“It often happens that a non-Christian knows a thing or two about the earth, the sky, the various elements of the world, about the movement and revolution of the stars and even their size and distance, about the nature of animals, shrubs, rocks, and the like, and maintains this knowledge with sure reason and experience. It is offensive and ruinous, something to be avoided at all cost, for a nonbeliever to hear a Christian talking about these things as though with Christian writings as his source, and yet so nonsensically and with such obvious error that the nonbeliever can hardly keep from laughing.
“The trouble is not so much that the erring fellow is laughed at but that our authors are believed by outsiders to have held those same opinions and so are despised and rejected as untutored men, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil…How are they going to believe our books concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven when they think they are filled with fallacious writing about things which they know from experience or sure calculation?
“There is no telling how much harm these rash and presumptuous people bring upon their more prudent brethren when they begin to be caught and argued down by those who are not bound by the authority of our Scriptures, and when they then try to defend their flippant, rash, and obviously erroneously statements by quoting a shower of words from those same Sacred Scriptures, even citing from memory those passages which they think support their case, ‘without understanding either what they are saying or things about which they make assertions’ (I Tim. 1:7)”
St. Augustine 400AD
Do Creationists do more harm than good to their stated goal of converting others to their belief?
The ease or difficulty with which one can ridicule an idea is a reflection of the character/strength of the idea.
Witness the feckless attempts of those ID promoters here versus the always strident support of reason.
Thanks for the addition to my signature line.
Witness the feckless attempts of those ID promoters here versus the always strident support of reason.
Thanks for the addition to my signature line.
Hi Grumpy
Not quite sure where you're going there, but personally, I dislike that both Christians and non-Christians feel the need to take a position and then defend it at all costs. Both sides have equal blame in this regard and make level discussion in a neutral manner impossible.
i have made numerous attempts in the science forum as well as the religious threads to begin dialogues which inevitably end in frustration. Perhaps being 'wrong' is just too much for people to accept on either hand.Certainly, any post that is found to be incorrect or inconsistent in the science threads is pounced upon by anyone who feels they have a more precise answer.
in religious discussion , there is an element that no one in science admits to using within their discipline......Faith.....However, there are so many "what ifs" still present within science today that even the most quantified works rely on the base sums as being correct..."by faith"...
For instance....I argued against 'infinity'.....There was absolutely no way that any one could prove that the universe is infinite..It is an assumption that is accepted and acceptable. Not because anyone can prove it, but because it is the best they have.
The flip side here is that many calculations being made assume infinity...which is in fact a form of faith, and yet it nothing will shift this belief until some one uses math to dispel the belief. Since math is the one keeping it there (because it is a useful tool), the universe,time and space will be seen to go on and on.
Since I am not a mathematician, I simply use logic...Because I can measure anything at all....I can not be part on an infinite string.
However , I am not here to use your thread to argue that . It's just an example. I have also argued that creation can be written about in retrospect. I find it laughable how many people are content to spend huge amounts of argument in "time travel" but not realize that much of the prophecy in the bible mimics a form of time / space transfer.
"no, no, no, Prophecy cannot be scientific......heck no!....Religion had this first....Time travel is a religious concept...LOL....
Cheers
Iseason
Not quite sure where you're going there, but personally, I dislike that both Christians and non-Christians feel the need to take a position and then defend it at all costs. Both sides have equal blame in this regard and make level discussion in a neutral manner impossible.
i have made numerous attempts in the science forum as well as the religious threads to begin dialogues which inevitably end in frustration. Perhaps being 'wrong' is just too much for people to accept on either hand.Certainly, any post that is found to be incorrect or inconsistent in the science threads is pounced upon by anyone who feels they have a more precise answer.
in religious discussion , there is an element that no one in science admits to using within their discipline......Faith.....However, there are so many "what ifs" still present within science today that even the most quantified works rely on the base sums as being correct..."by faith"...
For instance....I argued against 'infinity'.....There was absolutely no way that any one could prove that the universe is infinite..It is an assumption that is accepted and acceptable. Not because anyone can prove it, but because it is the best they have.
The flip side here is that many calculations being made assume infinity...which is in fact a form of faith, and yet it nothing will shift this belief until some one uses math to dispel the belief. Since math is the one keeping it there (because it is a useful tool), the universe,time and space will be seen to go on and on.
Since I am not a mathematician, I simply use logic...Because I can measure anything at all....I can not be part on an infinite string.
However , I am not here to use your thread to argue that . It's just an example. I have also argued that creation can be written about in retrospect. I find it laughable how many people are content to spend huge amounts of argument in "time travel" but not realize that much of the prophecy in the bible mimics a form of time / space transfer.
"no, no, no, Prophecy cannot be scientific......heck no!....Religion had this first....Time travel is a religious concept...LOL....
Cheers
Iseason
QUOTE (iseason+May 3 2009, 10:12 AM)
Hi Grumpy
For instance....I argued against 'infinity'.....There was absolutely no way that any one could prove that the universe is infinite..It is an assumption that is accepted and acceptable. Not because anyone can prove it, but because it is the best they have.
Cheers
Iseason
Edgar Allen Poe of all people proved that the Universe is not infinite.
You took it on faith that it's believed the Universe is infinite.
The faith based followers number one way to promote their views is to make assumptions on what science based people are sayind and not check what the science based person is saying.
Most of the arguements against Evolution are against things Evolution doesn't actually say.
And no matter how you slice it, faith based is ignorance based reasoning. (and taking pride in it.)
edit And read Dune. Biblical Prophesy is not time travel based. It is gimmic based. Find a prophesy then make it come true.
edit 2:
Infinity is a concept. The concept exists, therefor infinitiy exists.
1/0 is infinity.
For instance....I argued against 'infinity'.....There was absolutely no way that any one could prove that the universe is infinite..It is an assumption that is accepted and acceptable. Not because anyone can prove it, but because it is the best they have.
Cheers
Iseason
Edgar Allen Poe of all people proved that the Universe is not infinite.
You took it on faith that it's believed the Universe is infinite.
The faith based followers number one way to promote their views is to make assumptions on what science based people are sayind and not check what the science based person is saying.
Most of the arguements against Evolution are against things Evolution doesn't actually say.
And no matter how you slice it, faith based is ignorance based reasoning. (and taking pride in it.)
edit And read Dune. Biblical Prophesy is not time travel based. It is gimmic based. Find a prophesy then make it come true.
edit 2:
Infinity is a concept. The concept exists, therefor infinitiy exists.
1/0 is infinity.
I guess the answer depends on what you think their cause is!
iseason
There is no room for faith, as religionists use the word, in scientific inquiry. There is faith that the Universe is knowable, that it follows the laws of nature and that these laws apply everywhere, but not faith in the unknown, or faith because it has been said or written. To be accepted in science it must be testable, falsifiable and able to be supported by the evidence.
There is no room for faith, as religionists use the word, in scientific inquiry. There is faith that the Universe is knowable, that it follows the laws of nature and that these laws apply everywhere, but not faith in the unknown, or faith because it has been said or written. To be accepted in science it must be testable, falsifiable and able to be supported by the evidence.
For instance....I argued against 'infinity'.....There was absolutely no way that any one could prove that the universe is infinite..It is an assumption that is accepted and acceptable. Not because anyone can prove it, but because it is the best they have.
It is not faith, it is acceptance(provisionally) based on the known data.
Math reaches certainty only by being able to specify initial conditions. There is no such certainty in the real world. I, too, doubt that infinities exist in, say, the collapse of Black Holes. I do not think a singularity can actually exist, even though our math points to their existence. There are almost certainly things that happen there that we do not yet know, and these things are thus not included in our calculations. Most scientists will tell you the same thing. I think that, like a vacuum, nature abhors infinities(and singularities) and something will prevent their formation. For example, in Newtonian understanding, infinite acceleration for infinite time leads to infinite speed, Einstein found that this is impossible.
As to Time travel, we seem to be on a one way trip in this Universe. We can alter the rate we experience it(and that alteration of the rate is real), but we cannot reverse it.
Grumpy
A biblical worldview agrees with Genesis 1:1
KJV "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (I used the KJV because it's public domain.)
Molecules to man evolution/Darwinism - Sees a physical process for organisms change over time.
One is based on hearsay stories.
The other is based on repeatable observations.
QUOTE
in religious discussion , there is an element that no one in science admits to using within their discipline......Faith.....However, there are so many "what ifs" still present within science today that even the most quantified works rely on the base sums as being correct..."by faith"...
There is no room for faith, as religionists use the word, in scientific inquiry. There is faith that the Universe is knowable, that it follows the laws of nature and that these laws apply everywhere, but not faith in the unknown, or faith because it has been said or written. To be accepted in science it must be testable, falsifiable and able to be supported by the evidence.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| in religious discussion , there is an element that no one in science admits to using within their discipline......Faith.....However, there are so many "what ifs" still present within science today that even the most quantified works rely on the base sums as being correct..."by faith"... |
There is no room for faith, as religionists use the word, in scientific inquiry. There is faith that the Universe is knowable, that it follows the laws of nature and that these laws apply everywhere, but not faith in the unknown, or faith because it has been said or written. To be accepted in science it must be testable, falsifiable and able to be supported by the evidence.
For instance....I argued against 'infinity'.....There was absolutely no way that any one could prove that the universe is infinite..It is an assumption that is accepted and acceptable. Not because anyone can prove it, but because it is the best they have.
It is not faith, it is acceptance(provisionally) based on the known data.
QUOTE
The flip side here is that many calculations being made assume infinity...which is in fact a form of faith, and yet it nothing will shift this belief until some one uses math to dispel the belief.
Math reaches certainty only by being able to specify initial conditions. There is no such certainty in the real world. I, too, doubt that infinities exist in, say, the collapse of Black Holes. I do not think a singularity can actually exist, even though our math points to their existence. There are almost certainly things that happen there that we do not yet know, and these things are thus not included in our calculations. Most scientists will tell you the same thing. I think that, like a vacuum, nature abhors infinities(and singularities) and something will prevent their formation. For example, in Newtonian understanding, infinite acceleration for infinite time leads to infinite speed, Einstein found that this is impossible.
As to Time travel, we seem to be on a one way trip in this Universe. We can alter the rate we experience it(and that alteration of the rate is real), but we cannot reverse it.
Grumpy
QUOTE (buttershug+May 3 2009, 02:18 PM)
1/0 is infinity.
Quote Grumpy
"There is no such certainty in the real world. I, too, doubt that infinities exist in, say, the collapse of Black Holes. I do not think a singularity can actually exist, even though our math points to their existence."
I agree - is it not simply the case that maths posits a whole range of possibilities, but only a limited set of these exist in Nature? Can we reasonably speculate that the natural world is a subset of all that is comprehended by maths? In fact, should we not deal with singularities and infinites by pragmatically deciding that Nature does not extend into these extremes - rather than trying to force these mathematical constructs into the physical world?
"There is no such certainty in the real world. I, too, doubt that infinities exist in, say, the collapse of Black Holes. I do not think a singularity can actually exist, even though our math points to their existence."
I agree - is it not simply the case that maths posits a whole range of possibilities, but only a limited set of these exist in Nature? Can we reasonably speculate that the natural world is a subset of all that is comprehended by maths? In fact, should we not deal with singularities and infinites by pragmatically deciding that Nature does not extend into these extremes - rather than trying to force these mathematical constructs into the physical world?
QUOTE (Derek1148+May 3 2009, 07:04 PM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero
1/0 can't be assigned a value.
Inifitnity is not a value.
1/0 can't be assigned a value.
Inifitnity is not a value.
QUOTE (buttershug+May 3 2009, 02:18 PM)
Edgar Allen Poe of all people proved that the Universe is not infinite.
Did he? I thought he wrote a good essay. Perhaps I haven't read the proof?
Did he? I thought he wrote a good essay. Perhaps I haven't read the proof?
Poe was a great writer. But I'm not familiar with his proof.
Poe expanded on Olbers' Paradox in some of his writings why the night sky is not uniformly luminous. Since that time we have among other theories Hubble's law to explain why we would not see light from many of the stars or galaxies in the night sky.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 3 2009, 11:59 PM)
Poe expanded on Olbers' Paradox in some of his writings why the night sky is not uniformly luminous. Since that time we have among other theories Hubble's law to explain why we would not see light from many of the stars or galaxies in the night sky.
yeah, Hubble showed the Universe is not infinite and infinitely old.
What I'm saying is that science does not say that the Universe is infinite.
So Iseason "won" a typical hollow battle.
I would love to know why he thinks that science (since Hubble anyways) thinks the Universe is infinite.
And I hope at least Grumpy realised there is no contradiction between what he said about nothing being infinite and my saying infinity is a concept and therefore exists.
There may be no physical manifestation of it, but the concept exists.
yeah, Hubble showed the Universe is not infinite and infinitely old.
What I'm saying is that science does not say that the Universe is infinite.
So Iseason "won" a typical hollow battle.
I would love to know why he thinks that science (since Hubble anyways) thinks the Universe is infinite.
And I hope at least Grumpy realised there is no contradiction between what he said about nothing being infinite and my saying infinity is a concept and therefore exists.
There may be no physical manifestation of it, but the concept exists.
buttershug
The concept of infinities, sure. As I said, these infinities flow from the stated precepts in logic and in math. My point is that the imperical world always has initial conditions that cannot be completely known or precisely measured, as well as imperfections and random chance, and even new laws that pertain to new conditions. Uncertainty, relativity, etc. Infinities may not be entirely unknown in the real world, but they seem to be exceedingly rare.
Grumpy
The concept of infinities, sure. As I said, these infinities flow from the stated precepts in logic and in math. My point is that the imperical world always has initial conditions that cannot be completely known or precisely measured, as well as imperfections and random chance, and even new laws that pertain to new conditions. Uncertainty, relativity, etc. Infinities may not be entirely unknown in the real world, but they seem to be exceedingly rare.
Grumpy
Hi All
Sorry grumpy. I seem to have stolen your thread as an infinity argument....That was not my intention.
i wanted to point to something which is commonly stated by learned person in this very forum quite often, despite it not being proven.... And is therefore a belief...
Please don't ask me to go and find examples . just look at the infinity thread and you will see how much argument there was in favor of infinity and an infinite universe.
Back to Grumpy's premise. Christianity /Religion suffers from the same breakdown of speculative meanderings as does science. It is just soooo much easier to cross into the super spiritual and unprovable truths. The church has spent a great deal of energy in making the super spiritual much more available in pulpit preaching styles. As a result, most religious folk have a very good pool of "catch phrases " that they can parrot in any given argument.
But don't stop there...!... look to the 40's till modern day television and movie hits. You will find that the best selling lines are based around ghosts, Goblins, murder and mayhem...You may have even taken time out of studying serious subjects to see a few. What I am getting at is that people use whatever imagination in the directions which give them the best return....Here in this forum , I have seen Wonderful lines between Christian and non-christian posters that shows that each is enjoying the others banter even though they are clawing each others eyes out. (so to speak).
I take little notice of this and leave such conversations. However, because I asked to receive notifications , sometimes I return without actually posting, just to see who is scoring. (yes, I admit to being a voyeur sometimes)......The problem is that when you want to have a serious conversation, sometimes , the other poster just doesn't get it.
In many cases this is going to be reflected in that person's everyday behavior anyway, so it's a bit hard to take it personally.......Actually, I was pleasantly surprised to see this thread hadn't degraded in the usual fashion...
well done guys.
Cheers
Iseason
Sorry grumpy. I seem to have stolen your thread as an infinity argument....That was not my intention.
i wanted to point to something which is commonly stated by learned person in this very forum quite often, despite it not being proven.... And is therefore a belief...
Please don't ask me to go and find examples . just look at the infinity thread and you will see how much argument there was in favor of infinity and an infinite universe.
Back to Grumpy's premise. Christianity /Religion suffers from the same breakdown of speculative meanderings as does science. It is just soooo much easier to cross into the super spiritual and unprovable truths. The church has spent a great deal of energy in making the super spiritual much more available in pulpit preaching styles. As a result, most religious folk have a very good pool of "catch phrases " that they can parrot in any given argument.
But don't stop there...!... look to the 40's till modern day television and movie hits. You will find that the best selling lines are based around ghosts, Goblins, murder and mayhem...You may have even taken time out of studying serious subjects to see a few. What I am getting at is that people use whatever imagination in the directions which give them the best return....Here in this forum , I have seen Wonderful lines between Christian and non-christian posters that shows that each is enjoying the others banter even though they are clawing each others eyes out. (so to speak).
I take little notice of this and leave such conversations. However, because I asked to receive notifications , sometimes I return without actually posting, just to see who is scoring. (yes, I admit to being a voyeur sometimes)......The problem is that when you want to have a serious conversation, sometimes , the other poster just doesn't get it.
In many cases this is going to be reflected in that person's everyday behavior anyway, so it's a bit hard to take it personally.......Actually, I was pleasantly surprised to see this thread hadn't degraded in the usual fashion...
well done guys.
Cheers
Iseason
The ugly creationist model of reality, so called “intelligent design” BS, is based on “biblical inerrancy” a perverted literal interpretation of the King James version of the Bible. They pay no attention to other literature and history from way back through the present. The major problem is these noisy people are only a small part of Christianity, but they give everybody else a bad name in the minds of serious thinkers.
In our church (Episcopalian) you don’t have to check your brain at the door. The Bible is one of the evolved records of the long evolution of the human search for understanding of how things work. It’s old and full of junk and must be read in context. Jesus preached cooperation (revolutionary) and they strung him up in a nasty public way, but with his sacrifice the idea caught on. The stories (partly invented) and the evolving theology fit the context of the time, and supernatural virgin birth and floating up into heaven are beside the point (similar to stories about other famous people back then). People remembering his sacrifice for the idea with a shared ritual meal enhanced the evolution of human cooperation.
God is not some supernatural being hiding in the cracks of reality. Get real. To many of us Christians God is simply a name for all reality. If you go against the natural pattern of reality, there is no forgiveness (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, look it up), and you could go splat, and praying to a supernatural being will not save you.
In our church we do the ritual of a shared meal, representing in our minds the way of voluntary cooperation and how advocating making friends with enemies can be dangerous. However, instead of fighting, making friends and sharing a meal and conversation usually works a lot better.
Pay attention to reality and look around at what is happening on our planet. We are in trouble, and voluntary cooperation is the only hope for the survival of humanity. No supernatural being will save us from our ignorance and arrogance.
In our church (Episcopalian) you don’t have to check your brain at the door. The Bible is one of the evolved records of the long evolution of the human search for understanding of how things work. It’s old and full of junk and must be read in context. Jesus preached cooperation (revolutionary) and they strung him up in a nasty public way, but with his sacrifice the idea caught on. The stories (partly invented) and the evolving theology fit the context of the time, and supernatural virgin birth and floating up into heaven are beside the point (similar to stories about other famous people back then). People remembering his sacrifice for the idea with a shared ritual meal enhanced the evolution of human cooperation.
God is not some supernatural being hiding in the cracks of reality. Get real. To many of us Christians God is simply a name for all reality. If you go against the natural pattern of reality, there is no forgiveness (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, look it up), and you could go splat, and praying to a supernatural being will not save you.
In our church we do the ritual of a shared meal, representing in our minds the way of voluntary cooperation and how advocating making friends with enemies can be dangerous. However, instead of fighting, making friends and sharing a meal and conversation usually works a lot better.
Pay attention to reality and look around at what is happening on our planet. We are in trouble, and voluntary cooperation is the only hope for the survival of humanity. No supernatural being will save us from our ignorance and arrogance.
Hi Sporacle
While I agree with the basic premise of your post, I tend to stop short of citing any part of the writing as "junk". Certainly, I agree with the misuse and mis interpretation of the contents, but I am less inclined to see it 'cut up' and keeping all the good bits. This is certainly not because I believe that the stories are a true account in every sentence, but that their being written is "the correct result".
I see it this way.
1.That the universal order has a basis for being.
2.It has one event which ties every other event together.
3.The event was not happen chance, but a reasoned "cornerstone event"
even though I am saying that , I am not saying which event it actually was. What I see of the bible is that it appears to be a road map to that event for "someone". But this is entirely the wrong word and I cannot think of better. But if you could think of God as only being able to see the universe from a position of "completeness", then were he/she to find themselves in a relative position within history, they would need to understand where they were. (even this is a bad explanation).
If you move outwards from the keystone effect, and said "everything else must conform to ensure this blueprint survives" , then past and future may not be as 'evenly distributed' as the keystone effect. Like a ripple spreads from a drop in a pool of water , both directions are effected by numerous interferences which become chaotic the further you get from the middle. However this does not change what is possible.
So "the universe", and by that I mean the stars and the planets, were here doing what they do for a long time before we got here, and will do so for a long time after we leave. This creates a buffer zone that makes human existence a rather diluted "nothing event" but because one small event within the small event of humankind exists, then all else is in order.
The hypocrisy and changes in direction seem at odds with each other because as we move further and further from the "keystone event", larger checks and balances are needed in both the period prior to Jesus (which is generally what is considered the measure) and after.
even if you go to just after the event, The apostles acted contrary to the teachings which they had been receiving. Within a hundred years the basic philosophies were mixed up in sectarian dictatorships, some of which survive today. This is not because that was wrong. Quite the opposite.! it could never have been different.Jesus himself said,"don't be afraid of war or rumours of war". "be they ever seeing and not perceiving". " he who has ears , let him hear".
So as a book to be read in the way we generally perceive a book of learning, it sucks big time. But as a catalyst.......It is just brilliant.!
Cheers
Iseason
While I agree with the basic premise of your post, I tend to stop short of citing any part of the writing as "junk". Certainly, I agree with the misuse and mis interpretation of the contents, but I am less inclined to see it 'cut up' and keeping all the good bits. This is certainly not because I believe that the stories are a true account in every sentence, but that their being written is "the correct result".
I see it this way.
1.That the universal order has a basis for being.
2.It has one event which ties every other event together.
3.The event was not happen chance, but a reasoned "cornerstone event"
even though I am saying that , I am not saying which event it actually was. What I see of the bible is that it appears to be a road map to that event for "someone". But this is entirely the wrong word and I cannot think of better. But if you could think of God as only being able to see the universe from a position of "completeness", then were he/she to find themselves in a relative position within history, they would need to understand where they were. (even this is a bad explanation).
If you move outwards from the keystone effect, and said "everything else must conform to ensure this blueprint survives" , then past and future may not be as 'evenly distributed' as the keystone effect. Like a ripple spreads from a drop in a pool of water , both directions are effected by numerous interferences which become chaotic the further you get from the middle. However this does not change what is possible.
So "the universe", and by that I mean the stars and the planets, were here doing what they do for a long time before we got here, and will do so for a long time after we leave. This creates a buffer zone that makes human existence a rather diluted "nothing event" but because one small event within the small event of humankind exists, then all else is in order.
The hypocrisy and changes in direction seem at odds with each other because as we move further and further from the "keystone event", larger checks and balances are needed in both the period prior to Jesus (which is generally what is considered the measure) and after.
even if you go to just after the event, The apostles acted contrary to the teachings which they had been receiving. Within a hundred years the basic philosophies were mixed up in sectarian dictatorships, some of which survive today. This is not because that was wrong. Quite the opposite.! it could never have been different.Jesus himself said,"don't be afraid of war or rumours of war". "be they ever seeing and not perceiving". " he who has ears , let him hear".
So as a book to be read in the way we generally perceive a book of learning, it sucks big time. But as a catalyst.......It is just brilliant.!
Cheers
Iseason
So if strange men come to your town you give them your daughters?
What about the Koran? and other Holy Books?
What about the works of Shakespeare? they are a better catalyst.
For you the main difference between the Bible and the Koran is you were exposed to one not the other when you were a child.
If you cling to what you were exposed to as a child then your beliefs are random.
What about the Koran? and other Holy Books?
What about the works of Shakespeare? they are a better catalyst.
For you the main difference between the Bible and the Koran is you were exposed to one not the other when you were a child.
If you cling to what you were exposed to as a child then your beliefs are random.
QUOTE (sporacle+May 12 2009, 06:14 AM)
The ugly creationist model of reality, so called “intelligent design” BS, is based on “biblical inerrancy” a perverted literal interpretation of the King James version of the Bible.
sporacle, just to clear up part of a misconception in your post: ID theory is different than having a biblical worldview:
"The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions....telligentDesign
This definition might be wrong as it sees natural selection as an undirected process?
A biblical worldview agrees with Genesis 1:1
KJV "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (I used the KJV because it's public domain.)
Molecules to man evolution/Darwinism - Sees a physical process for organisms change over time.
sporacle, just to clear up part of a misconception in your post: ID theory is different than having a biblical worldview:
"The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions....telligentDesign
This definition might be wrong as it sees natural selection as an undirected process?
A biblical worldview agrees with Genesis 1:1
KJV "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (I used the KJV because it's public domain.)
Molecules to man evolution/Darwinism - Sees a physical process for organisms change over time.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 12 2009, 11:31 AM)
"The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions....telligentDesign
So, who designed the designer?
So, who designed the designer?
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 12 2009, 04:31 PM)
A biblical worldview agrees with Genesis 1:1
KJV "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (I used the KJV because it's public domain.)
Molecules to man evolution/Darwinism - Sees a physical process for organisms change over time.
One is based on hearsay stories.
The other is based on repeatable observations.
There is certainly plenty of wisdom about human experience in the Holy books written, copied and revised over the millennia. All along they asked the usual big questions, including how reality started, the human role and where everything is going. However, they framed their hypotheses in terms of their own human experience and human thinking. Concepts of God invariably include human attributes.
The complexity of some forms along the evolutionary sequence is mind-boggling, and at first it is hard to imagine how they could evolve without "design". However forms such as the eye are a typical example. The details of the evolutionary sequence of the components of complex eyes is well documented, all the way from ectodermal light sensitive spots to a "camera-like" eye. Notably the same basic evolutionary sequence has taken place in separate lineages.
The complexity of some forms along the evolutionary sequence is mind-boggling, and at first it is hard to imagine how they could evolve without "design". However forms such as the eye are a typical example. The details of the evolutionary sequence of the components of complex eyes is well documented, all the way from ectodermal light sensitive spots to a "camera-like" eye. Notably the same basic evolutionary sequence has taken place in separate lineages.
QUOTE (buttershug+May 13 2009, 12:10 AM)
So if strange men come to your town you give them your daughters?
What about the Koran? and other Holy Books?
What about the works of Shakespeare? they are a better catalyst.
For you the main difference between the Bible and the Koran is you were exposed to one not the other when you were a child.
If you cling to what you were exposed to as a child then your beliefs are random.
Hi Buttershug
No . When they came to this town (depicted) , they gave them their Daughters. We have had this conversation before I feel.
As stated then, I see every event as being significant whether it was captured in any book that you studied or I studied or the billions of books that were burnt ,rotted or sit idle on shelves that we didn't study. I do not accept that we can ever see ourselves as what we are here and now, but as part of everything that is was or ever will be.
So that means everything. Universal.
I see it this way not because I studied the bible, but because I have looked well beyond what it contains . This forum is as typical of any community anywhere in the world. The bible is just as typical of it's time. Sure , what we discuss is varied and more exacting, but essentially, humans do what humans do in the environment they find themselves in.
You may look and see much which gives you pause because it is seen within the context of an apparently hypocritical meanderings of an uneducated people. But at any time in history the balance remains pretty much standard over the earth. If on part was at peace, another was erupting into war. If one had food, another starved. Not just during the study of the same time, but statistically over a century or a millennium.
Cheers
Iseason
What about the Koran? and other Holy Books?
What about the works of Shakespeare? they are a better catalyst.
For you the main difference between the Bible and the Koran is you were exposed to one not the other when you were a child.
If you cling to what you were exposed to as a child then your beliefs are random.
Hi Buttershug
No . When they came to this town (depicted) , they gave them their Daughters. We have had this conversation before I feel.
As stated then, I see every event as being significant whether it was captured in any book that you studied or I studied or the billions of books that were burnt ,rotted or sit idle on shelves that we didn't study. I do not accept that we can ever see ourselves as what we are here and now, but as part of everything that is was or ever will be.
So that means everything. Universal.
I see it this way not because I studied the bible, but because I have looked well beyond what it contains . This forum is as typical of any community anywhere in the world. The bible is just as typical of it's time. Sure , what we discuss is varied and more exacting, but essentially, humans do what humans do in the environment they find themselves in.
You may look and see much which gives you pause because it is seen within the context of an apparently hypocritical meanderings of an uneducated people. But at any time in history the balance remains pretty much standard over the earth. If on part was at peace, another was erupting into war. If one had food, another starved. Not just during the study of the same time, but statistically over a century or a millennium.
Cheers
Iseason
So the Koran is as valid as the Bible?
QUOTE (buttershug+May 14 2009, 02:57 AM)
So the Koran is as valid as the Bible?
Hi Buttershug
You cannot pick and choose reality. Either all of reality is valid , or none of it.
If you attempted to create "the universe" which did not contain The Koran, then You will be creating a totally different result. Many of the ACTUAL PHYSICAL AND SOCIAL changes would not be present if it's existence and followers were altered "even one dot".
We are probably seeing this from very different angles. I am not favoring the Bible because it is more correct than anything else. On the one hand, I am more familiar with what it contains. But I don't have to accept it as an actual account, in literal word to understand what it represents.
Having accepted that, I don't give more or less credence to works which were written in a similar way, as the Koran was. It is no more able to be read as a literal account than the Bible. Even the errors in the ways these texts have been interpreted is valid because they have a resulting effect. Hindsight is the easiest finger to point at history. I wonder how An ancient landowner who had compassion for his slaves would feel about the way we talk about his life.
He would quite naturally look around him and have absolutely no concept of the wrong that you have accused him of. We have only recently (as a western race) developed this sense of outrage ourselves. It is not even a world wide conviction yet. Still , many other morals which are recently developed are held up as proof that somehow the bible, and not the general population are to blame for anything that is unacceptable today.
Cheers
Iseason
Hi Buttershug
You cannot pick and choose reality. Either all of reality is valid , or none of it.
If you attempted to create "the universe" which did not contain The Koran, then You will be creating a totally different result. Many of the ACTUAL PHYSICAL AND SOCIAL changes would not be present if it's existence and followers were altered "even one dot".
We are probably seeing this from very different angles. I am not favoring the Bible because it is more correct than anything else. On the one hand, I am more familiar with what it contains. But I don't have to accept it as an actual account, in literal word to understand what it represents.
Having accepted that, I don't give more or less credence to works which were written in a similar way, as the Koran was. It is no more able to be read as a literal account than the Bible. Even the errors in the ways these texts have been interpreted is valid because they have a resulting effect. Hindsight is the easiest finger to point at history. I wonder how An ancient landowner who had compassion for his slaves would feel about the way we talk about his life.
He would quite naturally look around him and have absolutely no concept of the wrong that you have accused him of. We have only recently (as a western race) developed this sense of outrage ourselves. It is not even a world wide conviction yet. Still , many other morals which are recently developed are held up as proof that somehow the bible, and not the general population are to blame for anything that is unacceptable today.
Cheers
Iseason
QUOTE (iseason+May 14 2009, 09:32 AM)
Hi Buttershug
We are probably seeing this from very different angles. I am not favoring the Bible because it is more correct than anything else. On the one hand, I am more familiar with what it contains.
Cheers
Iseason
Do you recognize the randomness of that?
We are probably seeing this from very different angles. I am not favoring the Bible because it is more correct than anything else. On the one hand, I am more familiar with what it contains.
Cheers
Iseason
Do you recognize the randomness of that?
QUOTE (buttershug+May 13 2009, 07:57 AM)
So the Koran is as valid as the Bible?
No, the Koran is a INvalid as the bible.
No, the Koran is a INvalid as the bible.
QUOTE (Bloy+May 15 2009, 10:02 AM)
No, the Koran is a INvalid as the bible.
Random negatives are not a conversation, nor do they add to any discussion.You guys are so big at saying how investigative science has become and how different that makes it from religion. Only....You cannot retrace your own steps and revisit any thought processes.
Random negatives are not a conversation, nor do they add to any discussion.You guys are so big at saying how investigative science has become and how different that makes it from religion. Only....You cannot retrace your own steps and revisit any thought processes.
You didn't acknowledge the randomness involved in your knowing the Bible better than the Koran.
Nature laid alone. With no worth to do, she was asleep. But even while asleep, the cycle of customary changes and actions with in her continued and these changes in their course produced a point a lightened dot. This point slowly began to grow. The bright glory grew to a great luminous halo. Then, an infinitely powerful primal creator a supreme being was born out of this halo, and it began to create universe. these arose a conclusion in nature- she awakened and was astonished and awed to see this being who was stronger that even nature herself. She was shaken with fear at his strength.
Nature now look up the incarnation of Mahamaya (the great illusionary) and lured the supreme being to her. he in turn left upon her the duty of maintaining his entire creation. So, through the supreme being is stronger than Nature, it can not act contrary to nature. Punichments come down upon those who try to transgress her low. Mahamaya and the Power of the supreme being, known as mahamrityunjaya (the great conqueror of death), is omnipresent in nature. this power is the driving force behind all created thing. This divine force with in the living being gradully unfolds itself under the careful hands of nature. When this force has reached a developed stage, the being endeavours to know itself-archives immortality and becomes one with the super force, the mahamrityunjaya. From its birth, all living beings are bound by the mahamaya (the controlling force of the Universe) and they grow and increase in strength under her care. Traversing through the joys and agonies of countless births and lives, the living being feels weary and desperate. The secret divine strength in its then being to manifest itself, and makes the living being envisage a new path where all glory and happiness lie. The strength within the living being than leaves wordly attachment and unities with the great life force and is made immortal for this material world. Creation is just the expression of that immense force and consciousness, religion is the science of the realization of it. It begins with sanyas (asceticism) and vairagya (renunciation) ends in salvation of the spirit, which is the final repose of all living being.
Nature now look up the incarnation of Mahamaya (the great illusionary) and lured the supreme being to her. he in turn left upon her the duty of maintaining his entire creation. So, through the supreme being is stronger than Nature, it can not act contrary to nature. Punichments come down upon those who try to transgress her low. Mahamaya and the Power of the supreme being, known as mahamrityunjaya (the great conqueror of death), is omnipresent in nature. this power is the driving force behind all created thing. This divine force with in the living being gradully unfolds itself under the careful hands of nature. When this force has reached a developed stage, the being endeavours to know itself-archives immortality and becomes one with the super force, the mahamrityunjaya. From its birth, all living beings are bound by the mahamaya (the controlling force of the Universe) and they grow and increase in strength under her care. Traversing through the joys and agonies of countless births and lives, the living being feels weary and desperate. The secret divine strength in its then being to manifest itself, and makes the living being envisage a new path where all glory and happiness lie. The strength within the living being than leaves wordly attachment and unities with the great life force and is made immortal for this material world. Creation is just the expression of that immense force and consciousness, religion is the science of the realization of it. It begins with sanyas (asceticism) and vairagya (renunciation) ends in salvation of the spirit, which is the final repose of all living being.
God created the world and all living things. As a human has three forms: Soul, Body and Spirit, God also having three forms as well: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus the Son of God) and God the Hoy Spirit, who carries out God's will on earth. 2000 years ago, God the Father sent Jesus His Son to tell people about God's love, and so that Jesus died to forgive humanity's sins.
After Jesus died on the cross, God rose Jesus from the death after three days in the grave and before Jesus return to heaven, He promise that he will return at the end of time.
That is all we need to know.
We shall await.
After Jesus died on the cross, God rose Jesus from the death after three days in the grave and before Jesus return to heaven, He promise that he will return at the end of time.
That is all we need to know.
We shall await.
Mark Dawson
Speak for yourself. Knowing how to cure diseases would be nice, that takes intimate knowledge of exactly how DNA evolution works and even how to change it for particular traits. If you eat corn, you have eaten an artificially induced evolutionary trait to resist disease. You are not starving BECAUSE evolution is fact. Flu vaccine is engineered lifeforms, engineered using the built in tool kit of DNA. That tool kit contains all of the more successful mutation that creature and all of it's forebearers have tried. Humans still have genes that could be activated to give us gills because once, long ago, our great great.........grandfather was a fish. About 40% of our DNA is not chemically different(IE the codes are the same or modifications of the same)than fish have to this day. So, at least two sister fish went down entirely different paths, one to become something that would eventually leave the ocean, one that stayed a fish. It is these "Bloodlines" that do the evolution, not the individual.
Grumpy
QUOTE
That is all we need to know.
Speak for yourself. Knowing how to cure diseases would be nice, that takes intimate knowledge of exactly how DNA evolution works and even how to change it for particular traits. If you eat corn, you have eaten an artificially induced evolutionary trait to resist disease. You are not starving BECAUSE evolution is fact. Flu vaccine is engineered lifeforms, engineered using the built in tool kit of DNA. That tool kit contains all of the more successful mutation that creature and all of it's forebearers have tried. Humans still have genes that could be activated to give us gills because once, long ago, our great great.........grandfather was a fish. About 40% of our DNA is not chemically different(IE the codes are the same or modifications of the same)than fish have to this day. So, at least two sister fish went down entirely different paths, one to become something that would eventually leave the ocean, one that stayed a fish. It is these "Bloodlines" that do the evolution, not the individual.
Grumpy
For $350 I can purchase a cure for someone's leprosy. I think Jesus was credited with only 11 lepers? I think that people could set a goal for themselves: cure more lepers than Jesus.
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