To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: Global warming
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > News discussions > Space & Earth Sciences News

DrPhysics
http://www.physorg.com/news75569923.html

Ms. Williams ..... fear not ...... no barbecuing for me for the next week. Just wanted you to know we"re doing our part. You might want to check the global climatological history while you"re at it. Get back to us on the answers to those two questions: 1) how we got out of the last ice age; and 2) how DID all that oil get under Saudi Arabia

Hey Rubberman ...... don"t you have a phrase for comments such as hers? Some thing involving "flat earth society"?
Upisoft
QUOTE (DrPhysics+Sep 2 2006, 12:49 AM)
Hey Rubberman ...... don"t you have a phrase for comments such as hers?  Some thing involving "flat earth society"?

What? The ice wall at the edge of the earth is in danger?? laugh.gif laugh.gif
adoucette
The village in question.

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/human-shishmaref.shtml

Its OBVIOUS that NO LAND can stand forever against the rising sea.

It might help to mention that the sea has been rising for ~18,000 years

It might help to mention that the rate of sea rise is not accelerating.

Oh, but THAT would ruin a good STORY.

Arthur
Markinosis
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 2 2006, 12:18 AM)
Its OBVIOUS that NO LAND can stand forever against the rising sea.

It might help to mention that the sea has been rising for ~18,000 years

It might help to mention that the rate of sea rise is not accelerating.

Oh, but THAT would ruin a good STORY.

Arthur

Is it your habit to cast doubt and look through conspiracy tones and doubtful eyes at EVERYONE?

Let alone, that these people are MUCH more educated and of higher expertise & respect than you here, with more experience and statistics present.
Also more critiques, who are awrae of facts.

Like for instance: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5303574.stm

And now you''ll say that even the president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, a LEAD Professor, is lying to sell a "good" story.

Simply covering your own ***, or that of an acolyte to Bush when near enough EVERY EXPERT is mentioning this:

"Professor Holdren expressed doubt that progress could be achieved because if the US administration agreed that there was a need to limit CO2, this would inevitably lead to mandatory caps. President Bush has already rejected that option."

But of course, in YOUR world, it all boils down to disingenuous people after good 'ol attention and a story. laugh.gif

Riiiite! Wake up fella.

Let alone niggling. Its TRUE, its REAL, what are you gunna do about it?
adoucette
You mean, am I SURPRISED that the Teresa and John Heinz Professor of Environmental Policy at Harvard University.
QUOTE
blamed President Bush


NO

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Wake up and SMELL the coffee.

Arthur

Markinosis
Arthur

Source: Wikipedia

User posted image

What we CAN say from the above is: temperatures on a geological scale (much bigger) have on average increased rapidly since the Industrial age in predominately by far Europe and N.America.

User posted image

From what that shows, "world temperature is believed to have been relatively stable" before hand, for at least 2000 years, which ties in with Evolutioniary assumptions and radiometrics dating strategies, which primarily indicate the environmental climate the tree has experienced. We know that for ~11,000 years at least I believe.

EXPERTS: "Climatologists agree that the earth has warmed recently"

"the scientific consensus identifies greenhouse gases as the primary cause of the recent warming."

ALL AGREED!

User posted image

"Adding carbon dioxide (CO2) or methane (CH4) to Earth's atmosphere, with no other changes, will make the planet's surface warmer; greenhouse gases create a natural greenhouse effect without which temperatures on Earth would be an estimated 30 °C (54 °F) lower, and the Earth uninhabitable"

NOTE: "Industrial Revolution"

User posted image

MOST of the above, BILLIONS of processes, actually probably many ZILLIONS, anthropogenic never existed before the 1600s at all.
Since we KNOW they create this "toxic" waste of gases, NEVER before seen, theres no other view possible.

"In the journal Science, an essay by Naomi Oreskes considered the abstracts of all 928 scientific articles in the ISI citation database identified with the keyword "global climate change". Dr. Oreskes concluded that none of these abstracts attempt to refute the position that man-made emissions of greenhouse gases are a substantial contributor to recent warming."

So yes, ALL experts agree, obviously except for you ( a non-expert) here.

The rest of the article will also prove enlightening for you, if you don't pick and choose.

Let alone the squabbling.
adoucette
In 2006, a panel report of the National Academy of Sciences ordered by the U.S. Congress was published. The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1,000 years.

The committee reported that there is sufficient evidence from tree rings, boreholes, retreating glaciers, and other "proxies" of past surface temperatures to say with a high level of confidence that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years.

Less confidence can be placed in proxy-based reconstructions of surface temperatures for A.D. 900 to 1600, although the available proxy evidence does indicate that many locations were warmer during the past 25 years than during any other 25-year period since 900 [23].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_r...past_1000_years


So what your graphs leave out is the INCREASING uncertainty of the temps as you go back in time.

What we DO know is that there is SIGNIFICANT HISTORICAL data to suggest that the MWP was FAR WARMER than present.

As far as your 400,000 ice bore temp, WHAT YOU LEAVE OUT is that the rise in CO2 LAGS the temp rise.

So what the EVIDENCE shows is that RISING TEMPS cause the oceans to outgas CO2.

Big surprise there.

So, why not a graph on the % of NATURAL CO2 generated vs the % of human generated CO2?

Why not a study showing the climatic impact of MASSIVE releases of CO2 during Volcanic eruptions?

Might they not agree with your notion?

As far as your attempt to label CO2 as a "toxic" gas, what you leave out is that ALL THE FOOD ON THE PLANET BEGINS WITH CO2 and that according to NASA the planets NET PRIMARY PRODUCTION is up 6% over the the last decade.

That's a GOOD thing.

Arthur
adoucette
As far as the "Hockey Stick" goes (and Global Warming in general):

if a methodology generates the same results with random
data, as with the real data, it is highly likely the methodology
simply embodies a logical fallacy know as petitio principii, or the
circular argument, where the conclusions are assumed implicitly in
the premises.


http://landshape.org/enm/wp-content/upload..._Mar06%2014.pdf

laugh.gif

Arthur
Markinosis
Arthur,

I like your picture above your name.

Are you a clown?

Past me why you'd leave your name below a bald picture, where its not conveying anything dignified.

Anyway, the first part of your first post, proves the "commonly accepted" view. The doubt is held by a very FEW, and is at its best, PROBABLE, as stated.

QUOTE (Arthur+)
What we DO know is that there is SIGNIFICANT HISTORICAL data to suggest that the MWP was FAR WARMER than present.

I haven't seen any of this SIGNIFICANT "evidence" here. Have you?
If so, the links would work nicely for analyzing,

QUOTE
As far as your 400,000 ice bore temp, WHAT YOU LEAVE OUT is that the rise in CO2 LAGS the temp rise.

Because I didn't have the time nor the resources to post them. Why don't you show them for us.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As far as your 400,000 ice bore temp, WHAT YOU LEAVE OUT is that the rise in CO2 LAGS the temp rise.

Because I didn't have the time nor the resources to post them. Why don't you show them for us.

So, why not a graph on the % of NATURAL CO2 generated vs the % of human generated CO2?

See above.
QUOTE
Why not a study showing the climatic impact of MASSIVE releases of CO2 during Volcanic eruptions?

See above.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Why not a study showing the climatic impact of MASSIVE releases of CO2 during Volcanic eruptions?

See above.

Might they not agree with your notion?

In such a broad and diverse topic, one matter cannot conclude much on its own. The evidence is taken from the most strongest perspective and with the most likely, most accurate and backed up scenario. The matter is to be viewed in light of all evidence and factors in hand, as is known to ALL experts, thoroughly, and they have done so. You can prove the above or the inverse to me if you can.

QUOTE
..what you leave out is that ALL THE FOOD ON THE PLANET BEGINS WITH CO2 and that according to NASA the planets NET PRIMARY PRODUCTION is up 6% over the the last decade.

Now wait a minute. Whats this? Just because in a short post I didn't include EVERYTHING in regards a subject means what exactly?

Your right as I see it, in this bit, but any evidence for your NASA claim and the year for this evidence?

Maybe Henry Ford set off this roller coaster in 1908...

I'll get to the rest of your post, as time permits later.

Aside from that, do you support the notion that the Earth is warming up, "naturally", as part of the climate cycle, and this is contributing "mostly" to the present increase in temperatures and CO2 = hence GW?
adoucette
Markinosis,

Everything I mentioned I've discussed on this board (with links, pictures etc).

You might want to read this thread:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=5407&st=0#

one of many in the Space Forum on Global Warming.

But I no longer have the time nor the inclination to try to educate those who appear convinced they are right.



Do I believe the globe is warming?

I think the globe is VERY SLOWLY warming at ~ 1 d F over the last Century.

I think that most of this warming was in the Northern Hemisphere, in the Winter.

I think that man contributed to some of this, but how and how much remains unclear.

I think that CH4, CFCs, HFCs, SOx, NOx and Soot are ALL pollutants and GHGs that we should attempt to reduce as NONE of these have any redeeming value.

I think that CO2 is the basis for ALL FOOD for EVERY PLANT AND ANIMAL on the planet and to treat it as a pollutant is a serious mistake.

Arthur
Markinosis
Thanks for that Arthur.

I was about to post before, but now that you posted the link, I'll have a thorough read of it before attempting to.

The people you are saying think they are right, are the vast overwhelming "majority" of experts, teachers, and knowledgeable in Climatology etc, in this world. I hope you realize that.

Seriously, why do you think they don't realize what you do?
I mean, in a 1000 professors, +80% are supporting GW, thus the near enough EVERY DAY effort/reports in seriousness they are making, putting everything they have on the line, along with going against their own governments.

Do you also realize, that your talking CONSPIRACY tones, like those who doubt NIST report and the official storyline for 9/11?
Theres always something you favour in such abstract notions such as these, over another, and thus conclude with more of a focus on ONE or a few particular aspects (like CO2 here), based one experience, knowledge, expertise, and so anyone can take a crack at the notions one doesn't pay much value to statistically occurring, and come with a little counter argument. In reality, the counter arguments don't stand against peer reviewed, or universally accepted expert views.

Science is always carried out by assumption, inclining, and foresight to predict based on "relevant" evidence and thus take measures to not leave it all till its too late, in apathy, in all ways. For you to say that "judgment" of theres shouldn't be on, so to fore plan, is negating most of other scientific theories, which actually contain NO evidence as of yet, have been taken as pure postulates for over 30-60years, yet continue to be taught as truth, followed fro all research and purposes and basically the rest of scientific method, is again all in connection with "prediction" based on facts etc, which you are here undermining, indirectly.

I can understand that you "think" they all maybe seriously wrong. But I can't understand why you wouldn't even make a little attempt towards following their proposals, thus you can see the consequences, for even a brief period (testing) and have clear rather than no proof to debunk their theories.
The ONLY ones who are seriously in opposition to it, are the ones concerned more about economy than anything, who seem to have their belief on this preplanned, regardless of what report is released on a daily bases in the future.
They probably remember, 1973 and OPEC- and KNOW that the product MOST affecting and endangering to the US economy by far is OIL.

Here, have a read of this meanwhile:

User posted image

"The diagram, which shows a sharp upturn in temperatures in recent decades, has been a prime target for groups who doubt humans are warming the planet.
These sceptics had challenged the way the hockey stick data was assembled.
"

"The new report, carried out by a panel of the US-based National Research Council (NRC), largely vindicates the researchers' work, first published in 1998."

"Professor Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, UK, and a collaborator with Professor Mann, disagreed with this conclusion, but told the BBC News: "I am mostly happy with the report, but there wasn't much need for it amongst palaeoclimatologists. The vast majority believe we are at our warmest temperature levels for at least 1,000 years."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5109188.stm

"A scientific report commissioned by the US government has concluded there is "clear evidence" of climate change caused by human activities.

The report, from the federal Climate Change Science Program, said trends seen over the last 50 years "cannot be explained by natural processes alone"


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4969772.stm

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

However, one aspect we agree on:

"I think that CH4, CFCs, HFCs, SOx, NOx and Soot are ALL pollutants and GHGs that we should attempt to reduce as NONE of these have any redeeming value."

QUOTE (Arthur+)
I think that CO2 is the basis for ALL FOOD for EVERY PLANT AND ANIMAL on the planet and to treat it as a pollutant is a serious mistake.


QUESTION: So what "detrimental" effects to this planet, its life, do you see occurring IF we were to follow the proposals of world professors on the cause of GW being CO2 mainly, and thus reduce it drastically?
adoucette
QUOTE (Markinosis+)
QUESTION: So what "detrimental" effects to this planet, its life, do you see occurring IF we were to follow the proposals of world professors on the cause of GW being CO2 mainly, and thus reduce it drastically?


Depends on how you propose to reduce it.

The IPCC already ADMITS that the Kyoto protocol will have almost NO EFFECT.

So what's your magic plan?

Oh, and if CO2 is THAT HARMFUL what's the logic of leaving China, India, Russia, Mexico, Brazil etc out of the plan? Isn't that like saying that even though the boat is sinking they don't have to bail since they don't as good seats?

Oh, and how do you reconcile these two:

User posted image

and

User posted image

and if you think that:

The new report, carried out by a panel of the US-based National Research Council (NRC), largely vindicates the researchers' work, first published in 1998."

How do you explain that:

"Professor Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, UK, and a collaborator with Professor Mann, disagreed with this conclusion

He disagreed with the conclusion because he and Mann were PUBLICLY SPANKED.

And no, there is no conspiracy, just a lot of scientists jumping on the GW gravy train, and its a MASSIVE gravy train, which got its start at the Hadley Center and foisted on us by the likes of Sir John Houghton (GW is a SIN). The fact that Marg. Thatcher originally dreampt up Global Warming probably escaped your notice.

The fact that it is a UN based ECONOMIC policy probably escapes you as well.

Arthur
Zarkov
>> since the Industrial age >>

coincides with oil pollution from coal, etc

>> "the scientific consensus identifies greenhouse gases as the primary cause of the recent warming." >>

no global warming as such
A global widening of the air temperature range is being seen.
and a drying in the Southern Hemisphere and into the Northern H to some degree.... It will be slowly then more rapidly in the North

We must be seeing an increase in sea surface temperatures... this is where the heat is stored.... maybe much to our detriment in the future

Wind speeds must also be increased

all leading to an oily problem, IMO

Now oil is more than a hot potato, it is bound directly into "economic survival"
When this is the choice between
economic survival versus physical survival..... one is certain while the other is ??? but its implications are unfathomable

Of course economic survival can not continue if we physically become extinct.

Do you really think you are told everything you should know ?
Markinosis
If you really[/b[ want to understand or learn, then one should read, throughly, though it'll be quite lengthy.

-----
First of, diverging but still science:

[b]Scientific Integrity at UCS, Govt interference with FDA, voiced by 100's of FDA scientists:

http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity...ist-survey.html
-----

Global warming is well known and established.

Latest findings like expected, in support (September 2006):

Carbon dioxide levels are substantially higher now than at any time in the last 800,000 years, the latest study of ice drilled out of Antarctica confirms.

The in-depth analysis of air bubbles trapped in a 3.2km-long core of frozen snow shows current greenhouse gas concentrations are unprecedented.

The East Antarctic core is the longest, deepest ice column yet extracted.

Project scientists say its contents indicate humans could be bringing about dangerous climate changes.

"My point would be that there's nothing in the ice core that gives us any cause for comfort," said Dr Eric Wolff from the British Antarctic Survey (BAS).

"There's nothing that suggests that the Earth will take care of the increase in carbon dioxide. The ice core suggests that the increase in carbon dioxide will definitely give us a climate change that will be dangerous," he told BBC News.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5314592.stm

Climate change will reach point of no return in 20 years, says expert:
http://article.wn.com/link/WNAT88dda2d3323...playarticle.txt

The points mentioned, as always are very clear there.

I'm still reading through the links and info of the previous link, nevertheless its the same negators and usual apathetic conspiracy arguments so far. The MAJOR-MOST issue of significance are ignored by doubters and the minutia are always enlarged, planet-size. The rest will be dealt with, and some already has. Daily the evidence only points to one aspect. Since its a very large topic, I will run through the basics happening around us and on GW, point by point, with ONLY a few aspects, more than brief but not extensive to say the least. See how its all inter-related and inter-dependent, so the claims of others are also explained by GW proposals and findings.

For those pursuing this line of thought, here are three initial simple in-depth rebuttal:

"Since it is the Sun's energy that drives the weather system, scientists naturally wondered whether they might connect climate changes with solar variations. Yet the Sun seemed to be stable over the timescale of human lifetimes. Attempts to discover cyclic variations in weather and connect them with the 11-year sunspot cycle, or other possible solar cycles ranging up to a few centuries long, gave results that were ambiguous at best. These attempts got a well-deserved bad reputation"
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/solar.htm

Unsubstantiated Skeptics Refuted:
http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/index.p...racken-legates/

Further in-depth explanation of atmospheric-oceanic focus to immediate and centennial climate change rather than "solar" (little focusing on the Lorentz model & Chaos theory initially):
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archi...os-and-climate/

HC containing "natural" fuels i.e. oil, coal, natural gas all took millions of years to form. Its simply compressed carbon. Now, all this carbon from millions of years of accumulation is suddenly released because we decide to use fossil fuels for energy. Where does all the carbon go? You would think trees, but industrialization has deforested most of the world?

Of the present world, nearly everything depends on these minerals to work out.
The "main" mass-use has always been in the large scale industries i.e. in electricity generation.

Globalization, and global modernization is what is making "everyone" compete for these resources, as in the colonial past, other resources such as gold did.

Fossil fuels create the LARGEST source of CO2 emission in the Earths atmosphere, which increases radiative forcing and thus global warming: more heat is entrapped under the "blanket" and thus more of Earths water is "evaporated", to increase "water vapour" another greenhouse gas. Its ALL linked.

The ONLY alternative theories are a combination of "conjectures" by those disputing the globally researched, repeated and ACCEPTED facts and theories, such as Solar cycle variations due to magnetic variation, and "other" far stretched imaginative "calculated" proposals, usually ONLY by those with agendas and interests with/in the "political" circles; the chief "culprits" US Govt, mass industries and the global economy.

The Skeptics: http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/scien...anizations.html

User posted image

Annual carbon dioxide emission broken down into various fuel types during 1800-2000 AD. Shows the increasing rate at which fossil fuels are being consumed, since the Industrial Revolution.

Human Fingerprints
Earth's surface has undergone unprecedented warming over the last century, particularly over the last two decades. Astonishingly, every single year since 1992 is in the current list of the 20 warmest years on record.

user posted image

User posted image
Atmospheric carbon dioxide record data sources: Keeling and Whorf (2004),
Petit et al. (1999), IPCC (2001), Ahn et al. (2004).
Art credits: astronaut, pyramid: © photos.com; car, mammoth: © clipart.com.


user posted image

IN-depth analysis, and sources HERE

CO2 Global emission trends: http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/trends/emis/em_cont.htm

ENERGY LEFT:

Oil, coal, and gas stood for 79.6% of primary energy production during 2002 (in million tonnes of oil equivalent (mtoe)

Years of production left in the ground with the MOST OPTIMISTIC reserve estimates (Oil & Gas Journal, World Oil)

* Oil: 1,277,702/77/365= 32 years
* Gas: 1,239,000/47/365= 72 years
* Coal: 4,786,000/52/365= 252 years


Note that this calculation assumes that the product could be produced at a constant level for that number of years and that all of the reserves could be recovered. In reality, consumption of all three resources have been increasing. While this suggests that the resource will be used up more quickly, in reality, the production curve is much more akin to a bell curve. At some point in time, the production of each resource within an area, country, or globally will reach a maximum value, after which, the production will decline until it reaches a point where is no longer economically feasible or physically possible to produce.

Again, INDUSTRIES, and global "modernization" sparked and furthered by large expenditure economies of Western lifestyles and cultures, means, deforestation in mass amounts such as those in the Amazon Forest of South America. This again means, LESS CO2 is absorbed, MORE released. 6BILLION and quickly increasing humans, MORE than ever, also means, more CO2 released, and thus overall LIFE, biodiversity in the MOST diverse habitats of the world, climate and geography, BEING DESTROYED in MASSIVE amounts, to fulfill the needs of the extravagant and the minority (in the world) affluent.


Global Warming, its effects, related & their "SIDE EFFECTS"

Deforestation and Global Warming:

Deforestation alters the hydrologic cycle, potentially increasing or decreasing the amount of water in the soil and groundwater and the moisture in the atmosphere. Forests support considerable biodiversity. Forests are valuable habitat for wild mushrooms and medicinal conservation and the recharge of aquifers. With forest bioptopes a major, irreplaceable source of new drugs (like taxol) and genetic variations (such as crop resistance) is lost irretrievably.

When deforestation occurs, it initiates the processes & need to cause EXTINCTION and population shifts when HUGE areas of "natural" habitats, sustaining a millions of organisms and ecosystems are destroyed.

Decay and burning of wood, also releases CO2 into atmosphere, and the total losses are much larger; socially, culturally, geologically, biologically and globally, such as the loss of natural beauty, local preserved culture, & tourist attractions.

Amazon deforestation has/will/is causing cloud and evaporation cycles to change due to less clouds equaling more direct heat.

Short-sighted, market-driven forestry practices are often one of the leading cause of forest degradation, the principal human-related causes of deforestation are agriculture and livestock grazing, urban sprawl, and mining and petroleum extraction, i.e. multi-national fancyboy companies i.e. pulp extraction in Indonesia.

This is also how the present US was cleared of massive amounts of forestry for "urbanization."

Soil Erosion:

Soil erosion is also increased due to this, which also is a MAJOR cause of flooding and landslides by time.
Shrinking forest cover lessens the landscape's capacity to intercept, retain and transport precipitation. Instead of trapping precipitation, which then percolates to groundwater systems, deforested areas become sources of surface water runoff, which moves much faster than subsurface flows. That quicker transport of surface water can translate into flash flooding and more localized floods than would occur with the forest cover. Deforestation also contributes to decreased evapotranspiration, which lessens atmospheric moisture which in some cases affects precipitation levels downwind from the deforested area, as water is not recycled to downwind forests, but is lost in runoff and returns directly to the oceans.

Drought & Forest fires:

Global Warming has ed to an increase in the summer temperatures, progressively, increasing drought => which apart from killing humans, animals, and destroying trade & hence livelihoods and economies, such as in US agriculture last year, gives rise to forest/bush/wild fires, leading to EVEN more congregated loss, in life, habitats, plants and vegetation's, with MUCH CO2 released, and no life left in the same areas to absorb that same amount again, as well as releasing thermal energy, heating up water evaporation form waterways.

On average, wildfires burn 4.3 million acres (17,000 km²) in the US annually. In recent years the federal government has spent $1 billion a year on fire suppression. 2002 was a record year for fires with major fires in Arizona, California, Colorado, and Oregon. consuming up to 1,000 acres (4 km²) per hour.

2002 is proving to be one of the hottest years ever.
Courtesy USDA.

User posted image
After the 2003 wildfire at Glacier National Park

A particularly destructive fire burns away plants and trees that prevent erosion. If heavy rains occur after such a fire, landslides, ash flows, and flash floods can occur. This can result in property damage outside the immediate fire area, and can affect the water quality of streams, rivers and lakes.

As you know, forest fires, created by an erratic CLIMATE, generated by Global Warming, destroy ALL life in an area it engulfs: hence wild fire.

Increased, hectic weather, is creating DROUGHT all over the already impoverished world, such as in Iraq, China, Ethiopia, Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, and then heavy rain, thunderstorms, and increased flooding/landslides/tragedies in the winters, are increasing disease, death and every other calamity, such as in China and Bangladesh.

Weather and pollution:

... in majority reside in the troposphere, 8-13km.

Previously, it was thought that most particles in the stratosphere came from volcanoes or were generated by high-flying aircraft. Collection of air samples from the stratosphere in 2003 led to detection of carbon monoxide and other gasses related to combustion at a level 30 times higher than can be accounted for by commercial aircraft.

Satellite observation of smoke plumes from wildfires revealed that the plumes could be traced intact for distances exceeding 5,000 kilometers. This observation suggests that the plumes were in the stratosphere above weather conditions that would have brought the plume back to earth.

Atmospheric models suggest that these concentrations of sooty particles could increase absorption of incoming solar radiation during winter months by as much as 15% (Baumgardner, et al., 2003).

Hurricanes - Storms:

Global warming was a major factor in the record-breaking 2005 hurricane season, according to a paper in the June 2006 issue of Geophysical Research Letters.

Recent Studies: A Summary of Research papers dealing with the Storms-GW link:
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/articl...16&campaign=486

Max Mayfield, director of the U.S. National Hurricane Center, says there's plenty of potential for a storm worse than Hurricane Katrina which killed 1,339 people along the U.S. Gulf coast and caused some $80 billion in damage last August.

"People think we have seen the worst. We haven't," Mayfield told Reuters in an interview at the fortress-like hurricane center in Florida.

"I think the day is coming. I think eventually we're going to have a very powerful hurricane in a major metropolitan area worse than what we saw in Katrina and it's going to be a mega-disaster. With lots of lost lives," Mayfield said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060822/us_nm/..._nightmare_dc_2

Chinese storms leave 15 million homeless:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060825/ap_on_...s/china_typhoon

Aug 15 (Reuters) - Global warming is affecting the intensity of Atlantic hurricanes, according to a new study by a university professor in Florida who says his research provides the first direct link between climate change and storm strength:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinves...-HURRICANES.XML

Storms have been battering our coasts for millennia, but in recent decades they have become stronger and more destructive. Mounting scientific evidence has linked this trend to global warming.

Why? Hurricanes get their power from warm surface waters underlying the storm. Since sea temperatures have increased with global warming, more intense storms are brewing around the globe.

* 20% of hurricanes in the 1970s that reached Category 4 or 5. (Webster et al.)

* 33% of hurricanes in the 1990s and 2000s that reached Category 4 or 5. (Webster et al.)

* 325 ppm approximate level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in 1970. (Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, CDIAC)

* 380 ppm approximate level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere today. (CDIAC)

* 100% increase in intensity and duration of hurricanes and tropical storms since the 1970s. (Emanuel)

* 63% increase in hurricane intensity and duration linked to higher sea surface temperatures. (Emanuel)

* 2005: Year with the most intense Atlantic-basin storm ever recorded: Hurricane Wilma. A Category 5 hurricane before it made landfall, Wilma ripped across the Yucatan Peninsula as a Category 4, then hit the Florida peninsula as a Category 2 and crossed the state in less than 5 hours.

* 2005: Year with most hurricanes in the Atlantic on record.

* 2006: Year with one of the strongest tropical cyclones to ever hit the South Pacific. Cyclone Monica made landfall in Queensland, Australia on April 19.

* 2004: Year with the first hurricane ever recorded in the South Atlantic. On March 26, Hurricane Catarina made landfall 500 miles south of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. (NASA)

* $100 billion: Estimate of damage caused by hurricanes hitting the U.S. coasts in 2005 alone. (National Climatic Data Center)

Sources:
Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC), cdiac.ornl.gov/ftp/trends/co2/maunaloa.co2.
Emanuel, K. 2005. Increasing destructiveness of tropical cyclones over the past 30 years. Nature 436: 686-688.
NASA's Earth Observatory. earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16505
Webster, PJ, GJ Holland, JA Curry & H-R Chang. 2005. Changes in tropical cyclone number, duration, and intensity in a warming environment. Science 309: 1844-1846.

==> continued in next post (over the max image)
mergatroid
Scientists Map Canyon Below the Atlantic: http://www.physorg.com/news76601354.html

These were the days when there were no oceans of water above the Hudson Canyon. Glacial runoff water once put deep cuts into the earthen ground almost four thousand feet below the waters of the present day Atlantic Ocean. ohmy.gif I am amazed realizing such a drastic change to the earth only tens, hundreds of thousands of years ago. There were many glaciers though so maybe these mapped canyons were carved millions of years ago. But those glaciers sure did suck up alot of water. I mean, the Pacific Ocean basin was devoid of water then too ...? Wow.

Again ...Yikes! Does Al Gore et al. know about this? Someone get him on the phone for me please ... blink.gif
Markinosis
Mergatroid, yes obviously these findings, like all, do make a huge difference by time.
Hopefully, they will clear out many dubious single etched twigs that CTs hang on to, throwing mud into clear waters.

Continuation...

-------------

Heres some information collected over time from 2001 which'll contain much information for those not aware or misunderstanding GW and climate, & how to accurately & validly use each procedure and finding.

IPCC 2001 and Early warning signs:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/scien...al-warming.html

Past, Present, and Future Temperatures: Proxies AND Hockey Stick explained and doubts rectified:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/scien...eystickFAQ.html

MAIN countries, EACHs share of CO2 emissions:


User posted image


Voracious US: At $60 per barrel, we’re sending $500,000 out of the country every single minute just to buy petroleum
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_...-questions.html

Since the first IPCC report in 1991, planetary conditions have given little support to those who doubt global warming. According to Kevin Trenberth, head of the Climate Data Analysis Section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, the 1990s were the hottest decade in at least 1,000 years.

Amid rising concern from citizens around the world, the Bush Administration renounced Kyoto -- even as the Environmental Protection Agency admitted that much of the ongoing global toast-up can indeed be blamed on human activities, especially burning fossil fuels.

Pres. Bush blamed "the bureaucracy" for his Administration's report.

But consider the following:

*Average air temperatures have increased 1.2 degrees F over the past century. The IPCC says about 0.8 degrees of that is likely due to human activities.

*The hottest 10 years in the last century have all occurred since 1980.

*1998 was the hottest year on record, and 2001 was the second-hottest.

*January-March, 2002, was the hottest such period on record.

*Glaciers are retreating in many locations around the world.

*Ditto for permafrost in Alaska (severe warming at high latitudes was one of the first regional forecast of climate models).

*Sea level continues to rise due to the expansion of warming ocean water and the melting of glaciers.

*Certainly, there was found no support for Patrick Michaels, a climatologist and prominent skeptic of global warming. He and others have highlighted supposed errors and inconsistencies in climate data. How, for example, can you be certain about the historic temperatures that were often recorded on urban thermometers? Cities, after all, are warmed by energy released from vehicles, industry and buildings, and this "urban heat island" effect exaggerates temperatures.
Thus any warming recorded in cities says nothing about the globe as a whole.

Not so, says Stephen Schneider, a professor of geosciences at Stanford University and an early voice in the warming debate. "If you eliminate large cities or correct for them, it does not change the answer more than 10%. The urban heat island has been completely and thoroughly put to bed, it's been analyzed and reanalyzed."

In 1992, Michaels wrote that the gloomy predictions of global havoc are "wrong. The most internally consistent case that can be generated from billions and billions of bits of climatic data simply do not support that vision... The likelihood that we are creating a better world far outweighs the probability of climate apocalypse"

User posted image
Red: increases; blue: decreases; green: little or no change.
Trends were calculated only for areas where average temp changed significantly during 66 of the 100 years. Courtesy IPCC, Technical Summary , Working Group I, 2001, p. 27 27_annual temperature.

Greenhouse gases cause the greenhouse effect by trapping heat in the atmosphere, much as glass traps heat in a greenhouse. Nobody disputes that the natural greenhouse effect warms surface air temperatures by a hefty 33 degrees C, allowing life to survive. The debate concerns the extra warming caused by human actions (including the release of greenhouse gases, primarily carbon dioxide, and big changes on Earth's surface).

User posted image

The Bush Administration says the United States can't afford to limit greenhouse gases. Perhaps they haven't noticed how rich the country is...
Data courtesy World Bank, April 2002

Because most economic activities cause the release of greenhouse gases, reducing emissions would be expensive.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the United Nations group set up to study the issue, predicts that by 2100, temps will rise by 1.4 C to a staggering 5.8 degrees C. Although that would almost represent a return to dinosaur temperatures, carbon dioxide levels and global warming might well continue rising past that point.

Already diseased, impoverished, malnutritioned and on the verge of starvation and death- countries of the world; MANY more than one are being affected badly.

Temperatures over the past decade have given no solace to the once-vocal skeptics of global warming. Indeed, warming has accelerated rapidly since 1990. Kevin Trenberth, a climatologist who helped write the 2001 IPCC report, says, "It certainly has continued to warm. 1998 was the warmest year on record, and 2001 was the second-warmest. The 1990s were the warmest decade in the last 1,000 years."

User posted image
No matter how you cut it, temps are expected to rise fast. Economic and technological choices affect the outcome: A1B and similar gibberish refer to different scenarios for the pace and type of future economic and technological development. Greener living can produce a cooler planet. SRES = IPCC Special Report on Emissions Scenarios. "IS92" methods used an older estimate of total greenhouse emissions.
Courtesy IPCC, p. 70.

Overall, the warming has amounted to 1.2 degrees F over the past century. The IPCC says that's mainly due to human activity.

The predictions are even more ominous; according to the IPCC, surface temperatures in 2100 will be 1.4 to 5.8 degrees C warmer than 1990.

The predictions of a decade ago were alarming enough, but these are significantly hotter. But why trust a climate prediction for 50 or 100 years down the line when meteorologists can't even predict the weather half the time...?

I like these, just look at what they keep showing (let alone what we've been ALLOWED to "pollute" the world for over 100 years, to create modern global problems apart form the "invasions" and mass-chaos we live off).

User posted image
Who's the gassiest? America, that's who! *FSU = Former Soviet Union.
Courtesy EPA.

As new factors arise, they are entered into the climate equation, as you can see from the case of the airborne aerosols. "At the beginning of the 1990s, the forecasts were right on track," says Schneider, with almost constant warming.

Then, in 1992, a sudden cooling started. Climatologists soon realized that Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines, in the largest eruption of the 20th century, had spewed a gazillion tons of aerosols into the atmosphere.
These tiny particles reflected sunlight back to space, reducing heat input to the planet and temporarily slackening the greenhouse effect When the early global warming models, which did not account for cooling caused by aerosols (which are also produced by burning coal and oil), were changed, the new models have forecast average temperatures "right on the nose," says Schneider.

A major prediction about global warming concerned the ocean, not the atmosphere: Melting glaciers and warming water would raise sea levels, threatening coastlines that are home to huge numbers of people.

As of 2002, measurements show that sea level has risen about 15 centimeters over the past century.

Climatologist Kevin Trenberth notes that while predictions for sea level have changed over the years, rising seas remain "a major problem on long-time scales.... Even if you stabilize temperature and greenhouse gases, sea level will continue to rise."

Low-lying atolls in the Pacific and Indian Oceans are already threatened. The first environmental refugees of the greenhouse century could come from a place like the Carteret (or Tulun) islands of Papua New Guinea.

The island's 1,400 residents say the rising sea has polluted their gardens with salt water, and they may starve even before the sea inundates their homes. The residents have applied for relocation money, but the government says it lacks the cash.

User posted image
Rising seas also endanger the Pacific nation of Tuvalu, which may sue the developed world that creates most greenhouse gas pollution. The David-and-Goliath lawsuit would be hard to win, but it could raise the profile of island flooding.

Even small sea rises could have enormous effects, Trenberth points out, since a storm surge at high tide can produce severe damage. The 1998 El Nino in California, he says, cause "a tremendous amount of erosion, houses toppling into ocean. It was a real indicator of the type of thing you would expect to see with rising sea level."

In general, Trenberth says, sea level rise "is not a gradual process. It's not that you wait and gradually the sea trickles up and covers your toes. ... it happens in episodic fashion, for the most part you may be fine, but in a tropical storm, a whole island can be inundated. ...Some of these nations could disappear overnight."

Because so much water is stored in Antarctica, concern over rising sea levels inevitably causes a glance to the south, and the news has been ominous. March 2001, a section of ice as big as Rhode Island broke away and disintegrated, stunning glaciologists.

User posted image
Estimates for sea-level rise show the effects of various scenarios for economic and technological development. Courtesy IPCC Climate Change 2001, Technical Summary, Working Group I, 2001, p. 74.

A big melting in Antarctica could cause a huge rise in sea level, but since other parts of the continent are cooling, the overall message is confusing.

Evidence from Greenland suggests, ~10% of Earth's fresh water is locked in a giant icecap there. 2002 June, NASA scientists reported that the icecap is rapidly melting.
Because ice conducts little heat, experts had expected the icecap to respond slowly to warming. But meltwater from the surface is seeping through cracks and lubricating the rock below.

"Previous models suggested that it might take hundreds, even thousands of years for changes in an ice sheet's surface to be felt at the base," NASA glaciologist H. Jay Zwally told the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. "This shows that summer melting can accelerate the ice flow in a matter of weeks"

Source: Glacial Melt in Greenland Causes Alarm, Mike Toner, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, June 7, 2002, p. 3a.

Is it actually global warming?

Climatology is a physical science, like chemistry and physics, and physical scientists like to test hypotheses by performing enough experiments to get a valid result.

In climatology, such a hypothesis might say, "Given the current rate of increase in greenhouse gases, what global average temperature can we expect in 50 years?"

An even better understanding might come from a controlled experiment: "Let's hold other greenhouse gases constant but double carbon dioxide, to see how carbon dioxide influences warming by itself."

These are great experiments, but you simply can't do them as you would do, say, an experiment in particle physics.

If you think of climate predictions as hypotheses, the only way to test them is to watch climate behave through the years.

"If you want to wait 100 years, I can tell you for sure" whether global warming is a fact, says Jonathan Foley, an environmental scientist at University of Wisconsin-Madison. "But by the time we have perfect evidence, global warming will be so severe that it will be impossible to undo."

One way to understand the human effect on climate, says global warming expert Stephen Schneider, is to compare it to loaded dice. Although you never can predict the next roll, loading the dice skews the odds in favor of a certain number.
And loading the climate dice is exactly what we are doing as we pump billions of tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere each year, Schneider says.
Because it's impossible to do the experiments, it's impossible to know if the torrid pace of warming in recent years really signifies rapid warming. "Twenty years is not a long time," says Schneider, "and we don't have a pair of climate dice to roll 1,000 times to figure out if this is an accident."


==> Continued (over max pics)
Markinosis
Continuation...

User posted image
A comparison of annual, average thermometer readings (red line) to four computer models of climate (black lines). The two lines are similar until 1960 or so. "Anomalies" are differences from baseline, 1880 to 1920. Charts from IPCC Climate Change 2001, Technical Summary, Working Group I, 2001.
Source: p. 58.

Schneider, is convinced that human actions are the best explanation for the current heat-up. "I'd argue that global warming at the surface is a virtual fact. At a very high probability, way above 90 percent."

Still, he's willing to admit that he could be wrong. "Most people in climate science would argue that we are loading the dice, but to know for sure, you would have to run the experiment."

Climatologists have tried to sidestep the "no-experiment" limitation by running climate models on big computers. While the models predict much of the warming that's occurred in the atmosphere, they suffer from the garbage-in, garbage-out problem.

Bad data will produce errors (and don't forget that acquiring data is a big problem in climate studies).

And no matter how much models are refined, it's not possible, even in theory, to include every relevant factor. Sure, aerosols were factored in after Mt. Pinatubo, but how, for example, would we get data on these critical scientific, political and economic questions:

Will warming trigger a quick change in ocean circulation, drastically altering regional climate? If so, when?
Will warming trigger a geologic change releasing enormous amounts of the potent greenhouse gas methane? When?
What will greenhouse gas emissions be in a century?
If rising sea levels push millions of people from their homes, where will they go, and how will that affect future warming trends?

At some point, Foley argues, the discussion must move from the scientific realm, with its excruciating standards of proof, to the political realm, where "Regular folks who need a decision now can look at what's a reasonable degree of evidence."

HUMAN EFFECTS (little more):

User posted image
Once you add in the human effects on global warming, predictions match measurements. The drop in 1992 was caused by reflective particles from Mount Pinatubo.
Courtesy IPCC, p. 58.

While climatologists argue the fine points, he asks, "Where is there a reasonable doubt about global warming? Every piece of evidence says the world is getting warmer and CO2 is rising. Every law of physics says that increasing CO2 will trap heat. We don't have 100 percent statistical proof, but we've got a smoking gun, a motive and a body. What else does a regular person need to make a decision?"

In law and medicine, decisions are routinely made without perfect evidence, Foley continues. "Scientists have the luxury of living in an ivory tower, of not making decisions. We have to stay honest to the science, but we also need to recognize that regular people need to move forward without perfect data."


Some major steps to improve:

A market is slowly forming in the "right" to emit carbon dioxide. Modeled on the "cap-and-trade" arrangement that has reduced utility sulfur emissions and acid rain, the new market has already logged 65 trades for at least 1,000 metric tons of carbon, says Judy Greenwald, director of innovative solutions at the Pew Center on Global Climate Change.

Pollution markets work like this: If I can find a way to cheaply reduce emissions at my power plant, I can sell that reduction to your plant, which can't find cheap reductions. Ideally, such markets will find the cheapest reductions, but they require careful monitoring to ensure that the reductions are not, in the Enron "energy market" tradition, simply flim-flam.

Most of the first carbon dioxide trades are called "verified emissions reductions." Under these, the selling company reduces its emissions, and sells the reduction to another company that wants, for one reason or another, to reduce emissions.

A second and more promising form of trade helps comply with upcoming requirements to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, says Greenwald. The United Kingdom and Denmark have both capped emissions, forcing companies that must exceed the caps to buy reductions from other companies.

User posted image
Talk about global-warming machines! Aghast at a row of gas-guzzling SUVs (OK, one's a van, but you get the picture).

Emissions caps are included in the Kyoto Protocol on climate change, accepted by many countries but rejected by the U.S. Ironically, she notes, "It was the U.S. that proposed the 'cap and trade' regime [at the Kyoto negotiations] in the first place."

The Kyoto targets will start taking effect in 2008, she says, at which point emissions trading could be a major factor in controlling carbon dioxide.

Ethanol as the "alternative" FUEL
Ethanol as the "alternative" FUEL

User posted image
The National Science Foundation supported extremophile sampling at Loihi, a submarine volcano near Hawaii, in 1999. Microbial mats, including a newly seen jelly-like organism surrounding the 160?C vents, were collected for study; such samples might contain a bacterium that quickly eats carbon dioxide.
Courtesy NOAA.

Its a REPETITIVE, INTER-DEPENDANT CYCLE- with One aspect DIRECTLY affecting another, and INDIRECTLY affecting MANY more - Adversely.

---------------

Things that increase temperature, such as increases in heat-trapping emissions from cars and power plants or an increase in the amount of radiation the sun emits, are examples of "positive" forcings or drivers. Volcanic events and some types of human-made pollution, both of which inject sunlight-reflecting aerosols into the atmosphere, lower temperature and are examples of "negative" forcings or drivers. Natural climate drivers include the sun's energy output, aerosols from volcanic activity, and changes in snow and ice cover. Human climate drivers include heat-trapping emissions from cars and power plants, aerosols from pollution, and soot particles.

Much as the Air Force develops computer programs to simulate aircraft flight under different conditions, climate scientists develop computer programs to simulate global climate changes under different conditions. These programs use our knowledge of physical, chemical, and biological processes that occur within Earth's atmosphere and oceans and on its land surfaces. Mathematical models allow scientists to simulate the behavior of complex systems such as climate and explore how these systems respond to natural and human factors.

Thus Global Warming it is, as repeatedly supported, shown and believed, as well as to be wisest and safest.

Thats the explanation of all major points. smile.gif

Apologise for any mistakes not noticed.
adoucette
laugh.gif

You quote Trenbreth and Schneider?

You have GOT to be kidding me.

Where were you in the mid 70s when Schneider was predicting the COMING ICE AGE?

THE SKY IS FALLLLLLLLLLLLLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.....

OH MY!

RUN FOR IT.

Arthur
adoucette
Do a little research on Dr Trenbreth and find out why Chris Landsea resigned from the IPCC.

As to hurricanes:

5 Is Global Warming Responsible for the Large Upswing in 2004-2005 US Hurricane Landfalls?

5.1 Background


The U.S. landfall of major hurricanes Dennis, Katrina, Rita and Wilma in 2005 and the four Florida landfalling hurricanes of 2004 (Charley, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne) has raised questions about the possible role that global warming may be playing in these last two unusually destructive seasons.



The global warming arguments have been given much attention by many media references to recent papers claiming to show such a linkage. Despite the global warming of the sea surface of about 0.4°C that has taken place over the last two decades, global numbers of hurricanes and their intensity have not shown increases over the past twenty years (Klotzbach 2006). In addition, we have no valid physical theory as to why small changes of global average sea surface temperature (SST) should bring about increases in Atlantic basin hurricane activity. In the past century, Atlantic basin hurricane activity has been above-average both when global SST has been increasing (from the middle 1920s through the middle 1940s) and when global SST has been decreasing (from the middle 1940s through the middle 1960s).



The Atlantic has seen a very large increase in major hurricanes during the last 11-year period of 1995-2005 (average 4.0 per year) in comparison to the prior 25-year period of 1970-1994 (average 1.5 per year). This large increase in Atlantic major hurricanes is primarily a result of a multi-decadal increase in strength in the Atlantic Ocean thermohaline circulation (THC) which is not directly related to global temperature increase. Changes in ocean salinity are believed to be the driving mechanism. These multi-decadal changes have also been termed the Atlantic Multi-Decadal Oscillation (AMO). It should also be noted that during this same time period, activity in the Northeast Pacific basin has decreased considerably. When activity in these two basins (the North Atlantic and the Northeast Pacific) is summed together, there has been virtually no trend in major hurricanes.



There have been similar past periods (1940s-1950s) when the Atlantic was just as active as in recent years. For instance, when we compare Atlantic basin hurricane numbers of the last 15 years with an earlier 15-year period (1950-1964), we see little difference in hurricane frequency or intensity even though global surface temperatures were cooler and there was a general global cooling during 1950-1964 as compared with global warming during 1990-2004.


5.2 Discussion


There is no physical basis for assuming that global hurricane intensity or frequency is necessarily related to global mean surface temperature changes of less than ± 0.5oC. As the ocean surface warms, global upper air temperatures warm as well to maintain conditionally unstable lapse-rates and global rainfall rates at their climatological values. Seasonal and monthly variations of sea surface temperature (SST) within individual storm basins show only very low correlations with monthly, seasonal, and yearly variations of hurricane activity (Shapiro and Goldenberg 1998, Klotzbach 2006). Other factors such as tropospheric vertical wind shear, surface pressure, low level vorticity, mid-level moisture, etc. play more dominant roles in explaining hurricane variability than do surface temperatures. Although there has been a general global warming over the last 30 years and particularly over the last 10 years, the SST increases in the individual tropical cyclone basins have been smaller than the overall global warming (about half) and, according to the observations, have not brought about any significant increases in global major tropical cyclones except for the Atlantic which, as has been discussed, has multi-decadal oscillations driven primarily by changes in Atlantic salinity. No credible observational evidence is currently available that directly associates global surface temperature change with changes in global or Atlantic hurricane frequency and intensity.


http://hurricane.atmos.colostate.edu/Forecasts/2006/sep2006/

Arthur
Zarkov
LOL

yes it is all so impressive but all conjecture, and too far off the mark to be of any use other than a smokescreen
All the points are but incidentials

You guys ain't seen nothing yet.
Markinosis
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 7 2006, 04:14 AM)
THE SKY IS FALLLLLLLLLLLLLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.....

OH MY!

RUN FOR IT.

Arthur

Yeah run for the clouds.

I bet you'd have said that day before 9/11, in fact the hour even as it happened if you didn't know it through the tele with your own eyes.. BUT it HAPPENED!

So tell me, honestly, did you read all I wrote or quoted?

You know very well that no matter who I quote (all guys everywhere) apart from a few "discredited", "unsupported" and repeatedly "refuted" minority conspiracy theorists, you'd get the same answers.

I DO know of Schneider, but no where near accurate, so can you provide proof? And how does that effect him now, Foley and the others?

Also the evidence was very little for all that, not so for this, an idea long in the buildup, with too much evidence collected for it as we all know.

Here, add this to your knowledge and oppositions:

Thawing Siberian bogs are releasing more of the greenhouse gas methane than previously believed, according to new scientific research.

Scientists from Russia and the US measured methane bubbling from a number of thawing lakes.

Writing in the journal Nature, they suggest the methane release is hastened by warmer temperatures, positively feeding back into global warming.


Methane's contribution to present-day global warming is second only to CO2.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimates that atmospheric concentrations are about two and a half times those seen in pre-industrial times.

Methane flux from thaw lakes in our study region may be five times greater than previously estimated Katey Walker and colleagues
"Thaw lakes in north Siberia are known to emit methane, but the magnitude of these emissions remains uncertain," the scientists write.

"We show that methane flux from thaw lakes in our study region may be five times greater than previously estimated."

The lakes are produced in summers when land which is usually permanently frozen - permafrost - melts.

Bubble traps

The study depended on the systematic deployment of bubble traps on two lakes in the Cherskii region of Siberia, supplemented by ground-based and aerial observations of a further 95 lakes.

Katey Walker from the University of Alaska at Fairbanks and her colleagues calculate that across the region, thaw lakes lakes emit 3.8 teragrams (Tg, million million grams) per year.

The contribution of these lakes is small compared to the IPCC estimate of total global methane production, 600 Tg per year.

More than half of this total comes from human activities, notably farming.

The importance of the Siberian release may lie in the relationship between warming and methane production.

If a high release rate of a greenhouse gas is being triggered by rising temperatures, that will in turn stimulate still higher temperatures - a positive feedback mechanism.

Extra context comes from the age of the emerging gas. Using radiocarbon techniques, the researchers showed that some of the escaping methane molecules had been formed more than 40,000 years ago.

The area of the planet covered by permafrost is projected to shrink as the surface warms.

Boreholes in permafrost in Svalbard, Norway, indicate that ground temperatures rose 0.4C over the past decade, four times faster than they did in the previous century."[/i]

User posted image

SOURCE

IPCC concluded, (report I presented before) yup humans - CO2 and GW:

"But assuming the key points remain, the broad international expert consensus embodied in the IPCC will make it harder for the US administration to say that climate change is a problem for the future which can be solved by technological advances."

"The doubling of CO2 from pre-industrial stable levels (270 parts per million) is expected to happen around the middle of the century.

Extreme weather events indicate man-made change, the IPCC says

What really worries the scientists is that we are already seeing major disruptions despite having increased CO2 by just 30%. "

Simultaneous changes in sea ice, glaciers, droughts, floods, ecosystems, ocean acidification and wildlife migration are taking place."


The future of the Kyoto Protocol on climate change is largely in the hands of the world's biggest contributors to greenhouse gas emissions.

User posted image

Oh guess who released the most for centuries now, building up its wealth?

Zarkov, yeah PRE and POST Industrial Revolution pointed to again.

Face it - your not an expert in this, neither am I, so we're "supposed" to leave it up to them, thats why they are there for: i.e. they know much BETTER than us. Let alone, there being a global consensus among all experts.

----------
But I realize belief for belief.
A belief is not merely an idea the mind possesses; it is an idea that possesses the mind.

There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking.

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

But your probably believe the following...

Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.

Mi rezponsa:

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

An idealist believes the short run doesn't count. A cynic believes the long run doesn't matter. A realist believes that what is done or left undone in the short run determines the long run.

Never acrimonious, but the sky is obviously falling somewhere not over here LOL
adoucette
I read it all, and I pointed you to where almost all of this has been previously discussed.

You ignored all of that (and just started spewing the same IPCC nonsense), so untill you catch up I'm ignoring your posts.


Oh, and if you think the issue is that big WHY LEAVE CHINA, INDIA, MEXICO, BRAZIL and RUSSIA OUT OF KYOTO?

laugh.gif

Arthur
Chromodynamix
No one can really claim to be a climate experts.

"There are things we know, and things we don't know, there are unknowable....etc"

The amount of CO2 being released from permafrost melting probably outweighs what we are doing industrially, and Methane output in Siberia and other places may be five times what was previously thought. Methane has 23 times the GWP of CO2.
Global warming may be leading these increases, not the other way round.
I just don't think we have anything like enough information to give a definitive answer, let alone a solution to climate change. Ultimately we will adapt like any other species, but we have a technological edge.
rpenner
QUOTE (Chromodynamix+Sep 7 2006, 04:02 PM)
Global warming may be leading these increases, not the other way round.
I just don't think we have anything like enough information to give a definitive answer, let alone a solution to climate change. Ultimately we will adapt like any other species, but we have a technological edge.
Guest_james
How dare you contradict George Bush? If he says there's no global warming then there isn't, and to suggest otherwise just gives aid and comfort to the enemy. It is unpatriotic to suggest we should stop buying and burning as much oil as possible. You're right about one thing, though--humanity's time is nearing an end, not because of your wacko theories, but because Jesus is going to come down soon to save the righteous and punish the wicked, which includes all you evil people that read books and don't own rifles. In that awful Al Gore movie he shows a picture of earth as a blue dot in the vast cosmos. That is an insulting way to show God's creation. If you're a true Patriotic Christian American Republican (the only life form Jesus cares about) you'll stop reading this filth, go pick up your gun, go out and kill something, kiss your Bible (but be careful not to read it!), put a flag on your SUV (make sure your flag says MADE IN CHINA--we want to only support those businesses that don't cave to those commie labor unions! Besides if they were made in the USA they'd have to pay taxes to help fund schools, which we all know are hotbeds of left-wing propaganda) and drive to the local book-burning, which I hope will put a big fat hole in your precious ozone.
Markinosis
Guest_james

laugh.gif

Spot on mate.

You know what.. I loved this bit, really.

QUOTE
On the morning of September 11, 2001, I was working at my home office. After being informed of the first terrorist attack on the Trade Center towers I turned on the television and watched the horror unfold. I was shocked at the unimaginable destruction, and overwhelming loss of life. It was a tragedy beyond belief.

As I watched that morning, I noticed a series of eerie faces in the billowing smoke. These images appeared to morph in the seemingly never-ending pillars of ugly black smoke. I made a mental note of these surreal apparitions, and I mentioned it to my wife. I did not discuss these sightings again. After all, I tend to see images in clouds. However the images I see in clouds are always pleasant images, usually animals.

In assembling the archives for this site, I viewed thousands of images and newspaper covers. Again, I noticed the eerie faces in the still images of the smoke of the burning towers. They seemed to be present in not just one, but several of the burning tower images. Further research provided additional information and seemed to confirm what I was seeing.

I was not alone in noticing these awful faces.

Mark D. Phillips, a professional AP photographer in New York, captured an incredibly real image of an evil, devil-like face that is distinguishable on the side of the tower's exterior structure. The authenticity of this image has caused a bit of a stir. Our research has concluded that his image is original and not doctored.


The Associated Press and Mark Phillips have unequivocally denied any tampering or enhancement of the image. In fact, neither AP or Phillips were aware of what the photograph appeared to reveal until the image was noticed by readers of US newspapers. When the photo appeared on an early Wednesday (Sept. 12)
edition of the Saginaw (Michigan) Press, the phone calls began. (See images below.)

Further reports indicate that both CNN and ABC have also captured additional devilish images on their television videotape coverage. (See images below.)

Additional faces and images have also been identified by several others. (See images below.)

The images on this page are not intended to frighten. They are what they are: mostly evil images from an evil act. I, like most people in the world, are convinced that goodness will prevail over evil, and we pray that the likes of these images will never be seen again.

In a speech to the USA on September 11th, President Bush said, "Today, our nation saw evil." He may have been literally correct. Later in that same speech he also said, "Tonight, I ask for your prayers for all those who grieve, for the children whose worlds have been shattered, for all whose sense of safety and security has been threatened. And I pray they will be comforted by a power greater than any of us spoken through the ages in Psalm 23: "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil for you are with me."

Not all images below depict evil faces. Some images depict angel-like images, objects, and flying creatures.


We offer our research as an archive of the images that show something, whatever that something may be.

There are also remarkable stories of NYC firemen dropping to their knees in prayer after seeing crosses rising up from the catastrophic ruins of the WTC towers.

We begin this section with the original story of the crosses, images of one of the crosses, where the cross was originally sighted, and a memorial with the NYC Fire Department. We have also included memorable cross images from the days following the September 11th attacks.

God Bless Our Earth.


Standing CROSS found!

user posted image
Two FDNY Firemen raise hands at a cross ceremony on October 4, 2001,
where the Cross was blessed and later moved.

User posted image
June 20, 2002
Vatican WTC cross ceremony.

User posted image
The WTC cross becomes an inspiration to the Ground Zero workers.

On September 23, 2001, The New York Post Published the Following Story:
© NY Post

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
On the morning of September 11, 2001, I was working at my home office. After being informed of the first terrorist attack on the Trade Center towers I turned on the television and watched the horror unfold. I was shocked at the unimaginable destruction, and overwhelming loss of life. It was a tragedy beyond belief.

As I watched that morning, I noticed a series of eerie faces in the billowing smoke. These images appeared to morph in the seemingly never-ending pillars of ugly black smoke. I made a mental note of these surreal apparitions, and I mentioned it to my wife. I did not discuss these sightings again. After all, I tend to see images in clouds. However the images I see in clouds are always pleasant images, usually animals.

In assembling the archives for this site, I viewed thousands of images and newspaper covers. Again, I noticed the eerie faces in the still images of the smoke of the burning towers. They seemed to be present in not just one, but several of the burning tower images. Further research provided additional information and seemed to confirm what I was seeing.

I was not alone in noticing these awful faces.

Mark D. Phillips, a professional AP photographer in New York, captured an incredibly real image of an evil, devil-like face that is distinguishable on the side of the tower's exterior structure. The authenticity of this image has caused a bit of a stir. Our research has concluded that his image is original and not doctored.


The Associated Press and Mark Phillips have unequivocally denied any tampering or enhancement of the image. In fact, neither AP or Phillips were aware of what the photograph appeared to reveal until the image was noticed by readers of US newspapers. When the photo appeared on an early Wednesday (Sept. 12)
edition of the Saginaw (Michigan) Press, the phone calls began. (See images below.)

Further reports indicate that both CNN and ABC have also captured additional devilish images on their television videotape coverage. (See images below.)

Additional faces and images have also been identified by several others. (See images below.)

The images on this page are not intended to frighten. They are what they are: mostly evil images from an evil act. I, like most people in the world, are convinced that goodness will prevail over evil, and we pray that the likes of these images will never be seen again.

In a speech to the USA on September 11th, President Bush said, "Today, our nation saw evil." He may have been literally correct. Later in that same speech he also said, "Tonight, I ask for your prayers for all those who grieve, for the children whose worlds have been shattered, for all whose sense of safety and security has been threatened. And I pray they will be comforted by a power greater than any of us spoken through the ages in Psalm 23: "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil for you are with me."

Not all images below depict evil faces. Some images depict angel-like images, objects, and flying creatures.


We offer our research as an archive of the images that show something, whatever that something may be.

There are also remarkable stories of NYC firemen dropping to their knees in prayer after seeing crosses rising up from the catastrophic ruins of the WTC towers.

We begin this section with the original story of the crosses, images of one of the crosses, where the cross was originally sighted, and a memorial with the NYC Fire Department. We have also included memorable cross images from the days following the September 11th attacks.

God Bless Our Earth.


Standing CROSS found!

user posted image
Two FDNY Firemen raise hands at a cross ceremony on October 4, 2001,
where the Cross was blessed and later moved.

User posted image
June 20, 2002
Vatican WTC cross ceremony.

User posted image
The WTC cross becomes an inspiration to the Ground Zero workers.

On September 23, 2001, The New York Post Published the Following Story:
© NY Post

You are looking at what some people believe is a miracle.

Two days after the disaster, a construction worker found several perfectly formed crosses planted upright in a pit in the rubble of the heavily damaged 6 World Trade Center.

The large, cross-shaped metal beams just happened to fall that way when one of the towers collapsed. An FBI chaplain who has spent days at ground zero says he has not seen anything like it on the vast site.

As word of the find has spread at ground zero, exhausted and emotionally overwhelmed rescue workers have been flocking to the site to pray and meditate.

"People have a very emotional reaction when they see it," says the Rev. Carl Bassett, an FBI chaplain. "They are amazed to see something like that in all the disarray. There's no symmetry to anything down there, except those crosses."

Chaplain Ray Giunta of Sacramento, Calif., has been to the crosses to pray with rescue workers.

"One of the firefighters pointed to them last night and told me, ‘There's my angel,'" Giunta said.

The angel protecting the pit where the crosses were found is the Brooklyn-born hardhat who found them: a gentle giant named Frank Silecchia.

Silecchia, 47, who now lives in Little Ferry, N.J., found the crosses on the Thursday morning immediately following the collapse of the towers. He marked the site by spray-painting on a nearby wall the words "God's House," and a directional arrow.

"The crosses are just shards of steel that came from the Tower 1 [the north tower], and went right through the roof of Building 6 and destroyed the entire center of it," he explained.

"When I first saw it, it took my heart, and made me cry for about 20 minutes," he says. "It helped me heal the burden of my despair, and gave me closure on the whole catastrophe."

In subsequent days, Silecchia, a born-again Christian, led his fellow rescue workers and others - many of whom were grieving the loss of loved ones - to the crosses.

A veteran firefighter who had been digging through the twisted metal for his lost firefighter son. An angry cop who lost someone in the collapse. A Vatican representative, who photographed the crosses for the pope. And ABC's Barbara Walters.

He says they all left in peace.

"Barbara Walters' niece lost her son in the building," he said. "Barbara told me she wanted people to see
the House of God, so people who needed healing could find it."


THIS

No really, its not about Christianity as they say, we have to believe them, thats its not just another CRUSADE!

laugh.gif
Heccateus
QUOTE
Oh, and if you think the issue is that big WHY LEAVE CHINA, INDIA, MEXICO, BRAZIL and RUSSIA OUT OF KYOTO?


Because the issue is likely too big to mitigate by eliminating fossil fuels and humanity must adapt to coming changes, and in order to adapt we must have wealthy economies. These countries of all the post Cold War countries stand the best chance of becoming 'developed' enough to handle the coming climate changes, if given a reasonable chance to develop. These countries don't have a choice but to eventually be apart of the program. The U.S. and Australian governments are just being tools for the short sighted fossil industries. There are legitimate reasons for being skeptical of the Kyoto Treaty, these developing nations aren't one of those reasons.
adoucette
QUOTE (Heccateus+Sep 11 2006, 09:53 AM)

Because the issue is likely too big to mitigate by eliminating fossil fuels and humanity must adapt to coming changes, and in order to adapt we must have wealthy economies. These countries of all the post Cold War countries stand the best chance of becoming 'developed' enough to handle the coming climate changes, if given a reasonable chance to develop. These countries don't have a choice but to eventually be apart of the program. The U.S. and Australian governments are just being tools for the short sighted fossil industries. There are legitimate reasons for being skeptical of the Kyoto Treaty, these developing nations aren't one of those reasons.

So net-net, you are saying the point of Kyoto is NOT to solve a climatic problem but to TRANSFER WEALTH from the Developed countries to the Developing countries, thus making the Developing countries WEALTHIER, by allowing them UNTAXED production of CO2, so they can better afford the costs of mitigating the ASSUMED NEGATIVE impacts of CO2 induced climate change?

Arthur
Heccateus
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 11 2006, 02:27 PM)
So net-net, you are saying the point of Kyoto is NOT to solve a climatic problem but to TRANSFER WEALTH from the Developed countries to the Developing countries, thus making the Developing countries WEALTHIER, by allowing them UNTAXED production of CO2, so they can better afford the costs of mitigating the ASSUMED NEGATIVE impacts of CO2 induced climate change?

Arthur

No, I am not saying that the point of Kyoto is to transfer wealth. And neither is the point to save the Earth to the exclusion of humanity. The point of the Kyoto Treaty is to begin to save global civilization by surviving climate change. It must strike a balance between mitigation of future preventable climate change, and adaptation to inevitable climate change.

To adapt you need wealth. And wealth is not a zero-sum game, the growing wealth of the older developed nations is dependent on the growing wealth of the developing nations. Helping them helps us; and not just economically, wealth generates peace too. And the Kyoto Treaty is not a 'transfer' of wealth, as the developed nations purchase the service of better climate control, which is to their own benefit, not just for developing nations.

And ther is no 'assumption' of losses due to climate change; it is already being experienced throughout the world in billions of dollars worth of damage and/or forced adaptation.

(Why are using ALL CAPS? bold and italics work fine.)
adoucette
QUOTE
it is already being experienced throughout the world in billions of dollars worth of damage and/or forced adaptation.


Ah, can you point to ANY "damage or forced adaption" that has been caused by the supposed increase of 1d F over 100 years, where approx 1/2d F was supposedly caused by man and where ALMOST ALL of the warming was supposedly in the ARCTIC IN WINTER?

Please factor in that the NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY of the planet went UP by 6% over the last decade.

Arthur
Heccateus
adoucette, I don't have much more time to reply more today, but here is some of the 'ANY' you requested:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/131906_oil23.html
adoucette
QUOTE (Heccateus+Sep 11 2006, 02:17 PM)
adoucette, I don't have much more time to reply more today, but here is some of the 'ANY' you requested:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/131906_oil23.html

Ohhhh, because WE made laws that were designed to allow drilling but have almost no impact on the Tundra (the ground is frozen to 12 inches deep and covered by at least 6 inches of snow) and didn't consider that when we made them that we were in a COLD period and that it would again go through a warm period.. you lay the blame/cost on Global Warming?

That's RICH.

Except, as you can see, it WAS warmer and not that long ago.

User posted image

http://i1.tinypic.com/se22ol.gif

Simple solution, change the friggin laws and allow a REAL ROAD to be built.

Arthur
Heccateus
You said 'ANY damage', changing laws and rebuilding incur added costs, and thus count as 'damage'. Additionally, many villages on Alaskan coasts are washing away due to a combination lack of spring coastal sea ice, which would have otherwise prevented the now powerful storm waves from smashing the now melting tundra shores. This not only addes to the cost of relocating these peoples, but washes away priceless cultural treasures of the Inuit people. 'ANY Damage'.

If I had time I'd list more.
adoucette
See previous graphic.

It was warmer before in the Arctic.

What? Did Global Warming RETREATED from the 30s to the late 70s while CO2 was INCREASING.

Hmmmm?

Maybe there are OTHER reasons that PORTIONS of the Arctic are warming?

Is that why the latest Arctic Assessment started their Climate Clock in the 70s?

So they could just show the UPSWING in temps and ignore the PREVIOUS warm periods?

Hmmmm?

Oh, and in case you hadn't heard, the ocean has been rising for 20,000 years. Those villages were doomed when they were built.

I bet you think we should worry also about people who choose to live on Ocean Atolls.

laugh.gif

NONE of them will last either.

Nor will the lower 9th ward of New Orleans.

Don't blame the cost of EXPOSED LOW LYING SEA SIDE siting decisions on Global Warming.

Arthur
Markinosis
Anything to weasel out and pick on.

Arctic surface air temperatures - 50 year changes :best EVER data collection to date:

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

Sea ice extent averaged over the Northern Hemisphere has decreased correspondingly over the past 50 years. The largest change has been observed in the summer months with decreases exceeding 30%. Decreases observed in winter are more modest.

User posted image

User posted image

Oh, and see this site for professional, experienced and expert analysis, research and feedback:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
All models all scenarios:

User posted image

The Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew has issued a "position paper" saying that man-made global warming is changing the outlook for plants and trees worldwide.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5336458.stm

Increases in hurricane intensity are down to humanity's greenhouse gas emissions, according to new analysis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5335362.stm

But oh, heck, according to Arthur, theyre ALL "IN ON IT" and "publicity stunts".

Rite.
adoucette
As to Hurricanes

Instead of Santer and his modeler buddies who are in the THEORETICAL business of FORECASTING, why not go to people who STUDY actual Hurricanes?

http://hurricane.atmos.colostate.edu/Forecasts/2006/sep2006/

5 Is Global Warming Responsible for the Large Upswing in 2004-2005 US Hurricane Landfalls?


5.1 Background


The U.S. landfall of major hurricanes Dennis, Katrina, Rita and Wilma in 2005 and the four Florida landfalling hurricanes of 2004 (Charley, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne) has raised questions about the possible role that global warming may be playing in these last two unusually destructive seasons.


The global warming arguments have been given much attention by many media references to recent papers claiming to show such a linkage. Despite the global warming of the sea surface of about 0.4°C that has taken place over the last two decades, global numbers of hurricanes and their intensity have not shown increases over the past twenty years (Klotzbach 2006). In addition, we have no valid physical theory as to why small changes of global average sea surface temperature (SST) should bring about increases in Atlantic basin hurricane activity. In the past century, Atlantic basin hurricane activity has been above-average both when global SST has been increasing (from the middle 1920s through the middle 1940s) and when global SST has been decreasing (from the middle 1940s through the middle 1960s).



The Atlantic has seen a very large increase in major hurricanes during the last 11-year period of 1995-2005 (average 4.0 per year) in comparison to the prior 25-year period of 1970-1994 (average 1.5 per year). This large increase in Atlantic major hurricanes is primarily a result of a multi-decadal increase in strength in the Atlantic Ocean thermohaline circulation (THC) which is not directly related to global temperature increase. Changes in ocean salinity are believed to be the driving mechanism. These multi-decadal changes have also been termed the Atlantic Multi-Decadal Oscillation (AMO). It should also be noted that during this same time period, activity in the Northeast Pacific basin has decreased considerably. When activity in these two basins (the North Atlantic and the Northeast Pacific) is summed together, there has been virtually no trend in major hurricanes.

There have been similar past periods (1940s-1950s) when the Atlantic was just as active as in recent years. For instance, when we compare Atlantic basin hurricane numbers of the last 15 years with an earlier 15-year period (1950-1964), we see little difference in hurricane frequency or intensity even though global surface temperatures were cooler and there was a general global cooling during 1950-1964 as compared with global warming during 1990-2004.



As to your Arctic data, again, you are just selectively choosing endpoints.

Like we DON'T have GOOD data back more than 50 years?

What a LAUGH

http://i1.tinypic.com/se22ol.gif

User posted image

Get REAL and QUIT DRINKING the BBC Kool-Aid.

Britian with its declining popultation and stagnant economy is a WINNER under Kyoto.

WE KNOW why THEY want it. Explain why ANY country who has a GROWING POPULATION and a growing MANUFACTURING based economy would?

Oh, besides China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Russia, or Why the EU said they would meet their goals as a GROUP, that is AFTER they included the failed economies of the former USSR within the definition of what makes up the EU.

The IPCC is nothing more than ADVOCACY based science from the UN designed to support SOCIAL changes via ECONOMIC POLICY.

Arthur
Markinosis
I was waiting for that, thanks! The REAL reason for your denial and argumentation lies in economics and political "games" in competition with worldly nations as you nicely conveyed. Yes, Arthur, thats EXACTLY why the US fights it.

As for you, well you propose a no frills argument that ONLY the most DISCREDITED and unsupported known rebels in science have and deservingly they meet the right treatment, worldwide. Yet what you say is NASA, IPCC, ALL the 100's if not 1000's peer reviewed papers and EVERY other scientific organization/committee with 1000's of professors and experts are plainly lying, short-sighted, not as intelligent as you, and IN ON IT for publicity, funding etc. Basically that physics completely has failed!

Sigh

Another one of them.

What you prove is that you'll deny, fight and "attack" anyone regardless of who, if its the BBC or otherwise. As long as its against your stance and interest.

Yes we have data, further back. For anyone not "in the know" this is the argument the minority opposition rests on.

You forget, HOW did you/we get wealthy in ANY manner at all, if not for the Industrial Revolution & industries freely operating for 200years?
Kind of like PEAKING in the 1940s.

Did China do that, India, Pakistan, or Brazil etc? NO

Who led to todays CO2 increases etc? WE the "developed" wealthy leaders

Since this is the only stick you can balance on ....

1999:
COLUMBUS, Ohio -- New research suggests that an increase in arctic temperatures as a result of global warming could result in significantly higher levels of carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere. This, in turn, could fuel global warming even more.

The study found that artificially elevating summer temperatures by about 2 degrees Celsius (3.6F) on plots of arctic tundra increased the CO2 emissions by 26 to 38 percent under normal snowfall. When snowfall on some plots was increased -- which is one possibility under global warming -- CO2 emissions increased 112 to 326 percent.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/...90302063807.htm

-------
2000:
"Arctic temperatures in the late 20th century, which were the warmest in four centuries, have been accompanied by a variety of other environmental changes, according to a review paper published in mid-July by a group of the world's leading Arctic researchers."

"The changes appear to be at least partly a result of human activity, said University of Colorado at Boulder Research Associate Mark Serreze, the paper's principal author. Serreze and nine co-authors reviewed a series of more than 100 separate studies targeting a variety of components of Arctic change over decades and centuries."

[i]"In some of the northernmost regions of the world, temperatures have warmed alarmingly in a very short period, according to climate data, said Serreze. Parts of Alaska and northern Eurasia, for example, have warmed by nearly 11 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter months over the past 30 years. "We have climate evidence from the past four centuries gleaned from ice cores, lake cores and tree rings that don't show nearly as dramatic warming, putting the modern record into context," he said.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200007111...trunc_sys.shtml

-------
2003:
"Recently observed change in Arctic temperatures and sea ice cover may be a harbinger of global climate changes to come, according to a recent NASA study. Satellite data -- the unique view from space -- are allowing researchers to more clearly see Arctic changes and develop an improved understanding of the possible effect on climate worldwide.

"The Arctic warming study, appearing in the November 1 issue of the American Meteorological Society's Journal of Climate, shows that compared to the 1980s, most of the Arctic warmed significantly over the last decade, with the biggest temperature increases occurring over North America.

"The new study is unique in that, previously, similar studies made use of data from very few points scattered in various parts of the Arctic region," said the study's author, Dr. Josefino C. Comiso, senior research scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "These results show the large spatial variability in the trends that only satellite data can provide." Comiso used surface temperatures taken from satellites between 1981 and 2001 in his study."


According to Comiso's study, when compared to longer term ground-based surface temperature data, the rate of warming in the Arctic over the last 20 years is eight times the rate of warming over the last 100 years.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/t...1023esuice.html

user posted image user posted image
user posted image
Side by side comparisons of Arctic sea-ice from 1979>2003>2005.

--------
2005:
Arctic Sea Ice Continues to Decline, Arctic Temperatures Continue to Rise In
Researchers from NASA, the National Snow and Ice Data Center and others using satellite data have detected a significant loss in Arctic sea ice this year.

On Sept. 21, 2005, sea ice extent dropped to 2.05 million sq. miles, the lowest extent yet recorded in the satellite record. Incorporating the 2005 minimum, with a projection for ice growth in the last few days of this September, brings the estimated decline in Arctic sea ice to 8.5 percent per decade.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/t...ce_decline.html

-------------
28-09-2005:
"The research group used the satellite record -- dating back to 1978 -- to determine that the 2005 spring and summer melting began about 17 days earlier than usual, a new record. Average air temperatures across most of the Arctic Ocean from January to August 2005 were between 3.6 degrees F and 5.4 degrees F warmer than average compared to the last 50 years, said the team.

"Since the 1990s, The melting and retreat trends are accelerating," said Scambos. "And the one common thread is that Arctic temperatures over the ice, ocean and surrounding land have increased in recent decades."

"Something has fundamentally changed here, and the best answer is warming," Serreze said."

http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2005/375.html

-------
Interesting from your link Arthur:
QUOTE
In addition, we have no valid physical theory as to why small changes of global average sea surface temperature (SST) should bring about increases in Atlantic basin hurricane activity.
------
The Atlantic has seen a very large increase in major hurricanes during the last 11-year period of 1995-2005 (average 4.0 per year) in comparison to the prior 25-year period of 1970-1994 (average 1.5 per year).


September 2006:
"Climate scientists have uncovered more evidence that human activities are raising ocean temperatures, spawning more powerful hurricanes. The researchers used 22 different climate models to reproduce ocean temperatures over the last 100 years. They found that human-caused greenhouse gases, ozone and aerosol particles are raising ocean temperatures, which provide energy to the strongest hurricanes.

New research shows that rising sea surface temperatures (SSTs) in hurricane “breeding grounds” of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans are unlikely to be purely natural in origin. These findings complement earlier work that uncovered compelling scientific evidence of a link between warming SSTs and increases in hurricane intensity."[/b]

ACTUAL experts? You mean like this:
Using 22 different computer models of the climate system, atmospheric scientists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and ten other research centers have shown that the warming of the tropical Atlantic and Pacific oceans over the last century is directly linked to human activities.
http://www.universetoday.com/2006/09/12/hu...ore-hurricanes/

-------
September 2006:
"New research indicates that periods of global warming in the past triggered the release of vast quantities of methane stored beneath the oceans. These reserves are generated over long periods of time by bacteria and other organisms, but is chemically frozen into the sea floor. Methane is powerful greenhouse gas, and contributes to the general effect of global warming. The emissions peaked 16,000-14,000 years ago, and then again 11,000-10,000 years ago, and could happen again if ocean temperatures rise above some unknown level."
http://www.universetoday.com/2006/09/11/an...ent-of-methane/

Repeatedly peer reviewed studies in the most academically cogent and professionally recognized journals, corroborated, researched, evidenced and supported. Until you have something published like this, peer-reviewed and supported, I can't believe a laymans word on such deep and expertize requiring matters.

But I understand your take on these matters as driven by:

User posted image

In summary you hold to:
* Don't trust short climate records in general, or Arctic climate records that start post 1950 or so.
* The Arctic was warmer in the 1930s than it is today, and somehow, mysteriously and magically, neither the polar bears nor the Inuit became extinct. Nor did we go over any mythical "tipping point".
* There is nothing unusual about the temperature rise of the last decades.

Thats REGARDLESS of whatever findings we do discover with globally ongoing studies as well.

Yes, science of course.


adoucette
QUOTE (Markinosis+Sep 13 2006, 02:34 AM)
I was waiting for that, thanks! The REAL reason for your denial and argumentation lies in economics and political "games" in competition with worldly nations as you nicely conveyed. Yes, Arthur, thats EXACTLY why the US fights it.

As for you, well you propose a no frills argument that ONLY the most DISCREDITED and unsupported known rebels in science have and deservingly they meet the right treatment, worldwide. Yet what you say is NASA, IPCC, ALL the 100's if not 1000's peer reviewed papers and EVERY other scientific organization/committee with 1000's of professors and experts are plainly lying, short-sighted, not as intelligent as you, and IN ON IT for publicity, funding etc. Basically that physics completely has failed!


The VAST majority of these scientists are NOT Climatoligists.

The VAST majority of the studies are coming from scientists using the output of the IPCC models to do studies and then make projections. So their work is all fruit from a poisoned tree.

Every 4 year report, the IPCC projections of future warming WENT DOWN.

UNTIL, they introduced the SCENARIOS.

Finally the IPCC had found a way, of projecting a TOTALLY UNREALISTIC FUTURE that generated vast quantities of CO2 (yet managed to curtail the "cooling" gases) and thus generated their OUTRAGEOUS +6 C projections.

Which then OTHER scientists took and used in their studies and started churning out reports saying in effect IF A then B. Of course these scientists took NO RESPONSIBILITY for the accuracy (or possiblility) of A.

Since these IPCC scenarios are CLEARLY WRONG and CLEARLY POLITICAL it is not at all surprising that the OUTPUT of these HYPER-INFLATED models that are OVERLY SENSITIVE to CO2 forcing (by using an H20 Feedback mechanism that has NEVER been proven) produce INFLATED NUMBERS.


The unreality of the assumptions about economic growth in developing countries is highlighted by projections which were recently released on the IPCC’s SRES website. These projections imply that, even for the lowest emission scenarios, the average income of South Africans will have overtaken that of Americans by a very wide margin by the end of the century. In fact America's per capita income will then have been surpassed not only by South Africa's, but also by that of other emerging economic powerhouses, including Algeria, Argentina, Libya, Turkey and North Korea.

The SRES summary for policymakers tells us that the 40 scenarios “together encompass the current range of uncertainties of future emissions”. Plainly, this is incorrect. The panel's low-emissions scenarios make exceptionally optimistic assumptions about economic growth in the developing world. The combination of overstated gaps and of built-in assumptions about the extent of convergence in the average incomes of rich and poor countries yields projections of GDP for developing regions which are improbably high.

Even the scenarios which give the lowest figures for projected cumulative emissions in the course of the century assume that average incomes in the developing countries as a whole will increase at a much faster rate than has ever been achieved in the past.
David Henderson - Westminster Business School, formerly the chief economist of the OECD


So the IPCC models BEGIN with VERY BAD ASSUMPTIONS.

What is really strange is that the A1 scenario which gives the highest warming also projects the HIGHEST AVERAGE GLOBAL ECONOMIC WEALTH. Far higher than today. So what the IPCC is saying is warming will be a problem in a world where a VAST number of the population are FAR better economic shape than they are today.

I say, "Bring it on"

laugh.gif

But you can't discuss this issue without discussing the supposed REMEDY.

Kyoto.

It, like the IPCC models is hopelessly flawed and TRANSPARENT in its BIAS against Manufacturing countries with growing populations.

The point is REAL SIMPLE.

Either CO2 is as BAD as you claim it is and thus EVERYONE needs to do EVERYTHING they can to reduce it

or

CO2 is NOT THAT BAD

so its fine to allow countries like China, India, Packistan, Mexico, Russia and Brazil to INCREASE CO2 AS MUCH AS THEY DESIRE, for the EU with its stagnent economy to make Few to MODEST cuts in CO2, but that the US, Canada, Australia and Japan should impose HEAVY CO2 taxes in order to significantly curtail their energy consumption.

So which is it?

Is the world in PERIL from CO2 and EVERYONE SHOULD DO ALL THEY CAN.

or

Do we just need a UN agency to REGULATE via TAXATION which countries are allowed to produce how much CO2, factoring in how WEALTHY they are as a valid reason to curtail their use of energy?

I hear Koffi's son is looking for a new "project" to manage.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE
September 2006:
"New research indicates that periods of global warming in the past triggered the release of vast quantities of methane stored beneath the oceans. These reserves are generated over long periods of time by bacteria and other organisms, but is chemically frozen into the sea floor. Methane is powerful greenhouse gas, and contributes to the general effect of global warming. The emissions peaked 16,000-14,000 years ago, and then again 11,000-10,000 years ago, and could happen again if ocean temperatures rise above some unknown level."


Translation:

New research indicates that GREATER WARMING than currently seen were triggered at least twice since the last glacial period and prior to ANY possible anthropological contributions to global warming.

Since currently there is no evidence that these Methane hydrates are at risk and more importanly, atmospheric concentrations of Methane is FALLING, we need to presume that the NATURAL CYCLES of the planet are sufficient to cause these releases.

Since the VAST MAJORITY of plant and animal species that are alive today were also alive 10,000 years ago there is NO INDICATION that this massive release of methane had any serious long term negative implications to the planets biosphere.

Arthur
adoucette
All of your Arctic posts simply highlight the fact that since according to the IPCC the entire 20th century GLOBAL warming was but 0.6C, then if THESE Arctic figures are correct, which show far greater warming, though over a smaller percentage of the entire globe, then this still must represent the MAJORITY of the Global warming over the last Century.

Which means we aren't really talking about GLOBAL WARMING so much as mainly an issue of warming in the WINTER in the ARCTIC regions.

Which means using this NON-UNIQUE (in the 20th century) ARCTIC warming to support the contention there is ALSO global warming is CIRCULAR logic.

Arthur
StevenA
It seems there's at least an agreement that there's political motives behind the CO2 hype. If they were actually concerned about warming, they'd be looking at much more significant factors than CO2 (water vapor has a much much larger greenhouse effect and is more volatile in atmospheric quantities as well, but is simply ignored).

There are probably around 5 billion people in China and India alone. Few people will benefit from having oil prices raised, especially considering that many places simply couldn't afford much at higher prices.

Are we suppose to invade Iran if they don't comply with some elite global oil decrees?

Anyone who thinks the intentions are good over this is quite trusting (and in my opinion naive).

user posted image

If we assume these computer graphics are accurate then why don't we see some significant rise in ocean levels? If these images are true, then the claims that rising ocean levels are a problem is entirely false as we should be a decent % of the way into this event and it shows little influence on sea level.

The Rocky Mountains nearby were covered in glaciers in the last Ice Age and we've come out of one. Maybe it's not such a bad thing if the Earth is warmer anyway (and surely better than being largely frozen). If you take temperature extremes over a long period, this drift is a 'blip' on the radar. Why is it that the Earth must maintain one temperature versus moving back toward another one? Even if some of the ice melts, is that necessarily bad? The poles are some of the most inhospitable areas for life on Earth. If they happen to warm faster than the equator, isn't that actually a good thing?

But anyway, why is this almost entirely ignored by people claiming to be concerned over greenhouse gases?

400 times increase in water vapor versus CO2
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=8986

If people were truly concerned about greenhouse gases, they wouldn't simply blow this off, but the fact that they don't care about anything other than CO2 speaks perfectly for political motivations instead of a concern about warming. (Of course I'm not mentioning solar variation or changes in surface reflections either).

Current industrialized nations are using a similar amount of oil as they have for many decades, whereas developing countries are increasing in their demand. If we hand anything like monopoly powers over the industry to a global agency, this will be a problem waiting to happen. You can already see the political and military conflicts over energy inside many nations as well as more broadly strewn about in the middle east. Just say 'no' to letting more of this happen.

The Earth has lost most all the atmospheric CO2 it had in the past and is left with thousands of times less carbon. If this increasing by 1/10,000th, it's not going to end the world and plants will simply grow faster recycling it.

In the long run the Earth is getting colder anyway. The moon is at the same distance from the Sun but lost any atmosphere it had and is rather frozen now, yet it receives the same levels of exposure to solar radiation as us.

The Earth began as magna and though the core is still many thouasnds of degrees, we've cooled and developed a solid crust (though still very thin in comparison to the diameter of the Earth). This process is one way ... you aren't going to get this heat back nor is our atmosphere going to return to much higher densities (and even if it did, that still wouldn't stop the Earth from cooling). So the ideas of a runaway greenhouse effect are pure sci-fi/fantasy that have been politically motivated into becoming propoganda. (I can just imagine the next "War on Heat" in the middle east, if the War of Terror fails)
Markinosis
Well heres one side of it:

Changes in the Sun's brightness over the past millennium have had only a small effect on Earth's climate, according to a review of existing results and new calculations performed by researchers in the United States, Switzerland, and Germany.
[quote]The review, led by Peter Foukal (Heliophysics, Inc.), appears in the September 14 issue of Nature. Among the coauthors is Tom Wigley of the National Center for Atmospheric Research. NCAR’s primary sponsor is the National Science Foundation.

“Our results imply that, over the past century, climate change due to human influences must far outweigh the effects of changes in the Sun's brightness,” says Wigley.[/quote]
http://www.physorg.com/news77373404.html

One factor at large before clearly ruled out.

Now to the main contentional difference between the educated minority and majority.

There is definitely an increase in temperatures, storms/hurricanes, greenhouse gases etc.

DID humans (anthropogenic) cause this or is it natural?

I've already shown complex computer simulated studies undertaken with graphs generating the Earths natural temperatures (according to all previous data) and current temperatures being far too different. By the trend it should NOT be this warm at all. The only accountability proven again and again is to humans and the relationship to CO2 release.
After all, what we discover is nearly EVERYTHING by analyzing trends, patterns and comparisons and most of the times this produces an answer pot on resulting to help us i.e. medicine.

Steven, the pictures shown are NASA satellite and surface data based.
The rest of of what you questioned I've covered previously in the thread, amply.

-----------
As for ice, this is briefly what was found before:
2003: "The Arctic warming study, appearing in the November 1 issue of the American Meteorological Society's Journal of Climate, shows that compared to the 1980s, most of the Arctic warmed significantly over the last decade, with the biggest temperature increases occurring over North America."

Dr. Josefino C. Comiso, senior research scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. Comiso used surface temperatures taken from satellites between 1981 and 2001 in his study.

According to Comiso's study, when compared to longer term ground-based surface temperature data, the rate of warming in the Arctic over the last 20 years is EIGHT TIMES the rate of warming over the last 100 years.

[quote]Warming trends like those found in these studies could greatly affect ocean processes, which, in turn, impact Arctic and global climate, said Michael Steele, senior oceanographer at the University of Washington, Seattle.
Liquid water absorbs the Sun's energy rather than reflecting it into the atmosphere the way ice does. As the oceans warm and ice thins, more solar energy is absorbed by the water, creating positive feedbacks that lead to further melting. Such dynamics can change the temperature of ocean layers, impact ocean circulation and salinity, change marine habitats, and widen shipping lanes, Steele said.


Mark C. Serreze, a scientist at the University of Colorado, Boulder, found that in 2002 the extent of Arctic summer sea ice reached the lowest level in the satellite record, suggesting this is part of a trend. "It appears that the summer 2003 -- if it does not set a new record -- will be very close to the levels of last year," Serreze said. "In other words, we have not seen a recovery; we really see we are reinforcing that general downward trend."[/quote]

This is further corroborated below; with the declining sea ice and increasing temperature trends.

Todays news:
New data gathered by NASA’s QuikScat satellite has found that ice at the Arctic polar ice cap is disappearing rapidly. Just between 2004 and 2005, the spacecraft measured a loss of 14% of the perennial sea ice; ice that normally lasts all year round. This is an amount of ice measuring 720,000 square kilometers (280,000 square miles), an area the size of Texas. Scientists expect that the coverage of perennial sea ice will continue to decrease this year as well.

User posted image

[quote]NASA data show that Arctic perennial sea ice, which normally survives the summer melt season and remains year-round, shrunk abruptly by 14 percent between 2004 and 2005. According to researchers, the loss of perennial ice in the East Arctic Ocean was even higher, nearing 50 percent during that time as some of the ice moved from the East Arctic to the West.

This is one of three sea ice study results being released today by NASA. These findings are the result of a new study by NASA; the U.S. Army Cold Region Research and Engineering Laboratory, Hanover, N.H.; and the National Ice Center, Washington, D.C. Study results are published in a recent issue of Geophysical Research Letters.[/quote]
http://www.universetoday.com/2006/09/13/po...s-melting-fast/

Then we also know from new research (2006) that rising sea surface temperatures (SSTs) in hurricane “breeding grounds” of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans are most likely due to the added human factor. This complements earlier work that uncovered compelling scientific evidence of a link between warming SSTs and increases in hurricane intensity.

--------
[quote-StevenA]Are we suppose to invade Iran if they don't comply with some elite global oil decrees?[/quote]
Not in a sane world.

----------
Sea level rise doubled:

2006: Greenland's glaciers are sliding towards the sea much faster than previously believed, scientists have told a conference in St Louis, US.
"We are concerned because we know that sea levels have been able to rise much faster in the past - 10 times faster. This is a big gorilla. If sea level rise is multiplied by 10 or more, I'm not sure we can deal with that," co-author Eric Rignot, from the US space agency's (Nasa) Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, told the BBC News website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4720536.stm

11-2005: Global ocean levels are rising twice as fast today as they were 150 years ago, and human-induced warming appears to be the culprit, say scientists at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and collaborating institutions.

[quote]While the speed at which the ocean is rising – almost two millimeters per year today compared to one millimeter annually for the past several thousand years – may not be fodder for the next disaster movie, it affirms scientific concerns of accelerated global warming.

In an article published in the Nov. 25 issue of the journal Science, Rutgers professor of geological sciences Kenneth G. Miller reports on a new record of sea level change during the past 100 million years based on drilling studies along the New Jersey coast. The findings establish a steady millimeter-per-year rise from 5,000 years ago until about 200 years ago.
[/quote]
http://www.physorg.com/news9698.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...u-gwd112105.php

--------------
Roughly the greenhouse gases are:
60% water vapor
20% carbon dioxide (CO2)
The rest (~20%) is caused by ozone (O3), nitrous oxide (N2O), methane (CH4), and several other species.

Water vapor HAS been covered and explained. Global Warming is a cyclic process determined by the temperatures which are determined by the greenhouse houses in the first place. Water vapor HAS been dealt with under "secondary effects" :- That is: if the average temperature of atmospheric layers near to the ground, as a consequence of anthropogenic CO2 and methane emissions, is rising, then the evaporation of water is increased. Henceforth more water vapor will get into the air, and this additional abundance of water vapor will also absorb more heat.

The fact being that water vapor leads to a positive feedback in the process of greenhouse warming. If other greenhouse gases produce a warming process, this effect is amplified by the presence of water vapor and thus the temperature rises even more. But if the temperature rises, more and more water evaporates. The abundance of water vapor in the air again increases. Temperature rises ...
More water vapor in the air also gives rise to an increase in the formation of clouds in the troposphere. Clouds do consist of small water droplets, though, and, hence, they do absorb radiation.

What the very few global 'rebellious' scientists leave out is...

With increased water vapour...

Increased cloud are formed which also have a moderating effect on the process of earth's warming because clouds reflect a significant portion of solar insolation. Thus, this portion does not reach the surface of the earth and thus surface is less heated.

Through this process warming of the earth is favored by means of a positive feedback. But at the same time the overall influence of clouds (as a combination of absorption of earth's heat radiation and reflection of solar insulation) is negative. Clouds exert a cooling effect.

A very simplified illustration of this

User posted image

Still, for the present, a consensus of selected high-level researchers at the international level has agreed that the contribution of water vapor to anthropogenic warming is assumed to be in the neighborhood of 50%.

Such as here:
11-2005: According to a team of Swiss scientists, heat from other greenhouse gases is causing more water to evaporate, releasing the vapor into the atmosphere above Europe. That vapor in turn, adds to the greenhouse effect, further warming the region.

Some scientists have argued that Europe's rising temperatures are due to normal weather-circulation patterns. But the new study's results suggest that large-scale weather patterns are only a minor influence on the temperature increase, said lead researcher Rolf Philipona of the World Radiation Center in Davos Dorf, Switzerland.

"It is an experiment that clearly shows which factors are driving the higher temperatures. It is not the clouds, not the sun, not the aerosols. It is the increased greenhouse gases and the strong water vapor impact," Philipona said.

"We believe strongly that we are observing increased greenhouse effect," said Philipona, whose results were published this week in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...10_warming.html

There you have your explanation.
adoucette
QUOTE (Markinosis+Sep 14 2006, 08:52 AM)
----------
Sea level rise doubled:

2006: Greenland's glaciers are sliding towards the sea much faster than previously believed, scientists have told a conference in St Louis, US.
"We are concerned because we know that sea levels have been able to rise much faster in the past - 10 times faster. This is a big gorilla. If sea level rise is multiplied by 10 or more, I'm not sure we can deal with that," co-author Eric Rignot, from the US space agency's (Nasa) Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, told the BBC News website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4720536.stm

11-2005: Global ocean levels are rising twice as fast today as they were 150 years ago, and human-induced warming appears to be the culprit, say scientists at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and collaborating institutions.


http://www.physorg.com/news9698.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...u-gwd112105.php

--------------

Except the study shows that the increase to the CURRENT rate of 2 mm per year began 150 years ago.

WELL PRIOR to the increase in CO2.

Which means YOUR CO2 based argument is BOGUS.

Thanks

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Markinosis+Sep 14 2006, 08:52 AM)
11-2005: According to a team of Swiss scientists, heat from other greenhouse gases is causing more water to evaporate, releasing the vapor into the atmosphere above Europe. That vapor in turn, adds to the greenhouse effect, further warming the region.

Some scientists have argued that Europe's rising temperatures are due to normal weather-circulation patterns. But the new study's results suggest that large-scale weather patterns are only a minor influence on the temperature increase, said lead researcher Rolf Philipona of the World Radiation Center in Davos Dorf, Switzerland.

"It is an experiment that clearly shows which factors are driving the higher temperatures. It is not the clouds, not the sun, not the aerosols. It is the increased greenhouse gases and the strong water vapor impact," Philipona said.

"We believe strongly that we are observing increased greenhouse effect," said Philipona, whose results were published this week in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...10_warming.html

There you have your explanation.

EXCEPT

The study says:

The researchers then plotted the average monthly temperatures for the years 1995 to 2002 for different areas of Europe, including the Alps and central Europe. They made similar graphs of monthly changes in humidity for the same areas.

While Europe's overall temperature has increased recently, not all regions have increased to the same degree. Some areas have even experienced a temperature decrease.

The team noted that air currents from the Atlantic Ocean in the west typically bring warm, humid air onto the continent, helping to warm the coast.

Even so, the greatest temperature increases were not near the Atlantic coast but farther east—in fact, some temperatures along the coast had actually decreased.

Finally, they concluded that what was different in Germany and Poland was the greater amount of water vapor being released into the atmosphere by forests and crops.

The increased humidity had driven the temperature up, Philipona said.

The scientists calculated that 70 percent of the recent increase in temperatures in central Europe is due to water vapor



So we have IDENTIFIED the CULPRIT.

FORESTS AND CROPS.

laugh.gif

But we blame it on CO2.

Even though they say

70 percent of the recent increase in temperatures in central Europe is due to water vapor

Thanks.

Arthur


StevenA
QUOTE
There is definitely an increase in temperatures, storms/hurricanes, greenhouse gases etc.


Where's evidence for an increase in storms and hurricanes? I haven't heard there's evidence for this and from what I've seen, if anything there's been a decrease in storms over the last 30 years. (Even personal experience in Southern California agrees with this, though I admit that's anecdotal, but there's still no substitute for firsthand experiences).

It appears I'm not alone in this view either:

User posted image

# Altlantic Hurricanes

User posted image

User posted image

New South Wales

From what I've seen except for one blantantly biased graph (they separated the plot into two halves and tried to show an increase over the last 25 years, whereas it was flat for ~30 years before that, but they forgot to erase the numbers becase after you compared the baselines there was actually a drop in the number of hurricanes but they recentered after ~1975 simply show they could draw a line going up), there's nothing indicating an increase in numbers or strengths of storms (actually many plots seem to say the last 30 years or so have actually been calmer than normal).

There was another plot trying to show an increase in numbers of storms but if you looked closely they were showing the number of reports not number of storms, which experienced a large recent increase, but that's obvious simply because the population grows and the number of people holding cell phones to easily report something has increased.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There is definitely an increase in temperatures, storms/hurricanes, greenhouse gases etc.


Where's evidence for an increase in storms and hurricanes? I haven't heard there's evidence for this and from what I've seen, if anything there's been a decrease in storms over the last 30 years. (Even personal experience in Southern California agrees with this, though I admit that's anecdotal, but there's still no substitute for firsthand experiences).

It appears I'm not alone in this view either:

User posted image

# Altlantic Hurricanes

User posted image

User posted image

New South Wales

From what I've seen except for one blantantly biased graph (they separated the plot into two halves and tried to show an increase over the last 25 years, whereas it was flat for ~30 years before that, but they forgot to erase the numbers becase after you compared the baselines there was actually a drop in the number of hurricanes but they recentered after ~1975 simply show they could draw a line going up), there's nothing indicating an increase in numbers or strengths of storms (actually many plots seem to say the last 30 years or so have actually been calmer than normal).

There was another plot trying to show an increase in numbers of storms but if you looked closely they were showing the number of reports not number of storms, which experienced a large recent increase, but that's obvious simply because the population grows and the number of people holding cell phones to easily report something has increased.

Still, for the present, a consensus of selected high-level researchers at the international level has agreed that the contribution of water vapor to anthropogenic warming is assumed to be in the neighborhood of 50%.


This is impossible as the relationship you're describing isn't even a linear one.

If water vapor is ~100 times as dense in the atmosphere as CO2 and only half of any greenhouse effect is assumed due to it due to cloud cover, then you've shot yourself in the foot for this argument because that means clouds are capable of offsetting the effect of a greenhouse gas by around 99% of this effect.

In other words, if CO2 even doubles, then the combined water vapor and CO2 levels would only increase by 1%. So cloud cover would only need to increase by ~1% to offset this!!!

You just shot your own argument down. Temperatures and water vapor are much more closely tied together and by looking at water vapor and ice you can even explain Ice Ages, whereas CO2 doesn't.

User posted image

Here's a plot of correlation over more than a decade at a location between water vapor and temperature.
adoucette
QUOTE (Markinosis+Sep 14 2006, 08:52 AM)
Well heres one side of it:

Changes in the Sun's brightness over the past millennium have had only a small effect on Earth's climate, according to a review of existing results and new calculations performed by researchers in the United States, Switzerland, and Germany.

http://www.physorg.com/news77373404.html

One factor at large before clearly ruled out.


Nope,

WHY?

Because you gotta go to the source:

The authors used a blend of seven recent reconstructions of Northern Hemisphere temperature over the past millennium to test the effects of long-term changes in brightness. They then assessed how much the changes in solar brightness produced by sunspots and faculae (as measured by the sunspot and radioisotope data) might have affected temperature. Even though sunspots and faculae have increased over the last 400 years, these phenomena explain only a small fraction of global warming over the period, according to the authors.

Which tells me that they used the FLAWED Mann Proxy results which made the GWP and the LIA essentially disappear.

So its nothing more than a SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY.

The key here is the only thing which is KNOWN is that the sunspots and faculae have increased over the last 400 years, which we KNOW are associated with increased Solar output.

Thanks

Arthur


lengould
Doh.

Such concerted effort to refute just the small community of worldwide climate scientists. Hardly seems worth it.
Markinosis
More substantiated support, results and evidence for Global Warming>

[I hope the quotes dont bugger up this time]

England's warming 'not natural'

Temperatures in central England are about 1C higher than in the 1950s, and humanity's greenhouse gas emissions are the reason, a new study indicates.

Researchers at the Meteorological Office analysed temperature records going back almost 350 years.


QUOTE
In 1950, the average temperature was about 9.4C; now it is about 10.4C.

Computer models of climate demonstrate that the warming observed over the past 50 years is extremely unlikely to be part of a natural cycle.

Recent studies show British animals migrating northwards, and spring arriving earlier right across Europe.

These are also thought to be signs of temperatures rising in Britain and western Europe, in step with the planet as a whole.

Long run

The Central England Temperature (CET) record dates back to 1659, and is the longest continuous series of temperature measurements made by instruments anywhere in the world.

Currently, measurements are made at Pershore, Rothamsted and Stonyhurst, and then averaged.

Since the 1950s, CET has risen by about 1C - more than the global average, but less than the increase recorded in parts of the world thought to be particularly sensitive to climate disruption such as the Arctic Ocean and the Antarctic Peninsula.

David Karoly (now at the University of Oklahoma) and Peter Stott of the Hadley Centre, part of the UK Met Office, used a recent computer model of climate to work out the chance that this rise was part of a natural cycle.

The probability was, they calculated, less than 5%.

Writing in the journal Atmospheric Science Letters, they conclude: "Hence, the observed annual mean warming trend over the last 50 years is very unlikely to be due to natural internal climate variability alone."

The researchers found that when they introduced into the model the factor of "anthropogenic forcing" - greenhouse gases produced by industry, transport and other human activities - the model reproduced the observed temperatures.

SOURCE


Scientists shocked as Arctic polar route emerges

User posted image

PARIS (AFP) - European scientists voiced shock as they showed pictures which showed Arctic ice cover had disappeared so much last month that a ship could sail unhindered from Europe's most northerly outpost to the North Pole itself.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In 1950, the average temperature was about 9.4C; now it is about 10.4C.

Computer models of climate demonstrate that the warming observed over the past 50 years is extremely unlikely to be part of a natural cycle.

Recent studies show British animals migrating northwards, and spring arriving earlier right across Europe.

These are also thought to be signs of temperatures rising in Britain and western Europe, in step with the planet as a whole.

Long run

The Central England Temperature (CET) record dates back to 1659, and is the longest continuous series of temperature measurements made by instruments anywhere in the world.

Currently, measurements are made at Pershore, Rothamsted and Stonyhurst, and then averaged.

Since the 1950s, CET has risen by about 1C - more than the global average, but less than the increase recorded in parts of the world thought to be particularly sensitive to climate disruption such as the Arctic Ocean and the Antarctic Peninsula.

David Karoly (now at the University of Oklahoma) and Peter Stott of the Hadley Centre, part of the UK Met Office, used a recent computer model of climate to work out the chance that this rise was part of a natural cycle.

The probability was, they calculated, less than 5%.

Writing in the journal Atmospheric Science Letters, they conclude: "Hence, the observed annual mean warming trend over the last 50 years is very unlikely to be due to natural internal climate variability alone."

The researchers found that when they introduced into the model the factor of "anthropogenic forcing" - greenhouse gases produced by industry, transport and other human activities - the model reproduced the observed temperatures.

SOURCE


Scientists shocked as Arctic polar route emerges

User posted image

PARIS (AFP) - European scientists voiced shock as they showed pictures which showed Arctic ice cover had disappeared so much last month that a ship could sail unhindered from Europe's most northerly outpost to the North Pole itself.

The satellite images were acquired from August 23 to 25 by instruments aboard Envisat and EOS Aqua, two satellites operated by the European Space Agency (ESA).

Perennial sea ice -- thick ice that is normally present year-round and is not affected by the Arctic summer -- had disappeared over an area bigger than the British Isles, ESA said.

Vast patches of ice-free sea stretched north of Svalbard, an archipelago lying midway between Norway and the North Ple, and extended deep into the Russian Arctic, all the way to the North Pole, the agency said in a press release.

"This situation is unlike anything observed in previous record low-ice seasons," said Mark Drinkwater of ESA's Oceans/Ice Unit.

"It is highly imaginable that a ship could have passed from Spitzbergen or Northern Siberia through what is normally pack ice to reach the North Pole without difficulty."

Spitzbergen is one of the Svalbard islands, which are Norwegian.

Drinkwater added: "If this anomaly continues, the Northeast Passage, or 'Northern Sea Route' between Europe and Asia will be open over longer intervals of time, and it is conceivable we might see attempts at sailing around the world directly across the summer Arctic Ocean within the next 10 to 20 years."

The images are for late summer. In the last weeks, what was open water has begun to freeze, as the autumn air temperatures over the Arctic begin to fall, ESA said.

Regular satellite monitoring over the last 25 years shows that the northern polar ice cover has shrunk and thinned as global temperatures have risen.

But this year's images are unprecedented, and fierce storms that fragmented and scattered already thin pack ice may be to blame, the scientists believe.

The images were released less than a week after a paper, published in the US journal Science, found that year-round sea ice in the Arctic shrank by one seventh between 2004 and 2005.

Loss of sea ice does not affect global sea levels. Ice that floats in the water displaces its own volume.

However ice that is on land, as an icesheet, glacier or permanent snowcap, adds to sea level when it melts and runs off.

Retreating ice cover also creates a vicious circle, adding to the warming caused by greenhouse gases -- carbon emissions, mainly from fossil fuels, that trap the Sun's heat.

Ice, being white, reflects the Sun's rays. Less ice therefore means the sea warms, which in turn accelerates the shrinkage.

The shrinkage of the Arctic icecap is viewed with alarm by scientists, as it appears to perturb important ocean currents elsewhere, notably the Gulf Stream, which gives western Europe its balmy climate.

It also threaten animals such as polar bears and seals that depend on ice.

There are geopolitical implications, too, as Canada, Russia and the United States jockey to claim rights over transpolar passages that open up within their newly ice-free waters.

SOURCE

User posted image
HEAT ENGINE Oceanic thermohaline circulation--or the global conveyor belt--is driven by temperature and salinity differences in sea water. The critical part is the sinking of water in the Norwegian Sea. This circulation is responsible for the large flow of upper ocean water from the tropical Pacific to the Indian Ocean through the Indonesian Archipelago. The yellow circles represent areas where a great deal of heat is released to the atmosphere.
COURTESY OF RUTH CURRY, WOODS HOLE OCEANOGRAPHIC INSTITUTION

User posted image
OCEAN TEMPS These two diagrams represent the warming that has occurred in the surface waters of the South Atlantic and South Indian Oceans since 1960. The red dots represent the observed statistical deviation from 1960 values in standardized units. The blue area represents a control climate model run, showing the range of temperature deviations for natural variation alone. The green area represents the range of deviations predicted for natural and human-induced variation combined. The agreement between the actual temperature deviations and temperature deviations predicted by the model is very close. Similar results were obtained for other major oceans.
COURTESY OF TIM P. BARNETT, SCRIPPS INSTITUTION OF OCEANOGRAPHY


The clearest evidence yet that Earth is warming and that CO2 emissions are largely responsible was presented by researchers in February at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), in Washington, D.C.

The researchers also presented evidence that increasing concentrations of atmospheric CO2 may be causing some biosystems, such as coral reefs, to approach the threshold for damage. If global temperatures rise more than 1.5 °C over today’s level, the world’s tropical coral reefs may be irreversibly destroyed, they said.

QUOTE
Beginning in the 1960s, the average temperatures of surface waters in all of the world’s major oceans began to rise, said Tim P. Barnett, research marine physicist at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. The results of computer models simulating the rise in ocean temperatures from increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 are nearly identical to temperature measurements taken since 1960 at various oceanic depths, he said.

“This is perhaps the most compelling evidence yet that global warming is happening right now, and it shows that we can successfully simulate its past and likely future evolution,” Barnett explained. For the Pacific, Atlantic, and Indian Oceans, graphs representing computer-generated temperatures are almost identical to the plots of actual temperatures, he observed. “The models have captured the observed warming with stunning realism.”

The warming experienced across the globe will have practical effects on water supplies, Barnett said. During the summer, 300 million people in China depend, in whole or in part, on melt water from glaciers for drinking and irrigation. By 2050, two-thirds of these glaciers will have disappeared, he noted.

“There is ample evidence that the planetary water cycle is already altered as a result of global warming,” said Ruth Curry, research specialist in physical oceanography at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. In the past four decades, oceanic surface water at low latitudes has become markedly more saline, while the high-latitude surface ocean has become much fresher, she said.

One reason for the freshening is the melting of Arctic sea ice, Curry explained. (Sea ice is always less saline than ocean water because of a distillation effect during sea ice formation.) Another reason is the melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet. Greenland used to be in mass balance—new snowfall balanced summer melt water from the ice sheet each year. “But now, Greenland is melting faster and faster,” she said. A third reason is that there is more rainfall in northern latitudes, resulting in a larger annual discharge from Eurasian rivers into the Arctic Ocean and from there into the North Atlantic. “Too much freshwater added to key locations in the North Atlantic—the areas where surface water falls to great depths—would disrupt ocean circulation and its transport of heat,” she said.

The circulation in the North Atlantic has switched off in the past, “but we don’t know if it will switch off in the future,” Curry explained. If salinity and thus density of the North Atlantic keep declining, however, “the conveyor belt will stop,” she warned. In the North Atlantic, the conveyor draws warm tropical waters northward, moderating winter temperatures in Northern Europe.


The Arctic Ocean is undergoing dramatic changes because of global warming, said Sharon L. Smith, a professor of marine biology and fisheries at the University of Miami. From 1979 to 2003, the extent of summer sea ice in the Arctic declined 20%. In 1997, an unpredicted and unprecedented change in the ecosystem of the Bering Sea led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of short-tailed shearwaters, probably from starvation. A surface layer of calcifying single-celled plants prevented the seabirds from seeing their krill prey.

At the same time, populations of walrus, seals, and polar bears are declining because they depend on sea ice for foraging, birthing, and resting, Smith said. If current CO2 emissions trends continue, the Arctic is likely to be ice-free in summer sometime in this century.

Richard A. Feely, supervisory oceanographer at the National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration’s Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory, said that rising CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have led to greater CO2 uptake by the oceans. This process of acidification from carbonic acid has already changed the saturation state of the ocean surface water—the first 100 meters—with respect to calcium carbonate, he said. Eventually, if the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere reaches 700 ppm—which is likely during this century—the carbonate ion concentration would drop 48%, and eventually the coral reefs’ ability to produce CaCO3 structures that make up the reef systems would cease. The carbonate ion concentration of the surface ocean has already been reduced 16%.

“Terapods—free-swimming marine mollusks—are currently reacting to the changed conditions by dissolving their shells,” Feely said. “What we do know for sure is the calcification rate will be reduced by 15 to 45% as a result of acidification,” he said. These changes will have profound impacts on the health of coral reefs. By 2060, if present trends continue, “tropical corals will all be in a marginal state,” he said. “There is no evidence that corals will be able to adapt to these changed conditions.”

“Economic models of climate change typically assume that changes occur gradually and reversibly,” said Klaus Keller, assistant professor of geosciences at Pennsylvania State University. “Some environmental effects, however, show threshold responses. For a long time, very little happens, and then suddenly a large change occurs.” Three of these are widespread coral bleaching, collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, and collapse of oceanic circulation systems, he said.

A global temperature increase of just 1.5 °C over today’s average level could cause widespread and irreversible coral bleaching, Keller warned. This temperature increase is expected before 2100 unless strong near-term action is taken to reduce CO2 emissions, he added.


So we know facts from fiction.

adoucette
Hansen made a big splash in the PRESS with his "Smoking Gun" of Global warming last Feb.

Also note that the diagrams do NOT measure TEMPERATURE, they list only SIGNAL RESPONSE.

Do you not wonder why? I mean they SAY the colors represent temps, but they don't give a scale that is MARKED in temp. Nor do they say HOW they managed to get accurate readings of SST's for the last 40 years (tricky that)

So is it any surprise that nobody has heard much about said "smoking gun" since then?

laugh.gif laugh.gif


The Arctic Ocean is OFTEN Ice Free at the end of the Summer.

See the NY Times gaffe on this same issue a few years back.

As even the article points out:
QUOTE
fierce storms that fragmented and scattered already thin pack ice may be to blame,


As to the Met office and Hadley center, keep in mind that they are INFAMOUS for presenting distortions.

Do you NOT find it strange that they go on about having records for the last 350 years but then LIMIT their discussion to the LAST 50?

BEWARE WILL ROBINSON, DANGER.

Anytime someone wants to put ARTIFICIAL ENDPOINTS in the data series.

Like the recent Artic Assessment.

Or this latest Hadley report.

Or when someone slips something like this in to their argument:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
fierce storms that fragmented and scattered already thin pack ice may be to blame,


As to the Met office and Hadley center, keep in mind that they are INFAMOUS for presenting distortions.

Do you NOT find it strange that they go on about having records for the last 350 years but then LIMIT their discussion to the LAST 50?

BEWARE WILL ROBINSON, DANGER.

Anytime someone wants to put ARTIFICIAL ENDPOINTS in the data series.

Like the recent Artic Assessment.

Or this latest Hadley report.

Or when someone slips something like this in to their argument:

if the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere reaches 700 ppm—which is likely during this century


No, its NOT LIKELY.

Arthur

Markinosis
So now its James E. Hansen, chief of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies and adjunct professor of geological sciences at Columbia University who started at NASA more than 30 years ago, spending nearly all that time studying the earth as well as everyone else we've believed are the "safe hands" being the most respected and acknowledged leaders in scientific development and climate research like... NASA who you discredit, cast very serious and major aspersions on their reliability for impartial science, knowledge and expertize along with their "agendas" for mass research, technological advances and funding being devious - rite!

Maybe you should leave the bits out of our wavelength to those better at expertize, educated and balanced with all sides of the debate and findings.

Ralph Cicerone, president of the nation’s leading institute of science, the National Academy of Sciences.

"I can't think of anybody who I would say is better than Hansen. You might argue that there's two or three others as good, but nobody better," says Cicerone.

And Cicerone, who’s an atmospheric chemist, said the same thing every leading scientist told 60 Minutes.

"Climate change is really happening," says Cicerone.


Thats basically all of worldly and esp. American SCIENCE were talking about and you casting libels on their personalities, respect and integrity.

Your alone.

Just like I dont believe someone could have done a better job than NIST in post 9/11 I dont believe you or anyone lay can know whats better than ALL the WORLDS scientists put together here. Its just your opinion against theirs and credentials and expertise counts.

If you can refute them, heck publish a paper and then we can consider you informed and you'll definitely win the Nobel prize shocking everyone as well as lengthy accolades from the White House and ALL major business leaders and firms.

I don't think that'll happen anytime too soon.

QUOTE (adoucette+)
Hansen made a big splash in the PRESS with his "Smoking Gun" of Global warming last Feb.

So is it any surprise that nobody has heard much about said "smoking gun" since then?

Last Feb? He's been repeating this with evidence, for our sake since 1985 at least.
You not remember this:

"In 1988 Hansen made the greenhouse effect world news when he told a Senate committee, "The greenhouse effect has been detected, and it is changing our climate now.""

Where have you been? (unless your still a teenager)

Just like Richard Branson pledging to donate all his airline profits (£3Bn) to fight Global Warming. But no, your smarter than him I guess, £3Bn smarter.

You think so.

There is too much temperature related empirically accurate data and its been shown earlier in the thread many times.

Like here for instance:

user posted image
Figure 3. Seasonal temperature change over the past 50 years based on local linear trends.

Is this past your 60 years?

user posted image
Figure 1: (Above) Global annual surface temperature relative to 1951-1980 mean based on surface air measurements at meteorological stations and ship and satellite measurements for sea surface temperature. Error bars are estimated 2σ (95% confidence) uncertainty. (Below) Temperature anomaly for 2005 calendar year. Gray areas indicate a lack of station data within 1200km.

Here's Hansen from Jan 99:

Education Resource Materials

The Global Warming Debate
By James Hansen — January 1999


The only way to have real success in science ... is to describe the evidence very carefully without regard to the way you feel it should be. If you have a theory, you must try to explain what's good about it and what's bad about it equally. In science you learn a kind of standard integrity and honesty. — Richard Feynman

In my view, we are not doing as well as we could in the global warming debate. For one thing, we have failed to use the opportunity to help teach the public about how science research works. On the contrary, we often appear to the public to be advocates of fixed adversarial positions. Of course, we can try to blame this on the media and politicians, with their proclivities to focus on antagonistic extremes. But that doesn't really help.

The fun in science is to explore a topic from all angles and figure out how something works. To do this well, a scientist learns to be open-minded, ignoring prejudices that might be imposed by religious, political or other tendencies (Galileo being a model of excellence). Indeed, science thrives on repeated challenge of any interpretation, and there is even special pleasure in trying to find something wrong with well-accepted theory. Such challenges eventually strengthen our understanding of the subject, but it is a never-ending process as answers raise more questions to be pursued in order to further refine our knowledge.

Skepticism thus plays an essential role in scientific research, and, far from trying to silence skeptics, science invites their contributions. So too, the global warming debate benefits from traditional scientific skepticism.

I have argued in a recent book review that some "greenhouse skeptics" subvert the scientific process, ceasing to act as objective scientists, rather presenting only one side, as if they were lawyers hired to defend a particular viewpoint. But some of the topics focused on by the skeptics are recognized as legitimate research questions, and also it is fair to say that the injection of environmental, political and religious perspectives in midstream of the science research has occurred from both sides in the global warming debate.

So, what to do? Most scientists are willing to spend part of their time communicating with the public about how science works. And they should be: after all, the financial support for most research is provided ultimately by the public. But one quickly learns that such communication is not easy, at least not for many of us.

In late 1998, I was asked to debate the well-known greenhouse skeptic Dr. Patrick Michaels of the University of Virginia. I summarize here some key points in the debate, "A Public Debate on the Science of Global Warming", held at the New York Hilton, Nov. 20, 1998, and organized by the American Association for the Rhetoric of Science and Technology. A copy of my entire contribution may be downloaded as a PDF document (Note: This document is 597 kB and requires a special viewer such as the free Adobe Reader.).

I agreed to participate in this debate with Dr. Michaels after learning that he had used (or misused) a figure of mine in testimony to the United States Congress. The figure showed the first predictions made with a 3-D climate model and time-dependent climate forcings — it was a figure from a paper that we had published in the Journal of Geophysical Research in 1988 and it had been a principal basis for testimony that I gave to the United States Senate in 1988.

user posted image
Fig. 1: Climate model calculations reported in Hansen et al. (1988).

The figure that we published is reproduced here as Fig. 1. It shows the simulated global mean temperature for three climate forcing scenarios. Scenario A has a fast growth rate for greenhouse gases. Scenarios B and C have a moderate growth rate for greenhouse gases until year 2000, after which greenhouse gases stop increasing in Scenario C. Scenarios B and C also included occasional large volcanic eruptions, while scenario A did not. The objective was to illustrate the broad range of possibilities in the ignorance of how forcings would actually develop. The extreme scenarios (A with fast growth and no volcanos, and C with terminated growth of greenhouse gases) were meant to bracket plausible rates of change. All of the maps of simulated climate change that I showed in my 1988 testimony were for the intermediate scenario B, because it seemed the most likely of the three scenarios.

But when Pat Michaels testified to congress in 1998 and showed our 1988 predictions (Fig. 1) he erased the curves for scenarios B and C, and showed the result only for scenario A. He then argued that, since the real world temperature had not increased as fast as this model calculation, the climate model was faulty and there was no basis for concern about climate change, specifically concluding that the Kyoto Protocol was "a useless appendage to an irrelevant treaty".

Although scientists have a right to express personal opinions related to policy issues, it seems to me that we can be of more use by focusing on the science and carrying that out with rigorous objectivity. That approach seems to be essential for the success, as well as the "fun", of scientific research.

Fig. 1 is a good case in point. We now know (Hansen et al. 1998a, 1998b) that the growth rate of greenhouse gases in the period 1988-1998 has been flat, very similar to scenarios B and C (which are nearly the same until year 2000). Thus we can compare real world temperature changes in the past decade (filled circles in Fig. 1) with model calculations for the B-C scenarios. Taking account of the fact that the real world volcano occurred in 1991, rather than 1995 as assumed in the model, it is apparent that the model did a good job of predicting global temperature change. But the period of comparison is too short and the climate change too small compared to natural variability for the comparison to provide a meaningful check on the model's sensitivity to climate forcings. With data from another decade we will be able to make a much clearer evaluation of the model.

Table 1. Key Differences with (the few) Skeptics
QUOTE

1. Observed global warming: real or measurement problem?

Hansen: global warming is 0.5-0.75°C in past century, at least ~0.3°C in past 25 years.
Lindzen: since about 1850 "...more likely ... 0.1±0.3°C" (MIT Tech Talk, 34, #7, 1989).

2. Climate sensitivity (equilibrium response to 2×CO2)

Lindzen: ~< 1°c Hansen: 3±1°C

Comments: paleoclimate data, improved climate models, and process studies may narrow uncertainties; observed climate change on decadal time scales will provide constraint if climate forcings are measured; implicit information on climate sensitivity can be extracted from observed changes in ocean heat storage.

3. Water vapor feedback

Lindzen: negative, upper tropospheric water vapor decreases with global warming.
Hansen: positive, upper and lower tropospheric water vapor increase with global warming.

References: (these include references by Lindzen stating that, in response to global warming, water vapor will decrease at altitudes above 2-3 km).

Comment: accurate observations of interannual changes (several years) and long-term changes (1-2 decades) of upper tropospheric water vapor could provide defining data.

4. CO2 contribution to the ~33°C natural greenhouse effect

Lindzen: "Even if all other greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide and methane) were to disappear, we would still be left with over 98 percent of the current greenhouse effect." Cato Review, Spring issue, 87-98, 1992; "If all CO2 were removed from the atmosphere, water vapor and clouds would still provide almost all of the present greenhouse effect." Res. Explor. 9, 191-200, 1993.

Lacis and Hansen: removing CO2, with water vapor kept fixed, would cool the Earth 5-10°C; removing CO2 and trace gases with water vapor allowed to respond would remove most of the natural greenhouse effect.

5. When will global warming and climate change be obvious?

Lindzen: I personally feel that the likelihood over the next century of greenhouse warming reaching magnitudes comparable to natural variability remains small.

Hansen: "With the climatological probability of a hot summer represented by two faces (say painted red) of a six-faced die, judging from our model by the 1990s three or four of the six die faces will be red. It seems to us that this is a sufficient 'loading' of the dice that it will be noticeable to the man in the street." J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364, 1988.

6. Planetary disequilibrium

Hansen: Earth is out of radiative equilibrium with space by at least approximately 0.5 W/m2 (absorbing more energy than it emits).

Comments: This is the most fundamental measure of the state of the greenhouse effect. Because the disequilibrium is a product of the long response time of the climate system, which in turn is a strong function of climate sensitivity, confirmation of the disequilibrium provides information on climate sensitivity and an indication of how much additional global warming is "in the pipeline" due to gases already added to the atmosphere.

This disequilibrium could be measured as the sum of the rate of heat storage in the ocean plus the net energy going into the melting of ice. Existing technology, including very precise measurements of ocean and ice sheet topography, could provide this information.


As the opinions in the global warming debate do not seem to be converging, it seems to me that one useful thing that can be done is to clearly delineate the fundamental differences. Then, as our scientific understanding advances over the next several years, we can achieve more convincing evaluations of the global warming issue. (Stated less generously, this is a way to pin down those who keep changing their arguments.)

Table 1 summarizes chief differences that I delineated for the sake of a discussion with Richard Lindzen, who has provided the intellectual underpinnings for the greenhouse skeptics, in October 1998. I also used this list (Table 1) as the principal fodder for my "affirmative closing argument" in the debate with Pat Michaels.

Differences 1 (reality of global warming) and 2 (climate sensitivity) are very fundamental. From my perspective, strong evidence is already accumulating that weighs heavily against the skeptics contentions that there is no significant global warming and that climate sensitivity is low. These issues will become even clearer over the next several years.

Difference 3 (water vapor feedback) is related to climate sensitivity, but is so fundamental that it deserves specific attention. The topic has resisted definitive empirical evaluation, because of the poor state of water vapor measurements and the fact that tropospheric temperature change has been small in the past 20 years. Ozone depletion, which affects upper tropospheric temperatures, has also complicated this problem. This situation will change if, as I would anticipate, ozone depletion flattens and global temperature continues to rise.

Difference 4 has an academic flavor, and is perhaps not worth special efforts. But it illustrates a lack of understanding of the basic greenhouse mechanism by Lindzen.

Difference 5 is fundamental because substantial efforts to curb global warming may require that climate change first be apparent to people. If our assessments are right, we are in fact on the verge of warming being noticeable to the perceptive person-in-the-street. (See related material Global Temperature Trends: 1998 summation and the Commen Sense Climate Index.)

Difference 6, concerning the planetary "disequilibrium" (imbalance between incoming and outgoing radiation) is the most fundamental measure of the state of the anthropogenic greenhouse effect. The disequilibrium should exist if climate sensitivity is as high (and thus the ocean thermal response time so long) as we estimate, and if increasing greenhouse gases are the dominant climate forcing mechanism. We have presented evidence (Hansen et al. 1997) of a disequilibrium of at least 0.5 W/m2. This imbalance is the basis by which we could predict that record global temperatures would occur within a few years, that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s, and that the first decade of next century will be warmer than the 1990s, despite the existence of natural climate variability. I do not know of a reference where Lindzen specifically addresses planetary radiation imbalance, but his positions regarding climate sensitivity and the ocean response time clearly imply a smaller, negligible imbalance.

The important point is that the planetary radiation imbalance is measurable, via the ocean temperature, because the only place this excess energy can go is into the ocean and, probably to a less extent, into the melting of ice. If our estimates are approximately right, this heat storage should not escape detection during the next several years.

In summary, all of these issues are ones that the scientific community potentially can make progress on in the near future, if they receive appropriate attention. The real global warming debate, in the sense of traditional science, can be resolved to a large extent in a reasonable time.

--------------

Something else to see:
Hansen, J., I. Fung, A. Lacis, D. Rind, S. Lebedeff, R. Ruedy, G. Russell, and P. Stone 1988. Global climate changes as forecast by Goddard Institute for Space Studies three-dimensional model. J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364.
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1988/Hansen_etal.html

Obviously I see no sign of those that used to argue (for whatever political purpose) partially against the generally accepted and thoroughly reliable scientific experts of the world since the onset of this year and its magnificent findings and compelling data. They could only argue on one leg behind the curtain due to their being a weakness in our then current ability and records to provide empirical evidence we now have and are definitely acquiring daily - much more to support all our contentions and previous analysis based on the most scrupulous research techniques. Scientists accepting and realizing GW were right in EVERY piece of evidence and analysis.
I wonder what research evidence they the few skeptics can present against every one of these daily positively assuring research results we produce. I must admit, none whatsoever so far.

It boils down to what we know rather than what we don't. As far as its cautiously predicted by the year 2050-only as far in the future, after all, as 1950 is in the past-the global temperature could be 3 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is now. It has not been that hot for 400,000 years, a time well before modern humans evolved. By 2075 a 5-degree jump would make the planet its hottest in 4 million years, and by the end of the coming century the earth could be as hot as it was 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs disappeared.

Rapid heating on this scale will change the very face of the planet and cause chaos for the global environment, the economy, and politics. Glaciers will melt, and as seas heat and expand, the ocean will rise, drowning low-lying island nations and coastlines. Say sayonara to the Maldives, the Pacific atolls, Bangladesh, the Nile River delta, and much of the East and Gulf coasts of the United States. Tens of millions of people will be forced to move, and move again, in a kind of endless caravan, bearing conflict and disease. Adapted to specific climate zones, plants and animals will be hard pressed to move north; climate zones could shift 400 miles north by the end of the next century-far faster than trees and other plants spread after the retreat of the last glacier-and many species will become extinct. Old forests will burn, farmland will succumb to drought, and floods will increase.

As Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, warned in the late 1980s, "Earth's climate does not respond in a smooth and gradual way; rather, it responds in sharp jumps

It can all be broken down to this in simple language:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

1. Observed global warming: real or measurement problem?

Hansen: global warming is 0.5-0.75°C in past century, at least ~0.3°C in past 25 years.
Lindzen: since about 1850 "...more likely ... 0.1±0.3°C" (MIT Tech Talk, 34, #7, 1989).

2. Climate sensitivity (equilibrium response to 2×CO2)

Lindzen: ~< 1°c Hansen: 3±1°C

Comments: paleoclimate data, improved climate models, and process studies may narrow uncertainties; observed climate change on decadal time scales will provide constraint if climate forcings are measured; implicit information on climate sensitivity can be extracted from observed changes in ocean heat storage.

3. Water vapor feedback

Lindzen: negative, upper tropospheric water vapor decreases with global warming.
Hansen: positive, upper and lower tropospheric water vapor increase with global warming.

References: (these include references by Lindzen stating that, in response to global warming, water vapor will decrease at altitudes above 2-3 km).

Comment: accurate observations of interannual changes (several years) and long-term changes (1-2 decades) of upper tropospheric water vapor could provide defining data.

4. CO2 contribution to the ~33°C natural greenhouse effect

Lindzen: "Even if all other greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide and methane) were to disappear, we would still be left with over 98 percent of the current greenhouse effect." Cato Review, Spring issue, 87-98, 1992; "If all CO2 were removed from the atmosphere, water vapor and clouds would still provide almost all of the present greenhouse effect." Res. Explor. 9, 191-200, 1993.

Lacis and Hansen: removing CO2, with water vapor kept fixed, would cool the Earth 5-10°C; removing CO2 and trace gases with water vapor allowed to respond would remove most of the natural greenhouse effect.

5. When will global warming and climate change be obvious?

Lindzen: I personally feel that the likelihood over the next century of greenhouse warming reaching magnitudes comparable to natural variability remains small.

Hansen: "With the climatological probability of a hot summer represented by two faces (say painted red) of a six-faced die, judging from our model by the 1990s three or four of the six die faces will be red. It seems to us that this is a sufficient 'loading' of the dice that it will be noticeable to the man in the street." J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364, 1988.

6. Planetary disequilibrium

Hansen: Earth is out of radiative equilibrium with space by at least approximately 0.5 W/m2 (absorbing more energy than it emits).

Comments: This is the most fundamental measure of the state of the greenhouse effect. Because the disequilibrium is a product of the long response time of the climate system, which in turn is a strong function of climate sensitivity, confirmation of the disequilibrium provides information on climate sensitivity and an indication of how much additional global warming is "in the pipeline" due to gases already added to the atmosphere.

This disequilibrium could be measured as the sum of the rate of heat storage in the ocean plus the net energy going into the melting of ice. Existing technology, including very precise measurements of ocean and ice sheet topography, could provide this information.


As the opinions in the global warming debate do not seem to be converging, it seems to me that one useful thing that can be done is to clearly delineate the fundamental differences. Then, as our scientific understanding advances over the next several years, we can achieve more convincing evaluations of the global warming issue. (Stated less generously, this is a way to pin down those who keep changing their arguments.)

Table 1 summarizes chief differences that I delineated for the sake of a discussion with Richard Lindzen, who has provided the intellectual underpinnings for the greenhouse skeptics, in October 1998. I also used this list (Table 1) as the principal fodder for my "affirmative closing argument" in the debate with Pat Michaels.

Differences 1 (reality of global warming) and 2 (climate sensitivity) are very fundamental. From my perspective, strong evidence is already accumulating that weighs heavily against the skeptics contentions that there is no significant global warming and that climate sensitivity is low. These issues will become even clearer over the next several years.

Difference 3 (water vapor feedback) is related to climate sensitivity, but is so fundamental that it deserves specific attention. The topic has resisted definitive empirical evaluation, because of the poor state of water vapor measurements and the fact that tropospheric temperature change has been small in the past 20 years. Ozone depletion, which affects upper tropospheric temperatures, has also complicated this problem. This situation will change if, as I would anticipate, ozone depletion flattens and global temperature continues to rise.

Difference 4 has an academic flavor, and is perhaps not worth special efforts. But it illustrates a lack of understanding of the basic greenhouse mechanism by Lindzen.

Difference 5 is fundamental because substantial efforts to curb global warming may require that climate change first be apparent to people. If our assessments are right, we are in fact on the verge of warming being noticeable to the perceptive person-in-the-street. (See related material Global Temperature Trends: 1998 summation and the Commen Sense Climate Index.)

Difference 6, concerning the planetary "disequilibrium" (imbalance between incoming and outgoing radiation) is the most fundamental measure of the state of the anthropogenic greenhouse effect. The disequilibrium should exist if climate sensitivity is as high (and thus the ocean thermal response time so long) as we estimate, and if increasing greenhouse gases are the dominant climate forcing mechanism. We have presented evidence (Hansen et al. 1997) of a disequilibrium of at least 0.5 W/m2. This imbalance is the basis by which we could predict that record global temperatures would occur within a few years, that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s, and that the first decade of next century will be warmer than the 1990s, despite the existence of natural climate variability. I do not know of a reference where Lindzen specifically addresses planetary radiation imbalance, but his positions regarding climate sensitivity and the ocean response time clearly imply a smaller, negligible imbalance.

The important point is that the planetary radiation imbalance is measurable, via the ocean temperature, because the only place this excess energy can go is into the ocean and, probably to a less extent, into the melting of ice. If our estimates are approximately right, this heat storage should not escape detection during the next several years.

In summary, all of these issues are ones that the scientific community potentially can make progress on in the near future, if they receive appropriate attention. The real global warming debate, in the sense of traditional science, can be resolved to a large extent in a reasonable time.

--------------

Something else to see:
Hansen, J., I. Fung, A. Lacis, D. Rind, S. Lebedeff, R. Ruedy, G. Russell, and P. Stone 1988. Global climate changes as forecast by Goddard Institute for Space Studies three-dimensional model. J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364.
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1988/Hansen_etal.html

Obviously I see no sign of those that used to argue (for whatever political purpose) partially against the generally accepted and thoroughly reliable scientific experts of the world since the onset of this year and its magnificent findings and compelling data. They could only argue on one leg behind the curtain due to their being a weakness in our then current ability and records to provide empirical evidence we now have and are definitely acquiring daily - much more to support all our contentions and previous analysis based on the most scrupulous research techniques. Scientists accepting and realizing GW were right in EVERY piece of evidence and analysis.
I wonder what research evidence they the few skeptics can present against every one of these daily positively assuring research results we produce. I must admit, none whatsoever so far.

It boils down to what we know rather than what we don't. As far as its cautiously predicted by the year 2050-only as far in the future, after all, as 1950 is in the past-the global temperature could be 3 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is now. It has not been that hot for 400,000 years, a time well before modern humans evolved. By 2075 a 5-degree jump would make the planet its hottest in 4 million years, and by the end of the coming century the earth could be as hot as it was 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs disappeared.

Rapid heating on this scale will change the very face of the planet and cause chaos for the global environment, the economy, and politics. Glaciers will melt, and as seas heat and expand, the ocean will rise, drowning low-lying island nations and coastlines. Say sayonara to the Maldives, the Pacific atolls, Bangladesh, the Nile River delta, and much of the East and Gulf coasts of the United States. Tens of millions of people will be forced to move, and move again, in a kind of endless caravan, bearing conflict and disease. Adapted to specific climate zones, plants and animals will be hard pressed to move north; climate zones could shift 400 miles north by the end of the next century-far faster than trees and other plants spread after the retreat of the last glacier-and many species will become extinct. Old forests will burn, farmland will succumb to drought, and floods will increase.

As Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, warned in the late 1980s, "Earth's climate does not respond in a smooth and gradual way; rather, it responds in sharp jumps

It can all be broken down to this in simple language:
* CO2 and other greenhouse gasses act as a kind of planetary thermostat, and our current CO2 level is higher than at any time at least the last 400,000 years—and rising. This means that the Earth's planetary thermostat is stuck in the "on" position. Given these facts, we'd expect temperatures on Earth to be rising, and this is precisely what is happening now. And that is what global warming is all about.
* Over the past 100 years, the average temperature on Earth has risen by over a full degree Fahrenheit. 1 degree might not sound like much but keep in mind the Earth's average temperature had been 57 degrees. If your body temperature was raised by the same proportion, you would have a temperature of over 100 degrees. The Earth is sick with a fever.
* Science tells us that global warming is very real and is getting worse:
    * The 1980's were the hottest decade on record...until the 1990's.
    * The 1990's were the warmest decade in at least 1,000 years.
    * 2003 was the 2nd hottest year ever recorded.
    * The five hottest years on record all have occurred since 1997, and the 10 hottest since 1990.
    * The planet is now warming faster than at any time in the last 10,000 years....and the rate of change is accelerating.

Worldwide Deglaciation:

* Glaciers are receding increasingly rapidly worldwide. Many glaciers are now melting 10 times more quickly than a decade ago.
* Hemingway's "Snows of Kilimanjaro" will be gone within less than 15 years.
* The United Nations Environmental Program reports that Himalayan glaciers are retreating faster than anywhere on earth.
* The Khumbu Glacier has retreated 5 kilometers since Sir Edmund Hillary made the first ascent of Mt. Everest in 1950.
* The U.N. estimates that Himalayan glaciers may be completely gone within 35 years.
* The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates that 1/3 to 1/2 of all glaciers on earth will have disappeared completely by the end of this century.

Rising CO2 Levels & The Enhanced Greenhouse Effect:

* Largely due to the burning of fossil fuels, we are releasing an excessive amount of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere and the Earth's temperature is rising in proportion to the increased concentrations of CO2. The Earth's temperature is going up, and this simple fact is having a profound impact on our global climate.
* CO2 and other greenhouse gasses acts as a kind of planetary thermostat, Our current CO2 level is the higher than at any time in the last 400,000 years—and rising —it means that the Earth's planetary thermostat is stuck in the "on" position. Given these facts, we'd expect temperatures on Earth to be rising, and this is precisely what is happening now. And that is what global warming is all about.
* Every year of the 1990's was among the top 15 warmest years ever recorded. And temperatures continue to climb.
* 2002 was the 2 nd hottest year ever recorded, and temperatures continue to rise.

To cite a few troubling statistics:

    * The 1980s were the warmest decade on record....until the 1990's
    * The 1990s were the hottest decade in the past 1000 years
    * The planet is now warming faster than at any time in the last 10,000 years....and the rate of change is accelerating.

Anarctic Warming:

* Near the Earth's South Pole, temperatures on the Antarctic peninsula have risen 5 degrees Fahrenheit over the past 50 years. Rocks that used to be covered with 600 meters of ice for 20,000 years now poke through the peninsula surface.
* The late 1990's witnessed the complete collapse of the Larsen A ice shelf—an area larger than the state of Rhode Island . The trend appears to be accelerating, in the summer of 2002, scientists were staggered by the size and speed of the collapse of the 12,000-year-old Larsen B ice shelf. This 3,250 square kilometer shelf—containing 700 billion tons of ice—disintegrated in just 35 days.
* Over the past 50 years, Six of the nine Antarctic peninsula 's ice shelves have disintegrated.

Warmer Oceans, Less Plankton & Ecosystem Collapse:

* Warmer temperatures threaten the ocean's phytoplankton. Microscopic phytoplankton is the base of the oceanic food chain. Less phytoplankton means less food for other species, and a loss of plankton invariably means fewer fish and sea birds.
* A 2002 NASA satellite study reveals that, because of warmer temperatures, phytoplankton levels have plummeted worldwide. The greatest declines are in the Northern Pacific Ocean where summer plankton levels have dropped 30% since the 1980s. The loss of plankton due to warmer temperatures creates a domino effect that can destroy whole ecosystems.
* The entire 900 mile Aleutian island ecosystem appears to be collapsing as a loss of plankton has created a domino effect leading to a decline in the sea lion population, causing orca whales to consume an excessive number of sea otters, which led to an explosion in the sea urchin population, causing a loss of kelp beds along with the fish populations that had lived there. With the loss of plankton, the ecosystem's entire food chain had completely unraveled. As recently as the 1980s, over 100,000 otters inhabited these islands. Today there are only about 6,000 remaining. Between 1992 and 2000, the Aleutian Island otter population dropped 70%, a rate of decline that is unprecedented for any mammal population anywhere—a rate of decline that other mammals might be wise to ponder.
* While the Aleutian Islands may be geographically isolated, there is nothing isolated about the island chains' devastating experience with global warming. Another 2002 satellite study reveals that Southern Californian zooplankton had dropped 70% since the 1970s. The catastrophic results to Southern California 's oceanic ecosystem are sadly predictable.
* To make matters worse, through photosynthesis, plankton removes as much carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as do the Earth's forests. Less phytoplankton in the oceans means more heat-trapping carbon remains in the atmosphere. The failing brakes on global warming just got that much worse.

On that warmer planet, ice sheets would melt quickly, causing a rise in sea levels that would put most of Manhattan under water. The world would see more prolonged droughts and heat waves, powerful hurricanes in new areas and the likely extinction of 50 percent of species.


Matters I've previously covered in this thread fully with proof.

Heres the REAL reason for your diatribe and accusations against any and no doubt most scientists, institutions and especially Hansen.

HANSEN CLASHED WITH THE WHITE HOUSE
Hansen, who heads NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, has made waves before by saying that President Bush’s administration tried to silence him and heavily edited his and other scientists’ findings on a warmer world.

He reiterated that the United States “has passed up the opportunity” to influence the world on global warming.

The United States is the largest emitter of greenhouse gases, most notably carbon dioxide. But Bush pulled the country out of the 160-nation Kyoto Protocol in 2001, arguing that the treaty’s mandatory curbs on emissions would harm the economy.

Hansen is arguably the world's leading researcher on global warming. He's the head of NASA's top institute studying the climate. But as correspondent Scott Pelley first reported last spring, this imminent scientist says that the Bush administration is restricting who he can talk to and editing what he can say. Politicians, he says, are rewriting the science.

"In my more than three decades in the government I've never witnessed such restrictions on the ability of scientists to communicate with the public," says Hansen.

Restrictions like an e-mail Hansen's institute received from NASA in 2004. "… there is a new review process … ," the e-mail read. "The White House (is) now reviewing all climate related press releases," it continued.


Usually as you can see these sort of people who have any proof will hold back and be forced to by whatever means. Thats politics and agendas for ya if you couldn't already notice.

We try to keep politics out of science but a small bunch just don't seem to because they feel economy means welfare for them. Oh and obviously they will strap themselves onto this line because "they" will possibly have too much stash buried away to enable them to survive perfectly till they die and in their world only they count - and their businesses.

Rosy world filled with teletubbies but we and certainly as the articles say, the WORLD doesn't buy pres. Bush's' words no more.

Against the earnest, impartial, devoted and +25year professional experts.

I'll repeat what Hansen, Americas biggest expert on this said:
“This is not something that is a theory. We understand the carbon cycle well enough to say that"
adoucette
I'm WELL aquainted with Hansen.

So are Theresa and John Kerry and Al Gore.

In endorsing Kerry's presidential bid late in the 2004 campaign, Hansen conceded that it could harm his reputation. "Dr. Hansen, 63, acknowledged that he imperiled his credibility and perhaps his job by criticizing Mr. Bush's policies in the final days of a tight presidential campaign." according to the Oct. 26, 2004, edition of the New York Times.

In a speech delivered on that same day, Hansen praised the Massachusetts senator, declaring that "John Kerry has a far better grasp than President Bush on the important issues that we face."

Three years earlier, Hansen had accepted the $250,000 Heinz Award granted by the foundation run by Kerry's wife Teresa. But the same day Hansen publicly endorsed Sen. John Kerry's presidential candidacy in 2004, the New York Times quoted Hansen as saying that the grant from the Heinz Foundation had had "no impact on my evaluation of the climate problem or on my political leanings."



And if you look at those global maps you will find that the MAJORITY of the warming is in the ARCTIC in WINTER.

Which means, as I said, its NOT Global Warming, its ARCTIC WARMING, which is QUITE a different thing.

Arthur



lengould
QUOTE (Arthur+)
Which means, as I said, its NOT Global Warming, its ARCTIC WARMING, which is QUITE a different thing.


???

So in your evaluation, parts of the earth above +- 66.33 deg are left out of the calculations?
Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 2 2006, 12:18 AM)
The village in question.

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/human-shishmaref.shtml

Its OBVIOUS that NO LAND can stand forever against the rising sea.

It might help to mention that the sea has been rising for ~18,000 years

It might help to mention that the rate of sea rise is not accelerating.

Oh, but THAT would ruin a good STORY.

Arthur

The north po9lar ice cap is mealting at an alarming rate. The sea level rise has had a small effect, but it caued the flood waters in New oreans to be much worse than expected. That city is dead as result of greenhouse warming. Scientists expect Europe to be plunged into a little ice age when the gulf stream shifts as a result of current chnages induced by flows fro0m the meling ice cap. What is your opinion?
Markinosis
By the year 2050-only as far in the future, after all, as 1950 is in the past-the global temperature could be 3 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is now. It has not been that hot for 400,000 years, a time well before modern humans evolved. By 2075 a 5-degree jump would make the planet its hottest in 4 million years, and by the end of the coming century the earth could be as hot as it was 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs disappeared.

Rapid heating on this scale will change the very face of the planet and cause chaos for the global environment, the economy, and politics. Glaciers will melt, and as seas heat and expand, the ocean will rise, drowning low-lying island nations and coastlines. Say sayonara to the Maldives, Manhattan, the Pacific atolls, Bangladesh, the Nile River delta, and much of the East and Gulf coasts of the United States. Tens of millions of people will be forced to move, and move again, in a kind of endless caravan, bearing conflict and disease. Adapted to specific climate zones, plants and animals will be hard pressed to move north; climate zones could shift 400 miles north by the end of the next century-far faster than trees and other plants spread after the retreat of the last glacier-and many species will become extinct. Old forests will burn, farmland will succumb to drought, and floods will increase.

QUOTE (adoucette+)
I'm WELL aquainted with Hansen.

So are Theresa and John Kerry and Al Gore.


Then you would know that hes been saying this for OVER two decades!

And if he did take up some offer so to prove himself and alarm the international community in ways they understand, so what?
Thats the conventional way everything goes through.

What you leave out from Hansens profile is this:

Old but relevant - November-December 1999

In 1988 Hansen made the greenhouse effect world news when he told a Senate committee, "The greenhouse effect has been detected, and it is changing our climate now." In the uproar that followed, Hansen got tremendous, well, heat from industry, anti-enviro talk show hosts, and politicians, as well as from many fellow scientists. But not only was Hansen right then, he has been right so many times since that he has assumed a prophetic stature rare in history. Michael Oppenheimer, chief scientist for the Environmental Defense Fund and an author of a major United Nations report on climate change, says of Hansen's work, "His science is impeccable, and his prescience is unparalleled." In other words, Nostradamus, get lost.

First proposed more than 100 years ago, the greenhouse effect theory postulates that manmade emissions of carbon dioxide and other trace gases act like glass in a greenhouse surrounding the earth. (The term greenhouse effect is really a misnomer; the carbon dioxide and water vapor naturally present in the atmosphere already function like greenhouse glass. In popular usage, greenhouse effect refers to the problem that comes with adding manmade gases.)

Essential to life, carbon is found in everything alive or that ever lived. In 1800, before the Industrial Revolution began in earnest, the atmosphere naturally contained 280 parts per million (ppm) of carbon dioxide. Then, with the eventual large-scale burning of coal, oil, and gas-literally fossil fuels, the entombed remains of plants and animals that lived millions of years ago-atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide accelerated. Ice-core samples from 1910 show that the atmosphere contained 295 ppm of carbon dioxide, and in 1958, when C. Douglas Keeling of the Scripps Institute of Oceanography began his landmark annual measurements at Hawaii's Mauna Loa Observatory, the reading was 315 ppm. By 1998 the reading had climbed to 365 ppm.

Hansen: With a scholarship and money saved from his paper route, he went to the University of Iowa, graduating with distinction in 1963 after majoring in math and physics "because that's what I could do well." He went on to get a master's degree in astronomy in the physics department. "It was a very stimulating research environment," he says. The department even had its own satellite, and the chairman was James Van Allen, the discoverer of the radiation belts around the earth that bear his name. In 1967 Hansen got his Ph.D. with a dissertation on the atmosphere of Venus, which he wrote while serving as a graduate assistant at the Institute for Astrophysics in Kyoto and in the astronomy department at the University of Tokyo.

After earning his doctorate, Hansen received a job offer from the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) and was so excited that he immediately drove to New York without sleeping. Except for one year, 1969-70, spent at the Leiden Observatory in the Netherlands, where he met his wife, Anniek, he has been at Goddard ever since. In 1976 he was happily working as the principal investigator on the Pioneer Venus Orbiter experiment when a Harvard postdoctoral researcher asked his help in calculating the greenhouse effect of manmade gases in the earth's atmosphere. "It didn't take long until I was captivated by this greenhouse problem," Hansen says. He resigned from the Venus project to work on the earth, "because I thought it was even more exciting to study a planetary atmosphere that was changing-scientifically exciting and also of practical importance."

Hansen says the contrasting atmospheres on Venus and Mars "provided the best proof at the time of the reality of the greenhouse effect [on the earth]. Mars, which has only a thin atmosphere of greenhouse gases, is only a few degrees warmer than it would be if it had no atmosphere. Venus, on the other extreme, has a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and such a strong greenhouse effect that you could bake pizza on its surface. In fact, the pizza would burn, because the temperature is about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. The earth has an intermediate amount of greenhouse gases, which keeps the surface a comfortable 60 degrees warmer than it would be without these gases. For each of these planets, the amount of warming is in good agreement with what we calculate for the greenhouse effect."

Hansen put together a team to build the GISS 1-D (one-dimensional) computer climate model, later superseded by a 3-D model. A climate model, designed to simulate the earth's climate, is a set of equations with numerical values allotted to such processes as absorption of solar energy, radiation of heat energy, ocean currents, and transfer of heat and moisture by winds.

Greenhouse skeptics, including critics ideologically hostile to the very concept of global warming, question the validity of models. "Sometimes the media, and global-warming critics, leave the impression that predictions of climate change are based mainly on such models, but that conclusion is naive and misleading," Hansen says. "In reality, expectations of climate change are based on an understanding of the climate system, which derives mainly from observational data. Climate models are just one of our tools."

In 1981 hansen, newly named chief of the Goddard Institute for Spaces Studies, and seven colleagues published a paper in Science in which they predicted, "The combined warming of carbon dioxide and trace gases should exceed natural temperature variability in the 1980s and cause the mean global temperature to rise above the maximum of the late 1930s." This ran counter to the scientific wisdom of the time; climatologists generally believed that the earth, which had been cooling since 1940, would continue to do so. But the GISS team's prediction would prove correct: Global cooling not only stopped, but the decade of the 1980s was the hottest ever recorded up to that time.


The New York Times ran a front-page story about the GISS study, and along with The Washington Post used it in a lead editorial about U.S. energy policy, then heavily committed to the greater use of coal and other carbon-based fuels. The Times stated, "The greenhouse effect is too uncertain to warrant total alteration of energy policy. But this latest study offers fair warning; that such a change may yet be required is no longer unimaginable."

In the first of the "don't listen to the message, shoot the messenger"(hint: Arthur) reactions that Hansen was to experience, angry officials in the Department of Energy reneged on their promise to add to the GISS research budget and also warned an independent researcher that he would lose funding if he used results from the GISS model. Hansen had to cut both staff and research until he was able to scrounge money from the Environmental Protection Agency a year later.

As a result of the 1981 study, Rafe Pomerance, who was then president of the group Friends of the Earth, arranged for Hansen to testify about the greenhouse effect at congressional hearings during the late 1980s. Although Pomerance was "never the person in the news," Hansen says, "he is the one who deserves most of the credit-if you consider the results positive-for the attention generated."

Even so, the greenhouse effect did not generate all that much attention until 1988, and then only after Hansen told Pomerance that he was opposed to testifying in November because the weather was too cool to get public attention. "Moreover, I had decided to testify as a private citizen in 1987 because I could not agree with all the changes which the Office of Management and Budget had instructed me to include in my testimony," Hansen says. "That sort of bickering with management takes a lot of psychic energy, because it's hard to say what damage it causes to our research and institutional support."

On June 23, 1988, with the temperature reaching a record 101 degrees in Washington, D.C., and much of the country suffering from a searing drought, Hansen made three main points to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources: "First, that the world was getting warmer on decadal time scales, which I said could be stated with 99 percent confidence. Second, that with a high degree of confidence I believed there was a causal relationship with an increased greenhouse effect. And third, that in our climate model there was a tendency for an increase in the frequency and the severity of heat waves and droughts with global warming."
Besieged by the media afterward, he said, "It's time to stop waffling so much and say that the greenhouse effect is here and affecting our climate now." Suddenly global warming-and Hansen-became world news.

Science intruded and altered by POLITICS: The Bush White House complained to NASA. Also, many scientists, even some who privately agreed with Hansen, accused him of stretching the facts. Science ran an article called "Hansen vs. the World on the Greenhouse Threat," and the business magazine Barron's quoted the climatologist Reid Bryson of the University of Wisconsin as calling Hansen's testimony a "phenomenal snow job"-an odd metaphor given that the subject was global warming. Faced with this criticism and serious personal problems (his father died, and his wife had breast cancer, though she survived), Hansen did not back down. Scientifically, he was again ahead of his time-by seven years, in this case. In 1995 the hundreds of scientists on the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change concluded that "the balance of evidence suggests that there is a discernible human influence on global climate."

When Hansen went to testify again in 1989, an official in the White House Office of Management and Budget changed his testimony so as to negate the conclusion that global warming would cause the hydrologic cycle to intensify, resulting in periods of excessive precipitation and severe drought. The upshot: a rerun of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, with Hansen, in the role of Jimmy Stewart, protesting publicly, and Senator Al Gore lambasting the Bush administration for "science by fraud."
An editorial cartoon in The Des Moines Register showed President George Bush muffling Hansen's mouth with a handkerchief that was labeled "The Whitehouse Effect," and a Seattle Post-Intelligencer cartoon compared an official in the Office of Management and Budget to an inquisitor of Galileo.

The year 1990 set a new record for the global temperature, and a year later, when Mount Pinatubo, the Philippine volcano, erupted, it gave Hansen the opportunity to make "a nice check on climate models" for skeptics. The eruption, the greatest in this century, injected 20 megatons of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, where winds formed it into a global blanket of fine sulfuric-acid droplets. Accordingly, Hansen predicted that the global temperature would cool temporarily before the aerosols returned to the earth. He was right again, and in 1995 the rewarming earth had a higher annual record temperature than it had had in 1990.

Regarding the heat and drought that plagued much of the United States this past summer-last July was the hottest on record-Hansen says, "Droughts and heat waves have a high degree of natural fluctuation, so you can't blame a given cause for a particular drought, and that's what I said in 1988. But the frequency is likely to increase with global warming. Whether it's a modest increase or a large change, like back in the 1930s, or more extreme than that, is hard to say until we can exactly understand these patterns."

Hansen notes that most previous annual global record temperatures were only a few hundredths of a degree warmer than the previous record, "but in 1998 the temperature was three-tenths of a degree warmer." He adds, "It has become very difficult for anyone to argue that observed global warming is natural variability. We have good reason for being able to say that the world will be warmer by about a quarter of a degree in the next decade. It's the same reason we had 10 years ago when we said that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s: The planet is out of equilibrium."



The ONLY thing you prove is that the government is CORRUPT here and is NEVER to be believed against the word of professional expert scientists who have the utmost honour. Like Hansen UNLIKE his few opponents.


QUOTE
A 20-inch rise in sea level, predicted by 2100, could inundate 5,000 square miles of dry land and drown 15 to 60 percent of our (US) coastal wetlands. Most regions would have a net loss of wetlands (wetlands gained are subtracted from wetlands lost), the anomaly being the West Coast. If no action is taken, Louisiana could lose as much as 3,500 square miles of dry and wet land. By some estimates, a one-foot rise in sea level along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts is likely by 2050 and could even occur by 2025. A two-foot rise is likely in the next century, and a four-foot rise is possible.

Source: Environmental Protection Agency

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A 20-inch rise in sea level, predicted by 2100, could inundate 5,000 square miles of dry land and drown 15 to 60 percent of our (US) coastal wetlands. Most regions would have a net loss of wetlands (wetlands gained are subtracted from wetlands lost), the anomaly being the West Coast. If no action is taken, Louisiana could lose as much as 3,500 square miles of dry and wet land. By some estimates, a one-foot rise in sea level along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts is likely by 2050 and could even occur by 2025. A two-foot rise is likely in the next century, and a four-foot rise is possible.

Source: Environmental Protection Agency

The sum and substance of "Hot Nights in the City," a report on the impact that global warming could have on the New York metropolitan region. Commissioned by the Environmental Defense Fund and carried out by the Center for Climate Systems Research at Columbia University, the report was published last June.

Although the report is cautious about predicting the future, it says that two basic consequences are "probably inevitable" in the region: more warming and a further increase in sea level. For New York City itself, the report projects temperature increases of more than 4 degrees Fahrenheit for the 2050s and 6 to 10 degrees for the 2090s. As early as the 2010s, the average number of days that top 90 degrees in the city is projected to more than double, from 13 a year to 27 a year. By 2050 the city could swelter through 47 days of 90-degree weather, and 80 such days by the 2090s.

The report also predicts an increase in the frequency of unusually warm nights and notes, "The combination of extremely hot days and unusually warm nights can be deadly. . . . The most recent results suggest that by the year 2050, New York's heat-related mortality will increase by between 50 percent and 200 percent" over current levels.

There are other health impacts to consider. An increase of 5 to 9 degrees could bring "a significant northern shift in outbreaks of two mosquito-borne diseases, western equine encephalomyelitis and St. Louis encephalitis." Indeed, late this summer, for the first time ever, another mosquito-borne disease, the rare West Nile virus, was discovered in the city. By early September it had killed several people in Queens and Brooklyn and sickened dozens more. While weather conditions in the Baked Apple-mild winter, wet spring, and hot, dry summer-favored the spread of the virus, Duane J. Gubler, M.D., of the federal Centers for Disease Control told The New York Times that global warming had "nothing to do" with the outbreak.

In addition, says the report, high temperatures and temperature inversions would increase concentrations of ground-level ozone, putting anyone with chronic respiratory illness, and even healthy children and adults, at risk. In high concentrations, ozone "irritates and injures cells lining the respiratory system, causing eye and nose irritation, coughing, and generally impaired lung function."

Ever since the last Ice Age peaked 18,000 years ago, and the glaciers retreated from New York, sea level has generally been rising as the ocean warms and expands. Although much of the local rise is due to land subsidence-the result of geological processes-sea level is rising at the rate of 0.11 inches a year in New York City.

Nor'easters are far more common than hurricanes in New York, and in December 1992 a nor'easter flooded parts of lower Manhattan, shutting down the city's subways and the underground trains to New Jersey and drowning stretches of the FDR Drive along the East River. Flooding also closed LaGuardia Airport, cut commuter-railroad service, forced the evacuation of seaside communities in New Jersey and on Long Island, washed away beaches, and destroyed more than 150 houses.

Consider that a gentle preview, because higher sea levels will cause storm surges to intrude farther inland. In lower Manhattan, storm surges coming from the harbor or the Hudson River would submerge the foundations of Battery Park City and the World Trade Center, while the East River would do a number on the FDR Drive, Bellevue Medical Center, and East Harlem.

Warming causes an intensification of the hydrologic cycle. "Extremely heavy precipitation events"-more than 2 inches of rain or equivalent snow in 24 hours-have increased in number as the United States has grown warmer. But contrary to what one might expect, warming also increases the likelihood of drought, because soil dries more quickly. With much higher temperatures and little change in precipitation, severe "100-year" droughts could begin to occur every 3 to 11 years sometime in the next century.


Experts guide: Climate change is with us. A decade ago, it was conjecture. Now the future is unfolding before our eyes.

NewScientist Special Report on Global Warming and many links

Start thinking how to cope with change:
The debate on global warming is over. Present levels of carbon dioxide--nearing 400 parts per million (ppm) in the earth's atmosphere--are higher than they have been at any time in the past 650,000 years and could easily surpass 500 ppm by the year 2050 without radical intervention.

Climate Repair Manual

Thanks!
adoucette
QUOTE
Hansen says the contrasting atmospheres on Venus and Mars "provided the best proof at the time of the reality of the greenhouse effect [on the earth]. Mars, which has only a thin atmosphere of greenhouse gases, is only a few degrees warmer than it would be if it had no atmosphere. Venus, on the other extreme, has a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and such a strong greenhouse effect that you could bake pizza on its surface. In fact, the pizza would burn, because the temperature is about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. The earth has an intermediate amount of greenhouse gases, which keeps the surface a comfortable 60 degrees warmer than it would be without these gases. For each of these planets, the amount of warming is in good agreement with what we calculate for the greenhouse effect."


ROTFLMAO

Arthur
Markinosis
Nothing relevant to say obviously.

I'll tell you what is Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A5s Off:

When Hansen went to testify again in 1989, an official in the White House Office of Management and Budget changed his testimony so as to negate the conclusion that global warming would cause the hydrologic cycle to intensify, resulting in periods of excessive precipitation and severe drought. The upshot: a rerun of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, with Hansen, in the role of Jimmy Stewart, protesting publicly, and Senator Al Gore lambasting the Bush administration for "science by fraud."

Unlucky with the diversions.

You rolled on the floor for no apparent reason. What a waste.
adoucette
Actually you have posted nothing of interest, which is why I haven't even bothered to refute your pages of pompous BS.

I pointed you to links where this HAD BEEN discussed and all you do is post more Global Warming BS taken out of context.

I point out where the articles are bogus and you just post more bogus articles.

Post on, but don't think anyone REALLY gives a damn.

Though you ARE good for a LAUGH.

All together now

THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


Arthur



Markinosis
[gobsmacked, abusive poster above resorting to repeated habitual childish personal attacks and dirtying science with political nonsense, with a 'holier than thou' very disturbed attitude, condescendingly deriding all scientists but himself and a larger than life ego: IGNORED!!!] (PS: check with near enough everyone else this nutcase attacks)

I've given you enough benefit of doubt and put up with your BS & attacks long enough. You've reflected your intelligence or rather the lack of it very clearly, an endless number of times. I dont know what sort of man you are acting so weird, nancy and sulking on nearly every other thread I've seen you post on. Insecure to say the least.

This is SCIENCE not some nursery game you like playing. I will ignore YOU from now on as you have provided zero substance & useless spam repeatedly here. Apologize for your behavior or get lost where your not wanted with your snidey remarks. I have no time for your petty games. You dont own this website or science contrary to how you act.

Continued... =>

Global Warming for healthy people and scientists: latest support

Tuesday, 26 September 2006, 17:13 GMT 18:13 UK

World 'warmest for 12,000 years'
QUOTE
Earth has warmed by 0.6C (1F) over the past 30 years, research shows
The world is the warmest it has been in the last 12,000 years as a result of rapid warming over the past 30 years, a study has suggested.


Nasa climatologists said the Earth had warmed by about 0.2C (0.4F) in each of the last three decades.

Pollution from human activity was pushing the world towards dangerous levels of climate change, they warned.

As a result, plant and animal species were struggling to migrate fast enough to cooler regions, they said.

"The evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," warned James Hansen, head of Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, New York.

Ice melt

The study by researchers from Nasa, Columbia University and the University of California at Santa Barbara (UCSB), showed that warming was greatest at high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, and was more pronounced over land than the oceans.

The reason behind the rise in temperatures in this region was a result of a loss in snow and ice cover, the researchers said.

As the Earth warmed, melting snow and ice exposed dark land surfaces which absorbed more energy from the Sun, resulting in more warming - a process known as "positive feedback".

Warming was less over the ocean than over the land because of the great heat capacity of the deep-mixing ocean, which causes warming to occur more slowly there.

Simon Tett, a scientist at the UK's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research, said the findings supported Dr Hansen's earlier predictions, which had been criticised in some quarters.

"The results of this study show that James Hansen's predictions of the late '80s are consistent with what has happened," Dr Tett said.

"Modelling has moved on since then, but the idea that early predictions were done to cause panic and were wrong has been proved to be not the case."

Ocean data

The study also showed that the recent warming had brought temperatures within about 1C (2F) of the estimated maximum of the past one million years.


How the greenhouse effect works

The Nasa researchers, alongside a team from UCSB, made the comparison by looking at past tropical ocean surface temperatures.

They did this through measurements of magnesium content in the shells of microscopic sea surface animals found in ocean sediment.

This study showed that the Western Equatorial region of the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean was as warm, if not warmer, since the end of the last major ice age, approximately 12,000 years ago.

The researchers said this findings was important because these ocean areas were indicative of global temperature shifts.

Keith Briffa, from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit, said the tropical ocean regions were among the more reliable areas from which to infer large-scale temperature changes.

"If you were looking for somewhere that was indicative of global average temperatures then you would go for the tropical oceans because modern studies based on instrumental records show that these are places that seem to represent relatively accurately global temperature variations over the last century."

But Professor Briffa said using data such as magnesium content in shells, otherwise known as "proxy data", over long periods raised a number of potential problems.

"The assumptions that we base our interpretations on are more likely to hold up when applied to data since the last ice age, or the last few millennia. The further back you go though, the more likely it is that the story is more complicated and the uncertainties in our interpretations of proxy data are likely to be much greater," Professor Briffa added.

"One of the big problems we have is that when you are looking at hundreds of thousands of years or longer timescales, we have no direct data to calibrate the proxy records rigorously."

Extinction fears

The team warned that the rate animal and plant migration was not keeping pace with recent temperature rises.

"That means that further global warming of 1C defines a critical level," Dr Hansen said.

"If warming is kept to less than that, effects of global warming may be relatively manageable. But if [it] reaches two or three degrees, we will likely see changes that make Earth a different planet to the one we know," he added.

"If we do not slow down the rate of global warming, many species are likely to become extinct. In effect, we are pushing them off the planet."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5381456.stm

(to other readers, sorry for the reality check to this one guy)


adoucette
Gobsmacked?

So I take it you are a Brit?

Seems likely, as most there seem to have been force fed the BBC Kool Aid.

Sorry to tell you but the NSA showed that that previous bit was hype just last month.

But hey, keep on crocheting your Mann Hockey Stick Coaster set.

Science could CARE LESS about your POLITICS.

Name ONE SPECIE that has gone extinct because of CLIMATE over the last three decades.

ONE.

Oh, and YOU NEVER answered why if this was such a devastating problem that most of the world was not to be bothered solving the problem and in fact was ENCOURAGED to keep making the problem worse.

Oh, and WHAT is YOUR SOLUTION to the "crisis", since even the IPCC has said (and its fairly obvious) that Kyoto will do NOTHING?

Arthur

lengould
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 27 2006, 04:24 AM)
Gobsmacked?

So I take it you are a Brit?

Seems likely, as most there seem to have been force fed the BBC Kool Aid.


Just lost all cred, A. Sorry, gotta call you on that nonsense. I'm now of the opinion that your frantic attacks on climate science are based on your fear for the coal industry in your home state.
mergatroid
Wow. Markinosis, adoucette, you guys really get into the discussion like none I've ever seen. I've sometimes thought that because our solar system takes approximately 200 million plus years to revolve once around the Milky Way, maybe during the course of one of these revolutions the solar system enters into some "bad" area of space and cause deviations of weather, or causing unknown phenomena and earthly perturbations.

I am still stunned whenever I think there was a time when most of the present water on earth was at one time locked in ice and that, over a long period of time liquid, flowing water eventually carved those deep canyons into the earth. Maybe those canyons are hundreds of millions of years old, but what a freakin' cool setting and stage to write a story with. No humans were around during these times but ..., who cares! It's excellent fodder for my imagination. cool.gif
TECALIFORNIA
Has anyone ever thought that the inflation of the universe might be the result of negative space outside the boundary of the universe, like a balloon in a vacuum? Gravity would slow the growth in the beginning but the expansion would continue then increase as the amount of positive space, energy, creation or whatever increases inside. Why dark matter and energy?
Smithy
QUOTE (mergatroid+Dec 14 2006, 03:35 PM)
Wow. Markinosis, adoucette, you guys really get into the discussion like none I've ever seen.

Markinosis certainly posts some very good references, not quite so with adoucette even though he says "Everything I mentioned I've discussed on this board (with links, pictures etc)."

See epa.gov/climatechange/science/images/co2-temp.gif
Note this EPA page was last updated on Thursday, December 21st, 2006, and contains a far more balanced presentation than I expected. Are we already starting to see the new Senator Boxer's influence on that web site now that InHofe (hoax) has been replaced (I guess he went off on his Christmas break...)?

This image is very interesting:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/Holocene_Temperature_Variations.png

Note that due to 12,000 years being covered (ie. the Holocene), the very sharp rise to about +0.45 C in 2004 AD cannot be shown except:
  • by indicating it on the Temperature Anomaly axis.
  • adding an insert for the past 2000 years, which clearly shows the Medievil Warm Period at about +0.0 C in about 1000 AD.
adoucette
Now, Smithy, please explain to all of us HOW the climate reverses?

Because looking at the chart the problem is the temperature begins its reversals (both up and down) while the CO2 is of the wrong magnitude. For your analysis to be correct the change in CO2 would have to PROCEED the temperature change, and proceed it by a fairly long time, but that is obviously not the case. Now for the interesting part, the graph that has been posted several times, shows two trend lines, one for Ppm CO2 and one for Global Temp. Its OBVIOUS that the two are correlated as the two trend lines change relatively uniformly. But what is actually much harder to find is a higher resolution graph that superimposes the two trend lines.


A recent study of the Vostok data was done by Caillon et al. (2003). They measured the isotopic composition of argon which they argue, because it is inert and the isotopes are temperature selective, is a better climate proxy, thus they were able to generate better estimates about the timing of CO2 and climate change. They took a section of the Vostok ice core for the period called Glacial Termination III (~ 240,000 years ago). The results of their tedious but meticulous analysis led them to conclude that "the CO2 increase lagged Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years."

Also See the following for a similar analysis derived though different proxies and analyis:

http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~meteo/MUDELSEE/publ/pdf/lag.pdf

The phase relations (leads/lags) among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume are key to understanding the causes of glacial-interglacial (G-IG) climate transitions. Comparing the CO2 record with other proxy variables from the Vostok ice core and stacked marine oxygen isotope records, allows the phase relations among these variables, over the last four G-IG cycles, to be estimated.
Lagged, generalized least-squares regression provides an efficient and precise technique for this estimation. Bootstrap resampling allows account to be taken of measurement and timescale errors. Over the full 420 ka of the Vostok record, CO2 variations lag behind atmospheric temperature changes in the Southern Hemisphere by 1.3+/-1.0 ka.

You can actually see this in the following graph, one of the few you will find where the two graphs are superimposed. Moving from the past to the present you will notice the temperature line slightly proceeds the CO2 line.

User posted image

http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/IceCores1.gif

The only REASONABLE assumption is that it is primarily the temperature of the surface waters of the Oceans that is causing the change in the CO2 level.

Why?

Well to start with the area of the World's Oceans is 361 million km²
The total volume is 1370 million km³ with an average depth is 3790 meters.
The total mass of the hydrosphere is about 1.4 × 10**21 kg
While the total mass of the atmosphere is but 5.1 x 10**18 kg.

Which is why when you are diving and you are about 10 meters below the surface of the ocean, the mass of the water above you is the same as the 100 kilometers of atmosphere above the water, you are now at twice atmospheric pressure.

Now consider that the oceans with almost 300 times the mass of the atmosphere have an average temperature of but 3.9 degrees C. While the average temperature of the atmosphere is a relatively balmy 14 degrees C. But here's the rub, at any given time the Oceans surface temperature, the area where heat exchange takes place can be significantly warmer then the average. In fact, the majority of the very cold water is deep in the oceans, while the surface temperatures (as evidenced by the ENSO, PDO, NAO, Conveyor etc) can be quite warm. These warm layers are typically much deeper then 33 feet so something like the PDO in its warm phase has a much more immediate and profound impact on the climate then does a few extra ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere.


The issue is quite straight forward if you think about it. The oceans take THOUSANDS of years to mix the surface water with the deep ocean water, but at any given time the surface layers of the oceans can change temperature dramatically. We have long known of the shorter, more intense and localized cycles the oceans go through, El Nino/La Nina being one of the most well known. And it is absolutely a fact that a strong El Nino or La Nina will have dramatic and far reaching climatic effects. The "Warmest Year on Record" 1998, was also one which just happened to have one of the largest, strongest El Ninos on record as well. Then we have the North Atlantic Oscillation which causes distinct weather patterns in Europe. Recently, two oceanographers; Keeling and Whorf found evidence for an 1,800-year cycle. The cycle arises primarily because of gradual changes in the alignments of the sun, moon, and earth, but work is ongoing to show how the Gas Giants also may impact us on even longer intervals.

Their research is the first to provide an explanation for nearly periodic millennial changes in temperature seen in ice and deep-sea sedimentary core records. Four years previously they have reported on the effects of shorter cycles of tidal forcing on global temperature at periods near 18, 90, and 180 years.

Their research suggests that strong oceanic tides drive changes in climate due to their ability to increase vertical mixing in the ocean and thereby transport cold ocean water to the surface.

Strong tides elicit cool conditions on the sea surface, which in turn lowers temperatures in air and over land, resulting in cooler climates around the planet, often accompanied by drought conditions.

Weak tides lead to less cold water mixing and result in warmer periods on Earth.

Hey, guess what, that agrees with BASIC Physics. We KNOW if we warm a solution of water and carbonic acid that the CO2 will outgas as the water warms and we know if we cool the solution more CO2 will disolve into it.

Works with Sodas too. Open a very cold coke, small fizz. Open a warm coke, SPILLOVER.

So NO MAGIC is needed to see how the rising and falling of the surface temperature of the oceans changes the Atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Postulating that the earth is now so UNSTABLE that relatively small changes in a relatively minor GHG can cause climatic upheaval in a relatively short time frame simply does not agree with either the physics or the observational data. What one needs if one is to believe that a change of just PARTS PER MILLION of CO2 in the atmosphere is, if not magic, at least a workable hypothesis, one that answers at least the basic questions the recent analysis of the ice cores bring up:

WHAT EXTERNAL FACTOR CAUSES THE CO2 TO RISE AND FALL?

HOW DO THESE RELATIVELY SMALL CHANGES IN A MINOR GHG CAUSE SUCH DRASTIC TEMPERATURE CHANGES CONSIDERING THE SMALL DIFFEERENCE IN THE RADIATIVE FORCING OF CO2 AT THE DIFFERENT CONCENTRATIONS?

(CO2 absorbtion of IR energy is not linear, as the ppm value increases beyond about 100 ppm the absorbtion per additional ppm decreases until the CO2 reaches IR saturation at which point, additional CO2 has almost no additional impact on air temperatures. Why this is so is that CO2 absorbs IR radiation in a narrow band. Once ALL the outgoing radiation in that band is absorbed adding more CO2 has little increasing impact (as long as CO2 remains a minor gas, the physics are quite different if our atmosphere had say the level of CO2 that we have of Nitrogen, the previous is in fact a gross simplification of atmospheric physics, but the essentials are correct)

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A FEW HUNDRED PPM CHANGE IN ATMOSPHERIC CO2 CAN CAUSE SUCH DRASTIC CHANGES IN THE CLIMATE? WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE OF LONG PERIODS OF RISING TEMPS AND FALLING CO2 OR FALLING CO2 AND RISING TEMPS.

WHY DO LEVELS OF ONLY 300 PPM CAUSE A DRAMATIC WARMING WHILE WE KNOW OF LONG PERIODS OF TIME WHEN THE CO2 LEVEL WAS A FACTOR OR MORE HIGHER, YET THE TEMPERAURES WERE ONLY A FEW DEGREES WARMER?

CONVERSELY, IF CO2 IS THE PRIME DRIVING FACTOR FOR THE CLIMATE, HOW DID THE EARTH GO THROUGH ICE AGES WHILE THE CO2 LEVELS WERE A FACTOR GREATER THEN NOW?

Now as to human impact and Kyoto targets. The approach to modifing the Earth's climate by making what amounts to insignificant changes in the ppm of CO2 should make Cervante's roll over in his grave. There never was such a large windmill the world was eager to joust with!

The mass of the atmosphere is estimated to be 5.137 x 1018 kg
1 ppmv of CO2 in the atmosphere is equal to 2.13 Gt of carbon.
Each ppmv represents 2.13 X 10**15 grams, or 2.13 petagrams of carbon (PgC)

During the period of 1850 to 2000:

Of the 3 major ways man adds CO2 to the atmosphere:

Land-use changes added ~154 PgC to the atmosphere.
Combustion of fossil fuels released another ~282 PgC (64%)
Cement manufacture released ~5.5 PgC

Total Carbon Man contributed to the atmosphere = ~441.5 PgC.

CO2 concentrations rose from 288 ppmv to 369.5 ppmv, or a net increase of 81.5 ppmv

81.5 ppmv at 2.13 PgC per ppmv is equal to an atmospheric increase of 174 PgC.

So, though man released 441.5 PgC into the atmosphere in the last 150 years only 174 PgC, or roughly 40% of it remains there. The other 60% was taken up by the biosphere, land and oceans.

The level of 369.5 ppmv of carbon in the atmosphere equals 787 PgC, but of that only 174 PgC remains from all that man has been added since 1850.

Since 64% of our Carbon releases come from Fossil fuels, then of the 174 PgC only 111 PgC came from oil, coal or natural gas

So of the 787 PgC atmospheric total only 111 PgC, or roughly 14% of the CO2 in the atmosphere came from Fossil fuel.

Yet you think minor reductions in Fossil fuel use back to 1990 levels will alter this?

laugh.gif

Friggin Amazing.

Here, have another cup of the Kool-Aid.

Arthur
Zephir
How the americanized demagogue arguments against Kyoto protocol: USC geologists: humans cause 2% of warming, Farm animals emit 20% of greenhouse gases.

The first article is marginalizing the human influence to global warning as such, the second one introduces the idea, the developing country are responsible for the global warming as well. Very interesting, indeed....

Zephir: USC geologists: humans cause 2% of warming .... farm animals emit 20% of greenhouse gases... LOL... this is really science for me...

Motl: Dear Zephir, these two figures come from different authors, but even if they did not, there would be no absolutely no contradiction in between them simply because greenhouse gases are simply not that important for the warming. You must be a making a really painfully simple error if you think that there is a contradiction. Try to think again.

Zephir: ...simply because greenhouse gases are simply not that important for the warming.... And the proof?

Motl: Dear Zephir, I don't have a proof and I am not even 100% sure whether it's true. I was just explaining that the statement "LOL this is really science for me" was very dumb in the given context.


User posted image

This is the result of introducing the politic into serious science. Question remains, if we can believe a single word of such people, the "dear" salutation the less.
lengould

Note: http://www.physorg.com/news77378053.html


Re: Arthur's "(CO2 absorbtion of IR energy is not linear, as the ppm value increases beyond about 100 ppm the absorbtion per additional ppm decreases until the CO2 reaches IR saturation at which point, additional CO2 has almost no additional impact on air temperatures. Why this is so is that CO2 absorbs IR radiation in a narrow band. Once ALL the outgoing radiation in that band is absorbed adding more CO2 has little increasing impact (as long as CO2 remains a minor gas, the physics are quite different if our atmosphere had say the level of CO2 that we have of Nitrogen, the previous is in fact a gross simplification of atmospheric physics, but the essentials are correct) "

is almost as gross as it is a simplification. wink.gif In fact anyone who has observed a chart of earth's real radiation will see that whereas Arthur's theory should show a fairly sharp square notch in re-radiation at the CO2 frequency with the notch approaching maximum depth eg. little more re-radiation remaining to be intercepted by CO2, in fact there is a broad V shaped notch with no indication that the sides of it are even squaring off yet, indicating that CO2 has a LOT more potential to contribute to the greenhouse effect. I'd assume the reason for this may be the well-known fact that THE IR FREQUENCY WHICH A CO2 MOLECULE INTERACTS WITH CHANGES AS THE PRESSURE CHANGES, meaning that the radiation intercepted at sea level is not the same as that intercepted in the stratosphere.

In any case, I'd recommend not taking too much of what Arthur declares as truth without several handfulls of salt. I'm not suggesting that any doomsday is about to befall all life on earth, just that mankind should just be a little more cautious about randomly fouling up the only habitat we know of which can support our species. In 1960 the US made do with about 1/15th the electricity it now uses. Going back to 14/15th's as Kyoto suggested would kill you guys?
adoucette
You fail to notice that the MAJORITY of the atmosphere is at ~ the same pressure, so any minor change in IR absorption by pressure is not an issue.

The amount of CO2 in the Stratosphere is NOT a factor in GW.


As to your

QUOTE
In 1960 the US made do with about 1/15th the electricity it now uses. Going back to 14/15th's as Kyoto suggested would kill you guys?


Total BS.

Check your figures.

Note that we have been averaging ~2% increase per year since 1994, in 2005 our 4,054,688 (thousand megawatts) equaled a 24% increase over 1994's 3,247,522 total.

Also, while doing so, keep in mind the PER CAPITA aspects of a GROWING POPULATION.

Sheesh.

Arthur
adoucette
Len

1960 US electrical production = 755 Billion KWH
2005 US electrical production = 4,054 Billion KWH

1960 population = 180 Million
2005 population = 300 Million

But comparing electrical use between periods 45 years apart is SILLY.

Besides the dramatic population difference, the switch from gas/oil/wood as a PRIMARY domestic/industrial source of energy to use of Electrical as a PRIMARY source is masked.

You have to look at ALL energy use, not take one out of context.

Now as far as Kyoto, that 14/15ths is BS.

Kyoto calls for the US to reduce CO2 to 6% below 1990 levels.

This is roughly equivalent to cutting back energy use to the levels of 1987 by 2012.

The problem is that by 2005 the population of the US has already grown by 60 Million people, or 25% from 1987.

That's the EQUIVALENT OF TWO CANADAs.

Kyoto is calling for this MUCH LARGER larger population to get by on MUCH LESS energy per person.

This would require ENORMOUS reductions in energy use or ENORMOUS switch to Nuclear/Wind/Solar.

But ALL OF THESE are prohibitively expensive and considering the siting issues and or build/install time, switching to these CAN'T be done in the time frame nor does the US Federal Govt have the authority to MANDATE this switch.

The ONLY method available is via TAXATION and the CO2 TAX would have to be VERY STEEP to FORCE this change.

You see any politicians with a platform based on MAJOR INCREASES in TAXES as a way to get elected?

Oh, by the way, the reason Canada will NOT meet its Kyoto targets is essentially the same reason the US could not. Canada's population has grown slightly slower than the US but still it has grown 21% in the period from 1987 till now.

(You might compare this to a big Kyoto supporter, the United Kingdom which in 1990 posted a population of 58 million and in 2,000 posted a population of 59 million. )

Now, considering that Canada ratified Kyoto, WHAT is Canada doing to meet its 2008-2012 CO2 reduction obligation?

Arthur
Smithy
Hi Arthur (adoucette),

Regarding the time lag issue, you mentioned Vostok, but your PDF concludes:
QUOTE
As regards causal explanations of Late Pleistocene glacial cycles, it has to be considered that Vostok's air temperature (dD) represents, at best, the Southern Hemisphere.

And immediately continues:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As regards causal explanations of Late Pleistocene glacial cycles, it has to be considered that Vostok's air temperature (dD) represents, at best, the Southern Hemisphere.

And immediately continues:Blunier et al. (1998) estimated that Greenland
temperature variations lag behind those of Vostok by 1-2.5 ka over the period 47-23 ka. Thus, the geological relationships between variations in atmospheric CO2
content, global temperature and ice volume are quite

(Since it could easily be larger than Vostok's "changes in the Southern Hemisphere by 1.3+/-1.0 ka")

This is a good place to start: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=13
QUOTE
Does this prove that CO2 doesn't cause global warming? The answer is no.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Does this prove that CO2 doesn't cause global warming? The answer is no.


From studying all the available data (not just ice cores), the probable sequence of events at a termination goes something like this. Some (currently unknown) process causes Antarctica and the surrounding ocean to warm. This process also causes CO2 to start rising, about 800 years later. Then CO2 further warms the whole planet, because of its heat-trapping properties. This leads to even further CO2 release. So CO2 during ice ages should be thought of as a "feedback", much like the feedback that results from putting a microphone too near to a loudspeaker.

In other words, CO2 does not initiate the warmings, but acts as an amplifier once they are underway. From model estimates, CO2 (along with other greenhouse gases CH4 and N2O) causes about half of the full glacial-to-interglacial warming.

So, in summary, the lag of CO2 behind temperature doesn't tell us much about global warming. But it may give us a very interesting clue about why CO2 rises at the ends of ice ages. The 800-year lag is about the amount of time required to flush out the deep ocean through natural ocean currents. So CO2 might be stored in the deep ocean during ice ages, and then get released when the climate warms.


The point I was trying to make is that the current temperature chnage is drastically different from previous highs in the last 400,000 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change
User posted image
(comment?)

You used this site for an image, but I assume you didn't see the main web-site tag line and in fact the front page:
QUOTE (http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/+)
'The burning of oil coal and gas for the world's energy including electricity and transport is causing global warming and climate change'.

Global average temperatures have risen approx 0.6C since 1900 but are already causing world wide damage - floods and droughts are increasing, sea level's rising and natural disasters have increased almost three fold since the 1960's. By 2050 there are estimated to be 150 million environmental refugees (3m a year) due to sea level rise or lack of food and water. By 2100 global average temperatures are projected to rise by between 1.4C and 5.8C and 40% more than this over many northern land surface areas. Over Greenland temperatures may rise by one to three times the global average.

"We are now engaged in an epic battle to right the balance of the Earth - and the tide of this battle will turn only when the majority of people in the world become sufficiently aroused by a shared sense of urgent danger to join an all out effort." Al Gore, "Earth In The Balance"


You seem to have such a lot to say. But don't refer to many sources. When you do use sources, you don't seem to read them properly. Probably why I find it so easy to agree with this one:
QUOTE (lengould+)
In any case, I'd recommend not taking too much of what Arthur declares as truth without several handfulls of salt.
adoucette
Who cares where I get an image from?????

Doesn't mean I agree with the site.

You get your kicks out of shooting the MESSENGER?


The point of the LAG quote is quite simple, the WARMING caused the CO2 to rise, not the other way around.


Arthur
Smithy
I know we need action not just talk, but the public are at least demonstrating their interest via the DVD best sellers list where An Inconvenient Truth (Documentary) is listed as follows:

* http://www.amazon.com (released 21 Nov 2006): 30 Dec 2006 = 2nd, 9 Jan 2007 = 1st, 10 Jan 2006 = 2nd
* http://www.amazon.co.uk (released 26 Dec 2006): 30 Dec 2006 = 5th, 9 & 10 Jan 2007 = 3rd

A balanced review can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inconvenient_Truth
QUOTE
The film includes many segments intended to refute critics who say that global warming is insignificant or unproved.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The film includes many segments intended to refute critics who say that global warming is insignificant or unproved.

Gore's basic claim—that global warming is real and largely human-caused—is supported by current research.

adoucette
Cinemas everywhere will soon be showing former US Vice President Al Gore’s film on global warming. “An Inconvenient Truth” has received rave reviews in America and Europe, and it will most likely gain a large worldwide audience. But, while the film is full of emotion and provocative images, it is short on rational arguments.

“An Inconvenient Truth” makes three points: global warming is real; it will be catastrophic; and addressing it should be our top priority. Inconveniently for the film’s producers, however, only the first statement is correct.

While it’s nice to see Gore bucking the trend in a nation where many influential people deny that global warming even exists, many of his apocalyptic claims are highly misleading. But his biggest error lies in suggesting that humanity has a moral imperative to act on climate change because we realize there is a problem. This seems naïve, even disingenuous.

We know of many vast global challenges that we could easily solve. Preventable diseases like HIV, diarrhea, and malaria take 15 million lives each year. Malnutrition afflicts more than half the world’s population. Eight hundred million people lack basic education. A billion don’t have clean drinking water.

In the face of these challenges, why should stopping climate change be our top priority? Gore’s attempt at an answer doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Gore shows that glaciers have receded for 50 years. But he doesn’t acknowledge they have been shrinking since the Napoleonic wars in the early 1800’s – long before industrial CO2 emissions. Likewise, he considers Antarctica the canary in the coalmine, but again doesn’t tell the full story. He presents pictures from the 2% of Antarctica that is dramatically warming, while ignoring the 98% that has largely cooled over the past 35 years. The UN climate panel estimates that Antarctica’s snow mass will actually increase during this century. And, whereas Gore points to shrinking sea ice in the Northern Hemisphere, he fails to mention that ice in the Southern Hemisphere is increasing.

The movie shows scary pictures of the consequences of the sea level rising 20 feet (seven meters), flooding large parts of Florida, San Francisco, New York, Holland, Calcutta, Beijing, and Shanghai. Were realistic levels not dramatic enough? The United Nations panel on climate change suggests a rise of only 1-2 feet during this century, compared to almost one foot in the last century.

Similarly, Europe’s deadly heat waves in 2003 lead Gore to conclude that climate change will mean more fatalities. But global warming would mean fewer deaths caused by cold temperatures, which in most of the developed world vastly outweigh deaths caused by heat. In the UK alone, it is estimated that the temperature increase would cause 2,000 extra heat deaths by 2050, but result in 20,000 fewer cold deaths.

Financial losses from weather events have increased dramatically over the past 45 years, which Gore attributes to global warming. But all or almost all of this increase comes from more people with more possessions living closer to harm’s way. If all hurricanes had hit the US with today’s demographics, the biggest damage would have been caused not by Katrina, but by a hurricane in 1926. Allowing for changes in the number of people and their wealth, flood losses have actually decreased slightly.

The movie invites viewers to conclude that global warming caused Hurricane Katrina, with Gore claiming that the warm Caribbean waters made the storm stronger. But when Katrina made landfall, it was not a catastrophic Category 5 hurricane; it was a milder Category 3. In fact, there is no scientific consensus that global warming makes hurricanes more destructive, as he claims. The author that Gore himself relies on says that it would be “absurd to attribute the Katrina disaster to global warming.”

After presenting the case for the potentially catastrophic effects of climate change, Gore unveils his solution: the world should embrace the Kyoto Protocol, which aims to cut carbon emissions in the developed countries by 30% by 2010.

But even if every nation signed up to Kyoto, it would merely postpone warming by six years in 2100, at an annual cost of $150 billion. Kyoto would not have saved New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina. But improved levees and maintenance could have. While Gore was campaigning for Kyoto in the 1990’s, a better use of resources would have been to bolster hurricane defenses.

Indeed, the real issue is using resources wisely. Kyoto won’t stop developing countries from being hardest hit by climate change, for the simple reason that they have warmer climates and fewer resources. But these nations have pressing problems that we could readily solve. According to UN estimates, for $75 billion a year – half the cost of implementing the Kyoto Protocol – we could provide clean drinking water, sanitation, basic health care, and education to every single human being on Earth. Shouldn’t that be a higher priority?

Recent hurricanes killed thousands in Haiti, and not in Florida, because Haiti is poor and cannot afford even basic preventive measures. Combating disease, hunger, and polluted water would bring immediate benefits to millions and allow poorer countries to increase productivity and break the cycle of poverty. That, in turn, would make their inhabitants less vulnerable to climate fluctuations.

At the climax of his movie, Gore argues that future generations will chastise us for not having committed ourselves to the Kyoto Protocol. More likely, they will wonder why, in a world overflowing with “inconvenient truths,” Gore focused on the one where we could achieve the least good for the highest cost.

By Bjørn Lomborg, Director for the Copenhagen Consensus Center and Adjunct Professor at the Copenhagen Business School. His most recent book is How to Spend $50 Billion to Make the World a Better Place.
Smithy
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 10 2007, 04:39 PM)
By Bjørn Lomborg, Director for the Copenhagen Consensus Center and Adjunct Professor at the Copenhagen Business School.

Hi Arthur (anducette),

I note there are no references backing up any of your opinions or claims, except for Lomborg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_Lomborg
QUOTE

Accusations of scientific dishonesty

After the publication of The Skeptical Environmentalist, Lomborg was accused of scientific misconduct. Several environmental scientists brought a total of three complaints against Lomborg to the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD), a body under Denmark's Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation. The charges claimed that The Skeptical Environmentalist contained deliberately misleading data and flawed conclusions. Due to the similarity of the complaints, the DCSD decided to proceed on the three cases under one investigation.

http://www.lomborg-errors.dk/
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Accusations of scientific dishonesty

After the publication of The Skeptical Environmentalist, Lomborg was accused of scientific misconduct. Several environmental scientists brought a total of three complaints against Lomborg to the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD), a body under Denmark's Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation. The charges claimed that The Skeptical Environmentalist contained deliberately misleading data and flawed conclusions. Due to the similarity of the complaints, the DCSD decided to proceed on the three cases under one investigation.

http://www.lomborg-errors.dk/
gives information on cases and activities related to Bjørn Lomborg, attempts to describe his methods, and attempts to document his dishonesty.

Documenting un-scientific methods isn't easy, making them up must be tricky too!
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=1273

There is no reason why global warming cannot sit beside other needy causes in the world. In fact addressing it benefits people who would otherwise become needy causes.

Based on your sources, and what I have debunked of what you have written before, I suspect that most if not all of your claims are false.

Sorry!
adoucette
Sorry yourself.

Bjorn was cleared of those charges.

PS, you've not debunked a thing. I just get tired of correcting the same ol BS.

Arthur
Smithy
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 10 2007, 06:49 PM)
Bjorn was cleared of those charges.

No smoke without fire?
adoucette
Yeah,

He pissed off the Greenies who attacked THE MESSENGER ruthlessly.

They failed because there was no substance to their allegations.

Just like you.

You didn't attack WHAT he said, just WHO was saying it.

Typical.

Arthur

ehm
Here's a link to a journal article that presents highlights of a study that uses one natural process (Earth Magnetic Field Variation) variable that can predict global temperatures 6 to 7 years in the future... And there's no one other variable that can do that.

www.gsaaj.org/articles/TempPaperv1n22007.pdf
U NO HOO
Is Global Warming causing Cheryl "Charlee" Lockwood's house to fall into the ocean?
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.