Hansen made a big splash in the PRESS with his "Smoking Gun" of Global warming last Feb.
So is it any surprise that nobody has heard much about said "smoking gun" since then?
Last Feb? He's been repeating this with evidence, for our sake since 1985 at least.
You not remember this:
"In 1988 Hansen made the greenhouse effect world news when he told a Senate committee, "The greenhouse effect has been detected, and it is changing our climate now.""
Where have you been? (unless your still a teenager)
Just like Richard Branson pledging to donate all his airline profits (£3Bn) to fight Global Warming. But no, your smarter than him I guess, £3Bn smarter.
You think so.
There is too much temperature related empirically accurate data and its been shown earlier in the thread many times.
Like here for instance:
Figure 3. Seasonal temperature change over the past 50 years based on local linear trends.Is this past your 60 years?
Figure 1: (Above) Global annual surface temperature relative to 1951-1980 mean based on surface air measurements at meteorological stations and ship and satellite measurements for sea surface temperature. Error bars are estimated 2σ (95% confidence) uncertainty. (Below) Temperature anomaly for 2005 calendar year. Gray areas indicate a lack of station data within 1200km.Here's Hansen from Jan 99:
Education Resource Materials
The Global Warming Debate
By James Hansen — January 1999The only way to have real success in science ... is to describe the evidence very carefully without regard to the way you feel it should be. If you have a theory, you must try to explain what's good about it and what's bad about it equally. In science you learn a kind of standard integrity and honesty. — Richard Feynman
In my view, we are not doing as well as we could in the global warming debate. For one thing, we have failed to use the opportunity to help teach the public about how science research works. On the contrary, we often appear to the public to be advocates of fixed adversarial positions. Of course, we can try to blame this on the media and politicians, with their proclivities to focus on antagonistic extremes. But that doesn't really help.
The fun in science is to explore a topic from all angles and figure out how something works. To do this well, a scientist learns to be open-minded, ignoring prejudices that might be imposed by religious, political or other tendencies (Galileo being a model of excellence). Indeed, science thrives on repeated challenge of any interpretation, and there is even special pleasure in trying to find something wrong with well-accepted theory. Such challenges eventually strengthen our understanding of the subject, but it is a never-ending process as answers raise more questions to be pursued in order to further refine our knowledge.
Skepticism thus plays an essential role in scientific research, and, far from trying to silence skeptics, science invites their contributions. So too, the global warming debate benefits from traditional scientific skepticism.
I have argued in a recent
book review that some "greenhouse skeptics" subvert the scientific process, ceasing to act as objective scientists, rather presenting only one side, as if they were lawyers hired to defend a particular viewpoint. But some of the topics focused on by the skeptics are recognized as legitimate research questions, and also it is fair to say that the injection of environmental, political and religious perspectives in midstream of the science research has occurred from both sides in the global warming debate.
So, what to do? Most scientists are willing to spend part of their time communicating with the public about how science works. And they should be: after all, the financial support for most research is provided ultimately by the public. But one quickly learns that such communication is not easy, at least not for many of us.
In late 1998, I was asked to debate the well-known greenhouse skeptic Dr. Patrick Michaels of the University of Virginia. I summarize here some key points in the debate, "A Public Debate on the Science of Global Warming", held at the New York Hilton, Nov. 20, 1998, and organized by the American Association for the Rhetoric of Science and Technology. A copy of my entire contribution may be downloaded as a
PDF document (Note: This document is 597 kB and requires a special viewer such as the free Adobe Reader.).
I agreed to participate in this debate with Dr. Michaels after learning that he had used (or misused) a figure of mine in testimony to the United States Congress. The figure showed the first predictions made with a 3-D climate model and time-dependent climate forcings — it was a figure from a paper that we had published in the Journal of Geophysical Research in 1988 and it had been a principal basis for testimony that I gave to the United States Senate in 1988.
Fig. 1: Climate model calculations reported in Hansen et al. (1988).The figure that we published is reproduced here as Fig. 1. It shows the simulated global mean temperature for three climate forcing scenarios. Scenario A has a fast growth rate for greenhouse gases. Scenarios B and C have a moderate growth rate for greenhouse gases until year 2000, after which greenhouse gases stop increasing in Scenario C. Scenarios B and C also included occasional large volcanic eruptions, while scenario A did not. The objective was to illustrate the broad range of possibilities in the ignorance of how forcings would actually develop. The extreme scenarios (A with fast growth and no volcanos, and C with terminated growth of greenhouse gases) were meant to bracket plausible rates of change. All of the maps of simulated climate change that I showed in my 1988 testimony were for the intermediate scenario B, because it seemed the most likely of the three scenarios.
But when Pat Michaels testified to congress in 1998 and showed our 1988 predictions (Fig. 1) he erased the curves for scenarios B and C, and showed the result only for scenario A. He then argued that, since the real world temperature had not increased as fast as this model calculation, the climate model was faulty and there was no basis for concern about climate change, specifically concluding that the Kyoto Protocol was "a useless appendage to an irrelevant treaty".
Although scientists have a right to express personal opinions related to policy issues, it seems to me that we can be of more use by focusing on the science and carrying that out with rigorous objectivity. That approach seems to be essential for the success, as well as the "fun", of scientific research.
Fig. 1 is a good case in point. We now know (Hansen et al.
1998a,
1998b) that the growth rate of greenhouse gases in the period 1988-1998 has been flat, very similar to scenarios B and C (which are nearly the same until year 2000). Thus we can compare real world temperature changes in the past decade (filled circles in Fig. 1) with model calculations for the B-C scenarios. Taking account of the fact that the real world volcano occurred in 1991, rather than 1995 as assumed in the model, it is apparent that the model did a good job of predicting global temperature change. But the period of comparison is too short and the climate change too small compared to natural variability for the comparison to provide a meaningful check on the model's sensitivity to climate forcings. With data from another decade we will be able to make a much clearer evaluation of the model.
Table 1. Key Differences with (the few) SkepticsQUOTE
1. Observed global warming: real or measurement problem?
Hansen: global warming is 0.5-0.75°C in past century, at least ~0.3°C in past 25 years.
Lindzen: since about 1850 "...more likely ... 0.1±0.3°C" (MIT Tech Talk, 34, #7, 1989).
2. Climate sensitivity (equilibrium response to 2×CO2)
Lindzen: ~< 1°c Hansen: 3±1°C
Comments: paleoclimate data, improved climate models, and process studies may narrow uncertainties; observed climate change on decadal time scales will provide constraint if climate forcings are measured; implicit information on climate sensitivity can be extracted from observed changes in ocean heat storage.
3. Water vapor feedback
Lindzen: negative, upper tropospheric water vapor decreases with global warming.
Hansen: positive, upper and lower tropospheric water vapor increase with global warming.
References: (these include references by Lindzen stating that, in response to global warming, water vapor will decrease at altitudes above 2-3 km).
Comment: accurate observations of interannual changes (several years) and long-term changes (1-2 decades) of upper tropospheric water vapor could provide defining data.
4. CO2 contribution to the ~33°C natural greenhouse effect
Lindzen: "Even if all other greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide and methane) were to disappear, we would still be left with over 98 percent of the current greenhouse effect." Cato Review, Spring issue, 87-98, 1992; "If all CO2 were removed from the atmosphere, water vapor and clouds would still provide almost all of the present greenhouse effect." Res. Explor. 9, 191-200, 1993.
Lacis and Hansen: removing CO2, with water vapor kept fixed, would cool the Earth 5-10°C; removing CO2 and trace gases with water vapor allowed to respond would remove most of the natural greenhouse effect.
5. When will global warming and climate change be obvious?
Lindzen: I personally feel that the likelihood over the next century of greenhouse warming reaching magnitudes comparable to natural variability remains small.
Hansen: "With the climatological probability of a hot summer represented by two faces (say painted red) of a six-faced die, judging from our model by the 1990s three or four of the six die faces will be red. It seems to us that this is a sufficient 'loading' of the dice that it will be noticeable to the man in the street." J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364, 1988.
6. Planetary disequilibrium
Hansen: Earth is out of radiative equilibrium with space by at least approximately 0.5 W/m2 (absorbing more energy than it emits).
Comments: This is the most fundamental measure of the state of the greenhouse effect. Because the disequilibrium is a product of the long response time of the climate system, which in turn is a strong function of climate sensitivity, confirmation of the disequilibrium provides information on climate sensitivity and an indication of how much additional global warming is "in the pipeline" due to gases already added to the atmosphere.
This disequilibrium could be measured as the sum of the rate of heat storage in the ocean plus the net energy going into the melting of ice. Existing technology, including very precise measurements of ocean and ice sheet topography, could provide this information.
As the opinions in the global warming debate do not seem to be converging, it seems to me that one useful thing that can be done is to clearly delineate the fundamental differences. Then, as our scientific understanding advances over the next several years, we can achieve more convincing evaluations of the global warming issue. (Stated less generously, this is a way to pin down those who keep changing their arguments.)
Table 1 summarizes chief differences that I delineated for the sake of a discussion with Richard Lindzen, who has provided the intellectual underpinnings for the greenhouse skeptics, in October 1998. I also used this list (Table 1) as the principal fodder for my "affirmative closing argument" in the debate with Pat Michaels.
Differences 1 (reality of global warming) and 2 (climate sensitivity) are very fundamental. From my perspective, strong evidence is already accumulating that weighs heavily against the skeptics contentions that there is no significant global warming and that climate sensitivity is low. These issues will become even clearer over the next several years.
Difference 3 (water vapor feedback) is related to climate sensitivity, but is so fundamental that it deserves specific attention. The topic has resisted definitive empirical evaluation, because of the poor state of water vapor measurements and the fact that tropospheric temperature change has been small in the past 20 years. Ozone depletion, which affects upper tropospheric temperatures, has also complicated this problem. This situation will change if, as I would anticipate, ozone depletion flattens and global temperature continues to rise.
Difference 4 has an academic flavor, and is perhaps not worth special efforts. But it illustrates a lack of understanding of the basic greenhouse mechanism by Lindzen.
Difference 5 is fundamental because substantial efforts to curb global warming may require that climate change first be apparent to people. If our assessments are right, we are in fact on the verge of warming being noticeable to the perceptive person-in-the-street. (See related material
Global Temperature Trends: 1998 summation and the
Commen Sense Climate Index.)
Difference 6, concerning the planetary "disequilibrium" (imbalance between incoming and outgoing radiation) is the most fundamental measure of the state of the anthropogenic greenhouse effect. The disequilibrium should exist if climate sensitivity is as high (and thus the ocean thermal response time so long) as we estimate, and if increasing greenhouse gases are the dominant climate forcing mechanism. We have presented evidence (
Hansen et al. 1997) of a disequilibrium of at least 0.5 W/m2. This imbalance is the basis by which we could predict that record global temperatures would occur within a few years, that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s, and that the first decade of next century will be warmer than the 1990s, despite the existence of natural climate variability. I do not know of a reference where Lindzen specifically addresses planetary radiation imbalance, but his positions regarding climate sensitivity and the ocean response time clearly imply a smaller, negligible imbalance.
The important point is that the planetary radiation imbalance is measurable, via the ocean temperature, because the only place this excess energy can go is into the ocean and, probably to a less extent, into the melting of ice. If our estimates are approximately right, this heat storage should not escape detection during the next several years.
In summary, all of these issues are ones that the scientific community potentially can make progress on in the near future, if they receive appropriate attention. The real global warming debate, in the sense of traditional science, can be resolved to a large extent in a reasonable time.
--------------
Something else to see:
Hansen, J., I. Fung, A. Lacis, D. Rind, S. Lebedeff, R. Ruedy, G. Russell, and P. Stone 1988. Global climate changes as forecast by Goddard Institute for Space Studies three-dimensional model. J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364.
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1988/Hansen_etal.htmlObviously I see no sign of those that used to argue (for whatever political purpose) partially against the generally accepted and thoroughly reliable
scientific experts of the world since the onset of this year and its magnificent findings and compelling data. They could only argue on one leg behind the curtain due to their being a weakness in our then current ability and records to provide empirical evidence we now have and are definitely acquiring daily - much more to support all our contentions and previous analysis based on the most scrupulous research techniques. Scientists accepting and realizing GW were right in EVERY piece of evidence and analysis.
I wonder what research evidence they the few skeptics can present against every one of these daily positively assuring research results we produce. I must admit, none whatsoever so far.
It boils down to what we know rather than what we don't. As far as its cautiously predicted by the year 2050-only as far in the future, after all, as 1950 is in the past-the global temperature could be 3 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is now. It has not been that hot for 400,000 years, a time well before modern humans evolved. By 2075 a 5-degree jump would make the planet its hottest in 4 million years, and by the end of the coming century the earth could be as hot as it was 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs disappeared.
Rapid heating on this scale will change the very face of the planet and cause chaos for the global environment, the economy, and politics. Glaciers will melt, and as seas heat and expand, the ocean will rise, drowning low-lying island nations and coastlines. Say sayonara to the Maldives, the Pacific atolls, Bangladesh, the Nile River delta, and much of the East and Gulf coasts of the United States. Tens of millions of people will be forced to move, and move again, in a kind of endless caravan, bearing conflict and disease. Adapted to specific climate zones, plants and animals will be hard pressed to move north; climate zones could shift 400 miles north by the end of the next century-far faster than trees and other plants spread after the retreat of the last glacier-and many species will become extinct. Old forests will burn, farmland will succumb to drought, and floods will increase.
As Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, warned in the late 1980s, "Earth's climate does not respond in a smooth and gradual way; rather, it responds in sharp jumps
It can all be broken down to this in simple language:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
1. Observed global warming: real or measurement problem?
Hansen: global warming is 0.5-0.75°C in past century, at least ~0.3°C in past 25 years. Lindzen: since about 1850 "...more likely ... 0.1±0.3°C" (MIT Tech Talk, 34, #7, 1989).
2. Climate sensitivity (equilibrium response to 2×CO2)
Lindzen: ~< 1°c Hansen: 3±1°C
Comments: paleoclimate data, improved climate models, and process studies may narrow uncertainties; observed climate change on decadal time scales will provide constraint if climate forcings are measured; implicit information on climate sensitivity can be extracted from observed changes in ocean heat storage.
3. Water vapor feedback
Lindzen: negative, upper tropospheric water vapor decreases with global warming. Hansen: positive, upper and lower tropospheric water vapor increase with global warming.
References: (these include references by Lindzen stating that, in response to global warming, water vapor will decrease at altitudes above 2-3 km).
Comment: accurate observations of interannual changes (several years) and long-term changes (1-2 decades) of upper tropospheric water vapor could provide defining data.
4. CO2 contribution to the ~33°C natural greenhouse effect
Lindzen: "Even if all other greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide and methane) were to disappear, we would still be left with over 98 percent of the current greenhouse effect." Cato Review, Spring issue, 87-98, 1992; "If all CO2 were removed from the atmosphere, water vapor and clouds would still provide almost all of the present greenhouse effect." Res. Explor. 9, 191-200, 1993.
Lacis and Hansen: removing CO2, with water vapor kept fixed, would cool the Earth 5-10°C; removing CO2 and trace gases with water vapor allowed to respond would remove most of the natural greenhouse effect.
5. When will global warming and climate change be obvious?
Lindzen: I personally feel that the likelihood over the next century of greenhouse warming reaching magnitudes comparable to natural variability remains small.
Hansen: "With the climatological probability of a hot summer represented by two faces (say painted red) of a six-faced die, judging from our model by the 1990s three or four of the six die faces will be red. It seems to us that this is a sufficient 'loading' of the dice that it will be noticeable to the man in the street." J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364, 1988.
6. Planetary disequilibrium
Hansen: Earth is out of radiative equilibrium with space by at least approximately 0.5 W/m2 (absorbing more energy than it emits).
Comments: This is the most fundamental measure of the state of the greenhouse effect. Because the disequilibrium is a product of the long response time of the climate system, which in turn is a strong function of climate sensitivity, confirmation of the disequilibrium provides information on climate sensitivity and an indication of how much additional global warming is "in the pipeline" due to gases already added to the atmosphere.
This disequilibrium could be measured as the sum of the rate of heat storage in the ocean plus the net energy going into the melting of ice. Existing technology, including very precise measurements of ocean and ice sheet topography, could provide this information. |
As the opinions in the global warming debate do not seem to be converging, it seems to me that one useful thing that can be done is to clearly delineate the fundamental differences. Then, as our scientific understanding advances over the next several years, we can achieve more convincing evaluations of the global warming issue. (Stated less generously, this is a way to pin down those who keep changing their arguments.)
Table 1 summarizes chief differences that I delineated for the sake of a discussion with Richard Lindzen, who has provided the intellectual underpinnings for the greenhouse skeptics, in October 1998. I also used this list (Table 1) as the principal fodder for my "affirmative closing argument" in the debate with Pat Michaels.
Differences 1 (reality of global warming) and 2 (climate sensitivity) are very fundamental. From my perspective, strong evidence is already accumulating that weighs heavily against the skeptics contentions that there is no significant global warming and that climate sensitivity is low. These issues will become even clearer over the next several years.
Difference 3 (water vapor feedback) is related to climate sensitivity, but is so fundamental that it deserves specific attention. The topic has resisted definitive empirical evaluation, because of the poor state of water vapor measurements and the fact that tropospheric temperature change has been small in the past 20 years. Ozone depletion, which affects upper tropospheric temperatures, has also complicated this problem. This situation will change if, as I would anticipate, ozone depletion flattens and global temperature continues to rise.
Difference 4 has an academic flavor, and is perhaps not worth special efforts. But it illustrates a lack of understanding of the basic greenhouse mechanism by Lindzen.
Difference 5 is fundamental because substantial efforts to curb global warming may require that climate change first be apparent to people. If our assessments are right, we are in fact on the verge of warming being noticeable to the perceptive person-in-the-street. (See related material
Global Temperature Trends: 1998 summation and the
Commen Sense Climate Index.)
Difference 6, concerning the planetary "disequilibrium" (imbalance between incoming and outgoing radiation) is the most fundamental measure of the state of the anthropogenic greenhouse effect. The disequilibrium should exist if climate sensitivity is as high (and thus the ocean thermal response time so long) as we estimate, and if increasing greenhouse gases are the dominant climate forcing mechanism. We have presented evidence (
Hansen et al. 1997) of a disequilibrium of at least 0.5 W/m2. This imbalance is the basis by which we could predict that record global temperatures would occur within a few years, that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s, and that the first decade of next century will be warmer than the 1990s, despite the existence of natural climate variability. I do not know of a reference where Lindzen specifically addresses planetary radiation imbalance, but his positions regarding climate sensitivity and the ocean response time clearly imply a smaller, negligible imbalance.
The important point is that the planetary radiation imbalance is measurable, via the ocean temperature, because the only place this excess energy can go is into the ocean and, probably to a less extent, into the melting of ice. If our estimates are approximately right, this heat storage should not escape detection during the next several years.
In summary, all of these issues are ones that the scientific community potentially can make progress on in the near future, if they receive appropriate attention. The real global warming debate, in the sense of traditional science, can be resolved to a large extent in a reasonable time.
--------------
Something else to see:
Hansen, J., I. Fung, A. Lacis, D. Rind, S. Lebedeff, R. Ruedy, G. Russell, and P. Stone 1988. Global climate changes as forecast by Goddard Institute for Space Studies three-dimensional model. J. Geophys. Res. 93, 9341-9364.
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1988/Hansen_etal.htmlObviously I see no sign of those that used to argue (for whatever political purpose) partially against the generally accepted and thoroughly reliable
scientific experts of the world since the onset of this year and its magnificent findings and compelling data. They could only argue on one leg behind the curtain due to their being a weakness in our then current ability and records to provide empirical evidence we now have and are definitely acquiring daily - much more to support all our contentions and previous analysis based on the most scrupulous research techniques. Scientists accepting and realizing GW were right in EVERY piece of evidence and analysis.
I wonder what research evidence they the few skeptics can present against every one of these daily positively assuring research results we produce. I must admit, none whatsoever so far.
It boils down to what we know rather than what we don't. As far as its cautiously predicted by the year 2050-only as far in the future, after all, as 1950 is in the past-the global temperature could be 3 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is now. It has not been that hot for 400,000 years, a time well before modern humans evolved. By 2075 a 5-degree jump would make the planet its hottest in 4 million years, and by the end of the coming century the earth could be as hot as it was 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs disappeared.
Rapid heating on this scale will change the very face of the planet and cause chaos for the global environment, the economy, and politics. Glaciers will melt, and as seas heat and expand, the ocean will rise, drowning low-lying island nations and coastlines. Say sayonara to the Maldives, the Pacific atolls, Bangladesh, the Nile River delta, and much of the East and Gulf coasts of the United States. Tens of millions of people will be forced to move, and move again, in a kind of endless caravan, bearing conflict and disease. Adapted to specific climate zones, plants and animals will be hard pressed to move north; climate zones could shift 400 miles north by the end of the next century-far faster than trees and other plants spread after the retreat of the last glacier-and many species will become extinct. Old forests will burn, farmland will succumb to drought, and floods will increase.
As Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, warned in the late 1980s, "Earth's climate does not respond in a smooth and gradual way; rather, it responds in sharp jumps
It can all be broken down to this in simple language:
* CO2 and other greenhouse gasses act as a kind of planetary thermostat, and our current CO2 level is higher than at any time at least the last 400,000 years—and rising. This means that the Earth's planetary thermostat is stuck in the "on" position. Given these facts, we'd expect temperatures on Earth to be rising, and this is precisely what is happening now. And that is what global warming is all about.
* Over the past 100 years, the average temperature on Earth has risen by over a full degree Fahrenheit. 1 degree might not sound like much but keep in mind the Earth's average temperature had been 57 degrees. If your body temperature was raised by the same proportion, you would have a temperature of over 100 degrees. The Earth is sick with a fever.
* Science tells us that global warming is very real and is getting worse:
* The 1980's were the hottest decade on record...until the 1990's.
* The 1990's were the warmest decade in at least 1,000 years.
* 2003 was the 2nd hottest year ever recorded.
* The five hottest years on record all have occurred since 1997, and the 10 hottest since 1990.
* The planet is now warming faster than at any time in the last 10,000 years....and the rate of change is accelerating.
Worldwide Deglaciation:* Glaciers are receding increasingly rapidly worldwide. Many glaciers are now melting 10 times more quickly than a decade ago.
* Hemingway's "Snows of Kilimanjaro" will be gone within less than 15 years.
* The United Nations Environmental Program reports that Himalayan glaciers are retreating faster than anywhere on earth.
* The Khumbu Glacier has retreated 5 kilometers since Sir Edmund Hillary made the first ascent of Mt. Everest in 1950.
* The U.N. estimates that Himalayan glaciers may be completely gone within 35 years.
* The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates that 1/3 to 1/2 of all glaciers on earth will have disappeared completely by the end of this century.
Rising CO2 Levels & The Enhanced Greenhouse Effect:* Largely due to the burning of fossil fuels, we are releasing an excessive amount of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere and the Earth's temperature is rising in proportion to the increased concentrations of CO2. The Earth's temperature is going up, and this simple fact is having a profound impact on our global climate.
* CO2 and other greenhouse gasses acts as a kind of planetary thermostat, Our current CO2 level is the higher than at any time in the last 400,000 years—and rising —it means that the Earth's planetary thermostat is stuck in the "on" position. Given these facts, we'd expect temperatures on Earth to be rising, and this is precisely what is happening now. And that is what global warming is all about.
* Every year of the 1990's was among the top 15 warmest years ever recorded. And temperatures continue to climb.
* 2002 was the 2 nd hottest year ever recorded, and temperatures continue to rise.
To cite a few troubling statistics:
* The 1980s were the warmest decade on record....until the 1990's
* The 1990s were the hottest decade in the past 1000 years
* The planet is now warming faster than at any time in the last 10,000 years....and the rate of change is accelerating.
Anarctic Warming:* Near the Earth's South Pole, temperatures on the Antarctic peninsula have risen 5 degrees Fahrenheit over the past 50 years. Rocks that used to be covered with 600 meters of ice for 20,000 years now poke through the peninsula surface.
* The late 1990's witnessed the complete collapse of the Larsen A ice shelf—an area larger than the state of Rhode Island . The trend appears to be accelerating, in the summer of 2002, scientists were staggered by the size and speed of the collapse of the 12,000-year-old Larsen B ice shelf. This 3,250 square kilometer shelf—containing 700 billion tons of ice—disintegrated in just 35 days.
* Over the past 50 years, Six of the nine Antarctic peninsula 's ice shelves have disintegrated.
Warmer Oceans, Less Plankton & Ecosystem Collapse:* Warmer temperatures threaten the ocean's phytoplankton. Microscopic phytoplankton is the base of the oceanic food chain. Less phytoplankton means less food for other species, and a loss of plankton invariably means fewer fish and sea birds.
* A 2002 NASA satellite study reveals that, because of warmer temperatures, phytoplankton levels have plummeted worldwide. The greatest declines are in the Northern Pacific Ocean where summer plankton levels have dropped 30% since the 1980s. The loss of plankton due to warmer temperatures creates a domino effect that can destroy whole ecosystems.
* The entire 900 mile Aleutian island ecosystem appears to be collapsing as a loss of plankton has created a domino effect leading to a decline in the sea lion population, causing orca whales to consume an excessive number of sea otters, which led to an explosion in the sea urchin population, causing a loss of kelp beds along with the fish populations that had lived there. With the loss of plankton, the ecosystem's entire food chain had completely unraveled. As recently as the 1980s, over 100,000 otters inhabited these islands. Today there are only about 6,000 remaining. Between 1992 and 2000, the Aleutian Island otter population dropped 70%, a rate of decline that is unprecedented for any mammal population anywhere—a rate of decline that other mammals might be wise to ponder.
* While the Aleutian Islands may be geographically isolated, there is nothing isolated about the island chains' devastating experience with global warming. Another 2002 satellite study reveals that Southern Californian zooplankton had dropped 70% since the 1970s. The catastrophic results to Southern California 's oceanic ecosystem are sadly predictable.
* To make matters worse, through photosynthesis, plankton removes as much carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as do the Earth's forests. Less phytoplankton in the oceans means more heat-trapping carbon remains in the atmosphere. The failing brakes on global warming just got that much worse.
On that warmer planet, ice sheets would melt quickly, causing a rise in sea levels that would put most of Manhattan under water. The world would see more prolonged droughts and heat waves, powerful hurricanes in new areas and the likely extinction of 50 percent of species.
Matters I've previously covered in this thread fully with proof.
Heres the REAL reason for your diatribe and accusations against any and no doubt most scientists, institutions and especially Hansen.
HANSEN CLASHED WITH THE WHITE HOUSE
Hansen, who heads NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, has made waves before by saying that President Bush’s administration tried to silence him and heavily edited his and other scientists’ findings on a warmer world.
He reiterated that the United States “has passed up the opportunity” to influence the world on global warming.
The United States is the largest emitter of greenhouse gases, most notably carbon dioxide. But Bush pulled the country out of the 160-nation Kyoto Protocol in 2001, arguing that the treaty’s mandatory curbs on emissions would harm the economy.
Hansen is arguably the world's leading researcher on global warming. He's the head of NASA's top institute studying the climate. But as correspondent Scott Pelley first reported last spring, this imminent scientist says that the Bush administration is restricting who he can talk to and editing what he can say. Politicians, he says, are rewriting the science.
"In my more than three decades in the government I've never witnessed such restrictions on the ability of scientists to communicate with the public," says Hansen.
Restrictions like an e-mail Hansen's institute received from NASA in 2004. "… there is a new review process … ," the e-mail read. "The White House (is) now reviewing all climate related press releases," it continued.
Usually as you can see these sort of people who have any proof will hold back and be forced to by whatever means. Thats politics and agendas for ya if you couldn't already notice.
We try to keep politics out of science but a small bunch just don't seem to because they feel economy means welfare for them. Oh and obviously they will strap themselves onto this line because "they" will possibly have too much stash buried away to enable them to survive perfectly till they die and in their world only they count - and their businesses.
Rosy world filled with teletubbies but we and certainly as the articles say, the WORLD doesn't buy pres. Bush's' words no more.
Against the earnest, impartial, devoted and +25year professional experts.
I'll repeat what Hansen, Americas biggest expert on this said:
“This is not something that is a theory. We understand the carbon cycle well enough to say that"
adoucette
22nd September 2006 - 05:19 PM
I'm WELL aquainted with Hansen.
So are Theresa and John Kerry and Al Gore.
In endorsing Kerry's presidential bid late in the 2004 campaign, Hansen conceded that it could harm his reputation. "Dr. Hansen, 63, acknowledged that he imperiled his credibility and perhaps his job by criticizing Mr. Bush's policies in the final days of a tight presidential campaign." according to the Oct. 26, 2004, edition of the New York Times.
In a speech delivered on that same day, Hansen praised the Massachusetts senator, declaring that "John Kerry has a far better grasp than President Bush on the important issues that we face."
Three years earlier, Hansen had accepted the $250,000 Heinz Award granted by the foundation run by Kerry's wife Teresa. But the same day Hansen publicly endorsed Sen. John Kerry's presidential candidacy in 2004, the New York Times quoted Hansen as saying that the grant from the Heinz Foundation had had "no impact on my evaluation of the climate problem or on my political leanings."
And if you look at those global maps you will find that the MAJORITY of the warming is in the ARCTIC in WINTER.
Which means, as I said, its NOT Global Warming, its ARCTIC WARMING, which is QUITE a different thing.
Arthur
lengould
23rd September 2006 - 03:32 AM
QUOTE (Arthur+)
Which means, as I said, its NOT Global Warming, its ARCTIC WARMING, which is QUITE a different thing.
???
So in your evaluation, parts of the earth above +- 66.33 deg are left out of the calculations?
Neil Farbstein
23rd September 2006 - 06:57 AM
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 2 2006, 12:18 AM)
The village in question.
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/human-shishmaref.shtmlIts OBVIOUS that NO LAND can stand forever against the rising sea.
It might help to mention that the sea has been rising for ~18,000 years
It might help to mention that the rate of sea rise is not accelerating.
Oh, but THAT would ruin a good STORY.
Arthur
The north po9lar ice cap is mealting at an alarming rate. The sea level rise has had a small effect, but it caued the flood waters in New oreans to be much worse than expected. That city is dead as result of greenhouse warming. Scientists expect Europe to be plunged into a little ice age when the gulf stream shifts as a result of current chnages induced by flows fro0m the meling ice cap. What is your opinion?
Markinosis
25th September 2006 - 09:21 PM
By the year 2050-only as far in the future, after all, as 1950 is in the past-the global temperature could be 3 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is now. It has not been that hot for 400,000 years, a time well before modern humans evolved. By 2075 a 5-degree jump would make the planet its hottest in 4 million years, and by the end of the coming century the earth could be as hot as it was 65 million years ago, when the dinosaurs disappeared.
Rapid heating on this scale will change the very face of the planet and cause chaos for the global environment, the economy, and politics. Glaciers will melt, and as seas heat and expand, the ocean will rise, drowning low-lying island nations and coastlines. Say sayonara to the Maldives, Manhattan, the Pacific atolls, Bangladesh, the Nile River delta, and much of the East and Gulf coasts of the United States. Tens of millions of people will be forced to move, and move again, in a kind of endless caravan, bearing conflict and disease. Adapted to specific climate zones, plants and animals will be hard pressed to move north; climate zones could shift 400 miles north by the end of the next century-far faster than trees and other plants spread after the retreat of the last glacier-and many species will become extinct. Old forests will burn, farmland will succumb to drought, and floods will increase.
QUOTE (adoucette+)
I'm WELL aquainted with Hansen.
So are Theresa and John Kerry and Al Gore.
Then you would know that hes been saying this for OVER two decades!
And if he did take up some offer so to prove himself and alarm the international community in ways they understand, so what?
Thats the conventional way everything goes through.
What you leave out from Hansens profile is this:
Old but relevant - November-December 1999
In 1988 Hansen made the greenhouse effect world news when he told a Senate committee, "The greenhouse effect has been detected, and it is changing our climate now." In the uproar that followed, Hansen got tremendous, well, heat from industry, anti-enviro talk show hosts, and politicians, as well as from many fellow scientists. But not only was Hansen right then, he has been right so many times since that he has assumed a prophetic stature rare in history. Michael Oppenheimer, chief scientist for the Environmental Defense Fund and an author of a major United Nations report on climate change, says of Hansen's work, "His science is impeccable, and his prescience is unparalleled." In other words, Nostradamus, get lost.
First proposed more than 100 years ago, the greenhouse effect theory postulates that manmade emissions of carbon dioxide and other trace gases act like glass in a greenhouse surrounding the earth. (The term greenhouse effect is really a misnomer; the carbon dioxide and water vapor naturally present in the atmosphere already function like greenhouse glass. In popular usage, greenhouse effect refers to the problem that comes with adding manmade gases.)
Essential to life, carbon is found in everything alive or that ever lived. In 1800, before the Industrial Revolution began in earnest, the atmosphere naturally contained 280 parts per million (ppm) of carbon dioxide. Then, with the eventual large-scale burning of coal, oil, and gas-literally fossil fuels, the entombed remains of plants and animals that lived millions of years ago-atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide accelerated. Ice-core samples from 1910 show that the atmosphere contained 295 ppm of carbon dioxide, and in 1958, when C. Douglas Keeling of the Scripps Institute of Oceanography began his landmark annual measurements at Hawaii's Mauna Loa Observatory, the reading was 315 ppm. By 1998 the reading had climbed to 365 ppm.
Hansen: With a scholarship and money saved from his paper route, he went to the University of Iowa, graduating with distinction in 1963 after majoring in math and physics "because that's what I could do well." He went on to get a master's degree in astronomy in the physics department. "It was a very stimulating research environment," he says. The department even had its own satellite, and the chairman was James Van Allen, the discoverer of the radiation belts around the earth that bear his name. In 1967 Hansen got his Ph.D. with a dissertation on the atmosphere of Venus, which he wrote while serving as a graduate assistant at the Institute for Astrophysics in Kyoto and in the astronomy department at the University of Tokyo.
After earning his doctorate, Hansen received a job offer from the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) and was so excited that he immediately drove to New York without sleeping. Except for one year, 1969-70, spent at the Leiden Observatory in the Netherlands, where he met his wife, Anniek, he has been at Goddard ever since. In 1976 he was happily working as the principal investigator on the Pioneer Venus Orbiter experiment when a Harvard postdoctoral researcher asked his help in calculating the greenhouse effect of manmade gases in the earth's atmosphere. "It didn't take long until I was captivated by this greenhouse problem," Hansen says. He resigned from the Venus project to work on the earth, "because I thought it was even more exciting to study a planetary atmosphere that was changing-scientifically exciting and also of practical importance."
Hansen says the contrasting atmospheres on Venus and Mars "provided the best proof at the time of the reality of the greenhouse effect [on the earth]. Mars, which has only a thin atmosphere of greenhouse gases, is only a few degrees warmer than it would be if it had no atmosphere. Venus, on the other extreme, has a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and such a strong greenhouse effect that you could bake pizza on its surface. In fact, the pizza would burn, because the temperature is about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. The earth has an intermediate amount of greenhouse gases, which keeps the surface a comfortable 60 degrees warmer than it would be without these gases. For each of these planets, the amount of warming is in good agreement with what we calculate for the greenhouse effect."
Hansen put together a team to build the GISS 1-D (one-dimensional) computer climate model, later superseded by a 3-D model. A climate model, designed to simulate the earth's climate, is a set of equations with numerical values allotted to such processes as absorption of solar energy, radiation of heat energy, ocean currents, and transfer of heat and moisture by winds.
Greenhouse skeptics, including critics ideologically hostile to the very concept of global warming, question the validity of models. "Sometimes the media, and global-warming critics, leave the impression that predictions of climate change are based mainly on such models, but that conclusion is naive and misleading," Hansen says. "In reality, expectations of climate change are based on an understanding of the climate system, which derives mainly from observational data. Climate models are just one of our tools."
In 1981 hansen, newly named chief of the Goddard Institute for Spaces Studies, and seven colleagues published a paper in Science in which they predicted, "The combined warming of carbon dioxide and trace gases should exceed natural temperature variability in the 1980s and cause the mean global temperature to rise above the maximum of the late 1930s." This ran counter to the scientific wisdom of the time; climatologists generally believed that the earth, which had been cooling since 1940, would continue to do so. But the GISS team's prediction would prove correct: Global cooling not only stopped, but the decade of the 1980s was the hottest ever recorded up to that time.
The New York Times ran a front-page story about the GISS study, and along with The Washington Post used it in a lead editorial about U.S. energy policy, then heavily committed to the greater use of coal and other carbon-based fuels. The Times stated, "The greenhouse effect is too uncertain to warrant total alteration of energy policy. But this latest study offers fair warning; that such a change may yet be required is no longer unimaginable."
In the first of the "don't listen to the message, shoot the messenger"(hint: Arthur) reactions that Hansen was to experience, angry officials in the Department of Energy reneged on their promise to add to the GISS research budget and also warned an independent researcher that he would lose funding if he used results from the GISS model. Hansen had to cut both staff and research until he was able to scrounge money from the Environmental Protection Agency a year later.
As a result of the 1981 study, Rafe Pomerance, who was then president of the group Friends of the Earth, arranged for Hansen to testify about the greenhouse effect at congressional hearings during the late 1980s. Although Pomerance was "never the person in the news," Hansen says, "he is the one who deserves most of the credit-if you consider the results positive-for the attention generated."
Even so, the greenhouse effect did not generate all that much attention until 1988, and then only after Hansen told Pomerance that he was opposed to testifying in November because the weather was too cool to get public attention. "Moreover, I had decided to testify as a private citizen in 1987 because I could not agree with all the changes which the Office of Management and Budget had instructed me to include in my testimony," Hansen says. "That sort of bickering with management takes a lot of psychic energy, because it's hard to say what damage it causes to our research and institutional support."
On June 23, 1988, with the temperature reaching a record 101 degrees in Washington, D.C., and much of the country suffering from a searing drought, Hansen made three main points to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources: "First, that the world was getting warmer on decadal time scales, which I said could be stated with 99 percent confidence. Second, that with a high degree of confidence I believed there was a causal relationship with an increased greenhouse effect. And third, that in our climate model there was a tendency for an increase in the frequency and the severity of heat waves and droughts with global warming." Besieged by the media afterward, he said, "It's time to stop waffling so much and say that the greenhouse effect is here and affecting our climate now." Suddenly global warming-and Hansen-became world news.
Science intruded and altered by POLITICS: The Bush White House complained to NASA. Also, many scientists, even some who privately agreed with Hansen, accused him of stretching the facts. Science ran an article called "Hansen vs. the World on the Greenhouse Threat," and the business magazine Barron's quoted the climatologist Reid Bryson of the University of Wisconsin as calling Hansen's testimony a "phenomenal snow job"-an odd metaphor given that the subject was global warming. Faced with this criticism and serious personal problems (his father died, and his wife had breast cancer, though she survived), Hansen did not back down. Scientifically, he was again ahead of his time-by seven years, in this case. In 1995 the hundreds of scientists on the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change concluded that "the balance of evidence suggests that there is a discernible human influence on global climate."
When Hansen went to testify again in 1989, an official in the White House Office of Management and Budget changed his testimony so as to negate the conclusion that global warming would cause the hydrologic cycle to intensify, resulting in periods of excessive precipitation and severe drought. The upshot: a rerun of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, with Hansen, in the role of Jimmy Stewart, protesting publicly, and Senator Al Gore lambasting the Bush administration for "science by fraud." An editorial cartoon in The Des Moines Register showed President George Bush muffling Hansen's mouth with a handkerchief that was labeled "The Whitehouse Effect," and a Seattle Post-Intelligencer cartoon compared an official in the Office of Management and Budget to an inquisitor of Galileo.
The year 1990 set a new record for the global temperature, and a year later, when Mount Pinatubo, the Philippine volcano, erupted, it gave Hansen the opportunity to make "a nice check on climate models" for skeptics. The eruption, the greatest in this century, injected 20 megatons of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, where winds formed it into a global blanket of fine sulfuric-acid droplets. Accordingly, Hansen predicted that the global temperature would cool temporarily before the aerosols returned to the earth. He was right again, and in 1995 the rewarming earth had a higher annual record temperature than it had had in 1990.
Regarding the heat and drought that plagued much of the United States this past summer-last July was the hottest on record-Hansen says, "Droughts and heat waves have a high degree of natural fluctuation, so you can't blame a given cause for a particular drought, and that's what I said in 1988. But the frequency is likely to increase with global warming. Whether it's a modest increase or a large change, like back in the 1930s, or more extreme than that, is hard to say until we can exactly understand these patterns."
Hansen notes that most previous annual global record temperatures were only a few hundredths of a degree warmer than the previous record, "but in 1998 the temperature was three-tenths of a degree warmer." He adds, "It has become very difficult for anyone to argue that observed global warming is natural variability. We have good reason for being able to say that the world will be warmer by about a quarter of a degree in the next decade. It's the same reason we had 10 years ago when we said that the 1990s would be warmer than the 1980s: The planet is out of equilibrium." The ONLY thing you prove is that the government is CORRUPT here and is NEVER to be believed against the word of professional expert scientists who have the utmost honour. Like Hansen UNLIKE his few opponents.
QUOTE
A 20-inch rise in sea level, predicted by 2100, could inundate 5,000 square miles of dry land and drown 15 to 60 percent of our (US) coastal wetlands. Most regions would have a net loss of wetlands (wetlands gained are subtracted from wetlands lost), the anomaly being the West Coast. If no action is taken, Louisiana could lose as much as 3,500 square miles of dry and wet land. By some estimates, a one-foot rise in sea level along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts is likely by 2050 and could even occur by 2025. A two-foot rise is likely in the next century, and a four-foot rise is possible.
Source: Environmental Protection Agency
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| A 20-inch rise in sea level, predicted by 2100, could inundate 5,000 square miles of dry land and drown 15 to 60 percent of our (US) coastal wetlands. Most regions would have a net loss of wetlands (wetlands gained are subtracted from wetlands lost), the anomaly being the West Coast. If no action is taken, Louisiana could lose as much as 3,500 square miles of dry and wet land. By some estimates, a one-foot rise in sea level along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts is likely by 2050 and could even occur by 2025. A two-foot rise is likely in the next century, and a four-foot rise is possible. |
Source: Environmental Protection Agency
The sum and substance of "Hot Nights in the City," a report on the impact that global warming could have on the New York metropolitan region. Commissioned by the Environmental Defense Fund and carried out by the Center for Climate Systems Research at Columbia University, the report was published last June.
Although the report is cautious about predicting the future, it says that two basic consequences are "probably inevitable" in the region: more warming and a further increase in sea level. For New York City itself, the report projects temperature increases of more than 4 degrees Fahrenheit for the 2050s and 6 to 10 degrees for the 2090s. As early as the 2010s, the average number of days that top 90 degrees in the city is projected to more than double, from 13 a year to 27 a year. By 2050 the city could swelter through 47 days of 90-degree weather, and 80 such days by the 2090s.
The report also predicts an increase in the frequency of unusually warm nights and notes, "The combination of extremely hot days and unusually warm nights can be deadly. . . . The most recent results suggest that by the year 2050, New York's heat-related mortality will increase by between 50 percent and 200 percent" over current levels.
There are other health impacts to consider. An increase of 5 to 9 degrees could bring "a significant northern shift in outbreaks of two mosquito-borne diseases, western equine encephalomyelitis and St. Louis encephalitis." Indeed, late this summer, for the first time ever, another mosquito-borne disease, the rare West Nile virus, was discovered in the city. By early September it had killed several people in Queens and Brooklyn and sickened dozens more. While weather conditions in the Baked Apple-mild winter, wet spring, and hot, dry summer-favored the spread of the virus, Duane J. Gubler, M.D., of the federal Centers for Disease Control told The New York Times that global warming had "nothing to do" with the outbreak.
In addition, says the report, high temperatures and temperature inversions would increase concentrations of ground-level ozone, putting anyone with chronic respiratory illness, and even healthy children and adults, at risk. In high concentrations, ozone "irritates and injures cells lining the respiratory system, causing eye and nose irritation, coughing, and generally impaired lung function."
Ever since the last Ice Age peaked 18,000 years ago, and the glaciers retreated from New York, sea level has generally been rising as the ocean warms and expands. Although much of the local rise is due to land subsidence-the result of geological processes-sea level is rising at the rate of 0.11 inches a year in New York City.
Nor'easters are far more common than hurricanes in New York, and in December 1992 a nor'easter flooded parts of lower Manhattan, shutting down the city's subways and the underground trains to New Jersey and drowning stretches of the FDR Drive along the East River. Flooding also closed LaGuardia Airport, cut commuter-railroad service, forced the evacuation of seaside communities in New Jersey and on Long Island, washed away beaches, and destroyed more than 150 houses.
Consider that a gentle preview, because higher sea levels will cause storm surges to intrude farther inland. In lower Manhattan, storm surges coming from the harbor or the Hudson River would submerge the foundations of Battery Park City and the World Trade Center, while the East River would do a number on the FDR Drive, Bellevue Medical Center, and East Harlem.
Warming causes an intensification of the hydrologic cycle. "Extremely heavy precipitation events"-more than 2 inches of rain or equivalent snow in 24 hours-have increased in number as the United States has grown warmer. But contrary to what one might expect, warming also increases the likelihood of drought, because soil dries more quickly. With much higher temperatures and little change in precipitation, severe "100-year" droughts could begin to occur every 3 to 11 years sometime in the next century.
Experts guide: Climate change is with us. A decade ago, it was conjecture. Now the future is unfolding before our eyes. NewScientist Special Report on Global Warming and many linksStart thinking how to cope with change:
The debate on global warming is over. Present levels of carbon dioxide--nearing 400 parts per million (ppm) in the earth's atmosphere--are higher than they have been at any time in the past 650,000 years and could easily surpass 500 ppm by the year 2050 without radical intervention.Climate Repair ManualThanks!
adoucette
25th September 2006 - 11:02 PM
QUOTE
Hansen says the contrasting atmospheres on Venus and Mars "provided the best proof at the time of the reality of the greenhouse effect [on the earth]. Mars, which has only a thin atmosphere of greenhouse gases, is only a few degrees warmer than it would be if it had no atmosphere. Venus, on the other extreme, has a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and such a strong greenhouse effect that you could bake pizza on its surface. In fact, the pizza would burn, because the temperature is about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. The earth has an intermediate amount of greenhouse gases, which keeps the surface a comfortable 60 degrees warmer than it would be without these gases. For each of these planets, the amount of warming is in good agreement with what we calculate for the greenhouse effect."
ROTFLMAO
Arthur
Markinosis
25th September 2006 - 11:16 PM
Nothing relevant to say obviously.
I'll tell you what is Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A5s Off:
When Hansen went to testify again in 1989, an official in the White House Office of Management and Budget changed his testimony so as to negate the conclusion that global warming would cause the hydrologic cycle to intensify, resulting in periods of excessive precipitation and severe drought. The upshot: a rerun of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, with Hansen, in the role of Jimmy Stewart, protesting publicly, and Senator Al Gore lambasting the Bush administration for "science by fraud."
Unlucky with the diversions.
You rolled on the floor for no apparent reason. What a waste.
adoucette
26th September 2006 - 04:07 AM
Actually you have posted nothing of interest, which is why I haven't even bothered to refute your pages of pompous BS.
I pointed you to links where this HAD BEEN discussed and all you do is post more Global Warming BS taken out of context.
I point out where the articles are bogus and you just post more bogus articles.
Post on, but don't think anyone REALLY gives a damn.
Though you ARE good for a LAUGH.
All together now
THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.
Arthur
Markinosis
27th September 2006 - 02:01 AM
[gobsmacked, abusive poster above resorting to repeated habitual childish personal attacks and dirtying science with political nonsense, with a 'holier than thou' very disturbed attitude, condescendingly deriding all scientists but himself and a larger than life ego: IGNORED!!!] (PS: check with near enough everyone else this nutcase attacks)
I've given you enough benefit of doubt and put up with your BS & attacks long enough. You've reflected your intelligence or rather the lack of it very clearly, an endless number of times. I dont know what sort of man you are acting so weird, nancy and sulking on nearly every other thread I've seen you post on. Insecure to say the least.
This is SCIENCE not some nursery game you like playing. I will ignore YOU from now on as you have provided zero substance & useless spam repeatedly here. Apologize for your behavior or get lost where your not wanted with your snidey remarks. I have no time for your petty games. You dont own this website or science contrary to how you act.
Continued... =>
Global Warming for healthy people and scientists: latest supportTuesday, 26 September 2006, 17:13 GMT 18:13 UK
World 'warmest for 12,000 years'QUOTE
Earth has warmed by 0.6C (1F) over the past 30 years, research shows
The world is the warmest it has been in the last 12,000 years as a result of rapid warming over the past 30 years, a study has suggested.
Nasa climatologists said the Earth had warmed by about 0.2C (0.4F) in each of the last three decades.
Pollution from human activity was pushing the world towards dangerous levels of climate change, they warned.
As a result, plant and animal species were struggling to migrate fast enough to cooler regions, they said.
"The evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," warned James Hansen, head of Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, New York.
Ice melt
The study by researchers from Nasa, Columbia University and the University of California at Santa Barbara (UCSB), showed that warming was greatest at high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, and was more pronounced over land than the oceans.
The reason behind the rise in temperatures in this region was a result of a loss in snow and ice cover, the researchers said.
As the Earth warmed, melting snow and ice exposed dark land surfaces which absorbed more energy from the Sun, resulting in more warming - a process known as "positive feedback".
Warming was less over the ocean than over the land because of the great heat capacity of the deep-mixing ocean, which causes warming to occur more slowly there.
Simon Tett, a scientist at the UK's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research, said the findings supported Dr Hansen's earlier predictions, which had been criticised in some quarters.
"The results of this study show that James Hansen's predictions of the late '80s are consistent with what has happened," Dr Tett said.
"Modelling has moved on since then, but the idea that early predictions were done to cause panic and were wrong has been proved to be not the case."
Ocean data
The study also showed that the recent warming had brought temperatures within about 1C (2F) of the estimated maximum of the past one million years.
How the greenhouse effect works
The Nasa researchers, alongside a team from UCSB, made the comparison by looking at past tropical ocean surface temperatures.
They did this through measurements of magnesium content in the shells of microscopic sea surface animals found in ocean sediment.
This study showed that the Western Equatorial region of the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean was as warm, if not warmer, since the end of the last major ice age, approximately 12,000 years ago.
The researchers said this findings was important because these ocean areas were indicative of global temperature shifts.
Keith Briffa, from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit, said the tropical ocean regions were among the more reliable areas from which to infer large-scale temperature changes.
"If you were looking for somewhere that was indicative of global average temperatures then you would go for the tropical oceans because modern studies based on instrumental records show that these are places that seem to represent relatively accurately global temperature variations over the last century."
But Professor Briffa said using data such as magnesium content in shells, otherwise known as "proxy data", over long periods raised a number of potential problems.
"The assumptions that we base our interpretations on are more likely to hold up when applied to data since the last ice age, or the last few millennia. The further back you go though, the more likely it is that the story is more complicated and the uncertainties in our interpretations of proxy data are likely to be much greater," Professor Briffa added.
"One of the big problems we have is that when you are looking at hundreds of thousands of years or longer timescales, we have no direct data to calibrate the proxy records rigorously."
Extinction fears
The team warned that the rate animal and plant migration was not keeping pace with recent temperature rises.
"That means that further global warming of 1C defines a critical level," Dr Hansen said.
"If warming is kept to less than that, effects of global warming may be relatively manageable. But if [it] reaches two or three degrees, we will likely see changes that make Earth a different planet to the one we know," he added.
"If we do not slow down the rate of global warming, many species are likely to become extinct. In effect, we are pushing them off the planet."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5381456.stm(to other readers, sorry for the reality check to this one guy)
adoucette
27th September 2006 - 04:24 AM
Gobsmacked?
So I take it you are a Brit?
Seems likely, as most there seem to have been force fed the BBC Kool Aid.
Sorry to tell you but the NSA showed that that previous bit was hype just last month.
But hey, keep on crocheting your Mann Hockey Stick Coaster set.
Science could CARE LESS about your POLITICS.
Name ONE SPECIE that has gone extinct because of CLIMATE over the last three decades.
ONE.
Oh, and YOU NEVER answered why if this was such a devastating problem that most of the world was not to be bothered solving the problem and in fact was ENCOURAGED to keep making the problem worse.
Oh, and WHAT is YOUR SOLUTION to the "crisis", since even the IPCC has said (and its fairly obvious) that Kyoto will do NOTHING?
Arthur
lengould
28th September 2006 - 02:09 PM
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 27 2006, 04:24 AM)
Gobsmacked?
So I take it you are a Brit?
Seems likely, as most there seem to have been force fed the BBC Kool Aid.
Just lost all cred, A. Sorry, gotta call you on that nonsense. I'm now of the opinion that your frantic attacks on climate science are based on your fear for the coal industry in your home state.
mergatroid
14th December 2006 - 03:35 PM
Wow. Markinosis, adoucette, you guys really get into the discussion like none I've ever seen. I've sometimes thought that because our solar system takes approximately 200 million plus years to revolve once around the Milky Way, maybe during the course of one of these revolutions the solar system enters into some "bad" area of space and cause deviations of weather, or causing unknown phenomena and earthly perturbations.
I am still stunned whenever I think there was a time when most of the present water on earth was at one time locked in ice and that, over a long period of time liquid, flowing water eventually carved those deep canyons into the earth. Maybe those canyons are hundreds of millions of years old, but what a freakin' cool setting and stage to write a story with. No humans were around during these times but ..., who cares! It's excellent fodder for my imagination.
TECALIFORNIA
14th December 2006 - 06:03 PM
Has anyone ever thought that the inflation of the universe might be the result of negative space outside the boundary of the universe, like a balloon in a vacuum? Gravity would slow the growth in the beginning but the expansion would continue then increase as the amount of positive space, energy, creation or whatever increases inside. Why dark matter and energy?
Smithy
1st January 2007 - 10:43 AM
QUOTE (mergatroid+Dec 14 2006, 03:35 PM)
Wow. Markinosis, adoucette, you guys really get into the discussion like none I've ever seen.
Markinosis certainly posts some very good references, not quite so with adoucette even though he says "Everything I mentioned I've discussed on this board (with links, pictures etc)."
See epa.gov/climatechange/science/images/co2-temp.gif
Note this EPA page was last updated on Thursday, December 21st, 2006, and contains a far more balanced presentation than I expected. Are we already starting to see the new Senator Boxer's influence on that web site now that InHofe (hoax) has been replaced (I guess he went off on his Christmas break...)?
This image is very interesting:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/Holocene_Temperature_Variations.png
Note that due to 12,000 years being covered (ie. the Holocene), the very sharp rise to about +0.45 C in 2004 AD cannot be shown except:
- by indicating it on the Temperature Anomaly axis.
- adding an insert for the past 2000 years, which clearly shows the Medievil Warm Period at about +0.0 C in about 1000 AD.
adoucette
1st January 2007 - 03:33 PM
Now, Smithy, please explain to all of us HOW the climate reverses?
Because looking at the chart the problem is the temperature begins its reversals (both up and down) while the CO2 is of the wrong magnitude. For your analysis to be correct the change in CO2 would have to PROCEED the temperature change, and proceed it by a fairly long time, but that is obviously not the case. Now for the interesting part, the graph that has been posted several times, shows two trend lines, one for Ppm CO2 and one for Global Temp. Its OBVIOUS that the two are correlated as the two trend lines change relatively uniformly. But what is actually much harder to find is a higher resolution graph that superimposes the two trend lines.
A recent study of the Vostok data was done by Caillon et al. (2003). They measured the isotopic composition of argon which they argue, because it is inert and the isotopes are temperature selective, is a better climate proxy, thus they were able to generate better estimates about the timing of CO2 and climate change. They took a section of the Vostok ice core for the period called Glacial Termination III (~ 240,000 years ago). The results of their tedious but meticulous analysis led them to conclude that
"the CO2 increase lagged Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years." Also See the following for a similar analysis derived though different proxies and analyis:
http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~meteo/MUDELSEE/publ/pdf/lag.pdfThe phase relations (leads/lags) among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume are key to understanding the causes of glacial-interglacial (G-IG) climate transitions. Comparing the CO2 record with other proxy variables from the Vostok ice core and stacked marine oxygen isotope records, allows the phase relations among these variables, over the last four G-IG cycles, to be estimated.
Lagged, generalized least-squares regression provides an efficient and precise technique for this estimation. Bootstrap resampling allows account to be taken of measurement and timescale errors.
Over the full 420 ka of the Vostok record, CO2 variations lag behind atmospheric temperature changes in the Southern Hemisphere by 1.3+/-1.0 ka.You can actually see this in the following graph, one of the few you will find where the two graphs are superimposed. Moving from the past to the present you will notice the temperature line slightly proceeds the CO2 line.
http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/IceCores1.gifThe only REASONABLE assumption is that it is primarily the temperature of the surface waters of the Oceans that is causing the change in the CO2 level.
Why?
Well to start with the area of the World's Oceans is 361 million km²
The total volume is 1370 million km³ with an average depth is 3790 meters.
The total mass of the hydrosphere is about 1.4 × 10**21 kg
While the total mass of the atmosphere is but 5.1 x 10**18 kg.
Which is why when you are diving and you are about 10 meters below the surface of the ocean, the mass of the water above you is the same as the 100 kilometers of atmosphere above the water, you are now at twice atmospheric pressure.
Now consider that the oceans with almost 300 times the mass of the atmosphere have an average temperature of but 3.9 degrees C. While the average temperature of the atmosphere is a relatively balmy 14 degrees C. But here's the rub, at any given time the Oceans surface temperature, the area where heat exchange takes place can be significantly warmer then the average. In fact, the majority of the very cold water is deep in the oceans, while the surface temperatures (as evidenced by the ENSO, PDO, NAO, Conveyor etc) can be quite warm. These warm layers are typically much deeper then 33 feet so something like the PDO in its warm phase has a much more immediate and profound impact on the climate then does a few extra ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere.
The issue is quite straight forward if you think about it. The oceans take THOUSANDS of years to mix the surface water with the deep ocean water, but at any given time the surface layers of the oceans can change temperature dramatically. We have long known of the shorter, more intense and localized cycles the oceans go through, El Nino/La Nina being one of the most well known. And it is absolutely a fact that a strong El Nino or La Nina will have dramatic and far reaching climatic effects. The "Warmest Year on Record" 1998, was also one which just happened to have one of the largest, strongest El Ninos on record as well. Then we have the North Atlantic Oscillation which causes distinct weather patterns in Europe. Recently, two oceanographers; Keeling and Whorf found evidence for an 1,800-year cycle. The cycle arises primarily because of gradual changes in the alignments of the sun, moon, and earth, but work is ongoing to show how the Gas Giants also may impact us on even longer intervals.
Their research is the first to provide an explanation for nearly periodic millennial changes in temperature seen in ice and deep-sea sedimentary core records. Four years previously they have reported on the effects of shorter cycles of tidal forcing on global temperature at periods near 18, 90, and 180 years.
Their research suggests that strong oceanic tides drive changes in climate due to their ability to increase vertical mixing in the ocean and thereby transport cold ocean water to the surface.
Strong tides elicit cool conditions on the sea surface, which in turn lowers temperatures in air and over land, resulting in cooler climates around the planet, often accompanied by drought conditions.
Weak tides lead to less cold water mixing and result in warmer periods on Earth.
Hey, guess what, that agrees with BASIC Physics. We KNOW if we warm a solution of water and carbonic acid that the CO2 will outgas as the water warms and we know if we cool the solution more CO2 will disolve into it.
Works with Sodas too. Open a very cold coke, small fizz. Open a warm coke, SPILLOVER.
So NO MAGIC is needed to see how the rising and falling of the surface temperature of the oceans changes the Atmospheric CO2 concentration.
Postulating that the earth is now so UNSTABLE that relatively small changes in a relatively minor GHG can cause climatic upheaval in a relatively short time frame simply does not agree with either the physics or the observational data. What one needs if one is to believe that a change of just PARTS PER MILLION of CO2 in the atmosphere is, if not magic, at least a workable hypothesis, one that answers at least the basic questions the recent analysis of the ice cores bring up:
WHAT EXTERNAL FACTOR CAUSES THE CO2 TO RISE AND FALL?
HOW DO THESE RELATIVELY SMALL CHANGES IN A MINOR GHG CAUSE SUCH DRASTIC TEMPERATURE CHANGES CONSIDERING THE SMALL DIFFEERENCE IN THE RADIATIVE FORCING OF CO2 AT THE DIFFERENT CONCENTRATIONS?
(CO2 absorbtion of IR energy is not linear, as the ppm value increases beyond about 100 ppm the absorbtion per additional ppm decreases until the CO2 reaches IR saturation at which point, additional CO2 has almost no additional impact on air temperatures. Why this is so is that CO2 absorbs IR radiation in a narrow band. Once ALL the outgoing radiation in that band is absorbed adding more CO2 has little increasing impact (as long as CO2 remains a minor gas, the physics are quite different if our atmosphere had say the level of CO2 that we have of Nitrogen, the previous is in fact a gross simplification of atmospheric physics, but the essentials are correct)
HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A FEW HUNDRED PPM CHANGE IN ATMOSPHERIC CO2 CAN CAUSE SUCH DRASTIC CHANGES IN THE CLIMATE? WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE OF LONG PERIODS OF RISING TEMPS AND FALLING CO2 OR FALLING CO2 AND RISING TEMPS.
WHY DO LEVELS OF ONLY 300 PPM CAUSE A DRAMATIC WARMING WHILE WE KNOW OF LONG PERIODS OF TIME WHEN THE CO2 LEVEL WAS A FACTOR OR MORE HIGHER, YET THE TEMPERAURES WERE ONLY A FEW DEGREES WARMER?
CONVERSELY, IF CO2 IS THE PRIME DRIVING FACTOR FOR THE CLIMATE, HOW DID THE EARTH GO THROUGH ICE AGES WHILE THE CO2 LEVELS WERE A FACTOR GREATER THEN NOW?
Now as to human impact and Kyoto targets. The approach to modifing the Earth's climate by making what amounts to insignificant changes in the ppm of CO2 should make Cervante's roll over in his grave. There never was such a large windmill the world was eager to joust with!
The mass of the atmosphere is estimated to be 5.137 x 1018 kg
1 ppmv of CO2 in the atmosphere is equal to 2.13 Gt of carbon.
Each ppmv represents 2.13 X 10**15 grams, or 2.13 petagrams of carbon (PgC)
During the period of 1850 to 2000:
Of the 3 major ways man adds CO2 to the atmosphere:
Land-use changes added ~154 PgC to the atmosphere.
Combustion of fossil fuels released another ~282 PgC (64%)
Cement manufacture released ~5.5 PgC
Total Carbon Man contributed to the atmosphere = ~441.5 PgC.
CO2 concentrations rose from 288 ppmv to 369.5 ppmv, or a net increase of 81.5 ppmv
81.5 ppmv at 2.13 PgC per ppmv is equal to an atmospheric increase of 174 PgC.
So, though man released 441.5 PgC into the atmosphere in the last 150 years only 174 PgC, or roughly 40% of it remains there. The other 60% was taken up by the biosphere, land and oceans.
The level of 369.5 ppmv of carbon in the atmosphere equals 787 PgC, but of that only 174 PgC remains from all that man has been added since 1850.
Since 64% of our Carbon releases come from Fossil fuels, then of the 174 PgC only 111 PgC came from oil, coal or natural gas
So of the 787 PgC atmospheric total only 111 PgC, or roughly 14% of the CO2 in the atmosphere came from Fossil fuel.
Yet you think minor reductions in Fossil fuel use back to 1990 levels will alter this?
Friggin Amazing.
Here, have another cup of the Kool-Aid.
Arthur
Zephir
1st January 2007 - 09:22 PM
How the americanized demagogue arguments against Kyoto protocol: USC geologists:
humans cause 2% of warming,
Farm animals emit 20% of greenhouse gases.
The first article is marginalizing the human influence to global warning as such, the second one introduces the idea, the developing country are responsible for the global warming as well. Very interesting, indeed....
Zephir: USC geologists: humans cause 2% of warming .... farm animals emit 20% of greenhouse gases... LOL... this is really science for me...
Motl: Dear Zephir, these two figures come from different authors, but even if they did not, there would be no absolutely no contradiction in between them simply because greenhouse gases are simply not that important for the warming. You must be a making a really painfully simple error if you think that there is a contradiction. Try to think again.
Zephir: ...simply because greenhouse gases are simply not that important for the warming.... And the proof?
Motl: Dear Zephir, I don't have a proof and I am not even 100% sure whether it's true. I was just explaining that the statement "LOL this is really science for me" was very dumb in the given context.
This is the result of introducing the politic into serious science. Question remains, if we can believe a single word of such people, the "dear" salutation the less.
lengould
2nd January 2007 - 10:07 PM
Note:
http://www.physorg.com/news77378053.htmlRe: Arthur's "(CO2 absorbtion of IR energy is not linear, as the ppm value increases beyond about 100 ppm the absorbtion per additional ppm decreases until the CO2 reaches IR saturation at which point, additional CO2 has almost no additional impact on air temperatures. Why this is so is that CO2 absorbs IR radiation in a narrow band. Once ALL the outgoing radiation in that band is absorbed adding more CO2 has little increasing impact (as long as CO2 remains a minor gas, the physics are quite different if our atmosphere had say the level of CO2 that we have of Nitrogen, the previous is in fact a gross simplification of atmospheric physics, but the essentials are correct) "
is almost as gross as it is a simplification.

In fact anyone who has observed a chart of earth's real radiation will see that whereas Arthur's theory should show a fairly sharp square notch in re-radiation at the CO2 frequency with the notch approaching maximum depth eg. little more re-radiation remaining to be intercepted by CO2, in fact there is a broad V shaped notch with no indication that the sides of it are even squaring off yet, indicating that CO2 has a LOT more potential to contribute to the greenhouse effect. I'd assume the reason for this may be the well-known fact that THE IR FREQUENCY WHICH A CO2 MOLECULE INTERACTS WITH CHANGES AS THE PRESSURE CHANGES, meaning that the radiation intercepted at sea level is not the same as that intercepted in the stratosphere.
In any case, I'd recommend not taking too much of what Arthur declares as truth without several handfulls of salt. I'm not suggesting that any doomsday is about to befall all life on earth, just that mankind should just be a little more cautious about randomly fouling up the only habitat we know of which can support our species. In 1960 the US made do with about 1/15th the electricity it now uses. Going back to 14/15th's as Kyoto suggested would kill you guys?
adoucette
3rd January 2007 - 02:14 AM
You fail to notice that the MAJORITY of the atmosphere is at ~ the same pressure, so any minor change in IR absorption by pressure is not an issue.
The amount of CO2 in the Stratosphere is NOT a factor in GW.
As to your
QUOTE
In 1960 the US made do with about 1/15th the electricity it now uses. Going back to 14/15th's as Kyoto suggested would kill you guys?
Total BS.
Check your figures.
Note that we have been averaging ~2% increase per year since 1994, in 2005 our 4,054,688 (thousand megawatts) equaled a 24% increase over 1994's 3,247,522 total.
Also, while doing so, keep in mind the PER CAPITA aspects of a GROWING POPULATION.
Sheesh.
Arthur
adoucette
3rd January 2007 - 05:10 PM
Len
1960 US electrical production = 755 Billion KWH
2005 US electrical production = 4,054 Billion KWH
1960 population = 180 Million
2005 population = 300 Million
But comparing electrical use between periods 45 years apart is SILLY.
Besides the dramatic population difference, the switch from gas/oil/wood as a PRIMARY domestic/industrial source of energy to use of Electrical as a PRIMARY source is masked.
You have to look at ALL energy use, not take one out of context.
Now as far as Kyoto, that 14/15ths is BS.
Kyoto calls for the US to reduce CO2 to 6% below 1990 levels.
This is roughly equivalent to cutting back energy use to the levels of 1987 by 2012.
The problem is that by 2005 the population of the US has already grown by 60 Million people, or 25% from 1987.
That's the EQUIVALENT OF TWO CANADAs.
Kyoto is calling for this MUCH LARGER larger population to get by on MUCH LESS energy per person.
This would require ENORMOUS reductions in energy use or ENORMOUS switch to Nuclear/Wind/Solar.
But ALL OF THESE are prohibitively expensive and considering the siting issues and or build/install time, switching to these CAN'T be done in the time frame nor does the US Federal Govt have the authority to MANDATE this switch.
The ONLY method available is via TAXATION and the CO2 TAX would have to be VERY STEEP to FORCE this change.
You see any politicians with a platform based on MAJOR INCREASES in TAXES as a way to get elected?
Oh, by the way, the reason Canada will NOT meet its Kyoto targets is essentially the same reason the US could not. Canada's population has grown slightly slower than the US but still it has grown 21% in the period from 1987 till now.
(You might compare this to a big Kyoto supporter, the United Kingdom which in 1990 posted a population of 58 million and in 2,000 posted a population of 59 million. )
Now, considering that Canada ratified Kyoto, WHAT is Canada doing to meet its 2008-2012 CO2 reduction obligation?
Arthur
Smithy
8th January 2007 - 08:27 PM
Hi Arthur (adoucette),
Regarding the time lag issue, you mentioned Vostok, but your PDF concludes:
QUOTE
As regards causal explanations of Late Pleistocene glacial cycles, it has to be considered that Vostok's air temperature (dD) represents, at best, the Southern Hemisphere.
And immediately continues:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| As regards causal explanations of Late Pleistocene glacial cycles, it has to be considered that Vostok's air temperature (dD) represents, at best, the Southern Hemisphere. |
And immediately continues:Blunier et al. (1998) estimated that Greenland
temperature variations lag behind those of Vostok by 1-2.5 ka over the period 47-23 ka. Thus, the geological relationships between variations in atmospheric CO2
content, global temperature and ice volume are quite
(Since it could easily be larger than Vostok's "changes in the Southern Hemisphere by 1.3+/-1.0 ka")
This is a good place to start:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=13QUOTE
Does this prove that CO2 doesn't cause global warming? The answer is no.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Does this prove that CO2 doesn't cause global warming? The answer is no. |
From studying all the available data (not just ice cores), the probable sequence of events at a termination goes something like this. Some (currently unknown) process causes Antarctica and the surrounding ocean to warm. This process also causes CO2 to start rising, about 800 years later. Then CO2 further warms the whole planet, because of its heat-trapping properties. This leads to even further CO2 release. So CO2 during ice ages should be thought of as a "feedback", much like the feedback that results from putting a microphone too near to a loudspeaker.
In other words, CO2 does not initiate the warmings, but acts as an amplifier once they are underway. From model estimates, CO2 (along with other greenhouse gases CH4 and N2O) causes about half of the full glacial-to-interglacial warming.
So, in summary, the lag of CO2 behind temperature doesn't tell us much about global warming. But it may give us a very interesting clue about why CO2 rises at the ends of ice ages. The 800-year lag is about the amount of time required to flush out the deep ocean through natural ocean currents. So CO2 might be stored in the deep ocean during ice ages, and then get released when the climate warms.
The point I was trying to make is that the current temperature chnage is drastically different from previous highs in the last 400,000 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change
(comment?)
You used this site for an image, but I assume you didn't see the main web-site tag line and in fact the front page:
QUOTE (http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/+)
'The burning of oil coal and gas for the world's energy including electricity and transport is causing global warming and climate change'.
Global average temperatures have risen approx 0.6C since 1900 but are already causing world wide damage - floods and droughts are increasing, sea level's rising and natural disasters have increased almost three fold since the 1960's. By 2050 there are estimated to be 150 million environmental refugees (3m a year) due to sea level rise or lack of food and water. By 2100 global average temperatures are projected to rise by between 1.4C and 5.8C and 40% more than this over many northern land surface areas. Over Greenland temperatures may rise by one to three times the global average.
"We are now engaged in an epic battle to right the balance of the Earth - and the tide of this battle will turn only when the majority of people in the world become sufficiently aroused by a shared sense of urgent danger to join an all out effort." Al Gore, "Earth In The Balance"
You seem to have such a lot to say. But don't refer to many sources. When you do use sources, you don't seem to read them properly. Probably why I find it so easy to agree with this one:
QUOTE (lengould+)
In any case, I'd recommend not taking too much of what Arthur declares as truth without several handfulls of salt.
adoucette
9th January 2007 - 04:43 AM
Who cares where I get an image from?????
Doesn't mean I agree with the site.
You get your kicks out of shooting the MESSENGER?
The point of the LAG quote is quite simple, the WARMING caused the CO2 to rise, not the other way around.
Arthur
Smithy
10th January 2007 - 08:06 AM
I know we need action not just talk, but the public are at least demonstrating their interest via the DVD best sellers list where An Inconvenient Truth (Documentary) is listed as follows:
*
http://www.amazon.com (released 21 Nov 2006): 30 Dec 2006 = 2nd, 9 Jan 2007 = 1st, 10 Jan 2006 = 2nd
*
http://www.amazon.co.uk (released 26 Dec 2006): 30 Dec 2006 = 5th, 9 & 10 Jan 2007 = 3rd
A balanced review can be found at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inconvenient_Truth QUOTE
The film includes many segments intended to refute critics who say that global warming is insignificant or unproved.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The film includes many segments intended to refute critics who say that global warming is insignificant or unproved. |
Gore's basic claim—that global warming is real and largely human-caused—is supported by current research.
adoucette
10th January 2007 - 04:39 PM
Cinemas everywhere will soon be showing former US Vice President Al Gore’s film on global warming. “An Inconvenient Truth” has received rave reviews in America and Europe, and it will most likely gain a large worldwide audience. But, while the film is full of emotion and provocative images, it is short on rational arguments.
“An Inconvenient Truth” makes three points: global warming is real; it will be catastrophic; and addressing it should be our top priority. Inconveniently for the film’s producers, however, only the first statement is correct.
While it’s nice to see Gore bucking the trend in a nation where many influential people deny that global warming even exists, many of his apocalyptic claims are highly misleading. But his biggest error lies in suggesting that humanity has a moral imperative to act on climate change because we realize there is a problem. This seems naïve, even disingenuous.
We know of many vast global challenges that we could easily solve. Preventable diseases like HIV, diarrhea, and malaria take 15 million lives each year. Malnutrition afflicts more than half the world’s population. Eight hundred million people lack basic education. A billion don’t have clean drinking water.
In the face of these challenges, why should stopping climate change be our top priority? Gore’s attempt at an answer doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
Gore shows that glaciers have receded for 50 years. But he doesn’t acknowledge they have been shrinking since the Napoleonic wars in the early 1800’s – long before industrial CO2 emissions. Likewise, he considers Antarctica the canary in the coalmine, but again doesn’t tell the full story. He presents pictures from the 2% of Antarctica that is dramatically warming, while ignoring the 98% that has largely cooled over the past 35 years. The UN climate panel estimates that Antarctica’s snow mass will actually increase during this century. And, whereas Gore points to shrinking sea ice in the Northern Hemisphere, he fails to mention that ice in the Southern Hemisphere is increasing.
The movie shows scary pictures of the consequences of the sea level rising 20 feet (seven meters), flooding large parts of Florida, San Francisco, New York, Holland, Calcutta, Beijing, and Shanghai. Were realistic levels not dramatic enough? The United Nations panel on climate change suggests a rise of only 1-2 feet during this century, compared to almost one foot in the last century.
Similarly, Europe’s deadly heat waves in 2003 lead Gore to conclude that climate change will mean more fatalities. But global warming would mean fewer deaths caused by cold temperatures, which in most of the developed world vastly outweigh deaths caused by heat. In the UK alone, it is estimated that the temperature increase would cause 2,000 extra heat deaths by 2050, but result in 20,000 fewer cold deaths.
Financial losses from weather events have increased dramatically over the past 45 years, which Gore attributes to global warming. But all or almost all of this increase comes from more people with more possessions living closer to harm’s way. If all hurricanes had hit the US with today’s demographics, the biggest damage would have been caused not by Katrina, but by a hurricane in 1926. Allowing for changes in the number of people and their wealth, flood losses have actually decreased slightly.
The movie invites viewers to conclude that global warming caused Hurricane Katrina, with Gore claiming that the warm Caribbean waters made the storm stronger. But when Katrina made landfall, it was not a catastrophic Category 5 hurricane; it was a milder Category 3. In fact, there is no scientific consensus that global warming makes hurricanes more destructive, as he claims. The author that Gore himself relies on says that it would be “absurd to attribute the Katrina disaster to global warming.”
After presenting the case for the potentially catastrophic effects of climate change, Gore unveils his solution: the world should embrace the Kyoto Protocol, which aims to cut carbon emissions in the developed countries by 30% by 2010.
But even if every nation signed up to Kyoto, it would merely postpone warming by six years in 2100, at an annual cost of $150 billion. Kyoto would not have saved New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina. But improved levees and maintenance could have. While Gore was campaigning for Kyoto in the 1990’s, a better use of resources would have been to bolster hurricane defenses.
Indeed, the real issue is using resources wisely. Kyoto won’t stop developing countries from being hardest hit by climate change, for the simple reason that they have warmer climates and fewer resources. But these nations have pressing problems that we could readily solve. According to UN estimates, for $75 billion a year – half the cost of implementing the Kyoto Protocol – we could provide clean drinking water, sanitation, basic health care, and education to every single human being on Earth. Shouldn’t that be a higher priority?
Recent hurricanes killed thousands in Haiti, and not in Florida, because Haiti is poor and cannot afford even basic preventive measures. Combating disease, hunger, and polluted water would bring immediate benefits to millions and allow poorer countries to increase productivity and break the cycle of poverty. That, in turn, would make their inhabitants less vulnerable to climate fluctuations.
At the climax of his movie, Gore argues that future generations will chastise us for not having committed ourselves to the Kyoto Protocol. More likely, they will wonder why, in a world overflowing with “inconvenient truths,” Gore focused on the one where we could achieve the least good for the highest cost.
By Bjørn Lomborg, Director for the Copenhagen Consensus Center and Adjunct Professor at the Copenhagen Business School. His most recent book is How to Spend $50 Billion to Make the World a Better Place.
Smithy
10th January 2007 - 06:48 PM
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 10 2007, 04:39 PM)
By Bjørn Lomborg, Director for the Copenhagen Consensus Center and Adjunct Professor at the Copenhagen Business School.
Hi Arthur (anducette),
I note there are no references backing up any of your opinions or claims, except for Lomborg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_LomborgQUOTE
Accusations of scientific dishonesty
After the publication of The Skeptical Environmentalist, Lomborg was accused of scientific misconduct. Several environmental scientists brought a total of three complaints against Lomborg to the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD), a body under Denmark's Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation. The charges claimed that The Skeptical Environmentalist contained deliberately misleading data and flawed conclusions. Due to the similarity of the complaints, the DCSD decided to proceed on the three cases under one investigation.
http://www.lomborg-errors.dk/QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
Accusations of scientific dishonesty
After the publication of The Skeptical Environmentalist, Lomborg was accused of scientific misconduct. Several environmental scientists brought a total of three complaints against Lomborg to the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD), a body under Denmark's Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation. The charges claimed that The Skeptical Environmentalist contained deliberately misleading data and flawed conclusions. Due to the similarity of the complaints, the DCSD decided to proceed on the three cases under one investigation.
|
http://www.lomborg-errors.dk/gives information on cases and activities related to Bjørn Lomborg, attempts to describe his methods, and attempts to document his dishonesty.
Documenting un-scientific methods isn't easy, making them up must be tricky too!
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=1273There is no reason why global warming cannot sit beside other needy causes in the world. In fact addressing it benefits people who would otherwise become needy causes.
Based on your sources, and what I have debunked of what you have written before, I suspect that most if not all of your claims are false.
Sorry!
adoucette
10th January 2007 - 06:49 PM
Sorry yourself.
Bjorn was cleared of those charges.
PS, you've not debunked a thing. I just get tired of correcting the same ol BS.
Arthur
Smithy
11th January 2007 - 08:44 AM
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 10 2007, 06:49 PM)
Bjorn was cleared of those charges.
No smoke without fire?
adoucette
11th January 2007 - 08:21 PM
Yeah,
He pissed off the Greenies who attacked THE MESSENGER ruthlessly.
They failed because there was no substance to their allegations.
Just like you.
You didn't attack WHAT he said, just WHO was saying it.
Typical.
Arthur
ehm
23rd June 2007 - 03:49 AM
Here's a link to a journal article that presents highlights of a study that uses one natural process (Earth Magnetic Field Variation) variable that can predict global temperatures 6 to 7 years in the future... And there's no one other variable that can do that.
www.gsaaj.org/articles/TempPaperv1n22007.pdf
U NO HOO
7th November 2007 - 03:23 PM
Is Global Warming causing Cheryl "Charlee" Lockwood's house to fall into the ocean?
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