What you fail to realize is God is not obligated to answer to you.
I didn't say he was, but is it really as clear cut as "If he does, you succeed but without him you're doomed to fail and he's not there because of your faith"? Can we not succeed without God being there? If we are that flawed then God knows we'll fail without him in everything we do. How nice.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 20 2008, 10:24 PM)
Why is it that there are far, far more murders in the U.S. alone in one year than the total number of casualties in the Iraq war since it started?
Why is it that one third of a percent of all U.S. citizens are in prison right this very instant, and that is considering most people are released early because the prisons can't hold them all? Probably as many as 5% of the propulation are CONVICTED felons or misdemeanor, and that's just the ones that get caught.
Because the US is a country of extremes, though I'm just voicing my personal opinion here. I recently went to Philadelphia for a conference. You would think that of all the countries in the world, the UK would be pretty close to the US in culture. We're not, though I'll admit we're moving there. The "If you want it, we'll provide it!" culture is extreme in the US. What fatty greasy food? No problem. Delivered to your door in 30 minutes or less! Then the next advert is "Are you overweight? Get a gastri bypass! Ask your private health care guy because you pay for your medical care through the nose!". I recently got a diabetes test. I walked into a pharmacy, said "I'd like a diabetes test please" and 30 minutes later I'd got one. Free. I just gave my name and my address. It struck me that I would have had to pay probably hundreds of dollars for that in the US. Yet all it involved was 15 minutes of a nurse's time during a quiet day to prick my finger (and take my blood pressure). The US, if you've got the money, provides things so much better but in an extreme way. Similarly with your faith. "If you're not with us, you're against us". Cults occur so much more often in the US. The subject of people's faith is hardly talked about in the UK. And yet despite the "You're going to BURN!" preaching of so many faith people in the US, you have the problems you just outlined. Sure, the UK has problems but a lot less. If anything, the rise in gang culture in the UK is following from the rise in US culture. Police don't carry guns usually here. We still hear about murders on the news. Sure, it seems like a teen stabbing or shooting is occuring once a month now but in a population of 60 million, compare that to the murder rate in just LA!
So your question is a good one. Why is it that, despite being a culture where religion is so much more in your face, does the US have more problems? The UK has always been 'religious' but quiet and reserved. People went to church quietly. A priest was a quiet member of the community you could go round and have a cup of tea with, not a pastor yelling faith healing through a microphone in a football stadium sized church. The UK became quietly more atheist, or at least functioning agnostic, during the 20th century and it's only in recent years we'be followed the US in terms of violent crimes. In rise with the US culture of "I want it now, provide it!" extremes becoming more popular.
On a side note, I wonder what the correlation with violent crimes and the rise of Starbucks is..
Alcari
21st June 2008 - 12:55 PM
If you outline things like murder rate, teen pregnancy or violent crime, (link*), you find religious (and mostly christian) countries are higher on that list then mostly secular countries. Is that because religion makes you kill people? Well, only in part.
It's mostly because of large cultural differences. I'm Dutch, we're mostly a secular country, and we have a very low teen-pregnancy and crime rating, despite the legal prostitution and near-legal soft-drugs. There is a correlation between secularism and low crime rates, but it's proven that one causes the other.
The culture in largely secular countries, like in western Europe, Scandinavia, Japan, Korea and Australia is very different from the culture in the USA. My pet theory is that the competitiveness in the US is a large cause, combined with reduced parenting skills is what's causing it.
It's not proven, and is probably to prove, that religious people are more or less violent or moral then atheists.
* EDIT: AARGH, when am I allowed to post links?
Dr Fred A Wolf
21st June 2008 - 12:57 PM
Dutch huh .... I love the Dutch - great beer and porn - world leaders!
uaafanblog
21st June 2008 - 02:21 PM
Dear Braindead Yahweh,
Thanks for this thread. It's one of the few things you got right. Now you wanker, here's my list:
There are people smarter than me? What the hell chief? That was a big mistake. Pffft ...
Only three useful orifices on females? And half of women exclude fair use of two of them? What exactly were you thinking? It's stupid enough that you gave them "the curse" creating a fortnight every month where we men are subjected to the worst of female behavior ... but you compound that by letting them choose where and when we males can "sex" them? Blargh ....
Exercise? Are you freaking kidding me? I have to maintain this "ugly sack of mostly water" by going to the gym or riding a bike or walking all the time? Why the hell did you invent TV? It would have been simple for you to invent fundamental particles of physics to emanate from the TV resulting in muscle development and metabolism's adequate to our high fat diets? Why didn't you? Not very omnipotent of you! Sigh ....
Snow? Puhlease!?!?! Seriously, what in your name where you thinking? Jackass ...
Farting? Farting??? FARTING???? Not to make too big a deal of it. I sure don't mind a nice healthy release from MY bowels (since I smell like roses) ... but you programmed women to fart too??? Um ... you dumbass ...
Billy Mays yelling at me on TV about Oxyclean? Piss on you for that ...
University of Minnesota Golden Gopher hockey fans? You jerk-off! Listen up chump, there are sooooo many big screw-ups you made ... hurricanes, bumble-bees, tornados, spiders, floods, Cubans, forest fires, mustard, Derek1148, earthquakes, root beer, tsunamis, Quebec, Ann Coulter, Pepsi, Microsoft, etc ... but all of those pale in comparison to the existence of Gopher hockey fans. What did the other 58 teams in college hockey do to piss you off?
Caramel. Ok. This is a bit of an enigmatic gripe. I love it. I can't pass it up. I smell it and salivate. I see it on TV and salivate. I swear it exceeds my unexplained preference for redheads! So I curse you for that you insidious ***.
Uphill? Uphill??? UPHILL?????? What were you thinking? You have it in you to geometrically design everything to have a downhill gradient and yet you stick us with "uphill"? Man ... what a waste of supernatural energy you are!
Alcari
21st June 2008 - 06:55 PM
Also, gravity is really annoying.
I mean, why not limit gravity to, say, 50 meters above the ground? It would make spacetravel so much easier, you could just hold the planets in place with magic.
Speaking of which: why no magic? What's with these annoying laws of nature that we have to adhere to?
And while we're at it, I really like the self-repair feature, but why does it have to be so bloody slow?
FGG
22nd June 2008 - 04:41 AM
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 20 2008, 09:24 PM)
If people are really so "moral", then why is it that you have to train a child to do good, but they will naturally lie, cheat, steal, and even murder?
What children have you been around???
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 20 2008, 09:24 PM)
Why is it that there are far, far more murders in the U.S. alone in one year than the total number of casualties in the Iraq war since it started?
Why is it that there are more murders in the US when it's one of the most religious western countries? Where are your religious moral teaching???
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jun 20 2008, 09:24 PM)
Why is it that one third of a percent of all U.S. citizens are in prison right this very instant, and that is considering most people are released early because the prisons can't hold them all? Probably as many as 5% of the propulation are CONVICTED felons or misdemeanor, and that's just the ones that get caught.
Again if the US is so religious, why is this?? your religious teachings are failing miserably!
You don't seem to have a moral leg to stand on ... as it were.
FGG
FGG
22nd June 2008 - 04:55 AM
QUOTE (newguy+Jun 20 2008, 10:17 PM)
QUOTE (Alcari+)
Obvious starters are...the need for sleep
LOL!!!
I just returned from spending the day at Busch Gardens with my family and my friend and his family. I told him about this supposed "screw-up" and we both chuckled. I think it's pretty safe to say that we both saw hundreds/thousands of parents who "thanked God" that their children would be going to sleep sometime today...whether the parents were theists, atheists or agnostics. You know, in all seriousness, you guys/gals ought to find a better way to spend your time. It's a little tiring/boring to listen to you all bitching about a God that you insist doesn't exist all of the time. Why don't you just start a church? Oh well, back to my vacation...
We are here spending our time defending logic and reason and exposing god for the scam it is because theists are everywhere trying to force there religious beliefs down everyone else's throats. If we didn't feel threatened we would probably not be here!
FGG
PS. Although a good nap now and then is one of the little pleasantries of parenthood for both parents and kids
!
newguy
22nd June 2008 - 12:02 PM
QUOTE (FGG+)
We are here spending our time defending logic and reason and exposing god for the scam it is because theists are everywhere trying to force there religious beliefs down everyone else's throats. If we didn't feel threatened we would probably not be here!
FGG
PS. Although a good nap now and then is one of the little pleasantries of parenthood for both parents and kids
!
FGG: It is not God Who is "the scam", but, rather, a large percentage of those who hypocritically profess to "believe" in Him without the slighest bit of obedience to what He said/says. There is no one on this forum more opposed to "forcing" than me. As I've mentioned repeatedly in the past, God's relationship with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture. Those who seek to "force" God on someone are advocating some sort of "shotgun wedding" that God never ordained. Additionally, those "Christians"(in quotes, deliberately) who spend(waste) their time seeking to "legislate morality"(deadbeat ring a bell?) are doing so without God's backing. Just a simple reading of scripture ought to show ANYONE that when God's law was external, written in two tables of stone(which signified the hard-heartedness of the people to whom it was given...God's so-called "chosen people"), the BIGGEST offenders against this external law were the "religious people" to whom it was given. God's desire has always been for His laws to be internal, written on fleshly tables of the heart. No "legislated morality" from the government can ever bring this to pass. For example, if abortion was outlawed, would people stop having abortions? Very few, I would suggest, at best. Even then, those who withheld from having abortions would most likely be bitter their entire lives, feeling that their child was somehow "forced" upon them. I'm NOT advocating abortion, mind you...I'm simply trying to show how if an individual's HEART is not "into it", then it is of no value whatsoever to the Christian God. As far as your comment about "feeling threatened" is concerned, do you REALLY feel that people like dad1 and deadbeat pose a threat? Dad1 is an absolute idiot and, to my recollection, the only person who ever agreed with anything that dad1 has said is Jeremy Fisher and he's a sockpuppet of one of the atheists on this forum. At the same time, although deadbeat shows some signs of intelligence, he's just here to argue his same old nonsense about "religion". If deadbeat was ever taken serious in the public square, then I can assure you that I would be the first person to take him on publicly. What am I saying then? Simply this. If you really "feel threatened", then why not fight against those who might actually be taken seriously in the public square? You're only "fueling the fire" by engaging in conversation with people like dad1 and deadbeat. Anyhow, just my two cents after a nice little nap of my own.
Take care.
DuzmA
22nd June 2008 - 01:59 PM
Newguy,
you are one of the few creationists on this forum that doesn't seem that bad. I feel bad for you that you place trust in ancient texts based on myth and wishful thinking. Were you born into it or forced into it by trauma?
uaafanblog
22nd June 2008 - 03:05 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Jun 22 2008, 12:02 PM)
As I've mentioned repeatedly in the past, God's relationship with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture. Those who seek to "force" God on someone are advocating some sort of "shotgun wedding" that God never ordained. Additionally, those "Christians"(in quotes, deliberately) who spend(waste) their time seeking to "legislate morality"(deadbeat ring a bell?) are doing so without God's backing. Just a simple reading of scripture ought to show ANYONE that when God's law was external, written in two tables of stone(which signified the hard-heartedness of the people to whom it was given...God's so-called "chosen people"), the BIGGEST offenders against this external law were the "religious people" to whom it was given. God's desire has always been for His laws to be internal, written on fleshly tables of the heart. No "legislated morality" from the government can ever bring this to pass. For example, if abortion was outlawed, would people stop having abortions? Very few, I would suggest, at best. Even then, those who withheld from having abortions would most likely be bitter their entire lives, feeling that their child was somehow "forced" upon them. I'm NOT advocating abortion, mind you...I'm simply trying to show how if an individual's HEART is not "into it", then it is of no value whatsoever to the Christian God. As far as your comment about "feeling threatened" is concerned, do you REALLY feel that people like dad1 and deadbeat pose a threat? Dad1 is an absolute idiot and, to my recollection, the only person who ever agreed with anything that dad1 has said is Jeremy Fisher and he's a sockpuppet of one of the atheists on this forum. At the same time, although deadbeat shows some signs of intelligence, he's just here to argue his same old nonsense about "religion". If deadbeat was ever taken serious in the public square, then I can assure you that I would be the first person to take him on publicly. What am I saying then? Simply this. If you really "feel threatened", then why not fight against those who might actually be taken seriously in the public square? You're only "fueling the fire" by engaging in conversation with people like dad1 and deadbeat. Anyhow, just my two cents after a nice little nap of my own.
Take care.
QUOTE
FGG: It is not God Who is "the scam", but, rather, a large percentage of those who hypocritically profess to "believe" in Him without the slighest bit of obedience to what He said/says. There is no one on this forum more opposed to "forcing" than me.
Excuse me but there is no way you are more opposed than I.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| FGG: It is not God Who is "the scam", but, rather, a large percentage of those who hypocritically profess to "believe" in Him without the slighest bit of obedience to what He said/says. There is no one on this forum more opposed to "forcing" than me. |
Excuse me but there is no way you are more opposed than I.
God's desire has always been for His laws to be internal, written on fleshly tables of the heart ...
I have no objection to anything else you've said except this statement. You cannot speak for "God's desire". It is exactly that sort of presumptive knowing that virtually every single Xtian uses that (I've ever come across) invalidates your positions as to what your mythology teaches. By definition of your own book your "god" is unknowable. That fact in itself invalidates huge portions of the dogma that Xtians routinely teach. Personification of your deity is a fool's errand yet 99 percent of Xtians do exactly that. They attribute characteristics to a supernatural being that according to their definition defies characterization. It's beautifully funny in an ironic way.
The only Xtian worth his/her salt is one that keeps ENTIRELY to his or herself regarding their beliefs. Any other path is essentially a violation of their own tenets. I would never have a problem with anyone who adhered to that sort of belief. But as far as I'm concerned, ANY Xtian (or for that matter Jew or Muslim) professing ANY knowledge about Yahweh's intentions, feelings and/or characteristics is a hypocrite to their own belief structure. And hypocrites should always be exposed; especially when they are espousing their hypocrisy in public.
So what am I saying? I'm saying that EVERY single "believer" in the God of Abraham ought to shut their mouth and go about their lives. And until they do I can only hope there are enough people who see their hypocrisy to put them in their place.
newguy
22nd June 2008 - 03:22 PM
QUOTE (uaafanblog+)
By definition of your own book your "god" is unknowable.
uaafanblog: Baloney. Haven't we been through this before? The Bible does NOT teach that God is "unknowable".
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."(Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Under the "new covenant" or New Testament, God's laws are to be written in the heart and ALL shall know Him. Gee, whattaya know...that's just what I said.
DuzmA: I'll answer your question later on. I am on vacation and I've got some things scheduled with my wife and children.
FGG
22nd June 2008 - 04:13 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Jun 22 2008, 12:02 PM)
QUOTE (FGG+)
We are here spending our time defending logic and reason and exposing god for the scam it is because theists are everywhere trying to force there religious beliefs down everyone else's throats. If we didn't feel threatened we would probably not be here!
FGG
PS. Although a good nap now and then is one of the little pleasantries of parenthood for both parents and kids
!
FGG: It is not God Who is "the scam", but, rather, a large percentage of those who hypocritically profess to "believe" in Him without the slighest bit of obedience to what He said/says. There is no one on this forum more opposed to "forcing" than me. As I've mentioned repeatedly in the past, God's relationship with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture. Those who seek to "force" God on someone are advocating some sort of "shotgun wedding" that God never ordained. Additionally, those "Christians"(in quotes, deliberately) who spend(waste) their time seeking to "legislate morality"(deadbeat ring a bell?) are doing so without God's backing. Just a simple reading of scripture ought to show ANYONE that when God's law was external, written in two tables of stone(which signified the hard-heartedness of the people to whom it was given...God's so-called "chosen people"), the BIGGEST offenders against this external law were the "religious people" to whom it was given. God's desire has always been for His laws to be internal, written on fleshly tables of the heart. No "legislated morality" from the government can ever bring this to pass. For example, if abortion was outlawed, would people stop having abortions? Very few, I would suggest, at best. Even then, those who withheld from having abortions would most likely be bitter their entire lives, feeling that their child was somehow "forced" upon them. I'm NOT advocating abortion, mind you...I'm simply trying to show how if an individual's HEART is not "into it", then it is of no value whatsoever to the Christian God. As far as your comment about "feeling threatened" is concerned, do you REALLY feel that people like dad1 and deadbeat pose a threat? Dad1 is an absolute idiot and, to my recollection, the only person who ever agreed with anything that dad1 has said is Jeremy Fisher and he's a sockpuppet of one of the atheists on this forum. At the same time, although deadbeat shows some signs of intelligence, he's just here to argue his same old nonsense about "religion". If deadbeat was ever taken serious in the public square, then I can assure you that I would be the first person to take him on publicly. What am I saying then? Simply this. If you really "feel threatened", then why not fight against those who might actually be taken seriously in the public square? You're only "fueling the fire" by engaging in conversation with people like dad1 and deadbeat. Anyhow, just my two cents after a nice little nap of my own.
Take care.
Newguy,
Your damn right I feel threatened! There are religious nut-bags trying to get their voo-doo crap taught in our schools, They are holding back medical and scientific progress! Our leaders are holding back medical treatment for disease because they think making STD less prevalent would increase the amount of premarital sex in our country. So thousands of people die every year so our leaders can impose their immoral religious beliefs on the rest of us!
Our founding fathers were very explicit that they did not want any, repeat ANY religion supported by the state! Now we have large numbers of religious groups trying to push their agenda on the American public. God IS the scam! It's the one idea that is that is constant among all religions, so yes god is the scam!
IMO one of the reasons the US has taken steps backwards in the last few decades is the rise in the acceptance of religious dogma over the logic and reason of science. Evolution is only an example of the overwhelming evidence that people are willing to ignore/overlook because it seems to contridict their unsubstantiated beliefs. This is ludicrous and need to be irradiated. The tolerance of this type of behavior is the greatest threat IMO! A much greater threat in the long run then the tolerance the German people had of the Nazi's.
Your interpretation of "god's desire" is simply one of an infinate number of interpretations possible for the bible. People read the bible and get out of it only what supports their preconceptions going in. The violence and immoral teachings in the bible are justified or ignored to suite the readers beliefs.
FGG
newguy
22nd June 2008 - 06:36 PM
QUOTE (FGG+)
Your damn right I feel threatened! There are religious nut-bags trying to get their voo-doo crap taught in our schools, They are holding back medical and scientific progress! Our leaders are holding back medical treatment for disease because they think making STD less prevalent would increase the amount of premarital sex in our country. So thousands of people die every year so our leaders can impose their immoral religious beliefs on the rest of us!
Our founding fathers were very explicit that they did not want any, repeat ANY religion supported by the state! Now we have large numbers of religious groups trying to push their agenda on the American public. God IS the scam! It's the one idea that is that is constant among all religions, so yes god is the scam!
FGG: No need for all of the exclamation points. As far as what is being taught in our GOVERNMENT RUN schools is concerned, as many people on this forum are already aware, I don't believe that should be of any concern to Christians. Personally, I homeschool my children...an option that is available to anyone who doesn't like what transpires within the GOVERNMENT RUN classrooms...whatever that dislike might be(sexual relations between teachers and students, killings, drugs, peer pressure, curriculum, etc.). I've asked NUMEROUS professing Christians to show me anywhere in scripture where God instructs His people to ship off their children to school to let others teach them. To this day, not one professing Christian has been able to answer my question. In fact, just yesterday, a friend of mine who spent part of his vacation with me and my family(he and his family went home this morning) started bitching about what was taking place in our "ungodly" classrooms. I asked him, pointblank, where God ever instructed him to send his children to GOVERNMENT RUN schools and all I got was a blank stare. Where medical treatment is concerned, my own personal belief is that any Christian who can't GENUINELY offer people God's alternative(Divine healing) ought to be bemoaning their own inadequacies and not be worried about what others are doing DUE TO THEIR IMPOTENCY. In other words, professing Christians either need to GENUINELY put up or shut up. Lastly, as most people should know by now, I am NOT among the number of those who believe that this nation(USA) was ever/presently is a Christian nation. What am I saying then? The same thing that I told you earlier...
God is NOT "the scam"...misrepresenters of Him are.
FGG
22nd June 2008 - 08:59 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Jun 22 2008, 06:36 PM)
QUOTE (FGG+)
Your damn right I feel threatened! There are religious nut-bags trying to get their voo-doo crap taught in our schools, They are holding back medical and scientific progress! Our leaders are holding back medical treatment for disease because they think making STD less prevalent would increase the amount of premarital sex in our country. So thousands of people die every year so our leaders can impose their immoral religious beliefs on the rest of us!
Our founding fathers were very explicit that they did not want any, repeat ANY religion supported by the state! Now we have large numbers of religious groups trying to push their agenda on the American public. God IS the scam! It's the one idea that is that is constant among all religions, so yes god is the scam!
FGG: No need for all of the exclamation points. As far as what is being taught in our GOVERNMENT RUN schools is concerned, as many people on this forum are already aware, I don't believe that should be of any concern to Christians. Personally, I homeschool my children...an option that is available to anyone who doesn't like what transpires within the GOVERNMENT RUN classrooms...whatever that dislike might be(sexual relations between teachers and students, killings, drugs, peer pressure, curriculum, etc.). I've asked NUMEROUS professing Christians to show me anywhere in scripture where God instructs His people to ship off their children to school to let others teach them. To this day, not one professing Christian has been able to answer my question. In fact, just yesterday, a friend of mine who spent part of his vacation with me and my family(he and his family went home this morning) started bitching about what was taking place in our "ungodly" classrooms. I asked him, pointblank, where God ever instructed him to send his children to GOVERNMENT RUN schools and all I got was a blank stare. Where medical treatment is concerned, my own personal belief is that any Christian who can't GENUINELY offer people God's alternative(Divine healing) ought to be bemoaning their own inadequacies and not be worried about what others are doing DUE TO THEIR IMPOTENCY. In other words, professing Christians either need to GENUINELY put up or shut up. Lastly, as most people should know by now, I am NOT among the number of those who believe that this nation(USA) was ever/presently is a Christian nation. What am I saying then? The same thing that I told you earlier...
God is NOT "the scam"...misrepresenters of Him are.
A pyramid scam is a pyramid scam! Not a scam misrepresenting a pyramid! As god is the common element in all religious scams (which ALL RELIGIONS really are). In other words, Religion itself is the scam of god! Therefore it is god that is the scam of all religions.
As you can see I don't separate your god from your religious practices (or of others). Since god DME, it's all self-contained within the perpetrator (ie. the religious that try to "spread the word of god").
FGG
Gorgeous
22nd June 2008 - 11:35 PM
'..the scam of god'
g.
Sinister Utopia
22nd June 2008 - 11:40 PM
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jun 22 2008, 11:35 PM)
'..the scam of god'
g.
Or in the case of certain posters on this site:
'Spam of God'
Gorgeous
22nd June 2008 - 11:51 PM
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Jun 22 2008, 12:40 PM)
Or in the case of certain posters on this site:
'Spam of God'
That's the one!
g.
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