I love this message board. There are so many smart people to bouce ideas off of.
So, I am a graduate student at Harvard majoring in psychology. I was posed a difficult problem by the professor and am wondering what other people might come up with.
Let's say there is a technology called EEG cloning where a person's brain waves could be exactly cloned onto someone else and vice versa at varying degrees. In essence the two people begin to have the same thoughts with this technology (which is top secret he said so it is science fiction if you talk about it).
How could you prove that someone was being EEG cloned?
You can assume that we built a superconductor shielded chamber that could block the full spectrum of neuron influencing electromagnetics. But the trick is that the cloner is hostile and will try to mess up your results however they can. That means that the subjects that you are going to test can be influenced accordingly so you must hide the knowledge from both them and yourself. How would you construct the experiment to prove scientifically that the group or an individual was indeed being EEG cloned and manipulated by this technology?
Come on smart guys, help me find the best answer.
EEG is not a map of thoughts but of general Brain Activity.
No too brains would ever have the same associations made or reinforced nor the same memories, neuron interconnections etc etc.
So that assuming you COULD force a PATTERN of activity onto a subject's brain, it would NOT result in the same THOUGHTS as the source brain.
In fact the way you could tell (sort of) is that the subject would suddenly start making totally random associations to EVERY stimulus.
Arthur
No too brains would ever have the same associations made or reinforced nor the same memories, neuron interconnections etc etc.
So that assuming you COULD force a PATTERN of activity onto a subject's brain, it would NOT result in the same THOUGHTS as the source brain.
In fact the way you could tell (sort of) is that the subject would suddenly start making totally random associations to EVERY stimulus.
Arthur
That's a fair reply to the assessment of the technology. But remember it is science fiction. Of course there is an autocorrelation between two brains given the same sensory stimulus. Add that mapping then to the model of the technology. The point of the question was a thought puzzle and not to debate the details of implementation. While in fact humans do have similar mappings in the brain if you do your research. You only need to offset neural firing groups to map them. So for the moment just assume this technology is too sophisticated for most to understand and it was given to us by "aliens". Can you solve the double blind conundrum?
So I asked my professor about the previous response and he said that in fact he is right in that a side effect of the technology often leads to small jerks and convulsions when not fully alligned. So you could prove statistically that when a person is shielded that they exhibit less jerking. But that was a side effect that most don't know about and isn't the best solution.
If you disentangle a hyper sensitive EEG signal, you can find the correlates to sound interpretation for example. Again assume we have a MEG/EEG machine which can capture a signal quantum of energy giving us easy access to every neural firing event. But if you design the experiment using common sense about people and there finite but different expressions of personality you may not need any of this high tech equipment to prove it. It has to do with knowledge and information and how statistics will show you the evidence.
hello psychstudent 
if i understand your question correctly, to me, it would seem that in order to determine if a group or person was EEG cloned you would also need a way of determining who wasn't EEG cloned. there are problems here. how do you know that your not being EEG cloned to believe that others are EEG cloned ? how do you know that your not being EEG cloned to believe its impossible to determine if someone else is EEG cloned.
its a question not unlike, how does any individual determine whether they are the only conscious person in existence ? if you can compile a rational answer to prove that others are conscious, then i think this is the way to answer the professor question.
so how do you prove that i'm conscious ?
its a good question.
if i understand your question correctly, to me, it would seem that in order to determine if a group or person was EEG cloned you would also need a way of determining who wasn't EEG cloned. there are problems here. how do you know that your not being EEG cloned to believe that others are EEG cloned ? how do you know that your not being EEG cloned to believe its impossible to determine if someone else is EEG cloned.
its a question not unlike, how does any individual determine whether they are the only conscious person in existence ? if you can compile a rational answer to prove that others are conscious, then i think this is the way to answer the professor question.
so how do you prove that i'm conscious ?
its a good question.
QUOTE
So for the moment just assume this technology is too sophisticated for most to understand and it was given to us by "aliens".
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| So for the moment just assume this technology is too sophisticated for most to understand and it was given to us by "aliens". |
...side effect of the technology often leads to small jerks and convulsions...
These two statements seem to contradict each other. If we don't have the technology, how do you know what its side effects are?
Very good. Since this is a "thought experiment" in the style of Einstein, let's just assume that the observer is immune to the technology. I didn't even think of that possibility. Is there still a way making all these assumptions, to device an experiment to statistically prove a difference when someone is in the superconducting shielding vs. outside of it. For example, in order for the shielding to work, it must be cooled by liquid nitrogen to 77 degrees kelvin. By pouring cold water vs nitrogen, one could observe EEG changes only if it began to superconduct. But if the observer knows what is being poured, the hostile cloners could force a correlation so it must be devised in such a way as to keep the observer ignorant and the subject under observation ignorant. Something like that.
And to respond to the previous reply. Yes they are contradictory statements simply because some people don't think we landed on the moon and it was a hoax for example. So I leave it up to the reader to do their own research and make their own belief system. Depending on your level of knowledge, security clearance, or otherwise, you will have a different belief in whether the system exists. Don't let that get in the way of this thought experiment.
And to respond to the previous reply. Yes they are contradictory statements simply because some people don't think we landed on the moon and it was a hoax for example. So I leave it up to the reader to do their own research and make their own belief system. Depending on your level of knowledge, security clearance, or otherwise, you will have a different belief in whether the system exists. Don't let that get in the way of this thought experiment.
ok psychstudent, if the observer is immune that means the observer could use their own eeg cloning machine to use on the test subject.
so the observer hooks up to the machine and begins to "control " the subject. if the test subject responds to the commands of the observer, than the subject is not being controlled by any one else. if the subject fails to respond to the observers commands, its is due to the hostile cloner getting in first and preventing your commands for being enacted (either that or you forgot to plug the power in)
this response is based on my understanding of your question, which i am still a bit unsure of.
does this response fit ?
so the observer hooks up to the machine and begins to "control " the subject. if the test subject responds to the commands of the observer, than the subject is not being controlled by any one else. if the subject fails to respond to the observers commands, its is due to the hostile cloner getting in first and preventing your commands for being enacted (either that or you forgot to plug the power in)
this response is based on my understanding of your question, which i am still a bit unsure of.
does this response fit ?
To ensure a legitimate double blind test I will donate some viable intestinal cells for cloning purposes.
QUOTE (Ray Charles+Jan 5 2012, 09:53 PM)
To ensure a legitimate double blind test I will donate some viable intestinal cells for cloning purposes.
Thanks so now for the music.
Thanks so now for the music.
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