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Bringer-of-Light
27th June 2008 - 09:07 PM
I think the most compellint piece of evidence is the laws of conservation of mass/energy. If nothing can be created or destroyed then what keeps consciousness from being subject to this rule?

2. Near death experiences - I have never had one, but I heard testimony from a man that has been through it. It is very compelling and I don't know of an explanation other than afterlife.

3. Spirits. People see the dead all of the time. Is this coincidence? Are all of these people liars? Doubtful.

4. We can't really have evidence against an afterlife because everyone who has been to the threshold and returned said that there was something there.


I am not a human being on a temporary spiritual journey, I am a spiritual being on a temporary human journey.
Dabeer
27th June 2008 - 09:16 PM
QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+)
I think the most compellint piece of evidence is the laws of conservation of mass/energy. If nothing can be created or destroyed then what keeps consciousness from being subject to this rule?

Consciousness is a byproduct of the continuing chemical reaction in our metabolism whereby mass is converted to energy. Upon death, the chemical reaction stops, and with no supply of energy to draw on, consciousness fails.

QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+)
2. Near death experiences - I have never had one, but I heard testimony from a man that has been through it. It is very compelling and I don't know of an explanation other than afterlife.

The human brain has an extraordinary capability of making sense out of nonsense. A brain that is on the edge of death is receiving chaotic signals from the senses, and is attempting to make sense of these signals while partially incapacitated. This results in the consciousness assembling a fairly simplistic reality that it can identify with. Naturally, when the brain is brought back from the brink, it remembers this experience and attempts to associate it with something familiar. Since religion is so pervasive in our culture, it is only natural that we would associate that experience with our religious concepts.

QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+)
3. Spirits. People see the dead all of the time. Is this coincidence? Are all of these people liars? Doubtful.

Again, the brain is exceptionally good at making things it doesn't understand fit into the framework of things it does understand. This is not to say that the spirit world does not exist - it might, I know I've experienced some very weird things in my time - but there is no evidence of it being an afterlife, much less it being the Christian afterlife.

QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+)
4. We can't really have evidence against an afterlife because everyone who has been to the threshold and returned said that there was something there.

This is a duplicate of number 1, which I've already addressed, but to sum up, a naturalistic explanation for the near death experience has been presented.

QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+)
I am not a human being on a temporary spiritual journey, I am a spiritual being on a temporary human journey.

You are free to believe this if you want to, but there is no basis in science for this belief, nor should this belief have any effect on science one way or the other.
kjw
27th June 2008 - 09:21 PM
QUOTE
Bringer-of-Light Posted on Today at 7:07 AM I think the most compellint piece of evidence is the laws of conservation of mass/energy. If nothing can be created or destroyed then what keeps consciousness from being subject to this rule?
it is a conservation law, not a mass/energy will always retain its form or function law. my body will decompose and biochemical processes will not be able to support my consciousness. the conservation law will hold, my biochemical seat of consciousness wont.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Bringer-of-Light Posted on Today at 7:07 AM I think the most compellint piece of evidence is the laws of conservation of mass/energy. If nothing can be created or destroyed then what keeps consciousness from being subject to this rule?
it is a conservation law, not a mass/energy will always retain its form or function law. my body will decompose and biochemical processes will not be able to support my consciousness. the conservation law will hold, my biochemical seat of consciousness wont.

2. Near death experiences - I have never had one, but I heard testimony from a man that has been through it. It is very compelling and I don't know of an explanation other than afterlife.
i do not count near death experiences as experiences of the after life, because technically the person did not complete the requirement of death ie they are still alive.

QUOTE
3. Spirits. People see the dead all of the time. Is this coincidence? Are all of these people liars? Doubtful.
hallucinations seem real.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
3. Spirits. People see the dead all of the time. Is this coincidence? Are all of these people liars? Doubtful.
hallucinations seem real.

4. We can't really have evidence against an afterlife because everyone who has been to the threshold and returned said that there was something there.
see 2.

gmilam
27th June 2008 - 09:28 PM
QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+Jun 27 2008, 04:07 PM)
4. We can't really have evidence against an afterlife because everyone who has been to the threshold and returned said that there was something there.

However not all have seen the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

QUOTE
In most cases, an NDE is described in the terms of whatever beliefs the person undergoing the experience has; people describe experiencing the afterlife they personally believe in, while those with no concrete beliefs tend to see disjointed images of things that are familiar to them.


People see whatever their culture expects to see.

Personally I suspect the brain is releasing endorphins and or other natural pain killers causing hallucinations.

gmilam
27th June 2008 - 11:07 PM
BringerOfLight,

Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes? I highly recommend it. (That and the book of James are my two favorite books of the bible.)

I specifically recommnend chapter 9, although the entire book is excellent!

QUOTE
Ecclesiastes 9:2
All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,  the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.


I, as much as anyone, realize that this is not scientific evidence against an afterlife. (Although, from a scientific point of view, it's up to you to present evidence that there is one.) But it is excellent food for thought.

Peace be with you.
no1nose
28th June 2008 - 03:29 AM
QUOTE
Consciousness is a byproduct of the continuing chemical reaction in our metabolism whereby mass is converted to energy. Upon death, the chemical reaction stops, and with no supply of energy to draw on, consciousness fails
.

This is silly.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Consciousness is a byproduct of the continuing chemical reaction in our metabolism whereby mass is converted to energy. Upon death, the chemical reaction stops, and with no supply of energy to draw on, consciousness fails
.

This is silly.


Ecclesiastes 9:2
All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,  the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.



Highly selective and misrepresents.


This is the latest study that I have seen http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7463606.stm


Dabeer
28th June 2008 - 03:51 AM
QUOTE (no1nose+Jun 27 2008, 11:29 PM)
QUOTE (Dabeer+)
Consciousness is a byproduct of the continuing chemical reaction in our metabolism whereby mass is converted to energy. Upon death, the chemical reaction stops, and with no supply of energy to draw on, consciousness fails.


This is silly.

Care to go into details about why you think that's silly?

If you like I'll be more specific. We think, remember, control our muscles, etc, via electronic impulses. The energy for these impulses is obtained via our metabolism from the food we eat or from our storage cells, fat. In death, the metabolic process ceases, resulting in no energy available for these impulses.

My entire point is that conservation of mass and energy is maintained. There is no extra energy to go anywhere, or mass either.
no1nose
28th June 2008 - 03:59 AM
QUOTE
Care to go into details about why you think that's silly?



Let's say you are wanting to have a certain kind of car and there is a whole list of options that you want on the car. The car and its option form an image in your mind. Can you tell me what exactly is the physical structure in your mind that is this car and options? No you cann't. If you try you are just making stuff up and talking waffle - so don't bother.

Did you check out the link?


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