Yes, AlphaNumeric does present rather (overly) simple comments at times (not necessarily bad as getting an answer requires an ability to stop computing, but there are many layers of complexity to mathematics that build upon each other).
Consider that the intent of mathematics is not to create operations that have no defined results. If, for example, we defined 2+2 to be undefined instead of arriving at a result of 4, we're worse off. It's more informative and natural to derive what a result should be than to simply define what it is.
Consider this discontinuity:
What's 3 times x? It's simply 3x and not 3 or any other specific number.
Now what's n times x? Notice that for all n!=0, we can only describe it as nx, but at a single point where n=0, we suddenly remove the record of x and the result becomes detached from any dependence upon x. Though similarly we could see that if x=0, then the result is still zero and independent of n. (This is simply a common convention in mathematics and not necessarily a correct or optimal interpretation for all classes of operations - we can do better, though the tradeoff is in the complexity of our representations and recordkeeping)
Notice that by the definition of mathematical linearity, a multiplication by zero is not inherently a linear operation either as we have two operations that define linearity with regard to scaling and addition:
f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y)
and
a * f(x) = f(ax)
We can additionally place a couple restrictions here in that:
f(x + y) != f(z) + f(y) (Where x!=z)
and
a * f(x) != a * f(z) (Where x!=z)
Notice that these secondary conditions are required to allow x to actually exist as a number instead of remaining an unknown variable and the logic is implicit in an equation.
To explain this requirement a little, recognize that if n is a variable, it's denoted as n and specifically, as say, n=2. The significance of an equality that n=2 arises in a complimentary fashion from that fact that n is not 0 or 1 or 3 or -1 etc. So n=2, but also n is not equal to all other numbers, excluding 2. If n could be any number, then it remains a variable or unknown and not a number and if n could be a range of values, then we could describe n in terms of a set of solutions.
If we ignore the secondary requirements, and initially say that f(x) is something simple like f(x)=2x, then
f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y)
a * f(x) = f(ax)
because
2*(x+y)=2x+2y
a*2*(x)=2ax
But also notice that if we have:
2*(x+y) != 2z+2y
2x != 2z
x!=z
a*2*(x) != 2az
2ax!=2az
x!=z
But consider that if f(x)=0x, then f(x)=0 and we have:
0*(x+y) != 0z+0y
0!=0+0
0!=0
Which is false, and also:
a*0*(x) != 0az
0ax!=0az
0!=0
again, this is false.
Another way of representing the problem is to look at this equation in a geometric context:
f(x+y)=f(x)+f(y)
If we say simply that f(x)=x this becomes:
x+y=x+y
We're effectively placing two rulers of length x and y together and using the total distance to represent the summation, but notice that this doesn't imply that we can arbitrarily rewrite this as x+y=z+y or assume as x+y=(current day of week)+(price of tea in china), otherwise we do not have a rigid dimension we're working with and we're not actually measuring distances within a single space, but instead selecting random rulers in random dimensions, there may not even exist a manner to construct such a space (in other words we could potentially select paradoxical components that couldn't even interact simultaineously)
As long as we have a unique value of f(x) for all unique values of x, then there is no manner to destroy the dimension of x because every element in x is uniquely visible after the function, but if we map multiple values of x to an identical function result/output, then there is no manner to determine what value x was, and x is actually a set of possible values (in the extreme, for f(x)=0, x could be any value and it's truly unrelated to the misnamed "function") and in fact we couldn't even prove that it was specifically x that the function operated upon. We could embed a non-linear function g(x) inside this and get a result of f(g(x)), that would still appear to meet the definition of linearity above.
Consider that out ability to precisely (deterministically) detect linearity relies upon out ability to exclude random or indeterminant and non-linear functions from those that are specifically linear.
But once again, having mathematical definitions that lead to computations that are indeterminant or undefined aren't inherently useful and the value of knowing what a number is arises in a complimentary fashion from knowing that it's
not any other number (otherwise it's not a number at all, but a variable or unknown and selecting a specific number to represent the result is arbitrary and unprovable).
StevenA
18th July 2008 - 09:25 AM
Understand that a "multiplication" by zero is never performed as a multiplication of objects at all. It's simply a defined identity. Noone's actually counting zero of something to verify the result (notice that the result of 0*x should actually be 0x and not 0 because we need to know what it is we have nothing of. If we multiply any other non-zero value by x we're left with things in units of x and in order to remove the discontinuity for multiplication by 0 we need to still retain a record of specifically what it is that we don't have - consider how can you determine whether or not you have nothing of something if you don't even know what the something is)
This definitional problem has caused a lot of grief in mathematics over time and makes many systems of linear computations awkward in testing for when the results become indeterminant due to some zero floating around.
As a simple example of the problem, imagine shrinking an object, such as a circle, down to a point. Is this possible to do and still guarantee that it's only the circle that was compressed into this point? Notice that no matter how small we make the circle, we can always retain a record of the mathematical properties that define it and determine them to describe circular characteristics, but as soon as we make the jump to describing the object purely as a point, there's no manner to determine whether or not it represents a circle anymore - it could just have easily been a square or smiley face compressed to a point and there's no manner to construct correlations between that point and specifically a circle or whatever object has supposedly been "scaled to a point", because the point provides no information regarding the specifics of the objects that constructed it.
The reason why a division by zero is not defined is because the inverse, multiplication by zero wasn't defined correctly, so you can't invert it and create division and again, "nothing" might equal zero, but nothing never exists, we always have something, so to be more accurate, when a result is "nothing" it should actually be clarified as to the specific properties of the object that we don't have any of, otherwise we can't prove that it doesn't exist (which is ironic in itself as we effectively need the presence of a unit metric in order to measure things to verify that no such metric exists elsewhere ... but then again, how can you define the properties of something that doesn't exist? At a minimum we need to separate a solution space out and isolate locations for which the result cannot exist and then you're working within the context of that subset of solutions)
I recognize mathematics is intended to be abstract, but it still needs to be logical.
If we substituted a multiplicative 0 for a term 1/n and let n grow arbitrarily, we can remove much of the need for calculus as well as remove many of the indeterminacies that arise from the use of 0 in calculus and arithmetic and algebra.
Notice that in an example someone gave above for 0*(1/0), if we replace this with 0*(x/y) we should normally be able to replace this with 0, but consider the cases when x or y may equal 0 and we find that the order of operations affects the possible interpretations, and in that case we also find that 0*x itself could be indeterminant and that the multiplicative identity isn't deterministic. If we ignore the order of operations and assume 0*(1/0)=0, then we still have problems as now if we attempted to associate a multiplication by for 0*(x/y) to become (0/y)*x we find that (0/0)*1=0 and hence 0/0 could only equal 0, which invalidates many derivatives in calculus and disallows us simplifying something like x/x=1 because it would be x/x=1 if x!=0 and x/x=0 if x=0.
On the other hand, if we have 0=1/n where n is simply a common and arbitrarily large number for a computation, then we can show 0*(1/0)=1/n*(1/(1/n))=n/n=1 and this is very intuitive and doesn't require calculus to solve. Though it does create a need for greater distinction between an additive zero (which would be unchanged) and signed multiplicative zeroes (which would effectively be infinitesimal terms). We also have an ability to work with a single common explicit infinite term, n and construct identities such as infinity*0=1 where infinity=1/0 or 1/(1/n)=n and so infinity*0=n*1/n=n/n=1 and we also have identities such as 0^2!=0 because (1/n)^2 != 1/n though we could apply an operation similar to calculus and determine that these are approximately equal, with only an infinitesimal difference (and a unique manner of representing such forms of approximation should be available, such as the limit in calculus, though notice that these should not be explicitly written as identities or equalities or we once again run into paradoxes). Another interesting identity would be e=(1+0)^infinity (and we could construct infinitesimal variations to this such as e~=(1+0+0^2)^infinity, though n should be the largest value in a computation and the 0^2 term would become 1/n^2, which could cause problems as we have values "larger than infinity" present in the equation, so a rewrite of this as e~=(1+0^.5+0)^(infinity^.5) could be a better manner to describe a similar object).
Zarkov
18th July 2008 - 11:51 AM
QUOTE
What's 3 times x? It's simply 3x and not 3 or any other specific number.
Now what's n times x? Notice that for all n!=0, we can only describe it as nx, but at a single point where n=0, we suddenly remove the record of x and the result becomes detached from any dependence upon x.
LOL, you don't see it do you, that you have changed your logic
zero is NOT A NUMBER
math has to be consistent
you can't just change your logic just because you want to.... LOL
get it ?????
bm1957
18th July 2008 - 09:13 PM
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 17 2008, 07:44 PM)
QUOTE (me+)
Did my post make sense? Have you got any questions with it? I only ask because it answered the same question for me quite satisfactorily (I think it was AN who originally posted it, much more accurately I imagine!)
The point is, division by 0 is just nonsense, since division is not a fundamental operation. To divide by x, you must be able to multiply by 1/x, that's what division really is. Trying to multiply by 1/0 is difficult!
So 0/0 is really 0*(1/0), and you must do the 1/0 and get a Real result before you can attempt the 0*().
Yes, AlphaNumeric does present rather (overly) simple comments at times (not necessarily bad as getting an answer requires an ability to stop computing, but there are many layers of complexity to mathematics that build upon each other).
Sorry Steven, I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to those who accept mathematically accepted definitions and explanations. You prefer your own made up wordy descriptions which are not self-consistent and don't actually help with doing maths so you may as well ignore my post. And everyone else may as well ignore yours I guess.
StevenA
19th July 2008 - 06:09 AM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 18 2008, 09:13 PM)
Yes, AlphaNumeric does present rather (overly) simple comments at times (not necessarily bad as getting an answer requires an ability to stop computing, but there are many layers of complexity to mathematics that build upon each other).[/QUOTE]
Sorry Steven, I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to those who accept mathematically accepted definitions and explanations. You prefer your own made up wordy descriptions which are not self-consistent and don't actually help with doing maths so you may as well ignore my post. And everyone else may as well ignore yours I guess.
Notice that your post isn't consistant with mathematical definitions.
It's defined for integers that 0*x=0, yet you said that we can't evaluation 0*(1/0) because we'd first need to compute 1/0, which is undefined, but consider that the multiplicative identity 0*x=0 doesn't require that we first compute x to determine whether or not a multiplication by 0 results in 0 or is an undefined result.
If we use your interpretation of mathematical definitions, we'd find that 0*x=0 or 0*x=undefined. So a multiplication by 0 would not be an identity mapping but instead would provide 2 possible results, for which a computation of x determined the selection.
Of course, I haven't been claiming that a multiplication by 0 is deterministic anyway (at least you can't prove it's a linear scaling), and your comment shows the same thing.
Oh and, by the way, don't be a hypocrit. You posted a comment directed at 'brent.tc' early and he hadn't directed his comment at you specifically either. I just followed suit after you.
Now feel free to ignore my post.
AlphaNumeric
19th July 2008 - 06:46 AM
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 07:09 AM)
Notice that your post isn't consistant with mathematical definitions.
Oh the hypocrisy!! You're the guy who doesn't accept mathematical definitions of 'linear', 'linear combination' etc
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 07:09 AM)
It's defined for integers that 0*x=0,
Actually it's a derived property, not a definition. The properties of multiplication are related to the definition of 1. 0 is defined by it's effect on things under addition, ie 0+x = x is the defining property of 0. It's from this, and other axioms of algebra, that we can derive that 0*x = 0.
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 07:09 AM)
If we use your interpretation of mathematical definitions, we'd find that 0*x=0 or 0*x=undefined.
We only find that 0*x=undefined if x is undefined, which is logical. What is 0*table? 0*grey? 0*(that person I walked past on October 23rd 2005 at 3.14pm) ? They are all undefined. Just because you can write down something which might superficially seem well defined mathematically like 1/0 doesn't mean it's any more valid than 'table'.
So any consisteny system will have 0*x = 0.
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 07:09 AM)
Oh and, by the way, don't be a hypocrit.
Telling others not to be a hypocrite, thus making you a hypocrite, must be some kind of hypocritical singularity!
magpies
19th July 2008 - 06:54 AM
I agree with who ever said 0 is not a real number. It is a concept that can not be represented in a totaly correct way. Thus it is alot like infinity. I can say something goes to infinity but that has very lil truth to it unless I can actualy define what infinity is totaly. Not possible at any rate at least not untill infinity becomes nothing zero zilch ect...
I aways wonderd how people can use infinity in any equation and consider it a legit equation lol. I mean perhaps you can use the concept of infinity and the concept of zero in a logical argument but not a logical equation imo.
AlphaNumeric
19th July 2008 - 07:06 AM
QUOTE (magpies+Jul 19 2008, 07:54 AM)
I agree with who ever said 0 is not a real number.
Then the axioms of 'real analysis' say you're wrong.
QUOTE (magpies+Jul 19 2008, 07:54 AM)
I aways wonderd how people can use infinity in any equation and consider it a legit equation lol. I mean perhaps you can use the concept of infinity and the concept of zero in a logical argument but not a logical equation imo.
Why not open a book and find out!
Oh wait, that's too much like real work and I bet you were a crap student at maths, when you did maths.
magpies
19th July 2008 - 07:13 AM
Actualy I was a terrible student in math respects and almost every other respect lol. I did not conform in school thus when a teacher asked me a question I gave them the opposite answer they wanted. In a class of 600 I graduated I GRADUATED! YUSSS 7th from the bottom. School for me was a joke and still is but I would if I knew now what I knew then have "cheated" and gave to me false answers aka the answer the teacher wanted inorder to get a cool job at some physics place where I could then explode stuff for a living! Thus now I am stuck with exploding nothing right now

Life is soooo much more fun when you get to explode stuff the legit way dont you think?
Gorgeous
19th July 2008 - 09:11 AM
Numbers are symbols, representations, and not 'things' in themselves.
'0' is a representation for 'that which does not exist'.
Thus, it may be considered a 'number' but it does not represent anything.
g.
StevenA
19th July 2008 - 11:20 AM
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Jul 19 2008, 06:46 AM)
We only find that 0*x=undefined if x is undefined, which is logical.
So if we construct:
f(x,y)=0*(x/y)
And then we map a 2-D XY space of this, are you telling me that we have an infinitesimally thin (discontinuous) line embedded within this plane that is undefined and the rest of the plane results in zeroes?
(If you really want to have some fun, try to determine the width of this line)
Also, consider what you could consider to be proven for the value of f(0,0). (Do you feel up to trying to define f(0,0)?)
QUOTE (Gorgeous+)
Numbers are symbols, representations, and not 'things' in themselves.
'0' is a representation for 'that which does not exist'.
Thus, it may be considered a 'number' but it does not represent anything.
Consider that you just said it represents "that" which does not exist. In order that we can determine whether or not we have zero of "that", we need to know what "that" is. At a minimum, it would be good to know, for example, if "that" is an integer, rational, complex, real number or quantity of trees. If we can't define the metric that doesn't exist, then how can we demonstrate that it doesn't exist? For example, if we have 0 meters of distance, we still need meters to existance in order that we can determine that we specifically have none of them in our case. If on the other hand, someone interpretes the fact that, for example, we can't determine a manner to construct a 'Murglot', then how can we prove none exist if we can't even determine how to make one of them to know what we're looking for?
Notice that for this equation:
n*x=0
x is required to be equal to zero for all n!=0, but when n=0, then x is no longer constrained to being zero and x remains a variable and unknown instead of a specific number.
Would it be correct to say that we can prove that for n=0 in the above, that x=0 or x=2 or any other specific number or would the above only indicate that x remains a variable and unknown?
mott.carl
19th July 2008 - 04:17 PM
aLL THE DIVISION BY ZERO ARE INDERTERMINED BY ORDINALITY OR ARE IMAGINARY,IN THE CASE BY THE CARDINALITY,IS 1 GIVEN BY THE SURREAL NUMBERS.THEN IN ANY DIMENSIONS HAVE THAT THE CARDINALS ARE FRACTALS BY THE INVERSE EULER EQUATIONS,WITH IMAGINARY REPRESENTING THE COMPLEX VECTORIAL SPACES,THAT DETRMINE THE FRAGMENTATION OF THE INTERGERS.
bm1957
19th July 2008 - 04:36 PM
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 07:09 AM)
It's defined for integers that 0*x=0, yet you said that we can't evaluation 0*(1/0) because we'd first need to compute 1/0, which is undefined, but consider that the multiplicative identity 0*x=0 doesn't require that we first compute x to determine whether or not a multiplication by 0 results in 0 or is an undefined result.
Stop talking out of your arse! (And read the post which said ignore my posts unless you're going to accept established definitions).
QUOTE
If we use your interpretation of mathematical definitions, we'd find that 0*x=0 or 0*x=undefined.
Ok, let's play your stupid games for a moment...
x is an integer ( as defined by you in your previous paragraph), so, using my interpretation, which integer for x would give 0*x=undefined?
Oh hang on... no, not a single one. Go crawl back under your stone.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| If we use your interpretation of mathematical definitions, we'd find that 0*x=0 or 0*x=undefined. |
Ok, let's play your stupid games for a moment...
x is an integer ( as defined by you in your previous paragraph), so, using my interpretation, which integer for x would give 0*x=undefined?
Oh hang on... no, not a single one. Go crawl back under your stone.
Oh and, by the way, don't be a hypocrit. You posted a comment directed at 'brent.tc' early and he hadn't directed his comment at you specifically either. I just followed suit after you.
Don't be a numbskull; the reasoning that you could ignore my post was that you don't accept established definitions, so we would be talking at cross-purposes if we started a discussion. For the same reason I pay little attention to the math you write... it isn't math.
AlphaNumeric
19th July 2008 - 05:03 PM
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 12:20 PM)
So if we construct:
f(x,y)=0*(x/y)
And then we map a 2-D XY space of this, are you telling me that we have an infinitesimally thin (discontinuous) line embedded within this plane that is undefined and the rest of the plane results in zeroes?
A line is continuous, by definition. Otherwise it's a union of discontinuous points.
And f(x,y) = f(x/y) such that f : R^2 -> R is well defined everywhere by y=0.
The width of the line is zero. There's not 'fun' or difficult to determine. It's the standard property of a line.
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 19 2008, 12:20 PM)
Also, consider what you could consider to be proven for the value of f(0,0). (Do you feel up to trying to define f(0,0)?)
It's undefined. Who says it has to be well defined? What if I said
"Let f(x,y) = squirrel/elephant + table. Give me the numerical value of f(5,10)."
Does the fact I can construct a BS question somehow invalidate maths?
Still too scared to do any of Euler's questions Steven? What's the matter, too scared to put your maths where your big fat lying **** spewing mouth is? You talk about topology but you cannot even do the simplest question imaginable on topology! And I mean that, Euler couldn't have asked an easier question! It's the topology version of :
"I define X such that X*Y = 0 for any Y. What is X*5?"
Seriously, he's asked you to show that something which is defined to satisfy the definition of a topology satisfies the definition of a topology!
buttershug
19th July 2008 - 07:25 PM
QUOTE (magpies+Jul 19 2008, 07:13 AM)
Actualy I was a terrible student in math respects and almost every other respect lol. I did not conform in school thus when a teacher asked me a question I gave them the opposite answer they wanted. In a class of 600 I graduated I GRADUATED! YUSSS 7th from the bottom. School for me was a joke and still is but I would if I knew now what I knew then have "cheated" and gave to me false answers aka the answer the teacher wanted inorder to get a cool job at some physics place where I could then explode stuff for a living! Thus now I am stuck with exploding nothing right now

Life is soooo much more fun when you get to explode stuff the legit way dont you think?
The only such people that explode stuff for a living do so for TV shows.
StevenA
19th July 2008 - 10:58 PM
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+)
A line is continuous, by definition. Otherwise it's a union of discontinuous points.
If the line is split into two contiguous regions that exclude the point (0,0), then it would be a discontinuous line. I hadn't intended to specifically say it was discontinuous, but that if f(0,0) is not 0, then it would be.
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+)
And f(x,y) = f(x/y) such that f : R^2 -> R is well defined everywhere by y=0.
I believe bm1957 disagrees with you as he declared that 0*(1/0) is undefined.
If x and y were integers, would you make the same claim?
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+)
The width of the line is zero. There's not 'fun' or difficult to determine. It's the standard property of a line.
If you believe 0*(x/y) to be 0 for all x and y, then there would be no such undefined line and my question would not be relevant.
Though we still have problems that just bulge out elsewhere, but we've been through this enough in the past already, so I'll simply post 7 equations for you to consider:
1x=1
1x=0
0x=1
0x=0
0y=0 (y!=x)
0=1
0=0
Notice that if we map 0x->0, then the bottom 2 equations are numerically equivalent to the middle 2. In the top two, the dimension x plays a role in the solution and only a specific location within this dimension solves the equation. In the bottom 5, not only is it that a specific value for x cannot be determine, the dimension of x is unrelated and irrelevant to the equality and the equations are not determined by x, and in fact, we could just as easily consider the solution related to any other irrelevant dimension. The major commonality between the last 5 equations is that x plays no role in determining a solution. (Notice that if we instead used an infinitesimal scaling to the dimension, we could then, as in calculus, fit finite values within an area approaching a point, yet still be able to envision the dimension extending beyond it, but that would require operations that involved various magnitudes of infinity be involved and an explicit record of these would need to be retained and we would not actually be performing a multiplication by an unadorned zero)
Now we might try to say that the solution for 0x=0 is x=2 and "prove" this to be true because 0*2=0, so x would obviously be equal to 2, but we could also imagine that a smeared blot being held up by a psychologist represents an egg containing a malevolent dragon that will gooble up the world and "prove it" because such a dragon would have to hatch from an egg.
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+)
It's undefined. Who says it has to be well defined? What if I said
"Let f(x,y) = squirrel/elephant + table. Give me the numerical value of f(5,10)."
Does the fact I can construct a BS question somehow invalidate maths?
What's incorrect about the construction f(x,y,z)=x*y/z?
If we assume an implicit requirement that z!=0, then we have a discontinuity in the domain.
Notice also that if, for example, 0*(1/0) != (0*1)/0, then we have an additional problem in that the order of operations for a computation of x*y/z could not be arbitrarily rearranged.
[quote=AlphaNumeric]Still too scared to do any of Euler's questions Steven? What's the matter, too scared to put your maths where your big fat lying **** spewing mouth is? You talk about topology but you cannot even do the simplest question imaginable on topology! And I mean that, Euler couldn't have asked an easier question! It's the topology version of :/quote]
Oh yes, let's roleplay some more. You can pretend to be a university teacher and I'll pretend to be a 7 year old imbecile, bordering full on idiocy simply confused by your replies on fundamental questions.
And regarding Euler, me and others have already tried replying to his questions but he simply repeats himself 20 times and pays no attention to the responses. He pretends as though the answers were a joke or makes some simple comment regarding his emotional impressions and then just repeats the question again without absorbing any of the content of the replies.
StevenA
20th July 2008 - 03:17 AM
Here's a geometric example of the problem with a supposed multiplication in which we substitute 0*x with 0.
Imagine looking at a single dimension, x. It's simply a line that potentially spans between +/-infinity. A solution for x is a single point and referenced within that dimension.
In order for x to describe a dimension, various values of x need to exist and be differentiable. If the entire dimension of x could either 1) only be a single value, the dimension is not a line and it wouldn't even describe a constant within it - you could not vary values of x to deferentiate between any of them or 2) if we varied values of x, but none of them could alter a detectable result elsewhere, then similarly the linear dimension of x does not exist relative to that other space and this dimension would instead be no different than an isolated point detached from that space - you could not prove any specific properties about x because its influence could not be traced anywhere.
So imagine we're mapping from a dimension x to a dimension y and we're scaling the dimension x by various constants (it's a bit of a misnoemer to call these different values, constants, because if they're altered, then they aren't really constant, but that's a separate subject) and then mapping this rescaled dimension to y. We could also compare this with viewing a rotation of a line.
If we have values of x range from -1 to +1 and map this with a scaling of 1 to y, we see this line segment mapped to y and similarly span between -1 and +1.
Now if we compress x by a factor of 1/2, then |x|<=1 maps to |y|<=1/2 and we might assume for |x|<1 then |y|<1/2 (I prefer such an interpretation, but the .9r=1 guys would probably prefer to add conditions to this inequality). We can establish a connection with other values on the y dimension by mapping them x=y/(1/2) or x=2y. Notice a potential problem here in that for whatever length the y dimension is, in order to establish a 1 to 1 correlation between points, we either need to quantize these dimensions into identical number of positions or have the y dimension span twice as many positions as x (normally not a problem if we're working with finite quantities, but the problem is over making a generalization to unbounded quantites and treating both dimensions as if they were identical units, as no matter what some infinite/unbounded value might be, it couldn't be twice as large as itself, so the x dimension would have to be compressed relative to y).
As we rotate this further, we could generalize this to a scaling factor, c, and map y=cx, and for values of |x|<=1, we have |y|<=c or for |x|<1, |y|<c, and we can associate all values of y with x as x=y/c.
Of course c could be made as small as we want and if not equal to 0, then we can always associate points in y with points in x and visa versa and for any issues of varied density in the representation, if we simply perform the inverse mapping by scaling by 1/c, we can return to the original 1 to 1 correlation between the x and y dimensions.
But when c=0, any point in the x dimension maps to a single point in the y dimension. It's not simply that finite numbers map to a point, but that the entire dimension of x exists within a single point on y (if you want something different, then you need to work with calculus or define such infinitesimal scalings and retain a manner to distinguish the dimension of x from a point).
Notice that if we write a linear equation:
c(x+y)=0
For values of c!=0, we have a line at a 45 deg angle that solve for this. For example, if c!=0, then c(-2+2)=c*0=0 whereas c(8+5)=13c != 0.
But when c=0 any values of x and y solve this equation and instead of a line, we have a completely filled plane.
I know you'll want to that if we write y=0x, then we can plot this as y=0 and find a line with respect to an XY plane, but notice that y=0 is simply a constant (if y could vary, then the dimension would exist as a line, but in this case y is nothing different than 0, which is not a line, nor does it possess a single degree of freedom to describe a line). If you select to plot y=0 with respect to some other dimension, such as x, this choice is arbitrary as the x dimension has no influence on the value of x, neither does the z dimension, nor any other dimension and if we can simply append unrelated dimensions to a plot, then we might as well describe y=0 as a cubic relationship because we could plot it with respect to multiple other dimensions until we had enough to construct this unrelated abstraction with cubic properties. Notice that y=x^2 is a second order polynomial relationship, and that y=x^1 is a linear relationship and that y=x^0 is a constant and not linear.
Anyway, the reason why a division by zero is undefined is because it's the inverse of a multiplication by zero which is not actually a multiplication at all because it doesn't perform a linear scaling. The undefined division by zero is just a symptom of a deeper definitional problem.
Oh and again to see it in a more geometric context, if we rotate a line toward us so that it appears as a point, the point no longer is capable of describing the orientation or any other linear properties of the line (such as what segments of it might exist). If you hand the point to someone else, without additional context as to what linear properties "hide behind it", the point itself can't be rotated back to reveal this, and if you're trying to prove that this point specifically representated such a line, then you need to not simply prove the point, but the information regarding the line and the context becomes a pairing of the point as well as supplying the manner in which such a point was derived - an unadorned zero doesn't do this.
Notice also that if we changed our definition of the line segment in x above to be |x|<1 and that |y|<c, then if c becomes 0, we have |x|<1 and |y|<0 and the x dimension doesn't even fit into a point on the y dimension, but vanishes completely (a much more appropriate description of what actually occurs).
Gorgeous
20th July 2008 - 11:41 AM
Reality = whatever exists.
'0' stands for "Does nnot exist".
Therefore, '0' represents non-reality.
g.
prometheus
20th July 2008 - 12:08 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 11:41 AM)
Reality = whatever exists.
'0' stands for "Does nnot exist".
Therefore, '0' represents non-reality.
g.
This is appalling logic. Numbers represent the quantity of a particular object, like 2 apples or 1/2 a cake. 0 simply means there are no objects of the type under discussion. 0 is not somehow something that represents "non-reality" whatever that is.
bm1957
20th July 2008 - 12:08 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 12:41 PM)
Reality = whatever exists.
'0' stands for "Does nnot exist".
Therefore, '0' represents non-reality.
Not even close. 0 is the additive identity for the field of Real numbers.
Sounds like you're joining StevenA in the "I'll make up my own wordy definitions for Math" club.
Gorgeous
20th July 2008 - 04:52 PM
QUOTE (Trickster+)
Numbers represent the quantity of a particular object, like 2 apples or 1/2 a cake.
'0' = no 'quantity' whatsoever, then. = Does not exist.
QUOTE
0 simply means there are no objects of the type under discussion.
Correct. There is nothing for discussion. = Does not exist.
I have not stated anything different, so 'appalling logic' must also apply to yourself, either that or your assessment of 'appalling logic' does not exist, either.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 0 simply means there are no objects of the type under discussion. |
Correct. There is nothing for discussion. = Does not exist.
I have not stated anything different, so 'appalling logic' must also apply to yourself, either that or your assessment of 'appalling logic' does not exist, either.
0 is not somehow something that represents "non-reality" whatever that is.
Non-reality isn't anything at all! ~ This may be where your 'appalling logic' comes from!
QUOTE (bm1957+)
Sounds like you're joining StevenA in the "I'll make up my own wordy definitions for Math" club.
You have certainly 'mis-heard', then. '0' is representitive of 'nothing', i.e. Does not exist... 'Math' or not, if there is no logic involved what is it attempting to represent?
'0' is a symbol; a representation of....?
g.
bm1957
20th July 2008 - 07:24 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE (bm1957+)
Sounds like you're joining StevenA in the "I'll make up my own wordy definitions for Math" club.
You have certainly 'mis-heard', then. '0' is representitive of 'nothing', i.e. Does not exist... 'Math' or not, if there is no logic involved what is it attempting to represent?
'0' is a symbol; a representation of....?
Nope, you've definitely just made up your own wordy definition for 0.
0 is not 'representative' of anything. It is exactly, precisely, no more, no less: the additive identity for the field of Real numbers.
That is necessary and sufficient for the definition of 0 in the context of the discussion of this thread.
buttershug
20th July 2008 - 08:02 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 04:52 PM)
'0' = no 'quantity' whatsoever, then. = Does not exist.
"0" of something means not of whatever it is you are enumerating.
BUT if you are talking of the concept of "0" then you are talking about "0" and not whatever it is you are enumerating.
If you are talking about zero apples in your fridge. Then apples do not exist in your fridge. However you are then talking about apples not about zero.
Gorgeous
20th July 2008 - 10:57 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 20 2008, 08:24 AM)
Nope, you've definitely just made up your own wordy definition for 0.
Nope. Nope. Nope. In every language, whatever the context or the subject, '0' is representitive of 'Does not exist'.
QUOTE
0 is not 'representative' of anything. It is exactly, precisely, no more, no less: the additive identity for the field of Real numbers.
Then, it is the 'additive identity for the field of Real numbers' that YOUR VERSION of '0' represents! ~ And thus it is 'representative' of
something.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 0 is not 'representative' of anything. It is exactly, precisely, no more, no less: the additive identity for the field of Real numbers. |
Then, it is the 'additive identity for the field of Real numbers' that YOUR VERSION of '0' represents! ~ And thus it is 'representative' of
something.
That is necessary and sufficient for the definition of 0 in the context of the discussion of this thread.
So, you agree that OUTSIDE of your personally defined version, '0' is a symbol which is universally accepted as a representation for 'Does not exist'?
QUOTE
"0" of something..
...is an oxymoron.
Are you lot just getting extremely bored again?
g.
prometheus
20th July 2008 - 11:28 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 10:57 PM)
Nope. Nope. Nope. In every language <Irrelevant nonsense removed>
We can stop right here because we aren't discussing language. Zero is a mathematical object and as such has a mathematical definition. To do maths you need to understand what the objects you're using mean otherwise you'll end up going around in circles. Imagine what would happen if you were allowed to use a chainsaw without knowing what the little button on the handle was for.
Gorgeous
20th July 2008 - 11:40 PM
QUOTE
To do maths you need to understand what the objects you're using mean otherwise you'll end up going around in circles. <other wierd dross and trickser-drivel snipped>
That's a strange coincidence, Mr. Trickster. It's exactly the same with Logic!
g.
Karl
20th July 2008 - 11:43 PM
QUOTE (Delia+Jul 17 2008, 07:18 PM)
So what!
"I long ago stopped giving a hoot what idiots think of me. I'd rather mop the floor with, and be disliked by 100 idiots than pander to a single one of them."
The above quote of your signature appears to be a bit of self criticism.
While I agree with that bit of introspection, I have a single request - that you proceed immediately to remove the obscene expressions and profanity that you have posted to my user account in the name of feedback.
You are free to disagree with anything I posted, and you are free to post negative feedback; however you are NOT entitled to the ad hominems and more importantly, the posting of obscenities.
So proceed to remove, or have removed, the offending material.
Gorgeous
20th July 2008 - 11:50 PM
QUOTE
We can stop right here because we aren't discussing language.
Maybe you are trying to say that 'mathematics' is not a form of language?
Who ya gonna fool? ©
g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 05:55 AM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 11:57 PM)
Nope. Nope. Nope. In every language, whatever the context or the subject, '0' is representitive of 'Does not exist'.
In the context of the question (which is surely paramount in your mind as you are typing in this thread, otherwise you would be being extremely disingenuous) the only definition which is required is the math definition. As I said before, the math definition of 0 is both necessary and sufficient to answer this question (otherwise you are being disingenuous).
QUOTE
Then, it is the 'additive identity for the field of Real numbers' that YOUR VERSION of '0' represents! ~ And thus it is 'representative' of something.
Ok, the symbol '0' is representing the additive identity of the field of Reals. But
that is being represented by a binary number in your computer, which is in turn being represented by a grouping of pixels on your screen, which is in turn represented by light waves/photons travelling from your screen to your eye... we could carry on, but yet again you are being dense and disingenuous.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Then, it is the 'additive identity for the field of Real numbers' that YOUR VERSION of '0' represents! ~ And thus it is 'representative' of something. |
Ok, the symbol '0' is representing the additive identity of the field of Reals. But
that is being represented by a binary number in your computer, which is in turn being represented by a grouping of pixels on your screen, which is in turn represented by light waves/photons travelling from your screen to your eye... we could carry on, but yet again you are being dense and disingenuous.
So, you agree that OUTSIDE of your personally defined version, '0' is a symbol which is universally accepted as a representation for 'Does not exist'?

No. This point is logically fallacious; I never personally defined anything.
In the context of the question and this thread, only the math definition is important. As an aside, the math definition is by far and away the most universally accepted definition of '0'.
QUOTE
Are you lot just getting extremely bored again?
Pipe down over there
prometheus
21st July 2008 - 09:16 AM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 20 2008, 11:50 PM)
Maybe you are trying to say that 'mathematics' is not a form of language?
Maybe you can call it a language. Whatever you call it, it's perfectly clear that you don't understand it.
NoCleverName
21st July 2008 - 10:13 AM
G: Originally, mathematics was completely contained within the language of the user ... and I guess that's still true in some remote cultures. So, the power of math was in the words available at the time. Even the ancient Greeks (Archimedes, etc.) largely solved problems "with words". (This was one of the reasons why things like "Zeno's Paradox" remained a paradox --- there was no symbolic math to help).
It was only a few hundred years ago that math developed the symbolic roots that we are familiar with today. And from there on it broke out as its own "language".
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 10:45 AM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 20 2008, 06:55 PM)
In the context of the question (which is surely paramount in your mind as you are typing in this thread, otherwise you would be being extremely disingenuous) the only definition which is required is the math definition. As I said before, the math definition of 0 is both necessary and sufficient to answer this question (otherwise you are being disingenuous).
No disagreement with that. 'In the context of the question' says it all.
QUOTE
Ok, the symbol '0' is representing the additive identity of the field of Reals. But that is being represented by a binary number in your computer, which is in turn being represented by a grouping of pixels on your screen, which is in turn represented by light waves/photons travelling from your screen to your eye... we could carry on, but yet again you are being dense and disingenuous.
The symbol '0' is a representation of that which does not exist. As an aside, calling people 'dense' is no way to convince people of your 'logic'. This kind of abuse is indicative of someone who has to cover up their own fallacious beliefs; rife throughout this forum, as can be observed.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Ok, the symbol '0' is representing the additive identity of the field of Reals. But that is being represented by a binary number in your computer, which is in turn being represented by a grouping of pixels on your screen, which is in turn represented by light waves/photons travelling from your screen to your eye... we could carry on, but yet again you are being dense and disingenuous. |
The symbol '0' is a representation of that which does not exist. As an aside, calling people 'dense' is no way to convince people of your 'logic'. This kind of abuse is indicative of someone who has to cover up their own fallacious beliefs; rife throughout this forum, as can be observed.
I never personally defined anything.
So, this is not you, then...
QUOTE (bm1957 Posted on Today at 8:24 AM+)
"0 is not 'representative' of anything.
It is exactly, precisely, no more, no less: the additive identity for the field of Real numbers."QUOTE
In the context of the question and this thread, only the math definition is important. As an aside, the math definition is by far and away the most universally accepted definition of '0'.
Then why does it need a 'context' in which to 'verify' itself? In fact, why even bother to ask a question anyway, if it is so 'universal'?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In the context of the question and this thread, only the math definition is important. As an aside, the math definition is by far and away the most universally accepted definition of '0'. |
Then why does it need a 'context' in which to 'verify' itself? In fact, why even bother to ask a question anyway, if it is so 'universal'?
Pipe down over there
Sorry, am I disturbing your 'peace'?
The larger problem arises because such things are not defined clearly. This turns into a 'fight' between peoples' versions of what they think 'logic'
should be, according them, or whatever they have allowed themselves to be indoctrinated with. The only REAL logic is something that cannot be
reasonably denied by all people for the goal of common understanding (the purpose of any 'language'). By all means, use '0' in a 'math' context, but it is certainly not the only context, and it is far from 'universal'. If your 'math' does not correlate with whatever is Real, it has no place in any kind of Real description, and will remain simply as someone's 'thought-fart'!.
QUOTE (prometheus Posted on Today at 10:16 PM+)
Maybe you can call it a language. Whatever you call it, it's perfectly clear that you don't understand it.
I understand YOU perfectly. Now you have 'suddenly' changed your mind, having realised that you were wrong, having been publicly proven wrong, and not having the guts to admit it but coming back with some other defensive tripe. You will never advance your understanding while you behave like a silly little boy. You will just have to keep 'believing' whatever the priests of the strings keep feeding you.
QUOTE (NoCleverName Posted on Today at 11:13 PM+)
G: Originally, mathematics was completely contained within the language of the user ... and I guess that's still true in some remote cultures. So, the power of math was in the words available at the time. Even the ancient Greeks (Archimedes, etc.) largely solved problems "with words". (This was one of the reasons why things like "Zeno's Paradox" remained a paradox --- there was no symbolic math to help).
It was only a few hundred years ago that math developed the symbolic roots that we are familiar with today. And from there on it broke out as its own "language".
Thank you, I know this already. It is your friend who needs the history lesson. I am not disputing the role of 'mathematics', but just clearing up some of the fallacious 'logic' that surrounds it. You will not have people like stevenA arguing pointlessly if they can define what is Real and what is not. There will just be 'mathematics' in its correct context; i.e. a context that correctly correlates with Reality as we observe/sense it (empirically).
g.
prometheus
21st July 2008 - 11:17 AM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 10:45 AM)
I understand YOU perfectly. Now you have 'suddenly' changed your mind, having realised that you were wrong, having been publicly proven wrong, and not having the guts to admit it but coming back with some other defensive tripe. You will never advance your understanding while you behave like a silly little boy. You will just have to keep 'believing' whatever the priests of the strings keep feeding you.
You what? I gave a reasonable definition for someone as slow witted as you. The mathematical definition is a better and more concise way to convey what 0 means to people that can understand it.
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 11:18 AM
QUOTE (prometheus+Jul 21 2008, 12:17 AM)
You what? I gave a reasonable definition for someone as slow witted as you. The mathematical definition is a better and more concise way to convey what 0 means to people that can understand it.
Again, all you have is abuse. A dead giveaway, trickster.
g.
NoCleverName
21st July 2008 - 11:47 AM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 10:45 AM)
Thank you, I know this already. It is your friend who needs the history lesson. I am not disputing the role of 'mathematics', but just clearing up some of the fallacious 'logic' that surrounds it. You will not have people like stevenA arguing pointlessly if they can define what is Real and what is not. There will just be 'mathematics' in its
correct context; i.e. a context that correctly correlates with Reality as we observe/sense it (empirically).
g.
This is a dangerously limiting position, as it would seem to admit only an "intuitive" approach. And that, largely, is the standpoint of StevenA, Precursor, et. al.
Strictly speaking, a mathematics based purely on experience would pretty much discard all of geometry as the fundamental objects --- like points and lines --- never truly occur in the "real" world. Then, too, you can have perfectly valid mathematics that follow different sorts of "logic". For example, you could have a math that isn't transitive: i.e., a implies B, B implies C does not mean A implies C. And what about a math where the rules apply --- or don't! --- based on the flip of a coin?
Any of these math systems might describe that outcome of observation far better then intuition and experience. And that is because we experience the "reality of the universe" in an extremely limited domain.
You said that the only "correct" math is that which describes "reality". Perhaps you might want to rephrase that as the only "useful" math is that which describes "reality" (whatever "reality" might be depending on the situation). In any event, math tends to shy away from the metaphysical.
prometheus
21st July 2008 - 12:02 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 11:18 AM)
Again, all you have is abuse. A dead giveaway, trickster.
A dead giveaway of what? You're the one that started the abuse with calling me a trickster.
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 12:06 PM
QUOTE (NoCleverName+Jul 21 2008, 12:47 AM)
This is a dangerously limiting position, as it would seem to admit only an "intuitive" approach. And that, largely, is the standpoint of StevenA, Precursor, et. al.
Strictly speaking, a mathematics based purely on experience would pretty much discard all of geometry as the fundamental objects --- like points and lines --- never truly occur in the "real" world. Then, too, you can have perfectly valid mathematics that follow different sorts of "logic". For example, you could have a math that
isn't transitive: i.e., a implies B, B implies C
does not mean A implies C. And what about a math where the rules apply --- or don't! --- based on the flip of a coin?
Any of these math systems might describe that outcome of observation far better then intuition and experience. And that is because we experience the "reality of the universe" in an
extremely limited domain.
You said that the only "correct" math is that which describes "reality". Perhaps you might want to rephrase that as the only "useful" math is that which describes "reality" (whatever "reality" might be depending on the situation). In any event, math tends to shy away from the metaphysical.
No. The 'intuitve' has merit also. Without it there is no 'science'.
It is the denial of such things that is in error, as is the denial of the 'follow-up', the 'science'.
All I am saying is that we should be wary of which 'context' is which. If you think that 'all is mathematics', this is no different than saying 'all is intuition'. Nothing is 'far better' than anything else. People in the past have arrived at extrememly accurate representations for what is Real, without any 'mathematics' whatsoever. Only that which correlates with Reality can be deemed 'correct' on more than a subjective basis, and the entirety of what is Real cannot be confined to a 'mathematical' description...Unless you are going to quote a 'mathematical' equation for, say, 'love'? ~ Therefore, you must come up with something that at least allows for such things to be encompassed with them.
If you like, we can argue semantics between 'correct' and 'useful', but please point out where you think the incorrect may be of some use?!! ~ Otherwise, where is your 'argument'?
Again, you are really just backing up your friends, isn't this the case?
g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 12:09 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 11:45 AM)
No disagreement with that. 'In the context of the question' says it all.
If you are not replying with the context of the question in mind, then why are you writing in the thread? That is what being disingenuous is.
QUOTE
The symbol '0' is a representation of that which does not exist.
False, that's your own made up wordy definition.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The symbol '0' is a representation of that which does not exist. |
False, that's your own made up wordy definition.
As an aside, calling people 'dense' is no way to convince people of your 'logic'. This kind of abuse is indicative of someone who has to cover up their own fallacious beliefs; rife throughout this forum, as can be observed.
If something is logical, it shouldn't need any 'convincing' of its truth. All that is required is a little integrity and intelligence to see whether or not the logic actually holds.
Denying the definition of 0 because a symbol is required to convey that definition is certainly a dense thing to do. Is this not the line of argument you were taking?
QUOTE
So, this is not you, then...
No, of course I never made that definition up

Do you profess a claim over WSM because you have plastered it over a multitude of threads??? Of course not, that's not how ownership works.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| So, this is not you, then... |
No, of course I never made that definition up

Do you profess a claim over WSM because you have plastered it over a multitude of threads??? Of course not, that's not how ownership works.
Then why does it need a 'context' in which to 'verify' itself?
It doesn't require the context to know the correct definition unless you want to assign a different definition by default (as you do). That's why I pointed you back to the context.
QUOTE
In fact, why even bother to ask a question anyway, if it is so 'universal'?
The answer to the original question is readily available with the correct math and definitions. If the OP didn't know the math and defniitions to use, it is a completely legitimate question to ask!
Your point is like saying: "Why ask something if someone, somewhere, already knows the answer?". Again, disingenuous and dense.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In fact, why even bother to ask a question anyway, if it is so 'universal'? |
The answer to the original question is readily available with the correct math and definitions. If the OP didn't know the math and defniitions to use, it is a completely legitimate question to ask!
Your point is like saying: "Why ask something if someone, somewhere, already knows the answer?". Again, disingenuous and dense.
If your 'math' does not correlate with whatever is Real, it has no place in any kind of Real description,
Why are you using mathematical terms in an argument against the mathematical usage of a math symbol? That's a bit dense, too.
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 12:20 PM
QUOTE
If the OP didn't know the math and defniitions to use, it is a completely legitimate question to ask!
I agree. People are confused over definitions. That was my point, in posting, just to clear up the definitions of '0' from a 'mathematical' point of view over the Real one.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| If the OP didn't know the math and defniitions to use, it is a completely legitimate question to ask! |
I agree. People are confused over definitions. That was my point, in posting, just to clear up the definitions of '0' from a 'mathematical' point of view over the Real one.
If something is logical, it shouldn't need any 'convincing' of its truth. All that is required is a little integrity and intelligence to see whether or not the logic actually holds.
Why, then, does it always take a 'team' loaded with abusive tactics to try and defend each others' errors?
'0' is not just a 'mathematical' term. There are connotations that make it confusing.
g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 12:29 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 01:20 PM)
I agree. People are confused over definitions. That was my point, in posting, just to clear up the definitions of '0' from a 'mathematical' point of view over the Real one.
Again;
Real has a specific mathematical meaning, it adds to the confusion if you use to mean something other than Real numbers.
So, you replied in a thread about a math question something entirely irrelevant to math? Well done, that helped to clear up confusion.
QUOTE
Why, then, does it always take a 'team' loaded with abusive tactics to try and defend each others' errors?
Which errors? And did you not realise that no two of us were actually arguing the same point? I think we were all pointing out different mistakes/flaws you had made.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Why, then, does it always take a 'team' loaded with abusive tactics to try and defend each others' errors? |
Which errors? And did you not realise that no two of us were actually arguing the same point? I think we were all pointing out different mistakes/flaws you had made.
'0' is not just a 'mathematical' term. There are connotations that make it confusing.
Mathematical question, mathematical answers, nil confusion about alternative proposed 'definitions' of zero until you stuck your nose in.
buttershug
21st July 2008 - 02:35 PM
Does the concept of "does not exist", exist?
If so and "0" = that concept then "0" does in fact exist.
NoCleverName
21st July 2008 - 02:47 PM
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 21 2008, 02:35 PM)
Does the concept of "does not exist", exist?
If so and "0" = that concept then "0" does in fact exist.
Well, the "null" set "exists".
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 03:56 PM
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 21 2008, 03:35 AM)
Does the concept of "does not exist", exist?
If so and "0" = that concept then "0" does in fact exist.
Exists only as a concept, just like 'mathematics'.
Confusion abounds because the majority buy in to the fallacy that there are only ever 'two teams', and all we need do is choose between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. You are all actually doing this now ~ trying to make me out as some kind of 'bad guy' when all I am doing is presenting a third option; that of understanding where the confusion lies.
WSM presents this same approach, and is thus confronted with the same air of 'disbelief'. It is 'pro-science', 'pro-evolution' and 'pro-moralistic outlook'. Any 'anti-ness' comes via default of its dedication to true understanding. The PEOPLE of 'WSM' understand what the equations represent, where mere 'believers' only ever in anything 'mainstream' are only ever in a position to copy other peoples' equations, and thus get angry and frustrated (with themselves, actually) when they are proven wrong.
Humans currently
think they are 'logical', (or even worse: 'superior'), but this cannot be so until the work has REALLY been done ~ and I don't mean pleasuring the men in suits so that you get your little bit of paper saying: "Oh, what a good little boy for following our rules you are! ~ Here, have a mint."
g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 04:06 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 04:56 PM)
all I am doing is presenting a thirn option; that of understanding where the confusion lies.
Good God woman, the only thing you are offering to this thread is confusion!
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 04:42 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 21 2008, 05:06 AM)
Good God woman, the only thing you are offering to this thread
is confusion!
Well, I cannot help exposing that which is already inherent within you, sweetie. It's not personal.
Oh, and why do you insist on bringing 'god' into play?
Please stick to the topic in question. There's a good boy.
g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 04:47 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 05:42 PM)
Well, I cannot help exposing that which is already inherent within you, sweetie. It's not personal.
You misunderstand, the only one confused is you.
QUOTE
Please stick to the topic in question.
You mean... maths???
HYPOCRITE!!!
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 04:59 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 21 2008, 05:47 AM)
You misunderstand, the only one confused is you.
No, I'm quite happy with my understanding, I have no 'argument'. Thanks for your concern, though.
g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 05:03 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 05:59 PM)
No, I'm quite happy with my understanding
Hmmm, now why doesn't
that surprise me?
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 05:12 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 21 2008, 06:03 AM)
Hmmm, now why doesn't
that surprise me?
How come YOU are not surprised?
Where's the maths???
HYPOCRITE!!!g.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 05:18 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 06:12 PM)
How come YOU are not surprised?
Where's the maths???
HYPOCRITE!!!
The difference is that I know where my deficiencies lie and I'm studying to improve my understanding.
All you can do is latch onto a crackpot theory which you think will magically answer all your questions and wave goodbye to any integrity you had. Sad really.
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 07:14 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 21 2008, 06:18 AM)
The difference is that I know where my deficiencies lie and I'm studying to improve my understanding.
Yes, of course, that must be it!
At least I'm glad that you are admitting to being a hypocrite. That's a start, sweetie.
QUOTE
All you can do is latch onto a crackpot theory which you think will magically answer all your questions and wave goodbye to any integrity you had. Sad really.
No, it's not so much 'latching on', as understanding how it correlates with that which we empirically observe. If it were in anyway dishonest I would not give it a second glance...speaking of which...as far as 'crackpot theories' go, I can assume you will be tackling 'branes', 'strings', and unnecessary dimensions in the near future?
g.
Karl
21st July 2008 - 07:33 PM
QUOTE (Delia+Jul 17 2008, 07:18 PM)
THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT PHYSORG FORUM TROLL "DELIA" BELIEVES TO QUALIFY AS VALID USER FEEDBACK:
Vacuous cuntbecile!
CLEAR VIOLATION OF FORUM REGULATIONS: - BANNING OF DELIA RECOMMENDED
Delia,
I notice that the obscenity and profanity that you have posted under the pretense of FEEDBACK, in clear violation of the PhysOrg Forum rules has remained unchanged.
What is your problem???
Like I said, if you intend to continue participating on this website:
PROCEED TO REMOVE, OR HAVE REMOVED, THE OFFENDING MATERIAL
Thank you.
bm1957
21st July 2008 - 08:23 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 08:14 PM)
At least I'm glad that you are admitting to being a hypocrite.
Still not understanding? The fact that I know my limitations means I am (to some extent) able to realise when I am out of my depth and not look silly by spouting nonsense about stuff I don't know much about.
QUOTE
No, it's not so much 'latching on', as understanding how it correlates with that which we empirically observe.
If you truly understood it then either:
a. if it is correct you would have been able to explain why
b. if it is not correct you would have dropped it
the fact that neither is true means that you clearly don't understand it,
regardless of whether it is right or not.QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No, it's not so much 'latching on', as understanding how it correlates with that which we empirically observe. |
If you truly understood it then either:
a. if it is correct you would have been able to explain why
b. if it is not correct you would have dropped it
the fact that neither is true means that you clearly don't understand it,
regardless of whether it is right or not.If it were in anyway dishonest I would not give it a second glance
I don't think I've ever said it was dishonest, I wouldn't know the intentions of the Author. However, I'm quite sure that you don't understand enough of it to make an informed guess as to whether it might be dishonest or not.
QUOTE
...speaking of which...as far as 'crackpot theories' go, I can assume you will be tackling 'branes', 'strings', and unnecessary dimensions in the near future?
Assume what you like but you give me far too much credit; that would be at least 5 years of study I would imagine, and I left full-time education a long time ago.
Nope, it's just a drop-out amateur physicist who's making you look silly here. (But you're doing a grand job at helping me, thanks

)
StevenA
21st July 2008 - 09:19 PM
There's a difference in context that appears often overlooked in that having a precise metric and searching a solution space in order to find that none of those precise units exist, gives us none or 0 of those units.
On the other hand, if you believe a result is none/0/nothing because you have no precisely defined unit quantity to determine whether or not any exist is a situation that has reciprocal characteristics - the actual quantity could be anything, but you can't measure any of them, because you don't have a (figurative) ruler to do so.
In either case it might appear as though none of the units can be detected, but in the second case there's no way to prove this is the case (nor does it even have to be true).
Notice that the same thing would be true of non-zero numbers, but the difference is more immediately obvious because when you have some non-zero quantity of something people instinctively recognize it must be in units of something - if someone said the distance between the Earth and the Moon as 17, almost everyone would instinctively recognize that this needs to be in terms of physical units, whereas if someone said the distance between two objects was zero, people more easily overlook the fact that that this distance of zero still requires a metric to measure it (but because 0 meters, 0 inches, 0 feet and 0 miles all appear physically indistinguishable, then 0 itself is considered an adequate response, but notice that we couldn't, for example, pass by an object at 10 feet, then 5 feet and then 0 feet, but rewrite this as simply 0 and expect a continuity to exist across this point if we then moved away from it in different units (0 as a real number is not identical to 0 as an integer, for example), and again, determining that we have precisely zero of something requires a precise ruler to measure it and this implies we could not necessarily measure 0 of something that doesn't logically exist as we'd be unable to sort through such objects to find if any existed or not - this appears to be a paradox, but it may not be).
Gorgeous
21st July 2008 - 09:38 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 21 2008, 09:23 AM)
Still not understanding? The fact that I know my limitations means I am (to some extent) able to realise when I am out of my depth and not look silly by spouting nonsense about stuff I don't know much about.
If you truly understood it then either:
a. if it is correct you would have been able to explain why
b. if it is not correct you would have dropped it
the fact that neither is true means that you clearly don't understand it,
regardless of whether it is right or not.I don't think I've ever said it was dishonest, I wouldn't know the intentions of the Author. However, I'm quite sure that you don't understand enough of it to make an informed guess as to whether it might be dishonest or not.
Assume what you like but you give me far too much credit; that would be at least 5 years of study I would imagine, and I left full-time education a long time ago.
Nope, it's just a drop-out amateur physicist who's making you look silly here. (But you're doing a grand job at helping me, thanks

)
My understanding is still just fine, thanks for your further concern.
I think it is plain who is making themselves 'look silly'. And you have absolutely no idea what I know and what I do not know. Only I know that. ~ Silly boy!

QUOTE
determining that we have precisely zero of something requires a precise ruler to measure it and this implies we could not necessarily measure 0 of something that doesn't logically exist as we'd be unable to sort through such objects to find if any existed or not - this appears to be a paradox, but it may not be
Quite incredible that nobody seems to have a problem with this!
g.
brent.tc
21st July 2008 - 11:45 PM
I wish that for just once you guys could stay on topic, and not try to verbally rape everyone.
The amount of digression in this thread is just beyond me. There is about 1 page of legitimacy, and 4 pages of bickering with scattered on-topic discussion. I did manage to get the answer I was looking for, but that is really not the point. It's like one of you says something, and then another turns around and says "hey! I bet I can be the bigger *** face in this argument, how about I give it a shot!". You guys did manage to stay on the subject of math (for the most part), but...
Anywhoo, thanks for all the help.
bm1957
22nd July 2008 - 11:06 AM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 21 2008, 10:38 PM)
And you have absolutely no idea what I know and what I do not know. Only I know that.
This is exactly my point... assuming that you have a good knowledge of what you do and don't know leads to some very confident people who are actually much more ignorant than they wish to realise.
QUOTE
I wish that for just once you guys could stay on topic, and not try to verbally rape everyone.
The amount of digression in this thread is just beyond me. There is about 1 page of legitimacy, and 4 pages of bickering with scattered on-topic discussion. I did manage to get the answer I was looking for, but that is really not the point. It's like one of you says something, and then another turns around and says "hey! I bet I can be the bigger *** face in this argument, how about I give it a shot!". You guys did manage to stay on the subject of math (for the most part), but...
Anywhoo, thanks for all the help.
My apologies and my word that I shan't reply to any more provocation! I hope that I helped you find the answer, my only justification for arguing such pettiness is that it is to ensure that young lurkers do not get lured into thinking that G's claptrap has any place in science. But I did get a little carried away
Anyway... let's wait to see what insult she comes up with now that she's been guaranteed the last word... do your worst G!
Gorgeous
22nd July 2008 - 11:32 AM
QUOTE (bm1957+Jul 22 2008, 12:06 AM)
This is exactly my point... assuming that you have a good knowledge of what you do and don't know leads to some very confident people who are actually much more ignorant than they wish to realise....
do your worst G!
g.
mott.carl
23rd March 2009 - 07:52 PM
how i can to think at zero number,if it represent nothing.the void or the nothing is linked to the discrete processes of the mind.zero equal void class?
Raphie Frank
25th March 2009 - 05:40 AM
QUOTE (mott.carl+Mar 23 2009, 07:52 PM)
how i can to think at zero number,if it represent nothing.the void or the nothing is linked to the discrete processes of the mind.zero equal void class?
Well, 0/0 as a Google search currently yields no result. so I guess the pop culture "last word" is yet that it is "undefined."
This, as opposed to 0^0 which, apparently, equals 1... by Google search anyway.
Far be it for li'' 'ol me to question how 0^0 = 1, but 0^1 or 0^.0000001 = 0.
If it seems not to be logical when it comes to mathematics, I say "blame the victim," meaning attack as ignorant he or she or whoever does not automatically just swallow such absurd logical inconsistencies as if they were borne from the loins of the Virgin Mary (or religion specific analogue) herself. A good opening line begins something like...
"Well, clearly, you know know nothing of higher mathematics, because if you did you would know..."
Here is what ANA BANANA has to say...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything over itself is equal to one because you can only divide something by itself once. Unless you divide by zero, but then it would be different, zero is an exception.
http://www.friendcodes.com/forums/general-...ar-algebra.html-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, yes... good 'ol zero, the exception that proves the rule. A billion, trillion, zillion gazillion and more other numbers follow along -- in fact, more numbers by far than there are atoms in the universe -- but, not zero. Zero is just special like that...
- RF
P.S.
======================================================
Speaking only for myself, 0/0 = x-bar (0, infinity), with an average value of 1.
======================================================
Raphie Frank
25th March 2009 - 07:18 AM
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Mar 25 2009, 05:40 AM)
P.S.
======================================================
Speaking only for myself, 0/0 = x-bar (0, infinity), with an average value of 1.
======================================================
TO CLARIFY:
1' actually, not 1.
In a METAPHORICAL, not mathematical sense, I use this concept as a symbolic representation for the Ego, or, in a broader sense, to connote a "dividing line" or boundary, one that is relativistic in nature.
1' = infinity/2 = "the self"
- RF
AlphaNumeric
25th March 2009 - 08:58 AM
QUOTE (mott.carl+Mar 23 2009, 08:52 PM)
how i can to think at zero number,if it represent nothing.the void or the nothing is linked to the discrete processes of the mind.zero equal void class?
It's the element which is the identity of the binary operation known as addition. In other words given a group G with binary operation + there's an element e in G such that for any element g in G we have e+g = g+e = g. In the case of the group of integers under addition we call e 'zero'. Extension to rings and fields contained wiith R is trivial.
QUOTE
Ah, yes... good 'ol zero, the exception that proves the rule. A billion, trillion, zillion gazillion and more other numbers follow along -- in fact, more numbers by far than there are atoms in the universe -- but, not zero. Zero is just special like that...
If you'd bothered to learn what a group, ring or field was during the many hours you obviously spend Googling for things like 'triangular number', 'kissing number' and the like, and thus deluding yourself into believing you're somehow doing number theory rather than pointless numerology, then you'd understand why in a field you don't have a multiplicative inverse of the additive identity. But rather than spend some time learning more formal mathematics you waste it doing numerology. Why bother posting on a physics forum, you'd get more responses on an astrology forum.
Raphie Frank
25th March 2009 - 01:44 PM
"Number research," Alphanumeric, not "Number Theory." Please do not assign to me thoughts I do not have and then use incorrect assignation of such thoughts as the basis by which to call me "delusional." While you are at it, please do explain to me the relationship or lack thereof between Mersenne Primes and Kissing Numbers. Feel free to start another thread to do so.
Best,
Raphie
Euler
25th March 2009 - 10:36 PM
I do hope your "Number Research" constitutes more than simply looking for patterns in sequences, or collections of sequences of numbers.
Claim: Given any sequence a(n), there exists an uncountable collection of functions, X, that match the given sequence to an arbitrary length.
Proof: Consider f(n)=a(n)+(n-1)(n-2)....(n-N)g(n), where g:N->R. Then f(n) matches a(n) for the first N terms so is in X. There are an uncountable number of functions, g:N->R, so it follows that X is uncountable.
Corollary: Mathematical statements about sequences of numbers require proof. Observing patterns is trivial and pointless unless you can then go on to prove some statements.
This is why people who know basic mathematics refer to your posts as drivel.
Confused2
26th March 2009 - 01:17 AM
There seems to be an on-going battle between them what generates mildly interesting topics and them what generates pointless insults. Clearly the latter benefit from the existence of the former but the former could quite happily continue to post without the contributions made by the latter.
As it happens I have no immediate need for high quality random numbers .. but if I had I might well be interested in Mersenne Primes - even though (but for RF) I would never have heard of them. As for Kissing Numbers - I have already discarded them as 'unhelpful' but this may change and I can't (of course) speak for anyone else in this matter.
I'm guessing the pointless insult brigade can't predict what the next 'mildly interesting' topic will be - beyond their gut feeling that it shouldn't be allowed to happen - some of us might describe this as the folly (or arrogance) of youth (or immaturity).
-C2.
Beer w/Straw
26th March 2009 - 02:36 AM
QUOTE (Confused2+Mar 26 2009, 01:17 AM)
- some of us might describe this as the folly (or arrogance) of youth (or immaturity).
"A car is travelling at 100 km/h when the brakes are fully applied producing a constant deceleration of 10 m/s2. What is the distance travelled before the car comes to a stop?"
The answer is unimportant, but how iyou ntegrate the information into the correct function to solve for it is. Can you help me?
AlphaNumeric
26th March 2009 - 09:08 AM
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Mar 25 2009, 02:44 PM)
"Number research," Alphanumeric, not "Number Theory." Please do not assign to me thoughts I do not have and then use incorrect assignation of such thoughts as the basis by which to call me "delusional."
You are
not doing number 'research'. Speaking as someone who does research it's
insulting to me for you to call what you do 'research'. Looking at the first 10 numbers in sequences and then guessing various relations with other patterns doesn't research, it's something a school teacher might give a class as an exercise, to help them understand triangular numbers and squared numbers as a prelude to learning things like 'Proof by Induction'. You aren't even bothering to learn things like proof by induction.
For instance, I remember, aged 16, being asked in a class to work out the sum of the first n integers for for n up to and to then guess the pattern. Some people in the class got it, some didn't. Then the teacher showed how to prove it on the blackboard. Then we were asked to do the same but this time for cubes. Low and behold, some people noticed that the sum of the first n cubes was the square of the first n integers! But few people could prove it usiing the induction method we'd just been taught.
Spotting patterns for the well known number sequences is questionable, because patterns seen in the first 8 terms might not be patterns at all, your data set is too small. Only by doing methods like induction can you prove rigorously claims like "
the sum of the first n cubes was the square of the first n integers".
You haven't bothered to learn any of the methods which are
required to prove all these patterns you keep claiming or pointing out that other people have seen (and other people have proven). You keep wanting input on these things but you refuse to learn very powerful (and pretty simple) tools which are
school work. This just demonstrates you want people to think you're well informed on this stuff or that you're a dab hand at maths but in reality you're unwilling to put in any effort or any work for you 'research'. Yesterday I spent 10 hours in the office, 6 of them standing infront of a whiteboard discussing
research with someone and then I came home and worked from 8pm to 2am in an attempt to clarify something for myself and to prove a result.
That is resarch, not going to Sloane's number list and clicking around.
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Mar 25 2009, 02:44 PM)
While you are at it, please do explain to me the relationship or lack thereof between Mersenne Primes and Kissing Numbers. Feel free to start another thread to do so.
I'm not omniscient, I don't do number theory.. However, I'm fully aware that if I did I'd need to do a lot more than just stare at 2 lists of integers, like you do. I'd learn a bunch of methods people use to prove various identities and results and then see if I can apply them to other situations, or even come up with my own methods.
Further more, even if I did know a relation between those two sequences, I'm certain if I posted the proof you'd not understand it. Do you understand how to prove that the sum of the first n cubes was the square of the first n integers? The proof is easy to fiind using Google. If you can't understand that, you are doing nothing but navel gazing when it comes to 'number research' [sic].
Raphie Frank
27th March 2009 - 09:56 AM
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Mar 26 2009, 09:08 AM)
Further more, even if I did know a relation between those two sequences, I'm certain if I posted the proof you'd not understand it. Do you understand how to prove that the sum of the first n cubes was the square of the first n integers?
I'd like you to think about the fact that I know this already and have even posted of it. I didn't read of it anywhere, nor did I "Google" it...
... via the "Patternist" mentality you seem to so despise.
I must have just been right by accident.
Or... perhaps I was right in the same way that the baseball player catches the fly ball without performing a single differential equation in his (or her) head.
I, Alphanumeric, in response to your sense of being "insulted" (see above post), and would it were I could take you seriously, am fundamentally "insulted" by your absolute disrespect for the native intelligence of humankind.
But here is the best part:
Not only did you not answer my question regarding Mersenne Primes and Kissing Numbers, but you somehow, through a rather "magical thinking" approach, managed to turn this lack of knowledge into an attack on me. This is quite lovely, Alphanumeric. Keep the insults coming as at least one of my goals through time is to demonstrate the twisted, VERY unscientific logic of the scientific status quo in action.
Cheers,
Raphie
Euler
27th March 2009 - 10:42 AM
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Mar 27 2009, 09:56 AM)
I'd like you to think about the fact that I know this already and have even posted of it. I didn't read of it anywhere, nor did I "Google" it...
... via the "Patternist" mentality you seem to so despise.
Are you utterly inept? Many times has it been told to you that noticing a pattern in a finite sequence of numbers can mean
infinitely many different things. I have even offered you proof in this thread!
QUOTE (Euler+Mar 25 2009, 10:36 PM)
Claim: Given any sequence a(n), there exists an uncountable collection of functions, X, that match the given sequence to an arbitrary length.
Proof: Consider f(n)=a(n)+(n-1)(n-2)....(n-N)g(n), where g:N->R. Then f(n) matches a(n) for the first N terms so is in X. There are an uncountable number of functions, g:N->R, so it follows that X is uncountable.
Corollary: Mathematical statements about sequences of numbers require proof. Observing patterns is trivial and pointless unless you can then go on to prove some statements.
Spotting a pattern in a sequence is easy. The above proof even gives you a would-be formula to write down a pattern, given any finite sequence of numbers! Meaningful mathematics involves proof, but because you are incapable of even the most simple of mathematical tasks, you fail to provide anything of the sort.
bm1957
27th March 2009 - 12:12 PM
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Mar 27 2009, 10:56 AM)
I'd like you to think about the fact that I know this already and have even posted of it. I didn't read of it anywhere, nor did I "Google" it...
... via the "Patternist" mentality you seem to so despise.
The point is, that without proof, you don't 'know' it, you simply 'believe' it.
Even if you don't the language of maths, to 'know' something, you must at least be able to describe why.
Without the why (which is what you seem to imply with your "Patternist" reference), you are doing no more than when a dog 'knows' it's owner always walks through the door about 2 min after he hears the car... and is then utterly baffled when the mechanic brings the car back from mot and walks through the door! (i.e., the 'knowledge' the dog believes he has is absolutely useless because it is completely without foundations. It is assumption).
Raphie Frank
27th March 2009 - 04:28 PM
QUOTE (bm1957+Mar 27 2009, 12:12 PM)
The point is, that without proof, you don't 'know' it, you simply 'believe' it.
I agree with you bm1957. Just as those researchers "believe" that chimps are capable of making plans. Before the proof comes the hypothesis. Inductive, relational logic and the "art" of approximation fine-tuned through time is a powerful tool (I believe) for generating those hypotheses. But, yes, it can surely be wrong, as is demonstrated repeatedly upon these boards in the form of incorrect interpretation of finite sets of data points related to the human behavior of others, a fancy way of stating that human judgement can be quite flawed.
More later.
Best,
Raphie
Euler
27th March 2009 - 04:44 PM
QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Mar 27 2009, 04:28 PM)
I agree with you bm1957. Just as those researchers "believe" that chimps are capable of making plans.
Completely idiotic analogy. The field of science in which those researchers work does not offer a notion of "proof", in the sense that mathematics does. It can only offer evidence.
Edward 3
27th March 2009 - 04:50 PM
Is mathematics a science?
Beer w/Straw
27th March 2009 - 05:09 PM
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 27 2009, 04:50 PM)
Is mathematics a science?
Yes.
Edward 3
27th March 2009 - 06:01 PM
But, is science not concerned with the study of the natural world whereas mathematics is an abstract system which, on its own, can prove nothing about nature?
Beer w/Straw
27th March 2009 - 06:28 PM
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 27 2009, 06:01 PM)
But, is science not concerned with the study of the natural world whereas mathematics is an abstract system which, on its own, can prove nothing about nature?
Uh...
Did you take a look at the question I asked C2 in this thread?
QUOTE (Beer w/Straw+Mar 26 2009, 02:36 AM)
"A car is travelling at 100 km/h when the brakes are fully applied producing a constant deceleration of 10 m/s2. What is the distance travelled before the car comes to a stop?"
The answer is unimportant, but how iyou ntegrate the information into the correct function to solve for it is. Can you help me?
Could you even name the branch of mathematics were this question arises?
Edward 3
27th March 2009 - 06:36 PM
I was responding to Euler´s last post - what are you so grumpy about ? You were quite happy to respond to my first post but when I made a point that you can´t respond to you decide to get all huffy - will ya chill out - TGIF!!
Euler
27th March 2009 - 06:39 PM
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 27 2009, 06:36 PM)
I was responding to Euler´s last post
I didn't really see what it had to do with my post. It's down to opinion whether you class mathematics as a science. It boils down to how you define "science".
Either way, I don't care too much and it makes not one iota of difference to anything.
Beer w/Straw
27th March 2009 - 06:42 PM
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 27 2009, 06:36 PM)
I was responding to Euler´s last post - what are you so grumpy about ? You were quite happy to respond to my first post but when I made a point that you can´t respond to you decide to get all huffy - will ya chill out - TGIF!!
W T F?

Did you want a philosophical debate?
Ok Here goes: Math is the only science were proofs exist. Since other sciences aren't math, no definite proof can ever come from them.
Edward 3
27th March 2009 - 06:45 PM
You described mathematics as a field of science - not something everybody would agree with - while being dismissive of a recognised scientific field. THAT is what it had to do with your post. You´re another one that needs to lighten up a bit - to hell with it , it´s friday evening , Im going for a pint .. or 4! Cheers
Euler
27th March 2009 - 06:48 PM
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 27 2009, 06:45 PM)
You described mathematics as a field of science - not something everybody would agree with - while being dismissive of a recognised scientific field. THAT is what it had to do with your post. You´re another one that needs to lighten up a bit - to hell with it , it´s friday evening , Im going for a pint .. or 4! Cheers
No, my only reference to science was in connection with the "researchers who proved chimps...". And in no way, whatsoever, was I dismissive of that area of science.
As I said in my last post, it's down to personal opinion whether you classify mathematics as a science, so I don't care too much either way.
Edward 3
27th March 2009 - 06:53 PM
Bw/S
No problem accepting that maths might be a science - as Euler says opinion is divided. But now you say that no other branch of science can offer proof of anything - like experimental physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology? are you serious or just winding me up?
E
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