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lengould
John Gribbin, a professional science writer, provides a very accessable complete coverage of the issues here: (Emphasis added)

Living with the greenhouse effect

"A great deal of what you read and hear about the so-called "greenhouse effect" is either exaggerated, or misrepresented, or both. But the basis for concern about uncomfortably rapid global warming occurring within our own lifetimes and those of our children rests on just three facts, and a reasonable inference.

The first fact is that there is an atmospheric greenhouse effect, which keeps the Earth warmer than it would otherwise be. The simplest way to get an idea of how important this is is to compare temperatures at the surface of the Earth with those on the airless Moon. There is no significant difference between the distance of the Moon from the Sun and the distance of the Earth from the Sun, so both receive the same amount of heat on each square metre of the surface that faces the Sun, and, other things being equal (which they are not) should reach the same equilbrium temperature. The average temperature at the surface of the Moon (averaging over the whole surface, including day and night sides) is actually -18 degC, while the average temperature on the surface of the Earth is 15 degC. The blanket of our atmosphere keeps the surface of the planet a full 33 degC warmer than it would otherwise be, and crucially (as far as life forms like us are concerned) raises the temperature above the freezing point of water. "


LG - Note that this analysis eliminates any possible argument from anti's that solar variation is the only factor.

"There is no mystery about how it does this. Some gases in the air (chiefly carbon dioxide and water vapour) absorb infrared radiation (the same kind of heat radiation you can feel if you hold your hand near a warm radiator). Sunlight passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected, and warms the surface of the Earth. The warm surface radiates infrared, not light (because it is cooler than the surface of the Sun), and some of this outgoing infrared radiation is absorbed in the atmosphere and re- radiated in all directions. Some of the re-radiated infrared radiation goes back down and increases the temperature at the surface. This is the atmospheric greenhouse effect -- and nothing to do, incidentally, with the way a greenhouse keeps warm, which is by letting sunlight in and stopping convection, trapping hot air that tries to rise under a roof of glass.

There are complications. Any increase in surface temperature increases the amount of evaporation from the oceans, which puts more water vapour in the air and increases the greenhouse effect, in a feedback process. As a result, adding a relatively <b>small amount of carbon dioxide can produce a disproportionate warming, once the feedback is allowed for. "


At this point, Gribbin goes into a discussion of diminishing returns of CO2 levels in atmosphere, which is in error. Replace it with this more scientific analysis of the issue.

Basic Radiation Calculations - Spencer Weart

In part, Weart's paper includes the following, which clearly scientifically demolishes the anti's common argument that "adding more CO2 cannot trap more heat above a certain limit."

[B]Neither Kaplan nor anyone else of the time was thinking clearly enough about the greenhouse effect to point out that it will operate regardless of the details of the absorption. The trick, again, was to follow how the radiation passed up layer by layer. Consider a layer of the atmosphere so high and thin that heat radiation from lower down would slip through. Add more gas, and the layer would absorb some of the rays. Therefore the place from which heat energy finally left the Earth would shift to a higher layer. That would be a colder layer, unable to radiate heat so efficiently. The imbalance would cause all the lower levels to get warmer, until the high levels became hot enough to radiate as much energy back out as the planet received. (For additional explanation of the "greenhouse effect," follow the link at right to the essay on Simple Models.) Adding carbon dioxide will make for a stronger greenhouse effect regardless of saturation in the lower atmosphere.

(And actually, there is no saturation. With the primitive infrared measuring techniques of his day, Ångström’s assistant had gotten a midleading result. He could only measure the heat transferred across . Measurements from the 1940s on have shown that there is not nearly enough CO2 in the atmosphere to block most of the infrared radiation in the bands of the spectrum where the gas absorbs it. That’s even the case for water vapor in deserts where the air is extremely dry.)



Back to Gribbin

" All of these complications (and others) are taken account of in computer models of the greenhouse effect. These models accurately describe the differences in temperature between the airless Moon and the Earth, and the pattern of temperatures seen on Mars."

"The second fact is that the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has increased over the past hundred years or so. Since the early 19th century, the amount of carbon dioxide in the air has increased from below 280 parts per million to above 350 parts per million. The absolute quantities are small, which only goes to show just how powerful the greenhouse effect is -- that 280 ppm plays a considerable part in keeping us 33 degrees warmer than the Moon. But the proportional increase is more than 25 per cent, clearly a dramatic change in any natural system. There is no doubt that this increase comes mainly from burning fossil fuel -- coal, oil and gas. First, not only the increase itself but the rate of increase matches the rate at which such fuel has been burnt, including "blips" caused by two World Wars and the Arab oil crisis. Secondly, analysis of air bubbles trapped in the icecaps of Greenland and Antarctica show that the natural concentration of carbon dioxide in the air has been below 280 ppm for hundreds of thousands of years. Other greenhouse gases, including methane (which occurs naturally and is a byproduct of agricultural activities) and CFCs (which are entirely synthetic, and are also implicated in the destruction of the ozone layer) are also building up in the air."

"The third fact is that the Earth has got warmer over the past century, by about half a degree, Celsius. The evidence comes from meteorological stations scattered about the surface of the planet, and chiefly located on land masses. But the accuracy of the measurements was dramatically confirmed by satellite observations in the 1980s and 1990s."


Note that the third fact is much more strongly confirmed since Gribbin wrote his article in the 1990's

The reasonable inference is that the global warming (which is real) is related to the buildup of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere (which is real), but that the computer models may slightly overestimate the strength of the additional greenhouse effect.

No responses without authoritative science-based references please. mad.gif
Mr. Robin Parsons
No reference needed to the point that increasing the temperatures in the upper atmosphere will cause the atmosphere to expand slightly ergo: slightly increasing the surface area for the radiant heat to escape or exchange energies with the now greater surface area interactive Spacial Cold.

Was that effect figured in? unsure.gif
hawksecho
OK. For reference try the latest annual report by The National Academy of Science, or the NASA Global Climate survey, or data recovered from both poles since the 1958 international geophysical year, or the reports since 1914 from the north sea ice patrol, handled for us by the US Coast Guard, started to monitor ice bergs after the Titanic went down. By the way it's unscientific and quite impossible to prove a negative. You cant. But you can prove something with positive evidence from the sources above, and others. From the data I think evidence is very strong the Earth is getting warmer. Look at a time laps satellite photos over decades showing shrinkage of the Greenland , North and South pole ice caps. Then there's the documented loss of ice/snow in the Alps and Himalaya mountain regions. All this said, I don't know how much can be attributed to human actions, vrs. natural cycles. But concerning the fact global warming is happening, the evidence is over whelming.
lengould
Mr: Parson: If you've read the reference to Spencer Weart's document, you'd not be asking. What's your reference for the percentage increase in atmospheric height (eg. expansion due to heating) being of any significance?
Mr. Robin Parsons
QUOTE (lengould+Nov 6 2007, 05:12 PM)
(SNIP) What's your reference for the percentage increase in atmospheric height being of any significance? (SNoP)

None - my apologies - {(I)'ve not the computer time} Bye cool.gif
MisterBelfry
i reference pretty thourougly...

http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic3094107.shtm

From: bellfree campanile ® 31/07/2007 10:25:06 AM

Subject: greybody vs. blackbody post id: 3094107

The global warming farce\fraud {How else could it be a farce?} has come down to "order of magnitude"?

< Skip>

"[Spencer]Weart writes in such a way that the text is well-readable and looks insightful to superficial readers. If you read it carefully, however, you can see that Weart has no idea what he is talking about at the technical level. First of all, the text is completely non-quantitative. All assertions are binary and dogmatic, Yes/No, and no quantitative laws or functional dependences are ever given, not even sketched. His text makes it impossible to decide whether one effect or another effect is important or not, or whether it has already been included or not.

You may also see that methods such as differential equations or dimensional analysis - and order-of-magnitude estimates - go well beyond Weart's abilities..." L.Motl




http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic2959680.shtm
From: Byteman ® 17/05/2007 9:08:13 PM

Subject: Climate Momentum Shifting post id: 2959680

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fus...n_id=&Issue_id=





http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic3094100.shtm
From: bellfree campanile ® 31/07/2007 10:22:24 AM

Subject: The warming frog that jumped post id: 3094100

For my first two entries on the Web with this paper
See
www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/newposts/3079/post3079771.shtm


Even when viewed from space at such a distance that the Earth appears as a point source, the radiation from it deviates from a black body distribution and so has no one temperature [6]. There is also no unique “temperature at the top of the atmosphere”. The temperature field of the Earth as a whole is not thermodynamically representable by a single temperature.

lengould
Mr Belfry:
QUOTE (Belfry+)
Even when viewed from space at such a distance that the Earth appears as a point source, the radiation from it deviates from a black body distribution and so has no one temperature [6]. There is also no unique “temperature at the top of the atmosphere”. The temperature field of the Earth as a whole is not thermodynamically representable by a single temperature.


What is your reason for / significance of that ?quote? or statement? Are you a believer that the earth does not re-radiate the energy it receives, or what? Is incoming energy from the sun magically stored in earth's core? The statement simply indicates that there is an unstated range of temperatures over which earth re-radiates. So what? Explain how the net outcome is any different as a result?

No significance whatever to the Weart discussion.

And BTW, one of the wierder effects of the frothing-at-the-mouth anti-GW crowd is that I no longer read or am interested in assasination attacks on the creds of any climatologist. Period. Disgusting. Make your case yourself with proper science / references, don't attack character.
adoucette
Except see:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=270568

(and following list of LONG DURATION rural stations which show the SAME basic cyclic trend which does NOT correlate with CO2


So this:
QUOTE
The reasonable inference is that the global warming (which is real) is related to the buildup of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere (which is real), but that the computer models may slightly overestimate the strength of the additional greenhouse effect.


Is VERY SIMPLISTIC, since the REASONABLE inference is that there have been OTHER warming periods equal or greater to this latest round of global warming which began BEFORE any significant build up in CO2 and that while CO2 does provide some amount of warming potential, its impact appears to be OVERWHELMED by other effects.

Note, I've YET to see any MODEL which accurately models the DECLINING temps in the middle of the last century.

Note, I've YET to see any MODEL which predicts DECLINING temps under ANY cirmcumstances.

Arthur
MisterBelfry


...and blah blah
QUOTE
No significance whatever to the Weart discussion.


I gave balanced reporting... Read the threads(Yes, they are devasting to your position, if you have one, although I suppose the title *of this thread* says it all {{{Science, should never have something like "final statement".}}}, even though you are few months behind.)!


The first link i gave goes to layers of the atmosphere thing.
{I have been in a hurry, I have pictures somewhere to expand(hehe) on this argument, if you want.}
The second link goes towards a *top ten blog list* I may some day develop on this farce\fraud of global warming. All potential contributions are welcome, even yours. For instance, I am in the middle of reading this one:
http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2006/01/04/...ction%E2%80%9D/

I think the extra methane paper of last year by Frank Keppler is a bit dated and the "extra" methane mystery has been solved (Not sure!). Then appears an "extra" Amazon moisture mechanism I don't recall ever hearing about.

The third link I gave above goes towards the fraud{statistical} of averaging temperatures{Gribbin somewhere mentions the "greenhouse effect hypothesis" in relation to pink noise, I would emphasize the hypothesis part for John to save face}. Of course, the term global warming is now to be replaced with climate change with equal farce\fraud potential which is here

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=13562&st=855

somewhere near the bottom. If climatologists as a group need to be called scientific imbeciles, so be it.

So, there be two parts(at least) to your opening post and I did not follow the same order, sorry. Truth is, I did not read it, I scanned it and "knew" I had all ready posted on the topics. Now that I have scanned it better, I am all the more sure.
MrB.
lengould
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 7 2007, 02:54 PM)
Except see:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=270568

(and following list of LONG DURATION rural stations which show the SAME basic cyclic trend which does NOT correlate with CO2


So this:

Is VERY SIMPLISTIC, since the REASONABLE inference is that there have been OTHER warming periods equal or greater to this latest round of global warming which began BEFORE any significant build up in CO2 and that while CO2 does provide some amount of warming potential, its impact appears to be  OVERWHELMED by other effects.

Note, I've YET to see any MODEL which accurately models the DECLINING temps in the middle of the last century.

Note, I've YET to see any MODEL which predicts DECLINING temps under ANY cirmcumstances.

Arthur

Wrong Arthur. "(and following list of LONG DURATION rural stations which show the SAME basic cyclic trend which does NOT correlate with CO2" is highly subject to i) analysts definition of Rural, ii) local effects, e.g. North America. iii) inaccuracy of method. I prefer now to go with the satelitte data, which does indicate some relevant warming.

Your opinion that "CO2 effects are minimal" is only just that, your opinion. See Fact 1 above and the Weart reference.

The bottom line is, there is NO refuting the three facts stated, and the inference IS reasonable.
lengould
QUOTE (Belfry+)
somewhere near the bottom. If climatologists as a group need to be called scientific imbeciles, so be it.


So we should credit one amateur non-climatologist (you) over all science? I think NOT.
adoucette
QUOTE (lengould+Nov 7 2007, 02:22 PM)
Wrong Arthur. "(and following list of LONG DURATION rural stations which show the SAME basic cyclic trend which does NOT correlate with CO2" is highly subject to i) analysts definition of Rural, ii) local effects, e.g. North America. iii) inaccuracy of method. I prefer now to go with the satelitte data, which does indicate some relevant warming.


laugh.gif

Please publish links to Satellite data from 1900 to 1980, I can't seem to find them anywhere.

The Goddard Institute of Space Sciences Database is my reference.

You have a better one?

Oh, and about the Satellite data, NASA to this day STILL publishes TWO different temperature interpretations of these REMOTE attempts using microwaves to measure atmospheric temperature. They do so because THEY DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE (if either) IS RIGHT, (RSS or UAH) but what they do know is that they don't agree with each other.

The FACT is, the GISS LONG TERM RURAL STATIONS (100+ year continuous record of DIRECT measurement) are KNOWN for being some of the BEST sources of CLIMATE data.

The list I published covers the GLOBE and is not just US or NH data.

That long list of station data I posted presents a very consistant view of the 20th century.

One of a STONG warming trend prior to any major buildup of GHGs, followed by a four+ decade long global cooling trend that is CONTRARY to a correlation with a CO2 induced warming since temps clearly declined significantly as CO2 levels continued to rise.

I KNOW you want to AVOID talking about how COLD it got during the late 60s into the 70s, but a theory of a CO2 driven climate system has to account for BOTH the warming and the COOLING.

Arthur

John A
"As a result, adding a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide can produce a disproportionate warming, once the feedback is allowed for. "

“Can produce”?

Try this...
http://www.aai.ee/~olavi/2001JD002024u.pdf
Or, a more simple explanation...
http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2007/08/14/...by-roy-spencer/

Thanks

tongue.gif

adoucette
QUOTE (John A+Nov 7 2007, 05:30 PM)
"As a result, adding a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide can produce a disproportionate warming, once the feedback is allowed for. "


This is FALSE.

In fact, life on earth can only exist because it is FALSE.

The ice cores show us that rising CO2 levels LAG behind rising temperatures.

But if rising CO2 levels cause a POSITIVE FEEDBACK to cause even more warming it would result in a RUNAWAY HEATING scenario.

What is CLEAR, to anyone who cares to look at the earth's temp record, is that a warming earth causes a NEGATIVE feedback, thus PREVENTING this runaway warming.

Arthur

RealityCheck
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 7 2007, 10:32 PM)
This is FALSE.

In fact, life on earth can only exist because it is FALSE.

The ice cores show us that rising CO2 levels LAG behind rising temperatures.

But if rising CO2 levels cause a POSITIVE FEEDBACK to cause even more warming it would result in a RUNAWAY HEATING scenario.

What is CLEAR, to anyone who cares to look at the earth's temp record, is that a warming earth causes a NEGATIVE feedback, thus PREVENTING this runaway warming.

Arthur



Hi adoucette, everyone!

Whenever attempting to 'measure' CO2 and contemporary temps/effects during particular periods it should be borne in mind that over the period of the 1800-1900s, early COAL/WOOD-DRIVEN industrial revolution, produced great quantities of airborne particulate matter which, when combined with that being produced from volcanoes, may have caused TEMPORARY global and localised COOLING.

When LATER the processes were 'cleaned up' and the volcanism-particulates subsided, the WARMING resumed.

Note that I haven't mentioned the actual CO2 addition to the atmosphere.

Anyhow, when the 'cooling particulates' phase died down the CO2 THEN became more prominent in effects that were NO LONGER counteracted by the aforementioned 'cooling' causes.

So as the planet/locations warmed UP the land and sea carbon-life MASS increased, so that the carbon was once again being 'sinked' out of the atmosphere. Hence another 'cooling' or 'pausing' period in the global heat load/distributions.

BUT since THEN, we have been pillaging established forests and fisheries to the point of disturbing/removing EN MASSE the land/ocean carbon-life and capabilities for such 'sinking' of carbon.

Add to that the acidification problems from ever grater chemical/combustive outputs in ever expanding industial capacities in India, China and the already developed counties, and what we have is a potent mix of DECREASING SINKS and INCREASING PRODUCERS of CO2.

Whether the CO2 'readings' 'track' EXACTLY the global temps is neither here nor there....for the reasons given as to TEMPORARY factors.

The important point is that when the warming reaches a critical level AT A PARTICULAR POINT in the 'trending', the MASS RELEASE of VAST QUANTITIES of METHANE from permafrost and deep ocean 'sinks' (clathrates? hydrates?) that have been essentially undisturbed for thousands of years, we will THEN know what 'global warming' is all about!...because THAT is the REAL danger; and CO2 effect is in my opinion merely the TRIGGER to greater catastrophic warming.

Unless we 'replace' the quantity of land/ocean CARBON-LIFE sink capacity that we have removed wjith our mechnised harvesting (clear felling) and factory-ship fishing (blitz-fishing), we WILL have that 'trigger' and no mistake (unless we create NEW carbon-sink techniques/processes/means to COMPENSATE).

OH, before I go and leave you all to it, I'd like to point out (for the benefit of those that maintain there is 'MUCH more CO2 coming from volcanoes than from human activity") that the VOLCANIC sorces of CO2 is from 'calcined' CARBONATE rocks that have been recycled into the lower mantle and stripped of the CO2 which eventually accompanies the MAGMA containing the NOW CO2 'depleted' molten rock. HOWEVER, as 'weathering' and 're-combination' of that SAME CO2 soon goes BACK to forming the original carbonate rock minerals state, the volcanic source of CO2 may be considered CARBON NEUTRAL in its effect over decades/centuries.

So the argument of OUR contribution to CO2 levels being 'puny' in comparison to volcanic CO2 is NOT valid in the main.

FORTUNATELY for us, since volcanoes ARE CO2 neutral over time, their airborne 'particulate' contribution is 'cooling' for the time it remains aloft. So let's hear it for the 'dirty volcanoes'! hehehe.

That's my 'take' on this question, anyhow!

Cheers adoucette, all!

RC.
.
adoucette
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 7 2007, 09:20 PM)


Hi adoucette, everyone!

Whenever attempting to 'measure' CO2 and contemporary temps/effects during particular periods it should be borne in mind that over the period of the 1800-1900s, early COAL/WOOD-DRIVEN industrial revolution, produced great quantities of airborne particulate matter which, when combined with that being produced from volcanoes, may have caused TEMPORARY global and localised COOLING.

When LATER the processes were 'cleaned up' and the volcanism-particulates subsided, the WARMING resumed.


Hi RC

Unfortunately this is a very unlikely explanation.

See this set of posts for temp graphs from a large number of LONG TERM RURAL weather stations from over the globe that provide a pretty consistant view of the temp trends of the last century.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

The Modern Warming period began in the mid/late 19th century and hit its first global peak around 1935-1940,

See this for the 1880 to 1935 Warming Trend.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

During this time the CO2 production was relatively very small but the amount of particulate matter was VERY HIGH (this was when the term SMOG was first coined in England) and thus the cooling effect of any particulate matter should have swamped the slight warming effect of the additional CO2.

But as you can see, the OPPOSITE was the case.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

The cooling trend didn't start until the 40s and persisted until the late 70s.

During this time the trend in pollution/particulate matter dropped in proportion to the amount of CO2 as we cleaned up our act, and since particulates have a very short life one can't claim that they were responsible for (or overwhelmed) the increasing amounts of CO2, since they clearly didn't have that effect during the first third of the 20th century.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

By the way, you can relax, even in fairly recent times its been FAR WARMER than today and NEVER have even prolonged global warm periods resulted in "Catastrophic" warming.

Arthur
Steveo
QUOTE
The cooling trend didn't start until the 40s and persisted until the late 70s.


An interesting coincidence is this roughly coincides with the period of time that started with WW2, and had surface nuclear weapons testing. As I am sure everyone has seen the famous mushroom cloud, a lot of particulate is put into the atmosphere. I did a quick search, but didn't find any info about how much is put into the atmosphere, so this is only a thought that came into mind when you mentioned the time frame. However, this seems like it may give a reason for soot in the atmosphere to suppress the effects of increased CO2. It may be of little to no effect, but it would be worth looking into I think. It is a fairly interesting coincidence I think.
MisterBelfry



QUOTE
Sunlight passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected, and warms the surface of the Earth. The warm surface radiates infrared, not light (because it is cooler than the surface of the Sun), and some of this outgoing infrared radiation is absorbed in the atmosphere and re- radiated in all directions. Some of the re-radiated infrared radiation goes back down and increases the temperature at the surface. This is the atmospheric greenhouse effect -- and nothing to do, incidentally, with the way a greenhouse keeps warm, which is by letting sunlight in and stopping convection, trapping hot air that tries to rise under a roof of glass.


A.Sunlight passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected, and warms the surface of the Earth.

This is wrong or too simplified assuming we have an ozone!

B.The warm surface radiates infrared, not light (because it is cooler than the surface of the Sun),

This is incomplete, due to poor word choice?

C.and some of this outgoing infrared radiation is absorbed in the atmosphere and re- radiated in all directions. Some of the re-radiated infrared radiation goes back down and increases the temperature at the surface.
D.This is the atmospheric greenhouse effect -- and nothing to do, incidentally, with the way a greenhouse keeps warm, which is by letting sunlight in and stopping convection, trapping hot air that tries to rise under a roof of glass.

This is dumb. Exactly how is hot air different from infrared?



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Sunlight passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected, and warms the surface of the Earth. The warm surface radiates infrared, not light (because it is cooler than the surface of the Sun), and some of this outgoing infrared radiation is absorbed in the atmosphere and re- radiated in all directions. Some of the re-radiated infrared radiation goes back down and increases the temperature at the surface. This is the atmospheric greenhouse effect -- and nothing to do, incidentally, with the way a greenhouse keeps warm, which is by letting sunlight in and stopping convection, trapping hot air that tries to rise under a roof of glass.


A.Sunlight passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected, and warms the surface of the Earth.

This is wrong or too simplified assuming we have an ozone!

B.The warm surface radiates infrared, not light (because it is cooler than the surface of the Sun),

This is incomplete, due to poor word choice?

C.and some of this outgoing infrared radiation is absorbed in the atmosphere and re- radiated in all directions. Some of the re-radiated infrared radiation goes back down and increases the temperature at the surface.
D.This is the atmospheric greenhouse effect -- and nothing to do, incidentally, with the way a greenhouse keeps warm, which is by letting sunlight in and stopping convection, trapping hot air that tries to rise under a roof of glass.

This is dumb. Exactly how is hot air different from infrared?



QUOTE (Belfry)
somewhere near the bottom. If climatologists as a group need to be called scientific imbeciles, so be it.
...
I think NOT.


Yes, it is a big if but if we are forced to do it...wink.gif

MrB.
adoucette
QUOTE (Steveo+Nov 8 2007, 02:03 AM)

An interesting coincidence is this roughly coincides with the period of time that started with WW2, and had surface nuclear weapons testing.  As I am sure everyone has seen the famous mushroom cloud, a lot of particulate is put into the atmosphere.  I did a quick search, but didn't find any info about how much is put into the atmosphere, so this is only a thought that came into mind when you mentioned the time frame.  However, this seems like it may give a reason for soot in the atmosphere to suppress the effects of increased CO2.  It may be of little to no effect, but it would be worth looking into I think.  It is a fairly interesting coincidence I think.

Its not likely there is a correlation.

The cooling trend started well before any significant amount of nuclear activity.

See: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/tests/index.html

For instance between the US and Russia

Year
1945 US ~ 56 Kilotons,
1946 US ~ 46 Kt,
1947 US 0,
1948 US ~ 105 Kt,
1949 US 0,
1950 US 0
1951 US 484 kt, Russia 22

Now, compare those relatively puny amounts to 1952 when the US set off over 12,000 KT and 1954 when the US set off over 40,000 Kilotons.

So, if the cooling trend which was well underway by the early 50s had a nuclear component, the 100X increase in nuclear output in the mid 50s would have put us into a "nuclear winter"

Also, the major tests of H bombs were all water based, so no soot, and finally essentiallly all above ground tests by the USSR and the US came to an end in 62, yet the cooling trend persisted almost two decades after this above ground testing came to an end.

Arthur
lengould
QUOTE (John A+Nov 7 2007, 09:30 PM)
"As a result, adding a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide can produce a disproportionate warming, once the feedback is allowed for. "

“Can produce”?

Try this...
http://www.aai.ee/~olavi/2001JD002024u.pdf
Or, a more simple explanation...
http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2007/08/14/...by-roy-spencer/

Thanks

tongue.gif

Thanks John
lengould
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Nov 8 2007, 01:51 PM)

A.Sunlight passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected, and warms the surface of the Earth.

This is wrong or too simplified assuming we have an ozone!

B.The warm surface radiates infrared, not light (because it is cooler than the surface of the Sun),

This is incomplete, due to poor word choice?

C.and some of this outgoing infrared radiation is absorbed in the atmosphere and re- radiated in all directions. Some of the re-radiated infrared radiation goes back down and increases the temperature at the surface.
D.This is the atmospheric greenhouse effect -- and nothing to do, incidentally, with the way a greenhouse keeps warm, which is by letting sunlight in and stopping convection, trapping hot air that tries to rise under a roof of glass.

This is dumb. Exactly how is hot air different from infrared?





Yes, it is a big if but if we are forced to do it...wink.gif

MrB.

This bunch af absolute NONSENSE is quite typical, from what I'm seeing.
adoucette
QUOTE (lengould+Nov 8 2007, 12:12 PM)
Thanks John

laugh.gif

Did you read the links?

Hint:

QUOTE
Global average tropospheric temperature anomaly behaves similarly to the solar irradiance anomaly. Their daily increments show antipersistency for scales longer than 2 months. The property points at a cumulative negative feedback in the Earth climate system governing the tropospheric variability during the last 22 years. The result emphasizes a dominating role of the solar irradiance variability in variations of the tropospheric temperature and gives no support to the theory of anthropogenic climate change.


Arthur
lengould
Arthur:

All referenced scientific input is welcome, whether the poster is agreeing or not. John's reference to the Estonian university publication is appreciated. Given that the issue is NOT whether current CO2 level increases have affected climate in the recent past, but if these and projected future levels will affect climate in future (apparently inevitable, see opening post), I fail to see what your point might be?
adoucette
No, not INEVITABLE.

In fact, UNLIKELY.

Why?

Because the earth's climate has stayed within a relatively small temperature range due to the ABSENCE of POSITIVE feedback loops.

Positive feedback loops would result in much greater CLIMATIC INSTABILITY and lead to RUNAWAY conditions.

Our climate is, on the otherhand, VERY STABLE.

The second link is to Roy Spencer who argues this exact point.

Which is a REFUTATION of your first post, which includes the LONG TIME (but unproven) IPCC MANTRA that
QUOTE
adding a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide can produce a disproportionate warming, once the feedback is allowed for.


Arthur

Steveo
QUOTE
Its not likely there is a correlation.

The cooling trend started well before any significant amount of nuclear activity.


Maybe not purely nuclear. In your post before you said that it started around 1940. With WW2 underway initially this could have been because of the industrial war efforts.
Also, other nuclear countries did not stop with their surface testing until the 70's. Also, particulate in the atmosphere takes a long time to come down. Ash from volcano's effects the atmosphere for years, not just initially. So one would expect, even after the number of surface nuclear tests significantly dropped in the early 60's.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Its not likely there is a correlation.

The cooling trend started well before any significant amount of nuclear activity.


Maybe not purely nuclear. In your post before you said that it started around 1940. With WW2 underway initially this could have been because of the industrial war efforts.
Also, other nuclear countries did not stop with their surface testing until the 70's. Also, particulate in the atmosphere takes a long time to come down. Ash from volcano's effects the atmosphere for years, not just initially. So one would expect, even after the number of surface nuclear tests significantly dropped in the early 60's.


So, if the cooling trend which was well underway by the early 50s had a nuclear component, the 100X increase in nuclear output in the mid 50s would have put us into a "nuclear winter"


I disagree with this, as there are always many factors contributing to climate. For example, if CO2 has the effect that is claimed, this could offset some of the effects of the particulate in the atmosphere. It may not, but any other types of effects need to be considered.

I saw an interesting television program a few months back. The climate scientists claimed that a lot of the warming effects of increased CO2 have been masked by cooling effects of having so much particulate in the atmosphere (which apparently is reflecting 10% of the incident sunlight that we would get if not for this particulate). They argued that if we were to keep current CO2 emissions, yet cut the amount of particulate in these emissions it would actually make the warming more severe.
An argument that definately makes sense, although being on a tv program and showing no numbers its hard to know if they have the magnitudes of these effects correct.
adoucette
Yes, but the tests done after 62 were much smaller in comparison and ALL were Airdrops over water, NONE were ground bursts, thus zip ash, and zip SOx.

Consider in 64-69 only 15,000 Kt were set off and in the entire decade of the 70s only another 15,000 Kilotons were set off.

Contrast this to a SINGLE Massive Volcanic eruption such as Krakatoa which erupted in 1883. Its force was estimated at ~100,000 Kilotons.

In this case the resulting ash and stratispheric SOx caused a climatic disturbance lasting ~ 1 year with a magnitude of ~1 ° C.

Clearly if it takes this much Ash and SOx to cause an intense but shortlived climatic event, clearly an average of ~1,500 KT of nuclear bombs per year will NOT have the cooling impact we saw during the 60s/70s.

Arthur
John A
This is a new low for the alarmists! Setting up websites with fake people and fake universities with fake papers just to spread doubt.

http://www.geoclimaticstudies.info/benthic_bacteria.htm
adoucette
QUOTE
This paper also posits a mechanism for the increase in bacterial CO2 emissions. A series of natural algal blooms, beginning in the late 19th Century, have caused mass mortality among the bacteria's major predators: brachiopod molluscs of the genus Tetrarhynchia. These periods of algal bloom, as the palaeontological record shows, have been occurring for over three million years, and are always accompanied by a major increase in carbon dioxide emissions, as a result of the multiplication of bacteria when predator pressure is reduced.


Now that's written by someone with a scientific sense of humor.

Arthur
RealityCheck
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 8 2007, 03:24 AM)
Hi RC

Unfortunately this is a very unlikely explanation.

See this set of posts for temp graphs from a large number of LONG TERM RURAL weather stations from over the globe that provide a pretty consistant view of the temp trends of the last century.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

The Modern Warming period began in the mid/late 19th century and hit its first global peak around 1935-1940,

See this for the 1880 to 1935 Warming Trend.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

During this time the CO2 production was relatively very small but the amount of particulate matter was VERY HIGH (this was when the term SMOG was first coined in England) and thus the cooling effect of any particulate matter should have swamped the slight warming effect of the additional CO2.

But as you can see, the OPPOSITE was the case.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

The cooling trend didn't start until the 40s and persisted until the late 70s.

During this time the trend in pollution/particulate matter dropped in proportion to the amount of CO2 as we cleaned up our act, and since particulates have a very short life one can't claim that they were responsible for (or overwhelmed) the increasing amounts of CO2, since they clearly didn't have that effect during the first third of the 20th century.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/...us=1200&pol=reg

By the way, you can relax, even in fairly recent times its been FAR WARMER than today and NEVER have even prolonged global warm periods resulted in "Catastrophic" warming.

Arthur



Hi adoucette, everyone!

The 'data' and 'statistics' that BOTH 'sides' depend on is INCOMPLETE both in coverage and 'stratification' throughout the FULL 'suite' of mechanisms/processes that comprise the global geosphere/hydrosphere/atmosphere....especially that data gathered before 'full global coverage' and sophisticated sensors and sattelites.

The fact that such 'incomplete' (and therefore inherently ambiguous and misleading) information is vulnerable to manipulation and out-of-context (in time, space and 'continuity' terma) misconstruing to bolster one or other 'sides' of the argument is PRECISELY WHY I do NOT depend on such as the final arbiter for reaching my conclusions.

I merely recognize historical/scientific facts going to the 'biggies' that are undeniable and self-evidently supportable...and THEN test the incomplete 'facts' against the conclusions I would draw from those 'biggies'.

As I pointed out before, the TREND is always TEMPORARILY subject to 'hiccups EITHER WAY depending on TEMPORARY 'loop/cyle' effects that tend to DEVELOPE AS THINGS HAPPEN.

For example, if some warming at some time in the past set off a train of events, the NATURAL CYCLES would tend to ameliorate them UNTIL the 'tipping point' is reached where OTHER UNFORESEEN processes come into play OR have MORE importnace in the 'new regime' than they would have in the preceding 'regime'.

THESE unexpected 'players' are what consitutes the killer or saviour aspects we should be looking towards to 'explain' and 'predict' what has happened THEN and will happen NOW and in the near future.

Up to the last few centuries, the NATURAL cycle/loops/mechanisms have 'softened/prolonged the effects so that ecosystems can adapt. Where things go wrong is when the catastropHy is COMPRESSED in time/locations.

The systems we depended on in the past are essentially GONE out with the 'old regime' of processes/causes. We humans have disturbed most of the land and seabed areas of the globe. We have changed DRASTICALLY the biota/carbon-cycle in vast 'sink' mechanisms/reservoirs. We have caused a vast input DIRECTLY into the upper layers of the atmosphere with atom/nuclear blasts and airplane exhausts which MIX the upper/lower layers so that when the upper colder layers are forced DOWNWARDS, they TEMPORARILY COOL the lower layer/ground (hence some of the 'apparent cooling' readings. BUT where/when these upper layers are THEMSELVES HEATED BY THESE EXCHANGES to the point where their 'cooling' effect is lessened, THEN do we see the lower layers again 'heating up'.

These and other 'peripheral' and unexpected effects HIDE THE ACTUAL TRENDS FOR A PERIOD OF TIME so that all these 'statistics' that rare being bandied about by BOTH 'sides' are in my opinion WORTHLESS TO BEGIN WITH.

In my opinion, WHATEVER THE NATURAL CYCLE WAS BEFORE NOW, it is THE PRESENT STATE OF PLAY OF THESE 'BIGGIES' that will determine how much FASTER the trend will accelerate (whether natural and/or manmade causes are to blame for any one 'component' or 'period' in the short term.

Like I say to anyone who is really 'fair dinkum' about understanding the IMMEDIATE situation, FORGET STATISTICS AND MANIPULATION of 'incoplete' information. Instead, look at the inevitable 'tipping potential' effect of the smog-layering and 'heat island effects' of megacities and vast industrial complexes; look at the mixing effects and direct-injection effects of more and more disturbance and airplane exhausts; look at the inevitable METHANE ACCELERATOR that will emerge once the CO2 effects are no longer compensated for NATURALLY as before the last few hundred years of disturbance/skewing by man ON TOP OF WHATEVER NATURAL CAUSES MAY BE HAPPENEING which would otherwise have eventually subsided HAD WE HUMANS NOT EFFECTIVELY REDUCED/REMOVED the capacity for the Earth's natural negative/positive loop balances to play out NATURALY.

Irrespective of what is CAUSING WARMING at one time or another, it is the fact that NOW the Earth has 'lost' (through OUR vast impacts/inputs) the 'attenuation/prolongation/equilibration mechanisms that operated in the past.

I won't comment on anyone's 'statistics' because they are USELESS if we lose sight of the big picture. I make my conclusions on self-evident natural/manmade BIG PERIPHERALS which will NOW come into play as NEVER BEFORE so severely or over so short a period of time.

And THAT is sobering to me. I don't get involved in the 'petty political' argy-bargy and statistical/uathoritive/self-interested 'quoting' and 'sleights of hand' from EITHER SIDE.

I look FOR MYSELF; I think for MYSELF; I don't particularly give a fig for the pros/cons 'point-scoring' attitude to scientific OBSERVATION/CONCLUSION. I see the problem WHOLE; I see the problem LARGE; and I call it as I see DISINTERESTEDLY.

Anyhow, that's my 'take' on it all, adoucette, everyone.

Good luck with your respective 'takes' all!

RC.
.
adoucette
RC,

That first link I posted should have been this one.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=271876


Arthur
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
Good luck with your respective 'takes' all!


I don't rely on luck. I use orders of magnitude. Krakatoa says it all.

The farce has another appearance...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Good luck with your respective 'takes' all!


I don't rely on luck. I use orders of magnitude. Krakatoa says it all.

The farce has another appearance...

Subject: The warming frog that jumped post id: 3094100

For my first two entries on the Web with this paper
See
www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/newposts/3079/post3079771.shtm


Change the post to topic and this plays out...

From: bellfree campanile ® 31/07/2007 10:16:43 AM

Subject: re: Greenhouses (Yes, AGW...!) post id: 3094086



To see why the anthropogenic greenhouse effect does not, however, rely on the direct perturbation of the surface energy budget <<<

is to believe that an atmospheric window does not exist all the way to the surface!!

___-----________----


Sunlight falling on a white glacier surface strongly reflects back into space, resulting in minimal heating of the surface and lower atmosphere.
What Factors Impact a Greenhouse?
http://www.ucar.edu/learn/1_3_2_13t.htm
Modified with permission from Global Climates - Past, Present, and Future, S. Henderson, S. Holman, and L. Mortensen (Eds.). EPA Report No. EPA/600/R-93/126, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Research and Development, Washington, DC 47 - 52.


Concluding Thoughts

The ability of certain trace gases to be relatively transparent to incoming visible light from the sun, yet opaque to the energy radiated from the earth is one of the best understood processes in the atmospheric sciences. This phenomenon, the greenhouse effect, is what makes the earth habitable for life.


http://www.ucar.edu/learn/images/radiate.gif

Absorbed by land, oceans, and vegetation at the surface, the visible light is transformed into heat and re-radiates in the form of invisible infrared radiation. If that was all there was to the story, then during the day earth would heat up, but at night, all the accumulated energy would radiate back into space and the planet's surface temperature would fall far below zero very rapidly.


Greenhouse Effect

Atmospheric scientists first used the term 'greenhouse effect' in the early 1800s. At that time, it was used to describe the naturally occurring functions of trace gases in the atmosphere and did not have any negative connotations. It was not until the mid-1950s that the term greenhouse effect was coupled with concern over climate change. And in recent decades, we often hear about the greenhouse effect in somewhat negative terms.

http://www.ucar.edu/learn/1_3_1.htm

______________________________________________


From: bellfree campanile ® 31/07/2007 10:27:38 AM

Subject: re: Greenhouses (Yes, AGW...!) post id: 3094115

three is current; i've attempted to add five and six

From: Fence not Taken ® 26/07/2007 11:16:36 PM

Subject: re: greenhouse test post id: 3086716

putting the posts together

One
http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic3066929.shtm

two
http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic3076221.shtm

three
http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic3079771.shtm

four - current
http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic3084965.shtm

five
www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/newposts/3094/topic3094100.shtm

six
www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/newposts/3094/topic3094107.shtm
____________________________

Who knows if wikipedia has changed its tune on the greenhouse warmth\cooling cause? I suspect many times now that it is November. But in a substantial way... I don't bother wikipedia if I don't have to.

MrB.
User posted image
lengould
Just seems natural to me that with earth's huge ocean heat sinks there should be a significant delay between a change in natural energy balance and it's appearance on any thermometer if the oceans are not largly covered by ice. Point is, i would be surprised if any measurable current effect of recent increases in GHG levels show up on temperature measurements. Of course that doesn't hold forever..... and that rate of receeding of artic ice cover is faster than i'd expected.

It's a really stupid experiment we're doing with the only spaceship we know of which can support our species.
adoucette
Are you equally surprised that the Antarctic Sea Ice remains over 1 million sq miles over normal?

Are you equally surprised that the Arctic Sea Ice is now GROWING at a rate that has shrunk the Arctic anomaly by over 1.5 million sq miles in just over 40 days, bringing the Global anomaly to a relatively insignificant amount of ~ 0.5 million sq miles (its insignificant because its WELL within the normal range of annual variance as measured by satellites over the last 27 years).

I'm curious, do you think its MORE LIKELY that, given that ice is highly reflective and that 90% of sea ice is submerged that the melting of the Arctic sea ice is more likely to have been because of increased AIR temps or increased OCEAN temps?

Arthur

RealityCheck
.
Hi adoucette, everyone.

As lengould pointed out, there are many 'delayed' and 'side-effects' to the main trending of overall GW.

In the case of Arctic/Antarctic ice deposition rates/thicknesses, it should be mentioned that any TRANSITIONING increase in the temp differentials between poles and equatorial regions will ACCELERATE the ATMOSPHERIC convection/hydrologic driven flows from equator to poles....meaning that temporarily the ice/snow iat the poles will become MORE frequent/massive UNPREDICTABLY for some decades to come.

And at any one time, IF the evaporation of land/seawater in the tropics is greater due to local warming, the eventual convection/deposition will oinvolve more moisture at faster rates of exchange from tropics to poles. So again, all these temporary hiccups to the 'perceived' effects of GW should be kept in perspective as to OOVERALL TREND....and NOT be 'lost' in the 'temporary refrigeration' effects of melting icecaps and/or atmospheric/hydrologic flows/convections/depositions IN THE TRANSITION PERIOD until the ability of these temporary self-compensting/ameliorating effects has been exhausted when the temp differentials reach a NEW EQUILIBRIUM AT A HIGHER LEVEL THAN NOW.


This and many other TRANSITIONAL and 'temporary side-effect' BIGGIES will 'confuse' the statistical/observable situation for some time yet. BUT the point will be reached when these 'transitional' variations/states become THE NEW NORM. And if that norm is too much HOTTER, then the new norm will be chaotic indeed compared to what we have been used to.

I wish our children and grandchilren good luck with that...and hope they don't curse us too freely for THIS generation not being the latest and best phase of the 'intelligent' homo 'sapiens' we pretend to be, hehehe.

Cheers all!

RC.
.
adoucette
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 9 2007, 06:55 PM)
In the case of Arctic/Antarctic ice deposition rates/thicknesses, it should be mentioned that any TRANSITIONING increase in the temp differentials between poles and equatorial regions will ACCELERATE the ATMOSPHERIC convection/hydrologic driven flows from equator to poles....meaning that temporarily the ice/snow iat the poles will become MORE frequent/massive UNPREDICTABLY for some decades to come.


Except the TREND has been the OPPOSITE, its been to REDUCED differentials between the poles and the equatorial regions.

What is also evident, if you look at these many temp graphs,

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...15&#entry271876

is that the amount of annual VARIATION is reduced in the latter half of the 20th century in comparison to the first half. Certainly an indication of a more STABLE climate.

Consider that in the US there has been a decline in the rate of landfalling storms in the later half of the 20th century compared with the first half.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/Deadliest_Costliest.shtml

Table 6 shows that during the forty year period 1961-2000 both the number and intensity of landfalling U.S. hurricanes decreased sharply.

Based on 1901 - 1960 statistics, the expected number of hurricanes and major hurricanes during the period 1961- 2000 would have been 75 and 28, respectively but only 55 of the expected number struck the U.S. and only 20 were major hurricanes (71%).

Then there is this latest year, with an ACE index significantly below normal.

Arthur



RealityCheck
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 10 2007, 12:30 AM)
Except the TREND has been the OPPOSITE, its been to REDUCED differentials between the poles and the equatorial regions.

What is also evident, if you look at these many temp graphs,

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...15?entry271876

is that the amount of annual VARIATION is reduced in the latter half of the 20th century in comparison to the first half. Certainly an indication of a more STABLE climate.

Consider that in the US there has been a decline in the rate of landfalling storms in the later half of the 20th century compared with the first  half.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/Deadliest_Costliest.shtml 

Table 6 shows that during the forty year period 1961-2000 both the number and intensity of landfalling U.S. hurricanes decreased sharply.

Based on 1901 - 1960 statistics, the expected number of hurricanes and major hurricanes during the period 1961- 2000  would have been 75 and 28, respectively but only 55 of the expected number struck the U.S. and only 20 were major hurricanes (71%).

Then there is this latest year, with an ACE index significantly below normal.

Arthur



As I pointed out, short term 'trends' during 'transitional' periods will show 'cooling' wherever/whenever the extra circulatory instabilities/accelerations/severities are 'activated'. So naturally, as I pointed to also, there will be localised/temporary 'cooling' events UNTIL the overall LONG term trend is established/initiated by the 'exhaustion' of these 'temporary cooling' side-effects...which will disappear once the whole globe (and more than just the 'tropics' reach a new ans unameliorated higher 'normal' temp.

Again, I keep away from depending on these transient vagaries; and look at what will be when no more naturally-cycling 'cooling' capacity/process will re-establish for a long time afterwards (when the disturbance/inputs from us is forcibly limited/reversed by natural chaos that will make it difficult for us to do as we have been doing to date).

Don't be blinded by 'temporary statistics'. Keep an eye on the 'biggies' I mentioned before. It is THEY that will 'take over' the 'trending' after a critical point is reached in any temporary 'trends as are 'indicated' by the transitional period statistical 'arguments/facts'.

Cheers adoucette! Cheers everyone!

RC.
.
adoucette
Seems like nothing is "Final"

Found this the other day:

As the world marks 20 years since the introduction of the Montreal Protocol to protect the ozone layer, Nature has learned of experimental data that threaten to shatter established theories of ozone chemistry. If the data are right, scientists will have to rethink their understanding of how ozone holes are formed and how that relates to climate change.

Markus Rex, an atmosphere scientist at the Alfred Wegener Institute of Polar and Marine Research in Potsdam, Germany, did a double-take when he saw new data for the break-down rate of a crucial molecule, dichlorine peroxide (Cl2O2). The rate of photolysis (light-activated splitting) of this molecule reported by chemists at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California1, was extremely low in the wavelengths available in the stratosphere - almost an order of magnitude lower than the currently accepted rate.

“This must have far-reaching consequences,” Rex says. “If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being.” What effect the results have on projections of the speed or extent of ozone depletion remains unclear.

Other groups have yet to confirm the new photolysis rate, but the conundrum is already causing much debate and uncertainty in the ozone research community. “Our understanding of chloride chemistry has really been blown apart,” says John Crowley, an ozone researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Chemistry in Mainz, Germany.

“Until recently everything looked like it fitted nicely,” agrees Neil Harris, an atmosphere scientist who heads the European Ozone Research Coordinating Unit at the University of Cambridge, UK. “Now suddenly it’s like a plank has been pulled out of a bridge.”


http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070924/full/449382a.html

Arthur

MisterBelfry


Quotes gathered from an 'original' RC post. I was mainly seeing if biggie was defined well enough.
QUOTE

In my opinion, WHATEVER THE NATURAL CYCLE WAS BEFORE NOW, it is THE PRESENT STATE OF PLAY OF THESE 'BIGGIES' that will determine how much FASTER the trend will accelerate (whether natural and/or manmade causes are to blame for any one 'component' or 'period' in the short term.
I merely recognize historical/scientific facts going to the 'biggies' that are undeniable and self-evidently supportable...and THEN test the incomplete 'facts' against the conclusions I would draw from those 'biggies'.
Up to the last few centuries, the NATURAL cycle/loops/mechanisms have 'softened/prolonged the effects so that ecosystems can adapt. Where things go wrong is when the catastropHy is COMPRESSED in time/locations.



So, God hears prayers, so what? If people are not around, why softened the natural loop? Sinners do not have to be dealt with in one certain way, that is destroyed in the natural cycle of things, "scientifically" higher and higher entropy.

MrB.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Nov 11 2007, 03:46 PM)
Quotes gathered from an 'original' RC post. I was mainly seeing if biggie was defined well enough.


So, God hears prayers, so what?  If people are not around, why softened the natural loop?  Sinners do not have to be dealt with in one certain way, that is destroyed in the natural cycle of things, "scientifically" higher and higher entropy.

MrB.



Hi MisterBelfry! Pleased to meet ya.

Where did 'god' etc come into the discussion, mate?

The 'biggies' referred to are the methane reservoirs and exhaustion of ameliorating processes that 'transitionally' hide the real trend....and the greater dangers which ANY significant warming will present....simply because it may TRIGGER worse processes that WILL take the warming to extremes even MORE than CO2 effects may.

That's all as to 'biggies', MB. No more; no less.

So I suggest you re-do your assessment based on the facts rather than your apparent misconceptions of them. Cheers!

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 11 2007, 03:33 PM)
Seems like nothing is "Final"

Found this the other day:

As the world marks 20 years since the introduction of the Montreal Protocol to protect the ozone layer, Nature has learned of experimental data that threaten to shatter established theories of ozone chemistry. If the data are right, scientists will have to rethink their understanding of how ozone holes are formed and how that relates to climate change.

Markus Rex, an atmosphere scientist at the Alfred Wegener Institute of Polar and Marine Research in Potsdam, Germany, did a double-take when he saw new data for the break-down rate of a crucial molecule, dichlorine peroxide (Cl2O2). The rate of photolysis (light-activated splitting) of this molecule reported by chemists at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California1, was extremely low in the wavelengths available in the stratosphere - almost an order of magnitude lower than the currently accepted rate.

“This must have far-reaching consequences,” Rex says. “If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being.” What effect the results have on projections of the speed or extent of ozone depletion remains unclear.

Other groups have yet to confirm the new photolysis rate, but the conundrum is already causing much debate and uncertainty in the ozone research community. “Our understanding of chloride chemistry has really been blown apart,” says John Crowley, an ozone researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Chemistry in Mainz, Germany.

“Until recently everything looked like it fitted nicely,” agrees Neil Harris, an atmosphere scientist who heads the European Ozone Research Coordinating Unit at the University of Cambridge, UK. “Now suddenly it’s like a plank has been pulled out of a bridge.”


http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070924/full/449382a.html

Arthur


Hi adoucette!

IIRC, wasn't there also another mechanism/reaction posyulated as well as the Chlorine-mediated ones?

Nitrogen Oxides and high-atmospere snow/ice crystals near the polar regions?

I can't remeber details or where I read it.

Since splitting DOES occur per se (at least 10% even by their own estimation) do they present any reason why a particular percentage and not all such molecules would split.

Or is there some 'preference' for one particular Cl2O2 molecule and not nine others?

And what exactly are these measurements which they speculate about even before they determine one one or the other "...if true...."?

It seems the only thing that is 'forever' is the wild conclusions before any 'filtering' for extraneous factors etc which may prove them NOT to be "true" as surmised.

Is this self-advertising or real scientific method application by those trumpeting the yet-to-be verified observations/results?

I don't wonder lay people are confused when 'speculation' based on yet to be 'if true' data is promulgated for sensational (and maybe political) interests.

Future developments in this 'sensational' saga will be an interesting study in how some [people 'do science', hehehe. I recall many other instances of 'if true' bandwagons of sensation in tghe past.

I hope this is not just 'more of the same' from self-interested individuals/organisations too eager to make a splash at the cost of prudent research method.

Cheers adoucette, all!

RC.
.
John A
GW ALARMISM IS SCIENCE POLLUTION!
sirfiroth
I thought this might be of interest to some out there. I did not see it posted on any other discussion.
7000 year old trees
What are trees doing that far north? Could this indicate the earth’s climate was much warmer 7000 years ago? Could this be indicative of natural cycles of the Earth heating and cooling?
Regards,
Jacob
lengould
QUOTE (John A+Nov 12 2007, 01:32 AM)
GW ALARMISM IS SCIENCE POLLUTION!

How would you know? rolleyes.gif
AEBanner
I have recently been having a problem with accepting Real Climate’s “Saturated Gassy Argument”, which tries to explain the Enhanced GHG effect. As far as I can see, it is incomplete and so it is also misleading.

Please consider the following.

Let C = total number of carbon dioxide molecules in the pre-industrial atmosphere at 280ppmv
k = the increase factor in CO2 concentration relative to pre-industrial conc. of 280ppmv.
s = proportion of emitted photons escaping to space
win = total number of photons escaping to space through the “window” per unit time

For CO2 increase factor k, let
b = proportion of carbon dioxide molecules excited by absorption of photons, and
intermolecular collisions

Then, number of CO2 molecules excited by absorption/collision = kbC

All these molecules emit photons.

Let the following expressions apply for unit time, where p is the appropriate constant of proportionality.

Then in general, we have:
Number of photons escaping to space = pskbC + win ………………….. (Eqn 1)

Now consider the case of the pre-industrial atmosphere.
We can put k = 1 and b = b1.
Then, number of photons escaping to space = psb1.C + win …….....(Eqn 2)

Now in energy balance conditions, the number of photons escaping to space must be constant.
Therefore, from Eqn (1) and Eqn (2), we have pskbC + win = psb1.C + win
Hence, kb = b1

But b1 is a constant.

So as k increases, b must decrease for this relationship to be satisfied and energy balance to be maintained. That is, as the amount of carbon dioxide is increased, the proportion of the number of CO2 molecules participating in the process is reduced. This requirement can be accommodated by a fall in temperature from the pre-industrial value at high altitudes.

This means that increased CO2 produces extra COOLING at high altitudes.


What happens in the atmosphere?

In general,
Number of photons returning to the atmosphere = p(1 – s )kbC ……....… (Eqn 3)


And for the case of the pre-industrial atmosphere, k = 1 and b = b1, as before.
So, the number of photons returning to the pre-industrial atmosphere = p(1 – s )b1.C …..(Eqn 4)

Therefore, the change in photons returning to the atmosphere = p(1 – s )kbC – p(1 – s )b1.C
= p(1 – s )C(kb – b1)

But, in energy equilibrium, kb = b1.

Therefore, the change in the number of photons returning to the atmosphere = 0

This means that there is no change in the temperature of the atmosphere due to increasing the amount of CO2 present.

That is, there is no enhanced GHG effect.
Corvidae
QUOTE
Now in energy balance conditions, the number of photons escaping to space must be constant.

Energy balance isn't quite so easy an assumption to make.
AEBanner
In my previous post, I tried to show that more carbon dioxide added to the Earth’s atmosphere would have no heating effect as in the Enhanced Greenhouse Gas Effect we hear so much about. Perhaps my message got lost in the maths in the post, so I should like to add a few words in further explanation.

I do not believe in the Enhanced GHG effect. I do not think that extra carbon dioxide will have any effect on the Earth’s temperature.

I do believe, however, that some other effect, not yet identified, could be causing global warming.

Firstly, I should like to refer Spencer Weart’s article on the Real Climate site entitled “A Saturated Gassy Argument”, SGA.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archi...ument/#more-455

This work implicitly seems to accept that carbon dioxide and water vapour can absorb 100% of the infrared radiation from the surface of the Earth. Most of this energy is radiated back to the surface. See Kiehl and Trenberth
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/abstracts/files/kevin1997_1.html
This is the natural GHG effect, and occurs at relatively low altitudes. No argument. For the purpose of easy discussion, let us consider the atmosphere to consist of three regions, lower and upper troposphere, and high altitude as in SGA.

The infrared which is not radiated back to the surface heats the troposphere by increasing the kinetic energy of the molecules by inter-molecular collisions.

Heat energy also leaves the surface as sensible heat, convection and latent heat, which rises to the upper troposphere where it too provides warming. Kiehl and Trenberth show that sufficient energy is provided to this region by these means for the necessary 165 Wm^-2 to escape to space in order to enable energy balance for the Earth’s system. ( Together with 30 Wm^-2 from the clouds and 40 Wm^-2 through the “window”. ) I suggest that the available energy is converted into the necessary photon form by inter-molecular collisions with CO2 in the upper troposphere and at high altitudes.

Some of the photons about to escape into space at high altitudes will be absorbed by CO2 molecules even at this height, as stated in the SGA, but it is at this point that my ideas diverge from the SGA.

The excited CO2 molecules will decay again to a lower rotational level, either spontaneously or by collision, so emitting photons. Some of these emitted photons will escape to space as required, and some will return to the atmosphere, but the temperature will be adjusted by the overall feedback system so that energy balance will be maintained.

It is important to understand that only a small proportion of the total atmospheric CO2 is involved in this process. The relevant actions are occurring at high altitudes “where the air is very thin”, after all, not throughout the whole atmosphere. This proportion is dependent on the temperature of that region. The number of CO2 molecules involved will be set at this temperature to provide the required number of outgoing photons to get energy balance.

If now, more CO2 is added, more photons will join in the process and escape to space, so tending to reduce the temperature, and upsetting the balance. Correction is provided by the emitting region moving to still higher altitudes, ( in line with the SGA ), where the temperature is lower, and so the emission rate is reduced, as required.

Note that the number of CO2 molecules involved must be constant, so that when more CO2 is added, the proportion involved is reduced accordingly. This is shown mathematically by the equation kb = b1 in my previous post.

I suggest that final escape to space occurs at higher and colder altitudes because the proportion of CO2 molecules participating must be less, not greater, when more CO2 is added, in order for equilibrium. The total number of CO2 molecules participating has to stay constant.

The problem with the SGA is that it stops too soon for the flaw to be seen. The crux of the SGA is where it refers to extra CO2 molecules absorbing photons at high altitudes. It neglects to say anything about the next, inevitable process, which is the following decay, with the “centralised energy packet” within the excited molecule distributing its energy into the various states available to it, in line with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Must not forget that!

So, no extra global warming from added CO2.
Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (AEBanner+Jan 15 2008, 11:25 PM)
I have recently been having a problem with accepting Real Climate’s “Saturated Gassy Argument”, which tries to explain the Enhanced GHG effect. As far as I can see, it is incomplete and so it is also misleading.

Please consider the following.

Let C = total number of carbon dioxide molecules in the pre-industrial atmosphere at 280ppmv
k = the increase factor in CO2 concentration relative to pre-industrial conc. of 280ppmv.
s = proportion of emitted photons escaping to space
win = total number of photons escaping to space through the “window” per unit time

For CO2 increase factor k, let
b = proportion of carbon dioxide molecules excited by absorption of photons, and
intermolecular collisions

Then, number of CO2 molecules excited by absorption/collision = kbC

All these molecules emit photons.

Let the following expressions apply for unit time, where p is the appropriate constant of proportionality.

Then in general, we have:
Number of photons escaping to space = pskbC + win ………………….. (Eqn 1)

Now consider the case of the pre-industrial atmosphere.
We can put k = 1 and b = b1.
Then, number of photons escaping to space = psb1.C + win …….....(Eqn 2)

Now in energy balance conditions, the number of photons escaping to space must be constant.
Therefore, from Eqn (1) and Eqn (2), we have pskbC + win = psb1.C + win
Hence, kb = b1

But b1 is a constant.

So as k increases, b must decrease for this relationship to be satisfied and energy balance to be maintained. That is, as the amount of carbon dioxide is increased, the proportion of the number of CO2 molecules participating in the process is reduced. This requirement can be accommodated by a fall in temperature from the pre-industrial value at high altitudes.

This means that increased CO2 produces extra COOLING at high altitudes.


What happens in the atmosphere?

In general,
Number of photons returning to the atmosphere = p(1 – s )kbC ……....… (Eqn 3)


And for the case of the pre-industrial atmosphere, k = 1 and b = b1, as before.
So, the number of photons returning to the pre-industrial atmosphere = p(1 – s )b1.C …..(Eqn 4)

Therefore, the change in photons returning to the atmosphere = p(1 – s )kbC – p(1 – s )b1.C
= p(1 – s )C(kb – b1)

But, in energy equilibrium, kb = b1.

Therefore, the change in the number of photons returning to the atmosphere = 0

This means that there is no change in the temperature of the atmosphere due to increasing the amount of CO2 present.

That is, there is no enhanced GHG effect.

what accounts for their escape from the earth's atmosphere?
AEBanner
To Neil Farbstein

Please refer to my other post above.

AEB
Corvidae
QUOTE
Note that the number of CO2 molecules involved must be constant, so that when more CO2 is added, the proportion involved is reduced accordingly. This is shown mathematically by the equation kb = b1 in my previous post.


Still assuming constants that don't exist I see.
AEBanner
To Corvidae

Please read my posts again, but give your full attention next time.

Or perhaps you don't believe in Mathematics?

AEB
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