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magpies
Science is done by people... People make mistakes and try to cover them up all the time. So it seems that science would be full of mistakes that are covered up all the time right? Do the mistake of science start to add when put together and lead us into a terribly wrong direction?
gmilam
Could be, except that people also love to uncover examples of other people's incompetence and/or dishonesty.

So, unless there's a big conspiracy, the mistakes and cover ups will eventually be revealed.
buttershug
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 17 2009, 07:32 PM)
Could be, except that people also love to uncover examples of other people's incompetence and/or dishonesty.


And my experience is that engineering types are the most judgemental of others of their profession.

And science is all about finding accurate answers. So the worst type of person a scientist would be someone who decieves.

And if science leads into a wrong direction then the experiments it leads to don't work.
gmilam
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 17 2009, 03:57 PM)
And my experience is that engineering types are the most judgemental of others of their profession.

And science is all about finding accurate answers. So the worst type of person a scientist would be someone who decieves.

And if science leads into a wrong direction then the experiments it leads to don't work.

That's true. It would have to be a massive cover up of world wide (and even generational) proportions.

NOTE: For those with a broken sarcasm detector - I am not seriously suggesting there is any kind of conspiracy. Just the opposite. I am trying to point out how ludicrous it would be to think there is a massive world wide, multi-hundred year conspiracy.
Grasshopper
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 17 2009, 09:11 PM)
That's true. It would have to be a massive cover up of world wide (and even generational) proportions.

NOTE: For those with a broken sarcasm detector - I am not seriously suggesting there is any kind of conspiracy. Just the opposite. I am trying to point out how ludicrous it would be to think there is a massive world wide, multi-hundred year conspiracy.

And yet... scientists reject Intelligent Design theory because it questions dogma...
AlexG
Scientists reject ID because it is religion in disguise (a very poor disguise), has no evidence to support it and contradicts a theory for which there is evidence.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Grasshopper+Jun 17 2009, 11:49 PM)
And yet... scientists reject Intelligent Design theory because it questions dogma...

Scientists reject Intelligent Design because it is complete and utter bullsh1t.

Just read the first paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
buttershug
QUOTE (Grasshopper+Jun 17 2009, 11:49 PM)
And yet... scientists reject Intelligent Design theory because it questions dogma...

ID is dogma.
It starts with the belief in God.
And sticks with it despite evidence.

When there is a conflict between belief and evidence, religion rejects evidence, and science rejects belief.

Edit the real question is can anything other than science be honest?
Science is all "show me or shut up".
Religion is "shut and have faith".

At one time transposons went against what was believed about genetics.
Very few people (if more than one) believed them but she gave the evidence and scientists changed their beliefs to match the evidence.
Meem
ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God." The stigma it enforced on people who believe in something pure science ... can't say anything about at all. Like I can prove God doesn't exist, so if you can,

"show me, or shut up."


QUOTE

Edit the real question is can anything other than science be honest?
Science is all "show me or shut up".
Religion is "shut and have faith".


So, anyone who is not a scientist can't be honest. False. IF you're not a scientist, you're liar?

So, scrap all theoretical work now, it is a waste of time .... or does it work on faith of finding a solution. LHC is the biggest leap of faith ever.

Real religion is an idea, used religion is a convenient excuse to hate.

At one time, most scientists thought the world was flat. At one time, people were stupid, that had nothing to with "science" that wanted to fly, at one time people thought relativity was a joke, at one time computers were the size of a room. Things can change with help, they will only ever remain the same with ignorant remarks.

If you can disprove God, show me, or shut up.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 02:39 AM)

If you can disprove God, show me, or shut up.

Is that how real science could fit in with "god"?
Meem
QUOTE
Science is all "show me or shut up".


Is that how real religion fits in with "science?"
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 03:19 AM)

Is that how real religion fits in with "science?"

Yes. Its how anything fits in with science.

How would you propose that 'real science could fit in with "God"'?
Michael J
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 17 2009, 07:14 PM)
Science is done by people...  People make mistakes and try to cover them up all the time.  So it seems that science would be full of mistakes that are covered up all the time right?  Do the mistake of science start to add when put together and lead us into a terribly wrong direction?

Science is done by people, and yes they do make mistakes, but science has also done a decent job of updating these errors, especially without religious pressure in this day and age. Just try to amend a theory a few hundred years ago wink.gif .

If the scientist does not, another will. Proving somebody wrong, and yourself right is one of the driving forces for me when it comes to my education. I am not a scientist by any means, but i shall be heading into that field in the next few years to come. Maybe my views of science are different than the vast majority, but if i have a chance to put my name in the history books by fixing someone's old theory, i will do so.
Conspiracy just sounds crazy, what is the point or benefit to the science community or even the individual?

If science was always viewed as right from the very start, we'd still consider the earth to be flat. There will always be error, and similarly always at least one person to identify and prove this incorrect theory as being wrong.
gmilam
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 17 2009, 09:39 PM)
ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God."

Which version of "god" should science concern itself with fitting in with?

Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Thor, FSM, Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin?
sporacle
The joy of science is the search for genuine understanding of reality, and it never ends. Authority is irrelevant. Mistakes and reasoned debate are part of the process. BS and trash arguments just make a mess (but eventually always get washed away anyway).

Most scientists don't take the time to address ID stuff and other junk science because there is already a gigantic body of interrelated data and theory about reality, and they're too busy having fun in the shared search for further understanding.

BTW if you expand your definition of a monotheistic God to all reality (pantheism), science and religion are not separate. It's what most of the writers of the ancient texts had in mind anyway (especially post 500 BCE). Make you a bet reality is an unlimited, self-organizing and unified system with no separate controlling entity (no panentheism), and as human beings we all share responsibility for how it evolves on our planet from here on.
iseason
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 18 2009, 08:32 AM)
Could be, except that people also love to uncover examples of other people's incompetence and/or dishonesty.

So, unless there's a big conspiracy, the mistakes and cover ups will eventually be revealed.

Hi all

Pre- suppositions are just as wrong as trying to fool people, however well intentioned. A lot of science is built upon pre- supposition. This is because "within the boundaries we are working on" they seem correct, and or, they allow science to be correct to a tolerable degree. generally it is accepted that "unless PROVEN otherwise, the science is correct.

Unfortunately , this also means heading in the "most correct direction" according to the pre supposition. There are several junctions in history where the greatest opinions, and therefore mainstream science, had to rediscover itself. Until a science can be proved to be utterly irrefutable, this possibility remains.

Maths and science is very reliant on a raft of previously proven truths. These are sums that can be reduced to symbols and used in calculation. They can represent a history of study condensed down to a few lines, but be representative of numerous twists and turns in thinking. These are most often recycled without re investigating their correctness and as maths advances and gets older, some of these will become less correct and in some cases false.

The risk is that we only advance new investigations using truths which were proven while we were learning other thinking. Many rely on things which cannot ACTUALLY be measured , but statistically, the add up until you get into the really large or the really small. So even the best maths falls away at a point. The maths generally decides that it's not important to know it to a closer degree and the proof is enough.

Infinity and 09r are examples of these. Take these away from science (because they cannot be proven, and many functions used will show incorrect conclusions/results. Because of infinity, you can allow the error to fall away with the "vastness of the sum. ". If you were truly honest, you cannot prove infinity, so why should you be able to say it proves ANYTHING .

Cheers
Iseason
flyingbuttressman
iseason,
Thanks for taking so many words to explain the fact that you have no idea how science works. If you did, you would know that the scientific method prevents the errors you were talking about. If you are so hostile to scientific process, why don't you GTFO this forum?
Meem
QUOTE (occidental+Jun 17 2009, 10:26 PM)
Yes.  Its how anything fits in with science.

How would you propose that 'real science could fit in with "God"'?

First I would say, science can't even prove what consciousness is, so if we can't prove that our "mind" is a function of our body, or itself, how can we really be so sure about anything else?

"Real" science doesn't say, I can't disprove, it doesn't exist. Real science says, it is possible so I can't dismiss it. I kind of think of God the way I think of c and time. Two things that can be measured in any frame, to only have certain speeds or durations. If God is forever, what's the difference between a minute and year, a decade and century? Nothing at all what soever. So however long the process of evolution takes what does that really matter? It still doesn't explain going from "primordial ooze" to where we are today. Tesla, and Einstein ... they both contributed a great deal to science ... but in their latter years, they had gone a little loopy trying to do things in science. They aren't the only ones that do it, and it is not something the only sneaks up on people in their latter years. You should be more concerned with Scientology than God. Whatever men are, we certainly are not Gods.

Real religion doesn't read the bible and claim to know God's mind, or thoughts. IF I showed a man back in time a video of a space shuttle launch, how would he describe it? It would only be relative to itself. Would he understand it to be a machine? There's going to be something lost in translation or interpretation. What's dangerous is when people read the bible, and they think they know exactly what it means ... like David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. He had these people thinking that God was coming to Waco Texas, and he would wake people up in the middle of the night and read to them from revelation about the end. Everyone practically ate garbage while he had steaks and sex with their kids ... because he claimed to know about something he could not prove, but people believed him any way.

I can't remember the guy's name ... but he was a popular German guy, that made some sort of "break-through," he did something ... that nobody had been able to do before and all I can remember is the importance of a particular wave graph. HE got a job a very good company, and while people kept waiting and waiting from him to prove something else ... other people started going over his work, and one of them said, this guy has to be wrong and falsifying his results. A couple of people looking over his work got together and compared notes of his work and found the hole in it and shot him down. I am not sure if he was a physicist or a computer science guy ... it's driving me nuts that I can't think of his name. I'll look it up for you,

And show you where science lies, because it's made of men. Anything we do is not perfect, because we aren't ... bound to be error, but there doesn't have to be corruption.

I am not sure if this is what I am thinking of or not ... it's been a while, but their are a lot of examples of religious men making false claims and taking ill action, just like there is in science.

QUOTE
The Cold Fusion Scandal
Such misrepresentation and falsification of evidence happened after Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman (5) announced in March 1989 that they had achieved fusion by electrochemical means. Several influential US laboratories (Caltech(6), MIT (7), Yale/Brookhaven (8)) reported negative results on Cold Fusion that were based on shoddy experimental work and a misunderstanding of the Pons-Fleischmann claims (9). They gave a hostile hot fusion establishment the excuse it needed to conclude that the claims made by Pons and Fleischmann were bogus. In November 1989, a DOE panel concluded the same after a shallow investigation of only seven month (10).

The late Eugene F. Mallove, who was the Chief Science Writer at the MIT News Office at the time and later founded Infinite Energy, a journal dedicated to covering potential new energy sources ignored by mainstream science, played a part in exposing the MIT report as mistaken, possibly fraudulent (11), and resigned in protest over it in 1991. He writes in Ten Years That Shook Physics (12) :
flyingbuttressman
Meem,

QUOTE
First I would say, science can't even prove what consciousness is, so if we can't prove that our "mind" is a function of our body, or itself, how can we really be so sure about anything else?


It seems that you have confused Dualism with fact.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)

Dualism is probably the most common philosophical idea in human history, but that doesn't make it correct. Science doesn't have to explain philosophy. I personally hope that Dualism is indeed fact, but I don't see any evidence for it.
Meem
Black-hole, Big-bang. Two things which are very hard to see.
buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 01:15 PM)
First I would say, science can't even prove what consciousness is, so if we can't prove that our "mind" is a function of our body, or itself, how can we really be so sure about anything else?

Get drunk then tell me our "mind" is not a function of our body.

And your German guy story shows the strength of Science.

What second class scifi writer L Ron Hubbard started is still going strong.
Meem
QUOTE
Get drunk then tell me our "mind" is not a function of our body.

And your German guy story shows the strength of Science.

What second class scifi writer L Ron Hubbard started is still going strong.



For the first, I don't drink to get drunk, because I like to keep my mind in control of my body. Kids get drunk, like derelicts do.

For the second, it also shows it weakness.

For the third, I wholeheartedly agree with part A, part B is something I would like to see worked on. Because it is not real science, nor real religion.


flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 02:29 PM)
For the first, I don't drink to get drunk, because I like to keep my mind in control of my body. Kids get drunk, like derelicts do.

Uhhhh, that wasn't personal. He was saying that alcohol affects the brain, so how could mind and body be separate?

Also, no-one likes a teetotaler.
gmilam
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 09:29 AM)
real religion

Which "real" religion?
Meem
QUOTE
Uhhhh, that wasn't personal. He was saying that alcohol affects the brain, so how could mind and body be separate?


I didn't take it personally, did you? I think it indicates the duality of the mind body problem. What we put into our bodies, or mind, seems to affect them both. Like an idea or alcohol.

Any "real" religion. I'm not here to make unjustified claims.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE
Any "real" religion.

How do you qualify a "real" religion? What's the difference between a "real" and a "fake" religion? I'd watch what I say, you might offend someone.
gmilam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 18 2009, 02:50 PM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I think most tolerant religious people are pissed at $cientology for being a religion, since it robs the word "religion" of all credibility.
buttershug
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 18 2009, 03:18 PM)
I think most tolerant religious people are pissed at $cientology for being a religion, since it robs the word "religion" of all credibility.

There's one on the radio that says that of Wicca.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 18 2009, 04:27 PM)
There's one on the radio that says that of Wicca.

I say all religions should be equal. Why should the majority get to define which religions are "real"?

That's right: Mormons, $cientologists, and Christians, all on the same platform.

Are there any reasons you can think of to disqualify Pastafarians?
AlexG
QUOTE
Are there any reasons you can think of to disqualify Pastafarians?


Because they worship spaghetti?
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 01:15 PM)
First I would say, science can't even prove what consciousness is, so if we can't prove that our "mind" is a function of our body, or itself, how can we really be so sure about anything else?


What does consciousness have to do with "god"?

QUOTE
"Real" science doesn't say, I can't disprove, it doesn't exist.  Real science says, it is possible so I can't dismiss it. 


So in order for science to fit in with "god", youve redefined science to include things of which you have no evidence for their existence. I take back what I said before, you are clever. But theres already a name for that, its not "real science", its called "pseudo-science".
AlexG
Reading something they can understand, that seems to make sense, that presents itself as technically competent, non-scientists are easily gulled by fake science. --Henry H. Bauer
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (AlexG+Jun 18 2009, 05:11 PM)
Because they worship spaghetti?

$cientologists believe in Xenu.
Mormons believe in magical underpants.

All religions have wacky beliefs, I don't know why you would discriminate against Pastafarians.
occidental
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 18 2009, 05:08 PM)
I say all religions should be equal. Why should the majority get to define which religions are "real"?

That's right: Mormons, $cientologists, and Christians, all on the same platform.

Are there any reasons you can think of to disqualify Pastafarians?

I think Meem could help settle this. According to him:
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 14 2009, 03:01 PM)


Spirituality is a process of discovery that has rules which are followed in order to preserve its integrity. In a moral system.


So there must be some way to figure out which god is better. Maybe he could share with us what the rules are?
AlexG
QUOTE
So there must be some way to figure out which god is better.


I'll betcha it's his.
gmilam
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 18 2009, 01:05 PM)
All religions have wacky beliefs, I don't know why you would discriminate against Pastafarians.

I don't know... are they orthodox or reformed?

You know, that parmesan cheese issue....
AlexG
And the whole white sauce - red sauce schism.
Meem
Instead of trying to entertain ourselves with which religion I practice or don't, could we entertain ourselves with what universal theories are correct?

Is string theory accurate and proven? How did it develop, from a prior history, or models?
(note- this is where Scientology gets eliminated from religion and science, it did not develop from a proven -debatable- prior history, like the the spaghetti monster it is)

Are there no other reasonable theories out there? What about the uncertainty principle? Extra dimensions, or infinite dimensions? M-theory?

youtube.com/watch?v=qPWfbZDVcok
occidental
Meem:
QUOTE
Spirituality is a process of discovery that has rules which are followed in order to preserve its integrity.


What are the rules, Meem?

Meem
I would expect honesty or being truthful would be the most important of any rules. And the truth is, I don't know all the rules, but this one.
buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 08:14 PM)
I would expect honesty or being truthful would be the most important of any rules. And the truth is, I don't know all the rules, but this one.

But if you are truthfull then the answer is almost always "I don't know" when dealing with religious issues.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 08:14 PM)
I would expect honesty or being truthful would be the most important of any rules. And the truth is, I don't know all the rules, but this one.

Right. But you said this:
QUOTE
Spirituality is a process of discovery that has rules which are followed in order to preserve its integrity.


And Robdegraves was kind enough to post this, outlining the scientific method:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Spirituality is a process of discovery that has rules which are followed in order to preserve its integrity.


And Robdegraves was kind enough to post this, outlining the scientific method:
  1. Define the question
  2. Gather information and resources (observe)
  3. Form hypothesis
  4. Perform experiment and collect data
  5. Analyze data
  6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
  7. Publish results
  8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?act=Sea...posts&hl=&st=25

So what is the process spirituality uses to preserve its integrity?
magpies
spiritual people understand the value of life. Non spiritual people want to destroy it.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 18 2009, 08:43 PM)
spiritual people understand the value of life. Non spiritual people want to destroy it.

Well then by your logic any faith based or derived on the old testament is surely non spiritual.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 18 2009, 08:43 PM)
spiritual people understand the value of life. Non spiritual people want to destroy it.

You are a f@#king stupid piece of sh1t, you know that? How dare you say that? DIAF
buttershug
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 18 2009, 08:43 PM)
spiritual people understand the value of life. Non spiritual people want to destroy it.

Nobody values life more than Richard Dawkins. I saw him in an interview.
He says this is all there is, so you better value it.
OTOH lots of religious people think this is not the main event and that the real existence is after this one.
Meem
QUOTE (occidental+Jun 18 2009, 03:38 PM)
Right. But you said this:


And Robdegraves was kind enough to post this, outlining the scientific method:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?act=Sea...posts&hl=&st=25

So what is the process spirituality uses to preserve its integrity?

Great observations, are you able to connect them though?

I said the one rule I do know (about spirituality), and I would call the most important is being truthful. Are you expecting me to read you the ten commandments or something? I bet you would love for me to do that.


What does science seek, truth.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 18 2009, 03:43 PM)
spiritual people understand the value of life. Non spiritual people want to destroy it.

How unbelievably stupid can you possibly be?
Non-spiritual people see this life as the only one, and therefore, the most important consideration.

I mean... Seriously, are you brain damaged or mentally handicapped? That has got to be one of the stupidest statements I've ever seen made on this forum.
Michael J
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 18 2009, 08:43 PM)
spiritual people understand the value of life. Non spiritual people want to destroy it.

Does the phrase "Allahu Akbar" and then a sudden explosion come to mind at all?
Meem
QUOTE (Michael J+Jun 18 2009, 08:29 PM)
Does the phrase "Allahu Akbar" and then a sudden explosion come to mind at all?

Does term racist, ignorant, and bigot come to your mind? Do you keep up with the news? Like what's going on in Iran?

Have you ever asked yourself why most Japanese people were rounded up and forced into camps, in the US during WWII? Like the SS rounded up all the Jews? How come the US didn't round up all the Germans, wasn't Germany the larger threat? Lets kill all the Muslims ... that's the "final" solution right? Like Americans did to the American Indians?

The people shouting that (Allauh Akbar) from roof tops are being shot by the people who claim to know what it means. That's the irony of your situation. Go watch Team America, run around and say durka durka every time you see someone that looks like they could be from the middle east.
Michael J
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 02:44 AM)
Have you ever asked yourself why most Japanese people were rounded up and forced into camps, in the US during WWII? Like the SS rounded up all the Jews? How come the US didn't round up all the Germans, wasn't Germany the larger threat? Lets kill all the Muslims ... that's the "final" solution right? Like Americans did to the American Indians?


I aint american, but we got taught this in school here in canada...

Japs got rounded up because of propaganda and paranoia of spies. Actually, it was the ones that were not successful in moving east that were eventually round up and interned. Germany was anti-semitic prior to hitler, whom fed upon this hatred to get power. Again, i'm not sure how the US ran their show, but Canada did round up all the germans, and other eastern europeans whom they viewed as potential spies at one point or another (i am trying to recall if this was ww1 , ww2, or both).

You must be forgetting your history, the US entered ww2 because of japan, then in turn hitler declared war on the US, not the other way around.


However my main point, is that spirituality has in many cases compelled people to do very stupid things, they are called extremists. If none of them believed in their god, then they would not have blown them selves up, correct? Or how about Vince Weiguang Li? His spirituality drove him to behead and consume a man on a bus.

magpies
Yeah and if crazyz didnt believe in science we wouldnt have destroyed the earths magnetic fields with our electricity.
Meem
I haven't forgotten any major parts of history. Like it's also been showed that radar stations reported contacts hours before pearl harbor was attacked. "Oh, it's just birds."

I'm sure a "scientific" man has never done anything extreme to other people. Like electroshock treatments, ridiculous psychology experiments with lack of respect for the subject, drug companies testing products without full disclosure of what's in them. Mans' "horror" is not limited to any-one particular field or practice of belief systems.

abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s1938732.htm
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 10:35 PM)
Great observations, are you able to connect them though?

I said the one rule I do know (about spirituality), and I would call the most important is being truthful. Are you expecting me to read you the ten commandments or something? I bet you would love for me to do that.


What does science seek, truth.

Im expecting you to explain what you said. So you connect them-youre the one who made the claim. What is the process spirituality uses to preserve its integrity?

Is it a part of your sacred knowledge and thats why you wont say? Or was that just more empty rhetoric from you?


Meem
QUOTE (occidental+Jun 18 2009, 11:54 PM)
Im expecting you to explain what you said. So you connect them-youre the one who made the claim. What is the process spirituality uses to preserve its integrity?

Is it a part of your sacred knowledge and thats why you wont say? Or was that just more empty rhetoric from you?

Truth, the act of seeking it. Something you don't seem to understand.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 05:23 AM)
Truth, the act of seeking it.  Something you don't seem to understand.

Then help me to see the truth meem. Im trying to understand what you said. But since youve been so evasive, I can only conclude that what you said is just meaningless creationist rhetoric. So put up or shut up Meem, because the bs youre pushing isnt science. Something you dont seem to understand.
Meem
Who's pushing who here? You have never answered any of my questions. I've answered plenty of yours time and time again. I refuse you one, "my" full definition of what is yours to decide for yourself. So if it is nothing you want, it is nothing I am going to give you, and nothing you will find.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 05:38 AM)
Who's pushing who here?  You have never answered any of my questions.  I've answered plenty of yours time and time again.  I refuse you one, "my" full definition of what is yours to decide for yourself.  So if it is nothing you want, it is nothing I am going to give you, and nothing you will find.

No problem meem. I had no idea it would be so hard for you to explain what you meant.


But do you think you could explain what you meant by this:
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 02:39 AM)
ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God." 

Sounds a little pushy to me.
Meem
Educate "religious" people about science, not about your opinion of it, where it is leading, or where it has come from, both are things you will not be able to define in your lifetime, unless you know something I don't.

Uneducated people live in fear of what they do not understand, far as I am concerned that doesn't make religion or science all that different. They both seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of time and how it doesn't need someone to measure it to exist. "Something" is possible whether I think, or know it is or is not. I cannot dunk a basketball. Don't try reading so much into what I am saying, because what I am saying is ... would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?
iseason
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 19 2009, 01:45 AM)
iseason,
Thanks for taking so many words to explain the fact that you have no idea how science works. If you did, you would know that the scientific method prevents the errors you were talking about. If you are so hostile to scientific process, why don't you GTFO this forum?

wrap up abuse any way you like. it's still abuse.

I never said I hate science. Where do you get that idea from. When I say that science pre-supposes, that's exactly it's function as well as it's weakness. Nobody could consider themselves an island where learning and information is concerned. However you pose an interesting question.

Where do you see this era of investigation?.......in a hundred years or a thousand, what will they say about how we viewed the universe with our current perspectives?Before you answer this , you may want to consider how many times in history the beat changed and thrust forwards. It did not simply begin in any modern era. I have seen written that we have found more in the last hundred years than in the rest of history combined. What junk!!...

We may find modern discoveries more useful to what we currently understand and do, but we certainly have not done or advanced more quickly than we did before. There are always side roads, and always were. It's the side roads that are important to new discovery. You think that mainstream investigation that concentrates on popular subjects is best?....Far from it.....It was the other camp that moved things along by challenging what was considered fact,in many cases not really knowing what all the facts were, but knowing they were not all there is.

But you are interested in defending science for sciences sake . That's not very productive. I would rather see how you can prove anything in science to be absolutely correct and irrefutable. It only takes a variation of one part to change everything you hold dear and turn it on it's head. This is actually what drives science on . to get a MORE CORRECT picture than it already has. Your statement has it being able to rest on it's laurels, because it has already done it's job...My statement is that until it has the completed picture......all science is pre-supposition...useful, but still pre - supposition..

Cheers
Iseason
buttershug
The "pre-suppostion" is based on evidence not desire.
And still nothing comes close to Science. You keep putting it down but there is simply no reliable alternative.

No one can answer the questions it can't. (reliably that is)
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 06:18 AM)
Educate "religious" people about science, not about your opinion of it, where it is leading, or where it has come from, both are things you will not be able to define in your lifetime, unless you know something I don't.

Uneducated people live in fear of what they do not understand, far as I am concerned that doesn't make religion or science all that different.

It's not our job to explicitly educate religious people. Religious people shouldn't have a special right to additional, special education. If you want to learn about science, learn with everyone else, in high school, in college, etc. Not once have I heard about a high school or college teacher who claimed that science and religion are incompatible.

Trying to learn about science on the internet is like trying to study the rule of law in the wild west; it doesn't exactly come out the way it's supposed to.

QUOTE
They both seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of time and how it doesn't need someone to measure it to exist.

Since when?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
They both seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of time and how it doesn't need someone to measure it to exist.

Since when?

would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?

Ummm, yes, and everyone did think that they were crazy.
gmilam
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 01:18 AM)
They both seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of time and how it doesn't need someone to measure it to exist.

Sounds like you've been listening to too much of the Fred A Wolf school of Quantum nonsense.

MjolnirPants
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 18 2009, 09:44 PM)
Does term racist, ignorant, and bigot come to your mind? Do you keep up with the news? Like what's going on in Iran?

Did you miss the "and then a sudden explosion" part you complete mоrоn?

He's referring to the sentiment you expressed being a major component of the ideology behind Islamic terrorism. And that's a fact. They view the western world as secular, and therefore evil. It's the same sentiment you expressed you ignorant idiot.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 06:18 AM)
Educate "religious" people about science, not about your opinion of it, where it is leading, or where it has come from, both are things you will not be able to define in your lifetime, unless you know something I don't.

Uneducated people live in fear of what they do not understand, far as I am concerned that doesn't make religion or science all that different. They both seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of time and how it doesn't need someone to measure it to exist. "Something" is possible whether I think, or know it is or is not.  I cannot dunk a basketball.  Don't try reading so much into what I am saying, because what I am saying is ... would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?

Right. Except I asked you to explain what you meant when you said:
QUOTE
ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God." 


So now youre saying:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God." 


So now youre saying:
would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?
is the same as saying
QUOTE


ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God." 


Looks like some serious backtracking Meem. In fact, it looks like this is another statement youve made thats nothing more than empty creationist rhetoric.

So lets try to understand what youre saying, again, meem.

How should science educate people on how real science can fit in with god? And more to the point, Id like to ask how you would go about testing for something that youve already said has no evidence of its existence?
Meem
All of you are so funny, in a terribly tragic and closed mind way. For the record, I got a 23 on my ACT 6 years after high-school. I was put in science olympiad in third grade. In 4th grade I had a college level reading comprehension. In 6th grade I decided it was more important to be popular, like your friendly little gang here, and go around insulting people with my "superior" intellect. In 7th grade I was invited to the magnet program, but I did not go because I wanted to be "normal." In 9th grade my practical law teacher had it arranged to where I would be taking my SAT's and ACT's after school that year to go to college.

I dropped out because, I thought the reason for living was to run around with the group, being cool, funny, and wreck-less was cool. I've learned a lot about living, because that's what I did. It was a hard lesson, but not one I would trade anything for. I was also accepted to Atlanta college of art, on a sketch book not a portfolio, but I never went because I got a job, apartment, and a car so I could date a girl, and during that time I was approached by a baseball scout for a college team, but I didn't go because I was "in love." I joined the army after I broke up with her, and it seems 90% percent of the people I met in the Army were like most people ready to insult me on this thread. Assuming that what ever is right, is theirs because ... they have been in longer than you, have more stars or stripes on their "shoulders," and automatically assume that makes them more intelligent then the man just entering. It only makes them better versed or experienced in the terms of the army. I always had a hard time not saying anything to an idiot "above" me who thought he knew it all. I always had more respect for the people who never claimed to know everything, but were always trying to learn, and weren't afraid to be wrong in the process, because that is often where success is realized, through failure.

QUOTE
Did you miss the "and then a sudden explosion" part you complete mоrоn?

He's referring to the sentiment you expressed being a major component of the ideology behind Islamic terrorism. And that's a fact. They view the western world as secular, and therefore evil. It's the same sentiment you expressed you ignorant idiot.


So genius, the people protesting in Iran are terrorists then? Is terrorism limited to being Muslim? Ever hear of the IRA, KKK, or Physforum? Does that thought suddenly explode for you?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Did you miss the "and then a sudden explosion" part you complete mоrоn?

He's referring to the sentiment you expressed being a major component of the ideology behind Islamic terrorism. And that's a fact. They view the western world as secular, and therefore evil. It's the same sentiment you expressed you ignorant idiot.


So genius, the people protesting in Iran are terrorists then? Is terrorism limited to being Muslim? Ever hear of the IRA, KKK, or Physforum? Does that thought suddenly explode for you?

And more to the point, Id like to ask how you would go about testing for something that youve already said has no evidence of its existence?


Like another dimension, universe, string ... theory?

QUOTE
So now youre saying:
QUOTE 
would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?

is the same as saying
QUOTE 


ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God."  


I'm sorry you fail to understand that comparison doesn't mean exactly the same. Keep finding difference, and that is all you will ever have.

There are these comments about my sacred religious system that I cannot share with those who aren't worthy, and that science doesn't do that. Then you say,
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So now youre saying:
QUOTE 
would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?

is the same as saying
QUOTE 


ID is what it is because science doesn't haven't enough balls to educate people, how real science could fit in with "God."  


I'm sorry you fail to understand that comparison doesn't mean exactly the same. Keep finding difference, and that is all you will ever have.

There are these comments about my sacred religious system that I cannot share with those who aren't worthy, and that science doesn't do that. Then you say,

It's not our job to explicitly educate religious people. Religious people shouldn't have a special right to additional, special education. If you want to learn about science, learn with everyone else, in high school, in college, etc. Not once have I heard about a high school or college teacher who claimed that science and religion are incompatible.

Then people wonder why things happen the way they do. Who said explicitly, me or you? Then you insult with the special education comment. Insults and threats, how is anyone in high-school or college going to learn anything from people that "claim" to be scientific when that is the attitude which is expressed toward them if "god" comes up? High School teachers don't write a whole lot of books, they read them. It's up to the people writing science to do it justly, not the people reading it, unless you want more people writing their own like Magpies. That is your result. I hope you enjoy that strategy.


QUOTE
Sounds like you've been listening to too much of the Fred A Wolf school of Quantum nonsense


I find it funny that you know who he is, and I don't. I've listed the people I listen to and read.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Sounds like you've been listening to too much of the Fred A Wolf school of Quantum nonsense


I find it funny that you know who he is, and I don't. I've listed the people I listen to and read.


Do not expect justice where might is right.
Plato

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.
Plato

The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness… This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs, when he first appears he is a protector.
Plato


I've found another forum to have civil disscussion on. Where people are there to cast opinion and insult to make their feeble selves feel better, so rejoice. I am dead.

QUOTE
"The hour of departure has arrived,
and we go our ways:
I to die, and you to live.
Which is better, God only knows."


Socrates
buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 06:18 AM)
would the Wright Brothers have ever flown if they believed it when everyone told them they were crazy?

You are missing the point.
THEY FLEW!!!
They answered the "Show me" group of people known as scientists.

ID has not shown any real results. If anything IDer's end up strengthing Evolution Theory.

Do you not understand the difference between those two examples?

One group "put up" the other group has not but won't "shut up".

And some people in the Wright Brother's time said things like "If God had meant us to fly, he would have given us wing." You make it sound like it was scientists that said it was impossible.
buttershug
Don't you mean Plato?
My understanding is that Socrates was a materialist.
And Plato was from the other camp.
occidental
Since you cant explain what you've said, its just as well that you leave.

At least you understand the concept of "put up or shut up".
Meem
You are stuck on ID, I am not. Holy freaking cow crap. I made ONE comment, you people need to get over it already.

And some people cold "look" at it and say, well "God" did give us wings through the Wright Brothers. Such cannon fodder nonsense, only willing to see an issue from one particular point of view, is not sound. That is how people get mislead, and that is why there is so much division.

Plato learned most of what he knew from observing and being Socrates friend.

The last quote is what Socrates said before he drank hemlock, to kill him, at the order of mob rule. Like what's going on here.


Goodbye.

(edit)
Posted on Today at 11:26 AM
Since you cant explain what you've said, its just as well that you leave.

At least you understand the concept of "put up or shut up

You liked to use the term sockpuppet, but yet you fail to realize how you're some-one's meat-puppet. What's it like to have another man crammed inside of you occidental? You blistering twit.

BAN ME NOW, for the love of Science!!!!
buttershug
But Socrates and Plato were from a time when spiritualists ruled and materialists were put to death.
Spiritualists have had thousands of years to make their point.
Socrates was from the side you opposing. He was a thinker.

Now materialists are getting the upper hand. (but not condeming spiritualists to death.)

Daedelis(sp) didn't teach people to fly, the Wright Brothers did.
Meem
plato.stanford.edu/entries/materialism-eliminative/

QUOTE
4.2 Rejecting the Theory-Theory

In section 2, we saw that eliminative materialism typically rests upon a particular understanding of the nature of folk psychology. The next criticism of eliminative materialism challenges the various characterizations of folk psychology provided by its advocates — in particular the view set forth by advocates of the theory-theory. This criticism comes from two very distinct traditions. The first tradition is at least partly due to the writings of Wittgenstein (1953) and Ryle (1949), and insists that (contra many eliminativists) common sense psychology is not a quasi-scientific theory used to explain or predict behavior, nor does it treat mental states like beliefs as discrete inner causes of behavior (Bogdan, 1991; Haldane, 1988; Hannan, 1993; Wilkes, 1993). What folk psychology actually does treat beliefs and desires as is much less clear in this tradition. One perspective (Dennett, 1987) is that propositional attitudes are actually dispositional states that we use to adopt a certain heuristic stance toward rational agents. According to this view, our talk about mental states should be interpreted as talk about abstracta that, although real, are not candidates for straightforward reduction or elimination as the result of cognitive science research. Moreover, since beliefs and other mental states are used for so many things besides the explanation of human behavior, it is far from clear that our explanatory theories about inner workings of the mind/brain have much relevance for their actual status.

Defenders of eliminative materialism often point out that folk theories typically have many functions beyond explaining and predicting, but that doesn't alter their theoretical status nor innoculate their posits from elimination (P.M. Churchland, 1993). Moreover, while eliminativists have typically framed the vulnerability of commonsense mental notions in terms of a false folk psychological theory, it is important to note that, at least in principle, eliminativism does not require such an assumption. Indeed, eliminativism only requires two basic claims: 1) that we share concepts of mental states that include some sort of requirements that any state or structure must meet to qualify as a mental state of that sort, and 2) the world is such that nothing comes close to meeting those requirements. The first of these claims is not terribly controversial and while the requirements for beliefs might come as part of an explanatory theory, they don't need to. Hence, one common criticism of eliminativism — that our invoking of beliefs and desires is not a theoretical or quasi-scientific endeavor — has very limited force. Cherubs, presumably, are not part of any sort of quasi-scientific theory, yet this alone is no reason to think they might exist. Even if it should turn out that we do not (or do not simply) posit beliefs and other propositional attitudes as part of some sort of explanatory-predictive framework, it may still turn out that there are no such things.

The second perspective criticizing the theory-theory is based on research in contemporary cognitive science, and stems from a different model of the nature of our explanatory and predictive practices (Gordon, 1986, 1992; Goldman, 1992). Known as the “simulation theory”, this alternative model holds that we predict and explain behavior not by using a theory, but by instead running an off-line simulation of how we would act in a comparable situation. That is, according to this picture, we disconnect our own decision-making sub-system and then feed it pretend beliefs and desires (and perhaps other relevant data) that we assume the agent whose behavior we are trying to predict is likely to possess. This allows us to generate both predictions and explanations of others by simply employing cognitive machinery that we already possess. In effect, the simulation theory claims that our reasoning about the minds and behavior of others is not significantly different from putting ourselves in their shoes. Thus, no full-blown theory of the mind is ever needed. Simulations theorists claim that, contrary to the assumptions of eliminative materialism, no theory of the mind exists that could one day prove false.

Both sides of this debate between the theory-theory and the simulation theory have used empirical work from developmental psychology to support their case (Stich and Nichols, 1992; Gordon, 1992). For example, theory-theorists have noted that developmental psychologists like Henry Wellman and Alison Gopnik have used various findings to suggest that children go through phases that are analogous to the phases one would go through when acquiring a theory (Gopnik and Wellman, 1992). Moreover, children appear to ascribe beliefs to themselves in the same way they ascribe beliefs to others. Theory-theorists have used considerations such as these to support their claim that our notion of belief is employed as the posit of a folk theory rather than input to a simulation model. At the same time, simulation theorists have employed the finding that 3-year-olds struggle with false belief ascriptions to suggest that children are actually ascribing their own knowledge to others, something that might be expected on the simulation account (Gordon, 1986).

4.3 Defending the Virtues of Folk Psychology
Even among theory-theorists there is considerable disagreement about the plausibility of eliminative materialism. A third criticism of eliminative materialism is that it ignores the remarkable success of folk psychology, success that suggests it offers a more accurate account of mental processes than eliminativists appreciate. Apart from the strong intuitive evidence that seems to reveal beliefs and desires, we also enjoy a great deal of success when we use common sense psychology to predict the actions of other people. Many have noted that this high degree of success provides us with something like an inference-to-the-best-explanation argument in favor of common sense psychology and against eliminativism. The best explanation for the success we enjoy in explaining and predicting human and animal behavior is that folk psychology is roughly true, and that there really are beliefs (Kitcher, 1984; Fodor, 1987; Lahav, 1992).

A common eliminativist response to this argument is to re-emphasize a lesson from the philosophy of science; namely, that any theory — especially one that is as near and dear to us as folk psychology — can often appear successful even when it completely misrepresents reality. History demonstrates that we often discount anomalies, ignore failures as insignificant, and generally attribute more success to a popular theory than it deserves. Like the proponents of vitalism or phlogiston theory, we may be blind to the failings of folk psychology until an alternative account is in hand (P. M. Churchland, 1981; P. S. Churchland, 1986).

While many defenders of folk psychology insist that folk psychology is explanatorily strong, some defenders have gone in the opposite direction, arguing that it is committed to far less than eliminativists have typically assumed (Horgan, 1993; Horgan and Graham, 1991; Jackson and Pettit, 1990). According to these writers, folk psychology, while indeed a theory, is a relatively “austere” (i.e., ontologically non-committal) theory, and requires very little for vindication. Consequently, these authors conclude that when properly described, folk psychology can be seen as compatible with a very wide range of neuroscientific or cognitive developments, making eliminative materialism possible but unlikely.

Of course, folk theories are like any theories in that they can be partly right and partly wrong. Even writers who are sympathetic to eliminativism, such as John Bickle and Patricia Churchland (Bickle, 1992; P.M. Churchland, 1994) point out that the history of science is filled with with cases where the conceptual machinery of a flawed theory is neither smoothly carried over to a new theory, nor fully eliminated. Instead, it is substantially modified and reworked, with perhaps only some of its posits being dropped altogether. Thus, full-blown eliminative materialism and complete reductionism are end-points on a continuum with many possibilities falling somewhere in between. The term “revisionary materialism” is often invoked to denote the view that the theoretical framework of folk psychology will only be eliminated to a degree, and that various dimensions of our commensense conception of the mind will be at least partly vindicated.

4.4 Eliminativism Eliminated?
One final argument against eliminative materialism comes from the recent writings of a former supporter, Stephen Stich (1991, 1996). Stich's argument is somewhat complex, but it can be presented in outline form here. Earlier we saw that eliminative materialism is committed to the claim that the posits of folk psychology fail to refer to anything. But as Stich points out, just what this claim amounts to is far from clear. For example, we might think that reference failure occurs as the result of some degree of mismatch between reality and the theory in which the posit is embedded. But there is no clear consensus on how much of a mismatch is necessary before we can say a given posit doesn't exist. Stich offers a variety of reasons for thinking that there are fundamental difficulties that will plague any attempt to provide principled criteria for distinguishing cases of reference success from cases of reference failure. Consequently, the question of whether a theory change should be ontologically conservative or radical has no clear answer. Because eliminative materialism rests on the assumption that folk psychology should be replaced in a way that is ontologically radical, Stich's account pulls the rug out from under the eliminativist. Of course, this is a problem for the folk psychology realist as well as the eliminativist, since Stich's skeptical argument challenges our grounds for distinguishing the two.

occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 04:32 PM)
Meem
QUOTE (occidental+Jun 19 2009, 01:06 PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J---aiyznGQ

I'm not gonna look at your inability to offer something worthwhile, that I could watch on Jerry Springer you uncultured ingrate. I don't even have to look at it to know it's some empty minded insult, which is allowed to carry on in this APPAULING claim that this forum is scientific. Science has ethics, not ethnic cleansing. I bet your brain looks like a smooth egg, and just as easily cracks, unlike a pot.

Try reading something, if the words aren't too hard for you to swallow, meat-puppet.

QUOTE
4.4 Eliminativism Eliminated?
One final argument against eliminative materialism comes from the recent writings of a former supporter, Stephen Stich (1991, 1996). Stich's argument is somewhat complex, but it can be presented in outline form here. Earlier we saw that eliminative materialism is committed to the claim that the posits of folk psychology fail to refer to anything. But as Stich points out, just what this claim amounts to is far from clear. For example, we might think that reference failure occurs as the result of some degree of mismatch between reality and the theory in which the posit is embedded. But there is no clear consensus on how much of a mismatch is necessary before we can say a given posit doesn't exist. Stich offers a variety of reasons for thinking that there are fundamental difficulties that will plague any attempt to provide principled criteria for distinguishing cases of reference success from cases of reference failure. Consequently, the question of whether a theory change should be ontologically conservative or radical has no clear answer. Because eliminative materialism rests on the assumption that folk psychology should be replaced in a way that is ontologically radical, Stich's account pulls the rug out from under the eliminativist. Of course, this is a problem for the folk psychology realist as well as the eliminativist, since Stich's skeptical argument challenges our grounds for distinguishing the two
.
buttershug
It still comes down to certainty vs accuracy.

I think even the idea of "eliminative materialism" is backwards. It should be "additive marterialism". That is nothing is added untill it's demonstrated reliably.

Untlll then it's at best a maybe.
gmilam
Trust me, you'll be happier on a philosophy forum.

They're not concerned with letting evidence/facts get in their way.
flyingbuttressman
Meem,

This is what it would look like if you and magpies had a get-together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLpx_yioYik

Please tell me that you have a sense of irony. Before you start commenting on how low-class our comments are, consider what you have said:
QUOTE
All of you are so funny, in a terribly tragic and closed mind way. For the record, I got a 23 on my ACT 6 years after high-school. I was put in science olympiad in third grade. In 4th grade I had a college level reading comprehension. In 6th grade I decided it was more important to be popular, like your friendly little gang here, and go around insulting people with my "superior" intellect. In 7th grade I was invited to the magnet program, but I did not go because I wanted to be "normal." In 9th grade my practical law teacher had it arranged to where I would be taking my SAT's and ACT's after school that year to go to college.


Sounds like you've got your head a little too far up your own a.s.s.
Meem
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 19 2009, 05:03 PM)
Meem,

This is what it would look like if you and magpies had a get-together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLpx_yioYik

Please tell me that you have a sense of irony. Before you start commenting on how low-class our comments are, consider what you have said:


Sounds like you've got your head a little too far up your own a.s.s.

Hey, genius ... was that before or after you insinuated that I was retard? At least my head is up mine own @$$ and not some-one else's. Twit undercover.

I'm gonna stay around long enough to blemish your perfect little feedback record. Oh no! Someone, quick don't let him kill my internet ID-iot-ology.



QUOTE
It still comes down to certainty vs accuracy.

I think even the idea of "eliminative materialism" is backwards. It should be "additive marterialism". That is nothing is added untill it's demonstrated reliably.

Untlll then it's at best a maybe


You demonstrate that by learning something, if you think you don't and you're just born with it, maybe you should stop reading?

flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 10:27 PM)
Hey, genius ... was that before or after you insinuated that I was retard? At least my head is up mine own @$$ and not some-one else's. Twit undercover.

I'm gonna stay around long enough to blemish your perfect little feedback record. Oh no! Someone, quick don't let him kill my internet ID-iot-ology.

Meem,

I think that you really don't understand what your problem is. It's not any lack of intelligence on your part, but it's with your contempt for people who don't share your views on religion. No matter what it was in the past, in modern times, the church has put its full force against evolution and any science which contradicts its sensibilities. Religious people paint themselves into a corner by claiming that science cannot explain this or that, and are made to look like fools when science does just that.

I understand that you don't like it when atheists say that there is no room for god in science. On the other hand, why is it that there are no mentions of god, positive or negative in scientific journals?

You are trying to change science from the outside, by criticizing, but what you are really doing is making yourself look like an ignorant crank. There are ways of going about what you are trying to accomplish, and posting your philosophical insights on this forum is not one of them. There is no room in science for philosophy.

I posted the South Park vid because it demonstrates what you are making yourself look like. In reality, very few people on this forum *really* know what they are talking about in regards to science. This means that everyone here is here to *learn*, not to change the world through their scientific insights. I troll you because of your disrespect for what this forum stands for, your disrespect for scientific methodology, and your *apparent* ignorance of both.

I look forward to hearing your response. (btw, good guess on the age thing wink.gif

buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 10:27 PM)

You demonstrate that by learning something, if you think you don't and you're just born with it, maybe you should stop reading?

The whole question is HOW you learn.

Do you learn "spiritually" or "materialistically"?

Do you say "I don't know" until you have reason to believe something?
Or do you just go by a feeling or worse by someone elses feeling? Or much worse, someone else you never even met.

I'm trying to figure you out. You sometimes talk like you are on the "spiritualist" side of the philosophy but then you compare yourself to the first enemy of "spirituality" (Socrates). And now you put down the main way of spiritualist learning. That they are born with it.

It would be like if we were collecting cash and one of us checked each bill to make sure it wasn't counterfit and the other was taking all cash. Even bills others had proven to be counterfit.
Meem
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 19 2009, 05:55 PM)
Meem,

I think that you really don't understand what your problem is. It's not any lack of intelligence on your part, but it's with your contempt for people who don't share your views on religion. No matter what it was in the past, in modern times, the church has put its full force against evolution and any science which contradicts its sensibilities. Religious people paint themselves into a corner by claiming that science cannot explain this or that, and are made to look like fools when science does just that.

I understand that you don't like it when atheists say that there is no room for god in science. On the other hand, why is it that there are no mentions of god, positive or negative in scientific journals?

You are trying to change science from the outside, by criticizing, but what you are really doing is making yourself look like an ignorant crank. There are ways of going about what you are trying to accomplish, and posting your philosophical insights on this forum is not one of them. There is no room in science for philosophy.

I posted the South Park vid because it demonstrates what you are making yourself look like. In reality, very few people on this forum *really* know what they are talking about in regards to science. This means that everyone here is here to *learn*, not to change the world through their scientific insights. I troll you because of your disrespect for what this forum stands for, your disrespect for scientific methodology, and your *apparent* ignorance of both.

I look forward to hearing your response. (btw, good guess on the age thing wink.gif

Para1) Have I, ever stated my views on religion? Science does not paint religion into a corner, it paints a fool into a corner if they don't know any better. Just like a fool's religion painted David Koresh into his sick little corner. I know what my problem is, and it's not be arrogant, it's not being afraid of someone other than my owns point of view, which will never change or alter my scientific grounding.
We are not in the past anymore, let it go.

It's like the same premise of African American talking about how white people owned slaves. I have never owned a slave, have you? I don't want to hear about your problems dealing with the past, that didn't even involve you. Today does, and all you're doing is crying how your great grandfather was persecuted, so were Jews, Indians, and just about everyone else. Unless somewhere your included in the "true" upper-class, having vast sums of money for more than 3 generations, your family more than likely has been taken advantage of somewhere in history. This is, I am sure I can't be clear enough, not a direct comment at you, this is a counter example. I'm trying to avoid talking about religion at all costs, because it is in-fact so terrible and heinous to discuss, when thinking about tomorrow.

Para 2) Primarily, because of exactly what you said, because most scientists don't believe in God, and the ones that do, if they mention anything about God at all, would not be taken seriously at all, because God is just some giant cosmic joke. Like what came first, the cosmic egg or chicken? Science is Einstein's and Newton's had discussion on God, much like Darwin did, which is ironically ... the holy grail guardian of atheism. You don't want intelligent conversation about God ... then keep dealing with cranks, because you're waving a banner. F__k your God, whoever it is.

Para 3) There is no room in science for philosophy? What are ethics? Why am I outside of science? I exist, am I not a scientific reality? Maybe I should take some lesson from Magpies and learn some Jedi mind-tricks so I don't have this problem of being underestimated or mislabeled.

Reality, 90% of the world population believes in God. Unless you are in the top 10% of educated minds (which I imagine more than a few of those do believe in some God) you're no better than anyone else. So, keep promoting the idea that God is not scientifically possible, and when something is happening ... like climate change ... and you try to tell them about the say screw you and your science. Or when you try to explain to them, CERN is not going to create a black-hole that will swallow the earth they don't believe you and they won't listen to the intelligence of it what so ever, because you have been pissing in their Cheerios for years. 10% of the worlds population .... can do what without the other 90%? What good is science if the people that need it the most are afraid to believe in it because it's promoted as destroying their deeply held beliefs? There has to be some ethical, moral, philosophical standard and or concern for the advancement of our species.
If you can't see that, that's fine.

If I can't prove God and should shut up, why can't "science" disprove God or shut up? Nobody can do it, because evolution sure as hell doesn't, that's just a gimmick ... like only solar activity drives climate.
We have been in a solar cyclical downtrend for the past decade, when avg. temps were going up, and ice mass and density have been going down. The Arctic was estimated to be ice free first around 2060, then 2040, and now 2013 according to data trends and estimates (done by NSIDC), that shows you how accurate science is ... as accurate as the hairless monkeys inputting the data. tropical storms have always historically developed off of the coast of Africa ... one popped up in the north Atlantic a few hundred miles off the east coast (the coinphrase is pop-up hurricanes) ... for the first time ever recorded this year ... ya, that's normal. We have already entered the up turn in solar cycle activity, the proverbial sh_t is about to get worse. And people don't want to believe in it because it's being promoted by a bunch of people who tell them, you're nothing but a crazy idiot ... 90% of the world's population ... nothing is going to be unless people actually try to unite somehow without blatant disrespect for one another.

The vast majority of science supports climate change .... and if science is so eff-in pure and exact ... how come there are idiots out there denying the data ... what a hypocritical joke.
Meem
And if I have to spell it out in any certain terms or conditions for anyone, Climate Change is the chance of dialogue between "crazy-hypocritical" science and religion.

Believe in God, respect "creation." Believe in science, look at the effin data.

QUOTE
The whole question is HOW you learn.

Do you learn "spiritually" or "materialistically"?

Do you say "I don't know" until you have reason to believe something?
Or do you just go by a feeling or worse by someone elses feeling? Or much worse, someone else you never even met.

I'm trying to figure you out. You sometimes talk like you are on the "spiritualist" side of the philosophy but then you compare yourself to the first enemy of "spirituality" (Socrates). And now you put down the main way of spiritualist learning. That they are born with it.

It would be like if we were collecting cash and one of us checked each bill to make sure it wasn't counterfit and the other was taking all cash. Even bills others had proven to be counterfit.


I mean mentally and physically, any other term is an adjective.

I say I don't know till I have experience or proof, I keep my illogical suspicions to myself. If I ever go on feeling, I will go on my own, maybe I would go on some one's reason, if I knew them long enough, or didn't find too many flaws in their reasoning.

Technically, Socrates believed in God, or that was the way Plato portrayed him. He said, whatever God is, God wasn't the trite human emotionally troubled Gods of ancient Greece, and that was what got him in-trouble with everyone. I like Plato far more than I like Socrates, he was a pr_ck, but Plato liked him anyway.

To an extent, I think certain people are born with certain aptitudes or predispositions, it's genetic.

My precise philosophical standpoint is duality, night and day. Not mind, not body, but both with no certain way to explain how they interact, just that they do.

buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 20 2009, 01:36 AM)
Reality, 90% of the world population believes in God.

Reality is, most of them are very wrong about most of their beliefs about God.

Even if you only take the religious people. And you take the biggest group of them being right. That group is still a minority.

And the pickier you get the smaller the biggest group is.

If they were right, and God does talk to people then why such diversity?

OTOH scienitists claim no such cohesive entity. But yet they are more cohesive than the religous people.


And if I have to spell it out in any certain terms or conditions, The end of Church rule is the chance of dialogue between "crazy-hypocritical" "God hates fags" religions and "we are all subject to the same reality" "life is too short and valuable to waste" scientists.

Believe in God, respect hearsay from people you never met and believe in campfire stories, not your own experience and stop learning because that might contradict your baseless beliefs.. Believe in science, look at reality.


Edit and basically stop trying to hit a home run in football. just doesn't work.

On another forum I argued ten times more strenuously with strong atheists who thought they used pure logic. One of them was studying science. Then he switched to law and I was amoung the people who he said helped influence that decision.
gmilam
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 08:36 PM)
Unless you are in the top 10% of educated minds (which I imagine more than a few of those do believe in some God) you're no better than anyone else.

Even if you are in the top 10%, you are no "better" than anyone else.
flyingbuttressman
Ok, Meem, ***? did you even read what I wrote?

QUOTE
Science does not paint religion into a corner, it paints a fool into a corner if they don't know any better.


What I actually said:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Science does not paint religion into a corner, it paints a fool into a corner if they don't know any better.


What I actually said:
Religious people paint themselves into a corner by claiming that science cannot explain this or that, and are made to look like fools when science does just that.

You get a 0 on comprehension

QUOTE
We are not in the past anymore, let it go.

Wow, again, the complete opposite of what I said.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We are not in the past anymore, let it go.

Wow, again, the complete opposite of what I said.

Maybe I should take some lesson from Magpies and learn some Jedi mind-tricks so I don't have this problem of being underestimated or mislabeled.

Ok, you've officially gone off the deep end.

QUOTE
Reality, 90% of the world population believes in God.

Wow, way to pull a fake statistic out of your ***. Remember that Buddhists don't believe in god. Hindus believe in plural gods.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Reality, 90% of the world population believes in God.

Wow, way to pull a fake statistic out of your ***. Remember that Buddhists don't believe in god. Hindus believe in plural gods.

So, keep promoting the idea that God is not scientifically possible, and when something is happening ... like climate change ... and you try to tell them about the say screw you and your science. Or when you try to explain to them, CERN is not going to create a black-hole that will swallow the earth they don't believe you and they won't listen to the intelligence of it what so ever, because you have been pissing in their Cheerios for years.

Maybe it could be that people who think they know better reject facts that they aren't comfortable with? Perhaps you're forgetting the many many religious people who accept evolution and global warming as fact? It's bigger than just a few loud atheists.

QUOTE
The vast majority of science supports climate change .... and if science is so eff-in pure and exact ... how come there are idiots out there denying the data ... what a hypocritical joke.

The fact that the Earth is warming is not in dispute by anyone. What IS in dispute are the causes, extent, and effects of Global Warming.

I understand why you are angry, but I think you need to reconsider what your purpose here is. This is a place to learn, not a soapbox for your whining.
Grasshopper
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 18 2009, 12:04 AM)
Scientists reject Intelligent Design because it is complete and utter bullsh1t.

Just read the first paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design



You NEG reped me?

THAT POST WAS SARCASM!


Sorry mate. We're on the same team here, but an eye for an eye...


QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 18 2009, 12:23 AM)
ID is dogma.
It starts with the belief in God.
And sticks with it despite evidence.

When there is a conflict between belief and evidence, religion rejects evidence, and science rejects belief.

Edit the real question is can anything other than science be honest?
Science is all "show me or shut up".
Religion is "shut and have faith".

At one time transposons went against what was believed about genetics.
Very few people (if more than one) believed them but she gave the evidence and scientists changed their beliefs to match the evidence.


Again, let's make sure our sarcasm detectors are in working order please. laugh.gif
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Grasshopper+Jun 20 2009, 03:17 AM)
You NEG reped me?

THAT POST WAS SARCASM!

Sorry mate. We're on the same team here, but an eye for an eye...

Dude, I'm sorry, I fail at sarcasm sad.gif

After I did that I was looking at some of your other posts, and I started to wonder sad.gif

I will give you a positive as soon as I am able.
occidental
Well, I havent laughed that hard in a long time. Thank you meem. ANd thank you for these kind words:
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 04:32 PM)


You liked to use the term sockpuppet, but yet you fail to realize how you're some-one's meat-puppet.  What's it like to have another man crammed inside of you occidental? You blistering twit.

I liked to use the term sockpuppet in regard to Lui DiMartino, but what does that have to do with you? And exactly who's meat-puppet do you think I am? If youre accusing me of being or using a sockpuppet in my discussions with you, then you are flat out wrong. Still funny though. And why do you feel the need to resort to namecalling?

But lets not get off track, Meem. I was simply asking you to clarify your position on a couple of things you said.
For example, in response to this question
QUOTE

And more to the point, Id like to ask how you would go about testing for something that youve already said has no evidence of its existence? 

You answered
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

And more to the point, Id like to ask how you would go about testing for something that youve already said has no evidence of its existence? 

You answered
Like another dimension, universe, string ... theory?
But youve said this:
QUOTE

Spirituality is a process of discovery that has rules which are followed in order to preserve its integrity. In a moral system.

You see Meem, the problem with your comparison is that string theory isnt trying to dictate morality.

So how do you apply the scientific method to something which you have no evidence for its existence? Because it seems that your spirituality wants to dictate morality without any evidence of its "truthiness".

On another note,
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Spirituality is a process of discovery that has rules which are followed in order to preserve its integrity. In a moral system.

You see Meem, the problem with your comparison is that string theory isnt trying to dictate morality.

So how do you apply the scientific method to something which you have no evidence for its existence? Because it seems that your spirituality wants to dictate morality without any evidence of its "truthiness".

On another note,
Reality, 90% of the world population believes in God.

QUOTE
The vast majority of science supports climate change .... and if science is so eff-in pure and exact ... how come there are idiots out there denying the data ...

Satan?
occidental
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 19 2009, 10:55 PM)
I posted the South Park vid because it demonstrates what you are making yourself look like.

I posted the "play him off cat" video because I thought Meem was leaving like a drama queen.

I just want to be honest.
buttershug
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 20 2009, 03:07 AM)
The fact that the Earth is warming is not in dispute by anyone. What IS in dispute are the causes, extent, and effects of Global Warming.

Plus idiots can abuse science.
But that does not make them scientists.

In fact I thought most of the climate change denialists in the States are on the right and belong to the people that Meem is supporting.

On here anyways the person that speaks most against climate change believes in God.
Grasshopper
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 20 2009, 03:21 AM)
Dude, I'm sorry, I fail at sarcasm sad.gif

After I did that I was looking at some of your other posts, and I started to wonder sad.gif

I will give you a positive as soon as I am able.

lol It's okay man. I will pos rep you too.


Physorg, always good for a laugh! laugh.gif
Michael J
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 19 2009, 04:18 PM)
I dropped out because, I thought the reason for living was to run around with the group, being cool, funny, and wreck-less was cool. ... bla bla bla ... I'm a failure.


Now that we got that down, will you cease this nonsense and just stop posting on this forum.
Meem
QUOTE
Wow, way to pull a fake statistic out of your ***. Remember that Buddhists don't believe in god. Hindus believe in plural gods.


Hey .... Ever here of Occam's Razor? entities do not need to be multiplied unnecessarily? Gods become God. Can you follow that? Or are you going to argue about closing speed when a ship doing .7c and another doing .7c saying that they are actually moving at 1.4c?

It's funny how you think my statistic is fake, and it' funny how you told me to pull my head out of my @$$, maybe you should take some of armit's advice, wake-up.
You're young, and you're at a point in your life when you're still learning but where you're still overconfident it what you think you know. You don't anything about a person by just what they say and comparing it to what other people say. If you want to learn something about people you have to watch and listen to them. People often say or claim one thing about themselves or situation, and then do something to contradict what they said. Stop talking so much, and listen a little more, you might learn something about people and yourself in the process.

gallup-international.com/ContentFiles/millennium15.asp


Example of Mob rule. It's all about reputation, not the "real" world.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Wow, way to pull a fake statistic out of your ***. Remember that Buddhists don't believe in god. Hindus believe in plural gods.


Hey .... Ever here of Occam's Razor? entities do not need to be multiplied unnecessarily? Gods become God. Can you follow that? Or are you going to argue about closing speed when a ship doing .7c and another doing .7c saying that they are actually moving at 1.4c?

It's funny how you think my statistic is fake, and it' funny how you told me to pull my head out of my @$$, maybe you should take some of armit's advice, wake-up.
You're young, and you're at a point in your life when you're still learning but where you're still overconfident it what you think you know. You don't anything about a person by just what they say and comparing it to what other people say. If you want to learn something about people you have to watch and listen to them. People often say or claim one thing about themselves or situation, and then do something to contradict what they said. Stop talking so much, and listen a little more, you might learn something about people and yourself in the process.

gallup-international.com/ContentFiles/millennium15.asp


Example of Mob rule. It's all about reputation, not the "real" world.

QUOTE (flyingbuttressman @ Jun 20 2009, 03:21 AM)
Dude, I'm sorry, I fail at sarcasm
After I did that I was looking at some of your other posts, and I started to wonder
I will give you a positive as soon as I am able.


lol It's okay man. I will pos rep you too.
Physorg, always good for a laugh! 


QUOTE
And why do you feel the need to resort to namecalling?

Do you really want to go there? Don't start what you can't finish.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And why do you feel the need to resort to namecalling?

Do you really want to go there? Don't start what you can't finish.

You see Meem, the problem with your comparison is that string theory isnt trying to dictate morality.


Do men dictate science, or does science dictate men? You have no clue, because you think you dictate science, the laws of science are not something that didn't exist till you realized what they were (magpies-ish). They have always been there. So, if you fail to see valid comparisons, it's not my fault. What is moral should dictate men. Men that try to dictate what is moral are either -expedient or amoral- you should look those terms up, from a sociologists stand-point.

To help you out in your search, look for Peck and Havighurst "character development list. amoral, expedient, conformist, irrational conscientious, rational altruist. This is from a book, so if you want to find it on the world wide web for proof, you're going to have to look for yourself.

QUOTE
QUOTE 
The vast majority of science supports climate change .... and if science is so eff-in pure and exact ... how come there are idiots out there denying the data ... 

Satan? 


Who's the cracked egg that said that? I sure didn't.
Meem
bayridgetalk.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=13523

QUOTE
May 31, 2009 — After the flap over the “missing link” Ida last week , paleontologist Christopher Beard warned about how such stunts damage scientific credibility. “The only thing we have going for us that Hollywood and politicians don’t is objectivity,” he told Science magazine.1 Can the public trust the objectivity of scientists as a class? Do they get more credibility points than other groups of professionals? Do the processes of scientific publication warrant a higher level of trust?

A study reported on Science Daily may shake that trust. “In the online, open-access journal PLoS ONE,2 Daniele Fanelli of the University of Edinburgh reports the first meta-analysis of surveys questioning scientists about their misbehaviours” (a meta-analysis is a study of the studies). “The results suggest that altering or making up data is more frequent than previously estimated and might be particularly high in medical research,” the article began. It says that the well-publicized cases of fraud “could be just the tip of the iceberg, because fraud and other more subtle forms of misconduct might be relatively frequent.”
Fanelli began her report with these unsettling words:

This pristine image of science is based on the theory that the scientific community is guided by norms including disinterestedness and organized scepticism, which are incompatible with misconduct. Increasing evidence, however, suggests that known frauds are just the “tip of the iceberg”, and that many cases are never discovered.


Much more on this article above.


sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090528203745.htm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
May 31, 2009 — After the flap over the “missing link” Ida last week , paleontologist Christopher Beard warned about how such stunts damage scientific credibility. “The only thing we have going for us that Hollywood and politicians don’t is objectivity,” he told Science magazine.1 Can the public trust the objectivity of scientists as a class? Do they get more credibility points than other groups of professionals? Do the processes of scientific publication warrant a higher level of trust?

A study reported on Science Daily may shake that trust. “In the online, open-access journal PLoS ONE,2 Daniele Fanelli of the University of Edinburgh reports the first meta-analysis of surveys questioning scientists about their misbehaviours” (a meta-analysis is a study of the studies). “The results suggest that altering or making up data is more frequent than previously estimated and might be particularly high in medical research,” the article began. It says that the well-publicized cases of fraud “could be just the tip of the iceberg, because fraud and other more subtle forms of misconduct might be relatively frequent.”
Fanelli began her report with these unsettling words:

This pristine image of science is based on the theory that the scientific community is guided by norms including disinterestedness and organized scepticism, which are incompatible with misconduct. Increasing evidence, however, suggests that known frauds are just the “tip of the iceberg”, and that many cases are never discovered.


Much more on this article above.


sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090528203745.htm


Many Scientists Fabricate And Falsify Research?
ScienceDaily (May 29, 2009) —

It's a long-standing and crucial question that, as yet, remains unanswered: just how common is scientific misconduct? In the online, open-access journal PLoS ONE, Daniele Fanelli of the University of Edinburgh reports the first meta-analysis of surveys questioning scientists about their misbehaviours. The results suggest that altering or making up data is more frequent than previously estimated and might be particularly high in medical research.

ReferenceRecent scandals like Hwang Woo-Suk's fake stem-cell lines or Jon Sudbø's made-up cancer trials have dramatically demonstrated that fraudulent research is very easy to publish, even in the most prestigious journals. The media and many scientists tend to explain away these cases as pathological deviations of a few "bad apples." Common sense and increasing evidence, however, suggest that these could be just the tip of the iceberg, because fraud and other more subtle forms of misconduct might be relatively frequent. The actual numbers, however, are a matter of great controversy.

Estimates based on indirect data (for example, official retractions of scientific papers or random data audits) have produced largely discrepant results. Therefore, many researchers have asked scientists directly, with surveys conducted in different countries and disciplines. However, they have used different methods and asked different questions, so their results also appeared inconclusive.

To make these surveys comparable, the meta-analysis focused on behaviours that actually distort scientific knowledge (excluding data on plagiarism and other kinds of malpractice) and extracted the frequency of scientists who recalled having committed a particular behaviour at least once, or who knew a colleague who did.

On average, across the surveys, around 2% of scientists admitted they had "fabricated" (made up), "falsified" or "altered" data to "improve the outcome" at least once, and up to 34% admitted to other questionable research practices including "failing to present data that contradict one's own previous research" and "dropping observations or data points from analyses based on a gut feeling that they were inaccurate."

In surveys that asked about the behaviour of colleagues, 14% knew someone who had fabricated, falsified or altered data, and up to 72% knew someone who had committed other questionable research practices.


Science is so much more perfect and moral than religion, hypocritical.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 20 2009, 04:53 PM)

Do you really want to go there?  Don't start what you can't finish.

YES TAKE IT THERE. I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU. TAKE IT THERE. I WANT TO GO TO THERE. GO GO GO.



QUOTE (Meem+Jun 20 2009, 01:36 AM)
<self serving bs snipped>
The vast majority of science supports climate change .... and if science is so eff-in pure and exact ... how come there are idiots out there denying the data ... what a hypocritical joke.


QUOTE
Who's the cracked egg that said that? I sure didn't.


Gee meem, looks like youre the cracked egg that said that. So not only do you post empty creationist rhetoric, not only do you post nonsense that you cant defend, not only do you continually engage in namecalling and unwarranted insults, but you also lie about what you post.

Youre a pathetic joke. And a liar.
buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 20 2009, 01:36 AM)
The vast majority of science supports climate change .... and if science is so eff-in pure and exact ... how come there are idiots out there denying the data ... what a hypocritical joke.

You didn't say this?
It's in one of your posts.
And it's the spritual God types that are mostly denying the science data.


And scientists aren't science.

Dishonest people who become scientists are eventually outed.
Dishonest people who start religions inspire devoted followers.
occidental
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 20 2009, 05:03 PM)
bayridgetalk.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=13523



Much more on this article above.


sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090528203745.htm



Science is so much more perfect and moral than religion, hypocritical.

Thats right meem, sometimes people are dishonest. As a counter argument should we get into the sick practices and justifications used by religious perverts?

Scientific integrity is maintained by the process of the scientific method. Whats the method religion uses to maintain its integrity?

EDIT- Given the number of choir boys who took it up the a** in the name of god, id say secrecy is how religion maintains its appearance of integrity. Kind of like your sacred knowledge,Meem.
buttershug
QUOTE (Meem+Jun 20 2009, 04:53 PM)

Hey .... Ever here of Occam's Razor? entities do not need to be multiplied unnecessarily? Gods become God. Can you follow that?

Carry it further.

Call whatever created God, "Factor x".

so;
Factor X Created God, and God created Creation.

apply Occam's razor.

Factor X created Creation.

Can YOU follow that?
Meem
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 20 2009, 12:18 PM)
Carry it further.

Call whatever created God, "Factor x".

so;
Factor X Created God, and God created Creation.

apply Occam's razor.

Factor X created Creation.

Can YOU follow that?

that just proves you don't understand what the concept states ....


carry it ... multiply it further, unnessacerily. ??? Clearly you don't know what that means.

bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qn7f check it out.


QUOTE
Scientific integrity is maintained by the process of the scientific method. Whats the method religion uses to maintain its integrity?

EDIT- Given the number of choir boys who took it up the a** in the name of god, id say secrecy is how religion maintains its appearance of integrity. Kind of like your sacred knowledge,Meem.


Underlined, blatant-coercive-intolerance. Name calling?
It uses man's method, just like science. And if men created the method, the method is fallible, by the men that use it ... just like ANY freaking religion you *****. You think you're so impervious to error, and you say your method is pure, then why are you acting the way you are? There must be a very civil and ethical manner that your study of science has revealed to you, but you fail to champion it by continuing to rely on childish remarks. If I give you but only a small taste of your own medicine suddenly, it is I who am guilty of what you have been doing all along. You're an actor, not a director. You need to get a better script.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Scientific integrity is maintained by the process of the scientific method. Whats the method religion uses to maintain its integrity?

EDIT- Given the number of choir boys who took it up the a** in the name of god, id say secrecy is how religion maintains its appearance of integrity. Kind of like your sacred knowledge,Meem.


Underlined, blatant-coercive-intolerance. Name calling?
It uses man's method, just like science. And if men created the method, the method is fallible, by the men that use it ... just like ANY freaking religion you *****. You think you're so impervious to error, and you say your method is pure, then why are you acting the way you are? There must be a very civil and ethical manner that your study of science has revealed to you, but you fail to champion it by continuing to rely on childish remarks. If I give you but only a small taste of your own medicine suddenly, it is I who am guilty of what you have been doing all along. You're an actor, not a director. You need to get a better script.

Scientific integrity is maintained by the process of the scientific method.


Men are the variable in any system they use. It doesn't matter what that system is, science, religion, farting, fishing, or this web-site. Do you have integrity, are you a perfect condition? This is that particular example of your perfection I would point out, 5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.

Integrity
–noun
1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

Perfect
–adjective
1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.
5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers.
7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow.
8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers.
9. expert; accomplished; proficient.
10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.

QUOTE
Michael J Posted on Today at 11:38 AM
  QUOTE (Meem @ Jun 19 2009, 04:18 PM)
I dropped out because, I thought the reason for living was to run around with the group, being cool, funny, and wreck-less was cool. ... bla bla bla ... I'm a failure.

Now that we got that down, will you cease this nonsense and just stop posting on this forum


And then ... in quoting me, he changes what I said to say what he wants it to, more of the same crap that is allowed to carry on here. That's what you call the integrity of science, changing the data to fit your desired outcome? How very scientifically ethic of you. People here are more concerned with their reputation of the mob rule. A bunch of insulting post teen boys trying to prove they are men, mentored by their counterparts who never figured out how to grow up.
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