According to evolutionary theory mankind should become like Jesus or perish. Surprisingly, it turns out Jesus is the evolutionary prototype for mankind's next evolutionary leap - exactly fulfilling the evolutionary requirements for such a prototype. A mutant at birth, and as such was the first member of a new species who proved his staying power by being resurrected. As such members of the old species are faced with the choice of transforming and becoming like Jesus or becoming extinct.
If evolution is true then who in history would be a prototype for human evolution? Who was different at birth and who is the greatest survivor? Jesus is the most logical choice, no one else in history has had as much influence - but evolutionists stop being evolutionists at this point and become blind zealots in the cause ignorance.
While Jesus did not procreate - his "genes" are in billions of people. In accepting Jesus he becomes a part of us and we become a part of him. Each of us becomes a new person with new qualities that we inherit from him. A babe in the womb has the qualities of both its mother and its father. When we accept Jesus, God becomes our new and eternal father. And as new beings each of us takes up the qualities of Jesus. Jesus is loving and forgiving and we become like him. Jesus has already died and risen to eternal life and from union with Jesus we inherit everlasting life.
In being born again we are incorporating into our being someone who has died and yet lived again. It is like incorporating the genetic ability to overcome death - accepting Jesus brings to us his immortality.
If one's bothers to actually study where Darwin got his idea's you will find that it was from his grandfather and the Victorian society around him. There is a a one to one correlation of themes between Christianity and Evolution. This is no accident; Darwin took from Christian thought and simply gave things a different name. For example redemption became survival and so on. The main differences are the Christianity is concerned with the redemption of the unfit and Evolution then focused on the survival of the fittest (that is until it became PC incorrect). The other main difference is that in Christianity God is in charge whereas in Evolution things happen by chance.
Evolution became popular not with the people but with government and business for selfish reasons. Each then could point and the unemployed and down and outs of society and say that "that just the way the world is" and have a better chance that people would accept it and not revolt. Evolution is not science, it does not even qualify to regarded as a theory it is only an idea the has become the religion of wealth and politics.
I agree, if people really took evolution seriously they would come to Jesus as mankind next step.
now you KNOW that the real Tachyon would have used more words 
the first thread on this exact same topic was dead. Mabye you forgot that nobody on these forums agreed with you?
the first thread on this exact same topic was dead. Mabye you forgot that nobody on these forums agreed with you?
Is this a science site? Blind zealots? Mutant at birth? I think Jesus would be offended if he knew you were using his name this way. Stop making things up.
I love it. Evolution is not an original thought. Stripped naked one can see why it hates Christainity so much – that where it got all its ideas.
QUOTE (Tachyon8492+Aug 26 2005, 10:26 PM)
I agree, if people really took evolution seriously they would come to Jesus as mankind next step.
Hum WHAT B.S. you talk of.
Hum WHAT B.S. you talk of.
um......... I basiclly read No1nose post so i can humor myself.
I was reading about creationism on Wiki and all of the creationism theorys. I mean there have been alot of creationism theories over the years but lets be fair, theres been alot of theories about atoms too. But i noticed over the years the arguements have slowly changed until after hundreds of years they look like a new theory. It seems like they have... lets say "evolved" into a new theory.
We can't evolve into jesus because evolution involves reproduction by "SEX" something that the god child isn't supposed to be involved with.
Is Darwin guilty of plagarism, cause i don't remeber seeing him using the bible as a source.
I was reading about creationism on Wiki and all of the creationism theorys. I mean there have been alot of creationism theories over the years but lets be fair, theres been alot of theories about atoms too. But i noticed over the years the arguements have slowly changed until after hundreds of years they look like a new theory. It seems like they have... lets say "evolved" into a new theory.
We can't evolve into jesus because evolution involves reproduction by "SEX" something that the god child isn't supposed to be involved with.
Is Darwin guilty of plagarism, cause i don't remeber seeing him using the bible as a source.
Central to Christian belief is the concept of being born again. The idea here is that in accepting Jesus one’s incorporates the element of immortality into one’s being. Not exactly sex but then the identity of Jesus, has over history, been incorporated into billions of people which surely makes him the number one candidate as mankind’s evolutionary prototype.
Im not sure how that makes sense. I read the bible,.. ok part of it ( the part about the smiting, the killing, and the stoning of sinners and nonbelievers) Im pretty sure it doesn't mention any of what your saying unless you want to read in something.
Try reading John chapter 3. –then try to pretend that you are an egg in your mother's womb. Now it’s your choice - who do you want as your father in the next life? And whose identity will you take on to be made into a whole person. My choice is Jesus. He has already died and lived again and so if I choose him then a part of me will “know” how to die and live again. The Bible says that we inherit eternal life – just as we inherited physical attributes from our first parents.
Hi All,
Seems to me if you have a genetic prototype and "destroy" it then you get no "Mark II's".
What is it you are saying... If there were other "Jesus" Prototypes around at the time please indicate to me where/who they were? Why are they so totally "undistinguished". Do not quote the Da Vinci Code... it is just a work of fiction. You may as well quote Donald Duck there. Is Jesus a "God" or a man? Are you going to elevate the offspring of evolution to a "God"? I think it is always a kind of Idolatry to call Jesus "God" and it is a disrespect to the true Creator. Jesus was the greatest example we know of man but this is no reason to make him a God. If he wanted it he would not have left any doubt about this issue. Resurrection is no proof it is only a mastery over his body demonstrated there. Since there is surely doubt that Jesus ever claimed "Godhood"... this makes me distrust the concept at its base. The fact that he never said so is strong proof. The "Son of God" is not the same concept. It would not have been left up to a "Caesar" to determine this fact.
Being "Born Again" sounds like the Hindu concept of the Wheel of Life. Why does this have any relevance to Christians in any way other than the "obvious" as taken by the most ancient Christian Sects in the vicinity of Jerusalem/Palestine... the Maronites, they still exist to this day and are shunned by most other Christian Sects who all hail originally from Rome - the persecutors and killers of Jesus. They interpret "born again" as Reincarnation. They are an ancient order and sounds like they are more likely to be correct in the way they view this issue. This other "romanized" version is likely to be wrong since it was interpreted for the Roman Consumer.
Evolution does not happen by "Virgin Births"..... if so where are these "Virgin Births" today? Is this "Evolution" or some new fangled "Space Religion"? You should all stop smoking dope, its ruining the mental faculties.
Insert sane theory in this "space" please.
before it "implodes" with the vacuum.
Cheers
Seems to me if you have a genetic prototype and "destroy" it then you get no "Mark II's".
What is it you are saying... If there were other "Jesus" Prototypes around at the time please indicate to me where/who they were? Why are they so totally "undistinguished". Do not quote the Da Vinci Code... it is just a work of fiction. You may as well quote Donald Duck there. Is Jesus a "God" or a man? Are you going to elevate the offspring of evolution to a "God"? I think it is always a kind of Idolatry to call Jesus "God" and it is a disrespect to the true Creator. Jesus was the greatest example we know of man but this is no reason to make him a God. If he wanted it he would not have left any doubt about this issue. Resurrection is no proof it is only a mastery over his body demonstrated there. Since there is surely doubt that Jesus ever claimed "Godhood"... this makes me distrust the concept at its base. The fact that he never said so is strong proof. The "Son of God" is not the same concept. It would not have been left up to a "Caesar" to determine this fact.
Being "Born Again" sounds like the Hindu concept of the Wheel of Life. Why does this have any relevance to Christians in any way other than the "obvious" as taken by the most ancient Christian Sects in the vicinity of Jerusalem/Palestine... the Maronites, they still exist to this day and are shunned by most other Christian Sects who all hail originally from Rome - the persecutors and killers of Jesus. They interpret "born again" as Reincarnation. They are an ancient order and sounds like they are more likely to be correct in the way they view this issue. This other "romanized" version is likely to be wrong since it was interpreted for the Roman Consumer.
Evolution does not happen by "Virgin Births"..... if so where are these "Virgin Births" today? Is this "Evolution" or some new fangled "Space Religion"? You should all stop smoking dope, its ruining the mental faculties.
Insert sane theory in this "space" please.
before it "implodes" with the vacuum.Cheers
This forum is really BS from the beginning to the end. Full of Jesus freaks everywhere around here.
PLEASE CALL THIS WEBSITE JESUSORG.COM
I forgot: no1nose, u mean idunnonothingexeptbible would be more appropriate for your nickname
hmm.
Good science includes being willing to consider theories we may not like. I don't see much evidence of that here.
if there's anything that's not utter drivel in no1nose's post, it's the idea of Jesus being an idealised human.
this is a common theme of much folklore and mythology - creating, perhaps based on some long-forgotten true story, 'impossible' characters for the purpose of teaching some principles of life. The greeks of course were particularly good at this, with Achilles, the whole story of Troy et al.
It is natural that when stories are passed down from generation they will become stylised, different aspects will be highlighted according to each new story teller's objectives.
this is a common theme of much folklore and mythology - creating, perhaps based on some long-forgotten true story, 'impossible' characters for the purpose of teaching some principles of life. The greeks of course were particularly good at this, with Achilles, the whole story of Troy et al.
It is natural that when stories are passed down from generation they will become stylised, different aspects will be highlighted according to each new story teller's objectives.
The notion of an 'evolutionary prototype' indicates complete failure to grasp even the very basics of evolution. Even the 3rd grade version of the theory should be enough to make clear that there is no target, therefore no protype. The process is, of course, incremental improvements with no prior information. The most contrary position you could take while retaining the support of the evidence at hand is that sea changes outweigh minor events--but I believe that cannot at this point be divorced from the question of environmental transitions. Regardless, no prior knowledge is indicated. Quite the contrary, which is why there are so many examples of vestigal functions, let alone the the cases where a facility has been lost and then reacquired through an independant mechanism. The flat earthers won't grasp this, but it is a pointless waste of effort to attempt to force-spoon-feed them reason.
Not sure who is the flat earthers - your reasoning is 85% air.
I'm not sure what name calling is suppose to do - maybe you could explain that to me.
I thin no1nose has got you guys dead to rights. It looks like you all gone away and hid.
Well, if we have to take written texts as being true, the writings translated from Sumerian, Babylonian and Urian stone tablets, tablets that pre-date the earliest written records of genesis and Abraham by a thousand years, speak of Gods that came to earth and created/trained Humans as servants. These Gods lived for thousands of years and were known to interbreed with Humans at certain points. Some of these tales survived into the book of genesis, like the text in Genesis that mentioned that the children of God walked the earth and breeded with Humans creating Giants.
So, if someone says something is true because it is in the bible, well there are even older written records, so those Must be True also.
So, if someone says something is true because it is in the bible, well there are even older written records, so those Must be True also.
I regard this post as an indication of dumbness. The salvation story is common to many ancient cultures. Parallels between cultures include the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of the savior. Bits and pieces of the story are scattered all over the world. For example the first several chapters of Genesis form a basis for many Chinese word forms (the character for “sin” is made up of the sub characters for “woman”, “secretly” and “eating” ). The signs of zodiac contain many stars whose names when translated from Arabic are phrases from the Old Testament ( Virgo – a woman holding and branch and a staff of wheat – “virgin” “branch of Jesse” and “seed of woman”). This is the story that no one on earth can escape. Even when we try to make up something completely new like evolution it turns out to be the same message in disguise ( as no1nose as pointed out in this thread). Evolution is a corrupted form of the Christian message as was many of the ancient myths in times of old.
Pretty much bang on. No wonder there are some who want to shut us down 
QUOTE
I regard this post as an indication of dumbness. The salvation story is common to many ancient cultures. Parallels between cultures include the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of the savior.
Your arguement is "silly" as most cultures laugh at the virgin birth becuase its uniquic and a stupid idea. just like the one creation myth that some guy killed a dragon and the dragon's entrials formed the universe. or the one that "Moonies" believe that the creator was playing in the mud as a child and formed the world (which makes no sense at all). as some one who has studied other cultures i don't see the virgin birth often and the asian people i know think the bible is a ridiculous.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I regard this post as an indication of dumbness. The salvation story is common to many ancient cultures. Parallels between cultures include the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of the savior. |
Your arguement is "silly" as most cultures laugh at the virgin birth becuase its uniquic and a stupid idea. just like the one creation myth that some guy killed a dragon and the dragon's entrials formed the universe. or the one that "Moonies" believe that the creator was playing in the mud as a child and formed the world (which makes no sense at all). as some one who has studied other cultures i don't see the virgin birth often and the asian people i know think the bible is a ridiculous.For example the first several chapters of Genesis form a basis for many Chinese word forms (the character for “sin” is made up of the sub characters for “woman”, “secretly” and “eating” ).
no surprise since the chinese had 27 some words to say the word "sword", but i still don't see any point to your arguement. did some one tell you all of these magically translations or did you check them out yourself. even if they did mean these things then so what, it doesnt prove anything. people name stars after all sorts of things that were common in their life.
I think you must understand that the bible has hundreds of holes. There is no proof of a massive flood, no proof of (insert text of bible) and no proof of anything else. All of the things that happen as the will of God was they way of explaining to people why certian things happened that they could not explain with their limited knowledge.
I think you must understand that the bible has hundreds of holes. There is no proof of a massive flood, no proof of (insert text of bible) and no proof of anything else. All of the things that happen as the will of God was they way of explaining to people why certian things happened that they could not explain with their limited knowledge.
You two are starting to sound like religious fanatics.
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Evolution is a corrupted form of the Christian message as was many of the ancient myths in times of old.
evol is not simular to any myth cause most myths say "earth and life created instantly, evol says earth and life created slowly over time". QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Evolution is a corrupted form of the Christian message as was many of the ancient myths in times of old. |
evol is not simular to any myth cause most myths say "earth and life created instantly, evol says earth and life created slowly over time". I regard this post as an indication of dumbness.
I have to point out that most of this forum has pointed out your "dumbness". why we want to "shut you down" is because we don't want "stupid" people teaching our kids your ridiculous ideas of how the world works in your imagination. I mean if the pope can say its ok to believe in evol (which is the majority of christians by the way) then it can't mean that evol is that radical of an idea just because it scares you. 
QUOTE (mc3+Aug 29 2005, 08:36 PM)
The notion of an 'evolutionary prototype' indicates complete failure to grasp even the very basics of evolution. Even the 3rd grade version of the theory should be enough to make clear that there is no target, therefore no protype. The process is, of course, incremental improvements with no prior information.
Why did no one read this post? This is the end of the argument. There is no such thing as an evolutionary prototype. I am a religious person also, but I can't stand people inserting "Jesus" into discussions that have nothing to do with religion - it gives religion a bad rap when it is actually a force for good in many people's lives.
Why did no one read this post? This is the end of the argument. There is no such thing as an evolutionary prototype. I am a religious person also, but I can't stand people inserting "Jesus" into discussions that have nothing to do with religion - it gives religion a bad rap when it is actually a force for good in many people's lives.
You two are starting to sound like religious fanatics. To be honest you are doing yourselves more damage than my posts ever would. You really must accept that many well read and intelligent people see evolution as a very flawed idea –not theory and certainly not a fact. Name calling and trying to “off” people really doesn’t help your cause.
QUOTE
You two are starting to sound like religious fanatics. To be honest you are doing yourselves more damage than my posts ever would. You really must accept that many well read and intelligent people see evolution as a very flawed idea –not theory and certainly not a fact.
I think you must understand that the bible has hundreds of holes. There is no proof of a massive flood, no proof of (insert text of bible) and no proof of anything else. All of the things that happen as the will of God was they way of explaining to people why certian things happened that they could not explain with their limited knowledge.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You two are starting to sound like religious fanatics. To be honest you are doing yourselves more damage than my posts ever would. You really must accept that many well read and intelligent people see evolution as a very flawed idea –not theory and certainly not a fact. |
I think you must understand that the bible has hundreds of holes. There is no proof of a massive flood, no proof of (insert text of bible) and no proof of anything else. All of the things that happen as the will of God was they way of explaining to people why certian things happened that they could not explain with their limited knowledge.
You two are starting to sound like religious fanatics.
\
I believe you have resorted to name calling or 'labeling' as you will. Please, if you have to critize me of something, don't be guilty of the same thing.
after reading alot of religous banter on a forum for physics i doubt that i am the one who sounds like a religous fanatic (this means you no1nose).
I believe you have resorted to name calling or 'labeling' as you will. Please, if you have to critize me of something, don't be guilty of the same thing.
after reading alot of religous banter on a forum for physics i doubt that i am the one who sounds like a religous fanatic (this means you no1nose).
To be honest you are doing yourselves more damage than my posts ever would.
To be honest, all the post that argue against you main thread have been extremely intelligent and well explained. If you have to resort to having a personal attack against me and others in order to support your arguement......
Thank GOD someone else has studied the xian myth objectively.
Jesus, like virtually all mythical godmen, is a historicized character that represents the sun. All events in the life of jesus, and all major characters in the bible are related to astrological events.
In order to attract followers, the early xian leaders combined as many different myths as they could. That way they could say "Look, our religion is friendly to the beliefs you already have!" Then, a few centuries later, they said "Wait, ours isn't a myth - our god really DID come to earth."
Subsequently, they murdered anyone who disagreed and burned any documents that said otherwise - that much is indisputable.
Evolution became popular not with the people but with government and business for selfish reasons. Each then could point and the unemployed and down and outs of society and say that "that just the way the world is" and have a better chance that people would accept it and not revolt. Evolution is not science, it does not even qualify to regarded as a theory it is only an idea the has become the religion of wealth and politics.
According to evolutionary theory mankind should become like Jesus or perish. Surprisingly, it turns out Jesus is the evolutionary prototype for mankind's next evolutionary leap - exactly fulfilling the evolutionary requirements for such a prototype. A mutant at birth, and as such was the first member of a new species who proved his staying power by being resurrected. As such members of the old species are faced with the choice of transforming and becoming like Jesus or becoming extinct.
The theory of evolution as commonly understood does not anywhere state or imply mankind has to 'become like jesus or perish." Straw man argument, anyone?
I don't think your comments about Jesus being a mutant have anything to do with reality. To be fair though, he may have been a mutant, although the living dead are conventionally considered zombies!
If evolution is true then who in history would be a prototype for human evolution? Who was different at birth and who is the greatest survivor? Jesus is the most logical choice, no one else in history has had as much influence - but evolutionists stop being evolutionists at this point and become blind zealots in the cause ignorance.
Jesus didn't manage to have sex with anybody, as far as I am aware, so god knows how he managed to pass his genes on (kinda geeky, I feel). And he barely made it to thirty right? I might even make it that far one day, and you don't see ME claiming to be the son of god. Survivor, indeed
While Jesus did not procreate - his "genes" are in billions of people. In accepting Jesus he becomes a part of us and we become a part of him. Each of us becomes a new person with new qualities that we inherit from him. A babe in the womb has the qualities of both its mother and its father. When we accept Jesus, God becomes our new and eternal father. And as new beings each of us takes up the qualities of Jesus. Jesus is loving and forgiving and we become like him. Jesus has already died and risen to eternal life and from union with Jesus we inherit everlasting life.
You make jesus sound kinda like something out of the Aliens trilogy. This chain of events you have cooked up sounds suspiciously what somebody has told you, rather than something you have thought up for yourself. Your argument is relying on the consistency of a rather long string of assumptions - I use and recommend Occam's razor to get those assumptions back to a manageable size.
In being born again we are incorporating into our being someone who has died and yet lived again. It is like incorporating the genetic ability to overcome death - accepting Jesus brings to us his immortality.
OK, immortality sounds like a testable claim I can work with. I figure that since Christ started granting external life 2,000 years ago, we should still be able to see some of his disciples around today? Oh, wait....
If one's bothers to actually study where Darwin got his idea's you will find that it was from his grandfather and the Victorian society around him. There is a a one to one correlation of themes between Christianity and Evolution. This is no accident; Darwin took from Christian thought and simply gave things a different name. For example redemption became survival and so on. The main differences are the Christianity is concerned with the redemption of the unfit and Evolution then focused on the survival of the fittest (that is until it became PC incorrect). The other main difference is that in Christianity God is in charge whereas in Evolution things happen by chance.
Er, Darwin got his ideas from traveling around the world and spending enormous amounts of time studying living forms wherever he traveled. Have you read the origin of the species before you start pretending you are an expert on Darwin? You have no idea what you are talking about.
Darwin wrote from his own thoughts and observations, acquired by great hardship in places that may have cost him his health later in life. I doubt you will ever work so hard to find the truth, quite frankly.
Evolution became popular not with the people but with government and business for selfish reasons. Each then could point and the unemployed and down and outs of society and say that "that just the way the world is" and have a better chance that people would accept it and not revolt. Evolution is not science, it does not even qualify to regarded as a theory it is only an idea the has become the religion of wealth and politics.
Riiiiiiggghhhttt... nothing to do with plausibility, abundant evidence and corroboration from other sciences?
Seriously, Christians have to get over the fact bad things happened in the name of science. Bad things happen in the name of religion too, and Christianity alone has had more than 2,000 years to rack up evil deeds. Evolution has had about 150. Guess who has had the larger negative impact on the world? Go read up on the inquisition before you start moaning about how bad social Darwinism is.
Evolution is a science. Religion is not science. Science is a body of the most reliable knowledge mankind has about the universe. Religion is inherited speculation depending on where in the world you happened to grow up. By contrast, most religion is as deep as a split drink as a source of knowledge about anything apart from moral issues.
Dumb, ignorant, uneducated, take your pick but the fact that people are actually entertaining such a subject is laughable.
Dumb, ignorant, uneducated, take your pick but the fact that people are actually entertaining such a subject is laughable.
Did you miss the fact that I said, if the story of Jesus be true? This would be the case. The issue being talked about is the evolution of man. If mankind is to move forward, the power to transform hmself and the world is within the power of his own thinking. I've mentioned nothing of pagan beliefs, in fact I agree with you with respect to the pagan beliefs of Christianity. One can question whether or not Jesus is a mythological figure, or believe that he did exist without being dumb or stupid.
If you are speaking of faith, I have no problem with that. As I have said, you can believe whatever you chose to along the like of a religion, but trying to pass of such a mythic figure as fact and the template for our evolution is nonsensical and irrational. You may not see this as dumb or stupid, but I would disagree.
I can’t argue with the issue of region causing problems, in fact I support the idea that mankind would be better off without adherence to any mythology or superstition. If you are seeking peace on Earth, religion is only one of the hurdles you face. If more people engaged in rational and skeptical thought, it would go a long way to achieving a more civilized and advanced society.
This is a difficult thing to understand and accept, and I might add that most mainstream Christian denominations would consider me a heretic for saying this, but it's my personal understanding of the situation.
1) I do not have absolute knowledge of what Jesus actually taught. nobody alive does. What I have are first hand accounts from eye witnesses who were his followers. Most of the "canon" accounts were actually written several years to a few decades after the fact. Objectively, I recognize that people do not have absolutely perfect memories, not even of incredible or exceptional events.
the texts themselves show different authors have slightly different accounts of the same event, just as any other eye-witness account, the authors may mix up the order of events in some cases, either because it occurred to their memory later, or they just mis-remember the order of events, or in some cases they aren't speaking chronologically at all, but just telling a story about the event as it comes to their memory.
2) I am told to believe in infallibility of scripture, especially the Apostles, even though the Bible itself shows many instances where the Apostles were definitely not infallible, and disagreed with one another on matters of doctrine, theology, salvation, etc, even after they were named as such by Jesus. Further, at least 4 of the New Testament authors show this directly in all four of the Gospels while Jesus was alive, and especially in the Book of Acts after the crucifixion. There is even the instance of God himself rebuking and correcting Peter in a dream, because of his wrong beliefs and behavior toward the "Gentiles," which is Greeks specifically, but all non-Jews in general.
3) The Bible itself records cases where other books of the Bible were lost for at least some time, and possibly re-written from memory of the priest. An example of this is the Torah itself, at least the book of Deuteronomy...
the bible references several books which are not in the canon, and no known, uncorupted copies of those documents exist, including the original book of enoch, and two books of someone named "Gad," which were apparently historical texts similar to Kings and "chronicles," which were also written later, after the deaths of the people they concern. The authors of these books used texts and oral traditions to piece together the events of their people's history in an attempt to preserve coherent history. This is no different than our own history books, which often hit the high notes and miss the subtleties and context of events. Wars and family feuds are often more complicated than just "you pissed me off" or something like that. The book of Gad was a historical text referenced a time or two in either kings or chronicles, I forget which, and the authors also mention other history books which we have no surviving copies, nor even know exactly what they were about.
4) Archeologists and scholars have found old translated versions of books from both the Old and New testaments in which the translators even in ancient times made mistakes and scratched out their own translation, or else someone proof reading it did, and replaced the words of the original translation. One of these translations of Psalm 23 bears little resemblance to the KJV of Psalm 23.
5) People are human beings. the original authors recorded their experiences as they remembered it. In many cases these things agree in the gist and important principles, even if some details are misunderstood or different. If you ask ten people to describe a stranger, or describe a mugging and what the victim and perpetrator looked like, they'll all give you different answers; experiments have been done with this.
6) People are not perfect. Realistically there must be mistakes in the bible, especially in translated versions of it.
7) when Jesus spoke we are to believe, according to the text, that he spoke as the voice of God incarnate. Unfortunately, we cannot prove objectively that the accounts of Jesus' words is perfectly accurate, so there has to be some form of reason within us. If you can believe the first chapter of John's Gospel, Jesus was supposed to be God as the "Logos" incarnate in the flesh, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory... as the only begotten of the Father."
So while Jesus' teaching is authoritative, the accounts of Jesus teaching cannot be taken as authoritative, because those are human accounts. What we can say is that it must bear on any person's reason and conscience according to their experiences and their search for God and the Truth.
But when those accounts agree with one another heavily, at least in concept and fundamentals, then it should be given more weight than that of a mere conjecture or fairy story.
8) my views on Samuel have changed tremendously over the years. If I was King Saul at the time of Samuel, when he claimed to be speaking for God and gave him the order to massacre that city, I would have to have him arrested and thrown in the brig, or even executed. I hate to say it.
No matter how evil the adults might have been, even if they did somehow all deserve capital punishment, I cannot imagine that "infants and sucklings" could in any way deserve such punishment. IN the past I attempted to explain or rationalize this away, but I cannot do so with a clear conscience any more. It is my conviction that if this event did happen, it is because Samuel or Saul or David, or whoever else was involved, was just an evil ***, or else there is something severely wrong with the translation and preservation of this document, and the same applies for Joshua and Moses. Who writes a 100 pages about themself and their people, always referring to themselves in the third person?! The Torah and Joshua was clearly re-written by someone else at a later time, probably Samuel, given their behavior is so similar.
===
See next post on other issues.
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Name calling and trying to “off” people really doesn’t help your cause.
I believe you have resorted to name calling or 'labeling' as you will. Please, if you have to critize me of something, don't be guilty of the same thing.
after reading alot of religous banter on a forum for physics i doubt that i am the one who sounds like a religous fanatic (this means you no1nose).
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Name calling and trying to “off” people really doesn’t help your cause. |
I believe you have resorted to name calling or 'labeling' as you will. Please, if you have to critize me of something, don't be guilty of the same thing.
after reading alot of religous banter on a forum for physics i doubt that i am the one who sounds like a religous fanatic (this means you no1nose).
To be honest you are doing yourselves more damage than my posts ever would.
To be honest, all the post that argue against you main thread have been extremely intelligent and well explained. If you have to resort to having a personal attack against me and others in order to support your arguement......
I can agree. Jesus showed us what the next step in man's evolution is. However, he was no mutant. He was one of us. In ALL ways like us. The difference with Jesus was his thinking. The transformation was accomplished by the power of his thoughts. The energy behind those thoughts was pure unadulterated Love. As a man thinks, so shall he be. One must be transformed by the renewing of the mind. What Jesus taught, when properly understood and utilized, begins the transformative process. If the story about him be true; He proved that the process works. Thus proving what the others of us are capable of doing. The first step along the way is how one sees and thinks of themselves in relation to all that is. This was a key element in his teaching. Thoughts carry with them electrical impulses. Man's thoughts have always been the key to his evolving, moving ever forward on the evolutionary scale. He has harnessed the power of the atom and stands poised to destroy himself. When all along had he been as concerned with putting the power, energy, and spirit of Love wholly behind his creative thoughts, he would already be experiencing the results of what many are waiting for Jesus to do for them. The work is their own. Jesus left the road map and the keys.
You wish to talk about dumb? All of you are talking about a mythical figure as if he was real. Debating Jesus as just a human in relation to the myth that he arose from is akin to arguing ID while ignoring the CS and religion it comes form.
If you have a faith or are a xian and believe in god, Jesus and all, that’s fine, but give up the claims that these are anything other than myths or that these people actually existed.
Jesus was nothing more than a rehash of pagan legends and myths that predate the xian religion.
Search for the myth of Jesus unless you wish to remain blissfully ignorant. Here is one site just to start.
Evidence that Jesus Never Existed
and another
Jesus Never Existed
Just to redress the fact that those who make claims must provide the proof of those claims….
If you have a faith or are a xian and believe in god, Jesus and all, that’s fine, but give up the claims that these are anything other than myths or that these people actually existed.
Jesus was nothing more than a rehash of pagan legends and myths that predate the xian religion.
Search for the myth of Jesus unless you wish to remain blissfully ignorant. Here is one site just to start.
Evidence that Jesus Never Existed
and another
Jesus Never Existed
Just to redress the fact that those who make claims must provide the proof of those claims….
QUOTE
BURDEN OF PROOF
Although what follows may fairly be interpreted to be a proof of the non-historicity of Jesus, it must be realized that the burden of proof does not rest upon the skeptic in this matter. As always is the case, the burden of proof weighs upon those who assert that some thing or some process exists. If someone claims that he never has to shave because every morning before he can get to the bathroom he is assaulted by a six-foot rabbit with extremely sharp teeth who trims his whiskers better than a razor--if someone makes such a claim, no skeptic need worry about constructing a disproof. Unless evidence for the claim is produced, the skeptic can treat the claim as false. This is nothing more than sane, every-day practice.
Although what follows may fairly be interpreted to be a proof of the non-historicity of Jesus, it must be realized that the burden of proof does not rest upon the skeptic in this matter. As always is the case, the burden of proof weighs upon those who assert that some thing or some process exists. If someone claims that he never has to shave because every morning before he can get to the bathroom he is assaulted by a six-foot rabbit with extremely sharp teeth who trims his whiskers better than a razor--if someone makes such a claim, no skeptic need worry about constructing a disproof. Unless evidence for the claim is produced, the skeptic can treat the claim as false. This is nothing more than sane, every-day practice.
QUOTE
Jesus was nothing more than a rehash of pagan legends and myths that predate the xian religion.
Thank GOD someone else has studied the xian myth objectively.
Jesus, like virtually all mythical godmen, is a historicized character that represents the sun. All events in the life of jesus, and all major characters in the bible are related to astrological events.
In order to attract followers, the early xian leaders combined as many different myths as they could. That way they could say "Look, our religion is friendly to the beliefs you already have!" Then, a few centuries later, they said "Wait, ours isn't a myth - our god really DID come to earth."
Subsequently, they murdered anyone who disagreed and burned any documents that said otherwise - that much is indisputable.
Calling people dumb isn't necessary. Did you miss the fact that I said, if the story of Jesus be true? This would be the case. The issue being talked about is the evolution of man. If mankind is to move forward, the power to transform hmself and the world is within the power of his own thinking. I've mentioned nothing of pagan beliefs, in fact I agree with you with respect to the pagan beliefs of Christianity. One can question whether or not Jesus is a mythological figure, or believe that he did exist without being dumb or stupid. We as humans still have the choice to continue down the destructive path that we are on, or change our minds and move forward into a brighter day and peace on earth, free from religous dogma and the wars that it continues to spawn.
QUOTE (no1nose+Aug 26 2005, 07:06 PM)
Evolution became popular not with the people but with government and business for selfish reasons. Each then could point and the unemployed and down and outs of society and say that "that just the way the world is" and have a better chance that people would accept it and not revolt. Evolution is not science, it does not even qualify to regarded as a theory it is only an idea the has become the religion of wealth and politics.
QUOTE (no1nose+)
According to evolutionary theory mankind should become like Jesus or perish. Surprisingly, it turns out Jesus is the evolutionary prototype for mankind's next evolutionary leap - exactly fulfilling the evolutionary requirements for such a prototype. A mutant at birth, and as such was the first member of a new species who proved his staying power by being resurrected. As such members of the old species are faced with the choice of transforming and becoming like Jesus or becoming extinct.
The theory of evolution as commonly understood does not anywhere state or imply mankind has to 'become like jesus or perish." Straw man argument, anyone?
I don't think your comments about Jesus being a mutant have anything to do with reality. To be fair though, he may have been a mutant, although the living dead are conventionally considered zombies!
QUOTE (no1nose+)
If evolution is true then who in history would be a prototype for human evolution? Who was different at birth and who is the greatest survivor? Jesus is the most logical choice, no one else in history has had as much influence - but evolutionists stop being evolutionists at this point and become blind zealots in the cause ignorance.
Jesus didn't manage to have sex with anybody, as far as I am aware, so god knows how he managed to pass his genes on (kinda geeky, I feel). And he barely made it to thirty right? I might even make it that far one day, and you don't see ME claiming to be the son of god. Survivor, indeed
QUOTE (no1nose+)
While Jesus did not procreate - his "genes" are in billions of people. In accepting Jesus he becomes a part of us and we become a part of him. Each of us becomes a new person with new qualities that we inherit from him. A babe in the womb has the qualities of both its mother and its father. When we accept Jesus, God becomes our new and eternal father. And as new beings each of us takes up the qualities of Jesus. Jesus is loving and forgiving and we become like him. Jesus has already died and risen to eternal life and from union with Jesus we inherit everlasting life.
You make jesus sound kinda like something out of the Aliens trilogy. This chain of events you have cooked up sounds suspiciously what somebody has told you, rather than something you have thought up for yourself. Your argument is relying on the consistency of a rather long string of assumptions - I use and recommend Occam's razor to get those assumptions back to a manageable size.
QUOTE (no1nose+)
In being born again we are incorporating into our being someone who has died and yet lived again. It is like incorporating the genetic ability to overcome death - accepting Jesus brings to us his immortality.
OK, immortality sounds like a testable claim I can work with. I figure that since Christ started granting external life 2,000 years ago, we should still be able to see some of his disciples around today? Oh, wait....
QUOTE (no1nose+)
If one's bothers to actually study where Darwin got his idea's you will find that it was from his grandfather and the Victorian society around him. There is a a one to one correlation of themes between Christianity and Evolution. This is no accident; Darwin took from Christian thought and simply gave things a different name. For example redemption became survival and so on. The main differences are the Christianity is concerned with the redemption of the unfit and Evolution then focused on the survival of the fittest (that is until it became PC incorrect). The other main difference is that in Christianity God is in charge whereas in Evolution things happen by chance.
Er, Darwin got his ideas from traveling around the world and spending enormous amounts of time studying living forms wherever he traveled. Have you read the origin of the species before you start pretending you are an expert on Darwin? You have no idea what you are talking about.
Darwin wrote from his own thoughts and observations, acquired by great hardship in places that may have cost him his health later in life. I doubt you will ever work so hard to find the truth, quite frankly.
QUOTE (no1nose+)
Evolution became popular not with the people but with government and business for selfish reasons. Each then could point and the unemployed and down and outs of society and say that "that just the way the world is" and have a better chance that people would accept it and not revolt. Evolution is not science, it does not even qualify to regarded as a theory it is only an idea the has become the religion of wealth and politics.
Riiiiiiggghhhttt... nothing to do with plausibility, abundant evidence and corroboration from other sciences?
Seriously, Christians have to get over the fact bad things happened in the name of science. Bad things happen in the name of religion too, and Christianity alone has had more than 2,000 years to rack up evil deeds. Evolution has had about 150. Guess who has had the larger negative impact on the world? Go read up on the inquisition before you start moaning about how bad social Darwinism is.
Evolution is a science. Religion is not science. Science is a body of the most reliable knowledge mankind has about the universe. Religion is inherited speculation depending on where in the world you happened to grow up. By contrast, most religion is as deep as a split drink as a source of knowledge about anything apart from moral issues.
QUOTE
Calling people dumb isn't necessary.
Dumb, ignorant, uneducated, take your pick but the fact that people are actually entertaining such a subject is laughable.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Calling people dumb isn't necessary. |
Dumb, ignorant, uneducated, take your pick but the fact that people are actually entertaining such a subject is laughable.
Did you miss the fact that I said, if the story of Jesus be true? This would be the case. The issue being talked about is the evolution of man. If mankind is to move forward, the power to transform hmself and the world is within the power of his own thinking. I've mentioned nothing of pagan beliefs, in fact I agree with you with respect to the pagan beliefs of Christianity. One can question whether or not Jesus is a mythological figure, or believe that he did exist without being dumb or stupid.
If you are speaking of faith, I have no problem with that. As I have said, you can believe whatever you chose to along the like of a religion, but trying to pass of such a mythic figure as fact and the template for our evolution is nonsensical and irrational. You may not see this as dumb or stupid, but I would disagree.
QUOTE
We as humans still have the choice to continue down the destructive path that we are on, or change our minds and move forward into a brighter day and peace on earth, free from religous dogma and the wars that it continues to spawn.
I can’t argue with the issue of region causing problems, in fact I support the idea that mankind would be better off without adherence to any mythology or superstition. If you are seeking peace on Earth, religion is only one of the hurdles you face. If more people engaged in rational and skeptical thought, it would go a long way to achieving a more civilized and advanced society.
Interesting, from a psychologically scientific perspective!
g.
g.
Another inane thread dug up from the distant past (2005)? WHY? We have too many religious kooks clogging this forum. Let's keep it rational and scientific. These nuts should gravitate to answersingenesis.org, where they will find a suitably duped audience steeped in indoctrination and brainwashing! (())
))
I don't understand why you think Jesus and evolution have any connection. To me, the message of Jesus transcend both evolution, and human awareness. To Justavian; I think it's reasonably well established Jesus was a historical figure, as was the Buddha. On the other hand what they did and how they did it is most certainly open to conjecture. Asimov: Evolution is hardly a flawed idea, we have to deal with it every day. Most specifically in medicine and anti-biotic resistance. To Binaural; the adaptation of evolution had nothing to do with human cultural development. If you don't believe me read Karl Mark's "Das Kappital". It attempts to high jack evolution and it's concepts and adapt it to human sociology and psychology. Human sociological change happens both in a totally different way, and at a vastly different pace then evolution. What worries me more then any thing is those who abandon the scientific method as a tried/true method of problem solving. Religion may prove a valuable tool in dealing with , or not, moral issues. It has nothing to do with logic. Nor is it supposed to.
To no1nose: Your belief structure may be based on being "born again", not mine. And yes I do have faith in Christs message. Your attempt to inject evangelical views in to a religion is fine for you. Not for me.
A more recent affermation of evolution can be found in the December 2007 issue of Scientific American on page 36. The title "Evolution in a Petri Dish; in the lab, seeing how infection triggers new species".
Jesus is the next step in evolution. With new research indicating the effect of thoughts on gene expression, new research in consciousness indicating the role of thoughts effecting physical reality, and ancient pre scientific traditions of Christianity as well as Patanjali, it seems that Jesus is the focus of the next step in evolution for mankind.
There are many threads of though that suggests mental processes can affect physical reality. In Eastern thought Patanjali, in his yoga sutras, suggests that by practicing sanyama on a thought can bring it into existence. Sanyama consists of focusing on a thought and experiencing the thought at deeper and deeper levels until the thought is transcended.
Ancient Christianity considers the “Name” of God as fully expressed in Jesus. Scriptures have repeated instruction to act in “the Name of Jesus”. It also focuses in the suggestion that Jesus is the mediation of man and God or in modern terms the accessing cue which is united with both God and man. Jesus is known as the “Logos” or idea of God. The following shows that Christian tradition suggested that people practice sanyama on the name “Jesus”. By gradually allowing this thought to unpack in our consciousness, we become an embodiment of the divine intelligence which has expressed in each stage of evolution. In ancient Christianity this was known as theosis or becoming the embodiment of God.
I think these facts indicate that the embodiment of the divine intelligence was meant to be an evolutionary event rather than a philosophy. Of course it’s only with modern scientific knowledge that this can be fully seen. Below are some of the relevant Christian teaching that back this up. Remember they are using a pre scientific way of describing the process.
Meditation on the Name “Jesus” has been practiced continuously in the Christian tradition. Eastern Orthodox Christians call this practice the “Jesus Prayer” and use it as either a phrase or just focus on the name “Jesus”. The name Jesus itself has been empowered by God to transmit the energy of God to mankind.
In the current times this tradition has been formalized in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, scriptures, and Eastern Orthodox teaching.
Fr. Thomas Hopko, Dean Emeritus, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Seminary.
“For ancient Christianity and for Eastern Orthodoxy through the ages, the very name “Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua” is the presence and the power of the Person of Christ himself. When you say that name, he is there. When you invoke that name, Jesus is present. His power is present. His might is present. His saving power is present. He is present! It’s a parousia. It’s a parousia before the presence of the Lord at the end of the ages, and at the end of the ages is when every knee in heaven and on earth will bow down before him to the glory of God the Father.”
Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church
CCC 2666 But the one name that contains everything is the one that the Son of God received in his incarnation: JESUS. The divine name may not be spoken by human lips, but by assuming our humanity The Word of God hands it over to us and we can invoke it: "Jesus," "YHWH saves”. The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray "Jesus" is to invoke him and to call him within us. His name is the only one that contains the presence it signifies. Jesus is the Risen One, and whoever invokes the name of Jesus is welcoming the Son of God who loved him and who gave himself up for him.
The author of the cloud of unknowing states it as follows:
Is what you are to do. Lift up your heart to the lord, with a gentle stirring of love desiring him for his own sake and not for his gifts. Center all your attention and desire on him and let this be the sole concern of your mind and heart. Do all in your power to forget everything else, keeping your thoughts and desires free from involvement with any of god’s creatures or their affairs whether in general or in particular.
Meditating on the name “Jesus” clearly fulfills this instruction. Matt 6:6 where Jesus describes how to pray, furthers this understanding. The only way given to man to pray to the Father is through Jesus who is the mediator between mankind and the Father. Jesus is the only image, name logos (word) of the Father.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
Rom 10:13;
for "whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved."
Acts 2:21;
'and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved.'
Acts 3:16
"And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
A monk of the Eastern Church writes the following in his book On the Invocation of the Name of Jesus:
Even in the act of invocation of the Name, its literal repetition ought not to be continuous. The Name pronounced maybe extended and prolonged in seconds or minutes of silent rest and attention. The repetition of the Name may be likened to the beating of wings by which a bird rises into the air. It must never be labored and forced, or hurried, or in the nature of a flapping. It must be gentle, easy and~ let us give to this word its deepest meaning-graceful. When the bird has reached the desired height it glides in its flight, and only beats its wing from time to time in order to stay in the air. So the soul, having attained to the thought of Jesus and filled herself with the memory of him, may discontinue the repetition of the Name and rest in Our Lord. The repetition will only be resumed when other thoughts threaten to crowd out the thought of Jesus. Then the invocation will start again in order to gain fresh impetus.
Following is a description of the method of meditating on the Name, Jesus. When meditating on the name, since it is auditory many people like to use the pronunciation of the vocative (addressing Jesus) case in Greek which was Iesou, and in Latin Iesu, both of which are pronounced “Yay soo” (yesu). This is the way Jesus was invoked for thousands of years. There was no “J” sound until fairly recently. Pronouncing it this way also avoids some of the associations with the Name and facililitates going beyond thoughts and concepts into contemplative prayer.
INSTRUCTION FOR JESUS PRAYER
Practice hesychastic contemplation twice per day for 20-30 minutes
1. Mentally use the personal Name of God "Yesu" as a prayer word, a reminder of your intention to allow the real presence and action of God within. Do this effortlessly without resisting anything.
2. Sit comfortably with your eyes closed. Settle briefly, for about 30 seconds, and silently and mentally to yourself, call on the Name “Yesu”
3. Don't control the mind. Just think the Name Yesu easily, effortlessly. And if at any time you seem to be forgetting the name “Yesu”, don't try to hold on. Let it go. Rest in the silence, if thoughts come, easily, effortlessly, come back to the Name “Yesu”.
4. At the end of the mediation period, stop thinking your prayer word and remain in silence with your eyes closed for 2-3 minutes. This is very important. Failure to rest and gradually come out of contemplation may result in headaches or other uneasiness.
There are many threads of though that suggests mental processes can affect physical reality. In Eastern thought Patanjali, in his yoga sutras, suggests that by practicing sanyama on a thought can bring it into existence. Sanyama consists of focusing on a thought and experiencing the thought at deeper and deeper levels until the thought is transcended.
Ancient Christianity considers the “Name” of God as fully expressed in Jesus. Scriptures have repeated instruction to act in “the Name of Jesus”. It also focuses in the suggestion that Jesus is the mediation of man and God or in modern terms the accessing cue which is united with both God and man. Jesus is known as the “Logos” or idea of God. The following shows that Christian tradition suggested that people practice sanyama on the name “Jesus”. By gradually allowing this thought to unpack in our consciousness, we become an embodiment of the divine intelligence which has expressed in each stage of evolution. In ancient Christianity this was known as theosis or becoming the embodiment of God.
I think these facts indicate that the embodiment of the divine intelligence was meant to be an evolutionary event rather than a philosophy. Of course it’s only with modern scientific knowledge that this can be fully seen. Below are some of the relevant Christian teaching that back this up. Remember they are using a pre scientific way of describing the process.
Meditation on the Name “Jesus” has been practiced continuously in the Christian tradition. Eastern Orthodox Christians call this practice the “Jesus Prayer” and use it as either a phrase or just focus on the name “Jesus”. The name Jesus itself has been empowered by God to transmit the energy of God to mankind.
In the current times this tradition has been formalized in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, scriptures, and Eastern Orthodox teaching.
Fr. Thomas Hopko, Dean Emeritus, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Seminary.
“For ancient Christianity and for Eastern Orthodoxy through the ages, the very name “Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua” is the presence and the power of the Person of Christ himself. When you say that name, he is there. When you invoke that name, Jesus is present. His power is present. His might is present. His saving power is present. He is present! It’s a parousia. It’s a parousia before the presence of the Lord at the end of the ages, and at the end of the ages is when every knee in heaven and on earth will bow down before him to the glory of God the Father.”
Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church
CCC 2666 But the one name that contains everything is the one that the Son of God received in his incarnation: JESUS. The divine name may not be spoken by human lips, but by assuming our humanity The Word of God hands it over to us and we can invoke it: "Jesus," "YHWH saves”. The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray "Jesus" is to invoke him and to call him within us. His name is the only one that contains the presence it signifies. Jesus is the Risen One, and whoever invokes the name of Jesus is welcoming the Son of God who loved him and who gave himself up for him.
The author of the cloud of unknowing states it as follows:
Is what you are to do. Lift up your heart to the lord, with a gentle stirring of love desiring him for his own sake and not for his gifts. Center all your attention and desire on him and let this be the sole concern of your mind and heart. Do all in your power to forget everything else, keeping your thoughts and desires free from involvement with any of god’s creatures or their affairs whether in general or in particular.
Meditating on the name “Jesus” clearly fulfills this instruction. Matt 6:6 where Jesus describes how to pray, furthers this understanding. The only way given to man to pray to the Father is through Jesus who is the mediator between mankind and the Father. Jesus is the only image, name logos (word) of the Father.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
Rom 10:13;
for "whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved."
Acts 2:21;
'and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved.'
Acts 3:16
"And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
A monk of the Eastern Church writes the following in his book On the Invocation of the Name of Jesus:
Even in the act of invocation of the Name, its literal repetition ought not to be continuous. The Name pronounced maybe extended and prolonged in seconds or minutes of silent rest and attention. The repetition of the Name may be likened to the beating of wings by which a bird rises into the air. It must never be labored and forced, or hurried, or in the nature of a flapping. It must be gentle, easy and~ let us give to this word its deepest meaning-graceful. When the bird has reached the desired height it glides in its flight, and only beats its wing from time to time in order to stay in the air. So the soul, having attained to the thought of Jesus and filled herself with the memory of him, may discontinue the repetition of the Name and rest in Our Lord. The repetition will only be resumed when other thoughts threaten to crowd out the thought of Jesus. Then the invocation will start again in order to gain fresh impetus.
Following is a description of the method of meditating on the Name, Jesus. When meditating on the name, since it is auditory many people like to use the pronunciation of the vocative (addressing Jesus) case in Greek which was Iesou, and in Latin Iesu, both of which are pronounced “Yay soo” (yesu). This is the way Jesus was invoked for thousands of years. There was no “J” sound until fairly recently. Pronouncing it this way also avoids some of the associations with the Name and facililitates going beyond thoughts and concepts into contemplative prayer.
INSTRUCTION FOR JESUS PRAYER
Practice hesychastic contemplation twice per day for 20-30 minutes
1. Mentally use the personal Name of God "Yesu" as a prayer word, a reminder of your intention to allow the real presence and action of God within. Do this effortlessly without resisting anything.
2. Sit comfortably with your eyes closed. Settle briefly, for about 30 seconds, and silently and mentally to yourself, call on the Name “Yesu”
3. Don't control the mind. Just think the Name Yesu easily, effortlessly. And if at any time you seem to be forgetting the name “Yesu”, don't try to hold on. Let it go. Rest in the silence, if thoughts come, easily, effortlessly, come back to the Name “Yesu”.
4. At the end of the mediation period, stop thinking your prayer word and remain in silence with your eyes closed for 2-3 minutes. This is very important. Failure to rest and gradually come out of contemplation may result in headaches or other uneasiness.
of course that prayer is superficial and relies on feeling. The bible says confess with your mouth and believe with your heart, done deal. If everyone relied on feelings like that they would be always flipping around not being sure what to believe.
What do you think about genetic memory ?
Jesus was a bad man . Why would he be the one to aspire to?
I hope my children don't go there. They would be victims like Jesus instead of leaders .
Now I like "Monkey God " my self. I want to be like Monkey God . When he got to heaven he changed things up and when they tried to reprimand him he beat em up.
Yeah no turning the other check there .Not a victim either.
You all do know the bible God is a Man-of-War don't you? Did anyone bother to read that book ?
I think small changes in genetic memory drive evolution . Step at a time in small increments. Lots of little mics adding up to big macs . You don't just grow a tail in a day
Jesus was a bad man . Why would he be the one to aspire to?
I hope my children don't go there. They would be victims like Jesus instead of leaders .
Now I like "Monkey God " my self. I want to be like Monkey God . When he got to heaven he changed things up and when they tried to reprimand him he beat em up.
Yeah no turning the other check there .Not a victim either.
You all do know the bible God is a Man-of-War don't you? Did anyone bother to read that book ?
I think small changes in genetic memory drive evolution . Step at a time in small increments. Lots of little mics adding up to big macs . You don't just grow a tail in a day
QUOTE (Mekigal+May 4 2012, 03:21 PM)
....
Jesus was a bad man . Why would he be the one to aspire to?
I hope my children don't go there. They would be victims like Jesus instead of leaders .....
Jesus knew he was a king, but his kingdom was not of this world. So a king is leader isn't he?
It's a strange story I know.
Jesus was a bad man . Why would he be the one to aspire to?
I hope my children don't go there. They would be victims like Jesus instead of leaders .....
Jesus knew he was a king, but his kingdom was not of this world. So a king is leader isn't he?
It's a strange story I know.
This is not meant to be an personal authoritative post, other than to just clarify something and use the only real references regarding this topic.
Believe what you want. That's not my responsibility. My responsibility is to just clarify something about who Jesus was and what he did, at least according to the Bible.
The bible calls Jesus the "Last Adam" and "the second man".
Traditionally, what that means is that "as a man," Jesus was supposed to be a re-created strain of human being, that is, what "Adam" should have been if evil never existed.
For references:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be (a) sin (offering*) for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Parenthesis mine.
"Sin offering" and "sin" are sometimes the same word in the ancient texts, and distinguishable only by context.
The deal is that God would save the original human strain, US, from the penalty of sin by accepting that penalty on himself, as a human in the form of Jesus of Nazareth.
The issue was not that Jesus, as a man, was an evolved human being, but rather the contrary. As a man, he was a "non-devolved" or non corrupted human being, while simultaneously being God incarnate.
In modern terms, God looked for, and found a loophole in his own commandments, and took the spiritual, moral penalty of sin(evil) upon himself, as a human being.
And this was not a new concept in the New Testament.
The entire Old Testament sacrificial system is based on the notion of an innocent redeemer dying in the place of a guilty human.
Isaiah 53 (by the way, this text pre-dates Jesus by close to 740 years).
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
It's almost as if Isaiah eye witnessed the chastisement and crucifixion 740 years ahead of time...
And so, what the Jews still don't understand is that it was always the plan of God, according to their own Bible, for the Messiah to die in the place of mankind, both individually and collectively.
One of the things that is shocking to me is that the Jewish priesthood supposedly had the entire Old Testament scriptures memorized as a condition for certain ranks in the priesthood, but none of them recognized the perfect parallels of what was happening as they condemned Jesus to death.
A lamb for a man (or woman)
A personal sacrifice, which pre-dated the ten commandments (see Cain and Abel, and Abraham in the Genesis stories)
a lamb for a family.
The passover lamb, which also pre-dated the commandments and law.
A lamb for a nation.
The morning and evening sacrifice at the Temple.
A lamb for the world
"behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the Sin of the world"- John Baptist's introduction of Jesus to the crowds...
people may even ask about aliens and such things, and how would that apply to them. Well, from a certain point of view, angels and demons are "aliens" and it probably applies to them too, even if it's not exactly specified.
I've found precedent that it applies to the whole universe within the Bible, but the exact reference slips my mind at the moment.
Believe what you want. That's not my responsibility. My responsibility is to just clarify something about who Jesus was and what he did, at least according to the Bible.
The bible calls Jesus the "Last Adam" and "the second man".
Traditionally, what that means is that "as a man," Jesus was supposed to be a re-created strain of human being, that is, what "Adam" should have been if evil never existed.
For references:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be (a) sin (offering*) for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Parenthesis mine.
"Sin offering" and "sin" are sometimes the same word in the ancient texts, and distinguishable only by context.
The deal is that God would save the original human strain, US, from the penalty of sin by accepting that penalty on himself, as a human in the form of Jesus of Nazareth.
The issue was not that Jesus, as a man, was an evolved human being, but rather the contrary. As a man, he was a "non-devolved" or non corrupted human being, while simultaneously being God incarnate.
In modern terms, God looked for, and found a loophole in his own commandments, and took the spiritual, moral penalty of sin(evil) upon himself, as a human being.
And this was not a new concept in the New Testament.
The entire Old Testament sacrificial system is based on the notion of an innocent redeemer dying in the place of a guilty human.
Isaiah 53 (by the way, this text pre-dates Jesus by close to 740 years).
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
It's almost as if Isaiah eye witnessed the chastisement and crucifixion 740 years ahead of time...
And so, what the Jews still don't understand is that it was always the plan of God, according to their own Bible, for the Messiah to die in the place of mankind, both individually and collectively.
One of the things that is shocking to me is that the Jewish priesthood supposedly had the entire Old Testament scriptures memorized as a condition for certain ranks in the priesthood, but none of them recognized the perfect parallels of what was happening as they condemned Jesus to death.
A lamb for a man (or woman)
A personal sacrifice, which pre-dated the ten commandments (see Cain and Abel, and Abraham in the Genesis stories)
a lamb for a family.
The passover lamb, which also pre-dated the commandments and law.
A lamb for a nation.
The morning and evening sacrifice at the Temple.
A lamb for the world
"behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the Sin of the world"- John Baptist's introduction of Jesus to the crowds...
people may even ask about aliens and such things, and how would that apply to them. Well, from a certain point of view, angels and demons are "aliens" and it probably applies to them too, even if it's not exactly specified.
I've found precedent that it applies to the whole universe within the Bible, but the exact reference slips my mind at the moment.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 25 2012, 10:21 PM)
Believe what you want. That's not my responsibility. My responsibility is to just clarify something about who Jesus was and what he did, at least according to the Bible.
Why is it so hard to say "at least according to my interpretation of the Bible?"
It should be clear to all Christians at this point that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible.
Why is it so hard to say "at least according to my interpretation of the Bible?"
It should be clear to all Christians at this point that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+May 25 2012, 09:36 PM)
Why is it so hard to say "at least according to my interpretation of the Bible?"
It should be clear to all Christians at this point that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible.
Unfortunately, our methods of understanding any text that is long enough to be meaningful is limited, particularly when all the original authors are dead and can't clarify their intent for difficult passages.
Most of what I wrote above is not opinion or interpretation, but cross referencing exact quotes of the Bible, or exact reference to Biblical events, and showing those parallels.
Isaiah 53 clearly indicates a righteous servant's death in the place of the transgressors, for the sake of the transgressors.
It's sort of like the constitution.
At the time the Constitution was written, hanging, decapitation, and firing squads were not considered "cruel and unusual punishment". What they were referring to is "prolonged torture," but that fact is lost on our civilization, even though the government and people clearly supported such death penalties for a very long time.
Fortunately, the Constitution isn't as old as the Bible, and our history for recent events is more complete than for much older documents. Anyone who wants to know about the real history of capital punishment can do the research themselves through modern libraries and government records.
Unfortunately, many people don't care about the original intent in either case, and want it to say what they want it to say.
Nobody is truly above that, I think, but I can hope to be better at finding the truth in the future.
It should be clear to all Christians at this point that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible.
Unfortunately, our methods of understanding any text that is long enough to be meaningful is limited, particularly when all the original authors are dead and can't clarify their intent for difficult passages.
Most of what I wrote above is not opinion or interpretation, but cross referencing exact quotes of the Bible, or exact reference to Biblical events, and showing those parallels.
Isaiah 53 clearly indicates a righteous servant's death in the place of the transgressors, for the sake of the transgressors.
It's sort of like the constitution.
At the time the Constitution was written, hanging, decapitation, and firing squads were not considered "cruel and unusual punishment". What they were referring to is "prolonged torture," but that fact is lost on our civilization, even though the government and people clearly supported such death penalties for a very long time.
Fortunately, the Constitution isn't as old as the Bible, and our history for recent events is more complete than for much older documents. Anyone who wants to know about the real history of capital punishment can do the research themselves through modern libraries and government records.
Unfortunately, many people don't care about the original intent in either case, and want it to say what they want it to say.
Nobody is truly above that, I think, but I can hope to be better at finding the truth in the future.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 25 2012, 11:02 PM)
Most of what I wrote above is not opinion or interpretation, but cross referencing exact quotes of the Bible, or exact reference to Biblical events, and showing those parallels.
Well said, though I would argue that it's the selection of quotes that demonstrates your interpretive bias. Do you pick out quotes that make god look forgiving and accepting, or punitive and intolerant? The difference in tone between the words of Jesus and those of his apostles (especially Paul) is stark to say the least.
Well said, though I would argue that it's the selection of quotes that demonstrates your interpretive bias. Do you pick out quotes that make god look forgiving and accepting, or punitive and intolerant? The difference in tone between the words of Jesus and those of his apostles (especially Paul) is stark to say the least.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+May 25 2012, 10:07 PM)
Well said, though I would argue that it's the selection of quotes that demonstrates your interpretive bias. Do you pick out quotes that make god look forgiving and accepting, or punitive and intolerant?
I picked out quotes that were relevant to the original post.
Most of us have love, acceptance, forgiveness, punishments, and intolerance all at the same time.
We do not tolerate murder, for example. We may even "forgive" a murderer, but we do not trust them on the streets any more after the fact, because we have only human knowledge and can never know if a person is truly sorry or reformed of their behavior.
We have various degrees of punishment for various degrees of evil in various circumstances.
Love is actually the basis for punishment.
We punish a child to try to teach them a lesson or truth.
We punish a criminal because of the evil they did to someone who is loved.
I may answer this part in the morning. Honestly I'm getting a bit tired.
I picked out quotes that were relevant to the original post.
Most of us have love, acceptance, forgiveness, punishments, and intolerance all at the same time.
We do not tolerate murder, for example. We may even "forgive" a murderer, but we do not trust them on the streets any more after the fact, because we have only human knowledge and can never know if a person is truly sorry or reformed of their behavior.
We have various degrees of punishment for various degrees of evil in various circumstances.
Love is actually the basis for punishment.
We punish a child to try to teach them a lesson or truth.
We punish a criminal because of the evil they did to someone who is loved.
QUOTE
The difference in tone between the words of Jesus and those of his apostles (especially Paul) is stark to say the least.
I may answer this part in the morning. Honestly I'm getting a bit tired.
QUOTE
The difference in tone between the words of Jesus and those of his apostles (especially Paul) is stark to say the least.
This is a difficult thing to understand and accept, and I might add that most mainstream Christian denominations would consider me a heretic for saying this, but it's my personal understanding of the situation.
1) I do not have absolute knowledge of what Jesus actually taught. nobody alive does. What I have are first hand accounts from eye witnesses who were his followers. Most of the "canon" accounts were actually written several years to a few decades after the fact. Objectively, I recognize that people do not have absolutely perfect memories, not even of incredible or exceptional events.
the texts themselves show different authors have slightly different accounts of the same event, just as any other eye-witness account, the authors may mix up the order of events in some cases, either because it occurred to their memory later, or they just mis-remember the order of events, or in some cases they aren't speaking chronologically at all, but just telling a story about the event as it comes to their memory.2) I am told to believe in infallibility of scripture, especially the Apostles, even though the Bible itself shows many instances where the Apostles were definitely not infallible, and disagreed with one another on matters of doctrine, theology, salvation, etc, even after they were named as such by Jesus. Further, at least 4 of the New Testament authors show this directly in all four of the Gospels while Jesus was alive, and especially in the Book of Acts after the crucifixion. There is even the instance of God himself rebuking and correcting Peter in a dream, because of his wrong beliefs and behavior toward the "Gentiles," which is Greeks specifically, but all non-Jews in general.
3) The Bible itself records cases where other books of the Bible were lost for at least some time, and possibly re-written from memory of the priest. An example of this is the Torah itself, at least the book of Deuteronomy...
the bible references several books which are not in the canon, and no known, uncorupted copies of those documents exist, including the original book of enoch, and two books of someone named "Gad," which were apparently historical texts similar to Kings and "chronicles," which were also written later, after the deaths of the people they concern. The authors of these books used texts and oral traditions to piece together the events of their people's history in an attempt to preserve coherent history. This is no different than our own history books, which often hit the high notes and miss the subtleties and context of events. Wars and family feuds are often more complicated than just "you pissed me off" or something like that. The book of Gad was a historical text referenced a time or two in either kings or chronicles, I forget which, and the authors also mention other history books which we have no surviving copies, nor even know exactly what they were about.4) Archeologists and scholars have found old translated versions of books from both the Old and New testaments in which the translators even in ancient times made mistakes and scratched out their own translation, or else someone proof reading it did, and replaced the words of the original translation. One of these translations of Psalm 23 bears little resemblance to the KJV of Psalm 23.
5) People are human beings. the original authors recorded their experiences as they remembered it. In many cases these things agree in the gist and important principles, even if some details are misunderstood or different. If you ask ten people to describe a stranger, or describe a mugging and what the victim and perpetrator looked like, they'll all give you different answers; experiments have been done with this.
6) People are not perfect. Realistically there must be mistakes in the bible, especially in translated versions of it.
7) when Jesus spoke we are to believe, according to the text, that he spoke as the voice of God incarnate. Unfortunately, we cannot prove objectively that the accounts of Jesus' words is perfectly accurate, so there has to be some form of reason within us. If you can believe the first chapter of John's Gospel, Jesus was supposed to be God as the "Logos" incarnate in the flesh, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory... as the only begotten of the Father."
So while Jesus' teaching is authoritative, the accounts of Jesus teaching cannot be taken as authoritative, because those are human accounts. What we can say is that it must bear on any person's reason and conscience according to their experiences and their search for God and the Truth. But when those accounts agree with one another heavily, at least in concept and fundamentals, then it should be given more weight than that of a mere conjecture or fairy story.
8) my views on Samuel have changed tremendously over the years. If I was King Saul at the time of Samuel, when he claimed to be speaking for God and gave him the order to massacre that city, I would have to have him arrested and thrown in the brig, or even executed. I hate to say it.
No matter how evil the adults might have been, even if they did somehow all deserve capital punishment, I cannot imagine that "infants and sucklings" could in any way deserve such punishment. IN the past I attempted to explain or rationalize this away, but I cannot do so with a clear conscience any more. It is my conviction that if this event did happen, it is because Samuel or Saul or David, or whoever else was involved, was just an evil ***, or else there is something severely wrong with the translation and preservation of this document, and the same applies for Joshua and Moses. Who writes a 100 pages about themself and their people, always referring to themselves in the third person?! The Torah and Joshua was clearly re-written by someone else at a later time, probably Samuel, given their behavior is so similar.
===
See next post on other issues.
As for Jesus' teaching, and some troublesome references to the Torah, here is my defense, my "apology" if you will.
Even all-knowing God could not come to earth as a man and just point blank tell people all truth and all knowledge, because the people would have no context to understand what he was talking about, and would of course believe he was a lunatic, which is actually what happened. Not that their response was right, because it wasn't.
Even if you or I went back in time with a time machine, and tried to teach people about advanced maths, electricity, medicines, automobiles, modern metallurgy and cooking wares, etc, they'd think we were crazy or witches or something like that, and try to kill us, and from their point of view, they'd even be right for doing so, because they have no context to understand or believe what is happening is "good".
If you went back in time and gave someone an automobile, they wouldn't understand, and even if you taught them how to drive, the roads were insufficient, and even then, they'd run out of gas after a few hundred miles, and it would be useless to them, and they would not have the infrastructure or knowledge to replicate it or to do much of anything good with it, except probably cut it up and use the advanced alloys to make a handful of tools...maybe...if the blacksmith was extremely good and creative...
So knowledge, even absolute truth, without the proper framework, is useless. that doesn't mean it isn't important or useful at a later time, but when people are ready for it.
This is why Jesus didn't teach much of anything about technology or physics, but instead used parables to try to teach spiritual and social truths about the nature of God and the nature of Man, because a parable requires a certain context, but also a certain amount of pursuit and growth to understand, when the person is ready to understand.
He also couldn't just walk up to the priests and point out a translation error or a transcription error, or tell them "this book is screwed up, so and so on such a day added this part or corrupted that part, etc," because again, they wouldn't believe him anyway.
So he taught people in the context of what they knew and believed, and yes he did make many corrections of people's understanding, but he did even quote old testament scriptures sometimes, but you also see Jesus opposing the strictly literal application of many OT texts as well, for example sparing the woman that they were going to stone by convicting everyone else of their own sins;
"Let he that is without sin cast the first stone at her."
That, friend, is why I am convinced many old testament texts and even old testament prophets were severely mis-understood, or even mis-guided. Old testament stories also record events where NEITHER side did the right thing;
A woman is gang raped in a city by apparent majority of the men. The whole nation declares war on the city, but ends up killing the women and children in the city and sparing the men; a worse crime and injustice than the original offense...
Does anyone think that's what God would want or command them to do? I do not.
Anyone can claim to hear from God or to do something in the name of God, or even claim to have been ordered to do such by God, or write what they claim happened, but it doesn't necessarily make it true, and even the written account is absolutely true, it doesn't necessarily make the events recorded regarding any side as being the correct, noble, good, or just thing to have done.
Even all-knowing God could not come to earth as a man and just point blank tell people all truth and all knowledge, because the people would have no context to understand what he was talking about, and would of course believe he was a lunatic, which is actually what happened. Not that their response was right, because it wasn't.
Even if you or I went back in time with a time machine, and tried to teach people about advanced maths, electricity, medicines, automobiles, modern metallurgy and cooking wares, etc, they'd think we were crazy or witches or something like that, and try to kill us, and from their point of view, they'd even be right for doing so, because they have no context to understand or believe what is happening is "good".
If you went back in time and gave someone an automobile, they wouldn't understand, and even if you taught them how to drive, the roads were insufficient, and even then, they'd run out of gas after a few hundred miles, and it would be useless to them, and they would not have the infrastructure or knowledge to replicate it or to do much of anything good with it, except probably cut it up and use the advanced alloys to make a handful of tools...maybe...if the blacksmith was extremely good and creative...
So knowledge, even absolute truth, without the proper framework, is useless. that doesn't mean it isn't important or useful at a later time, but when people are ready for it.
This is why Jesus didn't teach much of anything about technology or physics, but instead used parables to try to teach spiritual and social truths about the nature of God and the nature of Man, because a parable requires a certain context, but also a certain amount of pursuit and growth to understand, when the person is ready to understand.
He also couldn't just walk up to the priests and point out a translation error or a transcription error, or tell them "this book is screwed up, so and so on such a day added this part or corrupted that part, etc," because again, they wouldn't believe him anyway.
So he taught people in the context of what they knew and believed, and yes he did make many corrections of people's understanding, but he did even quote old testament scriptures sometimes, but you also see Jesus opposing the strictly literal application of many OT texts as well, for example sparing the woman that they were going to stone by convicting everyone else of their own sins;
"Let he that is without sin cast the first stone at her."
That, friend, is why I am convinced many old testament texts and even old testament prophets were severely mis-understood, or even mis-guided. Old testament stories also record events where NEITHER side did the right thing;
A woman is gang raped in a city by apparent majority of the men. The whole nation declares war on the city, but ends up killing the women and children in the city and sparing the men; a worse crime and injustice than the original offense...
Does anyone think that's what God would want or command them to do? I do not.
Anyone can claim to hear from God or to do something in the name of God, or even claim to have been ordered to do such by God, or write what they claim happened, but it doesn't necessarily make it true, and even the written account is absolutely true, it doesn't necessarily make the events recorded regarding any side as being the correct, noble, good, or just thing to have done.
Wow, I'm really blown away by what you wrote. I really hope that the Church as a whole can realize the truth in what you've said.
Curious, have your opinions on homosexuality changed as well?
Curious, have your opinions on homosexuality changed as well?
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+May 26 2012, 01:40 PM)
Wow, I'm really blown away by what you wrote. I really hope that the Church as a whole can realize the truth in what you've said.
Curious, have your opinions on homosexuality changed as well?
FBM:
I want to approach this from personal conscience and from naturalism.
What would happen if all people were homosexual? Well, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. If one believes that human beings are of any value whatsoever then I'd conclude that is a bad thing.
I recognize different people have different impulses and feelings about any number of issues, and personal, emotional, sexual feelings are the strongest of all.
But in a purely naturalistic view, sexual love is supposed to promote reproductive function. So on that basis, I still conclude that it is a wrong and a dysfunction, even from a naturalist point of view.
I'm not saying that to be mean or bigoted. It is a personal conviction. When I read your question I sat here a few minutes and have literally wept because I know that you and others are offended by my answer, but I cannot change that.
You are a very smart person, and I know that, but any person must calm themselves and truly look inside and allow yourself to find the truth objectively, without regard for initial impulses, both through nature and deep down convictions.
I am not the one to judge anybody, even if I think they've done wrong. What I can tell you on this is you will need to find God's peace for yourself through a deep moral meditation and prayer, and understand that God is love and can fix things that seem impossible.
I don't mean a one minute or one second "so what this is how I feel, forget you," sort of thing.
I mean sit down and close your eyes, forget what any preacher or book says, and let God speak to your conscience. I don't care if you don't believe in God, surrender anyway, calm your mind and emotions, and think about the truth objectively. I don't care if it upsets you or hurts you initially. Face that and tell yourself and God that you want the truth and the right thing, even if it's hard to face or deal with. Ultimately, when you take away "religion" that is all anyone has anyway.
As for myself, I never claimed to be some perfect Christian. I have some very screwed up mistakes in my past, and some very screwed up emotional and social problems. Do you think a 31 year old guy is still single by choice? Heck I've only ever dated one time, when I was 23 years old, and that was a disaster. I was so screwed up from being extremely shy, and also religious zealotry that I didn't function right at all.
Screwed up and disfunctional? definitely.
Straight? Definitely, I was interested in female anatomy from as long as I can remember, but I was also highly crushed and repressed from how my extremist parents raised me.
You want honesty? The truth is my problem regarding women is I want them all, or very nearly, and it's not just lust, it's a genuine honest love. It's not just desperation either, although honestly for a person in my condition that is an issue, but I consider all things objectively. It's everywhere i go. It's embarrassing and confusing, and most of the time I just flat out can't deal with it, and in person I am ridiculously shy, and I am unable to communicate with others about my personal goals or feelings most of the time, except maybe my cousin. I can't even talk to my own mother, sister, or brother about this stuff. You might not believe that from my long posts, but in person I hardly say two words to anyone about personal feelings, and I'm usually unable to get past just "hello" when I meet someone new, and I walk away kicking myself wondering how to have just small talk or communicate with others in a personal, meaningful way.
Now, as an adult, I face the reality that I am way behind everyone else in my age group in personal relationship experience. I have less relationships experience than most 14 or 15 year olds. Do you think that doesn't bother me every day?
I face that every day, and I rarely have any peace of victory over it, but I get up and deal with it or else withdraw from it, but it is there and has to be dealt with.
I have often wondered if I need a "bad girl," because, as they say, opposites attract. Maybe she makes the first move or something, but around here most women don't seem to be like that, or at least I'm not good at picking up on it anyway.
Every person faces stuff like this, because that is the reality we live in.
But back to the original point, every person faces their own conscience and God, and you must face nature's way, and from my observation I must say that it is not nature's way.
Now I'm not going to throw stones at anybody, and I can't go so far as to say God will either, but the whole point of Christianity is that while good deeds cannot save people, only God can through Christ, we should still strive to obtain the natural and spiritual enlightenment and purpose of God's definition of goodness, whether it's revealed through nature, or prayer or personal conviction.
Salvation and sanctification are two different things which are not directly related.
It can be very difficult to examine yourself and find your own faults and face them.
Curious, have your opinions on homosexuality changed as well?
FBM:
I want to approach this from personal conscience and from naturalism.
What would happen if all people were homosexual? Well, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. If one believes that human beings are of any value whatsoever then I'd conclude that is a bad thing.
I recognize different people have different impulses and feelings about any number of issues, and personal, emotional, sexual feelings are the strongest of all.
But in a purely naturalistic view, sexual love is supposed to promote reproductive function. So on that basis, I still conclude that it is a wrong and a dysfunction, even from a naturalist point of view.
I'm not saying that to be mean or bigoted. It is a personal conviction. When I read your question I sat here a few minutes and have literally wept because I know that you and others are offended by my answer, but I cannot change that.
You are a very smart person, and I know that, but any person must calm themselves and truly look inside and allow yourself to find the truth objectively, without regard for initial impulses, both through nature and deep down convictions.
I am not the one to judge anybody, even if I think they've done wrong. What I can tell you on this is you will need to find God's peace for yourself through a deep moral meditation and prayer, and understand that God is love and can fix things that seem impossible.
I don't mean a one minute or one second "so what this is how I feel, forget you," sort of thing.
I mean sit down and close your eyes, forget what any preacher or book says, and let God speak to your conscience. I don't care if you don't believe in God, surrender anyway, calm your mind and emotions, and think about the truth objectively. I don't care if it upsets you or hurts you initially. Face that and tell yourself and God that you want the truth and the right thing, even if it's hard to face or deal with. Ultimately, when you take away "religion" that is all anyone has anyway.
As for myself, I never claimed to be some perfect Christian. I have some very screwed up mistakes in my past, and some very screwed up emotional and social problems. Do you think a 31 year old guy is still single by choice? Heck I've only ever dated one time, when I was 23 years old, and that was a disaster. I was so screwed up from being extremely shy, and also religious zealotry that I didn't function right at all.
Screwed up and disfunctional? definitely.
Straight? Definitely, I was interested in female anatomy from as long as I can remember, but I was also highly crushed and repressed from how my extremist parents raised me.
You want honesty? The truth is my problem regarding women is I want them all, or very nearly, and it's not just lust, it's a genuine honest love. It's not just desperation either, although honestly for a person in my condition that is an issue, but I consider all things objectively. It's everywhere i go. It's embarrassing and confusing, and most of the time I just flat out can't deal with it, and in person I am ridiculously shy, and I am unable to communicate with others about my personal goals or feelings most of the time, except maybe my cousin. I can't even talk to my own mother, sister, or brother about this stuff. You might not believe that from my long posts, but in person I hardly say two words to anyone about personal feelings, and I'm usually unable to get past just "hello" when I meet someone new, and I walk away kicking myself wondering how to have just small talk or communicate with others in a personal, meaningful way.
Now, as an adult, I face the reality that I am way behind everyone else in my age group in personal relationship experience. I have less relationships experience than most 14 or 15 year olds. Do you think that doesn't bother me every day?
I face that every day, and I rarely have any peace of victory over it, but I get up and deal with it or else withdraw from it, but it is there and has to be dealt with.
I have often wondered if I need a "bad girl," because, as they say, opposites attract. Maybe she makes the first move or something, but around here most women don't seem to be like that, or at least I'm not good at picking up on it anyway.
Every person faces stuff like this, because that is the reality we live in.
But back to the original point, every person faces their own conscience and God, and you must face nature's way, and from my observation I must say that it is not nature's way.
Now I'm not going to throw stones at anybody, and I can't go so far as to say God will either, but the whole point of Christianity is that while good deeds cannot save people, only God can through Christ, we should still strive to obtain the natural and spiritual enlightenment and purpose of God's definition of goodness, whether it's revealed through nature, or prayer or personal conviction.
Salvation and sanctification are two different things which are not directly related.
It can be very difficult to examine yourself and find your own faults and face them.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 26 2012, 04:54 PM)
What would happen if all people were homosexual? Well, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. If one believes that human beings are of any value whatsoever then I'd conclude that is a bad thing.
What if all people were female? Obviously, they aren't, and neither are they homosexual. In nature, homosexuality tends to be a side-effect of overpopulation. Even seagulls have been observed to exhibit homosexual tendencies. I think of it as nature's population control.
I did this for many years, and I did find comfort in it.
I did this for many years, and I did find comfort in it.
As for myself, I never claimed to be some perfect Christian. I have some very screwed up mistakes in my past, and some very screwed up emotional and social problems. Do you think a 31 year old guy is still single by choice? Heck I've only ever dated one time, when I was 23 years old, and that was a disaster. I was so screwed up from being extremely shy, and also religious zealotry that I didn't function right at all.
That's where I used to be. Then I realized that the zealotry of my church didn't make me feel good about myself or others. I discovered that sexual orientation is more innate than I was led to believe, and abortion wasn't the evil conspiracy to kill babies that people insinuated. The problem was, I was alone. And alone, I was repelled by the "zealots" but accepted by the atheists and agnostics.
My advice to you: find like-minded people. Loneliness breeds extremism, in both directions (faith and faithless).
I had this problem too, but again it's a challenge to find like-minded people. Once you find people who are actually interested in what you have to say, your life will change. Find a book club, a meetup, somewhere that you can let your guard down and talk to people.
I had this problem too, but again it's a challenge to find like-minded people. Once you find people who are actually interested in what you have to say, your life will change. Find a book club, a meetup, somewhere that you can let your guard down and talk to people.
I have often wondered if I need a "bad girl," because, as they say, opposites attract. Maybe she makes the first move or something, but around here most women don't seem to be like that, or at least I'm not good at picking up on it anyway.
I don't claim to be an expert. I thought I was in a similar situation, but I found the one person who went after me and was actually compatible with me. It does happen, you just have to cast a wider net.
Christians are at their greatest when they focus solely on Jesus. All the other stuff is (arguably) unnecessary. The backstory and later developments cloud and sometimes obscure the true message: Jesus loves everyone, and he doesn't want them to suffer.
It's too late for me. You can't convince the kid who saw you stuffing his stocking that Santa is real again.
Even all-knowing God could not come to earth as a man and just point blank tell people all truth and all knowledge, because the people would have no context to understand what he was talking about, and would of course believe he was a lunatic, which is actually what happened. Not that their response was right, because it wasn't.
An omniscient, omnipotent god can do whatever it damn well pleases. If it wanted to appear as a man, it could. If it needed to be invulnerable to all threats it would be. If it had to educate the ignorant, that too would happen. Stop engaging in these unreasonable mental gymnastics to justify your hold on this virtual security blanket. I’ve seen flashes of reason and objectivity in some of your other arguments, so please strive for that frame of mind and don’t embarrass yourself further with this continued illogic.
If all people were homosexual would they cease engaging in agriculture and acquiring other resources deemed necessary to support their civilization? Not likely. People too are a necessary resource for any civilization, even for one who’s members prefer to bugger non-reproductively. But make no mistake about it, to maintain that precious human resource, gay sperm would find lesbian ovum. It’s not like gay men can’t have intercourse with women, they just prefer their own kind. Most people may not particularly enjoy butchering an animal to eat it, but if all butchers became vegan, the carnivorous would sharpen their knives.
If all people were homosexual would they cease engaging in agriculture and acquiring other resources deemed necessary to support their civilization? Not likely. People too are a necessary resource for any civilization, even for one who’s members prefer to bugger non-reproductively. But make no mistake about it, to maintain that precious human resource, gay sperm would find lesbian ovum. It’s not like gay men can’t have intercourse with women, they just prefer their own kind. Most people may not particularly enjoy butchering an animal to eat it, but if all butchers became vegan, the carnivorous would sharpen their knives.
You want honesty? The truth is my problem regarding women is I want them all, or very nearly, and it's not just lust, it's a genuine honest love.
It sure sounds like lust. Lust isn’t exclusively about sex. You seem to have an idealized view of women, and you claim it’s universal. Do you feel the same about your mother and sister as you would about an attractive stranger? Hopefully not. To dispel this idealism you need to take FBM’s advice and socialize with groups and individuals with like interests. Also take Mekigal’s advice and get laid. Don’t save it for marriage, find some disease free, intellectually compatible women, and get it out of your system.
What if all people were female? Obviously, they aren't, and neither are they homosexual. In nature, homosexuality tends to be a side-effect of overpopulation. Even seagulls have been observed to exhibit homosexual tendencies. I think of it as nature's population control.
QUOTE
I mean sit down and close your eyes, forget what any preacher or book says, and let God speak to your conscience. I don't care if you don't believe in God, surrender anyway, calm your mind and emotions, and think about the truth objectively. I don't care if it upsets you or hurts you initially. Face that and tell yourself and God that you want the truth and the right thing, even if it's hard to face or deal with. Ultimately, when you take away "religion" that is all anyone has anyway.
I did this for many years, and I did find comfort in it.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I mean sit down and close your eyes, forget what any preacher or book says, and let God speak to your conscience. I don't care if you don't believe in God, surrender anyway, calm your mind and emotions, and think about the truth objectively. I don't care if it upsets you or hurts you initially. Face that and tell yourself and God that you want the truth and the right thing, even if it's hard to face or deal with. Ultimately, when you take away "religion" that is all anyone has anyway. |
I did this for many years, and I did find comfort in it.
As for myself, I never claimed to be some perfect Christian. I have some very screwed up mistakes in my past, and some very screwed up emotional and social problems. Do you think a 31 year old guy is still single by choice? Heck I've only ever dated one time, when I was 23 years old, and that was a disaster. I was so screwed up from being extremely shy, and also religious zealotry that I didn't function right at all.
That's where I used to be. Then I realized that the zealotry of my church didn't make me feel good about myself or others. I discovered that sexual orientation is more innate than I was led to believe, and abortion wasn't the evil conspiracy to kill babies that people insinuated. The problem was, I was alone. And alone, I was repelled by the "zealots" but accepted by the atheists and agnostics.
My advice to you: find like-minded people. Loneliness breeds extremism, in both directions (faith and faithless).
QUOTE
You want honesty? The truth is my problem regarding women is I want them all, or very nearly, and it's not just lust, it's a genuine honest love. It's not just desperation either, although honestly for a person in my condition that is an issue, but I consider all things objectively. It's everywhere i go. It's embarrassing and confusing, and most of the time I just flat out can't deal with it, and in person I am ridiculously shy, and I am unable to communicate with others about my personal goals or feelings most of the time, except maybe my cousin. I can't even talk to my own mother, sister, or brother about this stuff. You might not believe that from my long posts, but in person I hardly say two words to anyone about personal feelings, and I'm usually unable to get past just "hello" when I meet someone new, and I walk away kicking myself wondering how to have just small talk or communicate with others in a personal, meaningful way.
I had this problem too, but again it's a challenge to find like-minded people. Once you find people who are actually interested in what you have to say, your life will change. Find a book club, a meetup, somewhere that you can let your guard down and talk to people.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You want honesty? The truth is my problem regarding women is I want them all, or very nearly, and it's not just lust, it's a genuine honest love. It's not just desperation either, although honestly for a person in my condition that is an issue, but I consider all things objectively. It's everywhere i go. It's embarrassing and confusing, and most of the time I just flat out can't deal with it, and in person I am ridiculously shy, and I am unable to communicate with others about my personal goals or feelings most of the time, except maybe my cousin. I can't even talk to my own mother, sister, or brother about this stuff. You might not believe that from my long posts, but in person I hardly say two words to anyone about personal feelings, and I'm usually unable to get past just "hello" when I meet someone new, and I walk away kicking myself wondering how to have just small talk or communicate with others in a personal, meaningful way. |
I had this problem too, but again it's a challenge to find like-minded people. Once you find people who are actually interested in what you have to say, your life will change. Find a book club, a meetup, somewhere that you can let your guard down and talk to people.
I have often wondered if I need a "bad girl," because, as they say, opposites attract. Maybe she makes the first move or something, but around here most women don't seem to be like that, or at least I'm not good at picking up on it anyway.
I don't claim to be an expert. I thought I was in a similar situation, but I found the one person who went after me and was actually compatible with me. It does happen, you just have to cast a wider net.
QUOTE
Now I'm not going to throw stones at anybody, and I can't go so far as to say God will either, but the whole point of Christianity is that while good deeds cannot save people, only God can through Christ, we should still strive to obtain the natural and spiritual enlightenment and purpose of God's definition of goodness, whether it's revealed through nature, or prayer or personal conviction.
Salvation and sanctification are two different things which are not directly related.
Salvation and sanctification are two different things which are not directly related.
Christians are at their greatest when they focus solely on Jesus. All the other stuff is (arguably) unnecessary. The backstory and later developments cloud and sometimes obscure the true message: Jesus loves everyone, and he doesn't want them to suffer.
It's too late for me. You can't convince the kid who saw you stuffing his stocking that Santa is real again.
Yes but it doesn't stop that kid wanting Christmas presents does it?
QUOTE (Robittybob1+May 4 2012, 06:59 PM)
Jesus knew he was a king, but his kingdom was not of this world. So a king is leader isn't he?
It's a strange story I know.
He was no king . He was an idiot . Only idiots kill them selves . He cheated the world . He also knew of the hidden language and he didn't tell anybody about it . he hoarded to him self just like Brodie and the other people that figured out Memetics. Jesus learned to control the word . Big deal ! What did he do with it ? He sure didn't teach it to anyone . He hoarded the glory to him self and he steals your glory by enslaving you beneath him . He subordinates you just like preachers do . They put you below them . Jesus did the same thing as a banker does a poor person. Or a jailer does a prisoner . It even says when you committed to Jesus you become a prisoner of Jesus . I certainly don't call him the Christ or the Prince of Peace . For one thing he has wrong name for that.
Who wants to be a slave of Jesus's ? Jesus was bad . I don't know why you all can't see that ? He would not make you his slave if he was the all powerful good guy . He would not steal your glory either and he would not of withheld information from you either.
You all need to treat all people the same way you think of Jesus if you are going to buy into his message . Yeah you all should see Rob in the same light you see Jesus for the man him self said " What you do to the least of them you do to me . That includes Rob too. You don't give Rob the same respect you give Jesus . I give Rob the same respect I give Jesus . Rob is Jesus to Me . I love him . In fact I love him more than I love Jesus . Jesus is dead and Rob is Alive . Jesus don't have any more part in life . Rob does.
I am talking to you Rob . You are better than Jesus my Man . You are a better Man than Jesus . You just don't know it because of the spell the Vampire Has on you .
You can do more than Jesus . You can take peoples sins away way better than Jesus . Hell Jesus makes everybody a sinner . He is evil .
O.K. pussies . If you want sex ask 10 girls if they want to go do it and odds are one will . Maybe even 2 . You got to face your fears in life . The more you face em the easier it gets to face them . Jesus keeps you a victim . Victims are not that good at getting sex . Your all like people that afraid to leave there house . Baby steps . Start with looking in the Mirror and telling your self " I am a Good person " I deserve to be Happy
It's a strange story I know.
He was no king . He was an idiot . Only idiots kill them selves . He cheated the world . He also knew of the hidden language and he didn't tell anybody about it . he hoarded to him self just like Brodie and the other people that figured out Memetics. Jesus learned to control the word . Big deal ! What did he do with it ? He sure didn't teach it to anyone . He hoarded the glory to him self and he steals your glory by enslaving you beneath him . He subordinates you just like preachers do . They put you below them . Jesus did the same thing as a banker does a poor person. Or a jailer does a prisoner . It even says when you committed to Jesus you become a prisoner of Jesus . I certainly don't call him the Christ or the Prince of Peace . For one thing he has wrong name for that.
Who wants to be a slave of Jesus's ? Jesus was bad . I don't know why you all can't see that ? He would not make you his slave if he was the all powerful good guy . He would not steal your glory either and he would not of withheld information from you either.
You all need to treat all people the same way you think of Jesus if you are going to buy into his message . Yeah you all should see Rob in the same light you see Jesus for the man him self said " What you do to the least of them you do to me . That includes Rob too. You don't give Rob the same respect you give Jesus . I give Rob the same respect I give Jesus . Rob is Jesus to Me . I love him . In fact I love him more than I love Jesus . Jesus is dead and Rob is Alive . Jesus don't have any more part in life . Rob does.
I am talking to you Rob . You are better than Jesus my Man . You are a better Man than Jesus . You just don't know it because of the spell the Vampire Has on you .
You can do more than Jesus . You can take peoples sins away way better than Jesus . Hell Jesus makes everybody a sinner . He is evil .
O.K. pussies . If you want sex ask 10 girls if they want to go do it and odds are one will . Maybe even 2 . You got to face your fears in life . The more you face em the easier it gets to face them . Jesus keeps you a victim . Victims are not that good at getting sex . Your all like people that afraid to leave there house . Baby steps . Start with looking in the Mirror and telling your self " I am a Good person " I deserve to be Happy
QUOTE (Mekigal+May 26 2012, 08:23 PM)
O.K. pussies . If you want sex ask 10 girls if they want to go do it and odds are one will . Maybe even 2 . You got to face your fears in life . The more you face em the easier it gets to face them . Jesus keeps you a victim . Victims are not that good at getting sex . Your all like people that afraid to leave there house . Baby steps . Start with looking in the Mirror and telling your self " I am a Good person " I deserve to be Happy
Man you missed the point.
It's not just about sex. Ok, every guy who's breathing wants that.
I want complete love in a complete relationship, intellectual, social, sexual, whatever. It's not "just about sex". I couldn't even take myself seriously if that's all I wanted in a relationship.
But I want a real friend who is at least intellectually equal, hell even superior. I want to love a woman with everything that I am, and enhance her life in whatever way that I can, because that's who I am inside.
For God's sake, I'm tired of having to either keep silent or pretend to be something I'm not, or something more or less to fit in with other people, or to keep from accidentally offending them because of my "abilities" or my real personality.
Do you really find love by just asking 10 random women for sex and seeing if any of them say yes? I mean seriously? Maybe some people do, I guess I wouldn't know, stranger stuff has happened before, but that doesn't make it the norm, but I think depending on where you are, you might get slapped in the face more often than not.
A lot of people tend to marry their high school or college sweetheart, or someone they met and built up relationship with over a long time through work or some social event, but I never did those things, and I'm terrible in crowds.
Dating sites suck most of the time, because it's like if you went to the candy store and you want some of everything. Too many options screws up your head, which is probably a normal male response, but it's reality for me anyway. Then half the ads are scams anyway. then if you finally do get a contact with somebody, messaging is awkward, because I'm a thoughtful person and take too long to reply and stuff, and that just doesn't work out either.
Man you missed the point.
It's not just about sex. Ok, every guy who's breathing wants that.
I want complete love in a complete relationship, intellectual, social, sexual, whatever. It's not "just about sex". I couldn't even take myself seriously if that's all I wanted in a relationship.
But I want a real friend who is at least intellectually equal, hell even superior. I want to love a woman with everything that I am, and enhance her life in whatever way that I can, because that's who I am inside.
For God's sake, I'm tired of having to either keep silent or pretend to be something I'm not, or something more or less to fit in with other people, or to keep from accidentally offending them because of my "abilities" or my real personality.
Do you really find love by just asking 10 random women for sex and seeing if any of them say yes? I mean seriously? Maybe some people do, I guess I wouldn't know, stranger stuff has happened before, but that doesn't make it the norm, but I think depending on where you are, you might get slapped in the face more often than not.
A lot of people tend to marry their high school or college sweetheart, or someone they met and built up relationship with over a long time through work or some social event, but I never did those things, and I'm terrible in crowds.
Dating sites suck most of the time, because it's like if you went to the candy store and you want some of everything. Too many options screws up your head, which is probably a normal male response, but it's reality for me anyway. Then half the ads are scams anyway. then if you finally do get a contact with somebody, messaging is awkward, because I'm a thoughtful person and take too long to reply and stuff, and that just doesn't work out either.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 26 2012, 05:43 PM)
Even all-knowing God could not come to earth as a man and just point blank tell people all truth and all knowledge, because the people would have no context to understand what he was talking about, and would of course believe he was a lunatic, which is actually what happened. Not that their response was right, because it wasn't.
An omniscient, omnipotent god can do whatever it damn well pleases. If it wanted to appear as a man, it could. If it needed to be invulnerable to all threats it would be. If it had to educate the ignorant, that too would happen. Stop engaging in these unreasonable mental gymnastics to justify your hold on this virtual security blanket. I’ve seen flashes of reason and objectivity in some of your other arguments, so please strive for that frame of mind and don’t embarrass yourself further with this continued illogic.
QUOTE
I want to approach this from personal conscience and from naturalism.
What would happen if all people were homosexual? Well, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. If one believes that human beings are of any value whatsoever then I'd conclude that is a bad thing.
I recognize different people have different impulses and feelings about any number of issues, and personal, emotional, sexual feelings are the strongest of all.
But in a purely naturalistic view, sexual love is supposed to promote reproductive function. So on that basis, I still conclude that it is a wrong and a dysfunction, even from a naturalist point of view.
What would happen if all people were homosexual? Well, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. If one believes that human beings are of any value whatsoever then I'd conclude that is a bad thing.
I recognize different people have different impulses and feelings about any number of issues, and personal, emotional, sexual feelings are the strongest of all.
But in a purely naturalistic view, sexual love is supposed to promote reproductive function. So on that basis, I still conclude that it is a wrong and a dysfunction, even from a naturalist point of view.
If all people were homosexual would they cease engaging in agriculture and acquiring other resources deemed necessary to support their civilization? Not likely. People too are a necessary resource for any civilization, even for one who’s members prefer to bugger non-reproductively. But make no mistake about it, to maintain that precious human resource, gay sperm would find lesbian ovum. It’s not like gay men can’t have intercourse with women, they just prefer their own kind. Most people may not particularly enjoy butchering an animal to eat it, but if all butchers became vegan, the carnivorous would sharpen their knives.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I want to approach this from personal conscience and from naturalism. What would happen if all people were homosexual? Well, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. If one believes that human beings are of any value whatsoever then I'd conclude that is a bad thing. I recognize different people have different impulses and feelings about any number of issues, and personal, emotional, sexual feelings are the strongest of all. But in a purely naturalistic view, sexual love is supposed to promote reproductive function. So on that basis, I still conclude that it is a wrong and a dysfunction, even from a naturalist point of view. |
If all people were homosexual would they cease engaging in agriculture and acquiring other resources deemed necessary to support their civilization? Not likely. People too are a necessary resource for any civilization, even for one who’s members prefer to bugger non-reproductively. But make no mistake about it, to maintain that precious human resource, gay sperm would find lesbian ovum. It’s not like gay men can’t have intercourse with women, they just prefer their own kind. Most people may not particularly enjoy butchering an animal to eat it, but if all butchers became vegan, the carnivorous would sharpen their knives.
You want honesty? The truth is my problem regarding women is I want them all, or very nearly, and it's not just lust, it's a genuine honest love.
It sure sounds like lust. Lust isn’t exclusively about sex. You seem to have an idealized view of women, and you claim it’s universal. Do you feel the same about your mother and sister as you would about an attractive stranger? Hopefully not. To dispel this idealism you need to take FBM’s advice and socialize with groups and individuals with like interests. Also take Mekigal’s advice and get laid. Don’t save it for marriage, find some disease free, intellectually compatible women, and get it out of your system.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+)
For God's sake, I'm tired of having to either keep silent or pretend to be something I'm not, or something more or less to fit in with other people, or to keep from accidentally offending them because of my "abilities" or my real personality.
Wow! That was ME, "to a T", for most of my life. As I've shared before on this forum, I was totally bound by the fear of man or the fear of what others might think of me, without evening recognizing it for what it was, for many, many years. My personal deliverance came as I was pondering asking out a young woman in my church at that time, but was simply too afraid to because of what she or others might think. I was sitting on the front porch of the house where I lived at that time, meditating on such things before the Lord, and this poem just came to me instantly:
"A mighty tree before me stood,
Its sturdy body, solid wood.
Its many branches moved with ease,
Commanded by the gentle breeze.
A streetlight in the distance shone;
It's not good man should be alone.
And yet, in solitude I sat,
And questioned where my life was at.
I've given all unto my Lord,
His sacrifice, my life restored.
He is my God, my Friend, my King,
His presence makes my spirit sing.
He's with me even as I write,
Perched on a step this Autumn night.
I asked Him if it'd be okay,
To share the words my heart would say?
He answered, "YES", my heart awoke,
And from its depths, my spirit spoke.
The fear that once held its jaws bound,
Was FINALLY not to be found.
You see, this night, I thought of you..."
The key phrase there is "The fear that once held its jaws bound, was FINALLY not to be found..." Look, if you're not going to be who you actually are around others, then you're just a puppet who allows other people to pull your strings. You'll experience great frustration this way, even as I did, and even as is seen in some of your recent comments. I'm not a big fan of contemporary "words of knowledge", seeing how there's so much of "another spirit" in today's churches, but just prior to the incident that I just described, I was in a church service where a young woman whom I perceived to be genuinely godly gave "a word of knowledge" that basically said something like this:
"There's an individual here tonight who is like unto a bottle of strong-smelling perfume. You're afraid to take the lid off and be yourself, for fear that others might be overpowered or offended by the strength of your aroma."
Oh, I know that some here will see nothing but the opportunity to say something like, "Yeah, newguy, you do emit a strong stench", but I knew that that "word" was for me. Anyhow, just be yourself.
Wow! That was ME, "to a T", for most of my life. As I've shared before on this forum, I was totally bound by the fear of man or the fear of what others might think of me, without evening recognizing it for what it was, for many, many years. My personal deliverance came as I was pondering asking out a young woman in my church at that time, but was simply too afraid to because of what she or others might think. I was sitting on the front porch of the house where I lived at that time, meditating on such things before the Lord, and this poem just came to me instantly:
"A mighty tree before me stood,
Its sturdy body, solid wood.
Its many branches moved with ease,
Commanded by the gentle breeze.
A streetlight in the distance shone;
It's not good man should be alone.
And yet, in solitude I sat,
And questioned where my life was at.
I've given all unto my Lord,
His sacrifice, my life restored.
He is my God, my Friend, my King,
His presence makes my spirit sing.
He's with me even as I write,
Perched on a step this Autumn night.
I asked Him if it'd be okay,
To share the words my heart would say?
He answered, "YES", my heart awoke,
And from its depths, my spirit spoke.
The fear that once held its jaws bound,
Was FINALLY not to be found.
You see, this night, I thought of you..."
The key phrase there is "The fear that once held its jaws bound, was FINALLY not to be found..." Look, if you're not going to be who you actually are around others, then you're just a puppet who allows other people to pull your strings. You'll experience great frustration this way, even as I did, and even as is seen in some of your recent comments. I'm not a big fan of contemporary "words of knowledge", seeing how there's so much of "another spirit" in today's churches, but just prior to the incident that I just described, I was in a church service where a young woman whom I perceived to be genuinely godly gave "a word of knowledge" that basically said something like this:
"There's an individual here tonight who is like unto a bottle of strong-smelling perfume. You're afraid to take the lid off and be yourself, for fear that others might be overpowered or offended by the strength of your aroma."
Oh, I know that some here will see nothing but the opportunity to say something like, "Yeah, newguy, you do emit a strong stench", but I knew that that "word" was for me. Anyhow, just be yourself.
That should have read "without EVEN recognizing it"...
QUOTE (Capracus+May 27 2012, 06:38 AM)
An omniscient, omnipotent god can do whatever it damn well pleases. If it wanted to appear as a man, it could. If it needed to be invulnerable to all threats it would be. If it had to educate the ignorant, that too would happen. Stop engaging in these unreasonable mental gymnastics to justify your hold on this virtual security blanket. I’ve seen flashes of reason and objectivity in some of your other arguments, so please strive for that frame of mind and don’t embarrass yourself further with this continued illogic.
Yes, he could do whatever he well pleases, by force, but he chooses not to do so to allow free choice.
If you believe Jesus was God incarnate, then he very well could have come down from the cross and killed all his enemies on the spot, but he did not because that was not why he came to earth as a mortal man. He came here for the opposite reason, which was to lay down his life to save humans.
God provides choice between right and wrong, but he does not force anyone to make the right choice, or the best choice in more complicated situations.
Perhaps.
Perhaps.
It sure sounds like lust. Lust isn’t exclusively about sex. You seem to have an idealized view of women, and you claim it’s universal. Do you feel the same about your mother and sister as you would about an attractive stranger? Hopefully not.
Well, let's just say I don't seem to be restricted to a "type" for one thing.
Oh by the way, I sort of did have crush on my younger sister for like 15 years, so brother/sister relationship was dysfunctional at best because I was perpetually embarrassed with myself. As far as I know, she was mostly unaware of this.
I once had a discussion with Christian people on an open forum, with the big apologists and theologians, about relationships and how could it really be possible for any relationship to exist without some degree of lust involved, and truth is they could no answer me. The reality is it's not humanly possible.
I have personal desires and lusts, I did not deny that. I didn't say "it wasn't lust" I said it wasn't "just lust".
I don't want to be a guy who just wants to get down a girls pants. That was the whole damn point. You're damn right I want sex, but I want a lot more than that too. I want to be a real friend and lover to her.
First of all, it's difficult to find people with like interests at all. I wouldn't even know where to start around here, I've tried.
Secondly, I've tried to get help before, and told everyone from parent, to pastor, to psychologist how hard and confusing social situations are for me, and they simply do not understand. The last time I was around a group of several women happened to be at a technical college, and because I was so different and awkward, they were put off and some of them even afraid of me for no apparent reason that I could control. I even experienced reverse harassment and had some of them file a police report against me, and God is my witness I didn't do anything wrong except show up, do my work, and TRY to interact with people. The place was like being in a pit full of jackals or something.
When I was at LSU I was awkward as hell, but at least some times I did communicate with people and I never had that big of a problem, even though I could never really express or deal with my feelings. I never felt harassed by any woman at LSU, and there was only one issue with one guy there, so may it's the different quality of people. But there was this one time I was supposed to work on a project for class together with two women and I could not do it. For some reason, I just shut down and retreated inside my mind and couldn't function right. I remember like it was yesterday, and It was 14 years ago.
I can work around older women and don't have that problem at all, but if it's "date/marriage" age for me, then I'm screwed ( or rather not getting any, that's for sure).
If it's a formal setting, such as a worker/client setting, it works, but even if there's some attraction or "moment", or an opportunity to say, ask someone out on a date in that situation...that doesn't work. It's like my tongue cleaves in my mouth or something, and I'm just not able to say anything personal or meaningful, nor know what to say or how to proceed at that point.
Ironically, I take the stupid dating site's test on "dating preparation" and score 100% on their scale.
If they only knew...
First of all, it's difficult to find people with like interests at all. I wouldn't even know where to start around here, I've tried.
Secondly, I've tried to get help before, and told everyone from parent, to pastor, to psychologist how hard and confusing social situations are for me, and they simply do not understand. The last time I was around a group of several women happened to be at a technical college, and because I was so different and awkward, they were put off and some of them even afraid of me for no apparent reason that I could control. I even experienced reverse harassment and had some of them file a police report against me, and God is my witness I didn't do anything wrong except show up, do my work, and TRY to interact with people. The place was like being in a pit full of jackals or something.
When I was at LSU I was awkward as hell, but at least some times I did communicate with people and I never had that big of a problem, even though I could never really express or deal with my feelings. I never felt harassed by any woman at LSU, and there was only one issue with one guy there, so may it's the different quality of people. But there was this one time I was supposed to work on a project for class together with two women and I could not do it. For some reason, I just shut down and retreated inside my mind and couldn't function right. I remember like it was yesterday, and It was 14 years ago.
I can work around older women and don't have that problem at all, but if it's "date/marriage" age for me, then I'm screwed ( or rather not getting any, that's for sure).
If it's a formal setting, such as a worker/client setting, it works, but even if there's some attraction or "moment", or an opportunity to say, ask someone out on a date in that situation...that doesn't work. It's like my tongue cleaves in my mouth or something, and I'm just not able to say anything personal or meaningful, nor know what to say or how to proceed at that point.
Ironically, I take the stupid dating site's test on "dating preparation" and score 100% on their scale.
If they only knew...
Also take Mekigal’s advice and get laid. Don’t save it for marriage, find some disease free, intellectually compatible women, and get it out of your system.
Do you understand that I spent my entire life having been raised to believe that behavior is evil, under the category of "fornication" or "adultery," as a fundamental bases of my morality and reasoning.
I don't know how to find some moderation zone in that direction which doesn't violate my peace and conscience. I have tried.
Maybe that's just how our civilization works now, but I don't know how I'm supposed to reconcile that while being anything other than a complete hypocrite.
Yes, he could do whatever he well pleases, by force, but he chooses not to do so to allow free choice.
If you believe Jesus was God incarnate, then he very well could have come down from the cross and killed all his enemies on the spot, but he did not because that was not why he came to earth as a mortal man. He came here for the opposite reason, which was to lay down his life to save humans.
God provides choice between right and wrong, but he does not force anyone to make the right choice, or the best choice in more complicated situations.
QUOTE
If all people were homosexual would they cease engaging in agriculture and acquiring other resources deemed necessary to support their civilization? Not likely. People too are a necessary resource for any civilization, even for one who’s members prefer to bugger non-reproductively. But make no mistake about it, to maintain that precious human resource, gay sperm would find lesbian ovum. It’s not like gay men can’t have intercourse with women, they just prefer their own kind. Most people may not particularly enjoy butchering an animal to eat it, but if all butchers became vegan, the carnivorous would sharpen their knives.
Perhaps.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| If all people were homosexual would they cease engaging in agriculture and acquiring other resources deemed necessary to support their civilization? Not likely. People too are a necessary resource for any civilization, even for one who’s members prefer to bugger non-reproductively. But make no mistake about it, to maintain that precious human resource, gay sperm would find lesbian ovum. It’s not like gay men can’t have intercourse with women, they just prefer their own kind. Most people may not particularly enjoy butchering an animal to eat it, but if all butchers became vegan, the carnivorous would sharpen their knives. |
Perhaps.
It sure sounds like lust. Lust isn’t exclusively about sex. You seem to have an idealized view of women, and you claim it’s universal. Do you feel the same about your mother and sister as you would about an attractive stranger? Hopefully not.
Well, let's just say I don't seem to be restricted to a "type" for one thing.
Oh by the way, I sort of did have crush on my younger sister for like 15 years, so brother/sister relationship was dysfunctional at best because I was perpetually embarrassed with myself. As far as I know, she was mostly unaware of this.
I once had a discussion with Christian people on an open forum, with the big apologists and theologians, about relationships and how could it really be possible for any relationship to exist without some degree of lust involved, and truth is they could no answer me. The reality is it's not humanly possible.
I have personal desires and lusts, I did not deny that. I didn't say "it wasn't lust" I said it wasn't "just lust".
I don't want to be a guy who just wants to get down a girls pants. That was the whole damn point. You're damn right I want sex, but I want a lot more than that too. I want to be a real friend and lover to her.
QUOTE
To dispel this idealism you need to take FBM’s advice and socialize with groups and individuals with like interests.
First of all, it's difficult to find people with like interests at all. I wouldn't even know where to start around here, I've tried.
Secondly, I've tried to get help before, and told everyone from parent, to pastor, to psychologist how hard and confusing social situations are for me, and they simply do not understand. The last time I was around a group of several women happened to be at a technical college, and because I was so different and awkward, they were put off and some of them even afraid of me for no apparent reason that I could control. I even experienced reverse harassment and had some of them file a police report against me, and God is my witness I didn't do anything wrong except show up, do my work, and TRY to interact with people. The place was like being in a pit full of jackals or something.
When I was at LSU I was awkward as hell, but at least some times I did communicate with people and I never had that big of a problem, even though I could never really express or deal with my feelings. I never felt harassed by any woman at LSU, and there was only one issue with one guy there, so may it's the different quality of people. But there was this one time I was supposed to work on a project for class together with two women and I could not do it. For some reason, I just shut down and retreated inside my mind and couldn't function right. I remember like it was yesterday, and It was 14 years ago.
I can work around older women and don't have that problem at all, but if it's "date/marriage" age for me, then I'm screwed ( or rather not getting any, that's for sure).
If it's a formal setting, such as a worker/client setting, it works, but even if there's some attraction or "moment", or an opportunity to say, ask someone out on a date in that situation...that doesn't work. It's like my tongue cleaves in my mouth or something, and I'm just not able to say anything personal or meaningful, nor know what to say or how to proceed at that point.
Ironically, I take the stupid dating site's test on "dating preparation" and score 100% on their scale.
If they only knew...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| To dispel this idealism you need to take FBM’s advice and socialize with groups and individuals with like interests. |
First of all, it's difficult to find people with like interests at all. I wouldn't even know where to start around here, I've tried.
Secondly, I've tried to get help before, and told everyone from parent, to pastor, to psychologist how hard and confusing social situations are for me, and they simply do not understand. The last time I was around a group of several women happened to be at a technical college, and because I was so different and awkward, they were put off and some of them even afraid of me for no apparent reason that I could control. I even experienced reverse harassment and had some of them file a police report against me, and God is my witness I didn't do anything wrong except show up, do my work, and TRY to interact with people. The place was like being in a pit full of jackals or something.
When I was at LSU I was awkward as hell, but at least some times I did communicate with people and I never had that big of a problem, even though I could never really express or deal with my feelings. I never felt harassed by any woman at LSU, and there was only one issue with one guy there, so may it's the different quality of people. But there was this one time I was supposed to work on a project for class together with two women and I could not do it. For some reason, I just shut down and retreated inside my mind and couldn't function right. I remember like it was yesterday, and It was 14 years ago.
I can work around older women and don't have that problem at all, but if it's "date/marriage" age for me, then I'm screwed ( or rather not getting any, that's for sure).
If it's a formal setting, such as a worker/client setting, it works, but even if there's some attraction or "moment", or an opportunity to say, ask someone out on a date in that situation...that doesn't work. It's like my tongue cleaves in my mouth or something, and I'm just not able to say anything personal or meaningful, nor know what to say or how to proceed at that point.
Ironically, I take the stupid dating site's test on "dating preparation" and score 100% on their scale.
If they only knew...
Also take Mekigal’s advice and get laid. Don’t save it for marriage, find some disease free, intellectually compatible women, and get it out of your system.
Do you understand that I spent my entire life having been raised to believe that behavior is evil, under the category of "fornication" or "adultery," as a fundamental bases of my morality and reasoning.
I don't know how to find some moderation zone in that direction which doesn't violate my peace and conscience. I have tried.
Maybe that's just how our civilization works now, but I don't know how I'm supposed to reconcile that while being anything other than a complete hypocrite.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 27 2012, 02:52 PM)
Yes, he could do whatever he well pleases, by force, but he chooses not to do so to allow free choice.
No force necessary. Jesus/God only need lead by example. The absentee god of the Abrahamic religions who ambiguously speaks through prophets is not a good example of an effective leader. Like any good parent, God needs to show himself and leave no doubt who is running the show. If God wants to make life a test of will, then at least be available for supervision, and maybe childproof the playground a bit.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to those of us who abstain from Kool-Aid? Can a mortal man walk on water, cause food to multiply, or perform numerous miraculous feats? Such a being could easily stop his enemies rather that kill them. Essentially your claim amounts to immortal Jesus/God coming to Earth to symbolically act out his own immaterial death, just as the actor Jim Caviezel did in The Passion of the Christ.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to those of us who abstain from Kool-Aid? Can a mortal man walk on water, cause food to multiply, or perform numerous miraculous feats? Such a being could easily stop his enemies rather that kill them. Essentially your claim amounts to immortal Jesus/God coming to Earth to symbolically act out his own immaterial death, just as the actor Jim Caviezel did in The Passion of the Christ.
God provides choice between right and wrong, but he does not force anyone to make the right choice, or the best choice in more complicated situations.
Your god is a derelict dad that should be hauled into cosmic court on charges of child neglect.
You might want to approach this dilemma more clinically, and maybe consider a professional sex surrogate.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/sex-surrogate...47#.T8MrSVJD5kh
No force necessary. Jesus/God only need lead by example. The absentee god of the Abrahamic religions who ambiguously speaks through prophets is not a good example of an effective leader. Like any good parent, God needs to show himself and leave no doubt who is running the show. If God wants to make life a test of will, then at least be available for supervision, and maybe childproof the playground a bit.
QUOTE
If you believe Jesus was God incarnate, then he very well could have come down from the cross and killed all his enemies on the spot, but he did not because that was not why he came to earth as a mortal man. He came here for the opposite reason, which was to lay down his life to save humans.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to those of us who abstain from Kool-Aid? Can a mortal man walk on water, cause food to multiply, or perform numerous miraculous feats? Such a being could easily stop his enemies rather that kill them. Essentially your claim amounts to immortal Jesus/God coming to Earth to symbolically act out his own immaterial death, just as the actor Jim Caviezel did in The Passion of the Christ.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| If you believe Jesus was God incarnate, then he very well could have come down from the cross and killed all his enemies on the spot, but he did not because that was not why he came to earth as a mortal man. He came here for the opposite reason, which was to lay down his life to save humans. |
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to those of us who abstain from Kool-Aid? Can a mortal man walk on water, cause food to multiply, or perform numerous miraculous feats? Such a being could easily stop his enemies rather that kill them. Essentially your claim amounts to immortal Jesus/God coming to Earth to symbolically act out his own immaterial death, just as the actor Jim Caviezel did in The Passion of the Christ.
God provides choice between right and wrong, but he does not force anyone to make the right choice, or the best choice in more complicated situations.
Your god is a derelict dad that should be hauled into cosmic court on charges of child neglect.
QUOTE
Do you understand that I spent my entire life having been raised to believe that behavior is evil, under the category of "fornication" or "adultery," as a fundamental bases of my morality and reasoning.
You might want to approach this dilemma more clinically, and maybe consider a professional sex surrogate.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/sex-surrogate...47#.T8MrSVJD5kh
QUOTE (Capracus+May 28 2012, 02:51 AM)
You might want to approach this dilemma more clinically, and maybe consider a professional sex surrogate.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/sex-surrogate...47#.T8MrSVJD5kh
If a woman was patient enough and loving enough to help me like that I'd have to love and adore her for real. There's no way that would stop at a therapist/client relationship, or "just sex".
I have acknowledged to myself that I need a really patient and loving woman who is willing to help me grow out of this bondage. I also considered I might need to somehow move to California where women are more liberal and maybe more approachable than what I've experienced. I am also aware and ashamed because it shouldn't have to be a burden or responsibility to her. It was supposed to be my responsibility to be strong and to know how to be good to her and communicate, overcome my fear and pride and things, and I feel like a complete failure at that.
Like I said above, it's not just about sex. For me it's not just about getting off with a woman. I want a relationship both verbal and physical that is about honoring and loving her, and just be at peace and have a clear conscience. Yes, I need what I need, but I really want to love a woman for real, and any woman that was that patient and good to me, to help heal me like that, would deserve every ounce of love in my being; money or no money. That's the person I'd want to marry, for goodness sake. So that might be a problem, or it might be a good thing.
I realize that is not the same thing as prostitution, because they are trying to heal guys who have problems that are destroying their lives, which is honestly where I have been for all of mine.
Even if I was to go out and hire a prostitute, I would have to genuinely love her too. It couldn't just be about sex for me, because that's who I am, and I think that's a good thing that I want to nurture and grow.
But I do need help in so many social aspects from introduction to the heart of a relationship, that nobody has been able to give me through any conventional means, in part because nobody really understands, at least not before the past few days when I got into this on this forum.
Like even in the case of some of the female friends I have had, which I really had sexual feelings for, I was never able to get past the "friend/aquaintence" zone and express any real, more intimate feelings or "ask for a date" sort of interaction, or even "flirt" with her. I am terrible at just flirting with a woman or making small talk, or else end up talking about something irrelevant and impersonal that distracts from the problem instead of dealing with it.
When the woman initiates a conversation, I do better, but still can't go to any intimate or personal level most of the time, but whenever I'm trying to be initiating contact, it sucks and never gets past hello, and I even have trouble just introducing myself by name and getting hers.
Like if you're shopping in a store and wondering about something, and a cute woman walks by and asking her opinion would be a perfect excuse to get to talk to her, I haven't even been able to do that. Maybe that's contrived, but it should reasonably be an ice breaker for normal people, but for me I can't even get that far most of the time.
It's that bad guys, always has been.
I will tell you that pastors and other religious councilors are a complete joke when it comes to social counselling. They're about as useless as a piece of garbage, from my experience.
At least the psychologists acknowledge real world problems that you can't always easily just "will" away.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/sex-surrogate...47#.T8MrSVJD5kh
If a woman was patient enough and loving enough to help me like that I'd have to love and adore her for real. There's no way that would stop at a therapist/client relationship, or "just sex".
I have acknowledged to myself that I need a really patient and loving woman who is willing to help me grow out of this bondage. I also considered I might need to somehow move to California where women are more liberal and maybe more approachable than what I've experienced. I am also aware and ashamed because it shouldn't have to be a burden or responsibility to her. It was supposed to be my responsibility to be strong and to know how to be good to her and communicate, overcome my fear and pride and things, and I feel like a complete failure at that.
Like I said above, it's not just about sex. For me it's not just about getting off with a woman. I want a relationship both verbal and physical that is about honoring and loving her, and just be at peace and have a clear conscience. Yes, I need what I need, but I really want to love a woman for real, and any woman that was that patient and good to me, to help heal me like that, would deserve every ounce of love in my being; money or no money. That's the person I'd want to marry, for goodness sake. So that might be a problem, or it might be a good thing.
I realize that is not the same thing as prostitution, because they are trying to heal guys who have problems that are destroying their lives, which is honestly where I have been for all of mine.
Even if I was to go out and hire a prostitute, I would have to genuinely love her too. It couldn't just be about sex for me, because that's who I am, and I think that's a good thing that I want to nurture and grow.
But I do need help in so many social aspects from introduction to the heart of a relationship, that nobody has been able to give me through any conventional means, in part because nobody really understands, at least not before the past few days when I got into this on this forum.
Like even in the case of some of the female friends I have had, which I really had sexual feelings for, I was never able to get past the "friend/aquaintence" zone and express any real, more intimate feelings or "ask for a date" sort of interaction, or even "flirt" with her. I am terrible at just flirting with a woman or making small talk, or else end up talking about something irrelevant and impersonal that distracts from the problem instead of dealing with it.
When the woman initiates a conversation, I do better, but still can't go to any intimate or personal level most of the time, but whenever I'm trying to be initiating contact, it sucks and never gets past hello, and I even have trouble just introducing myself by name and getting hers.
Like if you're shopping in a store and wondering about something, and a cute woman walks by and asking her opinion would be a perfect excuse to get to talk to her, I haven't even been able to do that. Maybe that's contrived, but it should reasonably be an ice breaker for normal people, but for me I can't even get that far most of the time.
It's that bad guys, always has been.
I will tell you that pastors and other religious councilors are a complete joke when it comes to social counselling. They're about as useless as a piece of garbage, from my experience.
At least the psychologists acknowledge real world problems that you can't always easily just "will" away.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 28 2012, 03:33 PM)
If a woman was patient enough and loving enough to help me like that I'd have to love and adore her for real. There's no way that would stop at a therapist/client relationship, or "just sex".
If you had a session with a martial arts instructor, would your lack of emotional control compel you to kill or maim him? Probably not. You likely already possess the ability to apply the appropriate emotional response to some common social situations. Just like the martial arts instructor would assist you with the mechanics of fighting, a sex therapist would help you with the mechanics of love.
If you had a session with a martial arts instructor, would your lack of emotional control compel you to kill or maim him? Probably not. You likely already possess the ability to apply the appropriate emotional response to some common social situations. Just like the martial arts instructor would assist you with the mechanics of fighting, a sex therapist would help you with the mechanics of love.
QUOTE (Capracus+May 28 2012, 05:44 PM)
If you had a session with a martial arts instructor, would your lack of emotional control compel you to kill or maim him? Probably not. You likely already possess the ability to apply the appropriate emotional response to some common social situations. Just like the martial arts instructor would assist you with the mechanics of fighting, a sex therapist would help you with the mechanics of love.
I didn't role play dates, nor have sex with my martial arts instructor nor his smoking hot wife.
I'm just being realistic about it. Love and sexual memories don't go away, short of something ridiculous like a head injury.
If I did "introduction to intercourse" therapy with some sex therapist "sex surrogate," like that article described, i'd pretty much be hooked on her.
You might not understand how eidetic memory works, but I can pretty much cycle through almost every woman I ever met, or even just a photo online from anything, a dating site, or a media site, or anything, and If I had a particular interest in her, I will remember her and whatever feeling I had or might have had is revived and remembered.
The incident with the girl at church back 8 years ago? That took me 3 or 4 years to get where I could actually stop thinking about her, and I never really got past casual introduction, and hanging around with her in a group of 4 or 5 people, and then I was basically "friend zoned" and didn't know how to deal with it, and by the time I finally worked up some kind of nerve to tell her how I felt about her, it was too late because she was already dating someone else. Which in hind sight he was right for her anyway, and I most certainly was not, but that's not the point. The point is I was dysfunctional until the very end, when if I had only been able to behave like a man should behave, I would have found that out earlier and moved on, or somehow help reign in my feelings. I could never go from this "sort of friends" situation to "let's date" (or at least ask,) even though I "talked" to her or was around her a lot.
Back on topic, it would never be that simple as just do some therapy, especially of some intimate nature like this, and then be expected to forget her and move on. I remember every girl or woman I ever had a crush on, even if it was a television character or something ridiculous like that, and I mostly remember it like it was yesterday. I could almost draw some girls from memory, almost. I does fade a little bit over time, so don't get me wrong, but still.
Anyway, maybe that really is what I need, but I doubt it's even legal around here, I don't know.
I said I did need a woman who was patient and loving and able to help me, but it really is unfair to expect a potential "date" to have to put up with that. Heck, I'd never even get to the "date" ordinarily anyway. Never have, except once, and that was a disaster, as I said, and really a bit more of an accident than anything.
I didn't role play dates, nor have sex with my martial arts instructor nor his smoking hot wife.
I'm just being realistic about it. Love and sexual memories don't go away, short of something ridiculous like a head injury.
If I did "introduction to intercourse" therapy with some sex therapist "sex surrogate," like that article described, i'd pretty much be hooked on her.
You might not understand how eidetic memory works, but I can pretty much cycle through almost every woman I ever met, or even just a photo online from anything, a dating site, or a media site, or anything, and If I had a particular interest in her, I will remember her and whatever feeling I had or might have had is revived and remembered.
The incident with the girl at church back 8 years ago? That took me 3 or 4 years to get where I could actually stop thinking about her, and I never really got past casual introduction, and hanging around with her in a group of 4 or 5 people, and then I was basically "friend zoned" and didn't know how to deal with it, and by the time I finally worked up some kind of nerve to tell her how I felt about her, it was too late because she was already dating someone else. Which in hind sight he was right for her anyway, and I most certainly was not, but that's not the point. The point is I was dysfunctional until the very end, when if I had only been able to behave like a man should behave, I would have found that out earlier and moved on, or somehow help reign in my feelings. I could never go from this "sort of friends" situation to "let's date" (or at least ask,) even though I "talked" to her or was around her a lot.
Back on topic, it would never be that simple as just do some therapy, especially of some intimate nature like this, and then be expected to forget her and move on. I remember every girl or woman I ever had a crush on, even if it was a television character or something ridiculous like that, and I mostly remember it like it was yesterday. I could almost draw some girls from memory, almost. I does fade a little bit over time, so don't get me wrong, but still.
Anyway, maybe that really is what I need, but I doubt it's even legal around here, I don't know.
I said I did need a woman who was patient and loving and able to help me, but it really is unfair to expect a potential "date" to have to put up with that. Heck, I'd never even get to the "date" ordinarily anyway. Never have, except once, and that was a disaster, as I said, and really a bit more of an accident than anything.
Have you thought of looking overseas for a bride. The Thai and Filipino girls are very loyal and attractive.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+May 29 2012, 02:38 AM)
I didn't role play dates, nor have sex with my martial arts instructor nor his smoking hot wife.
I'm just being realistic about it. Love and sexual memories don't go away, short of something ridiculous like a head injury.
If I did "introduction to intercourse" therapy with some sex therapist "sex surrogate," like that article described, i'd pretty much be hooked on her.
You might not understand how eidetic memory works, but I can pretty much cycle through almost every woman I ever met, or even just a photo online from anything, a dating site, or a media site, or anything, and If I had a particular interest in her, I will remember her and whatever feeling I had or might have had is revived and remembered.
The incident with the girl at church back 8 years ago? That took me 3 or 4 years to get where I could actually stop thinking about her, and I never really got past casual introduction, and hanging around with her in a group of 4 or 5 people, and then I was basically "friend zoned" and didn't know how to deal with it, and by the time I finally worked up some kind of nerve to tell her how I felt about her, it was too late because she was already dating someone else. Which in hind sight he was right for her anyway, and I most certainly was not, but that's not the point. The point is I was dysfunctional until the very end, when if I had only been able to behave like a man should behave, I would have found that out earlier and moved on, or somehow help reign in my feelings. I could never go from this "sort of friends" situation to "let's date" (or at least ask,) even though I "talked" to her or was around her a lot.
Back on topic, it would never be that simple as just do some therapy, especially of some intimate nature like this, and then be expected to forget her and move on. I remember every girl or woman I ever had a crush on, even if it was a television character or something ridiculous like that, and I mostly remember it like it was yesterday. I could almost draw some girls from memory, almost. I does fade a little bit over time, so don't get me wrong, but still.
Anyway, maybe that really is what I need, but I doubt it's even legal around here, I don't know.
I said I did need a woman who was patient and loving and able to help me, but it really is unfair to expect a potential "date" to have to put up with that. Heck, I'd never even get to the "date" ordinarily anyway. Never have, except once, and that was a disaster, as I said, and really a bit more of an accident than anything.
Don't have time right now , but I can help you . The whispered word will be your friend . Oh my God . Did you see Jimmy Fallon show last night . They did a skit on celebrity whispers that just had Me rolling in the dirt .
Oh your funny Jimmy. Your reading Me . I bet your reading Me or your scripturers are . Could be wrong ? Maybe it is usage of the same emergence
I'm just being realistic about it. Love and sexual memories don't go away, short of something ridiculous like a head injury.
If I did "introduction to intercourse" therapy with some sex therapist "sex surrogate," like that article described, i'd pretty much be hooked on her.
You might not understand how eidetic memory works, but I can pretty much cycle through almost every woman I ever met, or even just a photo online from anything, a dating site, or a media site, or anything, and If I had a particular interest in her, I will remember her and whatever feeling I had or might have had is revived and remembered.
The incident with the girl at church back 8 years ago? That took me 3 or 4 years to get where I could actually stop thinking about her, and I never really got past casual introduction, and hanging around with her in a group of 4 or 5 people, and then I was basically "friend zoned" and didn't know how to deal with it, and by the time I finally worked up some kind of nerve to tell her how I felt about her, it was too late because she was already dating someone else. Which in hind sight he was right for her anyway, and I most certainly was not, but that's not the point. The point is I was dysfunctional until the very end, when if I had only been able to behave like a man should behave, I would have found that out earlier and moved on, or somehow help reign in my feelings. I could never go from this "sort of friends" situation to "let's date" (or at least ask,) even though I "talked" to her or was around her a lot.
Back on topic, it would never be that simple as just do some therapy, especially of some intimate nature like this, and then be expected to forget her and move on. I remember every girl or woman I ever had a crush on, even if it was a television character or something ridiculous like that, and I mostly remember it like it was yesterday. I could almost draw some girls from memory, almost. I does fade a little bit over time, so don't get me wrong, but still.
Anyway, maybe that really is what I need, but I doubt it's even legal around here, I don't know.
I said I did need a woman who was patient and loving and able to help me, but it really is unfair to expect a potential "date" to have to put up with that. Heck, I'd never even get to the "date" ordinarily anyway. Never have, except once, and that was a disaster, as I said, and really a bit more of an accident than anything.
Don't have time right now , but I can help you . The whispered word will be your friend . Oh my God . Did you see Jimmy Fallon show last night . They did a skit on celebrity whispers that just had Me rolling in the dirt .
Oh your funny Jimmy. Your reading Me . I bet your reading Me or your scripturers are . Could be wrong ? Maybe it is usage of the same emergence
Jesus was no mutant he was divine, you could say he came from the future, the only way he could exist with us was to be born into our time. He was part of God the same way you are part of your father. He died to give us time, have you never wondered why he did not stay after the resurection. If he had stayed he could have gone to rome and said look you killed me I am back follow me or face the cosequences, rome and all others would have converted overnight saving much suffering, this though would have taken time, time he wanted to give to us, time the most precious of gods gifts, being divine his time was worth far more than we can imagine.
QUOTE (Ewol+May 31 2012, 09:07 AM)
Jesus was no mutant he was divine, you could say he came from the future, the only way he could exist with us was to be born into our time. He was part of God the same way you are part of your father. He died to give us time, have you never wondered why he did not stay after the resurection. If he had stayed he could have gone to rome and said look you killed me I am back follow me or face the cosequences, rome and all others would have converted overnight saving much suffering, this though would have taken time, time he wanted to give to us, time the most precious of gods gifts, being divine his time was worth far more than we can imagine.
God you live in a dream world . I thought I had a bad cause of not facing reality.
Jesus was no more no less than a Jim Morrison , Kurt Coban, Jimi Hendrix, Janus Joplin . You think the in Joplin Missisippi for no reason ( Go talk to a pretty girl that goes by Bebelina , You can find her on Myspace) She will explain the black bird incident for your your victimized mind . The one in Bebe
Oh that is funny " word "
To understand that think of word as an object like in mathematics function . That being the word is an object and I am talking to that object one on one like it is a living document .
Jesus was a faffaffriggen idiot . A fool . I do like your usage of the little me.
I am back follow Me . Capitalize the me always. It is in your bible like that if you look closer at you bi-laws of incorporation
God you live in a dream world . I thought I had a bad cause of not facing reality.
Jesus was no more no less than a Jim Morrison , Kurt Coban, Jimi Hendrix, Janus Joplin . You think the in Joplin Missisippi for no reason ( Go talk to a pretty girl that goes by Bebelina , You can find her on Myspace) She will explain the black bird incident for your your victimized mind . The one in Bebe
Oh that is funny " word "
To understand that think of word as an object like in mathematics function . That being the word is an object and I am talking to that object one on one like it is a living document .
Jesus was a faffaffriggen idiot . A fool . I do like your usage of the little me.
I am back follow Me . Capitalize the me always. It is in your bible like that if you look closer at you bi-laws of incorporation
You worship Janis Joplin if you like, I will keep my trust in God.
Also wondering if english is your main language or do you like a drink?
Also wondering if english is your main language or do you like a drink?
QUOTE (Ewol+May 31 2012, 08:49 PM)
You worship Janis Joplin if you like, I will keep my trust in God.
Also wondering if english is your main language or do you like a drink?
I am . No I don't but drink 2 or 3 beers in a week . I am dyslexic . My whole personality is . I see the back doors of life . The ones you slam shut . It is a gift . A curse for me but a gift for you . I just look for love and get hands full of ***. Except that is not true as secretly out of the sight of political correctness lives my fan base. When your in bed touching your self at the stroke of Midnight I am there in your dream haunting you like that serpent of old who is ruler of this planet.
Hi please to meet you . Hope you guess my name .
The Maggy , Maggy May , That ! Yeah . That is why they think I am a girl . Look you all been wanting me to make my appearance . What is the matter with the world ?
Lets clear it up once and for all . I will try to organize the organisms in your brain by memes
1 It is the "stroke of Midnight"
O.K. you got that meme right . Think about it for a minute
2 Magnum
3 357
4 It is time
5 We gonna shake a tambourine
6 When ?
7 After Midnight
8 Hey Joe Where you going with that gun in your hand
9The invention of the cross 5/3( vanity branding, I feel sexy)
10 Mid-Night Special
11 Get one girls
12 What is a mid-night special ?
13 A 357 magnum
14 May Day
15 May Day
16 May Day
O.K. people of the word and world What time is it ?
You ever hear of the point of no return .
What time is it ?
Mid-night
Also wondering if english is your main language or do you like a drink?
I am . No I don't but drink 2 or 3 beers in a week . I am dyslexic . My whole personality is . I see the back doors of life . The ones you slam shut . It is a gift . A curse for me but a gift for you . I just look for love and get hands full of ***. Except that is not true as secretly out of the sight of political correctness lives my fan base. When your in bed touching your self at the stroke of Midnight I am there in your dream haunting you like that serpent of old who is ruler of this planet.
Hi please to meet you . Hope you guess my name .
The Maggy , Maggy May , That ! Yeah . That is why they think I am a girl . Look you all been wanting me to make my appearance . What is the matter with the world ?
Lets clear it up once and for all . I will try to organize the organisms in your brain by memes
1 It is the "stroke of Midnight"
O.K. you got that meme right . Think about it for a minute
2 Magnum
3 357
4 It is time
5 We gonna shake a tambourine
6 When ?
7 After Midnight
8 Hey Joe Where you going with that gun in your hand
9The invention of the cross 5/3( vanity branding, I feel sexy)
10 Mid-Night Special
11 Get one girls
12 What is a mid-night special ?
13 A 357 magnum
14 May Day
15 May Day
16 May Day
O.K. people of the word and world What time is it ?
You ever hear of the point of no return .
What time is it ?
Mid-night
QUOTE (Mekigal+May 31 2012, 09:19 PM)
I am . No I don't but drink 2 or 3 beers in a week . I am dyslexic . My whole personality is . I see the back doors of life . The ones you slam shut . It is a gift . A curse for me but a gift for you . I just look for love and get hands full of ***. Except that is not true as secretly out of the sight of political correctness lives my fan base. When your in bed touching your self at the stroke of Midnight I am there in your dream haunting you like that serpent of old who is ruler of this planet.
Hi please to meet you . Hope you guess my name .
The Maggy , Maggy May , That ! Yeah . That is why they think I am a girl . Look you all been wanting me to make my appearance . What is the matter with the world ?
Lets clear it up once and for all . I will try to organize the organisms in your brain by memes
1 It is the "stroke of Midnight"
O.K. you got that meme right . Think about it for a minute
2 Magnum
3 357
4 It is time
5 We gonna shake a tambourine
6 When ?
7 After Midnight
8 Hey Joe Where you going with that gun in your hand
9The invention of the cross 5/3( vanity branding, I feel sexy)
10 Mid-Night Special
11 Get one girls
12 What is a mid-night special ?
13 A 357 magnum
14 May Day
15 May Day
16 May Day
O.K. people of the word and world What time is it ?
You ever hear of the point of no return .
What time is it ?
Mid-night
I don't worship anyone and in the same breath I worship every one . Even you! Why ? Because you are part of the living. I am dependent on you because of it . Our lives are tangled in a web of local in spacetime . We are part of the same being . You would not know about that unless you first understand circles of influence in the world and learn to recognize your own circles that bind you to your code of destruction you and your circles perpetrate on the world as a whole
Hi please to meet you . Hope you guess my name .
The Maggy , Maggy May , That ! Yeah . That is why they think I am a girl . Look you all been wanting me to make my appearance . What is the matter with the world ?
Lets clear it up once and for all . I will try to organize the organisms in your brain by memes
1 It is the "stroke of Midnight"
O.K. you got that meme right . Think about it for a minute
2 Magnum
3 357
4 It is time
5 We gonna shake a tambourine
6 When ?
7 After Midnight
8 Hey Joe Where you going with that gun in your hand
9The invention of the cross 5/3( vanity branding, I feel sexy)
10 Mid-Night Special
11 Get one girls
12 What is a mid-night special ?
13 A 357 magnum
14 May Day
15 May Day
16 May Day
O.K. people of the word and world What time is it ?
You ever hear of the point of no return .
What time is it ?
Mid-night
I don't worship anyone and in the same breath I worship every one . Even you! Why ? Because you are part of the living. I am dependent on you because of it . Our lives are tangled in a web of local in spacetime . We are part of the same being . You would not know about that unless you first understand circles of influence in the world and learn to recognize your own circles that bind you to your code of destruction you and your circles perpetrate on the world as a whole
Mekigal, you kinda lost all credibility when you claimed in your PM to me that "all women want to be raped".
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 2 2012, 02:01 AM)
Mekigal, you kinda lost all credibility when you claimed in your PM to me that "all women want to be raped".
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
On another forum that is just about a terminal mistake - to publicise something admitted in a private mail communication.
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
On another forum that is just about a terminal mistake - to publicise something admitted in a private mail communication.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 1 2012, 10:01 PM)
Mekigal, you kinda lost all credibility when you claimed in your PM to me that "all women want to be raped".
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
I'm pretty sure he's suffering from some kind of mental deficiency, and not the "I disagree with you, so you're mentally deficient" kind. None of his posts make the slightest bit of sense.
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
I'm pretty sure he's suffering from some kind of mental deficiency, and not the "I disagree with you, so you're mentally deficient" kind. None of his posts make the slightest bit of sense.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 2 2012, 03:21 AM)
I'm pretty sure he's suffering from some kind of mental deficiency, and not the "I disagree with you, so you're mentally deficient" kind. None of his posts make the slightest bit of sense.
That was a misinterpretation of love . I never said woman want to be raped . He needs to do some googling on the sexuality of a woman and see what women have to say about it . Then reread my p.m. to him
His fantasy of clean love is going to disappoint him.
Girls don't go for Jesus. Nuns maybe , but out side of that Jesus is not a turn on to a girl .
And I never advocate raping a woman . That is an out right lie or misinterpretation of sexual games i proposed with a " Willing partner "
Defined as someone who wants to have sex with you .
What was the deal with him going to a porn site and whacking off to a girl stripping for money ? The nerve .
That was a misinterpretation of love . I never said woman want to be raped . He needs to do some googling on the sexuality of a woman and see what women have to say about it . Then reread my p.m. to him
His fantasy of clean love is going to disappoint him.
Girls don't go for Jesus. Nuns maybe , but out side of that Jesus is not a turn on to a girl .
And I never advocate raping a woman . That is an out right lie or misinterpretation of sexual games i proposed with a " Willing partner "
Defined as someone who wants to have sex with you .
What was the deal with him going to a porn site and whacking off to a girl stripping for money ? The nerve .
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 2 2012, 03:21 AM)
I'm pretty sure he's suffering from some kind of mental deficiency, and not the "I disagree with you, so you're mentally deficient" kind. None of his posts make the slightest bit of sense.
it is your lack of imagination that makes you say that .
it is your lack of imagination that makes you say that .
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 2 2012, 02:01 AM)
Mekigal, you kinda lost all credibility when you claimed in your PM to me that "all women want to be raped".
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
Go buy a book on sexuality < "Everything you wanted to know about sex" is a good place for your naive mind to start .
You misinterpreted my P.M. because of your fairy tale ideas about love .
You need to listen to that Jack White song
I want love to walk right up and fight me . and so one and so on
Make my friends my enemies . show Me how its all my fault .
Roll Me over slowly and stick a knife in side me twist it all around
Get a clue if you ever want to have girlfriend
That guy formally known as Knowledge ( religious fanatic) He looked longingly into his girlfriends eyes ( she put him in the Just friends category) as another guy was banging her as he confessed his unyielding love for her. That is going to be you in a few years if you don't wise up.
Jesus don't have relationships with a woman or a wife . He is of boy mentality ( the son , not the father ) The father has sex with his wife .
What are you gonna be < The boy Jesus proto type that don't get any loving form a woman .
Good luck with that bring you happiness . Oh yeah i forgot you Jesus freaks like to suffer while alive . You would rather get your rewards when you are dead and have no more part of life.
I will take my chances and have my happiness now thank you and if that don't do it doing my wife is not a sin so well There is a chance I could get my happy when I am dead also . If and only if your version of the fairy tale is true
I've known of one or two who were raped, and they definitely didn't like it.
Your choice of words is poor at best, because there is no good connotation of the word "rape," definitely not in modern usage.
Go buy a book on sexuality < "Everything you wanted to know about sex" is a good place for your naive mind to start .
You misinterpreted my P.M. because of your fairy tale ideas about love .
You need to listen to that Jack White song
I want love to walk right up and fight me . and so one and so on
Make my friends my enemies . show Me how its all my fault .
Roll Me over slowly and stick a knife in side me twist it all around
Get a clue if you ever want to have girlfriend
That guy formally known as Knowledge ( religious fanatic) He looked longingly into his girlfriends eyes ( she put him in the Just friends category) as another guy was banging her as he confessed his unyielding love for her. That is going to be you in a few years if you don't wise up.
Jesus don't have relationships with a woman or a wife . He is of boy mentality ( the son , not the father ) The father has sex with his wife .
What are you gonna be < The boy Jesus proto type that don't get any loving form a woman .
Good luck with that bring you happiness . Oh yeah i forgot you Jesus freaks like to suffer while alive . You would rather get your rewards when you are dead and have no more part of life.
I will take my chances and have my happiness now thank you and if that don't do it doing my wife is not a sin so well There is a chance I could get my happy when I am dead also . If and only if your version of the fairy tale is true
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