crutch. This is strictly about the real-world, measurable and tangible effect(s) of prayer.

So far, none of the claims are supported.

Just more BS from GS. This so-called "study"(as has already been pointed out, but has fallen on deaf ears) was conducted by a foundation whose beliefs are in direct contrast to Biblical Christianity and those who were "praying" also hold to beliefs that are in direct contrast to Biblical Christianity. My prayers have been answered for many years, with tangible results, and GS's ignorance will never change that FACT.


And it has already been pointed out that your reasoning as to why this study is not valid is simply because all involved, from those who prayed to the organization paying for the study, were not true adherents of your superstition in your view.

You can claim anything you want, but your claims of healing, casting out evil spirits and demons and that disease is caused by such spirits and demons is nothing more than the claims of a modern primitive. There is no difference between what you claim and similar claims of psychic surgeons, pagans, wiccans and the various witchdoctors still in practice around the world.

QUOTE
It's funny(not really) that GS allows for psuedo-scientists but doesn't allow for false converts, false teachers, false apostles, false Christs, false brethren, etc., etc., etc. within professing Christianity, even though the Bible clearly warns about all of them repeatedly. But when your beliefs are as "fluid" as GS's apparently are, then it all almost makes sense, doesn't it?


And again, I am not the one claiming to be the true follower of a superstition while all others are not. My beliefs are based upon the tangible and material, not a tome of retrofitted and borrowed myths and superstitions.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It's funny(not really) that GS allows for psuedo-scientists but doesn't allow for false converts, false teachers, false apostles, false Christs, false brethren, etc., etc., etc. within professing Christianity, even though the Bible clearly warns about all of them repeatedly. But when your beliefs are as "fluid" as GS's apparently are, then it all almost makes sense, doesn't it?


And again, I am not the one claiming to be the true follower of a superstition while all others are not. My beliefs are based upon the tangible and material, not a tome of retrofitted and borrowed myths and superstitions.

I have stated repeatedly that I have either successfully prayed for the healing of many individuals in Jesus Christ's name or successfully prayed "deliverance"(casting out of demons) for many individuals in Jesus Christ's name over the years. I have also repeatedly stated that many of these individuals presently HATE MY GUTS because I addressed the issue of SIN in their lives. Here is my offer... 
Would you like the names of some of these individuals?

Would you like to contact them and see what they have to say about my "claims"? 


And again, your claims and their claims are just that. Were you not the one to just rant about claims? You seem to overlook the difference. Your claims and the claims of those healed are empty claims devoid of anything to back them up. Such claims cannot be taken legitimately.

QUOTE
Here is your BIG chance to discredit me and my "claims". Come on. The deck is heavily stacked in your favor, just the way you like it. As I said, most of them HATE MY GUTS. I'll even start you off with a list of those who HATE ME the most. There's a good chance that they'll tell some nice, BIG, juicy lies about me. Think about it. Many forums members will probably hail you as their king if you can shut me up once and for all. Come on. I dare you.


And again, these claims are just that. You have nothing material to back them up or to substantiate the claims. In case you still donít understand, science does not work in that manner. Any claim without something verifiable to back it up is just an empty claim.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Here is your BIG chance to discredit me and my "claims". Come on. The deck is heavily stacked in your favor, just the way you like it. As I said, most of them HATE MY GUTS. I'll even start you off with a list of those who HATE ME the most. There's a good chance that they'll tell some nice, BIG, juicy lies about me. Think about it. Many forums members will probably hail you as their king if you can shut me up once and for all. Come on. I dare you.


And again, these claims are just that. You have nothing material to back them up or to substantiate the claims. In case you still donít understand, science does not work in that manner. Any claim without something verifiable to back it up is just an empty claim.

Put up or shut up.


Getting emotional again I see. There is nothing to ďput upĒ to. A person could line up a gaggle of witnesses to Bigfoot, UFOs, ghosts or alien abductions. Without anything other than these empty claims to back them up, their claims are just that.

QUOTE
Personally, I doubt that you'll do either. No, you much prefer to just keep on spouting off your ignorance, don't you? Have a nice ignorant day, won't you?


Ignorance would be to make the superstitious and primitive claims that disease is cause by evil spirits or demon. Willful ignorance would be total disregard to proven medical facts and modern science. The emotional and reactionary rants of a modern-day witchdoctor does not change the established and material fact that prayer is useless in regards to effect on healing.

As far as the emotional crutch goes, that is not up to debate.
newguy
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
Getting emotional again I see.


GeneSplicer: "Emotional"? You "see"? Just your imagination. No wonder you and Grumpy get along so well. You know Grumpy's famous saying, don't you?

"Nature is not constrained by your lack of imagination."

You've got a pretty vivid imagination, alright. I'm calm as a cucumber. In case you haven't realized it yet(and apparently you haven't), ignorant people like you and Grumpy don't "ruffle my feathers" at all. As I've stated many times before, your ignorance does nothing to change reality. Nothing.

QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
Ignorance would be to make the superstitious and primitive claims that disease is cause by evil spirits or demon. Willful ignorance would be total disregard to proven medical facts and modern science. The emotional and reactionary rants of a modern-day witchdoctor does not change the established and material fact that prayer is useless in regards to effect on healing.


That, my friend, if it wasn't so sad, would almost be laughable. I'm the "modern-day witchdoctor"? Just another manifestation of YOUR ignorance. Do a little research on the origins of the medical profession that you're defending, would you? They are the "modern-day witchdoctors", not me. No, I'm afraid(not really) that, much to your chagrin, I'm a modern-day Christian. Bugs you, doesn't it? Figured you'd "chicken out" on my offer...
Steveo
QUOTE
Thatís just the point. You speak about prayer from the point of view of a theist and this is a discussion in regards to the material and physical effect(s) or lack thereof of prayer. I never said prayer was not of use to the theist nor did I address the use of prayer as a crutch. This is strictly about the real-world, measurable and tangible effect(s) of prayer.


There may be both tangible and measurable results, and ones that are not. I am talking all hypothetically right now, but if praying were to give a person peace of mind, it would likely reduce their stress. And there have been plenty of studies done on the benefits of reduced stress. Whether this reduced stress is an artifact of the mind, or from a god, indirectly you would be able to see some tangible evidence. I would lean towards it being an artifact of the mind, however I think prayer could be found to help people in a measurable way, however, not in a life or death situation, in my opinion. But it is hard to measure something as subjective as quality of life, however I am sure that prayer improves some people's quality of life.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Thatís just the point. You speak about prayer from the point of view of a theist and this is a discussion in regards to the material and physical effect(s) or lack thereof of prayer. I never said prayer was not of use to the theist nor did I address the use of prayer as a crutch. This is strictly about the real-world, measurable and tangible effect(s) of prayer.


There may be both tangible and measurable results, and ones that are not. I am talking all hypothetically right now, but if praying were to give a person peace of mind, it would likely reduce their stress. And there have been plenty of studies done on the benefits of reduced stress. Whether this reduced stress is an artifact of the mind, or from a god, indirectly you would be able to see some tangible evidence. I would lean towards it being an artifact of the mind, however I think prayer could be found to help people in a measurable way, however, not in a life or death situation, in my opinion. But it is hard to measure something as subjective as quality of life, however I am sure that prayer improves some people's quality of life.

That, my friend, if it wasn't so sad, would almost be laughable. I'm the "modern-day witchdoctor"? Just another manifestation of YOUR ignorance. Do a little research on the origins of the medical profession that you're defending, would you? They are the "modern-day witchdoctors", not me. No, I'm afraid(not really) that, much to your chagrin, I'm a modern-day Christian. Bugs you, doesn't it? Figured you'd "chicken out" on my offer...


Newguy, the origins of the medical profession in my opinion don't have much of an impact on how medicine is practiced today (except maybe the hippocratic owth), and comparing medical knowledge from 2000 years ago with that of today is also not fair.

Just like science, medicine was also investigated in a much different way in the past than it is today. If we are studying virus's today, we can look at them under electron microscopes and some electron microscopes have resolution down to atomic size. This is a much better way to learn things than some of the stuff used 2000 years ago (I don't even have an example to give of medicine back then). I would think that medicine back then would be a primitive version of 'mom's home remedies' type of medicine. Everyone hears things that their parents, or grandparents have done, like eating chicken noodle soup, or gargling with salt water. These are a result of trial and error, not science. Modern science I don't feel much resembles ancient science.
Ancient mathematicians and 'scientists' were also often numerologers and astrologers as well, but very few of us (there are some) are comparing that with modern science and mathematics.
newguy
QUOTE (Steveo+)
Newguy, the origins of the medical profession in my opinion don't have much of an impact on how medicine is practiced today (except maybe the hippocratic owth), and comparing medical knowledge from 2000 years ago with that of today is also not fair.


Steveo: Umm, speaking of "fairness", shouldn't you have addressed that statement to GeneSplicer? He's the one who likened me to a "modern-day witchdoctor". I, in turn, was merely pointing out his ignorance. My origins come from Christ/Biblical Christianity whereas the medical profession's origins are linked to witchdoctors.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
GeneSplicer: "Emotional"? You "see"? Just your imagination. No wonder you and Grumpy get along so well. You know Grumpy's famous saying, don't you?


So you call your juvenile bravado and theistic rant emotionless? I have said it before, the majority of theist simply react to any questioning their religion as a personal attack and respond in kind. Based upon the preponderance of your posts and the manner in which you reply, juvenile name twisting for example, is a sign of an emotional content in a response. You yourself admit to such indulgence.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
GeneSplicer: "Emotional"? You "see"? Just your imagination. No wonder you and Grumpy get along so well. You know Grumpy's famous saying, don't you?


So you call your juvenile bravado and theistic rant emotionless? I have said it before, the majority of theist simply react to any questioning their religion as a personal attack and respond in kind. Based upon the preponderance of your posts and the manner in which you reply, juvenile name twisting for example, is a sign of an emotional content in a response. You yourself admit to such indulgence.

You've got a pretty vivid imagination, alright. I'm calm as a cucumber. In case you haven't realized it yet(and apparently you haven't), ignorant people like you and Grumpy don't "ruffle my feathers" at all. As I've stated many times before, your ignorance does nothing to change reality. Nothing

And you are not that good of a liar. If you were not bothered or upset about others who challenge your superstitious claims then why bother to reply? If you are going to fall back on that ďIím here to educate and set the recordĒ excuse, you can save the time. A simple debate challenge or rebuttal to the post(s) made would not include all of the rhetoric, juvenile outburst and emotion you drop into your posts.

QUOTE
That, my friend, if it wasn't so sad, would almost be laughable. I'm the "modern-day witchdoctor"? Just another manifestation of YOUR ignorance.

You pray to a sky god, address disease as the result of spirit possession and claim that casting out said spirits will result in tumors spontaneously being expelled from the body of the afflicted. These are not any more credible or legitimate as the same claims made by faith healers and psychic surgeons still in practice today.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
That, my friend, if it wasn't so sad, would almost be laughable. I'm the "modern-day witchdoctor"? Just another manifestation of YOUR ignorance.

You pray to a sky god, address disease as the result of spirit possession and claim that casting out said spirits will result in tumors spontaneously being expelled from the body of the afflicted. These are not any more credible or legitimate as the same claims made by faith healers and psychic surgeons still in practice today.

Do a little research on the origins of the medical profession that you're defending, would you?  They are the "modern-day witchdoctors", not me.


The origin of many disciplines started clouded by myth, superstition and such. The more relevant point is that those disciples finally left such trappings behind. Mankind is moving away form the superstitious and mythical.

How exactly are they? How are and scientist today modern day witchdoctors?

QUOTE
No, I'm afraid(not really) that, much to your chagrin, I'm a modern-day Christian.

And you seem no to understand that that is the same thing as a modern-day primitive. You still are engaging in no less than praying to a sky god and casting out demon rather than finding a more logical and ration viewpoint.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
No, I'm afraid(not really) that, much to your chagrin, I'm a modern-day Christian.

And you seem no to understand that that is the same thing as a modern-day primitive. You still are engaging in no less than praying to a sky god and casting out demon rather than finding a more logical and ration viewpoint.

Bugs you, doesn't it?


Not at all. You and your fellow primitives are free to wallow in whatever superstition you wish. But, as I said before, when you try to push that same superstition onto the rest of the world or claim it is equal to scientific pursuits, you will be challenged. And just as the recent nonsense with ID/CS, you will be exposed for the primitives you are.

QUOTE
Figured you'd "chicken out" on my offer...


And that is supposed to be an unemotional and rational response? ďChicken outĒ smacks of some childish playground challenge.

And again, bring something to the discussion that is material or verifiable rather than making empty claims or empty challenges.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
There may be both tangible and measurable results, and ones that are not. I am talking all hypothetically right now, but if praying were to give a person peace of mind, it would likely reduce their stress. And there have been plenty of studies done on the benefits of reduced stress. Whether this reduced stress is an artifact of the mind, or from a god, indirectly you would be able to see some tangible evidence. I would lean towards it being an artifact of the mind, however I think prayer could be found to help people in a measurable way, however, not in a life or death situation, in my opinion. But it is hard to measure something as subjective as quality of life, however I am sure that prayer improves some people's quality of life.


Prayer may sooth a theist but many forms of directed thought to the same such as meditation. This is not the same as one person paying for another and effecting, either good or bad, the healing of the person prayed for.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There may be both tangible and measurable results, and ones that are not. I am talking all hypothetically right now, but if praying were to give a person peace of mind, it would likely reduce their stress. And there have been plenty of studies done on the benefits of reduced stress. Whether this reduced stress is an artifact of the mind, or from a god, indirectly you would be able to see some tangible evidence. I would lean towards it being an artifact of the mind, however I think prayer could be found to help people in a measurable way, however, not in a life or death situation, in my opinion. But it is hard to measure something as subjective as quality of life, however I am sure that prayer improves some people's quality of life.


Prayer may sooth a theist but many forms of directed thought to the same such as meditation. This is not the same as one person paying for another and effecting, either good or bad, the healing of the person prayed for.

My origins come from Christ/Biblical Christianity whereas the medical profession's origins are linked to witchdoctors.


So one set of superstitions and myths versus another set. Are you trying to claim that your particular set of superstitions and myths are superior to all others again?

If not, then you are no better and no worse than a modern pagan, a wiccan and similar followers of primitive superstitions.

And to correct you, the organizational body of your superstition was and still is involved in medicine. Take such nonsense and the church's backing male circumcision and trying to find any medical claim to this day to support its use.

Many of the claims that were true in the past are not anymore, but still used by the superstitious to convince parents to mutilate their sons in the name of your god. Not a modern primitive? So I guess it is rational to mutilate your sonís reproductive organs for your god? Iím sure you would not do such a thing, seeing how you are a true xian, but your superstition does tell its flowers to do just that.
newguy
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
And to correct you, the organizational body of your superstition was and still is involved in medicine. Take such nonsense and the church's backing male circumcision and trying to find any medical claim to this day to support its use.

Many of the claims that were true in the past are not anymore, but still used by the superstitious to convince parents to mutilate their sons in the name of your god. Not a modern primitive? So I guess it is rational to mutilate your sonís reproductive organs for your god? Iím sure you would not do such a thing, seeing how you are a true xian, but your superstition does tell its flowers to do just that.


So many ignoramuses...so little time.

GeneSplicer: You're supposed to "correct" someone with the truth, not more ignorance.

"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."(I Corinthians 7:18-19)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
(Galatians 5:6)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."(Galatians 6:15)


Need more or will this suffice? Circumcision was never practiced under the Old Covenant or Old Testament for "medical" reasons. It was merely supposed to be symbolic of the "circumcision of the heart" and of the "putting off the sins of the flesh" that had taken place among God's true people. To most, it was just another religious practice, hence, the following types of admonitions in scripture:

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."(Deuteronomy 10:16)

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."(Acts 7:51)

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."(Romans 2:28-29)

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ..."
(Colossians 2:10-11)


Do feel free to give me some more *ahem* "correction" from the scriptures, won't you? I'll get to some more of your ignorance later.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
So many ignoramuses...so little time.

GeneSplicer: You're supposed to "correct" someone with the truth, not more ignorance.


And there's that elitist xian attitude again. You speak of ignorance while hiding behind that selective filter of yours again.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So many ignoramuses...so little time.

GeneSplicer: You're supposed to "correct" someone with the truth, not more ignorance.


And there's that elitist xian attitude again. You speak of ignorance while hiding behind that selective filter of yours again.

Need more or will this suffice? Circumcision was never practiced under the Old Covenant or Old Testament for "medical" reasons. It was merely supposed to be symbolic of the "circumcision of the heart" and of the "putting off the sins of the flesh" that had taken place among God's true people. To most, it was just another religious practice, hence, the following types of admonitions in scripture:


You may think you are the only true xian and superior to so many others, but you are still avoiding reality. Try to follow the topic of my post and what they say, not what you think they say.

Your superstitions leaders have used medical claims to support the mutilation of the reproductive organs of young boys. Your superstition is of the judeo-xian variety is it not? While you may think you are the only true representative of your particular superstition, you again ignore the real world.

Your quoting scripture simply supports my claim about your fluid faith. Your view of your superstition makes you take one stance while others of your superstition take yet another, all claiming to be representative of the real superstition.

Circumcision has root in your superstition and is supported by many xians based upon this and using weak and dubious medical claim that no longer apply to modern man.

QUOTE
Do feel free to give me some more *ahem* "correction" from the scriptures, won't you? I'll get to some more of your ignorance later.


Why would I quote a tome from your superstition when the facts to support my claim are found in the real world? Your problem is that between your selective filter and xian colored vision, you ignore reality and the tangible preferring to rely on spins originated from your mythic tome.

Rather than post more from this irrelevant tome, try real world facts to debate with. When challenged that your superstition is used to support genital mutilations in our world today, where do you turn for facts regarding the real world? To your religious book. Why not drop the elitist xian attitude or is that also the sign of a true xian?

Try some real world and relevant sites. Iím sure since this is a site and organization that seeks to end the barbaric practice of mutilating genitalia of male children in order to appease your sky god that it is not only wrong but not xian and summarily dismissible by you.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Do feel free to give me some more *ahem* "correction" from the scriptures, won't you? I'll get to some more of your ignorance later.


Why would I quote a tome from your superstition when the facts to support my claim are found in the real world? Your problem is that between your selective filter and xian colored vision, you ignore reality and the tangible preferring to rely on spins originated from your mythic tome.

Rather than post more from this irrelevant tome, try real world facts to debate with. When challenged that your superstition is used to support genital mutilations in our world today, where do you turn for facts regarding the real world? To your religious book. Why not drop the elitist xian attitude or is that also the sign of a true xian?

Try some real world and relevant sites. Iím sure since this is a site and organization that seeks to end the barbaric practice of mutilating genitalia of male children in order to appease your sky god that it is not only wrong but not xian and summarily dismissible by you.

Link

The practice of the painful mutilation of the foreskins of infant males in America rests upon biblical and religious traditions plus spurious medical fiction (prevention of penile infection, penile cancer, cervical cancer in partners of uncircumcised males). It is my intention to examine the biblical background for the practice of circumcision.


QUOTE
Link
From myth to medicine
Circumcision evolved from a religious ritual or puberty rite into routine surgery for "health" reasons in the English-speaking countries during the nineteenth century when the etiology of most diseases was unknown: "Within the miasma of myth and ignorance, a theory emerged that masturbation caused many and varied ills. It seemed logical to some physicians to perform genital surgery on both sexes to stop masturbation" (5). In 1891, P. C. Remondino, MD, advocated circumcision to prevent or cure alcoholism, epilepsy, asthma, hernia, gout, rheumatism, curvature of the spine and headaches (6). His book was last printed in 1974, the same year that one physician, writing in Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, called the book "pertinent and carefully thought out" (7).

If all you read is superstition and myth, that is all you will know.
newguy
GeneSplicer: Wow! That was pretty impressive! I never thought someone could cite the word "superstition" as much as you did in just one post. Great job! Did you convince yourself yet? Got any other "mantras" for us or do you just like to hear yourself talk? Since you apparently have a bottomless pit of ignorance, I'll just quickly note the following, instead of diving in headfirst:

QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
And there's that elitist xian attitude again.


QUOTE (GeneSplicer+)
Why not drop the elitist xian attitude or is that also the sign of a true xian?


This is coming from a guy who advocates the following website, of which he's the webmaster, on the bottom of his posts:

http://www.theshallowgenepool.com/

THE SHALLOW GENE POOL

Some of us never evolved


[removed]

Welcome to the Shallow Gene Pool where we take a look at the support, development and examples of the shallow end of the human gene pool. We will also delve into skeptical and rational thought regarding politics, science and emerging technologies that impact our society and world.

Any and all comments are encouraged and welcomed however, representatives of the SGP who contact me will be held responsible for what they write. Be clear, succinct and civil. Messages of merit, and of course flames, will be posted in their respected areas.


Here's my favorite part. It's under "contact us":

Contact Gene Splicer

Don't like this site? Offended? Have suggestions? Then send a message to Gene Splicer, webmaster of The Shallow Gene Pool. The form is simple enough, even for members of the SGP. I will place praise and flames in the appropriate area. Remember, Be clear, succinct and civil.

Name (if you dare):


Oooh! "If you dare"! I've been "daring" enough to give you my name. Heck, you even know where I live, don't you? I also was "daring" enough to suggest you research some of my "claims", as you call them. Tell me again, please...Who is it that has the "juvenile bravado", you or me?

So I'm part of the SGP(shallow gene pool), eh? That's funny(not really)...I don't remember signing any registration papers. You fancy yourself to be "baptized" in wisdom while most of the rest of us are merely "getting our tootsies wet", eh? Nah. Nothing "elitist" about that. Or how about the thread that you started? You know the one that I'm talking about, don't you? Let me see if I can help you(you need all the help that you can get), okay? It's called:

"The Marching Morons and Mankind's Future"

Remember that one? You can find it here:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=5691

Nah. Nothing "elitist" about that either.

Take a good, long look in the mirror, buddy, would you? Or, if you prefer:

"Physician, heal thyself."(Luke 4:23)

No? Not interested? Well, then enjoy your ignorance. Yeah, yeah, I know:

"Superstition"..."tome"..."myth"..."ad hominem"...blah, blah, blah.

Unemotionally yours,

newguy
Your fellow human (yfh)
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+May 3 2006, 04:04 PM)
As with similar studies into positive thinking, witchcraft, psychic powers, pyramid power and ley lines, prayer has proven to be useless.

Did I read what you said properly?
I think you said allot of these things "don't work", including positive thinking?
That's a pretty big chopping block you got there, sport.

http://www.psipog.net/show.php?id=10167
^ Telepathy--for example, has been proven.

There's a big difference between a crazey person claiming to have magick powers--compared to a gifted person training and practicing for years, then developing less-then-easily-explainable, true "powers".

Ancient technology was messed up. Ideas of gods effected everything that they did, but things such as "magick" may-well-have-been more advanced/developed in some cultures then, compared to now. Why? Some "technologies" are purely subjective and cannot really be written down then repeated. The psionic arts don't really get passed down very well from generation to generation through language, thus their advancement stays rather now, as the modern science grows expotentially.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
GeneSplicer: Wow! That was pretty impressive! I never thought someone could cite the word "superstition" as much as you did in just one post. Great job! Did you convince yourself yet? Got any other "mantras" for us or do you just like to hear yourself talk? Since you apparently have a bottomless pit of ignorance, I'll just quickly note the following, instead of diving in headfirst:


Exercising that selective filter against and going off on another tangent. I see no comments about the topic of the last post. What I do see is you reaching to make another baseless personal point.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
GeneSplicer: Wow! That was pretty impressive! I never thought someone could cite the word "superstition" as much as you did in just one post. Great job! Did you convince yourself yet? Got any other "mantras" for us or do you just like to hear yourself talk? Since you apparently have a bottomless pit of ignorance, I'll just quickly note the following, instead of diving in headfirst:


Exercising that selective filter against and going off on another tangent. I see no comments about the topic of the last post. What I do see is you reaching to make another baseless personal point.

Oooh! "If you dare"! I've been "daring" enough to give you my name. Heck, you even know where I live, don't you? I also was "daring" enough to suggest you research some of my "claims", as you call them. Tell me again, please...Who is it that has the "juvenile bravado", you or me?


Selective filter and tangent again. Have you ever run a forum or website that accepts feedback or controversial subjects? Take this forum for example. How many anonymous or flaming posts do you see here? My asking for a name is related to that reality of comments posted on the web.

Quite frankly, I got tired of the death threats to me and my family from adherents of your religion, so I initiated some changes on the website. Amazing how many of your fellow superstition adherents stopped writing once I made that change.

AS you quoted from my website:

QUOTE
representatives of the SGP who contact me will be held responsible for what they write.


Written with the flamers in mind.

If I were acting in the same manner towards you or anyone else in this forum you would have a point. Considering I did not nor do I make such challenges, claim to be the only true member of a group or ideology or indulge in juvenile name-calling and challenges, your claims are baseless.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
representatives of the SGP who contact me will be held responsible for what they write.


Written with the flamers in mind.

If I were acting in the same manner towards you or anyone else in this forum you would have a point. Considering I did not nor do I make such challenges, claim to be the only true member of a group or ideology or indulge in juvenile name-calling and challenges, your claims are baseless.

So I'm part of the SGP(shallow gene pool), eh? That's funny(not really)...I don't remember signing any registration papers. You fancy yourself to be "baptized" in wisdom while most of the rest of us are merely "getting our tootsies wet", eh? Nah. Nothing "elitist" about that.


So, no emotion there? You must have perceived an attack on you or your ego to write that.

Do you see religion mentioned in what you posted from my website? Have I ever said you were from the shallow end of the gene pool? Have I ever made such a personal comment about others or used and related our conversations on my site or in my podcasts?

The answer would be no.

And again, you base many of the response to topics in this thread by going to your religious tome, rather than use real-world sources. Unlike Stephen Gliksman or you, I have never claimed to have more wisdoms over others or be a ďtrueĒ member of any group or ideology.

Just because I address your superstition as such from a rational and skeptical point of view does not mean I am elitist or consider myself one. And as I have said before, when you question the religion or religious claims of a theist, they take personal offence and respond in kind.

QUOTE
Or how about the thread that you started? You know the one that I'm talking about, don't you? Let me see if I can help you(you need all the help that you can get), okay? It's called:


Have you ever read the short story? Did you read the thread or just stop at the title? Your reactionary post and wooded ego is showing NewGuy. I find it difficult to believe that you actually read the thread. If you did, you would have noticed the following:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Or how about the thread that you started? You know the one that I'm talking about, don't you? Let me see if I can help you(you need all the help that you can get), okay? It's called:


Have you ever read the short story? Did you read the thread or just stop at the title? Your reactionary post and wooded ego is showing NewGuy. I find it difficult to believe that you actually read the thread. If you did, you would have noticed the following:

Taking into account the examples of the theist we have on this board alone (relax NewGuy, you are not one of them), fantasy followers or other such hucksters, is our society on the move away from both them and such a future or are we headed towards the future predicted by Kornbluth?

In the grand scheme of things, can the rational overcome the irrational?


Also one of my posts in the thread:

QUOTE
This is not to sound elitist. The examples of morons in the story is not reflective of the average Joe, but truly morons whose only developed and constant ability is prolific breeding.


Also note that this was a question asking for feedback from others to get their point of view. You also posted responses and examples of those you found to fit the topic at hand. So does that mean you are also an elitist since you added to the thread or am I the only one guilty of that since I started the thread? Your argument here is inconsistent.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This is not to sound elitist. The examples of morons in the story is not reflective of the average Joe, but truly morons whose only developed and constant ability is prolific breeding.


Also note that this was a question asking for feedback from others to get their point of view. You also posted responses and examples of those you found to fit the topic at hand. So does that mean you are also an elitist since you added to the thread or am I the only one guilty of that since I started the thread? Your argument here is inconsistent.

Nah. Nothing "elitist" about that either.
Take a good, long look in the mirror, buddy, would you? Or, if you prefer:
No? Not interested? Well, then enjoy your ignorance. Yeah, yeah, I know:
"Superstition"..."tome"..."myth"..."ad hominem"...blah, blah, blah.
Unemotionally yours,
newguy


It is not elitist to address the negative ramifications of the irrational mindset. One would only perceive this as elitist if one thought that such comment were directed at them. In the context of the thread, I even stated the you were not one of the people I was addressing at the time.

You claim to be unemotional, but your overlooked what my comments were in the Marching Morons thread and what my actions within this forum reflects. If this is unemotional as you claim, then you simply failed to research the material you cited and grabbed at anything to prove your point, relevant or not.
GeneSplicer
QUOTE
Did I read what you said properly?
I think you said allot of these things "don't work", including positive thinking?
That's a pretty big chopping block you got there, sport.


Yes, including positive thinking in regards to healing another person. Again, this is not about personal affects like claiming oneself or providing comfort. This is in the context of prayer and similar claims affecting others.

You think telepathy has been proven? You are free to believe what you want, but experiments, studies and even government-funded projects have not been able to generate support for this or any other claim that any parapsychology or ESP claim.

Correct me if I am wrong, but has there been any controlled study or studies that proved or lend support the claim that paranormal abilities exists?

If you know of any who have such proven abilities, the can easily make 1 million dollars. See http://www.randi.org/ for details. This has been a standing challenge that so far none of the professed paranormal practitioners have either dared to accept or been able to win.
vkamath
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+May 4 2006, 02:13 PM)
If you know of any who have such proven abilities, the can easily make 1 million dollars. See http://www.randi.org/ for details. This has been a standing challenge that so far none of the professed paranormal practitioners have either dared to accept or been able to win.

That is a great challenge.

Newguy, You could demonstrate your healing by prayer and make a million.
newguy
QUOTE (vkamath+May 4 2006, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+May 4 2006, 02:13 PM)
If you know of any who have such proven abilities, the can easily make 1 million dollars.  See http://www.randi.org/ for details.  This has been a standing challenge that so far none of the professed paranormal practitioners have either dared to accept or been able to win.

That is a great challenge.

Newguy, You could demonstrate your healing by prayer and make a million.

vkamath: I'm on my way out the door...I did take a quick look and it seems like "faith healing" fits their description of paranormal. There was a whole lot of things to read in regard to the challenge. I will look at it when I have more time and get back to you. Fair enough? Talk to you then.
Kaeroll
It specifically says "No demons", as you first have to prove THEY exist.

Newguy, I can lend you my little brother if you want ... that's all the proof they'll need.
howtothinklikegod
QUOTE
It specifically says "No demons", as you first have to prove THEY exist.

Newguy, I can lend you my little brother if you want ... that's all the proof they'll need.


Oh?? You sure you can lend your little brother for that? poor boy.. I'm sure in every evil thing, there is really something good. Just hidden. And you really have to look for it. Don't worry coz it will be worth the search.

Do you think the world right now is the living proof that evil really exists?? I think it is...
howtothinklikegod
QUOTE
It specifically says "No demons", as you first have to prove THEY exist.

Newguy, I can lend you my little brother if you want ... that's all the proof they'll need.


Oh?? You sure you can lend your little brother for that? poor boy.. I'm sure in every evil thing, there is really something good. Just hidden. And you really have to look for it. Don't worry coz it will be worth the search.

Do you think the world right now is the living proof that evil really exists?? I think it is...
newguy
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.5

The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal and/or NOT eligible for the Challenge in the past:

UFOs. "Bigfoot" & "Yeti" (or other legendary creatures). Anything that is likely to cause injury. "Cloud-busting". Claims of a Religious or Spiritual nature. Exorcism and/or Demonic Possession. The Existence of Chakras. The Existence of God[s]. Reincarnation. The Existence of the Soul or "Astral Bodies".

There are some claims that are far too implausible to warrant any serious examination, such as the "Breatharian" claims in which the applicant states that he can survive without food or water. Science conclusively tells us all we need to know about such matters, and the JREF feels no obligation to engage applicants in such delusions.

Many of the NOT PARANORMAL claims are listed as such solely because they cannot be properly tested for. For example, in order to prove that Exorcism is real, one must first establish the existence of demons. The JREF is unaware of a manner in which it might be proven that demons exist (or god, or angels or "elementals", for that matter), while remaining open to any suggestions that might change their opinion in this regard.

So, if someone can suggest a test protocol that would conclusively verify such things, the JREF would be willing to hear about it.


vkamath: I briefly revisited the "Challenge" site after reading kaeroll's post. I don't know how to prove that demons exist(I'd have to really think about that one) BEFORE casting them out. Once they are addressed, they will manifest...often with very tangible signs. If their existence needs to be "proven" prior to this, then I'm not sure(at least, not at the moment) how one could do that. Anyways...
vkamath
Newguy,

Here is my understanding -

Exorcism : Person A is behaving oddly. Person B claims that Person A is possessed by the devil. Person B performs exorcism and Person A is now normal.

Faith Healing : Person A demonstrates symptoms of an illness. Person B claims that Person A is possessed by the devil. Person B performs Faith Healing or Exorcism and Person B is cured.

It is very easy to prove Faith Healing. A doctor has to first confirm that the person is actually sick. Then if the faith healer cures him using a process unknown to Medical Science, there is the proof.
newguy
QUOTE (vkamath+May 5 2006, 04:24 PM)
Newguy,

Here is my understanding -

Exorcism : Person A is behaving oddly. Person B claims that Person A is possessed by the devil. Person B performs exorcism and Person A is now normal.

Faith Healing : Person A demonstrates symptoms of an illness. Person B claims that Person A is possessed by the devil. Person B performs Faith Healing or Exorcism and Person B is cured.

It is very easy to prove Faith Healing. A doctor has to first confirm that the person is actually sick. Then if the faith healer cures him using a process unknown to Medical Science, there is the proof.

vkamath: I have no problems with your scenario, however, I'm not the one that you would need to convince. The people at the "Challenge" site said that they are open to suggestions. Why not run it by them and see what they say? I'm assuming that they won't go for it. A few people on this forum alone have tried to apply natural reasons to the outcomes I've described after praying for someone's deliverance. I'm assuming that the people at the "Challenge" site will only do the same. I could be wrong...
vkamath
QUOTE (Newguy+)
I have no problems with your scenario, however, I'm not the one that you would need to convince. The people at the "Challenge" site said that they are open to suggestions. Why not run it by them and see what they say?


I see no reason why I should run it by them. You are the one claiming to be a faith healer, not me.

QUOTE (Newguy+)
A few people on this forum alone have tried to apply natural reasons to the outcomes I've described after praying for someone's deliverance. I'm assuming that the people at the "Challenge" site will only do the same. I could be wrong
...

Rational people will always look for natural reasons for the outcomes. Most normal people are not in 'spiritual warfare' frame of mind. In fact many people go through their entire lives without having a single supernatural experience.

I was not expecting you to take up this challenge anyway. I was just curious to know your response.
newguy
vkamath: I must confess that I was surprised by your response. Who said I wouldn't take up the challenge? Certainly not me. If you think I'm a fraud, then the least you can do is run your suggestion by the people at the "Challenge" site. I promise not to run away if they agree with your suggestion. Here's your chance...GeneSplicer already passed on his, coward that he is. I've faced evil spirits in the supernatural realm and many angry mobs in the natural realm. Your "challenge" doesn't move me in the least. The ball's in your court...

P.S. I just noticed oomchu's "feedback" under my username. He says I'm a "dumbass...pure and simple". It shall be my pleasure to pay for oomchu's ticket if they accept your suggestion. We'll see who the "dumbass" is. Later...
vkamath
QUOTE (newguy+)
If you think I'm a fraud, then the least you can do is run your suggestion by the people at the "Challenge" site. I promise not to run away if they agree with your suggestion. Here's your chance...


My answer remains the same. See my previous post.
blue_bottle

To know that someone is praying for you can be an uplifting experience. To know that someone cares that much improves your mental state, and therefore could have a knock on effect to their physical well being. It seems mostly psychological, but it has it's basis in biology to. This is true faith healing.

This is the true mirical. Making people care about each other enough. in this world that doesn't happen that often.
armed reaper
This is a true story, constider it my testamony. Dr.wackes went and lived on an island in indonesia for some time because he was carrying out missionary work there, there were Christian vilages, and non Christian vilages, a woman who was living in a non Christian vilage died, her death was witnessed by many, she was truly dead, no heart beat or anything. She "woke up" and started talking about someone called Elijah that asked her if she wanted to live in paradice forever, she said yes, he told her to move to the Christian village, and she did. On that island, they hadn't seen a white man ever. they knew nothing about metal. The woman who died didn't know anything about Christianity when she died, but when she came back, she knew names that would be impossible to know if you didn't live in a christian village.

There are many true accounts of these things happening on that island, and only God could be responsible.
armed reaper
You should list evolution under that list of things you can't prove, there aren't any true between stages, there were sposta be 1000's and not one has been found ever, so evolution is a religion as much as Christianity is.
GeneSplicer
Friendly suggestion. Do some research prior to posting uninformed canned theistic comments.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

Evolution itself is not argued but considered fact, as much as any scientific principle or theory can be considered such. What is argued is the mechanisms behind evolution.

Unlike the various superstitions, evolution is not faith-based.
armed reaper
actually it is, think about it, darwin came up with it, something that happened, according to him billions of years before him, so you must take on faith what he found, and dont take it lightly, cus its the difference between heaven and hell.
howtothinklikegod
QUOTE
Unlike the various superstitions, evolution is not faith-based


Genesplicer, evolution is also a science. Science requires faith. (look at einstein)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Unlike the various superstitions, evolution is not faith-based


Genesplicer, evolution is also a science. Science requires faith. (look at einstein)

the difference between heaven and hell.


I don't think Darwin knows about that. He's just a scientist.And who knows if there is really a heaven or a hell??
vkamath
QUOTE (howtothinklikegod+May 17 2006, 05:20 AM)
Genesplicer, evolution is also a science. Science requires faith. (look at einstein)

Science does not require faith. Science requires repeatable experiments and valid proofs. It is religion which requires only faith and nothing else.
T-cell
QUOTE (vkamath+May 17 2006, 09:36 AM)
It is religion which requires only faith and nothing else.


I wish. Not in my faith is that the only thing required. In Christianity- the Apostle James said- "faith without works is dead".
You can't be a true Christian unless you're trying to do what Christ says.
There are a number of passages I could list explaining this. On the hand, works alone won't cut it either. Why both? For someone to understand, there is a time and a place. Only that individual and God knows (when one truly desires to know Him, at that time and place, He'll come in to their life). All the understanding will come with it. But to the unbelieving reader, be careful for what you ask for-

~ For it is better to have never known Him, than to have known Him and rejected His Word. Even Satan knows the Almighty, he simply chooses to reject Him. ~

It would appear better to stay clear if you're still sitting on the picket fence. I didn't have a choice. Though both my parents were agnostic at best, in my earliest recollections, I seem to have always known Him (Christ) as God. Things that make you go "What the fu<k"?
blue_bottle

Actions supported by a faith in God are nice, but it is the actions more than anything which are in tune with Jesus' teaching which contribute the most.

Gandi didn't believe in my God. But if he has to sit outside the bloody gates of Pearly I'm stayin too!
Fyhsics
well well well...interesting discussion going on....eh jus started posting so im gona start from the start in relation to this thread... let me try to start an argument that i have been craving to defend for a long time:
Religion and science are two different things that lead on the same path...God exists and there are a number of ways to prove it..begining with the basics the big bang...a single point that exploded eventually forming the universe today starting with infinite curvature and density. Now what Hubble found was that galaxies are continously expanding and moving away from us...so then if we reverse the direction of time the radial distance between galaxies must have been smaller and smaller...meaning at one point in the past they were together...which comes to denote the big bang...now how does this prove God well than i ask of you how does this explosion occur than???...b4 this there was only vacuum in terms of matter...and furthur more for the galaxies to expand there must have been some net force in the start to move it apart..so where did it come from?...where did the first primeval atom come from?...not only this but einstein proved this but turned away...why because he didnt like authority and belived there was no higher creatures than humans.... the universe could not have existed forever because as science tells us that galaxies are red-shifted rather than blue-shifted away from us and thts why penzias and wilson got their nobel prize for physics for discovering that background radiation in the universe today the three degress that hasnt cooled yet....so all this points to an explosion that happened..and today top physicist stephan hawking even explains it so and belives that God exists.....in tht book he published recently.....
blue_bottle
QUOTE (Fyhsics+May 29 2006, 03:27 PM)
well well well...interesting discussion going on....eh jus started posting so im gona start from the start in relation to this thread... let me try to start an argument that i have been craving to defend for a long time:
Religion and science are two different things that lead on the same path...God exists and there are a number of ways to prove it..begining with the basics the big bang...a single point that exploded eventually forming the universe today starting with infinite curvature and density. Now what Hubble found was that galaxies are continously expanding and moving away from us...so then if we reverse the direction of time the radial distance between galaxies must have been smaller and smaller...meaning at one point in the past they were together...which comes to denote the big bang...now how does this prove God well than i ask of you how does this explosion occur than???...b4 this there was only vacuum in terms of matter...and furthur more for the galaxies to expand there must have been some net force in the start to move it apart..so where did it come from?...where did the first primeval atom come from?...not only this but einstein proved this but turned away...why because he didnt like authority and belived there was no higher creatures than humans.... the universe could not have existed forever because as science tells us that galaxies are red-shifted rather than blue-shifted away from us and thts why penzias and wilson got their nobel prize for physics for discovering that background radiation in the universe today the three degress that hasnt cooled yet....so all this points to an explosion that happened..and today top physicist stephan hawking even explains it so and belives that God exists.....in tht book he published recently.....


But there are probably a hundred other ways that it could happen. A steady state, and oscillating universe etc.

This is what I mean. Science and religion are two different things, so why then do you seek to use scientific methods to prove God?
SENT
OK, I'm about to reveal what some would consider to be the proof that I'm a cracked pot, and what other would consider proof that I have an open mind, but you decide. blink.gif

When I'm not doing computers I practice intended manipulation, reiki, and on a regular basis observe energy fields (some call them auras). Yes, to the skeptic that sounds like make believe gibberish that has no merit beyond fairy tales, but here's the thing ... to me it is real. That's not to say I don't believe that science won't soon discover a way to measure the energy I speak of, but for right now some would call it a figment of my imagination. That's fine, but my "imagination" has be felt hundreds of miles away by people who weren't sure whether they believed or not, my "imagination" has helped people lessen, if not quit their medications, and my "imagination" has done things that most would consider miracles. This is of no real importance to the topic other than giving reason for my next statement.

Intention is the key to all of it.

When doing a healing session I intend that something happen, and I hold that intention for a while. That's it.
When manipulating things, I form a clear intention (an image), and hold that image. Nothing more.
In order to "see" this energy field I first have to intend that I see it.

The hilarity of it is in my youth I was a christian who sincerely wanted all the things spoken of in the bible, but every time I asked a question about the "faith" I was met with hostility, or the blanket "have faith" excuse. Oddly enough, when I was old enough to pursue these questions on my own I found that the reason they couldn't answer my questions is because they never bothered to research the validity of their holey tome. Why mention this? I've read many posts by fundamentalist christians in this forum saying they have "proof" that their god is real because of all the "demons" cast out, or "signs" they've been shown (not a dig newguy), but I've had the same experiences AFTER letting go of the "faith".

The point being, we humans have such great potential, and every generation looks back on previous generations, and wonders how they could have held such superstitions as an assumed part of reality. Someday we'll do the same for this generation, and when that time comes we can look back on some of these conversations and laugh at ourselves.

Until then, an open mind is always a good place to start. biggrin.gif

Just my thoughts.
MajinBu
Praying or anything else for that matter that makes you "feel at ease" helps the healing process. Now I'm no physician, but your mind is connected with your body. You wanting to heal triggers reactions in your system that somewhat helps your need to fix your wounds. Of course if your hurt badly, the simple "wish" wont get you much help.
SENT
If by wish you mean you really want it to happen then you'll have to come up with a better argument than that. There are plenty of studies that are in progress now, and have been done in the past that have concluded that the realm of intention needs to be further studied, because the results show significant change in the direction of the intention.

For one example of such studies see this thread >> God, what he really is, and proof, RIGHT HERE!, A "theory" -- which is most likely true!

Specifically here

Prayer falls in line with this. It is a form of intention specifically to a "higher power", but more importantly it is an intended intervention, which, IMO, is what makes it work at all.
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here youíll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.