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Gorgeous


Don't know if physorg has caught this yet, so....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7288426.stm




g.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Mar 11 2008, 09:28 PM)
Don't know if physorg has caught this yet, so....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7288426.stm




g.

I just hope we are mature enough to be in control of such amazing technologies.

Although I remain optimistic especially for future medical use and further exploration of such scales.

I need to know more! smile.gif
Gorgeous
QUOTE
I just hope we are mature enough to be in control of such amazing technologies.


Therein lies the problem, as 'hoping' is not 'doing'! There is an equal amount of work to be done in understanding the implications and complications involved.

I am not necessarily opposed to this motion, but it would be nice to see some balance!



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yor_on
Impressive

Still far fetched though.
But if we exist in say fifty years having a technological civilization like now.
we'll see.




OldWoman1904
wow blink.gif

best link so far
Gorgeous
QUOTE (OldWoman1904+Mar 16 2008, 01:11 AM)
wow blink.gif

best link so far

Makes us fragile things look more like the 'missing link' everyday, doesn't it?

How quickly we are able to convert to 'aliens', once the 'method' is discovered!




g.
soundhertz
QUOTE
The two nanometre diameter structure was inspired by the parallel communication of glial cells inside a human brain, according to the team.


This is representative of one of the basic hurdles in creating computing machines that themselves can invent technology beyond human ability. The human brain is remarkable in it's synergistic thought processes because of massive parallelism, something that artificial computing hasn't achieved yet. These first baby steps are the harbingers of something truly beyond our imagination: artificial imagination, if I may put it romantically. In theory, successfully marrying massive parallelism to the computing speed and 0% loss of data retention/retrieval will open the door to possibilities known best by today's scientific poets - the authors of science fiction itself. Articles like this must be extremely exciting for them; more than they can be for most of us. The days ahead of us shine bright. We will get through, and see them. The frontier will never cease to be, and we will never stop following it.
Gorgeous
QUOTE
These first baby steps are the harbingers of something truly beyond our imagination: artificial imagination, if I may put it romantically.


I think it is also possible to see this not as necessarily 'artificial', but really as an extension of the previous thing! Technology is evolving, and it can only do so because it is Real, it Exists, it is actual and happening.

There is such an aspect as 'rapid evolution'. This is because Evolution is not something that 'travels at a constant speed'. Thus, certain aspects of it can move extremely 'slowly' and others extremely 'quickly'. A still, calm day and a tornado are both aspects of the phenomenon we call 'weather'.

So, as the environment changes, so do all of the 'parts' that go to make it a 'whole thing'.

Thus it is with 'artificial intelligence'. It quite simply emerges from the 'ashes' that are us. In order to stop being afraid of such things, we must stop being afraid of ourselves, firstly, as the 'programmers' of the foundation for future thinking. While we are still warring, self-polluting maniacs, this will be the foundation for that which we pass on to our next levels of 'Self', whatever 'shapes' they may form themselves into.





g.
Zarabtul
This is very interesting. I had thought the story about the link to the brain through the brain stem was interesting out of Australia back in the late 90's. I will love to see where this technology is taking us and what we might learn. The math behind it is somewhat difficult, but with better technology along the way we will be able to process that at quicker speeds. I still haven't found my computer with a terahertz processor and terabits of ram in it yet though I am hopeful that the computer catches up to the brain. The did get a system to run 1.3 terahertz though that's still not quite up to the capacity of the brain. That is why i have such an interest in the gluon field and it's interactions and the vectoring out of that stuff is just simple geometry that takes a lot of processor time.
Gorgeous
In addition...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7313203.stm




g.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (soundhertz+)

This is representative of one of the basic hurdles in creating computing machines that themselves can invent technology beyond human ability. The human brain is remarkable in it's synergistic thought processes because of massive parallelism, something that artificial computing hasn't achieved yet. These first baby steps are the harbingers of something truly beyond our imagination: artificial imagination, if I may put it romantically. In theory, successfully marrying massive parallelism to the computing speed and 0% loss of data retention/retrieval will open the door to possibilities known best by today's scientific poets - the authors of science fiction itself. Articles like this must be extremely exciting for them; more than they can be for most of us. The days ahead of us shine bright. We will get through, and see them. The frontier will never cease to be, and we will never stop following it.





This is the half/hoaxed, 'AI Eidolon 'The Last Prophet''.
Not entirely real but offers some interesting logical Sci-Fi insights to a possible future scenario.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27dVKWafHBw

DavidD
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 28 2008, 11:55 AM)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27dVKWafHBw

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
AI is slowdowning exponentinaly, biology is trilions and bilions times more dificult than singularity of moushit
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 28 2008, 01:51 PM)
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
AI is slowdowning exponentinaly, biology is trilions and bilions times more dificult than singularity of moushit

Slowdowning?, Moushit?

But yes biology is extremely complicated. AI is in it's infancy, still mostly Sci-fi.

However, as we learn more about our biology, evolution, environment, mind etc the closer we get to unraveling the secrets of intelligence.

Once we begin to see past the myths and fallacies regarding the mind and consciousness
we will have a better idea of how complex it all really is.

What you have to bear in mind is that you are a biologist. Your brain and body are actually performing all the things that biologists that study the Human body are only beginning to understand.

There is so much information, calculations, chemistry etc etc that your brain is constantly managing, that if you were conscious of it and had to think about it, you would probably die of Human error. Even the best biologists in the world ever, could not consciously perform all the tasks that your sub-conscious or un-conscious brain is performing. Ironically we probably know more about these automated functions and how they work and what they're doing than we do about consciousness.

I'm personally trying to figure out which is more complicated, however AI or Robots whatever bypass much of this problem as we already know how to build computers that can perform automated tasks, we just need a better understanding of what consciousness is. How do we create a brain that does not need to worry about what it's doing and just do it. That's what we do. How do we create awareness of external environments. It is complicated but then Reality often is.



DavidD
Sciencists can't precisly simulate C. elegant nematode, which has only 302 neurons. laugh.gif sad.gif And I think this is becouse not the imperfect neurons and synapses simulation (synapses understanding is incomplete), but formation 3D structure of neurons and axons, dentrids, synapses interaction, becouse there is function physical very dificult, which describes how, in what intensity and soever synapses must connect with dentrids, there is much more physics than in some turbulence of whater or air. There is friction then them connected. Computer unable simulate brain, becouse there is too much phisics needed simulated for understand how brain map is builded. Nature working in such process, that you can see whole thing, but can't analyse and understand processes of each part and so I think that if all silicon on earth you will turn into chips, then still will be don't enough power to simulate single brain and it's map construction... Becouse there is a lot of physics, between neurons/axons/sinpses interaction and this physics very hardly used in phormation of brains. And so to phorm brain map need simulate all physics. Which is too hard. Moore laws decain is over and it's exponentionaly slowing down. There is now new law, according to which number of transistors each 18 mounts increase fewer and fewer times: 2 times, 1.5, times, 1.25 times, 1.125 times, 1.0625 times and so on. when years goes to infinity, number of transistors increases goes to 1. So we will never be able to simulate human brain or even rat brain. Another very dificult problem is to create body with receptors and motorical functions and so on. Robots capability never will be such good as animal. So I think AI, nuclear fusion and quantum computing more realated to art than to sciencie. Current neural networks can recognise some objects like ball, maybe faces, very badly language, but they making it machinery, maybe no, but still to conciounes is very long way, which will never be able for computer, becouse it is human creation and not creation from all possible nature variables. And human will never do beter certain things than nature...
Sinister Utopia
But that's just it, we may not need to re-create the brain because we already have them in abundance.

Moore's law is only limited by our current technology. Just think back to when a comparatively simple computer was the size of a room. If they had projected Moore's law to that technology, they may have predicted that your average home computer would have to be the size of a building and dismissed the idea as Sci-fi. Convergent breakthroughs in miniaturization of similar technology allowed for even more computation power to be condensed into a much smaller space. Further advances allow for the interconectivity of those computers and Networks are born.
A future projection of a Network could be condensed further perhaps.

Moore's law has difficulty predicting certain factors. Ideas are often way ahead of the technology we have at our disposal ie; Virtual Reality, which was an interesting idea which looked terrible and didn't quite match up to it's purpose and essentially boiled down to controlling items limited within cyberspace, however science and other related fields are learning how to create better, smaller computer controlled devices that exist in the real World, so don't be surprised if at sometime in the future we see a resurgence of this idea powered by more capable technology, Nanotechnology perhaps?. The potential benefits in medicine are promising. It's this type of convergence in materials, power source, ideas, scale, need etc that are difficult to predict.

Biological computers could sidestep Moore's law altogether by growing similarly to a real brain. But that's a long reach from now.

Never say never in regards to Human endeavor! wink.gif

Kind regards
DavidD
Human endeavor becoming smaller and smaller in biology... Okey maybe moore law will be as this each 18 mounts increase number of transitors: 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5, 1.45, 1.40, 1.37, 1.35, 1.30, 1.25, 1.20, 1.15, 1.10, 1.05, 1.025 times and so on. But moore law waiting soon end and slowdown...
And here wouldn't help any mystery nanotechnolgy, becouse biology is the best annotechnology and nothing more than biology imposible to create... And so I think all nanotechnology is fake.
Biology computers egsist and if you create another biology computer, then I can sure you that it will be worst than current (our brain).
Transistor compe close to atom size and nobody fighting with atom size becouse it's stupid and thus imposible to improve transistors effeincy... Transistors in't less effiecent than neurons (maybe a little bit), becouse they are simple but wotking on 10 milions higher frenquency. So I think that procesors and brains efiency and speed is almost the same, but just procesor don't maked to work, simulate neurons and neurons don't maked to simulate procesor and also key point is map, which creating cells in human brain and not neuron simulation... Between those cells is friction and over physics... And this physics in evolution working acordint to tested physics laws and DNA information...
IF nanotechnology will be succesfull then they still not be much faster than curent processors, becouse limitation of atom size and limitation speed of making chips is also important... Biological chips probably will grew chip per mounts or so? biggrin.gif
Everything is limited and those limitations are here...to eliminate moore law...
Sinister Utopia
Again, Moore's Law is always applicable as a rule of prediction, however there are factors which are difficult to 'factor in' during the calculation. There are many unforeseen possibilities that take Science and invention off on new tangents, opening up new unforeseen possibilities ie; The Micro chip.

You may well be correct regarding the difficulties in synthesizing the speed of Neurons etc, however we may not need to do that because we already have Neurons.

The current and future of technology in this context are already in motion.
We already interface with technology, computers, mobile phones, vehicles etc.
We are the sentient component. The devices themselves become smaller, or more user friendly, less intrusive perhaps, more powerful maybe?.
I predict that this interfacing will continue to fuse and converge.

Who knows with a better understanding and application of DNA information and bio-tech, nano-tech advances etc, growing Neurons might in the future be analogous to our current emerging ability to grow Ears on the back of Mice! or a new Heart, Liver etc, etc. Who would have predicted that?

I'm not saying that these things 'WILL' happen or that Moore's law does not impact, in fact, I believe the current prediction is about 50 or so years left in silicon advancement, however be mindful not to underestimate the exponentially of the increases. Also the impact on other areas of advancement. Other potential materials, new ideas etc, etc.

QUOTE
And so I think all nanotechnology is fake.


I'll say no more....



DavidD
Yes, neurons the have, but I think the big invention, at least in principle would be to made AI in chip by simulating neurons, but how I say I think this is imposible. Such person would can live forever... Maybe for him wouldn't need dificult receptors and motorical functions and maybe would be enough only eyes-cameras, and ears-microphons and voise-speaker, connected with simulated brain, becouse there is people who don't feel pain at all or are palarized from born and can feel only with head and still have motivation to live (too bad there isn't palarized and whcih don't feel pain at same time and bonus would be, which don't feel anything except eyes, ears and can speach and don't have motoric functions). If such people would exist then it's would be ask to question does such person would understand and do him brain would developed and do he would have motivation to live.
Device smaller more powerfull, now everything is in flash, and if flash based on transistors and transistors can't shrink farther, then for all sizes here would be limits like for last century players, radios, etc. Vegicles almost don't become better and only more multimedia is instaled, more computers, but the quality alsmost don't changing, so the same will be for computers soon. RAM like was 1GB and can't be bigger for couple years. So I am sceptical that RAM after 100 years will be bigger than 10 GB in one card. Vehicles progress is small like hybrid cars. Electrical cars would have point only if all energy will be for example from wind. OR if oil will cancel. Interesting why biologist (biotech) think that they are so cool, but can't grove heard etc. Ear on neck, which can't heard? And by the way, all humans genome is unknow which genes what making. Only very small part is know and combinations of understanding this genome can be 4^100000000 or so.
Moore law canceling very fast and PS3 will be enough powerfull even in 2020. In 2030 moore law will be such: processor speed 1.001 times bigger after each 18 mounts. To bad I don't understand biotech, but they don't know hot to cure cancer or how to fight virus, becouse it's imposible from nature perspective and here can't help any science, becosue there is those nature laws.
soundhertz
You are trying to understand the current obstacles with current understanding, and you can't, but the knowledge cone increases continually. The potential knowledge 'mass' further out in that cone cannot be concretely ascertained, but we reach the knowledge just beyond us, which prepares us for the knowledge just beyond that, as we venture ever into that cone, and as we have for thousands of years.
Speculative_Genius
So so far they have 8 points not ten.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (soundhertz+Apr 5 2008, 06:32 PM)
You are trying to understand the current obstacles with current understanding, and you can't, but the knowledge cone increases continually. The potential knowledge 'mass' further out in that cone cannot be concretely ascertained, but we reach the knowledge just beyond us, which prepares us for the knowledge just beyond that, as we venture ever into that cone, and as we have for thousands of years.

I agree. Moores Law is a good prediction tool for the growth of a specific technology base, however History proves that the goal posts move from time to time.

DavidD seems stuck on the idea that AI has to imitate Human intelligence and thus fails.
AI is AI regardless of the extent of that intelligence. If we can rival or surpass Human intelligence then ok, but that does not define AI.

DavidD
Without neural network self-developing imposible to create AI even with 10^30 FLOPs computation power, becouse need simulate all cells in brain from baby age in vagina... And need understand WHAT those cells doing... This is imposible. You maybe can create brain, but which will live in virtual world... Becouse imposible to know hot to connect cameras-eyes mics-ears and so on from our world to virtual simulated human brain.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (DavidD+Apr 29 2008, 01:47 PM)
Without neural network self-developing impossible to create AI even with 10^30 FLOPs computation power, because need simulate all cells in brain from baby age in vagina... And need understand WHAT those cells doing... This is impossible. You maybe can create brain, but which will live in virtual world... Because impossible to know hot to connect cameras-eyes mics-ears and so on from our world to virtual simulated human brain.

How do you know it is impossible?
You are still using today's technology to dismiss tomorrows possibilities.
All you are confirming is that we cannot do these things today or in the immediate future.

Vagina?

We do not need to imitate Human Brain function, we already have Human Brains in abundance. If we wanted to do that then it would easier to have a romantic liaison with a significant other, and more enjoyable too.

AI is AI, you are fixating on Human Intelligence.
DavidD
If you want make conciounes, then need simulate every cell in developing human body in vagina, becouse imposible to predict human brain map developing. So Human brain consist of about 10^25 atoms, and you need simulate gravity and over stuff, to my best prediction to connect virtual brain with our world is impsoible even with 10^100 FLOPs computation power and 10^100 bits HDD. Brain developing accordint to very difficult nature algorithm, and if you want make AI consiuones then you need simualte nature, even if you will do it, you will be unable to find algorithm how to connect virtaul body with our world. So to invent consiuones is imposible.
DavidD
BTW, there is possible that one in the milion or so with similar conditions like eart becoming conciounes, becouse we don't know what is probability of similar mutation like "in human brain" was...
Sapo
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Apr 29 2008, 02:14 PM)

We do not need to imitate Human Brain function, we already have Human Brains in abundance.

DavidD need siumalte one becouse in his case consioness iposmbul.

Amazing, the strain it took me to misspell without retching. sad.gif
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Sapo+May 1 2008, 02:24 PM)
DavidD need siumalte one becouse in his case consioness iposmbul.

Amazing, the strain it took me to misspell without retching. sad.gif

laugh.gif

Ironically 'Impossible' is one of the few words he actually spells correctly (sometimes)
midwestern
This is the breakthrough in nanotech we have been searching for everyone. Instructions from a central unit to be dispersed to autonomous endings will finally prove nanotech to be a viable science in the near future. Keep working on this project those involved! cool.gif
excaza
DavidD, a baby doesn't develop in the vagina. Just throwing that out there.
midwestern
Eeeekkks excaza. laugh.gif tongue.gif Mandatory high school sex classes must be taught around the country.
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