One reason can be found here...
QUOTE (Collective Electrodynamics "Review" by Conrad.Schneiker of Munir F. Bhatti's critique of Carver Mead's Book+)
Collective Electrodynamics — by Carver Mead (review)http://www.athenalab.com/Back in the early-mid 1980s, I had the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to repeatedly see Richard Feynman and Carver Mead over the course of several months—both were very down-to-earth but awesome minds. Carver Mead is one of the great technical and entrepreneurial pioneers of VLSI design technology and silicon “neural networks”, among other things. I think Carver’s latest book is a huge (albeit partial) step towards an improved (more realistic) quantum electrodynamics.
Here is one of the Amazon.com reviews “Collective Electrodynamics”, written by Munir F. Bhatti (Los Angeles, CA), with minor {formatting changes, spelling corrections}:
“Despite his preface upbraiding physicists for their work of the past 50–75 years, the main text makes reasonable claims based upon well-founded experimental and theoretical results. The book endorses earlier work of Einstein, Feynman, Riemann, Lorentz, Maxwell, Planck, and others while making computational and conceptual adjustments to accommodate modern experimental results.
Also in the text, Bohr and other die-hard quantum statisticians are continually under attack for their poo-pooing of possible phenomena, algorithms, and concepts behind the observed quantum behavior. Bohr and his clan, apparently, claimed that the statistics made up the whole baseball team of quantum physics—and that we should not, and could not, look further.
In refuting this micro-labotomic approach of Bohr, Dr. Mead makes reference to systems—macroscopic in size—that exhibit quantum behaviors. While he mentions lasers, masers, semiconductors, superconductors, and other systems in the text, the primary results of the book hinge upon experimental results from the field of superconductors. He points out that physics can be split into several areas:
· Classical Mechanics explains un-coherent, uncharged systems such as cannon balls, planets, vehicles, etc.
· Classical Electrodynamics explains un-coherent, charged systems such as conductors, currents, and their fields.
· Thermodynamics explains how macroscopic statistics, such as temperature and entropy, guide the time evolution of systems.
· Modern Quantum Mechanics tries to explain coherent, charged systems.
Here 'coherent' refers to quantum coherency, where many particles/atoms march to the same drum such as the photons in a laser, or the electrons in a superconductor, or any isolated one or two particles. Another description of coherency is that the states are quantum entangled; their time-evolution depends upon each other.
The thrust of Carver's book: QM applies to all matter—not just small systems or isolated particles—is well made. He brings up experimental data from superconductors to illustrate that the phenomenon of coherent quantum entanglement can, and does, occur at macroscopic scales; and that such behavior is very quantum. Thus he proves, quite convincingly, that quantum mechanics applies to all coherent systems.
He then closes by making some very important points.
(1) He shows that quantum behavior of such systems can be expressed in quantum language (wave function), relativistic language (four-vectors), or electrodynamics (vector potential, scalar potential) in an equivalent fashion. This is important, as it proves that a superconductor is macroscopic, exhibits quantum behavior, and that these quantitative results agree with those found from the other approaches.
(2) He makes the point that the quantum and relativistic equations show that electromagnetic phenomena consist of two parts: one traveling forward in time; the other backward in time. Feynman and others have said this for a long time, and he shows how thermodynamics (or un-coherent behavior) forces what we see as only time-evolution in one direction in un-coherent systems.
(3) He illustrates, modeling single atoms as tiny superconducting resonators, that two atoms that are coherently linked will start exchanging energy. This causes an exponential, positive-feedback loop that ends with each atom in a quantum eigenstate. Thus quantum collapse is neither discontinuous, nor instantaneous; and in fact makes a lot of sense.
(4) He explains, using four-vectors, that all points on a light-cone are near each other in four space. This point—together with (2)—shows that there's no causality contradiction between relativity and quantum mechanics. For example, he explains that two entangled particles, such as photons light years apart, can affect each other immediately if one falls into an eigenstate, since the four-dimensional distance between them (R1 dot R2) is zero. Although separated in three space, they're neighbors in four space. Through these demonstrations and proofs, he successfully suggests that there is a way to further develop the 'behavior of charged, coherent systems' such that quantum mechanics and relativity will agree—but the conceptual changes he suggests are necessary and must be further developed. Also, he admits that a better, more appropriate mathematical and computational methods will be needed, since the complexity of coherent systems runs as n^2.
Pleasantly, then, the book makes elegant, defensible, mathematical and conceptual steps to resolve some nagging points of understanding. Also, the narrative gives the best introduction to electrodynamics and quantum mechanics that I've ever seen. Since the theoretical criticisms and experimental data are quite valid, his proposed resolutions are eye-opening and valuable. The methods he suggests greatly simplify thinking about complicated quantum/classical problems. New approaches for future theoretical research are also suggested. Despite the dark tone in the preface, the book is positive, enlightening, and well anchored to accepted, modern experimental results and theoretical work.
It's a short book, about 125 pages, and well worth the read. Familiarity with classical and quantum physics, and special relativity, is required to get the most out of it. As you can tell, I enjoyed it tremendously.”
From this we see that electrons resonantly "fill" a fermionic space and are localized when measured into what appears to be "point charges". I would go further than this and say light itself is related to matter such as electrons by being the equivalent of a "photon in a box"... a closed dimensional "quantum box" with light cone walls. That the emission and absorption of photons are resonant phenomena "guided" by space filling matter waves. The movement of "charges" then is the movement of these spatially resonant "holes".
Wikipedia: Carver MeadCarver is (was) a close associate of Richard Feynman and he accepts the Cramer Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Theory which incorporates Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Theory. In this interpretation space is resonantly filled with quasi-stationary matter waves through which light is guided from source to sink by a confluence of advanced and retarded potentials (of which we only "see" the quasi-stationary retarded potentials of the matter waves due to being "trapped in causality". An electron is a trapped photon and by analogy so are all other sub-atomic particles similar entities. Charge arises from topological considerations and is not a fundamental property.
Here are some references to electrons as trapped photons....
Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? J.G. Williamson and M.B. van der Mark
... Click to enlarge...
QUOTE (Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?+)
ABSTRACT We study the properties of a simple semi-classical model of a photon confined in periodic boundary conditions of one wavelength. The topology of this object, together with the photon electric field, give rise to a charge of the order of 10e-19 Coulomb and a half-integral spin, independent of its size. The ratio of the electromagnetic energy inside and outside the object leads to an anomalous spin g factor which is close to that of the electron. Although a finite size of order 10e-12 meter arises in a natural way, the apparent size of the object will
be much smaller in energetic scattering events.
http://members.chello.nl/~n.benschop/electron.pdf... Another reference to the same idea is here...
QUOTE
The Nature of the Electron" by Qiu-Hong HuDepartment of Physics, Gothenburg University, SE-412 96 Göteborg, Sweden, and LightLab Sweden AB, Smedjegatan 6, SE-131 34 Nacka, Sweden
THE POSTULATEThe topological structure of the electron is a closed two-turn helix (a so-called Hubius Helix) that is generated by circulatory motion of a mass-less particle at the speed of light.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0512265 These all echo the underlying truth that light is "matter"... just "bound" with a knot... a quantum knot called CPT-Lorentz Symmetry. "Charge", and that means all matter particles as well, kind of "move" in little jumps from one "spatial cavity" to the next through "resonance" (really it is the energy that is moving and undergoing quantum confinement). Particles are trapped inherently within a small Hilbert spatial cavity while light is moving inherently as if it was inside a virtual flatspace of cavities which are unbounded through "resonant propagation" at the speed of light. The difference is the "perspective" from which observers are making measurements (internal/external). In all cases the underlying photon is propagating at the speed of light but seen at a different "scale" where these trapped photons are in "circulating resonant states"... as quanta where the tiny cavity is a solution of Schrodinger's Equation.

... Click to enlarge..
This image shows a measured "big" cavity in which time symmetry of the EM wave function is broken by a magnetic field revealing the "smaller" resonant cavities in space within a waveguide as determined by an Atomic Force Microscope. These are actually in the empty space but the same occurs inside "solid" conductors but at different scales. They show "de Broglie Matter waves"... or one aspect of them... as a "slice" at a single frequency through the cavity.
The transfer of the electrons energy from one point in the group of interconnected cavities to another along with the conserved "electromagnetic twist" appears to us as if the "electron charges" are "moving under the influence of fields" in the "wires". Everything ... including DC currents... are movements of energy in "resonant lines" where the load is matched to the line and the velocity of charge is also a function of these quantum jumps. These entities are like little circulating photons traveling at an internal speed of light but externally are limited by the confining "matter waves packet". The electron and everything we term matter are only conventions we use to describe an underlying reality of Quantum Geometrodynamics (an idea that JA Wheeler promoted and invented).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeometrodynamicsQUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
The Nature of the Electron" by Qiu-Hong Hu Department of Physics, Gothenburg University, SE-412 96 Göteborg, Sweden, and LightLab Sweden AB, Smedjegatan 6, SE-131 34 Nacka, Sweden THE POSTULATE The topological structure of the electron is a closed two-turn helix (a so-called Hubius Helix) that is generated by circulatory motion of a mass-less particle at the speed of light.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0512265 |
These all echo the underlying truth that light is "matter"... just "bound" with a knot... a quantum knot called CPT-Lorentz Symmetry. "Charge", and that means all matter particles as well, kind of "move" in little jumps from one "spatial cavity" to the next through "resonance" (really it is the energy that is moving and undergoing quantum confinement). Particles are trapped inherently within a small Hilbert spatial cavity while light is moving inherently as if it was inside a virtual flatspace of cavities which are unbounded through "resonant propagation" at the speed of light. The difference is the "perspective" from which observers are making measurements (internal/external). In all cases the underlying photon is propagating at the speed of light but seen at a different "scale" where these trapped photons are in "circulating resonant states"... as quanta where the tiny cavity is a solution of Schrodinger's Equation.

... Click to enlarge..
This image shows a measured "big" cavity in which time symmetry of the EM wave function is broken by a magnetic field revealing the "smaller" resonant cavities in space within a waveguide as determined by an Atomic Force Microscope. These are actually in the empty space but the same occurs inside "solid" conductors but at different scales. They show "de Broglie Matter waves"... or one aspect of them... as a "slice" at a single frequency through the cavity.
The transfer of the electrons energy from one point in the group of interconnected cavities to another along with the conserved "electromagnetic twist" appears to us as if the "electron charges" are "moving under the influence of fields" in the "wires". Everything ... including DC currents... are movements of energy in "resonant lines" where the load is matched to the line and the velocity of charge is also a function of these quantum jumps. These entities are like little circulating photons traveling at an internal speed of light but externally are limited by the confining "matter waves packet". The electron and everything we term matter are only conventions we use to describe an underlying reality of Quantum Geometrodynamics (an idea that JA Wheeler promoted and invented).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeometrodynamicsAs described by Wheeler in the early 1960s, geometrodynamics attempts to realize three catchy slogans
* mass without mass,
* charge without charge,
* field without field.
There is experimental proof that light and matter is one entity since high energy experiments have shown that you can create matter "purely" from "light" (photons).
If you accept that premiss then this schema is not that implausible...

... Click to enlarge...
This is P343, "A First Course in String Theory" by B. Zwiebach. Though what I am saying is that you don't need string theory in that form to show this is true in our macroscopic world... It is a phenomenon that occurs "everywhere". Here we see that all the particles in the Universe can be "constructed"... "Constructor Set Style"... from a single entity (packet of energy and spin... photon) and the geometry of closed higher dimensional spaces through relativistic "mirrors" of internal light cone walls.
Cheers
meBigGuy
26th December 2007 - 09:39 AM
Think of voltage as joules/coulomb. That is, energy per unit charge. Imagine charges pushed together. It took energy to push them together. Increasing that energy (pushing them closer) will increase the voltage. That creates "pressure" (the force of electrons repelling). That force is related to the potential energy of a group of electrons, which we call Voltage.
When you then provide a conductive path, the electrons have a place to go. So, they begin to flow (under the force of charge repulsion). Imagine "flowable" electrons in a wire before current flows. Then complete a circuit. The repulsive force represented by all the electrons with their stored energy pushes electrons into the wire, which causes electrons to start flowing out the other end of the wire very quickly. The motion of individual electrons is slow (drift velocity, slower than mm/sec) but the force effects travel very fast (velocity of propagation, could be 3/4 light speed).
If lots and lots of electrons are stored, then your energy source has high current capacity. If only a few electrons are stored, it has little current capacity. But in both cases, the voltage is proportional to the amount of energy it took to bring those electrons together (again voltage in Volts is the number of joules per coulomb). (current in Amps is the number of coulombs per second that flows through the wire).
What actually happens in a conductive wire is another subject.
w6nrw
26th December 2007 - 04:56 PM
Hey meBigGuy et al, How do you answer some guy who asks:
why do like signs repel and un-like signs attract?
meBigGuy
27th December 2007 - 01:08 PM
You mutter some stuff about the exchange of virtual photons. The classic example works like this.
You are on a row boat and you throw a basketball to someone on another row boat. You both move away (repel). Now, that simplistic answer doesn't explain attraction, but that's a start.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quan..._particles.html"In QED, as in quantum mechanics in general, there are wave functions with complex-number values which have to be squared to get probabilities. We want to see that the wave function changes so that the like charges, on average, are repelled from each other, and the unlike charges, on average, are attracted."
Anyway, just google
charges repel virtual photon and read stuff.
Or, you could just say it is a law of nature
w6nrw
28th December 2007 - 04:59 PM
Thanks, mBG,
I usually say unlikes attract as in boys and girls.
But I think it really comes down to:
Ma Nature Rules
Ron
28th December 2007 - 08:54 PM
Hey Guys,
I've just been reading more on the importance of fields in understanding these phenomenon, and , as BigGuy says, the exchange of virtual photons (or virtual gluons or whatever force your dealing with) really helps me understand the range and charge/colour. I'm still reading so more input would be great. Thanks,
Peace,
Ron
meBigGuy
30th December 2007 - 02:43 AM
Ron
30th December 2007 - 06:41 AM
Hey bud,
Thanks alot. a quick read tells me I'm gonna learn alot from that essay.
Thanks a bunch. I'll talk more after crunching some of it.
Peace,
Ron
w6nrw
30th December 2007 - 10:36 PM
Hey Ron. If you are learning about fields, perhaps you would like
to do a little on the practical side. If your home is anything like
mine you have magnetic fields emanating from 60 Hz loads, but
also 60 Hz electric fields when everything is off --and that is 24-7
When I measure with a high impedance AC voltmeter between
myself and ground, I find that I am at around 2 VAC. Of course I
am floating so very little current results--perhaps a few nanoAmps
at the most. I am measuring the effect of my local 60Hz electric field
not the effect of 60 Hz magnetic fields.
I wonder what you measure from the 60 Hz electric field in your
location?
Perhaps mBG could also provide the same info
If you guys are interested, then I will relate why I am trying to
get this info.
Darren
31st December 2007 - 03:54 AM
QUOTE (rohankataria26+Dec 25 2007, 07:58 PM)
I've been thinking a lot and couldnt get the answer to this question...why do electrons flow in a circuit? All I know now is that it is due to "potential difference"..But what exactly is potential difference?? What force drives these electrons to flow from low potential to high potential?? What principle governs this whole phenomenon of flowing of electrons?? Please answer these questions if you can...
Look, the easiest way to think of this is low pressure and high pressure, the high pressure flows to the low pressure,right? just like the weather man say.
When it's a windy day, this high pressure flow to low pressure.
This a very very basic first assumption law of flow.
I kid you not it gets very complicated from thereon,okay?
Cheers
Darren
meBigGuy
31st December 2007 - 07:28 AM
QUOTE
When I measure with a high impedance AC voltmeter between
myself and ground, I find that I am at around 2 VAC. Of course I
am floating so very little current results--perhaps a few nanoAmps
at the most. I am measuring the effect of my local 60Hz electric field
not the effect of 60 Hz magnetic fields.
Probably not a meaningful measurement unless you build a narrowband 60Hz filter or measure with a spectrum analyzer. In addition your meter may not be true RMS, so the waveform could introduce errors.
As for current, the meter presents about 10Megohms between you and ground, so try 200na for 2 volts. But, I don't know the spec for your meter.
If you had a higher impedance meter, you would probably get an even higher reading.
Try measuring the frequency response of your meter. Some go up to 20KHz or more.
My meter isn't where it belongs, so I made no measurement yet.
w6nrw
31st December 2007 - 06:52 PM
For mBG
Re:
QUOTE
If you had a higher impedance meter the voltage would be even
higher . . .
Sure. I have looked with scope. Pretty clean. No doubt some harmonic
content, but 60 Hz strongly dominant. A 10 megOhm shunt drops reading
to around half. So 10 megOhm meter about right.
Reason I have been looking at this:
I have been tweeking a fellow who sells a length of wire and a ground stake
to people claiming that electrons that are available on the ground surface
will run up the wire to do benefit while you are sleeping -- your sleeping in
contact with a conductive pad that is connected to the ground wire.
I tend to believe that the only way there would be an electron flow as
claimed would be if you happen to be charged positive relative to ground.
I then looked as some of the research claimed and came to the conclusion
that they were missing any influence of 60 Hz fields and they did not
claim to be using a shielded facility. In looking at one test set up I noticed
that they were reading the voltage to ground of a subject, but not at the
current that could be flowing to ground.
It is my view that a current of a few microamps does flow in the ground
lead caused by the local 60 Hz electric field, not electrons coming up from
the earth.
They claim physical benefit from the practice. I have no comment on that.
To make my own measurements more accurate I suppose I will have to use
a coax cable cinfigured to make a Faraday screen on the ground lead.
At this point I don't knoow whether it is a con job or lack of knowledge.
There are MDs and pHds claimed, but they seem to be locked on looking
for physiological effects of those electrons coming up from ground LOL
bukh
31st December 2007 - 07:13 PM
Hej Good Elf
QUOTE:
"(Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?)
ABSTRACT
We study the properties of a simple semi-classical model of a photon confined in periodic boundary conditions of one wavelength. The topology of this object, together with the photon electric field, give rise to a charge of the order of 10e-19 Coulomb and a half-integral spin, independent of its size. The ratio of the electromagnetic energy inside and outside the object leads to an anomalous spin g factor which is close to that of the electron. Although a finite size of order 10e-12 meter arises in a natural way, the apparent size of the object will
be much smaller in energetic scattering events."
Am I right saying that this topology nicely explain the E-electro - and M -magnetic wave-pattern with 90 degree, if such a structure is having a straight tracectory. According to the "angle" of the structure relative to its trajectory, the E- and M-amplitudes will be equivalent to the height and the breith of the structure, respectively - and if one assume that the topology is more like two tubes placed 90 degree - then the width of such "tubes" will be equivalent to frequency - if one assume that the "particle" defining the structure had a fix speed - so the wider the tubes the slower the frequency and vice-versa, and in this way we can have any frequency in CBR.
Furthermore one can envisage that such a photonic structure in a straight trajectory is being bent into a circular trajectory, and this is when photon is being transformed into electron. And then gravitational force is being established - but the bending and the gravitational force is just chicken/egg.
Under "normal" conditions the photon is not travelling in Physical - but in the Informational World (virtual flatspace) - the scale below physical - and the speed in Informational is c, for the equivalent of the informational amount that goes for defining a photon.
QUOTE: "These all echo the underlying truth that light is "matter"... just "bound" with a knot... a quantum knot called CPT-Lorentz Symmetry. "Charge", and that means all matter particles as well, kind of "move" in little jumps from one "spatial cavity" to the next through "resonance" (really it is the energy that is moving and undergoing quantum confinement). Particles are trapped inherently within a small Hilbert spatial cavity while light is moving inherently as if it was inside a virtual flatspace of cavities which are unbounded through "resonant propagation" at the speed of light. The difference is the "perspective" from which observers are making measurements (internal/external). In all cases the underlying photon is propagating at the speed of light but seen at a different "scale" where these trapped photons are in "circulating resonant states"... as quanta where the tiny cavity is a solution of Schrodinger's Equation."
The above is so wonderfully in line with the ideas that Ivars and I have been discussing in the other thread "Particles have mass - how ?"
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