daumic
29th November 2007 - 11:12 PM
QUOTE (rpenner+Nov 28 2007, 11:49 PM)
I haven't finished analyzing it, but this appears to be a simple heat engine. It will cease to function if the Earth and the Sun were in equilibrium. This means that this is no more "direct" conversion than a windmill or a water wheel.
I said this conversion is direct because there's no heater or rotating part as a classical thermal machine.
Enthalpy
8th March 2008 - 03:39 PM
Hi all!
Funny idea, quite refreshing from what we read usually on this forum.
About the feasibility:
- I completely disagree that collisions of gas particles with the walls are perfectly elastic. Quite the opposite. Gas molecules are adsorbed by the walls each time they hit, stay there for a long time, and are reemitted by the wall with a mean speed that depends on the temperature of the wall and not of the gas. So they are perfectly inelastic.
- If I read properly, you hope to get some gas movement from identical gas temperatures on both sides of the sheet? I have big doubts about this.
- Steel sheets of 50µm or much less are easy to find and process. Most drilling processes (laser, waterjet, liquid or plasma etching, electron beam...) make tapered bores - this is usually unwanted. You could lower the gas pressure to increase the diameters, as a hermetic glass cover is cheap, and then you could chose the gas.
May I suggest that you write less monolithic texts? With titles, bold words... You would get more chances to be read.
About the usefulness, just in case this has some importance:
- After thousands of years of engineering, rotating parts are appreciated, as we have off-the-shelf solutions for nearly every aspect. In fact, engineers are relieved when they can have a rotation instead of anything else - think of electric motors, steam turbines, gas turbines...
- Solar energy needs to be stored, transported, and produced cheaply. How many W you get from a m2 seems to be a key factor, just as how many $ a m2 costs. Then, concentrating light with cheap mirrors looks like a solution; The conversion through some combination of engine and generator is the easy part of it and has a rather good efficiency in W/W as well as W/$.
- I would prefer light to be converted by a biological or chemical process to a chemical form of energy. This does improve storage, transport, and hopefully costs. People think of growing kind of algae in flat closed glass containers (no water losses) in deserts.
But maybe you're interested rather in the trick, not in actual applications - perfectly respectable.
Enthalpy
8th March 2008 - 05:11 PM
OK, I've taken time to read this idea entirely. Enjoyed.
Manufacturing isn't a concern. Silicon can easily be avoided. One known cheap method is to damage many places of a thin plastic film by alpha rays from a radioactive material; Damaged places are then preferentially etched away by some chemical.
Nanoparticles bombardment looks fun, no idea if it works - this is an interesting feature for itself, independently of your converter. Manufacturing filters for instance would benefit from cheap methods; There, plastic films of 5µm to many 100µm are more common.
"Speeds gradually made parallel to the axis" and "decrease of disorder": They call it a nozzle, especially when the mean free path is smaller than the diameters. Elastic shocks don't occur with molecules and walls, but they nearly occur with ions and electrons in a magnetic bottle, which you may shape conical. Used as a nozzle in certain ion thrusters. So the intellectual idea of elastic shocks in a conus still stands.
Movement for free: I do believe your proposal contradicts the second law.
- You pretend all particles entering the wide end are sent back. This is false. Some get out at the small end. Basically, trajectories are just as acceptable if you invert time, when there are no losses. "All get out parallel at the wide end" only means "only the ones entering the wide end parallel to the axis will go through".
- You didn't tell about the pressure exerted by particles on the flat surface of the sheet, only at the openings...
My guess is that if you make a complete statistical computation (unfortunately, it is complicated: Take all positions, all directions, possibly all speeds) you will find the equilibrium I expect: The particle population at the narrow side need a precise position but accepts un imprecise direction to enter the conus, and is in equilibrium with a population at the wide side, composed of these particles with a precise direction but less precise position.
Enthalpy
8th March 2008 - 05:17 PM
Particles exiting and the narrow end are less scarce than I thought. If the wide end has twice the surface, then half of the particles entering the wide end exit the narrow end. This is as many particles as in the opposite direction.
The ones reflected are as many as the ones reflected byt the flat part of the sheet covering the conus.
Complete equilibrium then. No mean movement, no energy.
Over and out for my contribution.
daumic
12th March 2008 - 11:11 PM
Hello, Enthalpy
About the elastic shocks
I think that the gas molecules could have the two comportments, elastic and inelastic, according to the link energy between a gas molecule and the solid wall.
If the gas molecule has a kinetic energy smaller than the link energy with the solid wall, it remains glued on the solid wall after the shock. The gas molecule could quit the solid wall later when the thermal agitation permits that. In this case, the comportment of the gas molecule is inelastic.
If the gas molecule has a kinetic energy greater than the link energy with the solid wall, it doesn't be glued and the shock is elastic.
The link energy is small in regard of the kinetic energy of the gas molecules of atmosphere at its mean temperature. So the great part of gas molecules of atmosphere has elastic shocks with solid walls.
About the second law of thermodynamic
I think the device is not contradictory with the second law of thermodynamic.
The conical holes in the sheet metal break the symmetry between the face where are located the small openings of the holes and the face where are located the large openings of the holes. This dissymmetry breaks also the thermodynamic equilibrium.
This device made of a sheet metal drilled by conical nano-holes is a dissipative system. A dissipative system is a thermodynamically open system which is operating far from thermodynamic equilibrium in an environment with which it exchanges energy, matter and/or entropy.
The selective movement of gas molecules through the conical holes from the small openings to the large openings is the manifestation of an exchange of energy and entropy between the device and the gas in contact.
RealityCheck
13th March 2008 - 06:43 AM
.
Hi daumic!
Your setup seems to mimic 'convection' effect....only in a biased direction according to the geometry you describe.
If you set it up so the larger opening is on TOP side of a horinzontal sheet, then perhaps the 'bias' you envisage will enhance convection....such that the tendency for the lower side molecules going UPWARDS into the smaller opening is ALREADY (because of ambient pressure) greater than the tendency for the molecules on the upper side to go DOWN into the upper (larger) opening.
However, when heat is trasferred to molecules from the inner walls of the conical 'hole', the REBOUNDS/VIBRATIONS are randomised and not 'stratified/directed' unless the MEAN FREE PATH of INDIVIDUAL MOLECULES is very large and almost the length of the hole 'depth'.....and to get this large mean free path would mean a VERY RARIFIED 'working gas'...which in turn would mean very LOW MECHANICAL PRESSURE/energy density transported.
If the mean free path is NOT long and clear, the many collisions between the molecules will create a localised BACKPRESSURE so that molecules from the lower opening are PREVENTED from 'easy entry' in the first place.
What would happen then is RADIATION LOSSES of energy AS HEAT from the openings.....and the localised holes merely become HOT STAGNANT AIR 'spots' replacing the 'removed material' which would otherwise have been there to ABSORB and then ALSO RE-RADIATE as HEAT energy.
However, one never knows what 'unusual' scale/geometry/bias effects may 'emerge' from various setup/scale tests of your idea! So why not make a simple (small) cone 'pit' in a sheet of metal with a suitably sharpened (made extremely conical) drill bit and see what happens to 'smokey' air blown around the hole from both sides while in bright/hot sunlight (withn the sheet vertical, then horizontal and then in-betwwen etc.)?
Sorry I don't have more time! Cheers, good luck and good thinking, daumic, everyone!
RC.
.
PIATLAS
13th March 2008 - 06:52 AM
That reminds me, I have some food in the convection oven, and the timer was beeping ages ago.
RealityCheck
13th March 2008 - 06:54 AM
.
Hehehe. Bon appetite!....and it's good night from me, everyone!
.
Enthalpy
17th March 2008 - 02:00 AM
Elastic shocks never happen at a surface, because Von der Waal's energies are much bigger than kinetic ones.
In fact, any surface is covered with several layers of adsorbed gas. The energy binding the gas molecules decreases as more layers are absorbed (above the boiling point of course), leading to a self-regulation.
Now, the energy linking the outmost gas molecules to the wall is several times bigger than the thermal energy, as overcoming this binding energy by chance from time to time is enough to desorb the gas molecule. So gas molecules arriving at this outmost layer are adsorbed and stay a long time there. Perfectly inelastic.
daumic
24th March 2008 - 11:08 PM
QUOTE (Enthalpy+Mar 17 2008, 02:00 AM)
Elastic shocks never happen at a surface, because Von der Waal's energies are much bigger than kinetic ones.
In fact, any surface is covered with several layers of adsorbed gas. The energy binding the gas molecules decreases as more layers are absorbed (above the boiling point of course), leading to a self-regulation.
Now, the energy linking the outmost gas molecules to the wall is several times bigger than the thermal energy, as overcoming this binding energy by chance from time to time is enough to desorb the gas molecule. So gas molecules arriving at this outmost layer are adsorbed and stay a long time there. Perfectly inelastic.
Hello Enthalpy,
You are right about the comparison between kinetic energy of gas molecules at standard temperature and link energy with solid surface. The link energy is greater than kinetic energy.
The remarkable book of Atkins and de Paula ‘Physical chemistry’ gives the following results:
Maximum enthalpy of adsorption indicated in kJ/mole:
CH4 - 21
H2 - 84
H2O - 59
N2 - 21
By comparison, the mean kinetic energy of a mole of N2 is on order of 3.4 kJ at 273 K.
However, I maintain that the major part of shocks of gas molecules at standard temperature is elastic.
According to these values of enthalpy of adsorption, any solid surface in contact with atmosphere is quickly covered by a monolayer of water molecules.
What could be the enthalpy of adsorption of a second layer of gas molecules? The Van Der Walls forces that generate the adsorption act in a very short distance. So the enthalpy of adsorption of a second layer could be probably smaller.
The solid surface could be covered by multiple layers of gas molecules until the enthalpy of adsorption of the last layer is sufficiently diminished to be in the same level of the mean kinetic energy of the gas in contact.
If the kinetic energy of a gas molecule kicking a solid surface is smaller than the enthalpy of adsorption of the last layer of adsorbed molecules, the gas molecule remains glued: the shock is inelastic. If the kinetic energy of gas molecule is greater than the enthalpy of adsorption of the last layer, the shock of gas molecule is elastic. The molecules in the inner layers are too strongly linked to be moved by the shocks of gas molecules.
I concede to you that the comportment of gas molecules could be massively inelastic in some circumstances: the desorption of water molecules when the void is created in a closed volume or a gas near its condensation temperature.
An example of reality of elastic shocks
The microfluidic is the technology of very small devices where liquids and gas are manipulated. The micropumping by thermal accommodation, an element of this new technology, uses tiny pipes to manipulate gas. The diameter of these pipes must be on the same order of the mean free path of gas. The comportment of gas is different according the state of inner surface of these pipes. If the surface is rough, a difference of temperature between the ends of pipe doesn't generate a flow of gas molecules in the pipe. If the surface is smooth, a difference of temperature between the ends of pipe generates a flow of gas molecules in the pipe. This comportment of gas molecules is only intelligible if the shocks of gas molecules on the surface of pipe are elastic.
Enthalpy
28th March 2008 - 02:05 AM
Read a bit.
And be somewhat honest.
Nature won't change because you need it.
daumic
6th April 2008 - 09:38 PM
QUOTE (Enthalpy+Mar 28 2008, 02:05 AM)
Read a bit.
And be somewhat honest.
Nature won't change because you need it.
Hello Enthalpy,
I make the conjecture that the movement of gas molecules in small conical tunnels could convert the heat in a useful force.
This conjecture is based on the assumption that the shocks of gas molecules on solid wall are elastic.
The comportment of gas molecules in these small conical tunnels is the same that in the cylindrical tubes used by thermal accommodation micropump.
The scientists describing the comportment of the gas in these tiny tubes used in thermal accommodation micropump assert that the trajectories of molecules hitting the tube surface are specular.
If the trajectories of molecules are specular, the shocks are elastic.
Scientific articles about thermal accommodation micropumping are available on internet.
I give here a list of some articles:
- étude expérimentale d'écoulements gazeux dans les microsystèmes à fluides by P. Lalonde,
- Monte-Carlo analysis of lobular gas-surface scattering in tubes by J.D. Smith and C. A. Raquet,
- la physique des microécoulements by S. Colin,
- effets de raréfaction dans les micro-écoulements gazeux by S. Colin and L. Baldas.
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