To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: Contemporary Sciences
PhysOrgForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and New Theories > Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, New Theories

Bishadi
30th January 2008 - 07:52 PM
QUOTE
Contemporary scientists are uncapable to undestand what previous generations have created
Pretty wise set of words.

It is one reason, simple items currently in use such as entanglement, have not been including in many cosmological models.

Where the entanglement of mass, is definitively a property of energy but Virial was used without this property and hence the data shares a new form or causation of momentum which is currently called dark energy.

So before new creations are recognized as laws, doesn't common sense show that a recap of the old works, within our contemporary capabilities should be observed?
kjw
30th January 2008 - 08:24 PM
QUOTE
Bishadi Posted: Today at 5:52 AM
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Bishadi Posted: Today at 5:52 AM Contemporary scientists are uncapable to undestand what previous generations have created Pretty wise set of words.

no. general relativity explains newtons inverse square law. newton himself could not provide a reason why gravity obeys the inverse square law, other than "it just does". quantum theory can explain the structure of white dwarfs.

it would seem that progressive knowledge wins.
Bishadi
30th January 2008 - 10:20 PM
QUOTE
quantum theory can explain the structure of white dwarfs.


Never held a white dwarf, where can a person on earth trying to understand why 'on earth' buy one of these shorties and is there a 'politically correct' section?


http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/..._l2/dwarfs.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
quantum theory can explain the structure of white dwarfs.


Never held a white dwarf, where can a person on earth trying to understand why 'on earth' buy one of these shorties and is there a 'politically correct' section?


http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/..._l2/dwarfs.html

Because a white dwarf is not able to create internal pressure (e.g. from the release of energy from fusion), gravity crushes it down until even the very electrons making up a white dwarf's atoms are smashed together. In normal circumstances, identical electrons (those with the same "spin") are not allowed to occupy the same energy level. Since there are only two ways an electron can spin, only two electrons can occupy a single energy level. This is what's known in physics as the Pauli Exclusion Principle.


but yet experimental evidence shows us that the Pauli E has been less than true

maybe you should come up to speed, Bose Einstien and planck are all dead now so they have an excuse...

what is yours

QUOTE
The result of the efforts of Bose and Einstein is the concept of a Bose gas, governed by the Bose-Einstein statistics, which describes the statistical distribution of identical particles with integer spin, now known as bosons (Such as the photon and helium-4). In Bose-Einstein statistics, the Pauli exclusion principle is not obeyed so that any number of identical bosons can be in the same state


http://cua.mit.edu/ketterle_group/Projects.../Projects07.htm

try again after your homework, please


kjw
31st January 2008 - 12:55 AM
QUOTE
Bishadi Posted: Today at 8:20 AM In Bose-Einstein statistics, the Pauli exclusion principle is not obeyed so that any number of identical bosons can be in the same state

the pauli exclusion principle describes behavior of fermions. the application of this is that the electron degeneracy pressure in white dwarfs prevents the white dwarf from collapsing further. my point of quantum theory can explain the structure of white dwarfs still holds.

is there another pauli exclusion principle that deals in bosons that would help me understand your comment ?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Bishadi Posted: Today at 8:20 AM In Bose-Einstein statistics, the Pauli exclusion principle is not obeyed so that any number of identical bosons can be in the same state

the pauli exclusion principle describes behavior of fermions. the application of this is that the electron degeneracy pressure in white dwarfs prevents the white dwarf from collapsing further. my point of quantum theory can explain the structure of white dwarfs still holds.

is there another pauli exclusion principle that deals in bosons that would help me understand your comment ?

try again after your homework, please
Bishadi
31st January 2008 - 11:50 AM
QUOTE

The Pauli exclusion principle dictates that no two identical fermions may occupy the same quantum state.
Most of chemistry here on Earth and elsewhere is dictated by the simple Pauli rule: electrons fill atomic orbitals in such a way that no two electrons have exactly the same quantum values. Partially filled orbitals determine what kind of chemical affinity that atom will have. Note that fermion atoms are not precluded from interacting in ordinary chemical reactions (the atoms have differing nuclear and electronic internal configurations). But they may not enter into an extensive BEC kind of quantum condensate where the atoms do possess the same quantum attributes.

2. Degeneracy. Pauli is on duty at all times, but he chiefly manifests himself in a quantum setting, such as in the orbitals within an atom or in the chilled molasses of a microkelvin-level atom trap. In this rarefied realm, bosons can all fall into that singular BEC state. All having the same energy, these atoms are said to be degenerate. 

Basically the descriptions of your white dwarf would not apply since ‘now’ it is found that on earth, the law is not really a law… just sort of a guide…
So rather than take observation from a magnifying glass, it seems prudent to observer experimental evidence as the first step.

Sorry to see the little guy fade to history.

But Virial Theorem will never give us quality data in the current form
kjw
31st January 2008 - 08:49 PM
QUOTE
Bishadi Posted: Yesterday at 9:50 PM Basically the descriptions of your white dwarf would not apply since ‘now’ it is found that on earth, the law is not really a law… just sort of a guide…
i never said it was a law,
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Bishadi Posted: Yesterday at 9:50 PM Basically the descriptions of your white dwarf would not apply since ‘now’ it is found that on earth, the law is not really a law… just sort of a guide…
i never said it was a law,
kjw Posted on Yesterday at 10:55 AM the pauli exclusion principle...

though, it still explains the structure of a white dwarf.

QUOTE
So rather than take observation from a magnifying glass, it seems prudent to observer experimental evidence as the first step.

are you saying that observations made from a proverbial magnifying glass are not a prudent means of obtaining experimental evidence relating to electrons ?

do you think that just by looking at a white dwarf, or any macro object, you can understand its structure ?
barakn
31st January 2008 - 11:14 PM
QUOTE (Bishadi+Jan 31 2008, 11:50 AM)
Basically the descriptions of your white dwarf would not apply since ‘now’ it is found that on earth, the law is not really a law… just sort of a guide…
So rather than take observation from a magnifying glass, it seems prudent to observer experimental evidence as the first step.

Sorry to see the little guy fade to history.

But Virial Theorem will never give us quality data in the current form

Bishadi,

Your confusion on the matter is understandable. The material a white dwarf is made of is mostly C12 and O16, which are both made of even numbers of fermions and are therefore bosons, at least when well-separated. However, they are composite bosons. I don't suppose you've noticed but whenever someone wants to make a Bose-Einstein Condensate, they're making it in a vacuum and extremely cold temperatures. That's because a funny thing happens to composite bosons when they are squeezed together - they start noticing the individual fermions in their neighbors. In the even more extreme conditions of a white dwarf these atoms actually lose electrons, and these solitary electrons act as fermions.

Also you seem to be asserting that there is no observational evidence of the fermionic model of a white dwarf. Let's assume the model is incorrect, meaning that everything in the white dwarf sees everything else as a boson no matter what. Since all these bosons can occupy the same state, the gravity of the white dwarf quickly collapses everything together and a black hole is born. Astronomical observation of white dwarfs proves that our assumption is incorrect, and there really must be fermions preventing the white dwarf from collapsing.

Keep trying and someday you may contribute something useful to the conversation.
Bishadi
1st February 2008 - 12:33 PM
QUOTE
are you saying that observations made from a proverbial magnifying glass are not a prudent means of obtaining experimental evidence relating to electrons ? 


Yes......

Now that is the kind of thinking that is required to move this globe forward!

You are correct, what the heck are we doing looking up to describe 'electrons'....

Einstein himself asked, " i would like to know what an electron is'

that as much that has been done most do not realize that no electron is floating around without having been isolated by a cause....

The big E knew this but still over looked in the sciences.....

note the thread itself is about this exact type of issue
Bishadi
1st February 2008 - 01:13 PM
QUOTE
Since all these bosons can occupy the same state, the gravity of the white dwarf quickly collapses everything together and a black hole is born.


What black hole? You mean that created idea caused by turning em to potential and kinetic form by Virial?

Maybe you might want to read a little on 'how it works' before trying to discredit a point with another error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virial_theorem

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Since all these bosons can occupy the same state, the gravity of the white dwarf quickly collapses everything together and a black hole is born.


What black hole? You mean that created idea caused by turning em to potential and kinetic form by Virial?

Maybe you might want to read a little on 'how it works' before trying to discredit a point with another error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virial_theorem

Astronomical observation of white dwarfs proves that our assumption is incorrect,
Now start with this fact but why return to illogical form such as

QUOTE
and there really must be fermions preventing the white dwarf from collapsing.
Because gravity is thought to be crushing mass, when entangled energy does not collapse.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
and there really must be fermions preventing the white dwarf from collapsing.
Because gravity is thought to be crushing mass, when entangled energy does not collapse.

Keep trying and someday you may contribute something useful to the conversation.


It was my thread ..... maybe you should re-evaluated versus complacency....

What was being shared is that errors in valuation to mass and energy has caused a pretty sad understanding to the cosmology of the universe caused by the exact type of thinking you are on....

complacency to misrepresented logic ... i.e... gravity is a property of mass
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.