http://www.physorg.com/news79108630.html
A battery powerd car will take $86 in electricity to go coast to coast. Much less than fuel cell hybrids, diesel or gasoline engines.
Reference?
Batteries have low cycle life, many battery chemistries are environmentally unfriendly, and battery-powered vehicles cannot match the range and performance of their Hydrogen-fueled counterparts (ICE, Fuel Cell vehicles). You need to do some more reading on the topic. The major automakers of the World have all but given up on (strictly) battery-powered vehicle technology. Get a clue already. They have already.
i) supercapacitors, perhaps combined with exchangeable (or not) hightech battery packs, MIGHT POTENTIALLY eliminate concerns with pure EV range.
ii) TZero in LA is only one of several interesting makers of electrics. 0 to 60 mph in 4.1 seconds.
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_html_home.htm
Or google Feelgood Cars, Toronto.
iii) The fact that "The major automakers of the World have all but given up on (strictly) battery-powered vehicle technology" only proves to me that all-battery cars likely DO make rational economic sense, given their recent track records. eg. who was it got stuck building huge SUV's when the gas price jumped, lost $9 billion last yr? Ah, Ford.
ii) TZero in LA is only one of several interesting makers of electrics. 0 to 60 mph in 4.1 seconds.
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_html_home.htm
Or google Feelgood Cars, Toronto.
iii) The fact that "The major automakers of the World have all but given up on (strictly) battery-powered vehicle technology" only proves to me that all-battery cars likely DO make rational economic sense, given their recent track records. eg. who was it got stuck building huge SUV's when the gas price jumped, lost $9 billion last yr? Ah, Ford.
Remember, however, that the motivation for using hybrid, electric, hydrogen, etc. vehicles is to reduce dependance on foreign oil and to reduce our CO2 emissions. Electric cars only move the problem back to the source of power, which for now, and probably for the next decade or so (unless there are major incentives), the main sources of power are from fossil fuels.
If fusion or other major alternative power sources are utilized to provide most of our electricity, perhaps it will become beneficial to use electrics. Of course the same problem applies to hydrogen powered cars because they require electricity to form the hydrogen to fuel them. Therefore, while producing enviromentally friendly cars is great it won't really accomplish its goals unless our power sources are overhauled.
If fusion or other major alternative power sources are utilized to provide most of our electricity, perhaps it will become beneficial to use electrics. Of course the same problem applies to hydrogen powered cars because they require electricity to form the hydrogen to fuel them. Therefore, while producing enviromentally friendly cars is great it won't really accomplish its goals unless our power sources are overhauled.
QUOTE (Shemi+Oct 5 2006, 06:42 AM)
Remember, however, that the motivation for using hybrid, electric, hydrogen, etc. vehicles is to reduce dependance on foreign oil and to reduce our CO2 emissions. Electric cars only move the problem back to the source of power, which for now, and probably for the next decade or so (unless there are major incentives), the main sources of power are from fossil fuels.
If fusion or other major alternative power sources are utilized to provide most of our electricity, perhaps it will become beneficial to use electrics. Of course the same problem applies to hydrogen powered cars because they require electricity to form the hydrogen to fuel them. Therefore, while producing enviromentally friendly cars is great it won't really accomplish its goals unless our power sources are overhauled.
Please go to altairnano.com and check out their lithium electrode lithium battery. It solves almost all the problems typical batteries exhibit, recharges in a few minutes, and can be recharged tens of thousands of times.
If fusion or other major alternative power sources are utilized to provide most of our electricity, perhaps it will become beneficial to use electrics. Of course the same problem applies to hydrogen powered cars because they require electricity to form the hydrogen to fuel them. Therefore, while producing enviromentally friendly cars is great it won't really accomplish its goals unless our power sources are overhauled.
Please go to altairnano.com and check out their lithium electrode lithium battery. It solves almost all the problems typical batteries exhibit, recharges in a few minutes, and can be recharged tens of thousands of times.
QUOTE (Shemi+Oct 5 2006, 12:42 PM)
Remember, however, that the motivation for using hybrid, electric, hydrogen, etc. vehicles is to reduce dependance on foreign oil and to reduce our CO2 emissions. Electric cars only move the problem back to the source of power, which for now, and probably for the next decade or so (unless there are major incentives), the main sources of power are from fossil fuels.
If fusion or other major alternative power sources are utilized to provide most of our electricity, perhaps it will become beneficial to use electrics. Of course the same problem applies to hydrogen powered cars because they require electricity to form the hydrogen to fuel them. Therefore, while producing enviromentally friendly cars is great it won't really accomplish its goals unless our power sources are overhauled.
Actually, it can help a great deal even if all electricity comes from eg. coal etc. Central power stations like IGCC can produce electricity from fuels at up to 50% efficiency, compared to auto engines running at perhaps 15% average. Even accounting a 5% transmission loss and 15% auto electrical system loss, you are ahead some.
If the electricity comes from a non-polluting source like hydro, wind, nuclear, solar, then much better.
And it all is domestically produced, eliminating the stupid risks of dependence on imported oil (except for some possible use of imported LNG -> electricity, a really dumb idea.)
If fusion or other major alternative power sources are utilized to provide most of our electricity, perhaps it will become beneficial to use electrics. Of course the same problem applies to hydrogen powered cars because they require electricity to form the hydrogen to fuel them. Therefore, while producing enviromentally friendly cars is great it won't really accomplish its goals unless our power sources are overhauled.
Actually, it can help a great deal even if all electricity comes from eg. coal etc. Central power stations like IGCC can produce electricity from fuels at up to 50% efficiency, compared to auto engines running at perhaps 15% average. Even accounting a 5% transmission loss and 15% auto electrical system loss, you are ahead some.
If the electricity comes from a non-polluting source like hydro, wind, nuclear, solar, then much better.
And it all is domestically produced, eliminating the stupid risks of dependence on imported oil (except for some possible use of imported LNG -> electricity, a really dumb idea.)
On fossil fuels:
We know we're not limited to petroleum and natural gas. Most of you guys and gals are scientists/engineers or technologists and know the world, mostly the U.S., has about 500 years left of various types of coal at current rates of use, for generating the electricity for all-battery automobiles. Look at the Direct Carbon Fuel Cells being developed by Lawrence Livermore and SRI. Because of the geometry of the D-C reactor, there would be some CO2 product, but it can be sequestered right from the F-C reactor - no exhaust to the atmosphere. Aside from pebble-bed nuclear electricity, DCFC electricity from coal as carbon black, should be the cheapest, most plentiful, and least polluting ever, from non-renewables. With an estimated 70-80% efficiency, the 500 years of coal remaining should be bumped to about 700 years.
T.F.
We know we're not limited to petroleum and natural gas. Most of you guys and gals are scientists/engineers or technologists and know the world, mostly the U.S., has about 500 years left of various types of coal at current rates of use, for generating the electricity for all-battery automobiles. Look at the Direct Carbon Fuel Cells being developed by Lawrence Livermore and SRI. Because of the geometry of the D-C reactor, there would be some CO2 product, but it can be sequestered right from the F-C reactor - no exhaust to the atmosphere. Aside from pebble-bed nuclear electricity, DCFC electricity from coal as carbon black, should be the cheapest, most plentiful, and least polluting ever, from non-renewables. With an estimated 70-80% efficiency, the 500 years of coal remaining should be bumped to about 700 years.
T.F.
hello I think that you guys should build a car that has to run on a very powerfully magnets and can be turned from electricity for higher speeds such as on the highway and can also be turned to solar power or even if you have to go even faster to go from all of those to petroleum but only if you have to because the point of this car is to not polute the world I think this car should be called the Zorgain because you gain the respect from environmentalists and instead of polluting you can give back to the environment.
QUOTE (global engineer+Oct 4 2006, 06:26 AM)
Batteries have low cycle life, many battery chemistries are environmentally unfriendly, and battery-powered vehicles cannot match the range and performance of their Hydrogen-fueled counterparts (ICE, Fuel Cell vehicles). You need to do some more reading on the topic. The major automakers of the World have all but given up on (strictly) battery-powered vehicle technology. Get a clue already. They have already.
Get a clue yourself. Hydrogen is an absurdly bulky and expensive fuel, and some hydrogen production methods are environmentally unfriendly.
Batteries can have a long cycle life - the NiMH batteries in the Prius are warranted for 10 yr 150,000 miles, some have already exceeded that.
The LiIon batteries in the Tesla Roadster are expected to last at least 100,000 miles - and still have 80% capacity! Newer batteries now being introduced to the market have even better cycle life characteristics. (look up A123, Altair Nano, Valence Technology, Saft)
As for comparing range and performance, let's compare the BMW "Hydrogen 7" with the Tesla Roadster. The BMW has a 30 gallon liquid hydrogen tank, and a range of 120 miles on H2 - equal range to the GM EV1 and somewhat less than the Toyota RAV4 EV. The Tesla has a 900 lb 50 Kwhr battery pack and a range of 250 miles per charge - more than TWICE the Hydrogen 7 range! Performance, BMW 0-60 mph in 9.5 seconds, Tesla 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.
As for operating costs, the Tesla Roadster electricity cost is about 1 cent per mile. Liquid hydrogen costs, per "gallon of gas equivalent", twice that of gasoline, so the BMW Hydrogen 7 costs about 60 cents per mile.
The "major auto makers" really don't want to change, especially with oil company people on their board of directors. With the hydrogen hype, they hope to delay change indefinitely and keep churning out those gas guzzling SUVs.
Get a clue yourself. Hydrogen is an absurdly bulky and expensive fuel, and some hydrogen production methods are environmentally unfriendly.
Batteries can have a long cycle life - the NiMH batteries in the Prius are warranted for 10 yr 150,000 miles, some have already exceeded that.
The LiIon batteries in the Tesla Roadster are expected to last at least 100,000 miles - and still have 80% capacity! Newer batteries now being introduced to the market have even better cycle life characteristics. (look up A123, Altair Nano, Valence Technology, Saft)
As for comparing range and performance, let's compare the BMW "Hydrogen 7" with the Tesla Roadster. The BMW has a 30 gallon liquid hydrogen tank, and a range of 120 miles on H2 - equal range to the GM EV1 and somewhat less than the Toyota RAV4 EV. The Tesla has a 900 lb 50 Kwhr battery pack and a range of 250 miles per charge - more than TWICE the Hydrogen 7 range! Performance, BMW 0-60 mph in 9.5 seconds, Tesla 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.
As for operating costs, the Tesla Roadster electricity cost is about 1 cent per mile. Liquid hydrogen costs, per "gallon of gas equivalent", twice that of gasoline, so the BMW Hydrogen 7 costs about 60 cents per mile.
The "major auto makers" really don't want to change, especially with oil company people on their board of directors. With the hydrogen hype, they hope to delay change indefinitely and keep churning out those gas guzzling SUVs.
Yeah?
Well I priced the Tesla Roadster on their Web Site and the two seater goes for $100,000.
Not likely to make much of a dent in oil usage at THAT price.
Arthur
Well I priced the Tesla Roadster on their Web Site and the two seater goes for $100,000.
Not likely to make much of a dent in oil usage at THAT price.
Arthur
If the battery has low cycle life, then it is harmful with air. But if the battery comes from wind and sun , it will create a good environment. 
QUOTE (UncleMatt+Oct 5 2006, 08:20 AM)
Please go to altairnano.com and check out their lithium electrode lithium battery. It solves almost all the problems typical batteries exhibit, recharges in a few minutes, and can be recharged tens of thousands of times.
LIES.
They couldn't possibly have tested a battery's ability to charge tens of thousands of times.
QUOTE
Please go to altairnano.com and check out their lithium electrode lithium battery. It solves almost all the problems typical batteries exhibit, recharges in a few minutes, and can be recharged tens of thousands of times.
LIES.
They couldn't possibly have tested a battery's ability to charge tens of thousands of times.
Now this thread I can identify with.
>Electric cars only move the problem back to the source of power,
That was a lie started by GM.
Just like the one that says
"People don't want an all electric car that you have to plug in every night"
That one is pure BS.
I for one only drive 4 miles one way, A crappy solar cell could recharge that while I am at work, and the 4 mile trip home would cost what? 12 cents.
You can't tell me that I can generate my own electricity in the car from H cheaper than an electric company can.
>Electric cars only move the problem back to the source of power,
That was a lie started by GM.
Just like the one that says
"People don't want an all electric car that you have to plug in every night"
That one is pure BS.
I for one only drive 4 miles one way, A crappy solar cell could recharge that while I am at work, and the 4 mile trip home would cost what? 12 cents.
You can't tell me that I can generate my own electricity in the car from H cheaper than an electric company can.
I see many interesting things coming in electric cars in the near future.
Some of the college kids I deal with are seriously enthusiastic.
Lighter materials, better electronics, better batteries, charge on the fly, charging systems and many other ideas are happening right now.
I saw the plans for a bolt on electric device that replaces a bell housing on a Ranger truck that is motor, charger and starter.
I know of a scale model car that is now on its 47th day of nonstop running at a scale 50 mph. Recharges on the fly at about 7 miles on a charger that would be 110 feet long.
Pick a problem and solve a problem...or just listen to everyone whine about how they won't even start due to a problem.
The biggest problem I see is that cars are still cheaper and easier.
This will prevent acceptance and development of better and cheaper electric technology.
Bruce
Some of the college kids I deal with are seriously enthusiastic.
Lighter materials, better electronics, better batteries, charge on the fly, charging systems and many other ideas are happening right now.
I saw the plans for a bolt on electric device that replaces a bell housing on a Ranger truck that is motor, charger and starter.
I know of a scale model car that is now on its 47th day of nonstop running at a scale 50 mph. Recharges on the fly at about 7 miles on a charger that would be 110 feet long.
Pick a problem and solve a problem...or just listen to everyone whine about how they won't even start due to a problem.
The biggest problem I see is that cars are still cheaper and easier.
This will prevent acceptance and development of better and cheaper electric technology.
Bruce
Current batteries have limited or no ability to change the mechanism by which power is generated by-said-source. Fuel cells offer many options as where the power comes from. Batteries have a place but in time will go the way of the steam engine. Interesting, dirty, but not very efficient.
What we need is better public transport, perhaps with a touch of luxury to make people enjoy it more, and enough space inside it so that you can relax instead of rubbing shoulders. And as someone wrote electricity and/or magnetism would work for it. Get the personal oil and gas burners of the roads as soon as possible. We will find new solutions :)
Yes but how much will these bat operated cars cost,,,,
The T-Zero looks and sounds like a nifty car.
The only problem I see is with a limited 100 mile I could not make it to work and back home every day on a single charge.
That may change with the lithium Ion battery though.
MY WISH LIST
Add a small lightweight gasoline generator so I could charge the thing efficiently while I am @ work
A performance selector so I could make the car more efficient for driving back and forth to work and with a flick of the switch blow the doors off of other cars when in the mood.
Maybe even computer controlled acceleration tuning through a USB or WiFi connection.
I am still waiting for the ZPE powered car.
ZPE Definition Zero Point Energy
Alternative Definition B.S. designed to drain trusting investors of their hard earned cash. Mark Goldes claims to have a working prototype and room temperature superconductors 'Ultra-conductors' as he calls them. Good Luck with that.
http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/prototype.html
The only problem I see is with a limited 100 mile I could not make it to work and back home every day on a single charge.
That may change with the lithium Ion battery though.
MY WISH LIST
Add a small lightweight gasoline generator so I could charge the thing efficiently while I am @ work
A performance selector so I could make the car more efficient for driving back and forth to work and with a flick of the switch blow the doors off of other cars when in the mood.
Maybe even computer controlled acceleration tuning through a USB or WiFi connection.
I am still waiting for the ZPE powered car.
ZPE Definition Zero Point Energy
Alternative Definition B.S. designed to drain trusting investors of their hard earned cash. Mark Goldes claims to have a working prototype and room temperature superconductors 'Ultra-conductors' as he calls them. Good Luck with that.
http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/prototype.html
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