Harry Costas
23rd February 2007 - 10:56 AM
Hello All
Gravity
Speed of Gravity Measured for First Time
http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2003/gravity/quote
QUOTE
"We have determined that gravity's propagation speed is equal to the speed of light within an accuracy of 20 percent," said Ed Fomalont, an astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO) in Charlottesville, VA. The scientists presented their findings to the American Astronomical Society's meeting in Seattle, WA.
This is not totaly correct. It is more of an opinion rather than evidence.
Propagation Speed of Gravity and the Relativistic Time Delay
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0301145QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "We have determined that gravity's propagation speed is equal to the speed of light within an accuracy of 20 percent," said Ed Fomalont, an astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO) in Charlottesville, VA. The scientists presented their findings to the American Astronomical Society's meeting in Seattle, WA. |
This is not totaly correct. It is more of an opinion rather than evidence.
Propagation Speed of Gravity and the Relativistic Time Delay
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0301145We calculate the delay in the propagation of a light signal past a massive body that moves with speed v, under the assumption that the speed of propagation of the gravitational interaction c_g differs from that of light. Using the post-Newtonian approximation, we consider an expansion in powers of v/c beyond the leading ``Shapiro'' time delay effect, while working to first order only in Gm/c^2, and show that the altered propagation speed of the gravitational signal has no effect whatsoever on the time delay to first order in v/c beyond the leading term, although it will have an effect to second and higher order. We show that the only other possible effects of an altered speed c_g at this order arise from a modification of the parametrized post-Newtonian (PPN) coefficient \alpha_1 of the metric from the value zero predicted by general relativity. Current solar-system measurements already provide tight bounds on such a modification. We conclude that recent measurements of the propagation of radio signals past Jupiter are sensitive to \alpha_1, but are not directly sensitive to the speed of propagation of gravity.
The Confrontation between General Relativity and Experiment
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0510072QUOTE
The status of experimental tests of general relativity and of theoretical frameworks for analysing them is reviewed. Einstein's equivalence principle (EEP) is well supported by experiments such as the Eotvos experiment, tests of special relativity, and the gravitational redshift experiment. Future tests of EEP and of the inverse square law are searching for new interactions arising from unification or quantum gravity. Tests of general relativity at the post-Newtonian level have reached high precision, including the light deflection, the Shapiro time delay, the perihelion advance of Mercury, and the Nordtvedt effect in lunar motion. Gravitational-wave damping has been detected in an amount that agrees with general relativity to better than half a percent using the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar, and other binary pulsar systems have yielded other tests, especially of strong-field effects. When direct observation of gravitational radiation from astrophysical sources begins, new tests of general relativity will be possible.
Does Gravity Have Inertia?
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/...e%20Inertia.aspQUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The status of experimental tests of general relativity and of theoretical frameworks for analysing them is reviewed. Einstein's equivalence principle (EEP) is well supported by experiments such as the Eotvos experiment, tests of special relativity, and the gravitational redshift experiment. Future tests of EEP and of the inverse square law are searching for new interactions arising from unification or quantum gravity. Tests of general relativity at the post-Newtonian level have reached high precision, including the light deflection, the Shapiro time delay, the perihelion advance of Mercury, and the Nordtvedt effect in lunar motion. Gravitational-wave damping has been detected in an amount that agrees with general relativity to better than half a percent using the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar, and other binary pulsar systems have yielded other tests, especially of strong-field effects. When direct observation of gravitational radiation from astrophysical sources begins, new tests of general relativity will be possible. |
Does Gravity Have Inertia?
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/...e%20Inertia.aspAbstract. » Gravity makes heavy and light bodies fall at the same rate. Gravity obeys the “equivalence principle”, and is just "curved space-time geometry" in geometric general relativity. But space-time curvature alone cannot initiate motion, and changes in momentum still require a force acting. Moreover, gravity can deviate slightly from the “equivalence principle”, and “space-time” is really just proper time and does not involve any curvature of space. The Le Sage “pushing gravity” concept is a better way to explain the physics of gravity. For forces other than gravity, the momentum transferred must be shared by all particles in the target body, producing what we call “inertia” -- a simple dilution of momentum. Gravity obeys the “transparency principle”, allowing momentum to be transferred directly to each particle. Without need for dilution of momentum, gravity has no inertia. «
Does Gravity Travel at the Speed of Light?
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Rela...grav_speed.htmlQUOTE
While current observations do not yet provide a direct model-independent measurement of the speed of gravity, a test within the framework of general relativity can be made by observing the binary pulsar PSR 1913+16. The orbit of this binary system is gradually decaying, and this behavior is attributed to the loss of energy due to escaping gravitational radiation. But in any field theory, radiation is intimately related to the finite velocity of field propagation, and the orbital changes due to gravitational radiation can equivalently be viewed as damping caused by the finite propagation speed. (In the discussion above, this damping represents a failure of the "retardation" and "noncentral, velocity-dependent" effects to completely cancel.)
The rate of this damping can be computed, and one finds that it depends sensitively on the speed of gravity. The fact that gravitational damping is measured at all is a strong indication that the propagation speed of gravity is not infinite. If the calculational framework of general relativity is accepted, the damping can be used to calculate the speed, and the actual measurement confirms that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light to within 1%. (Measurements of at least one other binary pulsar system, PSR B1534+12, confirm this result, although so far with less precision.)
Speed of gravity----what the experiments say.
Read this, before you determine if gravity travels at the speed of light.
As to the speed of gravity it has not been determined.
A main point is that if gravity travels at the speed of light than the solar system will be out of balance.
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp
kaneda
25th February 2007 - 07:36 AM
Harry Costas. I don't understand. The article in the link you quoted showed that we know that gravity moves far faster than light (2x10^10 C) :
QUOTE
How then does the direction of Earth acceleration compare with the direction of the visible Sun? By direct calculation from geometric ephemerides fitted to such observations, such as those published by the U.S. Naval Observatory or the Development Ephemerides of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the Earth accelerates toward a point 20 arc seconds in front of the visible Sun, where the Sun will appear to be in 8.3 minutes. In other words, the acceleration now is toward the true, instantaneous direction of the Sun now, and is not parallel to the direction of the arriving solar photons now. This is additional evidence that forces from electromagnetic radiation pressure and from gravity do not have the same propagation speed.
Yet much of the scientific community seems to think that gravity moves at light speed due to a recent measurement using Jupiter and seemingly do not know of the evidence that this article uses.
kaneda
28th February 2007 - 07:07 AM
Harry Costas. I emailed Tom Van Flandern of Metaresearch and it seems from his reply that though they still carry the info, they do not believe in it themselves :
Actually, no one knowledgeable accepts the interpretation of that
experiment proposed by author Kopeikin. He was widely criticized by
relativists and refused publication in the journal he first submitted to.
However, many science writers heard only the claims at a press
conference, and published only that story and not the later criticisms.
As to why the author has not formally retracted, I've had lengthy
discussions with him, and am forced to conclude that he spent a lot of
government money from the grant he received to conduct the experiment, and
is therefore now reluctant to admit that it was spent unwisely. This is a
pity, but sadly is not an uncommon situation in science. Best wishes.
-|Tom|-
Latrosicarius
5th March 2007 - 08:50 PM
I don't know what the speed of gravity has to do with this particular thread.
If gravity is faster than C then the effect on distant observed galaxies would be that the actual positions of the stars are ahead of where they appear (meaning they are orbiting EVEN faster than we are trying to describe).
On the other hand, if C is equal to, or faster than gravity, then the stars will be where they appear (the delay in light-years to our present location not withstanding).
The point is, either way, stars in the middle and outer distances of observed galaxies are rotating too fast COMPARED TO INNER STARS. It doesn't matter how fast gravity propagates compared to light.
Can somebody please check my logic?
Harry Costas
7th March 2007 - 06:40 AM
Hello Latro
Read these links
What the Global Positioning System Tells Us about the Twin's Paradox
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/gps-twins.aspPOSSIBLE NEW PROPERTIES OF GRAVITY
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/...esofgravity.aspQUOTE
Abstract. Gravity has no aberration, and propagation delays cannot be used without destroying angular momentum conservation at an unacceptable rate. Even the curved spacetime explanation (“gravity is just geometry”) breaks down when masses and speeds are large, as in binary pulsars. But if gravity or spacetime curvature information is carried by classical propagating particles or waves, a modern Laplace experiment places a lower limit on their speed of 1010 c. The so-called Lorentzian modification of special relativity permits such speeds without need of tachyons. But there are other consequences. If ordinary gravity is carried by particles with finite collision cross-section, such collisions would progressively diminish its inverse square character. Gravity would gradually convert to inverse linear behavior on the largest scales. Curiously, at all scales greater than about 2 kiloparsecs, gravity can be modeled without need for dark matter by an inverse linear law. The orbital motions of Mercury and Earth may also show traces of this effect. Moreover, if gravity were carried by particles, a collapsed ultra-dense mass between two bodies could shield each of them from the gravity of the other. Anomalies are seen in the motions of certain artificial Earth satellites during eclipse seasons that behave like shielding of the Sun’s gravity. Certain types of radiation pressure might cause a similar behavior, but require far more free parameters to model. Each of these effects of particle-gravity models has the potential to lead to a breakthrough in our post-Einsteinian understanding of gravitation. This would also change our views of the nature of time in relativity theory.
Gravity
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/gravity.aspGo to Home on the above links, and there is more papers on it.
The Speed of Gravity – What the Experiments Say
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp
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