I personally just wanna learn more about evolutionist point of view. i'm personally a creationist and i'm writing an essay on this topic, and i figured the best way to learn about it is to debate it with those who really know what they're talking about
I think most evaluationists will agree about creation in the beginning.
After that it's natural selection due to change in environment and the avalibility of food.
Not a complex concept.
After that it's natural selection due to change in environment and the avalibility of food.
Not a complex concept.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 6 2012, 10:04 PM)
I personally just wanna learn more about evolutionist point of view. i'm personally a creationist and i'm writing an essay on this topic, and i figured the best way to learn about it is to debate it with those who really know what they're talking about
Have tried reading through the Life on Mercury thread. It covers all those subjects in detail. Just not sure how far in though. Don't start at the end but start at the beginning.
Have tried reading through the Life on Mercury thread. It covers all those subjects in detail. Just not sure how far in though. Don't start at the end but start at the beginning.
Three fools barfed complete nonsense before my response. How much more?
How many threads here are simply owned by trolls?
Screw this place.
How many threads here are simply owned by trolls?
Screw this place.
QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Apr 6 2012, 10:25 PM)
After that it's natural selection due to change in environment and the avalibility of food.
Not a complex concept.
So how much creation do they believe in and how much evolution? As in God created Slime and then it went from there. or gravitational singularity, or animals that we see today?
Not a complex concept.
So how much creation do they believe in and how much evolution? As in God created Slime and then it went from there. or gravitational singularity, or animals that we see today?
QUOTE (Guest+Apr 6 2012, 11:30 PM)
Three fools barfed complete nonsense before my response. How much more?
How many threads here are simply owned by trolls?
Screw this place.
You are the Troll. "Get off this thread it is my thread" That is just like what a big bad troll would say.
How many threads here are simply owned by trolls?
Screw this place.
You are the Troll. "Get off this thread it is my thread" That is just like what a big bad troll would say.
It depends what you define as God.
If you say God is a super being sitting on a cloud with a thunder bolt then you will probably be rejected but if you refer to god as nature then I don't think any one can disagree.
If you say God is a super being sitting on a cloud with a thunder bolt then you will probably be rejected but if you refer to god as nature then I don't think any one can disagree.
QUOTE (Guest+Apr 6 2012, 11:30 PM)
Three fools barfed complete nonsense before my response. How much more?
How many threads here are simply owned by trolls?
Screw this place.
We are the three Billy goats and your the Troll
How many threads here are simply owned by trolls?
Screw this place.
We are the three Billy goats and your the Troll
QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Apr 6 2012, 11:58 PM)
if you refer to god as nature then I don't think any one can disagree.
So then God "Nature" created himself? and evolved himself? how can something make itself better with nothing better to make itself with?
So then God "Nature" created himself? and evolved himself? how can something make itself better with nothing better to make itself with?
QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Apr 6 2012, 11:58 PM)
It depends what you define as God.
If you say God is a super being sitting on a cloud with a thunder bolt then you will probably be rejected but if you refer to god as nature then I don't think any one can disagree.
I sit in the big sky
I am a big sky Daddy
Big Sky Montana
I am Superior cause I think fast like a woman
More excuses than a one armed wall paper hanger
That be st. Elmo"s fire in my hand
It is called " The Word"
We all do it .
Use the word that is .
It is how we communicate
That is why it works so well when you combine the right words together
Advertisers are really good at it .
Figuring out the trigger words that cause emotional buying .
It is an art form really
I don't got a prob with creationism in general as long as you don't go saying the earth is 5,000 years old . Creation is part of nature . Hell evolution is creation at work to Me . Rip it apart , put it back together . A little morph-age. Adjustments here and there.
A figurehead that made it all happen ? It takes many humans to build a God . He don't just spring out of no where.
If you say God is a super being sitting on a cloud with a thunder bolt then you will probably be rejected but if you refer to god as nature then I don't think any one can disagree.
I sit in the big sky
I am a big sky Daddy
Big Sky Montana
I am Superior cause I think fast like a woman
More excuses than a one armed wall paper hanger
That be st. Elmo"s fire in my hand
It is called " The Word"
We all do it .
Use the word that is .
It is how we communicate
That is why it works so well when you combine the right words together
Advertisers are really good at it .
Figuring out the trigger words that cause emotional buying .
It is an art form really
I don't got a prob with creationism in general as long as you don't go saying the earth is 5,000 years old . Creation is part of nature . Hell evolution is creation at work to Me . Rip it apart , put it back together . A little morph-age. Adjustments here and there.
A figurehead that made it all happen ? It takes many humans to build a God . He don't just spring out of no where.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 12:53 AM)
So then God "Nature" created himself? and evolved himself? how can something make itself better with nothing better to make itself with?
Keep in mind that evolution doesn't "make things better". There's slight variation in between all the siblings born and the ones that survive best usually survive for a reason. It's not a matter of 'better', except occasionally.
Remember, flowers have been evolving for millions of years. So have birds. Yeah, a wolf is a 'better' predator (to us) than a skunk, but they're both all four examples are *adapted* to their environment. Flowers descend from plants that were more capable of breeding. Birds are also descended from successful breeders.
Keep in mind that evolution doesn't "make things better". There's slight variation in between all the siblings born and the ones that survive best usually survive for a reason. It's not a matter of 'better', except occasionally.
Remember, flowers have been evolving for millions of years. So have birds. Yeah, a wolf is a 'better' predator (to us) than a skunk, but they're both all four examples are *adapted* to their environment. Flowers descend from plants that were more capable of breeding. Birds are also descended from successful breeders.
QUOTE (Mekigal+Apr 7 2012, 12:55 AM)
I don't got a prob with creationism in general as long as you don't go saying the earth is 5,000 years old . Creation is part of nature . Hell evolution is creation at work to Me . Rip it apart , put it back together . A little morph-age. Adjustments here and there.
A figurehead that made it all happen ? It takes many humans to build a God . He don't just spring out of no where.
And I don't have a problem evolutionists... unless they are shallowminded. who's to say something made God. if you believe him to be a superior being then it makes since that he wasn't made because that is what we would expect in our lower mindset. (piece of the grasshopper theory) But i would appreciate it if when you post something to actually know what your talking about. not trying to offend, but its easy to argue for something when you act like the opposing thought doesn't matter or exist.
A figurehead that made it all happen ? It takes many humans to build a God . He don't just spring out of no where.
And I don't have a problem evolutionists... unless they are shallowminded. who's to say something made God. if you believe him to be a superior being then it makes since that he wasn't made because that is what we would expect in our lower mindset. (piece of the grasshopper theory) But i would appreciate it if when you post something to actually know what your talking about. not trying to offend, but its easy to argue for something when you act like the opposing thought doesn't matter or exist.
QUOTE
who's to say something made God
It turtles all the way down.
QUOTE (El_Machinae+Apr 7 2012, 01:04 AM)
Keep in mind that evolution doesn't "make things better".
so your saying coming from a single celled organism to an insanely complex sentient being is not getting better? sure perhaps to a flower its at a point just as good as a wolf because it can make more of itself so good as to keep up with its losses. but from a higher persepective... "us" the wolf is better. So in essence its like stating that all beings are equal unless you allow for a quantum observer. most commonly referred to as God. and i'm not trying to put down your thought or anything debating is just one of the best ways to learn what the other person thinks
so your saying coming from a single celled organism to an insanely complex sentient being is not getting better? sure perhaps to a flower its at a point just as good as a wolf because it can make more of itself so good as to keep up with its losses. but from a higher persepective... "us" the wolf is better. So in essence its like stating that all beings are equal unless you allow for a quantum observer. most commonly referred to as God. and i'm not trying to put down your thought or anything debating is just one of the best ways to learn what the other person thinks
QUOTE
but from a higher persepective... "us" the wolf is better.
By higher perspective you mean us. So by our standards, we are better.
alexG this is for you.... Fear of judgement is the root of all atheism.
God made the rules for the table, whats it matter what dice it lands on? he knows what will happen and what won't
God made man, man made beer, beer made dumb man, dumb man forgot God.
The fool thinks himself wise, but the wise knows he is a fool
God made the rules for the table, whats it matter what dice it lands on? he knows what will happen and what won't
God made man, man made beer, beer made dumb man, dumb man forgot God.
The fool thinks himself wise, but the wise knows he is a fool
oh and alex by the way that was rhetorical "by our standards we are better" that was the point.
"Only the shallow think they've gotten to the bottom of things"
"Only the shallow think they've gotten to the bottom of things"
Ok well i'm going to bed now. perhaps will continue tomorrow. after church lol... oh and i'm not wondering at all about whether there is a spiritual realm and whether it interferes in our lives... i know there is. see, my best friend became a satanist and believe when i say that there are things beyond what our so called science can explain.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 01:11 AM)
so your saying coming from a single celled organism to an insanely complex sentient being is not getting better? sure perhaps to a flower its at a point just as good as a wolf because it can make more of itself so good as to keep up with its losses. but from a higher persepective... "us" the wolf is better. So in essence its like stating that all beings are equal unless you allow for a quantum observer. most commonly referred to as God. and i'm not trying to put down your thought or anything debating is just one of the best ways to learn what the other person thinks
This is a physics forum.
So now it's time for you to prove that humans are better than so called lower life forms.
What is it that we do that makes us better?
All I see is that we do what we need to do to survive and so does every other life form.
This is a physics forum.
So now it's time for you to prove that humans are better than so called lower life forms.
What is it that we do that makes us better?
All I see is that we do what we need to do to survive and so does every other life form.
QUOTE
Fear of judgement is the root of all atheism.
Nah. Rational thinking is the root of atheism. An irrational belief in the supernatural is the root of theism.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 01:11 AM)
so your saying coming from a single celled organism to an insanely complex sentient being is not getting better? sure perhaps to a flower its at a point just as good as a wolf because it can make more of itself so good as to keep up with its losses. but from a higher persepective... "us" the wolf is better. So in essence its like stating that all beings are equal unless you allow for a quantum observer. most commonly referred to as God. and i'm not trying to put down your thought or anything debating is just one of the best ways to learn what the other person thinks
One super-sapient and a handful of sapient species *did* result after a few billion years, and there certainly is convergent evolutionary pressure for intelligence. We're a few blips.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of life on this planet (even on you*) is microbial. Microbes are really the dominant lifeform, and most of everything else is a side-effect. Sure, plants and animals are important - plants helped change the biochemistry of the atmosphere! But we're only a small part of the story.
*fun fact, there're more bacterial cells in/on your body than there are human cells.
One super-sapient and a handful of sapient species *did* result after a few billion years, and there certainly is convergent evolutionary pressure for intelligence. We're a few blips.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of life on this planet (even on you*) is microbial. Microbes are really the dominant lifeform, and most of everything else is a side-effect. Sure, plants and animals are important - plants helped change the biochemistry of the atmosphere! But we're only a small part of the story.
*fun fact, there're more bacterial cells in/on your body than there are human cells.
QUOTE (El_Machinae+Apr 7 2012, 12:29 PM)
One super-sapient and a handful of sapient species *did* result after a few billion years, and there certainly is convergent evolutionary pressure for intelligence. We're a few blips.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of life on this planet (even on you*) is microbial. Microbes are really the dominant lifeform, and most of everything else is a side-effect. Sure, plants and animals are important - plants helped change the biochemistry of the atmosphere! But we're only a small part of the story.
*fun fact, there're more bacterial cells in/on your body than there are human cells.
Humans Carry More Bacterial Cells than Human Ones
In fact 10 times as many! How can this be?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....than-human-ones
Keep in mind that the vast majority of life on this planet (even on you*) is microbial. Microbes are really the dominant lifeform, and most of everything else is a side-effect. Sure, plants and animals are important - plants helped change the biochemistry of the atmosphere! But we're only a small part of the story.
*fun fact, there're more bacterial cells in/on your body than there are human cells.
Humans Carry More Bacterial Cells than Human Ones
In fact 10 times as many! How can this be?
QUOTE
(Despite their vast numbers, bacteria don't take up that much space because bacteria are far smaller than human cells.)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....than-human-ones
ok to wolf,
We have the power to change our adaptations with choice, for animals it occurs without their control. we are the only species this happens to. 2nd you cannot deny that we have morals. (most of us) if natural selection is true... why do we have doctors? shouldn't we just kill of the sick and if theres a baby with complications shouldn't we just kill it anyways because its not as strong as it should be?? and just a random thought if its survival of the fittest isn't the fittest these days the smartest so why are all the chicks going after goodlooking strong stupid guys? should everyone be after the nerds?
And alex i'm glad you noticed that quote i was showing the shallowness of the quote you had that fear of death is the root of all religion. see one sidedness goes both ways.
And maybe bacteria do make up a huge amount of the mass on earth but they do not have a choice in what to do with their numbers they don't have free choice they have dos and don'ts... perhaps that is what sets us apart the most... free choice and thought about those choices.
We have the power to change our adaptations with choice, for animals it occurs without their control. we are the only species this happens to. 2nd you cannot deny that we have morals. (most of us) if natural selection is true... why do we have doctors? shouldn't we just kill of the sick and if theres a baby with complications shouldn't we just kill it anyways because its not as strong as it should be?? and just a random thought if its survival of the fittest isn't the fittest these days the smartest so why are all the chicks going after goodlooking strong stupid guys? should everyone be after the nerds?
And alex i'm glad you noticed that quote i was showing the shallowness of the quote you had that fear of death is the root of all religion. see one sidedness goes both ways.
And maybe bacteria do make up a huge amount of the mass on earth but they do not have a choice in what to do with their numbers they don't have free choice they have dos and don'ts... perhaps that is what sets us apart the most... free choice and thought about those choices.
Fear of death is the root of all religion.
An irrational belief in the supernatural is the stem.
An irrational belief in the supernatural is the stem.
QUOTE (AlexG+Apr 7 2012, 07:10 PM)
Fear of death is the root of all religion.
An irrational belief in the supernatural is the stem.
Desire for life is the reason for religion.
An irrational belief in the supernatural is the stem.
Desire for life is the reason for religion.
QUOTE (AlexG+Apr 7 2012, 07:10 PM)
Fear of death is the root of all religion.
An irrational belief in the supernatural is the stem.
you still are determined to say things you don't understand. have you read the bible or any other REAL spiritual material? if no you are not qualified to discuss reasons for religion in a definite way. a belief in the supernatural is the stem of a wish for betterment. only difference between us is how we seek betterment. and who is to say it is irrational. I can just as easily (and shallowly) state that evolution is irrational.
The geological column is a compilation of picked and chosen geological layers from different places. In reality the layers are shuffled like a deck of cards. explain the cambrian explosion. How the hell are there fully developed complex organisms where according to evolutionists there should only be primitive life forms. explain irreducibly complex structures. if you do not believe in the supernatural then you do not believe in a beginning if you are an evolutionist or not. Thats where quantum physics comes in and if you would rather discuss that i am perfectly open to it. so before you make assumptions about what you don't know. i would encourage you to look at things from another point of view.
An irrational belief in the supernatural is the stem.
you still are determined to say things you don't understand. have you read the bible or any other REAL spiritual material? if no you are not qualified to discuss reasons for religion in a definite way. a belief in the supernatural is the stem of a wish for betterment. only difference between us is how we seek betterment. and who is to say it is irrational. I can just as easily (and shallowly) state that evolution is irrational.
The geological column is a compilation of picked and chosen geological layers from different places. In reality the layers are shuffled like a deck of cards. explain the cambrian explosion. How the hell are there fully developed complex organisms where according to evolutionists there should only be primitive life forms. explain irreducibly complex structures. if you do not believe in the supernatural then you do not believe in a beginning if you are an evolutionist or not. Thats where quantum physics comes in and if you would rather discuss that i am perfectly open to it. so before you make assumptions about what you don't know. i would encourage you to look at things from another point of view.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 02:23 PM)
have you read the bible or any other REAL spiritual material?
I've read a lot of fiction. Including the bable.
Belief in things unseen and unknowable is irrational.
I've read a lot of fiction. Including the bable.
QUOTE
f you do not believe in the supernatural then you do not believe in a beginning
Belief in things unseen and unknowable is irrational.
QUOTE (AlexG+Apr 7 2012, 07:27 PM)
Belief in things unseen and unknowable is irrational.
so your saying evolution is irrational? who observed evolution of species? who observed the big bang? who observed anything. by saying the unseen is irrational your stating that the only existence is yourself. which that actually is a theory and if thats what you really believe then ok. but please correct me if i misunderstood. some more quantum physics there nothing exists until observed. so in that sense it makes perfect logic that there is a god or else everything we do not see would not exist and the entire math of the universe would be completely screwed over.
so your saying evolution is irrational? who observed evolution of species? who observed the big bang? who observed anything. by saying the unseen is irrational your stating that the only existence is yourself. which that actually is a theory and if thats what you really believe then ok. but please correct me if i misunderstood. some more quantum physics there nothing exists until observed. so in that sense it makes perfect logic that there is a god or else everything we do not see would not exist and the entire math of the universe would be completely screwed over.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 03:23 PM)
have you read the bible or any other REAL spiritual material? .
I have read the entire bible.
Most religious people haven't read the bible all the way through. Should they be prevented from discussing religion?
Most religious people haven't read the bible all the way through. Should they be prevented from discussing religion?
a belief in the supernatural is the stem of a wish for betterment.
Possibly. More frequently, however, it's a source of hope for people who need hope.
Yes, you can ACTUALLY do something, or you can pray for god to do something.
The most beneficial part of religion is the community of support, which I will admit can be very helpful.
Yes, you can ACTUALLY do something, or you can pray for god to do something.
The most beneficial part of religion is the community of support, which I will admit can be very helpful.
I can just as easily (and shallowly) state that evolution is irrational.
No, you can't.
That's an outright falsehood. I though you weren't supposed to lie?
How do you shuffle multiple layers of rock across hundreds of square miles? Does god pick up the rock and "shuffle" it?
That's an outright falsehood. I though you weren't supposed to lie?
How do you shuffle multiple layers of rock across hundreds of square miles? Does god pick up the rock and "shuffle" it?
explain the cambrian explosion. How the hell are there fully developed complex organisms where according to evolutionists there should only be primitive life forms.
I don't think you understand what Evolutionary Biology even says about the Cambrian Explosion. The Evolutionary picture of that era was formed by looking at those fossils and recording them.
There are no irreducibly complex structures. Show me one and I'll prove you wrong.
There are no irreducibly complex structures. Show me one and I'll prove you wrong.
if you do not believe in the supernatural then you do not believe in a beginning if you are an evolutionist or not.
This doesn't even make sense as an argument.
So you believe in one branch of science, but not another? Why is that?
So you believe in one branch of science, but not another? Why is that?
so before you make assumptions about what you don't know. i would encourage you to look at things from another point of view.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your picture of Evolution is exactly what the church teaches about Evolution; a straw man. I know about the bible, why don't you read a book on Evolution.
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-...ef=cm_lmf_tit_4
I have read the entire bible.
QUOTE
if no you are not qualified to discuss reasons for religion in a definite way
Most religious people haven't read the bible all the way through. Should they be prevented from discussing religion?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| if no you are not qualified to discuss reasons for religion in a definite way |
Most religious people haven't read the bible all the way through. Should they be prevented from discussing religion?
a belief in the supernatural is the stem of a wish for betterment.
Possibly. More frequently, however, it's a source of hope for people who need hope.
QUOTE
only difference between us is how we seek betterment. and who is to say it is irrational.
Yes, you can ACTUALLY do something, or you can pray for god to do something.
The most beneficial part of religion is the community of support, which I will admit can be very helpful.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| only difference between us is how we seek betterment. and who is to say it is irrational. |
Yes, you can ACTUALLY do something, or you can pray for god to do something.
The most beneficial part of religion is the community of support, which I will admit can be very helpful.
I can just as easily (and shallowly) state that evolution is irrational.
No, you can't.
QUOTE
The geological column is a compilation of picked and chosen geological layers from different places. In reality the layers are shuffled like a deck of cards.
That's an outright falsehood. I though you weren't supposed to lie?
How do you shuffle multiple layers of rock across hundreds of square miles? Does god pick up the rock and "shuffle" it?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The geological column is a compilation of picked and chosen geological layers from different places. In reality the layers are shuffled like a deck of cards. |
That's an outright falsehood. I though you weren't supposed to lie?
How do you shuffle multiple layers of rock across hundreds of square miles? Does god pick up the rock and "shuffle" it?
explain the cambrian explosion. How the hell are there fully developed complex organisms where according to evolutionists there should only be primitive life forms.
I don't think you understand what Evolutionary Biology even says about the Cambrian Explosion. The Evolutionary picture of that era was formed by looking at those fossils and recording them.
QUOTE
explain irreducibly complex structures.
There are no irreducibly complex structures. Show me one and I'll prove you wrong.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| explain irreducibly complex structures. |
There are no irreducibly complex structures. Show me one and I'll prove you wrong.
if you do not believe in the supernatural then you do not believe in a beginning if you are an evolutionist or not.
This doesn't even make sense as an argument.
QUOTE
Thats where quantum physics comes in and if you would rather discuss that i am perfectly open to it.
So you believe in one branch of science, but not another? Why is that?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Thats where quantum physics comes in and if you would rather discuss that i am perfectly open to it. |
So you believe in one branch of science, but not another? Why is that?
so before you make assumptions about what you don't know. i would encourage you to look at things from another point of view.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your picture of Evolution is exactly what the church teaches about Evolution; a straw man. I know about the bible, why don't you read a book on Evolution.
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-...ef=cm_lmf_tit_4
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Apr 7 2012, 07:43 PM)
That's an outright falsehood. I though you weren't supposed to lie?
How do you shuffle multiple layers of rock across hundreds of square miles? Does god pick up the rock and "shuffle" it?
There are no irreducibly complex structures. Show me one and I'll prove you wrong.
So you believe in one branch of science, but not another? Why is that?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your picture of Evolution is exactly what the church teaches about Evolution; a straw man. I know about the bible, why don't you read a book on Evolution.
ok first of all how do you put a quote. talk then quote some more? lol..... ok and...
how do you know its a falsehood?
if you read your bible you would have heard of the flood ( shuffled rock layers) and also how do fossilized trees stick up through hundreds of years of rock layers? lacking limbs and roots?
um before you comment on irreducibly complex structures... know what they are... and the theory. 1st example is the cell. second example just for kicks is a ferris wheel.
i don't get what you mean about one branch of science and not another.
and about a book on evolution i know my share about it... in fact you read in origin of species about the eye. i don't remember the exact words but heres a pretty close quote of what darwin said "The idea that the eye, a most wonderous and complex item, could form by random chance is absurd to the highest degree" he called his own idea absurd. not too much of a point there... just saying lol
and if anyones getting mad or anything i'm not meaning it like that... i kinda find this fun and i like learning about it... and if you have read up on spiritual side then i recall my statement about not talking.
How do you shuffle multiple layers of rock across hundreds of square miles? Does god pick up the rock and "shuffle" it?
There are no irreducibly complex structures. Show me one and I'll prove you wrong.
So you believe in one branch of science, but not another? Why is that?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Your picture of Evolution is exactly what the church teaches about Evolution; a straw man. I know about the bible, why don't you read a book on Evolution.
ok first of all how do you put a quote. talk then quote some more? lol..... ok and...
how do you know its a falsehood?
if you read your bible you would have heard of the flood ( shuffled rock layers) and also how do fossilized trees stick up through hundreds of years of rock layers? lacking limbs and roots?
um before you comment on irreducibly complex structures... know what they are... and the theory. 1st example is the cell. second example just for kicks is a ferris wheel.
i don't get what you mean about one branch of science and not another.
and about a book on evolution i know my share about it... in fact you read in origin of species about the eye. i don't remember the exact words but heres a pretty close quote of what darwin said "The idea that the eye, a most wonderous and complex item, could form by random chance is absurd to the highest degree" he called his own idea absurd. not too much of a point there... just saying lol
and if anyones getting mad or anything i'm not meaning it like that... i kinda find this fun and i like learning about it... and if you have read up on spiritual side then i recall my statement about not talking.
woot i just beat the worlds hardest game
Driven by necessity is hardly random chance .. the eye is vital for survival.
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Apr 7 2012, 08:01 PM)
Driven by necessity is hardly random chance .. the eye is vital for survival.
but it evolves by random chance. the organism doesn't just choose to have an eye. and where does DNA come from for something so complex? we havn't been able to even come up with a way to add DNA In a lab! we can use codes we got from other DNA but original functioning DNA is still beyond us. If you would like to know the odds for even our most basic protein to form by chance it would be like a poker player getting 18 royal flushes in a row. and i'm sorry to disc all the evolutionist math, but the amount of times evolution would fail and die out, fail and die out until that finally succeeded is a number infinitely past the infinite exponent.
And the eye isn't vital to everyone cave dwelling creatures, etc.
but it evolves by random chance. the organism doesn't just choose to have an eye. and where does DNA come from for something so complex? we havn't been able to even come up with a way to add DNA In a lab! we can use codes we got from other DNA but original functioning DNA is still beyond us. If you would like to know the odds for even our most basic protein to form by chance it would be like a poker player getting 18 royal flushes in a row. and i'm sorry to disc all the evolutionist math, but the amount of times evolution would fail and die out, fail and die out until that finally succeeded is a number infinitely past the infinite exponent.
And the eye isn't vital to everyone cave dwelling creatures, etc.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 03:53 PM)
ok first of all how do you put a quote. talk then quote some more? lol..... ok and...
You use the quote button and copy/paste the quoted text between the quote tags.
It's not based on evidence. It's a common argument to counter the conclusions of geological science. Rock layers aren't like leaves. You can't just pick them up and shuffle them around. Picture this: You have 10 carpets stacked on top of each other. Each carpet is 1 square mile. How would you go about shuffling them?
It's not based on evidence. It's a common argument to counter the conclusions of geological science. Rock layers aren't like leaves. You can't just pick them up and shuffle them around. Picture this: You have 10 carpets stacked on top of each other. Each carpet is 1 square mile. How would you go about shuffling them?
if you read your bible you would have heard of the flood ( shuffled rock layers) and also how do fossilized trees stick up through hundreds of years of rock layers? lacking limbs and roots?
There is no geological record of a worldwide flood. There is, however a strong possibility that the flood story was inspired by a real flooding of the Black Sea basin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
There are also colonies of trees that have been growing continuously for around 20,000 years, with an unbroken record of matching tree rings.
This is a great resource for problems with the biblical flood story:
I've never seen evidence of that tree thing. I'd be happy to take a look at it if you could dig it up.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
I know what irreducible complexity "theory" is. I used to believe in it, however, it's complete BS.
The cell is basically a wall with a bunch of components inside. The components range from bacteria that have been absorbed into the human genome (mitochondria) to complex structures that are assembled by DNA. Each component of the cell has an analogue in much simpler cell structures. That's part of what's so complicated about biology. It's a living history book of all the versions that came before. If you watch the development of a fetus, you can pretty much watch the evolutionary path right there. A fetus starts out looking like a fish, actually grows a tail for a while, then re-absorbs the tail. It's really weird to watch.
I know what irreducible complexity "theory" is. I used to believe in it, however, it's complete BS.
The cell is basically a wall with a bunch of components inside. The components range from bacteria that have been absorbed into the human genome (mitochondria) to complex structures that are assembled by DNA. Each component of the cell has an analogue in much simpler cell structures. That's part of what's so complicated about biology. It's a living history book of all the versions that came before. If you watch the development of a fetus, you can pretty much watch the evolutionary path right there. A fetus starts out looking like a fish, actually grows a tail for a while, then re-absorbs the tail. It's really weird to watch.
i don't get what you mean about one branch of science and not another.
You like quantum mechanics, but you don't like evolution?
It's obvious that you don't. The book I linked to is very good, it's written by a Christian, and I know a few Christians who have read it and were very impressed.
It's obvious that you don't. The book I linked to is very good, it's written by a Christian, and I know a few Christians who have read it and were very impressed.
in fact you read in origin of species about the eye. i don't remember the exact words but heres a pretty close quote of what darwin said "The idea that the eye, a most wonderous and complex item, could form by random chance is absurd to the highest degree" he called his own idea absurd. not too much of a point there... just saying lol
The fact that Darwin didn't understand 150 years ago what we know now is not a surprise.
Learning is great, but you need reliable sources of information. "Intelligent Design" is a big business. They publish anti-science propaganda because it sells. Christians buy it because it confirms their beliefs in the bible's infallibility.
You use the quote button and copy/paste the quoted text between the quote tags.
QUOTE
how do you know its a falsehood?
It's not based on evidence. It's a common argument to counter the conclusions of geological science. Rock layers aren't like leaves. You can't just pick them up and shuffle them around. Picture this: You have 10 carpets stacked on top of each other. Each carpet is 1 square mile. How would you go about shuffling them?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| how do you know its a falsehood? |
It's not based on evidence. It's a common argument to counter the conclusions of geological science. Rock layers aren't like leaves. You can't just pick them up and shuffle them around. Picture this: You have 10 carpets stacked on top of each other. Each carpet is 1 square mile. How would you go about shuffling them?
if you read your bible you would have heard of the flood ( shuffled rock layers) and also how do fossilized trees stick up through hundreds of years of rock layers? lacking limbs and roots?
There is no geological record of a worldwide flood. There is, however a strong possibility that the flood story was inspired by a real flooding of the Black Sea basin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
There are also colonies of trees that have been growing continuously for around 20,000 years, with an unbroken record of matching tree rings.
This is a great resource for problems with the biblical flood story:
I've never seen evidence of that tree thing. I'd be happy to take a look at it if you could dig it up.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
QUOTE
um before you comment on irreducibly complex structures... know what they are... and the theory. 1st example is the cell. second example just for kicks is a ferris wheel.
I know what irreducible complexity "theory" is. I used to believe in it, however, it's complete BS.
The cell is basically a wall with a bunch of components inside. The components range from bacteria that have been absorbed into the human genome (mitochondria) to complex structures that are assembled by DNA. Each component of the cell has an analogue in much simpler cell structures. That's part of what's so complicated about biology. It's a living history book of all the versions that came before. If you watch the development of a fetus, you can pretty much watch the evolutionary path right there. A fetus starts out looking like a fish, actually grows a tail for a while, then re-absorbs the tail. It's really weird to watch.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| um before you comment on irreducibly complex structures... know what they are... and the theory. 1st example is the cell. second example just for kicks is a ferris wheel. |
I know what irreducible complexity "theory" is. I used to believe in it, however, it's complete BS.
The cell is basically a wall with a bunch of components inside. The components range from bacteria that have been absorbed into the human genome (mitochondria) to complex structures that are assembled by DNA. Each component of the cell has an analogue in much simpler cell structures. That's part of what's so complicated about biology. It's a living history book of all the versions that came before. If you watch the development of a fetus, you can pretty much watch the evolutionary path right there. A fetus starts out looking like a fish, actually grows a tail for a while, then re-absorbs the tail. It's really weird to watch.
i don't get what you mean about one branch of science and not another.
You like quantum mechanics, but you don't like evolution?
QUOTE
and about a book on evolution i know my share about it...
It's obvious that you don't. The book I linked to is very good, it's written by a Christian, and I know a few Christians who have read it and were very impressed.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| and about a book on evolution i know my share about it... |
It's obvious that you don't. The book I linked to is very good, it's written by a Christian, and I know a few Christians who have read it and were very impressed.
in fact you read in origin of species about the eye. i don't remember the exact words but heres a pretty close quote of what darwin said "The idea that the eye, a most wonderous and complex item, could form by random chance is absurd to the highest degree" he called his own idea absurd. not too much of a point there... just saying lol
The fact that Darwin didn't understand 150 years ago what we know now is not a surprise.
QUOTE
and if anyones getting mad or anything i'm not meaning it like that... i kinda find this fun and i like learning about it... and if you have read up on spiritual side then i recall my statement about not talking.
Learning is great, but you need reliable sources of information. "Intelligent Design" is a big business. They publish anti-science propaganda because it sells. Christians buy it because it confirms their beliefs in the bible's infallibility.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 08:12 PM)
and i'm sorry to disc all the evolutionist math, but the amount of times evolution would fail and die out, fail and die out until that finally succeeded is a number infinitely past the infinite exponent.
oh and here i wasn't just talking about that protein. the infinite part was referring to like a functioning organism
oh and here i wasn't just talking about that protein. the infinite part was referring to like a functioning organism
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 04:12 PM)
but it evolves by random chance. the organism doesn't just choose to have an eye.
Life is unique in the universe because it is self-improving. The eye started out as a cluster of light-sensitive cells, and developed ways to focus that light and form a clear picture of an animal's surroundings.
DNA is complex, but even more than that, it is chaos. DNA is a template for proteins that can replicate itself. That's the most basic overview of DNA. It is believed that the first living thing was an RNA molecule (the precursor to DNA). It was a simple string of Amino Acids that replicated by forming a mirror image of itself. Over time, that string grew in length, and was able to create not only copies of itself, but fragmented copies as well. Those fragmented copies are proteins. Some proteins are more useful than others, DNA strands that made useful proteins were more likely to make more copies, and so Evolution began.
DNA is complex, but even more than that, it is chaos. DNA is a template for proteins that can replicate itself. That's the most basic overview of DNA. It is believed that the first living thing was an RNA molecule (the precursor to DNA). It was a simple string of Amino Acids that replicated by forming a mirror image of itself. Over time, that string grew in length, and was able to create not only copies of itself, but fragmented copies as well. Those fragmented copies are proteins. Some proteins are more useful than others, DNA strands that made useful proteins were more likely to make more copies, and so Evolution began.
If you would like to know the odds for even our most basic protein to form by chance it would be like a poker player getting 18 royal flushes in a row.
By the time proteins were involved, Evolution was well underway. Biodiversity makes unlikely things likely.
The only thing that life needed to get started was that first RNA molecule. Earth had millions of years to come up with that before it showed up.
I won't deny that sapience is amazing. There're a handful of sapient species and humans are clearly the smartest, and some of them were rather convergent in their evolution. Does our intelligence make us special? I certainly think so! We get to engage in long-term thinking like almost no other animals.
What is sapience?
Definition for sapience:
Web definitions:
wisdom: ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Life is unique in the universe because it is self-improving. The eye started out as a cluster of light-sensitive cells, and developed ways to focus that light and form a clear picture of an animal's surroundings.
QUOTE
and where does DNA come from for something so complex? we havn't been able to even come up with a way to add DNA In a lab! we can use codes we got from other DNA but original functioning DNA is still beyond us.
DNA is complex, but even more than that, it is chaos. DNA is a template for proteins that can replicate itself. That's the most basic overview of DNA. It is believed that the first living thing was an RNA molecule (the precursor to DNA). It was a simple string of Amino Acids that replicated by forming a mirror image of itself. Over time, that string grew in length, and was able to create not only copies of itself, but fragmented copies as well. Those fragmented copies are proteins. Some proteins are more useful than others, DNA strands that made useful proteins were more likely to make more copies, and so Evolution began.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| and where does DNA come from for something so complex? we havn't been able to even come up with a way to add DNA In a lab! we can use codes we got from other DNA but original functioning DNA is still beyond us. |
DNA is complex, but even more than that, it is chaos. DNA is a template for proteins that can replicate itself. That's the most basic overview of DNA. It is believed that the first living thing was an RNA molecule (the precursor to DNA). It was a simple string of Amino Acids that replicated by forming a mirror image of itself. Over time, that string grew in length, and was able to create not only copies of itself, but fragmented copies as well. Those fragmented copies are proteins. Some proteins are more useful than others, DNA strands that made useful proteins were more likely to make more copies, and so Evolution began.
If you would like to know the odds for even our most basic protein to form by chance it would be like a poker player getting 18 royal flushes in a row.
By the time proteins were involved, Evolution was well underway. Biodiversity makes unlikely things likely.
QUOTE
and i'm sorry to disc all the evolutionist math, but the amount of times evolution would fail and die out, fail and die out until that finally succeeded is a number infinitely past the infinite exponent.
The only thing that life needed to get started was that first RNA molecule. Earth had millions of years to come up with that before it showed up.
1st of all according to scientific theory (original science never concludes anything) pisses me off when people say something proves something. and as for carpet mile long getting shuffled not that hard to imagine when 100 mile rocks are shiftin up and down and seperating crashing and mile long volcanoes are shooting insanely high pressured stuff.
If geological column is shuffled then that would be evidence for flood, cambrian explosion is for flood.
ok and about trees growing note they were rootless and limbless happens when volcanoes burn off outside and when left in water, (from flood) they would sink vertically and be stuck in the ash mud a bottom keeping them upright.
and about cell and irreducibly yadedada. without a single one of those components the cell structure would fail... so i ask how could evolution add one at a time? one would not function and it would die... add again. it would still not function.
and i like quantum mechanics, and i like talking about evolution. I mean i'll admit my bias i don't believe so much in macro evolution.
and i'll check out that book you linked to sometime... if i have time. oh and ya that was the point of complex structures it made since in darwins time because they thought a cell was just a mysterious black box. just one thing... Darwin stated himself that if it were more and something like irreducibly complex structures came up. it would put a lot of problems in his theory.
and as far as anti science crap. ya i admit its bad... but its going on with both sides. no matter what we believe in i'm sure we can both conclude without bias that science is not what it used to be its all about proving others wrong and asserting ourselves. not seeking betterment and knowledge. scientific method is screwed over... wer just not as open as we used to be. I admit to certain christian scientists putting out bull. but its not just the christians.
If geological column is shuffled then that would be evidence for flood, cambrian explosion is for flood.
ok and about trees growing note they were rootless and limbless happens when volcanoes burn off outside and when left in water, (from flood) they would sink vertically and be stuck in the ash mud a bottom keeping them upright.
and about cell and irreducibly yadedada. without a single one of those components the cell structure would fail... so i ask how could evolution add one at a time? one would not function and it would die... add again. it would still not function.
and i like quantum mechanics, and i like talking about evolution. I mean i'll admit my bias i don't believe so much in macro evolution.
and i'll check out that book you linked to sometime... if i have time. oh and ya that was the point of complex structures it made since in darwins time because they thought a cell was just a mysterious black box. just one thing... Darwin stated himself that if it were more and something like irreducibly complex structures came up. it would put a lot of problems in his theory.
and as far as anti science crap. ya i admit its bad... but its going on with both sides. no matter what we believe in i'm sure we can both conclude without bias that science is not what it used to be its all about proving others wrong and asserting ourselves. not seeking betterment and knowledge. scientific method is screwed over... wer just not as open as we used to be. I admit to certain christian scientists putting out bull. but its not just the christians.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Apr 7 2012, 08:24 PM)
The only thing that life needed to get started was that first RNA molecule. Earth had millions of years to come up with that before it showed up.
i only need to point out that that one little rna would be destroyed not long after coming into existence in the void. or hunk of rock, or whatever else. it has nothing to make copies of itself on. and nothing to adapt to.
i only need to point out that that one little rna would be destroyed not long after coming into existence in the void. or hunk of rock, or whatever else. it has nothing to make copies of itself on. and nothing to adapt to.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 06:16 PM)
And maybe bacteria do make up a huge amount of the mass on earth but they do not have a choice in what to do with their numbers they don't have free choice they have dos and don'ts... perhaps that is what sets us apart the most... free choice and thought about those choices.
My point is that we shouldn't forget about the bacteria. Most people's conception of the Theory of Evolution consists of thinking about inter-animal relationships. If your conception of the ToE doesn't incorporate flowers and bacteria, then it's an incomplete understanding (the Theory itself obviously doesn't lack, it's just that most people don't think of it this way).
I won't deny that sapience is amazing. There're a handful of sapient species and humans are clearly the smartest, and some of them were rather convergent in their evolution. Does our intelligence make us special? I certainly think so! We get to engage in long-term thinking like almost no other animals.
My point is that we shouldn't forget about the bacteria. Most people's conception of the Theory of Evolution consists of thinking about inter-animal relationships. If your conception of the ToE doesn't incorporate flowers and bacteria, then it's an incomplete understanding (the Theory itself obviously doesn't lack, it's just that most people don't think of it this way).
I won't deny that sapience is amazing. There're a handful of sapient species and humans are clearly the smartest, and some of them were rather convergent in their evolution. Does our intelligence make us special? I certainly think so! We get to engage in long-term thinking like almost no other animals.
ok machinimae, thats a valid point. but it sounds like you would agree that there is a higher mind, power, or understanding than us correct? somethin we don't understand... like what does a grasshopper think of us as? not a bunch of cells and complex machinery no it doesn't understand that. likewise what if theres something above us that we just cannot understand. interesting thought eh? grasshopper theory
QUOTE (El_Machinae+Apr 7 2012, 08:40 PM)
I won't deny that sapience is amazing. There're a handful of sapient species and humans are clearly the smartest, and some of them were rather convergent in their evolution. Does our intelligence make us special? I certainly think so! We get to engage in long-term thinking like almost no other animals.
What is sapience?
Definition for sapience:
Web definitions:
wisdom: ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Robbity was there an argument or point there, or were you adding information? oh and do any of you know of a place where this conversation could proceed faster, cuz i get kinda tired of waiting around and stuff, and it would probably be more effective
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 04:30 PM)
1st of all according to scientific theory (original science never concludes anything) pisses me off when people say something proves something.
Uhhh, ok?
You're not following the analogy. Rock layers aren't things you can blow up into the air. These are layers of solid rock. They don't flip unless you grab an edge and fold all the layers over. This is called an inversion. The layers can flip all together, but they don't shuffle.
You're not following the analogy. Rock layers aren't things you can blow up into the air. These are layers of solid rock. They don't flip unless you grab an edge and fold all the layers over. This is called an inversion. The layers can flip all together, but they don't shuffle.
If geological column is shuffled then that would be evidence for flood, cambrian explosion is for flood.
The Cambrian explosion took place over hundreds of millions of years. It just meant that the diversity of life expanded to a huge degree. All the fossils found in Cambrian deposits are from long-extinct species. Those fossils barely even resemble modern species, and they were almost all sea-creatures. There's nothing connecting Cambrian fossils to the biblical flood expect for the hopes and dreams of creationists.
I still don't see a reference to this. Do you have one, or is this anecdotal?
I still don't see a reference to this. Do you have one, or is this anecdotal?
and about cell and irreducibly yadedada. without a single one of those components the cell structure would fail...
Not true at all. Without a few of those, the human body would fail, but cells can survive as long as they can take in energy in the form of glucose and convert that to energy. Just look at prokaryotic cells and check out how simple they are. No nucleus, just some ribosomes, DNA, plasmids and the cell wall.
Human cells support the human organism, not just themselves. Many of those functions are not necessary for the cell to function.
Human cells support the human organism, not just themselves. Many of those functions are not necessary for the cell to function.
and i like quantum mechanics, and i like talking about evolution. I mean i'll admit my bias i don't believe so much in macro evolution.
There is no difference between micro and macro evolution. What happens when you add 100 pennies together? Small changes add up to big changes.
Well, it's good that there aren't any irreducibly complex structures, isn't it?
Well, it's good that there aren't any irreducibly complex structures, isn't it?
and as far as anti science crap. ya i admit its bad... but its going on with both sides. no matter what we believe in i'm sure we can both conclude without bias that science is not what it used to be its all about proving others wrong and asserting ourselves. not seeking betterment and knowledge. scientific method is screwed over... wer just not as open as we used to be. I admit to certain christian scientists putting out bull. but its not just the christians.
Science has problems, but none of them have to do with Evolution.
What motive does a scientist have to cover up evidence that would disprove Evolution? That kind of evidence would make their career. Shaking up the scientific institution IS the driving motive in science. A conspiracy to hide the truth is laughable.
Uhhh, ok?
QUOTE
and as for carpet mile long getting shuffled not that hard to imagine when 100 mile rocks are shiftin up and down and seperating crashing and mile long volcanoes are shooting insanely high pressured stuff.
You're not following the analogy. Rock layers aren't things you can blow up into the air. These are layers of solid rock. They don't flip unless you grab an edge and fold all the layers over. This is called an inversion. The layers can flip all together, but they don't shuffle.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| and as for carpet mile long getting shuffled not that hard to imagine when 100 mile rocks are shiftin up and down and seperating crashing and mile long volcanoes are shooting insanely high pressured stuff. |
You're not following the analogy. Rock layers aren't things you can blow up into the air. These are layers of solid rock. They don't flip unless you grab an edge and fold all the layers over. This is called an inversion. The layers can flip all together, but they don't shuffle.
If geological column is shuffled then that would be evidence for flood, cambrian explosion is for flood.
The Cambrian explosion took place over hundreds of millions of years. It just meant that the diversity of life expanded to a huge degree. All the fossils found in Cambrian deposits are from long-extinct species. Those fossils barely even resemble modern species, and they were almost all sea-creatures. There's nothing connecting Cambrian fossils to the biblical flood expect for the hopes and dreams of creationists.
QUOTE
ok and about trees growing note they were rootless and limbless happens when volcanoes burn off outside and when left in water, (from flood) they would sink vertically and be stuck in the ash mud a bottom keeping them upright.
I still don't see a reference to this. Do you have one, or is this anecdotal?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| ok and about trees growing note they were rootless and limbless happens when volcanoes burn off outside and when left in water, (from flood) they would sink vertically and be stuck in the ash mud a bottom keeping them upright. |
I still don't see a reference to this. Do you have one, or is this anecdotal?
and about cell and irreducibly yadedada. without a single one of those components the cell structure would fail...
Not true at all. Without a few of those, the human body would fail, but cells can survive as long as they can take in energy in the form of glucose and convert that to energy. Just look at prokaryotic cells and check out how simple they are. No nucleus, just some ribosomes, DNA, plasmids and the cell wall.
QUOTE
so i ask how could evolution add one at a time? one would not function and it would die... add again. it would still not function.
Human cells support the human organism, not just themselves. Many of those functions are not necessary for the cell to function.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| so i ask how could evolution add one at a time? one would not function and it would die... add again. it would still not function. |
Human cells support the human organism, not just themselves. Many of those functions are not necessary for the cell to function.
and i like quantum mechanics, and i like talking about evolution. I mean i'll admit my bias i don't believe so much in macro evolution.
There is no difference between micro and macro evolution. What happens when you add 100 pennies together? Small changes add up to big changes.
QUOTE
oh and ya that was the point of complex structures it made since in darwins time because they thought a cell was just a mysterious black box. just one thing... Darwin stated himself that if it were more and something like irreducibly complex structures came up. it would put a lot of problems in his theory.
Well, it's good that there aren't any irreducibly complex structures, isn't it?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| oh and ya that was the point of complex structures it made since in darwins time because they thought a cell was just a mysterious black box. just one thing... Darwin stated himself that if it were more and something like irreducibly complex structures came up. it would put a lot of problems in his theory. |
Well, it's good that there aren't any irreducibly complex structures, isn't it?
and as far as anti science crap. ya i admit its bad... but its going on with both sides. no matter what we believe in i'm sure we can both conclude without bias that science is not what it used to be its all about proving others wrong and asserting ourselves. not seeking betterment and knowledge. scientific method is screwed over... wer just not as open as we used to be. I admit to certain christian scientists putting out bull. but its not just the christians.
Science has problems, but none of them have to do with Evolution.
What motive does a scientist have to cover up evidence that would disprove Evolution? That kind of evidence would make their career. Shaking up the scientific institution IS the driving motive in science. A conspiracy to hide the truth is laughable.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 02:35 PM)
so your saying evolution is irrational? who observed evolution of species? who observed the big bang? who observed anything. by saying the unseen is irrational your stating that the only existence is yourself. which that actually is a theory and if thats what you really believe then ok. but please correct me if i misunderstood. some more quantum physics there nothing exists until observed. so in that sense it makes perfect logic that there is a god or else everything we do not see would not exist and the entire math of the universe would be completely screwed over.
You're leaving out 'unkowable'. We have evidence of evolution. We have evidence and observation and predictions of the BB (i.e. red-shift, exact prediction of spectrum of black body radiation, CMB, ratio of primordial elements).
We have no evidence for the Big Magician In The Sky.
No, you misunderstand, in that statement, a couple of things. 'Observed' does not mean seen by some sentient being. It means interacting with any other quantum element. That's what it takes to collapse the wave. And it's not that it doesn't exist until that interaction. It just has no fixed point in space where it exists. It's a probability of existing in particlular location, which doesn't fix until the wave function collapses.
You're leaving out 'unkowable'. We have evidence of evolution. We have evidence and observation and predictions of the BB (i.e. red-shift, exact prediction of spectrum of black body radiation, CMB, ratio of primordial elements).
We have no evidence for the Big Magician In The Sky.
QUOTE
some more quantum physics there nothing exists until observed
No, you misunderstand, in that statement, a couple of things. 'Observed' does not mean seen by some sentient being. It means interacting with any other quantum element. That's what it takes to collapse the wave. And it's not that it doesn't exist until that interaction. It just has no fixed point in space where it exists. It's a probability of existing in particlular location, which doesn't fix until the wave function collapses.
ok i get what your saying about flipping rocks the point is that they weren't already there. they were created during the flood being laid down while it was going on. .
and your point about prokaryotic cells.... my point still remains without a single one of the things they do have if there wer 2... if one of those 2 were takin away it would fail.
yes there is a difference between micro and macro... micro is changes within genetic code, macro is addition to genetic code. one difference one is observed possible the other one has not been. which once again according to scientific theory. should by itself shut out evolution until it is observed and tested.
do you always assault things so narrow mindedly? like your view is the only one worthy of anything. that in itself could be thought of as a motive. stubborness. another motive. when you've been working on something your whole life and one thing pops up that goes against it, would you throw out everything and make a new explanation? especially one built up over hundreds of years? no you would make an excuse.
and just for the sake of an age old question where did the first thing come into existence? before energy, before anything. how do you explain that without believing in a higher power?
and your point about prokaryotic cells.... my point still remains without a single one of the things they do have if there wer 2... if one of those 2 were takin away it would fail.
yes there is a difference between micro and macro... micro is changes within genetic code, macro is addition to genetic code. one difference one is observed possible the other one has not been. which once again according to scientific theory. should by itself shut out evolution until it is observed and tested.
do you always assault things so narrow mindedly? like your view is the only one worthy of anything. that in itself could be thought of as a motive. stubborness. another motive. when you've been working on something your whole life and one thing pops up that goes against it, would you throw out everything and make a new explanation? especially one built up over hundreds of years? no you would make an excuse.
and just for the sake of an age old question where did the first thing come into existence? before energy, before anything. how do you explain that without believing in a higher power?
Alex, mind if i'm narrowminded now but this conversation is getting nowhere and i'm getting bored plus when i go back to school i won't have time to keep up with this so, here's a few narrow, blunt things.
False, you don't have evidence for evolution because evidence in science cannot have inconsistencies or arguments.
Second, big magician in the sky is about as shallow as my last statement. 1st of all within the sky it would make more since to say in another dimension where our laws of physics can be manipulated or dealt with in a way we don't understand.
and wrong again, quantum mechanics does not work that way. if you heard of basic relativity no matter what math you come up with you cannot predict something until it has already been observed and not only observed its location but its velocity. which is an ontological quandary.
And unless something real and solid comes up here i think i'm about done.
Sorry for my narrowness and shallowness in this post, kinda goes against my name eh? lol. oh and i know you don't believe with this. but a little something from the bible and i paraphrase. do not keep company and argue with fools, for they are wise in their own eyes and their shallowness they believe to be the heights of knowledge...
and to you flyingbuttress... lol nice name. i liked talking with you cause you had some pretty valid points. it was interesting. and whitewolf i like how you weren't narrowminded. anyways goodluck in the pursuit of knowledge, don't throw out things you don't like, love the truth, and do all to the glory of something greater than yourself, and stay open =D I love you!!!!!!!
False, you don't have evidence for evolution because evidence in science cannot have inconsistencies or arguments.
Second, big magician in the sky is about as shallow as my last statement. 1st of all within the sky it would make more since to say in another dimension where our laws of physics can be manipulated or dealt with in a way we don't understand.
and wrong again, quantum mechanics does not work that way. if you heard of basic relativity no matter what math you come up with you cannot predict something until it has already been observed and not only observed its location but its velocity. which is an ontological quandary.
And unless something real and solid comes up here i think i'm about done.
Sorry for my narrowness and shallowness in this post, kinda goes against my name eh? lol. oh and i know you don't believe with this. but a little something from the bible and i paraphrase. do not keep company and argue with fools, for they are wise in their own eyes and their shallowness they believe to be the heights of knowledge...
and to you flyingbuttress... lol nice name. i liked talking with you cause you had some pretty valid points. it was interesting. and whitewolf i like how you weren't narrowminded. anyways goodluck in the pursuit of knowledge, don't throw out things you don't like, love the truth, and do all to the glory of something greater than yourself, and stay open =D I love you!!!!!!!
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 05:14 PM)
ok i get what your saying about flipping rocks the point is that they weren't already there. they were created during the flood being laid down while it was going on.
They weren't. Rocks take millions of years to harden from sediment to rock. You don't get to fast-forward this process out of convenience. The only reason you're even saying this is because some creationist nut said this to you first. These people are paid to lie.
This isn't accurate. If you want to make claims about Biology, study Biology. You have a lot to learn about the way the world works.
This isn't accurate. If you want to make claims about Biology, study Biology. You have a lot to learn about the way the world works.
yes there is a difference between micro and macro... micro is changes within genetic code, macro is addition to genetic code. one difference one is observed possible the other one has not been. which once again according to scientific theory. should by itself shut out evolution until it is observed and tested.
Again, not even close to accurate. Large scale changes do not require new DNA code to occur. Speciation can occur just by switching different genes on and off. Some mutations can cause the length of the DNA molecule to expand.
And again, you're just reciting ID propaganda. I've heard all these arguments before, and none of them have any scientific basis.
I think you would agree that the truth is worth fighting for?
I think you would agree that the truth is worth fighting for?
when you've been working on something your whole life and one thing pops up that goes against it, would you throw out everything and make a new explanation? especially one built up over hundreds of years?
Yes, that is how science works. That is the primary motivator of scientific discovery. Every single scientist would love to be able to throw out centuries of bad theory with contradictory evidence.
I don't get how believing in a higher power solves this question. Where did god come from?
They weren't. Rocks take millions of years to harden from sediment to rock. You don't get to fast-forward this process out of convenience. The only reason you're even saying this is because some creationist nut said this to you first. These people are paid to lie.
QUOTE
and your point about prokaryotic cells.... my point still remains without a single one of the things they do have if there wer 2... if one of those 2 were takin away it would fail.
This isn't accurate. If you want to make claims about Biology, study Biology. You have a lot to learn about the way the world works.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| and your point about prokaryotic cells.... my point still remains without a single one of the things they do have if there wer 2... if one of those 2 were takin away it would fail. |
This isn't accurate. If you want to make claims about Biology, study Biology. You have a lot to learn about the way the world works.
yes there is a difference between micro and macro... micro is changes within genetic code, macro is addition to genetic code. one difference one is observed possible the other one has not been. which once again according to scientific theory. should by itself shut out evolution until it is observed and tested.
Again, not even close to accurate. Large scale changes do not require new DNA code to occur. Speciation can occur just by switching different genes on and off. Some mutations can cause the length of the DNA molecule to expand.
And again, you're just reciting ID propaganda. I've heard all these arguments before, and none of them have any scientific basis.
QUOTE
do you always assault things so narrow mindedly? like your view is the only one worthy of anything. that in itself could be thought of as a motive. stubborness. another motive.
I think you would agree that the truth is worth fighting for?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| do you always assault things so narrow mindedly? like your view is the only one worthy of anything. that in itself could be thought of as a motive. stubborness. another motive. |
I think you would agree that the truth is worth fighting for?
when you've been working on something your whole life and one thing pops up that goes against it, would you throw out everything and make a new explanation? especially one built up over hundreds of years?
Yes, that is how science works. That is the primary motivator of scientific discovery. Every single scientist would love to be able to throw out centuries of bad theory with contradictory evidence.
QUOTE
and just for the sake of an age old question where did the first thing come into existence? before energy, before anything. how do you explain that without believing in a higher power?
I don't get how believing in a higher power solves this question. Where did god come from?
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Apr 7 2012, 08:52 PM)
What is sapience?
Definition for sapience:
Web definitions:
wisdom: ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
We tend to think of it as a high-level type of intelligence. The ability to not only have an internal mind (many mammals have that!), but also the ability to think about yourself as an individual. Humans, chimps, elephants, dolphins and maybe a few other species have this level of abstract thought.
Definition for sapience:
Web definitions:
wisdom: ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
We tend to think of it as a high-level type of intelligence. The ability to not only have an internal mind (many mammals have that!), but also the ability to think about yourself as an individual. Humans, chimps, elephants, dolphins and maybe a few other species have this level of abstract thought.
Hey StayOpen42
I don't have a problem with religion it has served it's purpose.
I'm sure it has gotten u through hard times.
Originally called shamanism or earth worship. People would go to the shaman for guidance in such things as sickness mental health and moral values. People also confided in the shamon because they thought that if they respected each-other the earth and there fellow creatures that they and there children would enjoy long and healthy lives.
Today's Realigan is the remnants of this early believe. Realign has changed somewhat Now nature is considered to be evil and those that practice nature religion are now Satan worshipers.
Science and physics is the study of nature and could be seen by god followers as a type of nature fallowing.
And I don't consider my self a Geek and have no trouble attracting beautiful woman.
I don't have a problem with religion it has served it's purpose.
I'm sure it has gotten u through hard times.
Originally called shamanism or earth worship. People would go to the shaman for guidance in such things as sickness mental health and moral values. People also confided in the shamon because they thought that if they respected each-other the earth and there fellow creatures that they and there children would enjoy long and healthy lives.
Today's Realigan is the remnants of this early believe. Realign has changed somewhat Now nature is considered to be evil and those that practice nature religion are now Satan worshipers.
Science and physics is the study of nature and could be seen by god followers as a type of nature fallowing.
And I don't consider my self a Geek and have no trouble attracting beautiful woman.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...w+4&version=NIV
See what it says there "Tell these stones to become bread".
What does that mean to you?
Who has ever told stones to "become bread"? But that is what has happened with the abiogenesis. The bread being made by humans represents the totality of life on Earth. Evolution starting from the stones and finally becoming bread, the sustenance for daily human life.
So part of the temptation was the challenge to Jesus of "Replying to Evolution Vs. Creation" thread.
Could Jesus have done it? Could Jesus have performed what the God of Natural Causes had already done? (Only takes 4 billion plus years to achieve it.)
QUOTE
Matthew 4
Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
See what it says there "Tell these stones to become bread".
What does that mean to you?
Who has ever told stones to "become bread"? But that is what has happened with the abiogenesis. The bread being made by humans represents the totality of life on Earth. Evolution starting from the stones and finally becoming bread, the sustenance for daily human life.
So part of the temptation was the challenge to Jesus of "Replying to Evolution Vs. Creation" thread.
Could Jesus have done it? Could Jesus have performed what the God of Natural Causes had already done? (Only takes 4 billion plus years to achieve it.)
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Apr 8 2012, 09:04 AM)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...w+4&version=NIV
See what it says there "Tell these stones to become bread".
What does that mean to you?
Who has ever told stones to "become bread"? But that is what has happened with the abiogenesis. The bread being made by humans represents the totality of life on Earth. Evolution starting from the stones and finally becoming bread, the sustenance for daily human life.
So part of the temptation was the challenge to Jesus of "Replying to Evolution Vs. Creation" thread.
Could Jesus have done it? Could Jesus have performed what the God of Natural Causes had already done? (Only takes 4 billion plus years to achieve it.)
Good morning Rob
I don't quite get what your saying
See what it says there "Tell these stones to become bread".
What does that mean to you?
Who has ever told stones to "become bread"? But that is what has happened with the abiogenesis. The bread being made by humans represents the totality of life on Earth. Evolution starting from the stones and finally becoming bread, the sustenance for daily human life.
So part of the temptation was the challenge to Jesus of "Replying to Evolution Vs. Creation" thread.
Could Jesus have done it? Could Jesus have performed what the God of Natural Causes had already done? (Only takes 4 billion plus years to achieve it.)
Good morning Rob
I don't quite get what your saying
I was saying whoever organized life had to turn stones into bread.
So if the subject of the thread is evolution or creation, have you thought that if the God that did this, did it by a series of natural causes who can tell the difference between creation and evolution?
"Speak to the stones and turn them into bread". The only one who can put up that challenge is the one who has already done it.
So if the subject of the thread is evolution or creation, have you thought that if the God that did this, did it by a series of natural causes who can tell the difference between creation and evolution?
"Speak to the stones and turn them into bread". The only one who can put up that challenge is the one who has already done it.
Ok I get you now
I'm a little slow lol
This subject seems to be a touchy one with some people
I find religion interesting from a anthropological point of view.
Personally I have absolutely no use for the church as I am a victim of what they did to the native people in north America!
And I'm not evan Native but just an unforeseen casualty!
I'm a little slow lol
This subject seems to be a touchy one with some people
I find religion interesting from a anthropological point of view.
Personally I have absolutely no use for the church as I am a victim of what they did to the native people in north America!
And I'm not evan Native but just an unforeseen casualty!
QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Apr 8 2012, 01:56 PM)
Ok I get you now
I'm a little slow lol
This subject seems to be a touchy one with some people
I find religion interesting from a anthropological point of view.
Personally I have absolutely no use for the church as I am a victim of what they did to the native people in north America!
And I'm not evan Native but just an unforeseen casualty!
Now that is interesting ? Can you expand on that ?
What do you think of the Prophecy that says " All the leaders of the earth will come to " The Great House of Mica for arrangements, or " There will be a Great House in the Big Sky"
That stuff freaked Me out when I first read it . That is considering my own God Delusions that date way before I ever read that . Course I want to be special so I can see my own motivation in reading more into it as how it relates to my great name
I'm a little slow lol
This subject seems to be a touchy one with some people
I find religion interesting from a anthropological point of view.
Personally I have absolutely no use for the church as I am a victim of what they did to the native people in north America!
And I'm not evan Native but just an unforeseen casualty!
Now that is interesting ? Can you expand on that ?
What do you think of the Prophecy that says " All the leaders of the earth will come to " The Great House of Mica for arrangements, or " There will be a Great House in the Big Sky"
That stuff freaked Me out when I first read it . That is considering my own God Delusions that date way before I ever read that . Course I want to be special so I can see my own motivation in reading more into it as how it relates to my great name
Well if you have God delusions, turn these stones into bread. Either that or an Everlasting Gob-stopper.
QUOTE (Mekigal+Apr 8 2012, 05:21 PM)
Now that is interesting ? Can you expand on that ?
What do you think of the Prophecy that says " All the leaders of the earth will come to " The Great House of Mica for arrangements, or " There will be a Great House in the Big Sky"
That stuff freaked Me out when I first read it . That is considering my own God Delusions that date way before I ever read that . Course I want to be special so I can see my own motivation in reading more into it as how it relates to my great name
If you actually live in the east indies you probibly know there are no longer any native people living there. Another place that native Amaricans were exterminated is Newfoundland of the east coast of Canada.
Native culture is all but nonexistent thanks to the Church.
I have never heard of any profacy about leaders in the sky
Any cultural practices have been done in secret because it was against the law for natives to practice there religion until recently.
Most of the renaming culture comes from the western part of north Amarica witch was not the same as the culture in the east. In Europe there are many cultures and it was the same in north Amarica.
It was common practice for the government to take native children and put them in residential schools that were run by the church.
That's how I was afected I'm not native but was raised by a native stepfather that had spent time in residential school. He described his experience as Hell at the hands of the priests. And he made my life as a child Hell in turn. My ex wife is also native and her story is prety much the same as mine. And that's mostly the reason she is now my ex because of the anguish native people live with.
There are some good books out there about native culture such as Wallace Black Elk and Charlos Castinada.
What do you think of the Prophecy that says " All the leaders of the earth will come to " The Great House of Mica for arrangements, or " There will be a Great House in the Big Sky"
That stuff freaked Me out when I first read it . That is considering my own God Delusions that date way before I ever read that . Course I want to be special so I can see my own motivation in reading more into it as how it relates to my great name
If you actually live in the east indies you probibly know there are no longer any native people living there. Another place that native Amaricans were exterminated is Newfoundland of the east coast of Canada.
Native culture is all but nonexistent thanks to the Church.
I have never heard of any profacy about leaders in the sky
Any cultural practices have been done in secret because it was against the law for natives to practice there religion until recently.
Most of the renaming culture comes from the western part of north Amarica witch was not the same as the culture in the east. In Europe there are many cultures and it was the same in north Amarica.
It was common practice for the government to take native children and put them in residential schools that were run by the church.
That's how I was afected I'm not native but was raised by a native stepfather that had spent time in residential school. He described his experience as Hell at the hands of the priests. And he made my life as a child Hell in turn. My ex wife is also native and her story is prety much the same as mine. And that's mostly the reason she is now my ex because of the anguish native people live with.
There are some good books out there about native culture such as Wallace Black Elk and Charlos Castinada.
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Apr 8 2012, 12:57 PM)
I was saying whoever organized life had to turn stones into bread.
So if the subject of the thread is evolution or creation, have you thought that if the God that did this, did it by a series of natural causes who can tell the difference between creation and evolution?
"Speak to the stones and turn them into bread". The only one who can put up that challenge is the one who has already done it.
Honestly, I think that's kinda reaching. That said, it's cute and poetic. I've never seen that spin before.
So if the subject of the thread is evolution or creation, have you thought that if the God that did this, did it by a series of natural causes who can tell the difference between creation and evolution?
"Speak to the stones and turn them into bread". The only one who can put up that challenge is the one who has already done it.
Honestly, I think that's kinda reaching. That said, it's cute and poetic. I've never seen that spin before.
QUOTE (StayOpen42+Apr 7 2012, 01:04 AM)
And I don't have a problem evolutionists... unless they are shallowminded. who's to say something made God. if you believe him to be a superior being then it makes since that he wasn't made because that is what we would expect in our lower mindset. (piece of the grasshopper theory) But i would appreciate it if when you post something to actually know what your talking about. not trying to offend, but its easy to argue for something when you act like the opposing thought doesn't matter or exist.
What are you talking about ? What opposing though ? Can you be specific?
Are your one of them that is saying the earth is 5,000 years old ?
What about Clovis Man in the Americas ? Are you disputing the find or any of the archeological finds in the world .
Are you one of those that thinks that the flood changed everything, even the air we breath ?
I got news from the east to the west . The world is older than 5,000 years . In Fact my spirit comes from a child that was sacrificed 12,000 years ago in Alaska . At an ancient House no less . Hell I didn't even know we had Houses back then . Turns out we had the technology even 12,000 years ago
What are you talking about ? What opposing though ? Can you be specific?
Are your one of them that is saying the earth is 5,000 years old ?
What about Clovis Man in the Americas ? Are you disputing the find or any of the archeological finds in the world .
Are you one of those that thinks that the flood changed everything, even the air we breath ?
I got news from the east to the west . The world is older than 5,000 years . In Fact my spirit comes from a child that was sacrificed 12,000 years ago in Alaska . At an ancient House no less . Hell I didn't even know we had Houses back then . Turns out we had the technology even 12,000 years ago
Sorry I meant West Indies
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Apr 8 2012, 07:36 PM)
Well if you have God delusions, turn these stones into bread. Either that or an Everlasting Gob-stopper.
I am . It was a red stone a native man from Browning Montana gave me . I gave the stone to a Haitian Man and he gave Me a wooden cup spun into what the typical symbolic symbol of the holy grail looks like . It sits on my desk as a reminder of what we as a group are doing in Haiti ( Wood for Haiti )
See I did not know what a philosophers stone was? I didn't understand the murmuring in the song "paint it black" by the stones was all about either ? I had to find out after the event . You think that might be a little freaky to have the chicken before the egg?
The stone turned black from my handling the stone before I gave it to the Haitian . It was red when the Man from Browning gave it to me . You think these events are not connected because of your own view . The story impacted the Haitian Doctor I gave it to. He is committed to Making his country better as you know he could do better if he just moved to the States and being a talented surgeon I don't see where he would have any problems . So can you see the level of commitment we have from the bond we created by an act of give and receive.
Ley Lines ? There is more to that picture than you realize . Linguistics experts should know that as they track language morph-age, motivating forces that cause migrations
So the stone is turning Haiti prosperous. It is turning into bread to feed the masses of Haiti .
It was a wish stone . That is what the Browning Man said . My wish was to improve the world for my children and the result was being flung into the middle of Haitian politics . Yeah connected to the top brass. Can you believe that ? Blow Me away . Google Kieth David coupled with Wood for Haiti and you will see what I mean. He wants to be part of my building team . That is a swell guy right there.
I made the wish first and then the events responded . Did I set the goal ? Not from a humans perspective . If I did I set the goal when I first experienced the Big /small dreams as a child
I am . It was a red stone a native man from Browning Montana gave me . I gave the stone to a Haitian Man and he gave Me a wooden cup spun into what the typical symbolic symbol of the holy grail looks like . It sits on my desk as a reminder of what we as a group are doing in Haiti ( Wood for Haiti )
See I did not know what a philosophers stone was? I didn't understand the murmuring in the song "paint it black" by the stones was all about either ? I had to find out after the event . You think that might be a little freaky to have the chicken before the egg?
The stone turned black from my handling the stone before I gave it to the Haitian . It was red when the Man from Browning gave it to me . You think these events are not connected because of your own view . The story impacted the Haitian Doctor I gave it to. He is committed to Making his country better as you know he could do better if he just moved to the States and being a talented surgeon I don't see where he would have any problems . So can you see the level of commitment we have from the bond we created by an act of give and receive.
Ley Lines ? There is more to that picture than you realize . Linguistics experts should know that as they track language morph-age, motivating forces that cause migrations
So the stone is turning Haiti prosperous. It is turning into bread to feed the masses of Haiti .
It was a wish stone . That is what the Browning Man said . My wish was to improve the world for my children and the result was being flung into the middle of Haitian politics . Yeah connected to the top brass. Can you believe that ? Blow Me away . Google Kieth David coupled with Wood for Haiti and you will see what I mean. He wants to be part of my building team . That is a swell guy right there.
I made the wish first and then the events responded . Did I set the goal ? Not from a humans perspective . If I did I set the goal when I first experienced the Big /small dreams as a child
Nice illustration of rock layers:
http://i.imgur.com/rmwZK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rmwZK.jpg
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Apr 19 2012, 09:28 PM)
Nice illustration of rock layers:
http://i.imgur.com/rmwZK.jpg
Awesum pic!
It's hard to compeat with nature.
http://i.imgur.com/rmwZK.jpg
Awesum pic!
It's hard to compeat with nature.
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.